ML120860551
| ML120860551 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 03/19/2012 |
| From: | Division of Operating Reactor Licensing |
| To: | Mahesh Chawla Plant Licensing Branch III |
| Chawla M, NRR/DORL, 415-8371 | |
| References | |
| G20120022, EDATS: OEDO-2012-0028, OEDO-2012-0028, TAC ME7830, 2.206 | |
| Download: ML120860551 (45) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Palisades Nuclear Plant Docket Number: 50-255 Location:
telephone conference Date:
Monday, March 19, 2012 Work Order No.:
NRC-1513 Pages 1-44 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 4
PETITION REVIEW BOARD 5
+ + + + +
6 7
In the Matter of: :
8 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION :
9 OF MICHAEL MULLIGAN : Docket No. 50-255 10 WITH RESPECT TO :
11 PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT :
12 13 14 Monday, March 19, 2012 15 16 The above-entitled matter convened via 17 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m.,
18 Eastern Daylight Time.
19 20 BEFORE:
21 MICHAEL CHEOK, Board Chairman, Deputy 22 Director, Division of Engineering 23 MAHESH CHAWLA, Petition Manager, Project 24 Manager, Palisades Nuclear Plant 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2
NRC STAFF PRESENT:
1 ROBERT WOLFGANG, Mechanical Engineer, 2
Component Performance and Testing 3
Branch, Division of Engineering 4
BRETT KLUKAN, ESQ., Office of General Counsel 5
KIM MORGAN BUTLER, Acting Branch Chief, 6
Communications Branch 7
KERBY SCALES, Operations [Electrical] Engineer, 8
NRR 9
DAVE ALLEY, Acting Branch Chief, Piping and 10 NDE Branch 11 ANDREA RUSSELL, Agency 2.206 Coordinator 12 ROBERT LERCH, Project Engineer, Region III/
13 Division of Reactor Projects/Branch IV 14 15 ALSO PRESENT:
16 JEFF ERICKSON, Licensing, Entergy 17 MICHAEL MULLIGAN, Petitioner 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
(2:00 p.m.)
3 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to thank 4
everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mack 5
Chawla, and I am the NRC Project Manager for the 6
Palisades Nuclear Plant.
7 We are here today to allow the Petitioner, 8
Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 9
regarding the 2.206 petition dated January 10, 2012.
10 I am also the Petition Manager for the 11 petition. The Petition Review Board Chairman is Mike 12 Cheok.
13 As part of the Petition Review Board's or 14 PRB's review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 15 requested this opportunity to address the PRB. This 16 meeting is scheduled from 2:00 to 3:00 p.m. Eastern 17 Time. The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 18 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a Court 19 Reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 20 the petition. The transcript will also be made 21 publicly available.
22 I would like to open this meeting with 23 introductions. As we go around the room, please be 24 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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the office you work for within the NRC for the record.
1 I will start off. Again, my name is Mack Chawla. I 2
am the Petition Manager for this petition. I will go 3
around the room here.
4 MR. CHEOK: I'm Mike Cheok. I am the 5
Deputy Division Director in the Division of 6
Engineering in NRR.
7 MR. WOLFGANG: Bob Wolfgang. I'm a 8
Mechanical Engineer, Component Performance and Testing 9
Branch in the Division of Engineering in NRR.
10 MR. KLUKAN: My name is Brett Klukan. I 11 am the attorney-advisor to the panel from the Office 12 of General Counsel.
13 MS. BUTLER: My name is Kim Morgan Butler.
14 I am the Acting Branch Chief of the Communications 15 Branch in NRR.
16 MR. SCALES: Hi. My name is Kerby Scales.
17 I'm an Operations
[Electrical]
Engineer in the 18 Division of Engineering, NRR.
19 MR. ALLEY: Dave Alley. I'm a Senior 20 Materials Engineer. I'm Acting Branch Chief for the 21 Piping and NDE Branch.
22 MS.
RUSSELL:
Andrea
- Russell, 2.206 23 Coordinator for NRR, and Agency 2.206 Coordinator.
24 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. We have completed 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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introductions at NRC headquarters. At this time, are 1
there any NRC participants from headquarters on the 2
phone?
3 (No response.)
4 Hearing
- none, are there any NRC 5
participants from the regional office on the phone?
6 MR. LERCH: Yes. My name is Robert Lerch, 7
L-E-R-C-H. I am the Project Engineer for the 8
Palisades Branch in Region III, which is in Lisle, 9
10 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Are there any 11 representatives for the licensee on the phone?
12 MR. ERICKSON: Yes. My name is Jeff 13 Erickson from the Licensing Department at Palisades 14 Nuclear Plant.
15 MR. CHAWLA: Mr. Mulligan, would you 16 please introduce yourself for the record?
17 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan. I'm a 18 whistleblower, and I live two miles from Vermont 19 Yankee.
20 MR. CHAWLA: It is not required for 21 members of the public to introduce themselves for this 22 call. However, if there are any members of the public 23 on the phone that wish to do so at this time, please 24 state your name for the record.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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(No response.)
1 Hearing none, I think there are no members 2
of the public here.
3 I would like to emphasize that we each 4
need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 5
Court Reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
6 If you do have something that you would like to say, 7
please first state your name for the record.
8 For those dialing into the meeting, please 9
remember to mute your phones to minimize any 10 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 11 a mute button, this can be done by pressing the key 12 star 6. To unmute, press star 6 again. Thank you.
13 Before turning it over, I just want to 14 verify the Court Reporter is on the line. Is the 15 Court Reporter online?
16 THE COURT REPORTER: I am on the line.
17 MR. CHAWLA: Oh, you are on. Thank you.
18 At this time, I will turn it over to the 19 PRB Chairman, Mike Cheok.
20 MR. CHEOK: Okay. Thanks. Good afternoon 21 again. Welcome to this meeting regarding the 2.206 22 petition submitted by Mr. Mulligan. I would like to 23 first share some background on our process.
24 Section 2.206 of Title 10 of the Code of 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 1
the primary mechanism for the public to request 2
enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
3 This process permits anyone to petition 4
NRC to take enforcement-type action related to the NRC 5
licensees or licensed activities. Depending on the 6
results of its evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 7
or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 8
appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
9 The NRC staff's guidance for the 10 disposition of a 2.206 petition request is in 11 Management Directive 8.11, which is publicly 12 available.
13 Now, the purpose of today's meeting is to 14 give the Petitioner an opportunity to provide any 15 additional explanation or support for the petition 16 before the Petition Review Board's final consideration 17 and recommendation.
18 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 19 an opportunity for the Petitioner to question or 20 examine the PRB on the merits or the issues presented 21 in the petition request.
22 No decisions regarding the merits of this 23 petition will be made at this meeting. Following this 24 meeting, the Petition Review Board will conduct its 25
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internal deliberations. The outcome of this internal 1
meeting will be discussed with the Petitioner.
2 The Petition Review Board typically 3
consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 4
Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 5
petition manager and a PRB coordinator. Other members 6
of the board are determined by the NRC staff based on 7
the content of the information in the petition 8
request.
9 At this time, I would like to introduce 10 the Board. Again, I am Mike Cheok, the Petition 11 Review Board Chairman. Mack Chawla is the Petition 12 Manager for the petition under discussion today.
13 Andrea Russell is the office PRB coordinator.
14 Our technical staff includes: Kerby 15 Scales from the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's 16 Electric Engineering Branch; Bob Wolfgang from the 17 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Component 18 Performance and Testing Branch; Dave Alley from the 19 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Piping and NDE 20 Branch; Jack Giessner, Branch Chief, Branch IV, 21 Region III, Division of Reactor Projects; Robert 22 Lerch, Project Engineer, Branch IV, from Region III, 23 Division of Reactor Projects; Melvin Holmberg, Senior 24 Reactor Inspector, Engineering Branch I, Region III, 25
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Division of Reactor Safety.
1 We also obtain advice from our Office of 2
General Counsel, represented by Brett Klukan.
3 As described in our process, the NRC staff 4
may ask clarifying questions in order to better 5
understand the Petitioner's presentation and to reach 6
a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 7
Petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 8
process.
9 I would next like to summarize the scope 10 of the petition under consideration and the NRC's 11 activities to date.
12 On January 10,
- 2012, Mr.
Mulligan 13 submitted to the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding 14 the Palisades Nuclear Power Plant. In this petition 15 request, Mr. Mulligan is requesting immediate shutdown 16 of Palisades Nuclear Power Plant and all Entergy 17 nuclear power plants.
18 In
- addition, he has requested the 19 following actions, some of which are repeated from his 20 previous petitions: 1) replacement of all Palisades 21 management and Entergy corporate nuclear senior staff 22 prior to the plant startup;
- 2) assignment of 23 additional NRC inspectors at PNP and other Entergy 24 plants; 3) formation of a local public oversight panel 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 around every nuclear power plant site; 4) forming an 1
emergency NRC senior official oversight panel with the 2
aims of reforming the reactor oversight process, or 3
the ROP; 5) forming a public national oversight panel 4
to report on NRC activities; 6) performing an analysis 5
of the cost of numerous inspection findings at Entergy 6
plants; 7) an evaluation of NRC Region III personnel 7
resources; 8) a request that PNP to remain shut down 8
until replacement of three service water pumps; 9
- 9) Entergy plants stay shut down until completion of 10 all training, all procedures, and all technical and 11 maintenance backlogs are updated and corrected, and 12 all reports and safety processes are completed and 13 implemented, including Fukushima emergency power 14 system procedures and records; 10) request for a 15 report on the failure of the NRC to prevent the 16 Palisades DC bus event; 11) the NRC to create a system 17 for reporting of coupling failures, degradations, and 18 near misses; 12) replacement of the present NRC 19 Commission, including the Chairman, by the U.S.
20 President; and
- 13) an independent outside 21 investigation over the insufficient process outcomes 22 of the 2008 and 2009 Palisades security falsification.
23
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 internally to discuss Mr. Mulligan's request for 1
immediate action. The PRB denied the request for 2
immediate action on the basis that there was no 3
additional immediate safety concern at the plant or to 4
the health and safety of the public.
5 The request for the immediate action to 6
shut down Palisades and other Entergy plants did not 7
have the adequate basis.
8 The Petitioner cited numerous equipment 9
- failures, made statements of falsifications of 10 records, and finds the ROP process to be inadequate.
11 However, the Petitioner did not provide additional 12 comments for NRC to consider. The staff is aware of 13 the information provided in the petition, and the 14 issues and events are being reviewed through other NRC 15 processes.
16 The Petitioner was informed on January 24, 17 2012, of the PRB's decision to deny your request for 18 immediate action. On January 24, 2012, the Petition 19 Manager contacted the Petitioner to discuss the 10 CFR 20 2.206 process and to offer the Petitioner an 21 opportunity to address the PRB by phone or in person.
22 The Petitioner requested to address the 23 PRB by phone prior to its internal meeting to make the 24 initial recommendation to accept or reject the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 petition for review.
1 On January 31,
- 2012, the Petitioner 2
addressed the PRB via teleconference. During this 3
conference, the Petitioner did not provide new 4
information regarding the petition. The official 5
transcript of the proceedings of this conference is 6
publicly available in ADAMS under Session [Accession]
7 Number ML120370395.
8 On February 22,
- 2012, the PRB met 9
internally to discuss the petition and the 10 supplemental information provided in the 11 teleconference. The PRB's initial recommendation is 12 that the petition does not meet the criteria for 13
- review, because the Petitioner did not provide 14 sufficient facts to warrant further inquiry.
15 The Petitioner references inspection 16 reports to demonstrate that there is a recurring 17 problem. However, the Petitioner did not provide any 18 additional facts beyond what the staff has already 19 inspected and documented in those inspection reports.
20 In addition, some of the items in the 21 petition request we [were] reviewed by the NRC in the 22 2.206 process for a previous petition filed by the 23 Petitioner on February 22,
- 2011, and closed on 24 April 20,
- 2011, under ADAMS Session Number 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 ML111010590. This meets criteria 2 for rejecting the 1
2.206 petitions under the 10 CFR 2.206 process.
2 On March 12, 2012, the Petitioner was 3
informed of the PRB's initial recommendation not to 4
accept the petition for review for the reasons stated 5
above. The Petitioner was also given a second 6
opportunity to address the PRB.
7 On March 14, 2012, the Petitioner informed 8
the Petition Manager via email regarding accepting 9
this opportunity to address the PRB. Our phone call 10 today is for this -- is for you, Mr. Mulligan, to 11 address the Petition Review Board.
12 As a reminder for phone participants, 13 please identify yourself if you make any remarks, as 14 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 15 transcript, and this will be made publicly available.
16 Thank you.
17 Mr. Mulligan, I will turn this over to you 18 to allow you the opportunity to provide any 19 information you believe the PRB should consider as 20 part of this petition.
21 Mike?
22 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you, sir. I just --
23 as far as I didn't give enough information, well, you 24 know, I am really not talking -- really talking like a 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 set of rules, a set -- a language type of thing, you 1
know. I grew up in a low income project, and I kind 2
of -- I talk in a funny way to most people, and stuff 3
like that.
4 And so -- and I say "you know" a lot, and 5
stuff like that, and really kind of stuff that really 6
shouldn't be -- you know, I read my transcripts and it 7
drives me crazy. I can't stop it. But it's the kind 8
of language I grew up in, and stuff like that.
9 As far as your rules and regulations, 10 again, you know, you want me to -- it's kind of 11 language thing. It doesn't really mean that the NRC 12 is more right than me, and stuff like that. It's just 13 you won't accept my language. I'm painting a picture, 14 and you just won't accept it. You kind of rule me 15 out, and stuff like that.
16 You know, at the end of the day, we are 17 going to find out either you guys are right or I'm 18 right, and I hope I'm wrong, really, when it comes 19 down to it. So a lot of times I can present things in 20 a different way that you people -- you know, I might 21 present your information in a different way that you 22 guys don't see it, and it is just as good as bringing 23 in new information, but it doesn't meet your rules.
24 I could engage your hearts and I could 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 change your hearts or something like that and it's the 1
same thing, you know, and see something a little bit 2
different, acting a different way, be a lot better, 3
and stuff like that. And that is just as good as 4
meeting your rules.
5 I don't think the 2.206 -- you know, I 6
have always said that I would know the NRC is 7
beginning to heal themselves if they changed the 2.206 8
process.
9 As far as a message to President Obama, we 10 should create a TVA-like authority and take over the 11 25 Fukushima-like nuclear plants in the USA -- the 12 MARK I's, and those kind of stuff. And we should take 13 them over, and we should shut them down as quick as 14 possible and come back out with a building program to 15 rebuild all of them 25 plants with new plants. And we 16 should make them identical -- identical procedures, 17 equipment, and stuff like that.
18 And I think we could operate those plants 19 a lot cheaper than the way these utilities are 20 operating it. And I think that would be -- you know, 21 it would contrast the way the utilities and their 22 competition type of stuff -- I think you could do --
23 you could make a lot of electricity a lot cheaper than 24 those guys. I think we should have that as the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 national plan.
1 The NRC talked about the themes, H.B.
2 Robinson, the Fort Calhoun electrical system, and 3
Palisades, DC and the service water pumps. These are 4
my themes -- they are -- 1) their obsolescent 5
equipment; 2) we watch gross equipment degradation and 6
breakdowns; 3) the employees begin duct taping and 7
bailing wire dying equipment;
- 4) the equipment 8
operation collapses; and 5) the accident happens, like 9
the DC accident.
10 Okay. The OECD and the NRC -- we are 11 talking about PWR mid-loop operations. That is when 12 you drain down a PWR to do an operation just below the 13
-- or just above -- probably quite a bit above, but 14 not the same as normal operations. During outages you 15 drain down the loop in order to do certain maintenance 16 issues.
17 And according to the NRC and the OECD, 18 usually there is a lot less than an hour for onset of 19 boiling. You worry -- everybody worries about 20 vortexing and air ingestion, to talk about you risk 21 irreversible damage to the RHR pumps and cavitations.
22 PWRs is the single risk determinant 23 configuration there is. The NRC terms it as a high-24 risk operation.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 In 2010, on a DC root cause, coming up to 1
the 2010 outage, they discovered, you know, that green 2
light on the equipment hatch. And along with that 3
they were getting set to repair the DC breakers, and 4
you replace them or inspect them, and stuff like that.
5 They were getting set up for that late 2010 outage, 6
and this 2010 outage -- you know, it set up the 7
conditions for the red finding with the DC system 8
accident.
9 And I know this -- I'm reading over out of 10 Edward Johnson's letter to the NRC. He is the guy 11 that walked out of the control room during shutdown 12 operations. This happened -- well, the letter is 13 dated May 6th.
14 And, I mean, what I see here from what is 15 going on here, let alone what the individual did, 16 which everybody is missing is what happened on that 17 night. I don't understand why the NRC didn't have a 18 separate investigation on it.
19 And like I've said before, the NRC should 20 have stepped in on this DC business. At every step of 21 the way they could have stepped in, and they could 22 have rung Palisades' and Entergy's bell, and they 23 could have changed the events that later happened, and 24 stuff like that, you know.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 I don't understand. If we take it as this 1
is the way the regulations are, is this acceptable 2
outcome of the regulations? Is this the acceptable --
3 you know, can we have another Palisades, you know, 4
because the regulations aren't going to be changed, or 5
the behavior of the NRC is not going to be changed?
6 Are we going to get another plant that is just like 7
Palisades, and they are going to ramp up and get into 8
worse and worse trouble, and finally we have to wait 9
until a big event comes up?
10 I don't see anything in the public realm 11 recently what Palisades are doing any different, and 12 stuff like that. I mean, so is that the natural 13 outcome of the rules and regulations? [I mean] The 14 rules and regulations and the behavior in the NRC 15 creates that kind of an outcome as far as I am 16 concerned.
17 So here is this description of the event 18 of that night. I'm not going to read the whole thing, 19 of course, but I am going to read parts of it.
20 Palisades was near the end of the refueling outage 21 which was on course to be our most successful ever due 22 to the short duration and the large number of major 23 projects completed.
24 Most successful ever and short duration, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 you know, and you see all through this thing one 1
problem after another popping up. And they are 2
reducing -- I mean, that is what they are doing here 3
is reducing the level of the reactor and the 4
pressurizer and the steam generators, and stuff like 5
that. They are drastically reducing water on top of 6
-- having less water on top of the vessel as far as to 7
-- you are increasing the chance of losing water 8
drastically during this operation.
9 And everybody is talking about short 10 duration and large number of major products completed.
11 I mean, that is -- you know, that might be the problem 12 here, you know, there is just too many projects going 13 on, and you never can complete the big projects, you 14 never are going to have these big projects.
15 Maybe you need something like, you know, 16 every five years or every 10 years, you know, extended 17 shutdown to have these guys do their big projects 18 instead of, you know, always being rushed, always --
19 instead of refurbishing all of the DC breakers they 20 get a
chance -- wait a minute. Instead of 21 refurbishing eight breakers, they get to refurbish all 22 of the breakers, or get to replace them and stuff.
23 Why is this -- it's crazy, all of this rushing around 24 and juggling five or six things at the same time.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 They are lowering the reactor vessel water 1
here, one of the most critical operations of a nuclear 2
power plant. And I read about the different things 3
that were going on and the EHC problems and the 4
service water problems, and stuff like that. Are you 5
guys crazy, having all of this stuff going on in a 6
control room when there is such a critical project 7
going on and an inspection report is not issued and 8
you are not moving the rest of the utilities.
9 You guys are doing the same thing here.
10 You guys, you know, are juggling too many things at 11 one time and losing track. And this thing here --
12 they lose sight of water. At points in this thing, 13 they don't know what the levels of the water is. They 14 have reason to believe that they have lost the level 15 of the water above the reactor.
16 And it's startling, and the implications 17 could, you know -- you can imagine them guys -- you 18 know, you see the level going away and decreasing.
19 You say, oh man, this is odd, this is not right. And 20 you say to yourself, what is -- you know, the guy up 21 there says, where is the end of this? It's probably a 22 vacuum -- drawing vacuum on it. It is probably 23 because we're drawing vacuum on it, or we could have a 24 leak. How do we know?
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 You know, when you're up in the control 1
room, you don't really know what is going on there.
2 You start making assumptions. You don't know if it's 3
the vacuum for sure. You have a cause, but you can't 4
prove it, and stuff like that. And, I mean, it must 5
really upset people being up in the control room, 6
having that type of thing.
7 We were about to enter our third reduced 8
inventory period to perform a vacuum fill -- perform a 9
vacuum fill operation. Vacuum fill operation -- that 10 is for Palisades seals. Probably nobody in the --
11 only Palisades does this because they got bum seals, 12 CR -- control rod drive mechanism seals.
13 And you can watch how, you know, those 14 seals problems that they can't fix, you know, and see 15 have seen this time and again with these seals 16 problems. You know, it drives up complexity in the 17 control room. It drives up complexity in the -- at 18 the busy time of an outage, and stuff like that. You 19 know, when are people going to sit back and say, you 20 know, maybe there is too much complexity.
21 People up there in the control room can 22 only handle so much complexity and surprises, and 23 stuff like that. When are people going to get sober 24 and think about these things and say, you know, we can 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 never allow our plant to be so confused up in the 1
control room again. We have to put some sort of 2
limits on what they can do during these outages, and 3
stuff like that.
4 And this whole thing sets up -- you know, 5
what this poor guy -- I consider him a hero, because 6
he wrote it up, and he has given us a window. He has 7
given us an opportunity. We should have had this 8
opportunity back in -- this should have been released 9
back in 2010, or it should have been in an inspection 10 report, and we are just getting wind of it, and stuff 11 like that. We should have been -- we should have had 12 this window.
13 This is a very infrequent window we get to 14 see what an operating plant, especially during an 15 outage, happens. And this kind of thing sets up what 16 happens later on with the red finding, and stuff like 17 that. If somebody would have stepped in, people could 18 have seen what was going on, could have wondered in 19 their minds, and the NRC could have said, you know, 20 it's time to put our foot down.
21 It's time to put some sanity and sobriety 22 in the operation of these nuclear plants, or of this 23 particular nuclear plant, and straightened them out 24 and reduced the chaos that is going on in the control 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 room and stuff.
1 So the vacuum fill procedure was 2
relatively new for Palisades, having successfully 3
performed it for the first time during the previous 4
refueling outage. I mean, they only did this once 5
before. It is probably a one-off for the industry, 6
and they are doing it again. It is a procedure to 7
lower the water level in the reactor to the middle of 8
the hot leg, and then draw a vacuum on the primary 9
coolant system to evacuate air and other non-10 condensable gases.
11 We devised this procedure in an effort to 12 improve plant reliability; specifically, to extend the 13 life of the control room drive mechanisms, pressure 14 boundary seals.
15 And so, you know, again, they've got a 16 defect with their seals, and, you know, have abnormal 17 leaks in their containment, and they are forced to 18 shut down, and they are forced to over and over again, 19 you know, is this a seal going, or they might assume 20 it's a seal going and it be a leak someplace else that 21 is obscure. There are so many risks involved with 22 this.
23 And so they drain down to the hot leg, and 24 then they are talking about a high temperature alarm 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 and electrical hydraulic control, EHC. You know, they 1
are draining down, and they've got a turbine alarm 2
that they are worrying about.
3 They are talking about vent testing of the 4
EHC system, and then they've got -- they're worrying 5
about the temperature of the EHC system because of low 6
flow. And then, Mr. Johnson is talking -- is saying 7
that the - actually [I heard that], the reactor head 8
did not have a vent path. I heard that the reactor 9
head did not have a vent path.
10 You're going to find out later on that it 11 didn't have a vent path. And, you know, so -- in this 12 important procedure, they don't got their ducks in a 13 row. They don't know what -- they don't know about 14 what is going to be the vent path and stuff, you know.
15 They are winging it. They are guessing. They're 16 starting this procedure and they're guessing it.
17 It's a procedure they just started, the 18 second time doing it, and they have reduced inventory 19 three times during the outage. I mean, it's kind of 20 mind-boggling when you think about it and stuff. They 21 were so out of control, and the idea of this midloop 22 operation being so riskful and so close to boiling, if 23 somebody loses it and stuff.
24 And they don't know what the vent path is.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 The guys hears that they don't have a vent path. They 1
start the procedure and nobody says, is the vent path 2
established and stuff. I mean, this is just so -- so 3
against everything it stands for as far as nuclear 4
power plant and the operation of the control room of a 5
power plant. It is shocking. I can hardly even talk 6
about it.
7 We intend to line up the drain and 8
commence, but the PC level indication did not respond 9
as expected and we stopped the drain. Reactor water 10 level was out of control. It is behaving different 11 than they expected it. I mean, alarm -- somebody is 12 saying, you know, trying to back out of this thing.
13 We are -- it is all confusing. They are 14 doing this in the middle of the night. We need to put 15 a stop to this and get our shit together before we 16 start and know what is going on. How come nobody 17 stepped in there, and stuff, besides this guy getting 18 upset later on?
19 During the period we had the non-licensed 20 operators troubleshooting their problem by verifying 21 level, glass, and vent path. You know, this is a 22 reactor vessel level, reactor vessel -- Fukushima.
23 Concurrent with the PCS drain, most of the control 24 room staff was at the infrequently performed test and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 evolution brief for the vacuum flow work. Half of the 1
staff was missing during the middle of the night as 2
they are reducing level in the vessel. Where is the 3
conscience?
4 They had more issues in the ECC -- EHC 5
system. Mr. Johnson is reviewing prints, and he is 6
worrying about being distracted, and the PCS drain 7
valve, having more issues with the EHC system. But he 8
is buy [busy] -- listen to this, but he is busy 9
overseeing the PCS drain. He is worrying about the 10 EHC system, but he is worried about the PCS drain.
11 It's shocking. It's shocking that they 12 are doing this drain down, and that should be the only 13 thing that they should be doing. That is common 14 sense, that that is -- you know, it is such a riskful 15 endeavor that everything else should stop. And nobody 16 has the brains enough to put a stop to all of this 17 other stuff that is going on there. You know?
18 And you hear him talking about the most 19 successful outage, and we did the most things, and 20 this set them up for the DC -- you know, the DC short 21 business. And it set them -- and I can hear, you 22 know, Entergy officials talking in that meeting -- in 23 that meeting talking about the, you know, bad culture 24 and degradation of culture and people did bad things.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 It's shocking. It's absolutely shocking that the NRC, 1
you know, didn't have an inspection report on this.
2 And we are not hearing it out of the NRC's 3
mouth. We're hearing it out of this poor guy that did 4
wrong, but he is doing the right thing in the end by 5
exposing this.
6 So the ECS -- EHC low level alarm comes in 7
again. I'm convinced that it is -- I am concerned 8
it's a leak. Then they find a leak on the EHC system.
9 This is -- and quote, "This is all happening while the 10 PCS level indication troubleshooting was in progress."
11 This was all happening while the PCS level indication 12 troubleshooting was going on. They didn't know what 13 the level was.
14 That's what he is saying. In the control 15 room, we didn't know what the vessel level was. And 16 we are playing around with the EHC systems and service 17 water systems. Where is the NRC? Eventually, 18 maintenance workers removed the temporary flange 19 covers on the reactor head for better vent path.
20 You know, I kind of -- you know, I don't 21 like that wording "for better" -- you know, like there 22 was some vent path in there, you know? And he just 23 said -- remember, earlier he said that -- he said 24 there was no vent path, in the meeting and stuff, and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 now it comes -- you know, it is kind of watery 1
language that, oh, we had half a vent path, so we were 2
-- you know, Entergy lawyers must be involved in this.
3 This was all happening while the PCS level 4
indication troubleshooting was going on. I just can't 5
believe that. Eventually maintenance workers -- yeah, 6
I already went through that.
7 They are fiddling around with 3,100 8
gallons per minute RHR flow -- 3,100 gallons per 9
minute in order to keep the reactor stable with the 10 decay heat flow through there, 3,100 gallons per 11 minute. That gives you a clue how much decay heat has 12 to be removed to keep that so stable. That's a 13 tremendous amount of heat removal right there.
14 Then, we began several hours of trying to 15 complete the PCS vacuum fill, but a number of issues 16 accomplished that work. The previous time we 17 performed the vacuum fill procedure it worked 18 flawlessly, but this time it was different. The 19 vacuum did not raise in the expected manner.
20 You know, and I can hear this -- you know, 21 I can hear the EHC system alarms in the background, 22 you know, the service water alarms going off. And 23 these guys don't know what is going on with the 24 reactor vessel. It is mind-boggling, if you have any 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 experience.
1 The vacuum did not rise in the manner 2
expected, instead of a smooth trend raising vacuum.
3 You know, we don't have vents on. We don't -- I heard 4
that we don't have any vents on, and things aren't 5
acting right, and find out that we made a vent path 6
eventually by hunting and pecking around.
7 And now here we go, we are still going --
8 they are still going -- PCS pressure changed radically 9
and vacuum developed much slower than anticipated.
10 There was indication of a leak somewhere that was 11 intermittently vented, allowing pressure to leak or 12 equalize throughout the system.
13 And then, while they were troubleshooting 14 the problem with the vacuum fill, we received a low 15 critical service water alarm centered procedure, loss 16 of service water.
17 The CRS steps in and tells Mr. Johnson to 18 communicate more effectively. The CRS should have 19 stopped in -- should have stepped in and had a stop 20 work order, everybody stops until we figure -- until 21 we get -- until we, number one, only pay attention to 22 what the level is doing, and make sure that we have 23 adequate procedures. And we don't have to make the 24 procedures up as we go, and that is what they should 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 have done, instead of talking to this one guy and 1
stuff like that. It's mind-boggling.
2 And the work control center sent out a 3
lube oil stroke PM for -- of the main lube -- oh, it 4
bugs me. I showed him the one-minute cooldown rate 5
trend on the Palisades plant [computer]and said there 6
may be some vortexing or other flow phenomena that I 7
did not understand. You know, he is worrying they 8
lost the primary -- the coolant system level. He had 9
reason to believe -- he didn't know what the level was 10 on top of the fuel, and now he is worried the water 11 was so low that there might be vortexing.
12 Remember, I told you that the NRC and the 13 EDOC -- whatever it is -- talking about damaging the 14 RHR pumps, and stuff like that? He is worrying about 15 it starting to vortex and get air in the RHR pumps.
16 You know, you might not be able to get them back on 17 for quite a while, and stuff like that.
18 Vortexing -- worried about vortexing, 19 worried about the lube oil. What about the lube oil?
20 What about the turbine lube oil that they are fiddling 21 around? Even worrying about that. I mean, I am being 22 ridiculous here, because they are worrying about the 23 turbine lube oil while they are worrying about the 24 vortexing on top of the reactor water level.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 Suddenly, however, DC level indication 1
sharply fell to an evolution below the bottom of the 2
hot leg. We immediately stopped the evolution and 3
broke vacuum. So we were obviously not that -- they 4
recovered that, but they -- you know, again, they 5
didn't know what the level was. Nobody knew where the 6
level was in the operating reactor, less than one hour 7
away from boiling.
8 And at that point, the level was bobbling 9
around. Is it because of vacuum, or did something got 10 let go in the primary -- you never know. You never 11 know, you know? You've been in these for a while, and 12 you face these things. You know, you don't have 13 complete information, and you sit there -- what can it 14 be? It is probably the vacuum. We are fiddling 15 around with vacuum. It is probably that.
16 But you never can know if there is 17 something else -- a pipe breaking somewhere else or a 18 pipe breaking and you've got the big problems. And, 19 you know, it takes a while for it to settle out and 20 you really understand what caused the -- you know, 21 it's amazing, totally amazing, that they didn't know 22 where the level was for them two minutes. They would 23 never even tolerate a minute or two of not knowing 24 where the level was, having it bobble around, and 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 stuff like that.
1 And they are doing this for the seals.
2 You know, instead of getting the right seals or the 3
control rod drive mechanism seals fixed right, and 4
stuff like that, they are putting pressure and 5
complexity on employees in the control room at its 6
most critical point probably during an outage. And 7
all of this stuff going on and DC circuit breakers 8
supposed to be worked on and all of that sort of 9
stuff. And nobody ever really has enough time to 10 finish all the jobs, and stuff like -- it is insane.
11 And so that is -- that is an amazing 12 admission by somebody, and it has to come out that 13 way. It's just amazing.
14 You know, I talked about at the recent 15 meeting -- public meeting and stuff I says, you know, 16 risk assessment, everybody thinks risk assessment is 17 gone, and stuff like that. Well, you know, how come 18 you take risk assessments and throw them in on --
19 throwing them in the computer codes, and stuff like 20 that. How come you can't predict the outcome? How 21 come you can't predict what was going to happen to 22 Palisades, you know?
23 They are going to get into trouble. These 24 guys are in trouble, and the computers start alarming, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 and predicting what was going to -- you know, I'm just 1
saying with these risk assessments, you only can see 2
in the rear view mirror. Everybody knows that. And 3
you project this thing out that you can see in front 4
of the driving car, but you really can't see in front 5
of the car with risk perspectives.
6 You can -- a lot of this stuff happens, 7
and, you know, risk perspectives -- can't see it. And 8
you -- I think at the agency there is a false 9
impression that the risk perspectives can see in the 10 future, and it leaves that impression with people that 11 you are so safe because you see risk perspectives.
12 And none of this risk perspective stuff could see the 13 problems with Palisades or any plant, or any of the 14 plants that are in so much trouble.
15 And then, you -- some recent stuff, you 16 know, the main feed pump recirc valve, opening plant 17 trip, LER-2011-08, it talks about fuse holders, and 18 stuff like -- you know, it's not probable to me that 19 it happened like that, that the prongs -- you know, 20 you take -- what I was associated with is you get a 21 fuse holder, and it takes quite a bit of -- quite a 22 bit of effort to yank out a fuse on these fuses -- to 23 yank out the fuse, you know, because they are so tight 24 in the prongs, stuff -- it boggles the mind to think 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 that a guy could stick a fuse in there and it be loose 1
enough for him to not, you know, say, oh boy, 2
something is wrong with this and they've got to fix 3
this. They've got to get an electrician down here to 4
see the -- to fix this, to see what is going on and 5
stuff.
6 You know, and then you find out the fuse 7
- holder, you
- know, Palisades says that it is 8
repetitive. You know, it's an old plant, you know, 9
and who knows how many zillions of fuses have gone in 10 and out of them prongs, and stuff like that. And 11 then, you know, the -- then, the next question, you 12 know, is trying to figure out an association.
13 Well, you know, if these fuse holders are 14 so loose like that, you know, like Fort Calhoun, you 15 know, with their electrical system and their breakers 16 and stuff, you know, how much trouble -- how is their 17 breakers? That would be the next course. I wonder 18 how their breakers are. Are they old? You know, they 19 are an electric system.
20 Do their breakers need -- you know, is 21 this indicative of the rest of their breaker system, 22 you know? If they are putting so much wear and tear 23 on these fuses -- fuse holders by -- in and out of --
24 putting the fuses in and out, well, they must be doing 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 the same thing to all of the breakers.
1 So I would hope that, you know, you don't 2
wait until there are so many problems with your 3
breakers that -- I mean, those are the kind of 4
associations, you know. If you don't have any direct 5
evidence, that is the kind of thinking that keeps you 6
out of trouble is you make these fleeing associations 7
and you don't have any evidence to back it up.
8 You know, I think human intelligence is 9
just as worthy as evidence. It is higher than 10 evidence, you know, thinking and associations and 11 acting, you know -- acting to prevent things instead 12 of responding to events, accidents. I think that is 13 the gold standard.
14 I think you can screw up three or four 15 times with trying to look in the future, but you are 16 going to catch that big accident. And I think it is 17 worth it, and people should not always say, "I want 18 100 percent evidence. I want 300 percent evident 19 before I do anything." You know, I want people to use 20 their heads and their intelligence and have adequate 21 time to flip these things around in their heads.
22 And those are the kinds of things that, 23 you know, you engineering guys you want to see 24 equipment going and data, and stuff like that, and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 steel structures and flows and stuff. Those are smart 1
things, but, you know, there is other higher things, 2
you know, of associations and watching people's 3
behaviors and acting before they get into trouble, 4
those are the things that I think are more worthy than 5
evidence-based stuff.
6 So, you know, I'll tell you, with those --
7 you know, them prongs and that fuse, you know, that 8
just doesn't seem possible to me. I would want to 9
know if there was -- depends on what those fuses --
10 were they in the plant -- in a panel where nobody 11 could be around? Did somebody screw around while 12 nobody was looking and try and sabotage the plant, you 13 know? How do you know, and stuff -- so those are the 14 kind of things.
15 And to not ask those kind of questions on 16 this tells me that Palisades is not changing their 17 standards at all. It is a quick-to-do LER, and there 18 is no analysis on why it happened and an explanation 19 of why it happened. And we looked at all of these 20 different other breaker panels, and we checked the 21 fuse holders, and we checked all of the other 22 breakers.
23 And, you know, it is just -- it's 24 thoroughness. They threw out one of these incident 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 LERs with zero information on it just about, and 1
stuff, and it's the kind of stuff that we've seen in 2
the past that has not changed anything. It is the 3
kind of stuff that the NRC recently, in the last 4
couple of -- last month or two, is seeing.
5 We don't see -- we can't see -- we can't 6
see them changing the behaviors. We don't get any 7
information on the new mistakes they are making, and 8
stuff like that. And it worries us, it worries us 9
with the whole fleet of energy plants, unfortunately, 10 and stuff.
11 The annual assessment, cross-cutting 12 themes -- I'm almost done -- cross-cutting themes and 13 aspects of conservative assumptions, documentation, 14 procedures, and oversight. That is what the NRC --
15 the themes.
16 Cross-cutting -- the license determined 17 that the apparent cause was managers making decisions 18 based on meeting only minimum regulatory requirements.
19 Minimum regulatory requirements. I mean, how many 20 times -- how many decades have we heard that from 21 these, you know, corporations getting into trouble?
22 From Vermont Yankee to all of these 23 plants, and we always get down to -- they always slide 24 down to, you know, a bunch of people get into the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 theme of just meeting minimum regulator requirements.
1 I mean, that is the -- that should be proof positive 2
that a plant is going to get into an accident that is 3
going to scare the shit out of everybody, you know, 4
when they start doing that, when, you know, they get 5
into those -- well, you know, rules are -- metal 6
structures, and, you know, they are facts, they are 7
evidence, and, you know, I had -- you know, it is 8
proof positive.
9 All I've got to do is follow the -- do 10 what is required of me. I've got a set of rules, I've 11 got a concrete-hard structure in front of me with 12 these rules. My assumption I make, there is going to 13 be a good outcome. That's kind of like the 14 engineering -- engineers kind of hole that a lot of 15 these people run into.
16 And they -- and it's an incorrect way of 17 thinking, and it should always be -- you know, always 18 be -- the NRC gets it pretty good. The NRC thinks 19 it's a -- leader excellence, you know, they should be 20 striving for excellence, not the minimum required, not 21 for D's and D minuses, and making the most profits, 22 and stuff like that.
23 You should be -- you know, you should take 24 pride in your work, and you should try and do -- you 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 should always strive for the best you can. And you 1
should throw enough money at a plant that they get at 2
least A minuses, you know? You could do that. You 3
know, these plants, nuclear facilities, and stuff like 4
that, they could do that if they threw enough money.
5 You know, I think this is -- all this is is a money 6
base.
7 Somebody gets it in their head that, you 8
know, I've got to have this kind of a budget, I don't 9
care what happens. And that is the kind of thing over 10 and over again that gets a plant into trouble when 11 they start these mechanicalistic budget issues and 12 budget reductions of whatever -- five percent or 10 13 percent, and they don't see what it does to the rest 14 of the plant. It doesn't see how they destroy the 15 spirit of the employees and how difficult they make it 16 up in the control room.
17 And like I said, this is an example of --
18 I mean, it's astonishing to see that they are playing 19 around with reactor water level, and in a PWR really 20 low -- if the water is really low, and so many stuff 21 going on in that control room, it is astonishing.
22 And they somehow couldn't get that -- all 23 this superfluous stuff outside the control room when 24 they are only dealing -- when they should only be 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 dealing with paying attention to what the reactor 1
water level is doing, and they don't have the proper 2
procedures and stuff.
3 This guy, Mr. Johnson, did us a favor.
4 Sometimes, you know, you can make a sin, and your sin 5
can uncover everybody else's sins. And, you know, 6
that makes that one sin worthy. That was a worthy 7
sin. You know, it was worth it for you to sin that 8
way.
9 And, again, thank you very much for 10 listening to me.
11 MR. CHEOK: Well, thanks, Mr. Mulligan.
12 Just a few comments on your opening remarks. We do 13 consider all of the information you present, not just 14 the language, so we do consider what was said and not 15 how it was said.
16 And also, I guess one question. For the 17 record, you mentioned a Mr. Johnson. Can you tell us 18 who this Mr. Johnson is. Is he from the plant?
19 MR. MULLIGAN: Mr. Johnson is the RO that 20
-- back in 2010 he walked out of -- he got frustrated 21 with the control room.
22 MR. CHEOK: Okay.
23 MR. MULLIGAN: And he got frustrated in 24 the control room with that -- you know, and that was 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 41 his letter explaining -- that was his letter to PROS I 1
think it was.
2 MR. CHEOK: Okay.
3 MR. MULLIGAN: And the NRC had it on their 4
web -- it just came out on their website. And so that 5
-- he got -- they went through -- it was made into a 6
report. He -- it was a -- it's in this -- in the 7
inspection report, you know, as far as one of the 8
issues that the NRC has to deal with this year.
9 MR. CHEOK: Okay. Thanks. I'm familiar 10 with the PROS reports. We will go look at those.
11 So at this point, let me look around 12 headquarters. Does anyone here have any questions? I 13 see some heads shaking.
So no questions in 14 headquarters.
15 MR. LERCH [MULLIGAN]: There was a 16 confirmatory -- I can't even say it now. I can say it 17 sometimes -- confirm --
18 MR. MULLIGAN [LERCH]: Confirmatory.
19 MR. LERCH [MULLIGAN]: Confirmatory letter.
20 That was what he had -- they went through the ADR 21 process, and all of that sort of stuff. He left the 22 room for 10 minutes, and he came back, and he had to 23 go through all -- you know, we are very -- that he got 24 into that kind of trouble.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 42 MR. CHEOK: Thanks. Thanks for the 1
clarification.
2 So does anyone in the regions have any 3
questions?
4 MR. LERCH: No, I do not.
5 MR. CHEOK: Okay. Anybody from the public 6
joined us since we began?
7 (No response.)
8 So there will be no public comments.
9 So, Mr. Mulligan -- I'm sorry? Licensee, 10 do you have any questions?
11 MR. ERICKSON: No.
12 MR. CHEOK: No? Thank you.
13 So, Mr. Mulligan, thank you for taking the 14 time to provide NRC with clarifying information on the 15 petition you have submitted.
16 Before we close, does the Court Reporter 17 need any additional information for the meeting 18 transcript?
19 THE COURT REPORTER: I do. Has the 20 meeting ended?
21 MR. CHEOK: The meeting will be ended as 22 soon as you tell us you don't need any more 23 information.
24 THE COURT REPORTER: Oh, okay. I'm going 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 43 to need some contact information for Mr. Erickson and 1
Mr. Mulligan.
2 MR. MULLIGAN: Do you want my phone 3
number?
4 THE COURT REPORTER: Actually, is this Mr.
5 Mulligan?
6 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes, sir.
7 THE COURT REPORTER: Could I have your 8
address and your phone number?
9 MR. MULLIGAN: P.O. Box --
10 MR. CHEOK: Wait a minute. Let me 11 interject a little bit. And the reason I'm saying 12 that is because we have this process where we cannot 13 give names and phone numbers over a public system, 14 because there is privacy laws involved. So we will 15 have Mack Chawla contact Mr. Mulligan and Mr. Erickson 16 for that information individually, and then we will 17 pass the information on to the Court Reporter.
18 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you like me to 19 not include that information on the transcript?
20 PARTICIPANT [MS RUSSELL]: Typically what 21 is included on a transcript is just the names and 22 titles and, you know, who their employers are, for 23 instance.
24 PARTICIPANT [MR. CHAWLA]: Right. That 25
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1 PARTICIPANT [MR. MULLIGAN]: Well, just --
2 I never have any confidentiality or anonymity issues, 3
unless I say so. You know, that is what I have done 4
over the years, so I never have any confidentiality 5
and anonymity issues.
6 THE COURT REPORTER: If we don't typically 7
put these on the cover page, then I just don't need 8
the information at all.
9 MR. CHAWLA: No. We don't put the 10 telephone number. I don't believe so 11 THE COURT REPORTER: Okay. Thank you very 12 much.
13 MR. CHEOK: Thanks. So I guess with that, 14 we will close the meeting, and the meeting is 15 concluded, and we will be terminating the phone 16 connection.
17 Thanks.
18 (Whereupon, at 2:59 p.m., the proceedings in the 19 foregoing matter were concluded.)
20 21 22 23 24 25