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Text

OI Interview Transcript of Witness, Dated 02/26/2004, Pages 1-192
	ML061460343
Person / Time
Site:	Salem, Hope Creek
Issue date:	02/26/2004
From:	; NRC/OI
To:	;
References
	1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1364
	Download: ML061460343 (194)
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{{#Wiki_filter:",3Lu~ini x1 fiIascript 0[ irroceeatings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Title: Interview 0fa ý I ~- _.-_.j Docket Number: 1-2003-051 F, (~J, U~J1~ *~ C~ ~ Location: Salem, New Jersey Date: Thursday, February 26, 2004 Work Order No.: NRC-1 364 Pages 1-192 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

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Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 Ufltormation in th's record Was deleled in accordance With theFreedom of Information Act, exemptions

1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 -------------------------- x 7 IN THE MATTER OF: 8 INTERVIEW OF : Docket No. 9 : 1-2003-051F 10 (Closed) 11 ------------------------- x 12 Thursday, February 26, 2004 13 14 Resident's Office, Salem 15 Hope Creek Station 16 17 The above-entitled interview was conducted 18 at 2:42 p.m. 19 20 BEFORE: 21 Special Agent EILEEN NEFF 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:00 a.m.) 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: do you 4 acknowlege that is your understanding that you are 5 being approached as a witness. Am I right? 6 That is correct. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you agreed 8 voluntarily to meet with us for the purpose of the 9 interview? 10 11O Yes, I did. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And also we 12 discussed that we would conduct the interview under 13 oath. If you could raise your right hand, please. Do 14 you swear that the information that you are about to 15 provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 16 the truth so help you God?

                        ~I                  do.

17 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Thank you. 19 What I would like to do is to establish some 20 identifying information for you, please. That would be 21 date of birth, social security number. 22 23 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And a home address, 25 please? NEAL R. GROSS All Ic-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 2 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And a summary, 4 please, for your education. 5 Education, high school 6 diploma. I have approxmatel. 7

            'U         -          -. S.

8 I'm 9 sorry. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 11 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. At what point 13 in time? Is that ongoing or did you end in a 14 particular year? 15 I've been pursuing it over 16 the past couple of years. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And then after 18 that, your employment history. Where did you start 19 working? 20 I started working for public service in 13 MA-M6* 21 22 S I worked there 23 approximately seven years. 24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In what osition? NEAL R. GROSS I C-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

2 3 Actually I was coming to the 4 Island to work at Hub Creek was the original 5 assignment but being that they brought us down so 6 early they wanted us to fill in at Salem for two 7 years. 8 1,, began* 9 10 12 13 14

.5 -

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I don't want you to 17 get too far ahead. Can I just ask you when you were 18 on staff you were 19Mab 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So for 21 the last two years on shift you were in different 22 positions? 23 231 was like a staff x 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What type of 25 assignment is there?

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1 That was mostly working with 2 the outage groups on outage preparations. 3 MR. BARBER: The Hope Creek operation 4 staff like a day shift? 5

Correct.

6 MR. BARBER: Coordinate with other 7 organizations representing operations?

                              **                Correct.

8 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And then I 10 interrupted you when you were talking about a WON So at this point 11 12 is this when it's and you've given up your 13 14 That is correct. At that 15 point my primary duties were procedure 16 J Then I was moved into the 17 eQ I served in that role for -18 approximately two years. I transferred to th, 19 20 MR. BARBER: When was that? k e 21 atoabout( Thwas I worked 22 in~§ 23 I nd the quality inspectors there. 24 Then I moved over to as 25 for about two years. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 7a 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Where was that? 2 Hope Creek. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Hope Creek 4 -.- Is all of your experience in 5 on the Hope Creek side? 6 Other than the work at Salem, 7 yes. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Initially way 9 back in ttime frame? .10 L* -*Correct. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 12 MR. BARBER: You said you were in 13 . Roughly when was that? You said for 14 about two years? 15 -QYeah. I would say from4* 16 17 MR. BARBER: 18 19 MR. BARBER:. Where did you go 20 from 21 I went back t.Jas 22 a -- I was really brought out to help develop theb 23 at'Hope Creek. At the time it was the 24 ... W.. .......... --.. but they needed 25 some he i 0 -- to participate in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 7 Cý' (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com v

1 I was asked to come upstairs 2 and work on that. 3 SPECIAL AGENI 7 NEFF: How long did that 4 last then? 5 JTwo to three years. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So around 7 another change for you? 8 Just about the beginning of 9 i1 is when I left there when I went to the work 10 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. The work

      '            ..    .   . J    was that a new function or was that 13       something that had been in                 existence?

14 Q*No. That was a newly created 15 function. 16 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Riht At 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And your position 19 there was what? 20 It was basically the Hope 21 Creek 7

                                               'n0m     -on      the team.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For how long? 23 Trom or 24 Then I was assigne~d to be the I 25

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1 MR. BARBER: Is that at Hope Creek, Salem, 2 or both? 3 9- That was both. That when we 4 first began with the one 5 MR. BARBER: Okay. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The position for the 7t 8 that time when it was created, the 9 center? 10 J The leader of that at first 11 was a gentleman named! I S /and we all reported 12 through Then about six months -before they 13 .disbanded that. jeft and they put me in charge 14 for that duration. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. That brings us 17 sites in . Right? 18 Right. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Until? 20 And then we did a second work 21 management reorganization and I was named to the 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I 24 5 Correct. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 w That may nave been like the 2 fall o know what I'm saying? I don't 3 remember the exact dates. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was there a 6 j At that point yes. It was 7 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you're 9 looking -- 10 Prior to that it was_ 11 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you're 13 looking at It was first Min 14 and then '1.0iii0in the fall of 15 2 Correct. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So it's not 17

i it's when the second reorg of work 18 management occurred?

19 Yes. I believe it was the 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And that's 22 when you went to the . i 23 24 j Correct. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So fall of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS (1 ' 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1

Let me just change my- to*

2 Imsorry. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, that's all right. 4 It,'s f experience. I can't expect you to 5 have it all. I should have said you could bring a 6 resume. I should have thought that. When you have 7 that much experience, that's the way it goes. But 8 we're getting there. So now we're at the fall of. 9 and in that position how long did you stay? 10 . . Approximately 18 months to 20 11 months. Something like that. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 13 MR. BARBER: That was early to mid 14 1 Um-hum. May of I was 15 moved to the 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF; What was that name? 17 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that a 19 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: for the 21 record. 22 ~Okay. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:. I couldn't begin to 24 guess on that one. Okay. you're 25 saying? NEAL R. GROSS "7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Right. That was a rotational 2 assignment. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 4 For two years. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But that changed then 6 because the reorg affected that then? You didn't last 7 there two years. So you stayed in that position until 8 the fall of-L'Ma 9 9 Correct. 10 SPECIALAGENT NEFF: Okay. So what were 11 your assignments then in the What 12 kind of work? 13 Overseeing contractor work on 14 installation of design change packages and then some 15 outage related contractor activities. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in terms of the 17 contracting work on design changes, what kind of 18 equipment did that affect? 19 4 It affected the fire op work 20 at Salem along with the other changes for Appendix R 21 modifications. That was my first assignment. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Which would affect 23 what? 24 . Cable reroutes to safety 25 related components, modification to the CBCS system, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 and modifications to the diesel controls. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Diesel controls? 3 Yes. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you did 5 that for about a year and a half or so, I guess, until 6 the fall of 2003. Now you are a A M " 7 and that encompasses both sites now. So this is the 8 first time you've had -- projects group was Hope Creek 9 or was that to both? 10 T haThat was to both. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that your first

12. shift back to Salem in that length of time?

13 No. Thee 14 Was for both sites. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So that's fall of 17 jjRight. Everything from '99 18 up was one site. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 20 Everything from '99 up was 21 one site. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. After that 23 was created then you were for 24 both? 25 JIMI" One site, yes. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. All right. 2 Now, if you could just give us an idea form 3 , your basic duties. What are your 4 responsibilities in that position? What are you 5 coordinating? 6 We coordinate contractor 7 activities for the outages, verify that their 8 schedules are adequate, that the work pack is prepped, 9 check their quality training. Basically make sure 10 that they are working inside our program standards, 11 provide assistance. If there are parts or something 12 they can't get, they complete their activities if 13 there is additional support needed. During 14 forced outages I serve as a I at 15 Hope Creek. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you've had a 17 couple of those, I guess, recently. 18 ] Too many. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. All right. Is 20 that everything covering the experience? 21 Yes. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thanks for going 23 through that. The benefit of that is so Scott and I 24 have an idea where you've been, what you've been 25 exposed to so basically where we can ask some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4( 7 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

_______________________________________________________ I ~ 1 questions and what you may or may not have knowledge 2 of. The safety conscious work environment is so very 3 broad and so is your experience. 4 The best way to probably start this would 5 be in terms of recent years, and maybe we should go 6 from like '99/2000 time frame forward. In recent 7 years where you've seen both sites in action, so to 8 speak, can you describe the work environment on site? 9 To put that in a little bit of focus for 10 you, what we are looking at are people's ability to 11 raise concerns of any nature, nuclear safety, 12 radiological safety, industrial safety, any type of 13 concerns. Their ability to do that, do they do that, 14 do they do so comfortably, in other words, without 15 fear of any retaliation or reprisal. And what 16 responses did they get to it when they raised an 17 issue. 18 If I start you there, that's kind of a 19 large chunk of time, '99/2000 forward. In asking that 20 and considering how that works on site, do you see 21 that it has strength? Do you see that it has any 22 weaknesses or has there been any change in how all of 23 that works over that~period of time? 24 7cet me start with this. Let 25 me start with how we identify issues. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 2 'We use a notification process 3 here. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 5 *7It's rather impersonal, it's 6 very cold, and it doesn't provide a lot of feedback to 7 the originator of an issue or concern. From that 8 perspective, I think people are encouraged to put 9 notifications in but I don't know that we really 10 address the concerns in a timely manner or address 11 them back to the originator because of that process. 12 Kind of everything goes into the box is the term used 13 and there's no feedback group. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It goes to a box 15 where there's no personal connection to somebody gets 16 tagged as accountable for it? It just sits somewhere? 17 Why do you think it is that it may have some feedback 18 problems? 19 First of all, I think part of 20 the start off of the thing is we don't really have 21 someone in that individual's food chain reveal it. 22 Years ago we used to put notifications under action 23 items in the old system and the supervisors had to 24 review them as part of the process. We took that out 25 but I think what it did was it kind of got some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 disengagement there. 2 My feeling is the years I've been in the 3 industry the first person you should be going to is 4 your supervisor and he should be trying to fix 5 anything he can, especially safety concerns for his 6 employees, right? This kind of like took him out of 7 the loop or leaves him out of the loop if it's 8 convenient. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He may or may not be 10 in. 11 , 4 May not get engaged. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 13 Okay. He might not even be 14 aware of it because the person doesn't have to let his 15 supervisor know that he's got a concern. It's got 16 good aspects in one way that you could get something 17 out there but there are other ways to handle that. 18 I think that was part of the problem. There was some 19 disengagement between the identifiers and the people 20 that should be taking action right away. 21 As far as feedback to the individuals, I 22 know that for the modifications I've put in over the 23 years and I think in general people don't hear back 24 what's going on with their problem. 25 MR. BARBER: Do you have a way of going in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the system and just checking status? Can you go in 2 and look at something you wrote and see what people 3 have written against it to see where things stand? 4 'You could do that. You could 5 do that. Peri:pdi~callyJ like myself, and I still do 6 this everyday, I go in and pretty much everyday scan 7 the notifications. I kind of go through and see the 8 ones that may have some kind of concern or implication 9 to the equipment. 10 Something we should know about and get 11 engaged in and see what's running and see how the 12 dispositioning is going, where it's going, has it been 13 dispositioned. You know what I'm saying? Is it 14 assigned to someone. 15 MR. BARBER: How about you personally, 16 though, for the ones you've written? Have you made a 17 point of going back in some period checking either the 18 system to see what's in the system or if you know who 19 the contact is to just pick up the phone and call the 20 contact and say, "Hey, where do things stand with my 21 issue, my notification?" 22 Usually I'll do that. 23 Sometimes what I'll also do is if I know who's got it 24 I'll call to make sure we are clear on what the 25 problem statement really was and provide some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 suggestions what I was looking for as far as 2 resolution. 3 MR. BARBER: Do you find that to be 4 helpful? 5 I find that to be helpful. 6 MR. BARBER: What kind of feedback do you 7 get from the other end? 8 - Sometimes you've got feedback 9 that they didn't really understand the issue at first. 10 They thought we were looking for something else so 11 that communication link between everybody here, to me, 12 is not reinforced. Also you take a lot of initiative 13 to do that because it's hard to contact people around 14 here, especially for a guy that may be on back shift. 15 You know, voice mails don't always get responded to. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about e-mails or 17 anything? The same way? 18 Same thing. I mean, you 19 could go in somebody' s e-mail, you know, and it may be 20 backed up and the message may not even get through 21 because the e-mail is so filled up that messages 22 aren't getting in. That's maybe 15 or 20 percent of 23 the people from my perspective, but that's enough, I 24 mean if people don't hear back. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The communication NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS AU 1/C. / 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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A .. 1 link problem. 2 -/Correct. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When we were talking 4 before, and this is briefly off the record and we were 5 talking about when you went to the i l m..... 6 .part of what you were doing there was 7 you had described it as reviewing the incoming 8 notifications and sending them to work management or 9 to engineering. I guess you were resolving them as 10 they were coming in, resolving what you could. You 11 were going to, I think it was, Work It Now? 12 Yeah, Work It Now. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The WIN team doing it 14 that way. But you had indicated that you thought it 15 was effective and it was working. Did something 16 change in here that made this system the way you are 17 describing it, going to a box, impersonal and cold? 18 What changed in there? 19 I think as part of the second 20 reorganization of work management it was decided that 21 we didn't need people doing that and there was another 22 group chartered when we reorganized work management 23 that was three like entities in that. That was the 24 incoming screening group that was supposed to pick up 25 some of that. On their behalf, they were supposed to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 have an SRO from both Hope Creek and Salem. Never had 2 it. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It didn't happen? 4 No. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For the incoming 6 screening group? 7 Right. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Whose decision was 9 that that it wasn't something that you were going to 10 staff? 11 I don't know that it was 12 anybody's decision. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 14 IIt's typical here that we say 15 we are going to do something and it doesn't happen and 16 then there is no accountability for that. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It just went away? 18 Um-hum. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 20 111It's just not enforced. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Were there any 22 other reasons for where it was effective at one point, 23 the notification screening process, to bring it to 24 this situation that you see now as no feedback? Was 25 there anything else that affected that in terms of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS AJf/ 1c, 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 handling notifications or was it primarily related to 2 the initial screening that they were getting? 3 MV We had people dedicated to 4 that process. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How many people? 6 It was about five. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For both sites? 8 gFor both sites. 9 MR. BARBER: Five total? 10 Five total. To make sure we 11 captured both sides correctly. Like we only had one 12 maintenance rep, one engineering rep, but we did have 13 SRO representation for both sites because we were 14 concerned that me with my BWR background some things 15 that were very significant maybe for me I would miss 16 on the Salem side so I wanted to make sure we had the 17 right SRO expertise for any concerns that came 18 through. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. That was up 20 until this 2000 second reorganization? 21 4 _Correct. The other thing I 22 forgot to tell you, too, we did work with the priority 23 of the orders, what is most important, what can go 24 into a system. We tried to bucket work out where it 25 should fall. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 4fj/-{ (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. BARBER: Who was on the screening 2 committee? I mean, you portrayed a set of 3 circumstances where there was some, I guess, desire to 4 disband this work management center but to kind of 5 pick up the functions to kind of acknowledge the 6 functions were performed that were important, but to 7 pick them up in discrete activities. 8 One of the things you started to talk 9 about was the screening center. There had to be 10 people on there that had some knowledge of the plan. 11 What kind of people were they? Were-these previous 12 operators but maybe not SROs, or were they people that 13 just came up through maintenance or engineering or 14 what was the mix like? 6a On the first one? 16 MR. BARBER: When you went from the 17 , the like the 18 kind of people tfat were on there. 19 J The leader of that group and 20 the screening was going to be -- is it all right to 21 use the person's name? 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes. 23 ow I think you 24 remembe right? He had the incoming screening, 25 okay? Basically the real change came was, "We don't NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 need to do this tull time. We can do this on a 2 part-time basis." It was going to be like an hour or 3 two each morning. SRO come over from Hope Creek, one 4 from Salem, had a maintenance rep and engineering rep, 5 and that would go through. 6 Look at all the orders that came in on 7 notifications and decide where to put them and where

                                                                     *~got             a 8   to buck them.             You've got to understand#*

9 role to get so many processed in so much time. SROs 10 don't show up. Maintenance guy may not show up. 11 Engineering rep may not show up. I think the 12 engineering rep was fairly consistent. Of course, 13 and his people. 14 It's kind of like it degrades to we've got 15 to do something with these notifications so being that 16 1 had a bit of an SRO background, he was previously 17 the system engineering manager, he's doing his best 18 shot at getting these things screened. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What's his background 20 in? Is he trained in both BWR and PWR? 21 I'm pretty sure he was BWR 22 background. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So there could have 24 been some issues on the Salem side that would be 25 missed because he doesn't have the background to NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 74'! CA:>, 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 screen for that? 2 That potential is always 3 there. Either way I don't think had both. I 4 know he was th at Hop 5 Creek so I'm assuming that they put him there because 6 his background was from a boiler but I may be 7 mistaken. Was Perry a boiler? 8 MR. BARBER: I don't recall. 9 I think he came maybe from 10 Perry but I'm not sure. 11 MR. BARBER: Oh, you mean the plant Perry. 12 I thought you were talking about somebody here. Yeah, 13 Perry's a boiler.

                          ~okay.

14 15 MR. BARBER: Yeah, Perry's a boiler. 16 47I think that's where he had 17 come from. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So his background is 19 like your background then. So what happens with the 20 accumulated notifications? How is that addressed? 21 43 From the standpoint of? 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You were saying 23 something like this happened where SROs aren't showing 24 up. They are not dedicated to looking at reviewing 25 the notifications so what happens next is basically NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 what I'm asking. How does it get handled? 2 Well, based o looking 3 at them and his team and this is important and this 4 has to get through right away, he would put the 5 priority and put it through. I mean, I think there 6 were times when we probably had a couple of hundred 7 notifications backed up. Anywhere from a week to two 8 to three weeks. 9 MR. BARBER: Was it like that with the 10 work management center?, 11 We always had some that we 12 were holding but from the standpoint the ones that we 13 were trying to hold would be to gather additional 14 information from the -- 15 MR. BARBER: The originator? 16 The originator or where we 17 were going to be sending it to., We aren't real clear 18 who was going to get it so we were trying to make sure 19 we got it into the right bucket. We wouldn't assign 20 something without making sure the right person had it. 21 We had a goal of three days and we used to check. 22 There may be times when we had five that were beyond 23 the three-day limit. 24 MR. BARBER: What was the typical input on 25 a day, 20 to 30? NEAL R. GROSS A/ COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 jJ More than that. I would say 2 it was probably closer to 50. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We'll take a quick 4 break. It's 10:37 approximately. 5 (Whereupon, at 10:37 a.m. off the record 6 until 10:42 a.m.) 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We're back on the 8 record. It's about 10:42 a.m. 9 What we were talking about before the 10 brief interruption was how after the second 11 reorganization for the work management center in 2000 12 where you had five people dedicated to screening 13 notifications, the incoming notifications, that was 14 reduced to one individual and a team with no SROs 15 dedicated to it on a regular basis and that there was 16 a backlog. 17 I guess the difference was that if you had 18 a backlog-- my understanding of what you are 19 explaining is that if you had a backlog when you were 20 in the work management center before with your team of 21 five, it was something that you tried to get to and 22 screen within three days. If it was sitting, it was 23 sitting for a reason. It was going to have to be 24 reclassified as a safety concern or it was going to 25 have to be put into -- you needed a little further NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.corn

1 work to determine how to handle it. 2 It had been looked at but it just needed 3 some resolution. Whereas opposed to what happens 4 later, it sounds like there's a couple hundred 5 notifications that haven't been seen yet. They 6 haven't received any type of screening. 7 MR. BARBER: She's talking about in the 8 new organization. 9 *There were times where they 10 were backed up even redoing them. There were times 11 where they had done an initial review and not gotten 12 so that backlog was a combination of two issues. 13 SPECIAL-AGENT NEFF: Okay. 14 One, we haven't gotten to 15 look at them at all yet. We've looked at them but 16 we've got them sitting to the side until we get some 17 resolution or further information. 18 MR. BARBER: Is it still that way today? 19 I can't answer that today. 20 MR. BARBER: I mean, the work management 21 center, was that recreated or did you go back to that? 22 Is that still under the same process where it's a 23 discrete screening with a group that is doing the 24 screening? 25 I know there is one NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 individual in work management, it's my understanding, 2 screening notifications. I think one for Hope Creek 3 and one for Salem. I really don't understand the 4 workings right now to tell you the truth. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who is dedicated to 6 that right, now by name? Do you know? 7 I believe it's" 8 (phonetic) is reviewing for Hope Creek. I'm not sure 9 of the Salem individual. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is he an SRO? 11 Uno. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What organization 13 does he come from? 14 Work management. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Operations, though? 16 operations background? 17 I'm not sure if his 18 background was operations or not. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. When there is 20 this backlog in the second half of this organization 21 later in 2000, when you said that some of the 22 notifications need resolution, they are sitting and 23 they need resolution, at that point are people getting 24 feedback? You know, "We've looked at this and we have 25 to do something further." Or, "We've looked at this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and we don't agree that this is a concern." Do they 2 get that kind of feedback? m 3 I think#'did do some of 4 that. To what extent I do not know. I know there 5 were times where he was holding things where he may 6 not have agreed like with something engineering may 7 have put in or for design change or whatever. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 9 But every specific one, no. 10 I can't tell you how he handled each one. ii SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in terms of while 12 you were working on it and the people that they had 13 dedicated before the staff that you had before, if 14 somebody said that they had a safety concern and you 15 review it and you didn't agree with that individual, 16 what kind of handling would it get? 17 You would have to go back and 18 talk to the individual who submitted the request for 19 the notification. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did that happen? 21 1Yes. It was typically either 22 myself o " -- I'm sorry. I forgot last 23 name right now. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is he still on? 25 SNo. He's up in Newark now. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 7/Cl 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 We would try to get back to the initiator and discuss 2 the issue and make sure we have common understanding 3 and then proceed from there. Sometimes when you talk 4 to the individual you can get, "Well, it's not really 5 a safety issue for me. I'm trying to get this fixed." 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It might have been 7 something misclassified as a safety issue. 8 -As a safety issue. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: They were willing to 10 cal it something else. 11 3 "We understand and here's 12 where we're putting it." We also had a maintenance 13 rep so he was helpful talking with the maintenance 14 guys. That was jJ(phonetic). 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 16 He's still here. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Now, if it 18 worked that way when you had your team of five, did 19 that change afterward? Under the team 20 were they going back to people who had concerns and 21 hashing it out with them if there was some 22 disagreement over what it would be classified? 23 01I.J That I can't tell you. Like 24 I say, I remember he was holding some for further 25 information. Whether that was coming from the WIN I C NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 team or whether he was looking for further information 2 from the initiator, I'm not sure. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you hear that at 4 that point in time as a concern of anybody on site 5 that you put in a notification and you get no feedback 6 at all? 7

j I've heard that for a long 8 time on the island as a complaint in my world that you 9 put a notification in and that's the last you hear 10 about it. Some people are surprised. They don't want 11 to find them closed with no action.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. They never 13 knew that it was a closed concern. 14 Right. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you say for a 16 long time, when did you start hearing that? 17 I would say over the past 18 three years, four years maybe. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So sometime after 20 they didn't have a dedicated team to looking at these? 21 jiW I think that had an impact. 22 I don't know if it was just us in the room but, yeah, 23 I don't think that loop was being maintained. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did anybody raise a 25 concern about how much resources was put into handling NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.cam

1 the notifications? Was that addressed in anyway? 2 M= Yes, That the issue kept 3 coming up and we kept discussing it at staff meetings 4 not having the SROs involved. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: To what level would 6 that be raised? Who was that being discussed with? 7 All the way up to( 0 8 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 10 I was supposed to have two 11 SROs in my group and long-term planning scheduling. 12 At the time we were chartered with the developing the 13 schedules all the way out from like T16 down to T10 14 making sure all the right work was getting into the 15 scope. 16 Actually, we had developed a three-year 17 schedule earlier so they pretty much had been laid out 18 when I was at Hope Creek. But we were still working 19 on refinements. As you get new PMs and frequencies 20 you would have to move windows around. It's almost 21 critical to have an SRO involved in that. 22 Also, when we're trying to bucket and 23 scope the work into the right buckets hoping to know 24 where the fake boundaries are, what work goes in the 25 right buckets, that's what we built the organization NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4Y 7~ 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 with SROs in mind for those positions. I have one 2 Salem SRO. Never got a Hope Creek one in my 3 organization. Like I say, it was hit and miss whether 4 they would send someone out to support the screening. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Why? 6 They just couldn't get the 7 SRO support. 8 MR. BARBER: Was that a valid claim to you 9 think? Wasn't there a period of time when Hope Creek 10 was kind of close to their minimum staffing from an 11 SRO standpoint or had very few extra SROs? There might 12 have been a couple but they were needed for other 13 critical plant coordination type things? 14 I *know that their numbers 15 fluctuated and that there were times when they were 16 probably tighter than others for something we felt was 17 as important as all the firms coming in from Hope 18 Creek and getting some support to help look at that 19 stuff and make sure it's in the right place with the 20 right priority. 21 I mean, that was their key because you 22 would have it on the other hand where you would build 23 schedules and they were not happy with when the work 24 was scheduled, where it was bucketed, whether they 25 would take matters into their own hands or push work NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS - 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 over to the 12-hour shift to get it done outside the 2 schedule. 3 That participation, you know. I can 4 understand that there's times where you call and say, 5 "I'm in a bind today. I can't send someone." Okay, 6 I got that, but it was more the rule from what I saw 7 that we would not have it than we would. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And when you were 9 looking for someone, what level of management were you 10 contacting? Were you at the ops management level or 11 you're at the plant management level there? 12 We were at the superintendent 13 level first and then up to the ops manager who at that 14 time, I think, was more or less the plant manager. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Any of the 16 on-shift OSs you would be looking at to free up an SRO 17 and then all the way up through the AOM on shift and 18 the OM and the OM was the plant manger at one point. 19 I think it was the same if it was at that 20 time. An

21 came 22 took over because Qcame over when we did the 23 second reorg in work management.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Later in 2000? 25 1Correct. NEAL R. GROSS . COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 2 ./ Up to that time it was, 3 -and was the oe t Hope 4 Creek. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So it was just 6 you weren't getting support. They just didn't have an 7 available SRO is what they were telling you.

Um-hum.

8 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How many -- I don't 10 know if you can estimate or if it's too hard and too 11 far back but, I mean, did this come up once? Did it 12 come up a couple times a week? How frequently is this 13 being raised? 14 7It was more~the routine. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It was a routine? 16 Not to have the guy there. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 18 MR. BARBER: Where would that resource 19 normally come from? Obviously it can't be from the 20 shift, right? I mean, you can't have somebody come 21 off shift. Was it out of the day shift operation 22 staff? 23 24 MR. BARBER: The normal -- 25 4 Um-hum. One of that day's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 extra guys. One of the op staff guys. Anybody. 2 MR. BARBER: And the workload was two to 3 three hours in the morning? 4 CWhat they tried to do it was 5 two to three hours for j) guys and the 6 engineering. They either went to splitting the 7 meeting saying, "Okay, we'll do the Hope Creek stuff

.8   first       or second and then the Salem," or vice versa to 9  minimize the impact of the SROs so you wouldn't have 10   to sit        there for the whole thing.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Free them up, yeah. 12 CWe'll do the Hope Creek stuff 13 and you can go back. We'll do the sound. 14 MR. BARBER: You mean, the actual during 15 the duration of the meetings when you assigned the 16 priorities and when you decided what you were going to 17 do with something?

                             **correct.

18 19 MR. BARBER: So that could take anywhere 20 from a half hour to an hour to an hour and a half? 21 Per station. 22 MR. BARBER: Okay. So, in fact, your 23 organization went out of their way to try to 24 accommodate the SROs to minimize their time away from 25 the site or away from their respective plant. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1Right. 2 MR. BARBER: Okay. 3 3 Even like from my perspective 4 when we had the Tl2 meetings and the TI6 meetings even 5 though we didn't have an SRO we requested one at least 6 to come to those meetings. At least so they could see 7 what we were putting into the weeks, what may be 8 excluded because of resources or whatever, to help us 9 in that decision making. 10 Something we thought was maybe a low 11 priority could get kicked out of a week because 12 maintenance resources not being available. We wanted 13 their buy-in and we didn't want to get all the way 14 down to T2 or T3 and find out, "Hey, put all the stuff 15 back in." Created a lot of havoc, to tell you the 16 truth, not having that up front. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You couldn't get 18 support for that either? 19 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you ever get a 21 reason for that other than just not available? Was 22 there anything more to it explained to you? 23 Basically it was the 24 availability of the ops resource. Do the best you 25 can. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that was coming 2 to you from where? From what level? 3 From my boss, 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That was% - 5 at the time. How long did that go on then at this 6 point? 7 .As NOW far as the Hope Creek side 8 about eight or 10 months into the new organizational 9 process. We made another change to move some work 10 over to here from a scheduling perspective. Then I 11 pretty much fell out with just the planning so then I 12 didn't need the ops SRO anymore. Whether the problem 13 resided over here or not I'm not sure. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it changed for you 15 because of your own personal? It wasn't a factor in 16 17 We restructured the 18 organization again to ge who was down here at 19 the time all the scheduling. Any of those problems 20 that went with not having an SRO would have stayed with MIFOM 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: - 23 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Which would be 25 what time frame now? Is this 2001 now? NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 4 Um-hum. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So eight to 10 months 3 after that second reorg in 2001 it shifted again. 4 j Right. We started massaging 5 the new organization and saying, "Okay. Let's put all 6 the scheduling here. Let's put all the planning here." 7 The screeners pretty much stayed the same. The 8 screeners originally had some planners to do short-9 term planning work. 10 High priority jobs come in they were 11 supposed to bang out the planning. That was not 12 always very effective either so we decided to move all 13 the planning into one house. Screening was just going 14 to look at the incoming work and ould have all 15 the scheduling. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What effect did that 17 have then in 2001? Did it work better? Did it work 18 -- how did it work in your view? 19 In my view nothing much 20 changed. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In terms of screening 22 and feedback and notifications that were piling up and 23 all that? 24 Correct. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And SRO review? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 j SROs did a separate review 2 for operability at the stations. I want to make sure 3 that we're clear. SROs were seeing all the stuff. As 4 far as prioritization, getting in the right work 5 weeks, those get done now or does it go out to the 6 long- range schedule, I don't know how that worked. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At that part in time 8 you weren't part of the process then? 9 Not then. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you don't know. 11 Mwould be the one to ask that then. 12 That is correct. I think at 13 one time they did have jover here in that 14 role. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What would the title 16 be for that? 17 I don't remember what the 18 title was to tell you the truth. I know*WJhad come 19 from Hope Creek, I believe, over to here for a short 20 period of time to work and do some of the work 21 management stuff. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So between the 23 second and the third reorgs then. 24 Um-hum. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So there's two NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 people I could ask what kind of SRO support they were 2 getting and how it was working and the planning and 3 the scheduling. In terms of raising the issues in the 4 notifications, it seems like there are plenty of 5 notifications that were having to be handled so the 6 concerns are getting noted and documented it would 7 seem to you, I imagine. 8 ?C* *Um-hum. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you see it on -- 10 do you see that across the board? I know to a certain 11 extent you may have many more industrial safety 12 concerns than you would a nuclear safety concern. But 13 in the category -- 14 (Whereupon, the end of Tape 1, Side A.) 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: My question was in 16 the notifications that were being written or the 17 concerns that you were seeing, were people raising 18 concerns of a nuclear safety nature? Would they do 19 that freely? SYes. I'm getting into stuff 21 like for a long time there, especially when I was back 22 in operations for that short duration after the 23 technical position, we had gone through a big period 24 of finding that we were not always in compliance with 25 procedures, our operating practices in compliance with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 tech specs for the licensing basis. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Time frame then is? 3 Is this 1990 -- 4 This is -- 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- when you went to 7 irRight at the end of that when 8 I was in ostly.** 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 10 W Yeah, time frame. 11 We started getting into a bunch of discovery issues. 12 I don't know if you are familiar with shutdown cooling 13 event we had. 14 MR. BARBER: I remember it. 15 Okay. I mean, we started 16 finding things like that but we weren't very 17 forthcoming at the time, if you recall, about putting 18 those issues out. I would say like a cleansing and 19 then we were going through and looking at design basis 20 and finding a number of issues. At that point there 21 was a lot of notifications going out about service 22 water temperatures-not being designed. 23 As a matter of fact, I saw one the other 24 day over at Salem where they stated that, "It looks 25 like we may not be in compliance with one of the tech NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 specs over there from a design basis." One of our 2 tech spec actions allows a condition that they just 3 reanalyzed that doesn't -- you know, so the tech specs 4 are not conservative so they wrote that one up. I 5 would say there is probably a gap in there of a couple 6 of years where you didn't really read that much of 7 that kind of stuff. You know what I'm saying? Safety 8 issues, safety concern with this. 9 MR. BARBER: What is the gap you are 10 referring to? iiJV9J 11 Like I say, it was pretty 12 feverish in the mid to late '90s. That could just be 13 the result of things getting cleaned up. I would say 14 in like the early 2000 to now time frame you don't 15 really see as much of that as you did in the past. 16 Okay? 17 MR. BARBER: Do you have any insight as to 18 why you think that is the case? 19 jJ This is just a feel that I 20 have. We've had a large turnover of people over the 21 years so people that were very familiar with design 22 basis, what's really in there and when you would be -- 23 I would say like a working knowledge of the SR and 24 tech specs and all that. I don't think we have as 25 good a basis for that as we did before, you know, NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS lI1 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 working knowledge. Unless something drives you they 2 have to takela look. I don't think we go there like 3 we used to years ago. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So are you saying 5 that it's possible that some things go unrecognized 6 because of that lack of familiarity or the experience 7 with the SRs and the tech specs and plant equipment? 8

No think so.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So the changeover in 10 the experienced people, what levels are you talking 11 about? What does that affect it mostly? 12 I think some of it is in 13 operations. Nothing against all the new SROs but you 14 bring a lot of people in from outside, other 15 organizations, and we replaced a lot of the people 16 that have previous experience and operating history 17 here. I don't think things click in their mind as to 18 what was a problem before, whether we've had problems 19 before. You know what I'm saying? 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yeah. 21 I'm not sure. I know when I 22 licensed knowing the SR and design basis was really a 23 critical point for the. shift people. I don't know 24 that they have that in their training right now as a 25 big as aspect as they used to. / _ NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For the SROs. Are 2 you aware of any instances where operability clause or 3 any assessments for the standards have been missed? 4 Off hand right at this moment 5 I can't tell you he has a specific case. I know there 6 are times when even to this day I'll look at some of 7 the operability screenings and I may have a question. 8 I'll call over and have somebody relook at a screen 9 because I think they may have left something out from 10 an SR tech spec standpoint. I mean, it's not like 11 it's a daily occurrence. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 13 I just get a little concerned 14 when you read things like I understand that's two 15 issues at Hope Creek right now that they are looking 16 at from a previous operability standpoint, one with 17 the chiller and one with north plant vent where it 18 looks like we may have gone in and did some work and 19 not applied the appropriate retest coming 20 out.**There's a question still whether or not the 21 equipment would have operated properly over a period 22 of time. Those are the kinds of things that I have a 23 little bit more of a concern for because some of our 24 programs for specifying retests and all aren't that 25 clear or that strong. GI" 1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. BARBER: Wasn't part of that -- I 2 mean, it's a combination of the knowledgeable 3 individual and the program together that helps decide 4 the retest. I mean, you can't possibly put down 5 everything in a procedure. You know, every nuisance 6 and what you need to do on a retest so you would have 7 a qualified person involved and it's a combination of 8 those factors that would help do that. There may be 9 some subtle requirements, maybe ASBI (phonetic) code 10 or some other requirements that person may not be

.1  knowledgeable            at.      We    need      to     put  that     in       but 12   something          about     a   system     interaction.           Something 13   really unique for very detailed and you count on the 14   individual to kind of fill                in the gap on that kind of 15   thing.                                        7 16                                      J     For example,         we looked at 17   this issue we had with the Hope Creek AC leak.                           One of 18  the things we discovered when we were doing that is we 19  had all        kinds of people go out and look at this valve 20  and this actuator saying the leakage was acceptable, 21  but we didn't even have conditions right.

22 There was an oil pressure there at the 23 time. Some of these individuals were out there 24 looking at the leak. Well, our testing requirement or 25 specification for going out to look at the leakage but NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 no oil pressure. You're not going to see much. You 2 know what I'm saying? 3 MR. BARBER: Right. 4 j So there was an opportunity 5 to prevent an occurrence or really understand the 6 issue, but with all the ýeople that touched, it didn't 7 dawn on anybody that we don't have conditions right to 8 be going and checking for this leak. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was the time 10 frame for that? 11 This was -- let's see. 12 MR. BARBER: That was like two or three 13 months ago. 14 Yeah. We determined that was 15 during the shutdown for the switch yard salting. 16 MR. BARBER: January. 17 .During the hurricane. 18 MR. BARBER: Oh, was it? 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: September then. 20 We found the leak. That was 21 September shutdown where we noticed the leakage around 22 the valve and said yeah, we'll be okay. Then we shut 23 down in October. 24 MR. BARBER: October. Okay. 25 To scram for the leak itself. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. BARBER: That was a CIV leak or A&C 2 leak? 3 93 Actuator, right. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So to correct 5 situations like that, in your mind what does that 6 take? Is that education? Is that an update or 7 procedures or is there more to it than that? 8 When we looked at this if you 9 cut -- maybe this is just my feeling. If you've got 10 seasoned people that have experience and understand 11 the system interactions and what it takes, then 12 procedures don't have to be as beefy. Okay? I think 13 right now we're into this predicament where you don't 14 have a lot of that experience and the procedures are 15 a little weak. That's not a good combination. 16 MR. BARBER: Is it possible that people 17 are making assumptions about the system, too? They 18 really don't know but they think there's pressure? I 19 mean, it would seem logical if you are going out to 20 look for a leak that you would have pressure on the 21 system that they assume is pressurized. 22 Maybe there's a requirement they do a 23 check. Maybe it should have been the work 24 instruction. Who knows where the gap is but they may 25 be operating under assumed knowledge. Again, that NEAL R.GROSS/j(7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 goes to experience but it could be a combination of 2 factors. 3 ~When I looked at the order 4 all it said on the order was check for leaks. 5 MR. BARBER: Oh. It didn't say pressurize 6 the system and check for leaks? 7 Correct. 8 MR. BARBER: Or verify system pressure? 9 If you read our procedure, 10 what it states is that when you write the repass you 11 are supposed to specify the conditions required to do 12 the task. That's not there. The ops guys know how to 13 do that. 14 Go up and talk to the ops guys and say, 15 "What do you need to have pressure?" "You need the HC 16 pump in service." "But is that all?" "Yeah, I think 17 so." "Well, do you need the turbine reset to get 18 pressure onto there?" "Oh, yeah. That's right. You 19 probably need a reset, too." Well, we were going how 20 there and had an HC pump running but the turbine is 21 not reset so -- 22 MR. BARBER: Okay. 23 You understand what I'm 24 saying? 25 MR. BARBER: Yeah. Right. NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that something 2 that you've gotten indications that management at 3 operations level and senior management has an 4 understanding that with seasoned people you don't have 5 these kinds of issues? You would have less beefy 6 procedures. Is that something that's discussed openly 7 or you think they have an awareness of? 8 -/ c I would think they have an 9 awareness of it but it's not discussed, not at my 10 level in meetings. I would be more than happy to 11 hear, "Hey, we think we've got a problem here. We 12 think we need some help," and advertise that to the 13 organization. "Don't rely on us. We don't have 14 everything we need right now." I'm relying on you 15 guys to have communication to say, "I need better 16 retest." 17 Something at the top to look at all this 18 and say where are our weaknesses and where do we need 19 some help instead of just letting the organization in 20 my mind sit out there and flounder and assuming 21 everybody has got that knowledge. Do you know what 22 I'm saying? 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. 24 *I 1/ don't see nothing trying to 25 pull it all together to say, "Look, guys. Here is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 really what the problem is. Here's where we think we 2 have weaknesses. We need your help. We need these 3 guys to step up. We need to get them some help. 4 Where are our gaps?" I don't hear a lot of that. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Why don't you think 6 that the plants have that seasoned experience? Why 7 don't people stay? 8 Well, to be honest with you, 9 some of us stay but for selfish reasons. I've got* 10 . -and a couple more years I can retire so I'm not 11 going to walk away from public service. A lot of 12 people put up with a lot of grief here, to tell you 13 the truth. 14 I understand the thing about reorganizing, 15 getting slimmer, trimmer, fighting machine. I'm all 16 for that but we have to have a plan to get there. 17 They want us to plan a work week and make sure you 18 plan for the DCP but we'll just reduce work force. 19 No kind of clue as to how we are going to 20 retailer the work, change the workload, modify what 21 we're doing. To me it's just like a big jungle right 22 now and everybody's out there saying, "Here's what I 23 think I should be doing," and plodding ahead. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Just not coordinated.

                            *W:             Not at all.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What other kind of 2 grief? I mean, that's one example of the kind of 3 things that you are dealing with. In a way it's 4 interesting the way you say you've been here fo*o 5 It's almost like you're justifying it. You're 6 saying it's selfish but other people have left because 7 of the grief that they get here. What are other 8 things that people have to put up with at your level? 9 The expectation for the work 10 hours. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Pretty lengthy? 12 They could be. I mean, years 13 ago down here everybody worked overtime. Everybody 14 worked overtime. I'm not talking a little. I'm 15 talking 70, 80 hours a week and they were getting paid 16 for it. I believe that people will stretch. "If

17. you're going to leave it out there, I'll take it."

18 tcame in and I understood exactly what he meant. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 20 (phonetic)? 21 Yeah. I wish he had never 22 left but apparently he had too many people say that. 23 icame in and said, "Here's the way it is, guys. We 24 can't afford to pay all this. We've got to figure out 25 how to get it done in less hours." NEAL R.GROSSf)J1 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 What " was trying to tell everybody, and 2 I believe this about 71 "You don't need to be here 3 all them hours. Get your work done more efficiently 4 in eight, ten, in nine, but I ain't going to pay you 5 to work all those hours. " But fwas okay if you got 6 the work done and go home every day after eight hours. 7 You know what I'm saying? 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Um-hum. 9 I don't know if that's okay 10 anymore. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it stretched from 12 you can go when your work is done to you need to be 13 seen around for 10 to 12 hours or so? 14 Or, you know, we'll cut back 15 and put more work on the people and your expectation 16 now and even if it's not your work get it done. It's 17 okay to work all those hours again. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Unpaid. 19 1j Unpaid. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. It's clear 21 that it has an affect on your personal life and it's 22 uncompensated. That's a negative environment. 23 fjJ Well, I told someone that I 24 was speaking to the other day, like I say, all the 25 time I've got with this company you break things down NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I c

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1 in today's work environment. You've got family, your 2 own personal needs, and then you've got work needs. 3 I'll tell you, even five years ago public 4 service was in the family pile. I felt that strongly 5 about this company and how they treated their people 6 that they were in the family bucket. Call me up at 7 2:00 in the morning. Just call me up and tell me you 8 need me here. 9 I don't even have to know what the issue 10 is. I don't even have to justify it in my mind. I 11 know if you ever call on me you need my help and 12 you'll respect that whether I was getting paid or not. 13 Are you following me? 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yeah. 15 Today I don't feel that way 16 about it at all. They will call you. They will tell 17 you to get your butt in here to do something but I 18 don't think they appreciate it at all. I think people 19 at least need to feel that. Okay? 20 The other thing I think -- you got me 21 going here. 22 MR. BARBER: This is good. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We're looking for 24 your experience. 25 I think the other issue was 1j NEAL R. GROSSA COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 trust. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Trust. Absolutely. When you can't 3 4 trust the people in charge, it doesn't make a 5 difference whether it's a safety issue or whether it's 6 a family issue, whether it's a compensation issue, 7 whether it's an "oh, by the way" issue. You're not 8 going to speak up. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What damaged that? 10 What damaged the trust? And to what levels are you 11 looking? 12 , ij I've got some personal 13 accounts but I'll leave them for now. Let me say 14 this. We go through this reorg and this is how I 15 feel. You take a gentleman like 16 (phonetic). He's been here for a while. If one 17 organization on this island functions well, it was 18 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was it chemistry? 20 Rad Pro. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Rad Pro. Sorry. 22 He is seen as one of the 23 industry best by INPO. I mean, you know what we've 24 gone through with INPO and Wayno over the years. They 25 consistently come in and give this guy high marks. NEAL R.GROSS ýI l, 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS D.C. WASHINGTON, AND TRANSCRIBERS1c 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 When I first started out on this island, Rad Pro was 2 one of the hardest things to work around. You go down 3 to that control point and there would be 50 RP techs. 4 You had to check in with every one. There 5 was 50 ways to stop every job. You go down to the Rad 6 Pro control point today, you go down there with a job 7 they look it over. If they find the problem they help 8 you. If you come out of the can saying, Geez, I 9 couldn't get this." "What do you need? Something set 10 up? Come on. We've got some guys." 11 As a matter of fact, the last Hope/Creek 12 forced outage when I wa ,we had 13 shutdown and had drywall leakage when we shut down. 14 Here it is day four and we're talking about starting 15 out and we still haven't identified the leak in the 16 drywall. What are we going to do, guys? I mean, 17 there's a puddle here. Okay. 18 Well, the puddle dried up now whatever was 19 dripping. Come on. I said all we need to do is get 20 the drawings. What could possibly be above the 21 puddle? We'll go take a look at it. The Rad Pro guy 22 that was on says to me, "I can go over and 23 look at the model. I've got it upstairs." 24 I said, "Just give me a call back. Let me 25 know what you find." He calls me back about 20 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 minutes later and says, "Hey, there's a chill water 2 line above that cooler." He says, "I'll go in with 3 one of my guys and see what we can find." 4 He calls me from the can 20 minutes later 5 and says, "Hey, we found the leak." Now, can you 6 imagine? We shut this plant down. It's half out for 7 four days. I talked to my ops and maintenance reps 8 and they had given up on looking for this leak. How 9 can we put Hope Creek back with unidentified leakage? 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that the plan? 11 Well, here it is day four and 12 everybody was content to say in my meeting with the 13 ops and maintenance rep, "What do you want us to do? 14 We can't find it." 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then you said 16 that the discussion was about start-up. 17 -hum. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was there concern 19 raised that you still had an unidentified leak? 20 -3 I raised it. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: To? 22 [ . To the team, ops, 23 maintenance, engineering, Rad Pro. That's when the 24 Rad Pro came in. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's when you got NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANS6RIBERS

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1 them in. 2 So we went in. He found it. 3 We sent maintenance in later on. They took some 4 insulation off and we found a weld on the chill water 5 line. I believe that's what was leaking. We had to 6 go in and cut out a sectionrand replace it. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Not to seem too naive 8 here but is it possible that ops and maintenance 9 didn't recognize what you recognized? Had it not been 10 brought to their attention in some way before going 11 through these four days? 12 -0 Ops knew about it botchy we 13 were planning on shutting down in May I think in 14 March. Either late February or March to go in and see 15 if we could find the leakage because there was a big 16 concern while we were operating that the leakage was 17 up to like .45 gallons a minute and still increasing 18 slightly and not stabilized so we were going to have 19 to go in the drywall sooner or later. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Back in that time 21 frame it could have been. 22 And then we shut down for 23 this other reason so now it's like let's go in and 24 find the leak. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How far apart was the NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS (1 II - 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 unrelated shutdown from when they became aware of the 2 leak? How far apart in time were they? 3 11co ~jJThis was a big concern during 4 the operation about this leakage. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 6 So when we shut, down and, 7 "Now you should go in and find it," four days later we 8 still haven't accounted for it with start-up the next 9 day and they were kind of like shrugging their 10 shoulders. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What shutdown was 12 this, though? Did you put a time limit? 13 This was the most recent one 14 in January. This was -- I'm trying to remember what 15 took us out. This was the MSID. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: January '04? 17 Yes. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So this is the 19 leftover chilled water line leak from March '03 or so? 20 **JI don't know. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did it go that long? 22 .J I don't know that it went 23 that long or if that is when they determined it may 24 have started. I know during December and January they 25 were very concerned about the amount of drywall NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 leakage. I think we were planning on coming out 2 sometime in February to take a look. 3 MR. BARBER: Wasn't there some suspicion 4 that it might have been a control rod? 5 Ci There was a suspicion it was 6 a control rod drive. I think some of it was probably 7 from that though. The fact that we had the puddle on 8 top of the cooler for the first three days and then on 9 the fourth day the puddle dried up so we're done. 10 That to me just doesn't send the right message about 11 figuring out what we had. 12 MR. BARBER: It's kind of analogous to 13 that situation you raised about the HC system having 14 the turbine reset. It's maybe that the plant 15 conditions were such that the system wasn't 16 pressurized the right way so the leak, in fact, 17 stopped because there was no pressure. What you had 28 was the leftover from the leak but as soon as you 19 start all the equipment up again and get it running, 20 it's going to come back. 21 I had asked that question. 22 "Do we have all the chill water loops in? Well, I 23 think that cooler's in service. Well, let's go 24 verify." I just don't see that. You understand what 25 I'm saying? It's like unless it's really crashing NEAL R. GROSSAl - COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 down around us, everything is copasetic. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That registered with 3 you, the message that you see being sent there as 4 willing to proceed with the unidentified leakage. 5 What about other fallout from that? Do you hear 6 concerns raised? Did others? What I'm asking is did 7 others take the same message away from that as you did 8 that you are aware of? Did you have discussions with 9 the operators, the people on your team? Did anybody 10 else say. "That's screwed up," you know? 11 About gong back with the 12 leak? 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yeah. The message 14 that you're taking out of that being not the way to 15 proceed, that there is this lack of rigor in what kind 16 of a safety message does that send that you are 17 willing to start-up with this unidentified still. is 18 that something that -- 19 - 1 To tell you the truth, we had 20 a discussion there in that small circle and I put that 21 challenge on the team members we had in the LCC that 22 we should not let those types of issues fester and 23 rot. That's what we're here for. But, to tell you 24 the truth, I don't have any desire to go challenge at 25 the upper levels as to why that's not happening there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 either. You understand what I'm saying? 2 When we get into these things like the 3 other issue that I was a little upset with during this 4 forced shutdown was this SRM. Delta SRM was inoperable 5 this whole time. We were considering it inoperable. 6 Here we are getting ready to start-up and get the word 7 back from Sorac (phonetic) that, "Okay, we're not 8 starting up with delta SRM until it's fixed." 9 Somebody is taking a stand. What do we 10 need to do to fix this? I think it became during the 11 course of the night apparent to everybody there is no 12 fix for this thing. This has been an intermittent 13 problem almost since the start-up days. All the 14 troubleshooting and everything we've done that the 15 best people could come up with, "You're not going to 16 fix this problem until you reroute that cable, 17 different location all the way from control room down 18 to containment." 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Well, just for the 20 record, you're rubbing your fingers together in the 21 symbol of money. 22 j Symbol of money. Correct. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it's going to be 24 an expensive fix. 25 1 It's going to be an expensive NEAL R.GROSSAK COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 7 ' 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 fix. That decision was made that night that we would 2 not start-up with the SRM inoperable. It needed to be 3 fixed. Next night we started up saying it was okay. 4 I glad we did the crod but all the information we had 5 for the crod was there before. Do you understand what 6 I'm saying? 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Same conditions. 8 Same condition. We didn't 9 fix anything. 10 MR. BARBER: So was the start-up done 11 assuming it was operable? Did the crod prove it was 12 operable or prove that it was inoperable? 13 j The crod stated that it was 14 operable and -- 15 MR. BARBER: Because you could start-up 16 with it inoperable, right? 17 Correct. But the crod stated 18 it was inoperable and what we addressed in the crod 19 was basically that we would get intermittent nuisance 20 alarms and that based on the frequency or the duration 21 of the nuisance alarms ops may have to bypass it 22 again, I think. It was supposed to be optional. 23 MR. BARBER: Was there ever an attempt to 24 try and correlate the alarms with some planned 25 activity like whether it be like a subpump start or NEAL R. GROSS / -y-7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.mm

1 something? If it's an EMI problem, which I think how 2 it's been characterized before, that there is 3 something you could correlate it to. 4 If there is an adjacent cable that's 5 inducing a spike in the DSRM cable, to try and 6 identify what system that's on based on what's 7 actually happened in the power plant to say, "When 8 this component starts or when we do this, it gives us 9 a spike." You could prove that it's not something 10 internal to the system itself, the circuitry. 1 .... As far as I know, no. I hate 12 to be a nay sayer but as far as I know right now 13 coming out of that, we solved that problem that night. 14 I don't know that there's anything out there today to 15 say leave the thing out of bypass. If it starts, here 16 is the plan. Here's how we are going to monitor for 17 this noise. 18 I don't know that anybody is doing 19 anything different with that today. To me it's like 20 if this is that big an issue for this island, and I 21 agree you want four good SRMs and we're going to be 22 going into a refueling outage this fall. It's 23 critical to have the SRMs, especially during fuel 24 moves. 25 What are we doing about it? I don't see NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that like as one of our top priority things to get 2 fixed and being communicated and making sure that 3 engineering, maintenance, and everybody is on board 4 with, "Here's when we're going to have the plan by. 5 "Here's when we're going to go out and start testing. 6 Here's when we expect to have the fix or the problem 7 identified." You know what I'm saying? I don't know 8 that anybody owns that right now. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For this incident 10 when you said that the SRM's were in operable and the 11 word came down that you weren't going to proceed in 12 that condition, the words you used were that somebody 13 took a stand. Do you know who that was? 14 I believe was the 15 chairman that night. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 17 ON.. Right. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then that 19 position changed in the day? 20 Well, the word that I 21 received was that it was supposed to be fixed. Later 22 on we did a crod to be able to start-up. We did leave 23 it in service, I believe, for the whole start-up and 24 it never acted up this time. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. But to go NEAL R. GROSS A(( 7c. COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 from -- I guess the realization was there is no fix. 2 The fix that there is is rather involved and costly on 3 that cable line. 4 'Well, I don't know that there 5 was anything they could have went out and fixed. Now 6 you're in a dilemma. You've taken, in my mind, a 7 stand to say, "We're going to fix this." There's no 8 closure on that in the short term. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Or you've gone 10 offline indefinitely while you reroute the cable, 11 right? 12 2* Uh-huh. Ur-hum. That'smy 13 point. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's the spot they 15 painted themselves into. 16 Yeah. 17 MR. BARBER: What if it's a problem with 18 the detector or something like that or there is some 19 connection problem? 20 We did a lot of trouble 21 shooting. I did not personally verify each step. I 22 believe they did the curve on the detector. The first 23 time it failed they planned that the text that did it 24 got the data wrong. They redid it and the detector 25 was good. I was a little frustrated because there was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 this one night when I came in that evening I thought 2 it was going to be the first start-up and on the board 3 was delta SRM we're going to go with an in-op. 4 It's a bad detector and we don't have one. 5 So when I mentioned that at the turnover meeting, one 6 of the ops guys came back to me and said -- he called 7 me later on and said, "You know -- it was.' 8 He said, "I heard you say we were going with the SRM 9 inoperable at your briefing." I said, "That's what I 10 got in turnover, It's a bad detector and we 11 don't have one." 12 He said, "Well, who in ops okayed that?" 13 I said, "I'm really not sure." He says, "I need to 14 get back to you on that because we don't want to start 15 up with an inoperable detector. If it's a detector, 16 we need to get one in there and get it fixed." Later 17 that night I chased it down and found out we had eight 18 detectors upstairs. 19 MR. BARBER: Eight? 20 Eight. 21 MR. BARBER: Okay. 22 So I made plans to go replace 23 the detector. Later on day shift after I left the 24 real story came out. "They tested the detector and 25 it's good. We don't know where the problem is." I NEAL R.GROSS // It I - COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 would think something that critical for the plant and 2 for the plant start-up sequence operability issue, 3 there should be a clear problem statement. Whose got 4 actions, here's what we're doing. But it came up, I 5 mean, like only minutes before start-up the issue of 6 whether or not that had to be operable or fixed. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We went into this 8 kind of round about and where we got on here was you 9 were talking about examples of grief that the seasoned 10 people do or don't put up with here. You offered 11 3as an example from Rad Pro as a solid 12 organization t&work with and his INPO findings back 13 that up. 14 S-JRight. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So can you finish 16 with that? 17 Yeah, I'm sorry. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, the direction is 19 fine. I just want to make sure that we finish each 20 item. 21 So when we're going through 22 this reorganization and that's where I was getting 23 everything, in my mind, and this is [ -personal 24 opinion, I thought .was a shoe-in for a position 25 in the organization. I was kind of hoping he would go NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I., 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 somewhere else to have that same influence with 2 another department. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What would have been 4 his capabilities? What were his options there? 5 Well -- 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is he operator 7 background? 8 .I don't think so. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 10 j7 But I'll tell you this much. 11 In my mind was a true leader. For an 12 organization that is dying for some leadership in some 13 areas,L *could be the guy because I don't think 14 # }eeds to know everything about the job. I think 15 knows how to motivate people, bring out the best 16 in people to get them to do their job. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I see. 18 U All of a sudden*W is out 19 He's got no position in the organization. That kind 20 of baffled me. Here you have a guy that is recognized 21 as the best in the industry. He has a top performing 22 organization. People were satisfied, I think, with 23 his -- you know, talk to any of his superintendents, 24 supervisors and they all loved - He's out and 25 I'm baffled. NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A C 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Then it dawns on me that the only reason 2 I think Iis out is because I used to sit in 3 meetings with and the management staff and* 4 would put the same challenges on the table to every 5 one of the other guys about standards, meeting 6 milestones, performance indicators. He would 7 challenge, you know, "What are we doing different?" 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: His peers or upward? 9 His peers. I think upward 10 sometimes because upwards may be in the room. In any 11 case, it was always peers and ould call it like 12 he saw it. Personally I think he got forced out 13 because they didn't want that challenge anymore. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have any 15 knowledge of any other reason why his abilities and 16 his experience wouldn't have been recognized and 17 retained? 18No 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Any other side 20 issues? Disciplinary? 21 Vx Not that I'm aware of. Not 22 with 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Any. other conflict 24 there? 25 0 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you are not aware 2 of any other reason other than what you observed was 3 he challenged people? 4 Yes. When we were getting 5 ready for the white-out visit, Q-was like the peer 6 leader and he would go around and he was making sure 7 that people were doing the right things or providing 8 feedback. There could have been something in there 9 where they think he didn't do a good job because of 10 the Wayno (phonetic) grade. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was the time 12 frame from Wayno to when he left? 13 When did we get the Wayno 14 grade? Actually, didn't end up leaving. He's 15 still here. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'm sorry. Okay. 17 Can you explain what happened with him? 18 That I don't know the 19 details. All I know is thatwas in a position 20 where he had no position and now he's reporting 21 directly to 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In what capacity? 23 I don't remember the exact 24 title on the org chart. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was there a period of NEAL R.GROSSAU i COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 time where he was actually unemployed here? Was he 2 out of a job and then brought back or did they find 3 something for him? 4 I don't think he ever left 5 the site. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He never did actually 7 terminate? 8 No, he did not actually 9 terminate but it was beyond the point because I had 10 talked to "one day about whether or not he was 11 going to be able to get a retirement. He said some of 12 that stuff was being discussed. He didn't know where 13 it was going to end up yet. 14 MR. BARBER: How about yourself? Have you 15 ever had any fears to that? You've probably been 16 involved with a lot of issues over the years. Even 17 though you may have the plant's best interest at 18 heart, it may come across as being heavy handed with 19 other groups or individuals. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Or challenging. 21 MR. BARBER: Yes, challenging. Have you 22 ever felt -- 23 That's what got me knocked 24 out of my position. 25 MR. BARBER: Out of which position? NEAL R. GROSS 44q COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 - w M! The 2 position. I was pushed out. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that seen as a 4 demotion for you? 5 iIt was a demotion, yes. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Pay and status and 7 number of employees? 8 They gave me a temporary -- 9 I had no employees after that. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How many did you have 11 prior? 12 3Somewhere between 25 to 30. 13 It didn't affect -- it's affecting pay in the long 14 term because they didn't lower my pay at the time but 15 based on the position I'm in now, I'm overpaid so I 16 don't get anything additional. 17 MR. BARBER: Do you have some sort of 18 sliding scale and because you are in a different 19 position or at the top, whereas before maybe you were 20 in the lower or middle part? 21 Right. You know, that's 22 okay. Trust me, that doesn't bother me. I'm still 23 well paid. That's not my concern. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Let me just ask you 25 a question abo Nposition. I don't think NEAL R.GROSSA r 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you knev the title but he directly reports toA 2 01on site. Duties. What do they have 3 him doinLg? 4 *.jJ I can't say specifically. I 5 know he' s probably doing some work like maybe with the 6 performa nce indicators or something like that, I 7 think. I haven't talked to jsince he's been in 8 that new role. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is this a position 10 that is seen -- from your perspective, is this 11 something that is recognized on site as a lateral 12 move, a demotion or promotion? 13 To me it looks like a 14 fill-in. Something happens and -- 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: There's a fourth 16 category, a fill- in. You have to define that for me, 17 please. 18 When I remember the original 19 org charts that we had for the reorganization, I don't 20 believe -- I don't recall seeing that position that

    -i-             in     there         being     there       like      some     type 21                                                                                             of 22                                                   or whatever.

23 MR. BARBER: If you had to classify one of 24 those three categories that Eileen mentioned, 25 promotion, lateral, or demotion, what would you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 classify it as from a standpoint of hierarchy? 2 I would say from a pay 3 perspective I would say it's lateral. But from 4 running an organization and having influence over 50, 5 60 people to having maybe no directs, to me that's a 6 demotion. That's my opinion. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's a factor that 8 goes into the status of a particular position is 9 number of direct reports. I understand that can be a 10 factor in looking at the position. Let me 11 understand this then. When the organization before 12 where he was, it would be for Rad Pro? 13 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Manager level. Okay. 15 What does his food chain look like at that point? 16 What was that? 17 J* At that time I believe he 18 reported to th 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: ' 20 At that point it would have been (phonetic) 21 so this is the fall of 2003? SNo, this i*aw 22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

                          ~Um-                   hum.

24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So this change NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 4/(-7 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 occurred for him early to mid last year? 2 Part of the reorg. He was in 3 the first -- 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: First part of the 5 reorg. 6 0 The first level that went 7 through the reorganization. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 9 .

started actually on 10 site a little bit after the reorg was complete. They 11 may have namedW earlier but I think he didn't get 12 here until it was done.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Didn't get there 14 until later. How about for you? AsMO 15 what was your reporting chain there? What did it look 16 like? 17 I reported to 18 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At that point* 20 : Mould have been -- 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And 23 then to 9**.** What does it look like now? 24 y reporting? 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yeah. NEAL R. GROSSA 1?' COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 I report toj 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:' Who is that? 3 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 5 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 7 -2 And he reports to 8 9reports t 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:til 10 right now? 11 MR. BARBER: 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He reports t-13 11 .14 . .J

                       .         OS.                  U.        Correct.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you have two -- I 16 don't know what level these, are but they added two 17 layers in there for your reporting chain then, 18 19 Iused tobeam= - which 20 would have 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. So now two 22 steps. 23 -@No' *1Correct. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Two steps below that 25 one. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1Um-hum. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You indicated that's 3 not a concern for you. Where you've landed you're 4 indicating that's not a concern for you.

5. Well, I'll be perfectly 6 honest with you. Let's look at the big picture. With 7 my age and service with public service, at 55 I can 8 retire with a full pension. If I were to leave, I 9 couldn't collect. If I was to leave at that time, I 10 wouldn't get a pension until 65 with no benefits.

11 Right now if I left, I couldn't collect until age 60. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So the move that you 13 see here is that significant enough to consider you 14 wanting to leave the organization? 15 I think the way it was 16 handled and done awhile ago, if it wasn't for -- don't 17 forget I've got to think of 18 19 4 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'm not -- 21 m saying 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'm not questioning 23 your decision making on it or why you would stay. 24 What I'm looking for more is how you viewed it. How 25 it was handled. How you viewed it and what NEAL R.GROSSAK COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1 b" 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 significance level that is for you. Where I'm going 2 with this is you probably have an understanding. You 3 have had some experience with the Office of 4 Investigations before. 5 In terms of issues that allege 6 discrimination for having raised concerns of a 7 regulatory nature, we investigate that. I'm pretty 8 sure, at least I'll confirm now, that you are aware of 9 that. What you are indicating was that you have 10 something in common here witi Ain that you 11 are someone who challenges the organization and you 12 raise issues. 13 What I won't do is put words in your mouth 14 that this is a claim that this happened to you as a 15 result of you pushing concerns. That's not where I 16 am. I want you to understand that. For the record we 17 need to make that straight. 18 wa That is correct. I'm not 19 making that - I do not believe what was done to me 20 was for other than safety issues. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. That's what I 22 wanted to clarify for the record. This is about to 23 spin out on me and when it does I lose whatever is at 24 the tail end of it. Why don't I end the tape right 25 now. It's 11:45 approximately. It looks like a lunch NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4( 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234.4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 break time. That's what we'll do. 11:45 and we'll go 2 off the record. 3 (Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m. off the record 4 for lunch to reconvene at 1:11 p.m.) NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-0-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 1:11 p.m. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This is a 3 continuation of the interview wit nd the 4 time is now approximately 1:11 p.m. Where we left off 5 was during our discussion it was pretty much 6 management handling of individuals that you saw as 7 being in positions that challenged in a good way 8 management to do things to certain standards. 9 was an example of that. 10 Yourself, to a certain extent, you were put in that ii category, too. What I wanted to know was did you see 12 that happen with other individuals who stand out in 13 that way? 14 I think two come to mind. A i5 gentleman by the name of( 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What position had he 17 been in? 18 7 He was the ..... 19 INC electrical type work. He 20 came to the hortly after got here. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Which would be 24 what year then fo I know he left around 25 '97/'98, right? '98? NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Yes. I would backtrack 2 probably three years before that around '95, '96 time 3 frame. * @ad previous SRO experience and then he 4 worked in maintenance INC 12 hour shift for awhile. 5 He got up to a level of manager. Cw was a true 6 party line guy because I sat in staff meetings with 7 Jas a peer. ýwas known as very positive. 8 He was trying to move the organization 9 forward with issues like productivity and accepting 10 work and getting work done. That wasCAng real goal 11 to help improve plant material condition through his 12 workers and trying to get them to do more. He was 13 always encouraged and seen as one of the people that 14 was doing what the upper echelon wanted. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In this time frame 16 undeor are you talking about later? 17 Even after. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Throughout. 19 *Throughout. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. He was 21 replaced rather rapidly and taken out of that position 22 after some issues came up with the union related to 23 some safety of a particular job. There may have been 24 some safety issues with that job but my point is 25 had probably performed -- I would say you would have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to look at his overall performance over a long period 2 of time. 3 He was seen as a mover trying to move the 4 organization forward. Of course, that always leads to 5 some push back by some other workers. Eventually he 6 just got replaced. He got pushed off to the side and 7 then the parting line was we're going to let 1come 8 off of that duty for awhile so he can get finished up 9 on his degree and then find another place in the 10 organization and you don't have to bring him back. 11 He's on the wassignment right now. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He's on the? 13 "r #0 assignment.** 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, he's at , 15 He's actually down in Atlanta? 16 C Down inAtlanta. 17 MR. BARBER: Do you know how long ago that 18 was the-he was given that assignment? 19 This was following the reorg. 20 There were several individuals that were in place 21 during the reorganization, 22 I mgoing slow with the names. J. I'm 23 sorry. The ... / There was another 24 gentleman that was slated to go down. I'm having 25 problems with the names right now. Since one has left NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and thenf is still going down there is 2 my understanding. I talked with him not too long ago. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who since left? 4 11100* replacement, the 5 U_... .. I can't think of his name off 6 hand. He was here a short while. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Came and went 8 already. 9 *

Us-hum.

10 MR. BARBER: So is your point with this is 11 that he has kind of been pushed to the side. At 12 least, it appears as if he's been kind of pushed aside 13 because he was a mover and a shaker and maybe he had 14 stepped on some toes or what have you? 15 He stepped on some toes so 16 here he was basically supported by some of the VPs in 17 his efforts and they told him, "Yeah, keep going. 18 You're doing the right thing." I was in meetings 19 where, "Doing what we want you to do. Keep the 20 pressure on. Hold them accountable. Bingo, you're 21 out." You understand? 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did it look like at 23 some point whatever he was doing crossed the line and 24 he wasn't useful anymore, or is he seen as some sort 25 of -- caught up in this thing as some sort of, okay, NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS C-- 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234.4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 if it'1 that you object to in terms of the union 2 management relations, then it would be seen as a move 3 to appease them and in some way to movez out 4 would that gain ground then with senior management 5 with the union? I mean, did he get caught up in -- 6 you know, he does what they want and then he's not 7 liked and then they get rid of him to sort of fixed 8 things? 9 9 That's pretty much what I 10 think happened. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So he's right in the 12 middle of everything then. He's just in a bad spot. 13 Right. My point is here you 14 are trying to forward the organization and do what 15 upper management believes is the right thing to do. 16 Then when they are confronted with a hard situation 17 themselves on where to make the decision, they just 18 cut him loose. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He's the fall guy. 20 He's the fall guy. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You said that came 22 down to a safety issue there was some heartache over. 23 What was that safety issue? 24 I don't know the exact 25 specific of the issue but it had something to do with NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the rebuild of a particular type of actuator, valve 2 actuator that he wanted to have the craft guys do. It 3 was determined later on that we might not have had the 4 right expertise here. Okay? But to me that's not the 5 kind of issue that would break someone's back. We 6 should have worked through that and helped the guy. 7 Instead we just cut him loose. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What happens after 9 that? I mean, in the position that he was in, in this 10 I bm . . "'level, what kind of 11 relationship with the union does his replacement have? 12 He's the one that came and went so what was the 13 direction? If you were seeing any, what was the 14 direction for him in terms of handling the union? 15 I'll just put it in general. What was he supposed to 16 be doing? Anything different? 17 Well, you know, it's a 18 change. Basically whenever you start with a group 19 you've got some amount of time where it's like a 20 freebie. They will give you a shot. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The honeymoon period. 22 Right. The time frame was so 23 short and then the reorged again. SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He never got through 24 25 his honeymoon period, whoever that was. NEAL R.GROSS li v COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Right. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you remember that 3 name? Do you recall? 4 I'm trying to think of the 5 name. If it comes to me, I'll give it to you. 6 MR. BARBER: Do you know who might be 7 involved or been a decision maker in the decision to 8 move out of the position? I mean, who did he 9 report to directly? 10 11 MR. BARBER: He directly reported t 12 At the time, yeah. 13 MR. BARBER: What was -- 14 11ý- Oh, I'm sorry, no. 15 (phonetic). 16 MR. BARBER: Okay. 17 Hewas 18 -Jat the time. 19 MR. BARBER: in turn reported towk7 20 Correct. 21 MR. BARBER: Okay. So likely it would 22 have been betwee"0000 where the decision was 23 made. Right?

                                   *.*       Correct.

24 25 MR. BARBER: Would it also involve NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1~ 1 feedback from others like operations or engineering? 2 Would there be directors or managers that would 3 feedback to his ability to work in the organization 4 that could have influenced his position? 5 That's a possibility because 6 I think at the time was when they even moved 7 operations unde so there could have been more of 8 a consensus type thing. 9 MR. BARBER: Okay. 10 ,I would guess. 11 MR. BARBER: Okay. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What happened to m l 13 in the reorg? 14 9He did not have a position. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So he was displaced 16 at the same time when -- 17 4.He was displaced. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: -- was 19 too? 20 No, came first. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: first and then _____________I 22 23 .tas a result 24 of the reorganization. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then late zo 7 NEAL R. GROSS7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 2 Correct. /97 technically 3 went first. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 5 Then there was a certain 6 number of positions left that the remaining directors 7 and all were bidding on. That's where I would say 8 QU was unsuccessful. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Now, where is 10 he? 11 iHe left the company. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Do you know 13 what he's doing now? 14 I think he went back to a 15 My understanding was he was going back 16 to his previous employer so I guess wherever he left 17 he left on fairly good relations and was able to go 18 back. One interesting thing about though. I 19 talked to you about the trust issue earlier. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. 21 ~last day he was going 22 around and I had been up in one of the office areas 23 there and he stopped in to see me. I never directly 24 worked for him but I interfaced with him a few times. 25 We had a farewell chat, you know, for about 10 NEAL R. GROSS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 minutes. 2 The interesting thing he said to me, he 3 looked me square in the eye and he said, "Watch who 4 you trust around here." It looked like he wanted to 5 give me a name and I said, 7.

                                                     -lease,     no names.

6 I think I know who you're talking about. Let's leave 7 it at that but I appreciate you giving me that advice. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was he talking 9 about? 10 11oM In my estimation I think 11 because him and worked closely 12 together. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Director level, 14 right? 15 .. Director level. I think a 16 lot of the decisions that were made during 17 reorgs were apparently run by was aware 18 of what was going before it happened. He never did 19 give me the name but by that time E was already 20 gone. 21 MR. BARBER: Who was actually making the 22 decisions on the reorg? It sounded like if everybody 23 was "bidding for their positions" there had to be a 24 decision as to who was going to get them. Who were 25 the decision makers? NEAL R. GROSSM COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 That's what I thought was odd 2 because at our levels, at the manager levels and 3 director levels, the decision makers were going to be 4 (phonetic) and -- I'm sorry. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: * (phonetic) . 6 ari 7 even though he was displaced. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So they left it at 9 that level then? 10 W Right 11 MR. BARBER: What about. I i(phonetic)? 12 You sai.--was tied in but he wasn't here yet. 13 as announced that he 14 was coming but he was not here yet, I don't believe, 15 or going to be here before the reorg was complete. 16 MR. BARBER: Okay. 17 So then as you progressed 18 down, more and more people got into the decision 19 making process of who was going to fill the positions. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you cross each 21 level? 22 6'M* 1 Correct. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You know, whoever was 24 selected would be involved in the next level. 25 ý orrect. NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4((7-1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. o 234-4433 (202)

   .                         WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701              www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When did -- I don't 2 know if I know for sure exactly when was the reorg 3 considered started? I know that there were a lot of 4 positions in the September time frame that were 5 announced as no longer a position here but I think 6 there were indications that it was going on throughout 7 the year at some point but was there a start point for 8 this for the reorg? 7G 9 1 For the official reorg, yes, 10 there was an official start. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When was that? 12 1I think that was like the 13 September time frame, late August, early September 14 because we were supposed to have the new organization 15 announced, I think, by, if I recall the dates 16 correctly, like mid September. 17 Then they pushed that back a week or two 18 because of some delays they ran into during the actual 19 reorganization. But it was very structured way to get 20 through it and this time frame and be done with it so 21 before we hit the outage in October everybody would be 22 in their new.positions. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So at that 24 point you would understand what positions there were 25 to bid on and then you go through it. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgros.com

1 owl It went in stages. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Stages. Okay. 3 *. . So they did the VP. The 4 first tier was like the VPs, managers, directors, that 5 level. The next level was superintendents, 6 supervisors, that classification. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 8 1 And then the rest was 9 individual contributors, the rest of the associates. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Anything else 11 to add to anything that we've discussed in terms of 12 its effect on the work environment and the handling of 13 the reorg or even trust issues? You kind of went 14 through the trust issues earlier. 15 MR. BARBER: You also mentioned there was 16 a second person, too? 17 j Correct. The other one I 18 think back to and this happened earlier on. It had 19 nothing to do with the reorg. It was a gentleman by 20 the name of (phonetic). He was a 21 and then he moved over to 22 *at that level. 23 I do not exactly know what happened. You 24 hear all kinds of stories through the grapevine but I 25 hear that he challenged the leadership on an issue in NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A (I 7cý 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 a meeting. I don't think it was so much a safety 2 issue but a strategic issue about where we were going 3 with some systems or something. Shortly thereafter he 4 was bumped down to basically an engineer level so he 5 went from manager down two steps. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It doesn't sound like 7 you have too many particulars on that. 8 No, I really don't. I don't 9 want to speculate too much but -- 10 MR. BARBER: Is he still employed here? 11 Yes, he is. 12 MR. BARBER: Okay. But he's now 13 considered an 14 He's at an 15 You hear rumors but I hear he may be in line for one 16 of these project managers for the service water, circ 17 water project over at Salem. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was the time 19 frame for him? 20 I would say that was about 21 two year'ago. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So he's not a 23 reorg issue. He was brought well prior to that then? 24 Correct. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So maybe -- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 .. From these types of things 2 that I have seen, you can see with an organization or 3 people in the organization that people were speaking 4 up and holding their ground trying to challenge 5 issues. It seems like people got cut off at the knees 6 for not maybe fully telling the company a line every 7 minute of every day. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It could be 9 interpreted that way. 10 j It could be interpreted that 11 way. 12 MR. BARBER: Do you know who the managers 13 were that were involved at that meeting, who the ones 14 were that were making the decision about something 15 that he thought was inappropriate? 16 No, I do not. I was not at 17 the meeting myself. I forget who gave me the feedback 18 who was at the meeting. I can't remember the 19 individual to this day who had given me that. 20 MR. BARBER: Okay. 21 . But I did talk to 22 personally because we were in the same boat there for 23 a while, you know. 24 MR. BARBER: Yeah, I was thinking that, 25 too. 25 too. NEAL R. GROSS /I COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Well, you just learn to keep 2 your mouth shut if you get another opportunity, 3 another chance. 4 MR. BARBER: Do you feel that way today? 5 To some extent, yeah. I've 6 got to be honest with you to some extent. If it's an 7 issue about finance or whether we could do something 8 cheaper, you know. Don't get me wrong. I will say 9 what needs to be said. I may say it one time. If I'm 10 told no, that's not an issue, then I may not go back 11 a second or third time. I'll be honest with you. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You'll raise it but 13 you won't push it. A - 14 Probably not. Don't is misunderstand me. I would say 80 percent of what 16 comes up in my day-to-day work if there was a safety 17 issue, I would not hesitate to keep pushing. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But in terms of 19 business decisions and the better way to do something 20 or to tackle something or some organizational change, 21 it's not something that you're going to be willing to 22 stick your neck out there for. 23 That is correct. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you had to do 25 that with a safety concern? Have you been in a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 position recently where you've had to raise a concern? 2 No, I don't think so. I 3 don't think there's anything I've seen that's been a

.4   real       safety   concern      that     I     think      we   were      doing 5  something wrong.

6 MR. BARBER: How about the timing? If you 7 look back at the timing of your change from being a 8 manager to more of an individual contributor, was 9 there something that happened right before then or 10 within six months prior that you felt like "Oh, gee," 11 and kind of in your own mind said, "Yeah, I pushed 12 this too much," or "I think this is what caused the 13 change?"

J Yeah.

14 15 MR. BARBER: Was it the chiller leak or 16 was it something else? 17 j7 No. I'll tell you, I didn't 18 make a friend with one of our oversight people. 19 You've heard of PMO down here, right? 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Can you explain that 21 for me? 22 59 P0 is the preventive 23 maintenance optimization. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 25 When we came out of-- we NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 talked in '99 that we went over to SAP. A decision at 2 that point had been made that we would only bring over 3 from MMIS a certain number of preventive maintenance 4 orders that existed at the time, basically all our 5 commitment items and EQ program. 6 Unless someone specifically said they 7 would carry something over, they were going to rely on 8 this new preventive maintenance program to go in 9 effect. That maintenance program had not been planned 10 to that point. Over the years they just didn't have 11 enough planners. We didn't have enough planners to do 12 all that work plus the corrective maintenance plus 13 fixing up old orders. There was a real debate on how 14 to get this work done. 15 There was also a lot of work in the PMO 16 database that was of really low value. We were also 17 deferring a lot of PMs over the week because 18 maintenance didn't have resources to do them all. We 19 wanted to take a more structured approach to planning 20 the PMO. We wanted to go back through rescreening and 21 then plan what needed to be done. 22 There was people that believed we should 23 plan it all no matter what the cost. Even if it was 24 $6 million next year just get it done. Well, I'm 25 caught between the oing and my leader saying, "We NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 don't have the money. We need to do this 2 strategically." 3 I've got the NRB representative saying, 4 "You're not applying the right resources to this." To 5 tell you the truth, I'm not going to rat my bosses 6 out, right? I'm part of that decision trend and I 7 kind of agree with them so I'm taking that stand that 8 we need to do this more strategically. He got real 9 upset about that and I think that was part of what got 10 me out of there was he went to them and said, "This 11 guy is not going to make it with this strategy." 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You're talking about 13 the NRB member? 14 *j NRB member. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who is that? 16 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Theo that you were, 18 for lack of a better word, protecting or you said 19 weren't ratting out? 20 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: at that 22 point. 23 24 because we all agreed that we didn't have the money to 25 go out and do this. COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it was going to be 2 handled strategically with lesser resources. 3 *Strategically. We'll plan it 4 as we go along and as maintenance has people to do it, 5 we'll make sure we get it planned rather than planning 6 five, 10 years ahead. You know what I'm saying? 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 8 6We would bite the bullet, 9 take a little bit of the cow each year. To tell you 10 the truth, I honestly expected support on that when it 11 came at the higher level of discussions from NRB and 12 plant management to say, "No, we're supporting on 13 this." I don't think that's the straw that broke my 14 back. I kept the company in line. 15 MR. BARBER: What was the time frame on 16 that? 17 That was 2002. 18 MR. BARBER: So you were reporting to 19 or was it through, you said? 20 21 MR. BARBER: To Do you have any 22 ideas why that fell out the way it did or why that 23 played out the way it did? 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you. have 25 discussions wit Nbougoing NEAL R. GROSS'l! COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to them? 2 5J No, I did not. At that point 3 after I got the fellow that was out, to tell you the 4 truth, I didn't at the time feel like rehashing 5 because I was told, "It was a rotational move. People 6 had been in the positions a long time and it was time 7 to bring some new blood in. They were bringing in 8 somebody from the outside. We are going to rotate 9 people around. No issues with the work you've been 10 doing. As a matter of fact, you've done some great 11 things while you've been here." Then why am I out? 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In looking around you 13 after you went through that, did you see other 14 positions that were affected the same way yours were? 15 People rotated in and out of positions along the lines 16 of what they are explaining to you in such a way that 17 it affected someone like you in a two position drop? 18 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Just him? 20 /3 Well, like I said,LT 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 23 - -(phonetic) may 24 have been. He was the t 25 Salem. Right before that Wayno visit that year about NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A e6_ 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 a month before they pulled him out and replaced him. SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Z M. 2

Um-hum.

3 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was his 5 position? 6 mu~rn~ 7 Salem. 8 MR. BARBER: He's now the 9 10 After the reorg. He had 11 spent a little time off. 12 MR. BARBER: It sounds like it. ,13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So there's a number 14 of people that were affected similarly to your 15 position? 16 Y~es. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But this isn't 18 something then, this issue where you're kind of 19 watching their back on the strategic planning for 20 handling the PMO issue and when they get feedback on 21 the strategic handling of that, which is negative, 22 you're not supportive from the other end even though 23 that was their position in the first place. 24 As a matter of fact, I 25 prepared my presentation and there was some thing even NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS AV/f C-1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 in there that Jcommented on and he actually 2 worked on the presentation with me so it was a 3 collaboration, "Here's what we're going to tellsm' 4 I told 4that. asn't happy and they left me 5 hanging right in the meeting. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, during the 7 meeting? 8 IMM Oh, yeah. One of the other 9 issues

had was he thought we needed a third 10 supervisor in planning.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 12 I thought we needed a third 13 supervisor. I can never get the record proved. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When they left it 15 hanging during the meeting what kind of things were 16 said? 17 ~asked me specifically, 18 "Do you have the third supervisor yet?" I said, "No." 19 He said, "That's it. I'm done with you." He went on 20 to the next guy. -ho were sitting there at the table, 7 knowing I wasn't going to 21 22 get the wreck because they did not want to approve a 23 third supervisor, said nothing. About a month after 24 that meeting is when I was moved. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, maybe I have a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)U 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 time discrepancy. I thought that was/00<time frame 2 when he went to -- was this a later meeting involving 3 4 We just have quarterly 5 meetings with 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I thought this stuff 7 came out where he was displeased with what he was 8 seeing in and you were moved in /. Do I have 9 time frames wrong? 10 Yeah. I was moved in 11 fflW-)Iworked for j7i I'm sorry, 12 yeah. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. You know what? 14 I'm going to the last reorg from the fall of 2003. 15 :1 No, that was -- yeah. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So this 17 affected your -- 18 I was moved i.. 4M _as 19 a result of this issue to a temporary assignment. 20 Then during the reorg I got a permanent assignment in 21 the 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: As the 23 24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Where you sit now, NEAL R. GROSS 70 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 right? 2 Where I sit now. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. This is when 4 you went to the projects group. 5 Um-hum. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you were 7 overseeing the contractor work and did a lot of 8 changes and all that? 9

Correct.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. I was just a 11 little confused on when that move was that you were 12 referring to. So they took you out from 13 Did we say who replaced you there? 14 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: at that 16 point. Okay. 17 There was a number of 18 individuals that I cite. But my point in all this is 19 when the organization sees this kind of stuff 20 happening, you're good and you're golden one day and 21 the next day you are bounced out. People know me. 22 They know what I stand for and everything, right? So 23 they say, "Gee, look at him. He opened his mouth and 24 got chopped off at the knees." 25 You start getting an atmosphere where you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A6 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 start tempering what you say. You're right. I mean, 2 I don't think it gets to the point for me where I 3 would not bring up a safety issue. I definitely 4 would. 5 MR. BARBER: Some of the ability to raise 6 a safety concern and be persuasive is also established 7 by the work environment. 7C 8 7) Correct. 9 MR. BARBER: I mean, that is one of the 10 reasons why we're here, safety conscious work 11 environment. It's not only would the individual do 12 that but does the work environment provide the 13 framework, the willingness, you know, to demonstrate 14 a willingness to listen to safety issues without 15 punitive action, without reprisal. 16 What you are describing is examples where 17 individuals like yourself have raised issues and there 18 has been consequence. Maybe some of the things are 19 borderline as far as whether they are actually safety 20 issues or business issues or whatever. Maybe 21 depending on who you ask you might get a difference of 22 opinion. But it does send a message to the 23 organization, as you point out, that people know who 24 you are. They know what you stand for. 25 You raise an issue and then they see what NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 happens to you. You get bumped down two levels. For 2 us to look at the circumstance we wouldn't necessarily 3 find fault with you as an individual if you were less 4 willing to raise the issue. It's more of an 5 organizational framework type problem. 6 17T Correct. My concern was 7 other people may not be as strong-willed as me and be 8 willing to speak up. You're right. It sets up an 9 atmosphere where people think twice before they even 10 say something and shouldn't be here. You see 11 something, you're concerned about something. Even if 12 you're not 100 percent positive you should be able to 13 throw that out on the table without fear. 14 MR. BARBER: Did you have any thoughts as 15 to why[ didn't support you during the NRB 16 meeting? Was there any discussion either after the 17 meeting like, "Hey, why didn't..." 18 None. I'll tell you, I was 19 angry. I was very angry and I did leav a 20 aggressive voicemail that night about not being 21 supported. I told himi "Don't leave me hanging out in 22 that meeting like that. I thought it was very 23 unprofessional. 24 MR. BARBER: Did he ever respond to that? 25 Mo. Well, he responded to me NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 later on telling me that he thought I was stressed 2 out. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Because you left that 4 message or for other reasons? 5 1Because I left that message. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Just based on that? 7 Right. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then you said it 9 was about a month later or so that you switched your 10 position? 11 In that meeting when we he 12 told me I was stressed out, I said, "Well, 2tif 13 I'm stressed out for any reason, in my mind it's due 14 to a lack of leadership on your part. You've got 15 three managers in the organization. 16 We've had a total of, if any, three 17 meetings in the last year and a half to discuss 18 issues, get alignment, get alignment with the other 19 organizations on rules, responsibilities. There's 20 issues we can't resolve without your help and you're 21 never there. If you're telling me you think I'm 22 stressed at some point, yeah. Go talk to my two 23 peers." 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who were your peers 25 at that point? COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

11 2 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 4 Qas since left. He went 5 back to, I think, one of th was 6 living in Ohio 'driving back and forth every week to 7 here. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, wow. Okay. And 9 was displaced, too. Right? 10 He's on the lassignment 11 now. It's even like that then, right? The 12 assignment. I can understand the corporation or the 13 department why they are there. It will never be clear 14 to everyone but the party line right now is we're 15 sending these guys.to 16 They are going to spend a year or two down 17 there. They are going to learn some additional, blah, 18 blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda. They are coming 19 back. They will be back in other key positions in the 20 organization. Um. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You look a little 22 skeptical about that. 23 Well, of course I'm skeptical 24 about that because as you know with this issue going 25 on now especially, people are saying, "This guy was a NEAL R. GROSS it -* COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 problem. That's why they got rid of him." "Well, we 2 didn't get rid of him. You say he's coming back." 3 "Well, we don't really mean he's coming back. This 4 was just a nice way of..." "What are you telling them 5 then? You're lying to me? You're lying to me about 6 these assignments that you put these guys on? There's 7 a couple of those guys I would love to see come back. 8 So what's the story?" 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you lying to me 10 then or are you lying to me now?

                            ~Yeah 11 12                      SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:               You're referring to 13   who now?

14 Right now s down there. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 16 I wish 17 I could remember the chemistry man's name. Real nice 18 guy. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'll be able to pull 20 out a list for. you here in a minute. 21 I'm sorry. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But the former - 23 b down there, too? 24

                          *'-* .**           Urn-hum.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But who from there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) I W234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 would you like to see come back? 2 II think

and myself 3 deserves a shot at coming back. I thin_. does.

4 I think he could fit in the organization somewhere. 5 These guys have a lot of knowledge and talent. You 6 know what I'm saying? Maybe they were in the wrong 7 role before but that's no reason to say they have 8 nothing to give back. 9 MR. BARBER: What about Do 10 you think he should come back? 11 jj.j I'll tell you what. Let me 12 put it to you this way. I reported directly -- well, 13 never directly to but I was about the only one 14 that went to his staff meeting every day from work 15 management. There was a lot of one-on-one 16 interaction, expectations. To tell you the truth, I 17 tried to do and I did what the man asked me to do.** 18 After that incident the relationship 19 changed overnight. To tell you the truth, for me once 20 trust is gone with an individual I don't want to work 21 with that individual anymore. He could come back in 22 some other capacity, some other group. I would not 23 have to work in that condition again. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Based on your lack of 25 trust. NEAL R. GROSS10 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 ] Absolutely. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So the relationship, 3 you're saying, changed from your direction toward him 4 because of not supporting when you were left to hang 5 out there. 6 You know, I want people to be 7 honest with me like I was honest with my people. 8 "Here is the job. Here is what we need you to do." 9 I had two supervisors that after like two months they 10 came back and said, "You know, we don't think we're 11 cut out to be supervisors. We like to do this but we 12 don't like to do supervisory stuff." 13 "Well, cool. I'm glad you're honest with 14 me. So what are we going to do?" "I would like to go 15 work here. I would like to do this." "Well, let's 16 see what we can arrange. We'll talk with some people 17 over there and see if there's any openings. You know 18 what I'm saying? I'm okay dealing with that. I just 19 want you to be honest with me so that I know what to 20 do." 21 I don't like being told, "You're doing 22 great. You're doing just what I want," and then you 23 get shot down. Like I say, for me the trust is very 24 important because if you can't trust to go to this 25 individual with a problem, I don't know how that NEAL R. GROSS 1---1 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1' 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.zm

1 person is going to respond. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So that changed it 3 for you right there. 4 mj Ur-hum. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I guess going back 6 just a little bit when you were talking about 7 confronting, more or less, confronting 8 with, "Yeah, I'm stressed out because we're not 9 getting the support that we need from you." You're 10 putting it right on him, you and, and 11 Do you have any explanation for why 12 wouldn't he support his managers? He has directed -13 at this point in time, right? 14Yeh 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Why wouldn't he or 16 why couldn't he? Was he so split out and so 17 overburdened in other areas that he couldn't have 18 these meetings to get coordinated that you were 19 looking for or is there some other reason for it? 20 'J This is just my personal 21 feelings. I think* # ikes to please everybody so 22 if there is a dispute between me and. 1 we'll 23 confront it together. The last guy to see gets 24 the answer he wants.' Then I go see ,and I'll get 25 the answer I want. NEAL R.GROSS/1/ COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 Well, that ain't making it because now the 2 two of us are still not fully resolved. I think that 3 happened across lines, too, with maintenance and a 4 bunch of issues. I don't think he likes confrontation 5 so rather than deal with that and try and get those 6 issues resolved. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that where you see 8 it would have taken? Would it have taken 9 confrontation to get you coordinated in the way that 10 you needed to be that you saw it? 11 Qý Maybe I should reword it a 12 little bit. Usually if you're going to bring the 13 problem to someone to help with the resolution, I 14 don't know that he felt comfortable with that maybe 15 from a knowledge standpoint what is the right thing to 16 do. Rather than have it come to him, he kind of 17 sidestepped it and hoped that it would work out. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Dodged it a little 19 bit. 20 Yeah. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it might be an 22 abilities issue in there. 23 It could be. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On how to resolve it. 25 These are pretty big issues that you're talking about. NEAL R.GROSS7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 A lot of work, a lot of scheduling. 2 MR. BARBER: But as far as the straw that 3 broke the camel's back, it seems like you are still 4 describing that as his lack of support during that NRB 5 meeting. That seems to be kind of where you talk 6 about the trust issue. That's where you describe 7 where the trust is breaking down because he didn't 8 support you either through the NRB meeting process or 9 prior to that to work with . ,directly and 10 say, "Hey, This is the reason that is 11 saying this because I directed this," to kind of take 12 the burden off you and shift it on himself. 13 Not so much to take it off me 14 as to state that is where we want to bring the 15 organization if we have to get that resolved with 16 but it's like, "Well, we'll throw to the 17 wolves on this one. That will give us some time with 18 We'll deal with that next year." 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's the corrective 20 action. 21 That's it. 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You're the corrective 23 action. 24 I I'm the corrective action. 25 MR. BARBER: In going through this process NEAL R. GROSS 1 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. All (202) 234-4433 .WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and hearing what you heard over the period of time 2 that this played out, did you get any kind of 3 impression about them having any concerns or fear of 4 their own positions? I mean, you talk aboutE3 5 wanting to please everybody but could there be a fear 6 there or could there be a fear fro perspective 7 that j1has a lot of power left, positional power, 8 that whether he deserves it or not he has it. He has 9 maybe (phonetic) or somebody like that, 10 orA-(phonetic) A well placed word could 11 cause their undoing. Was there any of that? Did any 12 of that play into this you think? 13 I believe it did. There was 14 another contract group in here at the time. We 15 brought them in to do an assessment of work 16 management. It was just before the Wayno visit was 17 coming on. It was early in that year. It was around 18 the March time frame. 19 MR. BARBER: March 2002? 20 ght. 21 MR. BARBER: Okay. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This wouldn't be Gap, 23 would it? 24 We were working with Gap for 25 awhile. I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of their NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 name, too. I think the guy's name was too. IIm 2 trying to remember the owner's name. They brought him 3 in to do an assessment of work management. I sat in 4 the first debrief which was after two or three weeks. 5 What they told t that meeting was 6 we looked at all three phrases of work management and 7 they said, "The only place you won't have a problem 8 when INPO gets here is planning," which is my group. 9 One of the evaluators, though, told me a month before 10 it happened that, s going to move you out."** 11 There was something in the works even though I had 12 gotten positive feedback from INPO on some assists 13 they had done. That was the first year they had done 14 a Gap survey so the planning department came out real 15 well. Double the average of the work management 16 scores. 17 This evaluation team we had in here 18 thought we did great work with our desk guy, training 19 program, productivity, cost. All this was in about an 20 18-month period. He says, "You're the one to get 21 knocked out of the box." Sure enough a month later I 22 did. Basically he told me -- this guy told me. I 23 don't remember his name but he said, "Basically it 24 came down to £wants somebody's ass for work 25 management not being up to snuff and you were low man NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 on the totem pole." 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have anything 3 else? 4 I really don't want this to 5 sound like sour grapes and it may sound like that to 6 you, but what I'm trying to get at is I think they had 7 other people, not just me, that were doing things to 8 help make the organization stronger and it just came 9 down to political battles. 10 Those political battles and the results of 11 those I'm not really concerned about where I'm at now 12 but the far reaching effect of that is how it is 13 perceived by the rest of the people in the 14 organization and how people react when they see that 15 kind of actions being taken. It has the wrong effect 16 on people. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's going to make 18 them, without putting words in your mouth but what I'm 19 getting out of it is it's going to make them more 20 cautious. As you put it before, you would raise it 21 but you wouldn't push certain issues. 22 You become apprehensive. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How about in the time 24 frames here? You've been under a couple different 25 CNOs or positions. I don't know ifw NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS.I 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 it a CNO position for him or something different? It 2 was site president or something? 3 Site VP 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Site VP? 5 Right. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was the 0 7 at that point? 8 When he first came on it was 9 (phonetic). 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So what year are we 11 going to there? 12 MR. BARBER: I think it was mid '90s. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So '95 to '98 time 14 frame. '98 then we have in the 15 position. 16 MR. BARBER: I 'as before him 17 and then came -in and was 18 engineering. He was I thought 19 Mleft 9 and I though Jcam in as a 20 21 It may have been. 22 MR. BARBER: They may have changed the 23 hierarchy a little bit but he was still the equivalent 24 of 25 Correct. NEAL R. GROSS .. . COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. BARBER: He just wasn't called the 2 president. He was called the INI i i 3 am 4 4 Correct. 5 MR. BARBER: I think we used to write all 6 our correspondence to him. 7 That is correct. left 8 with some kind of Some kind o or 9 something. He left kind of in a hurry but I'm pretty 10 sure he was here whenM first came. This is when we 11 were into the shutdown of the Salem units. 12 MR. BARBER: I was involved with the 13 project then from '94 through -- 14 (Whereupon, the end of Tape 2, Side A.) 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 1:57 p.m. What I was 16 asking was these changes in senior management, it 17 seems as though, at least in terms of who have 18 mentioned so far today, was somebody you were 19 maybe more familiar with or made more of an impact on 20 you than di in that time period. 21 1 Absolutely. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At the VP level 23 there. What about in terms off7 Was it the 24 same kind of thing? Were you more interacting at the 25 senior VP level or VP operations level? Did you have NEAL R.GROSS 7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 much experience in working with 2 Direct, no. He spent, I 3 think, at work all of maybe 10 or 15 minutes with me 4 one day going over some performance indicators for the 5 department. This was probably early 2002, maybe late 6 2001, he had decided he was going to start going 7 around and visiting with department managers and going 8 over PIs and where the department was headed. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That was about four 10 years into it for him, right? 11 Um-hum. Three and a half 12 years probably. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you didn't have 14 much interaction wit' .; then? 1 No. Just to give you my 16 general feelings, as the kind of guy very 17 demanding, very focused on results, very focused on 18 the truth, reality, and very fair. He would call you 19 over to his office and tear you a new behind if you 20 screwed up. 21 Then he would put his arm around you and. 22 say, "Okay, that's the lesson learned. Now we know 23 what we're going to do different tomorrow." And you 24 were clean with oing forward. He would always 25 take moments to coach. You know what I'm saying? NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Treat you like a human being. 2 I mean, of course, sometimes they didn't 3 like the message but I think. Jdid a real good job 4 moving this organization forward in the time that he 5 was here. You always knew one thing with He 6 came straight at you. What he told you was gospel and 7 that you could tell Janything without fear of 8 reprisal. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And you've 10 already described why you wouldn't say the same thing 11 forll 12 I don't think it was just 13 him. I think *had something to do with it. From 14 the interaction I had from him that day, I didn't feel 15 real easy with after that brief meeting we had. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Your 10 to 15-minute 17 discussion? 18 ý7Yah. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Similar style as -- 20 you would have more direct interaction with

21 WYeah, on a day-to-day basis.

22 .23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But neither one of 24 them you were all that comfortable with then.

                          ~No.

25

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Trust. 2 Trust. 3 MR. BARBER: Before this incident with the 4 NRB did you have any reason to distrust 5 in the meetings or anything that you heard or saw? 6 Was there anything? 7 : Other than I think that issue 8 with I was getting that second hand, right? I 9 really didn't know the facts there so I couldn't 10 really judge exactly what was said, what the result 11 was. You know what I'm saying? 12 I had nothing really hard proof in my camp 13 to say you can trust them or can't trust them. At 14 that point it seemed, you know, almost -- you know how 15 you can spot everybody, right? Nothing there to 16 really disprove or prove so you tend to go with 17 everything is okay. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about in other 19 ways in terms of affecting the work environment which 20 goes in a lot of directions. We're talking quite a 21 bit about the ability to raise concerns but in terms 22 of having operational input and conservative decision 23 making and all that that entails. What about when you 24 are under the regime as applied to a safety 25 conscious work environment? Were there any issues NEAL R. GROSS " COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 there that you were aware of? Any concerns? 2 In the safety conscious work 3 environment? 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Senior management 5 involvement in operational decision making. 6 T7 No. No concerns at all. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about under 8 whenever it was in the 10 The difference I saw wit 11 is was involved on the front end. Not that he would 12 make decisions but he would be listening. If we had 13 something critical going on at the plant whether we 14 should be taking the unit down or not taking it down, 15 ýjwas always coaching and mentoring on the front end 16 making sure that the organization went in the right 17 direction. Okay? What I saw in later years now is 18 the organization would go because there was nobody 19 there to help. Then we would come back and beat 20 people up for wrong decisions or incorrect -- you know 21 what I'm saying? 22 MR. BARBER: Was that under the 23 ea 24 More under 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The Monday morning NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 quarter backing? 2 j* Oh, yeah. 3 MR. BARBER: We're not going to tell you 4 what to do but go ahead and do it and then we'll tell 5 you what you did wrong? 6 Yeah. One case in point for 7 me is I don't know if you recall we had shut down to 8 do the recert pump seal in 2003, early that year. 9 MR. BARBER: The B recert pump seal? 10 SA Bravo recert pump seal. When 11 we came out of that outage we had problems with a 12 bypass valve. 13 MR. BARBER: Yeah. 14 Okay? 15 MR. BARBER: Um-hum. 16 Here we are and we can't get 17 No. 2 bypass valve, I believe it was, to go fully 18 closed. 19 MR. BARBER: Okay.

We tried all sort of things.

20 21 It took us days just to noodle out whether or not it 22 was mechanical or electrical. Once we determined it 23 was mechanical, now we realized the plant is going to 24 come down in a condition it's not designed to come 25 down in with a stuck open steam pack. NEAL R. GROSS t-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com w

1 So there was a lot of issues with 2 operations for how are you going to control this cool 3 down when you close the MSIVs. This is not a normal 4 issue. There was no what I would say senior 5 management here during that shutdown that I recall. 6 We took the infrequently performed evolution and 7 made a second OS be the lead for that. Then during 8 that night, if you recall, coming down they had two 9 power excursions. One was about 1 percent. They 10 opted to continue. The second one was about 8 or 9 11 percent. 12 In the plan somewhere it said, "Any 13 unexpected" blah, blah, blah "terminate and scram the 14 reactor." After that all came down went after the 15 ops guys about nonconservative decision. You guys 16 should have done this. You guys should have done 17 that. This was a reactivity management issue. I'm 18 sitting there flabbergasted saying I could understand 19 the second one, you know? The first one I think the 20 guys thought they understood what happened. You know 21 what I'm saying? 22 But on an evolution that critical, you 23 would think that there would be some senior leadership 24 here just to oversee and understand what's going on so 25 you don't get into that Monday morning quarter NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 backing. I just felt like that was inappropriate the 2 way it came out two days later. 3 He made a big deal out of it. It was kind 4 of embarrassing for some of the guys involved. Then 5 they felt like they were on the defensive. I talked 6 to one of the two individuals that were involved. 7 MR. BARBER: Is there anything that would 8 address that from a procedure or policy standpoint? 9 Is there anything in the station's procedures or 10 policies that talks about one senior leadership should 11 be present? Would it specifically mention something 12 along these lines? 7C 13 WON Procedurally I'm not fluent 14 enough right now. I would guess that the IPTE 15 procedure does require a test manager. I don't know 16 that we selected the right individual to be the test 17 manager for that evolution. Where I'm coming from is 18 that, to me, you know you've got the plant in a very 19 peculiar spot. That's the time that we should have 20 been there to help. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Supported it more. 22 Absolutely. If you think at 23 that point they are misinterpreting the procedure 24 steps, I mean, we should be intervening then and not 25 go all night or two days later and then come back. I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 mean, that's the kind of things that to me make -- I 2 think our operations staff right now in some aspects 3 are afraid to almost operate the plant because of some 4 of these types of issues. 5 When we had this SRM issue that was like 6 spiking we were shut down, reactor shutdown. We're in 7 hot shutdown. We had asked the control room personnel 8 if they could take the SRM out of bypass and just move 9 it out a couple of steps because that's where it was 10 acting up during the previous start-up. They said, 11 "We can't move the SRM. We don't have procedural 12 guidance." 13 This is an inoperable detector during 14 shutdown. They have a fear to actually move that SRM 15 because they can't go to a procedure step that says 16 during hot shutdown if it's inoperable, blah, blah, 17 blah, not being used it's okay to move the SRM. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For fear of being 19 second guessed. 20 Absolutely. Yeah. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In the example you 22 were giving about the No. I bypass valve when that was 23 stuck open an came down on the operators for 24 what you're calling a nonconservative decision, would 25 that be typical for to reinforce conservative NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 decision making? 2

                                       -'J    This was shortly after,                      I 3  believe, he was named to be                                       Also.       Prior 4  to that he was 5  I    don't     know    that     he would       have         shared     the      same 6  concerns       prior to that          time.        I    couldn't recall               a 7  specific instance.              You know what I'm saying?

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You can't think of 9 anything that made him come in so strongly against 10 nonconservative decision making prior to this? 11 ( . Prior. 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Prior to this event. 13 It may be because he had a split title. He had other 14 responsibilities other than operations?

Yes.

15 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's ma*(be that he 17 wasn't so focused on it.

                            *3              Correct.

18 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 20 Do you have anything further? 21 MR. BARBER: No. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: One ar ea that we 23 haven't really gotten into too much, we sort of 24 touched on it a little bit in terms of how you feel in 25 today's environment. Do you see -- I mean, you went NEAL R. GROSS \\ COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS p 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 from * ' management area and then you went into 2 and others and now you have a new 3 senior management team in place. 4 Um-hum. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In terms of effect on 6 the work environment at this point, are you seeing 7 anything positively or negatively that relates to the 8 work environment or any changes there? 9 In personnel I don't see too 10 much changes in the work to be honest with you. I 11 hear what says but you've got to understand from 12 my perspectiv came on maybe about nine months ago 13 I would guess. Other than his letters, I personally 14 have not seen him on site at all. 15 I've been here for some of the shutdowns. 16 I'm not asking to come around and make decisions 17 about day-to-day operations. I would have hoped' 18 would have come around and kind of like seen what the 19 workers go through and maybe talk to some of the 20 workers and gain their perspective. 21 I knew him when he was here 22 before. I have respect for because I have a 23 little background with although I was a little 24 disappointed because I haven't seen him that much, 25 okay? I'd seen a lot of when I was over NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND. TRANSCRIBERSAl 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 there for the forced shutdowns at Hope Creek. 2 I was on nights and he is usually around 3 and he's more like a helper. He gets involved. He 4 knows what's going on and he'll talk to you and ask 5 you where you're going. If he thinks you need to 6 adjust, he'll talk to you about that. He'll give you 7 an opportunity to do your job. Some of the people 8 that were involved and what went on before are still 9 there. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:iS still 11 around. 12 13 5,PECIAL AGENT NEFF: is still 14 here, too. Right? 15 is still here. 16 There's some other fairly key players. s still 17 here and I love. I mean, I trust him 18 explicitly. You could say it was and but 19 they are not the only two guys here. 20 If you're telling me the rest of the guys 21 won't stand up before for what was right as a group 22 around them, if they could have been that much 23 influenced by then how do I know they 24 couldn't be influenced unduly again? You know what I 25 mean? NEAL R. GROSS

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yeah. I mean, I 2 understand what you're saying. They may not 3 personally have the nature that it takes to raise an 4 issue if that is the case. 5 Or set the organization in 6 the right direction. You know what I'm saying? To me 7 you need people in those positions. That's what you 8 buy onto and that's why I don't feel bad what happened 9 to me at some point during all this because took 10 a position as a manager. Managers have to make 11 decisions, right? I tried to do the best I could so 12 for whatever reason I'm out. 13 I don't like the process of how they did 14 it but that's okay. You have to make those decisions 15 for the welfare and good of all the people in the 16 organization and the effectiveness of the 17 organization. If those people can't be effective or 18 won't be effective because they are trying to stay on 19 the right side of somebody or whatever, I don't see 20 the organization moving forward all that much. I may 21 have a very limited view of this but -- 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I think I understand 23 what you're say. Do you have anything further? 24 Let me throw out one more 25 thing. All( -c-., NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Oh, I'm sorry.

                                        *                        ~(phonetic) .          I 2

3 worked for'when he was the 4 at Hope Creek. That was shortly after got here 5 that he brought 0 on. Let me tell you, that was 6 another guy that had the respect of people in this 7 organization. You would be sitting up in that turbine 8 deck at Salem in the middle of an outage, cold winter 9 night. 10 Next thing you know would 11 come in in scrubs, the Hope Creek 12 asking those guys up there, "What can I get you? What 13 do you need? What do you need to be successful?" 14 "Who are you?" "Oh, I'm I'm from over at Hope 15 Creek." Whew. I don't even see the guy from here let 16 alone Hope Creek. That's the way was. They 17 pushed him out of here. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you say they?

I thin O to 19 20 me was a real people guy. He was the p He goes 21 off t to get groomed and while he's gone they 22 make an organizational announcement about another 23 organizational change and that's where now gets 24 moved over to operations and takes over 25 maintenance and work management. What's going on?

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So there's no spot 2 for him to come back to? 3 Like the second engineering 4 guy because jwas the engineering guy. That to 5 me was another, "What the heck did they do to 6 A lot of people felt that way. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He was an individual 8 that was challenging them to do things in a certain 9 way? 10 Either challenging them or he 11 was doing things. I don't think he would conform to 12 some other method. You know what I'm saying? 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was it management 14 style or more than that? -15 had a wonderful 16 management style. Maybe he would not go along with 17 some of the things they wanted to do. I don't know. 18 I don't know the particulars but if I had to pick 19 myself out of all Pwe had and'say who would you 20 rank at the top, it would bewm It seemed 21 like he was the one that got shoved out the door. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You had a question, 23 Scott? 24 Well, I was going to ask 25 about why it was he left or what your thought was on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that. I think you kind of gave that to us. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Let me do this. I'm 3 going to take a quick break. We'll go off the record. 4 It's about 2:17 p.m. 5 (Whereupon, at 2:17 p.m. off the record.) 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. It's about 7 2:19. We're on after a brief break. We started 8 talking again about that No. 2 bypass valve incident 9 back in March of 2003. You were kind of continuing 10 the story. After it had been stuck open for two days 11 the valve went closed. 12 Correct. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On the way down, 14 right? On the way to shutdown? 15 Um-hum. And when the valve 16 went closed, we actually had a meeting that morning to 17 decide whether or not now we were going to go in and 18 look at the valve because now it's closed. Whatever 19 was holding it open must have cleared. I'm sitting 20 there shocked. 21 We spent two days here trying to get this 22 valve to properly operate. We don't know what was 23 causing it. We were actually think about going back 24 up in power without going in and looking at this 25 valve. I think it took almost four hours to make the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 decision to say no, let's come down and inspect the 2 valve. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you at that 4 meeting? 5 _ Not the final meeting to make 6 the decision but I was in the OCC at the time. I told 7 people, I said, we cannot go back up without looking 8 at this valve. There were some maintenance people 9 that thought, "Hey, we're done. It's closed. What am 10 I going to go look at?" They were willing to assume 11 that whatever was either holding the valve open had 12 flushed through. In fact, that had not been the case. 13 It was still stuck in the valve body. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you were in the 15 original meeting, who was in the meeting that you were 16 in? You said the final decision wasn't made at that 17 particular meeting. 18 One of the turbine 19 superintendents. I think it was WIN 20 (phonetic). I distinctly remembe ecause 21 was one of the maintenance guys that didn't want to go 22 back into the valve. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He was satisfied it 24 was closed? 25 Um-hum. NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. A2/ Itc (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. BARBER: Why would that be? I mean, 2 why would he think that way? I'm not trying to ask it 3 to be a flippant question. 4 No, no. 5 MR. BARBER: Is there something in either 6 the work environment or the resources that are 7 available? Is there some other external effect or 8 internal effect that predisposes him to think a 9 certain way and to have a certain wishful kind of 10 outlook on the need to resolve a problem? 11 :I would have to say there is 12 a certain part of maintenance that they don't like 13 going out and doing this work, especially big jobs. 14 Okay? I'm not one to go out there and say, "Let's go 15 do maintenance for the heck of it." When you don't 16 understand why, equipment doesn't fix itself in 17 general. Right? 18 MR. BARBER: Right. 19 You need to understand why. 20 I do believe there is a faction that says, "No, you 21 don't have to know why. It's fixed now. Leave it 22 alone." 23 MR. BARBER: You think it's just as simple 24 as that. 25 Yeah. Not wanting to go out NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and doing the maintenance. 2 MR. BARBER: Could there be any thought 3 that maybe there is a risk involved from a standpoint 4 of we go out and do maintenance when it's an urgent 5 problem. If we can't fix the problem, it makes us 6 look bad. Is there any of that that goes into that? 7 Do things like that ever get expressed to you in 8 meetings? They feel like we're in a can't win 9 situation? 10 --V"Wj 0[One of the things that went 11 on for awhile, and you bring up a good point, from a 12 cause perspective let's say you've got a valve that's 13 leaking through, an isolation valve. You may plan to 14 go in and replace it. People were told at one time 15 here if you take any piece of equipment out and you go 16 to put it back and there's any problem with that 17 valve, even if it wasn't identified before, it's your 18 ass. Excuse the French. Right? 19 We got into this thing where people didn't 20 want to go into something unless they had every nut, 21 every bolt, every gasket, every part because they had 22 a fear that if they walked away from this thing and 23 something else broke or was identified, they didn't 24 fix it 100 pristine, that they would be on the trouble 25 list. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)W 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Even for unrelated 2 problems it would be tagged and whoever last worked on 3 it. When did that start? 4 9 That was part of the 5 regime. 6 MR. BARBER: Wasn't there some safety 7 valve work or something that precipitated that? 8 Wasn't there something where there was some rebuild? 9 I don't know the details. I wasn't actually here at 10 the time but I'm thinking it was at Salem but it could 11 have been at Hope Creek. I thought it was either SRV 12 work or safety valve work where one valve was 13 disassembled, reassembled, fine. 14 Another valve was disassembled and 15 reassembled. There were some leftover parts. The 16 parts were actually needed. The valve either leaked 17 or didn't operate properly and the people that were 18 involved from the maintenance end I think they were 19 terminated. 20 21 before t:hat. 4 Yes. That philosophy came 22 MR. BARBER: Oh, was it? 23 Yes. The incident you're 24 talking about they did disassemble two pressurized 25 relief valves during the outage. They were NEAL R.GROSSAlI:1Cf COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 reassembled incorrectly. One they left a ring out. 2 MR. BARBER: Okay. 3 The valve was lifting early 4 during start-up. 5 MR. BARBER: Okay. 6 Ca I.. You are correct. They 7 eventually fired the individuals, the individuals that 8 were involved with that, including the supervisor that 9 was home sleeping at the time the valve was 10 reassembled incorrectly. The supervisor that was here 11 supervising the work when it was done incorrectly was 12 not fired. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What reason was 14 offered for that? Any? 15 I think the one that was at 16 home it was actually his job so they were saying he 17 was accountable whether he was here or not. 18 MR. BARBER: Was the expectation that he 19 should have been here? 20 No. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But he didn't fix it 22 right while he was on it as some point in time? 23 Well, if the internals of the 24 valves are reassembled incorrectly when you're home 25 sleeping and then you come back and it's already got NEAL R. GROSS, COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS A(17 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the cap on, you're not going to know. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So he had nothing to 3 do with the wrongful assembly. 4 MR. BARBER: He's a victim of 5 circumstance. 6 J I think there was some other 7 stuff in here where this guy has had some other 8 problems with other work in the past. This was 9 probably the opportunity to -- 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The supervisor who 11 was at home? 12 hum. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 14 I believe his 15 name was. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What is the time 17 frame for this incident then? 18 jj7 Salem I outage, I believe. 19 Salem 2 was the last one we just did so it's almost, 20 I would say, 15 or 14 months ago. I think I was 21 coming out of the salem outage. 22 MR. BARBER: Fall 2002? Something like 23 that? 24 j I think so. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about the bypass NEAL R. GROSSl COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 valve incident where you're saying certain parts of 2 maintenance are happy just -- they don't want to do 3 the big job and they were going to accept that 4 something that was obvious to you and others? I 5 guess others. 6 I know that it should have been repaired 7 at that point in time. Are you aware of any other 8 pushes from them, any other jobs where that was the 9 mindset where they were just going to skirt it and 10 say, "No. We got lucky. It's repaired. It fixed 11 itself and we are going to move away from that." 12 - JI'll tell you, the delta ARM 13 in my mind there is a similar issue. Not that they 14 say -- you see, they say - - 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That was the false 16 start-up you were talking about. 17 Right. Even right now they 18 say that maintenance's position is, "We can't nothing 19 with the SRM. It's fixed. No, wait a minute. 20 There's this intermittent spiking problem. Well, 21 that's got nothing to do with me." "Well, who does it 22 got to do with?" "We'll talk to engineering." 23 Engineering is saying its maintenance. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: They are pointing at 25 each other. NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. g '6 (202)

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SOperations is saying, "I want 2 my SRM fixed," and here we are 15 years later still 3 with the same intermittent spiking on delta SRM. We 4 checked the detector. We checked the connections. 5 Everything looks good. Well, what are we doing to try 6 and find the problem? Nothing. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about other 8 issues? This was, as Scott was saying, an emerging 9 issue with the bypass valve. This one is something 10 that you kind of learned to live with over this long 11 period of time. Any other issues that would be 12 emerging that maintenance just wasn't going to 13 approach properly? 14 One of the places where we 15 typically have problems in outages and we find leaks 16 is in the steam tunnel. In an earlier outage this 17 year we had a leak on a reactor with a cleanup 18 phalange in the steam tunnel. It was 10 drops per 19 minute. We need to go in there and tighten up on it 20 at least to see if we could get it to stop. "Well, we 21 don't want to do that because..." They had a long 22 list of reasons why. 23 "What about fixing it?" "Well, you know 24 the size of that job. We've got to cut the hangar 25 off." So we didn't fix it. It will make it until the NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS AIII /~ 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 refueling outage. When we shut down for -- I'm 2 forgetting all the different shutdowns now because we 3 had so many. 4 Subsequent to that forced outage three or 5 four months later it may have been we had another 6 forced outage. We go in the steam tunnel and now the 7 steam is blowing a steady stream. I mean, very 8 heavily. You could barely hear in there the blow was 9 so bad. This time we had to go in and fix it. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Can't make it to the 11 next outage? 12No. But it was like here is 13 another example of we've got a leak but we are afraid 14 to go after it. We've got other valves in the steam 15 tunnel we did leak repair on coming out because we 16 didn't want to go in and do the repair. Whether we 17 got the right parts, I mean, this F0 20 valve has been 18 an issue for a long time. 19 Every time it seems like we think we've 20 got the right parts but now we don't have all the 21 parts so we can't work at this forced outage. You 22 know what I'm saying? It's like there was another 23 valve in the turbine building that had a bad packing 24 leak and an MOV that was binding when we tried to hand 25 crank it. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)B 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 So there was an aura out there and one of 2 the guys said, "You need to go out and work this. " 3 They went out there, ran the MOV by motor. Said they 4 didn't hear anything and there was no sign of a 5 packing leak and closed the work order. This is with 6 no steam in the system and we closed the work order 7 out. Had to get it replanned the next day to go out 8 and repack the valve. It's like they don't want to 9 work in my mind. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that what it comes 11 down to for you? Big jobs, hard jobs they don't 12 handle aggressively. 13 *Diesel exhaust. We've had 14 leaks on diesel exhausts for years. Can't deal with 15 it. Can't get it done in the LCO time, blah, blah, 16 blah. The charlie and delta diesels are 14- day LCOs 17 so I don't know what stopped us there. 18 Even alpha bravo we don't say at least we 19 can take the covers off, the outer covers, go down and 20 look, see exactly where it's at. "I can't believe we 21 can't get this done in 72 hours. Tell me what it's 22 going to take." I' Ill come to the NRC and say, "I want 23 to fix this leak and it's going to take me -- I can't 24 do it in 72 but I can do it in '86. Will you give me 25 a break?" NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Typically you would get that. I don't see 2 that aggressiveness to go after getting some of these 3 issues done. It's more what can we think about to 4 defer it rather than how can we make it happen. 5 You're getting a lose spin on it but I think if you 6 talk to a lot of people in work management, you'll get 7 the same feel that we don't aggressively go after it. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Rather than be 9 proactive on something you wait until it becomes 10 something that can't be ignored or can't be operated 11 with and then you have to fix it. 12 MR. BARBER: What's at the root of that? 13 I mean, is it really that they don't want to fix the 14 power plant or is there something else there? Is 15 there some other external factor or internal factor 16 that is causing that behavior? 17 7C,- That I'm not sure. I can't 18 answer that for you. What I would like to see the 19 management team do is if there is some other factor 20 there, let's get that on the table and let's deal with 21 it because the result is always the same. We keep 22 deferring work. You know what I mean? If it's craft 23 expertise, maybe we need to stand some people down 24 there with them while they are doing the work. 25 MR. BARBER: What if it's the management NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that needs to be involved with providing the solution? 2 What if it's their willingness to deal with the 3 issues? 76 4 M.] That could very well be the 5 case. 6 MR. BARBER: Then they are not going to be 7 in a position to put a spotlight on themselves as 8 being ineffective, would they? 9 2-No. I'm very frustrated here 10 because if you look over the years, the amount of work 11 we get done in a week has been steadily, in my mind, 12 going down. We used to do a lot more work in a work 13 week than we accomplish now. You've got to balance 14 work and rest, okay? I'm not saying to go out there 15 and cowboy it but you have to expect that as your 16 workload goes up, you're going to have a few more 17 little issues coming up. 18 Somebody went to the wrong component 19 maybe. You try to limit that and you try and have 20 yourself in a work management process that even if you 21 went to the wrong component because you're in a 22 specific channel, all the other channels are 23 protected. You minimize risk. We've gotten to the 24 point where everybody is so afraid of getting their 25 head chopped off at anything, well, you want to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 foolproof. To get to foolproof -- 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It takes too long. 3 7 ... It is going to take long. 4 MR. BARBER: Or you just don't do 5 anything. There's no risk if you don't -- you can't 6 be faulted for doing a poor repair if you don't do the 7 repair at all. 8 -7 C, In our world here if you get 9 nine out of 10 jobs done, you are 90 percent. You're 10 golden. Now, the same guy with the same amount of 11 people gets 17 of 20 jobs done or 16 of 20 and he's on 12 the bad boy list. You only got 80 percent. We're not 13 matching apples and -- you don't understand. That 14 indicator is 90 percent. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Which would naturally 16 lead somebody to tackle the easier jobs to get the 17 numbers up and leave the complicated hard jobs and 18 just push them off because you're going to get less of 19 them done obviously. 20 MR. BARBER: That's what I'm getting at. 21 Maybe there's some process things. Maybe there's 22 something where you need to step back and say what is 23 the consequence of this indicator? Does it have the 24 wrong consequence? It could be that or it could be 25 something else. It could be other things. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 1202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 C--There's j77 a whole lot of stuf f 2 To me there is nothing wrong if you say to 3 maintenance, "Look, this valve is leaking through. I 4 want you to go out and replace the disk." They take 5 that whole thing apart. "We should have order a stem, 6 too, because the stem has got a gull on it." "Well, 7 can we fix the disk?" "Yeah. We may have to go back 8 again. That's the chance you take but if you are 9 going to sit around and wait until every gasket, every 10 nut, every bolt, a body. "I can't replace that on 11 line. We better wait and make this an outage job." 12 Come on. Let's go replace the disk. You follow what 13 I mean? 14 MR. BARBER: Yes. 15 -7C- There was times we didn't do 16 work on equipment to fix the equipment because we 17 didn't have the paint. Now, as far as I'm concerned, 18 I would rather have a healthy safety injection pump 19 unpainted than to have a safety injection pump wait 20 for PM or repair until we got the right color paint 21 there so that when we walked away it looked pretty. 22 Don't get me wrong, it should look pretty but don't 23 defer maintenance work. 24 That's why I say to me right now the 25 organization is kind of like out here with a bunch of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 issues and has lost a lot of focus. I think we need 2 a systematic approach to bring us back in on what is 3 important, what do we need to focus on and get people 4 back in the game. People aren't going to get back in 5 the game if they think they are going to get hatcheted 6 first time they make a mistake. That's my opinion. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's a good point. 8 Good point. I wanted to go back again just a little 9 bit on this. You were talking about the meetings 10 regarding the bypass valve. You are talking about it 11 more from the perspective of maintenance people being 12 present. Were you present at any meetings where ops 13 management was discussing what to do with the bypass 14 valve? 15 I was involved in a meeting. 16 They had called me on a meeting to review the 17 procedure they were going to use to come down. I was 18 familiar with Hope Creek and they asked me if I would 19 give the procedure a review and give them some 20 comments on if I thought the sequencing on the actions 21 they were going to take were okay. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that for going 23 into the IPTE? 24 That was for the IPTE, yes. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So then what NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 about at the point in time where they had done that 2 and they have gotten down and the valve now closes? 3 Were you present at any meetings at that point where 4 it was discussed how to handle that? You are 5 indicating that some people in maintenance at that 6 time said, "That's fine. That's acceptable. We're 7 good to go." But were you at any meetings where ops 8 management was present for that? I'm looking at any 9 OSs, AOM? 10 ** No. No. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You weren't in on 12 anything like that? 13 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Ops management or 15 senior management? 16 No. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On the decision 18 making? 19 No. I do know that the 20 ultimate decision was we went into the valve. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. But you don't 22 know how you got there necessarily? You don't know 23 what the positions were that were taken at any point 24 in time by anybody in opts management or senior 25 management? I,'. NEAL R. GROSS fij/i -- COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.comn

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Do you have 3 anything further on that, Scott? 4 MR. BARBER: Not on that. 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you have others. 6 MR. BARBER: I have other things. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We'll go there 8 then. Let me just ask do you need a break? Do you 9 want to stretch or anything? 10 ] I'm fine unless you guys need 11 to. 12 MR. BARBER: No, we're good. 13 I'm good. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Quickly, though, let 15 me just say one thing outside because I had a phone 16 call coming in. I'll go off the record. It's 2:40 17 p.m. 18 (Whereupon, at 2:40 p.m. off the record 19 until 2:41 p.m.) 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We're back on 21 the record. It's approximately 2:41 p.m. 22 MR. BARBER: I just had a couple of 23 technical issues I wanted to ask you about. We've 24 already talked about the No. 1 turbine bypass valve. 25 We talked about what you knew about that. You also NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 talked a little bit about the reactivity issue that 2 occurred afterwards and what your knowledge and what 3 your involvement was with that. 4 There's been a few other things that 5 happened over the course of the last few years that I 6 just want to chat with you a little bit about. One 7 was -- you may or may not have had any involvement. 8 One had to do with an emergency diesel generator 9 nuclear leak. That was in the June 2003 time frame. 10 It had to do with taking the diesel out of 11 service, declare it inoperable, going through a couple 12 of different maintenance activities to repair that and 13 get engineering involved with the operability 14 determination. Are you familiar with that at all? 15 7c-, j- No. I was not involved with 16 that issue. 17 MR. BARBER: Okay. How about an off-gas 18 leak that slowly degraded over time? Normally off-gas 19 flow may run anywhere from 15 to 40 SCFM. In this 20 instance it progressed from some value in that range 21 up to a value that exceeded 75 SCFM over some period 22 of time. There was some consternation about what to do 23 about it because the procedure said do not operate 24 above 75 but it didn't give any action. Did you have 25 any recollection of that issue or any involvement with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that? 2 <7... J My recollection with that 3 issue was I knew it was occurring. I knew they were 4 having a problem. I knew they were undecided about 5 what to do because what would have happened if they 6 would have shut down, it would have come onto us to 7 run the shutdown and get the work done. That was 8 really my extent. I didn't get involved in any of the 9 decisions. 10 MR. BARBER: Okay. I guess the other 11 thing to ask about is the deregulated environment. 12 One of the things that we've heard through a number of 13 the interviews is certainly a factor. We don't know 14 to what extent but when the industry became 15 deregulated the way the plants operate has sort of 16 changed with time. 17 It slowly changed but in some places 18 changed more rapidly. I would like to get your take 19 on this since you've been here for a fairly long time. 20 Did you notice in the '80s and '90s it wasn't really 21 -- you know, you operated in a regulated environment. 22 You usually had a public utility commission that is 23 overseeing rad case type actions and provides a 24 certain type of financial framework. 25 Then when you shift over to a deregulated NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 environment, it's more competitive. That's basically 2 the essence of it. You are cost competitive with 3 everyone else. You tend to have to justify more. 4 Have you noticed any significant changes as a result 5 of that? 6 -j Here's the changes I've seen. 7 We go back to the regulated environment days. If 8 there was work that had to get done, let's talk 9 preventive maintenance, corrective maintenance. 10 "Would you be willing to work it on overtime?" 11 Absolutely. If you work two nights a week 12 to get the Ms done, get corrective maintenance caught 13 up, you may work the weekend, you may put more work 14 into an outage because even though you were down, you 15 were still getting paid on the plant. Even though you 16 lost the production money, there was still a source of 17 income based on the next value of the plant. 18 I think from that, that's what I see the 19 big thing that's changed in the regulated environment. 20 I mean, if we've got a hole in the side of a tank, we 21 know we've got to go fix it and we'll get the money to 22 go fix that. 23 It's the softer issues like we won't have 24 to spend overtime and we won't keep the unit out a 25 little bit longer to fix things. We put more stuff NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 into outages just because we need to get them fixed. 2 I think there we don't do as well as we used to do. 3 We do a lot of PM deferrals because that doesn't cost 4 money and dinero will sit here. 5 If they don't get paid overtime better to 6 do the deferrals than to make maintenance do the PMs 7 because the only way to get maintenance to do the PMs, 8 in some cases, is to work it on overtime. Don't have 9 the money. 10 You see this year, and I believe what 11 drove it is what is going on with the safe work 12 environment, is we are being told now pull all this 13 backlog of online work into the outage. This upcoming 14 Salem outage we've been given a list of -- there's a 15 bunch of work we want to get done. 16 MR. BARBER: That list would normally have 17 been items that would be worked on line? 18 7 Cl Worked on line and not coming 19 into -- 20 (Whereupon, the end of Tape 2, Side B.) 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Approximately 2:47 22 p.m. You might want to restate your question, Scott, 23 because I think that cuts off. 24 MR. BARBER: Okay. My question was do you 25 think the reason that the online work is being pulled NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 up into a refueling outage to do work there, is it to 2 send a message to the organization that we want to fix 3 problems and we want to address them and this is our 4 way of showing the organization? We're going to 5 demonstrate it through action. We're going to 6 actually repair these things that would normally be 7 planned out over a long period of time. Or is there 8 some other reason for that? 9 My personal belief, it's more 10 to impress you than us meaning the NRC in that you've 11 got this letter that you've issued us now about safe 12 work environment and I think these are steps that are 13 taken to tell you in response, "See what we're doing." 14 I don't know how long that will last is my personal 15 feeling. I don't know if it's the NRC in this 16 response or to improve the environment of the work 17 force. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The timing for that 19 came out after the letter was issued in January? 20 21 MR. BARBER: So is that a good thing or a 22 bad thing? 23 It's a good thing that it 24 fixes plant. To me it's not the right thing if the 25 motivation for the leadership team is to answer the NEAL R. GROSS q// -1 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 NRC letter by saying, "Look, we'll go out and fix some 2 of our outstanding issues." It's really not us. 3 There's really not an issue here, right? If they're 4 doing it because it's the right thing to do, okay but 5 if they are doing it just to appease the NRC and put 6 something on the table to say, "Look, we are serious 7 about the safety." 8 In my mind, if it's. truly online work and 9 they want to fix the problem, then we should be fixing 10 why it's not getting done online because you can't 11 year after year after year let a backlog build up and 12 throw them into an outage. We will never be 13 economically viable like that. Understand what I'm 14 saying? 15 MR. BARBER: I do. 16 -7C2, If the problem is the online 17 work isn't getting done for some reason, let's fix 18 that so that I know that the fix is real and long 19 lasting. That I don't know is happening. Understand 20 what I mean? 21 MR. BARBER: I do. But isn't the 22 industry, in fact, starting to take a hard look at 23 what they are doing online, the industry as a whole? 24 The outages have gotten so short that basically it's 25 like open the breaker and shut the unit down, load NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 fuel in as quickly as possible, button everything back 2 up, start the plant back up. 3 * *C7n hum. 4 MR. BARBER: I mean, you're getting down 5 to, I mean, literally it's really nothing more than 6 getting new fuel in the pot and shuffling the old fuel 7 around and putting it where it needs to be. 8 *In 15, 20 days you can't do 9 much more than your 18-month surveillances. 10 MR. BARBER: Right. But we've heard that 11 some of that is that the industry is saying maybe 12 we've gone too far. Instead of having a 12-day outage 13 or a 15-day outage, maybe the optimum is 20 or 25 14 days. Sometime more so you, in fact, you can do 15 things that by rights even though you could do them 16 online they are really cumbersome. 17 Maybe there's some feed pump work or 18 something else where you've got major system work 19 where you've got to be intrusive and you need time to 20 do that to do it right rather than trying to do it 21 online with steam in the headers and what have you. 22 The plant hot and critical. 23 I would agree but that to me 24 is fixing your online process.. If you came to me and 25 said, "Look, we rescrubbed what we're doing online NEAL R. GROSSA(I-c COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 work. These types of items will no longer be done 2 online. These will always go into outages," I'm cool 3 with that. 4 We have done something. But if we are 5 just going to take a backlog list and say, "There's 6 150 corrective maintenance backlog on Salem Unit 1. 7 Here, get them done in the outage this time," well, 8 what are we going to do the next time? You know what 9 I'm saying? 10 MR. BARBER: Yeah, I do. I understand 11 your point. 12 13 = That is what I would rather 14 see us go after is what is the strategic? You're 15 right, this may be short term and I'll grant you that, 16 but where is the strategic? Where are we going in the 17 future? That's what I think has to come out as part 18 of this. 19 MR. BARBER: Okay. You mentioned our 20 letter. What did you think of our letter? Did you 21 read it? 22 OT .Yeah. 23 MR. BARBER: What was your thoughts on 24 that once you read it? 25 f1 -I was very happy about the NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS iII 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 letter. 2 MR. BARBER: And why was that? 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Any particular 4 aspect? In terms of accuracy and what you've seen, I 5 would think the emerging issues you might have been in 6 agreement with then. 7 . ... M To tell you the truth, I tend 8 to follow some of the bigger industry issues. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 10 /For the past year and a half 11 or so I spent a lot of time following the Davis-Besse 12 issue. When you talk about the types of issues that 13 were going on, material condition, not recognizing 14 problems, or maybe recognizing them but not asking all 15 the right questions because you didn't want the 16 answer, you kind of could have drawn a lot of 17 similarities to us. 18 There was a couple of friends of mine 19 here, people that I do trust. One of them is LOW 20 9(phonetic). I told them as I'm reading these 21 things over, I'm saying I could draw a lot of 22 similarities to what is going on at Davis-Besse to 23 what is going on here. We can't see it. People I 24 think still don't see it. I think the letter was good 25 from the standpoint it got the issue finally up there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 where they have to acknowledge it and that's my point 2 with the letter. 3 I'm still a little bit out on what we're 4 doing as to responding to the letter. We hired a new 5 VP. I'm sure that will be part of the response that 6 we brought somebody in with some expertise that is 7 already looking like they are going that way with 8 that. We are dumping work into the outages. I think 9 that will be part of the spin. 10 I don't want to talk publicly about any of 11 previous work changes but I think they have some 12 patch-up work to do there because, like I said, their 13 plan on record is to bring these guys back. I don't 14 know how you can blame them and then they're coming 15 back. Some truth will have to be established there. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that -- was that 17 pretty public when the individuals went to INPO? Was 18 it announced in anyway that they would be back and 19 they were going for grooming for this, that, or the 20 other position? Documented somewhere or just 21 announced at meetings? 22 I could probably go through 1J 23 some paperwork and some files that probably does say 24 that. I think they're on the org chart. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I see. Still on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 org chart. 2 -hum. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. If there was 4 going to be the position now that these individuals 5 who were part of the problem before, we never intended 6 for them to come back, then that's going to be a 7 different position than they took not even a year ago? 8 -.- Yeah. The same people that 9 are talking now. You know what I'm saying? The new 10 people. To me that raises some amount of credibility 11 with the new people that "You tell us this but you 12 really didn't mean it. If you're not telling me the 13 truth about that, what else are you not telling me the 14 truth about?" 15 MR. BARBER: But is that really tied to 16 them or is that tied to the old regime? 17 That's tied to the new 18 regime. 19 MR. BARBER: They said they're bringing 20 them back? 21 W lUm-hum. 22 MR. BARBER: All right. I thought that 23 was leftover from when -- 24 That was 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's what I was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 going to say. The only person who would have been in 2 place then and now who would have had that information 3 would have been* 4 Okay. I have to take a break. There's 5 somebody I need to see real quick. I'm sorry. We'll 6 go off the record. It's 2:55 p.m. 7 (Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m. off the record 8 until 3:00 p.m.) 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We are back on the 10 record and it's 3:00 p.m. I don't know if we had 11 anything further to add to that at this point. I 12 think you were talking about concerns in terms of how 13 to fix things. Where you saw there might be some 14 problem areas with credibility and so forth. I don't 15 know if you have anything further you would want to 16 add to that. 17 .We've gone so long without 18 some information like strategic information, where 19 we're going, you know, it's not really clear whether 20 or not we are replacing the unit 2 steam generators or 21 not. Some people say yes and some people say, "We're 22 thinking about the Fern network." It's just a whole 23 bunch of issues like that. 24 Where is the organization going? For some 25 reason it seems like they can't just lay it out there, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

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1 "Here is what the organization is going to look like 2 next year. Here is what we plan on getting done next 3 year. Here are our top five issues at each plant that 4 we have to get done. Here are changes we' re making to 5 the work management process. We're moving some work 6 to the outages versus online.1" 7 I don't hear any of that and to me it's 8 always reactionary mode. We're reacting to the 9 letter. Of course, you have to do some amount. Where 10 I was really disappointed, and it's like when you guys 11 put out the letter one of the first meetings after 12 that, which I was not at bu f t j (phonetic), 13 a friend of mine, was at the meeting, one of the 14 ., it may have either been* 15 put out was, "Based on one of the previous surveys, we 16 knew we had a problem on element. We knew we had a 17 safety environment problem. NRC got the information 18 letter out before we had a chance to respond." 19 I said to I said, I can't 20 believe that. I can't believe they knew before." 21 "You're being cynical." I said, "Well, one of the 22 things they keep telling us is if you know of a safety 23 issue, write a notification and get it in the box." 24 Now, if those people knew two or three 25 months ago that there was an environment issue down NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 there, shouldn't they have written the notification 2 when they got the results of those surveys and they 3 found different specific areas that needed some 4 issues? I said, why didn't they write the 5 notifications?" He looks at me and says, "That's a 6 good point." Why wouldn't they hold themselves to the 7 same requirement they expect us to do? You know what 8 I'm saying? 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. 10 3,.-7 1 understand at some point 11 there is some confidentiality or whatever but if the 12 surveys are pointing out there is an issue, why 13 wouldn't you come and confront and bring it out with 14 the work force right away? We all were wondering 15 where the survey results were ourselves because a lot 16 of people have taken time to provide feedback. We did 17 one earlier in the year and the feedback we got was, 18 "Well, that's not really appropriate. The Gallop 19 survey is not really geared to the nuclear industry." 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 21 4 "We're going to have another 22 one done." 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Are you talking about 24 the Synergy survey? 25 ["j The Synergy survey. NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 MR. BARBER: Gallop was a different 2 survey. 3 Gallop was a different one. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, I know, but the 5 Synergy survey was done later in 2003. Right? 6 Correct. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is this the one that 8 was supposed to have gotten the results that 9 0 said we knew about? 10 1 think 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That's the one 12 they're referring to? 13 I think that's the one they 14 are referring to unless it was the earlier one. I 15 thought it would have been the Synergy. That's what 16 I'm saying is you learn two surveys now in the past 17 six or seven months. We don't have the results or 18 feedback from any of them. What did we learn? 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about the 20 ongoing quarterly ECP surveys? They cover work 21 environment to a certain extent, too. 22 Somewhat. 23- SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you get results 24 from that? 25 You can go in and look at the NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS AI~( 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 results, yeah. I think they also publish them 2 quarterly. 3 MR. BARBER: Is there any useful 4 information that comes out of those such that this 5 actionable -- that it points in the direction that in 6 this area we need to -- we have this weakness or we 7 can do this to address that? Is there something like 8 that in there? 9 I don't recall from the last 10 time I looked. I know they have a turn, whether they 11 think the specific areas are turning positively or 12 negatively. Specific actions, I -- 13 MR. BARBER: Let me ask you a different 14 way. Were you ever made aware of or did anybody ever 15 question you or give you any feedback like in your 16 group? Like say when you're the planning manager did 17 anybody ever come to you and say, "Hey, we did this 18 survey of your people and this is thenet result," or 19 something that was fed down through.3 20 "This is the result for our big group and these are 21 our strengths and these are our weaknesses. As a 22 result I want you to work on these weaknesses." 23 Other than the first Gallop, 24 no. What was the results of the 1/1-~ 25 MR. BARBER: NEAL R. GROSS /' COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 first Gallop? Is that the thing that was a prelude to 2 what you said was a Wayno or INPO review where they 3 said planning is okay and the other two - - 4 *

No, no, no. That wasn't the 5 Gallop. I forget the name of the outfit that came in 6 and did that evaluation. That was a private 7 contractor.

8 MR. BARBER: Okay. I just wasn't sure if 9 -- 10 jf That was like an assessment 11 of work management. This was something separate we 12 did company wide, a Gallop survey. 13 MR. BARBER: Okay. 14 It was like to look at the 15 environment, you know, people's satisfaction with work 16 and PSEG. 17 MR. BARBER: What kind of feedback did 18 your organization get? 19 My work group did fairly 20 well. The areas that were most noted for improvement, 21 one was with the tools they were working with and 22 another one was with feedback, that they wanted more 23 feedback. Those were the two areas. Most of the 24 other scores were pretty good. 25 MR. BARBER: Okay. And did you get NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. AlA)i-(202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgmss.com

1 similar feedback from the Synergy survey? 2 : No, we haven't gotten 3 anything back yet. 4 MR. BARBER: Do you know when the results 5 came out for that? 6 No. 7 MR. BARBER: When did you actually take 8 the survey yourself? 9 1I think it was sometime last 10 year. 11 MR. BARBER: September, October, November, 12 something like that? 13 i Something like that. 14 MR. BARBER: So it was in the fall 15 sometime? 16 Yeah. What I remember was we 17 got the results of the first Gallop and then we did a 18 second Gallop and never got the results. That's when 19

aid he didn't believe in the Gallop. He thought 20 the Synergy was more tailored to the nuclear business.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So they contracted 22 for a new survey for later in 2003? 23 Correct. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Two surveys in 2003 25 then? COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 1 Right. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No results yet? 3 Have not seen the results of 4 either one. 5 MR. BARBER: Well, actually three, right? 6 Because the first Gallop was in 2003 earlier in the 7 year. Wasn't it? 8 ff.- No, it was the year before. 9 MR. BARBER: Oh, it was in 2002? Okay. 10 So the second Gallop was in 2003. You didn't get 11 results from that. Then Synergy was after that and 12 you haven't seen results from that? 13 1 No. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you also had some 15 ECP results in there and they might be posted. Just 16 hearing your answers, you could go look at it if you 17 wanted and, no, you haven't looked at it in a long 18 time, is there a reason for that? It didn't seem like 19 you are paying all that much attention to those 20 results. 21 All the ones that I had seen 22 I probably looked at five or six times. It was like 23 -- I forget the exact value range they were using but 24 it was like a percentage change up or down in each 25 category each time. I never saw where there were any NEAL R. GROSSj COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 large changes at that point. It was either, "Yeah, 2 we're okay." Up. "Yeah, we're okay." Flatout, 3 "Yeah, we're okay." Slightly down, you know, but 4 there was no big significant data on the results sheet 5 that I was looking at. Maybe you're thinking of 6 something different that was there. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No. What I'm 8 wondering is in terms of what you were seeing, what 9 you were experiencing on site, the survey results that 10 you were looking at, were they reflective of what you 11 were living? 12 Qj Me? I don't think so. I 13 talked to people that do surveys here and there are 14 some people that will say, "I tell them what they want 15 to hear." 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Then why participate? 17 Q j Why participate? Either do 18 it honest or don't contaminate the data. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How about now? Do 20 you think people would engage in giving them honest 21 feedback on a survey at this point in time? I mean, 22 the NRC letters out there. There is some sort of 23 acknowledgement of a work environment issue. How do 24 you think that would work now? I mean, if Synergy was 25 done prior to the NRC letter, would it be different NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 for them now? If they were to come around and go 2 specifically, where do you see issues? 3 !ý To be honest with you, I 4 answered the Synergy survey probably the same as I 5 answered the INPO mid-cycle survey last week -- two 6 weeks ago. For me it didn't really change because the 7 letter was in between the two. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So it's going 9 to be individual based. 10 L Right. But that would be an 11 indication of doing if different if the synergy 12 survey, the INPO results show any drastic changes in 13 my mind. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do they ask a lot of 15 similar questions in both surveys, the Synergy survey 16 and the INPO survey? Are they going to the same kinds 17 of issues? 18 *I would say yes. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you really could 20 look at the two, before and after with the letter in 21 the middle and see what kind of results you're seeing 22 there? 23 ""it 2. I think as far as 24 communications, goal setting, how you're treated in 25 general, I think there's different parts of those two NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 surveys that would match up pretty good to see if 2 people have changed their thinking between Synergy and 3 this. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 5 Anything else, Scott? 6 MR. BARBER: No. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: r how about you? 8 Do you have anything else you would like to cover? 9 Any of the areas that we've explored or even haven't 10 gotten to yet. You see what we're interested in. If 11 there is something that we didn't touch on that you 12 want to put out there, now would be a good time except 13 for you've got about five minutes to go. 14 2f That's fine. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It's not really an 16 issue because we can reschedule something. In fact, 17 I have to on the other matter. I just wondered if you 18 had anything you wanted to add? 19 L- My head feels like this right 20 now. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You've had enough for 22 right now. Why don't we do this. Since I have to 23 meet you anyway, if we've gotten any thought processes 24 going in directions that you think we might need to 25 hear about or be interested in or are relevant, then NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 what I can do is follow up with you for the next 2 matter which I'm hoping will be tomorrow. I don't 3 know how you stand with that. 4 j1 I think we can do it 5 tomorrow. 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Then we can do 7 it tomorrow and we can add to it then. I'll let that 8 question stand then. 9 Okay. 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: If you do have 11 something to add, we'll go back on the record with it 12 at that time. 13 At this point, in the event that you don't 14 have anything to add, I have some closing questions 15 for you. Have I or any other NRC representative 16 offered you any promises of reward or threatened you 17 in any manner in exchange for your information today? 18 jsNo, you have not. 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you appeared 20 here freely and voluntarily? 21 *j Yes, I have. 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And it is 3:13 23 approximately and we'll go off the record. I have to 24 thank you for the substantial portion of your time 25 today. I appreciate that. Thank you. NEAL R. GROSS/ COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 - No problem. Thank you. 2 (Whereupon, at 3:13 p.m. the interview was 3 adjourned to reconvene March 3, 2004, at 1:34 p.m.) 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Today's date is March 5 3, 2004. The time is approximately 1:34 p.m. What 6 follows will be a continuation of the interview with 7 from February 26, where we left off 8 regarding the safety conscious work environment. 9 Where we left it was that you were going 10 to think about a few issues, possibly some names if 11 you could recall, and we would wrap it up at a later 12 date which is obviously now. What I think you had 13 indicated was that you had -- you thought of the 14 aname that we were talking about in 15 that time frame. Who is that? 16 j That is correct. That was 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 19 He was th. .. 20 And we also discussed one of the INC managers as part 21 of our discussion around r That gentleman's 22 name wass 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: 24 He was one 25 of the persons that was reassigned to after the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.corn

1 reorg. 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about 3 s reassigned to 4 5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: After the November 3? 6 Yes. So those were two 7 individuals we discussed by title but I could not 8 remember the names when we did the first interview. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: An 10 title? 11was 12 MO 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Then you said 14 you had another issue and it ties to our discussion 15 notification notifications and the process for 16 initiating and how they get responded to. I guess 17 what I'll let you do is let you put it in your own 18 words. We had a little prediscussion before we went 19 on the record that you did a look-up in the 20 notification system and you're seeing about 1,800 21 issues. 22 That is correct. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the concern that 24 you have particularly is that some of them -- they 25 have all been assessed but they are being treated in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 a lot of cases, I assume, as minor maintenance. They 2 are seen as minor maintenance and they are tagged to 3 preventive maintenance issues. There are some 4 instances where you're not supposed to exceed six 5 months associating a notification to a PM but they are 6 exceeding at some point. I think you said there was 7 a year. 8 jThat is correct. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Could you talk a 10 little bit about what you found there? 11 J Sure. The notification 12 process is used to identify concerns or equipment 13 deficiencies. We talked last time about the feedback 14 and people seeing their actions corrected. What I did 15 was I looked at a number of -- I looked over a time 16 period of the year 2003 to present to see how many 17 notifications were still open without work orders 18 assigned. 19 Typically what we'll do with corrective 20 maintenance is we'll sign the work order. 21 Notifications can be worked as minor maintenance. 22 Typically that's what the WIN team will do with the 23 bulk of their work. What I wanted to do was get a 24 sense of how many were out there that had not been 25 completed. P 11/*/ NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 By my estimation it appeared to be about 2 1,800 notifications currently outstanding from January 3 1st of 2003 that have either been staying with the WIN 4 team assigned to particular shops as minor maintenance 5 and the deficiency has not yet been corrected. From 6 an initiator's standpoint bringing up issues and not 7 seeing them resolved in that type of time frame might 8 be a little bit discouraging for people to continue to 9 identify new concerns. 10 Also on the preventative maintenance issue 11 is we do allow personnel to assign notifications to 12 PMs but this criteria that has to be met the PM is 13 supposed to be recoded as a corrective maintenance 14 item so we'll show them the corrective maintenance 15 backlog. For scheduling purposes people realize 16 there's some PM being corrected with that. 17 There's also like a time limit of six 18 months that the PM should be scheduled within six 19 months of the date of the notification. In cases 20 that's being exceeded. It's going out like a year 21 longer where the PM is scheduled to be done. That 22 deficiency now will sit there for maybe a year or two 23 years until that PM comes due. 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you had said that 25 some of these notifications apply to safety related NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 equipment. 7 2 k;;; Yes, I did see some on 3 diesels. Some minor repair work on diesels, governor 4 oil leaks. For example, they were assigned to the PM. 5 Some of those were granted. They are going to be 6 upgraded in a year. There was other examples of 7 safety-related equipment that I can't recall off the 8 top of my head right now but we can easily search and 9 find those. 10 The only other concern I have with that is 11 an initial event or identification the operability 12 screening. Say on like batteries there was one where 13 batteries had a low water level. Operators initially 14 screened that as operable because we were not below 15 the tech spec level on the battery. 16 However, if that condition has not been 17 corrected in a timely manner, the battery level could 18 drift below tech spec allowable and then the initial 19 assessment may not be correct anymore. I'm not sure 20 what time frame they are using being that it's going 21 in as a notification I expect it to be working short 22 term. I think operations are using that as part of 23 their operability basis. I don't know if there is 24 feedback to them that the condition may last longer 25 than a couple weeks. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is there any way that 2 something that carries with it an operability 3 screening or a potential tech spec issue would be 4 coded differently or are they all thrown into the same S pool for this maintenance? 6

They're in the same pool 7 right now. Once they are considered operable there's 8 no tech spec action tracking for that.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Even though it might 10 be something that could by the condition itself drift 11 below a tech spec level and become inoperable or 12 become out of tech spec? There's nothing that codes 13 it to say, "Hey, you better get to this one quicker." 14 I think in some cases 15 operations depending on what the condition is. If it 16 could potentially affect the operability it gets 17 tracked but I'm not sure if you write something up 18 today as operable they would not put that into the LCO 19 tracking. That is my recollection from what I've 20 seen. I don't know what their procedures requires 21 them to do. They have to put that into their LCO 22 tracking. 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 24 I'd have to follow up on 25 that. Al-~ 2 t5hat .N EAL R.G RO S S COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: These other issues 2 that you are seeing out there, these 1,800 that are 3 open from January of 2003, is there any other -- I 4 mean, this is the notifications process. It seems 5 that -- is that the only method? Is it possible that 6 these are being addressed in another way and you 7 wouldn't see that in what you were looking at? 8 JSomething like on the battery 9 levels we do quarterly or periodic checks on the 10 battery level so there is a possibility that a 11 subsequent check is on a quarterly battery 12 surveillance may once again identify that the battery 13 level is low and get it recovered and they may not 14 have gone back to a particular modification and closed 15 that out. 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Closed the 17 notification. If they discover that during a 18 quarterly check, would they fix it on the spot or 19 would they put in another notification? 20 f Write another notification. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. It's just that 22 there could be -- they wouldn't necessarily look up 23 the old one or close it out. You're saying they 24 wouldn't fix it. They might just make the 25 notification on it. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)

   . o 23-4433                 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701              www.nealrgross.com w

1 .jj On another example, there was 2 one notification written like in 2002 about a valve at 3 Salem that had some boron around the packing area. 4 That notification was closed saying that they cleaned 5 off the boron and could not see an active leak. They 6 evaluated the surrounding areas having no impact. 7 In 1993 that same valve was identified 8 again as having boron around the packing area. Again 9 it was cleaned. They said no active leak and no 10 further action required. Obviously after two you 11 would think that it is leaking and it's leaking small 12 enough that you don't see it while you're standing 13 there but there was no other corrective action. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: There's an active 15 leak somewhere. 16 9 There's an active leak 17 somewhere because the boron keeps showing up but I 18 don't know that we're tying all that together in these 19 notifications. They are getting closed out. There 20 may be adequate follow up so somebody may go back to 21 that valve in another inspection in a year and say 22 boron leak again. That would be the third time. They 23 might not write it up because they are seeing it for 24 the third time. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Unless the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 notification is in. 2 Right. 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 4 60 Now, understand that out of 5 that 1,800 I would say probably half of that 1,800 are 6 very minor issues, painting, insulation missing. 7 Things that you would not really be concerned about 8 from a reliability issue. 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. 10 J Probably of the remaining 11 half now you've got non-tech spec and safety related 12 equipment. I would say maybe 25 percent or 20 percent 13 of the remainder are safety related based on the 14 screening I did. 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So the way you look 16 at it maybe less than 200 or so? 17 Yeah. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Actually, it could be 19 a little more than 200 if I do my math correctly. It 20 would be a little over 200 probably if it's 25 percent 21 of the 900 safety related or on tech spec required 22 issues. In seeing that, do you know where to 23 attribute that breakdown on this? 24 Io. I talked to a few people 25 in work management about it that do the screening. I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 would be surprised if they even knew what the number 2 was like. They tell me they were aware that they had 3 a situation there where all these identifications may 4 not have been properly assigned and they are going 5 back through now trying to reassign them or re-review 6 them a second time; 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In other words, they 8 could have been -- if they weren't properly assigned 9 they didn't get to whoever was responsible for going 10 out and fixing it? 11i.j Or it wasn't coded to 12 corrective maintenance properly and given the right 13 priority. In other words, corrective maintenance 14 takes priority over planned or minor maintenance. I 15 get that they're aware of it but I asked if there was 16 anything written for a follow up and they believe 17 there may have been but they cannot identify any 18 particular notification or anything that identifies 19 this issue. I think the one on the PMs I'm going to 20 write the notification myself for us to relook at -- 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The time frames on 22 that? That they are exceeding the six months? 23 The time frames and they are 24 not coding them properly. If it were important that 25 we have 200 corrective maintenance items per unit, NEAL R. GROSSA COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1& 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 then there may be 250 or 300. Do you know what I'm 2 saying? 3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. 4 It could kind of influence 5 your decision about reliability issues if the 6 outstanding work is not covered properly. 7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that any part of 8 what the work management people that you talked were 9 doing in their -- going back to review them? Are they 10 going to be looking at that as well? 11 3I believe they are going to 12 be looking at that but I don't know how systematic. 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you're going to 14 follow it up with a notification. 15 I'll follow it up with a 16 notification. 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Anything else 18 on that? 19 Nothing on that issue, no. 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. What about 21 another issue? Is there anything you wanted to cover 22 from our last discussion on the 26th? 23 We can take a quick break. It's 24 approximately 1:49. 25 (Whereupon, at 1:49 p.m. off the record NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 until 1:59 p.m.) 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We are back on 3 the record. It's approximately 1:59 p.m. What we did 4 was go off the record because you questioned the 5 relevance of an issue that you might have discussed 6 and we decided that it is relevant. 7 It goes to the work environment and it was 8 prompted by our last week discussion regarding whether 9 or not you had ever felt that any reprisals for having 10 raised the safety concern. After having thought about 11 it you came up with this situation. I think you 12 present it as the only time is what you're telling me. 13 Correct. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I'll do a summary of 15 it. What you were saying is about a year to 18 months 16 ago in your oversight capacity for work management you 17 were involved with the maintenance crew and with a 18 particular job on a nonsafety related chiller in a 19 turbine building. 20 It was something that everything was lined 21 up. The people who were going to do the maintenance 22 were present. The parts and pieces were there and the 23 time was scheduled but, for whatever reason, this 24 maintenance superintendent expressed to you that he 25 couldn't take on that job. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com v

  .   °

1 It would be too much for him to handle on 2 that particular day. It was ceased but the next day 3 he noticed that they were working on this chiller and 4 you knew that the SRO authorizations hadn't been 5 conducted. It hadn't been reviewed appropriately. 6 Maybe you could put it better in your own words at 7 this point. 8 j What I had noticed is that 9 the work had not been properly authorized to begin by 10 the SRL. We did have the chiller tagged out and they 11 were aware of that but there is still a requirement 12 that the SRO authorizes the work to begin. 13 When I realized that some of the paperwork 14 was not in order and we did not have SRO 15 authorization, I called the maintenance crew and told 16 them that we needed to stop work until we got proper 17 authorization and got caught back up. 18 At this point or shortly thereafter the 19 engineer was responsible for the DCP implementation on 20 this chiller came over to my desk and started 21 screaming at me rather loudly about he was not pleased 22 with my performance on this and that I was holding up 23 work and it was affecting contractor fees and stuff 24 like that. Very loudly to the point where a lot of 25 people in the area heard this. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You work in an area 2 that is surrounded by numerous cubicles. 3 r. That is correct. 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So this was pretty 5 much aired in front .of anybody who was in earshot. 6 T Yeah. I would estimate maybe 7 20 people. Right after that I kept my cool and I 8 didn't say anything to him. We dispersed from my work 9 area. I talked to my own supervisor that day and I 10 told him that I was going to 12 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That was a 14 significant point in your discussion with the engineer 15 while-he wasyelling at you was you were discussing 16 your reasons why there was a hold up. 17 9 Correct. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you are looking at 19 it as anybody can interpret this is what you get for 20 raising the concern and doing the right thing. 21 MOr enforcing the safety 22 rules. I did talk t and 23 a couple of days later I did get an apology from the 24 engineer involved. It was a personal one-on-one type 25 thing. COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 I was satisfied myself that he was 2 sincere. The main reason why I'm telling you this is 3 because I think the of served 4 its purpose in this case and got the situation 5 rectified. I'm not sure that we shouldn't have gone 6 one step further and maybe expanded that and let other 7 people know in the area. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The apology was 9 personal just to you on that issue? 10 .*'Correct. 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you think maybe 12 there was more damage? 13 Could have been. 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Or perceived that 15 what happened to you could happen to somebody else if 16 you are slowing down the work. I. think your other 17 point on that situation was not only the positive 18 effect that DCP functioned and functioned well for you 19 was .what this individual was under in terms .of 20 production pressure, what caused them. You said you 21 actually thought he was losing it when he was yelling 22 at you. That gave you some concern, too. But you are 23 pointing out the kind of pressure he was under to get 24 the job done. 25 Yes. I think he may have -- NEAL R. GROSS) COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. A (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the financial pressures and limitations with the 2 contractor may have for the moment outweighed some of 3 the safety aspects of the job. That's what those guys 4 were getting pressed to do was to get the DCP 5 implemented in a specific time frame. I can 6 understand how he may have been impacted and what his 7 concerns were. 8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But in the end he was 9 understanding?

                    -10            ]-. Yes,   he was.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: More or less that he 12 was wrong is what he came and apologized for. 13 He did apologize and he 14 apologized especially because of the safety issues and 15 he lost focus on safety first. We did complete the 16 task on time, by the way. It did turn out to be a win 17 for everyone. 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Anything else 19 to add to that? 20 No. 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about any other 22 issues regarding the work environment? Anything else 23 that you wanted to cover? 24 WNot at this time. 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Then, again, NEAL R. GROSSA COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

I have to thank you for your time. It's 1~A 2. approximately 2:05 p.m. and we'll go off the record. 3 (Whereupon, at 2:05 p.m. the interview was 4 concluded.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 I. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of: Name of Proceeding: Interview of

l Docket Number: 1-2003-01F Location: Salem, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape (s) provided by the NRC.

Juq Hadle~-- Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com}}

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