ML21225A706
| ML21225A706 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/09/2021 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NRC-1420 | |
| Download: ML21225A706 (60) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
33rd Regulatory Information Conference Technical Session - T12 Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: teleconference Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2021 Work Order No.: NRC-1420 Pages 1-57 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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33RD REGULATORY INFORMATION CONFERENCE (RIC)
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TECHNICAL SESSION - T12 INNOVATION, MODERNIZATION, AND ROADMAPS:
LOOKING FOR THE FUTURE FOR LONG-TERM OPERATION
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TUESDAY, MARCH 9, 2021
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The Commission met via Video Teleconference, at 1:30 p.m. EST, Louise Lund, Director of the Division of Engineering, Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research, and Anna Bradford, Director of the Division of New and Renewed Licenses, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, presiding.
PRESENT:
LOUISE LUND, Director, Division of Engineering, RES/NRC ANNA BRADFORD, Director, Division of New and Renewed Licenses, NRR/NRC NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 ALISON HAHN, Reactor Optimization and Modernization Team Lead, U.S. Department of Energy, Office of Nuclear Energy HEATHER FELDMAN, Director of Innovation, Electric Power Research Institute MARK SARTAIN, Vice President, Nuclear Engineering and Fleet Support, Dominion Energy NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 P R O C E E D I N G S 1:30 p.m.
MS. BRADFORD: Welcome, everybody, to this afternoon's session of day two of the RIC. This is session T12. And it's entitled Innovation, Modernization, and Roadmaps - Looking to the Future for Long-Term Operation.
My name is Anna Bradford. And I'm the Director of the Division of New and Renewed Licenses in the NRC's Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
And before we start our panel discussion, I would like to go ahead kick off this session with a brief video. Can we play the video, please?
(Video playing.)
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for playing that. And I'd like to thank the U.S.
Department of Energy for that video. It's a little dated now. It stated that six reactors have applied for license extensions. And at this point, we're now up to ten reactors at five sites.
So, as I mentioned, this session is titled Innovation, Modernization, and Roadmaps - Looking to the Future for Long-Term Operation. We have a great panel assembled today, and I think we'll have a lively NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 discussion about the lifespan of nuclear power plants and are looking towards the future for existing plants.
We will have some time for questions from all the attendees at the end of this session. So please use the question function in the Zoom app to submit your questions for the panel.
So I'd like to start off by first asking our panelists to introduce themselves and maybe offer one key thought, a message they have about today's topic. Louise, would you like to go first?
MS. LUND: Yes, thank you. My name is Louise Lund. I'm the Director of the Division of Engineering in NRC's Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research.
My division is responsible for aging management research and research also for the digital instrumentation and control portion of the plant modernization.
My division is also the primary interface with DOE's Light Water Reactor Sustainability program and with EPRI's programs related to long-term operation.
So my thought is, is that there is a connection between the research related to aging NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 management in support of long-term operation and the proposed plant upgrades, which we are collectively calling plant modernization in this session.
Both of these topics are vital to ensuring the continuing safe and viable operation of nuclear plants out to 80 years.
As a safety-focused regulator, we have been engaging with both DOE and EPRI on these topics for quite a while to support the regulatory decisions that NRC may have before them over the next few years.
Thanks.
MS. BRADFORD: All right. Thank you, Louise. Alison, would you like to introduce yourself next?
MS. HAHN: Good afternoon. I'm Alison Hahn, the Reactor Optimization and Modernization Team Lead at the Department of Energy's Office of Nuclear Energy.
Within our office, we have the Light Water Reactor Sustainability program, which is our office's main programmatic activity to enhance the long-term viability and competitiveness of the existing fleet.
And typically the program works to enhance plant performance, reduce operating costs, and increase NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 revenue opportunities in the areas such as plant modernization, flexible plant operation and generation, risk-informed systems analysis, materials research, and physical security.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you.
Heather, would you like to go next?
MS. FELDMAN: Thanks, Anna. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. My name is Heather Feldman at the Electric Power Research Institute. EPRI is a non-for-profit organization that conducts research and development on the end-to-end electric power system.
At EPRI, I lead a team that's working on R&D that accelerates innovative and proven solutions for modernization, as well as for advanced reactor deployment. At EPRI, we conduct research and development and thought leadership for a global clean energy future.
And when I think about our topic today, it really centers around the fact that nuclear power provides more than 55 percent of the carbon-free electricity in the United States.
The energy system of the future is going to be different than it is today. The net zero clean NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 energy commitments that we're hearing about in the 2050 timeframe are really going to shape the energy system.
So the question becomes, how do we get to that future. And long-term operations of the existing fleet can be a bridge to that clean energy future.
So, as I think about our R&D efforts to enable long-term operations of nuclear power plants, the effort started more than ten year ago. And the success really required coordination and collaboration with the organizations that are on the panel today, as well as others like NEI, and there are more.
In addition to that, we had to do the research to have the right information at the right time to enable business decisions.
So we were laser-focused on understanding degradation in the hard to replace or expensive to replace components. And we were focused on transitioning our guidance from being time-based to being aging management in our engineering parameter base. So all of that is a bridge to the future.
But we also have to think about the economics. We also have to factor in the market changes that we're seeing today. Looking forward to the discussion with the panel.
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8 MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you, Heather.
And last, but not least, Mark.
MR. SARTAIN: Thank you very much, Anna.
Excuse me. I'm Mark Sartain. I'm the Vice President of Nuclear Engineering and Fleet Support for Dominion Energy, which is an electric and gas utility headquartered in Richmond, Virginia.
I have all of our plant engineers at our four operating reactors, as well as our corporate engineering staff, regulatory affairs, and one group that's very applicable to the topic we're talking about today, our subsequent license renewal project team reports to me.
And over the last several years, I've had really the great pleasure of being the industry executive liaison or sponsor to EPRI's Long-Term Operations Research Integration Committee.
It's really been in place for over a decade.
And it has facilitated a lot of the research topics that we're going to be talking about today, as well as the plant modernization efforts. So it's very timely that we're having this conversation today.
And I get an opportunity to speak to many groups about this particular topic. And one of the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 items I emphasize when I do that is we have a very robust and thorough process at our fingertips for extending the licenses of our nuclear units.
It's very robust in the safety and environmental reviews. And once we get a renewed license, it's very well based and documented.
But I emphasize the fact that we can get a license to operate until 80 years. But if we don't keep our units competitive, not only safe and reliable, but economically competitive with other forms of energy, whether that's renewables or storage or any other types, we can have that license to operate to 80 years, but we'll get priced out of the market if we aren't exercising our obligation to do it economically as well.
So the four or five topics we're going to talk about today really are a great blend in order to accomplish that with very rigorous, sound, robust technical topics, as well as the economic piece of that.
So I'm looking forward to today's discussions. Thank you.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you, Mark.
And thank all of you for those thoughts.
So, as we touched on, this session will NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 explore existing technical work that supports long-term operation, or LTO, and subsequent license renewal, or SLR. And research and implementation within each of your organizations have moved from a focus on SLR readiness towards proactively monitoring and evaluating aging management programs for nuclear power plant structures, systems, and components, as well as supporting needed digital upgrades and modernization of existing plant control systems.
So this session will outline some of the longer term research efforts that are important to maintaining and optimizing the effectiveness of aging management programs throughout the life of the plant, as well as to implementing proposed upgrades.
As mentioned, we all know the NRC is now accepting, reviewing, and has already granted some subsequently renewed licenses to operate to 80 years.
There are some technical issues for which additional research can reduce uncertainties, and thus the burden on applicants, based on a better understanding of the degradation mechanisms and improved inspection capabilities.
So the SLR guidance documents and associated aging management programs are living NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 documents. And they will change based on operating experience, lessons learned from review of SLR applications, and LTO research results, hopefully with new and improved inspection methods.
So, Louise, although I know the foundation of the long-term operations research program, as someone mentioned, Heather maybe, it's been going on for ten years or longer. But can you give us some background on how it was established?
MS. LUND: Sure. Yeah, it's always good to step back and think about how did we get here. And beginning about 2004, the NRC assembled a team of international experts to identify degradation mechanisms that could occur in the primary system and high safety significant secondary reactor systems in plants for operation up to 40 years.
They produced the Proactive Materials Degradation Assessment, and because that's a long term, they just called it a PMDA report. And, you know, for those of you that may want to look it up, it's NUREG/CR-6923.
And it followed the Phenomena Identification and Ranking Table Technique. And, of course, we always use acronyms. So that's also known NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 as the PIRT process.
So the findings from the PMDA report were later used as the basis, along with operating experience and other observations, to develop Revision 2 of the Generic Aging Lessons Learned report, which is also called the GALL report, which was published in 2010.
And the GALL report, NUREG-1801, formed part of the technical basis for revising the standard review plan for license renewals from 40 to 60 years.
And, you know, GALL is really used as guidance, you know, for a lot of the applicants, you know, putting together their applications.
Because of common interest in preparing for subsequent license renewal, NRC and DOE put into place a memorandum of understanding to cooperate on research activities related to long-term operation.
One of the results was a joint NRC/DOE activity to expand the earlier PMDA analyses to address materials degradation out to 80 years, and evaluate a broader range of systems, structures, and components, including core internals of piping systems, reactor pressure vessel, electric cables, and concrete and civil structures.
And the results are summarized in one of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 the Agency's reports, NUREG/CR-7153. The CR is contractor report.
The report for this Expanded Proactive Materials Degradation Analysis, of course another acronym is EMDA, identified a few key technical areas where research could fill knowledge gaps related to the aging management of safety significant components to 80 years of operation.
Effectively carrying out these research objectives and implementing their findings has required technical cooperation among the DOE, the NRC, EPRI, and the nuclear industry. We developed joint aging management roadmaps to coordinate the cooperative research. Although as a regulator, we maintain independence in decision-making based on the research results. That also helps us to at least ensure that we're not doing redundant work, because it is so expensive after all.
So, over to, back to you, Anna.
MS. BRADFORD: Thank you, Louise. So, if other panel members have anything to talk about with respect to that. Alison, I know you mentioned DOE has been involved with this for a while. But do you have any comments about sort of the beginning of the program NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 and how it got started and why?
MS. HAHN: So the Light Water Reactor Sustainability Program began around the same time as the EMDA was developed. And the researchers at our national labs focused on the work identified in the EMDA, specifically that foundational knowledge, such as the science that drives the materials degradation, structural integrity.
And the roadmaps that we've mentioned have been very beneficial to the three organizations, EPRI, NRC, and the DOE ourselves, to ensure that the work that we're performing is complementary across the organizations.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you. And, Mark, did you have a comment on that topic?
MR. SARTAIN: Yes. Thanks, Anna. I mentioned earlier that I had the distinct honor of being the industry executive sponsor for EPRI's LTO Research Integration Committee. And one thing that that demonstrated to me was a great collaboration among all the parties.
Obviously, we all have our very specific role, NRC as the independent regulator that also conducts research, the research lab, DOE, and the other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 research labs that, and EPRI that conduct the research, and then organizations like utility, a licensee such as ourselves, or vendors or other parties that were part of that.
And what was really impactful to me was, we all maintained our responsibilities and our roles, but it was an excellent collaborative environment in terms of taking stakeholder input and feedback across the board.
And as you mentioned earlier, the GALL SLR and the standard review plan and the other NEI documents that came out as a result of all that were great products that took into consideration all the parties' input and comments along the way.
So I just thought it was a model for how you conduct this type of research and come out with mutually beneficial products.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you, Mark.
How about Heather, any comments?
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah, and I'll echo some of those same comments as Alison and Mark in that when I reflect back on this overall effort, the early days were focused on really understanding the fundamentals.
EPRI put together a materials degradation NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 matrix, an MDM, that really enabled us to understand what do we know about materials, what do we need to learn about materials relative to what we are trying to do, in terms of operating beyond 60 years.
As Alison noted, the DOE was focused on the scientific research. EPRI was focused on the technical research and then taking that information and translating it into guideline documents that the owner operators could use, like Mark and his team at Dominion Energy.
You know, in addition to that, roadmaps were really keys to success. It was a way for the different teams to come together, talk about a specific topic, share ideas, make ideas like even better ideas.
So we also knew what our swim lanes were.
And we were able to be independent, allow the NRC to conduct independent assessments. It was a really just great example of how we can all coordinate and work together.
MS. BRADFORD: Very good. Thank you, Heather. And thanks to all of you. I think that provides some good context to what we're going to talk about next, which is some of the identified technical challenges to extending the operating life of the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 nuclear power plant.
So let's talk first about key reactor components, such as the reactor pressure vessel, or RPV, and its internal structures and main piping.
So, Alison, how has the DOE approached aging management for these metal components?
MS. HAHN: Of course. So, in the RPV area, we're looking to develop a multi-scale, multi-physics model that can extrapolate the in-service embrittlement data that we already have for extended life operations.
Right now the LWRS program, the researchers at Oak Ridge National Lab are working with UTSB and our industry stakeholders to develop a new transitioned temperature shift, a reduced order model, for evaluating that reactor pressure vessel at those extended operations.
They are also looking to quantify the late-blooming phases, harvest and test surveillance specimens from decommissioned plants, and quantify the nuclear flux effects to better assess those accelerated test reactor radiation.
We're also, we've also had a number of activities investigating internals and oxygenated stainless steels.
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18 Overall, again, they're working towards developing models that can help industry predict the extent of degradation and reduce the uncertainty in areas like IASCC, crack initiations for nickel-based alloys, environmentally assisted fatigue, and PIE for harvested baffle bolts.
And then on the other side, researchers in the LWRS program's plant modernization pathway are working with universities and industry partners to look at reactor piping monitoring.
They've developed a high resolution distributed fiber optics sensor that can cover very long stretches of piping with different geometries and miles of piping from a single location.
And if successful, this is an online monitoring technique that could reduce costs while still detecting that degradation at the earliest times and still alert operators that specific piping requires close inspection.
MS. BRADFORD: Great. Thank you.
Louise, can you say a little bit about what the NRC is doing about this?
MS. LUND: Sure. And, you know, along with what Alison was just mentioning, we've learned NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 a lot over the years about the, from the work that we've done in aging in metal components, and specifically the reactor pressure vessel and the internals.
And our current research is focused on providing assurance that these embrittlement effects continue to be appropriately managed.
And an area we work closely with EPRI and engage the nuclear industry on directly is the RPV surveillance programs. And these program utilize coupons that are radiated into the vessel over time to predict the amount of RPV embrittlement and ensure that degradation within each plant will continue to be effectively managed out to 80 years if the plant license goes to that term.
And we also have been conducting research for decades to understand degradation, reactor pressure vessel internal components.
Unlike the RPV, reactor pressure vessel research, which is largely concerned with just one degradation mechanism, there are a variety of degradation mechanisms that are relevant for the internals, depending on the specific component and the material used to fabricate that component. But generally speaking, you know, that's an area where the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 components are pretty highly irradiated.
For example, baffle bolt failures have been identified at several plants over the last few years.
And the initial susceptibility of these failures depend on the plant design, the plant operation, bolt material, and bolt design.
So, for susceptible bolts, the failure of progression starts with irradiation-induced changes in the microstructure that can lead to increased susceptibility to stress, corrosion, and cracking.
So it's the culmination of these and other research efforts over the years that has armed us with the knowledge to assure that these failures are mitigated effectively in the future.
And while learning more about material and component behavior within these highly irradiated environments is a longstanding goal, it often takes the combined efforts of multiple organizations to do research of highly irradiated materials, due to the cost and specialized facilities that are necessary.
So this is why close collaboration with our research partners from DOE and EPRI in areas such as this is vital. No one organization typically has the capabilities to address challenges such as this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 alone. So thanks, Anna.
MS. BRADFORD: Thank you, Louise.
Heather, how about EPRI's work in this area?
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah, you know, from an EPRI perspective in this area, we conducted research over the last ten or so years.
We also very much listened to and understood the operating experience that we're seeing out in the field and took all of that information into consideration as we made revisions and updates to our guidance documents. And those are the guidance documents that are used today to understand and manage the degradation that we would see in the existing fleet.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you. Mark, any thoughts from the licensee's perspective?
MR. SARTAIN: Yes. Thanks, Anna. I just would like to comment on how vital the things that Alison, Louise, and Heather just talked about. And the licensees, as myself, have been the great benefactors of all of that research.
And one really critical component to this when you're talking about the reactor vessel and vessel internals, as we're making decisions about extending the life of our units from 40 to 60, 60 to 80, and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 potentially even past that, a question that could come up is, at what point are you faced with deciding does the reactor vessel need to be, itself need to be replaced?
And certainly that would have a great bearing on whether we would be able to pursue license renewal beyond that particular time.
So the enormous amount of research into the vessel itself and all the various internal support structures that has provided a sound technical basis for continuing to operate those units up to 80 years has just been vital in our planning for maintaining this fleet as it currently operates.
So I want to thank all the previous speakers on the role that you've played to help the licensees in this regard.
MS. BRADFORD: All right. Thank you, Mark.
So why don't we move on? The next topic is concrete degradation and the damage to concrete that might occur from exposure to neutron and gamma radiation in heat, humidity, stress, et cetera in the plant environment.
And like metals, our regulations and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 associated research efforts are aimed at providing confidence that the structures can withstand design basis conditions with adequate margins.
And, Heather, EPRI's research results have been consolidated into reports. And I believe there are guidance documents used by the U.S. plants, as well as your international members. Is that correct? Can you tell us a little bit about that?
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah. Thanks, Anna. As we're talking through, whether it's the reactor vessel, reactor internals, concrete, or cable, this is all about aging management programs. And there's really several components to any aging management program.
They all start with understanding the degradation, and then establishing inspections and monitoring programs, doing assessments and evaluations when needed, and then having mitigation modernization in place when needed, and also repair and replacement techniques as options.
And so, as we look towards concrete, there is, the containment building is made out of concrete.
There's biological shielding around the reactor vessel that's concrete.
And so, when we started to think about NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 going, operating beyond 60 years, we wanted to understand some of the degradation mechanisms that we would anticipate seeing in that timeframe.
So one of those degradation mechanisms is the alkali-silica reaction. This is where the reactive silica in the aggregate reacts with ions that are in the core solution. And what forms is basically this gel. And it expands as it absorbs moisture and can create tensile stresses on the surrounding concrete, which can result in cracking.
And so, in order for us to understand this mechanism, we did some research. And we've developed a process. There are screening techniques that can be used to identify if this is happening, monitor it, and repair it if needed.
So, you know, it's a very simple three-level screening process. It includes doing plant walkdowns to look around and identify if you're seeing this type of degradation. There's some tests that can be done, of course, samples that can be pulled out of concrete. And then depending on what you're seeing there, you can take appropriate actions to make repairs to that area, for example, if needed.
So alkali-silica reaction was one area NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 where we spent some time doing some additional research.
Another area was around the biological shield surrounding the reactor vessel. And here the questions were really around the effect of radiation over time and temperature on this concrete.
And what we did here is we developed a general methodology that could be applied to structures such as the biological shield wall. We've demonstrated it doing a pilot study and have reports available that can be used to determine the time at which degradation might be expected in those areas.
So we've done a lot of research in the concrete area. It all boils down to the different elements of aging management programs and those elements being deployed effectively at the site.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thanks, Heather.
And, Mark, you mentioned the importance of aging management for the reactor pressure vessel. But what are your thoughts on concrete?
MR. SARTAIN: Yeah. Thank you, Anna.
This is -- I'm going to be a little bit redundant here.
But we've been able to take advantage of the research that Heather just spoke about in terms of concrete aging mechanisms, whether that's to alkali-silica reaction NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 or other degradation mechanisms.
And because we have submitted two applications for SLR for our Virginia stations, we were able to take advantage of that research as we developed the specific concrete aging management plans that were necessary for North Anna and Surrey power stations in Virginia.
Fortunately, we haven't seen any significant degradation in that area in the 45 or so years that Surrey has been operating. But it was critical in terms of getting that feedback into our aging management programs for those areas.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thanks, Mark.
Louise, do you want to talk for a moment about what the NRC is doing about ASR?
MS. LUND: Yes. Thanks for asking. The work that you've heard about from Heather, you know, we have been following very closely. But we've also been doing some confirmatory research of our own.
And we -- I think the program started around 2014 or 2015. And it's recently completed a multi-year experimental program at the National Institute of Standards and Technology. And it's included a combination of testing and modeling to study ASR effects NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 on nuclear concrete structures.
So we're very pleased and very excited that we will be putting out some reports on that in the near term, and that will I hope fill in any gaps and further the dialogue, you know, in that important topic.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thanks, Louise.
And, Alison, anything you wanted to add?
MS. HAHN: Yeah, just something real quick. For our ASR research, we've also gone back a few years looking at this.
We've got a large test specimen in partnership with a number of utilities looking at the reliability of various monitoring, sensing, and NDE techniques, including the vibro-acoustic modulation technique on a significantly large block specimens under accelerated conditions to evaluate its structural performance.
And then on the irradiation side of things, we're again working to develop a predictive methodology called the MOSAIC, Microstructure-Oriented Scientific Analysis of Irradiated Concrete, model for our stakeholders to use as they move forward into subsequent license renewals.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you. So why NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 don't we move on to a discussion around cables? In a commercial nuclear power plant, there's high, medium, and low voltage cables, both for electrical power and for instrumentation and control.
And those cables were typically installed during construction. And some may have limited access in an operating plant. So inspecting and maintaining those cables is a potential challenge for managing plant aging.
And, Louise, I know the NRC is overseeing cable aging research to quantify changes from exposure to heat and radiation. But can you elaborate on that a little bit?
MS. LUND: Yes, we had a program for actually a number of years, which we hope to finish up later next year or so. And it's on cable qualification and condition monitoring. That's the area that we're looking at.
And the NRC's research in this area is focused on refining methods for laboratory aging of electrical equipment that approximates in-service aging in nuclear power plants.
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29 practices are adequate and, you know, to identify suitable condition monitoring methods to monitor cable aging during long-term operation.
The NRC's current research projects have obtained new cables and some samples from cables that plants have replaced, which are so-called naturally aged cable samples. And both new and aged samples are being subjected to concurrent exposure to radiation and elevated temperature aging with humidity to approximate operating plant conditions.
So various condition monitoring techniques will be applied during and following aging protocols to identify techniques that could measure progression of aging effects.
And finally, the aged cables will be subjected to a simulated loss-of-coolant accident to determine their functional capability after exposure to a harsh environment for an extended period of time.
MS. BRADFORD: Thank you, Louise.
Heather, anything to add about cables?
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah, I'll just note that, you know, cables are divided into a couple of different categories, low voltage cables, high voltage cables.
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30 radiation effects are really important to those types of cables. And so we've got guidance in place that, of course, starts with a visual examination. There's some testing available to understand the health of those cables as well.
So medium voltage cable, water becomes important, so understanding if there is water near those cables. And then that follows with having a visual exam or walkdown of the facility. And again, we have testing available to understand the health of the cables.
Of course, in all of this, operating experience is something that's shared and then informs what we do in the aging management program for cables.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you. Alison, what about DOE's perspective on this?
MS. HAHN: Of course. So one appealing technology to target is that low cost continuous online monitoring cable systems as the alternative to manual intermittent testing.
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31 encapsulate a variety of degradation mechanisms across the spectrum.
One instance we're looking on as we go into the future is, as cables move and portions of cables are repaired and replaced, the need for understanding the aging performance of the cable system components, such as the splices and terminations, increases as well.
So that's something that we're going to be looking forward, looking towards in the future as well.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thanks. And, Mark, anything you want to add from the licensee's perspective on cables?
MR. SARTAIN: Yes. Thanks, Anna. Just I'll go back to a comment that you made when you kicked off this particular topic, in that during original plant engineering and construction, a lot of our high and medium voltage cables are direct buried in the ground or in duct banks or in concrete encasements, making them extraordinarily difficult to repair or replace.
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32 a particular area that does actually need cable replacement, gives us the opportunity to adequately plan and conduct that.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thanks. So I feel like all of those topics, you know, metal components, concrete, cables, all tie into the final topic that we wanted to be sure to touch on this session, which looks ahead to some proposed plant changes that are collectively referred to as plant modernization.
So I'd like to ask our panelists about plant modernization technologies and proposals to introduce them into nuclear power plants.
But, Mark, can you kind of explain how your utility is approaching the technology advancements becoming available in this area, and also just kind of what plant modernization is and what it means?
MR. SARTAIN: Sure. Thanks, Anna. I'll start by talking about a little bit of what's going on in the industry right now, and certainly, Alison on the LWRS and Heather with EPRI plant modernization program that we have in place can add to what I say here, but it really goes back a few years.
As all of us know that are in this particular business, we have over, probably since the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 middle 2015-2016 time frame, we've been very focused on performing activities that have a cost beneficial efficiency improvements to our stations.
We all know, and obviously, we take our nuclear safety reliability role very seriously, and that is job one. But it's also necessary for us to ensure that we operate and maintain the plants very cost effectively and very efficiently, so that we can preserve this asset in the electricity market that exists today, whether that's in the U.S. or around the world.
So, probably in the 2018 time frame, there was some dialogue within the industry to understand all the different entities that are involved in what we call plant modernization.
Certainly, there are individual utilities that were looking at improvements, whether that's automation, innovation, different types of systems or components that we could install that would make the plants more efficient.
But there were also vendors providing great products that would automate or make our plants more efficient. Certainly, the two areas I mentioned, the LWRS at DOE and Plant Modernization Committee at EPRI, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 are other examples of that.
But what we were finding was, a lot of people were doing a lot of things and there wasn't really a centralized hub that was pulling all that information together such that we could share that widely across the industry, whether that's the U.S. or the world, to take advantage of things that individual utilities or research organizations or companies were doing, such that everybody didn't have to start from ground zero to understand what they could do at their plants.
So, that was really the birth, and I want to really thank EPRI for taking the lead on this. EPRI is facilitating what we call the Plant Modernization Committee, but it's really a very, very cross-functional role or cross-functional group.
There's participants from licensees, from the research agencies, including EPRI, DOE, the National Labs, INPO, the Institute of National Power Operations, and many of the vendors that are providing equipment and services to the industry. It's really a way to pull all that information together.
The types of things that we're talking about, you've heard about them today and yesterday in some of the RIC sessions we've already heard. I know NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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35 Chairman Hanson talked about digital I&C as one of his focus areas and we've heard that from others.
Certainly, that's a great opportunity to take the analog systems that many of our plants were originally designed with into the more modern, state of the art digital technology.
And just to elaborate on that one for a minute, the great benefit that digital I&C brings to the table is that you can design systems that are self-diagnostic, they can monitor their performance.
They have many, many, many fewer moving parts, so their reliability is much better compared to the analog systems that we have today. The number of components that could fail in the existing analog systems that could result in a unit trip or a scram, they're greatly reduced by taking advantage of digital I&C technology.
So, there are many reasons why that can be one component of plant modernization. But there are many, many others. There's drone technology, which a lot of the utilities are using now to perform inspections remotely.
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36 in our fleet, if we didn't have a wireless network, a wireless backbone at the stations, we're installing that.
And what that provides is the ability to mount hundreds of equipment sensors, remote technology sensors that monitor vibration, temperatures, pressures, things of that nature, and can feed that information to a central data repository.
And, really, through taking advantage of advanced pattern recognition type tools, we can monitor the plant on a 24/7 continuous basis and be able to detect when there's an anomaly in a particular parameter much earlier than plant walk-downs or periodic system engineer reviews.
So, wireless technology, remote sensors, there's a lot of modernization activities that are taking place in the radiological protection and chemistry areas, to be able to do remote sampling and remote monitoring.
But just things like that are really what we have thrown into what we call this plant modernization effort. So, I'll probably steal a little bit of thunder of what Heather might want to talk about, but one of the products that the EPRI Plant NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 Modernization Committee has produced is an online repository of all these different technological improvements that you could choose from.
So, a utility, for example, Dominion Energy that I work for, we could review the information that's available on this electronic database and determine, well, gee, going with the wireless technology or going with this automated work processing system, electronic work processing, or looking at these wireless remote monitoring equipment skids for this particular technology, we can pick that information off of this plant modernization database and evaluate it for our particular location and determine if it makes sense from an economic and reliability and safety perspective to implement those kind of modifications at our plants.
So, it's advanced from that early stage in 2018 to where it is today in 2021, where a lot of this information is available to utilities to take advantage of.
And I really want to emphasize, this modernization activity is obviously, one of the fundamental reasons we're doing it is to be sure that we can operate safely and efficiently and cost effectively into the future.
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38 But it is not efficiency at the sake of safety or the sake of reliability, all three of those really are hand-in-hand. And what we have found is when you can improve the reliability of a system, you can very much impact in a positive way the safety performance of that system as well.
So, it's really not a one or the other, it's a collaboration of all those particular improvements that can be made. So, it forms a fundamental basis for those of us that are pursuing operation beyond 60 years, to 80 years.
We, within Dominion Energy, we have a fairly broad program that is looking at what are the plant upgrades that we need to make to ensure that safety and reliability from year 60 to 80? And it's going to include a number of these modernization activities that I mentioned already.
Certainly, the aging management programs that we've talked about that all this research has really underpinned are going to tell us if, for example, a particular heat exchanger or particular piping system, if the aging mechanisms that are in play there are going to indicate that it's good and it's reliable to year 60, but to be able to operate it for an additional NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 20 years to year 80 may require that it go through some kind of an upgrade or modernization.
So, this effort really goes hand-in-hand with all this research that we've talked about already.
So, I'm happy to ask Heather or Alison to add what EPRI and DOE are working on this particular area.
MS. BRADFORD: Thanks, Mark. I don't know, Heather, would you like to talk about EPRI's activities?
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah, that sounds great.
And, Mark, I tell you what, thank you so much for talking through what you talked through, you didn't steal any of my thunder, but you set things up really, really well.
And through this conversation, it's just a reflection of the collaboration and work that we've done together over the last few years, both with your leadership in LPO and with plant modernization. So, I really appreciate all the effort.
EPRI's plant modernization effort, as Mark noted, started in the 2018 time frame. And we really approached it from the perspective of understanding processes that are in place today. And making sure that those will continue to bring value in the future, as we look at modernizing, as we look at changing things NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 out.
Because what we don't want is to take a process that's not working well and then modernize that process. We wanted to take the holistic approach and understand that this is the best way to tackle that challenge, for example.
And so, we really did take a step back and we asked ourselves, what are technologies that are available today? And so, we have modernization technology assessments that we've put together, it is available in a database on a website, as Mark mentioned.
Then, from there, we looked at those technologies and conducted business case assessments.
What's the return on investment if I apply this technology? Or what's the return on investment if I apply this technology and also changed these two other things?
And what we were finding is, it wasn't so much about a single technology, but it was a single technology plus a couple other changes that would really bring that return on investment, that would really bring that efficiency together.
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41 a process that can be used at a site to go through the thought processes, how do I approach modernization?
And we're excited to say, we have two pilots that are underway this year to take a look at that entire process and work through that process in a very big way for the entire plant.
A couple of examples to talk about here.
Mark mentioned the digital backbone, having wireless in place at a plant. And that technology enables so much. As an example, we're starting to see the transformation from paper work orders to paperless work orders. And so, now, you have staff in a plant with an iPad, walking around conducting the work order, conducting the tasks in that work order.
Now, we have data to understand how they're spending their time and can analyze that data to understand what was the bottleneck at this point in that particular process? Was it the procedure, such that we need to rewrite the procedure? Or was it something to do with the type of work that was being done in the field?
So, that wireless backbone, plus paperless work, is really going to make a big impact on efficiencies.
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42 Another example, there's coatings that basically repel water. And if you take those coatings and apply them in a pump, you've got -- basically, there's no crud building up on that pump impeller.
So, you've got a pump that stays clean longer, which is great.
But then, you can take it to the next level and say, well, because the pump is clean, it's not going to degrade, so I don't have to inspect it as often.
And then, you can start to see cost savings.
So, we've got this plant modernization toolbox that takes you everywhere from the technologies to return on investment to a process that you can go through as you're looking at modernizing the plant.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay, thank you. Alison, how about DOE's thoughts on plant modernization or activities that are underway at DOE?
MS. HAHN: Of course. So, just like EPRI, the LWRS program also has a plant modernization pathway.
And they spent time developing technology evaluation methods, which provide feasibility of implementation, cost benefits, and risk assessments.
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43 fleet. Many of those projects are coordinated directly with industry, through cost-share, private-public partnerships.
For example, we recently got underway with a project that will digitalize a boiling water reactor safety system. We also competitively selected projects that will automate remote monitoring for operational readiness. Condition-based maintenance, monitoring those plant systems and equipment. And then, hydrogen demonstration projects at three nuclear sites.
And then, to complement the technology development in the project, the LWRS program is also developing the Integrated Operations for Nuclear, or ION, which provides a methodology for a top-down analysis of the integration of new technology, to ensure it enables meaning improvements in costs, while maintaining appropriate levels of safety.
And then, on the other side, just like Mark said, we're also investigating the use of AI to improve the overall process of nuclear power plants. I mentioned the predictive maintenance project using monitoring and predictive analysis. And the advanced remote monitoring project is also using computer vision NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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44 applications.
So, we have a number of AI applications throughout the program as well, to complement some of the other ones.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay, thank you. And, Louise, it's easy for me, at least in my mind, to make the connection between why a licensee like Mark would be interested in plant modernization, but can you tell us what the NRC's involvement is with that?
MS. LUND: Sure. And I think, what I take away from what I hear, and hopefully everybody else does too, what an enabling technology that digital is.
And, of course, Mark also talked about wireless as well.
And what we see in the NRC is, as we start to get applications for these, especially digital systems, and we get experience in applying the guidance.
It helps us really understand if we have any questions that need additional work.
And that's where some of the research programs we have currently are trying to fill in at least our understanding of some of these areas, as we get more experience in looking at applications and seeing the type of things that the digital and the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 wireless and the other types of technologies will be used for.
So, there's a lot going on. I hope that's what people end up taking away from this, is there is a lot of pilots, there's a lot of activity. And these are technologies that are used in a number of different other industries, and the question is how to use them, use them safely, and really make sure that our guidance makes it easy for us to evaluate applications to do that.
So, keeping the plants safe, of course, is our number one goal. So, hopefully that answers the question there, Anna.
MS. BRADFORD: It does, thank you, Louise.
We're getting towards the end of our session time.
What I'd like to do is encourage the audience, if you have questions to send in, please go ahead and send those while we're kind of wrapping up this session.
I'll say that during the discussions, we've heard about a variety of technical, economic, and regulatory challenges that we need to look at, with respect to long-term operation. And as we move forward, all of those factors need to be considered and balanced appropriately.
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46 And I think we've heard from all of our panelists that it's important to continue research and gather test data and operating experience to reduce uncertainties and to maintain a comprehensive and proactive approach to aging management. And where plants are proposing changes to modernize their equipment, the safety implications of those changes must also be carefully evaluated.
So, I'd like to ask our panelists if they have, to offer, I guess, a final brief remark. Well, Mark, since you were last with the introductions, maybe you can go first with the final brief remark.
MR. SARTAIN: Yeah, thank you again, Anna.
And just, I think the way we can pull all this together of what we've been talking about for the last hour or so is, if you listened to Chairman Hanson yesterday morning and a lot of the other presentations we've heard throughout yesterday and today, you heard a common theme that many of us are pursuing net zero environmental goals, whether that's at the state level or the individual company level.
And the state that I operate in, in Virginia, has provided those types of goals and has enacted legislation to be net zero by the middle of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 the century. Our company has done the same thing.
So, it's very evidence and very obvious that nuclear currently plays a large role in the clean power produced in this country, and for that matter, in the world, and it's going to continue to do that.
So, all the research that we've heard about today, just on this short call, has supported our ability and, really, facilitated licensees such as ours to extend the licenses of the units, almost everybody to 60 years, and then, as Anna mentioned, ten units are pursuing to 80 years.
Not only does that sustain the current light water reactor fleet for safe and reliable operation, but what it does, it provides a bridge to being able to do additional research into other advanced nuclear technologies.
There was a session yesterday, or maybe it was this morning, on advanced nuclear technology.
And, certainly, by being able to operate our existing fleet to 80 years, it will give us the time to fully vet that research, get those designs to a commercially viable state, to where utilities such as ours, or anybody for that matter, could design, license, and build one of those, to continue the nuclear clean power NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 generation well into the latter part of the century.
So, I'm just proud to be a part of this effort and appreciate everybody's contribution today.
MS. BRADFORD: Thank you, Mark. Heather, any thoughts for the end of this session?
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah, sure. And I'll go back to some of the remarks that I made in the beginning, which are similar to what Mark had said.
As we look to the clean energy future and we look to the 2050 time frame --
MS. BRADFORD: Thank you, Heather. I think your audio dropped out a little bit at the end there, but I think we will also come back to you with some questions, hopefully.
Alison, any thoughts for the wrap-up?
MS. HAHN: Yes. Thank you for your time and I appreciate the opportunity to sit on this panel.
Sustaining the existing fleet is a top priority for the Office of Nuclear Energy, and we look forward to continuing this work to reduce the O&M costs and increase revenue opportunities to sustain these valuable assets.
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49 and for industry, including plant modernization technologies that we're working towards and applications like hydrogen production that weren't previously considered really, but have really taken off in the industry. So, encapsulating all of the technology areas and really working to sustain these.
MS. BRADFORD: Great, thanks, Alison. And, Louise, any final remarks before we move to questions?
MS. LUND: Well, I think you can conclude by listening to a lot of the presentations today that, even though sometimes we come from different priorities and perspectives, the type of research that we've collaborated and coordinated on has provided very valuable insights and input and helped develop guidance and helped to do a lot of the things that we have actually discussed already and will help us also position ourselves to understand how to do things within plant sustainability and the other areas going forward as well.
Research is an expensive area to do work in and these relationships and collaborations are very important in order for all of the organizations to really leverage what they've been given and to do as much as you've actually heard about and more, to make NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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50 sure the plant stays safe.
So, anyway, I thank everybody on the panel, because they've been very, very good to work with and I look forward to future coordination and collaboration with them in the future in our research areas.
MS. BRADFORD: Great, thanks, Louise. And I will echo your thanks to all of the panelists.
So, why don't we go ahead and move to questions? We do have some questions coming in, we have a little bit less than 15 minutes to address them.
The first one I see here, Alison, is directed to you. And it says, for the fiber optic continuous monitoring of piping, what type of degradation mechanisms can be detected? Also, is this something that can be implemented in current plants that have miles and miles of piping?
MS. HAHN: Absolutely. So, I don't have the specific list of the degradation mechanisms, but I do know that it can be applied to the existing fleet.
And when it is first installed, the insulation only needs to be removed once to put the sensors and then, insulation doesn't need to be removed again. And those sensors are very tolerant of radiation and other extreme environments.
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51 So, it is capable of monitoring a lot of different varieties and those miles and miles of buried piping as well.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay, thank you. Anybody else want to weigh in on that? Mark, I know you have to deal with those miles and miles of piping every day, so any thoughts on what challenges that poses?
MR. SARTAIN: I would just echo the technology work or the research that's being done in remote monitoring and different acoustic methods of being able to monitor the condition of, particularly buried and encased piping will only reap benefits for us in terms of being able to accurately characterize the condition of those lines in order to institute any remediation or repair activities. So, very, very crucial to us to be able to take advantage of that.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Thank you. Let's move to our next question. Louise, this is directed to you, but others might have thoughts as well.
What lessons learned from long-term operation related research could help handle better aging management for advanced reactors? So, trying to apply this to the new types of reactors that are being designed and might come online. Can you talk NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 a little bit about that connection?
MS. LUND: Yes. I think that there's been a lot of very useful information that's come out of this research, especially in the metals and the concrete and the cable areas, as well as other areas that we haven't talked about.
And, in particular, the fact is that with the new advanced reactors, they're still using a lot of the more commonly used materials, because some of the newer materials haven't been approved through code yet.
So, obviously, condition monitoring techniques for cable will be useful. And I think that we've learned so much and the question is how to really leverage and make use of what we've learned. We've learned a lot about concrete as well and how to best do the right type of inspections and to be able to do the right type of condition monitoring.
And you might be able to leverage some of these new techniques that they're talking about in plant sustainability, because a lot of the plant sustainability work leverage what we've learned before as well. So, I see it as a continuum. But I'd really welcome what some of the other panelists have to say NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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53 as well.
MS. BRADFORD: Yeah, thank you, Louise.
Alison, I know DOE is very involved in the advanced reactor area, and that might be maybe a different part of DOE than you're involved in, but what's the kind of connection in your mind between advanced reactors and long-term operation research activities?
MS. HAHN: Of course. So, we're going to pull in a lot of the lessons learned from the existing fleet. Materials R&D has application to that. We're looking at building the Versatile Test Reactor out at the Idaho National Lab as well to help with our material research for those advanced reactors as well.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Heather, is EPRI involved with advanced reactors and how this might apply to them?
MS. FELDMAN: Yes, we absolutely are involved in advanced reactors. And the plant modernization area connects really well with advanced reactors.
As we think about the advanced reactors, they're going to be operated differently. There's a data-driven approach, where I anticipate seeing more sensors in place in advanced reactors. If you have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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54 more sensors, there's more data. There's artificial intelligence that's going to be needed.
Everything that we're learning and applying today for the existing fleet can be applied to what we're going to do in the future with advanced reactors.
I also anticipate that advanced reactors might even, from this perspective, might even leapfrog what we're doing today. But we can absolutely use what we're learning in plant modernization with advanced reactors.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay, thank you. Mark, did you have anything you would like to add about LTO research and advanced reactors?
MR. SARTAIN: I would just like to underscore everything that each of Alison, Louise, and Heather said about that.
And just one example of what Louise mentioned a little while ago, on baffle bolt failures and all the things we're learning about that, well, the results of that research and analysis will certainly inform how the new reactors are designed, to avoid those particular problems.
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55 it's going to directly impact and improve the new reactor designs.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay, thank you. So, our next question, it's not directed at a person in particular, so, Heather, I'll pick on you here. So, the question says, are you looking at the success of international plants and the success they're having with safely implementing digital modernization?
MS. FELDMAN: That is --
MS. BRADFORD: I know EPRI has international activities.
MS. FELDMAN: Yeah, we do. And that's a really great question. And the short answer is, we absolutely are. We're learning from plants around the world that have deployed digital I&C and safety-related systems.
We're taking that back into our documents, our guidance documents, and sharing that with our membership, really, around the world. So, absolutely taking those lessons learned in.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Alison or Louise, did you want to add anything about that?
MS. LUND: Yes, I would. In fact, the staff has reached out to regulators and other international NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 forums to discuss the experiences that some of the other countries have had in implementing digital. But also, how the regulators have looked at how to review those type of applications as well. So, the answer is absolutely, yes.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay. Okay. Why don't we move on to maybe, I think we have time for maybe one or two more questions. Mark, I would direct this one at you.
It asks, how should the potential economic and efficiency benefits be balanced against the potential increase in cybersecurity risks arising from the introduction of wireless and digital technologies?
You touched on those when you talked about plant modernization. How can we balance those in a safe and effective manner?
MR. SARTAIN: Yeah, that's a fabulous question, and it's one that we have asked ourselves in looking at the ability to modernize, all this wireless technology that we're taking advantage of for sensors or the digital I&C designs that we're talking about to replace the protection and control systems at the plant.
Cyber is certainly a big piece of that.
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57 And there are ways, and we're learning more about that as we continue to march through time, there are ways to have the proper barriers and thresholds for crossing different cyber-related boundaries and still preserve the benefits that these digital I&C mods can bring to the plants.
But it's a great question and it's a great point, that we do have to deal with that and potentially do some tradeoffs in terms of the benefit that the modification offers versus the potential interruption it might or vulnerability that it might cause from an external cyber perspective.
So, we all believe, I think the industry understands that this is all very solvable, and in many cases, we have solved it already, but it's a critical design input.
MS. BRADFORD: Thanks, Mark. Alison, is DOE looking at cybersecurity for digital modernization?
MS. HAHN: Yes, we are. So, we have found that including the cybersecurity folks from the beginning of the digital modernization technology development and including the cyber folks at the beginning can really help address and solve a lot of those concerns and issues moving forward, rather than NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 trying to develop that technology and then go back to the cyber.
So, having that coordination from the beginning has really been a good lesson learned for us as we move forward with this.
MS. BRADFORD: Okay, great, thank you. And I think that's really all the time we have for today for questions.
And I'd like to thank the panelists, I think we had a very broad range of people who are very knowledgeable about plant modernization and long-term operation. It's wonderful to see, honestly, the organizations all coordinating and working together to try to get to the end goal.
So, thank you both for being at this RIC session, but also for the work that you're doing on these areas in general.
And thank you also to our audience members for the questions, we appreciate it. I encourage you to check out the sessions that will be coming up for the RIC next, because I know we have some interesting ones this afternoon.
And with that, I will say good-bye and thank you.
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59 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 2:44 p.m.)
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