ML061460298

OI Interview Transcript of Witness, Dated 11/12/2003, Pages 1-166

ML061460298
Person / Time
Site:	Salem, Hope Creek
Issue date:	11/12/2003
From:	NRC/OI
To:
References
1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1217
Download: ML061460298 (167)

Text

Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

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Title:

Interview o I T-I C,...- .:

Docket Number: 1-2003-051 F VZi . ,2 (T .. 7

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rm Location: Hancock's Bridge, New Jersey Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 Work Order No.: NRC-1217 Pages 1-166 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 Information in this record was deleted inaccordance With the freedom of lnformation Act, "emptponssA G

1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3

4 OFFICE OF THE INVESTIGATOR GENERAL 5 INTERVIEW 6 ___________ -x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:

8 INTERVIEW OF - Cv'  : Docket No.

9  : 1-2003-OSIF 10 (CLOSED) 11 12 -x-13 14 Wednesday, November 12, 2003 15 PSEG 16 NRC Resident's Office 17 Hancock's Bridge, NJ 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted 20 at 12:40 p.m.

21 22 BEFORE:

23 Special Agent EILEEN NEFF 24 ALSO PRESENT:

25 Senior Project Engineer SCOTT BARBER NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 12:40 p.m.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Today's date is 4 November 12, 2003. The time is approximately 12:40 5 p.m. Speaking is Special Agent Eileen Neff, U.S. NRC 6 Region I, Office of Investigations. Also present from 7 Region I is Scott Barber, Senior Project Engineer, and 8 this interview will be with 9 at Salem Hope Creek. The 10 interview is in regard to an assessment of the safety 11 conscious work environment, and as has been explained 12 t there is no subject of investigation.

13 This is an overall assessment that we're looking for, 14 and there is no specific potential violation 15 associated with the safety conscious work environment.

16 I explained to you we'd conduct the 17 interview under oath, so if you'd raise your right 18 hand. Do you swear that the information you're about 29 to provide is the truth, the whole truth and nothing 20 but the truth, so help you God?

21 I do.

22 -PECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Thank you. I 23 think what we could do is if you would state for the 24 record your name and spell your last name --

25 Sure. - /1l/(-7 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEF F: -- and the provide 2 date of birth and social secu:rity number.

3 --. Okay. IGn o~

0 . .

4 5 MW-6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And your home 7 and work contact numbers, please, telephone numbers.

.I 1 8

9 I'I 10 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And can we get 12 a brief summary of your work experience here with 13 PSEG? When did you start?

14 jJ I started in December of

-0 15 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. In what 17 position?

eC-18 I was the -- I think my 19 title, to the best of my knowledge, the H.R. title I 20 always mess up a little bit, something like' 21 22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

24 Okay. And I was brought in 25 to actually create a function not unlike the one I'm NEAL R.GROSS f f -

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(I 1 leading right now, which is like a 2

3 And that was why I was 4 brought in because I had a chemistry background and a 5 radiation protection background. That's what I was 6 brought in to do, and that was my initial position.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And then did 8 that change along the way, different positions?

9 Yes. For a short while, I 10 was the 11 hen my boss (phonetic) left the 12 company to go back to the NRC.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So what year 14 would that be?

15 That would be like 19 --

16 that's a good question -- something like 17 that.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

19 - I think it was 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And then --

21 It must have been

• right 22 after Hope Creek went commercial.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, okay. Just in 24 general then, what were your position changes to date?

25 Yes. I applied for the NEAL R. GROSS i7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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-J 1 job at Hope 2 Creek and became that, and that was 3 excuse me. It was actually during the first refueling 4 outage at Hope Creek.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

6 And I was there until I was 7 sent to. I think I 8 completed the in 19-9 I think I started it in late and finished it in 10 the middle o 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

12 So I went off to school and 13 __

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: That course that 15 you went to that was -- was that for PSEG or was that 16 for something With 17 It was we worked out a deal 18 with ~ They actually had like a cold cert 19 class and we didn't --

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

21 -- at the time. We had an 22 earlier arrangement with Susquehanna --

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

24 -- and that had evaporated, 25 so we created a new relationship with . And, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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0 1 actually, because I'm the crew with a new plant 2 manager -- like the new plant manager at the time for 3

• was -- I was part of his crew.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I see.

5 Okay? And he was a PWR 6 trained guy, and they were training him as a BWR 7 trained guy.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I see. Okay.

9

• a_ Okay?

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Thank you.

11 Andthat's-- we just created 12 a relationship that we believe we needed until we got 13 some capability back in-house --

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

15 for that. So I --

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So in did you 17 return here then?

18 I returned here. I became 19 the -- like the equivalent title now i 20 of Hope Creek. At the time we 21 called 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

23 Okay? And I did that for 24 about three or f our years, about three and a half, 25 roughly, and then I became actually a -- that's when NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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l 1 I went to Salem for like, I forget the exact 2 duration, seven or eight months for --

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: When would that 4 have been?

5 l That would have been the very 6 end of the beginning of somewhere around 7 there, like right around Christmastime. I think, 8 actually, I talked to people right before Christmas 9 and then after Christmas is when I started, somewhere 10 right around there.

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER. Okay.

12 And then I became the -- I 13 worked in a new function that didn't exist that long 14 cI worked for, I guess you could 15 call me the acting 16 o a period of like about seven or 17 eight months, okay?

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And for4t 19 gwhat did that entail?

20 It was an attempt to 21 centralize a planning for the whole facility, like 22 do all planning and scheduling. And it was a good 23 intention, it was actually kind of what we're getting 24 to now.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. s NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 And we created an integrated 2 like long-range plan, integrated schedule for the big 3 ticket items like the steam generator replacement and 4 like that kind of thing. And --

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was the focus of 6 that mainly outage planning?

7 o No. It was like the whole 8 big flick to actually get it all integrated.

9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

10 17I call it integrated planning 11 and scheduling is really what it was.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that took you up 14 through what year?

15 I think 16 )Itwas like seven or eight months, something on 17 that order. And then I became the 18 at Salem.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And when was 20 that?

21 j That was or most of 1 22 I don't remember the exact start month but it was in 23 that time frame, roughly. I didn't --

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's okay. That's 25 close enough.

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1 Li--- 4-I rN1 -- come prepared. I should 2 have brought my resume or something.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's okay. I'm 4 just looking at the general idea of the positions held 5 and where your site experience is.

6 e Yes 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, I mean that's 8 fine.

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G 10 And then actually I became the 11 eaning that was (phonetic) 12 when he first came right after that. That would be 13 0) took the job 14 and did that for 15 about three years. And then --

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What was -- I'm 17 sorry, I didn't catch the last -- what were you?

18 - I; .

19 20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And when was 21 that?

22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was the 24 function, what did you do in that position?

25 I was the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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+/- v4 2

3 4

5 7 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Did you work for 8 Win that time frame also?

9 Yes, I did.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Was this 11 a newly created position?

12 N o . N 13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Oh, so it was 14 preexisting?

15 Preexisting. The manager 16 that was there prior resigned from the Company, and I 17 immediately applied for the job.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Okay.

19 It was a ) in the, job, 20 # had been there for about three or four years, did 21 a terrific job. decided to go elsewhere and I 22 said, "Ah, opportunity knocks."

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And so you stayed 24 there for three years.

25 Yes.

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11 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then what?

2 0 Then I applied for and got a 3 job -- actually, I didn't apply for it, the Vice 4 President actually came to me and said, "Would you 5 like a job in "and I said, "Yes," so 6 I became the and I did 7 that for about -- I guess I did that from 8

9 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And your 11 current isMO 12 CCorrect.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Just recent then.

14 w~__*_^-: Yes.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Who's theoffD 16 that you were working with for 17 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

19 He actually came to me one 20 day and said, "'I hear - tells me that you're 21 interested in getting back in the station." I said, 22 "Yes, I am." He said, "Would you consider come 23 working for me," and I said, "Where?" He said, 4 24 nd I said, "Why would you want me to 25 come there?" "Because I like the way you straight NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS S 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 talk, okay? And that's exactly what I need is 2 somebody who will straight talk with people." And so 3 I said, "Okay. What's it looks like," and then we 4 went back and I said, "What do you think?" He said, 5 "I think it's a fit." And I came over.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in that position 7 what were your primary duties there in the

-I 8

9 10 work. What it's is 11 equivalent to like it's for 1?2 online work.

13 ,SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Were you one of 14 many or were,you like in charge of the work between --

15 I was one of several. I was 16 one of originally four and then we went up to eight.

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. So you 18 were one of those eight. Okay. I just was trying to 19 understand the title.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And who were you 21 working for directly, and who did you report to as the 22 23 j For about a year of that I 24 reported to a guy who's no longer here name 25 (phonetic). He came here from some other utility and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 then went back to some other utility.

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What position is 3 that?

4 It was the --

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was it the I--,-

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• e __ __ _ 5 016,F VAi 9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

10 That title is not in 11 existence anymore.

12 THE WITNESS: SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

13 old title.

14 E  : old title, and it's

-15 called the ow, I think.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And then after 17 a year you went to somebody else?

18 J After like whatever that was, 19 May through September, I guess, it would have been 20 like --

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: A year and a half 22 or so?

23 -- a year and a half or so, 24 then I -- then this reorganization took place and I 25 became tm .n,-T

-I _________________

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1 current title.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Okay. And 3 currently who do you report to?

4 (phonetic).

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's an extensive 6 bit of experience.

7 Yes.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The --

9 JAnd I actually came here with 10 a lot of experience before that. I worked as a 11 Project Manager for a large engineering firm before I 12 came here, a very successful one.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It doesn't seem as 14 though you could say your experience may have been in 15 some Salem positions but it looks like your more 16 recent positions are going to be site-wide, right, 17 Salem and Hope Creek?

18 Recently it's been site-wide.

19 I would say if I had a strength in terms of expertise, 20 I would say I really know lots about Hope Creek and I 21 would say I know tons about Hope Creek and I know a 22 good deal about Salem because I spent a lot of time 23 there, but I'm a bit of an expert about Hope Creek.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

25 In terms of how it works and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 the history and what works and what doesn't work too, 2 right?

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes. That's 4 good.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I guess overall, and 6 I'd be starting very broadly to do this considering 7 all your site experience, but what we're looking for, 8 and I'll do it, I'll just start broadly, is your 9 assessment of the safety culture on-site. To help you 10 in that, things that we're considering are things like 11 do people raise concerns, and we're looking at 12 concerns of a nuclear safety nature? Do they do so 13 comfortably? Overall, do you see any strengths, do 14 you see any weaknesses to the way things are handled 15 on-site? And I know that's a very broad way to begin.

16 a---Em artSure.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I don't know if you 18 have anything you'd like to address first.

19 Sure. You're right, it's a 20 broad question. My initial gut reaction is to me it's 21 like -- it's a continuum. It's like --

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I know you have to go 23 with time frames on this too.

24 And time frames, right. So 25 it varies. And to me, you know, it's like -- so how NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4 Ic 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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1 I look at a safety conscious environment or a safety 2 culture, if you will, is how I define it is, how my 3 brain processes the question and the data is a culture 4 -- is a conversation about what's real and work 5 environment or a community, right? That's the 6 culture.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

8 _ So then safety culture would 9 be a culture about reality, about safety, what appears 10 real to people in their conversation about it. To me 11 that's what culture is.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

13 What people say about it.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

15 Do you know what I mean? And 16 to me it's like pockets of conversations, like the 17 conversation here might be a little different than the 18 conversation over here.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

20 Right? So like if I go over 21 here, it might be a very, what's the word, fertile 22 safety culture, like it's open and you go like 100 23 feet away and it may not be anywhere near as fertile.

24 Does that make sense? Like, in other words, it may be 25 tougher-- (-7c NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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17 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I suppose so, but, I 2 guess, maybe where would you see it where it's less 3 fertile or do you see areas where the environment 4 functions better safety-wise than others? And I guess 5 what I would say is let's look at recent years --

6 LYes. Sure.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- your most recent 8 experience here.

9 Yes. So where would it be 10 like highly workable? Is that the place to start?

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

12 I would say, in general, even 13 for the continuum, each group has its ups and downs, 14 right?

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

16 L An area that I know 17 consistently does well at this is RP, Radiation 18 Protection.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

20 .Just seems like a lot of open 21 communication, like -- there's always issues, right, 22 but they get deal with.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. They're 24 raised, they're addressed.

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18 1 dealt with. And I'm sure there is in 20 years or 2 whatever there's got to be a couple of cases where Rad 3 Pro blew it, right, and didn't handle it well, but for 4 the most part it's very handled well, and I would say 5 that's true still now.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

7 Yes. In your question, 8 context is decisive, the context of the question.

9 Actually, for the whole thing called conversation 10 about safety it's all context, right?

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

12  : So it's so variable by time 13 and circumstance and what shows up today and right 14 behind the conversation shifts.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

16 Right? Like, for example, in 17 your reorg my experience when we've had other reorgs 18 there's a period of time right after the reorg where 19 it's like crummy, that people are reluctant to talk, 20 they clam up, that kind of thing.

21 SPECIALAGENT NEFF: Okay.

22 You know what I'm saying?

23 Actually, I don't have that intense experience right 24 now, but I'm -- in other words, I'm not present to a 25 lot of conversations that are still confined or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4 7/

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19 1 suppressed or anything like that, but I'm sure that's 2 likely to be true somewhere after a reorg. That's my 3 experience.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. I guess along 5 those lines where you're considering something to be 6 repressed or stilted, in terms of raising a concern of 7 a nuclear safety nature, are you aware of any 8 circumstances where someone would say, "I'm not going 9 to push this issue," for fear of what may happen to 10 them or for any reason that they wouldn't raise a 11 concern?

12 I don't know of anything 13 specific but I know that through time and I know that 14 -- like I hear honetic) give a talk 15 about a week and a half ago here and what caught my 16 ear about his talk is like he had -- I'll be straight 17 with you, it wasn't a particularly great talk but of 18 all the speakers he had the most, let's say, 19 provocative points, okay? Like he had four what I 20 call provocative points that made you think. The one 21 that struck me and in the context of this conversation 22 was a concern that 'rb Mille had was, I think he 23 called it self censorship. It's not -- and I actually 24 find it very intriguing, hadn't thought of it in that 25 sense, but I could definitely, in the context of your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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20 1 question, I could see that in existence -- I can see 2 evidence of that here and there where people like 3 censor themselves.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

5 N Okay? Because they think 6 that nobody wants to hear it or they might create an 7 upset, okay?

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And in terms.

9 of it, what kind of instances come to mind? I mean 10 where are they self-censoring?

11 j Well, I can only give you 12 like specific examples that I'm aware of, and I get a 13 sense that maybe -- that what he's worried about may 14 exist locally.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. But in terms 16 of what you're aware of.

17 Yes. What I'm aware of, for 18 example, I bumped into to a QA assessment -- I bumped 19 into -- I'll go into the technical part first but the 20 technical part doesn't matter. What I'm interested in 21 is the behavior around it.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

23 7 The technical issues was 24 modifications to the off-site dose calculation manual 25 came up that in the audit that we bank changes. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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21 1 when I pulled the string on it, like I say, what do 2 you mean we bank changes, what does that mean? Well, 3 we put in the procedure like somebody notices that we 4 need to change the location of a TLD or something, 5 environmental monitoring program that's sort of like 6 running off and making the change for one line item in 7 the table we'll like bank and get ten or 12 changes 8 and do one revision, right?

9 And then I said, "Okay, so how do you do 10 that?" And they said, "Well, how we do it is we -- in 11 the annual report we'll note any changes but we won't 12 officially change the ODCM until it's worth making the 13 change because it costs a lot of money." And I said, 14 "Okay, I got that." And I said, "Well, look, I 15 noticed you've changed the ODCM twice, both of them in 16 the past year." I said, "Why didn't you pull out your 17 banked changes and put them in?" And they said to me, 18 "Well, there's one really important change that the 19 station radiation monitoring system is complex, and we 20 elected not to present all the minor stuff like this 21 telephone pole is no longer there so we had to move 22 the TLD over here, like all these minor changes." I 23 said, "Why did you do that," and they said, "Because 24 it would have made it difficult for us with SORC." I 25 said, "What does that mean," and they said, "Well, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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22 1 we're going to be at a three-hour SORC meeting just 2 for the RMS changes, and those guys will just like 3 drag us through the coals on all the other changes."

4 I said, "Well, don't do that. I'll support you.

5 We'll go to SORC. Don't do that."

6 So to me that was like a level of self-7 censorship. You know what I mean, like, in other 8 words, they're hard and this is going to be difficult, 9 right, and so I don't want to bear that. Does that 10 make sense? And I don't think it's like an acute 11 example, but I think it's -- to me it rang when Hub 12 was saying that. I said that's a good example, it's 13 not like an acute example but maybe there could be 14 more of that going on and then we as leaders have to 15 be accountable for that and make sure we're 16 responsible and take notice and do something about 17 that. Like who are we being as leaders that that 18 would -- that people would do that.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

20 Does that make sense?

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Sure.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I'm curious, you 23 said there was two changes, and you described one of 24 them as very complex and very involved, but what about 25 the second one, that there could have been an attempt NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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23 1 to take the bank changes and --

2 They didn't take the bank 3 changes. They had --

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What was the 5 second one regarding it, though? You said there was 6 two changes to the ODCM that year.

7 Oh, It was Salem and Hope 8 Creek.

9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Oh, oh, oh.

10 Okay.

11 Like, in other words, each 12 station changed their ODCM.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. So it's 14 for the same change, for the same underlying --

15 Yes.

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. I thought 17 you meant you were talking --

18 No, I apologize. No, no, no.

19 There was a Salem change we had to do with rad 20 monitoring that was a significant change.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

22 And there was I would call a 23 bank of small changes, like very small changes they 24 didn't manage when they went to SORC, they didn't take 25 it in. And then Hope Creek there was another reason, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A / 7 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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24 1 I forget offhand what the reason was, I would say it 2 was a large reason, I just can't remember what it is 3 offhand, and then there was all these little banked 4 small changes.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

6 So I thought that was an 7 example of self-censorship, like not dealing with 8 something because you were afraid of the way you'll 9 get treated or whatever, like that.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Sure.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was it the way they 12 would be treated or the procedures they were going to 13 be put through?

14 Both. Both.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

16 See, I have a weird opinion 17 on this. To me I'd say weird opinion. I actually say 18 like accountability and when you make things overly 19 complex really the real motive behind making things 20 too complex is to provide extra back doors to people 21 to exit from, not to be accountable. Okay? So to me 22 when it's very complex, okay, that's not conducive to 23 a safety culture environment either. Should make it 24 simple, like simple --

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Like conducive to --

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25 1 r C Conducive to making things 2 work.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's what you're 4 saying. And in this instance, the fear of how they 5 would be treated, can you be more specific about the 6 treatment? Was it in terms of some sort of adverse 7 action or something for whoever had to run this issue 8 forward?

9 I'll give you my personal 10 opinion, okay, in my experience only. I don't know 11 what it was on -- I can't speak for what was on their 12 mind, right?

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who are we talking 14 about? Who were the people involved?

15 The people involved were the 16 engineers in charge of the off-site dose calculation 17 manual and the environmental report. His name isJv 18 And his supervisor at the time would have 19 eel I wasn't associated with the group 20 at the time.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

22 works for me now, okay?

23 works for me now, but this took place, I 24 lieve, lat spring, summer, like the SORC 25 presentations. I don't know what was on their mind NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 0 (( 7 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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26 1 other than what they said. What they said was, "We 2 elected not to go because of the complexity, how much 3 more complicated it would make the SORC, and it was 4 really important that we get these big changes 5 through."

6 In the broad sense, let me offer you this, 7 like, for example -- how do I say this without --

8 well, the straight of it is I take a lot of personal 9 accountability for the corrective action program. I 10 haven't been associated with it for a number of years, 11 but when I say personal accountability the current 12 like design of the program is something I brought back 13 from -- they sent me to an INPO senior plant manager 14 course. It was a seven-week course at the time and 15 after that course it was really clear I had to make a 16 difference in our program called corrective action.

17 So I did. I took ownership for it. There was nobody 18 really owning it at the time. And then when*

19 back during restart 20 came in I said, "Here's what I'm up to. As soon as 21 you get somebody that catches up to me, I would like 22 to turn it over to you because you really should own 23 the corrective action program, but I need to fix it."

24 Cutting that short, I have a particular commitment to 25 it being really highly effective, and I noticed when NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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27 1 I came back into the station how ineffective it was.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And when was your 3 INPO assignment?

4 5 7c- SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

6 i So we made a major change to 7 corrective action in major, okay? And I brought 8 in a human error reduction training, I brought in 9 failure mode training for organizational programmatic 10 failures, equipment failure training. I did the -- I 11 went out like gangbusters. Like the stuff you see in 12 the current program got there because I like made sure 13 it got there, okay?

14 At any rate, I came back and I noticed it 15 looked goofy. And when I say goofy it wasn't 16 producing results. It seemed like it had kind of, in 17 my context, kind of frozen, and it seemed like -- I 18 like to say things in analogs but for me when you have 19 good players, like good people that work for you, good 20 players tend to want to win the game they're playing.

21 They tend to want to win, right? So to me what was 22 occurring was that everyone was working hard, playing 23 hard to win but we had somehow changed the game, like 24 changed the game, so we weren't producing the results, 25 meaning like things getting really fixed and stay NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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28 1 fixed, that kind of thing. So I actually -- in the 2 context of your question, this does land for me and my 3 personal experience, I actually was asked to lead a 4 level 2 investigation on a matter, I can't remember 5 what it was at the moment -- oh, I know what it was.

6 I wasn't actually asked to lead it, I was asked to 7 actually coach somebody to present, and it actually 8 had to do with a leakage on a valve, okay? It was 9 level 2. And I went to the CARB, the sub-CARB --

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What was the time 11 frame of this?

12 This was like a year ago.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

14 Yes. And this is what kind 15 of got me going, got me like fired up, if you will.

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

17 And I went to the CARB 18 Subcommittee which reviewed level 2s or apparent 19 causes, and of course if you go look at the program --

20 I'm real familiar with the program because I designed 21 it, right, like with the apparent causes it's from 22 readily available data, like take a stab at the cause, 23 call it apparent, take corrective action. If it's a 24 serious consequence, try to create some corrective 25 action in the recurrence but if you're not sure, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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29 1 don't. In other words, if you're not sure what the 2 diagnosis is, don't do that, because you could 3 actually create malpractice, you could actually 4 poison. If you're not sure what something is, you 5 don't want to give global medicine. You don't want to 6 give liver pills to everyone here because they may not 7 have a liver ailment if you know what I mean, like you 8 don't know.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Sure.

10 Right? So I went to the 11 meeting and I helped the person -- I actually like the 12 person who was presenting presented and I helped. I 13 kind of like spoke up and coached them.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was the person 15 that had to present it?

16 (phonetic).

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

18 And I noticed that the CARB 19 was not interested in what either of us were saying, 20 okay? Particularly, the CARB Chairperson was looking 21 for a specific answer, like, "Isn't it this?" And I'd 22 say, "No, it's not that," right? "This is an apparent 23 cause. The apparent cause is X." "Well, isn't it 24 this," and I kept saying, "No. Is there something 25 wrong with the way I'm speaking or is there something NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A I 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 wrong with the acoustics in here."

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was the 3 i J\

4 It was who is a 5 good guy but it was very bazaar behavior. It was like 6 they were looking for a specific answer. And so I 7 said, "Do you want to talk about the event and the 8 valve and what the apparent cause was?" And they 9 said, "No. We're interested in the corrective action 10 and the apparent recurrence," and I said, "There is 11 none," right? And they said, "Why not?" And I said, 12 "Because this is an apparent cause by some readily 13 available data, and we have insufficient data to 14 prevent anything like this from happening again."

15 They said, "Well, how's that?" I said, "Well, if you 16 really want a corrective action program with 17 recurrence, perhaps you should lump this with some 18 other issues and concerns you have that might be 19 similar and do a level 1 and get an updated --

20 actually create a diagnosis that would provide that 21 for you." He said, "Well, I'm not sure your boss 22 would like that." I said, "Well, it doesn't matter 23 what my boss wants. It's the right thing to do, 24 you've got to do it, right?" And they said, "Well, 25 we're going to table this," and I said, "Well, before NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 you table this I want to say something. I'm actually 2 kind of disgusted in the way this went, and I don't 3 understand what the intention of this meeting is, 4 because I don't think it's being run correctly." And 5 I actually met with the jthe next day and 6 told him, "This is way off. It's almost as if you 7 like know what you want as an answer. You're not 8 interested in the investigation."

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was the C-10 may1q 11 (phonetic).

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And did the 13 issue -- when you were saying, "It's X," and they were 14 saying, "But isn't it this," what were they thinking i5 that it was? And why? What would be the reason 16 behind that?

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes. Maybe a 18 little bit more of the details would be helpful. I 19 mean was there -- what system was the valve on, and 20 what was the nature of the problem with it, do you 21 recall?

22 gm I believe it was a safety 23 injection valve.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So it would have 25 been Salem.

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1 Salem, SJ, and I believe the 2 issue was -- it was actually, come to think of it, I 3 think what the issue was it was written -- this was 4 one of the ones that I would say is an embarrassing 5 one. It was written based on a question that an NRC 6 inspector had, and what it had to do with was -- I 7 forget all the details but something like there's 8 groundwater, the groundwater impacted the unistrat and 9 there was like external damage to the component --

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

11 -- and it didn't get 12 repaired, and it kept on getting deferred.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

14 That kind of thing.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So was it some 16 sort of size and qualification type question or was it 17 -- was it more of an engineering question about a --

18 No.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- a hypothetical 20 circumstance or was it an actual valve performance 21 issue where there was some -- they had to do 22 something, either open or shut --

23 The problem statement was why 24 didn't this work get done when it was scheduled to get 25 done? That was the problem statement.

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33 1 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

2 That was the problem 3 statement.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Okay. I 5 understand.

6 Yes. And I think that the 7 intention of the NRC inspector, like the person --

8 that person's context was the person was looking for 9 long-standing issues that didn't get resolved.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: All right.

11 That was the context of the 12 inspector.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

14 Okay? And then the issue was 15 why didn't this get worked? And so we did an apparent 16 cause based on readily available data, and what we 17 came up with was there was a lack of proper 18 accountability structure to get it done. In 19 particular, what he came up with, the investigator 20 came up with that there was no accountability for 21 moving it from online to outage and back again. There 22 was no like accountability structure for it. And I 23 went and looked at it, sat down to get exactly what 24 was missing. Like any operator could take that order 25 and change it from one priority to the other and it NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4)11 7u 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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.4 1 would suddenly disappear off the online schedule, go 2 into the outage queue and then sit there and somebody 3 would deal with it, and then when it got close to 4 being looked at it could easily get changed back to an 5 online priority.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So what was the 7 CARB Subcommittee looking for? Did they have 8 something -- it sounds like they were looking for --

9

• They had an axe to grind of 10 some kind. I'm not sure what it was. They were 11 looking for something.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Did say 13 what he was looking for?

14 No. No. I met with him 15 afterwards, and he used to work for me, right, so I 16 said, "I've got to give it to you straight. This 17 meeting was like one of the poorest run meetings I've 18 ever seen, and it's inappropriate for you to ask 19 questions the way you did. I don't know what your 20 intention was but you're really way off base, okay, 21 because you're asking for something that's Pot 22 appropriate, and the way the whole meeting went it 23 doesn't work." And I told him to cut it out.

24 (Laughter.)

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What happened with NEAL R. GROSS A 7C-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS dl 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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35 1 that? What about the Level 1? Did you say where that 2 went?

3 Well, Level 2.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Going from the Level 5 2 you had recommended that what they needed to do was 6 gather all the issues and --

7 Well, I said, "If you're 8 looking for something like that, if that's what your 9 intention is, is you want to say -- like, if I'm 10 looking at this in a larger context and I'm not just 11 looking at this valve or what happened to this valve,"

12 and I actually gave them an answer about -- we gave 13 them an answer about accountability structure for 14 moving things around in terms of priority inside of 15 Operations, because that's who was allowed to do it 16 and that's who actually did it, like different 17 operators did it, okay? So we gave an answer. It was 18 actually probably was an ace, like an A minus apparent 19 cause inside the problem statement scope, right?

20 They were looking for something different.

21 It wasn't clear. It was very unclear what they were 22 looking for, but what I was driving them towards is if 23 you think you've seen other things here, then my 24 recommendation to you is you couple this with the 25 other things you're aware of and I'll be happy to take NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS clk\

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36 1 it. You give it to me and tell me that I own a Level 2 1, to go look at A, B, C, D and E in a different 3 problem statement. That's the appropriate way to 4 manage the corrective action program, and they said, 5 "That's not what we want to do. We're going to table 6 yours and we'll have to talk to your boss, okay, about 7 it."

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: You were in the 9 -- you were in your 10 position at the time.

21 I was.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So this sort of 13 was right up your alley --

14 Yes, exactly.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- in a way. You 16 know, I can almost foresee maybe what possible answers 17 they were looking for, but I don't know, I really 18 don't know for a fact. I mean maybe they were looking 19 for some sort of an answer that talked about how you'd 20 restrict who could make those changes?

21 No. No. They weren't. They 22 weren't looking for that, no. They were looking for, 23 I would call, a global fix for behavior, something 24 along that arena.

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37 1 right.

2 Okay?

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Because I mean 4 that would do that. If you restricted who could make 5 changes like that k--

6 No. That's where we were 7 headed, but they weren't interested.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. The other 9 thought I had would be usually if you put something in 10 outage usually you need a long lead time, maybe six 11 months. You have to provide some cut-off date prior 12 to the start of an outage to say, "I'm freezing the 13 scope on this date and it's six months prior," so you 14 know everything that's in there that's part of the 15 preplanned set of activities, and maybe it was put in 16 there within two months of the start instead of six 17 months, so it shouldn't have been allowed from that 18 standpoint. But you say it's not -- it was more a 19 behavior type --

20 They were looking for -- I 21 started actually going over what the corrective 22 actions were.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

24 They stopped me and asked me 25 other questions, and I'm pretty rigorous about this, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS lt 7 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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38 1 like when they ask me to do something I do it, and 2 then they ask me a new question and I wanted to answer 3 the question and then I said, "There is none. There 4 is no what we call a CAPR, a corrective action program 5 recurrence. There is a corrective action which I 6 think is germane. You need to hear it." And they 7 didn't want to hear about it. Like it was almost like 8 dismissed it, like it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I see.

10 Get what I'm saying?

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes.

12 And what the corrective 13 action was -- one of the corrective actions was was to 14 modify the program called Work Management to have it 15 so that the only person that- could authorize the 16 priority change, okay, outside of the online schedule 17 was the cycle lead, the operator at the superintendent 18 level. And the only one who could manage out of the 19 outage is the Outage Superintendent.

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

21 Right? Like, in other words, 22 it couldn't be just any operator. It had to go 23 through some management review.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: That' s what I was 25 getting at, the SORC restricting --

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-1 1 M Yes. And that was the 2 corrective action, but it was like, I recall, auditory 3 dysfunction.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

5 They were looking for 6 something else, okay? What I was present to was group 7 thinking.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

9 Okay? The Chair wanted 10 something. body was ballsy enough to redirect and 11 even listen to what I had to offer. So I said, "I'm 12 clear why the corrective action was goofy." I said to 13 MIN "What have you guys been reviewing?" He said, 14 "Well, this Subcommittee is real Level 2." I said, 15 "Well, right now I'm worried about every Level 2 16 you've touched." And I said, "So cut it out, don't 17 you do this again." I said, "Here's what I'm going to 18 do: I'm going to get this thing changed or else I'm 19 going to get the Subcommittee dismissed, right?" And 20 now it no longer exists. I did what I promised.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You changed it?

22 I changed it. Okay? Because 23 it -- and I talked to my new boss and said -- I 24 actually offered him this, I said, "I'm a pretty 25 confident guy in this area and what we've been doing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  :

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40 1 doesn't work. So if the managers come in and they 2 don't know hoW the corrective action program works or 3 how you do analysis and what the program structure is, 4 they shouldn't be on the Committee -- they shouldn't 5 be qualified to be on the Committee. So what I told 6 him was a really nice guy but he's not 7 qualified to be this Chair. He's just not qualified 8 to be this Chair because he's making decisions that 9 let me know that he's not qualified, that he doesn't 10 understand what he's doing.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And who did you tell 12 this to, your new manager, was that 13 My new manager 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And what kind of 15 response did you get from him?

16 He said, "I understand that.

17 I understand what you're telling me." He wasn't on 18 that committee or he wasn't on the committee that day, 19 so I should say that. I wasn't part of the 20 transaction, but I said that I have a concern about 21 this and -- actually, I said this, I said, "Here's the 22 deal. Now I got reexposed to the corrective action 23 program, I personally, me and 24 (phonetic), we're going to get this fixed in a year 25 and if we don't, you should fire the two of us. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS MA 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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41 1 if you don't -- if we aren't paying attention to the 2 deadline, I'll quit," because I'm competent, because 3

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Felt that strongly 5 about it.

6 - - felt that strongly about 7 it.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At what point in time 9 are you now? What are you talking about? When did 10 you give yourself a year?

11 September. September.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, okay. Two months 13 ago.

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Is it fixed?

15 J Well, the CARB is fixed. The 16 CARB Subcommittee is fixed. I've got a lot of work to 17 do.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, is the 19 Subcommittee fixed because it's no longer functioning 20 or are you saying it is functioning but it's 21 functioning properly?

22 1 Okay. I questioned the need 23 for a CARB Subcommittee for Level 2s. What are you 24 trying to get done with apparent causes? What's the 25 purpose? What's your intention? And when I really NEAL R. A GROSS TASRES COURT REPORTER ANDSTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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42 1 pulled the string on it and I examined -- I actually 2 interviewed a couple people that had gone through the 3 CARB, I would call an inquisition and it was like what 4 I detected was the CARB Subcommittee practiced, "Don't 5 confuse us with facts, give us the answer we're 6 looking for." That's the conversation.

7 So I said ot qualified to do this 8 anymore, I don't want him involved in this anymore.

9 If we train him and qualify him, no problem because 10 he's a good guy, but he just doesn't know what he's 11 doing. He's actually doing something poisonous.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So you were 13 talking about a situation where you're actually 14 reverting back to a decision that was made to put him 15 in the position and whether or not he had the training 16 and qualifications and experience to execute the role 17 the way it should have been.

18 Yes. And --

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And it may not 20 have been well defined. I mean that's another thing 21 you were kind of alluding to.

22 I think the CARB created it 23 one day and said, "We think the apparent causes are 24 all hosed up." And what they did was I think because 25 of the lack of knowledge and skills, they actually NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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4 J 1 turned it into like a little bit of a circus, okay?

2 You know what I mean? I'm sure not every one was like 3 that.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I'm sure that 5 wasn't the intent.

6 No.

7 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I'm sure the 8 intent was to improve the quality of the apparent 9 cause evaluation.

10 1 I'm sure the intention was 21 noble but the result was that kind of behavior which 12 doesn't work.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How long did that 14 function? I mean at one point you -- whatever 15 happened to you when you ran the Level 2 through the 16 Committee caused you to question whatever else they 17 might have done before on other levels.

Right.

18 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How long would that 20 have been an issue where it was - -

21 -2I don't know when they 22 created the Subcommittee, I never really researched 23 that, but I would say six months, seven months is what 24 I'm experienced database that I started looking at 25 once I -- u NEAL R. GROSS T COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: jIM as on the 2 Committee?

3 Well, I don't know how long 4 he was on the Committee, but I had the conversation 5 with him the next day. I had the conversation with 6 the the next day and told him that this 7 doesn't work and that we had to change it right away.

8 And I got a commitment from that he would not 9 tolerate what I call the CARB directing an answer.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

11 They can challenge an answer 12 but it'Is not workable. You have a methodology, you 13 provide your facts and then people can challenge it, 14 but they weren't interested in that. They were 15 interested in, "Tell us this. Where's this?"

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: To your 17 knowledge, was there any specific direction in the 18 corrective action procedure, the implementing 19 procedure for the corrective action program --

20 es. That's been changed.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- that talked 22 about what the purpose of this subcommittee was in 23 very specific terms so that someone could pick it up 24 and read it and understand what their mission was, 25 whether they be a member or the Subcommittee Chairman?

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-Z.j 1 Yes, I think that exists and 2 more or less was what you alluded to, which was the 3 quality of the --

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay? Did it 5 talk about how to implement that, how to -- techniques 6 to use, preparation?

7 I noticed the CARB procedure 8 itself is highly prescriptive, probably overly 9 prescriptive.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

11 But, no, it wasn't highly 12 prescriptive.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Should someone 14 who's a member of the Subcommittee have used the CARB 15 procedure as a reference to say, "This is how the CARB 16 does their business and I'm the subcommittee of that, 17 therefore I ought to model my behavior or my 18 understanding kind of off their procedure."

19 Yes and no. The real 20 intention of the CARB is to review root causes, right?

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Normally Level 1.

22 Level ls, right. And it's 23 different. And, actually, why I got kind of charged 24 up about it was I noticed that over time some elements 25 of the procedure had changed to what I call -- in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 simple terms it's like this: You're a doctor, right?

2 You get training for years and years and years to go 3 examine patients and gather data, right? You gather 4 the data by talking to the patient, you gather the 5 data by taking temperature, taking blood tests, 6 various tests, right? And the key to it all is a good 7 diagnosis, right? Same thing occurs in root cause 8 space. You need really qualified people to gather 9 data, right, so they can make a quality diagnosis, 10 because if you don't make a quality diagnosis and you 11 prescribe medicine or surgery, you can hurt someone if 12 you do it wrong, right?

13 Actually, it's worse in our world, okay, 14 because our corrective action can impact lots more 15 things than one patient, right? Like you'd be 16 diagnosing for one patient and recommending liver 17 pills for everybody in the hospital. That's kind of 18 like what our corrective action can be if you're not 19 careful, right? So the thing is an apparent cause the 20 way the program was designed it was designed like most 21 of them in the industry, which is be careful because 22 you only do -them on available data. Fix the 23 condition. Fix the condition. If it's a very serious 24 consequence, see if you can create a CAPR, but if you 25 don't have sufficient data, don't. We had actually NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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47 1 added a scoring sheet for Level 2s based on a good 2 intention that had us -- basically had it so you 3 couldn't really get a good score unless you created a 4 CAPR, corrective action program recurrence. Almost 5 like it was a flunk if you didn't.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So that was 7 forcing them against the logic of don't use a CAPR if 8 you don't have --

9 If you don't have sufficient 10 data to --

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- sufficient data.

12 Right. So that would change 13 that too.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. You took out 15 that pressure.

16 That pressure, right. But 17 that pressure existed. To me that's like malpractice.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Isn't there --

19 Yes. So my viewpoint on 20 safety conscious environment is probably a weird one.

21 It's from a different vantage point you normally hear.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: If you can back 24 up to where the NRC sees corrective action coming 25 from, I mean primarily we could see that come out of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 Appendix B, Criterion 16.

2 Sixteen.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: But if you kind 4 of really read what it says, it kinds of 5 differentiates between two different levels of action.

6 Absolutely.

7 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: You know, it 8 talks about conditions adverse to quality and 9 significant conditions adverse to quality.

10 Correct.

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And the 12 significant conditions adverse to quality talks about 13 kind of that you have to provide actions to prevent 14 recurrence.

15 { { Correct.

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So that would go 17 with in your terms your Level 1 root cause evaluation 18 where you do your very detailed root cause and you 19 come up with a list of corrective actions and actions 20 to prevent recurrence. Level 2, which is not -- it's 21 just conditions adverse to quality without the word, 22 "significant," in front of it --

23 Right.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- is the 25 apparent cause. It was apparently caused by this, and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I 1 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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49 1 the corrective actions follow. But it doesn't 2 necessarily -- I mean it might be beneficial to have 3 an action prevent recurrence --

4 Right.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- but it 6 wouldn't, at least by Criterion 16, be mandated. What 7 you're describing is that in this forum with the way 8 the Subcommittee was being run it was kind of like the 9 hidden way to get the 10 (END TAPE 1, SIDE A) 11 (BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE B) 12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So was there 13 actually a score?

14 Absolutely.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. And it was 16 all based on whatever the different criteria were that 17 were --

18 Yes.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay, provided.

20 Okay. All right.

21 Yes. So I would say that 22 created an environment that what I would say was not 23 the right -- in my world, it doesn't promote a safety 24 conscious environment or safety culture. Really, the 25 way it occurred to me was like they had an agenda, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 like they were looking for something in particular, 2 like --

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Hidden agenda or 4 whatever?

5 idden agenda. They were 6 looking for a corrective action that looked like X but 7 they wouldn't tell us. I created the CARB, that was 8 one of the things I brought here, right? I stole it.

9 I'm not going to say I didn't steal it from another 10 plant, okay? Stole it from Byron, okay, and what I 11 observed at other plants is the whole tone of the CARB 12 was different. It was like our interest is fixing the 13 thing and all the coaching that occurred was during 14 the action, towards making sure it really got fixed, 15 right? So it was all coaching towards getting it 16 fixed. Like in other words, the impression you got 17 from being in the meeting and when I ran the CARBs 18 when we first had them, my job was to make sure in the 19 end it was clear that we were on a pathway to success 20 in fixing it and that the person who was in the chair 21 who was the investigator felt like he got helped when 22 he left the meeting. Like he felt like, "Guess what, 23 that was difficult, a lot of very challenging 24 questions, but we really improved the quality of the 25 product. That was hard but I feel like we're better NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 off." That was like the intention. This was more 2 like, "No, that's the wrong answer. No, no, that's a 3 wrong answer. Guess what the right answer is."

4 That's what the experience for me was.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

6 Do you understand what I'm 7 saying?

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in your 9 experience do you attribute that, the change from your 10 prior working with the CARB, is that going to an 11 individual or is that going to a mindset? Is there 12 more than -- what do you attribute it to?

13 I think it's a couple things.

14 I think one is training qualifications. I think it 15 definitely is a hole in this particular case, 16 individual. I actually went to -- I'm a CARB member 17 again. Went to my first CARB yesterday. Didn't go 18 particularly well, but I met with " today and 19 said, "Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go 20 meet with the Chairs, the plant managers and I'm going 21 to for a couple week coach them on how to stay on 22 track." Like there's an agenda in the CARB procedure 23 but the good intent is fine, right, but it's almost 24 like -- what I'm used to is having a clear intent and 25 an outcome for the meeting and like you measure your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 performance based on did you meet the intention and 2 outcome or not, right? And what I found was just a 3 long conversation and something was tabled, and that 4 doesn't work for me. I don't have a problem if you 5 table it in a specific action, like nobody knows 6 exactly what to do --

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But this was a no 8 result.

9 9 Like a no result ending, 10 which doesn't work for me.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

12 . So like I sat wit 44this 13 morning for like an hour and I said, "Here's what was 14 missing for me, and I want permission to run goofy for 15 a while."

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: He wasn't the 17 18 r

Chairman, was he?

-eHe was a member like me.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. All right.

I 20 But there was others that were --

21 ~ The Plant Manager was the 22 Chair.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: All right. Okay.

24 Was this Hope Creek or Salem?

25 _ Hope Creek. I C',-

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53 1 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. All right.

2 So that's just a matter of refining the context of the 3 CARB?

4 Yes. Yes.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And he's fairly 6 new too.

7 He's fairly new, right.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I mean he may not 9 be familiar with the concept.

10 Plus they made some decisions 11 which were outside the meeting, like when they were 12 doin4 some prep work where they split things up and 13 they actually gave the team, the root cause team a 14 problem statement which was narrow and they created 15 two or three different Level is and they created them 16 very specific and narrow and they started asking me 17 questions about the other two, the problem statements 18 in Level 1 they had. And I said, "Excuse me, is this 19 on Page 1, on the bottom, this paragraph, is this 20 indeed the correct problem statement, because we 21 should be talking about this problem statement.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: They were branching 23 off.

24 Yes. It wasn't disciplined.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

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1 You know what I mean? And, 2 actually, I wouldn't have narrowed the program 3 statement down like they did because it kind of like 4 made the conversation goofy, the way they narrowed it 5 down.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Very stilted is 7 what you're saying. So it was artificial or whatever.

8 Yes, but it was not like what 9 I described with O and the valve. It was more 10 like they had actually given direction to the 11 maintenance manager to go write one on this, write one 12 on this and write one on this. This one was coming in 13 and it was specifically on why do we continue to put 14 equipment back in service that hasn't been properly 15 maintained? That was the issue. And then they took 16 out some procedure used in adherence issue, wrote it 17 up as a global common cause, but they didn't want to 18 talk about that. They wanted to talk about how could 19 this piece of equipment and other pieces of equipment 20 like it been returned to service in this condition?

21 It had to do with MG set ventilation fans. And the 22 team came back with the narrow scope that they had 23 defined, okay? And then they were kind of like asking 24 questions over here. It was kind of like disciplined, 25 you know what I mean? They didn't have an agenda but NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 I think they made a tactical error in dividing them 2 up, you know what I mean? Like here's what you should 3 do? If you ask somebody to do something, you should 4 allow them to actually present what you asked them to 5 do.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Broaden the scope is 7 what you're saying, not narrow it for them.

8 But that's okay. If you make 9 a tactical decision saying, "Here's the scope, it's 10 this big," right, and they come back with this big, 11 then you should honor and regard them for doing what 12 you asked them to do. And if you've changed your 13 mind, you probably should say, "I'm going to change 14 the schedule, ask him to -- I'm going to meet with 15 them separately, change their scope and not waste 16 CARB's time."

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Or if you had 18 three pieces to it, have all three team leaders there 19 20 Yes.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- and all 22 prepared to discuss --

23 j All the elements.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- all the 25 elements at the same time. And that way if something NEAL R. GROSS At-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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bb 1 comes up and that one person is not there, they ask 2 the other person.

3 = Right. So to me it's 4 important to be rigorous, to be rigorous in the 5 conversation. If you told them to look at X and you 6 negotiated a certain methodology they were going to 7 use, then hold them to it, hold them accountable to 8 what you asked for and see if they give a quality 9 product. And if you don't think it's complete, then 10 the job of the CARB is to ask enough questions to 11 drive it to getting at what the action is, create that 12 action, create a firm promise so you forward the 13 action, not so it's tabled. To me it disgusts me to 14 have items tabled, tabled, tabled. It's almost like 15 give me a yellow stone; no, no, no, give me a white 16 stone; no, no, no, give me a blue stone. To me it's 17 not forwarding the action.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

19 So to me it's essential the 20 action always be forwarded to fix something 21 completely. It's not about a -- it's not an 22 intellectual debate about --

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

24 -- the psychology of 25 accountability of whatever, you know what I mean?

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1 It's like about some method used and a product created 2 and an outcome. So I would say that's -- in answer to 3 your question, had the TQ issue, training 4 qualification issue.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

6 ( I think, though, there is 7 some level mindset that exists that people -- I think 8 it's more like mimicry, like where people mimic a 9 behavior because it appears to be what people want to 10 see. Like I want to call it the inquisition type 11 behavior versus the -- to me a CARB is driving 12 accountability for getting something fixed, that's 13 like the outcome, versus like inquisition is one 14 question, another question, another question, you 15 don't know where it's going. You're kind of guessing 16 what they want. It's like a -- my experience that day 17 was this wasn't about fixing the problem, this was 18 about showing us how stupid we were that we didn't 19 understand what the question was.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this would be on 21 the day that 22 Yes.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On that day.

24 Yes.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. I I (I .,-

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1 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: This just the 2 back of where you're talking about, where you're 3 talking this recent CARB, was that within the last 4 week or month or --

5 # Yesterday.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Oh, okay.

7 The one on the MG sets?

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: All right.

9 Yes. That was yesterday.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Where they didn't 11 work it within the scope of what they had originally 12 asked for.

13 Well, the team worked in the 14 scope, but the CARB was asking questions around --

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The team did but the 16 CARB came back with --

17 Yes.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- something 19 different.

20 DQuestions. They were asking 21 questions about the other one that they had created.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you're 23 looking at the whole CARB problem. You're calling it 24 -- well, for* - it was like a training and 25 qualifications issue, and now it's a -- your job is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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59 1 more you need to get them to focus on the way they 2 should be getting it done; is that it?

3 ojjJ Yes. I mean I made a 4 promise. Nobody asked me to make that promise. I 5 made a promise to my boss one year I'm going to turn 6 this thing around, because I'm disgusted, okay? So I 7 want this to be effective. I don't want a show. I'm 8 not interested in a show.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes. And that ends 10 in a no result.

11 es.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Or a tabling of 13 issues.

14 Actually, I've actually had 15 this conversation with both of my managers when they 16 first started. Here's what I said: "I'm an unusual 17 guy, I say unusual things, but I do it for a purpose."

18 I said, "I have the secret to your success and I'd 19 like to share it with you. And here are the two 20 secrets, here are the two secrets you need to know."

21 One is what I said before is that I asked each person 22 what they thought about their staff. I asked, "Okay, 23 tell me what do you think about the quality of people 24 here, and I want a straight answer. Don't give me 25 sugarcoated." He said, "I'm actually very impressed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS Rl' 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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60 1 with the quality of people here, extremely impressed."

2 And I said, "Who are you talking, just the managers, 3 the techs?" He said, "Talked to operators, techs,"

4 I said, "Okay. So you're really impressed with the 5 quality of people here." "Excellent." I said, "And 6 you'll find when you talk to INPO or NRC that's what 7 got their head -- got their finger scratching their 8 head. They have good people, why can't they nail some 9 of these things?" That's what the NRC often asks, 10 right? "They have very good people but seem to have 11 a problem nailing things," right? So I had the answer 12 to that question.

13 So good people always win the game they're 14 playing. I'll repeat that: Good people, good players 15 always win the game they're playing. So the question 16 probably is not whether you have the right players, 17 the question is do I have them playing the right game, 18 right? And I say you don't. And I say that the 19 secret is you shift the game from promise equals one 20 point -- players always look at the scoreboard to see 21 whether they're scoring points or not. Tells them 22 whether their behaviors match what you want or not, so 23 we've been giving them a point for a promise. So they 24 promise everything and if you go look at the number of 25 promises that get fulfilled, it's a tiny fraction of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 the thousands we make every week, right? I said you 2 change the scoreboard so they only get a point when 3 they keep a promise. The whole game will shift. It 4 will a shift in a matter of months, okay?

5 Number two, we enroll the players into 6 they're not good enough to be number one, and that was 7 a lie, so we should enroll them in what the truth is.

8 Those are the two secrets to changing our performance, 9 and that's what I firmly believe. So in this realm of 10 CARB, corrective action, there's nothing wrong with 11 the people; we're playing the wrong game. The game is 12 making promises instead of actually delivering on 13 something. In other words, I call it, another word 14 for it, looking good versus being your word. Looking 15 good versus being your word. If you have an interest 16 in looking good, then make a promise. If nobody's 17 checking on it, you don't have the accountability 18 structure to check on all the promises, you can score 19 thousands of points this month.

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: But the program 21 has provisions that provides for the checking, right?

22 Isn't there a --

23 Talkin about g corrective a

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62 1 a verification that's done six months after or can be 2 done - -

3 Yes. Usually it's done after 4

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What if you go 6 back and you actually look and say, "Okay, look, I 7 laid all these corrective actions and they're supposed 8 to fix this problem. Now I'm going to go back six 9 months later, I'm going to look and see what the data 10 says. Does the data reflect that I was successful and 11 that's your point, did I keep my promises to fix this 12 problem?"

13 Yes. And I think it has been 14 done, but I think if you really look personally, 15 there' s more of a focus on I would call the due date 16 promise than did it work, okay? Like, for example, 17 our behavior -- my experience now, this is not like 18 -- this is experience I'm talking about, right 19 -- we seem to get more points for nine corrective 20 actions as opposed to three that really matter. So 21 I'll make nine promises, right, nine due dates. Did 22 I make all my due dates? There's more a focus on that 23 than did I really, really nail it?

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

25 If you go look, people always

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63 1 pay attention to what you inspect. What we have been 2 inspecting in the corrective action program heavily is 3 due dates.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Because they're 5 easy.

6 Yes. Well, I have one here 7 -- I have one that I now own and I go look at it, and 8 it was closed out by writing a Level 2 plan, finished 9 like four or five different actions. And of those 10 four or five different actions, three of them hadn't 11 been done yet. They hadn't been done like as of like 12 a week ago, right? So I asked the person who used to 13 be in that area, I said, "Why would somebody do that?"

14 I said, "Because we were told we can't get a due date 15 extension. So we created like another corrective 16 action, close out that one because we wrote the 17 detailed plan." I said, "That's not workable." But 18 the first ones I got was to implement molar ratio 19 control at Salem. I was charged to do that. And I 20 said, "Okay, I can probably figure that one out." And 21 then it was already overdue, so I got a call from the 22 corrective action program, "It's overdue, what are you 23 going to do about it?" I said, "I'm going to actually 24 do it, but I'm not going to do anything with the 25 extension until I know for real by when I can do it."

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64 1 So I called up the plant manager and said, 2 "This is going to remain overdue. In one week, if you 3 agree, I'll give you a new promise date, but I'm not 4 going to give you a promise date that won't absolutely 5 be done by that date. I'm not going to manage the due 6 date, I'm going to manage to get it done." He said, 7 "Okay, fine. One week." Actually, six days later I 8 called him and I said, "It will be done by this date, 9 October 2." October 1 I called him up and said, "This 10 is done," right? I'm used to like -- and it was done 11 and it actually worked. That's where my head is at.

12 I think we actually started inspecting one aspect of 13 the program primarily, and we got exactly what -- we 14 actually won that game.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you were looking 16 at due dates and you were making due dates, but you 17 weren't closing actions.

18 Right. We won that game.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Just calling them 20 another action. I see.

21 So we won the game we were 22 playing. Okay? So my game --

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You make your point.

24 I see what you're saying.

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65 1 boss was I know enough -- I know what to do to make --

2 to change the game, and I guarantee I can change the 3 game. If I don't, show me the door. Please show me 4 the door. Mercifully show me the door.

5 (Laughter.)

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the reception to 7 that that you got?

8 Very good. Very, very good.

9 Like, "Wow."

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that's fro g 11 12 JYes 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about your 14 reactions that you get from the plant managers?

15 Well, the reaction I got from 16 both my managers on my little two secrets was very 17 good. They actually, I think, got a lot out of that 18 conversation.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Could you name them 20 again. It's and --

21 - ~and 22 (phonetic).

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

24 ) Actually, I think both of 25 them not only said they got a lot out of the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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bb 1 conversation, you could tell from their body language 2 that they were really in the conversation, like they 3 really got the intention of the conversation.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: ot 5 been around very long, maybe a month or so.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, that's a new man, 7 right?

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: An 9 been around a long time but different positions.

10 Positions, exactly.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And I think I cut you 12 off. You were adding something t 13 reaction, I'm sorry.

14 No, he was thrilled. As a 15 matter of fact, when we met today he said, 16 m J and I know 17 you've already promised me a year, right," and he 18 said, "I'm thrilled because N going to need the 19 help because we're going to have to shift the culture 20 a lot," and he said, "I'm thrilled that you're so 21 passionate about this." That's what he said to me 22 this morning. And I am, I'm highly passionate. You 23 probably can tell.

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b 1 before. There were what you were terming self-2 censored issues. Do you have any other examples where 3 that might have happened?

4 Well, honestly, that one I 5 just described I would consider an example of it. In 6 other words, don't you dare go back and ask for an 7 extension, right, is a level of self-censorship of 8 sorts, right?

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

10 I mean I actually started 11 looking at things in a new context when Hub gave that 12 as a key concern of his.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

14 And I started looking 15 backwards, and I would say that -- so here it is, 16 right? It's not working, I'm struggling, my date due 17 is being challenged, okay? So I would expect people 18 to say, "Guess what, boss? I'm not going to meet the 19 due date, I need help. Here's the barriers in my way, 20 and could we agree to a new due date? And here's the 21 help I need from you." That's the conversation I 22 -would expect. That's not the conversation that 23 occurred. The conversation that occurred was, "He's 24 not going to let us. He told us already no 25 extensions, right. So we'll just complete the Level NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 2 plan, create some more actions, right, so it's like 2 hidden from view, right?" In other words, what the 3 obstacles or barriers are, what's not working remains 4 hidden. Does that make sense? So to me it wasn't 5 like anybody deliberately did anything wrong, but it's 6 like a -- I think it's like a -- to me it fits in my 7 definition --

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, it's sort 9 of you develop a self-protection scheme.

10 Yes.

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Because you're 12 putting something down as, quote, complete in the 13 system when it's really not. You're using a tool, a 14 technique, if you will, to buy time when it wouldn't 15 be available to you in another way.

16 Right.

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And it's because 18 of the apparent or the perception that there's a lack 19 of willingness to either want to bring the issue 20 forward and ask for a due date extension or maybe, 21 well, kind of this self-censorship type issue that 22 you're referring to where someone's feeling like, 23 "Hey, I can't do that. It's not within the system to 24 get that kind of extension or my boss said, 'I'm not 25 going to give it to you."' "\\

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1 -Yes. And I'd rather -- like 2 I told the person who owns it now, I said, "Look, on 3 the action that you have right now, if you have any 4 problems, come to me and ask help. If you feel like 5 there's something in the way that's going to prevent 6 you from meeting the date, come to me but own the 7 breakdown. Like if you devise a plan and it starts to 8 break down, come to me and say, 'Hey, my plan's not 9 working, and I own it and right now it's not going to 10 make the deadline. Here's the help I need, here's the 11 extension."' If you do that frequently, then I'm 12 going to wonder whether you have the skills or the 13 commitment or follow-up to get it done.

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Let's talk a 15 little bit about that, about plans not working and 16 things like that. You know, one of the things that we 17 see in the operation of the power plant is in 18 different challenges at different times of the year, 19 like say, for instance, in the spring of every year 20 there's always a problem at Salem with grassing and 21 there's plans that are developed and obviously there's 22 procedures that are always in effect and there's 23 different approaches that are taken to deal with the 24 issues.

25 Sure.

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IV 1 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Some relate to, 2 "Okay, well, we can put extra people out there."

3 Others are like, "Hey, we've done enough of this.

4 Maybe we need to start moving the unit around in 5 response to the problems we're having." Do you have 6 a sense of how that's gone in recent years, and do you 7 think things have gone appropriately or has the 8 station followed their plans?

9 91 can only give you my 10 context, right?

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

12 Okay. Because I don't know 13 what all the conversations are, right? My experience 14 would be in the past two years mostly and mostly in

-15 - because we would have grassing common 16 and would obviously, a lot of times would have a major 17 impact on the schedule. Because suddenly you'd be 18 diverting resources to deal with it.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

20 And then I would say --

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: But aren't most 22 of those Operations resources?

23 No. You'd actually -- if 24 something broke and you're having grassing --

25 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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-- MMEMEtM 1 -- you'd have to go fix what 2 was broke, like no kidding, immediately --

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

4 -- like that kind of thing.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: All right.

6 Like a circulator, like a 7 circulator outlet pipe develops a large leak and it's 8 out a valve, big butterfly valve fails, like that.

9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

10 And it's in grassing season, 11 right? I guess my experience is twofold. I have an 12 interesting context for this one because I went to the 13 INPO senior plant manag course right after the 14 grassing event in '94. It was like immediately 15 afterwards and there was ten leaders in the room and 16 I was the only person that wasn't like in a station 17 manager role already and for two days they pummeled 18 me, like, "How dare you operate -- keep on operating 19 with the circulators -- losing circulators." They 20 wanted to know what was wrong with us. INPO, the 21 course leader apologized to me at every break at the 22 nighttime and said, "We're trying to control them but 23 just let them go a little bit, let them vent a little 24 bit," so I played along with it. So I have a very 25 high sensitivity to the issue to begin with.

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72 1 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

3 So what I've noticed lately 4 is there's relatively little hesitation on the 5 operator's viewpoint to turn the unit down in power if 6 they're challenged excessively. And of course that's 7 all a big -- like a curve, like challenge, challenge, 8 and at some point there's certain things that have to 9 reduce power and there's certain times where you can 10 be conservative and reduce power before that point.

11 My experience is they've changed a lot since eight, 12 nine years ago, whatever that was, okay? I don't know 13 all everybody's individual experiences, though. Could 14 have been an individual experience I'm not aware of, 15 okay, but in a broad context it seems to have gotten 16 much more conservative, okay?

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

18 Which in my world is good.

19 I haven't seen any personally thatIs been pushed back.

20 Like the impact on me was all this work that I 21 promised would get done got chucked to deal with that.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

23 And so to me, okay, this is 24 the right thing to do even though I promised. Now I 25 have to go reschedule all that stuff I promised would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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73 1 get done, but it still has to be dealt with. What's 2 on the table right now has to be dealt with.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Have you ever 4 felt like there's been times that you can recall in 5 the last year or two, either spring of say this year, 6 2003, or maybe 2002, when maybe when you were in some 7 way involved, whether it be work week or what have 8 you, and there was maybe heroic efforts involved to 9 try and do something at circ water to say, "Hey, let's 10 just keep the plan in line at all costs, almost to the 11 exclusion of either following the procedure or whether 12 it's discretion and procedure. Maybe we ought to be 13 taking the units offline or maybe we ought to be down 14 -powering or maybe we ought to be doing this or doing 15 that." Again, this kind of goes to like challenges to 16 the work environment.

17 Sure.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Production over 19 safety. Is there a situation -- anything like that --

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you recall any 21 recent concerns of yours on how the grassing incidents

• 22 were handled?

23 I know that in the past year 24 or so -- and when I say year or so, I know at least 25 grassing season that we had -- oftentimes we staffed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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'4 1 the outage control center. Like the first time we had 2 a grassing event, we staffed the center extensively.

3 Subsequent ones we staffed it, I would call it, 4 marginally.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

6 Ef 3 The intention was to make 7 sure the operators had everything they needed. While 8 I'm talking to you I'm actually seeing lots of ways to 9 look at this that I hadn't maybe looked at when I was 10 looking at my work, looking at the work that I 11 promised to get done. I mean I remember several times 12 operators taking early conservative actions in terms 13 of power reductions, right? I'm trying to think, I 14 guess I can't remember whether it was a specific 15 challenge and they didn't, but that could be just I 16 wasn't aware of the data.

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So is it your 18 sense that they have responded appropriately and maybe 19 at times conservatively when challenged with these 20 situations? Have you ever -- is there any time in 21 memory that you felt like -- I mean other than going 22 way back but I mean recent, in the last year or two, 23 when you felt like, geez, they really overdid it this 24 time. They shouldn't have kept the plan on and they 25 did.

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75 1 Like heroic efforts to keep 2 it online.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Exactly.

4 Right. I'm just not privy to 5 it. It could have happened. I'm just not privy to 6 it.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you recall -- if 8 you're not specifically recalling that they stayed 9 online when it wasn't appropriate to do so, do you 10 recall at any point in these recent grassings 11 expressing any frustration or any upsetment with the 12 amount of effort that was going into keeping the unit 13 online? Can you recall doing that with anyone at any 14 point in time?

15 j pLet me dwell on it for a 16 while.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes. Take your time 18 and think about it.

19 i I'm just trying to like think 20 of experiences, right. I mean walking into the 21 question they kind of all mush together, right? I 22 think I might recall someone having like a -- being 23 upset about some components not getting fixed. The 24 only thing I can think of is in the OCC, right, I can 25 recall conversations where there was triaging the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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76 1 components to get fixed and there was some upset about 2 the order that things would get fixed. I can remember 3 that. I could certainly see somebody who was upset 4 with that could perhaps view it, "Oh, gee whiz, they 5 weren't really trying to deal with this conservatively 6 like that." Like one of my weeks I know that we took 7 the unit off the line, we actually rtook it off the 8 line all together. Another time we did a power 9 reduction, another time we didn't do a power 10 reduction, but I don't remember many of the details of 11 the one we didn't take it -- I don't remember a lot of 12 the details of the week that we didn't take it off the 13 line.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Somebody might have 15 been upset over something not getting fixed.

16 Yes.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You're not saying it 18 was something that you felt. This was maybe somebody 19 else who might have had that concern?

20 My recollection, I mean you 21 might want to talk to them, would be the system 22 engineer.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Who's that?

24 I would say it would be 25 either (phonetic) or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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77 1 (phonetic). Those were the guys that were making it 2 well known what the order of things should be, and at 3 least one occasion I can remember -- I can't remember 4 if it was ^ - one of them was upset that we 5 made the wrong choice, you know, like A, B, C, D, like 6 they thought theirs should have been A or whatever 7 priority -- I don't mean priority A, priority B, I 8 mean the order which things would get executed. I 9 remember one case where one of the two was upset.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was there a point in 11 time where you were in agreement with them?

12 A I may have been. I'm just 13 not remembering. I apologize.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'm going to refresh 15 your recollection if I can.

16 Yes.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And what I want to 18 ask you about specifically is information that's been 19 reported to us.

20 s Okay.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Which is one of the 22 reasons that we came to you today.

23 Sure.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It was that the most 25 grassing season became of a concern to you in that it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 had gotten -- it got so bad, we'll just say, quote, 4

2 3

"so bad at one point" that the unit should have been taken offline and that you had questioned, "Why are we doing this in not taking it offline," is my 5 understanding. And the answer that you got to that 6 was more or less, "It doesn't matter; we're doing it."

7 Do you recall being in a position where you were 8 concerned about the functioning of the plant during 9 the season where you had to ask that question, "Why 10 are we doing what we're doing under these conditions?

11 Why are we going to these efforts when we've had 12 history here?"

13 D I remember there was at least 14 one of the periods, right, like when I was the duty 15 person, all the calls came to me. And as I recall, 16 one of the conditions, I can't remember the exact 17 time, it was sometime last spring but there was one 18 time --

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: As in 2003 or 20 2002?

21 Two thousand three.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. So the 23 most recent spring, okay.

24 Yes, the most recent spring.

25 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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79 1 PM.W Yes. I'm actually talking 2 about the most recent spring. And I remember what was 3 interesting about it was there was not just the usual 4 grassing, it was like a lot of jelly fish and a lot of 5 -- the water column -- the density of debris in the 6 water column was much denser than normal, way denser.

7 I don't remember which day it was but it was very 8 heavy. I'm pretty sure that's the time we actually 9 came offline, though. I don't know whether -- I mean 10 knowing me, you can see sometimes I just don't mind 11 flapping my mouth, I could have flapped my mouth like 12 that and not remembered it.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is there a time frame 14 for the grassing season? Can you put a date on when 15 did it start and when did it end? I mean you're 16 saying at some point they didn't take it offline and 17 then later on they did take.it offline.

18 I'm pretty sure on the one 19 that was really, I would say, a whopper of a grass hit 20 where you had not only the tritus near the surface, 21 you not only had the tritus at the bottom, you had 22 lots of jelly fish and stuff like that in the water 23 column in between, very high density.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. And when 25 would that have been?

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I---

1 It would have been this past 2 spring. I don't know which one it was but I can look 3 it up for you. I don't remember right now, but it was 4 very heavy. I know everyone had a lot of concern 5 about that one, and I'm going to guess that I probably 6 did too. I might have said something like that.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Question why are we 8 online?

9 1Now, I do know -- I'm pretty 10 sure on that one we actually took the unit off the 11 line.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

13 Pretty sure. Now, the 14 question is in my mind if I'm flapping, "Why are we 15 doing this," and then like six hours later we're 16 offline, I may have like fallen and said, "Okay, they 17 reacted. That's good."

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You got where you had 19 to go.

20 I don't know. I could have 21 flapped like that. I mean it's not unlike me to say 22 something like that.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Is it possible 24 that either knowingly or not that you through a 25 comment you made may have caused the unit to be taken NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 offline as being the management contact? I mean I 2 don't understand all the different communication 3 chains when you're in that role, but is it possible 4 you could have been talking to Ops and asking them 5 pointed questions, like, "Why" -- under these 6 circumstances, as you described with such heavy tritus 7 at all locations in the water column why you keep the 8 unit online, and maybe you're not giving yourself 9 enough credit that just through your actions you in 10 fact-- - 7 C--'

11 2 I could have. Honestly, to 12 tell you the truth, if I did some research on the 13 dates and stuff, I could probably recall more. But 14 like, for example, sometimes I get a phone call, I get 15 a beep at 2:30 in the morning and I'm just very --

16 normally, I'm just very like raw, like not nasty but 17 just like I say whatever is in my head at that --

18 that's normally how I am, right? So I'm in the middle 19 of a deep sleep and somebody says something that 20 doesn't sound logical, I'll say something and some 21 people might say, "Wow, that' s a funny way to say it."

22 And I could have said that and I could have -- like 23 it's import to me -- I could have influenced the guy 24 more than I even remember influencing him. I don't 25 know.

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82 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

2 Possible.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I don't think we're 4 talking about a middle of the night type of a 5 conversation. It's more an overall, "Here's the 6 situation, this is what I see. We're not where we 7 should be with this." And do you recall anybody you 8 would have specifically talked to about any concerns 9 you had at that time? I mean do you recall who you 10 would have raised them to?

11 I think, yes. Okay. It's 12 vague. I apologize. I'm just trying to be clear that 13 I'm vague about it, because my recollection is not 14 strong. I would have talked to one of the OSs, the 15 operation superintendents. I would have talked to 16 whoever was the leader at that moment in the OCC. It 17 was various people. We appointed a shift manager for 18 the OCC that was cannibal for the circ water and the 19 grassing and managing that. So I could have said 20 something to one of them. It definitely would be the 21 OS or it could be somebody working in the OCC.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: How about after 23 the fact? I mean you're talking about as you were 24 having a dialogue about the ongoing conditions. What 25 about after the fact? I mean would there be anyone NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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83 1 else that you could have ended up talking to?

2 Sure. If somebody asked me 3 question afterwards, "What do you think," I would just 4 say what I thought.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes.

6 So, definitely, I'm not like 7 shy.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

9 So I definitely could have 10 had a conversation with somebody, especially if it was 11 like in the heat of right after one of those exciting 12 days. If it was an exciting day and there was a lot 13 on my. mind, I might have certainly said, "Yes, I was 14 very quizzical about X or Y." I don't remember a 15 specific conversation, though. It doesn't mean it 16 didn't take place.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Would the thought 18 that you didn't have the confidence that we could 19 avert a nuclear safety issue could you recall having 20 that type of a thought process, associating that level 21 of a concern with the grassing?

22' I know that--

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You didn't have the 24 confidence that we could avert a nuclear safety issue.

25 It's been attributed to you.

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84 1 Okay. I wouldn't have said 2 it that way because that wouldn't be my language, 3 okay?

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

5 If I had said something like 6 that, it would have probably -- I mean I'll give you 7 my context, all right, because I was going to this 8 INPO senior plant manager course and getting pummeled 9 for having poor safety culture. They were talking to 10 me like I was everybody here. It was me, I made the 11 decision. That's how I was being talked to.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this was almost 13 ten years later.

14 This is eight or nine years, 15 nine, ten years later, whatever it is. I might have 16 said something like, "Okay, I hope that we're not 17 going to a Herculean effort and get every possible 18 human being over here cleaning the screens when the 19 smartest thing to do is just lower the power and take 20 the unit off the line." That would easily be 21 something I would say.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

23 Okay? Now that you say that, 24 now that that's in my mind, it could be 25 reconstruction. Now I can vaguely recall a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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85 1 conversation in the OCC with somebody talking about 2 additional resources.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

4 pWhere somebody said we needed 5 more resources. I said, "What are the resources for?

6 Do the resources go to repair something or they go to 7 just to keep circulators on the line?"

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

9 "And if it's to keep 10 circulators on the line, why are we doing that?

11 Haven't we learned." That definitely would have been 12 in keeping with the way my brain works.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And what was 14 the response you got to that?

15 I can't remember who I said 16 that to. I remember having -- now that you say that, 17 I remember having a conversation like that in the OCC 18 where somebody was mentioning bringing additional 19 Resources in and I was like quizzical about the what 20 for. Not like I didn't want to spend money but I 21 a anted to make sure we were spending -- if we were 22 alling people in, it wasn't for like what would 23 appen in '94 where you get the hero for keeping 24 circulators on the line when you shouldn't be.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

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86 1 )We should be taking the unit 2 off the line. Who did I have that with?

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In the OCC?

4 0OCC. I can't remember what 5 the response was because I can't -- I'm very visual, 6 right. If I could see their face and remember the 7 transaction more, then I could -- the videotape would 8 start to play, if you will, in my head. Oh, it could 9 have been whoever was asking for the resources, 10 whoever told me that was. Who could that have been?

11 Could have been (phonetic) or 12 (phonetic).

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So at the OS level.

14 That would be where the request would be coming from?

15 Yes. Well, not necessarily 16 __

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No?

18 -- because it wasn't always 19 an OS who was running the OCC. I actually can't 20 remember all the people who were running the OCC at 21 the time. I know . jran it one hight, I know 22 that ran it. I don't know, I can't 23 remember all the people who ran it. It definitely 24 would have been somebody that was in a leadership role 25 in the OCC. I must be showing my age here, my memory NEAL R. GROSS (7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 cells aren't as good. I just can't remember like the 2 details of the transaction.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But, basically, 4 you're saying you were questioning why they were going 5 to throw resources on it when you were thinking the 6 way to go with this is you go offline.

7 My vague recollection is that 8 I immediately jumped to -- and I don't know whether it 9 was factual, what the conclusion I was jumping to was, 10 I was hoping they weren't doing it for the wrong 11 reason, like bringing resources in for the wrong 12 reason.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

14 Like my experience is we 15 rewarded people in '94 for keeping the circulators in 16 service by Herculean effort with cleaning the screens.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

18 We used to call them screen 19 drones, people who would stay -- like dozens of people 20 there --

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: To keep the debris 22 off.

23 -- to keep the debris off 24 when we shouldn't have. It was too much of a 25 challenge. I can recall having a conversation like NEAL R. GROSS \\ ,

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1 that, and I don't know all the details. I know that 2 at some point after that we took the unit off the 3 line, and I know I could be deflecting an impact that 4 I had that I didn't expect to have or didn't expect to 5 have. I could have -- in whatever conversation I had 6 could have eventually influenced someone's decision 7 making.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the response that 9 you got when you questioned it, did it feed into where 10 you jumped to the conclusion that they might be doing 11 this for the wrong reasons? What was your response 12 that you got?

13 I can't remember. I honestly 14 can't remember.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Do you recall 16 being frustrated to the point where you may have said 17 you couldn't avert a nuclear safety event?

18 I wouldn't say it that way.

19 The way I behave if I said anything like that, it 20 would have been like if it didn't look right, I would 21 call up the chain. I've got to call the Ops Manager 22 or the Plant Manager and say, "Look, if this doesn't 23 look right, I'll call the Plant Manager and say this 24 is not right." I might say it like that but I 25 wouldn't like -- my jargon isn't usually -- you know NEAL R. GROSS A Cx COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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89 1 how people listen to something and they listen in the 2 form of context. I may not have used those words but 3 maybe you could tell from the fire in my speaking that 4 that's what I was talking about. But I don't think I 5 would have used it that way. That's not my usage.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you' re 7 connecting -- I'm asking you about the statement and 8 what you would have been talking about. Just so I 9 understand and it's clear for the record, if the 10 statement that's attributed to you is, "I don't have 11 the confidence that we could avert a nuclear safety 12 issue," what you're saying is you may not have said it 13 like that but your concern was in terms of the 14 resources and whether or not they were going to try to 15 remain online when they shouldn't, that you had a 16 concern that that's a potential is what it sounds 17 like.

18 Yes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: If they don't make 20 the right decision, that could have been what you 21 meant by that, that something may have had to have 22 been referred up the line by you.

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90 1 have assuaged my concern and ended up being a smaller 2 memory for me, but maybe the person I was talking to 3 or somebody who witnessed the conversation who had the 4 same concern I had but maybe had a different passion 5 around it might have heard it a different way, you 6 know what I mean? I don't know if I'm making any 7 sense. Like in other words, they could have actually 8 been thinking like me and were glad that I said what 9 I said, that kind of thing.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So overall 11 then, in terms of the grassing, so we have an 12 understanding, at some point you think you saw 13 something you had to question.

14 Yes. Now that I -- let's 15 see. I think I actually might have had a conversation 16 in the next 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> with somebody that wasn't present 17 and that person may have gotten that impression.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who is this person?

19 I'm thinking. It might have 20 been Kim Harvin (phonetic), okay, because I know that 21 she asked me how the night went, and I said, "It was 22 a long night, there was a lot going on." And, "How 23 did it go?" I said, "Well, ultimately it went fine 24 but it was a very tough night." And then I might have 25 expressed whatever's on my mind to her.

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91 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this is within 2 the 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> of --

3 Maybe the --

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- when you were 5 involved?

6 Yes.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

8 Vaguely, that seems like it 9 could be plausible. I'm trying to think of who I 10 talked to, who might have focused in on the way I felt 11 about something. Her way of being about that sort of 12 thing was not to focus on technical but focus on the 13 concern and the behavior.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: She was the Cultural 15 Change Manager, right?

16 Yes.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: She would deal with 18 management and --

19 Right.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- and dealing with 21 __

22 So her questions would go 23 right to that. How did he or she handle it, how did 24 __

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92 1 seen a concern on your part and --

2 IlL Right. I'm thinking -- I 3 don't remember all the details but I do remember 4 talking to her sometime soon afterwards.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

6 All right?

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then at some 8 point did your level of concern change with that?

9 The context, like I said 10 before, is always decisive. So to me, my recollection 11 could be closed up. Was they -- went in the direction 12 I wanted them to?

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How much time did 14 that take?

15 I don't remember.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I mean if you're 17 involved in a conversation where you're pushing and 18 asking questions and saying, "Why," within the next 19 couple hours you're talking to Kim Harvin and you have 20 some level of question and concern, at least, you 21 think that you communicated to her.

22 - Yes.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How much time did it 24 take to get to where you thought they needed to be?

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93 1 whether or not that conversation happened before or 2 after. My recollection is they took action that was 3 consistent with data that was presented to me.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

5 Okay? And I don't know 6 whether her conversation was right after that or right 7 before. I don't remember that much detail.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

9 j My gut says it happened 10 shortly thereafter, like, in other words, they had 11 just recently taken that action. But what the CARB 12 conversation may have centered around was the 13 leadership behaviors around that.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Your conversation 15 with Kim Harvin.

,~

16 .I would have been like, 17 'How's he doing. How did he deal with it? How do you 18 deal with it? Did they listen?" That kind of 19 conversation.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: If you didn't say it 21 in those exact words, has there been an issue onsite 22 since that time, and I'll say before that time, where 23 you would have felt that circumstances were such that 24 you couldn't avert a nuclear safety issue, I mean you 25 had to take action there?

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94 1 1 Yes.-

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you been in that 3 position before?

4 Can I just clear up some 5 language. The reason I say I wouldn't use that usage 6 because like avert, I could use the word, "avert," but 7 issue, like averting issue, that's why I know I 8 wouldn't use that usage. Averting an issue doesn't 9 make sense to me. Like averting an event.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: An event, a nuclear 11 safety event.

12 Yes. Like that, that could 13 make some sense. I just apologize, I just want to get 14 grounded in the full context.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This is just about to 16 run out on this side, and probably what that means is 17 it will cut off whatever you say.

18 Right.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So let me just flip 20 the tape over, please. We'll go off the record. It's 21 about 2:14 p.m.

22 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 23 the record at 2:14 p.m. and went back on 24 the record at 2:15 p.m.)

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We're back on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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95 1 the record. It's about 2:15 p.m. We're on side A, 2 tape 2. And you were considering whether you've had 3 a level of concern that would prompt you to say 4 something about not being able to avert a nuclear 5 safety event. _#/

6 J I'll go back to what I said 7 earlier, which is my experience in this realm about 8 safety culture is kind of a continuum of things. And 9 it would all depend on when and who I was dealing 10 with, like who I was having a transaction with.

11 Normally my reaction is to do that, to just say 12 something, just say whatever's on my mind. I know 13 that at times I've personally -- over time I've had 14 concerns about I'd better watch out what I say, okay?

15 Most of those are, I would say, were in the time frame 16 of post-Salem, in the area when we were trying to 17 restart Salem. We had some, I would say, weird 18 managerial behavior at times around here. So you kind 19 of never quite knew what was up. The behavior was 20 bazaar at times. So I can definitely remember some 21 cases then.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Have you ever 23 felt that it's been like that way within the last two 24 or three years? Say since, just pick an arbitrary 25 cutoff, say 2000 -- 2000, 2001, 2002, maybe even 2003, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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96 1 has there been anything where you felt like there was 2 weird managerial behavior in those time frames?

3 j&J There hasn't been weird 4 managerial behavior but I must confess that I've been, 5 I would say, more courageous around it, like, in other 6 words, I say what -- I've actually been a little bit 7 pushy back. There were a couple of managers that I 8 don't really trust, so when I deal with them I always 9 -- I'm not careful what I say but I'm more focused on 10 being courageous. I could see myself easily being 11 triggered into some level of censorship, if you will.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Where is it that you 13 feel it's not -- your concerns wouldn't be received 14 well, what level?

15 Not so much at level.

16 There's some people whose behavior, in my context, my 17 experience, is not as up and up as I'm used to seeing.

18 Like, in other words, they're not particularly 19 straight about their intentions, okay? And one of the 20 Vice Presidents I always listen to his speaking -- I 21 always filter it. I always look for making sure I'm 22 clear on the direction, and if I have an issue with 23 that, I let him know. I actually have no compunction 24 right now to let him have it.

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97

- would that be?

-- j 2 (phonetic).

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

4 Okay? He's a little 5 slippery.

10 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But when you say up 7 and up, are you saying -- is this along the lines of 8 saying one thing that means -- what's an example of 9 what it is that you question, where they're not clear 10 on the intentions?

11 ,Well, I'll give you an 12 example that I remember quite well. Actually, in a 13 way it was brought up as a safety issue to me by 14 He called me up one day, this was when I 15 worked for -- right before I went over to 16 and he called me up and directed me to 17 purchase -- rent a tent for a celebration for the 18 site, and my boss, old boss told me not to do that.

19 "This guy tries to get you to do something like that, 20 tell them no." So he called me up and said, "I'm the 21 site manager right now because your boss is on 22 vacation and I'm directing you to go rent a tent and 23 go rent a band and go rent food -- go buy food and 24 stuff." And I said, "Decline." He said, "What do you 25 mean decline," I said, "My boss made it real clear NEAL R. GROSS A 1 1J COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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98 1 that you might do this and to tell you no. So I'm 2 telling you no." And he said, "Well, I understand 3 that, and I'll take full responsibility." I said, 4 "Well, the answer is still no." He said, "Well, you 5 don't understand what I mean to say," and I said, 6 "When I say full responsibility what do you think it 7 means?" And he said, "Like if I direct you to this 8 and you do it, if the boss has any concerns, I take 9 full accountability for it." I said, "Okay. Good.

10 It seems like you understand what full responsibility 11 means." I said, "If you are willing to do that, that 12 you're fully accountable for this, then I'll go ahead 13 and do that. You're the boss, you say it has to be 14 done." So I said, "I'm going to leav a voice 15 mail, let him know that you've made this request and 16 that you're taking full accountability for it." He K t

C k

17 said, "Okay." So I went and did it.

18 All right? And then I got a phone call C/

19 from his office wit 20 saying, ylas a concern about the tent and where 21 you erected it." I said, "Okay, fine." I said, "It's 22 where" -- and he cut me off and said, "Who's 23 accountable for this tent and this whole event," and 24 I said, "What's the purpose of the question, 25 "I want to know who's accountable." I said, "Well, in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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99 1 the managerial sense you're fully accountable, we're 2 clear on that, but if you want to know who put up the 3 tent, who directed where to put up a tent, it would be 4 me."§ And he said, "Well, why did you choose to put it 5 there?" I said, "You told me to put up the tent the 6 same place we did last time." And he went on with an 7 inquisition type question with about eight people in 8 the room on a voice teleconference and me being 9 grilled.

10 So I said, "What would you like?" He 11 said, "I'd like you to move it." I said, "Can I 12 understand what the question is so I can know what I'm 13 dealing with?" The question is, "If we had a tornado, 14 might this hit the power lines?" And I said, "I spent 15 10,000 extra dollars per the last time we did this you 16 guys requested a tornado-proof tent. So this is a 17 tornado-proof tent. Where would you like me to move 18 it?" "Well, somewhere away from the power lines." I 19 said, "There really is no place on the facility that's 20 flat and hard that isn't near the power lines, so if 21 you want me to move it, just tell me where to move it 22 and you have to be accountable for the $15,000 --

23 excuse me, the $2,500 it will take to move it." He 24 said, "No, you decide." I said, "No." I said, "I am 25 not going to do that because I have no idea what safe NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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100 1 is so I want you to tell me what you want to do. I'll 2 move it anywhere and as long as you're accountable 3 with every move I make, like, in other words, "$2,500, 4 because it's expensive."

5 So he said, "You get with the managers; 6 they want it moved." So I called each one of the 7 managers, plant managers, and said, 3 says you 8 guys have a concern about where the tent is and that 9 you would like me to move it. I'll be glad to move it 10 if you just tell me where you'd like me to move it."

11 They said, "I don't have a concern about the tent."

12 Each one of them told me they don't have a concern 13 about the tent. I said, "Would you like me to move it 14 in a particular place?" "No, we have no idea." So I 15 called back and said, you tell me where to move 16 it and I'll move it." He told me where to move it; I 17 moved it.

18 Then I said, "You and I are talking 19 tomorrow morning. What time do you get in?" And he 20 said, "Seven o'clock." I said, "Well, I'm coming to 21 see you at seven o'clock," and he said, "Well, I've 22 got an appointment." I said, "Well, move it." So I 23 said, "If you ever pull this stunt on me again, I'm 24 going to call you on it in front of everybody. You 25 pretended like you had no accountability for this.

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101 1 You were in on the siting of this, and you just 2 pretended that you had no accountability for it after 3 the long conversation you had. It doesn't work. So 4 I'm tired of this. I'm going to tell you straight:

5 If you asked me to borrow my toothbrush, I wouldn't 6 loan it to you because I wouldn't trust you to give it 7 back to me. I don't trust you an inch." And I said, 8 "lSo just be clear on that." So that's our 9 relationship right now, very clear.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Have you ever 11 felt that that lack of trust has exhibited itself in 12 the way the plant's been operated?

13 It could have. I mean I 14 can't think of a specific example. Certainly, I don't 15 think a lot of people trust him because of his 16 behavior. The way it occurs to me and many people is 17 it's all about him. Like the conversation is about 18 him, not about us filling out our promises.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: How about 20 interactions with the NRC? Have you ever felt that 21 his interactions with the NRC have been less than 22 forthright?

23 I can't think of any specific 24 example of it.

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102 1 recent spent fuel pool leak at Salem? Any concerns 2 that you had or any issues would come up where either 3 he's been involved or others have been involved?

4 Actually, yes. Now that you 5 bring it up I can think of an example now. Yes.

6 Actually, he gave me a call and asked me to --

7 actually, no. He actually had one of his supervisors 8 or managers call me and ask for an affidavit that I 9 would write to say that there's no evidence of RCS 10 leakage in the reactor sump room, and I declined. I 11 said, "I can't do that. I don't have data that would 12 support such an affidavit," so I declined.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And what was 14 behind that, do you think?

15 I think it was just -- I 16 attributed it to, and I hadn't thought about this in 17 this context, but I attributed it to something 18 different. I didn't attribute it to sleazy . I 19 attributed it to an engineer's way of thinking of 20 things versus a scientist's way of thinking of things.

21 An engineer likes to look -- they look at data 22 differently. Like a scientist looks at the 23 preponderance of evidence. What might the 24 preponderance of evidence be telling me? I don't look 25 for this is the answer, get me data to match the NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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103 1 answer, you know what I mean? An engineer often does 2 that.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was the data 4 that you had at the time that he wanted you to make 5 the affidavit?

6 I was actually on -- believe 7 it or not, I was the on shift during 8 the shutdown in Salem on October 9, and I was 9 nightshift. I was the-10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: October 9 of?

11 This year.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: This year. Okay.

13 And I was there at the 14 control point. I was going back forth between the 15 control room and the aux building and dealing with the 16 shutdown, making sure everything was going well. That 17 was my job.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

19 Following the plan. And I 20 bumped into the Maintenance Supervisor coming out of 21 the sump room. I knew they were building scaffold for 22 a bottom-head inspection, and he said to me, "Oh, I 23 found some weird white stuff and I left it in the lab.

24 So it will be important that you guys look at it 25 quickly." And I said, "Fine, we'll take care of it."

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104 1 So -- no, he didn't leave it in the lab.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Where did he say --

3 He said, 'I saw it on the 4 wall and I probably should have gotten a sample but I 5 wrote it -- I'm writing identification. So then I 6 hooked him up with an RP tech like about an hour later 7 and the RP tech that went in for coverage I had him 8 take a sample out with him so we could look at a 9 sample of --

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: This is inside 11 containment you're saying.

12 This is inside containment in 13 the sump room, underneath --

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

15 -- the reactor vessel.

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. The 17 containment -- the normal -- the recirc sump.

18 Yes.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: The sump that 20 would be used for long-term recirculation and cooling 21 for--

22 I would call it the sump room 23 sump.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

25 There's a sump room, okay?

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105 1 There's the flux thimble tubing going through it, 2 right? And it's got a catwalk so you could do 3 inspections in and around the bottom of the vessel.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

5 r Like an installed catwalk.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

7 And he was building scaffold 8 from the ground elevation so they could drop 9 insulation and do a detailed inspection.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Of the bottom 11 head?

12 Of the bottom head. He 13 noticed a crack in the wall. He notice a white 14 deposit on a crack in the wall and then they wanted to 15 know what was it?

16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I see.

17 9 What was the stuff on the 18 wall?

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

20 l Was it boron, was it RCS?

21 And my immediate reaction was could be boron, maybe 22 not. RCS, definitely can see RCS activity in the sump 23 room because the way HP techs work and the way they're 24 taught to work is when they decontaminate something 25 they always move it towards the most contaminated NEAL R. GROSS 6 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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106 1 area. So in the lay of the contour land there that 2 sump is like the highest contamination sump in that 3 area. When you would wash, you'd wash towards it. So 4 to have RCS-type activity on the wall is not shocking.

5 So I got a voice mail from one of his people asking 6 for an affidavit saying that we have no evidence that 7 there's any RCS leakage in that room, and I just said, 8 "I can't do that. Decline."

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was one of the 10 people that was asking for that? So this isn't coming 11 from directly.

12 ~I think it was 13 who works for made the request, and it 14 said ould like by the end of today like 15 a statement. I called back and I said, "Decline. Not 16 going to make that statement."

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Called you 18 or called 19 I calle and 20 said, "I'm not going to get that affidavit."

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

22 Decline.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Did he 24 specifically ask for an affidavit?

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107 1 statement.

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you said you 4 attributed it to his wanting something. You didn't 5 tell us what you attributed it to. Why did he want 6 that?

7 j I think he wanted -- I don't 8 know what he wanted, we'd have to ask him, right, but 9 I think he was -- I'm going to assume he was looking 10 for a rapid clean bill of health, okay, because the 11 bottom head inspection was very good. There was no 12 boron on the bottom of the head, okay?

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

14 J But there was this nuisance 15 notification written by the Maintenance Supervisor 16 that described a white deposit on the wall.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

18 And why don't we get the 19 chemist to give us an answer to that to make it clean, 20 make the room clean.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At the point in time 22 he was asking for this, is this a legitimate 23 expectation of his, that it had been analyzed and that 24 you could say there was no RCS leakage?

(I/

25 No. \

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that something he 2 knew or didn't know?

3 I don't know. It's much more 4 complicated because I'd have to tell you whether 5 there's boron or lithium there, I have to actually do 6 probably a shift or two worth of sample prep. I have 7 to go ship it over to Hope Creek to do some analysis 8 on the Hope Creek analyzer. It was like a two and a 9 half or three-day affair to know the answer. Plus I 10 knew from my own experience it kind of like to me was 11 a dumb question. Don't take this wrong but to me can 12 you find any evidence of RCS leakage in the sump room 13 beneath the reactor vessel? I would say almost the 14 time you'd be able to find some evidence of it.

15 Because you always have some level of leakage, you 16 know what I mean? You have some leakage in -- usually 17 it comes in and around the vessel. It's not usually 18 way, way out. Sometimes it is on legs. So I 19 suspected that. was going to tell us that there 20 was RCS leakage in the room, but that may or may not 21 mean anything significant.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. But the 23 request was for an affidavit saying that there was not 24 RCS leakage.

25 No evidence of RCS leakage.

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109 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No evidence of it.

2 Yes 3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, is that 4 really that unusual a request if you're trying to make 5 a determination on whether or not there's penetration 6 to the bottom part of the head that' s actually leaking 7 or at one point did leak? I mean if he was trying to 8 say maybe this is water that's coming down through a 9 cavity seal, then that could be one source.

10 Right, exactly.

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Or it could 12 actually be a leak through a penetration of the bottom 13 part of the head.

14 Right. Or it could be what 15 it looks like now, the fingerprint on it now, is that 16 it came from the SS, the sample valve 661 that leaked 17 right up by the hot lake, right up above.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

19 So it leaked pretty much the 20 whole cycle.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: So it could have 22 in fact come from that.

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110 1 in and around the annulus and the room once it came 2 out of grave danger, very high rad area during the 3 refueling.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

5 As soon as we could go back 6 in the room, we did more data. It's now looking like 7 it was this valve leaking, was what the activity was 8 in the room. But still in a way this valve leaking is 9 RCS. It's a sample valve for RCS.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: But it's where 11 it's from in the RCS.

12 Right.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Is it from the 14 bottom head or from some other location?

15. Yes. And so to me it was 16 like a preposterous request.

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

18 And I just politely declined.

19 I wasn't nasty, I just said, "Decline."

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you hear anything 21 further after you declined?

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ill 1 question. I'm not writing something down for the sake 2 of satisfying somebody's check list. I'll give you a 3 report." I gave him like a 27-page report of a Ph.D.

4 we're working on. I had the right people working on 5 it.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you think that 7 that was understood? You had to point out that that's 8 a preposterous request. Do you think that was 9 understood when they asked for it? They wanted this 10 clean bill. Did they have an idea of what they were 11 dealing with? 7qL 12 Yes, I don't know. You never 13 know. That's when you've got to be careful. One of 14 the things I learned in that course in Atlanta in '94 15 is you've got to understand sometimes you're dealing 16 with a chair. What I mean is a lot of times people 17 relate to the title you have in a way that's different 18 than the way you behave. Like, in other words, they 19 filter what you say. So like if you're a VP Chair, a 20 Vice President Chair, some people filter things in a 21 certain way, like he's got to have it now, and they 22 put too much English on it, you know what I mean? I 23 don't know what he had in mind, personally? I didn't 24 talk to him directly. I just declined and I said, "If 25 he has any problems with it, have him call me. He NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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112 1 doesn't hesitate to call me any other time."

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you hear from 3

4 No. No.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Is there 6 anything more documented about that request or did you 7 have any further conversations with anybody about it?

8 I had a conversation with 9 (phonetic) who was boss, 10 the person who made the request. He said, "What's the 11 story? How come you can't this analysis?" I said, 12 "I'm not saying I can't. I just I couldn't give you 13 an affidavit or a statement that says there's no RCS 14 leakage there because I can't do that. I have no 15 evidence that would support that right now. Right now 16 I have no evidence. In the end, I don't think I'm 17 going to give you evidence that would allow you to 18 make that statement, just from my experience.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did he seem to 20 understand?

21 Yes. Yes.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you experience 23 any further push to issue any sort of an affidavit or 24 any sort of finding that you didn't agree with?

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113 1 report out.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The time.

3 The time. But it was fine.

4 They said, "When will you have it? We made a promise 5 date." I said -- and they kept on every day reminding 6 me of the date, and I said -- I reminded them that I 7 was me, "This is Pyou're talking to, the date will 8 be made." The date I promised you will be made. But 9 that's the only kind of pressure after that.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Pressure on when to 11 deliver the report.

12 It's just they were worried 13 that I wasn't going to deliver. And they were worried 14 about what the report was going to say, the results.

15 Not like that we'd do something stupid but they were 16 worried that we'd find something. That's logical. It 17 doesn't bother me. If I found something significant, 18 it could be like a megabuck discovery, could be 19 millions of dollars. I can understand them being 20 nervous. It's just that I declined to give them 21 something that wasn't appropriate to give them when 22 they asked for it.

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1 answer to that to be able to answer the NRC's 2 questions on what the source of that was? I mean is 3 that what was the push behind that?

4 I don't know, although it was 5 weird. You had three inspectors here and they're all 6 really -- let's see, at least two inspectors. You had 7 and, I forget, there was a guy --

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER:

9 And one other one.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: R 11 And the way the 12 whole thing occurred to me was that somebody from 13 headquarters or region was feeding questions to them 14 and that they were intermediaries on a lot of 15 questions. Because a lot of times we would give them 16 an answer and we wouldn't get a follow-up question 17 until like four hours later. It was almost like 18 somebody else was dealing with the technical answer 19 and--

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the in between 21 people were who?

22m 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, but when you were 24 feeding your answers to, was this --

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1 inspectors.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

3 9 The impression I got was that 4 they were a lot of times dealing with somebody else's 5 question.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

7 So the follow up would occur 8 four or five hours later. Now, during the exit of 9 that inspection it was weird because as all 10 upset about the timing of some of the answers.

11 Because there was concern that his inspectors were not 12 being regarded.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I think there was 14 also an issue where there was a question that was 15 asked for inspection results and there was a denial 16 saying, "You can't have that. And the reason is 17 because we gave it to an inspector out at Palo Verde 18 and then they made it public, so we're not going to 19 give that to you."

20 Oh. Yes. I noticed that 21 there was some defensiveness between the one guy, 22 and the group. They seemed to be getting on with each 23 other. It was like -- I only witnessed one 24 transaction but it seemed like had some pretty 25 righteous opinions about some things that was on the (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 side of arrogant.

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

3 He was contending X and Y, 4 the person I dealing with from the steam generator 5 group was giving me answers. He was saying that --

6 dismissing the answer. And then our person was 7 behaving poorly, like not listening to the next 8 question, was like gummed up on the -- upset around 9 the* first question like the juice around it, the 10 righteousness around it. And I actually witnessed at 11 least two questions go to that person who never even 12 heard what the question was. I had to restate the 13 question for - so somebody else would hear it. We 14 didn't answer question. I could see the dynamic 15 that was going on.

16 It's probably that one that -- at any 17 rate, why I say all that was I was wondering if some 18 of the pressure wasn't on -- like in other words, you 19 had these inspectors in some cases -- you know,

-20 they're under a lot of pressure and they're getting 21 second guessed, like, "Why didn't you ask this follow-22 up question?" The person at headquarters or region 23 it's like, "Time's a wasting. Where are my answers 24 at?"

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1 whenever you have kind of a live inspection where 2 you're actually observing something that's in process, 3 there's always a fear that you won't ask all the right 4 questions and cover all the right information while 5 you have the opportunity, while there's the ability in 6 a way that gives you as a utility the ability to deal 7 with the question.

8 Yes.

9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Because when we 10 ask you something provocative about an indication, 11 you've already -- let's say you're close to the 12 containment and you're actually escalating power --

13 Yes. That's a big deal.

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes. It's a big 15 deal then and it puts you in a bad way because we're 16 asking you something that by rights if we were -- if 17 we had thought about it when we were shut down or when 18 we shut down, cool down and actually doing the 19 inspection, you might give us a different answer than 20 one that --

21 No. I'm 22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And I think there 23 was some of that trying to -- it was actually trying 24 to be sensitive to the -- asking the question when 25 you're doing the inspection so you can answer it and NEAL R. GROSS {\

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L.L O 1 do whatever research you need if it had to do with 2 what penetrations were being inspected or what area 3 the vessel you were looking at and what did you 4 actually find?

5 Exactly.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And what's the 7 documented history and things like that. So you have 8 all that and you have the ability to recover it if you 9 haven't done it.

10 Yes. I was trying to respond 11 to Eileen's question about what could have been behind 12 some of that pressure and the timing of it, and I 13 think that, for example, came to me a couple times 14 and said, "When will you have this lithium analysis?"

15 I said, "I'll probably have it Friday morning." And 16 then

• would check in all the time till Friday 17 morning. So I think it was not only the person 18 calling me but all three of the inspectors were asking 19 about, "When am I going to get the value?"

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I see.

21 as great. t was the 22 one dealing mostly with me but it took about two hours 23 just fo

• to understand that the protocol literally 24 took hours. It was like acid digestion and then 25 dilute. It wasn't like -- 01 initial perception was NE4L R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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I 1 we'd just take a little sample, stick it in the jar, 2 put it on the machine and there's an answer, right?

3 There was a lot of protocol to get a lot of answers 4 that were wanted. And after 4got clear on what was 5 driving it, was cool, but I think there's lots of 6 pressure going on from all points, like what's the 7 answer to that, what's that white stuff on the wall?"

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. So that 9 was with the under vessel. How about with the actual 10 spent fuel pool leak itself? That was something that 11 kind of came up in the last September time frame and 12 then the NRC became aware of it in November.

13 Actually, (phonetic) went and sat in on 14 some sort of presentation, engineering type 15 presentation. But you were probably involved maybe on 16 the periphery because of your previous knowledge and 17 experience with RP and chemistry.

18 j7 I got involved in the 19 periphery. Actually, they would call me and ask me 20 historic questions periodically.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

22 Like, "What do you know about 23 X? What do you know about Y?"

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Telltale drain 25 linkage, things like that.

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.ILZ U 1 Yes. But one of the early 2 questions they asked me was are you aware of any kind 3 of problems with any underground rad waste lines or 4 liquid non-rad waste lines? Given that you're active 5 in Rad Pro on those days, do you remember X or Y?

6 Those were the kind of questions I got.

7 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. What was 8 your sense on those? I mean in the way the issue was 9 handled? Was it appropriate?

10 I didn't have any concerns 11 with the issues. Some of the questions they're asking 12 are quite dated and the ability to go reconstruct data 13 is really hard. They were asking questions about 14 things that literally happened 18, 19, 20 years ago.

15 What I did remember about this, and I just gave them 16 whatever I could, whatever leads I could.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's difficult.

18 Yes. It' s hard. It's hard.

19 I wasn't involved directly in the project.

20 SENIORENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

21 ey would ask me questions, 22 and then late in the process, I would say in the 23 summer, they invited me to a couple inspections, NRC 24 inspections. They asked me if I'd be there just 25 because -- I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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.LZ I 1 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: You mean in 2003.

2 This year.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

4 _ In the summer.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Because w 6 actually became aware of it in November. I think 7 jjas on-site in December and we set up an ongoing 8 dialogue and then there was a number of interactions.

9 11:Right.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: In what you knew 11 of the issue, did you see any risk, maybe 12 communications risk because I think you were in a 13- or a while.

14 Oh, that's good.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was there any 16 risk in the way that was communicated?

17 Now that you say that, that 18 triggered a memory cell. I do know that someone on 19 the project team called me and said, "You should be 20 aware of X," which is the issue, and that, "You may 21 get media inquiries because we're X, Y," I don't 22 remember the exact reason they called. It was like is 23 it going to be in the inspection report, is it going 24 to be in a letter to the state or something like that?

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122 1 media inquiries. All right did the data tell you, do 2 you recall?

3 I think we actually might 4 have created a White Paper out of it just to have for 5 leaders if they've got questions about it, like 6 background information. And I don't think we got any 7 media inquiries.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Do you ever do Qs 9 and As for your senior managers? Do you ever do 10 things like that?

11 We did things like that, yes.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Do you 13 recall if you did it for that?

14 Might have.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

16 Might have.

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Would you have 18 been in the ehem or would you have 19 transitioned out of that by that time?

20 What's the date?

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, it would 22 have been 2002 but you --

23 November 2002?

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

25 jI started May 2002 and worked NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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123 1 management.

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

3 Although it's not unlike V 4 < (phonetic) to give me a call.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

6 He might have given me a 7 call. Actually, I think he did give me a call and 8 asked for my advice on something he was putting 9 together.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Is he a strictly 11 communications type person? Does he have any 12 technical background?

13 He's got a Bachelor's in 14 physics.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Did he ever work 16 in the plant? Did he work --

17 No.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- inside the 19 fence at all?

20 21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

22 X He worked at PECO.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. So he may 24 have had some knowledge of some of the issues but 25 maybe not specific plant knowledge.

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124 1 No. He had very little plant 2 knowledge.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

4 Like no experiential 5 knowledge other than outages and supporting 6 communications. He would remember what he had to 7 manage as far as news, right, whatever became news.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Could we go off 9 the record for a moment?

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes. And I had some 11 follow-up too. It's approximately 2:45.

12 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 13 the record at 2:45 p.m. and went back on 14 the record at 2:50 p.m.)

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's approximately 16 2:50 p.m. We're back on the record after a brief 17 break. And what I had wanted to go back on were some 18 comments that you made indicating concerns that you 19 had with and how you kind of -- I think 20 the way you termed it was that you had to make 21 yourself -- or be more courageous when you were 22 dealing with him, and it had to do with a lack of 23 trust, and you explained why you had that lack of 24 trust --

25 Right.

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125 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- with him. Are 2 there any other incidents there like what we were 3 talking about with this direction about give me this 4 clean bill of health on the RCS issue, anything else 5 that comes to mind when you talk about really 6 questionable directives?

7 Not with per 8 se. I did have a question which I brought to the QA 9 Manager's attention about -- I guess this would have 10 been about ten, 11 months ago. We had a problem in 11 Salem at the outage with the PR2 valve, right? And 12 there was some bad behavior on the part of some 13 maintenance people, supervisors, technicians, and we 14 had what I call a safety stand down, and at first I 15 had no problem with it, it seemed appropriate, but 16 then what it turned into was almost a two-month stand 17 down. In other words, it was like -- I had a concern 18 that we hadn't manage the stand down properly so that 19 we actually could get work done that was required, 20 keep things maintained.

21 So I brought a concern to his attention 22 which was that now I can't get any work done, either 23 safety-related components that require corrective 24 maintenance are not getting done and I'm asking you 25 for help because you guys are in the business of NEAL R. GROSS 4t COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 stopping work. I know you didn't stop it but I have 2 a concern now that we've stopped it too long, that 3 we've stopped the work too long. And I made a request 4 to him to have more specific criteria develop so that 5 we could get work going again. This was kind of like 6 the opposite logic you're talking about.

7 To me one of the things you've got to do 8 to keep things safe is actually do repairs and do 9 maintenance on things. And if you don't do them, you 10 could have failures that could crop up that you don't 11 want. So I asked him for help in getting clear 12 direction on when we could actually start working 13 again.

14. SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this is who 15 again?

16 Th 17 IAL AGENT NEF 18 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

20 And then I talked to my boss, 21 what at the time was and then I talked to 22 -- I eventually talked -- I actually, if you will, 23 cleaned it up with because I actually 24 cleaned up that I had went around him and not gone 25 directly to him with my concern. And I wanted to let NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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III I 1 him know that I had this concern and I didn't offer 2 help. I didn't directly to the maintenance guys who 3 created this stand down at first. I actually one day 4 did but they were frustrated and annoyed with what 5 they were dealing with they didn't really hear what I 6 said, so I kind of went the direction of QA and then 7 my boss, and I went to and said, "Okay, so here's 8 the skinny on it. I should have come to you and *,

9 W and showed you how to get 10 yourself out of what you put yourself into and I 11 didn't. So I'm going to do that now," and I did it.

12 I got with and said, "Here's how you can 13 extricate yourself from the mess you put yourself in."

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And this was a 15 self-imposed stand down, but they didn't have an exit 16 strategy and you were giving it to them.

17 Yes.

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

19 Right.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this is related

.21 to a PR2 --

22 PR2 occurred at the end of 23 2002.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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128 1 that?

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, I know 3 there was --

4 You're aware of it.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes, I know but 6 I don't remember the timing. I don't -- it was a 7 maintenance practice issue. One of the valves was 8 properly, the other one was improperly. There was 9 leftover parts. I think there was two maintenance 10 technicians that were let go and a supervisor.

11 It was definitely 2002 12 because the stand down like at the beginning of 13 November 2002 --

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

15 9- moved to December and was 16 into January before we defined how to get out of not 17 doing work For about a week or so we did nothing 18 except require tech spec surveillances. And then we 19 were instructed to try to do some work, but because we 20 didn't have a strategy, what it looked like was 21 everyone was off the train, some superintendents were 22 available to do detailed pre-job briefs with some 23 crews and so what happened is we probably would be 24 able to get maybe two or three pre-job briefs done in 25 a day, okay, and we'd get two or three jobs done. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 probably by about the third week or so that' s when one 2 the QA Manager said, "This is like nuts. This is like 3 nuts. We lost the big flick here." Actually, I would 4 have designed one that lasted a few days or even a 5 week. I came in later to help -- I helped them late, 6 but what I would have done up-front was I would have 7 sent all the maintenance supervisors off for training 8 for pre-job briefs if that's what you thought it was, 9 the issue, and brought them back and then had the 10 superintendents parachute in and make sure they were 11 meeting the standards so you could actually repair 12 equipment and do preventive maintenance. So it was 13 kind of like an ill-defined -- I guess there was a 14 theme to this now that I think about it. In my world, 15 my context is it's about looking good versus actually 16 being your word, and I was upset that we weren't being 17 our word. We said we would maintain certain 18 equipment, right, and not doing work could look like 19 we're looking good but to me it's not. It's like 20 looking conservative. Does that make sense?

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. Because the 22 maintenance wasn't happening. '7 23 Wasn't happening, right.

24 That's the only other thing I can think of off hand.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. What about in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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IJ U 1 terms of the concerns that you had regarding Mr.

2 A Did you make that observation about anybody 3 else that you were dealing with?

4 Not in the last two years.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Anybody that you 6 thought yeou had to be courageous or could not trust?

7 n Not in the last two years.

8 There were people before.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Prior?

10 Prior to two years.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Anybody still here?

12 No.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. How far out 14 are we talking about?

15 Ninety-six, seven, eight, 16 that time frame.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

18 Yes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Are they still in the 20 industry?

21 Don't know. Don't know.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What positions are we 23 talking about? What kind of concerns were you -- when 24 you say you couldn't trust somebody, that could open 25 a lot of doors to a lot of problems, but what kind of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1. 1 1 concerns did you have with them?

2 Well, when I was in site 3 planning, right, it was '97-ish, I don't know the 4 exact date, but I had mostly contractors working for 5 me, contract schedulers, and Engineering had some sort 6 of reorg that occurred and my boss came to me one day 7 and said, "We have somebody that has some scheduling 8 experience and we'd like you to use them." I said, 9 "Fine. Great." So the guy came to work for me and 10 did a great job, real good. One day my boss came to 11 me and said, "Tomorrow morning I want you to give this 12 guy this letter." And I looked at the letter and the 13 letter said, "Your position is being eliminated 14 effective a week from some day, that you didn't have 15 a job." So I read the letter and I came back to my 16 boss and said, "So this is not true. You've actually 17 authorized me to replace with him a contractor, so I 18 can't give this letter to him." He said, "I want you 19 to give the letter to him." And I said, "1No." So I 20 got the letter the next day.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Why was the 22 contractor getting a letter in the first place?

23 § No, it wasn't a contractor; 24 it was a PS employee.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, a PS employee.

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n13 2 1 - ~ Who had been --

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Why did the PS 3 employee 4 E - misplaced

- from 5 Engineering, who was a right?

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you were going to 7 replace the position.

8 I was happy with the guy.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, no, no. So as 10 not to confuse it, your boss -- who's this?

11 It was J

12 (phonetic).

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -s 14 going to tell you to deliver this termination letter 15 to a PS employee.

16 Correct.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you're going to 18 backfill that immediately with a contractor. So the 19 position's not eliminated.

20 Well, it was being filled by 21 a contractor and I was -- what I wanted was him to 22 stay. The guy was working out and we had requisitions 23 in for four permanent positions, and I was going to 24 fill those permanently.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And he would I/

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J.L.P 1 be one of them.

2 So all of a sudden it was 3 like the position is eliminated, and I said, "That's 4 not true. You just told me that we had four positions 5 authorized, so I can't give this letter. It's not the 6 facts."

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was 8 why was he being given the letter, do you know?

9 Yes. He said, "This is the 10 way we manage this guy out of here," and I said, 11 "Well, I'm not going to do it."

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But why did he want 13 him managed out of there?

24 I have no clue.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You don't know about 16 that.

17 J He was a bizarre fellow, very 18 bizarre.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

20 Yes. And t-hen I get the 21 letter the next day.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thait didn't stick 23 either, so what happened there?

24 lHuh?

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What happened with NEAL R. GROSS Ir COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 that?

2 Li JJ I found a job. He eliminated 3 my position and like a month or two later hired 4 somebody for my position.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, you just moved 6 elsewhere in PS.

7 I went and -- the letter, 8 basically -- the letter when we lay off somebody 9 basically says, "You've got a clock."

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. You've got to 11 find a place.

12 -t "you've got to a find a 13 place. If you don't find a place, your last day of 14 employment is X." That's the letter, right? So I got 15 the letter the next day. And then about a month later 16 another PS person filled that position.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And this is 18 '96 or seven.

19 Seven-ish, yes.

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was he the only 21 other one that you felt wasn't quite up to snuff or --

22 He was the only one I had 23 direct dealings with. That was a weird time. If you 24 want to find evidence of people self-censoring 25 themselves, that would be a time period that would be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS IC 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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13b 1 rich for that. And if you looked at the data from the 2 safety conscious work environment surveys and stuff 3 and probably the number of allegations you were 4 seeing, I'm sure that the data would belie that.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So that's seven or 6 eight years ago you're talking about.

7 Yes. I know for a fact that 8 you had -- that we subtract out allegations that you 9 guys had --

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Sure.

11 -- and it was like flying off 12 the charts at the time.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about in terms 14 of in raising concerns -- I mean it seems pretty clear 15 that when you see something, just giving the examples 16 that you're giving us today, you say what you need to 17 say. It seems that way. Was there ever a time where 18 you felt you couldn't raise a concern?

19 Well, I guess the reason I 20 give the example of and this letter I 21 definitely cooled my heels for a year or two on --

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: As a result of that?

23 oh, yes. I was very, what's 24 the word -- I was cowardly. Like I'm not normally 25 cowardly. What people like about me is I'm very NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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.1..D 0 1 dignified, respectful, very smart, and I always treat 2 people respectfully but I'm straight. And I watched 3 what I said after that for about a year or so, maybe 4 a year and a half. I was very careful.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Did you feel you 7 were a marked man?

8 I had no clue. It was so 9 weird. Everything was weird. You couldn't rely on 10 anybody's behavior, even people like I had trusted it 11 was like you could see them behave in a way you 12 weren't sure that they were -- they were like you, 13 they were like -- felt like it's not a good thing to 14 speak up right now, so you weren't quite sure who --

15 it was hard to -- like, for example, 16 (phonetic), I loved the guy. I saw him be with 17 behavior that shocked me because it wasn't him. In 18 other words, it was actually I saw behavior of

• 19 that was like outrageous at the time, and then 20 he sat by quietly, and I just know him well enough 21 that it couldn't have sat right with him. So I think 22 it was like a rough time. To me, my bearings got 23 messed up. Like, in other words, you have a compass, 24 an internal compass.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

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13/

1 All of a sudden I didn't know 2 what was -- it was hard for me to figure out what the 3 hell was going on. These guys are talking like about 4 the tent, talking about safety, right, and to me it 5 was like smoke and I couldn't tell whether it was my 6 skewed perspective of safety or things were really out 7 of whack.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I think that you said 9 went on for about a year and a half after you had 10 switched positions.

11 My world, in my world.

12 -PCIAL AGENT NEFF: What changed that for 13 you to where you were more comfortable to speak out?

14 Actually, to be straight with 15 you, actually -a friend of mine from Engineering one 16 day said to me, 9 he was just sharing with me 17 some of the stuff he was taking an MBA and he said, 18 "Hey, I went and took this leadership class. This is 19 for you; go take it." I took this leadership class 20 and it was like a eye popper, it was like, "Holy cow, 21 look what I'm doing," and I just started acting bold 22 again.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was this the INPO 25 course or was this something else?

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.L -) 0 1 No. It was actually an 2 external course.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

4 It was actually a course 5 called the Landmark Forum, ever hear of it?

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I think I've 7 heard mention of it.

8 Yes.

9 (phonetic) and (phonetic) both took it to 10 do this thing. It's like the real deal. It's about 11 personal accountability and responsibility and about 12 what stops you in life. He said, "This is definitely 13 for you right now," so I went and did it.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you been in the 15 same mood since?

16 Yes. I've been --

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So roughly around '98 18 or so -- '98, '99?

19 Yes. I think I took it in 20 May 1998. It was actually I went back to and 21 said, "Thank you. You just gave me the best gift I've 22 ever had." He said, "No. You just gave yourself a 23 good gift. You just figured out what's running your 24 show." The fear's never going to go away in life, 25 you're always going to fear things. So it's like not NEAL R. GROSS QtX E COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 stopping in the face of fear is the trick, right?

2 It's not that you're not scared, it's just like don't 3 stop.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The fear's still 5 there, yes. In doing that, in operating in this mode 6 that we'll say that you're going to go ahead and say 7 what you have to say or raise concerns if you have to, 8 have you ever experienced retaliation for having been 9 the person that's going to speak out or say, "No, you 10 can't have this," or you challenge somebody who says, 11 "I didn't tell you to put up that tent." Do you get 12 any kind of push back or any adverse actions directed 13 towards you? Have you experienced that?

14 Tell you what, recently, in 15 the past several years, no. I tell you what, like I 16 said, in my world, fear exists. There are times I'm 17 scared, but I just go ahead anyway, because the more 18 I'm -- I actually am straight, the straighter I am the 19 better things work. When I'm hiding things or I'm 20 worried and I'm holding back, it just seems to not 21 work, my life doesn't work. Everything about my life 22 doesn't work when I hold back. So I do at times, and 23 for a day or two everything's screwy and I hold back 24 with being straight with my wife and everything will 25 go strange at home, and then I'll say what am I doing?

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1 Then I'll get back focused again. And it happens 2 here. Sometimes you get in your head you're having a 3 rough day, there's a challenge going on and you'll 4 just -- fear will -- for a short while you'll let the 5 fear get you, you know what I mean? I can't think of 6 anything concrete but it -- you know, it's just like 7 you always have this thing, like you've got a job, you 8 always want to do a good job, you're trying to figure 9 out what is a good job.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Sure.

11 (END TAPE 2, SIDE A) 12 (BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE B) 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's approximately 14 3:07 p.m.

15 L But it was like really hard 16 for that period of time to figure out -- up and down.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What period was this 18 again?

19 About the '97, '98 period.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, okay. Yes.

21 YYou couldn't like -- am I 22 realiy screwed'up or what? It was like --

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Till you got your 24 bearings is the way you put it.

25 Yes. I would say until I got NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 expectations there was a lot of mismatches at that 2 time. So you really didn't know whether you were 3 doing a good job or not. Seemed like -- and like I 4 said to the new plant managers we enrolled people and 5 they weren't good enough. We did a really good job of 6 enrolling people and they weren't good enough for two 7 years. We did an excellent job at that.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The situation on 9 sites changed with pretty many changes in your senior 10 management. " eaving, coming 11 in--

12 H~Correct.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- a couple of VP 14 changes. Do you see any effect overall in terms of 15 your being straightforward with the way it was, say, 16 in 2001, 2002 and the way it's structured now in 2003?

17 Do you have to change your approach in any way?

18 I think the way I'm looking 19 at it in terms of me volunteering to create this one-20 year deadline for myself around corrective action, to 21 me it's like I can either like observe or I can 22 actually cause a shift. So at times I worry, maybe 23 I'm being too bold, but I normally just keep going.

24 It's not like I have any specific worry. It's just 25 like things change so much.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

2 And so you always want to get 3 grounded in are you still perceived as actually adding 4 value. And that little chatter goes on in your head 5 and you say, wait a minute, be true to yourself, be 6 true yourself, and then that seems to be what works.

7 What's worked for me is when I keep on reminding 8 myself of that and stay true to who I am, like what my 9 commitments are. When I do that things seem to work, 10 although just like any other human we have those 11 little nagging conversations in our head, that sort of 12 thing happens.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: You mentioned you 14 had made some or were looking at trying to make a big 15 push to improve the corrective action process. In 16 your interactions with people, is there any 17 possibility that they could take that the wrong way, 18 that your push is, in your view, directed at improving 19 the process. Could anybody take that as a way of, I 20 don't know, implicating individuals, making things 21 more difficult for them, making it hard to write 22 notifications or if issues come up, maybe there's a 23 sense that maybe it's not what ants?

24 Certainly, the conversation 25 we had earlier about the chair you sit in, a lot of NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A i /-i 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 times people actually relate to the chair than what 2 they hear. So you could always have a situation where 3 somebody misconstrues intention. I think that's 4 probably what -- in terms of this world that we're 5 talking about, the safety conscious work environment, 6 that a lot of that's driven by what people perceive is 7 occurring.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, you know, 9 we've kind of cited a couple of examples. We talked 10 a little bit about grassing, we mentioned the spent 11 fuel pool leak. There's been other issues that have 12 come up, and I just wondered if they could play a role 13 in maybe people's perceptions. One of them was there 14 was an issue related to end leakage at Hope Creek. Do 15 you know anything about an end leakage issue at Hope 16 Creek?

17 Just like air leakage?

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Could be.

19 Okay. I can think of 20 condenser air leakage.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

22 What I remember about 23 condenser air leakage was I was out of plant for like 24 four or five years, right, but I noticed that they 25 were running a much higher end leakage rate. Like I NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A IC 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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144 1 was used to like 18, 19 SCFM. They were running 30, 2 31, and I thought that was a little high. Then they 3 had a couple times they ran way high, like they ran up 4 to where they would actually have to declare the off-5 gas monitors not operable and stuff.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

7 I'm aware that people had 8 some ALARA concerns --

9 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

10 - - about how we were easter 11 egging it.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

13 Like in other words, we kept 14 on trying to --

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was there 16 procedures that were followed, were notifications 17 being written, were things going properly or was there 18 ever any -- you said there were ALARA concerns. Was 19 there ever a sense that you had to -- where people 20 weren't allowing the process to satisfy them, whether 21 through written notifications or following procedures 22 or what have you?

23 I can't recall anything 24 specific.

25 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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1 Could have occurred. I 2 remember reading notifications about it. I remember 3 reading like a notification by an NCO that said we 4 were outside of our design requirements. I remember 5 reading that. I don' t know what transactions occurred 6 in and around his world.

7 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Now in your role 8 now as is that 9 something you would in some way get involved with?

10 Absolutely.

11 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. What kind 12 of -- I mean what would your role be in whatever 13 involvement you would have?

14 That impacts me a lot of 15 ways, right? One is it impacts off-gas flow, it 16 impacts off-gas release rates, right?

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

18 Functionality of RMS.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

20 Impacts sampling from off-21 gas, which is chemistry. It impacts radiation 22 protection coverage, impacts ALARA goals.

23 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. Sounds 24 like it's a pretty broad impact. Would that be --

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146 someone saying, "Hey, 0 we have this issue," and

2. then you making a comment back to them saying, "Well, 3 gee, maybe I'd better not raise that."

4 Oh,'I see what you mean.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: I mean could that 10 6 be construed as a deterrent to, say, writing a 12 7 notification, for example?

8 Oh, I see. I see the context 9 of your question. Like, for example, like pretend, 10 right? This is not a real conversation but pretend 11 that we're at 50 SCFM and we've gone in five times and 12 haven't found the leak.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

14 And the Rad Pro guys are 15 leaning in and saying, "We can't keep on going in and 16 getting 300 millirems."

17 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

18 ~Right?

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

20 One kind of safety issue like 21 dueling with another safety issue.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

23 Like that. That's 24 interesting. That could definitely have occurred. I 25 don't remember anything specific but I could see how NEAL R. ANDGROSSR I COURT REPORTER AND S TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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147 1 that could have generated.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was the -

3 involved in the incident you were just talking about?

4 I'm going to guess, right, 5 it's been a while, but I thought it was 6 (phonetic). I thought he wrote it. I could be wrong.

7 I forget when it was written, but it was written in 8 the last eight, nine months, something like that, 9 probably.

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: But you said 11 that's the one you actually read, that you did read 12 that or --

13 Yes. Well, actually -- I 14 mean because I was -- at the time I was' 15 16 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

17 I'm always like dealing with 18 things that are occurring --

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

20 -- and dealing with it.

21 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

22 That was by the one team in 23 Rad Pro, okay, but I was actually paying attention to 24 it and I actually would go in and look at 25 notifications that would impact the work, and I NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A11 7 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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148 1 remember going and reading that. I remember reading 2 that one day. It was actually strongly, strongly 3 worded. That's what I noted about it. It was like 4 very departed.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What was the 6 message in the notification?

7 O It was more or less like --

8 as I recall, the one of it was, "We're operating an 9 SCFM and it's beyond our design basis and we're being" 10 -- these words weren't used but it sounded like 11 bullied into tolerating it was like the tone of it.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. And what 13 was the adverse consequence of operating at full above 14 the design basis? I mean you mentioned some things.

15 Was there anything from a regulatory standpoint that 16 could have been exceeded? I mean could it affect 17 release rates?

18 Sure. It could have affected 19 a lot of things, including creating a trangent, up to 20 and including a trangent. Loss of vacuum, trangent.

21 Like I don't remember the exact citation he cited but 22 if we sat down for five minutes, you and I could 23 create five good reasons to make sure that you got 24 that right.

25 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you put a time 2 frame on this? Can you remember a month and a year 3 for that?

4 L I'm guessing spring of '03, 5 sometime in that realm.

6 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Was there 7 something that led to that change? I mean you said 8 you kind of were away from things, came back and you 9 noticed the flow rates were higher, and then on a 10 couple of occasions they were significantly higher.

11 Was there - -

12 I listened to the tapes that 13 Ops puts out, and I always used to. And then I wasn't 14 paying attention every day to that because that wasn't 15 my accountability. And then on the way in to work I 16 would listen and they'd say 32 SCFM and then I would 17 go talk to the chemistry guys and say, "Thirty-two?

18 Are you guys happy with 32?" Actually, things have 19 shifted. Like when I was at Hope 20 Creek we were looking for going to 14 or 15. Now it 21 turns out that we don't know more now from industry 22 experience than we -- that's too tight. In the 23 chemistry world you want some more oxygen in there so 24 we'll look at other plants. Going a little looser is 25 a good idea but not like -- we were getting into the NEAL R. GROSS A\\> 1 v COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 50s and the 60s. That's like not a little looser.

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

3 That's really pretty 4 degraded.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

6 I don't remember any specific 7 transactions other than I remember I read and noted 8 how passionate, demonstrative that notification was.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did it stay that way 10 or did it change? I mean did it have to be revised in 11 any way?

12 I don't know. Could have 13 been. I didn't really pay attention to its evolution 14 other than it turned into work. I didn't pay 15 attention to the -- I didn't pay much attention to it.

16 Could have changed. I'm just not -- if it did, I'm 17 not aware of it.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Nothing 19 further on that?

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: No.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We had talked 22 about a couple incidents and I indicated to you that 23 we'd be interested in talking about instances where --

24 Can I just interrupt up?

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1 or so after and I think it was Kim Harvin who asked me 2 a question about that about a week ago the 3 notification went in and asked me if I noticed that 4 and what my feelings were about it?

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This strongly worded 6 notification?

7 Yes. And I said, okay, it's 8 an appropriate notification. I wouldn't have been so 9 dramatic in my language. I would have been more 10 professional in my language, but it looked like it was 11 properly written. I'm not sure of the design basis, 12 I don't remember, it's been a while, but if it is a 13 design basis issue, it has to be dealt with 14 immediately.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that's what you 16 would have told Kim Harvin?

17 Yes. I had a delayed 18 reaction there because I -- did anybody else ever talk 19 to me about that? I'm just trying to think. Yes, I 20 can recall her asking me about it shortly thereafter.

21 I don't remember the exact day but it was like shortly 22 after, "Did you see, did you notice this?"

23 I SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And what was 24 her reason for being involved with the issue?

25 J I think she said somebody NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 brought it to her attention and was concerned it 2 wasn't going to get addressed properly. I don't 3 remember who, though.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

5 Could have been the person 6 who wrote it. I don't remember, though.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you see -- it 8 seems like you're saying you didn't see follow all the 9 way through. Do you know if it got the proper level 10 of attention?

11 oh, it did. As I mentioned, 12 the leak was found.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you didn't know 14 whether any of the wording changed or anything else 15 changed about it.

16 No.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But, ultimately, the 18 problem was fixed.

19 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What's the 20 alternative, though? If you can't find the leak, what 21 is it, to lower power? I'm struggling with what's 22 your choice? You either try and find the leak or you 23 do something to abate the effect of the leak. I mean 24 it seems like -- I mean you could take the unit 25 offline, but that may be an extreme measure, an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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153 1 external measure.

2 Right.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Is there some in 4 between position you can take?

S 2 That's a very good question.

6 I apologize but it just struck me -- your question 7 just struck me. That's an interesting one. You're 8 bringing it in the context of dueling safety concerns, 9 right?

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

11 That definitely makes that 12 question even richer. Yes. If you really look at it, 13 it's really complex, because you can't find the leak 14 -- I mean flow, right?

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Right.

16 What it really boils down to 17 is you having all your ducks in a row before you go 18 look for it, because to get rid of the safety ALARA 19 concern, you have to be ready and nail it, like 20 actually have your investigation be very acute and 21 focused, but shutting down isn't going to fix it.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: That won't help 23 you.

24 Won't help you.

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154 1 have the flow.

2 You won't have the flow.

3 Very interesting question.

4 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: What about the 5 dose rate in the area? Can you have a reasonable 6 amount of flow at 20 or 30 percent power, so you could 7 do the troubleshooting or the inspection, whatever 8 you're going to end up doing as compared to 100 9 percent power? I mean is most dose rate N16 related 10 or is it --

11 Most of it is N16 related.

12 As you go down in power, you're effectiveness in 13 sniffing for it will diminish. It's like a curve.

14 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

15 Right? So as far as the 16 ALARA safety concern going as far down in power 17 without impacting the accuracy of the sniffing, if you 18 will, the detection method is a good thing, but it's 19 like kind of two curves you have to manage.

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: There maybe is an 21 optimum point.

22 There's an optimum point, 23 yes.

24 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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155 1 question.

2 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

3 I never thought of it in the 4 context of dueling, having like one safety concern --

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Dueling safety 6 concerns.

7 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, oftentimes 8 there is dilemmas like that where you have to have a 9 certain type of plant condition to be able to 10 troubleshoot in some condition.

11 Yes. But I hadn't actually 12 thought of it in this context. I always thought about 13 in dueling -- like what you want as an outcome and 14 they don't jive. And I actually never looked at it 15 from the point of, "Oh, these guys are a safety 16 concern because we got 300 millirem last week and they 17 think we're not paying good enough attention to it.

18 And these are saying, "Fix the leak." Without fixing 19 the leak you're bothering me.

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes.

21 Yes. That's a good question.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

23 I think that might have been 24 part of her question to me, like explain it to me, 25 explain what all the pressures are. Like, in other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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156 1 words, what are all the competing issues?" I think 2 that's what part of her question was around. I can't 3 -- it's been a while.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: There's another issue 5 in that time frame that had to do with the tritium 6 issue and levels of tritium found, which would be, 17 what, around spring.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: That was what I 9 was talking about, the spent fuel pool.

10 Spent fuel pool?

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

12 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes. I think --

13 do you have anything else you wanted to share on that?

14 § I mean i know that right now 15 we have like a very high well sample close into the 16 Coffer Dam. We have other high well samples inside 17 the Coffer Dam. We're talking about states pushing 18 for a hydraulic connectivity test, a drawdown test, 19 he's pushing for a remediation plan so we don't have 20 any unrestricted area exceedances, if you will, with 21 migration.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, I know that 23 they have indicated to us in conversations and I think 24 also to PSEG in the same context that they feel that 25 if there's a leakage anywhere that's not within an NEAL R. GROSS at COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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157 1 engineered barrier that it's presumed to enter the 2 waters of the state and to basically go into the 3 Delaware River.

4 Right.

5 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: And I think 6 that's their posture.

7 Their driving thing, yes.

8 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes. They're 9 saying that you don't even have to do the hydrology --

10 the study of the hydrology of the island, because once 11 it's beyond that --

12 They'll just assume it goes.

13 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: -- they' 11 assume 14 it will get there, and they're not going to take any 15 kind of delay time or anything like that into effect.

16 Right. Yes. They're 17 pressuring us to get rid of it --

18 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Yes.

19 -- pump it out.

20 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Well, for us it's 21 an Appendix B issue. I mean it's a corrective action 22 issue.

23 Yes. I think nothing 24 specific I can think of.

25 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay.

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158 1 It could exist, it's just not 2 easily recalled. I can't remember anything like that.

3 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Okay. And what 4 about along the lines of any pressure directives, 5 anything that you ever felt or saw or heard about that 6 placed production over safety, any issues along those 7 lines?

8 Given the way you ask the 9 question, I'd have to say probably I'm sure there has 10 been but, like I said, it's like a continuum, like who 11 you're talking to and when.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You mean based on 13 somebody's perception of it?

14 'No. More like who is it 15 you're talking with, how much fear is involved, how 16 high is the fear factor? I know that I at times 17 worried whether -- this is like the earlier 18 conversation, should I say something now and then not 19 say something when I was a little bit worried about 20 the outcome? But it's dated.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's dated stuff.

22 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: You're talking 23 about in the time frame of '98 or whenever you were 24 working in --

/

25

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CICD 1 Somebody from Newark?

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, pressure from 3 there in terms of start-up, shutdowns, any pressure on 4 the site ? Did you ever become aware that that was a 5 factor?

6 Past couple years we're 7 talking?

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes.

9 Mostly? No. No. I would 10 say the only thing I can think of is like people's 11 perception, including mine in moments, of local senior 12 executives here. I actually like the way Hub Miller 13 said it. I think, actually, it was more appropriate 14 like self-censorship. I could definitely see like in 15 my realm like saying averting nuclear disaster issues 16 or whatever is very strong language which might get a 17 negative on a lot, but if it ends up in the context of 18 self-censorship I could definitely see myself doing 19 that at times, just being worried, I'm not sure how

.20 this would blend, like the no work going on from in 21 November and December, just like censoring myself.

22 You know what I'm saying? Like, in other words, the 23 reason we're shutting down is because it's stated for 24 safety. Well, I have my safety concern but it might 125 not last. At!

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But that's issues 2 that you raised at that time.

3 " Yes. You know what I mean?

4 Like, in other words, it's almost like kind of what 5 you were talking about with the ALARA thing. It's 6 like will it get heard, do they want to hear something 7 like another kind of safety concern right now? I 8 would say that I was guilty of self-censorship for 9 several weeks, for weeks, about eight or nine weeks.

10 . SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: Those are 11 difficult things to analyze because what you're doing 12 is you're kind of taking a quick look at yourself and 13 your own performance.

14 t F Yes.

15 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: You know, and 16 saying am I doing enough? Am I speaking up at the 17 right time? Am I saying what I need to say?

18 Yes. Well, I actually went 19 to the Maintenance Director after I fessed up with 20 them. I apologized for being a coward, and he said, 21 "Yes, that's not like you." He said, "You always tell 22 me right to my face." Like his experience with me has 23 been strange and he said, "What was this all about?!

24 That was 'Awf reaction. And I fessed up and --

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1 just your responsibility. I mean you could argue that 2 there were probably a number of people in a number of 3 different levels in the organization that could have 4 done what you did.

5 Yes. I said, "Look, I 6 apologize. I thought you just wanted to deal with the 7 safety concern you were dealing with and I thought you 8 didn't need my pattern." And he said, "Oh, 9 contraire." He said, "I felt so alone, so isolated, 10 so not helped. I would have grabbed you like that."

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this is 12 (phonetic).

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

14 Yes.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The S~il h IPM '

16 _"I ,

17 When I actually went to him 18 and fessed up that I had all these ideas, he said --

19 I thought he was going to be upset. He said, "That's 20 when I most.needed help."

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When was the time 22 frame for that where you said you had --

23 November and December.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh-2?

r- /

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W ybd 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you had the 2 hesitation.

3 1 Well, it was like, "How can 14 you -- it's almost like not as clear as ALARA v. Zien 5 (phc*Qetic), right? This is more like Maintenance is 6 not good enough, safe enough to do work. That's what 7 the contention is. I didn't believe that.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

9 .j- I believe it was an 10 accountability issue.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you can't not do.

12 work.

13 But you can't not do work.

14 But I'm going to say, "Do work," and they're going to 15 say, "I'm worried about production and I'm really 16 worried about safety, so chill out."

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you would.be seen 18 as pushing production over the safety issue.

19 I A Yes.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That was your fear on 21 that.

22

• Yes. And I was clear there 23 was work that had to get done.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

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164 1 make sense, guys." They were more or less declaring 2 you can't do it. So it we can't do it, shut them 3 down.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEEF: That would be the 5 concern in reverse.

6 It would be the concern in 7 reverse.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have anything 9 further?

10 SENIOR ENGINEER BARBER: No. I don't have 11 anymore questions at this point.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. I want to go 13 off the record briefly, check my notes and then I 14 think we can wrap it up.

15 Very good.

16 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 17 the record at 3:33 p.m. and went back on 18 the record at 3:33 p.m.)

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Back on the record 20 after about 30 seconds. It's approximately 3:33.

21 Would you like to add anything at this time?

22 Q7JNo. I think at the moment --

23 if I think of anything, I'll certainly --

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You can contact me.

25 -- get in touch with you.

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16 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You always have the 2 opportunity to do that --

.3 Sure.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- and I would hope 5 so. At this point, I'll just ask you closing 6 questions. They are have I or any other NRC 7 representative offered you any promises of reward or 8 threatened you in any manner in exchange for your 9 information today?

10 No promises or threats were 11 given.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

13 Or offered.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you appeared 15 here freely and voluntarily?

16 I have appeared here freely 17 and voluntarily.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. I have to 19 thank you for your time. It was a considerable amount 20 of time, and I appreciate you doing that.

21 Yes, very good. You're 22 always welcome.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We're off the record.

24 It's about 3:34 p.m.

25 (Whereupon, at 3:34 p.m., the Interview of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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166 1 1fvmsm was concluded.)

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10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: -2003-051F Location: Hancock's Bridge, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.

Mia Thai Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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