ML20127P518
| ML20127P518 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palo Verde  |
| Issue date: | 06/29/1982 |
| From: | Nunez H AFFILIATION NOT ASSIGNED |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML17215B062 | List:
|
| References | |
| FOIA-83-161, FOIA-83-A-9 5-82-009, 5-82-9, NUDOCS 8505240013 | |
| Download: ML20127P518 (63) | |
Text
r VAUGHN INDEX t 42 APPEAL APPENDIX 4 340 JUN 2 S E82 INTERVIEW OF NUNEZ Case No.: '.5-82-009 Hector R. NUNEZ Transcript of tape recorded interview of:.
General Foreman-Electrical Bechtel Power Corporation Date of Interview:
June 29, 1982 Interviewers:
Eugene J. POWER and Owen C. SHACKLETON Jr.,
Investigators, NRC Purpose of. Interview:
To obtain NUNEZ's responses to allegations made by Robert D. GUNDERSON Jr., Electrician, who formerly worked from April 1980.to March 1982 on Unit 1, PVNGS, in one of the electrical termination crews under NUNEZ's supervision.
-Location of Interview:
NRC Resident Inspector's Office, Construction Building, PVNGS
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Conditions of Interview:
Interview was conducted with NUNEZ under.
oath.
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INTERVIEW OF NUNEZ SHACKLETON:
... interview of Mr. Hector NUNEZ, first name is spelled "H" as in " Henry", E-C-T-0-R, no middle initial, and the last name is spelled "N" as in " Nancy", "U",as in," uncle",
"N" as in " Nancy", "E" as in " easy", "Z" as in " sabra."
Mr. NUNEZ is a General Foreman for the Bechtel Power Corporation in the electrical field presently assigned to the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station in Arizona.
Present to conduct this interview from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission is Mr. E. J. POWER and myself.
Owen C. SHACKLETON. Mr. POWER and myself are investigators for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission assigned'to Region V in Walnut Creek, California. This interview began at 8:30 a.m. on June 29, 1982, at which time I advised Mr. NUNEZ that his appearance here was voluntary and he could leave at any time. Mr. NUNEZ agreed to conduct this interview and was placed under oath by me.
I advised Mr. NUNEZ of the laws that are applicable for a person testifying under oath. Mr. NUNEZ, a
do I ha've your permissign to tape record this interview?
NUNEZ:'
Tes, sir.
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SHACKLETON:
And also, Mr. NUNEZ, you requested a copy of the transcript of this interview, is that correct?-
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
SHACKLETON:
I will see that the Commission provides to you a copy of s
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the transcript which will be typewritten in our offi:e and then mailed directly to your home. And now we will begin the interview. Gene, do you want to start, please?
NUNEZ:
Excuse me...
SEACKLETON:
Uh-huh?
NUKEZ:
... an initial, I do.have a...
SHACKLETON:
Oh, you do have an initial?
0.K.
We got it off the payroll and it showed no middle initial.
NUNEZ:
"R".
SHACKLETON:
Middle initial is "R".
Thank you.
I POWER:
0.K.
What are the procedural requirements for preparing termination cards here'on the site?
NUNEZ:
Would you repeat that again, sir?
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POWER:
Yeah.
What are your procedural requirements? Do you have a written pro.edure' for preparing termination cards?
NUNEZ:
I don't prepare the cards, it says...
l POWER:
No, what I meant... Bechtel does.
l NUNEZ:
Yeah, there is a procedure that... at this time I am not l
familiar with the work line procedure that they have.
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3 POWER:
Do you get involved with the termination cards?
NUNEZ: -
Yes, sir I do.
Only from the standpoint of terminating the conductors.
POWER:
What does this involvement entail? What part do you play.
in this operation? You know, the termination card when it comes out of this computerized system through engineering to yourself and...
NUNEZ:
It comes to me, to the superintendent, Reggie JOHNSON. At that time, we read the card as to the location, equipment, cable number, termination numbers and proceed as instructed in the card.
POWER:
0.K.
And you disseminate that to various foremen under you?
~TUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
POWER:
How many, how many foremen do you have?
s NUNEZ:
At this time, I have three foremen.
POWER:
How many, how many did you have, say, six months ago?
NUNEZ:
Possibly six foremen, I believe.
l POWER:
Had a reduction?
l NUNEZ:
A reduction in force.
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i-4 POWER:
Uh... On Unit 1, what would be your estimate of the number of termination cards prepared? Any idea?
NUNEZ:
No idea.
. POWER:
Several thousand?
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir. In the thousands.
POWER:
What happens when-there is either,a lost, misplaced, damaged, or otherwise unavailable termination card? Have you ever been faced with that problem?
NUNEZ:
The only area that I am aware of at this time that I recollect is that a tool box was stolen in the field, or possibly removed from the work area of the electrician.
There was a few cards in it, possibly six. I am not sure of the number but... and that's the only ones that I know of that have been actually lost'in the field.
Engineering has come back to Reggie JOHNSON saying that the cards are not available in the cabinets I guess that they have, whatever system they use, and they. issue out a new card to reterminate.
POWER:
That's not a normal recurring basis when they come back to engineering?
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NUNEZ:
Would you repeat that again?
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~ POWER:
Yeah.
Is that just that one instance or is that a normal requirement or a normal commitment where engineering comes
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l to Reggie JOHNSON and says we have some...
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5 NUNEZ:
I was speaking of a particular case that I knew of the tool box that had been misplaced or...
POWER:
When, when did that occur? Do you recall? Roughly?
NUNEZ:
You could probably find out through the....
i POWER:
A year ago? Six months ago?
NUNEZ:
I would say roughly a year aso. And those cards were
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reissued through engineering for retermination. The cards had not been terminated yet.
POWER:
- Allright. That was.before the fact, then? If the card
.. if you issued the cards to subordinate foremen and then, of course, they their crews, how do they come back? From the original electrician? Can'you reverse the process and tell me how they get back through you?
2 NUNEZ:
As I said before, the cards are issued to me...
i POWER:
Right.
4 NUNEZ:
... through supervision, uh, I assign the cards to a-different foreman, either by the billing or the work areas and we go together and look the situation over in most cases, uh, what's required, what's necessary to do the job, uh, he in turn gives to the wireman and explains to him wha.tever conversation we might have had on it and the wireman goes out in the field and tries to terminate it to the best of his ability, to the design of the card, any probleis he will either flag it or log it into'the side of the card, come back in explaining to the foreman when he w
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6 cannot do'that particular termination, and the foreman brings it to me and we try to resolve it in the field the best we can, uh, sometimes it might meaniequipment or scaffolding in-the way that nee'ds to be removed; it doesn't have to be an engineering problem. Other times, we have to go through engineering and define terminal n
points and give us a better location as to where the indication of the card is in reference to the termination.
POWER:
0.K.
And as either the work is completed or its disposition, what happens to the completed termination card?
. NUNEZ:.
As the work is completed, the wireman brings it to the foreman, the foreman logs it in a notebook that we've more or less made our own logging system. He uses a pink color for a problem card, a green color for a completed card, without any problems. That goes back into Reggie JOHNSON.
He goes back into the system bac'k to engineering.. Where it goes from there, I don't know.
POWER:
How long have you been utilizing this, I understand a book
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NUNEZ:
Almost since the day that it started...
POWER:
Oh.
f NUNEZ:
We started finding out that we were having to trace our work and had no way of really. finding out who did it...
s POWER:
Yeah /
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... or, so we determined that it would be a problem in the future, so we decided to have some means of keeping track...
POWER:
But, yeah. Other than that one instance that you related, let's say approximately a year ago, or whatever, has there been any other situations where engineering has prepared or made duplicate cards and sent them to the field for whatever reason, for... to show that the documentation
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gets back into their computerized system?
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir. They have.
POWER:
What circumstances,. then?
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NUNEZ:
Uh, they found it determinated or that somebody other than our effort, either they claimed it was a lost card or.
a misplaced card...
POWER:
Yeah... what happens in a situation like that? There's a lost or misplaced card'for wo:.k previously completed?
NUNEZ:
I issue the work back out to the foreman.
POWER:
0.K.
And you get the cards again from engineering?
4 NUNEZ:
Uh-huh.
POWER:
From Reggie to you?
NUNEZ:
Right.
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NUNEZ:
... and back up to the foreman.
I instruct the foreman to have a wireman go out and look the situation over, to see if we can analyze why it is it has to be reworked, whether it's fault of the wireman or fault of engineering or whatever, and the cases that has to be resigned or documented by the wireman, he's supposed to cut the lugs off that are terminated, re-lug it, enter his new tool number in it, date it, and cut basically a new card, a new termination system.
POWER:
A new termination.
Other than those situations where it's reworked, and. I'm not interested in those, I'm primarily interested...
FUNEZ:
I didn't hear that, sir.
POWER:
I'm not interested in the re-work ones.
I'm interested in those where the work was satisfactorily completed on
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primarily class Q cable, now. Have you ever had a situation where the individual vent out and determined that it's already been terminated properly. Then, then i
what happens? Then the, wireman goes out and looks at it?
NUNEZ:
They're supposed to reterminate the wire.
POWER:
They're supposed to?
NUNEZ:
They're supposed to reterminate wire.
POWER:
Is that in writing?
- 1:UNEZ:
No, the instructions go from me through the foreman to reterminate the wire.
'J.,
9 POWER:
Orally?
NUNEZ:'
Yes, sir.
POWER:
In all cases?
NUNEZ:
I would say that in all cases, yes. Because it must
'have been misinterpretation between me and the. foreman back to the wireman that they're supposed to look at it, reterminate, use new lugs...
POWER:
Are there any, uh, written instructions or procedures as to what a wireman or electrician can do in these situations for these lost / misplaced cards?
NUNEZ:
Not to my knowledge.
POWER:
Not to mine either.
I just want to make sure we don't misunderstand the situation.
(Pause)
What instructions
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do you receive when you get the cards from Reggie JOHNSON on... in such instances when they are lost or misplaced?
What does Reggie say to you?
NUNEZ:
He...
POWER:
Does he give you any specific instructions relative to lost / misplaced cards?
NUNEZ:
To go. check this card out and reterminate it.
POWER:
Is that what he generally says...
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10 NUNEZ:
That's what he generally says. He says that it's been lost.
Go find out what happened to it... you know...
POMER:
Have there been any situations in.which you have directly given instructions to a foreman or an electrician to comp 1'ete the card without looking at the work?
NUNEZ:
Complete a card without looking at it?
POWER:
Right.
In other words, sign a new. termination card and give it back to the foremen or yourself and go back into the system.
NUNEZ:
I can't recall that ever... I've always asked them to look the work over.
POWER:
You can't recall.
~KUNEZ:
No.
POWER:
'Cause we have testimony,to the effect that you have, in fact, made those statements to electricians that you weren't really interested in them looking at the work.
They wanted a card signed an,d forget about looking at it.
Have there been any situations where an electrician could infer from your conversation that that's what you wanted?
NUNEZ:-
Possibly it may have been his work that he had done within a few days or whatever...
4 POWER:
No.
I'm not referring... I'm talking about work that he didn't initially do.
You know, for forecen I mean if an individual goes back out and looks at his own work, O
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11 that doesn't give me heartburn at all. That, that's like did you paint this wall? And you come back tomorrow and you say yeah, that's the same wall I painted.
I'm not worried abou't that situation.
I'm talking about a situation where the electrician did not do the initial work.and has been asked to sign a termination card'for work that he did not complete.
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
POWER:
Have there ever been any situations...
NUNEZ:
Not that I can recall at this time, sir.
SEACKLETON:
We have...
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NUNEZ:
We usually try to get the work to the best of the logging system we have is, is reasonably traceable to the individual that originally did the work unless he's not here, he has been terminated.
POWER:
How, how frequently do you receive. lost or misplaced...
how frequently do you receive new cards for lost or misplaced termination cards? How often does it occur?
NUNEZ:
It isn't very of ten.
I...
POWER:
How many in a week would you estimate? As an average?
NUNEZ:
We go. weeks without anything at all.
POWER:
Two at the most? Say five a month? How many in the last year have you... your estimate, really?
6
12 NUNEZ:
I, I have no positive knowledge to this fact...
POWER:
0.K.
Would you say 50 in the last year?
I'm just trying to get a figure for a problem if a problem exists, and I'm very much interested in what you believe to be the total aroun't that NUNEZ:
Fifty is way too.high, I believe.
POWER:
Way to high? Under 50 then?
9 NUNEZ:
I think that POWER:
More than 10 but less than 40?
NUNEZ:
Strictly as a guess I say in that range.
POWER:
Can you put it any closer? The reason I am asking for a guess, we have other individuals that are making allegations and they are giving us certain figures s'nd I'm just trying to make a determination of how many cards that are going back through this system, and we're really attempting to make an evaluation of a technical problem that NUNEZ:
I understand.
POWER:
... electrical engineer.
I'm not trying to tie you down to 31, and then say ch, we found 32. That's not the point at all.
I'm trying to get an. understanding of the situation.
/
NUNEZ:
I think less (unintelligible) 10 to 40.
(i c-13 POWER:
Ten to 407 Then over the last couple of years, you wouldn't expect more than a hundred cards?
NUNEZ:
As a loss, re-work, duplicate?
POWER:
Yeah, yeah.
NUNEZ:
I would say upper 30.
POWER:
That would be high side?
NUNEZ:
Plus or minus.
SRACKLETON:
See, Hector. The Safety Licensing Board, they want to
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know how big the problem is, and that's what we're trying to narrow down.
In this case, as I understand it, uh, Reggie JOHNSON is the first person to receive notification -
or get a new card to replace a card that is lost...
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
i SRACKLETON:
... and then because you're the number 1 man, he gives it to you because the foremen all report.to you.
NUNEZ:
Right.
And then I issue it to the foreman with the instructions and usually we try to get it back to the particular individual that originally did the work and, in most cases, we can tell because the same cable number will be on the new card...
POWER:
Yeah.
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0 14 NUNEZ:
... traceable to the notebook that he have out there and we, and...
POWER:
Who,whoreviewsthahbooktodetermineiftheindividual that initially performed the work is available and he i
wasn t terrinated or transferred or
...?
NUNEZ:
That's in the foremen's.shed.
I's, I'm... it's available to me and the foreman or anybody that POWER:
Yeah, but no', what I'm saying do, do the foremen actually go back to the book if they and up with some new cards
...?
NUNEZ:
Well, yeah.
I, I'm with him in most cases where we have a new card done.
POWER:
How can you identify new duplicate termination cards?
How do you know it's a new card?
NUNEZ:
I've been instructed in most cases that it's a duplicate card.
POWER:
0.K.
Then there's nothing on the card that identifies it as a duplicate.
NUNEZ:
There's nothing.
POWER:
When these go back to the foreman, have there been any situation... or the electrician... have there been any situation where you h' ave directly provided a card to an electrician to prepara a new termination card? Over, say, the fast six months? Without going through a foreman, you know, an electrician walks in, whichever, Jones or Smith, t
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and you hand him a new card and say I'd like you to fill out a new termination card. Have there been any situations like that?
NUNEZ:
One that is Icst, you mean?
POWER:
Yeah.'
Right. A duplicate, yeah, I'm talking about a lost / misplaced; the work is done and he is not the electrician that perforr.ed the work.
NUNEZ:
I cannot recall that incident ever happening.
POWER:
In the situation where the cards are, again, lost, misplaced or for whatever reason the termination card is prepared, in all cases what general reasons have you given either to the foreman or the electrician for a new card?
What do you tell them? I just want to make sure that no, misunderstanding... you just related it... I'm just "
asking you to repeat the same answer.
NUNEZ:
When the...
8 POWER:
Yeah, what reason do you give when you give them the duplicate cards? What.do you tell them to do?
NUNEZ:
The superintendent informs me that it is a lost card or... (unintelligible)
P0b'ER:
Right.
NUNEZ:
... and that's usually what I'tell the foreman.
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POWER:
0.K.
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16 NUNEZ:
We need to....
POWER:
To go out and look at the termination...
NUNEZ:
Teah.
POWER:
Are there any situations where an electrician, other than the one that performed the work, looked at the work, considered it good, and did not reterminate it, and just signed the card?.
NUNEZ:
I have no specific way of knowing that, actually because I'm not with him when he's terminating.
POWER:
No, I'm just trying to determine whether or not there have been any situations where you have gone with him or you made a comment after he came back, it looked ellright and I just signed :he card. We're getting other indications of individuals that are going out looking at
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cards... they're signing it because they say they're receiving these types of instructions.
That is what I'm interested in determining. Where are these instructions coming from?
NUNEZ:
When they.get a lost card
...?
POWER:
Correct.
... to go out in the field...
NUNEZ:
PG'a*ER:
Correct.
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17 NUNEZ:
... and usually the foreman will go with him, they look the termination over and everything, you know, that's it.
and they are instructed to re-lug it, look the work over, see what it looks like, you know, and if it's acceptable, he'll...
POWER:
0.K.
We've talked to a lot of electricians - not a lot, but a few, and of those we have discussed the problem with, and they're not saying it's a problem, per se when we get around to termination cards they are-of the understanding that they are not told to reterminate those situations in all cases. They've been told if it looks allright, go ahead and sign the card, and give it back to them.
NUNEZ:
And that's true.
POWER:
Who is telling you that?
NUNEZ:
That comes from, uh, the superintendent, to me, to the foremen, to the wireman.
POWER:
0.K.
And this is true for work that they previously didn't do.
They have been. instructed by you, to a foreman, to look at a termination and determine whether or not, in their professional capability, they consider an adequate and satisfactory installation that they can sign their name on that card for work that they did not complete?
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
s POWER:
0.K.
You have specifically told somebody to do that?
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s 18 NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
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. POWER:
'O.K.
That's what.Ihn interested in.
Do you find anything' wrong with that?
-NUNEZ:
At this time, I've been made aware that there would be something wrong.
POWER:
No, no.
I't's a good termination.
I'm not saying... is there,anything wrong with that type of procedure?
NUNEZ:
Not at this time...
POWER:
-0.K.
NUNEZ:
... cause I have not been...
POWER:
Do you receive this information..these general instructions, from Reggie JOHNSON 7 NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
POWER:
What do you do with.the crimping tool situations like that? You now have a termination, you're supposed to have an indication on that termination card for a crimping tool number so that it can be~ audited back in the event there is a problem, so, now what you're telling me, you have an individual that ends up putting his name, his crimping tool, 'cause he has to complete the card, on the new' card, for a termination that he did.not complete, is that
. correct?
s NUNEZ:
That's correct.
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So what would happen now if his crimping tool is found out of calibration? How are you going to back... how are you going to go back to determine whether or not that initial installation, which is valid? That's the part I'm gett'ing to.
That's the part that even though it may be a minor point, uh, it could present problems. Do you understand what I'm saying?
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NUNEZ:
I'd rather to have you repeat that one for me one more
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POWER:
0.K.
Let me look at it the other way around.
If we have to go to the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board and they
.say fine, since this individual now completed a card with a crimping tool number on there, which is not the one n
utilized on that piece of equipment.
Right?
s NUNEZ:
Right.
POWER:
What happens if that previous one was incorret, or.for some reason you have to go back to it, how can you determine what crimping. cool was then utilized on what termination?
NUNEZ:
In most cases we can trace...
POWER:
Yeah, but why didn't you trace it to begin with, then rather than sending somebody out? I know you can trace it NUNEZ:
and we have also a log for all our tools crimped and
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what fate they come out they are issued and everything.
We have our own log out there.
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20 POWER:
Then why don't you do that? Why don't you use a crimp tool that was originally done by another electrician on that job and make an annotation on the card that it was re-examined because the card was lost and the electrician looked at it and said, hey, it looks good to me.
Why don't you do something like that? Is there any reason why you don't?
NUNEZ:
It's never'been brought to my attention to do something like that.
POWER:
0.K.
Do you consider situations where an electrician
. signs a new card for work that he didn't do as
" falsification of records?" Do you personally consider it that?
NUNEZ:
For work that he didn't do?
-?OWER:
Right. He's been given a new duplicate card and he goes out and looks at the termination for work that he did not do, and he doesn't reterminate it and he just signs the card and gives it back to the foreman to you. Do you consider that situation a falsification of records?
NUNEZ:
Well, in most cases, you know, he would, you know, take the lug apart, take the screw apart, look the whole situation over...
POWER:
No, no.
I'm not talking about in most cases.
NUNEZ:
(Unintelligible)
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21 POWER:
Then, that, that's just a termination.
If he takes it all apart and puts.it back together again, that's no problem, right? That's just a termination.
NUNEZ:
He has to look at the wire (unintelligible).
an POWER:
Oh, no, no.
I'm assuming he's a competent electrician.
There's nothing wrong with the records if he takes it apart and puts it back together again.
Then he can use his crimping tool.and his signature. That doesn't bother the government at all.
But we're finding situations where electricians are not doing that. They're'looking at the work, they are executing the card, they are giving it back without determinating it.
Do you consider those situations falsification of records?
NUNEZ:
At the time it happened, I dcn't think it's (unintelligible)
POWER:
No, you may not have been aware' of...
I NUNEZ:
.I see where you get on t, hat now, t. hough, you know, but when this was going on, I didn't think that this would be a...
l' SRACKLETON:'
See, Hector. Like you say, you never worked on a nuclear j-ob before?
i NUNEZ:
No, sir.
SHACKLETON:
One of the biggest, one of the biggest problems that all construction people face on a nuclear job is the audit trail < What I a= talking about is the paper records because our Commission demands that there be an audit
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22 trail on all safety-related equipment.
And what va have here, without any shadow of a doubt, after several weeks of interviewing electricians, we've got records out there and only God knows, a~t this time, how many that aren't right. They show a man's signature that he did the
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termination, his badge number and _his crimping tool, but it isn't his crimping tool ':bi many cases. Now, it may...
it's a, it's a minor point, you know that as a professional electrician.
We know that, from testimony, a lot of these men have looked at the terminations and checked it, and it looks to be professionally done and then they've signed'it off.
So, that safety aspect of
- whether or not the cable is installed properly is probably resolved..it is 0.K.,
but the records are not correct.
'And that's what the allegation is, and that's what we find to be true. There are records out there, as a result of this practice of foremen or yourself or Reggie J0ENSON, telling some of these guys sign off this thing, we got to
- get it in.
And some of the guys have done it, and some of
-~
them have refused, and some of them have gone out and said I won't sign it until I go out and check it and re-do it myself. And we've had different stories, some men have said "no," some men.have said "yes" and as a result, now we have a problem and it's going to be difficult to resolve because we've been told there's an estimated 44,000 terminations in this Unit 1.
Approximately 6,000 are Class Q, and that's the ones we have to be concerned about because our Commission is charged with the responsibility of seeing that the safety-related equipment is properly installed', built whatever is applicable. And we've got a question now, which the client, the licensee in this case, Arizona Public Service, is gonna have to give the Commission an answer now, how are they going to 9
(
s.
r
'23 show us without any shadow of a doubt every one of those 6,000 terminations that the records are true.and correct.
Now, one of the alternatives is-they're going to have to go back and re-do every termination in the plant, so the records are true.
And I don't know what the answer is going to be, but this is how big the problem is.
I, I at this point, it's not my job, or my decision, that will be done by our superiors, but I wanted you to get an idea the magnitude of what's happened here. Now to you guys it may seem ridiculous because you know that when the man looked at the termination and come back and said it's 0.K.,
it probably is 0.K.
But the public, many, many people are very concerned about how these plants are put together.
And they're scared to death of them. And, uh, when then they hear someone say the records in the electrical field at Palo Verde are falsified, they are concerned. Our Commission is concerned and that's why we are asking for' your cooperation here today to try and find out what happened, because it's obvious that in the future in Units 2 and 3 you people are going to have to have a different policy, you're ' going to have to have a i
procedure, 'cause right now from everything Gene and I have learned from talking to these many, many men we have talked to, there is nothing to guide you...
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
SHACKLETON:
on what to do on a new card and, uh, each foreman takes a different tact; e'ach electrician, depending on how strong his will, he takes a different tact, whether he rc... determinates and reterminates or whether he just signsr it of f and doesn't even look at it.
k'e've got all shades of stories.
And the important thing that Gene has
-n.
,,,,r,.-a,,_,,
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c 24 asked you, we're asking to try to recall and I know it's very difficult, how many cards could be involved and we're saying now to the*best of your recall you are talking more than 10 and less than 40, uh, we got another problem, Hecto.r.
NUNEZ:
.In the past year, you are talking about
...?
POWER:
No, yeah, right.
(Unintelligible) Say in the past two years.
NUNEZ:
Yeah, yeah.
POWER:
Would these all be...
NUNEZ:
This would amplify over the period to the termination area.
?OWER:
Would it be more for the previous year? Say the last two years. On quality class work. What would be the...
i NUNEZ:
On quality class work...?
F0WER:
Any idea? A guess is better than none. Yeah. See we l
don't have anybody else to ask.
NUNEZ:
You're talking about the Class Q wiring? Right?
SEA 013.ETON:
Yeah.
(
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NUKEZ:
More so than the other.
s j-SHACKLETON:
Class Q is all we're really interested in...
l 1
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25 POWER:
Class Q is really what we're interested in.
SKACKLETON:
I'm sure that...
POWER:
We're trying to get an idea of the magnitude if it in fact.our engineering staff can foresee any problem, I don't know.
NUNEZ:
At this time, you know, from that I'm trying to, recollect from my memory here, (unintelligible) 10 to* 40, probably.
POWER:
Would that be-total then.
That would be...
NUNEZ:
... and that would be on a Class Q.
POWER:
Class Q7 Would that-be strictly Class Q?
~
NUNEZ:
No, no I'm just trying to generalize the total. You know, uh, I don't have any specifics which ones are Class Q.
1 POWER:
No, I know you don't kee,p track of.it.
I'm not trying to tie you down to that. Again we're trying to get an estimate of what we.'re looking at.
Yeah. See, we've already been through electricians, an electrical engineer have been through 6,000 cards already.
We want to preclude from going through the other 40,000.
SH CKLETON:
See, another problem, Hector, that I'm sure the Bechtel Power. Corporation and the client are going to have to pursue is it your... the computer program as it now sets up doesn't show reissuing of termination cards. The initial card comes out and it shows the date that that
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26 card was issued and then when engineering finds out that a card is lost or missing, at any rate no one knows where it is, and they issue another one,,the computer then only shows that date, it d'oesn't show the date of a prior issue, so we have no way of knowing, that's why we're, we're pushing your braina here, to get, to try and get an.
idea when we talk to the Licensing Review' Board how big is this problem. _And it's not very big in numbers when you consider how many te'minations, you know, if your recall r
is approximate, even if you were off 100:
(and of tape)
... Um... at any rate, when you get into a problem like this, you look at what are the answers to make it better, because we've got Units 2 and 3 to go yet, and you know it just appears to me it's obvious (1) we're going to have to have a record of how many cards are issued, that's going to have to be available for.the audit trail, and (2) you people in supervision are going to have to have, I would assume, a procedure so that, uh, everybody does, handles the cards in a proper manner and the card should be identified that it is a duplicate.
PO'iER:
In providing the new cards, the duplicate cards to either the foreman or other subordinate personnel, does anyone ever objected to executing a new termination card?
Did they say, I really don't want to do it? Give it to somebody else. Do you recall any situations of that nature?
NC;EZ:
Yes,'I think there have been a few who have said that.
e
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27 POWER:
. Why would they object?
NUNEZ:*
Somebody else's work, possibly.
POWER:
They just didn't want to go look at it? What, what are your_ feelings when you receive these types of comments or heard these types of comments? You see, if you thought there was nothing wrong with it, it's hard for me... if I had two cards and you're both electricians and I give a couple to Owen and I give a cou'ple to you,'and you'say I don't want to do it, and I'm saying there's nothing' wrong with it, why would you accept the cards back if they objected? Even if it was somebody else's work?
NUNEZ:
Uh, the first incident where, uh, some of the individuals don't want to work where another individual has worked, basically bec~ause of a difference in their ability to do' the work.
POWER:
Some... some think they are better (unintelligible) they think they are...
k,.
NUNEZ:
Rather than... and they would rather not be involved.
POWER:
Do you recall any specific individuals who declined to re-do a termination card?
In a situation like that?
NUNEZ:
I can't recall any specific individuals (unintelligible)
POWER:
It has occurred? What do you,do with the card? Give it to another foreman or another electrician?
/
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r 28 NUNEZ:
Yeah, we'll try to get it back to the particular person that did it unless it's not...
POWER:
Yeah, I understand th'at's what you're going to do, yeah... those don't bother me.
I'm interested in those that you had an electrician who really didn't want to monkey with somebody else's work, what do you do with that card when you get it back?
NUNEZ:
We'll give it to another electrician.
POWER:
Another electrician.
In those situations, have there, ever been any undo pressure, cohersion by yourself or a foreman for any electrician to perform or execute a new termination card for work he had not done?
NUNEZ:
Pressure by, what do you mean?
?OWER:
Pressure, have you ever. inferred look either you do it or you're going down the road. You work here, we need the cards, you either sign the work or you are going to be laid off. This is what.I mean by undo pressure.
NUNEZ:
No, I don't think they've ever seriously threatened anybody, not POWER:
You don't think so.
Have you ever?
NUNEZ:
Not in a serious manner, to the best of my knowledge, no.
POWER:
Are you aware of any termination cards that have ever been executed with a signature or a name by other than the individual whose name or signature appeared on the card?
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29 is NUNEZ:
Would you repeat that?
POWER:
Yeah are you aware of any situations where there have-been a termination card with a signature on it that was not executed by the individual whose name appears on that card?
SHACKLETON:
'In other... what he's saying, do you know of anybody who's falsified someone else's signature on a card?
NUNEZ:
Somebody else's name, you mean on it?
SHACKLETON:
That's right. Say, say the work was done, uh...
POWER:
Say the work was done by HALL and, uh, LAFEVER signed HALL's name to a card. Are you aware of any situations?,
'NUNEZ:
In some of those cases, they have worked on the same cable.
POWER:
No, no, that doesn't bother us.
Those that worked together, great, but say, HALL did the work and, uh...
SHACKLETON:
LAFEVER wasn't even there.
POWER:
...LAFEVER wasn't even around so he doesn't want to put his name on it so he puts HALL's signature on there. Are you aware of any situations where that has occurred?
NUNEZ:
Where the individual will falsify his signature, you mean?
POWER:
Righti 9
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30 NUNEZ:
Not to my knowledge.
POWER:
Not to your knowledge?
NUNEZ:
Not to my knowledge.
POWER:
Have you ever put your signature on any termination cards?
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
POWER:
Under what circumstances?
NUNEZ:
Uh, Reggie JOHNSON will ask me to go ahead and sign a particular card off, uh, I don't recall the situation where that was involved.
Uh, I have some...
POWER:
You don't recall the circunstances?
-tiUNEZ:
No, not at this time.
I'd have to probably get the card, and whatever was necessary.
SRACKLETON:
Did you work on the termination, Hector, that you signed?
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
I didn't.
POWER:
Did you go and examine the work?
NUNEZ:
Not at that time.
POWER:
Did you subsequently 'go and check the work?
NUNEZ:
I wodid have to look at the specific uh...
D 9
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31 POWER:'
But what you have just said to me then, you have executed and put your signature on the termination card for work that you actually did not examine or in fact do.
Is that a correct statement?
NUNEZ:
Through Reggie JOHNSON's instructions.
POWER:
'When did this occur?
NUNEZ:
Oh, it's... occurred within the year aroun'd there somewhere...
POWER:
Within the last year?
NUKEZ:
I would say so.
POWER:
How many times?
NUKEZ:
Oh, once or twice (unintelligible).
POWER:
On class related work, or non-safety?
I NUNEZ:
I'm not sure of that. Uh...
POWER:
Did he give you a reason why he wanted the cards signed?
NUNEZ:
I can't recall any specific reasons...
POWER:
0.K.
NUNEZ:
(Unintelligible) you know might have been (unintelligible) s POWER:
Let me put it a different way...
P
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32 t
- NUNEZ:
It might have been...
POWER:
... If we go through'... we were interested in safety-related work.
If there are any safety-related sign'atures in there with your name, would it be safe to assume that you did not do the work?
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
POWER:
And that you did not inspect the work?
NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
POWER:
Now we'll... I'll have to ask you another question.
Based upon the cards that might be in there, from your own co=petence as an electrician with a number of years experience, would there be any reason to question the work? That... for those cards that you've signed?
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
I don't think (unintelligible)
POWER:
When you receive those instructions or Reggie aska you, was there your feeling on what he meant... was there'any undo pressure?
NUNEZ:
I, I...
POWER:
Cohersion, threat, was there a promise or a reward?
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
POWER:
In other words, did you do it for Reggie JOHNSON because
C c
33 you think, hey, when the layoff comes you're not going'to be layed off, or that you might retain your position, or even raised to a. higher position?
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
POWER:
You had no extraneous reasons for completing the cards,
'then NUNEZ:
(Unintelligible)
POWER:
... other than he.needed to get it back into the system?
NUNEZ:
Well, it's just, uh, it's a not working on nuclear power housing before as you said and him asking me to do something being my supervisor, you know...
POWER:
Yeah.
NUNEZ:
... uh, taking his advice more or less I mean not advise...comingfromhfmtodosomething...youknow.
POWER:
Yeah... why don't you... why don't you flip it off for 4
a minute?
SHACKLETON:
We've been off, uh, record for a few minutes while Gene explained to Mr. NUNEZ that at no time at this point are we directing that he reinstitute a new process in handling termination cards, that that will be the responsibility of his superiors. One thing that I wanted to ask you, Hector, is you've been given direction by Reggie JOHNSON, the superintendent, to sign termination card's for work that you did not do, and you complied with this, because a
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34 lff as you said he was superintendent. Has Reggie JOHNSON worked on nuclear projects before he came here?
NUNEZ:
He indicated to me that he had worked on some.
-SKACKLETON:
Do you know what, uh, nuclear projects he worked on before he came here?
NUNEZ:
Uh, he mentioned Rancho Seco, I think.
SHACKLETON:
0.K.
Thank you. Gene, go ahead.
POWER:
Uh, have... you've never... I think I asked the 2
question before... have you ever, uh, executed someone
- else's, uh, name to a termination card?'
i'
+
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
POWER:
I haven't got any more.
SRACKLETON:
Do you know, Hector, of anycne else that may have forged someone's name on a termination card?
c NUNEZ:
Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge at this time.
I've had (unintelligible) the impression (unintelligible)
[
but not to my knowledge.
SHACKLETON:
Are you aware that some of the men under your employment l.
j have signed termination cards under protest?
f I
NUNEZ:
Yes, I have, I think.
8 L
b
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35 SEACKLETON:
Ih> you have any idea by your recall how many we are talking about? Have told you that they were signing it under protest?
NUNEZ:
How many, uh, cards, or how many electricians?
SHACKLETON:
Well, how many electricians?
NUNEZ:
Uh, less than a half a dozen probably.
SRACKLETON:
Can_you recall the names of any of the fellovs?
NUNEZ:
Possibly Marvin CAINES.
SHACKLETON:
Marvin GAINES? How does GAINES spell his last name?
NUNEZ:
G-A-I-N-E-S.
SHACKLETON:
Is he still working on the site?
~
NUNEZ:
I think so.
l SHACKLETON:
Who else?
NUNEZ:
And VALENZUELA, Shy VALENQUELA.
SHACKLETON:
How do you spell his last name? Do you have it on that payroll?
POWER:
Yeah.. V-A-L...
SHACKLETON:
I'm n6e good at Spanish names, and I...
6
36' POWER:
V-A-L-E-N-Z-U-E-L-A.
VALENZUELA.
SHACKLETON:
Anyone else?
.NUNEZ:
Those were the only two I had in mind when I said less than six, I believe.
POWER:
Did they object directly to you?
NUNEZ:
Through the foreman and including me.
I was present.
POWER:
You were present?
NUNEZ:
Yeah.
POWER:
Did they, in fact, still complete the card even though they disliked it?
HUNEZ:
I believe they did.
POWER:
Do you know whether or not they actually went out and looked at the work?
NUNEZ:
Yes, I'm sure that they went out.
POWER:
But they still objected to it?
HUNEZ:
Yeah.
Something out in the field probably they objected to.
POWER:
Who, who was the, uh, the foreman in those situations, do you /ecall?
l k_
37 NUNEZ:
Joe SANDOVAL, I think was (unintelligible)
SHACKLETON:
What's his name again, please?
NUNEZ:
SANDOVAL.
POWER:
SANDOVAL.
SHACKLETON:
SANDOVAL, Joe SANDOVAL.
NUNEZ:
Yeah.
POWER:
In that situation, do you feel thsc there was undo, uh, pressure by SANDOVAL on the two electricians that performed the work?
NUNEZ:
No, sir.
70WER:
They were asked to do it, and in other words they could have objected, given them back, and you basically would have taken them to another electrician that would have...
NUNEZ:
Either back to Reggie or another electrician, and, uh, I don't know whether this is Class Q or not, non class incidence.
POWER:
I haven't got any more...
SHACKLETON:
0.K..The other area that we wanted to talk about, uh, Hector, was splicing of Class-Q cabica.
Have you ever directed anyone under your supervision to splice Class Q cablef?
6 m
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38 NUNEZ:
I don't believe that we're allowed to splice Class Q cables, and I don't think that I've 'ever instructed anybody to make the splices, Class Q cables. Between the'... unless it was an (unintelligible) to the end, you know, splicing it through a terminal (unintelligible)
SHACKLETON:
How about in the...
NUNEZ:
(Unintelligible)
SRACKLETON:
... in a manhole, down on the manhole? Up by the spray ponds?
NUNEZ:
I think they pulled a new cable in there and, uh...
SHACKLETON:
But prior, Hector, prior to pulling a new cable, did you direct someone to splice cable?
NUNEZ:
I'm trying to recollect my thoughts on that particular incident.
SEACKLETON:
Do you know the incident I'm relating to?
NUNEZ:
I believe you're talking about the manhole right outside spray pond next to a wood patrol center?
SRACKLETON:
I'm... that sounds the way it was described to me...
UUNEZ:
I would have to look at the blueprint or something of the area. At the time, uh, there!s a possibly that we were going to terminate a splice rather in that manhole and, uh, this went back to Reggio JOHNSON and he looked into it S
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39 (unintelligible). Engineer Al BOYCE have maybe been the engineer, I'm not for sure...
SHACKLETON:
Al BOYCE7 NUNEZ:
Yeah.
I'm not for sure whether he was the engineer or not, he comes to my mind.
That could be the wrong person, you know.
POWER:
But the engineer... engineering went back and' decided against it NUNEZ:
Yes, sir.
POWER:
... and they repulled the cable?
NUNEZ:
Uh-huh.
'9 POWER:
Do you recall when this occurred? Month and year, roughly?
I NUNEZ:
Oh, I'd say either plus,or minus a year.
SHACKLETON:
And that was for Unit 1, right?
NUNEZ:
Yeah, it was.
SRACKLETON:
Was the splice actually made?
NUNEZ:
I don't believe it was.
SRACKLETON:
The epble was too short, or what was the problem?
6
(
(
e 40 Why... why, why did... why was the idea of using a splice considered, what was the reason?
NUNEZ:
I v'ould have to get back with my foreman, Richard KEITH, and...
SEACKLETON:
0.K.
NUNEZ:
... He's... haadles most of my manhole problems and relate to him.
Un, I don't think.the splice was ever made, to the best of my knowledge.
POWER:
Who do you personally have? KEITH, uh, SANDOVAL...
SHACKLETON:
CRANE...
POWER:
Joe CRANE 7
~N UNE CRANE, uh-huh. Yeah.
He would be a closer associated person to that splice.
PO'ER:
Yeah.
NUNEZ:
... if he was directed by me to splice, it was because that information came through the superintendent, you know, and they looking at the whole situation and finding out...
PCWER:
So in effect then, that would have been procedurally the right thing to do or would engineering have decided that was correct for you to pass those instructions on?
/
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l.
l?'
41
[..
NUNEZ:
I' don't whether that engineer was aware of that that i
splice-(unintelligib'le)...
POWER:
Oh, no.- What I'm... what I'm saying, is to the best 6f I
your recollection, what you were doing in accordance with
~
your procedures and your design and your blueprints...
3 l
L NUNEZ.
Oh, yeah.
I was...
POWER:
... and engineering... Right...
NUNES:
I was doing what I thought was, uh, a normal operation.
[
you know...
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POWER:
Yeah NUNRE:
... We weren't trying to hide or do anything you know.
l
-10WER:
Yeah.
NUNEZ:
... I thought it was the procedure to do.
We, uh, come to this' place that, uh, (unintelligible) maybe the cable l
wasn't long enough, you know, so they have'that (unintelligible) you know, nobody was trying to hide something or... there's just n'a procedure I think due to l
the knowledge of not splicing Class Q cable that was questionable and I don't think that a splice was ever made or attempted to be made in that manner.
I think that was questionable right from... like I said, it, uh, you could j.
talk to foreman Richard KEITH, I think he would give you more definite input into that.
p 7
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s 42 SHACKLETON:
Allright, thank you. The next area, Hector, is, is the relationship of JOHNSON, yourself, and the three foreman, with QC inspectors. Do you feel that the QC inspectors that are inspecting the work done by the wiremen that they are able to operate freely and independent without any intimidation from, uh, supervision over the wiremen?
NUNEZ:
Would you repeat that, now?
SRACKLETON:
0.K.
Do you feel.that the QC inspectors that inspect the work being perfon ad by your men...
NUNEZ:
Right.
SRACKLETON:
... are able to operate freely and independent without any intimidation from, uh., supervision over the wiremen?
NUNEZ:
You mean pressurizing them to go ahead and accept it.
or...
SRACKLETON:
Right.
NUNEZ:
... is that what you're en1 king about?
SHACKLETON:
Right.
NUNEZ:
They operate on their own.
We don't, you know, we give checks to it, it's good, we take the back end, say, the QC people did not accept for whatever reasons it may be...
SHACKLETON:
You feel then, you're saying to me that you feel they have their proper independance?
e t
a 43 NUNEZ:
Oh, yes.
SHACKLETON:
0.K.
Fine.
Hector, you've got a lot of years of experience and you've been on this project now for almost six' years, six years this coming month. Do you have, from your' observations, any ideas or concerns that you. feel, in your field that you're working on out here, should...
that the... the Commission should look at? Do you feel anything... everything is allright, or do you feel there are some areas that should be inspected more closely?
NUNEZ:
Other than what we have discussed here today, I thought that the job was, well, satisfactory and installed in an electrical manner e.xcept for the documentation...
SMACKLETON:
Allright.
NUNEZ:
... that I've been made aware of today.
SRACKLETON:
0.K.
I don't have any other questions and Hector,,I appreciate your sitting here and going through this, I know it's not pleasant NUNEZ ~
No, it's not.
SRACKLETON:
... but it's, uh, it's important that we set everything out in the open, because we're not headhunting, we're trying to find do we have a problem, how big is it, and then management will take corrective action so that we don't repeat it on other units, 'cause we still have Unit 2 and 3 to go.
Uh, at this time, Hector, do you have iny additional. things you would like to say?
l i
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9 44 NUKEz No, not at this time.
(Unintelligible)
PO*4ER:
Don't you want to get a statement later on?
SHACKLETON:
Yes, I think we should.
Uh, at this time, we'll bring this interview to a close and the time is now 9:33 a.m.
~
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