ML20129C694
| ML20129C694 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/19/1995 |
| From: | Boal D, Van Cleave V NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20129C121 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-96-246 NUDOCS 9610240099 | |
| Download: ML20129C694 (41) | |
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
+ + + + +
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5
INTERVIEW 6
x 7
IN THE MATTER OF:
8 INNOVATIVE WEAPONRY, INC.
9 INTERVIEW OF Docket No. N/A 10 KENNETH E.
WILSON 11 12
x 13 Thursday, October 19, 1995 14 15 Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
l i
16 337 Eubank, Northeast 17 Albuquerque, New Mexico 18 19 20 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 21 10:00 a.m.
22 BEFORE:
t3 VIRGINIA J.
VAN CLEAVE, Investigator 24 DENNIS BOAL, Investigator NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC. EXHIBIT hf l
PAGE /
OF I O PAGE(S)
A (202) 234-4433 U!r NO. 4-95-022"
2
+
1 APPEARANCES:
2 on behalf of the Witness and the
'4 censee, 3
Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
4 HERBERT M.
JACOBI, ESO.
5 8 West 38th Street, 9th Floor 6
l l
l t
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 l
4 l
l l
l
- - - _ = -. -
l, 3
1 EE9CEEDIEGS i'
2 MS. VAN CLEA/E:
On the record.
For the rs /
d, 3
this is an interview of Kenneth E. Wilson 4 Al date of birth, 5
i I
6 THE WITNESS:
'41.
i 7
MS. VAN CLEAVE:
'41, thank you.
-- who is self-
]
8 employed.
The date is October the 19th, 1935 and the time i
9 is approximately 10:00 a.m.
Present at this interview are i
j 10 myself, Virginia Van Cleave, NRC Senior Investigator; 11 Dennis Boal, NRC Investigator; Herbert M.
Jacobi, attorney 12 representing Mr. Wilson; and Mr. Wilson.
l
!l 13 This interview is being tape recorded by court I
f 14 reporter Carrie Gansle.
Mr. Wilson, if you would please 15 stand and raise your right hand?
I 16 WHEREUPON, 17 KENNETH E. WILSON 18 having been called as a witness in the above-entitled 19 proceedings, was sworn and testified as follows:
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 Q
Mr. Wilson, I was here back in June of this year 22 and I spoke with you at that time.
Some of this 23 information I probably got from you then, but I would like 24 to u.t just a little information on the record about your 25 back.Jround and how you became involved with Innovative NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
,L,
4 1
Weaponry, Inc.
2 What is your background, Mr. Wilson, employment 3
background?
4 A
How far back?
5 Q
Just briefly.
Oh, maybe the last ten years or 6
so.
7 A
Well, I've worked as a consultant for various 8
companies in the last ten years.
l 9
O What would you -- how would you characterize your 10 employment?
11 A
As a consultant.
12 O
And in what capacity?
13 MR. JACOBI:
Are you'asking what kind of 14 consultancy?
15 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Yes.
16 THE WITNESS:
Financial.
1 17 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
18 Q
Financial consultant.
And how did you become j
19 involved with IWI?
20 A
I was asked by the previous president to help him 21 save his company.
j 22 O
And the previous president was?
i 23 A
Barry Mowry.
l 24 Q
When was this, approximately?
25 A
First time probably in March
'94.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 I
5 1
Q Where did you meet Mr. Mowry?
2 A
I was introduced to him by a man by the name of i
3 Phil Ortega.
4 0
And Mr. Mowry, you said, wanted you to help him 5
save his company.
6 Does that mean he was in financial difficulties?
7 A
Financial' difficulties.
8 Q
What did he ask you to do specifically?
9 A
His company was in Chapter 11 and a federal judge 10 had given him about 30 days.
We're now speaking in July of 11
'94 instead of March.
March was the first time I met him.
12 In July, he called me and asked me to meet and see if I had 13 any ideas of how to save IWI.
14 Q
And after you spoke with him, you decided to try i
i 15
- o help him --
16 A
Yes.
17 Q
-- get involved with IWI?
18 What did you do to assist him with his request?
19 A
Well, there was various things that I've done, 20 but most important, we did a plan of reorganization, 21 submitted it to the federal judge.
22 O
And what has been your position with IWI?
Have 23 you gust been a consultant all along?
24 A
All along.
25 0
And have you ever had any type of corporate NEAL R GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
6 1
position with IWI?
2 A
No, ma'am.
3 0
When did Mr. Mowry leave IWI?
4 A
I'm not sure of the exact date.
It was probably 5
a year ago, November, October.
6 O
Of 1994?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
And did the corporate structure change at that 9
time?
10 A
Yes.
11 O
Who became the president?
12 A
David Gregor.
13 Q
What about other corporate officers?
Were there 14 any?
15 A
Patricia Wilson.
16 O
And her position?
17 A
Executive vice president.
16 Q
And other corporate officers?
19 A
I think Richard Bates was nominated as a vice 20 president.
21 Q
Any others?
22 A
There are two companies.
Fred Rausch from Kansas 23 was acting as the president of the public company at the 24 time.
25 o
Okay.
And is that a holding company?
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
j (202) 234-4433 1
7 1
A Yes.
2 Q
And what was the name of that?
3 A
First National Holding Group.
4 Q
And if I understand, you incorporated IWI into 5
IWI of Nevada; is that correct?
6 MR. JACOBI:
Could you rephrase that question?
7 Technically it's not an incorporation.
8 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
It's not an incorporation?
9 MR. JACOBI:
Well, you don't incorporate one 10 company into another company.
You may acquire, you may 11 merge, you may do all kinds of things, but ther is, as I 12 understand it -- I don't want to be the witness here -- but 13 there's a company sited in Nevada, a public company named 14
-- what was the name of it again?
15 THE WITNESS:
First National Holding Group.
16 MR. JACOBI:
And there is a company that was in 17 bankruptcy in this state, in New Mexico.
Somehow there was 18 a conglomeration made between these two companies, 19 something happens.
That's not a re-incorporation of any 20 kind.
Tnat's maybe an acquisition, maybe a merger, maybe a 21 22 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
See, I had misunderstood.
I 23 thought that IWI of Nevada, Incorporated, but now you're 24 saying the holding company then merged with --
25 MR. JACOBI:
I'm not saying anything.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 j
i i
i 8
1 MS, VAN CLEAVE:
-- IWI?
2 MR. JACOBI:
I'm saying that I don't understand 3
the use of the word " incorporated."
4 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
I guess that's my question.
5 What happened?
6 MR. JACOBI:
What happened, Ken?
7 THE WITNESS:
IWI put out a plan of 8
reorganization.
9 MR. JACOBI:
When you say IWI, you're referring 10 to the New Mexico corporation?
11 THE WITNESS:
The New Mexico corporation.
12 compiled a plan of reorganization in which First National 13 Holding Group would acquire -- (brief interruption).
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
For the record, that was Just a 15 brief interruption by Mr. Gregor.
16 THE WITNESS:
-- where First National Holding 17 Group would pay to creditors stock for the debt.
}
16 MR. JACOBI.
Creditors of IWI?
19 THE WITNESS:
Of IWI of New Mexico, and First 20 National Holding Group would acquire the stock of IWI of 21 New Mexico.
22 MR. JACOBI:
That seems to be a description of an 23 acquisition pursuant to which IWI became a wholly-owned 24 subsidiary of the Nevada company; is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS:
That's correct.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
9 1
BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
i 2
Q What is your current involvement with IWI?
3 A
I'm consulting them on financial matters.
I 1
4 Q
How often do you interact with IWI as far as 5
acting as a consultant?
Do you office here?
Do you come l
6 here on a weekly basis, or is it just sporadic, as needed i
7 type of arrangement?
I 8
A Well, I travel quite a bit.
I'm in New York 9
City, I'm in Oklahoma City, I'm in Dallas, Texas.
There is
.10 a table that I sit at when I'm here and a phone for my use.
1 11 Since I am married to one of the officers, I interact with 12 her quite a bit.
13 Q
Do you have other consulting businesses --
1 14 A
Yes, I do.
I 15 Q
-- that you're also involved in at the present 16 time?
17 A
Yes, I do.
18 Q
When Mr. Mowry left approximately a year ago, was 19 his departure friendly?
20 A
No.
21 MR. JACOBI:
Ken, take your time before you 22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
24 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
25 Q
Was he asked to leave?
NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
10 1
MR. JACOBI:
Are you asking Mr. Wilson if Mr.
2 Wilson asked him to leave or if he's aware of somebody else 4
3 asking him to leave?
4 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Well, either way.
5 MR. JACOBI:
Well, they're very separate 6
questions.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Okay.
8 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
9 Q.
Mr. Wilson, did you ask Mr. Mowry to leave?
10 A
No.
11 MR. JACOBI:
That assumes that he would have had 12 the ability to ask Mr. Mowry to leave.
13 THE WITNESS:
No, I did not.
14 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
15 Q
Do you know if any documentation was drawn up 16 asking Mr. Mowry to step down from his position as 17 president?
18 A
I think Mr. Mowry had a discussion with his 19 attorney and some corporate bankruptcy attorneys and they 20 concluded that he would leave.
That's what I'm aware of.
21 Q
All right.
How familiar are you with the day-to-22 day operations of IWI?
23 A
Outside of financial activities and the stock 24 information and acquisitions of other companies, I don't 25 have anything to do with the day-to-day operations.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
~-
. - ~ - -..
i 11 1
Q How familiar were you with the NRC license of 2
IWI?
4 3
A I'm still not familiar with it.
4 O
Did you read it?
5 A
I've attempted to.
6 0
When you first became involved with IWI and, I the corporate officers changed, did you read the NRC
[
7
- guess, I
8 license at approximately that time?
We're talking about a 9
year ag, now.
10 A
I read the license, understood somewhat of it.
11 "1R. JACOBI:
You weren't asked whether you 12 understood it.
You were asked if you read it.
l 13 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
14 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
15 0
And you kind of -- I thought perhaps you were 16 implying that you found the license hard to understand.
17 Now, what was your understanding of the license?
18 You said you read it.
Can you just briefly tell me if you 19 had an understanding of what type of gun sights were to be 20 or could.be sold under the license and what type of tritium 21 could be used?
22 Did you read it that carefully?
Were you 23 involved, I guess, that much with IWI?
24 A
Well, there's about five questions there.
25 Q
I know.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
12 j
1 A
Okay.
2 O
You were looking kind of puzzled.
I was trying 3
to explain kind of the direction my cuestions were heading.
1 4
A Okay.
Do I understand it completely?
No.
Did I 5
read it?
Yes.
Do I understand it today?
No.
Do I 6
understand what sights are covered in it?
No.
7 Q
When you read it --
8 MR. JACOBI:
When he read it in 1994?
9 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
10 0
-- when you read the license -- I'm talking about 11 in the past.
I'm sure we've had multiple readings of the l
12 license since then, but back a year ago, when you read it 13 back approximately a year ago, what was your understanding, I4 if you had one, of the type of gun sights that were 15 authorized to be distributed by IWI?
16 A
My understanding was that IWI could do any sight 17 that come into this building.
I understood that there was 16 ambiguous license, and that we needed to get it amended.
19 And when I read the license is when I was in Washington or 20 Maryland, Rockford, Maryland --
21 Q
Rockville.
22 A
-- Rockville, Maryland sitting in the conference 23 room with Susan Greene and the two attorneys.
At that 24 time, we went through the license and I come away more 25 confused than I was when I went and didn't understand i
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 I
=-
13 1
entirely what sights we could sell.
2 O
The license lists a number of sights, Smith &
Wesson, Glock, Sig, and it also specifies mounted and 4
unmounted.
5 Did you understand what that meant?
6 MR. JACOBI:
I'm a little confused about where 7
we're going here.
Mr. Wilson has told you under oath that 8
he's a consultant, financial, for this company.
Mr. Wilson 9
has testified that he's a financial censultant to this 10 company, and though he has told you that he happens to be 11 married to one of the officers in the company and 12
" interacts" with her, whatever that means, he has 13 specifically disqualified knowledge of day-by-day 14 operations of this company, and even if he had, what 15 uifference would that make?
16 Meaning, why are you asking him questions about 17 his understanding of a license when he is not involved in 18 the licensing procedure, unless there is something that I 19 misunderstand from his testimony that you're aware of.
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Well, he met with the NRC.
He 21 said he did meet with the NRC --
l 22 MR. JACOBI:
Yes.
23 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
-- and discussed the license, l
24 So if he was involved to the point of meeting with the NRC 25 to discuss the license, he said also that he knew the NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
14 1
license had to be amended.
I would like to know what his 2
understanding of the license is after that discussion, and 3
this is the license.
I have it here.
4 MR. JACOBI:
Mell, I guess my question is, what 5
difference is his understanding?
Let's assume that they
)
6 had called me up in 1994 and they had said, "Mr. Jacobi, i
l 7
read this license and decide whether you think we ought to i
8 have it amended."
9 And I said, "I don't know anything about gun 10 licenses or NRC licenses or anything else, but I'll read 11 it,"
and came to the conclusion that it should be amended 12 and went to Washington or to Rockville and met with 13 somebody named Susan Greene and two attorneys and said, "I
14 want this amended," what's the difference what my 15 understanding is based on?
16 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Then I would ask you -- if it 17 was you, I would also ask you whether or not -- what your 18 understanding was of the license and whether you conveyed 19 this understanding to the employees of IWI.
20 MR. JACOBI:
That's a fair question.
Accept 21 that.
Okay.
Why don't you just ask him that?
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Because I wanted to know what 23 his understanding of the license was and then follow up to 24 ask --
25 MR. JACOBI:
Then I want a predecessor question NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
15 i
1 if possible, and that question is going to be, did you --
i 2
if you communicated information about your understanding of 3
the license to the company, did they ask you, did you 4
advise them on what they could or could not do pursuant to 5
that license?
a 6
That's a very different concept.
You're asking j
7 him maybe whether he told them how to operate on a day-by-8 day basis or pursuant to the license as opposed to whether 1
]
9 the license needs amending.
I'm drawing a very finite 10 distinction here as far as I'm concerned, but having said 11 that, please go ahead and ask.
12 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
13 Q
Mr. Wilson, let me back up a minute.
Why did you 14 go to the NRC to discuss the license?
15 A
There was an administrative hearing for Barry 16 Mowry and IWI, and I was advised by an attorney there that 17 if I would show up, and since Barry Mowry had resigned, 18 maybe we could work this thing out and do away with the 19 administrative hearing.
20 Q
You were advised by an attorney where?
21 A
In NRC.
22 Q
Oh, the NRC?
23 A
Yes.
24 O
Do you know who that individual was?
25 A
Katherine Marco.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
16 1
O Oh, okay.
2 A
And one of her assistants.
I talked to her 3
assistant his name is escaping me.
I don't know.
I talked 4
to both of them.
5 MR. JACOBI:
Katherine Marco was an NRC attorney?
6 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Yes.
8 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
9 Q
Did you meet with Ms. Marco, also, when you went?
10 A
Yes.
11 Q
And who attended this meeting?
12 A
Ms. Marco, the other attorney, and Susan Greene.
13 Q
And what was your capacity as related to IWI at 14 that meeting?
15 A
Consultant.
I told them I was a consultant.
16 Q
What was discussed during that meeting?
17 MR. JACOBI:
Was there unybody else in the 18 meeting besides Ms. Greene, Ms. Marco, and you?
19 THE WITNESS:
And another attorney.
20 MR. JACOBI:
But nobody else --
21 THE WITNESS:
No.
22 MR. JACOBI:
-- from New Mexico?
23 THE WITNESS:
No.
24 MR. JACOBI:
Thank you.
25 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
~
1 17 1
Q And what was discussed during the meeting?
2 A
Quite a number of things.
That I needed to 3
request the officers of New Mexico, the corporation, IWI, 4
to submit an amendment to the application or to the license 5
because they informed me that the license was very narrow; 6
and that in order to compete with Trijicon and Meprolight 7
and their licenses, there would have to be an amendment to 8
the license.
9 Q
Did they specify what they meant by very narrow?
10 A
She give me one or two --
11 MR. JACOBI:
She who?
12 THE WITNESS:
Susan Greene give me several l
13 examples of the various sights that we could probably 14 manufacture, and that they were limited, and that we needed 15 to go to -- when we say "we,"
the company needed to submit 16 a license and specify instead of sight names, to go to 17 minimum and maximum tolerances.
18 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q
The NRC license names nine different removal 20 sights manufactured by the licensee, which is IWI.
1 l
l 21 Did you and any of the individuals during this 22 meeting discuss these sights that were listed on the 23 license?
24 A
No.
25 Q
You did not discuss what meaning this list had NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 i
18 1
regarding IWI's ability to distribute sights?
2 A
We did not go through the Jicense indicating the 3
various sights, the types of sights.
They spent most and 4
considerable time on quality control and the procedures of 5
quality control.
6 o
was there any additional discussion as to what 7
IWI was allowed to distribute under the NRC license?
8 A
I was informed in that meeting that if I would 9
relate to Dave Gregor several facts, that he could amend 10 the license and it would be a broad license.
11 Q
Do you recall what those facts were?
i 12 A
It had to do with quality control, it had to do 13 with minimum and maximum tolerances, it had to do with 14 instead of the license saying steel, that it could say any
)
15 substance, plastic, get very general.
I was told that the 16 various colors were not an issue, just that the series 17 needed to be with minimum and maximum tolerances.
18 Q
Was there any discussion as to what specifically 19 IWI could distribute until the license was amended?
You 20 said that she stated it was narrow, a narrow license.
21 A
I think the statement was that we could operate 22 and send in this amendment application to them and they 23 would get right on it, that they'd had this file on their 24 desk for two years and they wanted to get rid of it and 25 they'd work real close with us or with IWI to get the NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
19 1
license amended.
2 Q
Okay.
But what about -- what could you sell in 3
the meantime before the license was amended?
4 A
I'm not even sure what we could sell today, so I i
5 don't think it was discussed.
I 6
Q Well, it would be the same thing because IWI is 7
still operating under this license.
8 A
Okay.
9 Q
So that it was not discussed?
10 A
No.
11 O
Other than that it was narrow and --
12 A
As I said, they discussed that we needed to go, 4
13 instead of specific sights -- and we didn't name the 14 sights, the brand name, like Smith & Wesson, like you 4
l 15 named.
They said instead of naming certain sights, they 1
16 needed to go strictly to three things.
17 One, minimum and maximum tolerances.
They needed 18 to be broad in the type of substance that the tritium would 19 be inserted, whether it be steel, plastic, any other 20 substance, as long as the minimum and maximum tolerances 21 were approved by their review board.
And that the colors 22 didn't matter.
They wanted to go to a bar, double bar, 23 triple bar, two dot, one dot, and those would be the 24 series.
That's what was discussed.
25 0
You've stated three things that you brought back NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
20 1
to Mr. Gregor.
i 2
Was there any discussion with Mr. Gregor about 3
the license being narrow, that Susar, Ms. Greene, had said 4
the license was narrow?
5 A
Well, I never -- what I said is, if you want my 6
exact statement, "I think that Barry designed this license 7
or typed up an application without the help of a consultant 8
or anybody that knew what they were doing and the license 9
had to be amended," and that Mr. Gregor needed to figure i
10 out the maximum and minimum tolerances of each sight and 11 resubmit it to Susan Greene and the license would be i
l 1
12 amended.
13 Q
Did you have any further meetings with anyone I
t i
14 from the NRC?
l 15 A
Not that I'm aware of.
16 Q
You met with me.
17 A
Oh, okay.
I'm sorry.
Yes, I met with you.
18 Q
In June of this year.
So other than meeting with l
19 me --
l 20 A
Yes.
l 21 Q
-- have you had any other meetings with any NRC 22 representatives?
23 A
No.
24 Q
Have you had any conversations with any NRC 25 representatives again excepting myself in June?
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
21 1
A No.
I called Katherine Marco once, but that was 2
to get an address, is what the conversation was.
3 0
Was there any reason why you went to NRC rather 4
than Mr. Gregor as the president of IWI?
5 A
I had to be in Washington, D.C.
for other 6
matters, and since I was going to be there, I thought that 7
I could go in and meet the people.
8 Q
How would you characterize your involvement with 9
the NRC and the NRC regulations after that meeting?
10 Minimal?
11 A
Very minimal.
In fact, I took your advice and 12 hired a consultant.
13 O
I don't know if that was my advice.
14 A
Oh, okay.
1E Q
I remember you asking me.
I put you in touch 16 with Susan Greene.
17 Are you aware of the source of the tritium 18 inserts that are named on the materials license from the 19 NRC?
20 A
I don't understand the question.
21 Q
The source of the tritium inserts, the little --
22 A
Yeah, I understand what those are.
Are you 23 saying where they come from?
24 Q
That's right.
25 A
Yes.
From Canada.
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 l
22 1
O Okay.
And was that your understanding that that 2
was what was on the NRC license?
1 3
A Oh, absolutely.
i 4
0 It is my understanding that at some point in 5
time, IWI determined to locate another source of tritium.
6 Do you know is that correct?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
Did you have any involvement in that decision?
9 A
I consulted with them that the following needed 10 to happen, that they needed to find another source of 11 tritium.
12 Q
Why did you advise them of that?
13 A
Because Brian Pullen approached me.
14 Q
And Brian Pullen is?
15 A
With Saunders-Roe in Canada.
16 Q
Okay.
17 A
And told me, in essence, that he was going to put 18 IWI out of business.
19 Q
How was he going to do that?
Did he specify 20 that?
21 A
Yes.
Number one, that he was going to go into 22 competition and make night sights, and that he had a 23 license with the NRC, and that he was going to distribute 24 these sights throughout the world.
25 In addition to that, he had the best of both NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
23 1
worlds.
One, he could sell lights to IWI and two, he would 2
be in competition with them, and he laughed and thought it 3
was quite funny.
4 Q
Do you remember approximately when that was?
5 A
January of 1995.
6 o
Under what circumstances did you discuss that?
7 A
He was at the SHOT show where I was at the SHOT 8
show, and he seeked my person out and had this discussion 1
9 with me.
He's involved with SRB Technologies.
Apparently 10 he's the president, vice president.
He runs it.
I'm not 11 sure of his title.
j 12 Q
And that was the source of tritium for IWI?
13 A
Yes, it was.
14 Q
Following that conversation, did you take any 15 action?
16 A
Did I *ake any action?
17 0
Yes.
18 A
No.
There happened to be a couple gentlemen I 19 met that were from South Africa that said they would be 20 interested in supplying IWI with their tritium.
21-Q And who were they?
l 22 A
I don't remember their names.
l 23 Q
Do you remember the names of the companies?
i l
l 24 A
Lumitech.
\\
25 Q
Was it one company or two companies?
i NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
I 24 1
A Well, I talked to the people from Lumitech, and I 2
believe his name was George.
3 Q
And that was a South African company?
4 A
Yes.
5 Q
After you spoke with them, you said that you had 6
advised IWI that they needed to find another source.
7 Did you suggest the South African source to IWI?
8 A
I told them it was a possibility.
I didn't just 9
narrow them.
I said there may be tritium in Russia and the 10 other country.
Well, there's another country that was 11 supplyir~ tritium the way Canada was and I said they ought 12 to seek all three of them out.
13 I even suggested to Mr. Gregor that he may call 14 some places in the United States that had stockpiles of i
15 tritium and see if they processed it the way Canada did.
16 O
When did IWI become involved with the company in 17 South Afr.ca?
18 MR. JACOBI:
I'm not sure I understand what the 19 word " involved" means.
20 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
21 Q
When did they enter into discussions directly 22 with the company in South Africa?
l 23 A
I think Dave entered into discussions in January.
24 Q
Was *his during this same --
i 25 A
Same year,
'95.
NEAL R.
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4 25 1
0
-- SHOT show?
)
i 2
A Yes.
Interest on both parts were displayed at 3
that time, and I think in March of '95 -- I'm not sure of 4
the dates, so I won't testify to that.
Sometime in '95, 5
Mr. Gregor made a trip to South Africa to meet with 6
Lumitech.
7 Specifications and samples of the way Canada 8
processed the tritium, I think, were discussed; that the 9
tritium would be processed the same as it was in Canada.
10 If I understood right, Lumitech was similar as the Atomic 11 Energy Corp. here, so I figured that they knew wha
- they 12 were doing.
That's all I had to do with the discussions.
13 Q
Then did you have any discussions with them as 14 far as actually purchasing the tritium?
15 A
No.
16 Q
Did you have any further discussions with anyone 17 from Lumitech after that SHOT show in January of 1995?
18 A
I met a gentleman that come into Albuquerque 19 sometime in June.
I met with him for a cup of coffee and a 20 cigarette and some pleasantries.
That was about it.
21 Q
Did you have any discussions about purchasing --
22 A
No.
23 0
-- tritium from Lumitech?
24 What about Ramrod?
I understand that they're a 25 distributor or a supplier for Lumitech.
Are you familiar NEAL R.
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INC.
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26 i
1 with them?
2 A
I know the name Ramrod.
3 O
Have you spoken with any employees or 4
representatives from Ramrod?
5 A
There was a gentleman here from Ramrod and I
)
6 don't remember his name.
I met him.
Bought a knife from 7
him.
8 O
Did you have a discussion about tritium with him?
9 A
No.
t 10 0
If you know, who in IWI handled the purchase of i
11 tritium --
12 A
Who?
13 Q
-- from Lumitech?
2 14 MR. JACOBI:
Do you know?
2 15 THE WITNESS:
No, I don't know.
1 16 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
i t
17 Q
You do not know?
18 A
No.
4 19 Q
Do you know when IWI first received tritium --
I 20 A
No.
21 Q
-- from Lumitech or Ramrod?
22 A
No.
23 o
Do you know how much they have received?
24 A
No.
25 Q
Do you know how many shipments they've received?
NEAL R.
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A No.
2 Q
Were you aware that IWI's New Mexico possessi.'.
3 license onl'y authorized tritium from SRB Technologies?
4 A
No, I did not.
5 MR. JACOBI:
Would you repeat that question?
I'm 6
not sure I understood.
I'm sure he did, but I didn't.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
I was asking Mr. Wilson if he 8
was aware that IWI's New Mexico possession license -- they 9
have a license to possess the tritium and NRC licenses the 10 distribution.
11 MR. JACOBI:
As long as I didn't mishear New 12 Mexico.
Now I understand.
13 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Okay.
14 THE WITNESS:
The only involvement I had with 15 this was I had advised Mr. Gregor and Ms. Wilson that they 16 submit an application to New Mexico to switch tritium i
17 carriers, if they were going to switch.
18 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
19 Q
Then if you advised them that, you must have 20 known --
21 A
Well, it's on the license.
22 O
Well, this is the NRC license.
You've already 23 said that you knew it was on the NRC license.
24 A
Okay.
I know it's on the New Mexico license.
25 C
Okay.
Did you personally take any steps to NEAL R.
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28 1
change the New Mexico license other than what you just 2
stated, mentioning to Mr. Gregor and to Ms. Wilson that 3
they might want to do that?
4 A
I don't know what you mean by steps.
I didn't 5
type it up, I didn't 6
Q Did you sign anything?
7 A
No.
8 Q
Did you call the State of New Mexico to ask what 9
needed to be done to change that?
10 A
I did call the man from New Mexico and hi.s name 11 is the one on the license back there.
12 o
And what did you discuss with him?
13 A
What needed to be done.
14 Q
Do you recall when that was?
15 A
April sometime.
16 Q
That's of this year, 1995?
17 A
Yes.
18 Q
Do you recall what he told you needed to be done?
19 A
Submit an application that he faxed to us.
20 Q
And was that when you spoke with Ms. Wilson and 21 Mr. Gregor?
22 A
I don't know the exact date that I spoke to them, 23 but it was in that time period.
24 Q
Did IWI, to your knowledge, ever receive an 25 amended license from the State of New Mexico?
I NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 i
l..
i 29 1
A Yes.
2 O
Do you know when that was?
3 A
No.
4 Q
Do you know if it was relatively recent?
5 A
No, I don't know when it was.
I remember seeing 6
the license and it had South African tritium on it and it's i
7 posted on the bulletin board back there.
8 MR. JACOBI:
Can I interrupt al.. ask him a 9
question?
I know it's your record, but I have an obnoxious 10 New York habit of thinking that a record is clearer if j
11 questions that I would normally ask rehabilitation-wise 12 later ceuld come in here.
Would it bother you if I did 13 that?
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Well, as long as it's kept to a l
15 minimum.
16 MR. JACOBI:
It's a single question.
I think it l
17 falls cleanly into where you have been for the last 15 j
18 minutes.
i 19 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
All right.
20 MR. JACOBI:
Mr. Wilson, considering that you 21 have prior testified that you are a financial consultant, 22 for the last ten minutes or so, you have been discussing 23 why you advised -- that you advised Ms. Wilson and Mr..
24 Gregor about expanding their tritium sou ;es to South 25 Africa or somewhere else, that doesn't sound like financial r
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 l
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30 1
consultancy unless I misunderstand.
i 2
THE WITNESS:
I think you do misunderstand.
3 MR. JACOBI.
Perhaps you could explain.
4 THE WITNESS:
Since I am concerned about the 5
financial state of IWI and its shareholders, and 6
shareholders were investing a considerable amount of money 7
into this corporation, and I was just told by their sole j
8 tritium, raw tritium source that, in essence, he was going 9
to put IWI out of business, financially, I was concerned 10 and I advised them they needed to get new tritium sources.
11 The Security and Exchange, in some of their 12 applications that they submit to broker-dealers, one of the 13 questions in the form is, "Is the company in any way 14 dependent upon a sole source for its raw materials."
I was 15 quite concerned that that answer was going to have to be 16 yes, and questionable at best.
17 MR. JACOBI:
Thank you.
Thank you for letting me 18 ask it.
19 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
All right.
I'll take a minute 20 to figure out where I was with my thoughts here.
21 MR. JACOBI:
You had just been asking him about 22 contact that he had made with New Mexico and what he had 23 done, had he spoken to anybody.
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Right.
25 MR. JACOBI:
He had responded that he spoke to a NEAL R.
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(202) 234-4433
~
31 1
man and an application had been faxed in here and that's l
2 when I was indiscreet enough to interrupt you and you were 3
nice and polite.
4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
5 0
If I recall, you said you did not know when the 6
license was amended; is that correct?
7 A
I don't know.
8 J
Do you know if any steps were taken by IWI to 9
amend the NRC license?
10 A
I've seen a memorandum laying around to a Bruce 11 Casner and I believe that was addressing that ir ue.
I 12 don't know when or how they attempted to do that.
13 Q
So you don't know when this might have been 14 brought up.
15 Did you have any discussions --
16 A
No.
17 0
-- with anyone at the NRC, such as during that 18 meeting that you attended, about purchasing from another 19 source besides SRB Technologies?
20 A
No.
21 Q
Do you know whether or not IWI has sold any night 22 sights with tritium inserts received from South Africa?
23 A
Personally I do not know that.
24 Q
Do you have any input as a consultant as to what 25 inserts they might use?
NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC'.
(202) 234-4433
32 i
MR. JACOBI:
You mean the source of the inserts?
2 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Yes.
3 THE WITNESS:
No.
4 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
5 Q
Did you ever recommend to Mr. Gregor or Ms.
6 Wilson or tell them that they could use South African 7
tritium inserts in their night sights?
l 8
A No.
i 9
Q I spoke with Dale Kreisman, who is with Miniature 10 Machine Corporation, and he said that you had mentioned to 1
1 11 him that IWI had some additional permitting to do before l
12 you coula accept tritium from South Africa, and that was in 13 approximately March or April of 1995.
i l
14 What did you mean by additional permitting?
l 15 A
I don't remember that conversation.
16 Q
You den't remember that conversation?
17 A
No.
l I
18 Q
All right.
Do you recall discussing tritium, l
19 receiving tritium from South Africa with Mr. Kreisman?
20 A
I discusced with Dale, in March or April, the 21 possibility of the two companies doing business.
He had 22 advised me that he had researched and was determining 23 whether or not they would seek a license from the NRC to do 24 the same thing.
i 25 MR. JACOBI:
Same thing as?
)
NEAL R.
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INC.
(202) 234-4433 i
)
1
33 1
THE WITNESE:
IWI did.
He asked what the 2
possibility of the supply of tritium would be.
I had 3
advised him that at the same SHOT show that I met Brian 4
Pullen, I met Mr. Dale Kreisman, and there was a 5
conversation about Brian Pullen's attitude.
6 That was his concern of whether or not we would 7
continue to do business with Canada.
I don't remember 8
advising him that -- anything about the license.
I just 9
said that there were some steps that the company, I think, 10 were going to take and I don't know if they had determined 11 to use South Africa or Russia and they were lookir.; at 12 possible sites tne U.S.
to buy tritium from.
13 He asked me the availability of tritium in the 14 United States and internationally, and at that point, I 15 could barely spell tritium, and I advised him I didn't know 16 what stockpiles were in the U.S.
or outside of the U.S.
17 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
18 O
When you were discussing this issue with Mr.
19 Kreisman, was that also to see if IWI could sell the 20 inserts?
I guess I'm kind of confused.
21 How did you get involved with MMC and Mr.
22 Kreisman?
23 A
I was in Dallas on some financial matters and Mr.
24 Kreasman or Keisman, or however you say his name, called me 25 at the Clarion Hotel and asked if he could have dinner with NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
. _. ~..
34 1
me.
2 He asked me about the financial state of IWI and 3
the possibility of them staying in business, what I thought 1
4 would happen to IWI, and what did I think about the 5
availability of tritium.
That's how it started.
l 6
o Had IWI been in any type of negotiations with him
(
7 or with MMC to sell sights or inserts to them, do you know?
8 A
I do not have that knowledge.
9 Q
How did he know that you were in Dallas, do you 10 know?
l 11 A
Fo, I do not know.
I assumed that he called here I
12 and they tol.d him I was at the Clarion.
13 Q
Had --
14 A
I don't know.
15 O
Had you had any discussions with him between the 16 SHOT show, where you said you initially met him, and this 17 time in March or April of 1995?
18 A
No.
19 Q
No?
20 A
No.
21 Q
Are you familiar with IWI sales to MMC?
22 A
No.
23 Q
Do you know if they have even sold anything to 24 MMC?
25 A
I do know they have.
NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
35 l
1 Q
Do you know what they have sold to MMC?
3 2
A No, I do not.
3 O
Do you know what MMC's product line is?
I 4
A No, I do not.
5 Q
Do you know what type of gun sight they sell?
6 A
I heard they sell a variety of gun sights, Glock, 7
Colt, Smith & Wesson.
8 Q
Are you familiar with any IWI customers?
Did you l
9 have any other dealings with any other IWI customers, 10 roughly, other than MMC?
11 A
Yes.
l l
12 O
And who would that be?
i 13 A
I do not remember the companies, but several of l
14 them were delinquent in p' ing bills and they asked me to 15 give them a call and see if they would pay their back l
16 invoices.
l 17 Q
Okay.
They asked you.
Who is they?
18 A
Either Dave or Patricia or Cliff Rounds.
19 O
And Cliff Rounds is?
j 20 A
He has resigned and gone, but he at the time was 21 in the accounting department.
22 O
What is IWI's status right now, do you know, as i
23 far as selling product?
Are they currently still in 1
1 24 business?
25 A
Barely.
NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
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36 1
0 Do you know what they're selling?
2 A
Not much, l
3 Q
Why not?
4 A
I think you'll have to ask Dave Gregor that.
I 5
don't know.
I just know that they're not selling much.
6 O
Do you have any idea how much product IWI has 7
sold in the last year as far as how many night sights they 8
may have sold?
9 A
In the last year?
10 Q
Yes.
I believe you said that was really when Mr.
11 Mowry left.
12 MR. JACOBI:
You mean the number of night sights?
13 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Yes.
14 THE WITNESS:
No.
15 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
16 Q
You don't know?
17 A
I can give you a dollar amount, but I don't know le how much.
19 Q
I was asking about the number, not the dollar 20 amount.
21 A
I deal in dellars.
22 O
All right.
23 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
I don't have anything right now.
24 Dennis, did you have some questions?
l 25 MR. BOAL:
Sure.
NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
37 1
BY MR. BOAL:
'4 2
O Mr. Wilson, what is your association with the 3
First National Holding Company in Nevada?
4 A
Consultant.
i 5
MR. JACOBI:
Is there still a First National l
6 Holding Company in Nevada?
7 THE WITNESS:
Well, it's a different name, but 8
it's the same corporation.
9 MR. JACOBI:
It's not known as First National l
10 Holding anymore?
11 THE WITNESS:
No.
12 BY MR. BOAL:
l 13 0
What is its name now?
14 A
Well, it was changed to Innovative Weaponry of 15 Nevada, 21st Century Technologies.
16 O
Do you know who the owners of that corporation 17 are?
18 MR. JACOBI:
This is the public corporation?
19 What do you mean by owned by?
20 MR. BOAL:
The officers of the corporation.
21 THE WITNESS:
David Gregor and Patricia Wilson, 22 Richard Bates.
Fred Rausch is a director, along with the 23 other people that I mentioned.
24 BY MR. BOAL:
25 O
Do you know how 21st Century Technologies NEAL R.
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INC.
(202) 234-4433
38 1
interfaces with IWI?
I'm sorry.
It's IWI of Nevada now, 2
right?
l 3
A No.
The name is 21st Century Technologies today.
i l
4 0
Okay.
How is it related to IWI?
5 A
It's a shareholder.
6 MR. JACOBI:
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Do you understand 7
the legal implication of the question?
j 8
THE WITNESS:
No.
I don't understand the l
9 question, so I guess I shouldn't have answered.
10 MR. JACOBI:
I'm not trying to limit his answer.
I j
11 I'm not sure he's an attorney who understands the l
12 relationship or if he does, perhaps the question should be 13 rephrased and he can give you a more substantive answer.
14 Do you know what the relationship is between these two 15 companies, IWI of New Mexico and 21st Century?
What's the l
16 relationship of one to the other?
17 THE WITNESS:
One owns the other one.
18 MR. JACOBI:
So IWI -- is one a wholly-owned sub 19 of the other?
20 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
21 MR. JACOBI:
Which one is the owner of the 22 wholly-owned sub?
23 THE WITNESS:
21st Century.
f 24 MR. JACOBI:
So it's the only shareholder?
1
~
25 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
4 NEAL R. GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433
39 1
MR. BOAL:
I don't have any more questions.
2 MS. VAN CLEAVE:
Mr. Wilson, I don't have any i
l 3
other questions right now, but I do have three questions l
4 that we ask at the conclusion of every interview.
5 BY MR. BOAL:
l 6
Q Mr. Wilson, have I or Mr. Boal threatened you in 7
any manner or offered you any rewards in return for your 8
statement?
I 9
A No, ma'am.
10 Q
Have you given the statement freely and 11 voluntarily?
i 12 A
Yes.
l 13 0
Is there anything further you care to add for the i
14 record?
)
l 15 A
No.
16 MR. JACOBI:
We care to make no statements at 4
1 17 this poin_, nor do I have any rehabilitating questions.
18 MS, VAN CLEAVE:
Thank you very much.
We'll go 1
r l
19 off the record now.
t 1
1
[
NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433 l
REPORTER'S CER'lIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Innovative Weaponry, Inc.
INTERVIEW OF KENNETH E.
WILSON at Albuquerque, New Mexico, were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
Court Reporter NEAL R.
GROSS & CO.,
INC.
(202) 234-4433