ML20129C742
| ML20129C742 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/19/1995 |
| From: | Boal D, Van Cleave V NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20129C121 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-96-246 NUDOCS 9610240110 | |
| Download: ML20129C742 (140) | |
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EXHIBIT 53 i
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I 1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 ---------------------------------x 7 IN THE MATTER OF: -
8 INNOVATIVE WEAPONRY, INC.
9 INTERVIEW OF -
Docket No. N/A 10 DAVID M. GREGOR :
l 11 j 12 -----
x 13 Thursday, October 19, 1995 l
14 l
15 Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
l 16 337 Eubank, Northeast i 17 Albuquerque, New Mexico 1
18 19 20 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 21 2:30 a.m.
22 BEFORE:
23 VIRGINIA J. VAN CLEAVE, Investigator 24 DENNIS BOAL, Investigator l
NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
(202) 234-4433 EXHIBIT 63 Csi s. : ^~ i E ~~- PAGE / OF /NOPAGE(S)
- " /
2 1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Witness and the Licensee, 3 Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
4 HERBERT M. JACOBI, ESQ.
5 8 West 38th Street, 9th Floor 6 New York, New York 10018 l
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NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
(202) 234-4433 l
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- l l 1 PEQCEED1NgS -
j 2 MS. VAN CLEAVE: On the record. For the record, 3
this is an interview of David M. Gregor; address iq lll ,
{
4 date 5 of birth, .who is employed by i 6 Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
I j 7 The date is October the 19th, 1995 and the time
) B is approximately 2:30 p.m. Present at this interview are t
l 9 myself, Virginia Van Cleave, NRC Senior Investigator; i
- 10 Dennis Boal, NRC Investigator; Herbert M. Jacobi, attorney l
l 11 representing Mr. Gregor; and Mr. Gregor.
i 12 This interview is being tape recorded by court I
i 13 reporter Carrie Gansle. Mr. Gregor, if you would please 1
l 14 stand and raise your right hand?
i i 15 WHEREUPON, 16 DAVID M. GREGOR I- 17 having been called as a witness in the above-entitled l
2 18 proceedings, was sworn and testified as follows:
j e j I 19 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
i 20 Mr. Gregor, what is your current position with Q
21 Innovative Weaponry, Inc., IWI?
22 A President.
23 Q You're the president?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 0 Are you president of IWI of New Mexico or IWI of i NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 1
4 1 Nevada? l 1
2 MR. JACOBI: There is no IWI of Nevada anymore.
3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's r'ght.
4 MR. JACOBI: It's 21st Century something or 5 other.
6 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
I 7 Q Are you president of IWI of New Mexico?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q And what about the company, the other company, 10 21st Century --
11 MR. JACOBI: That used to be --
12 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
13 0 -- that used to be IWI of Nevada?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you have any corporate -- do you hold any 16 corporate office with that company? i l
17 A No.
16 Q No? All right. How long have you been with IWI?
19 A I guess 15, 16 months. Late last summer. I 20 Q The summer of 1994?
21 A Right.
22 Q When did you become president?
23 A The first part of November, that time frame.
24 MR. JACOBI: '94?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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5 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 O What was your prior position with IWI?
3 A I was a gunsmith, machinist, worked in that 4 capacity.
5 Q Who was your previous employer before you came to 6 work for IWI?
7 A Wackenhut.
8 Q Oh, Wackenhut? What did you do for them?
9 A Gunsmith.
10 Q How long did you work for them? ,
l 11 A Nine years.
12 MR. JACOBI: You're saying as though they all !
13 know. Is that a good place? ,
1 l
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Oh, no. We just deal with a lot is of Wackenhut employees. l 16 MR. JACOBI: What does Wackenhut do, just for my 17 information?
18 THE WITNESS: They're a subcontractor to several 19 different facilities that provide security for whatever.
20 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Wackenhut provides security for 22 a lot of nuclear sites, too.
23 MR. JACOBI: And obviously they need gunsmiths.
24 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
25 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE: l I
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6 1 Q Did you tell me last time that you were a 2 contractor to the Department of Energy?
3 A Um-hum.
4 o was that in your capacity as an employee of 5 Wackenhut?
6 A They were under contract to Department of Energy.
7 Q Can you briefly tell me what your -- give me a 8 description of your job duties here as president of IWI?
9 A Being a gunsmith, I handle all the gun work that 10 comes in here, all of the gun work. We blue and parkerize 11 and refinish and we have guns come in as a gunsmithing 12 shop. I do that. 1 13 I also am very much involved in writing the 1
14 amending amendments to our license, so I do most of the ;
15 writing for that.
1 I
16 Q When you say your license, which license are you I 17 referring to?
18 A Well, it seems we've been trying to do this for 19 the year and I continually write things.
20 MR. JACOBI: Which license are you referring to?
21 THE WITNESS: The one that we're trying to get 22 the r.mendment for.
l 23 MR. JACOBI: Which license is that? l l
24 THE WITNESS: The NRC license. I'm sorry.
25 MR. JACOBI: Okay. There seems to be a New NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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7 1 Mexico license. That's why I asked.
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, I'm sorry.
3 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 Q I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to 5 clarify that for the record. Okay, go ahead.
6 A And that's what I do.
7 Q What about your involvement with purchasing and 8 shipping and sales? Do you have any involvement in those 9 areas?
10 A No , I don't.
11 Q You don't? Did you read the NRC license?
12 A Yes, I have.
13 O When did, approximately, did you first read that 14 license?
l 15 A I don't know.
16 0 Was it shortly after you came here? Was it six 17 months age last week?
18 A I know I had read it last week because I 19 continually write on it, and as recently as yesterday, it's i i
20 still ambiguous to me.
21 MR. JACOBI: When was the first time it was !
22 ambiguous to you?
23 THE WITNESS: The first time it was ambiguous was 24 probably six months ago or so.
25 MR. JACOBI: Does that indicate that was the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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8 1 first time you may have read it?
2 THE WITNLdS: I don't know that. l 3 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
1 4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
3 5 0 If it was six months ago, you had already been 6 employed as the president for several months at that point.
7 Had you not reviewed the license prior to six 8 months ago?
9 A I don't know the first time that I read it.
1 10 Q When you became the president of IWI, did you 11 take any steps to familiarize yourself with the NRC? I
- 1 I
12 A Yes, I'm sure we tried to get on the right track l l
13 l and do things the way that the NRC wanted, and therefore, 4 14 started communication on that. But knowing what was 15 required and what's wanted, I can't say that I knew totally 16 that this is what the NRC requires.
. 17 Q Did you read the license so that you could try to 18 do those things that you just stated to amend the license, 19 to determine what the NRC wanted?
20 A At some point, I'm sure I read it. What that 21 point is, I don't know. l
)
22 O What was your understanding of what the license 23 allowed IWI to sell as far as night sights go?
24 A Tritium night sights.
25 Q What about specific gun sights?
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9 1 A That's where the ambiguity comes in because there 2 were so many model numbers and I didn't understand what --
3 having not dealt in that before, the learning curve has 4 been tremendous.
5 0 Well, in your opinion, who at IWI was responsible 6 for dealing with the NRC?
7 A Well, I would imagine, as president, that came 8 under my envelope. I could only assume that the way 9 business was done with the NRC in the prior management, 10 that's the way that the license and the procedures would 11 continue to run.
12 O Were you aware that Mr. Mowry had problems with 13 the NRC?
14 A I was aware of problems, but didn't know what 15 they were.
16 0 If you were aware of problems, why would you 17 believe that things would continue as they had?
18 A Nobody had told me what the problems were. ;
{
19 Q As president, did yoa take any steps to try to 20 find out what those problems were?
21 A Well, we understood that there was an amendment 22 problem, in which case we started communications to the NRC 23 trying to get this license amended properly.
l l 24 Q What was your understanding from the NRC license 25 as far as the type of tritium IWI could distribute?
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10 1 A To me, tritium was tritium.
2 O The NRC license says tricium from SRB 4
- 4. 3 Technologies.
4 Did you read the license and were you aware of 5 that? 4 2
6 A Now I am.
7 0 What do you mean by "now"?
8 A Well, after your meeting in June, I'm well aware
- 9 that this is specific to SRB Technologies. Prior to that, 4
10 again, I thought tritium was tritium.
11 0 This license is relatively clear to me on that i
12 aspect. Tt says here, " sealed light sources, SRB 13 Technologies, Inc.," and it cites a specific model number.
14 Now, are you saying you did not read this or you
! 15 did not understand that?
16 MR. JACOBI: As of what date?
! 17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: As of -- wait a minute. What's i
18 your question?
19 MR. JACODI: Well, my question is, since, as I
- 20 gather it, there was no purchase from other than SRB prior 21 to June the 6th, which is their invoice date, of 1995,
., 22 which is their invoice date, then what his understanding
- 23 w a s-, if it's improper or not improper, prior to any l
24 purchase other than what's listed on this license may be 25 absolutely moot.
1 I
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11 1 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, I don't believe it's moot 2 because I believe that IWI entered into negotiations with 3 another company that was not listed on the license, and 4 that was prior to June of 1995.
5 MR. JACOBI: It may have, but they didn't enter 6 into negotiations to distribute anything from that company, 7 did they? You've explained to me this is a distribution 8 license.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's correct.
< v 10 MR. JACOBI: In which case, they can enter into 11 negotiations with every human being in the world to 12 purchase as long as they don't distribute. That's my 13 understanding of what you just went through.
14 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Well, the New Mexico license, of 15 course, you understand, did not authorize --
16 MR. JACOBI: That's correct. l 17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: -- possession of the other ,
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18 tritium either.
19 MR. JACOBI: But that's New Mexico interest.
20 They don't seek to penalize --
21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's true.
22 MR. WILSON: Herb, you have an important phone 23 call that you've got to take.
24 MR. JACOBI: Is it Marie?
25 MR. WILSON: Yes.
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12 1 MR. JACOBI: Let me just take this. It's my 2 secretary. I'll take it right here.
3 (Brief pause in the proc'edings) 4 MR. JACOBI: I apologize.
5 MS. VAN CLEAVE: For the record, that was a brief 6 conversation of Mr. Jacobi with his --
l 7 MR. JACOBI: Secretary.
8 MS. VAN CLEAVE: -- secretary. All right. I 9 would like to know what his understanding of this license 10 was prior to June and after June, actually, of 1995, and I 11 think it does have some significance because that was not 12 on the license and I would like to know the answer to that.
13 MR. JACOBI: Well, strangely, I think he's 14 already answered it. He said that prior to meeting with 15 you in June, he understood tritium to oe tritium, and 16 though he doesn't remember when he first read the license, 17 he is clear that after meeting with you, this license 18 requires the distribution of tritium only from Canada.
19 Is that a fair characterization of what you just ,
1 20 said?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: But I would like to know again, 23 if he can recall -- I'm going to ask him one more time -- 6 i
24 MR. JACOBI: Sure, 25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: -- if he read this prior to June NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. l (202) 234-4433 l f
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13 1 and if he did, what his understanding of this little 2 seu. ion here of the license is that I just read.
3 THE WITNESS: Tritium -- l l
4 MR. JACOBI: It's a compound question. Do you l 1
5 recall reading it prior to June of 1995? Do you recall?
l 6 THE WITNESS: No. !
7 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
8 Q As the president of IWI, you do not recall having l 9 read the NRC license prior to June of 1995; is that true?
10 A That's true.
11 Q Okay. And what occurred in June of 1995 to -- I 12 believe you said --
13 A You paid me a visit.
14 O All right. And what was your understanding from 15 that point forward?
16 A That there's a potential problem with an 17 alternative tritium source.
18 o You and I did not discuss tritium sources.
19 A You had mentioned African tritium to me.
20 Q No, I did not mention African tritium to you. I 21 had no idea that such a thing existed. That is not true, 22 Mr. Gregor.
23 A Okay.
l 24 o I had no idea such a thing existed. I had no 25 idea that IWI had entered into negotiations with anyone.
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14 1 You and I did not discuss this. You and I discussed what l 2 was being sold, night sights and things like that, but we 3 did not discuss tritium from any other source.
, 4 Now again, after that visit, what W3F your 5 understanding about tritium?
6 A That the amending process, because of the African 7 tritium, the amending process, we were going forth with 4
8 that and providing the NRC with the proper documentation 9 that they required.
10 0 Who did you tell that to in the NRC, if anyone?
11 A I have a lobbyist-consultant that works in 12 Washington, D.C. that communicates to the NRC directly.
13 Q When did you hire that consultant?
14 A May, June, that time frame.
I 15 Q Prior to my visit or after my visit?
1 16 MR. JACOBI: If you don't know, say so. !
l 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
19 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
20 0 Did you personally have any discussion with 21 anyone at NRC about the South African tritium and about i 22 possibly amending your license to include the South African i
23 tritium?
24 A I may have talked to Ms. Greene one time. I know 25 I've communicated with letters through the lobbyist, but NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 15 1 I'm not sure if I talked to her directly.
2 Q Do you recall if you had any such conversations 3 prior to May or June when you hired your consultant -- and 4 his name is?
5 A Morgan Casner.
6 0 -- since you hired Mr. Casner? Now, prior to 7 your hiring of Mr. Casner, do you recall if you discussed 8 that subject with Ms. Greene?
9 A No, I don't.
10 0 Or anyone else at the NRC?
11 A No, I don't.
12 O Have you met Susan Greene?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Have you been to the NRC offices in Washington 15 and talked with anyone up there personally?
16 A No, I haven't.
17 0 Then have your communications been by telephone?
18 A I have communicated to the NRC through our 19 lobbyist, Bruce Casner.
20 MR. JACOBI: He's also said that he's written 21 letters to the NRC.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
24 O Prior to hiring Mr. Casner, did you have any 25 conversations with Ms. Greene?
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1 A Earlier, I had said that I don't recall if I have 2 ever talked to her on the phone.
3 0 What about any other individuals with the NRC? i 4 Do you recall if you've spoken with them?
5 A It seems to me that Ms. Greene was the one 6 heading up this whole project long before I ever got here. I 7 I've heard that name for a long time and that's why I don't 8 know the other names. They don't mean a thing to_me. i 9 0 So have you spoken with anyone else at NRC 10 besides -- you said you didn't recall if you spoke with Ms.
I 11 Greene.
12 Have you spoken with anyone else? )
13 A I don't believe so. j 14 MR. JACOBI: You mean ever?
lb MS. VAN CLEAVE: In the NRC.
16 MR. JACOBI: In Washington?
17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: In Washington, excludina myself 18 and this conversation.
19 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
20 0 Can you just run through the scenario of how you 21 became involved with the South African tritium source, and 22 what transpired to lead you there to eventually purchase 23 from them? I can ask you specific questions, but if you 24 wouldn't mind just running through that scenario, I would f 25 appreciate it.
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17 1 THE WITNESS: Is that all right with you?
2 MR. JACOBI: Please.
3 THE WITNESS: At the SHOT show last year, which 1
4 is a show -- it's an acronym for Shooting, Hunting, Outdoor 5 Trade. It was in Las Vegas, Nevada. We had a booth there l 6 and we had talked to -- l 7- MR. JACOBI: Dave, speak up. Talk louder.
8 THE WITNESS: We had a booth there and we talked 9 to an individual involved with SRB.
10 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: l I
11 Q That's SRB Technologies?
i 12 A Right. His name was Brian Pullen. Brian came to l I
13 our booth and was not very cordial witn us. After l 14 listening to Brian, we felt it was in our best interests 15 that he probably is not after our best interests, and 16 therefore, it would behoove us to possibly look for an 17 alternative source.
18 Q What did Mr. Pullen say to you to lead you to 19 that conclusion?
20 A I didn't talk directly to him. I heard him 21 talking and the gist of the conversation was something to 22 the effect that he sells us tritium, he is going to go into j
23 the night sight business and he's got the best of both 24 worlds.
25 As he was sarcastically and -- it was a real NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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18 1 unprofessional way to do things, in my opinion, and at that 2 point, I felt this guy is not after our best interests.
3 Q Who was he speaking to? You said it was not to 4 you.
5 A There were several people there. You know, I 6 don't know that because I never heard that name before 7 until that day. I really didn't know who SRB Technologies 8 were, let alone Brian Pullen, and then you put two and two 9 together. I don't know who he was speaking to.
10 Q So at that time in January of 1995, you did not 11 know that SRB Technologies was IWI's source of tritium?
12 MR. JACOBI: Now wait. That's not what he said 13 at all. He said he didn't know who Brian Pullen was. He 14 didn't associate Brian Pullen's name with SRB.
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Oh, okay.
16 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
17 Q So you did not know tnat he was with SRB?
18 A No, ma'am.
19 Q Okay. What did you think he was doing, I mean, 20 saying these things? Did you --
21 A That's why I said you put two and two together 22 during this conversation and then you start paying 23 attention to what people say. There were people coming 24 talking about, you know, all sorts of things and lo and 25 behold. as this escalates, I only caught part of it, but I 1
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19 1 knew that this was probably not good for IWI or the future 2 thereof. That's what I remember from that conversation, i
3 Was it directed at me? No, ma'am. Can I tell 4 you every -- no, I can't. That's what I remember. To the 5 best of my knowledge, that's what I remember. I remember 6 this is not going to be good for IWI.
7 Q And did you know what SRB Technologies was, who 8 they were?
9 A The tritium people from Canada.
10 Q Had you had any dealings with Mr. Pullen?
11 A No.
12 O Had you seen his name anywhere on any 13 correspondence or anything like that?
t 14 A Possibly, but again --
15 Q You didn't make the association?
16 A I don't -- right.
17 O Who is responsible for purchasing the trit;ium 18 from SRB Technologies?
19 MR. JACOBI: When?
20 BY MS. VA.N CLEAVE:
21 Q Prior to January of 1995, who was responsible for 22 purchasing the tritium?
23 A I don't know.
24 Q Did you purchase by signature on a purchase order 25 any tritium to your knowledge prior to that time?
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t 1 A I'm sure purchase orders have my signature on it.
2 We purchase a lot of things, but the actual call to Canada
, 3 and say, "I want to purchase," I don't really do that, but l
4 I do sign purchase orders.
l 5 Q So did you have any discussions with anyone at 6 SRB Technologies that you can recall prior to January of l
7 19957 i
8 A I don't believe so.
9 Q Any involvement in the purchasing other than the 10 fact that your signature may appear on a purchase order?
1 I
11 A I don't believe so. j 12 O And again, do you know who would have handled l
! 13 that here?
I l
14 A I would imagine Pat handles a lot of the POs and i 15 things like that. I'm assuming. That's my assumption.
l 16 Q All right. So Mr. Pullen came to your booth at 17 this SHOT show and was making some comments that led you to l 18 believe that there may be some problems for IWI; i .s that i 19 accurate? l 1
1 1
20 A That's correct. 1 1
21 Q And what happened then?
l l 22 A He left.
23 Q Okay. And then were there some discussions about l l
r 24 what was said between the individuals at IWI?
25 A Well, I'm sure at one point in time, Ken and I 1
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. . 4 21 1 discussed this relationship probably is not .ing to go 2 anywhere. When you have a person that is actual -- your 1
3 actual supplier basically saying, "I have the best of both I i
i 4 worlds and I control you," that's not a good position to be l 5 in and it didn't give me a warm and fuzzy. j l 6 I am sure that Pat, Ken and I had talked about we i
- 7 need to rectify this because there's a problem coming.
8 This relationship isn't good.
j 9 0 What did you do next? Were any steps P.aken to 10 locate an alternate source of tritium?
11 A No, there wasn't.
12 O What happened? How did you get involved with 13 these individuals or this company, Lumitech and Ramrod?
14 A There was a gentleman that stopped by the booth.
25 How he heard of us I don't know.
16 MR. JACOBI: You're referring to the SHOT show?
17 THE WITNESS: The SHOT show booth, yes, sir. He 18 stopped by the booth, identified himself, identified his 19 company, and said -- asked me where we had purchased our 20 tritium, and I had told him it's Canadian tritium, it's 21 SRB, and he had said, "If ever in the future you need help, 22 I can help you with that."
23 He came out of the blue. I had never met the man Il 24 before, never heard of his company, and he approached me.
25 It may have been that very same day, to boot.
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22 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 O Who was he?
3 A His name was Mark Ager.
4 Q And who was he with?
5 A A company called Ramrod. .
6 Q Did you say he approached you personally rather 7 than IWI?
8 A No. He approached IWI.
9 0 Okay. Who did he approach with IWI?
10 A I know I sat in. There's tables at the SHOT show 11 and we sat down at the table, and I can speak for myself, I 12 was there. I can't tell you that Ken sat there or Pat sat 13 there, but I do know that I sat there.
14 Q What did he say?
15 A And I'm sure there were other people with me, 16 too.
1 17 0 What did he say, Mr. Ager?
18 A He just said that if you need an alternative 19 source of tritium in the future, I can help you with that 20 problem, and I had told him, it's funny. I don't know if 21 this was divine intervention or what, but it's funny that 22 you should say something to me like that because I just had 23 a relatively bad experience not but recent.
24 O Then what happened?
25 A And then I started sharing with him the SRB, what j l
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1 Mr. Pullen had basically said the way he said it and the 2 conflict that was probably going to ensue after that.
3 O And if you can just continue with telling me how 4 you became further involved witn Lumitech and Ramrod?
5 A At a later date -- and I don't know what that 6 date is, but at a later date, Mr. Ager had invited me to 7 come talk to him about this back-up tritium source.
8 Q Did you initiate further contact with Mr. Ager or 9 did he initiate contact with you?
10 A Don't know. We struck up a friendship, a 11 relationship and an ethical business relationship and our 12 relatior.ohip grew f rom that . His company is involved in I
13 after-market accessories of which he utilizes tritium.
14 That's why he came to me.
15 It was kind of a marriage made in heaven. He's 16 already doing it and he's distributing it in South Africa l 1
17 and he had just come to me, as he may have to come to 18 Trijicon and Meprolight, and said, "We have a source here."
19 I don't know if that's totally true. I'm surmising that, 20 but that's the way he came to me because his product is 21 tritium, too, which I did some research and found that he 22 is an honem , ethical businessman, the kind that I like to 23 deal with, and then the relationship escalated.
24 At a point down the road when we were getting 25 nowhere fast and he had said -- you may want to even come NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l 24 1 over here and visit and let's take this thing further --
l 2 Q Now, he being Mr. Ager?
3 A Yes. Let's take this further. We can show you 4 the facilities and we can show you what we do and you may i
5 want to consider that.
6 Q Did you do that? l 7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Do you recall when you went to South Africa?
9 A I'm going to guess late March, early April.
10 0 And what did you do while you were in South l
l 11 Africa regarding tritium?
12 A I went to Ramrod and again, their whole business l I
13 is accessories for weapons, for scopes, for flashlights for 14 the sportsman, and spent a day or two there. He showed me 15 his operation, showed me what he does, and then he had ;
i 16 said, "I have set up a meeting with the tritium people from 17 the Atomic Energy Commission, specifically Lumitech. They i
18 would like to meet with you tomorrow. Would that be fine?" l 19 I said, "Sure."
l 20 Q What is Ramrod's relationship to the Atomic 21 Energy Commission?
22 A Lumitech supplies the tritium to Ramrod for their 23 products.
- 24 0 Okay. That very next day, we went over to 25 Lumitech, the Atomic Energy Commission, and met with them
^
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25 1 and discussed the possibility of in the future purchasing 2 2 tritium from Africa.
3 They had asked me where I had been purchasing and 4 why I was considering an alternative, and I leveled with 5 them and said, "We're having problems with them. I need to 6 know that this business will continue to run. I don't have 7 that feeling by dealing with Canada and I feel that in the 8 best business sense and practice, I need to find an 9 alternative source."
i 10 Prior to that, I had called several j 11 organizations. I had even called the DOE community trying 12 to find out how I could get a secondary source because it's 13 just a matter of time until something's going to be wrong, 14 to no avail, really to no avail.
15 Ken and I spent one solid day calling everywhere 16 trying to find out how can we alleviate this problem, and I 17 talked to Lumitech that day and shared all that with them 18 and told them my problems and told them why I -- what I'm 19 doing over here, and we just sat down and talked.
20 Q Did you arrive at any business arrangement by the 21 end of your visit?
22 A No. They had told me that they could supply the ;
23 tritium, that's not a question, not a problem. And if we 24 could further that relationship, that would be fine.
25 0 And then you came back here, I guess --
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26 1 A Yes, I did.
2 0 -- is that right?
3 A Um-hum.
4 Q And then what happened?
5 A Relationships were continuing -- they weren't 6 getting any better with SRB.
7 Q Were you continuing to order during this time 8 from SRB?
9 A I don't know that. I don't know that.
~
10 0 I just wondered what led you to say that tnings 11 were not getting any better.
12 Did you have any dealings with them?
13 A Well, the communications that -- again, the only 14 time I talked to Brian Pullen -- listened to him talk was 15 at the SHOT show, and things appeared not to be getting 16 anywhere fast. He had said that he was going to apply for j 17 an NRC license and made the statement that he was going to ;
I I
18 put us out of business.
19 Again, when I say, I don't have a warm and fuzzy 20 when somebody does that, I mean that. That's a direct 21 threat to me. We have a little company here that we're 22 trying to do well and here our supplier is going to put us 23 out of business? What would you assume?
24 Q Had anything else heppened for that time period !
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1 better. Had anything else happened as far as your 2 dealings?
3 A I think delivery times started being a little 4 absurd, but specifically, I don't recall.
5 .O When you came back here from South Africa then, 6 did you discuss this with anyone else here at IWI?
7 A I'm sure I did.
8 Q Who?
9 A Pat, Pat for sure, and possibly Ken.
10 0 Were any decisions reached as to a tritium 11 supplier?
12 A We had thought that it would be in our best l 13 interests to place an order with Lumitech for their :
l 14 tritium, i
i 1
15 Q And who made that decision?
1 16 A I believe we corporately did it. j 17 O When you say " corporately," who do you mean?
18 A Pat and Ken -- Pat and myself.
19 O Did Ken Wilson have anything to do with that 20 decision?
21 A I don't believe so.
I 22 Q So you and Pat together decided to purchase 23 tritium from Lumitech or Ramrod; is that correct?
24 A Right.
25 Q Do you recall when an order was placed, the first NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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28 1 order?
2 A I'm going to say --
3 MR. JACOBI: Do you recall?
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
6 Q Can you give me an estimate?
7 A Estimate? Sure.
8 0 When would that be?
9 A June.
10 0 Do you believe that the order was placed in June 11 or do you think that's when you first received the tritium?
12 A I don't know.
13 0 Was there any problem receiving the first order?
14 A In what way?
15 0 Was it delayed? Was there ?n excessive delay?
16 Did you have any communications with them as to any 17 difficulties?
18 A I don't do shipping.
19 0 Well, this is purchasing.
20 A I really don't do purchasing either.
21 Q Well, then who would deal with Ramrod or 22 Lumitech?
23 A I would communicate with Ramrod.
24 Q Do you recall any problems with the shipments 25 from South-Africa?
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0 0 29 1 A I'm not sure what --
2 Q Any delays? Was there any communication with you 3 as to -- or did they just get your order and just ship it?
a 4 A I don't believe that was the case. All things 5 take time.
6 Q But you don't recall any problems, any 7 communications, any further discussions with them?
8 A No, I don't.
9 O Who placed the order? Was it you or was it Pat 10 or someone else here at IWI?
11 A It could have been I. It could have been me.
12 O Was it?
13 A I don't know that.
14 Q Do you know how the order was placed?
15 MR. JACOBI: Well, if it were moot court, I'd say 16 it's a conundrum. He can't possibly answer that question 17 based on his last answer. If he doesn't know who niaced ,
I 18 the order, how can he possibly say how it was placed? j l
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: He might know that all their 20 orders were placed by telephone from someone.
1 21 MR. JACOBI: Okay. Do you know how it was !
22 placed? license 23 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
24 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
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30 :
1 1 Lumitech or Ramrod? Did you have a contract? l l
. A No, we didn't. I 3 Q No? How would you usually -- how would IWI 4 usually place their orders? Is there some sort of a 5 standard procedure that IWI follows to purchase things?
6 MR. JACOBI: Purchase things from Lumitech?
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: From just in general.
8 MR. JACOBI: Anybody?
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Right. He said he doesn't know 10 how this happened. I'm just trying to see if there is a 11 standard procedure that was usually followed.
12 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no. I initiated 13 the conversation between -- Ramrod and Lumitech and I 14 communicated and got it to the point where we cou:d 15 purchase the tritium. How we purchased it, I'm not avrare 16 of. I really don't do purchase orders, even though, like I 17 told you, I sign them.
18 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q Who is responsible for purchasing?
l 20 A I don't know.
21 O Well, Mr. Gregor, you're the president of IWI.
22 Who is responsible for purchasing?
23 A I don't know. We have several people that do 24 that.
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31
,. 1 company and you don't know who's responsible for 2 purchasing? If you want to purchase something, who do you 3 go to? You just said you don't do purchasing, so if you 4 want to buy something, who do you go to?
5 A I don't go to anybody. I really don't purchase a 6 lot.
7 Q You never need to purchase anything? If you 8 wanted a new calculator for the desk, who would you go to?
9 A I don't purchase things.
10 0 You do not know -- you're the president of this 11 company and you don't know who you would go to to purchase 12 things? !
l 1
13 MR. JACOBI: He's answered the question five I
14 times so far, and incredulity, yours, is not going to show j 15 up on this tape because it's going to be typed. j l
16 Do you care to amend your answer in any way? ;
17 THE WirNESS: No.
18 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
19 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: )
20 0 So you do not know who's responsible for I 21 purchasing and do I understand you to say that you were not 22 responsible for purchasing? You communicated with Ramrod 23 and Lumitech, but you were not responsible for the 24 purchasing; is that correct?
l 25 A I do not know if I signed the purchase order. I J NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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i 32 i communicated to the point where we could potentia:.ly buy 5
2 this tritium.
3 Q Who made a decision as to what quantities to
! 4 purchase the tritium?
5 A It was possibly a corporate decision.
I l 6 O Do you know?
4 1 7 A No.
~
8 Q You don't recall who made the decision? -
! 9 A I don't recall.
3 10 Q You don't know how the figures would get from
{ 11 one, maybe we need this much, to the paperwork and to the 12 actual order? l i
13 A No, I don't.
14 O When you sign the purchase orders, do you look at 15 them?
16 A Sometimes.
17 0 Who else can sign purchase orders besides 18 yourself?
19 A Patricia.
20 Q Is there anyone else that can sign purchase 21 orders? j 22 A I don't believe so.
23 Q Were you familiar with IWI's New Mexico 24 possession license?
25 A Not very familiar, no.
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33 1 MR. JACOBI: Speak up, Dave.
2 THE WITNESS: Not very familiar.
3 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4
- 4 0 Were you aware that that license only authorized 5 tritium from SRB Technologies?
i 6 A At some point in time, I'm sure I became aware of 1
\
7 that. To my knowledge, that license allows us to handle l 8 tritium.
t 9 Q It's a possession license.
i 10 A Right.
11 Q Right. But prior to June when I believe you said 12 that you thought you perhaps ordered the initial -- you l l
13 being IWI -- ordered the initial tritium from South Africa, 14 were you aware that the possession license only authorized 15 SRB Technology tritium?
l 16 A No, ma'am. I 17 Q Do yo. have any idea when you became aware of 18 that?
19 A As I had stated earlier, the more we're involved 20 in this, the learning curve has gone up dramatically. It's 21 very hard for me to put dates and times and people and 22 occasions together to piece this thing. I am still 23 learning about the intricacies of the NRC and how to get 24 this amendment process performed, and again, it has been a 25 gross learning curve.
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l 34 1 Q So were you aware before June -- let me rephrase 2 that.
3 When did you become aware that the New Mexico 4
license -- I think that's what I asked -- authorized the 5 possession of only SRB Technologies tritium?
6 A I'm not sure when that was.
7 Q You dJn't recall?
l 8 A No.
9 Q Did you take any steps to amend the New Mexico 10 license?
11 A Yes. We sent --
12 MR. JACOBI: She's asking if you did. Are you 13 asking if IWI did or --
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: No, I'm talking about him 15 personally.
16 MR. JACOBI: Him personally. Did you personally 1
17 do anything? I l
18 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. All as I recall 19 paperwork was sent to Santa Fe concerning the environmental 20 license.
21 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
22 Q So someone at IWI --
23 A Yes.
24 0 -- did take some steps to amend the New Mexico i I
25 license; is that correct? )
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35 1 A Yes.
- 2 Q Do you recall when that was?
3 A No, I don't.
. 4 Q Has your license been amended?
5 A Yes, it has.
1 6 MR. JACOBI: Referring to the New Mexico license.
l 7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: New Mexico, yes, New Mexico.
8 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
9 0 It has been amended?
10 MR. JACOBI: Is that a yes, Dave?
J
, 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
12 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 13 Q Did you take any steps to also amend the NRC )
14 license to include distribution of tritium received from i
15 Lumitech or Ramrod? i Yes, I have. I 16 A '
i 17 Q What steps have you taken? f 1
4 18 A I have, through the consultant, Mr. Casner, l 19 supplied the NRC with the paperwork that they required on a i 1
! 20 continuing basis to rectify this license amending process.
a 21 Q Do you know what specifically has been provided 22 to the NRC? Now I'm talking only abcut this Lumitech-23 Ramrod situation on the tritium. Dc you know specifically 24 what's been provided to the NRC regarding that?
i 25 A Yes, I do, pretty much.
4 NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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36 1 Q What is it?
- 2 A All the questions that Ms. Greene's office has 4
l 3 asked us to answer, plus all the questioning on the line of
- 4 is the Lumitech tritium equal to the SRB tritium, and 3 substantiate that with documentation from Lumitech to 6 substantiate, and I provided that information to them.
] 7 Q Do you recall when the issue initially came up 8 with the NRC regarding the Lumitech or Ramrod tritium?
j 9 A No, I don't.
10 Q Maybe the summer, fall? Can you give me a 11 season?
12 MR. JACOBI: We're laughing because Ms. Wilson's 13 testimony acknowledging -- I may do this, may I not?
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Sure.
1 15 MR. JACOBI: -- acknowledging that her memory for j 16 dates is less than perfect, the questions had to do with 17 general seasons. So without being sarcastic, because they 18 didn't think it was, I'm trying to --
19 THE WITNESS: Well, I would imagine that it was 20 probably spring, summer seasons because I had come back 21 from Africa in April and had not purchased anything, struck 22 up this relationship. I would think that it was possibly 23 spring, summer.
24 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
, 25 Q Do you recall if the initial discussion with NRC
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37 1 regarding the tritium from this South African source was 2 verbal or if there was a request or a mention of it in 3 writing?
4 A I did not have an initial discussion with the 5 NRC.
6 Q So would it have been in writing then after your 7 consultant? Do you think that's the initial -- to your 8 knowledge.
9 A To my knowledge, everything has -- to the best of 10 my knowledge, everything that is handled through the NRC is 11 handled through our consultant / lobbyist.
12 Q Okay.
i 13 A Someone, and I don't know who this is, had 14 basically said that it would be a good idea if you hired a 15 consultant to handle these NRC problems. That's the way 4
16 things need to be done. I don't know who told me that.
17 And therefore, we went out and hired ourselves a consultant i
18 based on someone from the NRC's recommending that.
19 0 Does Mr. Casner have any background -- I'm just l 20 curious -- with dealing with the NRC?
21 MR. JACOBI: I asked the same question last I l 22 night.
- 23 THE WITNESS
- I don't know that.
24 MR. JACOBI: I can give you the answer I was
, 25 given. No. He seems to be a general lobbyist, as I l
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38 ,
1 gathered. l l
1 2 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I'm just wondering. I never l
3 heard the name, but that doesn't mean anything, of course.
4 MR. BOAL: How were you put in contact with Mr.
5 Casner?
6 THE WITNESS: There is a gentleman that works 7 here and he had said that, "He is an associate who handles 8 these types of concerns with other governmental agencies.
9 He is a lobbyist. If you would like, I can give you his 10 name and number and you can contact him." That's the way i
11 we first contacted Mr. Casner. I had never met him before, I 12 I never heard his name before, didn't know who he sas. '
13 Met the gentleman once and now we do business 14 over the fax and the phone and through writing, and he 1
15 delivers to whoever Susan Greene is.
16 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
1 17 THE WITNESS: And I've also heard a name of l 18 Patricia Santiago. I don't know who that is either, but 19 I've seen that name before, too.
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's Susan's boss now.
l 21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 MR. JACOBI: Susan Greene's boss?
23 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes.
24 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
25 O Do you know how many shipments of tritium you've NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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39 l 1 received from South Africa?
i 2 A No, I don't. I believe it to be one, but I don't 3 know that.
4 0 Who decides when to order tritium?
5 A Based on inventory.
6 Q And who looks at the inventory and makes that 7 decision?
8 A Patricia is better versed and handles the 9 inventory and the tritium supply. I don't concern myself 10 with that.
11 Q Have you sold any night sights with inserts from 12 Lumitec' or Ramrod?
13 A To my knowledge, no.
14 0 or any other source of any other tritium inserts 15 other than SRB Technologies?
16 A To my knowledge, no.
17 Q I have a letter, I guess it's to the NRC, I think l 18 it was to Susan, from you that was dated July the 17th, and 19 you said here, "Some of the South African tritium has 20 already been matched and could possibly be mixed in with 21 existing SRB tritium."
i 22 Do you recall that?
i l 2.; A May I?
l l 24 Q Sure.
I 25 A Yes.
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40 1 MK. JACOBI: Yes what?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do recall that.
3 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
5 0 can you tell me what that sentence meant? Did 6 you write this letter?
1 7 A Yes, I did. ;
8 0 "Some of the South African' tritium has already j 9 been matched and could be mixed in with existing SRB 10 tritium."
l 11 What did that mean when you wrote that? . What did i l
12 you mean by that?
13 A To my kncwledge, when tritium is brought in, what 14 personnel do is match the tubes for consistent intensities.
15 That is what we call matching. In.other words, from what I 16 have seen, there are inconsistencies in brightness no l l
17 matter'whose product you go after, whether it be 18 Meprolight, Trijicon or ours.
19 'That's a function of the tritium. So if you have 20 a sight that has a brighter dot on this side than it does 21 on this side --
22 MR. JACOBI: Indicating left from right?
23 THE WITNESS: Right. Indicating left and right 24 of the sight, the shooter picks it up and it does not 25 appear -- it's not a professional job. So therefore, what NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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41 1 you want to do is match those intensities to make sure that 2 they look identical.
3 From the way the tritium is received, it's 4
inventoried and matched immediately because that's a timely 5 process. You have to pick each one up and take it in the 6 dark room and look at it.
7 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
8 0 Who does that?
9 A The gals in the back.
10 0 What do you mean by the gals in the back?
11 A There's three gals in the back that match the 12 tritium.
13 O Are they the same ones that insert the tritium 14 into the sights?
15 A Yes.
16 0 Who are they?
17 A Beverly used to, Audrey does, Peggy does, and --
18 those three.
19 0 Okay. So when the tritium comes in, they match 20 them to find two that are the same. Is that what you said?
21 A To see that they're the same intensities.
22 O Right. Two that match?
23 A Right.
24 MR. JACOBI: Is it the idea to find two that 25 match?
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42 1 THE WITNESS: Right.
2 MR. JACOBI: So you go into -- they go into this 3 dark room carrying more than two?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MR. JACOBI: And they hold up to eyesight two 6 until they find two that match?
7 THE WITNESS: Believe it or not, yes.
8 MR. JACOBI: Okay. It's a freaky way to do it.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, until I got a machine here 1 10 that could do it much better than the human factor, I don't 11 know another way to do it.
12 MR. JACOBI: Is there a machine that does this 13 now?
14 THE WITNESS: They tell me that there is and 15 hopefully in the future, I can afford it, but I certainly l 16 can't afford to have people pick each and every one up and I
l 17 match it.
18 MR. JACOBI: Seems rather inefficient. i 1
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 0 So they go into this dark room and they do this.
22 Now, what do they do? Do they put each two that 23 match in a little baggie?
24 A There is -- I've never done the process.
25 Whenever they are done, I've seen the results.
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43 1 O Well, that's what I'd like to know. Are they in
- I 2 bags or are they in little slots? I mean, how do they 3 ensure that these two stay together?
4 A There is two-sided tape. You go like this, and i 5
then match the other one, and after that, I've seen baggles 6 back there myself. I don't know what phase that's in, but 7
in order to match them, you need to keep them together.
8 0 Okay. So after they match them, what do they do 9 with the tritium?
10 A Insert them into the PVC capsules.
11 0 Do they do that before they have the gun sights 12 ready? Is that something that they do and then -- 1 13 A Yes.
l 1
14 Q --
and then put all these back somewhere? '
15 A Yes.
16 O Where do they put them after that?
l 17 A In a vault in the room, l 18 MR. JACOBI: What's a PVC capsule?
19 THE WITNESS: It's the white tube that surrounds 20 the glass tritium vial. I don't know the technical term.
21 J call it PVC because that's what it looks like. It looks 22 like a small --
23 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: -- small PVC.
25 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
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44 1 Q The tritium then comes in and these three women 2 match it up, put it on two-sided tape, then they put it in l
3 PVC, and do they put it back on two-sided tape, I mean, to l ensure those two stay together?
l 4
5 A I believe they do.
6 O And then after they do that, you said they put it l l
7 back in the safe? Is that what you called it?
4 l q 8 A Right. There's a vault or a safe, much like l i
j 9 this. !
! 10 Q In the back. Who has access to that?
] 11 A The sight room gals.
1 12 O Is that a combination lock on there -- l 13 A Yes, it is
}
i 14 0 -- on the one back there in the back --
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q -- or is it a keyed lock? It's a combination? j l
4 17 A It's a combination. ,
I
- 18 Q Who has the combination?
19 A Audrey has it and I believe Patricia has it.
20 Q Do you have it?
21 A No.
22 O Have you ever had it?
23 A I have never opened that vault.
24 O Have you ever had the combination?
I 25 A I don't believe I have.
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45 1 O You've never opened it though?
2 A I've never opened it.
i' 3 Q And you don't recall if you've had the l
4 combination in the past?
5 A It could have been given to me, but I have no 6 need to open it. I don't do that for a living.
7 O So you have never opened that vault?
8 A I have never opened it.
9 O When you wrote this letter which is dated July l 10 the 17th, what led you to make this statement that some has 11 been matched and could be mixed in with existing SRB 12 tritium? Had you spoken with someone about it?
13 A Well, when it came in, I didn't know how far 14 along we were, and obviously, there was a potential problem l 15 here with the NRC concerning the African tritium, With 16 that in mind, I would stop everything until we found out 1
17 this was separate from the Canadirn tritium and let's not 18 ship or produce anything until we know that it's separated.
19 Q Had you spoken to anyone about what the status 20 was of the South African tritium?
21 A Unfortunately, I shut the place down at that time 22 frame because I did not know if -- I did not know if it had 23 been or -- I wanted to make sure that we didn't ship any 24 out, and until I could discern that, I wasn't going to ship 25 any product.
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. o 46 1 Q Well, you said down in the next paragraph, 2 "Because there is no way to determine if the South African 3 vials have been inserted and shipped," what did that mean?
4 A There was no way for me to determine that. I 5 couldn't tell you if they were mixed I don't do that 6 inventory and I wanted to be totally clear that until I .
I 7 know that this is Canadian and this is African, let's just j 8 not do anything. l 9 Q And your sentence continues, "We are stopping all 10 production until we can obtain approval to insert and ship 11 South African tritium."
12 What did that mean?
13 A Hopefully, the amendment process would allow us 14 to do South .ifrican tritium, at which time we could do 15 insertion and ship that type of tritium.
16 Q How long were you closed down?
17 A Possibly 2 week.
18 O Approximately a week? Now, your sentence here j
19 that says, "There is no way to determine if South African 20 vials have been inserted and shipped," did you subsequently 21 find some way to determine if that had happened?
22 A When Pat had returned from vacation, she had 23 known what Canadian tritium was there and basically that 24 the two were separated at that point. I don't match, I 25 don't put them in PVC, I needed to, you know, make a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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decision to not do anything until we could be totally sure 1 :
2 that the African product was over here and the Canadian l l 3 product was over here. That's the only way that I could do 4 it rightfully.
5 0 So are you saying you didn't know if there had 6 been --
7 A I don't know if any were mixed. I don't know 8 that.
9 0 When did she come back from vacation? Was it 10 during the week you were shut down or was it prior to that 11 or after that?
12 A She was -- I shut down when she wasn't here, so 13 she had to come back after I shut it down.
14 Q And what did you do then? Did you take some 15 sters to talk to her and try to determine where the South 16 African tritium was?
17 A She said that she would handle the separating l
18 problem of the Canadian to the South African, and when she I l
19 was totally sure that this is Canadian and this is South 20 African, then we started production again. !
21 Q What did she tell you? !
22 A She said that the Canadian tritium was separate 23 from the African tritium.
24 Q Did she said it had always been separate or that l 25 she subsequently --
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48 1 A I don't know that.
2 0 -- separated it? ;
3 A I don't recall that.
4 Q Did you or she or anyone else here, to your 5 knowledge, do an inventory of the tritium that was on hand 6 at that time?
7 A I don't know that either.
8 Q You have said that IWI did not sell, to your 9 knowledge, any tritium inserts from South Africa.
l 10 Do you know that for a fact? I mean, do you know l 11 if all that South nfrican tritium is here?
l 12 A No, I don't. Again, I don't inventory. I don't !
l 13 do that.
14 Q Well. I understand, Mr. Gregor, but you're the 15 pre sident of the company and you have made these statements 16 hure. I'm just trying to determine what steps you took to 17 ensure that none had been shipped or that none would be 18 shipped in the future.
19 I'm not saying that I expected you to go out and 20 physically count. I'm just trying to determine what steps 21 you, as the president, took.
22 A Patricia, because of her involvement in that, she i 23 told me that the separation, the Canadian and the African l l
24 tritium was separate, and that's the product that we had 25 been shipping from that point on. I did not count it, I i
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49 1 did not separate it, I did not open the vault. I didn't do 2 any of that.
3 0 Did you ask anyone else to do any of those 4 things, count it?
5 A No, I didn't.
6 O Do you know if there was a count done?
7 A No , I don't.
8 Q You don't know then if the inserts had always 9 been kept separate. Is that what you said? Or if they 10 were subsequently separated out? Is that what you said?
11 A Being not familiar with the matching and the 12 process that they do there, but knowing that a shipment 13 from Africa had come in, I just wanted to make sure, until 14 somebody who really does do that and knows about that, 15 could separate that product and that's wh'r I shut it down 16 until Patricia got back, because she's aware of those 17 things.
le Q So who do these three women report to, Audrey and 19 Beverly --
20 A Pat.
21 Q Pat is --
22 A Right.
23 0 -- the person they deal with?
24 What about night sights' that had already been 25 packaged and were ready to be shipped at that time? Did NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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A l 0 50 1 you know whether any of those contained South African '
i i
2 tritium?
3 A No.
4 O Did they go ahead and leave? Were they shipped l
5 out?
6 A To my knowledge, no.
7 0 What did you do with them?
8 A With what?
l 9 Q The ones that were packaged and ready to be
- 10 shipped out, the sights.
l l 11 A Of Canadian tritium?
l \
12 O No, I don't know. That's what I asked you. Did 13 you know if they were South African or SRB?
l l
14 A The ones that were packaged to be shipped out, l 15 we're sure that it was Canadian tritium.
16 O How did you know that?
- 17 A Because prior to the African shipment coming in, 18 everything in there was Canadian.
19 Q Right. But we don't know exactly when the South l 20 African tritium came in. We have an invoice from Ramrod 21 dated June the 6th of 1995. Your letter of July the 17th l
l 22 indicates that it had come in by then because it says, 23 "Some of the South African tritium has already been
. 24 matched."
25 A Why I probably put that in there was for test and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l c 6 51 1 evaluation purposes on South African tritium for NRC I
2 amending procedures.
3 Q No, I didn't understand that. What did you mean 4 by that?
5 A We all know that we want to get our license l
l 6 amended.
7 Q Yes, we do know that, right.
8 A That's pretty clear. The NRC had said that in 9 order to get this amendment done, we need to test and l 10 evaluate the African tritium to ensure that it meets the 11 specifications of the Canadian tritium.
12 And if, in fact, the two tritium sources are 13 identical, and if you do the testing, the amending process 14 should go as planned.
15 Q Who told you that?
16 A I am sure that that was -- no, I'm not sure.
17 Probably Bruce Casner through communications with the NRC.
18 Again, I communicate through a lobbyist now.
19 Q Can we find out when Mr. Casner was initially 20 hired by IWI? That might give me at least some --
21 A I'm sure we could by the first check that we 22 wrote.
23 MR. JACOBI: Do you want to ff.nd out right now?
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: All right. Let's go off the 25 record for a minute. We'll take a break. I could use a
! NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l
O '
52 l
1 break anyway.
2 (Recess) 3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Back on the record. We're back 4 on the record after a break to stretch our legs, and it's !
5 approxiinately 3 : 4 8 p.m. We were also trying to determine 6 when 2WI entered into an agreement with Mr. Casner and we 7 were unable to determine that, and hopefully we will find 8 that out at a later time.
9 MR. JACOBI: Well, we were unable to determine it 10 because the people from whom it could be determined are not 11 here, not because we couldn't determine that.
12 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, we couldn't determine it.
13 MR. JACOBI: Because nobody is here. It's 14 determinable. I 15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay. Hopefully we will 16 determine that later.
17 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
18 0 We were discussing, I think, the discussions that 19 Mr. Casner had with the NRC regarding the alternate source 20 of tritium, Ran. rod or Lumitech, and I was going to ask you 21 and I will ask you, but I'm not sure, without a date of 22 when Mr. Casner came in, do you know whether or not IWI 23 discussed that subject with the NRC prior to your hiring 24 Mr. Casner?
25 A No, I don't know that.
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o
- 53 1 MR. JACOBI: Speak up, Dave.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that.
3 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 Q Did you personally discuss that with anyone in 5 the NRC?
6 A No.
7 O Does IWI now have a written agreement with 8 Lumitech or Ramrod?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q Have you purchased any tritium from anyone other 11 than Lumitech, Ramrod, or SRB Technologies?
12 A To my knowledge, no.
13 Q Do you know when the last shipment of tritium was 14 received from SRB Technologies?
15 A I'm stuck on that June time frame. To the best I l
16 of my knowledge, that's when that occurred.
17 MR. JACOBI: We're talking about the lar*
18 shipment from SRB?
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: SRB.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, SRB? Oh, no. No, I don't know 21 that.
i i 22 MR. JACOBI: So you're amending your answer.
l i
l 23 THE WITNESS: I was referring to Lumitech's l
l 24 order. I'm sorry. SRB? No, I don't know that.
l
! 25 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
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. . . . .. = - . . .. . _ . . . _- -
l 54 1 Q Do you know if you or anyone at IWI attempted to 2 purchase any tritium from SRB Technologies since -- I was 3 here in June of 1995 and I was provided some invoices from 4 SRB Technologies. The last one was dated February the i 5 15th, 1995.
6 A Okay.
1 7 Q Have you attempted to purchase any tritium from )
8 SRB Technologies since that time? ;
9 A Yes, I have.
10 Q What was the result of that attempt?
11 A I had sent them a letter and said that -- I 12 explained to them that I would like to begin purchasing 13 again, could you please quote me price and availability, t 14 and they certainly did and it was a thousand percene l !
j 15 increase with a big delivery schedule.
16 MR. JACOBI: Big meaning the length 9 l
1 17 ~HE WITNESo: A long -- in other words, it !
l l 18 wouldn't be relatively quick. I forget the exact date. I
? l l 19 do know that the price was a thousand percent more than 20 what we were used to paying.
21 MR. JACOBI: Are you using a thousand percent as
, 22 a hyperbole and as an actual amount?
l 23 THE WITNESS: I believe we were initially paying 24 86 cents. He came back with a quote of $10 and something 25 per tube. It's probably not a thousand percent, but it's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l l
. =
55 1 grossly --
2 MS. VAN CLEAVE: It's much higher. Okay.
l 3 MR. JACOBI: Close to a thousand percent.
4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
5 O Did you purchase any anyway even --
- 6 A No.
i 7 0 -- given that price? No?
8 And you said earlier that you believe you had 9 only received one shipment of tritium from Lumitech or l 10 Ramrod; is that correct?
l
- 11 A To my knowledge, that's correct. !
12 O What is your supply of tritium now, do you know?
)
13 Is it 1cw?
14 A I'm sure it is. Again, not doing that, I'm sure 15 it's low. We're getting down to -- how low? I don't know.
16 Again, Pat's involved with the inventories, but I'm sure 17 it's just a matter of time.
18 MR. JACOBI: What's just a matter of time?
19 THE WITNESS: Until we exhaust the Canadian 20 supply.
21 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
22 O What will you do at that point?
23 A Probably close business --
24 MR. JACOBI: And maybe sue the NRC for not 25 amending the license on time.
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56 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Not probably close 2 business. We will have to shut our doors completely. We 3 will have to.
4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
5 Q What percentage of IWI's business is the sale of l
. 6 night sights?
7 A A large, large percentage. Even though I told l 1
8 you that I am the gunsmith and I work on guns daily, that 9 may only account, even though I am busy daily working on J
10 guns, that may only attribute to four or five percent of 11 the total value of IWI. This building would be a little 12 bit too big for Dave to continue to just work on guns, 13 O Are you saying that the remaining 95 or 96 14 percent is the sale of night sights?
4 l 15 A I have never broken it out accordingly. I don't j
16 know that, but the largest part of this business is the 17 tritium night sight business. .
- 18 0 Is there anything else besides the sale of 19 tritium sights and your gunsmithing? Does IWI have any 20 other interests to bring in income?
21 MR. JACOBI: IWI or the parent?
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: No, IWI of New Mexico.
i i 23 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no.
} 24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
25 MR. JACOBI: And so the record is clear, and I'm NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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57 1 not making a speech at this point, maybe Mr. Shapiro and 2 his friends will start l_stening to what I am saying. They 3 don't call me back anymore. Mr. Shapiro, Daryl Shapiro, 4 promised me that, more than four weeks ago, that he would 5 investigate for me and get back to me the next day as to l 6 what the status of this amended license was.
7 I have placed more than 30 phone calls to him l
8 since then.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Would you like me to tell you 10 the status that I was told yesterday?
11 MR. JACOBI: I'd be happy to, but I also would ;
12 like Mr. Shapiro to have the courtesy to tell me. What is 13 the status as of yesterday?
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Now, you understand this is what 15 I was told.
16 MR. JACOBI: Not quoting it as fact other than 17 somebody told you and you were telling me.
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I don't have anything to do with 19 the license.
20 MR. JACOBI: Understood.
21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I spoke with Doug Broaddus 22 yesterday.
23 MR. JACOBI: Who is Doug Broaddus?
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: He is in sealed source and 25 device review.
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i 58 1 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
2 MS. VAN CLEAVE: And he said that it was his 3 understanding that the initial thing to be done from the 4 NRC viewpoint was to check on the tritium, to try to get 5 that straight rather than the rest of the license. There 6 are some problems with the sales of gun sights and they are 7 trying to amend the types of gun sights they can sell.
8 MR. JACOBI: I understand.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: But that was supposed to be 10 assigned to someone, probably him, and he does not know how 11 long that's going to take, but he said that Mr. Casner had 12 just last week brought in the final, what they hoped to be 13 the final document, on the amendment request, all the 14 information that was requested by the NRC.
i 15 MR. JACOBI: Well, you were right. I'm not going I l
16 to quote you on it because I have no idea what you just i
17 said exactly other than some guy named Broaddus says I 18 don't know when I'm going to get an answer out.
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I know you're not very familiar 20 with the --
21 MR. JACOBI: I am familiar with the government.
22 I am also familiar, sad to say, and I'm not saying this 23 with any great adoration of government or any great ;
24 distaste for government, that right now, the United States 25 government in the person of the NRC is, maybe legitimately NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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59 1 or maybe not so legitimately, in a position to be putting 2 people out of work and closing this company down.
3 That may happen simply because somebody has 4 chosen not to move with the alacrity that citizens might 5 wish they had. And whether Mr. Broaddus did or not 6 communicate this to you and whether you understand it or 7 not yesterday, I am exacerbated to a fault with Mr.
8 Shapiro. I am not used to being treated quite with this 9 disdain.
1 10 I don't care about how people treat me. I care 11 about how people treat my clients. There will be a message 12 going off to Mr. Shapiro and to the NRC when I get back to 13 New York, not because of anything here, but because of what 14 you've just told me and further inaction about this, 15 advising the NRC that I intend to commence against them.
16 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, let me explain to you.
17 Mr. Broaddus is just an individual who does sealed source 18 reviews.
19 MR. JACOBI: I understand.
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: He is not a supervisor or 21 anyone, but I understood that it was assigned to him, which 22 he told me it has not been, but that is why I asked him.
23 MR. JACOBI: My concern, and I say it with great 24 anxiety, is that it's very easy for things to fall into 25 cracks and I mean no malicious intent by the NRC or anybody NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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60 1 else. It's just floating out there and people's lives are 2 also floating out there.
3 And if this company closes down, which may or may 4 not become a fait accompli, when they run out of Canadian 5 tritium, when they run out, then the lease doesn't get paid 6 anymore and some girl named Audrey or Beverly, and somebody 7 doesn't buy milk and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
8 There's trickle up and there's trickle down. I'm very 9 distressed by this kind of thing.
10 So.I've said my piece and it's for the record and 11 I hope Mr. Shapiro will refer to this record when it s 12 typed.
13 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
14 Q The sales of gun sights, do you have any dealings 15 with specific customers regarding the sale of gun sights?
16 A What types of customers?
17 Q Any customers.
18 A There are people that walk in the front door and 19 say, you know, do you -- can you put night sights on this 20 gun, and if the answer is yes, so yes, I do have dealings 21 with customers.
22 Q What about the large customers who purchase in 23 quantity? Do you handle any of those transactions?
24 A Yes. I do much the same service as I did with 25 Lumitech and Ramrod in that get this to a certain point and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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I
j 61 1 then business will run its course. So yes, the larger 2 ones, we don't have that many. There's probably only a 3 couple, but if you call them large, that's - we're not the ;
1 4 Meprolights or the Trijicons, so our large is their l
i 5 pittance.
6 Q What was your understanding from the NRC license, 7 if you had an understanding, as to what type of night 4
8 sights IWI was authorized to distribute under that license?
]
9 A Again, as the learning curve has gone up, i 10 whenever I initially worked here, we put sights on 11 virtually anything that came in the door, and with that in 12 mind, that is what I had thought that we were allowed to 13 do.
14 This is a tritium night sight company. The terms
- 15 min and max tolerances had been -- I had written on those, i 16 and it seems to me that that's what the NRC was totally i
17 intent about, and Ms. Greene, thrcugh, I'm sure, Mr. ,
l 18 Wilson, had said in order to do this amending process, you 19 have to be more generic. You have to be more non-specific.
20 You have to -- a sight is a sight and a tube is a tube and
~
21 we're concerned about a min / max tolerance and I don't care 1
22 what the sight looks like. I don't care.
l I 23 That's the understanding that I had and !
24 therefore, that's the way that we proceeded to rewrite the i
1 25 amending procedure to be all-enccmpassing, to be more what 1
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O
- 62 1 the NRC wanted. Does that mean that I did it perfect?
2 ProbElly not, but I took my best whack at it.
3 Q Okay. But that's going to be the amendment on 4 the license, but what about the license as it stands now, 5 which it has not yet been amended as we have been i
6 discussing? What is your understanding of the license now 7 as far as what IWI can distribute for night sights?
8 A Again, that license is so ambiguous to me, I do 9 not understand that license. I truly don't understand that a 10 license.
11 Q What is IWI selling, do you know?
s 12 A Tritium night sights. Tritium night _ights for q
13 rifles, handguns, pistols.
- 14 Q For anything? Any kind of weapon?
I 15 A Yes. To my knowledge, yes. )
16 Q Mounted or unmounted?
i 17 A I don't understand that mounted or unmounted. I i 18 don't know what that means. Mounted -- what does mounted 19 mean?
20 Q On the weapon.
i 21 A We do that.
- I 22 O What atout unmounted, loose, sight sets? )
j
' I would assume that we could do that, too. We 23 A ,
, 24 did that prior to.
- 25 Q Prior to what?
NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. i l (202) 234-4433 l 1
63 1 A Prior to -- well, since IWI was in business, they 2 used to sell gun sights.
3 0 The license lists nine. It says up here, "The 4 following apply to removable sights manufactured by the 5 licensee," being IWI, and then it cites Colt, Glock, Sigs.
6 "The following apply to removable sights manufactured by 7 the OEM, original equipment manufacturer, Smith & Wesson."
8 And those are listed, removable sights.
9 Then at the front it talks about weapons 10 identified where the licensee has mounted the sources onto 11 the weapons, meaning the sights are on the weapon, on the 12 slide. And these others are listed separately as being 13 removable sights.
14 Did or does IWI sell removable sights that are 15 not listed on the license?
16 MR. JACOBI: If you don't know the answer to this 17 question, please say so.
l 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer because I 19 don't know what these numbers, what they mean, models G, C, 20 F-003, and a whole list. I don't know what that means; 21 therefore, I don't know the answer.
22 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
t
- 23 Q Who at IWI would know the answer to these things?
24 A I believe that that initial license was generated 25 through Mr. Mowry.
s NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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64 1 MR. JACOBI: No. The question is, who at IWI 2 would know today or since January of this year, if sales l
~
. 3 are being made, other than as set forth -- relating to 4 items other than as set forth in this license? Isn't that 5 what you're asking?
6 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes. I understand Mr. Mowry was l 7 the former president, but I'm talking about now.
8 MR. JACOBI: And so do we.
I THE WITNESS: I don't know if anyone here truly 9
1 10 understands that. I certainly don't.
i 11 MR. JACObI: No, that's not the question either.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 MR. JACOBI: If I'm using the wrcng name, forgive j
14 me because I don't know anything about guns, but I don't l 15 see the name Beretta on this. I assume Beretta is not 16 manufactured or listed on any of these. If I walked in 17 here into this office with a Beretta and I say, "Please put 18 a night sight onto it," do you know whether that night 19 sight would be put onto my gun? Is it a gun? Whatever it 20 is. Onto my Beretta.
21 If you do not know, say so.
22 THE WITNESS: Do I know --
23 MR. JACOBI: Do you know whether anybody has put 24 a night sight on a Beretta?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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.
- I J
65 1 MR. JACOBI: Yes what?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, we have.
3 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 o I guess what I really want to know is, who makes 5 the decisions as to whether or not IWI can and/or will put 6 night sights into a specific sight, either existing sight 7 or a new sight on a weapon.
8 Who makes that decision whether or not it would 9 fall within the NRC license?
i 10 A Again, with all these model numbers, sights are, 11 in your mounted and non-mounted, the terms to me are 12 ambiguous, much like the license. Gun sights can be taken i
13 on and off of guns. l 14 Q I understand.
15 A Much as tires can be taken on cr.d of f of 16 vehicles. I would certainly hope that the vehicle that I 17 hought had tires, but that doesn't mean that. So I look at 18 gun sights -- and again, I'm not understanding the 19 terminology -- mounted and unmounted, our business is to 20 sell gun sights.
21 Gun sights can be put on the gun or I can have I 22 you put them on the gun. I'm assuming that we can do that.
j 23 o Why are you assuming that?
24 A It's been my understanding that we can do that.
25 O From whom?
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o .
66 1
1 A That I don't know. That's just an assumption 2 that I have.
3 Q The license starts out saying mounted, sources 4 mounted onto the weapons. The next section says, "The 5 following applies to removable sights manufactured by the !
6 licensee."
7 So there's a distinction here between mounted and 8 removable or mounted and unmounted, depending on -- this i
9 actually says mounted and removable.
10 You don't feel that there is a distinction?
11 A One way to -- when it says what you just said, 12 sources mounted, one way that one could view that is, this
- l i
l 13 tritium source needs to be mounted in that gun sight.
14 Q Well, it says on weapons, though.
- i 15 A But it says sources mounted to gun sights, 4
16 doesn't it?
17 Q It says, "The licensee has mounted sources onto
! 18 weapons," not sights.
19 A Okay.
, 20 Q You're shaking your head.
21 A I can't answer that.
. 22 O You did not see -- I'm asking you, do you see a 23 distinction between where it says mounted onto weapons and 4
- 24 then it says removc.ble sights manafactured by the licensee, 1
25 IWI being the licensee?
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, . _ _ _ _ . _ . . . . _ . . . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ . . . ._.-....__._._..._.m_
0
- 67 l
1 A Again, with all the model numbers and things that 2 are listed there, it becomes ambiguous to me. Maybe to 3 this model, you could do it, but to this model you can't, ,
l 4 and to this model you can, and to this one you can't, and i l
5 it's ambiguous. I don't know the answer to that. l:
l l 6 0 Well, you're the president of IWI. Let me ask i
7 again. :
l 8 Who at IWI would decide what they believed'would (
l 9 be in compliance with the NRC license and whether or not if !
l 10 I come in as a customer that IWI-will put tritium inserts
! 11 into sights that I may have? Who would make that decision? j i
12 A Again, to my knowledge, what we could do -- and I i
13 don't know, this is to my knowl dge -- what we could do is !F 14 put tritium into sights to sell as gun sights. That is the ,
15 assumption that I made whenever I became involved in this !
16 company because it was done before.
17 O Did you know that Mr. Mowry had problems with the.
18 NRC?
j 19 A I didn't know what the problems were, but I i
20 assumed he had problems. -
1 21 Q Why would you assume that?
22 A From hearing people talk.
23 0 Mr. Mowry has had a black book, and Patricia 24- Wilson and I have talked about that, with the NRC license f-25 and some other things in there and it was left here.
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. i l' i r
5 68 1 Did you ever review that black book?
2 MR. JACOBI: What black book?
3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Oh , it's just a book.
4 MR. JACOBI: A physical book that was black? ;
f 5 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yeah, um-hum, that has the --
f 6 Ms. Wilson referred to that.
7 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
8 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That has the NRC license in it and some communications with IWI.
9 10 THE WITNESS: I've seen that book.
t 11 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: l l
! 12 O You have seen that? Did you review the documents 13 contained in it?
14 A If we're speaking of the same book, that book is 1 l
15 probably this thick and it has regulations, also, in it, l
16 which did I peruse every document in there? No, I haven't 17 read every document .n there.
18 Q Did you read any of the correspondence, the 19 letters from the NRC to IWI?
I 20 A Yes, I have.
! 21 Q And were you aware of the specific problems that 22 IWI was having with the NRC?
i 23 A The specific problems, no.
24 O Some of the letters, it's my understanding, in 25 that black book do reference some of the problems, though.
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i e J f 69 j 1 Is it your testimony that you didn't read those j 2 letters?
I
'3 A I did not read those letters. I had heard that 4 one of the complaints was for stamping of sights. I did I i j 5 not read that letter. I had heard that. I think probably i !'
- 6 Pat told me that, but I did not read the lette-
?
i
! 7 0 Who is actually in control of IWI?
I j 8 MR. JACOBI: What does that mean? i l
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I'm trying to determine who 10 makes the decisions here, who decides what is going to be 11 sold, who decides what's going to be purchased.
12 MR. JACOBI: Okay, fair question.
13 THE WITNESS: Pat and I do.
14 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
15 Q And yet, if I misunderstood you, I believe you 16 said you didn't -- you don't believe you read the license 17 until perhaps June, guessing, approximately June c' 1995.
18 MR. JACOBI: No, actually he didn't say that.
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: What.did he say?
20 MR. JACOBI: Well, you asked him when the first 21 time he read the license was and he said he didn't know.
22 Then you asked him was he aware of -- when did he become 23 aware that it was limited to -- there might be a problem in 24 holding South African tritium, and he said when he talked 25 to you in June.
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70 t 1 But we never established from him when he might !
l 2 have read it for the first time.
l 3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
t 4 MR. JACOBI: But I don't dispute the implications 5 you want to draw from this, he hasn't read the license
'G until later on.
l 7 THE WITNESS: The license has been a lesson in l
8 futility for me because I can't make heads or tails out of 9 it. l l I l 10 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: l l
11- Q But when did you read it?
i l 12 A I have read it off and on a lot and I still can't
! 13- make heads or tails out of it. The guidance that we had 14 through Mr. Casner was, let's rewrite this thing to make it 15 workable for you so you can compete with the other 16 companies.
17 Q But Mr. Casner, if I understand your testimony 18 correctly, was only hired within the last four or five 19 months is that correct?
20' A I would have to wait and check with Pat and Ken I i
i 21 when the first check for his consultation fees was cut. j 22 MR. JACOBI: But we think May or June was your 23 testimony.
- 24. MS. VAN CLEAVE: I believe you said -- yes. I
]
25 believe you said May or June and that would be four or five 1
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1 months, and you've been the president, did you say, since l
\
l 2 November of '94? i 1
3 MR. JACOBI: Now wait a second, wait a second.
4 Subject to their reviewing and finding the contract, it's l l
5 my understanding that Casner has a three-month contract 6 with IWI, and this is the third month of it. Since this is i 7 October, that would indicate, assuming it's a three-month 8 contract, that the first month was August.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, we have a letter .n here 10 from him dated in July --
11 MR. JACOBI: I know, but I don't know if that 12 means : . .a t he was employed at that point.
13 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Perhaps the contract was renewed 14 maybe?
15 MR. JACOBI: I don't know. We'll find out when 16 they get back.
17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
18 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q So who was in control -- who was in control? Who 20 made these decisions before Mr. Casner was hired as a 21 consultant in May or June, whenever we determine that to 22 be? You were in place, Ms. Wilson was in place as 23 corporate officers.
24 Who was making decisions back then?
25 A We both were.
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72 1 Q But did you ever read che NRC license to say this 2 is what we're supposed to be doing? This is what we're 3 authorized to do?
4 A Again, that license is ambiguous to me. With all 5 the model numbers, the way that it was initially written, I 6 don't understand that license. I don't understand that 7 license.
8 Q Did you take any steps to try to understand it?
9 A Yes, through communications with the NRC to try 10 and get it amended in such a way that we could work within 11 the system.
12 Q And when did you take those steps to comr/.unicate l 13 with the NRC? ,
i 14 A I would imagine it was when Mr. Wilson was back .
I 15 in Washington. I don't know when that time frame was, but 16 he had communications with some people back there to try 17 and alleviate the problems that we were having and to get 18 this rectified and changed so we could be competitive.
19 0 When Mr. Wilson came back from Washington, did 20 you have any discussions with him as to what the license 21 meant?
22 A I'm sure I did. What I remember from that was 23 start initiating a broader-based license, more generic, 24 more -- don't be specific. The min / max tolerances, give 25 min / max tolerances, but don't -- be generic in design.
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73 1 Q I understand that, but that has to do with an 2 amendment of this license. Until that license is amended, 3 IWI is still working under this license right here.
4 A Yes.
5 Q So did you have any discussion as to what that 6 license meant, the license that IWI was authorized to sell 7 night sights under?
8 A I don't know if we did or not.
9 Q Then did IWI -- is it your testimony that IWI 10 sold night sights on any type of weapon?
11 MR. JACOBI: Not would they have. Did they.
12 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
13 Q Did they.
14 A Did they on any type of weapon?
15 0 Any type of weapon. I underst ad you to say all 16 you thought that the business was to sell night sights.
17 A Yas.
18 MR. JACOBI: He said t; it .
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 Q So did IWI then sell night sights on any type of 22 weapon? Was there any prohibition as far as you were 23 concerned --
24 MR. JACOBI: Wait, wait, wait. That's a compound 25 question and the prohibition may not be the same thing as NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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74 1 did they.
2 MS, VAN CLEAVL. All right.
3 MR. JACOBI: Did somebody prohibit them from 4 selling, but did they sell to -- did you sell to anyone 5 which sale would have violated the terms of that license?
6 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's not what I asked.
' MR, JACOBI: I know it isn't, but that's what 7
i 8 you're asking without him understanding it, i
9 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
10 Q Did IWI sell night sights, as far as you were 11 aware, on any type of weapon that people might bring in, or 12 were there -- it's still a compound question -- or were 13 there any prohibitions as to what could not be sold?
14 MR. JACOBI: Let's answer each question.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 MR. JACOBI: Did IWI sell -- I'm going to 17 rephrase it for you and you don't want me to.
18 MS, VAN CLEAVE: No.
19 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
20 0 Did IWI sell -- did IWI sell night sights on 21 various types of weapons? How about that?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. JACOBI: But that doesn't have anything to do 24 with this list.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Just a minute.
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- 75 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 O Listed here are Smith & 'tesson, Glock, Sigs and I
3 Colts. That's listed here on page two of your NRC license.
4 Did IWI sell any night sights on any weapons that 5 were not~ listed here? These are the ones that I just 6 named.
7 MR. JACOBI: Let's take just manufacturers 8 because he keeps saying the numbers confuse him.
9 MS. JAN CLEAVE: Okay. l l
10 MR. JACOBI'. Let's take those four --
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, the problem with that is 12 that some of these sights are manufactured by IWI to fit 13 Glocks.
14 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
15 O Is that not correct, Mr. Gregor?
16 I. Yes.
17 MR. JACOBI: So try and answer it the way it's 18 asked l
19 THE WITNESS: One more time.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 Q Okay. If I can repeat that. i 22 Did IWI sell night sights on weapons other than i 23 those listed here on page two?
24 A Again, with these numbering systems here, we have 25 sold sights for Smith & Wesson and Colt and Glock.
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76 1 Q But other than those, how abcut Taurus, H&K?
2 A We could have.
3 MR. JACOBI: Did you, is the question.
4 THE WITNESS: We probably did, yes.
5 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
6 Q Now, do you know if the sights were mounted on 1
7 weapons or if they were unmounted? Loose, you know, the 1 8 little sight sets.
9 A No, I don't.
10 Q And who would know that?
11 A On those specific weapons?
l 12 Q No. I said ot..er than these.
13 A I don't follow that, i
l 14 Q Who would know what your sales have been as far l
15 as -- on other weapons other than these listed here?
16 MR. JACOBI: Is Taurus a weapon? Is H&K a j 17 weapon? I mean, is that a manufacturer?
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes.
19 MR. JhCOBI: Who would know if IWI sold night 20 sights to or for a Taurus or an H&K weapon?
21 THE WITNESS: I'm sure we could pull the files.
i 22 MR. JACOBI: Do you know?
! 23 THE WITNESS: No. I don't do that. I'm sure if 24 we pulled the files, we could get you that question.
25 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
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77 1 O Okay. You don't do that. Who does?
2 A Sales department has work orders, accounting.
3 0 was the sales department ever told or given any 4 parameters within which they could work, you can sell night 5 sights for these weapons and these have to be mounted or 6 anything like that?
7 A I don't know that.
8 0 were they given any instruction by you?
9 A I don't believe so. Prior to becoming president, 10 we sold night sights. That was the business and that's 11 what we continued to do. The ambiguity of the license is l
12 very confusing.
13 Q Are you familiar with sales to Miniature Machine 14 Corporation of Fort Worth?
15 A Somewhat. i 16 0 Who handled those sales?
17 A Probably myself.
18 Q Who negotiated getting MMC as a customer?
19 MR. WILSON: You were looking for me?
20 MR. JACOBI: Do you want to go off the record for 21 a minute? This has to do with the Casner --
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Let me go ahead and finish this.
23 We can come back to that.
24 MR. JACOBI: Okay. We'll be right there.
25 MR. WILSON: Okay.
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- 78 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 O Who negotiated getting MMC as a customer? ;
I 3 A I believe Dale Kreisman called me and asked me if j 4 he could insert or if we could insert for him and I said we 5 could, provided that minimum and maximum tolerances were 6 adhered to.
7 Q Where did you meet Mr. Kreisman?
8 A Probably at the SHOT show.
9 O The one we've been talking about in Las Vegas?
10 'A That's right.
I 11 Q What was your understanding of MMC's busir.ess? l 12 What do they do?
i 13 A They sell sights.
14 O Who manufactures those sights? i 15 A They do.
16 O What was it that Mr. Kreisman wanted IWI to do?
17 A To provide the tritium inserts for his line of 18 sights.
19 0 And how would that work?
20 A He would machine the sights to the dimensions 21 that we have to adhere to. They would .>e sent up here, we 22 would do the insertion, and then send them back.
23 O And did that take place?
24 A Yes, it did.
I 25 O Did you believe that those sights would be NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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< i 79 1 covered under IWI's NRC license?
2 A Yes, I did.
) 3 Q Why did you believe thaty 4 A Because that was done in the past with some other 5 companies and I assumed that that was allowable.
6 Q What do you mean? What other companies?
, 7 A I believe it was done in the past with Millett.
i 8 I Lad heard we had done things with Wilson. I had heard
^
9 that. I don't know that. Again, I'm assuming that.
10 0 Uhen you say things, you mean where these
]
11 companies had manufactured their own?
i 12 A Installations for a company.
- 13 0 Where they had manufactured their own sights and 14 IWI put the tritium inserts inside those sights?
- 15 A Yes.
J 16 Q Is that. accurate?
I 17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you <now where those sights would be covered
. 19 in the NRC license?
20 A The minimum and maximum tolerances that we had 21 discussed via the license as long as the sights were 22 manufactured to these tolerances, that would be acceptable.
f 23 Q To what tolerances are you referring?
. 24 A The front sight, for instance, would have to have l
J 25 a 10,000ths wall on each side and an 18-20,000ths, so NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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80 1 therefore, the front sight or the sight was surrounded by 2 sufficient amount of steel. That was the prescribed 3 tolerances.
4 0 Where did you get those figures?
5 A I'm sure it's a drawing from a book somewhere. I ,
6 didn't dream those up. Those have been what we've had to 7 play by since I got here.
8 0 When you say prescribed tolerances, what do you 9 mean? Prescribed by whom?
10 A I would imagine the prior people who submitted 11 the license to the NRC. The license should have this i
12 tolerance on it and the tolerance happened to be 10,000ths {
13 on the side and 18 to 20 on the top. On a drawing.
14 Q On a drawing? l 15 A On a drawing.
16 Q And did you provide that to MMC?
l 17 A I don't believe I did. I gave them the i
18 tolerances though. I may have provided it, but I'm sure 19 that i said that what we have to maintain a certain amount 20 of steel between the tritium and the sight and these are l 21 those tolerances.
22 O And you don't recall exactly where you got those 23 tolerances?
24 A I'm sure from the book from the prior management i
25 here. Those are the only tolerances that I've ever written f NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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e 81 1 to the NRC about because that's the ones that have kept 2 coming up. This is what -- I don't care how big the sight 3 is. I want to make sure that the hole -- that there's 4 enough steel on both sides and above. That was what I've 5 understood as far as what they're concerned about 6 tolerances.
7 I wrote for the longest time. I thought they 8 wanted to know about dovetails, and lo and behold, after 9 several communications, the NRC could care less about the 10 size of the dovetail. The only thing I can figure is the 11 actual hole itself that houses the tritium capsule in 12 there. The NRC wants to be sure that there's enough steel
]
13 surrounding it. That's my assumption.
14 0 What do you think that you gave Mr. Kreisman, 15 just the dimensions verbally?
16 A Just the verbal dimensions.
17 Q Do you know if you gave him any other 18 specifications or anything?
19 A No, I don't know that.
20 Q How did he respond?
21 A Favorably he said. He said, you know, we can do l 22 that and if that's what you have to play by. that's what 23 we'll do. I 24 0 It's my understanding that these sights are 25 proprietary and they have patents pending design, utility i NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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2 Do you know if that's correct?
3 A On sights?
4 O The MMC sights.
5 A No, I don't know that.
6 0 What category did you think that these sights fit 7 into in IWI's NRC license?
8 A The same category that fit into what the sights 9 prior to me taking the position that I did have, where I 10 referred to the Milletts and the Wilsons if they had done 11 them. Those sights were sent in from another sight company 12 to have installations done.
13 Q Those sights were not authorized by the NRC 14 license.
15 A I didn't know that.
16 Q You had no idea that that was one thing that got 17 Mr. Mowry into problems with the NRC, was the sales to 18 Millett?
19 A What I was under the understanding was the 20 Millett sights were not stamped. I didn't read the letter, 21 but I had heard that the Millett sights were not stamped 22 and that was the problem. I don't know if that's true.
23 That's what I had heard. I wasn't privy to that and I 24 never discussed it with anybody at the NRC saying what got a
25 him into trouble before if, in fact, he is in trouble.
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83 I
1 Q As the president of IWI, you didn't take any 2 steps then to find out what problems Mr. Mowry had in order 3 ta not repeat them?
4 A Well, Mr. Wilson met with several people at the 5 NRC, of which I don't know who they were, I would think 6 last spring, and I didn't realize there was a problem. The 7 guidance was rewrite the license more generic.
l 8 0 Why did you believe that the license needed to be l
l 9 rewritten if there was no problem?
l 10 A Obviously there was a problem. When the NRC 11 writes back and says Mr. Mowry can't be involved with the 12 company, that's a pretty good indication that there's a
! 13 problem.
14 o Did you take any further steps at that time to l
15 determine what the problem was?
l 16 A We've had correspondence, but for the NRC to send 17 a letter saying this is the -- these are the problems, no, 18 I don't believe I've read anything like that.
19 Q But the question was, did you take any steps to 20 try to determine what the problems were?
21 A By Mr. Wilson going back to the NRC in Washington 22 and talking to whoever he talked to, the understanding that
)
l 23 I had was rewrite the license more generic, broader.
I
! 24 O But again, why would that be necessary? What was i
25 your understanding as to why that would be necessary?
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84 1 A Because possibly it could be too specific. The 2 opposite of specific is broad. If someone tells you that, 3 you know, don't be specific, be broad, let's rewrite it and 4 amend it to the way we should have it to be competitive.
5 0 Well, that's correct. The opposite of specific 6 would be broad. So if you were going to rewrite the 7 license to be broad, did you ever question, well, is the 8 license specific?
9 A I may have.
10 MR. JACOBI: By the way, the opposite of specific 11 is un-specific.
12 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, I realize that.
13 MR. JACOBI: I'm not sure --
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: In *.his context, I think that's 15 probably close enough.
16 BY MS.-VAN CLEAVE:
17 0 You may have. What does -- you may have. What 18 does that mean?
19 A Let's go back to the question again.
20 Q I asked you whether or not you ever thought that 21 -- you said, I think, the opposite of broad was specific --
22 that if you have to rewrite the NRC license to be broad to 23 be in competition. Is that how you phrased it?
24 MR. JACOBI: To be competitive, he said.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Competitive.
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. i 85 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 o Did you ever question, well, maybe our license is 3 specific now?
4 A From reading the license and words like mounted i
! 5 or unmounted into these certain models, all these other 6 things, it is very, very confusing. My intent was to make 7 it so a novice could pick up the license and say, "You can j 1
- 8 put tritium into gun sights and be competitive with the l
9 other two companies," and to me, get rid of all those model l l l 10 numbers, whatever they are and whatever they mean; have l l
11 minimum, maximum tolerances, and do not worry about what l 12 the sight looks like as far as -- I forget the terminology 13 in there.
l 14 The NRC is not concerned about the sight itself.
15 They're concerned about the min / max tolerances. That is l
! 16 what I assumed and that's why I wrote the license and l 17 submitted the paperwork the way I did, to try and get all 18 things amended so we could be competitive.
19 O Bu'. if I understood you earlier, you have stated 1 20 that you believed that you could sell night sights.
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q Period. ;
23 A Yes, I did. j 24 Q So why would you need to amend the license to be i
25 competitive if you could sell night sights anyway?
4 NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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t 86 1 A Because there's obviously a problem with some 2 models here, whether it be mounted or unmounted, fixed or i
3 adjustable, this or that, and I didn't understand what J 4 modifications needed to be made.
4
- 5 So therefore, let's rewrite the whole thing and 6 get it down the way it should be so we could be 7 competitive.
8 Q But if I understood what you said to me, you were 9 selling night sights regardless of the weapon. You were i 10 selling night sights.
11 MR. JACOBI: No, he hasn't said that.
12 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, he said night oights were 13 night sights.
14 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
15 MR. JACOBI: He has not specifically 16 affirmatively stated that he has sold night sights to 17 anybody other than what's on that license.
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, he sold night sights to 19 MMC.
20 MR. JACOBI: Is that different than those on the 21 list?
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes.
23 MR. JACOBI: Then I stand corrected and I 24 apologize.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
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87 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 -Q I'm trying to understand, I guess, your thinking 3 back there. If you know you have to amend the NRC license 4 or' you think you do to be broac? so that you'll be 5 competitive, what did you think the current license was?
6 I've asked that three times, but I'm not really 7 understanding your answer.
8 There must have been a reason that IWI's jumping 9 through all these hoops and talking to the.NRC for a year 10 and pulling their hair out and trying to get something 11 done What was that reason?
- 12. A Again, the Milletts and the Wilsons from the 13 past. I'm assuming that we can do that, we're allowed to 14 do that. The questions that the NRC had, asked me, they 15 were really concerned about stamping, so I wrote and told
' 16 ' them how they would be stamped, the size of the stamps, all 17 the technical features that they were questioning.
18 Based on what was sold in the past, I'm assuming 19 that we're allowed to do that. We tried to get the 20 stamping and things of that nature, those are the responses 21 I gave to the questions.
22 O Where is the -- I mean, the license just says 23 they will be stamped. The license already says that.
24 A Right.
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1 as you complied with that. The licensee shall ensure that 2 when a weapon must be labelled rather than the sight, the 3 attachment complies with the criteria, and it says model l
l 4 number such-and-such will be stamped with the isotope and j
l 5 the manufacturer's logo. And it goes on to say exactly i
l 6 where if you can't get it right on the sight, where to 1
7 stamp it on the weapon and that kind of thing.
l t
l 8 How were you being more specific than that 9 regarding stamping?
10 A I would have to refer to the letter that the NRC 11 sent that I answered the questions, which I could do.
l 1 l 12 Q Well, of course, if you're going to amend your l
l 13 license, that's going to be addressed, but I'm asking, how j 14 did you believe that there would be anything different on 1
15 the stamping? You seem to be --
16 A If, in fact, one of the things that the NRC was 17 involved with Mr. Mowry was the fact that he did not stamp 18 certain sights, if in fact that was, which I don't know, I 19 had heard it was, that to me was a key thing, to make sure 20 that the NRC knows that yes, everything will be stamped.
21 Q Well, that's true, but the license says it will
! 22 be stamped.
23 A But I had heard possibly that some in the past l 24 weren't stamped. That's why I'm saying that.
25 O Right, but the license says they will be.
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4 89 1 MR. JACOBI: You don't have to amend the license 2 --
3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Right.
4 MR. JACOBI: -- to handle the question of whether 5 things should or should not be stamped.
6 MS. VAN CLEAVE: The license already says that 7 they will be stamped, so all you have to do is comply with 8 that condition. There's nothing different. I mean, I'm 9 not going to discuss whether Mr. Mowry did or did not stamp 10 it, but all you have to do is comply with that stamping.
11 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
12 Q Now, my question to you is, what did }au think 13 you were doing with the NRC all this time? What were you 14 trying to do? The license doesn't have to be amended just i l
15 to stamp it. It already says they will be stamped.
l 16 What did you think that IWI was doing with the 1
17 NRC for a year? What did you think had to be changed? l 18 MR. JACOBI: What uncompetitive edge did you l 19 think you had that required an emendation of the license?
i 20 How's that?
l 21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay. That's fine.
l 22 MR. JACOBI: Maybe, I don't know.
23 THE WITNESS: It seemed that Meprolight and 24 Trijicon could basically do any installation, any -- just j 25 any installation where we were limited, to some degree, on NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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90 l 1 what we could do. The limiting factor again gets confusing 2 on the license because of the reference to the model 3 numbers. i i I l 4 MR. JACOBI: Okay. !
l 5 THE WITNESS: I am still not totally sure on what 6 all those numbers mean. I based a lot on the prior company 7 doing these things with other companies because that's 8 where the license was generated from.
l 9 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
10 Q Did you limit your sales of night sights in any 11 way?
12 A I don't know that. Did I limit my sales?
13 0 You said that your license appeared to be 14 limiting.
15 Did you limit your sales in any way? Was there 16 any kind of night sight that you believed you could not 17 sell?
18 A It seems to me on there, a Smith & Wesson 19 manufactured by Smith & Wesson, that is not the way I would 20 have written it. That's a limiting factor. It needed to 21 be written, a two dot rear sight for a semi-auto pistol.
22 That is limiting.
23 Q Did you purchase -- did you manufacture Smith &
24 Wesson sights or sights for Smith & Wesson pistols or l 25 weapons?
i
(
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l 91 1 1 A Yes, we have.
i 2 O So you did not always use the original equipment 3 m nufacturer; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 0 And when did you discover that that's what the 6 license said, the following applies to removable sights 7 manufactured by the original equipment manufacturer, and it 8 lists Smith & Wesson?
9 A Approximately the June time frame.
10 Q Was that when I was here?
11 A I would believe so, yes.
12 Q Do you recall that you and I had some discussion 13 about that?
14 A Okay. Yes.
15 0 Okay. Were there any otner limiting factors 16 besides that that you saw in this license? Any other 17 prohibitions, as Mr. Jacobi said, that led you to believe 18 you weren't competitive or couldn't be competitive with 19 Meprolight or Trijicon?
20 A Different configurations.
21 Q Of what?
22 A Of colors, configurations, how the sight should 23 look.
24 Q The colors are not addressed here, I don't 25 believe.
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1 So anything else?
2 A I don't believe so.
- 3 O Did you limit sales of night sights by IWI in any 1
4 way? Were there any night sights that you would not sell, l 5 that people were told we can't do that? They're not 6 mounted or they're not the rignt type of sight? Anything 7 like that that you can think of?
l
. 8 A I don't believe so. I
.i I
- 9 0 I'm still at a loss to understand this 10 competitive edge. If you were selling sights and not
]
11 limiting them in any way, I still don't really understand 2 12 why you believed you lacked a competitive ability with 1
13 Trijicon and Meprolight.
l 14 A Well, it seems to me that Trijicon and Meprolight i
15 could perform basically any installation, ship any sight 16 for anything or for any gun any way, where with those model 17 designations there, that is limiting and you basically have
- 18 to know what each and every model would be in order to do i
19 that.
20 Q What do you mean by limiting?
21 A The original equipment manufacturer, that's 22 limiting.
1 23 O That was something you said you did not a
24 understand until I was here in June; is that accurate?
l 25 A Right.
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93 1 Q Any other limitations in the license that you 2 see?
3 A I'm not sure.
4 MR. JACOBI: Can we be off the record?
5 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Let me just finish up this one 6 long question here.
7 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
8 Q What was your understanding of these models j 9 listed here? Did you know what they meant, models C, G, F-1 10 003 designed for Colt pistols? Did you know what those j l
11 things meant?
12 A I'm sure they crossed as something, but again, 13 the ambiguity of that, I'm not totally sure what they 14 meant, no.
15 Q What do you see as the ambiguity of the licenre?
16 It says models C, G, F-003, front dot sight designed for 17 Colt pistols. What do you see as ambiguous in that?
18 A That's pretty straight-forward. A two-dot sight 19 for any pistol is what the intent on the amended license 20 is, where that specifies the Colt. Now, another number 21 might specify another sight and another one would specify 22 another sight, rather than just a front dot and two rear 23 dots.
24 Q I understand that that's what IWI hopes to amend 25 their license to, but I'm still trying to get your NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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94 1 understanding of the license as it stands now and as it has 2 stood for several years. Inere are many other weapons, as 3 you know, you're a gunsmith, other than Colt, Glock, Sigs 4 and Smith & Wesson, which are listed here. There are many !
5 other sights. There are sights manufactured by other 6 companies such as Millett and MMC.
7 Where did those particular sights fall into this 8 license?
9 A I don't know that.
10 Q Did you take any steps to determine whether or 11 not those sights would be authorized by the distribution 12 license?
13 A I don't believe I did.
14 0 Did you take any steps to submit any of these 15 other sights to the NRC for a device review?
16 A I have submitted the configurations and the 17 tritium and the paperwork to the NRC for the device review 18 on the amended license.
19 Q And when was that?
20 A I would imagine it got delivered a week or so, 21 two weeks ago. We were waiting for some documentation from 22 Lumitech that basically spelled out that it was -- the 23 tritium was the same as the Canadian tritium. I would 24 guess a week or so ago. But that whole continuum of 25 writing has transpired over a long period.
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95 1 Q And included in that package, were there MMC 2 sights?
3 A No, there weren't.
4 O No?
5 A It was basically a ccnfiguration, and again, the 6 NRC guidelines was to be generic. I don't care what the 1
7 sight looks like as long as you have one dot and you have l 8 two dots. We have this amount of tolerance on each side. I 9 I don't care if the sight is this big or this big. And I 10 don't really care what the sight looks like. Just give me 11 the configurations, make it generic, and that's the way I i
l 12 wrote it because that's the way I thought I was supposed to l 13 write it.
i i
( 14 Q Are you familiar with device reviews that are 15 done by the NRC?
16 A No, ma'am.
i I
17 O Do you know what that means?
l 18 A No, I don't.
l l 19 Q Did --
20 MR. JACOBI: If this is a new line, could I get 21 him for a second?
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes. We can go off the record 23 at 4:45 p.m.
. 24 (Recess)
- 25 MS, VAN CLEAVE
- Back on the record. We are back d
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96 1 on the record at approximately 4:55 p.m. We've had a brief 2 break here to stretch our legs. ,
3 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: l 4 Q During that break, Mr. Gregor, did you consult 5 with your attorney, Mr. Jacobi? )
6 A Yes. !
7 O And did you have any clarifying statement that k 8 you wished to make?
, 9 A Yes, I do. The confusion on the license, the 10 license says that we can go into existing. I had said 11 earlier that we wanted to make our license more broad so we
] 12 could be competitive. The other manufacturers can make 13 their own sights for all the different weapons, and we 14 would like ours to be that way, too.
15 MR. JACOBI: You would like?
r 16 THE WITNESS:
We would like ours to be that way, 17 also.
18 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q So are you saying that you believed that the l 20 change in the license related to manufacturing sights for 21 weapons other than Colt, Glock and Sigs?
i 22 A Yes. We want to be able to manufacture here 23 those type sights for those type guns as opposed to 24 original equipment, which I didn't understand. To me, when 25 somebody says a Smith & Wesson sight, I take it as a sight NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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97 1 for a Smith & Wesson handgun, where it could be l l
2 misconstrued as a sight that Smith & Wesson makes, ,
! l 3 Q Again, you' re speaking _ lien to Smith & Wesson I l
4 where it says the following apply to removable sights 5 manufactured by the original equipment manufacturer, and
- 6 then it mentions Smith & Wesson.
i 7 Is that what you're talking about?
I 8 A Right. We would like the latitude to make the 9 Smith & Wesson sights like the other companies do. !
10 Q Well, it was my understanding from your testimony l 11 earlier that you were unaware that you could not do that l 12 until I was here in June of 1995. Is that not correct? j 13 A I was under the assumption that we could go inte existing, because the license spells out that we can go 14 15 into existing, but whenever you had said that it has to be 16 a Smith & Wesson as original equipment, I didn't know that.
17 Q Even though it says here manufactured by the 18 original equipment manufacturer and then it says three 19 models for Smith & Wesson? You did not understand that?
20 A No. I assumed that -- again, looking at a Smith l
21 & Wesson sight as a Smith & Wesson sight, a Glock sight is a
22 a Glock sight, a colt sight is a Colt sight, a Ruger sight 23 is a Ruger sight.
4 4
24 Generically, that's the name of the sight. You 25 wouldn't put a Sig sight on a Glock.
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1 O Well, what did you think manufactured by the 2 original equipment manufacturer meant?
- I l 3 A Basically the sights should be machined in such a l 4 way that it is equal to original equipment.
1 5 0 where does it say that? It says manufactured by 1 6 the original equipment manufacturer. Where does it say 7 equal to? I 8 A You brought that to my attention in June. l 9 Q What are you saying, that prior to that time, i 10 what did you believe?
11 A I assumed that a Smith & Wesson sight was a Smith 12 & Wesson sight.
13 Q No matter who was the manufacturer?
14 A No, I didn't say that. A Smith & Wesson was 15 manufactured ry Srith & Wesson for a Smith & Wesson pistol.
16 Q Well, wait a minute now. I'm confused.
17 thought you said that you wanted to be able to 18 manufacture sights for Smith & Wesson.
19 A I would like to manufacture sights here for all 20 gun companies.
21 Q And, in fact, if I remember your records 22 correctly, IWI had manufactured or had contracted out to 23 manufacture sights for Smith & Wesson --
24 A Yes.
25 0 -- is that not correct?
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99 1 A That's correct.
2 O So I don't understand what you just said when I 3 said regardless of the manufacturer of the sight. You said 4 not necessarily. Well, isn't that the case, regardless of 5 the manufacturer of the sight?
6 A We manufacture sights for specific guns. When 7 you pointed out original -- the way I think it is now, it 8 has to be original equipment on a Smith & Wesson in order 9 to have the sight put in.
J 10 0 Well, it says here manufactured by the original 11 equipment manufacturer. Now, that's only the Smith &
12 Wesson. And up here, it says manufactured by the licensee
- 13 and it refers to sights designed for Colt, Glock and Sig-14 Saur. So that is a little different.
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q And IWI is the licensee, correct?
17 A Um-hum.
< 18 Q So you are referring to the Smith & Wesson; is 19 that right? When you keep telling me about wanting to be 20 able to manufacture --
21 A And to be able to -- not only Smith & Wesson, 22 everything else out there.
23 Q Okay. Like what?
24 A H&K, Taurus, Astra, Firestart, all the different 25 manufacturers out there that you could possibly put sights NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 on. I l
2 O Okay.
l 3 A And there's a whole line of weapons manufacturers ;
1 4 out there. 1 5 O What about MMC? Let me go back to MMC here a 6 minute. What about MMC sights? How did you view them?
7 Did IWI manufacture any sights for MMC?
8 A No. MMC manufactured their own sights.
9 O Always? I i
l 10 A I don't know that.
11 O It's my understanding that IWI had manufactured ;
1 12 some front sights for MMC.
r 13 Are you aware of that? !
l i 14 A Manufactured some front sights. Could have 15 happened.
1 16 Q Do you know if it did?
l l
17 A Nn, I don't. MMC is a company that's called la Miniature Machine Corporation and they build sights. That 19 is what they do. I'm not saying we couldn't or wouldn't, 20 but they build sights much like -- that's what they do for 21 a living. If they bought sights from us, there could have 22 been some Glock sights without tritium that they bought.
23 O Okay. Do you recall that now?
24 A Yes.
25 O Did that occur then?
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101 1 A Yes, it did. Yes, it did. Dale wanted -- I'm 2 sure he was short and he needed front sights without 3 tritium to support his weapons and we had sold him Glock 4 fronts.
5 O So you didn't put any tritium into those after 6 you manufactured them?
7 A No.
8 Q What sights did you put tritium into for MMC?
9 A The line of sights that they offer. I'm sure he 10 offers Glock. He offers a whole line.
11 Q ! asked this befo're, but in light of what you've 12 said, where did you -- you said that you did put tritium )
13 inserts into MMC sights. They sent them to you, IWI 14 inserted the tritium and sent them back.
15 Where did you believe that those sights fit in.o 16 the NRC license, under what category?
17 A A Glock or a Sig sight to me was a Glock or a Sig 18 sight. Again, and I don't want to confuse -- if you look 19 at a Glock sight made by Glock or a Glock-type sight made 20 for Glock, I think that's where the problem is here.
21 They manufacture Glock sights. I looked at it as 22 it's a Glock sight that meets the requirements as far as 23 the min / max tolerances.
24 Q Even though your license, the IWI license says, 25 the following apply to removable sights manufactured by the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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. i 102 1 licensee, which is IWI?
2 A Again, we had done it for Millett and other 4
3 people before. I assumed that with that wording, a Glock 4 sight is a Glock sight.
5 0 What did you understand manufactured by the 6 licensee to mean?
7 A Manufactured in-house here.
8 Q so how did the sights manufactured by MMC fall 9 into that category?
10 A If it was a Glock-type sight, it was a Glock-type j 11 sight.
l 4
12 Q Right, but it was manufactured by MMC, which was 13 not the licensee.
14 A A Glock sight that fit the criteria as far as 15 min / max tolerances.
f f; 16 Q Can you be a little more specific? I can't i- 17 really understana how you categorize sights manufactured by 18 MMC into removable sights manufactured by the licensee, 19 which then cites Colt, Glock and Sig.
20 How did that tie into that category?
l 21 A Again, the sight is a Glock sight, whether it's 22 manufactured by Glock or manufactured by IWI or 23 manufactured by MMC or manufactured by whoever. It's a i
24 Glock sight is the way that I view that. !
l 25 O But your license doesn't say that. Your license NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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f 103 1 says manufactured by the licensee.
i 2 What was your understancing of that phrase?
3 A Again, assuming from before where we did 4 installatior.s for other people, I assumed that we continued 5 to do that for sight companies.
- 6 0 when I was here in June, you and I talked about 7 the NRC license.
8 Do you recall talking about the NRC license with 9 me?
10 A To some extent.
11 O I have some copies of some drawings that you 12 provided me that you told me were sights that IWI was 13 manufacturing through subcontractors.
14 Do you recall providing me with drawings like i 15 that?
16 A If you say I did, I did.
I 17 Q Well, do you recall it?
18 A No, I don't.
I 19 Q You don't reca?.1 t: hat?
20 A No.
21 Q Well, I have some drawings from IWI and you also 22 -- you mentioned to me thL those were all the sights tnat 23 IWI was manufacturing through subcontractors, and then you 24 and I had some discussion about Smith & Wesson, about what 25 the license says here and I asked you whether or not IWI NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 manufactured and put tritium into any other sights that IWI 2 manufactured. You mentioned a Smith & Wesson Sigma.
I 3 Do you recall talking to me about a Smith &
4 4 Wesson Sigma? l l
5 A No, I don't. j 6 0 You don't? j i
7 A No, I don't.
l '
4 8 Q Okay. You said that that was a different kind of i 4
9 weapon. I guess it's similar to a Glock.
10 Is the Sigma similar to a Glock? !
i l I
11 A A Sigma is similar to a Glock, right.
I 12 O Is it correct that you did, in fact, design a i
13 night sight for a Smith & Wesson Sigma and designed a sight 14 for the Sigma to put the insert into; is that correct?
- 15 A Did I?
16 Q Um-hum.
4 17 A No, I didn't.
18 Q Who did?
19 A Somecne at IWI, I'm sure.
i 1 20 0 And did you sell, IWI sell, the Smith & Wesson 21 Sigma sights with the tritium inserts?
2 22 A To my knowledge, no.
s 23 Q Well, I have some invoices that indicate that you 24 did from when I was here in June.
4 25 A Okay.
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1 0 Do you know whether or not IWI had ever request 2d ,
i 1 2 a device review on that product from the NRC?
3 A Device review that, I'm assuming, was covered in 4 the amending process that we're going through now.
5 O But the license, again, had not yet been amended.
6 So this is what --
7 A I do not know that.
8 Q -- is supposed to be -- your authorized to 9 distribute what's on the license now. What you're asking 10 for later is not my question.
11 Now, prior to your selling the Sigma night 12 sights, had you asked for a device review from he NRC? l 1
13 A I don't know that.
l 14 0 You and I talked about specific sights thr.t were 15 listed on the NRC license and the different companies l 16 manufacturing different sights and things like that, and i
l 17 where IWI was obtaining sights and what sights IWI was 18 inserting tritium into, out you didn't mention MMC to me.
19 Was there any reason for that?
l 20 A No. Again, we had dealt with Millett and Wilson 21 and some other companies in the past and I'm assuming that 22 we're allowed to do that.
23 0 Okay. Again, what led you to that assumption?
24 A The way business was run prior to.
25 0 But Mr. Mowry had problems with the NRC, which NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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106 1 you knew he had at least some problems with the NRC.
J 2 A But Mr. Mowry never shared the probletrs that he 3 had with the NRC to me. He never told me what they were. ;
4 It was none of my business.
5 Q But when you became president of IWI, did you -
1 6 believe that it then became your business?
7 A Sure, but the business being let's amend the 8 license to make it more generic rather than into existing.
9 Let's allow us to manufacture sights.
10 Q But I understand from your earlier testimony, you 11 did not take any steps to determine what Mr. Mowry's 12 problems were with the NRC; is that correct?
13 A Myself personally? I didn't call anybody up back 14 there and say, "Look, what can I do to help you people 15 out?" When Ken went back there and talked to whoever he 1
16 talked to, he said, "We need to start making an amendment j l
l 17 to the license," and therefore, I went to work writing. ;
l l 18 Me personally? Did I go back ar.d visit with
! i 19 anyone? No , ma'am, I didn't. I didn't know anyone, but I 20 started writing based on some conversation that Susan and 21 Mr. Wilson had and some questions that needed answerec, and 22 then that's where it started to materialize into, okay, we 23 need this mount and then we need this information and then 24 we need this information, and that's my involvement.
25 Q Has IWI solci to Wilson's? You mentioned i
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107 1 Wilson's.
2 A I've heard they had in the past. I don't know 3 that. They have a product that they call Wilson -- I've 4 lost the trademark. They sell tritium sights. They tell 5 me that Meprolight installs the tritium.
6 O So my question was, does 1WI sell to Wilson's?
7 A Presently no, we don't. Did we before?
8 O Have you in the past?
9 A I had heard that we did. I don't know that.
10 0 What about since you became the president?
11 A No.
12 Q No , you don't know or no, you haven't sold to 13 Wilson's?
14 A To my knowledge, we haven't sold to Wilson.
15 Q What about Millett?
16 A Yes, we have.
17 Q Since you became president?
18 A Yes, we have.
19 Q Do you know what was sold to Millett?
20 A It was the same type of relationship we had with 21 MMC, front and rear sights that meet the min / max 22 tolerances, stamped, and we filled them with tritium.
23 O What about Scattergun Technologies? Are they a 24 customer of yours?
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. e l 108 1 believe we are doing business with them now.
2 Q Have you since you became the president?
3 A We could have. I don't know that to be true. We l
4 could have, though.
5 C Are you still selling night sights to MMC?
6 A Yes, we are.
7 Q I have a memo from the sealed source and device 8 review that says n;at the sights from MMC do not meet the 9 criteria of what b..s been approved by the NRC for IWI to 10 distribute. I submitted the drawings and asked if they 11 fell within the parameter of the distribution license and I 12 have been told that they do not.
i 13 A Is that -- )
I 14 MR. JACOBI: That's not a question.
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's just a statement. I want 16 you to know that they do not fall within the parameters of 17 the distribution 1. cense as the license stands now.
I 18 MR. JACOBI: Can we see that memo? l 19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes, I have it with me.
l 20 MR. JACOBI: And this relates only to MMC? l 21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes. Those are the drawings 22 that I submitted to the sealed source and device review.
23 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
24 Q Do you have any idea how many night sights IWI 25 sold in the last year?
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109 1 A No, I don't.
2 O Do you know if that information is retrievable?
i 3 A I could imagine we could track it through work i
4 orders and steel orders, things of that nature, and 5 recreate it. To give it to you off the top of my head, I 6 haven't a clue.
7 Q Do you know if there's any kind of running 8 inventory list retained as far as the tritium that's here, 9 the tritium that leaves?
10 A I believe Pat has a list of current inventories 11 on tritium and there's a list of current steel available.
12 O Okay. Again, do you know whether or not IWI sold 13 any of the South African tritium inserts?
14 A No, I don't. To the best of my knowledge, no.
15 Q To the best of your knowledge, what?
16 A To the best of my knowledge, we have not sold 17 any.
18 Q You have not sold any? MMC has some invoices 19 showing receipt of red tritium inserts from IWI.
20 Where would the red tritium inserts have come 21 from?
22 A I don't know that. It would be obvious that that 23 would be African, but I wouldn't know that. I don't know ;
24 that.
25 0 You don't know what?
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4 110 1 A I don't know if it said red on there, what it 2 would lead me to believe that yes, it was sold, but I 3 didn't know that we sold it.
4 O Do you know how that could have occurred, if it 5 did?
l 6 A No. To my knowledge, we were selling them i 7 orange.
8 O And who dealt with MMC on the specific sales, do 9 you know?
10 A Specific sales? No, I don't. Getting to the 11 point of can we do business, it was Dale and myself. The 12 actual sales, I don't do anything with sales.
13 Q Let's say MMC is going to place an order. Who do 14 they contact, do you know?
15 A They just call up or send a PO'over the fax and 16 say this is what we'd like.
17 Q Who does that fax go to?
18 A Faxes are just received right here.
19 Q Okay. A fax comes off the machine and somebody 20 sees it's an order.
21 Who does it go to?
22 A A work order is originated at that point to fill 23 a sight order coming in. That's MMC's way of saying, 24 "Okay, there are sights coming and here's the paperwork 25 that starts that process."
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111 1 Q And who gets that paperwork?
2 A Any number of people that work up here.
3 Q Who would be responsible for keeping the South 4 African tritium from being sold?
5 A The sight room people and the people that have 6 access to the vault, to tne safe.
7 Q It's my understanding you said that was Audrey, 8 Audrey and Pat Wilson?
9 A Pat, I believe, has the combo, too. pat does the 10 inventories. I would assume that she would have the combo 11 to that.
12 O And the other individual was that Audrey? Is 13 that her name?
14 A Audrey and the girls that work in the sight room.
15 There are two other women that work there.
16 Q Who would have the combination, though? Who wold 17 actually go the safe and open it and take out the tritium, 18 do you know?
19 A Audrey.
20 Q Audrey? And you've stated earlier, if I 21 understood you, that you have never opened that safe.
1 l
22 A That's correct. !
23 0 Do you have the combination?
24 A No, I don't.
25 Q Did you in the past have the combination?
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112 1 A It could have been given to me. The combinations 2 that I open daily are this safe and the safe in the back 3 where the guns are. Those are the only two combinations 4 that I open. The other ones, I don't know what they are.
5 No, I do not have that combination.
6 0 Have you ever removed any tritium from that safe?
7 A No, ma'am.
8 Q No?
9 A No.
10 0 What steps, if any, have you taken to keep the 11 tritium from South Africa from being shipped out of *;WI?
12 A Pat has told me that she has separated it from 13 the Canadian and it's physically separated. In what way, I 14 don't know, but she says that it's separated. ,
i 15 Q Have you had any discussions with the women in j 16 the back who you said are the ones who match it and put it 17 in sleeves and then put it in the inserts? Have y^u talked l i
18 to them about that? I 11 9 A No, I really don't deal with them.
20 0 Why did IWI order all this tritium from South 21 Africa? The invoice that I have, I think, came from you to 22 somebody at NRC headquarters and I just have one invoice.
l 23 I'm showing approximately 20,000 inserts. !
24 Why did IWI order those back in June? The NRC 25 distribution license still only allowed SRB Technologies i NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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113 1 inserts.
2 2 A I wasn't aware that the environmental license a
j 3 needed to be corrected in order to house that tritium.
4 Again, the very first part of this conversation was 1
5 involved with SRB and the fact that we felt that we're 6 going to have a potential problem with them in the future, 7 and therefore, we should take some steps to get some i
8 tritium in here because that relationship probably will not 9 materialize.
3 10 At that point, the relationship had grown and l
11 grown and grown and an order was placed for that tritium.
12 I didn't realize that that license, the Santa Fe license, 13 needed to be amended to even house the tritium.
14 Again, as strange as it may seem, to me, tritium 15 is tritium, whether it's Canadian or aflican. I assumed 16 they're the same.
17 Q Although the two licenses specified SRB 18 Technologies tritium?
I 19 A Yes. You've shown me that.
- 20 0 And you've also said that at some point several 21 months ago, you became aware of that; is that correct?
22 A Yes. We have rectified the environmental 23 license.
. 24 o Yes, you've said you received the new possession 25 license --
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114 1 A Right.
2 0 -- right? Okay.
3 So what did you plan on doing with the tritium?
4 You did rectify the New Mexico license. You now, I I
5 understand from your testimony, you have a New Mexico 6 license that authorizes the possession of South African 7 tritium.
8 What was your intent as far as the South African 9 tritium that came in approximately in June?
10 A To hold it and pursue and proceed with the NRC to 11 hold and get the amendment certified and approved by the 12 NRC so w. can go purchase, sell, distribute tritium other 13 than .iRB's. ;
14 Q Did you take out any of the South African tritium 1; for anything, research and development, testing, anything?
l 16 A Yes, I tested and evaluated South African tritium )
i 17 based on the information that the NRC required for the 18 amendment of that license.
19 Q What did you test?
20 A Their tritium.
21 Q I mean, how many?
22 A I tested each configuration.
23 Q One, two?
24 A I believe there's nine or so.
25 Q So one of each?
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- 115 1 A Yes.
2 O Where did that tritium come from?
3 A That was African tritium. l i
l 4 Q Was it in this initial shipment of 20,000 some l 5 odd?
l 6 A Yes.
l 7 0 And I understood you to tell me earlier that you )
l 3
8 never removed any tritium from the safe. I 9 Did you ask someone else to give you those nine 10 or so inserts?
11 A I'm sure I told someone I need to evaluate the 12 African tritium. Put them in any kind of sights so we can l 13 evaluate them and test them.
14 0 Do you know who that individual would be?
15 A No.
16 0 would it be -- do you think it would be one of ,
1 17 the women back there that usually puts the tritium into the 18 gun sights?
19 A They would have put the tritium into the sights.
20- What sights I even asked for, you know, I'm not sure of.
21 Q So you don't recall who you dealt with?
l 22 A No. !
i 23 0 Do you recall if you specifically took those out? )
24 A I shot'the sights.
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116 1 of the safe? You said earlier you didn't, but now that I 2 brought up --
2 3 A No , I didn't.
4 0 -- research and development, have you now thought 5 maybe --
6 A No.
1 7 Q No, you didn't?
8 A No, I didn't.
J 9 O Somebody else did?
10 A Yes.
i 11 Q other than those nine or so tritium inserts, do 12 you know if any other, to your knowledge, if any other i 13 South African tritium was removed from that safe?
14 A To my knowledge, no.
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I don't have anything else right 2
I 16 now. Do you have any questions, Dennis?
l 17 Mo. . BOAL: Yes.
! 18 BY MR. BOAL:
j
< 19 O Mr. Gregor, backing up, earlier in the interview, i
l 20 you were talking about going over to South Africa and that 21 you went to Ramrod and then they set up an appointment for 22 you and the next day was going to be with Lumitech.
23 Back at that time, I believe you said it was 24 April of '95; is that right?
) 25 A Um-hum.
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117 1 Q Back at that time, was there any discussion by 2 them with you about the NRC license in the United States?
3 A No, there wasn't. I didn't even know the 4 principle involved with Lumitech. I had dealt through 1
5 Ramrod and while I'm over there, naturally I'm going to j i
1 6 visit the facility that would, in fact, possibly do the -
i 7 tritium for us. 1 l
8 O But did anybody there make any mention to you 9 that you had to -- that it had to be approved by the NRC or 10 they had contacted --
i 11 A No, sir. j i
l 12 Q -- or you did? )
l 13 A I don't believe so, no.
14 O Did you know that at that time?
l l l
15 A Could you restate the question?
)
16 Q Okay. Did you know that at that time when you
. i 17 were there in South Africa that you would have to notify 18 the NRC that you were going to buy tritium if you did?
19 A Did I know that I would need to in the future? ,
l 20 0 Right.
21 A No. Again, I had thought that tritium is 22 tritium, but to get the license amendment, it's pretty 23 obvious that ! did have to notify the NRC. At the point in 24 time whenever I was over there, the whole intention was to 25 find out if we could, in fact, buy tritium from them, if 4
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118 1 they would -- if it would be the same type of tritium, to l l 2 get a secondary source because of the SRB problems, j 3 Q Well, you said several times during this 4 interview that to you, tritium was tritium, and I'm a 5 little puzzled as to what, in general, the purpose of the j 6 NRC license was to you, i 7 MR. JACOBI: Do you understand what that question 8 is asking? l 9 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
10 MR. BOAL: All right.
I 11 MR. JACOBI: I'm not trying to short-circuit his 12 answer. I know what I would answer to it, but I don't ,
1 l
13 think we want to have a philosophical discussions about 14 what the NRC should be in certain businesses or why, and I i
15 think that's what he might have understood it to mean. ;
i 16 BY MR. BOAL:
17 O What is the purpose of the NRC license?
18 A The NRC deals with radioactive substances. l l
19 Tritium is a radioactive substance. That license allows 20 IWI to work with a radioactive substance called tritium for l
21 use in night sights.
22 O But is it your understanding then that the terms 23 and the conditions of that license have to be followed?
24 A As I had said several times, the terms and 25 conditions and understanding of that license is -- I have NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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- 1 never totally understood that license. That license has 2 been ambiguous. I believe I've stated that several times j I
3 and it is still ambiguous to me. j j l 4 Q We've been talking a long time here and I guess 5 I'm having a hard time understanding your answer, but you 6 said that you understand that the NRC license is to use the 7 tritium, right?
8 A To distribute the tritium.
9 Q Right.
10 A I have learned that in the last -- I have learned ,
i
~
11 several things in the last eight or nine months. I know I 1
12 now that that license allows us to distribute, and I also I 13 know now that the environmental license allows me to house.
14 At what point did I learn that? It's been within the last
- 15 eight or nine months as this process has made me more 16 knowledgeable about the license in general.
17 MR. JACOBI: That must help you a little.
18 MR. BOAL: No, it doesn't. It's still not -- but 19 maybe that's the response to my answer -- to my question.
20 Let me try and phrase it as I think, which is in very 21 si:'ple terms.
22 BY MR. BOAL:
23 O The NRC didn't give this license to just anybody.
24 They gave it to IWI to use or distribute tritium by certain 25 conditions, and in order to do that, you have to follow the l l
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o e i 120 1 conditions of the license.
- 2 But you're telling me, essentially you've told 3 Ms. Van Cleave, that you can't remember when you read it 4 and when you did read it, it was ambiguous, but you 5 continued to do business.
- 6 It sounds to me like apples and oranges, either 7 one or the other. I don't see how they merge together.
8 A I'm not sure what you're asking on that.
9 O Okay. Well, let me try and get it.
10 A We are allowed to go into existing sights; 11 therefore, we do. I want to become competitive with the 12 other folks who do this and manufacture the sights and have 13 the same latitudes that the competition does, rather than 14 go into existing sights.
15 The mounted, non-mounted, removable, non-16 removable that -- I am a gunsmith and sights can be moved ,
1 17 ard removed. I am unclear as to that in there. Sights are 18 mounted and they can be unmounted, much like you can remove 19 or install. That is ambiguous to me.
20 When you go into existing sights, do you remove 21 them from the slide when they're in-house here? Yes, you 22 can do that, and then you put them back on, which I guess 23 means mount them. The ambiguities throughout that whole 24 thing have got me very confused.
25 Q But the problem is that this is from the NRC's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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121 1 perspective, is that if there was a problem with this, why 2 did you continue with your manufacturing and your !
3 distribution of these sights rather than get it straight?
4 A We are allowed to go into existing sights. What 5 we have attempted to do, again, is to get this amendment so 6 we can manufacture our own. The Smith & Wesson sights, you 7 know, original equipment manufacturer, yes, that's what it 8 says there.
9 To me, original equipment manufacturer, it can be !
10 taken as one of two things. It can be a sight that was 11 machined by Smith & Wesson at Smith & Wesson or original 12 equipment, a Smith & Wesson-type sight. Now, t.' a t was 13 ambiguous to me.
14 A Glock sight is a Glock sight, 2 Sig 3ight is a 15 Sig sight. Now, if Sig makes the sight, it's a sig sight.
16 If someone else makes the sight for the Sig, is it still a 17 Sig sight?
16 O Good question. Certainly the NRC would be --
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, the license here says 20 manufactured by the licensee. I think you and I went 21 through this already.
22 MR. JACOBI: Maybe I can understand something 23 just from a gun standpoint. If I walk into a gun store and 24 I buy a Glock, that Glock has got sights on it, yes?
25 THE WITNESS: You bet.
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l l 122 1
1 MR. JACOBI: Do I know who made those sights?
l 2 THE WITNESS: No.
\
3 MR. JACOBI: Is it possible I'm buying -- the l 4 store sells nothing but Glocks. It's a Glock-owned store.
5 Is it possible or not -- is it possible that in a Glock-6 owned store, I am buying a Glock with a sight made by MMC 7 screwed onto or soldered onto or whatever you do to a sight 8 onto a Glock?
9 THE WITNESS: That's correct. Manufacturers also 10 have a knack of having other people make their sights for 11 them. I shouldn't say sights. Make other components of 12 the gun for them.
13 MR. JACOBI: Like everything else in America. !
I l 14 THE WITNESS: Very much like everything else in 15 the American way. There's very few -- there's no one that i 16 makes 100 percent all parts and things for the pistol.
1 17 MR. JACOBI: I'm sorry to interrupt. I really l 18 don't understand the difference. With all the licenses, 19 I'm not sure anybody would know.
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, this is the licensee, so 21 hopefully, the licensee would know whether they 22 manufactured it, I hope.
l l
23 MR. JACOBI: Well, how would the licensee know if I
24 he got a Glock gun whether the sight -- and the sight's on 25 there already -- whether the sight was manufactured by NEAL R, GROSS & CO., INC.
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123 1 Glock or by somebody else?
l 2 MS. VAN CLEAVE: But see, he can do that. I 3 mean, the IWI license says --
l 4 MR. JACOBI: That's going into it, you mean?
I 5 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Yes. It's going -- right here 6 on the front section, it says mounted sources onto the 7 weapons, where you've got the weapon and that's irrelevant.
8 Now we're talking about removable sights. You know, they 9 sell little sight sets.
10 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: And they spec:sfically say here 12 manufactured by the licensee --
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Now, just a minute.
15 Manufactured by the licensee is IWI and i t mentions six 16 different models here for Sigs, for Gloc.<s, and for Colts, 17 and then another section mentions --
18 MR. JACOBI: (c).
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Right. -- original equipment 20 manufacturer, which is Smith & Wesson. Those are kind of 21 separate. Those are removable and the ones that are being l 22 mounted onto the weapons or that are being put into, as Mr.
23 Gregor has called them, existing sights, that's under 24 category (a) here. That's fine.
25 MR. JACOBI: Got you.
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o 124 1 MS. VAN CLEAVE: They don't need to know who 2 manufactured those sights. I'm sorry, Dennis.
3 MR. BOAL: That's fine. Clarification is always i 4 appreciated.
5 MR. JACOBI: It was clarification for me, not for 6 anybody else in this room. l 1
7 MR. BOAL: I could use it, too.
8 BY MR. BOAL:
9 Q Earlier, Ms. Van Cleave asked you about the l l
10 African tritium you said that you had tested and evaluated I 11 it. You said there were approximately nine sights that you 12 shot; is that about richt?
1 13 A Pretty much so.
14 Q Give or take. I'm not going to hold you to the .
1 15 axe, but you did do so?
l 16 A Right. 1 17 Q Do you know what happened to those sights?
.18 A I would imagine that they're somewhere in this 19 building. Could I put my hand on them right now? No.
20 Q And just to try and understand a little bit 21 better for myself, I know this question has been gone over 22 several times, but if -- you said this license was I 23 ambiguous and that to your knowledge, you do not know 24 anybody that would have taken something, a sight, and i
25 brought it to this license and looked to see whether or not NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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125 1 it was specifically approved; is that correct?
2 A someone would have come here?
3 Q Right, you, you or somebod, in IWI would have 4 specifically looked to see --
5 MR. JACOBI: It's a paraphrase of Ms. Van 6 Cleave's question, but it's an interesting paraphrase.
1 7 Would anybody have pulled out the license at some I
point, anybody who worked for IWI, and taken a sight or 8
I 9 whatever, however these things show up --
10 MR. BOAL: Right.
11 MR. JACOBI: -- and decided whether IWI, pursuant 12 to that license, had the right, per that license, to 13 whatever you do with tritium to get it into a sight?
14 MR. BOAL: Right.
15 THE WITNESS: I guess I'm as confusing to you as 16 you are to me. We can go into existing sights. I'm not 17 sure about the sight in this hand, and that's what we do.
18 MR. JACCGI: Why would that be an issue after 19 what Ms. Van Cleave explained to me in terms of the sight, 20 unless it's somebody else's sight?
21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, it's an issue, let's say, 22 MMC, Millett.
23 MR. JACOBI- Okay. MMC sells over a thousand 24 sights.
25 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Something like that, or there's NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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O 126 1 a second -- okay, let's stick with that for now --
2 something like that where they've manufactured the sights 3 and these -- see, right here. Manufactured by the 4 licensee. We know they were not manufactured by the 5 licensee. Mr. Gregor's testified to that.
6 MR. JACOBI: Yes.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: And they're not Smith & Wesson 8 manufactured by the original equipment manufacturer, 9 they're not necessarily for Smith & Wesson, and MMC is not 10 the original equipment manufacturer for Smith & Wesson, as 11 far as we know.
12 MR. JACOBI: But how does he know whether that 13 sight came off an already existing gun witn a sight on it, 14 which would give him the right to go into it?
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, he's already said that MMC 16 manufactures their own and Millett manufactures their own 1
and Wilson manufactures their own.
1 17 !
18 MR. JACOBI: Yeah, but if MMC manufactures a i
19 sight and sells it to Glock directly and Glock puts it on, 20 they put a thousand sights, a thousand MMC sights onto a 21 thousand Glocks, and then Glock says, "You know, we would 22 like MMC to now take these sights from these thousand guns 23 that we have sold, a thousand guns come back into Glock and 24 Glock takes the thousand sights off, sends them back to 25 MMC, which puts them in a big bag and sends them over to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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127 1 IWI for shooting or whatever you call putting in the 2 tritium, what category is that under?
3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, it depends on who they 4 were manufactured by. They're loose sights and you have to 5 --
6 MR. JACOBI: But they were on at one point.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Nonetheless, there's a i 8 differentiation in this NRC license between what is on the 9 weapon and what is a loose sight. I mean, there just is.
10 That's the way this license is written.
11 MR. JACOBI: But if it's on a weapon and taken 1
12 off to make it loose, is there still a differentiation?
13 MS. VAN CLEAVE: This license differentiates l 14 between --
15 MR. JACOBI- Okay.
16 MS, VAN CLEAVE: -- what is loose and what is --
e ,
17 MR. JACOBI: I got you.
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: -- on a weapon.
19 MR. JACOBI: No matter whether it had been on the 20 weapon before? If it's loose, it's loose.
21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: You would have no way of knowing 22 that. So loose is loose as far as --
23 MR. JACOBI: I guess that's what I'm asking. I 24 have no way of knowing it.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: So loose is loose and you have NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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128 1 different criteria here on the license for removable or 2 what's nct -,unted or,the weapon and what is.
3 MR. JACOBI: His answer is, nobody ever picked up 4 these sights and compared them to the license. That's what 5 he has said. Yes?
6 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Is that what you said?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 MR. BOAL: I don't think I have any more 9 questions.
10 MR. JACOBI: Ask your three questions.
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I'm going to ask one more 12 question.
13 MR. JACOBI: I thought you were up to your three 14 questions.
I 15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Not yet. I'm going to do this !
l 16 one more time. l 17 MR. JACOBI: I'm sure you'll get the same 'nnwer.
18 MS, VAN CLEAVE: I know, but I just have to.
19 MR. JACOBI: By the way, the answers are being 20 given to you in the absolute spirit of intending to 21 cooperate. It's his understanding and he is repeating it 22 ad nauseam simply because it is his understanding. !
23 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
24 0 What did you consider to be -- what specifically
- 25 did you consider to be ambiguous about this license?
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129 1 A Permanently fixed -- I mean, starting from the 2 first page, permanently fixed, the mounting. Permanently 3 fixed. Whenever I, as a gunsmith -- you want me to put a 1
4 sight on your gun. You want that sight to stay on your gun !
5 permanently. You don't want to go out and shoot a round 6 out of your gun and have the sight come flying off the gun.
7 Q That's reasonable.
l 8 A It also would show up the inadequacies of me as a j 9 gunsmith. I would like to think that whenever I put a 10 sight on your gun, it would be permanent so it would not 11 fly off for you. Permanently mounted could be viewed that 12 way. It is -- I want it to be permanent because I was Ms.
13 Van Cleave's sight to stay on the gun.
14 O Right. But permanently mounted means permanently 15 mounted by IWI or coming in already permanently mounted.
16 So how does that address these loose sights? I 17 mean, how do you view that as ambiguous regarding the loose 18 sights? You're not going to be the one putting those on.
19 A The loose sights?
20 Q The loose sights like MMC sends you their sights I 21 and you put the tritium in it and you send them back.
l 22 You're not going to be putting those on the weapons, so how '
23 does that apply?
24 A Again, I assume because of everything done prior 25 to, I had heard that they had done Wilson's and Millett's.
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130 1 Q No, no, no, no. You said you thought that was 2 ambiguous and I guess I'm trying to figure out how that is 3 ambiguous because that wouldn't apply to all these sights 4 that are coming in from Millett or from MMC or from some 5 source such as one of those companies. That doesn't apply 6 to them.
7 I mean, permanently fixed is fixed. I mean, it's 8 on a weapon, it comes in on a weapon I guess I don't 9 understand what's ambiguous about that.
10 A Permanently fixed could also mean a front sight 11 like a Beretta-that is not drift-adjustable.
12 O I understand the Beretta's has to stay on it. Is 13 that correct? It has to stay on a Beretta, the slides come 14 in?-
15 A Well, .l e t me clarify here. Sights are held on by 16 dovetails, dovetail joints, meaning you can drive the sight 17 on and off.
18 0 Well, I had understood from someone that a 19 Beretta sight couldn't be removed. I mean --
20 A A Beretta sight is integral with the slide.
21 O Right. That's what I had understood.
22 A But that's another way -- I'm trying to answer 23 the question. That's another way that you can view the 24 term " permanent," is that permanent, I want the sights to 25 permanently stay on the gun or'is it permanent in that the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC (202) 234-4433
1 131 1 sight is permanently part of the frame and you can't drive l
2 it off? That's ambiguous to me. .
3 Q To me, permanently mounted on weapons, if it 4 comes in here on the weapon, it's mounted, isn't it?
5 A I would hope.
6 O And if it comes in loose in a little box, it's 7 not mounted, is it? ,
I 8 A Okay.
9 O So where's the ambiguity?
10 A Permanent --
again, I'm going to use the same 11 conclusion. A Beretta front is part of the slide.
12 O And it would come in here, I would guess, with 13 the slide or witn the whole weapon; is that correct?
14 A With the slide.
15 0 With the slide, okay.
1 16 A That is permanent because it's part of the slide. l l
17 o Right, and that's fine. IWI puts their little 18 inserts in there and that's fine. I understand that. l 39 A Now, to put sights on the gur, I want them to 20 remain on the gun permanently. I don't want them coming 21 off. I don't want them coming off.
22 O Okay.
23 A We mount the sights to be permanent. I 24 Q But you're not mounting the sights from MMC or 25 from Millett or some of these little rifle sights. You're NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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e 132 1 selling them 3cose. You personally or IWI are not mounting I 2 them. Is that not correct? !
3 A Based on what I had said in the prior management, 1
4 they did it with other people.. I assumed, and that's not i i
1 5 correct, but I assumed that that is all right to do because 6 it's a front sight of a certain configuration with a ,
i 7 certain dimension.
8 O But that's not mounted, is it? If it comes in 9 here loose and --
10 A It comes in here loose --
11 0 --
and leaves here loose.
i 12 A Yes, that's correct.
- 13 O So that is not mounted by IWI; is that true?
l 14 A Right.
15 0 All right. So since category (a) says mounted 16 onto a weapon, do you see category (a) as applying to those 17 particular sights?
l l 18 A I know you're going to hate to hear it, but-it's 19 the same answer. I truly am sorry --
! 20 MR. JACOBI: Don't be sorry.
l 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I ' m no'. sorry . That's the l
22 answer that I have to give.
23 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
l l 24 Q What's your answer again? Did you view those as 25 applying to category (a)?
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- i 133 1 A I viewed those as the way IWI did business with 2 regaru to those type sights.
i
)
3 Q Did you view them as falling into category (a)? I 4 A I viewed those as the way IWI did business in the ;
5 past.
6 O Did you ever think about it?
7 A We've done a lot of thinking here lately.
8 0 Well, prior to lately, did you ever think about 9 it?
10 A I don't know if I did or not. I can't recall 11 anymore. This whole process has been -- I have been 12 heavily involved in the amendment process and that's where 13 I've been generating all my time, into making the 14 amendment.
15 0 I still don't really understand what you've said 16 about what is ambiguous about that particular category, but 17 I know you're going to tell me the same thing again, so 18 let's move on.
19 Is there anything else ambiguous in that license?
20 A Sold separately or attached to weapon. Sold l 21 separately and attached to weapons are two different areas.
22 O Right, and that's why it says or . "
23 A Okay. But again, I guess I write different than 24 some people. I would have a tendency to write it, "You are 25 allowed to do this, this, this, this and this, and you NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 can't do this, this, this and this," and there's things 2 that may or may not be read into this that are artbiguous to 1 l
3 me.
4 0 And I'm asking you what those are. I mean, yes, ;
5 maybe you would write it differently, maybe the NRC would 6 arite it differently in hindsight, I don't know, but my 7 question is, what is ambiguous to you in that license as it 8 is written?
9 A "The following applies to removable sights 10 manufactured by the original equipment manufacturer." That 11 could lead someone to believe that number one, it was 12 manufactured by Smith & Wesson at Smith & Wesson, or it 13 could lead one to believe that this type of sight l 14 manufactured for the Smith & Wesson pistol as original 15 equipment.
16 That's the way I read that. That-s ambiguous to l 17 me because what you may find out is they don't manufacture 18 themselves. Someone else does it for them. Someone else 19 meaning somebody in Georgia, MMC. These sight companies 20 actually manufacture sights for the OEM people. That's 21 ambiguous to me.
22 O What is the definition of original equipment 23 manufacturer to you?
24 A Original equipment manufacturer would be the l
I l 25 entity responsible for producing whatever product is being
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135 1 produced. But what we find out is several subcontractors 2 produce the product that goes to the factory and the !
3 factory doesn't produce it 100 percent.
4 Is it original equipment because the factory J
5 didn't do it, someant 1se it was subcontracted to? I !
i 6 don't know. But when it came out, this is what it looked 7 like. Did you produce it or did you produce it or did you 8 produce it? I don't know. It was produced to a 9 . specification for the manuf acturer.
10 MR. JACOBI: Not to get intr this technically as 11 an argument, but I promise you that with the exception of ,
l 1
12 this license and your interpretation o'. it, if you go to '
13 lithe Orient, if you go to Hong Kong and then to PRC, j l
14 People's Republic of China, you will find multi-billion l
15 dollar companies that say that they are original equipment i
16 manufacturers, and what they do is they put somebody else's l l
17 label on something. I 18 Everything you buy from Japan is not manufactured 19 in Japan. I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous statement. All I 20 of the -- a great percentage of the hi-fi equipment that 21 you buy, the stereo equipment that you buy in the names of 1 22 Sanyo and Sansui and all the rest of those names is 23 manufactured in PRC by companies. some of the:a public in 24 this country, two of which I represent, which say that they 25 are OEM manufacturers, and I promise you I do not represent NEAL .'. GROSS & CO., INC.
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g e 136 1 Sanyo or Sansui. I wish I did. I 2 So without getting into an argument about what 3 original equipment manufacturing means, NRC may be 4 absolutely wrong, as opposed to che rest of the world, and 5 Mr. Gregor may be absolutely right.
6 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I just asked him his 7 understanding --
8 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
I 9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: -- of OEM.
J 10 MR. JACOBI: I'm pointing out something with it.
11 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 12 Q And are there any other ambiguities as you see 13 them, to your way of thinking, that are on this license?
14 A The model numbers are confusing because you have 15 to, you know, know what the model number refers to and have 16 a print of that.
17 Q Does IWI not have those model numbers and the 18 prints of those?
19 A Yes, but what I'm saying is that if we could 20 write it in such a way that it were manufactured for this 21 pistol rather than refer to all these letters and symbols 22 and numbers, that to me would be less confusing.
23 0 7 understand we're trying -- you're trying to 24 amend the license, but again, I want to stick with the 25 license as it reads right now.
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137 1 You do have those drasings or those model numbers 2 and the drawings for those model numbers, do you not?
3 A I would hope we do.
4 Q I would hope so, too. All right. .
1 1
5 So what is ambiguous about it, since you do have l
6 those drawings?
7 A The statements -- the items that I had mentioned 8 previous to you. Permanently mounted. i 9 O Right, I understand, but other thsn that. Other 10 than what we've already been through --
I 11 A That about covers it.
l 12 0 -- where it just lists these models anu that kind 13 af thing.
14 Is there anything really ambiguous about these 15 models, because you say you do have the drawings and you 16 would hope that you have the drawings on those.
17 A 't makes reference to all these communications 18 that have happened prior to 1995, and it lists all these 19 dates from '87, '88, '88, '88, 90, '91, '91, '91, the whole 20 way through. I have no way of knowing how this foundation 21 has been built.
22 I have no way of knowing anything about those 23 communicatiens.
24 Q Have you asked the NRC to provide copies of those 25 communications?
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138 t
1 A Have I personally? No.
2 O Has anyone at IWI asked the NRC to provide copies '
3 of those communications?
i
( 4 A To my knowledge, no.
l 5 O So perhaps you do or did have a way to look at 1
6 these communications. i 7 A In retrospect, I probably should have asked for 8 all the documentation based on those --
9 MR. JACOBI: The answer is it's possible.
10 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
1 11 Q Is there anything else in the license that you l I
12 view as .anfusing and ambiguous?
l 13 A I don't believe so.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I don't have anything else.
15 Dennis, do you ". ave any other questions?
16 MR. BOAL: No.
17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Has he been warned about these 18 three questions?
19 MR. JACOBI: No, absolutely not.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 Q Mr. Gregor, I have three questions that we ask at 22 the conclusion of any transcribed interview.
23 Have I or Mr. Boal threatened you in any manner l
24 or offered you any rewards in return for the statement?
l
, 25 A Any rewards?
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o v.
139 1 Q Right.
2 MR. JACOBI: Answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: No, no.
4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: )
i l
5 Q Have you given the statement freely and j i
6 voluntarily?
7 A Yes, I have.
8 Q Is there anything further that you would like to 9 add for the record?
10 A No.
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I appreciate your time in 12 talking to us and we'll go off the record now. l 1
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