ML20024E417

Sworn Testimony of R Messerly Re Const Qa/Qc

ML20024E417
Person / Time
Site:	Comanche Peak
Issue date:	06/18/1983
From:	Messerly R Citizens Association for Sound Energy
To:
Shared Package
ML20024E412	List: ML20024E411 ML20024E413 ML20024E415 ML20024E416 ML20024E417 ML20024E418 ML20024E419
References
NUDOCS 8308100389
Download: ML20024E417 (63)

Text

{{#Wiki_filter:- ,

                ~

e, i i 1 f as L-)' - ..pp. 1 IN THE MATTER OF: 2 SWORN STATEMENT OF ROBERT MESSERLY 3 4 5 . 6 7 PRESENT AT THE TAKING OF STATEMENT: MR. ROBERT MESSERLY, Witness; 8 MR. H. BROOKS GRIFFIH; 9, MR. RICH ARD K. HERR, Interrogators; MS. JU ANITA ELLIS

• MR. DAVID COGBURN, Court Reporter, O cn uphI .

14 SWORN ORAL STATEMENT IN QDESTION AND ANSWER 15 FORM of ROBERT MESSERLY, taken before David Cogburnc 16 a Court Reporter in and f or the State of Texas at 17 the United' States Federal Courthouse in the City 18 of Port Worth, County of Tarrant on the 14th day 19 of April, 1983 at 2:00 p.m., at which time the

                   '20        following proceedings were had:

21 22 23 gMY 8308100389 830503 gDRADOCK 05000445 PDR

                                ,      i 2
                                        -                                                                                                                     -'              .      i 1                                                                                             P RO CEED I NG S                             ,

2' MS. ELLIS: For the record, weshouldll 3 indicate that we have handed th'e NRC officials

                                                                                                                                   ~

4 an April 13 th letter f rom CASE. addressed to 5 Edward'Markey regarding this matter, and also a 6 copy of an affidavit of J .R. Dillingham, 7 D-i-1-1-i-n-g-h-a-a. And I believe Mr.' 8 Messerly has a copy of some documentation which 9 he will be providing also to the NRC. 10 MR. GRIFFIN: Anythi.ng else, Ms. 11 Ellis? i ( 12 E X AM IN AT I O N I 13 BY MR. GRIFFIN:  ; 14 Q Mr. Messerly, this investigation is being 15 taken pursuant to the rules of the Nuclear j 16 Regulatory. Commission and we are at the U.S. Federal 17 Courthouse, a part of the U.S. Attorney's Office, i i i 18 Room 524 in Fort Worth, Texas. This is Thursday, l 1 19 April the 14th, 1983 and we're commencing this, it 20 looks like, at 2:01 p.m. Present for the NRC.is i i 21 Richard K. Herr, the director of office of l 22 investigations and myself, E. Brooks Griffin. 23 I understand, Mr. Messerly, that you are a ; l 24 former employee of Brown & Root and were employed at 25 Comanche Peak Steam Electric S tation in Glen Rose, i e.,.s-,, .

  . . _ , , _ _ _ . _ _ . . . .         _  ,___.._._____._,.__...__._....._,._-.-_,___.-,,,__,____,,.m__,______._____.-_-._.                                                    . ____._ f

I I 1

 .O                                                                                 !

1 Texas. Is that correct? 2 A Yes I was, uh-huh ( af f irma tiv e) . I i 3 0 And present with you is Ms. Juanita j 4 Ellis. 5 , MR. GRIFFIN: Ms. Ellis, if I might 6 ask you, what is your role in relation to Mr. 7 Messerly?  ! t 8 MS. ELLIS: All righti Mr. Messerly { 9 is one of the individuals which we had planned 10 to call in hearings which have been postponed i 11' for the time being, at least, in the Comanche , 12 Peak operating license proceedings. i 13 MR. GRIFFIN: All right. And you arej 14 here in his behalf? l 15 . MS. ELLIS: Well, yes. He asked that, 16 I come and join him so that he would have 17 someone here that he falt comfortable with. He l 18 felt that he would feel a little more I 19 comf ortable with someone else here. 20 MR. GRIFFIN: Do you represent him in 2'1 .any way other other than just an associate or . I 22 in the manner you have already described? l 23 MS. ELLIS: In the hearings -- I'm. l 24 not an attorney first of all. In the hearings, 25 though I am CASE's primary representative and j i

        .I

                                                                                   ~

4 1 as such do what an attorney, I should say, , 2 would do f or CASE. And so to that extent I 3 guess sort of a quasi representative status. , 4 Q All right. Our purpose here today is to 5 ask Mr. Messerly questions.concerning an earlier 6 statement that I believe he made to you in which he l 7 identified a number of issues that are of concern to l i 8 the NRC, and we.would like to find out more specific 9 details about these issues. So my questions will be 10 directed to you, Mr. Nesserly. I 11 A Okay. ( 12 Q The first issue I would like to go into

13 is the use of a rebar' drill or a drill at Comanche 14 Peak that I believe you have indicated was'used, 1

15 that you used in your job and was also used to drill 16 through cement and rebar; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 0 Hould you mind telling me in more detail i 19 what this drill is? 20 .A Well, it's like it says. They call it a l 21 rebar eater, it's made by Drilco manufacturer who is 22 out of Miami, Florida and it's c -- well, they have l 23 a diamond tip on them or they have a real hard steel 24 tip on them that cuts 'through other steel, concrete, c 25 anything else that gets in its way. And they are c._,_.. ... . . : - - . - .---

r

          ,     i 5  I

() - 1 operated by anywhere'from a half to a three-quarter 2 horse electric motor.  ; i 3 Q Okay. And did you use this machine in 4 your capacity as an employee of Brown & Root?' 5 A Well, I was foreman over the crew tha.t 6 used this machine. 7 Q All right. Did the use of this machine 6 require documentation from -- 9 A It did. 10 Q -- from engineers? 11 A It did. ( 12 Q And -these were Brown & Root engineers?  ; 13 A Right. Not Brown & Root, they were Gibbs i 14 and E'iii. They are the ones that first started it i " 15 whhnthey first come on the job. i 16 Q All right. 17 A A guy named Dean Fellinger is the one if 18 you want his.namo. 19 Q Be was the one that issued -- 20 A He was the one that started out with me 21 on the rebar drilling, and later it changed into , 22 f o'u r t ee n dif f e r e nt people if you want to know the 23 truth about it. 24 Q What was his last name? 25 A Fellinger.- He is still with Gibbs and 4

                                                                                             ?

h f g p l @ gt , N277 P . D$MA "

                 ,        i I

1 Hill and he is out of the Dallas office now. 2 MS. ELLIS: I believe that's 3 F-e-1-1-i-n-g-e-r. I have seen his name. 4 THE WITNESS: Do you know who I'm 5 talking about? 6 Q During the time that members of your crew 7 used rebar eater, did they make sure they had this 8 documentation? 9 A Most of the time yes, but~there are times 10 that I was ordered by my superiors, a guy named Mike 11 Sanders, to order or go out the gate, as I stated in ( 12 my affidavit before. , f i 13 Q Are'ycu saying he asked you or told,you i 14 or ordered you to drill holes or use this drill in i i 15 the manner in which it was to be used without 16 documentation as required by procedure? , ! 17 A I am'saying that. l 18 Q How many instances did this occur? j 19 A I wouldn't -- I mean, just to give you a 20 number, I couldn't do it. Many times. i 21 Okay -- l l Q I 22 A As far as number, you're going to say 23 more than this or less than this, I can't give you a 3 24 number. I won't give you a number because I don't 25 have that much -- well, how can I say it, I'm Just O r* 4 .,9

r 7 nW 1 not there. The dril1 -- I was ordered to loan the. 2 drill out at times. I was ordered to loan a guy a 3 drill bit that he would go get a motor, a drill 4 motor out of the tool room and I'd never see these 5 three, f o u r ', five, six bits again. Now, how many 6 holes were drill.ed with it there's no telling how 7 much rebar was cut. 8 A man comes up and says, I want you to 9 give so and so six drills, he's got a pipe hanger 10 that has to go down or a cable tray that has to go 11 down - a cable tray support - and we have got three () 12 13 holes in it and we need the f ourth one bad. went to my general foreman at.that time who was Pete , And I 14 Mason, and I told Pete, I'said Pete, Mike keeps l 15 giving me these orders to get-this drill out, loan l 16 it out to drill holen that are not authorized. I 17 haven't got the paperwork from Dean Fellinger. I 18 said, what can I do? He said, man, he's my boss, 19 what do you want me to do? 20 Q Do.you know for sure that the people that 21 you loaned this drill to did not acquire the l l 22 documentation that they needed to stay within l 23 procedure and use this drill? 24 A I'm positive they did not get the 25 procedure, because any time the procedure paperwork

                    .                                                                                                                 i t
                    .                                       n . .. ,                 ..   ..              -

                      , .     ,                                                                                                                                                                              I l

8 1 came through it came directly to me from Dean 2 Fellinger and I handed it to my men and seen that 3 th'e job was done. Because there were areas out 4 there that there was -- strictly was illegal at all 5 to' drill any kind of'rebar or cut any kind cf rebar, 6 Re ctor One was one of them. No rebar of any kind 7 was allowed to be cut in that building anywhere. 8 Q Is thir. the containment building? 9 A Containment building, naactor One. 10 0 What the NRC would like to know in this . 11 instance is the specific locations where holes were , () 12 dr$11ed without proper documentation. Is there any j i

                           ,    13 vay that this information or these locations can be 14 4etermined, reconstructed or anyplace we can go, 15 anybody we can go talk to to find out specific 16 locations?

17 A Let's see, Danny Brown borrowed it 18 several times to drill holes. He's still working 19 out there. Other than getting ahold of Mike 20 Sanders, Danny Brown is the only one I can think of. 21 And.as far as sitting here and telling you 22 locations, evidently you haven't been out to that 23 plant.

                           . 24                                     Q    I have, yes.

25 A Well, I had access to every building on D4aa #Cf' S P A nl av . fi n e r i e 7

e t o ('b) s: l 1 that place. I have been in every building. I have . 2 cut rebar in every building but containment one,  ! 3 except the dam. Now, does that tell you anything? I 4 Now, to go tell you to go to a certain wall and see 5 . if the rebar is cut is impossible. 6 Q You understand what we're trying to do 7 with the information. We're trying to find out

                 '8     specific locations --

9 A Right.

10 Q -- so that we can verify what you're l 11 3 saying. Let me ask you, in your statement that you ( 12 made to Ms. Ellis, you identified a diary that you 13 have kept and in :his diary -- At's my understand;ng i 14 in this dia ry ycu logged in ins $ances or times when 1

                                                         ...                . .                                                   I j                15      this rebar eater was used to drill holes when you 16      did not have the proper documentation; is that 17      correct?

18 A No. This i s --

      ,         19            Q       Was this just a work --

20 A This goes from 9-7-78 to 10-17-7 9. This 21 was the period in which I was in charge of the rebar 22 eater. 'And this- documentation, there's some of them - l 23 most of them have documentation. It also has the l 24 CMC number, and like at the beginning it was a DCDDA O 25 or something. I got it wrote on there someplace,

       .2 c    .. , .    . . . .                  -

l

m

     . i                                                                     ,

10 O . i 1 DCDDA is what they started drilling rebar with. 2 Then they find out thiszwas not the right 3 documentation. Then they changed it to a CMC, but 4 when they first got it they were doing it on 5 three-part memos. . 6 0 But -- 7 A And'this is every hole that I drilled, 8 legal and illegal, and except for the ones where my 9 equipment -- I was ordered to loan my equipment out. < 10 Q All right. 11 MU. ELLIS: Just f or the record, we , ( 12 probably should mention that Mr. Messerly is

       . 12      ref erring to a -- looks like a twenty-four pagel i

14 ljating which he had prepar.ed of these l 15 different items and he will be giving that to 16 you. 17 Q Is this a complete rendering of this 18 diary --  ; 19 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 20 Q S o -- 21 A It is in complete form. 22 HR. HERR: Is it marked? You'said 23 legal and illegal. Have you got the illegal 1 24 stuff m'arked on it? 25 THE WITNESS: No, I really haven't

                                        **...t       -     - . . .-.-

C=% ni e.. ,

        )                                                                                                                .

1 but if it doesn't -- it's going to have to be. 2 interpreted by me, which I'll try to explain to 3 you or I can tear off a page and y'all can loox 4 at a page -- l 8 5 { MR. HERR: Perhaps take a blue pen or 6  ! a red pen and we'll mark the illegal stuff. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I won't do that. I l 8 can't do that because I didn't keep that much ! 9 of it. I mean, you can take a look and flip , i 10 through it to see what,it's talking about. I i i l 11 didn't do that -- as far as that, if I had kept, 12 that ki nd sf . a record, it would have been a ' ( (/~\_) 13 separata record or something like that.  !< 14 0 Would any of these entries in thia i 15 document lead us to the locations of where holes l 16 were drilled without authorization?  ; l 17 A It's very possible. It is very possible.I 18 MS. ELLIS: If I can call your ( , 19 attention to this third column here, it says 20 "rebar cut" -- it's upside down. But,in this l 21 column, this is where specific rebar was cut I 22 apparently and --  : 23' THE WITNESS: Yeah, what I did was, I 24 marked down -- this was my own deal and my own l ! O. 25 idea, because there were certain areas that you

I l' 1 were supposed to take out a percentage of the, 2 rebar. If'you cut a hole in the rebar it 3 should have been reported and thus and so 4 , forth. 5 0 In th.ose ' ins ta nce.s , did you report it? 6 A Yes, I'm legal. So is this thing. 7 Q Okay. 8 A ButLit gives the direction of the rebar,

                 ,,                            9                         which way it was running, north, south, east, west.

10 It gives the depth that I, cut the reber and it also 11 giv es- the percentage of rebar, jur.t na looking at a () 12 13 piece of rebar end saying I cut lifty percent, ten

percent or if 1 just nicked it, j.u s t whatever after 14 the hole was drilled.

15 Q But on each of those entries, does it 16 tell the location on the site out there? 17 A It tells you the. location, what building, 18 what print number it was taken off of or the hanger 19 number itself. So all you got to do is look up that 20 hanger. number and it will give you the area..and 21 exact location.of this particular hanger. 1 22 Q All right. So any -- which column shows 23 the authorization? 24 A This one here. 25 Q Okay. So if that column is left blank,

                                                                                                              ~ _ . ,      .    .
          .-..,.,......,,..,--,.--.,,,__,.,....._,-,,.,,-,.,.,n__.---,.._,--,n_-,___,,,-,-..,,.__.,._--._,..,

i s . 13 O,A - I then that would be an example? , 2 A Not necessarily blank. I don't know how 3 in the hell to put that without sounding silly'. 4 Q We are going to need to identify -- we're 5 not interested in the ones that were done properly. 6 We're only '-- we want to look at the ones that were 7 done without documentation as required.by procedure. 8 MS. ELLIS: We're referring to the 9 fif th column now on the far right. 10 A N o, there's.really not no way of telling, 11 not without looking up the hanger number and find O 12' out what was done on the hanger. You will just have

g j 13 to go over each individual hanger and check the CMC and see'w$at was legal to cut and what was not legal 14 l

15 to cut. 16 MS. ELLIS: You might mention, too, 17 in this column the ones on the front page all 18 seem to have items by them, but on several of j 19 them throughout the listing there were none. 20 So it's not -- each one of these items, in l 21 other words, doesn't have rebar cut l l 22 necessarily. It's just as indicated on there. l 23 Q At this point I was just trying to limit l 24 it to holes drilled without proper authorization, 25 regardless of whether rebar was cut or just

e. ... . ,

     ,.---n

                                                                                .l
              -                                                                   1 I

1 concrete. If the drill was'used improperly, we're J 2 trying to identify those instances. 3 Can you think of any way with this 4 document or any other documents you may know exist 5 that would lead.NRC inspectors to specific locations 6 where holes were drilled without proper  ! 7 ' authorization? Do you see what we're trying to get? 8 A I see exactly what you're trying to do. l 9 You're trying to make your job real easy and there's 10 no easy way way to do it. I'm serious as hell 11 there 8s just no easy way to go to it because you I ) 12 have so many things out there that's been like this,i 13 and for me to pinpoint and give you an exact area by 14 this or any other means -- I might be able to walk 15 out there and show you things if I walk with you andl 16 say, this was done here and this was done here. But ' 17 you ' re asking me to remember back three, four years,

                              ~

18 too, and if you have ever been in that area, if you  ; i 19 go in there a week later it's all different.  !, 20 Q I understand what you're saying. Can you 21 think of any way that I can transmit this 22 inf ormation to an inspector or to a group of 23 inspectors where we might be able to identify these? 24 You're right, we are trying to make it easier in 25 that_we can't reinspect all the holes drilled at

15 1 Comanche Peak since its beginning, since the l 2 foundation was poured. 3 A This rebar didn't come in until this date; 4 here. , 5 Q In other words, we want to address this 6 potential problem. 7 A I can't think of the guy's name. There's! l 8 one area down in the tunnel what they call the 9 tunnel area, and he was foreman over it when he 10 borrowed that drill. He c,u t a bunch of rebar down 11 in there and it would be a damn good place to start. ! ' ( 12 0 If *e talked to this man, do you think he i 13 would be.willing to tell us? l' 14 A I can't think of his name. Yeah, I do.  ! I 15 I really do. I'm trying to think of his name; I i 16 can't think of it. f 17 0 If you cannot remember his name today } i 18 would you mind giving us that name when you do  !

                 ,              19   rebember it?
                             - 20                      A                                   He's still working out there.                                                              He got       ;

21 figed and he was -- he went into the pipe department l l ' 22 a t: Green Hat now. He's a welder. I I i 23 l Q~ Do you think you wil1 remember the'name l l 24 eventually?  ! O 25 A If I don't I've got it at home I would l 1 g r a n t e.. ft,,,4- ni-- * * ' **'"

       . , _ _ . . _ . _ _         . - . . _ _ , _ _   _ ____ _ __ . .___ _.._....- ..._ , _ _.                         ._______. _.... _ ---__..__,,..._.__ ___..~._..

e 16 1 call you, but he might testify. And if you could ,

                .2 get ahold of a Richard Montjar (phonetic), he'was a 3 man --

4 MS. ELLIS: Do you know how to spell 5 that? , 6 A M-o-n-t, something like that. It's 7 pronounced Montjar, but he's in Germany now, 1811 8 tell you that much. l 9 Q Now? 10 A Yes. Well,- he married a girl in the 11 service is the only reason -- well, he was a year () 12

            ' 13 ago. He might te back ov e r he r-e , now but he's married to a gir1 in the service..

14 Q Okay. l 15 A But he worked and drilled a lot of holes 16 illegally. 17 Q Now, these illegal holes that you are 18 referring to that he drilled, this was when the 19 rebar was, or the rebar eater was on loan? 20 A No, he worked for me. But he was also 21 around and could be a character witness to what I am 22 stating as to when I was ordered to do this. And if 23 you could pin that Danny Grisso (phonetic) down, 24 Danny Grisso used to work for me, too. And if you 25 put him on a stand and square him in, he will either rso m % * * ** '

I

   .   ..            .         1                                                                                                                                                        ,

i

 /Tb

'\- l' l

                                                                                                                                                                                '       l 1                perjure himself or tell you about holes he drilled                                                                                      ,      ,

2 when he was working f or me and now he is in charge 3 of that operation. . 4 If you could pin him down, but that 5 company has got him sewed down tight. He's a 6 puppet. , i 7 Q First of all, let me tell you, I'm not an{ i 8 engineer. I have an engineering or technical j 9 background, but let me see if I can phrase this. l 1 10 In the holes that were drilled by your , 11 crew members without proper documentation, can you i () 12 13 remember any instances or did you witness any instances where damage was done to containment or

                                                                                                                                      ~

14 any of these other areas' whefe the" drill was used 15 that would' constitute a safety or health hazard or i 16 possible weakening of the structure? 17 A Well -- 18 Q I know that's detailed. 19 A I'm not an engineer either. I have been 20 in steel, I have been in supervision, I have been , 21 out there working. And when an engineer designs f 22 something, he designs it for that particular thing,  ! 23 for that particular strength. All right. If l 24 somebody comes in ther.e and cuts part of that out  ; 25 without documentation, there's your answer.

                                                                                                                                                 ~

But I'm p . = j

1 not an engineer. 2 0 So you're saying, if I understand you 3 correctly, you're saying that if it's done, then who 4 knows what the effect will'be? 5 A Hell, the engineer knows, the engineer 6 that designed it. If he puts in fourteen rebars 7 .there and you cut out seven of them, then you have 8 weakened half of them, what he designed it to hold. 9 And I have went down walls in that pariicular tunnel 10 that I was talking about and we were putting up to 11 hold thirty-two inche lines down there. I wasn't, l 12 this guy was if I could think of his name. And we l 13 had to rut a b.unch of rebar down ln there. 14 This was, I'm -- well,. quote me if you 15 want to, I think, I'm not sure, but I think this was 16 an area'that wasn't supposed to have any rebar cut 17 out of it. 18 Q All right. Let me ask you one more time 1 l 19 because you have accused me of looking f or the easy 20 way. I would like to be able to walk out of this 21 room today and go find examples or instances of 22 holes drilled down there without proper 23 authorization. I hope there's some way we can i 24 figure out how that can be done because we would 25 like to follow up on this. 1 Sta nl av . 'l a r r i c . D4"a 7'l ACC7

l . s g.s 19 0

• i 1 A If I could just think of one exact hole '

2 that I could remember. I know of three on the 3 tu r bi ne deck, but I'll be damned if I can remember , I 4 what area. There's another deal where I would have ' 5- to go out and it's completely chang.ed over now, and 6 it would beca spot check between three or four 7 hangers. i 8 Q All right. { 9 A In fact, out of the three or four, I ' l 10 think you will find a H il ti-b ol t welded on the back l 11 side because they couldn't get a hole i n the ground.l 12 0 .What would it take to refresh your memory 13 as to a possibis location? I i 14 A I have no idea. The documents you could i get Es -- now , this would be Turbine One area which 15 I 16 wo'ld u cut it down quite a bit. It's around them 17 tanks that they covered with the aluminum siding and 18 insulation. I don't know what tanks, what they are I

    ,'     19     c a,11 e d , them big long tanks up on the turbine deck.

i , 20 An'd it was right alongside one of them tanks there i l 21 that three holes rebar was cut in without i 22 documentation. I 23 Q Was there anybody else present that might!

                                                                                                                       ,  l 24    be able to further identify, help us identify this                                                   '
                                                                                                                         )

O. 25 location? l l l

                                                                                                                       \

w<,--<

                                                      ,,,-,-----m,,e-    y yw,,y q --,---e w      w_,,w,  , -        w-

     ~
             ~

g 20 s1 . 1 A There was Richard Montjar. I should have 2 brought my time books with me. I'm not really sure 3 if Danny Grisso was there or not. 4 0 Is it your personal belief that Gr'isso 5 could identify locations? i 6 A Yeah, I think he could, but I doubt 1.f 7 you will get him to do it. ' 8 Q Ja he still employed cy them? 9 A Yes, he's very much employed. 1,0 Q All right. Well, I'll tell you, let's I 11 move on. We have got several other -- D) (_ 12 WS. ELLIS: Perhaps if you had Mr. , 13 Grisso appear under these circumstances, you 14 know, sworm with a stenographer and so f orth, 15 maybe it might enable him to say things that he i 16 might not feel comfortable saying not under 17 oath. 18 A 2 seriously think Danny would. I have 19 known Danny for quite a few years. I went through a 20 divor ce with him and everything else when he was 2'1 wor king f or me. But right now that company has got 22 him bought and paid for. 23 0 I can assure you the NRC is not bashful 24 about going and asking, so we will -- 25 MR. HERR: I have one question I a .

           -       ,m-   = . - - + - , - - - -       -w y-y --,.,     .w ----.,#----i,,----,---            -.  .%- - - - - . . - ,    ,,e-   .,-,c-    - . - - .   ---r-- .-,,

j. 21 l 1 would like'to ask. Did you see any of these , 2 people using the drill improperly? I know you 3 said 3 ou loaned them the drill out, but did you 4 ever see them use it? 5 , THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. 6 MR. HERR And that was during the 7 time frame -- S THE WITNESS: That was during this 9 l time frame that this covers. 10 MR. HERR: Okay. That's the only  ! 11 question I have. () 12 13 Q Will that document that you are providing us, will examination of this document, say, by an 14 engineer, would it lead to any locations where such 15 holes were drilled? Seems this fifth columns seems 16 to be filled in. 17 A What I would do if I was you, I would go 18 pull these CMC's and DCDDA all through it with an 19 e n gi ne e r , bump it against the number of the hanger

20. and see what was authorized to cut and what was not 21 authorized to cut, and then come back and bump it l

l 22 against this, like a hundred percent cut out and if l 23 that was really legal in that area to cut out a 24 hundred percent. 25 Q Do you think, then, a random sampling r...,

p 22 ; 1 done like that is going to reveal instances of holen 2 cut without authorization? l t 3 A Dh-huh (affirmative). I really do. i 4 MS. ELLIS: It would seem to me on 5 that third column there where it shows the , 6 amount that was cut out, that it would be 7 prudent at least to check all the ones where it S says a hundred percent or maybe as much as 9 fifty percent have been cut out. 10 A Because the way I understand tnat, on the' 11 first part, all this -- these DCDDA's and all that  ; ( 12 and-the three parts were all illegal. 13 Q You :mean where it says .DCDDA? , 14 A Yes.

                            ~ '

15 0 Those are illegal cuts? l 16 A At the beginning they were, and then they 17 changed it to a CMC, Now, if they went back and 18 covered their butts on that DCDDA I don't know. 19 Q If we checked all the ones that -- the 20 DCDDA and checked that number it might lead us to 21 locations? 22 A I would try that first and find out if 23 this was a legal document, because according to Dean 24 Fellinger the engineer, that was all wrong until he

     /        25    come up with the CMC -- talk Bob -- CMC idea that

                    ~
            .a l

2~' O . I had to be wrote by a specific engineer. , 2 Q As I flip through here, I only see that 3 DCDDA recorded twice. Are some of these other items

    .                   4   also that type of number?

5 A All right. Here's one that was wrote on 6 an RFIC. That was illegal, too. And a DCDDA -- 7 Ms. ELLIS: Are all of these numeets 8 here, are those all -- i 9 THE WITNESS: TheycouldbeCMC' sand l . l 10 they could be DCDDA's. I'm not real sure about 1 11 which they were. God, that's been, '787 ' 12 Q Rig trt . 13 A I really need to sit down -- 1 haven't- i i i 14 looked at thi-s other than a couple of days ago ainer i 15 I have been out of it, and I could probably sit down 16 with somebodv, and be glad to, to try to more or  ! 17 less interpret exactly how it was wrote and what it I i j 18 is. l l 19 Q Okay. We would greatly appreciate that. 20 A I would. I will; I'll be glad to do it. 21 MR. GRIFFIN: Do you have any more 22 questions, Dick?  ; 23 MR. HERR: N o. 24 Q Tell me now, you say, if I understand 25 correctly that this unauthorized use of this rebar l i Stanlev, Harrin. Rica 7A'-4EK'

t i

                       ,1       eater, is it true you were threatened with 2    termination if you f ailed to loan it out                                                              --

3 A If I failed to do anything that this man 4 said as far as that rebar eater loan-out or drill 5 bits or the'whole operation or failed-to drill 6 something myself and my crew, I was told that I 7 would be terminated if I didn't do it. 8 O Tell me what his name is again. 9 A Mike Sanderr.. You have to understand out 10 there eractly what the deal was. At that time Hal 11 Goodson was the superintendent. Mike Sanders was, I () 12 13 guesa, twenty-six, twenty-seven years old and had never done any sind cf work like that in hie lif e c 14 ' and he was right underneath Ha1.Goodson as a 15 three-stripe general foreman. And Hal Goodson had 16 one thing out of his mouth, and that.was production. 17 He didn't come out and say it, but he didn't give a 18 damn how you got it --

             .            19            Q                             Okay.

20 A -- as long as it showed up on paper. He 21 wanted production, he wanted pipe hangers up, he 22 wanted cable tray supports up and he wanted them on 23 the wall and completed and bought off. He didn't 24 give a damn how they were put up, and this is what 25 Mike Sanders did. And in doing so, if they ran intoj c..., ,...4 . -:-. -- ---

25

     )                                                                 .

I 1 a problem, you've got to to f.igure some holes were. 2 drilled, a hundred and something holes f or one 3 hanger to try.and find a decent spot to hang it 4 without hitting rebar. This brings on frustration 5 on the men, they go to their foreman, the foreman 6 goes to Mike Sanders, Mike Sanders says go down and 7 see Messerly and drill the damn thing and put it up. 8 Q I understand. Let's move on. You stated 9 in your affidavit to CASE that you observed or 10 witnessed the use of the polar (phonetic) crane to 11 pull up a piece of thirty-two inch pipn; is that ()

12. correct?

f l , 13 A That is absolutely cc Tect. 14 Q I'm mot an engineer; 2 don 3 t understand 15 the significance of this. Could you explain it to 16 me, please?  ! 17 A All right. What it amounts to is the 18 main steam pipe has a condensation joint like for -- 19 expansion joint is what it's called. It's a huge 20 horseshoe type shape, and this thing is coming out 21 of the turbine building. All right. Thia 22 thi'rty-two inch main steam pipe, it's coming out -- 23 it's anchored in concrete all the way around it, 24 it's a fixed object, you can't move it, right? It O' 25 comes into this expension joint, makes huge

I 26 l O -  : 1 horseshoe shape and it goes down into each one of , 2 the steam generators, which there's four of them, in 3 the containment building. 4 It was, attached through the wall and it 5 was also attached to the steam generator in the 6 compartment inside the containment building.. 7 Somebody come along after these pipes had been in

!                          8         there, because somebody else was hollering,                                                                                                  '

9 production, production, production, and found out 10 that the main stece line was six inches off of 11 location on the vertical v3y and f our inches on the

  /~

12 horizontal way off of location. There isa guy --  :

                             )

13 THE WITNESS

What was that. guy's l l

l 14 name? Have I got his name down there? 15 MS. ELL IS : 1 dcn't think you have 16 got a name in here. l 17 A I'm hell on names today, ain't I? But I i 18 what this gold hat d.id was ordered his people to I

              ;          19          raise it, up with the polar crane.                                                      I can't remember 20          the exact tonnage that was put'on this because they 21          had a big gauge on it that showed tonnage when you                                                                                 ;

22 pull on it. A big round gauge looks like big clock, 23 .and whatever tonnage -- seemed like to me it was , 24 eighty-five tons, it was ungodly because everybody O,.- 25 scattered when they seen that needle going up as the qy,,3e., n,,et. n: -- ~ o' *"*~

       -. --,   -. +-,-+              ,,                   , , , - . , . , , , , - , , - . my,,,.,.,,.,m,-.y., , .
                                                                                                                                   -,--cy, .
                                                                                                                                             .,,,g-.*     y-,   ,w,-      , - - -

l

                    .       .         !                                                                                                                                                    l s

27  ;

 -)                                                                                                                                                                            i
                                                                                                                                                                                            \

l 1 crane was pulling on it. The reason I know this for 2- a fact is because I was pipe hanger f oreman at that 3 time between 860 and 905 elevation in th'e , 4 containment building. I had all of main steam and 5 all of fourteen-inch feedwater lines that run all , 6 through that area.

             ,                  7                   O                            Supporte for them?

8 A I had all the pipe supports. And I.had , 9 to undo my pipe supports, let him pull this up, P.e x IO Broom, which is.a guy about -- I don't know, if you i 11 seen him you.would thinx he's eight .r oo t tall, but  ;

       )                   12             ,

he's only about seven feet tall and Zour foot wide, 13 28m seriuus, Look him up cut there, you will ~~ 14 he's got a head en him that big around. ' i 15 Be wss on three tons come-alongs pulling , 16 the horizontal way. And they put it into position 17 and once they got into position, I had to go back 18 and change my pipe support dimensions.and hold that  ! 19 thing in position. When they cut the temporary

                          ~

20 hookup that they had welded to the steam generator i 21 loose, it flopped like fourteen inches and echoed I 22 through that whole containment building. i I 23 Q So you're saying they put this complete 24 pipe under tension in this movement?

     ^

25 A (Nods head affirmatively).  ; i

               ,m-,-,,---     ------e   ,
                                             ,      ,   ,----.----.----------,-,------we-,,.w----,,,,,n-gwwms,---                s. e p me ,,e---e,  e-,, w- n m  w -m,-wm e ,          ,-

l i r%g g 28 L-) - 1 0 And it was secured into the wall on one, ( 2 end and temporarily unsecured to the steam 3 generators? l 4 A It was temporarily secured, welded to the 5 steam generators with temporary pipe. It's a 6 thirty-two inch line that goes into the steam l' 7 generators. 8 Q So the pipe was attached at both ends and l 9 the center portion or some portion in between the 10 two ends - -- 11 A The expansi~on chambers is where they () 12 13 moved the pipe 4t. - , 0 And thriy were -- thi:s is a complete unit, 14 so it was put ander tension; 1s that what y'ou*re i 15 saying? 16 A Yeah. i . 17 0 And then you put in the supports to hold 18 it in that position?

      \

19 A The supports were already there. In i 20 fact, several of my supports could not be used no

              ~21      longer, that's how far they moved the pipe because I j              22      was allowed so many degrees for my pipe hangers to 23      be off of dead center of that thirty-two inch main 24      steam pipe.      And when they moved it with these            l 25      come-alongs, and the overhead crane -- several of my 4

I i ' i 29 em. I (_) - l i I pipe hangers had to be completely removed and i l 2 started over again and redesign,ed to move over to I i 3 the center of the pipe. They moved it six inches l 4 horizontally or six inches -- damn it -- six inches 5 up vertically and four inches h.orizontally. 6 Q And yet the ends remained in the same

               ,                     7                    place?

8 A (Nods head affirmatively). . 9 Q Today would that same -- would it be in 10 the same condition as far ac you knew it wat when it 11 wan -- when your supporte were put back in place, or j () 12 reconnected or -- 13 A What do you mean, the same position? 14 0 In other words, is it still under 15 tension? 16 A I would say yeah. Because I know they 17 did -- well, they moved from where it was welded to i 18 the steam generator with the temporary pipe. I 19 would imagine now that they have the thirty-two inch 20 pipe going down after they got it on its last 21 location, that they have got permanent pipe in there 22 now, which would still put where it comes through 23 the wall in the same bind that it was originally 24 when they.done it. 25 0 When did this occur? Do you remember j a . .

,( } 1 what year? 2 A Bad to be right before I got fired, in 3 that summer I.'s pretty sure. 4 Q Summer of what? i 5 A '882. I 6 Q Summer of 8827

                 .                                                                                                                                         l 7          A        Might have been earlier than that.                                                                                 I 8          Q        From the way you described it., sounds                                                                             l<

9 like everybody knew this was taking place? i 20 A Hell, yes, anybody that was in the  ! l 11 < ceactor. My general foreman, Ed Dean told me to get' ' l'~ y)r 12 .my people and met the hel.1 out of 860 and go

                                                                                                                                                            !       4 13     someplace and idde until that idiot got done.

14 Q Was t.h.ere an engineer in charge? 15 A Hell, no, there wasn't no engineer up 16 there. It was just that stupid gold hat that they 17 got up there that they call the pipe fitters. 'A ' 18 good friend of mine got fired -- what the hell was  ! 19 his name -- he got fired once because of his -- I 20 , MR. HERR: What's his name, the gold  : i 21 hat? I 22 THE WITNESS: Damn, I can't remember l I 23 his name either. I should brought my paper; I i 25 MR. HERR Was he the guy in charge n e n

i 31 l [ 's y .

                                                .                                         -l 1         of moving this thing, the gold hat?                ,

2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 3 MR. BERR Is there any documentation 4 on that? 5 .THE WITNESS: To'my knowledge, no. I 6 knew the foreman real well. Don't ask me his 7 name. All of a sudden names escape me. I got B his name at home, too. 9 ' Q Xou may not know the answer to this 10 question, but just for my information, is it  ; I 11 possible f or all these people to be involved in what-( 12 sounded like a major operation and management all 13 1 through the company not know that this event was 14 taking place, including the engi~neers that would 15 have -- might have an opinion on any kind of 16 movement of such a large piece of material? I'm 17 just asking your opinion. 18 A I want to give my opinion, but I want to 19 try and explain something to you. ~It's very 20 possible, because you got no communication out there 21 between the crafts. You have a pipe engineer -- say- , 22 you're a pipe engineer and I am a cable tray i 23 engineer and so forth.and so on down, just name any 24 branch in there. We're sitting across from each 25 other in the same office, but we don't tell each I

1 pm .

                                                                                                                                                                             ~2 O                                                                                        -

1 other a damn thing. We don't talk to each other . j 2 about coffee and yes, it was possible because your  ! 3 management out there, your upper management controls 4 the place. If they want to do it, all they have to 5 do is say, do it. Well, we haven't.got the correct 6 paper works. I don't give a dann, I said do it. ' 7 Now, what choice have you got? You're out 8 there trying to make a buck and feed a family. You 9 ain't got no choice and most of your upper 10 supervision out'there at that particular time, they  ; 11 5 were all h clique that osme up fron North _ Carolina ,/~% ) () 12 and all buddy-buddies, and most'of the upper ! 13 , supervision -- how in the hall :I ever got to.be a l l 14 superv14or out .there 3 Jon't kscw because I don't 15 know anybody and I ain't got no. kin out there, but 16 that's what all your upper supervision was, and 17 ninety percent of your foremen out there are the 18 same way. ! 19 Q I noticed that at one place in your 20 affidavit here -- moving on to a different subject 21 now -- you talk about the fact that you reinstalled 22 hangers on the feedwater system? 23 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 24 Q This was, I guess, what, a major rework i 25 project?

          - - . - - - - ,         , ,.-, ,   -.-,n   - - - , , - -

n---- - - - - - - - - - - - - . - - - , - - - - - , - - - - - - -,--..,-1 ..mn . . - - - - , - a , - - - -

sg 33  ! 1 A I would call it a maj or rework. Iwish.I! 2 had-them books. I would like to show you how many 3 times I rebuilt hangers out there. 4 Q The same hangers? 5 A same hangers over and over and over 6 again.

        ,       7          0     I've only got one question on this.        You 8 say you worked at that for a long time.           Was the 9 work done by your crew done properly as far at you                  '

10 know? ' l 11 A Yes, air. It was done exactly right,  !

   )          12  bought off by DC and everybody else and somebody 13  came through the:e and said, hey, they have been 14  rsdesigned w rong, let's tear then down and. redo                   ;

l 15 them. And as-far as 1 know on December 7th, '82 16 when I left there they-were s till working on 17 feedwater lines and I had them all completed on the 18 big feedwater that floods that whole containment 19 area. 1 20 . 0 A different subject again. I notice in El your report that you make reference to notice to 22 employees. This is a notice -- I believe it's g 23 called a form three NRC document? 24 A Yes. Y 25 MS. ELLIS: That's a two-folding Stanley, Harris, Rice 741-4567

34

 -)

• 1 deal. -

2 0 While you were employed at comanche Peak,. i 3 did you see any of these documents posted? c I 4 A Never. In the four and a half, five 5 years I was out there, never did I see one on any of 6 the bulletin boards, and I had access to that whole 7 plant. - I i 5 0 All right. If there had been one, do you S think you would have noticed it? 10 A Yeah, because I was always looking f or a 11 deal. I read every pamphlet on all the bulletin i

       )                 12             boa rds when I ein't got nothing-else to do.
                 .       13                        0                        And what time period --- remind me, what                                                                            !   ,

i . 14 time pcTiod weis you employen out there? 15 A Prom February of '77 until December the 16 7 th of 882 -- or '78, I think. Well, in February of l 1  ! 17 883 I would have been out there five years.  ; i 18 Q All right. i 19 A And a f oreman f our years and -- little { 20 o v.e r f ou r . yea rs , or right at four years. I got

                         '21            f oreman in June, I went to work in February.                                                                        I~made'                              ,

22 foreman and supervisor in June and I was fired in 23 June, so right at four years I was supervisor out. 24 there. 25 Q Okay. I want to ask you about the use of I - - . , - . - _ . m.-___ . , - - - - . . - _ _ - _ - -. ._. . ..-._ __,___._. .-,. _.... - -- - _ , _ . _ - - , _ . . _ - - - , . _ . . . . -

l . - 35 ls -s/ s l i l 1 a cutting torch on hangers. I don't personally l 2 know, is it improper to use a cutting torch to tear

              .                    3   down or alter a hanger?

4 A Not to tear down and alter, but it's 5 illegal to use it in the containment. building where-1 6 I was the entire supervision, when I was hanging 3

                     ,              7   pipe supports.                                               You drill everything and everything 8    has to go.on the wall according to the drill size.

9 I tock down a hanger -- took down several hangers l 10 that was put up by this general foreman out there 11 that I tried to fire.

          )                    12                           Q         Whirt one is this?                                            ._.

13 A Oh, ioy. =

14 0 Was it your ganaral foreman?

15 A N o, he wasn't my general foreman. He 16 worked f or me. I tried to fire him while he was 17 wor king f or me. 18 Q You were a foreman? 19 A Yeah. They call them supervisors out 20 there. You got a supervisor, a general supervisor, 21 a three-stripe general supervisor and then a 22 superintendent. 23 Q I see. Is a foreman higher than a 24 general foreman? 25 A No. The general foreman's got two e t

 - - - - _ , . _ -          --.. .    . . , , . . , . .        ._   _ _ - . - _ - . , _ _ - ,, , ,._             ,._,,-.,,,___.m,.r     .m,., . . , - , , , _ , _ . . _ . _ . . . . _ .      , _ . , . ,

I l

                         '                                                                            3G     '

1 I stripes on his hat. l 2 Q So this guy was your boss? 3 A Euh-uh (negative). He later made general 4 fhreman because he went out to Raymond Hebert's L 5 house and built him a little sun deck and a little 6 porch and patio and al1 that, and then he became a 7 general f oreman overnight over in pipe hangers. I 8 heard he got fired, which I hope he did. 9 He had taken a torch and cut the back side

            ~10      of a tube out because a lot of bolts are put in like 11       this, the holes in the wall.                                  They are supposed to be straight, nimety degrees of f the wall.                                  They're
   )         12 13       anchored in the wall, poured into the concrete.

14 MS. ELLIS: Richman inserts. 15 A Yes. And you go to hang a pipe hanger on i 16 that and they give you a threaded piece of steel and 17 you're supposed to stick it in there and it's

            '18       supposed to come ninety degrees off the wall.                                    Well, 19      they come off this way and come off that way and 20     come off this way and this way --

21 MS. ELLIq: For the record, could you 22 kind of try to describe those. angles that you 23 are talking about? That's kind of hard to do 24 sometimes. 25 0 Let me just ask you, maybe it would be l

l 37 I (2) . more clear at least to me that -- were these, I li 1 2 think these are called anchor bolts or something 3 like that? 8 4 A You got Richman inserts is what are in

             ~

5 the concrete wall, poured in around the concrete. I r 6 Q And you say these were installed at ' 7 improper angles -- 8 A Yes. 9 0 -- for the supports that they were to be 1 10 attached to? 11 A Uh-huh (affirmative), () 12 13 ES. ELLIS: Off the record. (Discussi.on off the record.)  ; 14 (Brief r e ce s s ..)

                                                                                                                                       ' ~ ~

15 Q These bolts that yo'u"are discussing, do 16 you know where they were located a't the site? l 17 A Are you talking about the Richman i 18 inser.ts?

19 0 Yes.

, 20 A Well, narrow it down between 860 and 905. 21 I had that whole elevation and all of your 22 compartment rooms. 23 Q Well, do you know specific ones that were 24 A The only way I could give you a specific 25 would have -- my record of my hangers that I done

  -e,-v    v         ewex-w,- ,,  +,,e--- ,--------,--,-------mr----------r-           v--   g. .,--vn   < - - - -  --,,w-m- y - - , -   -,-wma.---,--e-++---,-gm-- ---m----mw-    wv a v:   w--wm

I '

 ,                                                                               36
   )                    -

1 and be able to say, well, this hanger or that hanger 2 was done tha't way. 3 0 Would you have. recorded the , traveler for 4 the hanger if one of these bolts or these inserts -- 5 A No. . 6 0 -- were improperly installed? 7 A No, because we drilled holes this way, we 8 drilled holes up, we drilled holes down due to the 9 installation of the insert.

               ,10              Q      If you found an insert that was 11       improperly installed or not at the correct angle,
     )           12       did you drill these holes to repair it?

13 A N o. You don't drills holes in concrete.

                '14       Not in the insert.

15 MS. ELLIS: I misunderstood, so 16 explain how that works with these deals. How l l 17 do they get into the wall to start with? 18 THE WITNESS: They tie in the rebar 19 when they pour the concrete, and they got a 20 piece of foam in them to plug the hole, and all 21 you do is dig the foam out and stick your 22 threaded rod in there. 23 MS. ELLIS: So rather than' drilling a l 24 hole to put them in to begin with, they have 25 some kind of a form or something and they are

                                      ~.    .

l

I 39 R i ss I poured -- initially when they pour the concrete 2 they are in there to start with? l 3 THE WITNESS: Originally their plans 4 .were to put in so many inserts in a wall area

       ~~

5~ or ceiling or whatever. They just put in a 6 ' bunch of inserts; ever so many feet they put in 1 7 an insert. And hopefully what they were hoping 8 was they could come back and put a pipe 9 support, a cable support or electrical support, 10 wha tev er , a. conduit and use these inserts that  ; 11 were put in there -- which -turned out they  ! () 12 13 didn't use talf of them - " and they had to be grouted over the ones thataweren't used or had 14 to have a hole drilled in there by a Hilti 15 drill in which they changed the entire 16 operation on unit two and went to a solid steel

  .          17              wall   imbeddedintheconcretewithstudsweldedl 18               right-to the steel wall and the concrete poured l       ,

19 around them. I 20 - Q Are you saying that they put this steel 21 in the wall and started welding to that steel? , 22 A Started welding direct in unit two. It  ; I 23 takes in safeguard two, auxiliary two, containment , 24 two.  : O 25 0 Are you saying that the problem then that. I

.\

(]) i 1 we're discussing was in containment ~one? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Where there was no steel wall -- 4 A Well, they started on the -- I think on 5 the 905 pour, when.they poured 905 floor and beams - 6 in' there, they started putting steel in them. But 7 from 905, the bottom of 905 down, there wasn't any 8 steel imbedded in the wall, just a few plates and

                       .              9 stuff.

10 0 The use of the stee'l in the wall took the 11 place of these inserts because you could. a tta.ch i

           )                        12  directly to the steel?

13 A Well, it had a sheet of steel there you i 14 could put whatever hanger you wanted to. 15 Q Okay. When your crew ran into these 16 inserts that were at the wrong angle, placed at the 17 wron'g angle, how did you attach the inserts normally 18 or how did you attach your hanger'to these? 19 A I drilled the hole in the tubing at an l 20 angle, whatever the angle was, because you don't 21 bend inch and a half threaded rod. Normally you 22 don't. 23 Q You drill a hole? l 24 A Drill a hole at an angle, and then I have 25 seen them put in documentation on.some of the 6 1 _.

E 41

'[

x-- - i 1 hangers they put a tapered washer on it to allow for 2 the angle that the threaded rod came out. . 3 Q And then you say they grouted over the  ; 4 other hole? 5 A . Unused ones had,to be grouted. You had a, 6 dimension from one hole to another that you could j 7 drill. There was a dimension in your nine point six t l 8 documentation out there how close you could drill to ; - I l , 9 a Richman insert, how close you could drill to 10 another H il ti-b ol t or how close you could drill to 11 .another attachment or steel plate or whatever. () 12 13 There's all kinds in your nine point six. Q Are you saying that these redrillings or 14 these angled drillings into these inserts i 15 constituted a' procedural violation on unauthorized . 16 drilling?  ! i 17 A Well,.there again, you can go back to i i 18 being that neither one of us are engineers. These 19 inserts are tied to rebar with wire, all right? To 20 be at a hundred percent, they have to be surrounded  : i l [ . l 21 by concrete a hundred percent, and they have to be  ; i I l 22 nine ty degrees off the wall. When you stick j l 23 something in it, it should be ninety degrees off the ' l 24 vall. If you have got this thing in there at, say, 25 at a ten-degree angle, you've not got the same l , _ _ _ . _ _ _ . _ , . .. _ _ _ _ . _ _ . - - _ _ _ . . . _ _ . . _ . . , _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ , ,_ _. ...--,. _ _ _.- - ,. ~ ._._... -, -

     -                                                                                                                                                                       42 ys'                                                                           .

1 pulling capacity or coming out of the wall as you 2 have if it's straight. 3 Q Let me ask you this, then. how many 4 instances do you know of in which there were -- 5 many? 6 A Bow about ten that were right and the 7 rest wrong. I 8 Q Is that right?

9 A Now,.that's the percentage.

l 10 Q What did QC said? l 11 A QC never seen them. .QC didn't see

        )                    12                   ndthing but the : finished product.

13 . Q So the finished product they saw was a 14 bolt sticking out that was attached to a hanger and 15 it looked to be proper? 16 A (Nods head affirmatively). QC don't get  : 17 in behind the hanger. You had a one-inch plate that l 18 goes in behind, say -- for instance, we used a L 19 six-inch tube vertical on .the wall and say we had 20 tw'o of these inserts. All right, we drilled 21 completely through the tube, used a one-inch washer 22 in the back of the tube, a one-inch washer in front 23 of the tube, and this one i nch or inch and a half i 24 threaded rod went through the washer, the tube, the 25 washer and into the wall.

   -,y-   v-- , -

y,-, e.- ,.--vwe- ,w- - y-*9 _ ,.-,.v

                                                              .----,__---_.7-.      ,,,,p   ,_,,,_.,-.,,,,-,__y    ---,m- g,-.----g-pr,my.   .g-__  gmy--,.,y,   _---,.-,----,.-.g   ,m..,.,s-.,

1 43 (:;' i l 1 Now, if it was at an angle, QC never sees 2 this because there's a nut on top of that. 3 Q Were the engineers aware of this manner i 4 of altering these inserts when they ~were at an 5 improper angle? . 6 A Man, I tell you what, I have been around ' 7 a lot of places in my life but I have never seen 8 anything out there -- if they call themselves 9 engineers -- I don't know what you'd call me, a 10 nigger aviator, I guess. l But I '-m telling you, they l 11 don't communicate, they don't go out in the field. J 12 How in the hell can you solve any problem if you sit 13 in this office and you don't g oecou t into the plant? 14 That was their problem. 15 0 Would you mind telling me the original 16 instance of this manner of correcting these, the 17 angle of these inserts? 18 A Only way to correct it is not use it and 19 drill around it and drill a straight' hole. You I l 20 don't put a Richman anchor in after the concrete is  : i 21 poured. l 22 O Who was directing that they do it, 23 though?  ! I 24 A The Richman -- 25 Q These redrillings. , 8 f ppp p q9 $$ M P P h M DSA P O +

s 44

      )                                                                                                                                          .

l l 1 A Your building department. 2 Q Who specifically? Somebody had to decide l-3 that it was going to be done this way. Do you know 4 who? , 5 A No. I imagine that comes from your G original Gibbs and Hill drawings or something. 7 Q I'm talking about the variation, this 8 changing the angle without -- to make it improper, j l  ! 9, where the angle is wrong. -- - 10 A I'm losing you someplace. I don't know 11 what you're saying.

        )         12                    Q          You're saying it's supposed'to be at i                  13              ninety degrees angles to the wall?

I 14 A Yeah. j 15 Q And you-all were changing the angles so 16 it would fit -- 17 A We weren't touching the Richman now. 18 Only thing we did was take the threaded rod, and 19 whatever angle it is, we would drill it at. that 20 angle so that it would come through the tube and 21 when it come out the other side of the tube, it come 22 out as close to center as we could get it. 23 0 When you talk about tube, are you talking

     .            24              about tube steel?

25 A' Uh-huh (affirmative). l

I 45 i

• i 1 Q On the hanger? l l 2 A On the hanger. There was no way of l

3 changing the insert. 4 Q So the insert remained the same and the 5 angle on th'e tube steel was changed?'  ! 6 A Wel, the holes through the tube steel was 7 changed. i 8 0 Okay. So does that mean that the tube 9 steel had at least two holes in it, one of which was ; . 10 used and the other unused? 11 A No. No. I don't know how to describe () 12 13 that to you. know me and my drawing. say that's the' insert. You got a piece of tube All right, you 14 steel'here. We're going to runethis one 15 horizontally. All right, looking at it, here is the 16 hole in the front like so. All right, this back 17 hole, we'll say that this angle runs this way to our 18 left. The back hole, if you know anything about a 19 print at all, might be drilled like that. 20 Understand'what I'm saying, looking straight through

                                 '21     the tube?

22 0 I-think so. 23 A. Then this one here might be drilled like 24 thus. But when it come out the front it was O. 25 straight, so that means that this tube, if I was i l _. .

 ---.c._ _ . , , . . . _ . _ - ~     .m.-_.     ,_-,.,-----_.,m-       - _ _ . - , , , . _ , - ,,--
                                                                                                                                              --,-----____----,_m,-,_w-

 ,,                                                                                                                      4G
<-)                                                                              -

l 1 sticking it in the wall here, would be at this angle 2 or -- no, this angle, in order to get out, and this 3 here be at this angle and.get out. But.when you 4 tighten on an inch-and-a-half screw, whatever gives 5 I don't know, but it's flat on the front. And see, 6 you got a b-ig one-inch washer that goes here, the 7 size of the tube and also on the back side of it to 8 space it away from the wall. l Okay. 9 Q 10 A So we don't change the insert. 11 Q And you are saying because it's not at 'm () 12 13 the proper angle that it is less than whatever the load factor of its ability to support whatever i 14 weight it is supporting? l l ! 15 A Well, again, I'm not an engineer but if

                                                                              ~

16 something is designed to go in a certain way and l 17 it's not there, it's not in that way, then it's not 18 designed right. And it is a weaker point. 19 Q Okay. I 20 MR. HERR: Did you bring this to 21 anybody else's attention. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It don't do no 23 good. l 24 MR. HERR: Do you know who you ! 25 brought it to? c.,a- .

  ^g                                                                          47 sNl                                                                                   l l

1 THE WITNESS: Oh, you could Just , j 2 about mention anybody else's name of my 3 superiors from Hal Goodson to Mike Sanders to 4 Mike Robinson to Ed Dean to Jim. Starkey. 5 There's a jewel you ought to hang. 6 MR. HERR: ,What did they say when youl I 7 brought it to their attention? l 8 THE WITNESS: Do you want a quote? 9 " Hang the damn thing". What doryou do? And 10 that is all my upper supervisors. You don't Il- know how glad I.am to be away from that place. () 12 I ain't got no job, but I'm still glad to be away from it. I've never seen anything in my 13 14 forty-three years on earth'run like that place. 15 , O Can you think of any way that we can 16 identify specifics again of hangers that were, where 17 these holes were improperly --  ; 18 A I tell you what. I just about bet you, 19 M r '. Griffin, I'm telling you what I bet you. Just i 20 go out there and pull any damn studded rod out of 21 there, pull three of them and two of them is i 22 crooked. l 23 0 And these were never addressed by QC froml l i 24 that inspection? ' l .. 25 A There's no way of checking it. No way of i (

48 'N  ! 1 knowing what angle that thing is in there unless you 2 pull the hanger off and screw a straight rod in 3 there and'look at it. But I would say, I would just 4 damn near bet you that out of three rods you get two 5 of them that's crooked. .

                                                                                            ~

6 MS. ELLIS: Just to be sure I 7 understand, when you look'at this straight on S like QC would come and look at it, swer'ything 9 looks all right from the front and all of the 10 part that you are talking -about that's at an 11 angle is, in effect, hidden? 12 THE WITNESS: Iths inside the 13 concrete. Nobody knows ita It's inside of 14 solid concrete. 15 Q Can you think of any way that we can 16 identify particular areas where this was done? Is 17 this all the areas that don't have steel plate 18 against the wall?

        .             19                A                            No.                   Most of the places that had the 20         threaded rod wob1d be in the compartments, 21         compartments one, two, three and four, and then you 22         have a lot of your other buildings, safegua.rd and 23        auxiliary, they all got the threaded rod imbe dded ,

24 inserts. 25 Q Okay. 9 P6

• 9

  . - -         . . . -       --,       ,   , - - . . , . - , - . . - - ~ , . . - . . .       ,   , , + - - - , - - - - - - - , - - - - . .       .--..-,-..-n,-   . -,,.n- ,----,,,_,.r-.-.-,-c-

1 i t

                                                               '                                                                                                                                        I
                                                                                                                                                                                  ~49
 '*g                                                                                                                                                                                                    i s-)

• i 1 A But in the containment itself, you would.

2 probably find'them in the compartments would - j .. l 3 probably be the major part of them. Y<- l 4 Q All right. Let's go back to this, the 5 use of the ' cutting torch. Is that -- i I 6 A That's what I'm saying. This hanger in  ; l 7 these compartments, if they didn't have enough 8 intelligence to find out what kind of angle it is  ; i 9 and how to drill the hole from the back and make it l 1 . 10 come out center from the front, what this foreman 11 done out there or g e ne r.a1 foreman on nights, what he 12 done was take e torch and cut about a three-inch 1 13 hole. .And you can see, if I cut -- if I got this ) i 14 angle here and may we have another one here and the l  ; 15 back was at another angle, we just cut that sucker j 16 out like that so we can move that thing any way we  : l 1 i 17 want to to get it started.  ; i 18 0 How do they fill in the hole or is it -- , , l 19 A They don't-fill it in; it's covered with l , 20 a washer. The only reason I found it out, the 21 hanger that was particularly put up by this guy was , i 22 designed wrong. I had to go'down there and tear it ' 23 down. And I went to my superior Ed Dean and I said, i 24 what are you going to do about this? I mean, I got  ! 25 my butt tore up yesto'rday because I put something in I i h%% f %S M F F " M 8

50 I wrong or because one of my men had forgot to grout. , 2 behind a plate. I got called up to the front officei

3. about a plate I put up three or four years ago. And A

4 it wasn't grouted, the holes wasn't grouted behind 5 the plate. And I wap called in and told if they 6 found one more hanger like that that I was going out 7 the gate. I said, Raymond, what the hell are you 8 talking about? I can't stand there and watch-9 fifteen men every five minutes put up every plate, 10 and you're going to fire me for something that 11 happened four years ago, fire me.

     )            12                             . And then I go down there and I report 13         something like this to my general foreman.                                   He i

14 reports to Raymond Hebert -- well, this same guy is 15 the one that built the little sun deck or whatever 16 you want to call it at Raymond Hebert's house. 17 MR. HERR: What's his name?

                                                                                                     -                    l 18                                               THE WITNESS:        Raymond Hebert.
          .       19                                               MR. HERR         No, the guy that did the 20                      building.

21 THE WITNESS: That's the name I can't 22 remember, o 23 MR. HERR: The night foreman? 24 THE WITNESS: 'He was the general 25 f oreman. I sold him a car. Hell, he used to

i 51 1 be a good friend of mine. I don't have nothing 2 against the guy except he don't know nothing. 3 Q Can you think of anybody else that.we can 4 go talk to that can identify some hangers where they 5 specifically remember that this was done, these c.u t a 6 were made in the tube steel? 7 A Let me go home and 1 can give'you a call 8 and I can give some names. If they are going to 9 talk I don't know. If they are still out there, 10 ninety-mine out of a hundred of them are in the l 11 clique and they ain't going to talk unless they are

      )   12   utteriy th r e a te ne d , because their jobs are on the 13   line. Bell, they are making thirty-five, forty-                         l 14   thousand dollarm a year for doimg nothing and they 1

15 ain't going to come over here and ta.ke a chance on 16 losing their job. Several of them'are still there. 17 I think about seventy-five percent of my crew is 18 there. But if they would talk, I don't know. l 19 0 Okay. l ! 20 MR. GRIFFIN: Off the record. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 Q Now, you say the fellow that was drilling 23 the holes with the drill, is that this guy -- 24 A The one I was drilling for. He was l ..': 25 foreman in that area. I was drilling holes for him. i

                            ,$ P A n l o p , If p r P 4 e , p{pe     7A1.4Cf7

l 52 i, I

     ~

1 Q And his name is Nathan? l 2 A Nathan Hammers or something like that, j 3 Hammers. 4 Q And Hammers might know specific holes 5 drilled -- 6 A True. 7 0 -- with the~ rebar eater? 8 A Yeah. If you could corner him, I think  ! l 9 he would go. i 10 Q All right. Now, the use of the cutting j l 11 torch on this tube steel, you say this was at the , I) 12 direction of the general foreman? 13 A No. He wasn't a general foreman at that i 14 time.  ? 15 Q He became -- l 16 A He became general foreman later. H e was -- 17 boy, I tell you what, if you could get in my print 18 shack out there and get my log that I kept on every 19 damn hanger I got in there, I could tell you who 20 worked on it, the name of the person that worked on 21 it and when he done it. I kept a daily log, but I 22 turned that over to the new foreman. When they 23 busted me back, I give him that so he would have a 24 record of all the hangers put up. In that log is 25 all the feedwater hangers that were reworked and why i

                                               - ...- - =

        .    .      l                                                                                              .

,, 53 i <l) - 1; and who the person that worked on them, because if. 2 anything ever fell back I went to each of them men 3 and said, why was it done this way. Because when 4 you got two or three guys here and two or three guys 5 here and two or three guys here and so forth and so. 6 on, you can't be at every place at one time. , 7 But if you could get ahold of that log 8 that was in my print shack, I can narrow them 9 hangers down real close for you. 10 Q How many would there be? 11 A Every hanger between 46 0 and 905 that I O (;) 12 put up. Every <T line, every main steam line, 13 feedwater line. It should still be in my print j

                                                                             '  ~

14 shack. l MR. HERRi~~Who did you give the log

                                                                                             ~

15 16 to? 17 THE WITNESS: Here we go again. I'm 18 not very good on names as you found out. I can 19 give you his name, too, because I got it in my 20 time book. He was my lead man f or me f or about 21 six months. He was an ex-foreman down there; 22 his foreman lasted about a month before they 23 busted him back. 24 MR. HERR: When did you give it to ' 25 him?

E I l 54 l i

;                1             THE WITNESS :   When I got fired -- no,l 2   no, in June of '82 when they busted me back is                ,

3 when I gave him everything in that print shack 1 4 except that document you got there, which was i 1 5 none of his business that I took with me. l l 6 M R.. HERR And you weren't fired 7 until when? I l 8 THE WITNESS: December 7th. l l 9 MR. HERR Of '827 l 10 THE WITNESS: -

                                                 '82, l

11 MR. HERR: He had it six months? i l ( 12 ~THE WITNESS: Herhad it six months, ' 13 and everybody liked the way I kept that log I l l 14 because they could go right to that book and ' i 15 open it up and it would tell what percentage of i , 16 that hanger was done, who worked on it and the .  ; 17 rework and CMC's and so forth on it, 18 'M R . SERR Was it a black or green

       ,       19    book?

l 20 THE WITNSSS: No, it was a notebook I' l 21 with paper in it, a regular black notebook. 22 MR.-HERR: Three ring? l - 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And in there is j I 24 everything I have done in four years out there. l 25 MR. HERR Was there any printing on

                                                                .               i l

i 1 l l I __.-,-_-_..J

 ,,3                                                                      5 :.

\) - 1 it?

                                      .I 2                THE WITNESS:      No. Yeah, it would 3     just have -- let's see, I forget what I had on 4     the front of it. I had this whiteout that you 5     use on ty' ping paper.     .I had something printed' 6     on that, main steam or containment one hangers 7     or something like that.        I don't remember what 8     it was. You can't miss my shack.

9 MR. HERR: Where was your shack 10 located? 11 THE WITNESS: It was located on 860

      )          12     but now it's outside of the entrance to 13     containment one. It's a brdght red shack out 14     there. I painted it bright. red because I got 15     in trouble for putting a Christmas tree on it 16     one year.. And it's got my name all over it, 17     Bob Messerly, 8895.

18 MR. GRIFFIN: Do you have any more 19 questions? 20 HR. HERR: Is there anything else 21 outside of your affidavit that you wish to go 22 into or describe to us at this time? 23 THE WITNESS: No. Well, I don't 24 really know. If you are going to get into 25 , something besides what I have discussed

                              .~                     .
         )                                                                                                                                                                                                        i 1      already, I know it's been brought up before,                                                                                                    ,

2 but if you can get ahold of a guy named Red -- 3 I gave you his name the other day. I ain't got 4 it with me. I wish I had his address. He was 5 , a weld tech out there and he can tell you about 6 a lot of that welding. That's another name

          .                                               7      I'll have to get for you.                                  I have got it on one 8     of my affidavits or something.                                         And there's a 9     Joe Gray that was a welding foreman out there 10            that done a lot of welding illegally without 11           documentation, such as lugs on pipes without A

() 12 purge, and -- .~

                          ,                         13                     fl R . HERR                              Did he tell you this?

14 THE WITNESS: I seen him do it. 15 MR. HERR: Can you give me-the 16 location? 17 THE WITNESS: It was down on the 832 18 elevation. Roy Estes was foreman at the time,

                       ;                            19           and you might get ahold of a guy named Gary 20          Hill who was foreman down on 808 elevation 21          which had some bad lugs welded on by Joe Gray 22          illegally. Ed Dean'was general foreman and

23 they done it on the sly, Raymond Hebert knew l 24 about it.

25 MR. HERR: Who gave the order?

  ,__.,-,_,,..~_,.--,._,..,--__,,_______.._.,_,.__,_.,_-.-._m-                    . , - _ , , , . - - . _ , , _ , _          , , _ _ ,

t 57 (2) - 1 THE WITNESS: Raymond Hebert. l 2 MR. HERR: He gave it t'o Dean, and  ! i I 3 Dean passed it -- l' 4 THE WITNESS: Dean then passed it to 5 Joe Gray because he was the f oreman. He would 6 go down there and do it and didn' t want any of 7 the welders to know about it. 8 MS. ELLIS: Was there anybody else 9 maybe on the crew that you know of -- 10 THE WITNESS: Joe Gray's crew or my 11 c rew ? - () 12 13 41S . ELLIS: -- that would have known about this particular thing that you are 14 talking about? 15 THE WITNESS: Other than Joe Gray and l 16 there's another name I need to find out. I can 17 give you a bunch of names on stuff that was 18 done wrong down there that was seen by them er 19 stuff like that. The only thing you can do is 20 if they are still working down there -- I heard 21 Joe Gray got fired, too. 22 0 Okay. Why don't we wrap this thing up? 23 We discussed three issues outside of just l 24 those notices posted, and we have asked you or you f 25 have mentioned names or knowledge of names of i l l

I ( . I people, although you cannot recall the names right; 2 at the moment regarding the use of this rebar eater, 3 the polar crane, that incident and the use of these 4 torches to cut hangers. And do you agree that you 5 will call.me and let me know -- 6 A I do. 7 Q -- fill in these names with these 8 situations as you have described them -- 9 A Yes. 10 0 -- so we can put a complete package 11 together?  ;

     \          12       A       I can give you everyc.name that was in the i
  \_/                                                                          l 13 rebar crew from the time I had it.        I have my time    l la books at home.       I kept my own time books.              i 15       0      We are'looking for people that know about 16 these instances of illegal or improper or work done         !

17 out of procedure. ! 18 A These are all the people that were doing  !

       , ,i                                                                     !
          ,     19 it. My entire crew was.                                    l 20                     MR. HERR:  They were doing that at 21       your direction --

l 22 THE WITNESS: At my direction, but l 23 several of them were there when Mike Sanders . I I 24 came down and ordered me to do so. And when 25 your superiors tell you to do something and

l 59 - i 1 your job is on the line, that's what you did., . 2 HR. HERR: These improper weldings by l 3 Gray and some of these, did they tell you that 4 they had actually done it improperly? l 5 THE WITNESS: I have seen them do it. t 6 Any time you weld a stainless steel lug on, you l , 7 have to purge a line after a certain size. If 8 you don't purge it, it causes a sugar coating 9 on the inside and sucks that pipe into the t i 10 , pie c e of steel that you are welding. So.what ! 11 you have is you have a void area inside of a ,() '12 slick steel piece of pipe,:just a sunk-in area.j 13 The s t a i nla s s -- on stainiass it just sucks it l l 14 right into that lug you're welding. We're  ! i 15 talking about a little lug like half an inch 16 long and maybe three-eighths of an inch high. i 17 What it is,~it's a lug that keeps the pipe froml 18 doing this motion. You weld like four lugs on { 19 this side, four lugs on this side around a i 20 pipe, and you put a clamp in between it and 21 struts back to a fixed object on the wall and 22 it stops that pipe from going in this motion or '- 23 up and down, whichever way the pipe is located. 24 MS. ELLIS: And the purpose of it is j 25 to keep the pipe from moving?

 . , _ _ _ . _ . . _ _ . _ _ . . . . _ - . _ _ _ _ _ . . . _ . - . . _ _ _ _ _ .                . . , . _ ~ , . . . . _ . . _ . , , , _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ , . , _ . , . . _ . . _ _ .          . . , , . .      ._ -.,_ _,-. ,.

I l

      .,/      1 1                   THE WITNESS:     R i,g h t .

2 0 Wouldn't that show up on a radiograph? 3 A It should. 4 0 And aren't such things radiographed

          .5     before they are finally accepted by DC?

6 A No. On a stainless you get a -- hell, l 7 they run that dye test on it. 8 MR. HERR: Penetrant test? f

    ,        S                   THE WITNESS:     Yeah, penetrant.

10 That's the only thing, as long as the weld is 11 pretty and all that, it wild pass penetrant, m

  )       12          But that's all on the inside.

l , 13 31R. HERR: Do you know one way or the 14 other whether these are involving 15 safety-related or nonsafety-related., or do you 16 know offhand -- 17 THE WITNESS: N o ,. I'm not a nuclear 18 power plant -- it's all put in there for l

    .,    19          something. Now, what particular thing this 20          did, I don't know -- I couldn't be honest with 21          you and tell what you it did without 22          remembering the line.

23 HR. HERR: The exact location. 24 THE WITNESS: The exact location and 25 line number. If you had the line number I'd we

61 l' [2) - 1 tell you what it did. , 2 MS. ELLIS: Was it like in the l 3 containment? 4 THE WITNESS: Everything I done was 5 in the containment. Everything I have , 6 mentioned here, except for the rebar eater, ' 7 concerns the containment building in Reactor-8 One, which the reactor is inside containment 9 one. But everything I have mentioned in here 10 has happened in here that I have personally , 11 seen done. l (Qj 12 ER. HERR: Do you have anything else 13 you' wish to add? -- 14 .TH E WITNESS: No. I'll give you a i 15 list of names.  ! 16 MR. HERR: Thank you very much, Mr. 17 Messerly. 18 (End of statement). 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 t- , E

    ...s>      -                                                                                                                                                                         ,

62 O - 4 1 STATE OF TEXAS 2 COUNTY OF D ALL AS  ! 3 4 This is to certify that I, David Cogburn, 5 reported in' shorthand.the p.roceedings had at the 6 time and place set forth in the caption hereof, and 7 that the above and foregoing 62 pages contain a 8 full, t' rue and correct transcript of said proceed-

        ..                9        ings.

10 Given.under my hand and seal of office on this 11 the day of , 1983. O () 12 - i 13 David Cogburn, Notary Public in and for the State of Texas 14 County of Dallas 15 My Commission Expires on December 30, 1985. 16 17 18

         'l             19 20                                                                                                                                                                   ;

21 i ! 22 l 23 l 24 25 (~) No' . I S t : r.l e y , M:::ic, nice 't!-d55' l l

                 ----       ---.,.,_y      .,,r..,~.      . , ---,---,--,---,----,-r--.----              ,-        , - . . . - , - . . - - - - - - - - , . , - - , - , - , . , , . _ - ,

         \
       ..p I have read the foreccing 61 page depositicn, taken before Lavid Ccgburu ,

a court reporter in and fcr the State of Texas at the United Statec Court-house in the city of Fort 7torth, County of Tarrant on the lhth d'ay of April 1983 at 2:00 p.m. It is true and correct to the best of pr/ know1dge and be-lief.

                                                                ...-         Y&

(SIGNEURE) d-/f-23 (DATE) a this, the /M day of wf , 1983 , personally appeared f , kncws to see to be the person whose name is subscribe to the foregoing instrument, and acknow-ledged to me that he executed the same- for the purposes therein expressed . Subscribed and: sworn before me en the _- day of l .m , , _

                                  , 1983.

r% a.&~ NOTARY F AND FOR THE STME OF TEXAS Mr COWISSION EXPIRES : G [[_ I -_. _ __ _ - , , , . - - _ -}}