ML110760687
| ML110760687 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 03/07/2011 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| chawla M | |
| References | |
| NRC-774, G20110127, OEDO-2011-0156 | |
| Download: ML110760687 (30) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title: 10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Palisades Nuclear Power Plant
Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: (telephone conference)
Date: Monday, March 7, 2011
Work Order No.: NRC-774 Pages 1-28
NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1 + + + + +
2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +
4 NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 5 + + + + +
6 PETITION REVIEW BOARD 7 DISCUSSION WITH PETITIONER 8 --------------------------- 9 In the Matter of: :
10 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION :
11 OF MICHAEL MULLIGAN :
12 WITH RESPECT TO :
13 PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT :
14 --------------------------- 15 Monday, March 7, 2011 16 17 The above-entitled conference convened via 18 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 1:00 p.m.
19 Eastern Daylight Time.
20 BEFORE: 21 THEODORE QUAY, Petition Review Board Chairman 22 MAHESH CHAWLA, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition 23 TANYA MENSAH, Petition Coordinator 24 ANDREA RUSSELL, NRR/Division of Policy and Rulemaking 25 26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2NRC STAFF PRESENT:
1 MERRILEE BANIC, NRR/Generic Communications 2 Branch 3 JOHN CASSIDY, Region III 4 GREG CASTO, NRR/DSS/Balance-of-Plant Branch 5 JOHN ELLEGOOD, Senior Resident Inspector, 6 Palisades Nuclear Plant Region III 7 STEVEN GARRY, NRR/Health Physics and Human 8 Performance Branch 9 JACK GIESSNER, Region III/Division of Reactor 10 Projects/Branch IV 11 VIJAY GOEL, NRR/EEEB 12 MATTHEW HAMM, NRR/Technical Specifications 13 Branch 14 LOIS JAMES, NRR/EQVB 15 ROBERT LERCH, Region III/Division of Reactor 16 Projects/Branch IV 17 ROBERT PETTIS, NRR/DE/EQVB 18 KEVIN ROCHE, NRR/DIRS/IPAB 19 ANTHONY ULSES, NRR/DSS/Reactor Systems Branch 20 JAY WALLACE, NRR/DCI/Piping and NDE Branch 21 22 ALSO PRESENT:
23 BARBARA DOTSON, Entergy Nuclear/Palisades 24 JIM KUEMIN, Entergy Nuclear/Palisades 25 26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (1:00 p.m.)
2 MR. CHAWLA: Good afternoon. I would like 3 to thank everybody for attending this meeting. My 4 name is Mac Chawla. And I am the Palisades Nuclear 5 Plant Project Manager.
6 We are here today to allow the petitioner, 7 Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 8 regarding the 2.206 petition dated February 22, 2011.
9 I am the Petition Manager for the petition. The 10 Petition Review Board Chairman is Ted Quay.
11 As far as the Petition Review Board's, or 12 PRB's, review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 13 requested this opportunity to address the PRB. This 14 meeting is scheduled from 1:00 to 2:00 p.m. Eastern 15 Daylight Time.
16 The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 17 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 18 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 19 the petition. The transcript will also be made 20 publicly available.
21 I would like to open this meeting with 22 introductions. As you go around the room, please be 23 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 24 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4record. 1 I will start off. Again, my name is Mac 2 Chawla. And I am the Petition Manager. We go around 3 here. 4 MR. GOEL: My name is Vijay Goel, 5 electrical engineer from the Office of Nuclear Reactor 6 Regulation, Electrical Engineering Branch.
7 MR. WALLACE: Jay Wallace, materials 8 engineer, NRR, Division of Component Integrity.
9 MS. RUSSELL: Andrea Russell, 2.206 10 Coordinator.
11 MS. JAMES: Lois James, Office Allegation 12 Coordinator, NRR.
13 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Ted Quay, Petition Review 14 Board Chairman, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
15 MR. PETTIS: Bob Pettis, senior reactor 16 engineer, Division of Engineering, NRR.
17 MR. CASTO: Greg Casto, Balance-of-Plant 18 Branch Chief, Division of Safety Systems, NRR.
19 MR. ULSES: And this is Anthony Ulses, the 20 Branch Chief of the Reactor Systems Branch in the 21 Division of Safety Systems, NRR.
22 MS. BANIC: Lee Banic, Generic 23 Communications Branch, NRR.
24 MR. HAMM: Matthew Hamm, reactor systems 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5engineer, NRR Technical Specifications Branch.
1 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. We have completed 2 introductions at the NRC headquarters. At this time 3 are there NRC participants from headquarters on the 4 phone? Please introduce yourselves.
5 MS. MENSAH: Tanya Mensah, NRR.
6 MR. CHAWLA: Steven Garry, I believe you 7 are on. Steve Garry? Steve Garry, are you on the 8 phone? 9 MR. GARRY: Yes, Steve Garry is on the 10 phone, senior health physicist, NRR.
11 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Anybody else from 12 headquarters on the phone?
13 (No response.)
14 MR. CHAWLA: I believe that is all we 15 have. Are there any NRC participants from the 16 regional office on the phone? Please introduce 17 yourself.
18 MR. LERCH: All right. My name is Robert 19 Lerch. I'm the project engineer for Branch IV in 20 Region III.
21 MR. GIESSNER: Jack Giessner, Branch 22 Chief, Region III, responsible for inspections at 23 Palisades.
24 MR. CASSIDY: John Cassidy, senior health 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6physicist in the Division of Reactor Safety, Region 1 III. 2 MR. LERCH: That's it for the region.
3 MR. ELLEGOOD: This is John Ellegood, 4 senior resident inspector for the NRC at Palisades.
5 MR. CHAWLA: Are there any representatives 6 for the licensee on the phone?
7 MR. KUEMIN: Jim Kuemin from Palisades 8 Licensing Department.
9 MS. DOTSON: And also Barb Dotson, 10 Palisades Licensing.
11 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. I believe that's it 12 for the licensee. Mr. Mulligan, would you please 13 introduce yourself for the record?
14 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan. And I 15 had a 2.206 back a little while ago on the fuel pool.
16 And I am a whistle-blower. I have been involved with 17 a lot of whistle-blowing activities. And I was --
18 worked as -- I was in submarines. And then I worked 19 at a nuclear power plant as a reactor operator. And 20 thank you.
21 MR. CHAWLA: It is not required for 22 members of the public to introduce themselves for this 23 call. However, if there are any members of the public 24 on the phone that wish to do so at this time, please 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7state your name for the record.
1 (No response.)
2 MR. CHAWLA: Hearing none, I believe there 3 is no members of the public here.
4 I would like to emphasize that we each 5 need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 6 Court Reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
7 If you do have something that you would like to say, 8 please first state your name for the record.
9 For those dialing into the meeting, please 10 remember to mute your phones to minimize any 11 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 12 a MUTE button, this can be done by pressing the keys 13 *6. To unmute, press the *6 key again. Thank you.
14 At this time I will turn it over to the 15 PRB Chairman, Mr. Ted Quay.
16 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Good afternoon. Welcome 17 to this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted 18 by Mr. Mulligan. I would like to first share some 19 background on our process.
20 Section 2.206 of Title X of the Code of 21 Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 22 the primary mechanism for the public to request 23 enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
24 This process permits anyone to petition 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8the NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 1 licensees or licensed activities. Depending upon the 2 results of its evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 3 or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 4 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
5 The NRC staff guidance on the disposition of 2.206 6 petition requests is a management directive, 8.11, 7 which is publicly available.
8 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 9 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 10 additional explanation or support for the petition 11 before the Petition Review Board's initial 12 consideration and recommendation.
13 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 14 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 15 examine the Petition Review Board on the merits or the 16 issues presented in the petition request. No decision 17 regarding the merits of the petition will be made at 18 this meeting.
19 Following this meeting, the Petition 20 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
21 The outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 22 with the petitioner.
23 The Petition Review Board typically 24 consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 1 petition manager and a Petition Review Board 2 coordinator. Other members of the Board are 3 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 4 the information in the petition request.
5 At this time I would like to introduce the 6 Board. I am Ted Quay, the Petition Review Board 7 Chairman. Mac Chawla is the Petition Manager for the 8 petition under discussion today. Andrea Russell is 9 the 2.206 Coordinator. Our technical staff includes 10 Greg Casto, Branch Chief from the Office of Nuclear 11 Reactor Regulation's Balance-of-Plant Branch; Tony 12 Ulses, Branch Chief from the Office of Nuclear Reactor 13 Regulation's Reactor Systems Branch; Lois James, 14 Senior Office Allegation Coordinator from NRR's 15 Quality and Vendor Branch; Bob Pettis, senior reactor 16 engineer from NRR's Quality and Vendor Branch; Vijay 17 Goel, electrical engineer from NRR's Electrical 18 Engineering Branch; Jay Wallace, material engineer 19 from NRR's Piping and NDE Branch; Matt Hamm, reactor 20 systems engineer from NRR's Technical Specification 21 Branch; Steven Garry, senior health physicist from 22 NRR's Health Physics and Human Performance Branch; 23 Jack Giessner, Branch Chief, Branch IV from Region 24 III, Division of Reactor Projects; Bob Lerch, project 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10engineer, Branch IV from Region III's Division of 1 Reactor Projects; and John Ellegood, senior resident 2 inspector, Palisades Nuclear Plant from Region III.
3 As described in our process, the NRC staff 4 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 5 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach 6 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 7 petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 8 process. 9 I would like to summarize the scope of the 10 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 11 date. On February 22nd, 2011, Mr. Mulligan submitted 12 to the NRC a petition under the 2.206 process 13 regarding Palisades Nuclear Plant located in Van Buren 14 County, Michigan.
15 In his petition request, Mr. Mulligan 16 identified the following areas of concern. Mr.
17 Mulligan stated that the reactor oversight program is 18 ineffective and Entergy has a documented history of a 19 culture of falsification and thumbing their noses at 20 recurring violations.
21 In his petition, Mr. Mulligan requested 22 the following actions: one, immediate shutdown of 23 Palisades and other Entergy nuclear power plants; two, 24 replacement of top Palisades management staff; three, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11replacement of Entergy corporate nuclear staff; four, 1 assignment of two additional NRC inspectors at 2 Palisades; five, formation of a local public oversight 3 panel around every plant; six, formation of an 4 emergency NRC senior official oversight panel; seven, 5 formation of a national NRC oversight public panel; 6 eight, analysis of Entergy's reoccurring problems; 7 and, nine, evaluation of NRC Region III resources.
8 As the basis for this request, Mr.
9 Mulligan cited various plant events/issues, which 10 could be divided into the following categories: one, 11 equipment failures; two, documentation or design basis 12 concerns; three, radiation protection; four, records 13 falsification; and, five, reactor oversight process.
14 Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 15 date. On February 24th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan requested 16 an opportunity to address the Petition Review Board by 17 phone. 18 On March 2nd, 2011, Mr. Mulligan made an 19 additional request to speak to an NRC official 20 regarding the general state of conditions at Palisades 21 prior to addressing the PRB.
22 On March 3rd, 2011, the PRB met internally 23 to discuss the request for immediate action only. The 24 PRB denied the request for immediate action because 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12there were no immediate safety concerns to the plant 1 or to health and safety of the public.
2 On March 4th, 2011, the Petition Review 3 Board's decision was conveyed to Mr. Mulligan. Mr.
4 Mulligan was also informed that the request to speak 5 to an NRC official was outside the 2.206 process and 6 he would have the opportunity during the phone call 7 with the PRB to address his concerns and provide 8 additional information.
9 As a reminder for the phone participants, 10 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 11 this will help in the preparation of the meeting 12 transcript that will be made publicly available.
13 Thank you.
14 And at this point I will turn it over to 15 you, Mr. Mulligan.
16 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you. Thank you for 17 this opportunity this afternoon. I hope I am talking 18 loud enough that people can hear me.
19 CHAIRMAN QUAY: We can hear you fine.
20 MR. MULLIGAN: The first, this is -- well, 21 this is the second H. B. Robinson plant this year or 22 within the last year or so and stuff, Wolf Creek. And 23 I'm reading this from the Professional Reactor 24 Operator Society. And it's about Wolf Creek recent 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13inspection findings. "Based on the recent results of 1 the inspections, the NRC" -- this is -- PROS just came 2 out with this today. Based on the recent results of 3 the inspections, the NRC identified 11 violations. A 4 number of findings" -- well, we won't go into that, 5 but there's a lot of stuff there.
6 The NRC -- and here is a comment by Bob 7 Meyer, who is the head honcho of PROS, "The industry 8 needs to get a grip on poor procedures, procedure 9 backlogs or an event could occur that will halt any 10 nuclear construction in this country." 11 He goes on to list all of the findings of 12 that Wolf Creek event or inspection thing. And he 13 goes on to say, "The procedure exists. The procedure 14 issues exist at every plant out there. The NRC and 15 INPO executives have been informed of the fleet not 16 controlling backlogs and procedures. The numbers of 17 issues point towards an event, a significant event if 18 you did not get procedures backlogs under control." 19 You know, H. B. Robinson basically was an 20 event that, you know, really, there were so many 21 things involved in there, training, equipment 22 problems, simulator fidelity. You know, it's just 23 mind-boggling.
24 But I listen to you guys, you NRC guys, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14identify yourselves. All I can think about, your 1 college education, I mean, all the years you -- you 2 know, collectively it's tremendous and all the 3 experience that you have around these plants and stuff 4 like that. You know, I know you guys are really smart 5 and educated and stuff like that. And it's 6 astonishing.
7 And the H. B. Robinson event was, you 8 know, a couple of little more problems than you might 9 have had at the TMI event. Basically this Wolf Creek 10 kind of they went to a shutdown. They got into all 11 sorts of troubles, simulator fidelity problems, 12 procedure problems, problems with the license 13 operators and stuff like that.
14 I mean, hey, there's something going on 15 here. A lot of people recognize it. And that is what 16 I have been trying to do, is to get everybody's 17 attention and stop fiddling around and fix the 18 problems and stuff like that.
19 I mean, I have talked a lot on this 2.206 20 about Vermont Yankee. It's all basically the same 21 thing. And, you know, there's -- typically with all 22 of us, you know, our country sets limit. If you go 23 past the law, there's usually a punishment. There's 24 some sort of activity that is done to us that forces 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15us to engage the problem. You know, there's a 1 punishment. And then, finally, we get it. Either we 2 pay a terrible price or we recognize that we have been 3 wrong and there is something about what we think of 4 ourselves as wrong. And we realize we have to change 5 ourselves. You know?
6 The way you guys handle it is you get into 7 problems or you get into a set of issues. And then 8 the next thing you do is you think that in order to 9 fix it, you've got to write another rule or you've got 10 to ramp up complexity, you've got to put it into the 11 RCA or to corrective actions, you've got to sit there, 12 write more rules and procedures.
13 You are paper-whipping, I think. You 14 paper whip. You are paper-whipping people with more 15 rules and laws that are generally not enforced. And 16 there's -- you know, there's just not enough.
17 Something is not put in front of you where you sit 18 there and you say, "Wow." You know, something is 19 going on, and I've got to change my ways.
20 And that is what I am trying to get at 21 with Palisades and Vermont Yankee also and stuff.
22 When are we really going to come to our senses? You 23 know, this thing isn't an endeavor to make profits.
24 It's not only that. There's so much riding on this.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 Twenty percent of our electricity is 1 produced by nuclear power. If we was to lose 2 confidence in the nuclear industry, it's bad enough in 3 this environment where nobody trusts government. You 4 know, it's mind-boggling the consequences if we lost 5 numerous plans because, you know, we lost confidence 6 and people telling us the truth.
7 We got, you know, potentially the new 8 nukes coming on and stuff like that. And, you know, 9 I tell you right now if the NRC is -- this 10 mealy-mouthed stuff keeps going on and especially 11 reactor construction and if they don't nip it in the 12 bud and if they're not tough, we've going into the 13 1970s all over again. It's going to be the same 14 thing. You're going to go hide behind your closed 15 doors and debate the procedures until it is sickening.
16 They're going to build the plants out.
17 Then you're going to say, "Oh. Well, we" 18 -- then there's going to be a public response. And 19 then the next thing you know, you know, everybody is 20 doing the same thing they did in the '70s, you know, 21 adding on components after the fact and just barely 22 getting the plants online if they're lucky and stuff.
23 So there's a lot of things on the line 24 here. And we've seen -- you know, typically a lot of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17these institutional problems, you know, we see them.
1 Before the accident, we consider them walking on 2 water. We consider them -- it's a falsification 3 because if we knew what it really was before the 4 accident what was going on, we would stop it. We 5 would step in there with authority and power. And we 6 would get their attention. And they would change 7 their ways.
8 So like the Gulf of Mexico, you know, 9 beforehand, BP was -- well, we knew in the background 10 a lot of other activities BP was doing. You know, 11 nothing surprised us. But with the Gulf, we thought 12 they were walking on water. They were doing 13 everything right. Most of the public bought that and 14 stuff like that.
15 And the pattern always is after the 16 accident, after the billions of dollars after we pick 17 up the body parts, we discover retroactively that it 18 was a garbage pit and stuff. And this happened at all 19 of our institutional accidents from NASA to Katrina, 20 our economic troubles with Washington and stuff like 21 that. 22 We don't recognize the situation 23 beforehand and turn the direction of the industry.
24 It's a falsification. We don't identify what is going 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18on, clearly document it, clearly explain what is going 1 on to the public, and give us the opportunity to 2 interact with our environment and stuff like that.
3 And then after the accident, you know, 4 then the Blue Ribbon Commission and all that sort of 5 stuff comes out. And you find out that it was a train 6 wreck before the accident. I mean, it was clear and 7 obvious to everybody a train wreck was coming or, you 8 know, the information kind of tells you they have to 9 know that a train wreck was on the way.
10 Why didn't they stop it? Why aren't they 11 thinking about our country and what is best for all of 12 us? How come? This can't make sense all these kinds 13 of accidents happening and we just let it happen.
14 It's not like they come out of nowhere. We discover 15 after this terrible accident that the system was -- it 16 was a garbage dump.
17 Repetitive things happen over and over 18 again. And the thing that made them finally -- the 19 things finally gave out, you know, gave out before, 20 many times, and had problems. And people just ignored 21 it. But that's the message that I am trying to get 22 across. 23 Again, you know, procedures and rules and 24 federal regulations and congressional intent and stuff 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19like that, I mean, you can look at these things in two 1 different ways. You can say, "I'm going to use my 2 authority. And I'm going to use the rules and 3 regulation, the tools that the United States needs to 4 be in the United Sates, the country. And I'm going to 5 use them for a good intent or I'm going to use them 6 for self-interest intent." You know what I'm saying?
7 I mean, just because you're following the 8 rules doesn't say it's right. Just because you're 9 following the procedure doesn't say it's right.
10 We're astonishing, smart people, all of 11 us, and stuff. You know, I've studied a lot about the 12 brain and the stuff that goes on inside our brains and 13 the different levels in our brain that work 14 altogether. They've got specific areas. Then they're 15 all connected holistically and they operate the same 16 kind of -- it's amazing how smart we are and even the 17 stupid ones, the most stupid ones, of us.
18 I'm not making fun of disability or 19 anything like that, but we're astonishing, our ability 20 to do things and set the course right and figure out 21 who we finally are and then do the right thing.
22 You know, I've seen this so many different 23 times. I see the worst. And I also see the 24 astonishing ability that us humans have to be smart, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20to figure out the small events that are erupting and 1 to interact with it and make our lives better. What 2 is going on now is -- I don't know what we're doing.
3 We're following the rules.
4 What is that new movie that just came out, 5 The Adjustment Bureau or whatever it is, and stuff 6 like that, where a man and a woman meet each other and 7 they start liking each other and then The Adjustment 8 Bureau doesn't want them to stay together, get to know 9 each other because it will change the course of 10 history. 11 Well, you know -- and then you find out 12 they're just following the rules, right? These guys, 13 these Adjustment Bureau people, saints if you want to 14 call them that, are just following the rules. And 15 nobody knows why they are following the rules. And, 16 you know, they're happy following the rules but why?
17 To what end and stuff? And, you know, we follow the 18 rules to make our lives better. And we have to start 19 thinking about that, the rules, regulations, 20 procedures, and stuff.
21 We're better than what this shows, what 22 the stuff with Palisades shows and Vermont Yankee and 23 Entergy and H. B. Robinson. I mean, I don't know.
24 With everybody's education and stuff, we're better 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21than what is going on here in the nuclear industry.
1 And we've got so much consequences up in 2 front of us if we don't screw our heads on right.
3 We're either losing our fleet now or having an energy 4 problem. And when it gets deep enough that we have to 5 -- a false sense in the nuclear industry more that 6 we're not going to be prepared. We're not going to 7 have the credibility to do what is in our national 8 interest.
9 You know, people call me anti-nuke and 10 stuff like that, but, you know, I am an anti-nuke.
11 Sometimes I'm the best and the most pro-nuclear person 12 in the United States because I am just trying to do 13 what is right and bring attention to what is going on 14 here. 15 And to figure out -- you know, Entergy has 16 to kind of figure out what is going on with all of 17 these plants. They have to be forthright about it and 18 explain to us what is going on so we all have a role 19 and a fix on what is going on and stuff.
20 You know, we live in the United States.
21 We are an open democracy. We are supposed to not be 22 hidden behind barriers. What makes our country great, 23 one thing is our Constitution. And that allows us to 24 see what is going on in the government. And I think 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22that is a way of life.
1 You know, we are not supposed to be hidden 2 by corporate secrecy and individual secrecy. What 3 makes our nation great is everybody can see what is 4 going on. I know we are kind of a little bit bound, 5 but I'm telling you that is what is beautiful about 6 the United States is transparency, being able to see 7 everything, being involved in our nation and every 8 component of it, our energy and stuff.
9 And a lot of this stuff seems to be more 10 and more from us, and we can't see what is going on.
11 And we can't help you guys if we can't see what is 12 going on. We can't help you guys straighten out.
13 And I think that is part of the role of 14 being in the United States, that, you know, you have 15 private enterprise and we get to see what is going on.
16 And we kind of make a decision on the direction of our 17 nation and stuff. And, you know, I worry about that 18 we can't see what is going on anymore.
19 And, you know, I have done this 2.206 20 business so many times. You know what my big problem 21 is. I don't have access to the real facts. Sometimes 22 I hear it from employees. Most of the times I read 23 the inspection report and stuff like that.
24 But I know I am only getting five percent 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23of the world as far as I worked in the industry. I 1 know more than most, you know, what the 95 percent of 2 the stuff that is going on that is not reported and 3 stuff like that. I know that. And I'm sure the NRC 4 knows that they are only getting a view of five 5 percent of the utilities world. I know that it is 6 just too complicated.
7 And I want everybody to be aware we don't 8 have a perfect vision of what is going on in the 9 Palisades plant. And that worries me because I think 10 if we knew what was going on, number one, Entergy 11 would behave better.
12 Number two, if we knew what was going on, 13 we would make them straighten out not because we hate 14 them or we're punishing them or they're on them but 15 because we all want to be -- we all want to belong to 16 a country and we all want to be doing better and doing 17 well. I mean, that is my vision of the United States.
18 So, you know, I never -- you know, the 19 VT-2 bothers me particularly with this, the VT-2.
20 Your last inspection report, you had a VT-2 21 inspection. They didn't do the inspection according 22 to ASME. That is the visual inspection on the reactor 23 vessel or the control rod drive mechanisms. And then 24 the next inspection report, they're having procedure 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24problems on the VT-2.
1 You know, like I said, most plants take 2 pictures of all of this. And so, you know, you have 3 got a visual representation of what is going on.
4 I didn't read it. Like I told you, I've 5 seen at other plants they take pictures. And I'm 6 surprised that with Palisades, they're not taking 7 pictures of the inspection of the core, stuff like 8 that. 9 You know, there's a feeling I have that if 10 you -- like me. I live my personal life. I'm pretty 11 transparent. You know, I explain what's going on.
12 I'll tell you the stupid things I'm doing and stuff.
13 You know, I think that's a better way to live.
14 And then people give me feedback and stuff 15 like that or they do. And some of it I fling over my 16 shoulder. Other stuff I listen to it. I think that's 17 the best way to be is to be open and honest and 18 interact with everybody, listen to everybody's point 19 of view, plus and minus, and take a ton of that.
20 You know, hiding, even if hiding is 21 according to the rules, I don't think that's good for 22 us. I think that allows us to do things that we 23 wouldn't normally do if people could see us. If we 24 had the idea that, "Oh, the whole community is going 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25to be watching me doing this VT-2 inspection, I'll 1 damn well get it straight. I damn well will get it 2 straight and look at the procedures and know my stuff 3 before I get out there and make an idiot of myself." 4 I just think this sense of secrecy for a 5 host of reasons and stuff like that, you know, some of 6 it is good, but I think it's gone so far overboard 7 nobody can see what is going on. And I think that is 8 the problem, a lot of the problem.
9 My wish is that everybody would come to 10 their senses, especially the NRC. We think that they 11 are criticized because of -- they're an independent 12 agency. In other words, they ain't worried about the 13 President. They are worried about a couple of 14 congressmen flailing around in the media and a couple 15 of House members holding up their budgets and 16 intimidating NRC commissioners. We think that the 17 framework makes the NRC more beholding to these 18 pipsqueak senators and House of Representatives people 19 than if they were if they were under the Executive 20 Branch. 21 So, you know, I think that the framework 22 of an independent agency -- you know, that was all 23 made during another era. And it was a dirty era. And 24 I think we would be better honestly if the agency was 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26under the Executive Branch.
1 So I'm hoping everybody comes to their 2 senses, Entergy and the NRC, and, you know, hope for 3 that day that everybody would come to their senses and 4 we would have something out there that we would all be 5 proud of. We would all say, you know, "We did it" or 6 "We came back from so far. And we were so deep in the 7 hole. And we came back such a long distance. And 8 we're so strong now." 9 So, anyways, I thank you very much for 10 giving me this opportunity. I hope you listen to me.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. At this time does 13 anyone here at headquarters have any questions for Mr.
14 Mulligan?
15 (No response.)
16 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Does any of the 17 headquarters staff on the phone have any questions for 18 Mr. Mulligan?
19 MR. GARRY: No, Steve Garry does not.
20 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. What about the 21 region? Does the region have any questions for Mr.
22 Mulligan?
23 MR. GIESSNER: Jack Giessner. No 24 questions from the region at this time.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. Before I conclude 1 the meeting, members of the public may provide 2 comments regarding the petition and ask questions 3 about the 2.206 process. However, as stated at the 4 opening, the purpose of this meeting is not to provide 5 an opportunity for the petitioner or the public to 6 question or examine the Petition Review Board 7 regarding the merits of the petition request.
8 Is there any member of the public that 9 wishes to make a comment?
10 (No response.)
11 CHAIRMAN QUAY: I don't think any were 12 identified, but I heard some beeps. I don't know if 13 someone got on.
14 Okay. Mr. Mulligan, thank you for taking 15 time to provide the NRC staff with clarifying 16 information on the petition you have submitted.
17 Before we close, does the Court Reporter 18 need any additional information for the meeting 19 transcript?
20 THE REPORTER: Hi. This is the Court 21 Reporter. I just want to provide Mr. Chawla with my 22 e-mail address so he can send me a list of the 23 participants.
24 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Please. I will go 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28ahead and write it down.
1 THE REPORTER: Okay. My e-mail address is 2 kjgamin@gmail.com.
3 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Let me just repeat 4 it.. Kjgamin@gmail.com?
5 THE REPORTER: That's right.
6 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. I will provide you the 7 list of the people, participants here.
8 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
9 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Thanks.
10 CHAIRMAN QUAY: With that, then, this 11 meeting is concluded. And we will be terminating the 12 phone connection.
13 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you very much.
14 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Thank you.
15 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 16 concluded at 1:37 p.m.)
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24