ML20129C704
| ML20129C704 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/19/1995 |
| From: | Boal D, Van Cleave V NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20129C121 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-96-246 NUDOCS 9610240101 | |
| Download: ML20129C704 (107) | |
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i EXHIBIT 52 -
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f In.ormatbn in this record was deleted in accordance with the freedom of Information Act, exempiions 2d F01A- T62y4 EXHIBIT 52 9610240101 961016 PDR FOIA TOURTEL96-246 P DR - - - .-.
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! 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA l
! 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l
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4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS l 5 INTERVIEW
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6 ---------------------------------x 7 IN THE MATTER OF: l
, 8 INNOVATIVE WEAPONRY, INC. -
l 9 INTERVIEW OF : Docket No. N/A 10 PATRICIA G. WILSON :
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12 ---------------------------------x 13 Thursday, October 19, 1995 l l
14 15 Innovative Weaponry, Inc. l l
l 16 337 Eubank, Northeast 17 Albuquerque, New Mexicc l 18 l 19 l
20 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 21 11:00 a.m.
22 BEFORE:
23 VIRGINIA J. VAN CLEAVE, Investigator l
24 DENNIS BOAL, Investigator NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
(202) 234-4433 INC. EXHIBIT bb PAGE / OF /ObPAGE(S)
CASf NO.
4-95-022* -
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O D i 2 l l 1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Witness and the Licensee,
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1 l 3 Innovative Weaponry, Inc. l I
4 HERBERT M. JACOBI, ESQ. I i
1 5 8 West 38th Street, 9th Floor )
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NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 EEQCEEDIEQS -
2 MS. VAN CLEAVE: On the record. For the record, 3 this is an interview of Patricia G. Wilson, ,__
4{ ; date of birth, 5 who is employed by Innovative Weaponry, 6 Incorporated, IWI.
7 The date is October the 19th, 1995 and the time 8 is approximately 11:00 a.m. Present at this interview are l
9 myself, Virginia Van Cleave, NRC Senior Investigator; 10 Dennis Boal, NRC Investigator; Herbert M. Jacobi, attorney 11 representing Ms. Wilson; and Ms. Wilson.
21 This interview is being tape recorded by court 13 reporter Carrie Gansle. Ms. Wilson, if you would please 14 stand and raise your right hand?
15 WHEREUPON,
~ 'i 5~ PATRICIA G. WILSON 17 having been called as a witness in the above-entitled 18 proceedings, was sworn and testified as follows:
19 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
20 Q Ms. Wilson, what is your position with IWI?
21 A I am the executive vice president of IWI Nevada 22 and of IWI New Mexico.
23 Q How long have you held those positions, 24 approximately?
25 MR. JACOBI: Could we determine whether IWI NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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! 1 Nevada is the same company now known as.21st Century --
2 21st something or other?
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l 3 THE WITNESS: Right, it is. IWI Nevada's name 4 has been changed to 21st Century Technologies, Inc.
l 5 MS. VAN CLEAVE: All right. )
l 6 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: l l I l 7 Q And you're the executive vice president-of that l
l 8 corporation -- )
- 9 A Yes. l l l
! 10 Q -- also? I l j 11 A Yes, I am.
I 12 O And how long have you held those positions?
i 13 A I have, approximatel , been with them since 14 August of '94.
i 15 O And did you come into IWI as the executive vice 16 president?
17 A No. I believe the way it happened was I was i
J 18 working -- I was brought -- my husband was brought in to l I
! '4 help financial -- j l
i 20 MR. JACOBI: Your husband is who?
21 THE WITNESS: Kenneth Wilson was brought in to 22 help with the financial problems of IWI New Mexico. When 23 he was brought in to do that, they needed help in the front 24 office and so they asked -- I work with him on projects, !
- 25 and so they asked if I could help answer the phone and take 1
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5 1 care of various odds and ends with IWI New Mexico.
l 2 MR. JACOBI: The answer to the question is no, 3 she didn't originally come into the company as an executive 4 VP. J 5 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
7 o when did you become the executive vice president, 8 approximately?
9 A Approximately October of '95.
10 Q '94? )
i 11 A I mean '94. Sorry i l
12 Q What is your background? Did you have a )
13 background in weapons?
14 A No, I did not.
15 0 were you familiar with weapons?
16 A Yes, I am familiar -- I was familiar with l
17 weapons.
l 18 o who was your previous employer before you came to 19 work for IWI?
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20 A A law firm in Dallas by the name of Sullivan &
1 21 Ave.
22 o What was your position with them?
23 A I was a paralegal.
24 Q How long did you work for them?
25 A Approximately ten years, off and on.
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1 Q And you said you helped your husband? I believe ;
1 2 you said you helped your husband on some work? ,
1 J
3 A Yes, I did.
I 4 Q In what capacity?
l 5 A He did financial ventures and I worked with him !
l 6 in that area.
7 Q And what is your curre..c position with IWI?
8 A I'm executive --
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9 0 You're still executive vice president?
10 A Yes, I am.
l 11 O What is your involvement with the day-to-day 12 operations?
l 13 A Well, I take care --
l 14 MR. JACOBI: Wait, wait. Perhaps it would be 15 easier if we understood what day-to-aay operations you're 16 asking about.
17 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Excuse me.
l 18 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q As executive vice president, what are your 20 functions?
21 A I report to the board for any public company 22 resolutions or anything of that nature that the company has 23 to have done. I basically just record those type of 24 instruments for the public company. That's what I do for a
25 the Nevada public company.
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7 j 1 And do you want me to explain what I do for the 2 other company, too, as well?
- 3 Q Yes.
I 4 A For IWI New Mexico, I sit in a position where the :
1
- 5 supervisors come to me. I am their direct boss.
2 6 O When you say supervisors, what do you mean?
7 A I mean the -- we have levels of supervisors in l
{ 8 the manufacturing department and those supervisors report i
9 to me.
10 0 What about in the shipping department? i 11 A Yes. The shipping department is made up of one 12 person and he -- if there are any types of probtems, he 13 does report to me.
14 Q Who is he? ,
i 25 A His name is Michael Mangum.
16 Q What about purchasing?
17 A Okay. We have different types of purchasing, so 18 which type?
l 19 Q What type do you have?
20 A Okay. We have supplies, inner-office supplies 21 type of purchasing, and then we also have the supplies for 22 manufacturing purchasing, which they are separate. 4 l
t 23 Q What about the supplies for the manufacturingo 9 l
24 Who is responsible for that?
25 A I am.
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l 1 Q And is there a supe- isor under you that is in I l
i 2 that department?
3 A This is confusing. Do I explain how this works?
4 MR. JACOBI: Yes. l 5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
l 6 MR. JACOBI: Do you understand what the question 7 is?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1
. 9 MR. JACOBI: Answer it. Try and give an l f
10 understanding. l 1
1 11 THE WITNESS: Right, okay. How this works is, we b
- 12 are on an inventory-based system. Inventory is separated l
13 out by pieces. When an inventory goes low, I'm contacted j 14 and they tell me what we need. So there are different 15 supervisors who monitor each different type of inventory 16 and they report to me.
2 17 EY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4
! 18 Q When you say different type, are these the two
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19 categories that you had mentioned earlier?
$ 20 A No.
j 21 Q There are even more than this?
4 22 A Yes.
i 23 Q Within the manufacturing purchasing, how is that 1
24 divided?
25 A It's divided by raw steel and by tritium and by NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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9 1 all the supplies that are required for the tritium 2 encapsulations. So you actually have three different 3 divisions of supplies -- actually -- excuse me. There's 4 actually more than three divisions because we also have a 5 division for the machinists, also, which is totally 6 separate. But that has nothing to do with the tritium.
7 Q And who purchases the tritium or who is 8 responsible for purchasing the tritium?
9 A Okay. I need to - as far as who orders the 10 tritium and who sends out the order for tritium, Dave 11 Gregor actually signs and sends that order out. I'm the
.2 one that sets -- my supervisor from the tritium room comes 11 to me and tells me what she needs, and then I tell Dave. I 14 write it up and then he actually sends the order out.
15 Q When you say the supervisor from the tritium 16 room, do you mean the room back there where they're putting 17 tritium inserts into the sights?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 0 Does she have any involvement in ordering the 20 tritium other than what you've just said, that when she 21 runs low, she comes and tells you what she's low on? Does 22 she have any input as to who IWI buys tritium from?
23 A No, she does not.
24 O She comes to you, if I can rephrase. She comes l
25 to you and says we're running low on some particular ,
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- O 10 1 tritium --
2 MR. JACOBI- Ie there more than one kind of 3 tritium? I thought tritium was tritium.
4 THE WITNESS: It's different colors.
5 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Go ahead.
6- MR. JACOBI: Is that what it is, the color of l 7 tritium? So when you're asking --
8 THE WITNESS: Sizes, also.
9 MR. JACOBI: Sizes? i
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10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR. JACOBI: Okay. It's like wood is wood except 12 there are types of wood. I'm not trying to be funny. I 13 don't understand and I'm trying to learn.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 MR. JACOBI.: You understood Ms. Van Cleave's 16 question about different types of tritium?
17 T::E WITNESS: Yes, I did.
18 MR. JACOBI: As long as you did, fine.
19 THE WITNESS: As long as that's what she's 20 talking about, is the different sizns and the different 21 colors.
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: Because that's the only difference 24 that there is between tritium.
25 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
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11 1 THE WITNESS: I assumed. I'm sorry. I guess I 2 shouldn't have, but yes, that's the only differences that 3 there are in tritium.
l 4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
- 5 .Q As far as what we're dealing with here on the i
. 6 inserts, that would be the only difference, right? l l
J 7 A Right.
8 MR. JACOBI: I appreciate it.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: All right.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
i il MR. JACOBI: Don't be sorry. We want a nice, )
4 12 clean record in spite of me, ,
13 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: ,
i 14 0 What is her name, the supervisor's? '
15 A Audre Perea.
-16 Q So Ms. Perea comes to you, she says she's running 17 low of some type of tritium. I think I lost you.
18 What do you do then?
19 A She comes to me, she tells me, for example, she 20 tells me that bars -- no --
21 MR. JACOBI: No, it's my knee.
22 THE WITNESS: -- that bars are low.
23 MR. JACOBI: She said no because she saw me 24 wince. It's got nothing to do with her.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
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12 1 THE WITNESS: We have a low inventory policy.
2 Because we call it low doesn't mean that it's low. We just l
have breaks that we like to be notified of where we stand 3
i 4 in our inventory here are reasons for that. The I 1
l 5 inventory system, 11 come to me and she will say, "I 6 only have so many pieces of bars," and that's it and that's 7 as far as it goes as far as she's concerned. I 8 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
9 Q What do you do with that information?
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10 A I write it down and I decide what we do from l l
11 there. I usually come and talk to Dave about it.
l 12 O Who makes the final decision to order tritium?
13 A Dave and I together.
14 Q Who fills out the paperwork and sends it off?
! '5 A I give Dave the numbers, Dave signs the letter, i
l 16 and then an inner-office person sends it out.
l 17 Q Who makes the decision who IWI will purchase 18 tritium from?
19 A That's complicated. There really isn't a -- who 20 we buy it from' 21 Q Yes.
f 22 A Whoever we're buying from at that time, that's 23 who we buy from.
24 MR. JACOBI; Rephrasing the question, if you 25 always bought from the same person, that would be fine, but NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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13 1 obviously, you purchase from more than one person.
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 MR. JACOBI: Who decided from whom to buy or to 4 change?
5 THE WITNESS: If there's a -- I don't know if I C -- there was a current of events that caused what happened 7 and --
8 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Let's back.up then.
9 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
10 0 Do you know if any particular company is named on 11 your NRC license as the supplier for tritium?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q Who is that company? j 14 A Saunders-Roe -- I don't know their whole name --
15 of Canada. j i
16 Q Would that be SRB Technologies, Inc.?
17 A I believe so, yes.
18 Q Have you read the NRC license? 1 19 A Yes, I have.
20 Q Do you recall when you first read it?
21 A No, I do not.
22 C was it your understanding from the NRC license 23 that SRB Technologies or Saunders-Roe of Canada was the 24 source of tritium for IWI on the license, on the NRC 25 license?
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l-l 1 A Yes. I didn't really -- that's not my expertise, i i
2 so : really didn' t understand all of the license because !
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3 it's very complicated, and so that was not my expertise. !
l t 4 So I saw their name there, yes. I didn't understand what i i
1 5 those -- I believe they're in blocks, and that's as far as l 6 it went with me. i i
7 Q SRB Technologies,.according to the NRC license l
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l: .8 which I have here, is listed as the source of the tritium? l L. !
v 9 A Right. l 10 Q And I was here in June, if you recall, and at i i
11 that time,-you gave me'some invoices, copy of invoices of ,
t 12 tritium and they were from SRB Technologies. l
- i l 13 Do you recall that? j i
! 14 A Yes, I believe I do. j l
L 15 0 All right. At some point, as you just stated, 16 there was a sequence of events that led IWI into believing 17 that perhaps, if_I understand it correctly, they .aight need _
- 18. a different source of tritium.
19 Has IWI purchased tritium from anyone else l
20 besides SRB Technologies?
21 A Yes, we have.
-22 Q And what. caused IWI to purchase tritium from l.
23 another source besides SRB Technologies?. l l
24 .A Besides? Oh , okay. Because of this current of 25 events that started in January of '95~-- ,
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1 MR.-JACOBI: What do you mean by current of 2 events? ?cu mean a history?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
5 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
i 6 0 What happened in January of 1995?
7 A In January of 1995, we attended a SHOT show in 8 Las Vegas, Nevala. This was our first exposure to all ;
9 suppliers in the large arena of the industry that we were l
i 10 involved in.
11 Q Ol.ay . When you say "your," do you me=n IWI of 12 New Mexico with the current corporate officers or do you 12 mean Just IWI period, the night sights? 1 14 A I mean mine personally.
ld Q Okay.
16 A Okay. I attended, as several other people did, 17 attended this SHCT show in Las Vegas for IWI New Mexico.
18 During this SHOT show, a gentleman came up to our booth and 19 came to me first, I believe. Let me take that back. I 20 believe he came to me first. I was sitting at the table 21 and our booth was very busy. I did not know this 22 gentleman.
23 He walked up tc me, he said, "My name is Brian 24 pullen and I'm f rom SRB Te chnologies," We introduced 25 ourselves and he -- like I say, the booth was very busy.
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16 1 There were customers everywhere. He began to berate IWI.
2 I was in shock because I had never really talked 3 witP this gentleman, and so 1 was very surprised at his 4 animosity. !
5 O Did you know what or who SRB Technologies was? !
6 A Yes, I did. He proceeded to tell me that he had .
7 applied for a license with the NRC for his company to make i
8 gun sights, also, and that he was going to become a 9 competitor of ours.
10 Many things were said that I really can't <
11 remember at this time because they really weren't that 12 important to me, but he did say that he had the best of 13 both worlds because he would also be supplying the lights, ,
14 as they call them, to us and to whoever else he supplied 15 to, but that he would also be able to be in the sight 16 business.
17 And so, he wo'cid become a competitor of ours.
18 But not to worry at this point because he had control of 1 1
1 19 the lights so he would give us what he didn't need. )
20 0 And how did you feel about that conversation?
21 A I was very surprised. It was the first mention 22 of this and I didn't know how to take it. I believe what 23 happened next was Ken Wilson was in the booth, I believe 24 Dave Gregor was in the booth, but the only thing I know is 25 that he left at that point in time.
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1 Q Did you respond to Mr. Pullen at all?
2 A As I remember, I believe I just stood there with '
3 my mouth agape. I don't believe I did respond. ,
4 O All right. And what happened next after? You 5 said Mr. Pullen turned around and left?
6 A Yes. I think Ken -- I'm really not sure, but I 7 believe Ken Wilson was in the booth, but I believe he was i
8 talking with other people. And then I know that Mr. Pullen '
l 9 did return at a later time, i i
10 Now, I do not know if it wts that same day. It i
j 11 might have been the next day, because he day that I saw !
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12 him was the very first day of the show which was Friday.
l l 13 Sc I really don't know if he came back that day or the !
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r 24 next, but he did return. t l
i j 15 When he returned, Ken Wilson was in the booth and 16 they had a conversation. I was not privy to any of that at 17 that point in time. i 18 0 You didn't hear the conversation? )
19 A NO, I did not.
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20 Q Did Mr. Wilson discuss that conversation with you '
21 later?
l 22 A He briefly went over it with Dave Gregor and I. '
23 I believe it was at the hotel, either later that night or 24 the next day. I can't answer for anybody else, but I was 25 very concerned after hearing what I had heard that day, so, NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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18 1 of course, I was interested and I asked about it.
2 Because I was not privy to the conversation, it [
3 was secondhand what he did tell me, and I really don't 4 remember a whole lot of what he did tell me except that it ,
5 was basically what I had heard, was that he had the best of 6 both worlds and that he would give us whatever he had left 7 over, and it was basically the same conversation.
8 Q And SRB Technologies, we've already established, 9 is listed on the NRC license as the source for the tritium ;
10 inserts.
11 You were concerned then that your source of
- 12 tritium inserts might have a competitive edge? Would that l 1
13 be accurate? What was your concern?
14 A I was concerned because of the way -- okay. I l
15 was concerned because we had had previous problems with j 16 them that I was aware of. And so, I was concerned because 17 --
18 o what kind of problems?
19 A I was not privy -- I was not involved in those 20 problems, but I knew of them.
21 Q Okay. You said you were aware of them --
22 A Yes.
23 0 -- so what kind of problems were they?
24 A The problems -- Mr. Mowry, Barry Mowry --
25 Q The former president of IWI; is that correct?
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l 1 A Yes, he was, of IWI New Mexico.
2 O Cf New Mexico, .ight.
3 A He had evidently had many problems in the past, I l
j 4 understand, because that's why we were called in. They 5 were monetary problems. He and his wife went to Canada. I 6 don't know what month it was, it was in '94. Went to l
7 Canada and signed a contract with -- it was a contract of l
8 completion with SRB. I do not know if it was with Brian 9 Pullen or not, j 10 This contract set out the ordering of lights for, 11 I believe, an eight-month period or something like that.
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l 12 So I was aware of this. When they returned, I believe 13 there were many ccmments from the Mowrys that -- well, they 14 came back and they spoke with me -- that it was not a good 15 relationship. But I was not privy to that, so I don't know l
i j 16 what : .at really meant.
17 0 What type of contract was signed?
18 A It was a contract for them to provide us with j 19 lights for, like I say, so many -- I mean, it was detailed i
l 20 and it said how many of each type of sight would be ordered 21 each month for, I believe, a six or eight-month period.
22 O When you say " sight," you mean the tritium I
1 23 inserts?
24 A I mean the light.
25 O The light?
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' 20 1 A Yes.
2 O So this was six months?
3 A I'm really not sure. I'm really not sure.
4 Q Do you recall if this was in the fall? You said 5 you didn't know exactly when it was in 1994. Was it in the 6 fall?
7 A Yes, it was in the fall, l
8 O What was to happen at the end of six months? Was 9 there anything mentioned in the contract about that?
10 A I cannot remember. I do not remember, il O Was there any discussion that you can recall 12 about what would happen at the end of six months as far as 13 where IWI would get their tritium if that contract wasn't 14 renewed?
15 A What I was told by the Mowrys was that the 16 contract was only to provide a level of security for SRB; 17 that they would have their money up front before they 16 produced lights for us; and that it would be a set amount 29 of lights so that they could have -- that they could feel 20 secure with the order. That is the only reason why I was 21 told there was this type of contract.
22 O Okay. So getting back to your concerns after l 23 your conversation with Mr. Pullen, I interrupted you when 24 you said that you had had some other problems with SRB.
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21 1 asked previously what were your concerns as far as his 2 conversation with you? What were you afraid might happen?
3 A I was concerned. I guess you would have had to 4 have been there to'see the animosity and to see the 5 attitude that was thrown at me. First of all -- first of 6 all, that set the mood So that concerned me first and .
7 foremost. It wasn't so much what he said, it was how he ,
8 said it.
9 .: concerned me because when you have one sole i 10 source of tritium and that one sole source is telling you, l 1
11 "I'm going to, number one, become your competitor and 12 number two, I'm going to control your light source," that 13 concerned me. i l
14 O Was there any discussion between the IWI officers !
15 and yourself and then your husband, who's a consultant, Mr.
16 Gregor, about any steps IWI might want to take regarding 17 purchasing tritium?
18 A At that point, no. No, there was not. When this 19 happened, it was a three-day period that all of this hit 20 us. The first day when Mr. Pullen hit me with this, and 21 then hit Ken Wilson with it, we did discuss it that 22 evening. I cannot remember everything that we discussed.
23 We were pretty much taken aback, all of us, because.that 24 was our survival, the company's survival, we felt.
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i 1 time.
.2 O Did IWI take any steps to locate a uifferer.:
i 3 source of tritium? ;
4 A I did not take any steps to locate a different 5 source and I do not believe that anyone -- we did not go !
1 6 out and search for anyone. No one in our group went out to 1
7 search for a different source of tritium at that time.
8 O Then there was no recommendation by any of the 9 three of you that a different source might be necessary or :
10 that we should do this?
l 11 A At that point in time, none of us really knew l l
12 where to go. We were not in that business before and so 1 13 none of us -- when we walked in here, these people were !
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14 already here. So we didn't know where to go. i 15 C You've already stated that IWI has purchased i
16 tritium from another source. l l
17 How did IWI locate a different source? l 18 A The source located us.
i 19 Q What happened? How did they locate you?
20 A This was also at the SHOT show in Las Vegas. I ,
21 cannot remember what day of the show it was, and as I 22 recall, a representatite came to our booth. I was not 23 involved in any of the conversations during the SHOT show.
24 Q Who was?
25 A I believe they came and asked for Ken Wilson.
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23 1 Q When you say "they," who is they?
2 A There were two gentlemen. At the time, I did not 1
3 know who they were. They came and like I say, the booth j 4 was very busy. We were surrounded at all times by people.
1 5 It was a very busy show. So I was used to people just 6 walking up and asking all kinds of questions.
i 7 Two gentlemen walked up. I believe they 4
8 introduced themselves, I don't remember. At that point in 9 time, it didn't make any difference to me, you know. I i
10 mean, everybody was introducing themselves to me.
I 11 They came up, they asked for Ken, I be'ieve, by 1
12 name.
l 13 Q Did Mr. Wilson talk to them, do you know?
l 14 A Yes. We had a table in our booth and I believe I 15 remember looking around and they were all sitting at the j
16 table.
17 O Did Mr. Wilson discuss the conversations that he l
18 had with those two gentlemen with you?
1 19 A At a later date. I don't really remember. I 20 don't believe it was that night. He did mention who they 21 were and was quite -- kind of surprised that they had 22 contacted us, but a lot of people do, and said that he f
23 wanted to check them out and see what it was all about.
)
24 0 Who were they?
25 A The one gentleman was Mark Zimmerman, who is a NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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24 1 rep in Belgium for us, for IWI New Mexico; and the other 2 gentleman was Mark Ager, and he represents Ramrod i 3 Manufacturing from South Africa.
4 0 What is Ramrod Manufacturing?
5 A I really don't know. Ramrod, from what I 6 understand, they manufacture items in South Africa, but I 7 really don't know what they manufacture.
8 0 You said Mr. Zimmerman's representative in 9 Belgium.
10 What function does he serve as IWI's 11 representative?
12 A He had actually just come on board. He came to 13 the SHOT show. We had spoke with him before on the phone 14 and he came to the SHOT show. Because this was an 15 international show, he believed that ne could help us with 16 some of the arms manufacturers, the weapons manufacturers 17 that were out of the country that actually had companies in l
18 the country.
19 But a lot of times, in order to get to them, you 20 have to go through the owners who are mostly out of the 21 country, and he had -- he felt that he could help us in 22 that area. So that is -- he was at the show for himself.
23 He was not there for us particularly. He was -- I believe 24 he represents many lines.
So he came and he met us. That was the first I 25 NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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25 1 time I'd ever met Mr. Zimmerman.
I i
2 Q Mr. Ager?
3 A Ager, A-G-E-R.
j 4 Q Mr. Ager. Did you ever speak with him?
5 A Okay. At the show?
6 j 6 Q Just have you spoken with him.
7 A Oh, yes. Yes, I have.
4
> 8 0 when did you initially speak with him?
2
! 9 A I really don't remember the first time I talked 10 to him.
11 Q Well, has it been recent? Was it durina the
. 12 show? Was it right after? Was it last week? Can you give
- 13 me a general idea?
1
- 14 A I did not speak with him at the show. It was 15 quite some time after the show, quite a while after the 9
16 show, probably several months after the show.
17 Q Was a decision made at some point to pursue 18 purchasing tritium from another source?
19 A The information was brought back. We discussed 20 the information.
21 0 When you say the "information," what do you mean?
22 A The information that Mark Ager had given to Kan 23 Wilson was later discussed.
L 24 Q What information was that?
25 A That he had a tritium source in South Africa, and 9
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26 i i that this source -- that he knew SRB of Canada, that they 2 knew each other; that his source was a very good source; i
3 and that they were looking for an avenue for other people 4 to supply to; and that he had heard -- now, that he had 5 heard that we were in dire straits for tritium.
6 O Did he say where he had heard that?
l 7 A I never was told that. I don't know.
i 8 O Mr. Wilson, you said, shared this information 1
- 9 later after the show, is that correct, with you and Mr.
j 10 Gregor; is that correct?
11 A Yes, that's correct, i
) 12 Q And did someone make a decision to pursue that 13 avenue of possibly obtaining tritium from the South African 14 source?
15 A I really don't -- I do not remember how the 16 initial contact took place. I was not privy to that, not 17 at all.
1B Q Who was?
19 A Since there are only two other people involved, I 20 believe it was Dave Gregor that made the initial contact 21 after we came back, I believe, but it could have been Ken.
22 I'm really not sure.
23 Q Either Mr. Gregor or Mr. Wilson then contacted 24 someone.
25 Was it Mr. Ager who they contacted?
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- 1 A Yes,.I believe so.
2 O And what happened next regarding negotiations or 3 discussions with Ramrod, I believe you said?
l 4 A Well, this is all speculative because before it 5 came to me, there had been many conversations back and j 6 forth, but there might have been two or one. I really i
I 7 don't know.
4 i 8 O Conversations between whom?
i 9 A Dave Gregor, Mark Ager, and Ken Wilson. Like I 10 say, I was not privy to any of those conversations at the 11 time because I dealt with the day-to-day basis of the i 12 company. So at that point in time, we didn't even knew if 13 there was any way to get any other tritium. So I really 14 don't know.
i 15 O What steps were taken to pursue that possibility?
l
- 16 A I believe that at that point in time, we were 17 very heavily involved with trying to get our license 18 redone.
19 0 What license are you referring to?
20 A The NRC license. We were working with a lady by 21 the name of Susan Greene in the Washington NRC office.
i i j 22 There had been many communications back and forth trying to l 1 l 23 change our license.
1 24 I believe what happened -- like I say, I'm very A 1
- 25 cloudy on this -- is that Ken Wilson contacted Ms. Greene i NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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28 1 regarding how to make changes to the license.
2 O Are you specifically referring to changes for the 3 source of tritium or are you talking about changes on the 4 sales of night sights?
5 A That part of it I'm not sure. I believe it was 6 -- Ken always handled that part of it, because we were 7 having problems rewriting the license, and so every door we 8 knocked on kind of slammed. So we were trying to do it the 9 right way, but it seemed to be very hard to get an answer 10 as to what the right way was.
11 So we just kept plugging along and I know there 12 were many conversations. So as to the tritium, change in 13 the tritium source, I'm not sure.
14 Q Did you ever discuss changing the tritium source 15 with anyone from the NRC, Ms. Greene or anyone else?
16 A No, I did not.
17 O What steps were taken back, I guess this was 1 48 still in the January, February time frame, to pursue this 19 possibility? I guess that's what I had asked before and I 20 think we got off on the NRC license.
21 A Like I believe I said before, there were phone 22 calls back and forth between Mr. Gregor and, I believe, Ken 23 and Mark Ager. I do not know when this took place, but 24 there was a trip. Dave Gregor made a trip over to South 25 Africa to inspect -- at that point in time, I didn't even NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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- 1 know who the tritium source was -- to inspect their 2 grounds, I believe. l l
3 O Do you recall when that was, his trip?
4 A I'm terrible at dates. I really don't remember 5 names and dates. l l
6 O Maybe you recall the season, if it was in the 7 spring?
! 8 A I believe it was in the spring.
.i 9 MR. JACOBI: Do they have seasons in Albuquerque, l 1
J 10 New Mexico? I 11 THE WITNESS: No.
j 12 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Let's just pretend you just 13 follow the calendar.
I 14 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
J w.
15 4
0 He went to South Africa then. What was his 16 purpose in going to South Africa?
17 A To see what they had to offer, to see what they j i
18 were producing now, what they were doing, what their
{
s l 19 business was, to see generally if they would even fit into
, 20 what IWI's necessities or needs were. That was basically i !
21 it. !
, 22 O When Mr. Gregor returned to IWI, did he have any 4
23 discussions with you or other employees or Mr. Wilson, as a 24 consultant, about what he had learned in South Africa?
25 A He did speak with me about the meetings that he l
2 NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l 30 l l
1 did. I 1
2 Q What did he say? !
l 3 A First of all, most of the conversation was about I 4 his safari that he went on. Well, it really wasn't a )
5 safari, but that was most of the conversation about South 6 Africa. He went to many lakes and rivers and did many 7 things.
8 I believe one day he did inspect -- ne inspected 9 the facility of a company called Lumitech, and he went to
)
10 Lumitech.
11 Q What is their business?
12 A They, as I understand it, they are the -- they're 13 comparable to the NRC in the United States. They are the 14 environmental agency for South Africa. Now, that's what I 15 was told, and they actually produce tritium products 16 themselves.
17 Q Then is Ratarod a distributor? Would thcf act as 18 a distributor for Lumitech?
19 A I was told they were an agent.
20 Q An agent? All right, go ahead. You said that 21 Mr. Gregor inspected their facilities one day?
22 A He went to their facilities, he inspected their 23 facilities. Of course, he didn't really inspect them, He 24 just went and looked through them because he didn't really 25 understand a lot of it. He went through the facility, he NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 said that he talked at great length with a gentleman by the 2 name of George Behrens. I really don't know what his a
3 capacity at Lumitech is.
4 And that they had discussed what we needed as far 5 as lights were concerned, and that they would get back to 6 us.
7 Q They being Lumitech or they being Ramrod?
1
] 8 A Lumitech and Ramrod is what I understood, that (
9 Lumitech would go through Ramrod and that we would be -- j i 10 that they would get back to us on the information that Mr. l 11 Gregor had given to them.
- 12 O What information?
l 13 A I believe he gave them specs of what type of 14 lights, sizes, dimensions of what type of lights that we 15 dealt in.
16 O And did someone from Ramrod or Lumitech get back 17 to Mr. Gregor or anyone at IWI?
18 A Yes, they did.
19 Q What did they tell -- was it Mr. Gregor that they 20 got in touch with?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What did they tell him?
23 A There was a letter, I believe, sent, I believe.
24 I know there was a communication. I believe it was either !
25 a letter or a memo or a phone cali. I'm not sure which one NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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32 1 the first time, But they contacted him and said that they 2 were worL:ng on it, and I really don't remember the first i 3 transrission.
J 4 I remember that he said they were working on it 5 and that they would see what they could produce, but they 6 wanted to keep in contact. That's really all I remember l J
7 about when they first contacted us after he came back.
Was there a second contact from Lumitech or d
8 0 ,
r i
9 Ramrod? l 10 A Yes, I believe it was from Ramrod.
11 Q Do you recall what was said in that contact?
i
! 12 A No, I really don't. Most of all the l 4
13 transmissions that came into IWI from Ramrod always came to I
14 Dave. ,
g 15 Q You said you had spoken with someone from Ramrod, )
16 but you couldn't recall exactly when.
~
17 Did your involvement then come later?
! 18 A Actually, the involvement with Ramrod and I
- 19 Lumitech, I've never really been involved in any of the f 20 interactions with Ramrod and Lumitech. What I meant by 21 that statement was that Mark Ager had called and spoke to s
22 me and, you know, things like that, but we never -- I never a
23 really discussed anything with Mark at that time.
24 Q Who handled the negotiations or the discussions 25 regarding IWI possibly purchasing tritium from Ramrod?
t NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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4 i
, 1 A I believe it was mostly Dave and Ken might have l 2 been involved because of the financial aspects, but I was l
3 never involved in any of those negotiations.
4 O At some point, was a decision made to purchase 5 from Ramrod or Lumitech, purchase tritium from them?
6 A When they -- yes, there was.
a 7 0 When was that?
8 A I don't remember. I would have to -- like I say, 9 I'm not good with dates. I don't remember when it was, j 10 0 Do you remember who made the decision?
i '
11 A Actually I don't. I would think that i- would ,
t i
12 have had to have been Dave. <
13 0 Was there any kind of meeting of corporate i 14 officers about this issue?
15 A Actually, IWI New Mexico handled their problems 16 with the tritium themselves. We never really had a
! 17 corporate meeting as far as the public company went except ,
18 for the finances and that was finances for many things. It
]
19 wasn't particularly for tritium.
20 IWI New Mexico, I really don't remember there 4
21 being a full-blown board of directors meeting about it.
l 22 Q Who was party then to the discussions regarding 1 23 --
24 A I was part of the discussions. I didn't make any h
25 decisions, but I was part of the discussions about the 1
i MEI.L R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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34 1 tritium problem. Dave was party to those discussions.
2 There was an old accountant that was just a part-time 3 employee that was here that I think was party to maybe a 4 couple of the discussions.
5 Q Who would that be?
6 A His name is Cliff Rounds.
7 Q What about Mr. Wilson? Was he a party to those?
8 A I believe he was, yes.
9 Q And was there anyone else?
10 A I don't think so. I 11 O When the decision was made to go ahead and 12 purchase from Ramrod and Lumitech, do you know what 13 happened at that point?
14 A From which standpoint?
15 Q Was there a contract drawn up?
16 A No, there was not.
17 0 Were there any discussions, verbal discussions?
I 18 Was a purchase order sent?
19 A I believe for the very first order, a purchase 20 order was sent.
21 Q Who signs the purchase orders?
22 A Dave and I sign purchase orders, so I'm not 23 really sure who signed it.
24 Q Both of you have equal authority to sign purchase 25 orders?
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1 A Yes, we do.
2 Q Or did you mean that both of you have to sign 4
3 each one?
ie 4 A I'm sorry. No. Either one of us can sign.
5 Q Can sign?
6 A Yes. ,
1 .
- 7 O And one of you would have had to sign.
8 Is there anybody else who can sign purchase
. 9 orders?
d 10 A No, there's not.
4 11 Q So one of you would have had to have signed the i
, 12 purchase order, is that correct, for the tritium? l l
t 13 A Yes, that's correct. j 1
14 O Do you know if that was then mailed or faxed to 15 South Africa?
i 16 A I believe it was faxed, and the reason -- I 17 believe it was faxed.
4 18 Q Do you have any idea when that was?
.. 19 A No.
1 f 20 MR. JACOBI: If you don't know, you don't know.
] i
, 21 THE WITNESS: In the spring.
, 22 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 23 o In the spring of 1995?
24 A Yes.
~
25 Q When did you receive your first shipment of 1
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l
- 36 1 tritium from Ramrod?
2 A I really don't -- I believe it was in the spring, a
3 but I really don't know because there were problems from 4 the Lumitech side. So the purchase order went out way 5 before the first shipment was ever received.
6 Q When the purchase order went out, what happened?
7 A I believe Dave was contacted a couple of weeks J
8 after the purchase order was sent out, and I believe that a '
9 machine had broken down at Lumitech. It was not 10 surprising. We were used to dealing with Canada, so I
- 11 believe that was the first contact after the purchase order 12 went out. I believe the contact was made from Ramrod.
13 Q To notify IWI of this problem. Is that what you 14 mean?
? \
j 15 A Yes, I believe that's -- and this is very 1
16 confusing because you can't pick up the phone and call 17 South Africa. So all of the correspondence was done by fax i l l i 18 and it was done overnight. l l
19 MR. JACOBI: Why can't you pick up the phone and 4
20 call South Africa?
4 21 THE WITNESS: It's night there when it's day
! l 22 here.
23 MR. JACOBI: Oh, you mean you can, but it's just 4
24 inconvenient, ,
l 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, you can. It's very NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. !
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37 i
1 inconvenient.
! 2 MR. JACOBI: Stay up later.
4 3 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 Q So you used the fax a lot; is that correct?
j 5 A Yes, that's true. Very true.
i 6 Q Did you keep copies of all these faxes?
j 7 A I believe we have most of them, yes.
8 O Do you have the invoices and receipt documents 9 that would show us the dates that IWI received the tritium?
4 10 A I believe so, yes. !
11 Q Did Dave have any additional contact then with
] !
- 12 Ramrod and Lumitech as this was progressing? ,
5 l 13 A As I said before, they corresponded with him. So
) 14 there were times that I really didn't know. I really I
i 15 couldn't say I mean, I know that there was corresponding
].
16 going on, but I wasn't privy to a lot of it.
17 Q Do you know how many shipments of tritium IWI has 18 received from Ramrod or Lumitech?
19 A No, I don't. I do not.
20 Q Do you have those records available here?
21 A Yes, we do.
22 Q Do you know whether all the tritium was purchased 23 on a purchase order?
24 A Yes, it was.
25 Q There were no verbal purchases?
NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l .
i l
38 1 A I believe not. ,
i i 2 O At the point in time when you started purchasing 3 from Lumitech or Ramrod, did you purchase any more from SRB .
l 4 Technologies, any more tritium?
5 A Our contract was not quite -- excuse me. Can you 6 repeat that question?
7 Q After you purchased -- you started purchasing f 8 from --
tritium from Lumitech or Ramrod -- I don't know l i
9 which to say -- in the spring, I believe you said, of 1995, 10 has IWI purchased any tritium from SRB Technologies since 11 that time?
12 A Not since that time, no.
13 MR. JACOBI: You mean since the first purchase ,
14 from Lumitech?
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes. i 16 THE WITNESS: Should I expound on that?
17 MR. JACOBI: Well, I think this is a ye or a no ,
16 question. Do you know whether as of the day you received 19 your first shipment from Lumitech you ever made any 20 purchases from SRB thereafter?
21 THE WITNESS: We tried, but no, we did not.
22 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
23 Q You tried when?
24 A When? It was in the summer, I believe, end of 25 spring, first of summer. ;
( l l
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l , .
39 1 Q Of 1995?
2 A Yes, of 1995. Yes.
l .
2 O Okay. Now, you mentioned the contract and we got l 4 off on something else. The contract with SRB Technologies, l
l 5 if I understood your testimony earlier, you said that was 6 only supposed to be something to protect them financially.
7 Did that prohibit you from ordering anything l after the, if there was, the expiration date on that 8
9 contract? Did that prohibit IWI from ordering from SRB l 10 Technologies? ,
l 11 A I can't remember the last page of the contract 12 with the -- we did not write this contract. It was written 13 by Barry Mowry, and so, we did not feel it was done very 14 well. .
l l 15 It was basically a contract that was written for l f
l 16 SRB Technologies. It was all good for them and not so for l
l 17 us. Barr, felt that he needed to do that, from what I 18 understand.
l 19 Q Barry did or Mr. Pullen did?
l 20 A Barry did. Barry felt that the only way that he 21 could continue to have this source, because he had already 22 made SRB so angry in the past before we were involved, was 23 that he needed to give SRB a comfort level, major comfort )
24 level. l l 25 And so, that's the way the contract was written.
NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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i 1
., 4C 1 It was like SRB had writt.en it.
2 O So do you knca whether there was anything in the 4
3 contract that prohibited JWI from purchasing from SRB after 4 the contract expired?
5 A I believe that there was a clause within the J
6 contract, but I can't remember.
7 O Do you have a copy of the contract here?
8 A Yes, we do.
9 Q Thank you. I'm going to ask you one more time, 10 do you know who made the decision to purchase tritium from 11 Ramrod or Lumitech?
12 A I really don't know who made the actual conscious 13 decision to actually make the first order. I do not know.
14 0 Okay.
15 MR. JACOBI: May I, for a second? How many !
16 c,fficers for IWI are there?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, it had to be Dave, but I 18 didn't -- I don't actually know.
1 19 MR. JACOBI: Was it you?
l 20 THE WITNESS: No, it was not me.
21 MR. JACOBI: Is anybody else other than you and 22 Dave authorized to make a decision like this?
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
25 Q When IWI purchased tritium or decided to purchase NEAL P. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l 41 i
i tritium from Lumitech or Ramrod, what was your
). 2 understanding of IWI's New Mexico possession license 3 regarding tritium?
. 1 4 A My understanding of the license was that we 5 needed -- that for their sealed source possession, SRB, I i
- l i 6 believe, was the only company that was on that license at 7 that time. We knew we had to get the change -- the license 8 amanded. So we filled out -- we had done this before when l
9 we changed the names.
10 So their procedures here are very simple and 11 because we had gone through this before in making a change, 12 we -- I still had the cop;:s of that in the file, so I made 13 new copies and we filed them. We sent them, I believe, by l
14 courier. Well, let me take that back. I'm really not sure j 15 how we sent it. j 16 But we filled it out to change the sealed source 17 possession, and filled out all the requirements and sent a 18 check with it and sent it down there to Santa Fe.
19 O Do you remember when you did that?
20 MR. JACOBI: Spring.
21 THE WITNESS: Spring. I'm terrible at names and 22 dates.
23 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
24 O Did you keep a copy of that?
25 A Yes, we have.
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. . 1 42 1 Q Was your check ever cashed?
2 A That I don't remember. And, you know, on the 3 check issue, I can't even remember because I sent so many 4 checks out for the NRC and for New Mexico, that I might be 5 confused. We might not have needed a check for New Mexico 6 Environment Department. That I might be confused on.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Because when we -- okay.
9 Q Okay. Did you ever get an amended license from 10 New Mexico?
11 A Yes, we did.
12 0 When?
13 MR. JACOBI: After.
14 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: ,
15 O When did you -- do you remember approximately 16 when?
17 A I believe it was the first part of the summer, I 18 believe.
19 Q Did you have any discussions, you yourself, with 20 the State of New Mexico regarding this?
21 A Yes, we did. 1 1
22 O What discussions did you have? l l
23 A I believe the New Mexico Environment Department l
\
24 landed on our doorstep some time in the beginning of l 25 summer, I believe. They walked in, said that they had been NEAL R. GROFS & CO., INC.
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43 1 contacted by you, I believe, regarding --
2 MR. JACOBI: You indicating Ms. Van Cleave?
3 THE WITNESS: By Ms. Van Cleave, yes. That's
- 4 what they told us. That they had been notified that we
, 5 were possessing Africar tritium and that our license did 6 not cover us to possess African tritium.
3 7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I did not notify them that your 8 New Mexico license did or did not do anything. So don't 4
9 say --
5 j 10 MR. JACOBI: She's testifying to what she was
,' 11 told.
12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
13 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
14 Q So I'd like to know, when you say that, did they l
15 tell you that I notified you that your New Mexico license
- i i 16 --
j l l 17 A They told me they were .Totified by an NRC l
18 investigator.
19 Q That what?
i 20 A That we were holding South African -- that the l
21 NRC had been notified that we were holding South African l 22 tritium and that the NRC wanted to investigate it, was it l
4 23 true, were we holding.
24 Q But did the --
25 MR. JACOBI- That's not the same thing as you i
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, 1 said before.
1 2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 MR. JACOBI: Let's go back because you mentioned 4 Ms. van Cleave's name and I understand her concern for 5 accuracy.
6 THE WITNESS: Right. I understand.
7 MR. JACOBI: The New Mexico Environmental 8 Protection people? Is that who you said they were?
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I don't know the exact name.
10 THE WITNESS: NMED.
11 MR. JACOBI: Whatever that means. NMED " landed 12 on your door"?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 MR. JACOBI: And they, the NMED, told you, Pat 15 Wilson?
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 MR. JACOPI: Told somebody?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 i
19 MR. JACOBI: At IWI that they had arrived on your 20 doorstep because they had been made aware that IWI was in 21 possession of South African tritium.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 MR. JACOBI: Is that right so far?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 MR. JACOBI: And they were aware -- they were NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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! I concerned that the New Mexico possession license -- is that 2 the right word?
1 3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Possession license.
4 MR. JACOBI; -- possession license might have not l'
- 5 been adhered to, if that were the case. Something like 6 that?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
8 MR. JACOBI: And they further told somebody here, j 9 other than you, that they arrived on the doorstep with that 10 information because someone at the NRC, an investigator at 11 the NRC, had contacted the NMED, to that effect?
l 12 THE WITNESS: That is what I was told.
13 MR. JACOBI: And you were told this by somebody 14 at IWI?
1 15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. JACOBI: And who would that person be?
17 THE WITNESS: It was e.ther d Dave or Ken. I can't 18 remember which one.
19 MR. JACOBI: And did either of those people --
20 you might want to have Ken come back in then. Did either 21 of those people mention Ms. Van Cleave's name as being 22 referred to by NMED as the person from NRC who made these 23 statements?
24 THE WITNESS: That's what I was told.
25 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
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46 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
4 2 o Who were you told this by?
3 A Either --
l 4 MR. JACOBI: Ken or Dave Gregor. i 5 THE WITNESS: -- Dave or Ken. I really can't )
6 remember which one. )
7 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: l l
8 Q So you didn't hear this directly from the person l l
1 9 who came from the State of New Mexico? l l
10 A The quote about you, about Ms. Van Cleave? No , I 4
11 did not hear that directly from them.
12 o What did they specifically tell you? Did you )
l 13 meet with them, whoever that person was from the State of I
, 14 New Mexico?
1 1 i 15 A There were two gentlemen. I was very busy that )
16 day with a big order that we were working on, so I was not 4
17 called in immediately. Eventually, I was called _.1 off of 4 18 the job that I was working on and they asked me l 19 specifically to see the tritium inventory.
20 I immediately went and got the tritium inventory 21 and brought it to them.
22 MR. JACOBI: You mean physically bringing in all 23 the tritium?
24 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, no. We are required to 25 do tritium inventory sheets, l
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47 1 MR. JACOBI: A list?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. So I brought them the tritium 3 inventory sheets and I left and went back to what I was 4 doing.
5 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
6 0 Did you have any further involvement with their )
7 inspection?
8 A No, I did not.
9 0 What was the outcome of the inspection?
10 A From what I was told -- I received a letter and a 11 phone call approximately four or five days late- from the 12 NMED. I do not remember the gentleman's name, but it was a 13 gentleman that was here. In fact, there were two gentlemen 14 that came that day.
15 The phone call was to let me k.ow that a letter 16 was on its way and to tell me that that day, when we 17 produced -- when they were in the office, we produced a 18 copy of everything that we had sent to the NMED for them to 1
19 add South Africa to our license. ,
i l
20 They got back to their office. He said they 21 searched high and low for it. He said that there was a 22 desk -- and this is what he told me. He said his i
73 secretary's desk was literally stacked with applications l
i l
2 '. and whatever, and that they had searched through that pile, 25 but had not been able to find it, and could I please fax NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. i (202) 234-4433 l
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48 1 him all the information again, even though he had carried a 2 copy of it with him.
3 And so I did. And that he would -- that the )
4 letter that was coming, he explained the letter to me and 5 told me what to do about the letter, and that was the end 6 of the call.
7 0 What did he tell you to do about the letter?
8 -
A The letter listed two items that they wanted us 9 to change, as far as inventory of tritium went. We were i 10 doing it right, but we were leaving some information off 11 and he w=,ted us to add this information so that it would l
12 be easier for him, when he came back to do his inspections, )
13 as far as millicuries and curies went, how to read the i
l 14 chart.
15 And so, it was just basically a housekeeping type 16 of situation. ~
17 0 .;ow , if I understood you correctly, they could 18 not locate the request to amend the state license that you 19 said IWI had sent to the state; is that correct?
20 A That's what he told me.
21 Q That's what he told you personally, right?
22 A Yes, he did.
23 O And has New Mexico subsequently amended IWI's 24 possession license to show tritium received from the South 25 African source?
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49 1 A Yes, they have.
2 O Does it also show SRB Technologies?
3 A I don't know. I believe it does. I believe it 4 shows both of them.
5 Q Okay.
6 MR. JACOBI: All on the same license?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. The reason why it would is 8 because he knew we still had Canadian tritium in house, and 9 that we also had the South African. So he added South 10 Africa to the license.
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: Can I add something about that, 13 about the license?
14 MR. JACOBI: If you want to.
15 THE WITNESS: Can I add something about that 1
l 16 license?
27 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Sure.
le THE WITNESS: I know how our office works and 19 maybe I'm wrong in assuming this, but the minute that we 20 showed him a copy of the license that we had sent to them i
21 and that had been sent quite a while before they came in, i 22 the phone call I received, which I said was approximately 23 four days later, I received a license in my hand through 24 the mail actually before I received the infraction letter.
25 So I don't know if that makes any difference, but NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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,4 1 50 i 1 I was kind of surprised.
4 2 MR. JACOBI: Shows how efficient they are.
P 3 THE WITNESS: I was just shocked that we received
' it so quickly.
4 I mean, it was immediately sent.
5 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
! 6 Q Did New Mexico, the State of New Mexico take any 1
7 additional steps? Did they sanction IWI for possessing 4
1 8 South African tritium or say that that was any kind of 4
9 violation or anything like that?
, 1 j 10 A They did not sanction us as far as I know. In l 1
!' 11 the letter, they mentioned it in the letter and that was i 12 one of the items that needed to be fixed.
13 MR. JACOBI: That sounds like a letter of 1
, 14 correction.
15 THE WITNESS: That's exactly it.
1
! 16 MR. JACOBI: I think the question asks whether
$ 17 any affirmntive aceion or negative affirmative action was 18 taken by the state by letter or authority, by sanction, by 19 penalty, by anything.
9 i 20 THE WITNESS: No , not that I know of. No. ,
4 21 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
22 O But you did receive a letter that mentioned that?
i 23 A Yes, I believe it did.
I 24 Q And what was your understanding of the NRC i
l 25 license regarding a source of tritium for IWI?
l NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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51 1 A After we started to -- that we could only sell 2 sights with SRB Canada tritium in them. l 3 O Distribution license?
4 A Yes. I i
5 O Correct?
6 A Right, yes.
7 Q You've already said you don't know exactly when 8 you received the first shipment of tritium from South ,
9 Africa, so I can't really speak exactly to that specific
- 10. time, but you did receive it? Can I say that you did' t
11 receive srme at least a few months ago?
12 A Yes, that would be accurate.
13 Q What-did IWI plan on doing with the tritium from 14 South Africa if you were aware that you, under your NRC l i
l 15 license, were not authorized to distribute South African l l
16 tritium? ,
17 A First of all, we thought that we could add it to 18 the license, that we'were working on having our NRC license 19 changed or amended at that time, and we felt that we could
- 20 add that as another amendment within that same amendment l L
21 that was-being worked on at that time.
L 22 We hired a consultant in Washington and he was 23 going to help us de that. And so, when we had the L
24 possession license, that's exactly what we did, we i
25 possessed. We knew that we also had to do research and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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52 1 development with this tritium that's required by the NRC.
2 So we had to do testing with it and we knew that we had to
- 3 do that in-house because it had been done before.
4 So that was basically what we were doing. We 5 were preparing for the future, I guess you would say.
1 6 MR. JACOBI: Can I ask a question? Maybe we 7 could go off the record for a second because I don't think 8 it's appropriate for the record.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: We could probably take a break 10 now anyway.
Il MR. JACOBI: Okay.
12 MS. VAN CLEAVE: We're going to go off the 13 record. It's approximately 12:15 p.m.
14 (Recess) 15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: We are back on the record. It's i 16 approximately 12:30 p.m. and we took a break, a stretch l l
17 break, and Mr. Jacobi asked for a little explanation on the i
18 difference between the New Mexico possession license and 19 the NRC distribution license.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
, 21 Q Ms. Wilson, at that point when we went off the 22 record, we were discussing your understanding ci the NRC 23 license.
24 You had said that, I believe, that you had hoped 25 that the license would be amended to include sights or NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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53 l l
1 lights from Lumitech or Ramrod; is that correct?
2 A Right, -hat is correct.
1 3 Q Has such an amendment been filed with the NRC, to l 4 your knowledge?
5 A Yes, it has.
6 O Has it --
7 A To my knowledge it has.
8 MR. JACOBI: You mean an application for an 9 amendment or an amendment?
10 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Has it been filed. It's a 11 request for an amendment that had been filed with the NRC.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe it has.
13 BY MS. VAN CLEA"L:
14 O Has any --
15 MR. JACOBI: Do you know when it was done?
16 THE WITNESS: End of summer, fall. )
17 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
18 O So it's been fairly recent; is that correct?
i 19 A Yes, but the reason -- actually, we've been 20 working on it since we started to decide to make the ]
21 change, and the problem -- there has been a problem with 22 the licensing at the NRC in Washington and they keep 23 flipping it back to us, back and forth, back and forth.
24 So we have a consultant in Washington who has !
l 25 been literally walking it in and dealing with the inter-NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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- O 54 1 bowels of the NRC in Washington with it.
2 0 Has any amendment been issued?
3 A No, not at this time.
4 O Then is it your understanding that IWI's still 5 working with this license here, which was issued on April 6 the 3rd, 1995? I believe the change at that time that was 7 made was to change the name and IWI of Nevada as opposed to B IWI of New Nexico, and I believe there was one additional 9 change. There was an insertion of a clause regarding Mr.
10 Mowry.
11 A That io correct.
12 Q And this license shows an expiration date of 13 1993. It was my understanding from the NRC headquarters 14 that IWI has authority to continue to operate under this 15 license.
16 Is that your understanding?
17 A That is my understanding.
18 Q I was here in June of 1995. I spoke with you, 19 Mr. Wilson, Mr. Gregor, and I looked at some records, and, 20 in fact, you provided me with SRB invoices for purchases of 21 tritium.
22 At that time, you didn't mention to me another 23 source of tritium, Lumitech or Ramrod, or the fact that IWI 24 had entered into negotiations or, I believe at that time, 25 you had already even issued a purchase order for tritium NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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55 1 from South Africa.
2 Why didn't you tell me that?
3 A I don't -- okay. I don't really know that we had 4 issued a purchase order at that time. I don't rementer if 5 those two facts --
6 0 The invoice that I have from Ramrod, I believe it 7 came from Mr. Gregor, was dated June the 6th, and I was 8 here on June the 8th, and if I understood you earlier, you f
9 said there would have been a purchase order; is that 10 correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 MR. JACOBI: Before you go further witn that 13 question, I would like to remind the record that Ms.
14 Wilson's testimony was that she didn't know whether it was 15 by purchase order or who signed it or when it took place.
16 It would have been one of either her signature, and it was 17 not, or Mr. Gregor's signature, which by inference, 18 therefore, it was, but she didn't know when it took place.
i 19 And now you're advising at least me that you 20 showed up here two days after this June 6th purchase order, 21 and now your base question was -- I don't mean it's a base 22 question. I mean, the basic question is, why didn't you, 23 Pat Wilson, tell me, Virginia Van Cleave, that there was no 24 South African order.
25 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Wait a minute. There was no NEAL R. GROSS & CO., 'INC.
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56 1 South African order?
2 MR. JACOBI: Why didn't, you asked her, why 3 didn't Pat tell you about the South African order.
4 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Or about the negotiations with 5 South Africa. Yes, that is my question.
60 MR. JACOBI: Well, as far as the order is n
7 concerned, I think that it's -- forgive me -- a 8 disingenuous question because of her prior testimony saying 9 she doesn't know when the order was issued. As far as 10 negotiations, that's a different question and I'll be happy 11 to have her try and answer it.
12 MS. VAN CLEAVE: But she had said that she was --
13 it was her understanding that there was a purchase order 14 issued for that first order and I believe the record will 15 show she did say that. Now, she said --
16 MR. JACOBI: But she didn't say when.
17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Excuse me, excuse me. No, she 18 didn't say when, but she did say that there was a purchase 19 order issued and that it was signed either by her or by Mr.
20 Gregor.
21 MR. JACOBI: No, she said it wasn't her. You 22 asked whether her capacity to sign purchase orders existed.
23 I then asked her who besides she and Gregor have the power.
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, I don't want to get into 25 an extended discussion on that. I believe that she said NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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57 1 that she didn't recall who had signed that initial purchase 2 order, that it was either one of them.
3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I'm saying -- I believe that the 4 NRC got this invoice from Ramrod from Dave Gregor, I 5 believe, or from someone at IWI and it shows a date of June 6 the 6th of 1995. So I'm just saying that. I was here on 7 June the 8th of 1995.
8 MR. JACOBI: I'm not disputing that.
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Now, even if we discount any 10 knowledge she might have had of a specific purchase order 11 or a specific date, she has testified that she was aware of 12 negotiations with Ramrod or with Lumitech to purchase --
13 MR. JACOBI: Yes.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: -- the tritium.
15 MR. JACOBI: Yes.
16 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
17 O Why didn't you mention that to me at that time?
18 A My position, as far as when you came that day, 19' was that I was to provide you with everything that you 20 asked me for. I'd never gone through this before, of 21 course, with any federal agency, and so I really didn't 22 know what I was supposed to give you. I just was supposed 23 to give you what you asked for.
24 It wasn't that I didn't do it intentionally at 25 all. It really wasn't. I really don't remember that that NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 0 58 1 order had gone out before you came. I'm surprised when you
^
just said that.
3 I know that I was told that it was being worked 4 on and that the purchase order, in my understanding, was 5 only so that they could start to see if they could do an 6 order for us in South Africa. Like I also stated earlier, 7 they were unable to at that point in time because a machine 8 broke down and various other things happened.
9 I believe that during the meeting with you, I 10 believe a question was stated to me if all we had in-house 11 -- well, no. You asked me about our tritium in-house. I 12 didn't think I was saying anything wrong. I knew that all 13 we had in-house was Canadian tritium and as far as I knew, 14 I didn't know that we would be receiving any South African 15 tritium for a long time.
I 16 I did not handle changing the license at all. I 17 thought that thesa measures were being taken. That was my 18 understanding.
19 Q Do you know if these measures were taken?
20 A I knew that I had sent the amendment for New 21 Mexico, but that's as far as I carried that information.
22 Q Now, the information that I had from New Mexico 23 was that the date on the form, the amendment form that you I 24 had submitted that they said they could not find, was dated 25 June the 14th of 1995. So again, that would have been NEAL R. GRCSS & CO., INC.
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1 after my visit here.
l-l 2 A I don't remember that. It shouldn't have been.
1 l 3 It should have been before the initial order. I really 4 don't know --
5 0 Well, I don't know when you received it. I 6 really don't know exactly when you received it. I've just l
l 7 been citing the date of the invoice from Ramrod, was June 8 the 6th, i 9 MR. JACOBI: That's an invoice or the purchase l 10 order or is that the same thing?
l l 11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: No, it's from Ramrod.
12 MR. JACOBI: It's an invoice from Ramrod?
l 13 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Right. So I really don't know 14 when it got here and that's going to be one of the things I
i 15 that I would like to know.
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
l l 17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: When it was received here, l l l 18 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
l 19 Q I cannot recall asking you, and I'll tell you 20 that I can't recall, if I asked you if you had another 21 source of tritium because, frankly, it didn't even occur to 22 me. And you and I discussed the license and we discussed 23 SRB Technologies and I believe I recall discussing some r
24 problems that you had with them and you provided me with 25 what you said were the invoices for the purchases of NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
l (202) 234-4433 l
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60 ;
t 1 tritium. ;
i 2 But I just wonder why you didn't tell me ' bout .
3 that at that time, that you were looking to a different 4 source. It just never came up in conversation. I just 5 wondered if there was any particular reason for that.
6 A No , there really wasn't. I thought that it was ,
7 being handled and what I had been told --
8 MR. JACOBI: Pat, you answered the question.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: I 11 Q And then I talked to you again in June, according 12 to my records it was June the 30th of 1995, about this. I 13 don't know if you recall me calling on the phone and asking 14 about whether or not IWI was purchasing tritium from South ,
I 15 Africa.
16 Do you recall talking to me on the phone about 17 that? ,
18 A I remember you calling me.
19 O Well, I'm not asking you if you remember the 20 exact date, but do you remember?
21 A I remember you calling me, but I really couldn't 22 tell you what the conversation was about.
23 0 You don't recall the conversation?
24 A I promise you I do not. I really don't. I i 25 remember being called, but I don't remember the 1
i NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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61 1 conversation.
2 0 Okay. You sent me a letter dated July the 5th, 3 1995, that I believe was following up on our conversation 4 and you mentioned in the letter that there was a verbal !
1 5 agreement with South Africa. I believe I had asked you if 6 there was a contract or anything like that, whether or not 7 you had received any tritium from the company yet.
8 In your letter, you said there was just a verbal 9 agreement with South Africa, but you didn't mention that 10 any tritium had been ordered.
l 11 Is there any reason why you didn't mention that?
12 A When I wrote the letter, I was in a hurry to 13 leave to go to Cancun, and I remember --
14 MR. JACOBI: Pat, is there any reason? If you i
15 can't think of a reason, say -- f I
16 THE WITNESS: No, there was no reason, no. I 17 don't -- I just answered your questions, I believe.
18 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q Well, I had asked whether or not you had received 20 any, verbally. I mean, this was on the phone, whether you 21 had received any, and again, I'm not sure if you had 22 because I don't know the exact date that they were 23 received.
24 A I don't remember.
25 MR. JACOBI: This is a letter in response -- j NEAL R. GPCSS & CO., INC.
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1 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I had called her.
2 MR. JACOBI: -- to further conversations with --
3 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes. I had called and spoken 4 with Ms. Wilson and I spoke with Mr. Gregor. I believe I 5 spoke with him -- did I speak with him first? I think I 6 did. And he said he didn't --
7 MR. JACOBI: Does the letter indicate that no 5 8 tritium has been receiveat a
9 MS. VAN CLEAVE: No. It just doesn't address j 10 that question. It doesn't address that question.
! 11 THE WITNESS: I don't remember being asked that 12 question.
13 MR. JACOBI: It would be helpful to find out when 14 it was received.
e 1
i 15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, right. I certainly agree 4
i 16 with that.
17 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: !
', 18 O Do you have a written contract or written ;
i I
- 19 agreement now?
4 20 A No, we do not.
21 Q At that time, you said you did not.
22 MR. JACOBI: With Ramrod?
l 1
23 THE WITNESS: We do not.
\
~
24 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
25 Q With Ramrod or Lumitech? You still do not have a j I
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E . .
63' f l
l i 1 --
2 A We do not.
I 3 0 -- written contract or anything in writing? j t
4 Okay.
5 Has IWI sold any night sights with inserts from j t
~i 6 Lumitech or Ramrod or any other company besides SRB ;
7 Technologies?
8 A 'Not that I know of.
9 Q You're unaware of sales of any' night sights to j 10 any company that have Lumitech or Ramrod inserts in them; .;
i
~
i i
-il; is that correct? !
t l
12 A We were told -- I believe not. j l
l 13 0 Who's responsible for the sales?
14 A Well, indirectly it comes to me. Do I expound on 15 this? I have to explain it in order *o answer it. '
l 16 MR. JACOBI: Are you aware of any sales of l 17 Lumitech c. Ramrod inserts -- is the word inserts?
( 18 THE WITNESS: They're the lights'.
l 19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: In tritium inserts is what they 20 are.
21 MR. JACOBI: Tritium inserts. l 22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Um-hum, in the gun sights.
23' MR.'JACOBI: By IWI.
l 24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: They're put into the sights.
25 THE WITNESS: Personally no.
I I NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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64 4
1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 O Well, my next question, though, was who was 3 responsible for the sales, and you have said that you are 4 ultimately.
- 5 Now, is there a middle person in here somewhere?
l 6 A We have a sales team that sell our sights, 1
7 basically, and the orders come through them. So I l 8 ultimately do not see orders until they're brought to me at
. 1 9 a later date.
10 Q When the tritium inserts came in-house to IWI, 11 you earlier said that you amended your New Mexico license 1
12 to possess them, and that you were hoping to amend the NRC l
13 license to distribute them; is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
I
! 15 Q You're nodding your head.
. 16 A That is correct. I'm waiting for you to finish. !
, 17 O Were you planning on holding them? I asked you j 18 before, what were you planning on doing with them? You did 19 not have an NRC license that authorized distribution of 20 them.
4 21 Were you holding them somewhere? Did you have 22 them in a safe somewhere or a storeroom? What did you do 23 with them when they came in?
24 A They were inventoried to some and they were put 25 in a safe.
NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC. l (202) 234-4433
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65 1 Q Who has access to the safe?
2 A The supervisor of the ritium room has access to 3 the safe.
4 0 Who is that?
5 A And I also believe Dave has access to the safe.
6 O Dave Gregor and who is the other individual?
l i
7 A Audrey Perea. ;
l l
8 Q She's the -- 1 9 A Supervisor of the tritium room.
10 Q Who's responsible for getting the tritium out of 11 the safe to give to the women that put it in the aun 12 sights? l 13 A Audrey Perea is.
14 0 was there ever -- was the tritium from South 15 Africa segregated from the tritium from SRB Technologies?
16 A To my knowledge, yes, it was.
17 O Where was it? How was it segregated?
18 A When the tritium was received, it's received in a 19 canister. Each different bag of tritium is marked and it's 20 separated at that time. It's kept in its bags, it's not 1
21 taken out of them except to do inventory. It's put right i 22 back in and then it's put back in the safe.
23 Q Where was the tritium from SRB?
24 A The tritium from SRB is in the same safe, but it 25 is -- SRB tritium is taken out of the bag because it was NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 inventoried a long time ago, and it'r separated as per size 2 and color and if it's for bars or whatever. And then it is 3 separated into -- she has separate little compartments, so 4 to-speak.
l I
5 They're not actually compartments, but separate 6 places in the safe where those go, and she knows which is l
7 which.
l 8 0 When you say "which is which," what do you mean?
l 9 A Well, the South African tritium was kept in its t
10 actual baggies. It was never actually separated out to be 11 put into p'astic tubes or anything.
l 12 O So what are her instructions? Does she only 13 handle the tritium cnce it's in plastic tubes?
l 14 A No. She actually handles the lights once they i 15 come in. She was told to do an inventory because I had to 16 for the NMED, and to put it back in its canister and to put 17 it in tne safe ari leave it alone.
18 0 You mean the South African tritium?
19 A Yes.
l 20 Q So what tritium does she retrieve from the safe l 21 to put into the gun sights? j
! 22 A The Canadian tritium. When the Canadian tritium 23 came in, it was blocked, which is a term that they use in 24 the back, and that means that they put the sights into the 25 plastic tubes and they're ready to be installed. They're l
NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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67 1 put in blocks.
2 O Does she insert the tritium into the little 3 plastic sleeves, or her people?
4 A Yes, they do.
5 O They do? Okay. So she is taking out just the 6 little vials of tritium; is that correct?
7 A Yes, that's correct.
8 o Okay. Could she have removed or would she have l 9 removed any tritium from the South African packages?
10 A I -- I --
]
11 MR. JACOBI: Is that the end of the question?
12 MS, VAN CLEAVE: You don't know? l 13 MR. JACOBI: Wait a minute. I'm not sure, is 14 that the whole question?
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes. I have a secondary 16 question after this.
17 MR. JACOBI: No. I wasn't sure you were finished 18 and she started to answer too soon.
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 Q Did you ever have any discussion with her that 22 this is South African tritium and it's up here and it's in 23 baggies and we aren't going to do anything with that?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 o You did tell her. Did you personally tell her NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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7 68 i
1 that?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 0 okay. What did you tell her?
4 A I believe I told her to count the tritium because 5 I had to have it for the NMED, and then I needed her to put 6 it back into the canister and to put it away and not to use .
l 7 it. l I
8 o As far as you know, is that what she did?
9 A As far as I know, yes.
10 0 Is IWI still selling gun sights, night sights 11 now?
12 A Yes, we are.
13 Q With tritium in them?
14 A Yes, we are.
15 Q There was a letter from Mr. Gregor to the NRC 16 saying that IWI had discontinued sales of night sights.
17 Are yo' aware of that letter? It's dated July 18' the 17th.
19 A Discontinued total sales?
20 Q Yes. I'm not sure what that means or for how 21 long. That goes to my next question.
22 You're not aware of that letter?
23 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Dennis, can you find it? It may 24 be behind a fax from Susan to me. That letter, I don't 25 believe, is addressed to me. I think it's addressed to NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
(202) 234-4433 I
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69 1 Susan. Here it is.
2 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
3 O That's the letter and it's dated July the 17th, 4 1995, and it is addressed to Susan Greene from Mr. Gregor.
5 Are you familiar with that letter?
6 A I never saw the letter.
7 0 You've never seen this letter before?
8 A I have not.
9 Q Do you know what it means?
10 MR. JACOBI: I think the letter speaks for 11 itself.
12 THE WITNESS: I never read this letter.
13 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
14 O To your knowledge, did IWI ever discontinue 15 sales?
16 A There was one --
17 MR. JACOBI: Well, wait a minute. It does not 18 say sales, if you're asking that question. It says 19 stopping production.
All right. l 20 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
l 21 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
22 Q Did IWI ever stop production?
l 23 A We did for ene week. We laid off -- we didn't t
24 lay off. We sent several people home. I never saw this l
25 letter, but I was told by Dave that we needed to do an NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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l 70 1 inventory of tritium. We needed to check all the tritium.
2 We needed to make sure that we were cot installing African 3 tritium into sights.
4 At that point in time, I told him I had told 5 Audrey not to, but I didn't know anything about this 6 letter. I never saw it. '
i i
7 Q Did he say anything to you at that time that !
l l
8 would be similar to what he has said here, that some of the i 9 tritium has been matched and could be mixed in with the l l
10 existing SRB tritium? Did he mention that to you? l l
11 A He asked me if that was a possibility. My answer 12 to him for that was I don't know. I guess it could be a 13 possibility, I'll have to check it. And so that's when I 14 let several machinists go for the week. We basically shut i 15 down for approximately a week, I believe it wes, and the 16 shipper just came in to receive packages. We'didn't send-17 anything out that week at all.
le Ar.d we did an inventory, and the canister was up 19 in the top of the safe like I had said it was and that was 20 it.
21 O When you did the inventory, were all the tritium 22 inserts there?
23 A I did not physically do the inventory.
24 Q Who did?
25 A Audrey did.
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71 1 Q Did you see the count?
2 A Yes, I did.
i 3 0 Did you compare it with the tritium that had been 4 received from South Africa?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 0 Was all the tritium there?
I 7 A No, all of it was not there.
)
8 O How much was missing?
9 A I'm not sure.
10 Q Do you have those records somewhere that I could 11 look at?
12 A Actually, no.
13 Q What happened to them?
14 A What happened was Audrey did a count, her count, 15 and I brought the count up front and I noticed that what 16 she had done when she did the tritium counts, she added all 17 the triticms together. l 18 0 You mean by color, size, everything, just one big 19 total?
i 20 A Yes. !
i 21 Q Ie that what you mean?
l 22 A So we had a major problem on our hands because i 23 when she did the counts, she added them all together. She 24 added South African counts with the Canada counts in her 25 final count.
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72 1 Q Okay. I understand. So she gave you a total of 2 everything cnat was in that safe?
3 A Yes.
4 O Did anyone recount it, separate it out?
5 A We did after the fact, yes.
6 o Well, after that, right. After she counted it, 7 did anyone do it again?
8 A At that point in time when I had her do the 9 count, that's when I first became aware that she was adding 10 both tritiums together. And I believe I told Dave that 11 there wac no way. I would have to go back through all the l 12 sales to decide how many Canadian lights had gone out, trat a
13 had been shipped out, and would have to just start working 14 backwards in order to come up with a number, and that was 15 pretty much the end of it.
16 He told me that we needed to make sure that all 17 of the So.;h African tri*.ium was totally separated in that 18 safe, and that they were notified, and that's when I 19 notified her again that they were not to use any South 20 African tritium.
21 Q Did I not understand you to say that some of the 22 tritium was missing?
23 MR. JACOBI: South African tritium.
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: South African tritium.
25 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
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1 I
i
l .= ,
73 i
1 Q How did you -- !
2 A Yes.
l l
3 ( -- determine that if you had a big count?
4 A Because there was one -- there was only one l
l 5 particular light that we could determine that was South l
6 African and that was red.
7 Q Because why?
l 8 A We did not have any other red in stock from l !
l 9 Canada. When I researched this further, I found that Dave ;
10 had actually had red tritium put into some sights for R&D l
'l so that we could test it, and I could not get a count on 1
i 12 exactly how many lights had been put into those sights at l
l 13 that point in time.
14 O Do you know how many sights then were missing?
15 A No, I cannot remember, 16 O And is red the only thing that you could !
17 definitively say was not all there?
18 A Yes, that is correct.
19 Q You didn't go back then and do a separate count?
l 20 You said that they South African tritium was separated.
21 You didn't go back and -- you or someone else -- do a l
l 22 separate count of the South African tritium?
23 A I do not have a separate count at this point
(
24 because when the New Mexico Environmental Department, when j 4
25 they sent me the letter, they told me to put it all NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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74 ;
1 together in millicuries, and so that's what I did. And 2 then it kind of stopped at that point and I gave the 3 information to Dave and waited to see what they wanted to l
4 do, and I was really never told to carry it any further.
l 5 0 What information?
l 6 A About when he told me to go and --
7 Q The total?
8 A Exactly.
l 9 Q So he didn't ask you to separate it out further 10 or have Audrey separate it out further. ,
11 Is that what you're saying? You waited for him 12 to tell you something, but he didn't?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q You didn't pursue it any further; is that i
[ 15 correct?
l
, 16 A That is correct.
l l 17 O !'ow, there was also a letter by your consultant i
18 to the NRC that said something very similar to this.
i 19 MR. JACOBI: Casner wrote a letter similar to the 20 17th letter from Gregor?
21 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Yes, stating that -- I'm not 22 sure where that is either.
l 23 THE WITNESS: What month is that again? !
l i l
24 MR. JACOBI: July, i
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: This is Ju2y the 17th. And it NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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75 1 states something to the effect that IWI has shown good 2 faith by -- yes, here. July the 19th to Pat Santiago. It 3 says, "IWI reaffirms its commitment to maintain compliance 4 with the NRC. The decision to stop shipping product," may 5 be where I got that.
6 MR. JACOBI: Could I see it?
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes, um-hum.
8 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
9 Q So I want to be sure I understand, you did not 10 ship, is that correct, or produce for one week?
11 A For one week. <
F 12 O Was that approximately in July --
13 A Yes.
14 0 -- this time period of these letters?
15 A Yes. The moment that we were notified or that I 16 Dave was notified, I believe it was Dave that was notified, 17 and I don't even r.now who. I don't know if it was the 18 consultant that told him, I don't know.
19 O Notified of what? l 20 A That there was a problem with mixing of African 21 and Canadian tritium.
I 22 O How would the consultant know if tritium had been 23 mixed?
24 A I don't know. I don't know how this all came 25 about. I'm still confused because the conversations NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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76 1 weren't with me. I just know that I was told to go back 2 and do that. I guess that's I've never actually seen that 3 letter.
4 0 Okay. And after this one-week time period, what 5 happened? Did IWI go back into production?
6 A Yes, we did.
7 0 Were any additional steps taken to ensure that 8 the South African tritium would not be shipped out?
9 A Weekly, I would check the work orders of what was 10 being shipped, and it was a spot-check type of situation 11 because everyone here had been notified not to ship out any 12 African tritium. And we would spot-check the work orders.
13 o How would you know, other than the red, which you 14 already stated? How would you know if it was South African 15 or SRE?
16 A I knew that we still had enough Canadian tritium 17 that were in blocks that there was no reason for her to 18 even touch the South African tritium. And she knew that I 19 knew that because I made her aware of that. So I would 20 check with her weekly, also, to see how low she was.
21 MR. JACOBI: How low she was on?
22 THE WITNESS: How low she was on Canadian 23 tritium.
24 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
25 Q What is your status now? How much tritium do you NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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77 1 have left of Canadian?
l 2 A I would have to have it separated, but we're very 3 low. I couldn't give you a number at this point in time, 4 but I could get it. But we're getting very low. ;
1 i
5 O Do you know how much tritium you have from South ;
6 Africa here? l 7 A It's, like I said, before the tritiums were 8 still, because of the NMED being put together for how much 9 we're holding, and we haven't separated that out yet, but 10 we can. So it's the same amount. The numbers on the South 11 African tritium for the last two months, three months, 12 whatever, have not changed. We're still holding the same 13 s amount that we had and they're 'till, I believe, in the 14 canisters.
I 15 0 But I understood you to say you didn't really i
16 know what that was because everything was together.
17 A Exactly. It's still together.
18 Q Okay. I just want to be sure I understand that
( 19 you don't really know; is that correct?
20 MR. JACOBI: I'm not sure I understand what she 21 is saying.
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
23 MR. JACOBI: Would the following be correct?
24 Understandings of your testimony so far on this, that the 25 South African tritium is in a safe?
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78 1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. JACOBI: In the same safe there is presently, 3 there always have been, some number of -- some amounts of 4 Canadian tritium?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 MR. JACOBI: That the South African tritium is 7 segregated in the safe by virtue of it being in bags that 8 it came in or canisters that it came in?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
10 MR. JACOBI: That when the inventory count was 11 done on tritium, whatever her name was, Audrey made a total 12 tritium count as opposed to so much South African plus how 13 much Canadian?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
15 MR. JACOBI: That over the last two months, there 16 has not been an increase in the number of South African --
17 in the amount of South African tritium that's in ,mur safe?
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 MR. JACOBI: Can I assume that that's the case 20 because you haven't received any more from South Africa?
21 THF WITNESS: Right, we haven't.
22 MR. JACOBI: And that the amount of Canadian 23 tritium in the safe has gone down because it's been used in 24 the production of sights and the shipping of sights?
25 THE WITNESS: Correct.
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79 1 MR. JACOBI: And finally, that the amount of 2 Canadian tritium in the safe is very low?
3 THE WITNESS: Correct.
4 MR. JACOBI: And you could find out the total 5 numbers of each of Canadian tritium and South African 6 tritium by counting or referring to audits or doing 7 something that you can do to isolate one from the other? ..
8 THE WITNESS: Correct.
9 MR. JACOBI: Good, thank you.
10 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
11 Q Well, it's my understanding they were chysically 12 separated; is that correct?
13 A They are physically separated, yes.
14 MR. JACOBI: Well, see, the problem that I had 15 was she used the word " separated" two different ways and I
. 16 just wasn't sure it was clear on the record.
17 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Okay. j 18 MR. JACOBI: I'm happy that you said they're 19 physically separated because it is.
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: All right.
l 21 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
l t
l 22 O So actually, although Mr. Gregor's letter here 23 says that "We're stopping all production until we can i
24 obtain approval to insert and ship South African tritium," l
- 25 if I understand you correctly, production was stopped for 4' 1 i
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i 80 1 one week and then production resumed, shipping what you .
I 2 believe to be only SRB Technologies tritium; is that 3 accurate?
4 A That is correct.
5 0 How familiar are you with sales to specific 6 customers?
7 A Actually, I try to stay out of the sales office 8 as much as possible.
9 0 Who handles the sales? l 10 A There -- well, sales is divided and we had an 1
11 individual who no longer works here, but was the head of 12 sales f r a time, and he ran it.
l 13 Q Who was that?
14 A Andrew Barka.
15 Q And who does it now?
l 16 A Right now, it's kind of on a standstill. Since l!
17 we are low on Canadian tritium, we haven't hired anyone to 18 take his place. We have a female that sits in the rooms 19 that takes trouble-shooting calls for customers who have 20 had our sights or whatever, whatnot, and she takes those i
21 calls. But we have not replaced Andrew.
22 O The NRC license lists several different gun l 23 sights and models and makes.
24 What was your understanding from your review of j 25 the license as to what IWI -- what type of night sights IWI NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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81 I could se !
2 A My understanding from reading the full license !
i i
3 that had al1 the other amendments attached was that we :
could manufacture and sell Glock, three dot and bar dot.
4 l
5 We could do Sig, we could do Colt. I understood from 6 reading it we could do Smith & Wesson, and then there was a l 7 whole long list that evidently were amendments that Barry 8 had had added to the license for very specific weapons like
'9 H&K Benellis, USPs. They could come in-house, but we could 10 do -- Il thought from the license that we could do any of
-11 those weapons. That was.my understanding.
12 0 When you say weapons, do you mean the sights on 13 the weapons?
14 A When I read the license, I thought that we could 5 do those type of sights .cnr that we could do the sights 16 actually into existing. That's what I thought, l
i 17 Q Well, when you and'I had some discussions here in 18 June, we talked about this and do you recall that we talked 19 about this? I think this is the list that you're referring 20 to here.
21 That the license here specifies these that would 22 be sold, the following removal sights manufactured by the l
23 licensee, which is IWI, and the following again removable 24 sights manufactured by the OEM, the original equipment 25 manufacturer, which is Smith & Wesson. This is Glock and NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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. 82 1 this is Sig, I believe. l l
2 This list is something different right here, and l
3 did you discern a difference in these, this license which l t
1 4 lists these nine categories here, removable sights, because j l
5 it says here, "The following applies to weapons identified l 6 I in the letter dated November the 4th, 1991, where the J
l 7 licensee has mounted the sources onto the weapons," and i l
j 8 then these are the models of the tritium inserts that are :
9 listed there.
t 10 And then it says, "The following apply to :
i
?
11 removable sights manufactured either by the licensee, IWI, l i
- 12 or by the OEM," which in this case would be Smith & Wesson.
13 Did you discern that difference that is stated l 14 here on.the license?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 0 And what was your understanding of that 17 difference?
18 A Well, to ne, it was very confusing at first, very 19 confusing. I understood the removable sights very well i \
20 except for (c). (c) I didn't understand because OEM, when 21 I first got involved, I actually thought that we had bought 22 from the OEM.
23 So wl.en you later came and spoke to us at great a
24 length about this, Smith & Wesson partictlarly, that was 25 news to me.
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83 1 MR. JACOBI: I'm going to leave the room for a 2 second. She's welcome to continue. I must call my office 3 at exactly this moment because we're expecting a judge's 4 decision. Please continue.
5 MS. VAN CLEAVE: All right.
6 THE WITNESS: So that was the problem on letter i
7 (c), was OEM to me did not mean particularly Smith & Wesson 8 because actually, Smith & Wesson doesn't make their own j 9 sights. So OEM meant someone who manufactured those
. 10 sights, but not particularly Smith & Wesson. So that was 1 1 4 11 where the misunderstanding on Smith & Wesson came to me.
12 This part -- )
l l
13 B f MS . VAN CLEAVE:
4 14 O Now you're referring to the registry dated 15 November the 13th, 1991?
16 A Right. It talks about a November 4th letter. I i 17 think this is what part of the misunderstanding was to me, j 18 was when you would try to track the records, the dates
- 19 didn't correspond sometimes. Not in everything, but in a 20 few situations. I 21 So when they -- when the license specifically 22 said November 4th letter, I don't know that I actually saw 23 a November 4th letter. I can't remember.
24 0 I think that that was probably a letter from --
25 yes, that was a letter probably from Barry Mowry to the NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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84 1 NRC. This is the NRC's registry of the sealed sources and 2 devices in accordance with his letter.
3 A Right. I understand. What didn't make sense to 4 me, though, was how they responded so quickly, November 5 13th from November 4th. So I didn't really think that this 6 was part of that, and I'm sure it was just my oversight, 7 but it seemed like this was something prior to this.
8 Q Had you seen this before --
9 A Yes.
10 0 -- this registry by the NRC?
11 A Yes, I had.
12 O What did you think it meant?
13 A The way I took this document, interpreted this 14 document, was that any adjustable sights or fixed sights on 15 specific weapons like Smith & Wesson J-frames, which some 16 of these would be revolvers, they would have to be done in-17 house. So I took it to mean that we had the permission to l
18 put sights into existing sights on these weapons because we !
i 19 couldn't do it any other way anyway. )
1 20 So that's what I took it to mean. As we went ;
1 1
l 21 down the list, I was told by Barry Mowry that as we went l
22 down the list, that we were approved anything that wasn't a l l
23 gun like a Taurus or a revolver of some sort, that the 24 people could just send their sights in and we could just 25 put them on the sights, because that's the way he explained NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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85 1 the license to me.
2 He had written this, so I assumed he understood 3 it because I didn't.
4 0 But did you know that he had problems with the 5 NRC?
6 A Let me explain something about him and the 7 problems with the NRC. To my understanding -- do you not 8 want me to?
9 O Sure, go right ahead.
10 A I did not know, when we came in and we put a lot 11 of money and financial backing into this company in the 12 very beginning when we first started, I did not know he was 13 in trouble with the NRC. He kept a black book that has all 14 of the NRC licenses and everything hidden in his safe. We 15 never were privy to it in the beginning.
l 16 I've never in my life dealt with the NRC before.
17 This was a new experience, and so, when I was on my way to 18 Dallas in '94, I don't remember what month, it was the 19 fall, and we had just -- Ken had told me that we received a 20 letter from the NRC about the abeyance of the case, about 21 it was under abeyance. That was the first acknowledgement 22 or information that we had ever seen that there was any 23 type of problem with the NRC.
24 I took the book with all the licenses in it that 25 you have seen and went to Dallas, because I was a paralegal NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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86 1 there for many years, to talk to some of my friends to see 2 if I could get an NRC attorney, scmeone who could help us 3 to fix this, to see what the problem was, because we didn't 4 even really understand why it was in abeyance, what he had 5 done, nothing.
6 As I'm sitting in the airplane, I opened the book 7 and in the side pockets, there was a document that was 8 against Mr. Barry Mowry from the NRC stating that they were i 9 trying to search -- trying for criminal charges of some 10 sort. I had never seen this document, none of us had ever 11 seen the document. 1 l
, 12 I immediately landed in Dallas, called Ken, he '
13 was here at the time, and said, "You're not going to 14 believe this. I'll fax it to you." That our first 15 real understanding that there was a problem. And that was, 16 I believe, in the fall of '94.
17 Q Did you ever find out what that problem sas?
18 A That is, I believe, when Ken started dealing with i
1 19 Susan Greene and she, I believe, explained it to him. I 20 was only given certain information on that. My 21 understanding of it was that he had evidently sold sights i 22 to Millett and Colt Manufaceuring, I believe it was, that 23 were not stamped, and that he nad been told to fix it, I 24 believe.
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87 1 much from the synopsis that was at the back of the 2 document, that he had been told to fix this problem; that 3 he evidently had told them he had fixed it, I believe, he 4 told them he had fixed it, but I believe that he didn't fix 5 it; that he did not -- supposedly, I think, Millett and 6 Colt were supposed to send the sights back. l 7 He was supposed to then stamp them and then send d
8 them back. But I don't believe he did that.
9 Q Well, there's also an issue with Millett as far 10 as those sights were unmounted and Millett sights are not
] 11 part of the registry of the -- were not approved by the NRC t
] 12 the put tritium inserts into, and that issue -- I don't 13 know what document you saw, but' it should have also i
14 referred to that issue because those two issues were
- 15 closely tied.
16 A I don't remember that part.
17 Q The sale of unmounted night sights that were not 18 authorized and the sale of unmarked or unstamped sights.
l 19 Those were two separate issues.
20 A The only thing that stands out in my mind is the a
21 logos. That's the only thing that I really remember 22 reading at great length were those.
23 O So what were you selling then? Any kind of -- I t
24 mean, inserting tritium into any kind of sight, mounted,
< 25 unmounted, loose?
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88 1 A When we first came in, yes, and then and even up
- 2 until -- we were trying to get, and I don't know who they 3 were trying to get this from, but we were trying to get 4
4 someone to explain the license to us in greater detail, and I
, 5 maybe it was Susan Greene. I really don't know who that l
6 was. I 7 Our knowledge was of weapons, but it wasn't of ;
, 8 this license, and to me, the license seemed sometimes 4
9 ambiguous. It seemed confusing to me. And then even when l l l j in you came for your investigation or to do your inspection 11 and all that the first time, it seemed like we both saw 12 things d fferent, like our perception was different. l 13 Of course, you're from the NRC, but it seemed l 14 like I was not understanding what you were saying was a 15 fact. And so, that's when you told us we needed to stop 16 the Smith & Wesson's, but we still weren't in total 17 agreement over who the OEM was on Smith & Wesson.
i la O I think you and I -- I know you and I discussed 19 --
I remember discussing the rifle sights. ;
20 A Oh, yes, right. And we took those off.
21 Q That they were authorized to be mounted only, and 22 that any of these would be -- as a matter of fact, when I 23 left, I thought we understood what the license -- I thought 24 you understood what the license when I left.
l 25 A I believed we did, but we still wanted -- well, i NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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89 1 because we were trying to change the license to amend it, 2 so we wanted to make sure we were amending it correctly, or 3 to the best of our knowledge, and that's when Casner got 4 involved and we tried to go forward. So yes, I agree with 5 that.
6 Q What are you currently selling in terms of night 7 sights, mounted, unmounted, whatever?
8 A I would have to go back and get a -- we're doing l
9 all Smith & Wessons on weapons. We're going into existing 10 on just about everything that's listed here, I believe, as 1 11 it comes in.
12 O Now, the ones that are listed there, are those i 13 being put into existing sights --
14 A Yes.
25 0 -- or sights on the weapon or the slide?
l 16 A That is correct. Most of these you could not do 17 them any other way. There are a few that you could, but 18 most of --
Those can be, I )
19 Q The rifle sights for one. 1 20 understand,. can just be screwed off; is that correct?
i
]
21 A That is correct.
Okay. Who handles the customers? I guess I 22 Q l
23 should say is who tries to increase your customer base, 24 increase your sales? Do you have a sales force that does 4
25 that or does Mr. Gregor handle that?
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90 1 A At this point in time, we really don't have j 2 anyone doing that, at this point in time.
1 3 Q Let's say I want to buy an unmounted night sight 4 of some sort. What would happen? I would call your number 5 and I say, you know -- let's use a rifle, that's easy --
6 can you send me a night sight for my rifle because it just 7 screws in, what would happen? Who would I talk to?
8 A Okay. You want to know specifically about a 9 rifle sight?
10 Q Well, I'm going to use that one --
11 A Just as an example.
12 0 - as an example. l l
13 A Tne call would come in, whoever answered the 14 phone would give it to the lady that I had mentioned 15 earlier who is the trouble-shooter.
16 Q And who is that again?
i l 17 A Mary Patterson.
18 0 Okay.
19 A And she would just basically take the information 20 from them and then, the reason for that is she doesn't l
21 really know a lot about this. She knows about the sights, 22 but she doesn't know about particular weapons that well 23 yet. So she just basically takes the information.
. 24 If they want information sent to them, then 25 she'll send them something like a brochure or something, 4
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s c 91 1 but other than that, if it is a normal order like a Glock 2 sight, a sig sight, something very simple like that, she 3 will actuaily take the order over the phone.
4 0 Who finally decides whether or not a sight can be 5 sold, that it's okay to sell that unmounted under the NRC 6 license?
7 A We have a gentleman by the name of Ray Ryrick who j 8 is very informed as to all of our sights. He was here 9 previously. He was in the Barry Mowry realm. He would be 10 the one that would decide if that was a sight that was able 11 to go out. He's a supervisor, also, in that area.
12 O Are you familiar with Miniature Machine 13 Corporation in Fort Worth? ,
14 A Yes, I am.
15 0 Who handled or handles the sales of night sights 16 to them? l 17 A Dave Gregor does.
1B Q He personally handles that?
19 A Yes, he does.
20 0 So if they wanted night sights inserted into 21 their sights, they would contact him rather than this other 22 individual that you mentioned? He wouldn't make that 23 decision?
24 A That is correct.
I 25 0 Are you aware of what's been sold to MMC?
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. . i 92 1 A I get the work orders, but as far as -- no, not 2 really. I mean, I could trace it down.
3 o But you're not familiar with it? If I wanted to 4 ask , specific questions regarding the agreement with MMC, 5 would you have those answers? Who would you refer me to?
6 A Dave Gregor for MMC.
7 Q Do you know anything about their sights?
8 A Not really.
9 Q I mean, do you know they're patent pending?
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q Did you have anything to do with selling those 12 sights at all to MMC?
13 A The orders would come in. MMC would like fax, l 14 for example, an order for Glock fronts.
I 15 Q Now, are those manufactured here?
16 A Yes, they are. And I would get the fax because 17 either Dave was not here, and I would write up the order 18 for the Glock fronts.
19 O Now, when they ask IWI to manufacture those, are 20 those always just with the tritium inserts or do you ever 21 manufacture just the fronts that have nothing to do with 22 tritium?
23 A I believe at one point in time, we did do some 24 fronts without anything in them. I believe we did.
25 Q And what about the rear sights?
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J 93 I 1 A The rear sights, I don't have anything to do 2 with. I 3 O Are you unfamiliar with those?
4 A I'm very unfamiliar with them. l 5 0 All right. Do you know if IWI has sold sights to 6 Wilson's Gun Shop in Arkansas? !
7 A Since I have been here, I believe not.
9
- 8 0 Prior to that time, would you know?
9 A Prior to that time, I was told that they did.
10 0 Who told you that?
11 A Barry Mowry.
12 O In what context? Why did he mention Wilson's?
13 A Because Wilson's came out with several T
14 advertisements, I believe, right before Barry left at the 15 end of last year, and many this year, and they were 16 advertising night eyes or night something, and Barry was 17 very upset because Wilson did not advertise whose tritium ,
1 18 it was. !
i 4
19 After Barry left, I noticed another 20 advertisement. We get many of the gun magazines and I have 21 seen many advertisements from Wilson, so that's how I'm 22 familiar with who they are.
23 O But to your knowledge, IWI hasn't sold any to I
24 them since you've been involved with IWI?
25 A To my knowledge, that's correct. .
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94 1 Q What about Scattergun Technologies? I think 2 they're in Tennessee.
3 A The name rings a bell, but I have not dealt with r
4 Scattergun Technologies personally, so I don't remember 5 them offhand.
i 6 Q How about Millett? We mentioned Millett earlier 4
7 about Barry Mowry having sold to them. What about Millett?
8 Are they currently or have they been a customer of IWI 9 since you've been here?
10 A They were a customer before I came.. We got into 11 a big -- a large disagreement with their owner, I believe, 12 and as far as I know, we didn't do any sights for them for 13 a long time. I'm not sure if we have recently or not 14 because there was a big dispute, a large dispute between 15 the two companics, IWI and Millett.
16 Q Do you know if those sights were manufactured by 17 Millett or by IWI?
18 A I do not know.
19 Q Who would handle any discussions or sales with 20 Millett?
21 A Dave Gregor would.
22 Q Does Dave Gregor handle the larger customers?
23 A Earlier, I was going to break down how that 24 worked. If we have a large manufacturer who requires a 25 large amount of sights to be bid on, then Dave Gregor NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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1 handles that.
l l 2 O When you say a large manufacturer, do you mean 3 like Millett or like -- no? What do you mean?
l 4 A I'm talking about like if Glock came in and Glock
( 5 wanted us to do their sights, then they would come to Dave. ,
l I
( 6 O Okay. But what about Millett and MMC? You said i
I 7 he handled them. Do you consider them to be a large
- 1 l
8 customer?
I :
l 9 A Ever since I've been here, Dave's always handled !
! i 10 them. I really don't know why.
1 11 Q Are there any other large customers that he is ;
l l
12 exclusively handling?
, i 13 A He handles H&K. I believe he handled talking l l
14 with the Taurus when they called. That's all I really 15 know. If there is a quote called on and it's any kind of l .
16 an OEM or manufacturer, Dave's given the call.
17 0 Does IWI sell sights to H&K?
18 A Not at this time.
19 0 Have they since you've been here?
20 A I'd have to go back and look at the records, but l 21 I believe so.
22 O How about Taurus?
23 A No, we have not.
i 24 MR. JACOBI: Is there a difference in your 4
i
- 25 questions? This is for me. Is there a difference in your 1
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1 96 1 question about selling sights between a sight eith tritium 2 in it and a sight without tritium in it?
3' MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, w' .= .1 I look at invoices, I 4 want to be sure I understand them because the NRC would 5 have no interest in sights that didn't have tritium in 6 them.
7 MR. JACOBI: That's why I'm asking the question.
8 I didn't understand why you would be the slightest bit 9 concerned about their manufacturing a sight without tritium 10 in it.
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, I want to be sure, if they 12 do that, I want to know that because I would not be 13 interested in that.
14 THE WITNESS: And we have.
15 MR. JACOBI: Okay.
]
i 16 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: )
17 Q Do you have an idea -- do you keep an inventory 18 or do you have any idea how many night sights IWI has sold l
19 since you've been involved with the company?
20 A Not offhand I don't, but we do have monthly steel 21 inventory.
22 Q What does that mean? )
23 A Piecemeal. It's split out between type of steel, 24 like if it's a Colt or if it's a Glock, then the inventory 25 is separated between the different type of sights.
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97 1 O Would that, if you looked through those, would 2 that give you a total, at least an estimate of some sort? l 3 A Yes, it would.
4 Q Would it be the sights? If I wanted to know how 5 many tritium inserts have left here over the last year, how 6 would I determine that?
7 A Let me think a minute. We have monthly 8 inventories of everything that is made up with tritium and 9 without tritium. So you have steel without tritium and you 10 have steel with tritium. We have the inventories of the 11 raw tritium. Then what we have are the invoices from the 12 beginning of the year.
13 Q So there's not really like a running inventory of 14 things? There's some requirement, I know, that companies 15 have to turn into the NRC, but I think it's like every five 16 years or something, that they have to do an inventory 17 count, and I'm not sure. Not being an inspector or on the i 18 technical side, I'm not sure exact); how it asks for that 19 information.
20 So you don't keep a running inventory of the 1 I
1 21 total of what is being sold?
22 A We keep the running inventory as to what's on 23 hand monthly of everything, but the only thing I can say is 24 that we do accounting reports monthly that would probably 25- give us that count.
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98 1 O Would that give us a count of the night sights
- 2 that left here or the tritium inser*s?
3 A I would have to check that out. I know as of 4 yesterday, my accountant -- it's a brand new system and 5 she's had to input everything from January until now. So
, 6 it's been a major project and I know that it's all been 7 inputted, but I'm not really sure what kind.of reports she 8 can get out of it yet. So I could ask her and she could j 9 tell me.
10 0 Okay. Has that been input for the whole calendar l 4
- 11 year or is that just something you just started like maybe i t
12 October the 1st?
13 A She started from January. !
14 Q January the 1st?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How many tritium in; rts go into these night 1 */ sights, three? I mean, like bar dot bar?
18 A only three. We're only cllowed --
19 d Q Three, right?
d 20 A -- three.
21 Q Is that right?
22 A Yes, that is correct.
23 O But like the rifle sights, what's that, just one?
24 A One. The bead on --
25 Q Yes.
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99 1 A Yes, just one.
f 2 O This whole thing. I can't remember what they 3 call that. Nightliner?
4 A Yes.
5 O Okay. That's just one, right?
l 6 A Yes, it is.
< 7 Q But the others like the rear sights, do they all 8 have three or do some of them have t.co or one?
9 A some of them just have two, some of them have 10 one, and some of them have three. So it would either be l
11 just a bar by itself in the rear or it would be two dots in ,
12 the rear, and then we had -- our new license, we're hoping l
13 to have covered the three in the rear like dot bar dot or :
14 something like that, or bar bar bar, something like that.
15 O But you might have two in the rear and one in the 16 front or something like that; is that correct?
17 A That's correct. There's only one always in the 18 front.
19 Q Front, right. 1 20 A Right.
21 Q And now the back one can only have no more than 1
22 two --
23 A That is correct. l 24 0 -- is that right?
25 A That's correct.
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1 Q Okay. And some of them are going to vary, so 2 really looking at the total of the sights, it might give j 3 you an estimate of the tritium, but it wouldn't give you a 4 firm and final count, would it?
5 A That's true. I'm hoping that, from what I said, 6 these documents that she has put into the computer can giva 7 us that.
8 O All right. I'd like to see that. Do you have 9 any idea how many night sights or how many night sights do 10 you think IWI sold in the last year?
11 A This year?
12 O Um-hum.
2 13 A I don't know. The only people that have been 14 interested in that from my perspective, I was interested in 15 it because sales was in the dumper in the beginning of the ;
16 year and we weren't selling very many at all. I mean, I 17 believe, I think in January we sold 800 sights. February
- 18 wasn't much better.
19 We were trying to fight the past history of this 20 company and it was a treacherous one, and so our first 21 quarter was horrible, I know that, as far as the money side 22 of it went. As far as knowing exactly how many night l
23 sights there were, I don't know. ;
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101 1 this is what we're going to do, this is what we're going to 2 sell?
3 A I guess the buck stops with Dave, basically.
4 Q He's the president, correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Dennis, did you have any 7 questions?
8 MR. BOAL: Yes.
9 BY MR. BOAL:
10 Q Ms. Wilson, backing up to that January 1995 SHOT ;
1 11 show in Las Vegas, you said that was the first time that 12 you had heard from Mr. Brian Pullen of SRB Technologies, 13 and that you were amazed that he had displayed so much 14 negative emotion to you about IWI.
15 Is tha*, in general, what you recall of that 16 , conversation?
17 A That is correct.
is Q Since that time, have you ever determined what 19 motivated his outburst towards IWI?
20 A I haven't, no.
21 0 Do you know if anybody in your company has?
22 A That motivated what happened in January?
23 Q That knows why he would want to put you all out 24 of business.
25 A I do not know.
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102 i 1 O When he was talking to you, did you explain to 2 him that you were a new management and not Barry Mowry, who 1
l 3 appeared to have some kind of negative history with him? l 4 A No. I was -- I was -- no, I did not. I was 5 shocked.
6 O Coming up a little bit further from that 7 conversation, Ms. Van Cleave was asking you about the 8 segregation of the South African tritium versus the SRB 9 tritium, and you were telling us and agreeing with Ms. Van 10 Cleave that you had actually shut down for a week 11 production and actually took an inventory and had 12 determined that some South African tritium had been used; I
~3
- is that correct?
14 MR. JACOBI: I'm not interfering with her answer.
15 There was an intriguing statement made by Ms. Van Cleave in 16 response to that. It was an ongoing series of questions 17 about was South African tritium used. The answer appeared 18 to be yes, it was, and then there seemed to be a statement 19 from the witness that it was red tritium. Ms. Van Cleave 20 had asked, how would you possibly know it was red tritium 21 and there was no Canadian red tritium, and then there was a 22 statement made about it was used for R&D purposes.
23 So I'd really like to not have the question 24 answered implying other than used for R&D purposes, if that 25 is the witness' testimony. Is that your testimony?
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,- i 103 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's my understanding. l 2 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
3 Q From whom?
4 A From Dave.
5 BY MR. BOAL: l
.6 0 Your understanding then of that week and that l
7 inventory is the only South African tritium used was used l 8 in R&D? !
9 A That was my understanding. !
10 0 Did you ask Andrea how that happened, since she-(
-111 was responsible.for it? !
12 MS . lnW CLEAVE : I think her name is - is it 13 Audrey?
14f MR. BOAL: I'm sorry.
15 THE WITNESS: I knew who he meant, nobody else.
16 MR. BOAL: Well, two of us.
'17 THE, WITNESS: I don't remember.
18 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
19 0 Who handles R&D?
20 A Dave does.
21 o would.he be responsible then for perhaps saying 22 to -- taking this tritium out.maybe? If he handles it,
'23' would he be responsible? You told me that he had access to 24 the safe and Audrey had access to it.
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104 1 almost positive that Dave is the other person who has the
- 2 combination to the safe. I don't have it. He could have, 3 I don't know.
4 Q Did you ever discuss it any further with him?
5 A How he received those pieces?
6 O No, the R&D part of it.
7 A No, I did not.
8 Q Do you know if any other colors were used in any 9 of the other South African tritium? I think you said red 10 was the only one that you could determine for sure.
11 A Exactly. That's the only one that I could really 12 determi..a in that. So no, I do not know.
13 MR. BOAL: That's all I had.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I don't have any other questions 15 right now.
16 MR. JACOBI: Neither do I.
17 MS. VAN CLEAVE: We'll go off the record.
18 MR. JACOBI: No, maybe you want to ask the same 19 three questions.
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.
21 MR. JACOBI: Those are the three questions.
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I wouldn't want to omit those, I 23 know. Thank you very much.
24 MR. JACOBI: You're welcume.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I'd just be in trouble if I 1
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i 1 omitted that.
2 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
3 o Ms. Wilson, I have three questions that I am 4 supposed to ask at the conclusion of an interview.
5 Have I or Mr. Boal threatened you in any manner 6 or offered you any rewards in return for the statement?
7 A No.
l 8 Q Have you given the statement freely and 9 voluntarily?
10 A Yes.
11 O Is there anything further you care to add for the '
12 record?
13 A Nc.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Now we'll go off the record.
15 Thank you very much.
l 1
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the Unit'd States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of: Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
INTERVIEW OF PATRICIA G. WILSON ,
l at Albuquerque, New Mexico, were held as herein appears, i and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or l l
under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
/.
Court Reporter NEAL R. GROSS & CO., INC.
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