ML21225A688
| ML21225A688 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/10/2021 |
| From: | NRC/EDO, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
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| References | |
| NRC-1420 | |
| Download: ML21225A688 (28) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
33rd Regulatory Information Conference Daily Staff Talks Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: teleconference Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 Work Order No.: NRC-1420 Pages 1-25 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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33RD REGULATORY INFORMATION CONFERENCE (RIC)
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DAILY STAFF TALKS REFLECTING ON NRC'S DEDICATION TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY, SECURITY AND THE ENVIRONMENT
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WEDNESDAY, MARCH 10, 2021
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The RIC session convened via Video Teleconference, at 2:45 p.m. EST, Alysia Bone, OEDO, presiding.
PRESENT:
ALYSIA BONE, Communications Lead, Futures Core Team, OEDO/NRC VONNA ORDAZ, Office Director, SBCR/NRC KIRK FOGGIE, Chief, Reactor Program Services Branch II, Division of Resource Management and Administration, NRR/NRC JASMINE GILLIAM, Physical Security Inspector, Plant NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 Support Branch, Division of Reactor Safety, RIII/NRC P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2:47 p.m.
MS. BONE: Hello and welcome to our final staff talk of the first ever virtual Regulatory Information Conference. I'm Alysia Bone and I'm just delighted to be your host for these talks which are just an opportunity to sit down virtually with some of our NRC employees and talk a little more informally about a subject of the day.
One quick housekeeping item. You might still see that Q&A portal on the right-hand side of your screen. Again, that is not going to be monitored during this talk today.
Today's topic is on our workforce's commitment to the mission. And so we have three guest speakers who were part of the NRC response during critical times in our history.
So I'd like to introduce Vonna Ordaz who is our Office Director for the Office of Small Business and Civil Rights; Kirk Foggie who is a Branch Chief in the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation; and Jasmine Gilliam who is a Physical Security NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 Inspector in Region 3. Jasmine, Kirk, Vonna, thank you three so much for being here today.
MS. ORDAZ: Thank you.
MS. GILLIAM: Thank you.
MR. FOGGIE: Thanks for having us.
MS. BONE: So just jumping right into the topic for today, our workforce's commitment to the mission. This is something that has come up so many times, particularly during this RIC, the chairman, all of the commissioners so beautifully put in their plenaries how dedicated our staff, our management, our employee workforce is to the mission, and it's mutual. Right?
The Agency is always trying to help foster our employees, encourage our employees, build resources for our employees. One of our transformation focus areas is focusing on our people, and I think this mutual commitment is really pronounced more than ever during the most challenging of times.
Vonna, I want to start with you. You were part of the Agency's response immediately following the attacks of September 11, 2001. Can you tell us what was your role at that time, and can you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 give us a little bit of a summary of your experience during that time?
MS. ORDAZ: Thank you, Alysia. First, I'd like to say that my heart goes out to the families that lost loved ones from those horrific events. It was a remarkable time for all of us. And I know everybody listening here today has some impact based on that day.
So at the time I was a reactor security branch chief in our Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation and I was on site that day in the office, and all of the leaders above me were off-site at a retreat, a management retreat.
So right when the first tower was struck by a plane, I was being briefed at that very moment on the 10 CFR 7355 security role by my staff, and there was a hurriedness to go out to the hallway to find out what was going on. The moment I saw number two, it was evident we needed to man the operations center.
So myself, my team, and my colleagues in NMSS, the Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards office at the time, the operations center, colleagues in NRR all went over to the operations center to start NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 it up. And then shortly thereafter, all the leaders joined us from the Agency.
So I was very, very impressed. You know our primary focus was safety and security in fulfilling the NRC's mission, protection of the staff as well as the public.
I do know people that had children in other, you know, children in daycares. We had family members such as myself go to rescue them out of the government daycare facilities and send everybody home.
But in terms of our response, we had three teams. We had an operations team that was in the operations center 24/7 for four months. We had a response to terrorist acts task force led by senior leaders in the agency, and I supported that task force. And then we had our in-office team that was reviewing typical amendments and continuing to move work forward.
So during the events that followed 9/11, security orders, communications, questions and answers with congressional staff, a ton of work was done. Many, many, many hours. Most of us don't remember really going home during that period of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 time.
But it was quite a moment that I'll never forget in my career here at the Agency, and will always, always appreciate the way the staff came together with their dedication and support to ensure our mission was filled.
MS. BONE: Incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that, Vonna. I think actually we have a few photos, is that correct? If we can show slide 2 here, Vonna was so kind to share some photos of that time. Vonna, can you tell us what are we looking at here?
MS. ORDAZ: Yes, those are photos from the Operations Center. And they couldn't show you inside the safeguards team room. That was a secure room that you had to have a special password to get in, but it showed people poring over tables. We had a reactor safety team, a reactor security team, the executive team, all the various facets that currently exist today in the operations center. This is just folks coming together.
Not only did people come together, those that weren't on shift were waiting to take the next shift. This was a time when nobody complained about NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 anything. They just -- we had to turn people down because they just were so dedicated, so impressed with, you know, supporting this Agency and the mission that food was coming left and right. I mean it was a really huge, huge family, NRC family that came together to respond to this event.
MS. BONE: Vonna, that literally gives me chills. I mean how incredible. I feel really just privileged to be part of the NRC community, the NRC family as you put it.
I do want to come back to you. I have more questions for you about that time, but I'd like to go over to you now, Kirk. Ten years after Vonna's experience, you know nearly 10 years ago now, you were part of the immediate actions and communications following the accident at Fukushima Daiichi. Can you talk to me a little bit about your role at that time and give a little bit of your experience?
MR. FOGGIE: Sure. So at the time I was an International Relations Officer in the Office of International Programs and the RIC had just ended.
So I'm heading into the office the next day, setting up some bilateral meetings because there are some international counterparts who had stayed after to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 have a conversation after the RIC on the margins.
I get into the office and the first thing I'm hit with as soon as I walked into my office is, have you heard anything? Have you seen the news?
And I was aware. I did know about the earthquake and tsunami, I just wasn't aware of what the effects were to Fukushima Daiichi.
So I immediately got on the phone, made some phone calls to my counterparts that were still here, and also to the Japanese embassy downtown, to the scientific office to see if I could get some information. The information I was able to get was really the information that we were receiving over the television and what they were receiving at home as well.
It was real time, it wasn't a whole lot, but I took what I had and took it over to the OPS center, which had some senior leaders in there that were monitoring the situation because we were not in monitoring mode because it was not a U.S. plant, but we were watching the situation.
I provided the information that I'd heard and continued to reach out to my counterparts in the liaison team room just to get an appreciation for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 what was going on real time, hopefully to provide any additional information. Time flew by. I looked up, it's 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> later.
I had one of the senior managers come to me and say, Kirk, we appreciate what you've done so far. You've been here for over 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />. We've got more people here in the OPS center now. Go ahead and go home, take a moment, get some rest, come on back.
So, I headed home. And as soon as I got home, I got a phone call. And on the other end of the phone it was Margie Doane who was at the time the Office Director for International Programs. She said, Kirk, we got a call from the U.S. Ambassador in Japan. He's putting together an envoy through USAID.
They're heading over to Japan to help out the embassy to obtain information and they've asked for the NRC to support as well.
And they wanted me to be part of the team because I had my counterparts; I had relationships with people in Japan. So they said they'd like for me to be a part of it.
I'm saying to myself in my head, I don't know how I can help. I can do that from here, but without hesitation I told her yes, I'll go. So NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 headed back into the office, started to round up equipment. We're getting satellite phones, we're getting laptops, we're getting dosimeters, we're getting USB drives, we're getting printers. We just gathered any type of equipment we can take over there with us that would make it helpful and useful for gathering this information for the embassy and also for the NRC as well.
And from there, I met up with the other nine -- because two had already moved -- went over to Japan. But I caught up with other nine individuals that made up the first 11 that went over to the embassy to support the U.S. from the embassy and the NRC to continue to be committed to the mission abroad, but for the U.S. citizens that were there in Japan.
MS. BONE: Wow. Kirk, I had to take several deep breaths because that is such a story.
Thank you so much for sharing that. So I'm kind of calculating in my head, this is plus more than 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> you've not slept, right, during this time?
MR. FOGGIE: That's right.
MS. BONE: What are some things, you know, if you don't mind my asking, you know, personally, what are some of the things you were NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 juggling at that time? Because I know that, you know, not only just needing sleep, but what are some of the other things to consider as you're getting on a plane to Japan so dedicated to this mission?
MR. FOGGIE: Sure. So one of the things, I was glad I was able to actually make it home, because at the time I had a three year-old and a one year-old at home. So I was able to tell the family, hey, look, I've been asked to go on this mission. I don't know how long I'll be gone. I want to make sure that everything is in order.
I was able to take a few minutes and do that before I went back to the Agency. As well just trying to figure out phone numbers, emails, because once I get over there, you know, I'm not going to have what I had in my office. Make sure that I had access to that.
And just that all types of things are going through your head. Do you have your international credit card? Are you sure you're going to be capable to reach the people that you need to once you get there? It's just a whole plethora of things that are going through your head.
But the main thing was let's make sure NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 that we get in touch with the other individuals that are going. And since I do know a little bit about the country, make sure that they are comfortable in knowing that they can come to me and ask me questions as well and try to put them at ease as we get on this plane to head over there.
MS. BONE: Amazing, Kirk, amazing. And kind of drawing from what Vonna was saying before, the idea of the camaraderie, not only within NRC but our incredible international colleagues, our colleagues in Japan, and just sort of that mutual commitment and relationship-building to help meet the mission and really get us all where we want to go.
So thank you so much for sharing that.
I do want to come back to you. I want to hear more about these relationships that you built. I know they've been so important to you and to the Agency moving forward. But let's move over to Jasmine.
Again, fast-forwarding now another 10 years, Jasmine, we are finding ourselves in yet another really challenging time. You have been an inspector, right, this past year. Tell me, what's your role been during the past year, and can you give NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 us a little bit of a sort of summary of your experience during this time where we're meeting our mission during COVID-19?
MS. GILLIAM: Sure. So actually I was in a little bit of a unique situation where the week prior to our offices shutting down when we got to that real big onset of the pandemic, I was actually switching roles.
So for the better part of my thirteenth year, the week before our office shut down, I was an engineering inspector here at Region 3 doing a lot of electrical engineering cybersecurity inspection.
The week we shut down, I transitioned to my current role which is the physical security inspector here in the region. So similar to a lot of the other inspectors, once we kind of started getting a grasp of this isn't going to be a short-term thing, we need to understand how we're still going to do our inspections and meet those baseline inspections and the requirements of things that we do year to year, day to day as inspectors.
So myself, along with all the other inspectors here in the region, started taking, kind of picking apart those procedures to help take the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 burden off of -- to understand what items we could do remote and what items we could do, we had to be on site for.
Because I was in that transition, I was able to actually do a couple more of the actual engineering inspections. Some of those inspections, we had determined it would be completely remote. So we were able to get those inspections done, still meet with the staff, still review documents, and all the things we needed to fulfill those inspection requirements.
On the physical security side, there's obviously some things you can do remote and some things you couldn't. So once COVID kind of died down in some of our areas, we inspectors, including myself, started going out a couple days a week during those inspection times to fulfill some of those requirements that we needed eyes on to be able to complete those inspections.
On the flip side, our Agency at the time was also going through a change in our incidence response program. And so the way those roles were being done, we actually got to utilize one of the highlights of the pros in being able to do the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 incidence response program the way that it was being done currently, is you could be anywhere and still respond to an incident if you needed to.
So we were actually able to go through and do that during COVID. I think the Region 3 did the first regional exercise at one of our plants here in the region, and we did it completely remote. We were all in different places, and we were able to get that exercise done.
And there was a personal role adjustment for me also. I titled myself as assistant teacher because I do have a special needs third grader at home with me. And so just -- his school shut down four days, school and childcare shut down four days before our offices shut down. So there's the logistics in trying to make sure he gets what he needs but still, you know, completing things for work. It was a little bit of a challenge for a while, but we worked through it.
MS. BONE: Wow. Jasmine, I'm in awe of all that you have accomplished. You know, even literally just being a teacher to your son alone. I have a three year-old at home so I know that it can be particularly challenging juggling everything. So NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 thank you for sharing that, and I just sense the dedication and pride in your work as you describe how you've been able to meet your inspection duties and really helping to fulfill the mission during this time.
I think we actually have a picture of Jasmine on slide 4. Can we bring that up? Jasmine, tell us about these two pictures side-by-side. Where are you?
MS. GILLIAM: Well, the one where I'm in the plant, I'm actually on site helping out the resident inspectors during their outage. They needed some extra support. So that was actually when I was in training all those years ago back in that 2008 timeframe.
And then the picture where I'm at home, that's one of the, you know, doing the on-site inspection -- sorry, the remote part of the inspection. So for that week I was working at home doing the remote portions of the procedure on Monday and Tuesday, and then I went out the site that Wednesday and Thursday of that same week to complete the rest of the inspection.
MS. BONE: Incredible, Jasmine. So do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 you have any tips as you've been able to balance all of these roles and responsibilities, incredibly important, and serious roles and responsibilities both at work and at home, any tips, how have you been able to sort of manage it all?
MS. GILLIAM: I love lists, so I give myself little timelines. So for the inspection portions of it, it's the communication. Right? So if you know you're going to be on-site for two days and you've been talking to the site for weeks, and the week you're doing the inspection you know what everybody wants to accomplish while you're there.
But being able to articulate that up front, like these are things we need to see, how long I plan on being there, let's try to get a schedule together in order to make sure we get what we need out of these couple days on site.
And on a personal level, it's the same thing; communication. My nephew and I had hand signals. When I was in a meeting, I'd do this, he's goes back the other one. The communication, even like nonverbal, people in your household can get things done. So communication in tracking and schedules.
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18 MS. BONE: Yes, absolutely. Fantastic tips. Vonna, going back to you, you obviously have such an incredible career. Office Director now for the Office of Small Business and Civil Rights, talk to me about how you think that 20 years ago your experience during the 9/11 response at NRC, how has that impacted you personally and professionally? How has that gotten you to where you are today?
MS. ORDAZ: Well, I'd say personally it was a big impact. I didn't lose any family members at that time, but just watching and observing my colleagues; my boss, Glenn Tracy, who is one of the best, who had a brother up in the twin towers, and seeing people still responding and doing their work while they didn't know where there family members were. That just was so powerful to me that it just, it was amazing.
I had two small children at the time. I now have three, but I basically had family support to be able to help me through that. If I didn't have my mother, my family, my sister, and all of those supporting me, I couldn't have gotten through it personally.
Professionally, I would say this is my NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 30th year here at the NRC. I was so proud to step up as a leader at the time for this event. And at the end of the four-month response time when things started to somewhat calm down, orders were in place, you know, we were again focused on our mission from day one on safety and security, but we helped create the Office of Nuclear Security and Incident Response.
That came after this. That wasn't created before 9/11. It was post-9/11. And having the Agency give me that leadership opportunity to participate in that and be part of that and help lead the way and pave the road for success in that area, it was very rewarding.
The Agency has been great to me in my career and has allowed me to move in many different positions. But that foundation in NSIR really was the stepping-off point for me. I earned my senior executive role in that capacity in many different positions we had in NSIR, and I'll never forget that.
I'm grateful for the role and the position I have here at the NRC.
MS. BONE: Thank you for your service, Vonna. I mean you've done so much for this Agency that continues to really be, you know, pivotal to the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 regulatory framework that we have. So thank you for all of your service.
Kirk, a little bit -- the same question for you. How has your experience post the accident at Fukushima really, how did that help you or affect you in your personal life and professionally?
MR. FOGGIE: So, I'll start with personally. Personally, it allowed me to grow relationships that I had already started having the chance to go over there and be with my counterparts and work with them. You learn things about them that you didn't know. You learn how strong people are and what they're going through and the character that they have. So building those relationships that actually still continue on today even though I'm not actually involved in any international activities anymore in my career.
Moving over to my professional part, it allowed me an opportunity to grow in other offices.
At the time I was in international programs, but I started to deal with other offices, whether it be NSIR, whether it be NRR just gathering information.
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21 it from me as well. So it allowed me to learn about other offices and also take on new roles and take on new positions in those offices as well.
MS. BONE: Absolutely, and, you know, again, time and time again, the relationships that we build, our international relationships are so critical here at the Agency. And I think we actually have a picture that maybe demonstrates this. Can we pull up slide 3?
So, Kirk, tell me about this picture?
What is this a picture of?
MR. FOGGIE: So this picture is maybe three or four years later, and this is a picture of the Senior Leadership Team at the time we took them to Japan to go to multiple areas. We definitely took a trip to Fukushima. This is not Fukushima. I believe this is one of the heavy industry facilities that provides components to U.S. facilities.
But it was an opportunity for the senior leadership to get out there and meet with some of their counterparts too, maybe they see once a year at the RIC. But they actually got to go to their agencies or to their facilities, and maybe get a better appreciation for what they do over in their NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 country.
MS. BONE: Wow. And that communication is so important, so critical. And in fact, Kirk, so not to put you on the spot, but rumor has it that you actually learned Japanese through your experience working with our Japanese colleagues, is that true?
MR. FOGGIE: (Foreign language spoken).
So, yes, I learned Japanese. It was after the fact, but because I continued to work in International for some years, it helped me. It helped me to grow my relationships. It helped me to do my job a lot better. So yes, I'm thankful to the Agency for helping me to learn that new language.
MS. BONE: Oh, I love that. That was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Kirk.
Jasmine, going back to you, tell me what struck you the most about this past year and the Agency's response? What are some things that have really stuck out to you?
MS. GILLIAM: So one of the things I was actually very appreciative of is very early on in the pandemic, the Agency went to what they call a 24/6.
So when you're home and you have to deal with children, school-age children, sometimes those core NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 business hours they just don't work because there's other things going on in your household.
So being able to take a two-hour break to go make sure that your students or your child gets the lesson they're supposed to be getting, and then coming back and being able to do things later has been very helpful.
Also understanding that, you know, all the time we spent on site, where we still need that on-site presence, there are certain things that necessarily require us to go on site. So I think the Agency as they continue to embrace those two things, it gives people more flexibility to do their jobs in a different way. And different is not always bad.
It's just understanding that different is sometimes better and people appreciate that.
MS. BONE: Absolutely. So speaking of that, I know maybe it's a little early to tell, we're still evolving, we're still growing, we're still responding amidst COVID-19, but looking a little bit in the future, can you maybe predict some of the ways this past year has affected you? Have you thought about, you know, has this impacted what you want to do in the future at all?
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24 MS. GILLIAM: I think that being, so also a little bit more personal, I am a single parent to my nephew, I think that the Agency embracing this change allows people to do the jobs that they think they didn't think they could do more. The traveling inspector, the international program, the jobs that require a lot of travel. As we continue to embrace how do we do things differently so that more people can do their jobs that they kind of disqualified themselves for because of personal reasons, I think that it kind of opens up the limits a little bit on what I can do in the future.
MS. BONE: Absolutely, for sure. Sky's the limit for you, Jasmine.
So Vonna, going back to you, you know, it feels really similar some of Jasmine's stories. As you mentioned when you were responding at the time of 9/11, you had young children. How were you able to juggle it all, and is there anything, you know, does any part of Jasmine's story sort of scream out to you of like, I can relate to that?
MS. ORDAZ: All of it. Family support is everything. My husband at the time, my mother was huge, my sister, my neighbors at times. You just NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 have to call on all of your resources when you're working through these things. It wasn't just the four months post-9/11, but for years after.
When we were creating the office, and working through orders, and rulemakings and all types of things. It was just a continuation for years after 9/11, just because there was so much work on the plate. It was like flying the plane while building it. It was quite a moment in the history of this Agency for so many, not just me.
But I did lose all kinds of balance, work-life balance. I've regained that in future years. But we find a way. We find a way as mothers or fathers, and parents in general of the children or other things that people have going on in their life.
So you just tend to find a way.
MS. BONE: Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, this has been such a pleasure speaking with the three of you. Thank you for sharing your stories.
Thank you for sharing the personal aspects of your life.
I do want to put in a plug for a couple of sessions tomorrow of note, that are really along the same lines here. So we've got two very special NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 plenary sessions, one in the morning that will be on commemorating the anniversary of the Fukushima Daiichi accident. And then in the afternoon, we have another plenary session called, "See the Change, Be the Change. Energizing the NRC's Workforce" so please do tune in to those.
I'd like to thank all three of you again for being here today. I'd like to thank our guests from the previous staff talks that we had Monday and Tuesday. And a big, big shout out and thank you to Caroline Tilton who is our producer and master organizer behind the scenes for all of this, as well as the entire RIC team for really making this conference possible. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
And thank you all out there for watching and being part of this. It has been an honor and privilege to be here with you. So thank you again and have a wonderful rest of the conference and evening.
MS. ORDAZ: Thank you.
MR. FOGGIE: Thank you, Alysia.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 3:16 p.m.)
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433