ML20127P709
| ML20127P709 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palo Verde  |
| Issue date: | 06/16/1982 |
| From: | Wallerstein C, Wallerstein K AFFILIATION NOT ASSIGNED |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML17215B062 | List:
|
| References | |
| FOIA-83-161, FOIA-83-A-9 NUDOCS 8505240059 | |
| Download: ML20127P709 (28) | |
Text
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h VAUGHN INDEX i 51 APPEAL APPENDIX 4350 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
-In the matter of:
C.v -,
Interview of Jer-r-y Wallerstein
. Docket No.
Location:
Pages:
Date:
June 16, 1982 TAYLOE ASSOCIATES Cour' k' 59 841024 1625 i street. s."w." suite too4 05052 IA PDR wnhir.r,r.n. D c. 20006 PDR BERNABE83_g_9 g,,g,3,3
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1 i
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
.x g
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
3 4
5
-6 7
Interview of Kerry Wallerstein 8
9 June 16, 1982 -
10 Palo Verde Nuclear Station 11 l
l l
12.
13 14-
. !]
~
15 Investigators:-
E.J. Power Owen Shackleton 16 I
17 18 19 20
!'l 21 22 23
' 24
~
25-
!l I
2 1
1 E g g E E R I_ N_ E g 2
INVESTIGATOR:
This is an interview on June 16, 3
1982 of Mr. Kerry Wallerstein.
And Kerry is an electrician 4
assigned to Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station working 5-for Bechtel' Power.
6 Present for this interview from NRC, in addition
.7 to myself, Owen Shackleton is Gene Power.
Both of us 8
investigators from Region V.
g Kerry, are we recording this interview with your Permission.
10 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
You are.
33 12 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, Kerry.
The first thing I 13 wanted to address is one of the concerns that's been brought-to'as, and that is how some of the termination cards have 34 been handled.-
15 16 Are you working on terminations now, or have you g.7 worked on terminations in the p,ast?
l 18 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I have been for two-and-a-half gg years.
20 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
What our concerns are, that 21 have been given to us, is that there have been cards _ lost 22 we understand through the past.
And then when it comes time n
to finish it up and they pass it on, when the records,go into 24 the vault, they have to bring in a new termination card.
~
3:
Have you had any experience like this?
t
t i
1 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I haven't personally.
2 INVESTIGATOR:
Have you ever been asked to sign 3
off a termination card for work that you didn't perform?
4 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
Can you tell us what the circumstanc'es 6
were? -
7 MR. WALLERSTEIN:-
Terminations have been performed, 8
I understand, by I don't know who.
And I don't.know what the 9
condition of the card was when it was signed, if it,was signed 10 if they lost it, what happened to it, I don't k'now.
11 But they had come to me and asked me if I would 12 sign it off.
13 INVESTIGATOR:
Now, who is "we" come to you, who 14 was it that asked you?
15 MR. WALLEPSTEIN:
I imagine the card came down 16 through the ranks, but, you know, of course the last one to 17 hand it to me would be my foreman.
18 INVESTIGATOR:
Who was that?
19 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Joe Crane.
m' INVESTIGATOR:
That's C-r-a-n-e?
-21 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes.
22
~
INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, what happened then, Kerry, 23 when you were asked to sign one off?
24 -
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I refused, unless I was able to 25 remake the terminations.
He said remake the terminations and
4 ^
g-that's exactly what.I did.
Went up there, cut out the. existir a 2
. terminations, because I had a new termination card in_my 3
hand, made sure it was in the right (inaudible), which we 4
have to do, the right cabinet, right blocks, all that crap.
5 Right size, right cable number, snip off the-old ones, pull 6
an extra inch of cable up, put the new ones. on.
7
.Then I can sign the termination card out, which 8
I did.
9 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
Do you know of any of your 10 associates out there that you work with that have been i
11 directed to sign off cards, termination cards for work that they did not perf'orm?
12 13.
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I can't answer for the.m, because,
- I the-reason is, in the two-and-a-half years I've been 14 15 terminating I've almost 99-1/2 percent of the time I've been 16 on my own.
+
17 I have never worked -- there_were some crews that i
18 worked in teams.
I happen'to be on a crew that never worked t
19 !
in teams.
We were never paired up.
pp ]
So I was, most of the time, on my own.
The only 1
21 time we utre together at any time (inaudible) terminations I
.- 22 was when we were doing bigger cable.
23 -
TUVESTIGATOR:
Uhat crew were you personally 24 working on or have been working on?
~
l MR. WALLEnt same creu.
25. gm il
- l
-u-5,
INVESTIGATOR:
What is it called?
1 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Termination crew.
2 INVESTIGATOR:
Termination crew?
Because we just 3
talked to high voltage --
4 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
He was high voltage -- well, if 5
6 he's high voltage, obviously I'm going to have to be low 7
voltage.
INVESTIGATOR:
I don't know how many crews you 8
9 got out here.
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Well, there's like one high --
i go one crew has always done the high voltage.
All-the rest of 11 12 us have done everything else.
b INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
13 il N
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
But my main place where I worked j
34 i
i almost the entire two-and-a-half years have been in the 15 i
I control building.
And most of that in the control room.
16 l
That's where I've spent most of the time.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
Almost all of yours ended being 18 ig quality work, safety related (inaudible)
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
(inaudible) Q class, yes.
20 I
INVESTIGATOR:
An awful lot of Q class, and that's 21
'j
'What we're primarily interested in.
22-I I
mhe other is important, but that's not what we're 23 1
interested in, we're interested in safety aspects of --
24
- I 30, to the best of your knowledge then, in your C5 L
6 I
situations, you worked primarily by yourself and not (inaudibJ e)
I
- Getting back to what Owen asked, back to Joe Crane, 2
did he ask you to make out a new card, or did he tell you?
3 How~did that actually come out, it's important.
4
- 5 -
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
He would hand me the card, and I would go up there, and I would -- because he didn't know 6
that the card hadn' t been terminated.
There was no way for 7
8 him to --
INVESTIGATOR:
So he thought'this was any normal 9
10.
work here.
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
He just got it as a normal card.
11 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
12 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I would take the card and I 13 would go out to the field with the card.
14 INVESTIGATOR:
(inaudible) it's already installed.
15 MR. NALLERSTEIN:
It's already been installed, 16 I would put a note on the card with a paper clip, send the 17 18 card back.
INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
19 20 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
When I get back there he 'd say, 21 I'd say, it's been terminated already.
In fact, I just'had one. this morning, previously. terminated,' and I sent the card 22 23 back.
It's laying on the desk over there now.
And that's the way it goes.
Well, I don't.know, 24 I guess this one time, maybe it must have been a hot card.
25
]
7
.i 1
A lot of times it's a priority system that we're in'a ush for.
2 3
INVESTIGATOR:
They want to turn it over?
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes, they want to turn over the 4
5 systems.
So, he had said, well, why don't you sign the card 6
off.
I said, well, I said, I won't sign the card off, unless 7.
I re-terminate it.
8
-He said,. well, go re-terminate and bring it back.
9 INVESTIGATOR:
Just in that one instance?
go MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Just in that one instance.
11 INVESTIGATOR:
When did this occur?
12 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Oh, God.
13 INVESTIGATOR:
Approximately, it doesn't have to 14 be a date, but a month would help.
You know, (inaudible) 15.
December, January.
16 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
About as far as eight months 17 ago, nine months ago, ten months ago?
18 It's not something you remember, but it's not 19 something --
20 INVESTICATOR:
Okay, it's not'a usual occurrence.
We received som? anpressions that -- it's far 21,
22
- from conmon, it's far from the norm.
23 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I don't know what the other 24 guys work, right.
I can just answer --
e 25 INVESTIGATOR:
And in those cases, iIn conversation
p 8
I with him, did he, just as a matter of fact ask you to sign 2
it of f ? -
3 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes.
4 INVESTIGATOR:
You said, no.
(inaudible) we'll 5
sign it off.
6 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes.
(inaudible) 7 INVESTIGATOR:
(inaudible) conversation like that, 8
as far as you're concerned there was no pressure, no (inaudib3 c 9
nothing (inaudible.)
10 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Absolutely none whatsoever.
11 INVESTIGATOR:
And you have no knowledge of that 12 occurring with anybody else.
13 You know, you don't get your walking papers, 14 you're going to go down the road if you don't sign them or 15 any of --
16 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Never, never.
17
. INVESTIGATOR:
Have you heard any rumors about --
18 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes, the other guys, I'm sure 19 if it's happened to me it must have happened to them, too.
m I know one instance where-somebody had their 21 card stolen with their tools, and the cards were never 22 located.
But I would imagine, under those kinds of situationt 3
23 that they would send out cards whether those cards were 24 already terminated or not.
Somebody else would if he has 25 to sign them often, I'm sure.
l
9
.Or maybe the same guy if he has to sign them off 1
2-as_he. lost-them.
3 INVESTIGATOR:
'Iflyou did lose them, are there any. written procedures in which,you could correct the 4
5 situation, that you know of?
6 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
If you lost-the card?
7 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, say the one you just did, say 8
it was yesterday.. And this morning they come back to you and g
say, hey, the card was lost, destroyed, whatever.
Are there to any procedures which you could follow to prepar'e a new card 11 that would then go into the system?
12 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes, you could go back to the 13 engineering.
We have a' record of every card that goes into 14 the field at the desk.
You get the card number and just ask 15 for a new card.
16 INVESTIGATOR:
Then would you date it.-- how would 17 you date, as an example?
ig__
Mould you annotate that the original card -'as 19 missing?
20 MR. NALLERSTEIN:
I would date it today.
I would date it the day I got to the card,"not the date it was 21 22
- terminated, because I wouldn' t know the date it was terminated.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you put any annotation on the 24
. card that it's a second card, or a third card, or in any g
way note that it's not the original?
i
10
.I I
1 - h MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
2 INVESTIGATOR:
Any further questions in that area?
(inaudible) you don't know of anyone else that has 3 ;
4 had to prepare or did in fact prepare cards for which they 5
did not (inaudible) ?
6 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No,' sir.
~
7 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you maintain that, a normhl 8
l electrician maintain a personal record of things they do.
l 9
i MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
I 10 h INVESTIGATOR:
We're not engineers, we're 11 investigators.
But sometimes you've got to have some I
j (inaudible).
12 i
13 (inauuible)
A lot of crafts, the guys 14 maintain personal records.
You come across a lot o'f it n
15 l, for some reason or another.
ti 16 j; MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Two-and-a-half years of II 17 terminating out here, I would.probably would have made over 40,000 or 50,000 terminations myself, I'm sure.
18 q
0 19 j
INVESTIGATOR:
Who else was on crew?
,d 20 [
Namewise, how many guys?
li MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Who else was on our crew.
21 22 Frank Turck, T-u-r-c-h. "en Seger, S-e'-g-e-r, George Kennard, 23 K-e-n-n-a-r-d, Bill Burtch, B-u-r-t-c-h, Bob Rogers..
24 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, that's enough.
- ne? you --
?
lI 25 i
who else have you had on the foreman in the last, say. sin i
4 k
ii Y
11 i
months, a year?
2 Anyone else beside Joe Crane?
.i 3 l MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
4 INVESTIGATOR:
Who was your general foreman?
5 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Hector Nunez, N-u-n-e-z.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
Who was your supe $intendent?
7' MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Superintendent is Reg Johnson.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you have much contact with either g
one of those two guys, Nunez and Johnson?
Or is it all 10 strictly through your foreman?
]
I 11 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No, no, we're sort of informal.
1 12 If we have a problem and Hector's around, you know, Nunez, i
13 we'll go to him with it, and let him make a decision.
Or if I 14 he's not arcund and Joe's'not around then we'll see Reggie.
l 15 Or a lot of times we go straight to engineering if we have J
U l
a problem.
I find that's the easiest way around it.
i 16 I
17 INVESTIGATOR:
Do they allow you to go through l
u 18 (inaudible).
19 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
We're not supposed to.
~ 20 IUVESTIGATGR:
That's why I asked the question, 21 some people get very much uptight.
'l i
22 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
We're not supposed to, but we j
r 23 have --
24 I'.iVESTIGATOR:
Good relationships?
l i
25 MP. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes, we have a fairly good i'
i 0-i u
12. '.~
' rapport between supervision and labor and engineering.
1 2
A lot of times it's just a hassle.
You know,
~3 they'll give you a card and they'll~a'sk you to go out to the 4_
field.
Well, the field is -- it saves a lot of walking.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
At what level do your' supervisors 6
stop being (inaudible).
7 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
(inaudible)
INVESTIGATOR:
How is Reggie and Joe as far as 8
their ability to get along'with people?
9 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I woul.d say excellent.
Hector 10 might be the only one that's a little bit -- he walks a fine 11 12 line being general foreman.
He's the last contact which we have between management and labor.
13 14 INVESTIGATOR:
Which way does he lean?
Does he stay with the crafts more so than management?
15 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Depends what the problem is.
16 17 INVESTIGATOR:
There's no animosity between --
other than the normal dislikes 18 19 on some sides.
20 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No, I wouldn't say there's an 21 animosity there.
I'd say he's very safety conscious,. but then again everybody out here is crazy with safety to the 22 23 point of overboard.
And if there's a problem he'll take it
-- if it takes one of us spending a week in the office to 24 solve the problem with engineering, he'll do it.
25 l
I 13 l
t i
INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, Kerry.
An issue I wanted to.
1 2
talk down to you about is, have.you ever observed or'been l
l asked to participate in improper splicing of safety related i
3 i
4 cable?
What I'm talking about is splicing cable without a non-conformance report being written or QC being involved.
~
5 6
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
In fact,,to the best of i
i my k owledge right now we're not allowed to. splice Q class i
7 l
i
.8 cable, as far as I know.
9 INVESTIGATOR:
dkay.
l 4
10 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
If there's a problem, as far as,
11 I know, it's always been replaced.
Now, unless they've changed the policy -- again, I'm talking about low voltage 12 l
cable.
I don't know what the policies on high voltage are.
l-13 i
14 INVESTIGATOR:
Have you had any problems with 1
15 I
startup, coming back in an area where you've worked in, l
wnere you've already made terminations and they've disconnect 16 17 and then done whatever they had to do, and then reconnected 18 without going through proper procedures?
l 19 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Startup has come through on 20 the disconnected, I know.
I don't know whether it (inaudible; l
I don't know whether their procedures were proper or not 21 i
22 l
because I never stayed around to watch them.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
Did you ever go back into.an area 24 I
to co.T.plete some work and find work that you'd done, that h
25 h had been determina:ed, and then terminated again and done a
11 0
il 1.
14 improperly?
1 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
.No, done sloppily, yes, 2
n t improperly as far, again, I don't know if the wires were 3
put back on the right points.
But they were put back 4
5 someplace.
Now, whether they were put back by a card or 6
whatever it's supposed to be, I don't know where the cables 7
go, I don't know where the wires go.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
When you say sloppily, what do g
you mean?
10' MR. WALLERSTEIN:
An example is the computer 11 room.
I spent months and months working intthe computer 12 room upstairs, lacing all the cable and all that, and then 13 they came through and did a lot of testing, made cut tie 14
. wraps and stuff like that, and then they just left everything 15 hanging there.
I don't know if it was startup or pre-startup or 15 17 exactly what group it was.
I have no idea.
Because I know i
is also, APS personnel was doing some testing up there.
I don't c
19 know who to blame.
3 INVESTIGATOR:
Was that class O cable you're 21 talking about.
22 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
That's non-safety related..
24 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Non-safety.
25 INVEST'IGATOR:
Are you satisfied with the insulatinc L
15, 1
materials that you're asked to use on class O cable?
What 2
I'm talking about, and you hhve to bear with me I'm not an 3
electrician so I don't know a lot about what I'm talking 4
about, but I know that one of the types of materials they're 5
using is called Scotch-fill 2200 -- and I don't-know what 6
you've used for low voltage.
7 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Never used it.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
Are you satisfied with the 9
equipment that you have to work with then for doing your 10 terminations, the materials based on your years 6f experience ?
11 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
(inaudible) 12 INVESTIGATOR:
Again, this next issue may not 13 even be relevant to the work you're doing, but we've had some people express concerns because they've been required 14 I
15 to connect, like a two-bolt lug for a field cable to, like 16 a (inaudible) coming off of a motor that's only got a one-bol t 17 lug on it.
Have you had any experiences like this.
18 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
A lot ~of times.
19 INVESTIGATOR:
And what are your directions on 20 how to handle it.
21 MR. WALLERSTUIN:
You're allowed to use one-hole 22 l'ugs.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
So what do you do with the extra 24 hole in the lug?
Cut it off?
25 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Or get.one-hole lugs.-
1 1.
J
x.
1, INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
2
- MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Either one of the two is 3
acceptable as long as when we cut the lug, that where we.
4 cut it is the same distance from the hole to the end of the 5
lug as~it is from the hole to the side of the lug.
That we 6
have the same amount of metal there.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
So basically everything.is (inaudib Le)-
3 Have you ever heard or been involved with any g
situation where someone has said, since there is a void there
.h a two-hole lug, just fill'it in?.- Put another lug in to i
11 there to (inaudible) 12 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
Especially in a Q class, 13 I. don't see how they could get away with it anyway, because 14 you have to'have a QC --
15' INVESTIGATOR:
Do you know if that's a random 16 selection? MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Depends how long-the process l4 18
.is going to take place.
A lot of times, when we're splicing 19 low voltage OC, the QC man is there for the entire operation.
- l. -.
20 He not only checks the splice, he checks the cable number,
^
l 21 conduit, piece of equipment number.
The whole bit, he goes n
through the whole thing before he signs'it off.
23 On some of the longer duration of time, you.know, 24 for splices, sometimes -- wait, I did a Q class board.that 25 was a 40-foot boar'd, but we bolted, we did our crimps on
17 1
all three phases, did our bolting.
Then he came-back and 2
watched the torqueing and (inaudible) shrinking.
3 He wasn't there the entire time but --
4 INVESTIGATOR:
I was just asking for my own 5
edification, because I don't -- some of these, when we 6
ask, there's only a few things they haven't done (inaudible) 7 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
They're always there for the a
torqueing and the heat shrinking, I know that.
9 INVESTIGATOR:
Talking about'QC, Kerry.
Are you satisfied that the QC inspectors, you~use the te'rmainter-10 l
11 changeably I guess here, QC inspector and QC engineer.
Is 12 that one and the same class?
13 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes.
14 ll INVESTIGATOR:
Are you satisfied that they're I
15 1
doing a satisfactory job?
16 11R. WALLERSTEIM:
Yes, I would say so.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
You feel that, your experience 18 here over the time you've been here, that these people are l
qualified?
19 l
I 20 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
INVESTIGATOR:
You're saying no.
What's your 21 22 thinking?
23 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
OC people we have right now are 24 l
qualified.
Two-and-a-half years ago we started here, I would l
say they weren't qualified.
They could read all the papers 25 i
i I.I m
18 and'all the forms'they wanted to, but until they actually 3
saw it done in the field, they didn't know what they were 2
reading.
3 But, you know, the men in the field who'd done it 4
before -- they've got to start sometime, right.
5 So originally the QC people knew less than the 6
- field people as far as what they wanted.
And I'd say now 7
that's --
8 INVESTIGATOR:
That's pretty common on most jobs.
g MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I'm sure it would be.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
Unlike in the Navey program, where 11 you work on building nuclear submarines.
Before.you can be 12 a QC inspector, you had to have served 10 years in the craft, 13 and~be a good journeyman before you can qualify as a QC.
14 And a QC makes more money than a craft.
15 -
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
(inaudible) I don't know if they 16 require e::perienced -- well, I don' t know.
I don't even know 17 if they require experienced people to qualify for QC.
- 18 INVESTIGATOR:
They' usually don't.
gg MR. WALLERSTEIN:
So they bring in somebody 20 absolutely green who's going to go out in the field and tell 21 somebody with 20 years e::perience how to 30 it?
It ain't 22 going to work.
Then'you're going to wind up with animo,sity 23 which'we did in the beginning.
24 I!IVESTIGATOR:
That's not unusual.
IIave you,
- 25
19 8
, gh t
while we're discussing this, one of the other concerns that 2-have been given to us'is that construction is overriding QC.
3 And by this, I'm sure you understand what I mean, but it's 4
where because of the push for the job, the QC inspector may 5
have'some objection.
'But (inaudible) says it's all right 6
the way it is.
And so QC doesn't say anything.
7 Any problems that way where GC has been subject to 8
construction?-
9 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I haven'+,'no, never.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
The next issue, again, lio you get 11 involved or.have anything to do with (inaudible) ?
f MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
12 I
13 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
How about use of 0-rings on I
14 terminations in the cabinets?
e i
l
^
15 i MR. WALLERSTEIN:
0-rings?
=16 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, where you've got a, as I 17 understand it, Kerry, there's a fitting where the cable comes 18 and goes inside to the --
19 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
That's high voltage again.
20 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, you don't use it.
Any 21 observations on your point or experience where somebody's 22 come up to do core drilling to run another line through a 23 '
wall and accidently bored into conduit?
24 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Not to my knowledge.
But then 25 again'I haven't been around core drill work.
c
==
20 1
INVESTIGATOR:
Well, I want to know what you know.
1 2
IDo you have any observations that you've.made in-the time ~
3-you've been here that you' feel the Nucle'ar Regulatory Commissi on g4
.ought to look at?
Were in the safety related cable.
5-MR. WALLERSTEIN:- Relating only to safety related 6
cables?
7-INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, that's the only one that we a
f have _ prime interest in.
We have jurisdiction in that field, g.
but we don't in non-safety related.
What we're talking about, 10 - l Kerry, if'no one's ever explained it, there's a hell of a lot 11 of' things in this plant that could go haywire, the (inaudible) 12 could go out, the_ge'nerators could go haywire, and APS has
.13 got to shut-the plant down.
It has nothing to do with the 14 health and safety of the public other than an inconvenience-15 of'having a power plant off-line.
But it doesn't endanger
- 16 anyone': life.
- 17 We don't get involved.in that. side of the house.
18 But if it'has to do with control cables like in the control
'g room, and they have some' malfunction in the reactor vessel, i
20 and they had to regain control of the plant, and ha'd malfunction 21 in the electrical system and couldn't operate, say, the
. 22 -
control rods, that has a definite bearing'on the health and 23.
safety of the public or the people in the plant.
And that's 24 where we come in.
So we're only interested in those (inaudible)
~
26 you guys call O class.
l.
21
~*
1 11R. WALLERSTEIN:
Let's see.
Any instance involvin g 2
O class cables.
3 INVESTIGATOR:
Any concerns you might have that 4
maybe you feel our inspectors have missed because they can't 5
possibly see everything in one of these plants.
6 You can offer anything you'd like to.
We (inaudible) 7 the face that NRC doesn't get around sufficiently enough to 8
see it.
i 9
Any comments you'd like to make.
Obviously we've I
to got thousands of people working in this building.
11 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No, I wouldn't say there's 12 any thing.
13 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
Gene, you have any additional 14 l! questions?
15-INVESTIGATOR:
No, I don't think so.
The last 16 item, which is a problem in America, drugs.
You know we 17 got them out here, we've had allegations, we've had problems.
18 What is your opinion of the drug traffic on the site?
I'm 19 talking about all uncontrolled drugs, Kerry.
Smoking pot, 20 snortinc coke, what have you, amphetamines.
I 21 IIR. WALLERSTEIN:
I can't answer about the coke 22 or amphetami..es, but pot smoking, I've seen it quite a bit.
23 I should say quite a bit, you know, for the percentage of 24 people out here.
I've seen it out here.
I've had a run-in 25 with a person that was working with me with it.
'And this was
7 22 back' -- a little ove~r two-and-a-half years ago.
1
-INVESTIGATOR:
How about currently, Kerry?
'2
'3 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I'm sure it's going on.
INVESTIGATOR:
Well, have you come across it,. pot 4
5 smoking currently?
6 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Well, not in the last.probably 7
six to eight months.
But then again, you have realize I'm
-8 in a no smoking area now.
g INVESTIGATOR:
How about in the parking lots and 10-in the smoking areas?
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No.
If they do it, they're going 11 12 to go hide in the (ihaudible) or they're going to go in the 13 cable shafts.
And in the parking lot, I'm not in the parking 14 lot long encagh to see anything.
15 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you know where they're making 16 buys, do you have any idea relative to that?
17 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Where you can what?
18 INVESTIGATOR:
Buy, make arrangements to buy 19 narcotics and drugs.
20 MR. WALLERSTEIN :
Probably a dozen or so people.
21 15VESTIGATOR:
Would you care to name any that 22 you know?
23
- 1R. WALLERSTEIN:
No, I don't want to name t'.?cm.
IT.CSTIGATOR:
But you know that many on-sit,e at 24 25 this timt?
F' L_
I 23 We don't want them in the system because then we're 1
i 2
l worried about what they're installing (inaudible) safety.
l 3
l MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I really don't care if they're i
4 smoking pot.
INVESTIGATO'R:
I really don't think you're going tc 5
6 get them out of the system, though.
7 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Well, that's true.
Again, when 8
you're asking me'if I,can buy it here.
Yes, I can buy it 9
here, but it's easier for me to just walk out.
I can get it 10 for free out here, too.
Il 11 6
Now, if you ask me if these people are dealers, I would have
- I would have to say, except for raaybe tuo people, 12 13 to say, no, they're not dealers.
1 14 INVESTIGATOR:
Are they selling pot, is that what 15 l -- they're dealing pot.
Is that what we're talking about?
f 16 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
They have it for their own use.
l 17 INVESTIGATOR:
We're talking about marijuana, I
18 though.
19 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
Yes.
And if you want it you i! can get it.
As far as any harder drugs than that --
20 l
21 INVESTIGATOR: What's the going price out here for 22 a' cigarette or for a lid, do you know?
I MR. WALLERSTEIN:
No, I don't use it.
And I won't 23 24 work with people that! do.
l 25 INVESTIGATOR:
Arc there any locations that would l
L
24 generally be the type of place other than those that you 1
mentioned (inaudible).
2 We don't regulate it but we don't like to see it 3
around for obvious reasons.
We don't want anybody high when 4
they're supposed to be putting in some safety relat'ed system.
5 It's pretty hard for the Commission,to certify to 6
the public that a nuclear power plant has been put together as 7
8 safely as possible when we know we've got some craft people who may be under the influence of uncontrolled drugs.
g MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I realize that.
It's a problem.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, we have a problem.
11 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
But you're not going to get rid 12 of it either.
13',
I 14 l
I"VESTIGATOR:
We're realistic enough to kn6w we're l never going to stamp it all out, but we'd like to cut it bach 15 16 as far as ue can.
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I do,n't know how you plan to 17 18 do that, but good luck.
INVESTIGATO2:
Okay.
Do you have any further 19 3) questions, Gene?
21 INVESTIGATOR:
No, Anything else you'd like to 22 say?
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I'd say, all in all, I've been, 23 24 like I say, in the control room for two-and-a-half year,s i
25 q almost steady.
And ~ in t he control building defir.itely for
'l U
4
25 l~two-and-a-halfyearssteady,andtomeitseemslikeeverybod) 1 2
all in all has done a fairly' good job.
That's been a couple 3
hard-noses, but they get weeded out pretty quick.
There's 4
some guys that walked around with a chip on their shoulder.
5' INVESTIGATOR:
Are you satisfied, Kerry, with the 6
work that you've seen that it's satisfactory work?
7.
MR. WALLERSTEIN:
To a point.
And the point being 8
that terminations are. good, okay.-
The way the cables are laid 9
in is terrible in a lot places. It's sloppy, really sloppy.
10 People like that, they shouldn't even'have the 11 fucking jobs, excuse the language.
'12 l
INVESTIGATOR:
Is there some particular area our I
13 [' inspectors ought to look at, where there's cable laid that i[ you feel ought to be -- something ought to be done to correct 14 I
15 it?
Is MR. WALLERSTEIN:
There's cables laid (inaudible) 17
' walk around into just about any cabinet in the control room 18 and see some.
Again, the ends of the cable are terminated l
g! with a crimping tool that's numbered and calibrated and all 5
19 I
r 20 :
that sort of thing.
The termination is fin', but as far as e
- 21. l being neat, it could have been a hell of a lot neater.
22 But then again, it was the procedures we had to l
follow a lot of times that led to the cables looking like that 23 l
24 l
Those procedures were, instead of waiting for enough termination i
25
. cards for one cabinet were issued, as they came creeping out t
v 26 one'at a time, there might be a hundred~ cables laying on the 1
floor, and here we had to pick.one out and terminate it.
2 Well, it might terminate down here.
And then'there 3
might be 99 more cables going past it that should have been 4
behind it not'in front of it.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
I understand.
6 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
So you wind up with shit looking 7
like that.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes,'it was poor coordination is g
10 what you're saying.
MR. WALLERSTEIM :
I wouldn't -- I'd say --
it's 11 a---
12 INVESTIGATOR:
-- organization we have.
13 MR. WALLIRSTEIS:
I blame it.50-50, management 14 and labor, because there's nothing on this job that (inaudible
)
15 16 can do, okay, that we can' t take the time to do it right.
I i
If it takes -- they don't care if it takes you 17 all day to terminate two lousy number 14 wires, but do it 18 19 right.
And. a lot of times it's not done right, or it's'done 20 -
right but it's sloppy.
But of course you can't tell if something's sloppy 21 22 until you see something that's done neat.
i INVESTIGATOR:
That's true.
23 I
MR. UALLEP.3TEIa:
Again you've got QC people,that 24 3
are out here, and they don't knou when this stuff was first L
J
~~~
27 s.
ll I
started, they didn't know what the norm should be, they only 2
knew it as it came out.
Again, they were not experienced.
3 INVESTIGATOR:
(inaudible) We can go to different 4
places, just cleanliness, and messy house, just how you clean 5
up an area.
And we kn'ow from one site to another site.
Some 6
look like a Chinese whorehouse.
Of course, that's indicative 7
of the type you're going to get. (inaudible) 8 MR. WALLERSTEIN:
I agree with what you're saying.
9 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, Kerry, we really appreciate 10 the time you've given to the Commission, and we'll discontinue 11 this interview now at 1:20 p.m.
12 i
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't 14
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