ML061790725

OI Interview Transcript of Witness

ML061790725
Person / Time
Site:	Salem, Hope Creek
Issue date:	12/23/2003
From:	NRC/OI
To:
References
1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1267
Download: ML061790725 (51)

Text

Official Transcript of Proceedings.

NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION C>

C1-Title: Interview ofIiI Docket Number: 1-2003-051 F

(-.

Location: Salem, New Jersey Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 Work Order No.: NRC-1267 Pages 1-49 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

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Information in this record was deieted in accordance with the Freedom of ,nformation Act, iQIA.,ý `206x7?C-exemptions -/9 c/

1 UNITED STATED OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3

4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:

8 INTERVIEW OF  : Docket No.

9  : 1-2003-051F 10 (CLOSED) 11 x 12 Tuesday, December 23, 2003 13 14 Salem and Hope Creek Nuclear 15 -Power Station 16 Salem, New Jersey

-17 18 The above-entitled interview was conducted 19 at 1:40 p.m.

20 BEFORE:

21 Special Agent Eileen Neff, NRC/RI/OI 22 APPEARANCES:

23 SCOTT BARBER, NRC/DRP, Senior Project Engineer 24 TED WINGFIELD, nrc/drp, Project Engineer 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 II PROCEEDINGS 2 (1:40 p.m.)

3 and that is a case by case 4 basis, and you know how strong it is, but 5 realistically I have had very little resistance, and 6 again I feel that I get some respect from them because 7 of my duration and position.

8 MR. BARBER: Okay. Very good. I think I 9 am done with that line of questioning.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: All right. I need to 11 take a quick break, all right?

12 (Brief recess.)

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We are on the 14 record, and it is December 23rd, 2003, and the time is is approximately 1:40 p.m. Unfortunately, we had a 16 glitch with the recording device, and we are going 17 backwards over some testimony that started at 1:25

.18 p.m.

19 Speaking is Special Agent Eileen Neff, 20 U.S. NRC Region I, Office of Invelstigations, and also 21 present from Region I is senior project engineer Scott 22 Barber, and Project Engineer Ted Wingfield. Today's 23 interview is taking place wit 24 I and that is spelled-2 -- name-,-

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1is aSa 3 . experience here at Salem. The location of 4 this interview is the NRC Residence Office at Salem 5 and Hope Creek Station.

6 The subject of the interview is the safety 7 conscious work environment, and it has been identified aforthat there is no potential violation 9 associated with the safety conscious work environment, 10 and in that you are not being approached as a subject 11 of any investigation. You are a witness to this 12 investigation, more or less a witness to the 13 assessment that is ongoing here of the culture here 14 on-site.

15 We had placed you under oath, am I right?

16 I will do that again.

17 (Whereupon, -was resworn.)

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And your 19 identification, again, your date of birth and social 20 security number?

21 My date of birth is 22 1 and my social security number 23 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thank you. And for 25 the record your education and background, and you NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 summarized it as having high school and some college, 2 and your work experience we just summarized, right?

3 j Correct.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: With W years on-5 site?

6 10On-site.

7 \'SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And we have been 8 talking about your perspective, and it is all your 9 experience at the Salem side. Initially what we did 10 was go into individuals -- we went into your II assessment of the culture as it exists today, and your 12 assessment of the safety culture today, and what I was 13 looking for were whether you had noted any particular 14 strengths or any particular weaknesses in that.

15 True, and I saw it only as 16 strengths, and I didn't see any weaknesses.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And we covered 1.8 with you that you feel that the ability for people to 19 raise concerns of a nuclear safety nature from those 20 that you have managed, your observation is that they 21 do that, and that they can do that without fear of 22 retaliation based on your experience.

23 Your testimony also was that your peers 24 and yourself can raise concerns to operations 25 management, and to senior management in the same NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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manner, and that you are able to raise concerns

-2 without fear of retaliation?

.J3 That's correct.

4, SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Then all of 5 that is accurate then. And then we covered an area 6, that we got into, and Scott, you were asking some 7* questions, along the lines of operability decision 8 making, and I don't know if you want to go and cover 9 some of that.

10 MR. BARBER: Sure, I can summarize that.

11 We were talking about containment fan cooler units, 12 and was relating just for example a problem with 13 leakage, or potential problems with leakage with the 14 fan cooling' units, and I was asking him about 15 operability determinations, and what or how he 16 processed those, and he said that in general that he 17 would make a decision on whether the component was 18 operable or not, and he would discuss it with his

19. direct management, being a 20 And then we had a dialogtre about what kind 21 of feedback they gave him and whether he felt free to 22 make his own decision on the operability 23 determination.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And your answer to 25 that, sir? NEAL R. GROSS A COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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U 1 **S.4 That there was little 2 resistance and that I was free to make 3 recommendations.

4 MR. BARBER: That's good.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The information, or 6 some of the information that we have been working 7 with, and some things that have been reported, 8 indicates that the Salem shift managers, at least in 9 the period of 2002, late 2002, and into 2003, the I

10 Salem shift managers as a whji-le felt that there was a 11 rift between them and senior management, in terms of 12 operability decision making.

___13 --- Do- you -know--where- that -would -come--from? ___

14 Do you have an understanding of the basis that goes 15 into saying-something like that?

16 I have no personal experience.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I mean, had you heard 18 anything that would or might offer an explanation for 19 something like that?

20 Well, I know that decisions 21 were made where senior management had given a certain 22 direction, and then as time went on, and things were

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2 SPEC-IkL-AGENT-NEFF .-- A-ndwha t-t me-pe-riod 25- -are-we-t-ea-lking-about? __ ____

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1I I am trying to remember. It 2 was a Unit 2 start up probably at the beginning of the 3 year based on the number of circulators and 4 circulating water pumps that they wanted to have in 5 the condenser before they move the unit up.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So this would be the 7 beginning of this year?

8 I believe that is when it was.

9 It is a guess. It was either the end of last year or 10 the beginning of this year.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did it include 12 grassing?

13 Yes, right, that was the 14 concern, and if they didn't have enough circulators 15 running and you lost another one, you would just have 16 to back down again.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you are 18 saying that this is not something that you were a part 19 of, but something that you had heard about?

20 2That I had heard about, right.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Can you identify who 22 was involved in the situation? Who were the senior

- nvolved?

23 management and who were the 24

• It was 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And the 2 positions taken? What was position?

3 Well, the original criteria 4 was that we would have five circulators running before 5 we brought the unit up, and they got to four, and they 6 said, well, that is good enough. There was some 7 disagreement as to what was conservative and what 8 wasn't.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was [

10 position?

11 "M wr~1 It was that four was okay at 12 that point.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And did you 14 witness any of these discussions?

15 No. All hearsay.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So this is 17 something that you heard about?

18 51 '.:y:.Yes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So that might go into 20 why someone would describe this as a rift with 21 management, with shift managers and senior management?

22

• OW Correct.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about anything 24 else? I mean, does one incident cause a rift, or is 25 there something more to it?

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1 §3 That is the only one that I 2 can recall.

3 MR. BARBER: What if you were the shift 4 manager for that set of circumstances. Would you have 5 an issue with starting it with four?

6 Not really.

7 MR. BARBER: Is there a minimum that you 8 need?

9 *

• Well, what we used to do is 10 just as lone as you had one in each condenser that 11 would be good, but given the circumstances with the 12 grassing that was doing on, you would like to have a i3 little comfort zone in case you did have to take one 14 out.

15 MR. BARBER: So if you had to take one 16 out, and if you only had three, and you had to take 17 one out, would you have to take one off-line, or shut 18 it back down?

19 Right.

20 MR. BARBER: Could you start up with two, 21 like two circulators?

22 It is not advisable.

23 MR. BARBER: Okay. Is there something in 24 the procedure that prohibits that?

25 )*No, I don't think so.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is there a minimum 2 that is required by procedure?

3 Well, usually you try to get 4 one in each water box.

5 MR. BARBER: Okay. But would that be 6 specified? I mean, a lot of times what you will see 7 is if you go to a general ops procedure, it will say 8 circ water system in operation for umpty squad, and 9 then that is an individual system procedure.

10 And if you go into that, and you read it, 11 it will tell you, and sometimes it will tell you how 12 to start watches.

13 It will tell you to start as 14 long as you have one in each condenser, and you were 15 good.

16 MR. BARBER: Okay.

17 * ~But that was more like you are 18 already running, and it was not more for starting up.

19 MR. BARBER: Okay. Thank you.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was there anything in 21 2002 that you would think would fall into this 22 category?

23 Not that I can recall.

24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What about -- the way 25 that it has been described is that some of the NEAL R. GROSSc COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 decision making is considered to be a gray area.

2 17 That is how it goes with 3 everything. I'm sorry.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, and in that gray 5 area, you might find ourself to the far or on 6 conservative side.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then you might 9 find yourself up against someone who has an opinion 10 that is on the less conservative side, and maybe being 11 more aggressive in terms of what can be done and what 12 can't be done.

13 Have you personally been in a situation 14 where you are making a decision, and you are making a 15 call on what the plant status is to be on an 16 operability decision, and you are finding your call 17 questioned or debated, or you are having to defend it 18 in some manner with anybody in your management chain.

19 . Anybody in the management 20 chain? I would say, yes, it would be questioned, but 21 usually if you give them an explanation and you have 22 a sound basis, there is no problem.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And how long 24 does something like that last? I mean, how long does 25 your questioning take to explain your position?

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1 It depends upon the complexity 2 of the situation, too. It could take 5 minutes, and 3 it could take an hour.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Ard where does 5 it come from usually? Who does the questioning?

6 Whoever I am talking to, be it 7

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:

9 10 Yes.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So either of your 12 13 **"Right.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And typically that is 15 where your questions are coming from?

16 Right. And then he will go to 17 his superior, and if he has any questions, then it 18 falls back down again.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You might go through 20 it a little further?

21 400 Sure. It depends on somebody 22 else getting a different perspective, right.

23 MR. BARBER: You specifically mentioned 24 the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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2 3 Did you ever have any dealings with either 4 one of those individuals on operational type issues?

S .Usually they would go through 6 who I work for, and they would not deal with me 7 directly. I mean, a chain-of-command type of thing.

8 MR. BARBER: Right. I mean, you never had 9 like. talk to you and ask you about 10 something that was going on, or would have a 11 discussion about something that was happening in the 12 plant?

13 Oh, sure.

14 MR. BARBER: Did he ever ask you to do 15 something a certain way, or provide feedback on where 16 to move the plant?

17 WO Not to me. I mean, he would 18 go through and then they would come 19 down and talk to me if that was the case.

20 MR. BARBER: Did you ever experience 21 something where either ....... w..ould say that 22 upper management wants to do this, or upper management 23 wants to do that, and whether it be 24 j*or something like that, and it just didn't 25 seem quite right to you, or you weren't sure why you NEAL R. GROSSf\)-

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1 were doing something?

2 / o, they would always offer an 3 explanation and most times you can see their 4 perspective, and say, okay, I didn't consider that.

5 MR. BARBER: Have you ever experienced a 6 set of conditions where you feel like the way with 7 dealing with issues and problems, and whether you move 8 the plant in a certain direction or not, it has like 9 changed?

10 Like if it was 6 or 7 years ago, and we 11 would have done it this way, and if it is 2 or 3 years 12 ago, we would have done it something totally 13 different.

14.  : It is far more conservative 15 these days.

16 MR. BARBER: Is it?

17 Oh, yes.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: As compared to when?

.19 . Six or seven years ago.

20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Six or seven?

21  : Sure. It is a whole different 22 culture, and I am saying that as I believe it is not 23 only here, but I believe that is throughout the 24 industry. I mean, people are a lot more conservative 25 than they used to be.

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1 And again it is a learning curve, too, and 2 the longer you operate, the more that you know.

3 MR. BARBER: Okay.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In recent years when 5 you have made your decision, and you explained it to 6 your AOL or your ON, have they ever come back to you 7 and questioned further, debated further, to a point a where you were made uncomfortable in having to defend 9 that position, or you felt that they crossed the line?

10

• No, I have not had that 11 experience.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did you ever get to 13 the point where you felt that they challenged the 14 safety of the plant and that they are either 15 questioning it, delaying it, or debating what you were 16 going to do?

17 I can't think of any.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You can't think of 19 any?

20 No. Sorry.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. No, I am just 22 asking you. Now, on the -- we were looking at that 23 from the point of view of -- and this being a gray 24 area, you are on the conservative side, and management 25 would be on the more aggressive and less conservative, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 and decision making.

2 Now, flip that, and have you ever been in 3 a position where you have made a call, and they have 4 argued it to do something different on the more 5 conservative side?

6 I noticed circumstances out 7 there. I can't think of -- I am not good with 8 specific examples, and I apologize.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you want to take 10 a moment and think if there are examples out there, or 11 do you think that it isn't going to come?

12 I don't think it will come.

13 I know that there have been instances, because there 14 is a lot of things that go on.

15 MR. BARBER: If I could add some stuff 16 that maybe will jog your memory.

17 Sure.

18 MR. BARBER: These are just like issues, 19 and one of the things is that we have talked to 20 different people at all levels of the organization, 21 and things come up from time to time.

22 One that you specifically mentioned was 23 grassing, and how many circulators to start up with.

24 Another one that has been mentioned is temporary logs.

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1 characterize a number of temporary logs if you had one 2 or two, and what is your feeling as far as the 3 numbers? Are they about right, excessive?

4 You know, are you surprised that there was 5 as fe was there is, or what is your --

6 . I would say that they are 7 probably excessive.

8 MR. BARBER: Okay. And that is based on?

9 2 Based on where we are at. And 10 I think that we do start temporary logs a lot quicker 12 than we used to. You just used to rely on the 12 operator actually going out there and doing what he 13 was supposed to do. Now you have to document it more 14 thoroughly. So that is what we try and do.

15 MR. BARBER: Can you give me examples of 16 some things that have temporary logs on them right 17 now?

18 - Right now, there is.a problem 19 with the Unit 2 hydrogen dryer, and so we have got 20 them doing random checking, and twice a shift checks 21 on the alarm panel to make sure that another alarm has 22 not come in, because there is no reflex capability.

23 MR. BARBER: Okay. So is the concern with 24 the reflash, or what is the specific concern with the 25 dryer? It's just not functioning properly?

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A

1 ý ONRight. There is maintenance 2 issues with it. it needs parts.

3 MR. BARBER: It needs parts?

4 Yes.

5 MR. BARBER: Has maintenance been good 6 about supporting these kinds of things? I mean, 7 presumably, most of the things that you are talking 8 about are -- there is some equipment malfunction or 9 deficiency, and the temporary logs are to increase the 10 monitoring of whatever it is.

11 I If the WIN team can get it, it 12 will get fixed somewhat expeditiously; whereas, if it 13 falls into the program, it may take a little longer.

14 MR. BARBER: How long will it take if it -

15 16 ]Oh, it could be a month.

17 MR. BARBER: A month?

• Yes.

18 19 MR. BARBER: Okay. Is there anything else 20 that stands out in your mind as far as like other 21 equipment deficiencies that are being monitored by 22 temporary logs? Is there anything else like that?

23 im" IThere is a monitoring of the 24 river water temperature, because the point on Unit 2 25 doesn't work. Unit 2, if the point is not working on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 the computer, you have to log it every hour.

2 MR. BARBER: Okay.

3 And they have been doing that 4 for quite a while, because there is design issues with 5 that.

6 MR. BARBER: The nuclear program operators 7 have been doing that?

8 No, the control room operators 9 are doing that.

10 MR. BARBER: All right. So they have to 11 do what, go to a different point or something?

12 Yes. They have to go to the 13 Unit I control room and get it off their computer, 14 because theirs still works.

15 MR. BARBER: Okay. Anything that is more 16 significant from an operation of the plant standpoint?

17 No. Most of the additional 18 reading logs that last for any duration are not really 19 significant. Things are just more or less 20 compensating for the inability to get things fixed.

21 MR. BARBER: Okay. How about work 22 arounds? Do you have a lot of work arounds?

23 .* j I have not looked at the list 24 in a while. I know that there is some out there, but 25 r-NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 MR. BARBER: Burdens?

2 jBurdens, yes. The same thing.

3 MR. BARBER: Okay. Have you been involved 4 with any significant plant issues recently, within the 5 last 6 months or a year? I mean, is there things that 6 have come up on your shift that were like either plant 7 trips, or equipment problems, or --

8 ,. Well, I had that thing in July 9 where we lost half the switch yard.

10 MR. BARBER: You lost half the switch 11 yard?

12 July 29th, and I think you 13 were there.

14 MR. BARBER: I was there.

15 I was behind you.

16 MR. BARBER: You were?

17 Yes.

18 MR. BARBER: Okay. What did you think of 19 that event as far as the way the shift handled it, and 20 what the long term corrective action was to address 21 that?

22 1 thought we got through it 23 and fortunately there were no complications. So it 24 was a rather clean trip. And you would characterize 25 it was clean other than the fact that the diesels NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 ended up (inaudible). But from a shift response, I 2 thought we did fine.

3 MR. BARBER: Did you have any concerns or 4 issues with the way the equipment performed as far as 5 did everything operate the way that it was expected?

6 -] Yes. And I am darn glad of 7 that, too, you know. That could have been complicated 8 when you lost all that power, and you start -- and any 9 time you lose power, things can go a lot worse. All 10 the diesels started, and thee diesels ran for the 11 duration.

12 MR. BARBER: Did you watch the restoration 13 at all?

14 jMost of it.

15 MR. BARBER: Did you see what happened 16 when the diesels were taken off the --

17 Yes 18 MR. BARBER: Did that surprise you?

19 jj Initially.

20 MR. BARBER: And for the record why don't 21 you explain what happened?

22 N 1 Well, when we stopped the 23 diesel, we didn't expect the vital bus breaker, in-24 feed breaker, to close in. But after we thought about 25 it, we knew that the other station power transformer NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I.

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1 was dead and it did what it was supposed to do.

2 MR. BARBER: Okay. Anything else besides 3 that event? Were there any other issues that came up?

4 j7 Recently?

5 MR. BARBER: Well, within the last few 6 months or so.

7 "1ij No, none.

8 MR. BARBER: Was there a problem with the 9 feed reg weld when you guys were involved with the 10 jets?

11 Yes. Thanks.

12 MR. BARBER: And what was that about?

13 The 14VF 19 feet reg guide 14 apparently jammed, and we went through a process to 15 try and evaluate what the problem could be. We 16 started with all the controls issues, and kind of 17 trouble-shot them and eliminated them one by one, and 18 finally came to the conclusion that the valve was 19 jammed.

20 MR. BARBER: Okay. Were you satisfied 21 with how long it took to get to that conclusion?

22 j I would have liked to have 23 seen that, and I didn't think that it would last all 24 day like that, because I was on nights, and left in 25 the morning. And I was surprised that it took until NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 the afternoon.

2 But it was a thorough evaluation and they 3 looked at everything else that it could be and then it 4 came down to that.

5 MR. BARBER: Did you get any feedback on 6 that event? I mean, did anybody talk to you about 7 what the time frames, and either they were satisfied 8 or had some concerns with how long things were taking?

9 J Nothing formal. I mean, we 10 discussed it among ourselves. I never got anything.

12 MR. BARBER: Did ROs, and the control 12 operators, was there any discussion with them, or INC, 13 and did anybody have any concerns about, hey, the 14 valve is stuck. Why don't we just do what we need to 15 do?

16 We knew that the valve was not 17 responding, and whether it was stuck, or whether it 18 was not getting the right control signal was 19 indeterminate in the beginning. And with the digital 20 feed, and with all the microprocessing, it is kind of 21 hard to determine what kind of signal is getting out 22 to the valve.

23 I mean, we used to have old positions that 24 we could go out there, and you could see the air 25 signal coming to the valve, but with these new NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 positioners, we can't tell anything.

2 And unfortunately there was a technician 3 who used to be in what they used to have as a 4 dedicated group to valve repair, and so he was one of 5 the more experienced AOB mechanics, and he was going 6 through a thought process to try and determine if it 7 was or not.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And who was that?

9 ° .." His name is 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you on shift 11 when the problems started?

12 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then you turned 14 it over to the day shift you are saying?

• Yes.

15 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then where is the 17 time delay that you say you were surprised that it 18 took? What specifically took too long in your mind?

19 9 The engineering process, and 20 I forget what they call it, but to eliminate all 21 possibilities, and here is what it could be.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Troubleshooting?

23 Yeah, like a troubleshooter.

24 They have a name for it.

25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that took a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 whil1e?

2 wIt took a while, and it will 3 be when you get two engineers in a room debating what 4 it could be.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that what the 6 cause of that was, was the trouble shooting segment?

7 Pretty much. I mean, that is 8 my understanding. That had not started when I left, 9 and it went pretty much through the day.

10 MR. BARBER: Was there any operability 11 issues with that valve?

12 In the end, yeah, there was 13 when they found out that it was jammed and would not 14 close.

15 MR. BARBER: And what is the operability A16 concern?

17 Just the fact that you isolate 18 that generator if you get a trip.

19 MR. BARBER: Okay. Is there a tech spec 20 that covers that?

21 22 I Yes, a poorly written one, but 23 MR. BARBER: Okay. Is it -- why do you 24 say it i s poorly written?

25 77 Well, the tech spec that they NEAL R. GROSS /4 1 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 ended up going into is for just this all state 2 protection system, and it requires you to declare the 3 whole system inoperable. It does not break it down to 4 a component level. So it is far more restrictive than 5 it really has to be.

6 I mean, if you have one malfunctioning 7 component, you shouldn't have to say that the whole 8 system from the initiation signal, and all the way 9 through to the final action, is inoperable.

10 MR. BARBER: Was there a tech spec 11 specific to the feeder reg valve?

12 No. And that is the problem, 13 and if you had one, it wouldn't be as limiting. What 14 they told me is that the -- what do you call it, that 15 the advanced tech specs or revised tech specs.

16 MR. BARBER: Per standard tech specs?

17 . Right, it gives us 72 hours8.333333e-4 days <br />0.02 hours <br />1.190476e-4 weeks <br />2.7396e-5 months <br /> to 18 get to the (inaudible). And where in ours it just 19 gives 6 hours6.944444e-5 days <br />0.00167 hours <br />9.920635e-6 weeks <br />2.283e-6 months <br />.

20 MR. BARBER: Okay.

21 And again it is not as far 22 reaching as -- I mean, those tech specs were written 23 in the '60s. Things are a little different today.

24 MR. BARBER: Right. Right. You said 25 there wasn't one for the valve specific, and would it NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS M

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1 considered a containment isolation valve?

2 No, it is a feeder reg guide 3 isolation valve, and not a containment isolation 4 valve.

5 MR. BARBER: Is there a separate 6 containment isolation valve?

7 Yes.

8 MR. BARBER: So based on that then, that 9 containment isolation valve spec wouldn't apply?

10 Right.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was there anything 12 specifically for feed water isolation or is that the 13 thing that you are saying was part of the solid state 14 protection system?

15 Right, and it only looks at 16 the solid state protection system automatic actuation 17 signal.

18 MR. BARBER: Okay.

19 And the whole signal was good, 20 but it was just that the final act -- and there is 21 other things with that, too, other valves that go 22 close.

23 MR. BARBER: Okay. All right. I don't 24 think I have anything more on that. Do you have 25 anything?

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: No, but what you were 2 doing was offering or asking if there were any 3 incidents that came up on your shift, or anything for 4 you to get involved in handling, and the BF-19 issue 5 was one that jogged your memory.

6 Do you have anything else on that? Not on 7 that incident, but any other incidents that you can 8 think of?

9 -* 3 Like I said, I am not good at 10 recalling, and if you give me some feed, I can 11 elaborate.

12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have anything 13 else on that?

14 MR. BARBER: Do you know anything about 15 any kind of an ISI issue or circumstance where there 16 was problems with valves, maybe with leakage, or 17 something like that, that was not properly addressed?

18 Maybe safety injection valves or charging system 19 valves, i.e., safety injection?

20 L Check valve leakage you're 21 saying?

22 MR. BARBER: Yes, check valve, or maybe 23 bin inlet or outlet valves? Do you recall anything 24 like that?

25 j* A while ago, yeah, there was.

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1 MR. BARBER: And what was that about?

2 It was a packing leakage on a 3 bin outlet valve.

4 MR. BARBER: Okay.

5 And what we were doing testing 6 on quite a frequent basis.

7 MR. BARBER: And what was the concern 8 there about the leakage?

9 Lj I am trying to remember. Just 10 that it was elevated.

11 MR. BARBER: Is this the --

12 jJ. That one I don' t remember 13 good.

14 MR. BARBER: -- leakage from --

15 It was an SJ-12, I think it 16 was, on two sides.

17 MR. BARBER: And what is the program that I8 covers that, that addresses that? Isn't there a 19 program that addresses that?

20 L7 a .j There is an IST program that 21 is, SAP-51 for moderate leakage outside the 22 containment and that would be in there.

23 MR. BARBER: And that is a unique program, 24 right? I mean, that is something that is mandated by 25 Section 6 of the tech specs isn't it?

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1 j.W Right. And the SAR, right, 2 the design basis limits.

3 MR. BARBER: Okay. And how was that 4 addressed to your recollection? Were the valves 5 actually repaired or what would happen with that?

6 I am trying to remember.

7 Sorry. It was a while ago.

8 MR. BARBER: Were you involved in it at 9 all?

10 No. Again, it was --

11 MR. BARBER: Well, did this stuff ever 12 happen on your shift?

13 Those two did get cited. I 14 went for a good time there with nothing happening, you 15 know.

16 MR. BARBER: You were lucky, huh?

17 It goes in cycles, you know.

18 Once you get in there, and stand back, because more 19 is coming. It is funny how it works, and that was 20 something that I wasn't really --- and I knew that 21 there was an issue out there, and they changed the 22 frequency of doing it.

23 MR. BARBER: Okay.

24 J And then we went to the DCPU 25 because the valves used to be open and now the valves NEAL R.GROSS(

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1 are closed. So, to eliminate that.

2 MR. BARBER: Okay. Have you ever been 3 exposed to any interactions with senior managers at 4 the -either 5 surrounding the start up or the shutdown, where you 6 felt like they were encouraging you to do something to 7 move the plant, either get the plant started up 8 sooner, or --

9 Not on a one to one basis.

10-i.

10 MR. BARBER: No?

II

..........

No.

12 MR. BARBER: Do you recall anything 13 related to maybe a start up years ago, where there was 14 a problem either with the stat or the rotor of the 15 main generator? There was some planned activity, and 16 the rotors were being put back in place, and then the 17 rotor shifted or dropped, and damaged either the rotor 18 bars or starter bars, and they had to be extracted?

19 20 MR. BARBER: And some repair activity had 21 to take place? The primary plant was in a position to 22 be started up, but was being held up, and so there was 23 some packing material that was put on the main turbine 24 glands? Do you remember that?

25 Yes, to draw a vacuum.

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1 MR. BARBER: To draw a vacuum. And then 2 there were other limits, like a steam pressure limit 3 in the main steam header, like a hundred pounds, and 4 there were some other things to the gland seal system, 5 and some alignments that had to be specially made?

6 Were you on shift when that was taking place?

7 Well, it went for quite a 8 while.

9 MR. BARBER: Okay.

10 And I had talked to the 11 turbine engineer, because I am thefor the 12 turbine.

13 MR. BARBER: Okay.

14 And he pretty much assured me 15 that it was a workable thing, between him and the 16 maintenance guy that was the maintenance supervisor 17 for the turbine. And it realistically did work out.

18 MR. BARBER: Okay. Well, they were 19 worried about what the turbine 7- their focus was on 20 the turbine and what the capabilities of the turbine 21 were, and what the design limits of the turbine were, 22 and what the parameters were?

23 R1 t.

24 MR. BARBER: What about the primary plant?

25 3 Again, there is a reluctance NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 on senior management's part to come up on the 2 atmosphere dump outs, and that was not there before.

3 MR. BARBER: Okay. Well, isn't part of 4 the reason was or is because the steam dumps, the 5 normal steam dumps didn't really work properly? I 6 mean, if you backtracked before the dual unit 7 shutdown, like in '95?

8 Yes, you would use the 9 atmospherics without even hesitating.

10 MR. BARBER: And did the steam dumps even 11 work then?

IoBarely.

12 13 MR. BARBER: What was your first choice 14 though?

15 You could work on them 16 manually to take some of the load off the 17 atmospherics.

18 MR. BARBER: Okay.

19 j I mean, you could just crack 20 them open and dump steam to the condenser that way.

21 It didn't work really well in automatic.

22 MR. BARBER: Okay. So there was kind of 23 an inherent preference to use the 24 The atmospherics.

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1 the SM-10s, prior to the '95 time frame, and then 2 coming out of the bull unit outage, the steam dumps 3 were --

4 Let me think.

5 MR. BARBER: fairly thoroughly 6 repaired and so there was really no reason to use the 7 SM-10s after that?

8 -] They did modifications on 9 that, and we did use them on occasion prior to that.

10 MR. BARBER: Okay.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Where is the 12 reluctance then? When does that start?

13 97 I guess it is the 14 dependability of the steam generators, and risking 15 having an off-site release if you do get a tube leak 16 while you are blowing the atmospherics.

17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What time frame 18 though? You are saying --

19 MR. BARBER: That was the first time that 20 I heard it at.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So that is going back 22 pre-'97?

23 I:0 It was '95, or '96, yeah.

24 When we started up coming out of restart, and I guess 25 that is when we experienced it somewhere. ,

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And just going back 2 a bit, but when Scott asked you about any 3 * *np:* ... put regarding 4 startups and so forth, you --

5 They would not deal directly 6 with me.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Not one to one, 8 right?

9 No.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have any other 11 incidents that come to mind on that? If not directly 12 to you, then what was the direction that you were 13 getting?

14 Just to proceed, you know, as 15 I saw fit.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Nothing that 17 you disagreed with?

18 No, not that I recall. And if 19 it was something that was that dramatic, I am sure 20 that it would stand out.

21 MR. BARBER: Have you ever had an instance 22 where you have been on shift where you just felt like 23 I can't believe that I am doing this or I am being 24 asked to do this, whether it was from those, whether 25 it was from senior management or AONs, or ops NEAL R. GROSS L COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS ,.

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1 management? Have you ever had a situation like that 2 where you were just like, you know, what are we doing?

3 . 0 1 Not recently.

4 MR. BARBER: Okay. Not recently?

5 j\ Well, not recently, not in the 6 past few years. You know, in the past few years.

7 MR. BARBER: Okay.

8 I think I ave a good working 9 relationship ---- __ used to be a 10 I on my shift, and I used to 11 work with him for 5 or 6 years pretty closely.

12 MR. BARBER: All right. So you have never 13 like been disgusted with where the plant has been 14 directed to go or where you have been asked to put the 15 plant?

16 Myself? No. They would not 17 do anything without a good reason, and their reasons 18 aren't usually because I want to get this done. It is 19 -- you know.

20 MR. BARBER: Well, have you ever had a 21 situation where you felt like you were weighing like 22 production and safety in the balance, and you said, 23 well, there is more of a push on the production side 24 than there had been in the past?

25 That if we do this, then we can move the NEAL R. GROSSAU COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 outage ahead by this amount, or we can start the 2 clean-up sooner, or we can limit our shutdown time, or 3 things like that?

i Sure.

4 5 MR. BARBER: Have you notice more of that 6 recently?

7 I No. No, that has always been 8 there.

9 MR. BARBER: Always?

10 Yes, especially 40 days into 11 a 35 day outage, you know.

12 MR. BARBER: How about this recent -- what 13 was it, Unit 2, the Unit 2 outage?

14 Well, you have the schedule 15 going in, and then you have problems that arise that 16 kind of throw your schedule off. So then you have to 17 start looking at alternative paths, right, to at least 18 try to keep up with where you are at.

19 MR. BARBER: Were you involved with the 20 problem with surface water, and where there was a 21 voltage testing was supposed to be done to set a valve 22 up, and then after that you were supposed to start up 23 the system, and it was done out of sequence and the 24 valve was operated, and the valve drove through the operator? *k* /

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• Yes.

1 2 MR. BARBER: Were you involved with that 3 at all, or did you hear about that?

4 iJ Yeah, the guy that was in 5 charge of that job usually works for me, and it was a 6 communications thing. It was the way that he 7 perceived it, or the way that he told me.

8 MR. BARBER: Well, isn't that a sequence 9 issue? I mean, that you have got the system start-up 10 or system event prior to setting the valve up? Isn't ii that what happened? I mean, that is more than just --

12 jLJWell, the whole thing was the 13 guy releasing the tag that was choking the valve, and 14 his impression that it is good to go.

15 MR. BARBER: Okay. So that is where the 16 communications error was?

17 -I Right. That's the way that 18 I got it.

19 MR. BARBER: Isn't there a requirement to 20 check the package, the work package, or whatever it 21 is, to see if in fact the work is (inaudible)?

22 The tags were off. He knew 23 the work wasn't done-done, and he knew there was still 24 work to be completed.

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1 else like that during the recent outage that you are 2 aware of?

3 0No.

4 MR. BARBER: Well, that's not that long 5 ago, and that is only within the last couple of 6 months.

7 It runs together.

8 MR. BARBER: Okay.

9 MR. WINGFIELD: Can I ask a question?

10 11 MR. WINGFIELD: You said that the work was 12 still being required to be done, and work that didn't 13 require the boundary isolation.

14 Ij The valve was free to be 15 operated, but the limits weren't set yet, and the 16 maintenance supervisor from my perspective should have 17 never released the motor and given them the ability to 18 cycle the valve with the motor if he had not set it up 19 yet.

20 And I will give it to you and you can 21 operate the hand load, because the handle won't work.

22 Don't give them the motor if you can do it 23 (inaudible), because that would be the inclination to 24 do I do physical work or do I push the button and the 25 valve works.

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1 -Right. Thanks.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you -- and this is 3 going to go back a little bit, and so you will find 4 this one interesting, but a couple of years ago and 5 I think this is when 6 but do you recall a situation where the 7 shift managers as a whole got together and objected to 8 the direction ofKj and it what it had to 9 do generally with was the time that it took you to 10 make an assessment, in terms of operability decisions, 11 and how much time you were taking.

12 The idea was tha wanted to 13 extend that time frame and build in additional tests 14 and things into the assessment period, but the shift 15 managers were more comfortable with the more brief, 16 and this is the way I see it and this is the way that 17 I am going to go.

18 Do you recall as a whole that the shift 19 managers got together and presented their position 20 regarding some direction from . It was 21 enough to make a wave so that everybody kind of got on 22 board and said this is the way that we are going to be 23 viewed on this issue?

24 JNo, I don't remember that one.

25 I probably was not directly involved.

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41 1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you working here 2 in that time frame?

3 Mki Yes.

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: About 3 years ago?

5 Yes.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Straight through and 7 no breaks or anything?

8 If you are on vacation or out 9 in the training center, you are kind of isolated.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you had long 11 extended periods in the training center?

12 j Two weeks.

11n 7 1

14 extent of it?

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It would seem that 17 something like this would make an impression?

18 Start some discussion?

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes, and there would 20 be some discussions.

21 I -remember where he was 22 looking at the difference between operability and non-23= ýýonfar-ma-nee,e--and--d-*t-he f--f-er-ence--s=--the-reý---re~ merahe-r-U It is not-i-npErab-1e-- It'sj-ist--

24 - -that daiscussion. 5-- non-ccdo-for-mihg. I -remember-that-f rom-one-instance.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you recall if that 2 caused --

3 :It was a bolting thing. The 4 class of bolting that was being used.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So it was tied to a 6 particular incident or a particular problem?

7 es.

8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you recall that it 9 caused some level of concern among the shift managers?

10 Not that I recall. I mean, it 11 was a different perspective than we usually took. But 12 somebody with a strong engineering background could 13 see that.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you recall that 15 the fact that it was different, do you recall the 16 outcome of that? Did the shift managers get in line 17 with his way of thinking, or did they go the other 18 way?

19 As I recall, yes. The bolting 20 material was essentially the same, and it was just the 21 classification difference. But the function design, 22 or that type of thing, was adequate.

23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But in terms of time 24 frames, and that it was purportedly affecting the 25 length of time that it took to make these decisions, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 and I don't recall that it was particular to one 2 incident. It was just in general.

3

• 4 In general?

4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes. That he was 5 affecting or pushing for the amount of time that it 6 took you to make a call on operability issues.

7 Well, 91.18 pretty much says 8 that you can't override that. I mean, it is right 9 there and commensurate with the seriousness of the 10 situation.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you recall any 12 challenges to that? Do you recall anything that 13 pushed up against that, and where --

14 Not that I was involved in.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you don't 16 have any recollection of where something like this 17 might have been?

18 No, not that one. And again 19 if I was not directly involved, I probably was not 20 included. Again, even so, I mean, at times I will be 21 off for 7 days, too.

22 MR. BARBER: Have you ever been involved 23 with shift meetings or meetings between shift managers 24 on some period of the SOP? Don't you routinely have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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44 1

2 MR; BARBER: Is there a certain day of the 3 week, or a certain --

4 jj It is usually Thursdays. It 5 varies, depending upon --

6 MR. BARBER: And in any of these meetings, 7 and let's say the more recent ones within the last few 8 years or so, do you recall any kind of discussions 9 about senior management in the organization pushing us 10 a certain direction, and not feeling comfortable with 11 that, or wanting to do something a little different?

12 - ,something I always want to do something

.~ .~

L 14 MR. BARBER: But how about collectively as 15 agver--rfuepl-?a-y-keu-seno anagement as 16 a group, or as you as one of the many members of the 17 group, have you ever felt a situation where senior 18 management is saying, hey, we want to do this and we 19 want to move the plant along, and we want to take this 20 action?

21- -Have you ever been a part of a group that 22 said, well, we understand what you want to do, but we 24 experience, and our ability, ourlilgsu-ecause-we- -

25 _ _are a l-SROlicenseda-nd ourresponsi-bi-lity? '

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1 Have you ever felt like there has been a 2 discussion of that sort, where you were like we really 3 need to challenge management or at least kind of stay 4 together on things?

5 .Not that I can recall.

6 MR. BARBER: Okay.

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Without going so far 8 back as to the 1996-1997 time frame, and in more 9 recent years, you have had some management changes, 10 and specifically this year, CNO and VP of operations, 11 but have you seen any effect on the change out in 12 those positions in the safety culture here on site?

13 Not that I could attribute to 14 that happening.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you seen any 16 changes in the safety culture, period?

17 I don't think so.

18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So you are not 19 noticing any changes and you are not noticing anything 20 that was brought about by the change in management, 21 either for the better or for the worse?

22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Do you have 24 any concerns regarding the culture as it exists on-25 site today? Do you have anything that either we have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 not asked you about or you would like to express?

2 -* About the safety culture?

3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right.

4  : Well, like I said, I think the 5 safety culture is good here, and I don't think --

6 there are people -- the way I see it working in some 7 cases is that there are people who are reluctant to 8 bring things up, but there is always somebody in the 9 group who isn't as reluctant. So he will take his 10 concern, and he will raise it.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What level are you 12 talking about?

13 On a bargaining unit level.

14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So the 15 operators?

16 1 don't think any of 17 would be afraid to throw something back at me, and I 18 don't think the NCO's would be.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. But at the LEN 20 level there might be somebody who is reluctant to 21 raise a concern?

22 Yes, and it is just a 23 personality thing.

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1 0  ;;.: Right.

2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And not for cause?

3 *Right. But there is enough 4 outspoken ones to pick it up and push it.

5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. The reluctance 6 that you are seeing, is there any basis for that?

7 No. I think it is just more 8 of an introverted personality.

9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.

10 It is just in society as a 11 whole that you see that, and I don't think we are any 12 segment of it that is different.

13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Some people are going 14 to be more comfortable and some people less so?

15 Sure. Sure.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And at the, let's 17 say, CRS level, do you see that across the board?

18

• j I don't. I don't think that 19 any of them would be afraid to raise a concern to 20 either me or anybody above me if they don't like my 21 answer.

22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And we covered 23 it earlier, but you kind of gave your perspective on 24 yourself and your peers, in terms of raising issues to 25 senior management?

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2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you seem 3 comfortable with doing that?

4 -I Oh, yes. Yes. I have no fear 5 of retaliation.

6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. You have been 7 here and you have a lot of experience that you are 8 speaking from.

9 Right.

10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And has your comfort 11 level always been the same?

12 Pretty much, yes, but I think 13 the rest of the organization has come along like I 14 said since restart.

15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Going back to '96 or 16 '97, or so?

17 Yes. It is a whole shift 18 within not just the working culture, but the whole 19 culture in society in general the way that I look at 20 it.

21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Do you have 22 anything further?

23 MR. BARBER: No 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Ted?

25 No.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Would you like to add 2 anything?

3 No. I think I told you 4 everything. Sorry that I could not be more specific.

5 But that is not my strength. If you could feed me 6 something, I could --

7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Well, when prompted, 8 you seemed to have some recollection of the detail.

9 I just have a few closing questions for you.

10 Sure.

11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have I or any other 12 NRC representative offered you any promises of reward 13 or threatened you in any manner in exchange for your 14 information today?

15 No.

16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you appeared 17 here freely and voluntarily?

18 Yes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And we don't 20 have anything else to add and so we will go off the 21 record, and I thank you for your time. It is 22 approximately 2:25 p.m.

23 (Whereupon, at 2:25 p.m., the interview 24 was concluded.)

25 ýýý C NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-051F Location: Salem, New Jersey were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.

Paul Intravia Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com