ML061790625

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OI Interview Transcript of Witness
ML061790625
Person / Time
Site: Salem, Hope Creek  PSEG icon.png
Issue date: 01/27/2004
From:
NRC/OI
To:
References
1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194
Download: ML061790625 (64)
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Text

I UNITED STATES OF AMERICA t 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +

4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 ------------------------------- x 7 IN THE MATTER OF: Docket No.

8 INTERVIEW OF: 1-2003-OSIF 9

10 (CLOSED) 1i --- -------------------------------- x 12 Tuesday, January 27, 2004 13 14 Telephonic Conference 15 16 i7 18 The above-entitled interview was conducted 19 at 2:25 p.m.

20 BEFORE:

21 Special Agent EILEEN NEFF 22 23 ALSO PRESENT:

24 Sr. Project Engineer SCOTT BARBER 2 V

)

Infornrgio in this record was deleted inaccorda ce with the.Freedom of information Act, exeml inn "ICý - - NEAL R. GROSS FOIA* - COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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P 2

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D- I -N-G-S 2 2:25 p.m.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On the record.

4 Today's date is January 27, 2004. The time is

.5 approximately 2:2 5 p.m. Speaking is Special Agent 6 Eileen Neff, US NRC Region 1, Office of 7 Investigations. Also present is Sr. Project Engineer 8 Scott Barber from Region 1 DRP. The location of this 9 interview is Region 1, Office of Investigations. It's 10 a telephonic interview in that a telephone call was 11 placed to area code IM 12 The subject of the interview is the safety 13 conscious work environment at Salem and Hope Creek.

14 In addition to that will be some technical point.-

S15 -that -this, is --a fol-low-up--interview t--.--- -- -. - .

16 interview conducted yesterday, January 26 in whic 17 reported some technical concerns. This is 18 a follow-up to that and incorporates both the safety 19 conscious work environment. and those issues. Ar t?..-

20 point what I'd like to do, is have.yo*-:

21 state your name'and spell your last name please for 22 the record.

23 24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Would you please NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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3 1 raise your right hand for me?

2 mIt's raised.

3 WHEREUPON, 4

5 was called for examination by Special.Agent, having 6 been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 7 follows:

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Let's have 9 identifying information for you. A date of birth and 10 a Social Security number.

ii 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: SSN.

13 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And your home 3:5 address.

17

.18.' SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you provided a 19 number there at that residence. It's 20 Is that- accurate?.

21 i -* Yes, it is.

22 -SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Now for your 23 background, your education please. Can you summarize 24 your education?

25 Ngh school and somi' NEAL R..GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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4 1

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And when did you 3 graduate college?

4 I didn't graduate

~L %mow 5 college.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Some college and high 7 school. What year was high school then?

8 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And your work 10 history, when did you start working?

12 13' SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In what capacity?

14 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:j 16 Right.

17 18 *SPECIAL*AGENT. NEFF:, A *=_=.. ..

19 Then where did you go from there

  • 20 t.

21 22 23 I

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So at what point did 25 you start inn 2*~

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5 1 time frame.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Around 3 Yesterday you indicated that went until roughly mid 4

I- -- I 5 That's correct.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What were the 7 positions that you held in in'maintenance 8 then?

9 10 11 _____________W 12 I _________________________

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you went from 14 15 16 _That's correct.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: August of

__ That's correct.

18

19. SPECIAL-AGENT NEFF: In your position at 20 PSEG, can you explain which units that dealt with?

21 22 23 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In that position and 25 title, were your duties the same from August of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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6 1 until you left in November of 2 MNo.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What are the changes 4 as you go through this?

5 CElm 6

7 8

9 B

10 r

=

_f 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

12 SThat's correct.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I think you gave me 14 a spelling on that I believe. -

15 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Single T. That cook 17 you through what period then?

18 I-'

19 20 ~1 1-~-

4 Q

21 22 EU 23 -SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: so no longer held r.

24 jointly, between the two of you. It was split. You 25 were sited for Hope-Creek and he took Salem at that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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. i 7

1 point.

2 Correct. It was assigned 3 to us.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did it work that way 5 in actuality? Were you working Hope Creek issues and 6 was working Salem issues or was that just in 7 title?

8 In actuality, it worked 9 that way.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And it remained. You 11 said that was through the reorganization under 12 I' know that started roughly in April of 13 2003.

14 inIUBWIRight..

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When did it affect 16 your position though specifically?

17

  • Earlier than that.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At what point then?

19 In 2003?

20 .. )W In 2003, yes. That's 21 correct.. At some point in time in early 2003.

22 SPECIAL AGENT1NEFF,: Early.

23 I Under the. -

24 the duties were 25 segregated. Prior to that, we were supposed to have I

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I 8

1 shared them.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So this is a change 3 in early 2003.

4 Yes.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And it remained the 6 same until yo 7 *. That is correct.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: One thing we didn't 9., get too much into yesterday during the interview was 10 your reasons for leaving i 11 The reorganization.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The'reorganization.

13 That's correct.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that a position 15 that was eliminated?

16 No. I was not selected:

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Then at that point, 18 you transferred up'tagain.

19 a .That's.correct.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How long have you 21 been working.,a now?

22 low Ever since I left.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So immediately from 24 -until the present.

- -M, 25 That's correct.

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9 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Your title there?

2 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

5 Yes.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 4 , is there 7 anything that I didn't cover in that? Is there any 8 period of time that I missed or, anything you would 9 like to add at this point regarding your work 10 experience?

11

  • I think you've covered it 12 all.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Let's get into 14 some of these issues that we talked about yesterday.

15 What I would like to start with would be the issue of 16 the work packages closing out without the work do:ie.

17 What you were indicating was that this was being done

18. more or less Since September 2003 time frame and you 19 attributed it to.ýa push by management which is coming 20* 1fro;;" through the superintendents to the 21 first line supervisors indicating that they wanted 22 work orders closed. They just wanted the backlog 23 closed out.

24 Correct.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that the packages NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRI3ERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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10 1 would then be closed without the work being done.

2 This affected primarily what we were talking which was 3 relief valves. You said that would affect both safety 4 and non-safety systems.

5 Correct.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What we were asking 7 you to do was to think about it. Can you give us some 8 examples of the systems that were affected by this?

9 F Right off the top of my 10 head, I cannot.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

12 But you can validate it 13 through a number of people.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Now let me go ahead.

15 For the record, we'll identify this and if you want to 16 add anything to it. One person that you named for me 17 was who's currently a first line 18 supervisor I believe on the Salem side.

19 Correct.

20 SPECIALAGENT NEFF: And you had indicated 21 that documented that the superintendent there who 22~~~- wol...*.

23 W~Right.ý 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He told to close' 25 it out on more than one occasion.

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11 1 *i Correct.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And has claimed, 3 I don't know what at least that

)

.documented, 4 was forced to close paperwork and document the work 5' orders as completed when they are actually not.

6 A ."a, 81M_,i*1 Corre'ct.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The time frame for 8 that is September 2003 forward.

9 Yes, to* my knowledge 10 that's the approximate time frame.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: My understanding was 12 that you -- that the general push for this was coming 13 from -- Under the reorganization, there's pressure on 14 senior manzagement there- to eliminate the backlog of 15 the work orders and they have a certain time period.

16 You thought maybe eight months to .a year.

17 SRight p7 ,.,.-'*

-SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 'That they want to see 18

'19 this backlog~eliminated. Therefore the push is coming 20 on. It's a bean count more or less to get them closed 21 out'and to do so in a certain time frame. Associated 22 with that, you had said was a threat that these senior 23 managers would not have their jobs. Therefore the 24 superintendents would not 'have their jobs and from 25 there the superintendents in turn had been pressuring NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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12 1 or in some way threatening first line supervisors with 2 their own jobs for not closing out the backlog. Is 3 that accurate?

4 Correct. Yes, it is.

5 That is not the-only thing. That's one of them. The 6 threat is for the organization to get turned around, 7 to move the corrective maintenance backlog, reduce the 8 overtime, reduce the lost time, reduce the safety 9 issues, reduce the human performance issues. It's 10 across the board.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

12 .You'll see that the 13 record reflects just in the packages alone.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about in these 15 other areas that they are trying to make the 16 reductions and the improvrements? Are you seeing 17 safety concerns shown in the other areas that you see 18 in this work order area? In the work packages I 19 should say?

20 -I don't have a lot of 21 information on them.: So I couldn't give you an honest 22 answer.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, and just so I 24 don't get too far off track. _You had-offered to me 25 Jý Ithe first line supervisor who I should NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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13 1 talk to. laws 2 That's correct.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And also a 4 -. t-- =*- - " T I* *-...

5 Essentially what you were telling me was they're in a 6 position to support your allegation. It's just that 7 they would expect some sort of protection. I would 8 have to work to gain their trust to talk about this.

9 - That's correct.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the reason for 11 that is what?

12 Q They feel threatened for 13 their jobs. They have brought up these issues before 14 and they are getting pushed and there's nobody there 15 backing them up, telling them it's wrong to close the 16 packages, not to do it and they're afraid. They're 17 afraid that if they don't do it they are going to lose 18 their jobs.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

20 tag How many people do you 21 know in the industry would document in a work package 22 that they were told to falsify the record, close the 23 package that it was completed and the work was done.

24 So they are doing their jobs the best they can.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You are saying that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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14

.1 in itself is putting *. and anybody who does 2 that like( in a tenuous position at best fo-- to 3 document that.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What I'm doing here 6 is having you report what you reported to me and I 7 can't put words in your mouth..

8 1 understand that.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I want to capture 10 what you said accurately.

11i. I will give you two more 12 bits of information.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

14 who 1 i5 talked to you about yesterday who was the crane valve 16 -- the only one who's authorized to do the testing has

17. left testing will also concur and there's a Hope Creek 18 chief that is aware, of the situation and the 19 ramifications..

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you give me his 21 name?

22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

24 He will concur and also 25 validate those concerns. -1.--

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Withn 2 said it goes one step further I think. He was being 3 told don't write notification that items are not 4 really broken.

5 / That's correct.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In his situation and 7 I think you gave the example of the service water 8 gates and valves.

9Right.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you know anything 11 further about that? About what specifically what went 12 wrong and what he was told not to write up?

13 I don't have all the 14 details. I will tell you that there were valves 15 installed in the past that were not installed 16 correctly and when it came time to operate the valves 17 in a mechanical term they were too black. In other 18 words, you can get'the full stroke of the valves 19 -because the stems are blocked or obstructed by 20 something. These valves Operations accepted even

'21 though they were installed incorrectly and wouldn't 22 operate as designed.

23 When brought up that they 24 were installed wrong and wouldn't operate* and was 25 going to write it up, he was told not to. He had to NEAL R. GROSS /

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16 1 escalate it up to include getting Operations involved 2 and his maintenance chain of command before that they 3 would acknowledge and agreed. I think he even had to 4 get QA involved before they would write the 5 notification and admit that something was wrong which 6 adds to the corrective maintenance backlog.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I see. Anything 8 further on that or you're saying talk directly t 9

i0 I think you shoula talk 11 directly to 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So in terms of 13 the work packages then, the people that we should be 14 talking to would be who we just talked abqut,_

16 and I believe ypo"i 17 gave me someone else.

18 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF 1from Crane 20 Valve..

21. SR.. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Yes.

22 J S. Yes. And I believe he's 23 currently there onsite.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Typically he's in the 25 Midwest, right?

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17

-1 Right. But he travels 2 back and forth like I explained yesterday.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF.: And that's.

5 5 *;!Yes.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: :r 7 Yes. That's correct.

8 SPECIAL'AGENT NEFF: Go ahead. Scott has 9 some questions too now.

10 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: I 11 wanted to just ask you about how you came to know that 12 these people were exposed to this situation where they 13 were told not to write notification for these 14 problems. Could you tell me how you found out about 15 that?

16 The people down there,

17. they still call me. I still call them and I have 18 communication with superintendents, supervisors and 19 some of the chiefs. They relay to me what's going on, 20 how they feel, what's changed. That"s how I know.

21 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: The way this 22 initial communication about these issues, did this

23. start with you onsite so you developed a rapport with 24 these people when you were onsite?

25 - Yes, I had developed a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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18 1 good rapport with these people.

2 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Now what I 3 wanted to ask you about is a little bit more about -

4 And this isn't to -- for these other individuals. Was S there any consideration of either taking these issues 6 to one of three other locations, (1) being QA, (2) 7 being employee concerns, (3) being the NRC?

8 There are other avenues that are open if 9 there are issues at the plant were things are not 10 being done properly. They are normally considered in 11 some sort of step-wise fashion whether it be QA or 12 employee concerns. Then if there's not satisfaction, 13 then contacting the NRC is sometimes considered.

14 There's nothing automatic and it's a very personal 15 decision. I guess let me direct the question first at 16 you. Did you consider raising these issues at the 17 time through any of those channels?

18 I can answer your 19 question on employee concerns. Nobody believes in the 20 employee concerns program there. That's kind of like 21 the HR Department is a revolving door. Typically as 22 soon as somebody hits the door, everybody there knows.

23 There's no satisfaction. 7 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it's a combination 25 of confidentiality and result.

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19 1Correct.

2 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Can I ask?

3 How did you hear that? Is that something that's a 4 widespread belief across the station or do you know 5 people that specifically have taken issues to them and 6 either identity was in some way not protected or they 7 were dissatisfied with the outcome?

8 My opinion i6 that the 9 results were unsatisfactory. Nobody trusted them down 10 there and that was due -from the results as well as 11 confidentiality. I think when you talk to the people 12 down there, you will get-a validation of my opinion 13 with possibly some facts.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did anybody who 15 you've pointed us toward with information regarding 16 the work packages have any of them approached QA, ECP 17 before apart -from what you just said about 18 "*in terms of getting that notification 19 written?

20 'I'know 21 has gone up the chain and tried to report the 22 activitieszto'no avail.

23 . SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But up the chain, 24 where-did, go?'

.25 I thinkl mwent up to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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20 1 *too.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But not outside of 3 the department then?

4 I believe went to 5 either HR or employee concerns..

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

7 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Can I ask a 8 follow-up? When you were exposed to these different 9 circumstances and different issues, did you consider 10 either'going to the employee concerns or NRC?

IO

  • _*_*__*To the NRC.

12 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Can I ask 13 you? I guess what I'wanted to ask is we came to you 14 based on information that we had obtained just through 15 our inquiry.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Actually, no. It 17 worked in reverse.

18 SR.. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: I'm sorry.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It was joint. Right, 20 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You called me 23 yesterday and I had planned on calling you at the same 24 time.

25 Yes, that's correct.

U -J

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21 1 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Excuse me.

2 Thank you for setting the record straight on that. So 3 you in fact were coming to us then.

4 Ye 5 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. -All.

6 right. So you in fact were following through with us.

7 That answers that question. I guess we can move on.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You know along that 9 line though, -Has there been discussion for any 10 of these other people to come into the NRC the same 11 way you did? Are you aware of that? More 12 specifically, are you aware any hesitancy for them to 13 report to us? Reluctance if I contact them, what am 14 I going to meet with?

15 Actually is 16 interested in meeting you and I know some additional 17 people are. There is a reluctance. There is a 18 hesitancy. ýThey are all afraid. They are afraid of 19' confidentiality. They are afraid of repercussions and 20 any job security going on.

21 -SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: All right. We're 22 moving from the work packages issue because we don't 23 have any more specifics to get into at this point.

24 We're going directly to the people that you've pointed 25 out to. Are you there, 1/

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22 1

  • Yes, I am. Once you 2 start it there and you get them to open up, you'll 3 have more than enough information.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Also what you 5 told us yesterday was that the work packages didn't 6 happen during your time there. I think you attributed 7 it to they knew better than to ask you as a 8 superintendent to move the work packages along that 9 way.

10 .-. 7 Right.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That you wouldn't 12 falsify the packages.

13No.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So this wasn't 15 something that you either personally participated in 16 or heard about at that point in time. It's coming to 17 you after.

18 It's coming to me after 19 the fact. Prior to me getting there was a lot of work

20. package discrepancies and a. lack of detail. We 21 cleaned that up and straightened in out. Everything 22 -takes a little time but we did it. Then it reversed 23' itself again.,

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you seeing the 25 same kind of issues from when you got there onsite in NEAL R. GROSS

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23 1 August 2001? Was it closed out improperly without all 2 the work finalized?

3 Correct.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:. So it was closed out 5 for the sake of getting it closed out you're saying.

6 - Yes, ma'am.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What kind of issue is 8 there? I. mean from August 2001, what was driving 9 that?

10 T'I got to say it was just 11 bad practice. It was a pretty big mess. There was a 12 lot of packages that were found to be in that type of 13 condition. The pressure was to get them closed and to 14 get the bean count down, get the work complete. The 15 package closed in what they call -- and get on with 16 the next one.

17 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Let me say 18 something. The packages that you're referring to at 19 the time, let's say you were in the middle of an 20 outage and these packages are staying open and there 21 is. a desire to close them., What I'm trying to 22 understand is what the implications of that would be.

23 Inother words, was the work going to come back in a 24 week or two but yet still part of-the outage or was it 25 in fact the situation where the packages were closed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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24 1 out, the plant was in fact started back up and then 2 the results of the relief valve testing or whatever 3 else was left to do did that come back after the plant 4 had already started up so that if there was problem it 5 was something that could not be corrected with the 6 plant shut down?

7 ' Typically we saw more of 8 it online than outage because outage I ha-9 there for the outage. Sot could do testing and 10 we'd catch everything and get it down and get it built 11 into the package. The hiccup came if you will with 12 more online than outage. So say::would be 13 at the facility for three or four weeks and then leave 14 and go home. During the time when he was not there 15 and work packages got scheduled, work got executed and 16 -- relief sonow'we're changed. When asn't there 17 and the work for the system was done, no as-left 18 testing could done and documented until got back.

19 But by the time ,got back,- the work package had 20 been taken work complete and then T-Coat but relief 21- valves weren't getting tested.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Once it's T-coated, 23 does it-get tested at all?

24 NOW.. I want to say yes. Once 25 it was T-coat even though it was T-coat,( 4 would go NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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25 1 through and find them and then write the notification 2 identifying that there was an issue that the package 3 got closed prior to any as-left supporting 4 documentation. 0 `would write the notification and.

5 then we'd try to catch up the PM or the work order to 6 do the as-left testing.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So he as a contractor 8 had to come in and find the issues himself, basically 9 generating his own work as a contractor.

10 Yes.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was anybody else 12 doing this 'along with him?

13 I'm missing your point on 14 that one.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was anybody else 16 making notifications or identifying that the as-left 17 testing hadn't been completed?

18 I can probably best 19 describe it as hit and miss. -Like at Hope Creek and 20 it began when I -found them. I'd have the chief 21 supervisors go write thenotifications then. Then we 22 would get in and then get the testing done, answer 23 the notification, document it and.I put corrective 24 actions in place. Oneof the corrective actions I put 25 in place was scheduling bundling the work up so that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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26 1 when relief valves were coming out that I would 2 complete the procedure portion and then reschedule the 3 work so that we could do the as-left testing and then 4 close the package so it all married up and followed 5 the methodical and logical order, and nothing got 6 closed without testing completed.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I see.

8 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Let me try 9 and, understand what you were talking about the 10 interaction with the contractor. It sounds like when 11 you're talking about 12 correct?

13 No, he works in the 14 field.

15 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Does he work 16 for Crane Valves?

17 He's employed by Crane 18 Valves. We employ Crane Valves to do our as-left 19 testing.

20 SR. PROJECT ENGINEERýBARBER: Fine. Now 21  :.the presumption I'm making is that he may do testing 22 for other utilities also, right?

23. He may.

24 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER-BARBER: So the fact 25 of the matter is when you're on a 12 week online NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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27 1 maintenance window or 13 week whatever you happen to 2 be on and he does some work during some part of that 3 window and if he gets called to go to another plant, 4 he can't do work for your station because he's still 5 working for the other station. Right? So it wouldn't 6 be unreasonable that he would be available to do that

7. testing. That he would have to catch up the testing 8 at some later point in time. Is that correct?

9 .. *In theory that's correct.

10 In practicality and reality, it's not.

11 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

12 I had to work 13 coordinators schedule the work and also schedule 14 time. When I was there, then ould there. It's 15 all a coordination effort. That's all it is. You 16 have to plan. Of course you can't plan for a 17 emergency or a failure.

18 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:

19 understand.

20 But we didn't-have those 21 issues. It was coordifiated andj idn't leave to go 22 do any other testing. Typically when we didn't need 23 him, .he went home or he went back to. the factory to 24 work. He didn't go to other, places. All I had to do 25 was pick up the phone and say ,,I need you this

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28 1 day or this week" and was there.

2 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. I

3. understand.

.4

  • I never had that problem.

5 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Was he 6 available if you needed him for the entire 12 week 7 online window? Would he be available for that whole 8 interval or was that just impractical because he would 9 be away from home too long?

10 If I needed him, he was 11 there.

12 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: All right.

13 Was he the only person available that could do this 14 testing? I mean Crane Valve Company is a big company.

15 Weren't there other people that could do this testing?

16

  • There were other-people 17 that could do it if we need them.

18 SR.PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

1.9 Ifas unavailable 20 sick or something, I could always get someone. If I 21 called Crane and said "I have to have this done" I 22 could get it done.

23 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Now 24 on the 'testing that was potentially missed -- First of 25 all, let's backtrack. The T-coating you're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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29 1 describing, what exactly does that mean? Does that 2 mean the work is complete but post maintenance testing 3 is left to be done? Is that what that means?

4 W T-coat is that the 5 package is technically correct-and closed.

6 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Technically 7 correct and closed. Can it closed by the work control 8 processes and procedures? Could it be closed with 9 this type of testing still outstanding?

10 1 No.

SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that negative, 12 13

  • Negative.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes.

15 By our procedures and 16 policies, the work packages cannot be closed until the 17 work was completed and documented. That's 18 proceduralized .and governed.

19 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

20 Under that same note, 21 back to your -question about T-coat.

22 23 as for paper 24 -closure not being correct. The package was missing 25 steps, signatures, sign-offs, :these types of things.

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30 1 The same area that you're not completing the work.

2 Part of the reaso .was let go of was the 3 same reason that we're discussing right now and that 4 was by this current superintendent..

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who is the 6 `V1 WM .. f- there when you came in,.

7 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:. And now that' s 9

10 " That's right.

11 SPECIAL, AGENT NEFF: How long ha .* .

12 tbeen in that position?

13 I As a manager or how long 14 has he been in public service?

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In the position there 16 as the I want to say within the 17 18 time frame of a year as th e.-_ .

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So what you' re saying 20 is that when you got there you had seen evidence of 21 this :kind of problem in August 200i but that would 22 have been underc--- "hile he 23 24 'mapRight.~

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And it cleared up.4 NEAL R. AND COURT REPORTERS GROSS .

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31 1 I think you said it was mostly the scheduling issue 2 and you managed to clear up some of these problems, 3 but now it's come back again since September of 2003 4 under a different ON who is 5

6 That's correct.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was anybody else .in 8 there in between?

9 There were two or three 10 acting for a month or two or three in between whe 11 12 SPECdIAL AGENT NEFF: But nobody of length?

13 . . . . Nobody

. of length. It's 14 like a revolving door.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Anybody there now?

16 Anybody in position now? Do you remember. who the 17 names were?

18 19 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: wm ' who was that?

21 They were all filling in 22 -back and forth.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'm missed.

24 last name. I'm sorry.

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32 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:.

2 or something 3 like that. I think he's still there, -but I don't 4 think he was aware of it.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about M

.7 SHe's gone.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: From the reorg?

9 - .Yes.

10 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: How were you 11 able to defend doing things right when everybody else 12 seemed to be taking shortcuts? Did you catch a lot of 13 pressure for that?

14 Yes, sir, I did.

15 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: And what was 16 the difference in time. frame in closing out the work 17 packages when you did it properly compared to taking 18 the short cut? I-mean we're talking about closing the 19 work packages out a day or 'two or five days or 20 something? Give me a relative.time frame.

21 It varied a little bit, 22 but if I had my coordinators schedule it, all I needed 23 to do was talk with nd schedule.' Then every once 24 and a while all I ihad to do was move the work a little 25 bit on the schedule and it got scheduled correctly and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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33 1 closed.

2 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: So you would 3 offer that it wouldn't take much longer at all to do 4 it right.

5. No, sir. In fact it does 6 not take much longer. If you become just a little 7 disciplined with your communication and your 8 coordination, it is not a big effort.

9 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: It sounds 10 like you were doing what was expected. Could the 11 company argue something to the effect that the others 12 weren't doing it the way you were doing it so they 13 were docked for taking the shortcut and that you did 14 it properly?

15 iI find that hard to 16 believe when the supervisors are documenting the 17 package and said they are being pulled to close it.

18 The chiefs and the supervisors will tell you that as 19 wella They don't want to close it.

20 They don't want to say "I got told to falsify 21 something." =Ninety-nine. percent of the work force 22 only wants to do the right thing. If you give them 23 time and you ,listen to them, you can go fix it.

24 There's a lot of smart people and a little bit of 25 common sense. Really it's not rocket science.

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34 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you said you 2 were subjected to pressures for your saying "Get this 3 done, close it out the right way." What kind of 4 pressures were you getting?

5 10 In town pressures.

6 Packages needed to be closed. *Packages needed to be 7 T-coat. It drives the backlog down. You're right it 8 does, but I'd rather take an extra day, coordinate it 9 correctly.or a couple days if I had to, get it done, 10 close it. The bean count comes down but nothing else 11 comes back in.

12 See if I close it correctly the first 13 time, then not only does that work go away and the 14 corrective maintenance goes down, I don't have any 15 corrective actions coming out unless I get 16 programmatic failure. But if I get a programmatic 17 failure, so I have to do an extended condition.. ' °-:

18 go check whatever associated equipment and whatever 19 .category or group that really falls into. If I don't, 20 then everything says status quo and my pans and my 21 corrective maintenance stays where it's at.

22 But if I do not close it correctly then 23 not only am I failing. the program and my corrective 24 maintenance is a false backlog. I, need to write a 25 notification and I'm also going to have a corrective NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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35 1 action out of that notification that-says "I have to 2 go fix it." Now I'm doubling and tripling my work and 3 typically all the corrective actions go to the first 4 line supervisors. Now not only out there are they 5 directing crews but they're trying to make up 6 corrective actions. The corrective actions could be 7 something like "I have to coach and counsel. the 8 vendor. I have to coach and counsel the work force or 9 the chief for making a mistake and closing the 10 package."

11 That all takes time and that has to be 12 reviewed and approved. It quadruples your 13 administrative log. If I did the work right the first 14 time and cleaned up the schedules and have it planned 15 and coordinated properly and executed it, then I'm 4

16 actually reducing the corrective maintenance backlog 17 and I'm also reducing the administrative backlog for 18 the supervisors and making everybody',s life liveable 19 and predictable. The equipment got fixed. The people 20 are happy because they-are productive doing the least 21 amount of administrative work and it's legitimate.

22 That's how I reduced the supervisor's 23 overtime. That ounce of prevention and that extra few 24 minutes to plan it and coordinate it pays big 25 dividends. You actually get more work done and you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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36 1 actually do it with less people if you plan it and 2 take your time planning it correctly.

3 So I built templates for the schedulers as 4 well as the program so we could do pretesting on 5 relief valves and had spares ready so that we could 6 plan accordingly. That bundled the work up so I had 7 the vendor in there the least amount of time and get 8 all the work accomplished and also reduced the cost.

  • is theg 9

10 AYou could talk to him about it. He's also 11 aware of some of the stuff going on down there.' I 12 think he might be able to confirm a few things for 13 you. theI'm sure 14 if you'd talk t and ask him what I did or how I 15 did it and if it made sense. I won't put words into 16 either one of those mouths, but if you were to confer 17 with them they might be able to support what I'm 18 telling you.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that was 20 21 Yes, ma'am.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That' s not a name you 23 mentioned to me yesterday. -I knoyou 24 did say.

Right. is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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37 1 a relief valve program --

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: All right. Do you 3 have anything else you want to add to that,iM M 4 'No, I don't want to put 5 words into other people's mouths. What I did wasn't 6 rocket science either.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No. Thanks for that 8 explanation though.

9 SR. .PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: In thzl.n::i 10 about you doing the testing properly, were there any 11 of the reports that ever came back where you had 12 something significant on the band?

13 High or low?

14 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Yes, high or 15 low or where there had to be.some additional work and 16 things got delayed a little bit more? Do you recall 17 what systems those were on?

18 No. Right now, I don't.

19 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

20 U We had some come up and 21 -we also had some come in a little bit low. Nothing 22 that jumps out right now in my mind.

23 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Very good.

24 Thanks.

25 You're welcome sir.

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38 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You had discussed the 2 .Bravo recirc pump and significant issues with that.

3 And the time frame was 4 October.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This is March 2003, 6 right?

7 , , ;Yes, ma'am.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes. This is the 9 incident where you described yourself as not being 10 seen as a team player.

11 Another one, yes.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Because you.wanted to.

13 fit repairs into the next refuel outage, 14 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Nobody was in 16 agreement with you in terms of going internal to this 17 pump.

18 I'll recap it. We shut 19 the plant down because of unknown drywall leakage.

20 The unknown drywall leakage was attributed to the 21 Bravo recirc pump. Initial entry available, we had a 22 chilled water line that hada crack in it The sea!

23 was leaking. We-had documented high temperatures in 24 the first and second stages, between the stages if you 25 will and higher flow rates. -7/,

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1 We corrected the chilled water line but we 2 also went into the recirc pump and seal. We found the 3 seal faces degraded severely. They attributed that 4 to a relief valve issue. We also found the relief 5 valve issue which was gagging it at the time.

6 We also found upon disassembling aux 7 impeller which is underneath the seal assembly.

8 Inside the stuffing box, the aux impeller was rubbing 9 inside diameter of the stuffing box assembly. The 10 seal was replaced. We started the plant back up. We 11 also had an issue at the point in time with the 12 turbine housing. I think you're aware of that fiasco 13 as well.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The same time frame, 15 right? March 2003?

16 1 Yes.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Bypass valve issue.

18 I Yes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, we're aware of 20 it.

21 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Did you say 22 the seal was in fact replaced, the recirc pump seal?

23 Yes, Sir.

24 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: When you 25 were talking about the problems with the face and the NEAL R. GROSS

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S,"f 1 degradation, the new seal package was installed.

2 Wasn't it installed in fact to replace that to take 3 away the degradation?

4 Yes.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The time *is now 6 approximately 3:09 p.m.

7 I need to leave here a around 3:30 p.m. today.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We'll put a 10 tick in it. Okay, Scott.

11 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: My question 12 was regarding this. I think earlier you said earlier 13 the seal was in fact replaced and you also described 14 that there was some degradation of the sealant. What 15 was really asking you was if the replacement activity 16 in fact took away the degradation?

17 N Of the seal or the pump?

18 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Of the seal.

19 I think you were -describing the seal., Were you 20 talking about the-faces of'the seal itself?

21 Right. The'mechanical 22 seal faces.,

23 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Right. Were 24 degraded but in fact a new mechanical seal was 25 installed.

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41 I Yes, sir.

2 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: And the old 3 was taken out. Should that aspect have been 4 addressed?

5 Yes, it was. That 6 aspect. The leakage attributed from the seal.

7 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: And you also a mentioned the relief valve problem that was addressed 9 also.

10 #MEMO" The relief valve, the 11 seal purge line to the relief valve was one of the 12 direct attributing factors to the degradation of the 13 seal.

14 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Was thac 15 fixed?

16 The relief valve was 17 gagged so that it would not open providing constant 18 seal purge flow. That helps improve the performance 19 of the seal.

20 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: That' s like 21 an unusual alignment. Do you happen to know whether 22 that was evaluated or not?

23 _ Yes, it was evaluated 24 after much .frustration.. -77 25 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Frustration NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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42 1 on whose part?

2 On everybody's part. My 3 part and everybody. I wanted a new style relief valve 4 installed. I didn't want to.gag.it.

5 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Well 6 normally something like that would require a DCP.

7 Yes. There was a a temporary mod installed, temporary modification and 9 evaluation was done.

10 SR. PROJECT *ENGINEER BARBER: Well a 11 temporary mod for the gag.

12 Right.

13 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: So 14 engineering did evaluate that and found it to be 15 acceptable.

16. Yes.

17 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: From a 18 safety standpoint. Obviously it's not desirable. Any 19 -time you can go ahead and plan that.

20 It's not a desirable 21 configuration. But an evaluation was done and 22 everything was gagged with a temporary modification 23 and an engineering evaluation and a concurrent review 24 by Operations for operability -and it was put into 25 place.

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43 1 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Were 2 there other issues? You were describing something 3 about a stuffing box.

4 i Okay. The mechanical 5 seal sits if you will inside the stuffing box but on 6 top. Below the mechanical seal is the auxiliary 7 impeller. The outside diameter of the auxiliary 8 impeller was found to be rubbing- on the inside 9 diameter of the stuffing box. The auxiliary impeller 10 had an eighth of an inch, 125 thousandths clearance il between the outside diameter of the impeller and the 12 inside diameter of the stuffing box.

13 So somewhere somehow that aux impeller 14 rubbed on the stuffing box which means something gave 15 an eighth of an inch. What's below the stuffing box 16 is a bushing-bearing that the pump shaft rides in. I 17 believe that the clearance between that bearing and 18 the pump shaft is around 40,000 to 60,000, someplace 19 in there which means the clearance is twice as tight 20 as it-between the aux impeller and the stuffing box by 21 design. But yet that aux impeller touched the inside 22 diameter of the stuffing box.

23 So 'one of two things had to happen.

24 Either from above that aux impeller or below that aux 25 impeller that shaft had to move and something instead NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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44 1 of running true became a eccentric and moved. Since 2 both of the motor. upper and lower bearings were 3 inspected and found to well within tolerance by 4 design, the as-found accompanying alignment that was 5 taken was well within design. The only logical 6 question is what is below the seal in the aux impeller 7 which is that bearing what is the current gap if you 8 will or wear measured that would allow that st.a.r:.

9 the aux impeller so it would touch inside diameter of 10 the stuffing box.

11 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Does that 12 pump have-a thrust bearing on it?

.13 MM Yes, sir.

14 SR. *PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Is it above 15 or below the --

16 It have a hydraulic 1-7 thrust bearing below..

18 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Is it like 19 a Kingsberry (PH) thrust bearing?.

20 -- No, a Kingsberry thrust 21 bearing if you will is on top of the motor. It's a 22 horizontal pump. That's a vertical pump.

23 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

24 saw So you have the motor and

'25 the pump hanging down from below it.

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45 1 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Right. So 2 is it possible that the shaft could have moved in the 3 axial direction and that's how the aux impeller 4 contacted the inside of the stuffing box?

5 If the shaft moves in the 6 axial direction, then I would see it in the motor. . I 7 would have overthrusted the motor. It has to have 8 moved in the radial.

9 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: So you 10 believe it moved in the radial direction.

1,.It had to have. As a 12 matter of fact, my seal faces showed some signs of 13 that too. I also, have a Flow Sei-ve vendor brought, in 14 when I disassembled that tight seal. But when I took 15 it out, inspected it and dissembled the seal earlier, 16 the vendor came to the same conclusion I did. There 17 was some internal to the pump.

18 In my words I either have a pump and 19 impeller imbalanced, a bowed shaft or a combination of 20 I'm getting wear in that bushing enough that it ate ulp 21 that 125 thousandths gap we had at the eighth of an 22 inch where the aux impeller is touching. The aux 23 impeller is keyed to the-pump shaft and it's a tight 24 shaft.

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46 1 sharing these observations based on personal firsthand 2 knowledge either at the worksite or just reviewing 3 work packages or how did you get this information?

4 -. Firsthand knowledge. I 5 was there. I looked at it. I saw it.

6 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Now you 7 interchangeably used the terms bushing and bearing.

8 Right.

9 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Was it a 10 bushing or bearing in the lower section?

11 To me, it's just a play 12 on words. Below the stuffing box, there is a lower 13 stuffing box bushing. On the bottom of the impeller, 14 there is a hydraulic bearing.

15 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: When you are 16 using the words bushing and bearing, the way I think 17 of a bushing it's a sacrificial piece that's used to 18 provide a tolerance or clearance between a moving 19 component and a fixed component.

,20 Correct 21 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: And it's 22 designed to wear. Or as a bearing, I tend to think of 23 it as like a ballbearing where you have an inner race 24 and outer race and balls between-them-.

25 Or Kingsberry thrust.

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47 1 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Yes, or 2 Kingsberry thrust.

3 This is really a bushing.

4 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

5 _ __ It's right below the 6 stuffing box.

7 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: So I guess 8 in your estimation what are the implications of this 9 problem? I understand that there have been some 10 problems with the aux impeller and having some 11 physical contact. Are there any other implications?

12 Is there any other implication related to the main 13 function of the pump which is the wide reactor 14 circulation problem?

15 In my opinion, the answer 16 is yes. If I've lost greater than 60,000ths clearance 17 in the bushing so the aux impeller is touching and 18 rubbing on that stuffing box, then it runs the way it 19 is. I'm getting -- Let me back up just for a second.

20 If it's a bowed shaft, just for the sake of this "21. conversation and we'll say the bow in the vicinity of 22 this bearing, what is done is probably this pump has 23 had consistently high vibrations., I believe it's the 24 highest in the industry. The more that pump runs the 25 more that bushing we'll say has its center but you NEAL.R. GROSS -7C COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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48 1 still get slight wear. If I've already ate up that 2 clearance for the aux impeller to touch, how much more 3 before the shaft -- metal contact with the pump 4 stuffing box.

5 Once that pump shaft of the recirc pump 6 sees that metal to metal because it's ate the 7 clearance up in the bearing, what's going to happen to 8 the pump shaft in the component? It's going to start 9 heating up solely. It's going to start wearing 10 apparent to clearances. There's a direct correlation 11 in the response when it does do that to the seal. It 12 will start stuffifng box temperatures. The seal will 13 start degrading rapidly again. if you get enough Weý.r 14 and you lose enough tolerances and you get enough 15 friction rubbing between the shaft and the stuffing

16. box, then these stand a chance of catastrophically 17 losing that mechanical seal. If you catastrophically 18 lose the mechanical seal,. the potential isn't going to 19 be a LOCA.

20 SR. PROJECT-ENGINEER BARBER: Allright.

21' Now when you observe this and identify this problem 22 and narrowed it down to as you're describing this 23 potentially low bushing or possibly due to bowed 24 shaft, did you: write a notification on that?

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49 1 was addressed. I didn't personally write the 2 notification. The notification was originally written 3 for the seal failure and it was addressed accordingly.

4 The pump engineers answered the failure mechanism as 5 Subsequent meetings to that, the the seal purged.

6 only thing we could put together or call it with a 7 troubleshooter going forward for some dimensions to be 8 taken in RF10. I believe it's RF10, the next --

9 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Did someone 10 tell you not to write a notification on this? It sounds like you had unique knowledge, firsthand 12 knowledge because you were right there. You saw it.

13 Yes, I saw it.

14 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: You came to 15 a conclusion on it and the presumption is in the 16 process is that you write a notification, either you 17 or somebody else in your work party or work group.

18 I'm trying to understand why that wasn't done.

19 About the same time 20 frame, we were starting back up and we were having all 21 the problems with bypass valves.

22 SR..PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

23 What was being put out 24 for the organization was we didn't shut down for the 25 pump. We shut down for the chilled water line. There NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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5o 1 wasn't any issue. The bypass valve issue was "We have 2 to get the -- going. We have to get it running and 3 we're going to put most of it going forward." There 4 is no issue with the recirc pump. It's just the purge 5 line. There was no issue with the bypass valves.

6 It's just turbine controls in HC.

7 So the push was that there wasn't any 8 significant issues. We needed the plants up and 9 running. We didn't shut down for recirc pump. We 10 shut down for a chilled waterline.

11 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Did you 12 discuss your observations with someone?

13 L~. --

A group of people.

14 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Who did you 15 discuss it with?

16 who was the 17 The pump meetings, we hadd 18 I mentioned your counterpart yesterday. There 19 was a gentleman by the name of.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:. was the 21 one who put the troubleshooting plan together.

22 Yes, I remembered later 23 on last night that there's another engineer, 24 -

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was his role?

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51 1also 2 heard all those statements being made.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Let' s get back to 4 Scott's question though. When you discussed the.

5 condition of it, who was involved in that from 6 management and where was this push coming from that:

7 made the decision that we're not going to attribute 8 the forced outage to the pump or to the bypass valve?

9 That's firsthand 10 knowledge. That push was coming fror-- I:-

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did they offer some 13 sort of any explanation on the reasons for their 14 handling it this way?

15 For saying that we went-16 down for chilled water, is that what you're asking me?

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes.

18 I'm sorry. I need a 19 clarification.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, for saying that.

ý21 For why do we handle it in this manner.

22 Because it was related to 23 *awaterline that was leaking. in the drywall. They had 24 talked with the vice president at the time who was .*

1 and that we didn't have a significant 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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52 1 [inaudible]. For all we know it would have lasted.

2 For all we know it wouldn't have been a problem and it 3 was really just the chilled water line that brought us 4 down.

5 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: The thing 6 that- I'm trying to understand as you're describing it 7 is I understand at least in a limited fashion what 8 you're describing about the problem with the seal 9 package. I. also understand a little bit more about 10 the problem with the gagged relief valve. What I'm 11 having difficulty understanding is why - again it may 12 be because as you described there were production 13 pressures - no one even considered writing a 14 -notification even if it was to discuss whether to try 15 and repair this lower bushing and investigate the 16 cause for the excessive wearing of the bushing or the 17 aux impeller at some point in the future.  :-

18 like the issue got lost. I'm ýjust trying to 19 understand 'that.

20 There was still an open 21 -notification on the recirc pumps seal failure. S,-;

22 -typically what you find* is they don't write a new 23 modification identifying a more or deeper condition.

24 Typically when they process this is when you have open 25 notification just go add to it. I can show you that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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53 1 in diesel work orders where there is one work order 2 and 32 or 33 notifications tied to one work order for 3 a diesel generator.

4 So rather than adding to everybody's.

5 backlog if there's an open notification and you'll 6 find this across theboard that they'll just go in and 7 add to an existing notification. Then their problem 8 is solved.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did that happen in 10 this case? Did you add to the existing notification 11 whatyou found lonce you opened it up?

12 I didn't.

1 I think I gave'

  • 13 that to one of my mechanic's names.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, you gave me the 15 three who have been in there a couple of times over 16 the years. Right?

17 r You can look.

18 SPECIAL AGENT, NEFF: I think I have it 19 straight.

20 One or-two of them went 21 into notification added and what they. found.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This is) 24 Yes. 7 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But the question NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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54 1 specifically was someone directed not to write a 2 notification. You're indicating that the practice was 3 don't add to the work orders, but was there a specific 4 direction in this instance to not a notification?

5 No direct communication 6 was given not to write a notification. No. It was 7 implied that it wasn't necessary. That they had the 8 open-notification and engineering was evaluating them.

9 Was there a direct communication? No.

10 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER* BARBER: Did 11 engineering hear your explanation that we just heard 12 regarding the impeller?

13 Many times.

14 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Who at 15 engineering heard that?

16 17 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Those are 18 the names you already mentioned..

19 Yes, sir.

20 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: What about 21 22 No, sir.

23 SR. PROJECT -ENGINEER BARBER: So these 24 guys all heard the full explanation we heard.

25 7 Yes, sir.

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55 1 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Then did 2 they listen to the whole thing all the way through and 3 then said "No, we're shutting down because of chilled 4 water"?

5- Yes, sir.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is it at this point 7 where you indicated that made the 8 statement that the -shutdown was attributed to the 9 chilled water line and anybody who wants..to .argue that 10 can argue that with or-myself?

11 Yes, ma'am.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But effect did that 13 have on your work crew?

14 I was in a meeting. at 15 Hope Creek. The meeting was right next to the 16 cafeteria. They call it a conference room or library 17 room or whatever it is. There was nothing but.

18 management people in there.- At that point in -time, 19 * " . .. There was 120 There were three.-or four of us. That's 21 'when testing was made and nobody there said anything 22 about it. Not a word. .-- ,-

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you know if the 24 condition there is' the same today as it was March 25 2003?

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56 1 Yes, ma am.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: There has been no 3 repairs effected or attempts to fix the issue.

4 73 No, you would have to 5 shut down and make a drywall entry.

6 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: I think 7 earlier you mentioned that you though B recirc pump 8 had the highest vibrations of any pump in the 9 industry. How do you know that?

10 My experience there.

11 When I came there as a .

12 originally, whatever refuel outage that I walked into 13 the end of the outage, of course I was brand new there 14 and I had my hands full with the valves. I was just 15 trying to get my hands around how we did business and 16 how the organization functioned if that makes sense.

17 Coming out of the outage it was labeled a 18 huge outage when the Bravo recirc pump had been 19 worked. In essence they took a 4,000 or 6,000 skim 20 cut on the coupling face, moved the -vibration prox 21 probe, installed the new mechanical seal'and then ran 22 the pump and low:-and behold the vibrations dropped 23 significantly., When you machine a coupling face even 24 a couple thousands and then you turn around and !fv÷-

25 the original prox probe you're not going to get the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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57 1 current reading you got before so you can have 2 something to compare as-found to as-left because 3 you've moved the location of the probe.

4 As a matter of fact in a morning report, 5 that was counted as a huge win for the organization at 6 the time I put that one to bed. Of course with a mess 7 like that, we shut the plant down to go change the 8 seal out again.

9 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: You're 10 saying that the action of the machining the face and 11 moving the proximity probe for the vibration detector 12 preceded the outage to replace the seal?

13. That was before. So in 14 November 2001, they were working on the coupling face 15 and the work on the prox probe took place. Plus a new 16 recirc shield was installed.

17 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: But that was 18 for a refueling outage in that time frame. Is that 19 what you're describing?.

20 Yes, sir. And that was 21 -being counted as the big win and the big fix for Bravo 22 recirc pump.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: All right.

2For all the vibration 25 issues and seal failures they've had in the past.

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58 1 What I've seen is that it didn't fix anything. It 2 masked it. If you are going to do corrective 3 maintenance on a working piece of equipment and you 4 move, you do maintenance on it and change pieces an:]

5 parts or modify them and then to move.the prox probe.

6 Then you in essence will not get the same vibration 7 readings in a different location. You potentially get 8 a higher or lower.

9 In this case, they got a lower because 10 they masked the problem. What they should have done 11 is if they believed that was the right fix and there 12 were a lot of smart people involved in it they should 13 have left the prox probe where it was and maybe 14 installed an additional second one so you had two as-15 found/as-left readings. And you had something on the 16 baseline you're [inaudible]. That's not what was 17 done.

18 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Did 19 you have anything more to add-on to the B recirc pump?

20 No, if you talk with 21 those mechanics, they can tell you any of the details 22 or questions, or what.they've seen in thepast and what 23 they think the-future maintenance needs to be.

24 SPECIAL AGENT:NEFF: Again that's 25 You had indicated that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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59 1 these are the in-house mechanics who were upset 59 2 because it wasn't a complete fit at that time.

3 ~~ Rght.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you also 5 indicated yesterday that management and this is at 6 level didn't want to hear about going

.7 internal with the pump. It would be a shutdown and 8 they would have to go in and fix it internally.

9 i-That's correct.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who else was on that 11 side? was the one who wrote the 12 troubleshooting plan and you said there was a Flow 13 Serve representative involved.

14 *U Yes.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And 16 I think you said was in agreement.

17 M The Flow Serve rep was 18 there for that forced outage.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

20 . And gave us a written 21 recommendations.,, -

22 SPECIAL AGENTNEFF: Indicating what? Did 23 you have a chance to review the report?

24 ____ Absolutely. His 25 recommendation was going internal for the pump.

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60 I SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in agreement with 2 him was who was the 3

4 Right.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He also agreed they 6 needed to go internal.

7 m Yes.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you present for 9 discussions wit.h. r anybody who was 10 presenting the situation to senior management? Were 11 you present for these discussions?

    • I was not.

12 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So the individual you 14 were primarily.dealing with would be fo" '

15 -He was participating in 16 some of the troubleshooting plans going forward for 17 the recirc pump.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you also 19 indicated that you had conversations wit 20 on that.

21 W'M Right and I had 22 conversations wit one on one an ne on 23 ,one -that we needed to go. internal. We needed to 24 replace the internals of the. pump and find out what 25 was really wrong. They relayed to me that there were NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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. I 61 1 none. It was not critical. It was a business 2 decision and a business decision as maybe it's cheaper 3 to go just keep replacing the pump seals. There was 4 no imminent threat to the plant.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The plant was 6 designed to handle it.

7 Yes.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were they aware of 9 the Flow Serve rep's filings too?

10 0" Yes, ma'am.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you think that 12 they were made aware - I thinkScott got to this a 13 little earlier - of precisely what you were aware of 14 with regard to the problems that you saw?

i5 Yes, ma'am. Every 16 detail.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: and 18 19 * **Yes, ma'am.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What- about:

21 (PH)? You said he was.the at the time.

22. .-. . N, he was the 23 24 Q SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

25 He had asked for everything that you had on the pump.

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62 1 . S~lh'~h~Yes.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you got no 3 response from-him, right?

4 I sent it to him and to 5 :13:58 That's correct.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He asked for it 7 though, right?

8 a1m Yes, ma'am.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'm sorry. Who was 10 the-second person?

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was his 13 position?

14 He' s the 15 ____---___--_________-__ now at Hope Creek.

16 'SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you get a 17 response from VOI 18 Other than 'he got my 19 stuff.

20 SPECIALAGENT NEFF: Okay. He received 21 what you sent him.

22 O. I Yes.

23. SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER: Let me just.

24 back up. I want to ask a question about some of the 25 details I heard.

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63 1 I have to go in a second.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I know you have to 3 leave. Do you want to go off the record briefly?

4Yes.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:. Right now it's 6 approximately 3:35 p.m.

7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 8 the record at 3:35 p.m. and went back on 9 the record at 3:40 p.m.)

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: All right. On the 11 record. Just to close. It's approximately 3:40 p.m.

12 What we've agreed to do is continue the interview on 13 Thursday the 29th. Can we do it at 1:00 p.m.?

14 .,Yes, ma'am.

15 . SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, we'll go off' 16 the record at this point.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter was 18 concluded at 3:42 p.m.)

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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

Name of Proceeding: interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-01F

" Location: telephone interview were held as herein appears, and that this is the

  • original. transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory, Commission taken by me and, thereafter. reduced tb typewriting by me .or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true .and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded. on tape (s) provided by the NRC.

T, .-r srrento Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

NEAL R. GROSS.

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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