ML101100535
| ML101100535 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 04/09/2010 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| Chawla M, NRR/DORL, 415-8371 | |
| References | |
| NRC-1840 | |
| Download: ML101100535 (39) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
2.206 Petition RE Palisades Nuclear Plant Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: (telephone conference)
Date: Friday, April 9, 2010 Work Order No.: NRC-184 Pages 1-37 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 + + + + +
3 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4
5 ---------------------------
6 In the Matter of: :
7 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION :
8 ON PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT :
9 BY MICHAEL MULLIGAN :
10 ---------------------------
11 12 Friday, April 9, 2010 13 14 The above-entitled conference convened via 15 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 1:00 p.m.
16 Eastern Standard Time.
17 BEFORE:
18 TOM BLOUNT, Petition Review Board Chairman 19 Division of Policy and Rulemaking 20 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 NRC STAFF PRESENT:
2 ERIC BOWMAN, Acting Branch Chief, NRR 3 MAHESH (MAC) CHAWLA, Petition Manager 4 ALLEN HISER, JR., Senior Level Advisor, NRR 5 ROBERT LERCH, Project Engineer, Region III 6 TANYA MENSAH, PRB Coordinator, NRR 7 KENT WOOD, Technical Reviewer, NRR 8 MATTHEW YODER, Senior Chemical Engineer, NRR 9 ALSO PRESENT:
10 ED WEINKAM, Entergy 11 MIKE MULLIGAN, Petitioner 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (1:00 p.m.)
3 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to thank 4 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mac 5 Chawla. I am the Palisades Nuclear Plant Project 6 Manager. We are here today to allow the petitioner, 7 Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 8 regarding the 2.206 petition dated Jan. 28, 2010.
9 I am the petition manager for this 10 petition. The Petition Review Board Chairman is Tom 11 Blount. As part of the Petition Review Board's, or 12 PRB's, review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 13 requested this opportunity to address the PRB.
14 This meeting is scheduled from 1:00 to 15 2:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. The meeting is being 16 recorded by NRC Operations Center and will be 17 transcribed by a Court Reporter. The transcript will 18 become a supplement to the petition. The transcript 19 will also be made publicly available.
20 I would like to open this meeting with 21 introductions. As you go around the room, please be 22 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 23 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 24 record.
25 I'll start off. My name is Mac Chawla. I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1 am the petition manager here.
2 MR. YODER: My name is Matthew Yoder, 3 senior chemical engineer, NRR, Division of Component 4 Integrity.
5 MR. WOOD: My name is Kent Wood. I am a 6 technical reviewer in the Reactor Systems Branch, NRR.
7 MR. HISER: Allen Hiser, senior-level 8 adviser for license renewal in the office of NRR.
9 CHAIR BLOUNT: Tom Blount, PRB Chair, 10 Office of NRR.
11 MR. CHAWLA: Are there any representatives 12 for the licensee on the phone?
13 MR. WEINKAM: Mr. Chawla, this is Edward 14 Weinkam, W-e-i-n-k-a-m. I'm the Senior Manager, 15 Licensing for the Northeast.
16 MR. CHAWLA: Mr. Mulligan, would you 17 please introduce yourself for the record?
18 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan. And 19 basically I'm an interested citizen.
20 MR. CHAWLA: I am sorry. We need to get 21 the region. Sorry. I omitted that.
22 MR. LERCH: That's fine, Mac. I'm the 23 only here in the region. My name is Robert Lerch.
24 I'm the project engineer for Palisades DRP branch 4.
25 MR. CHAWLA: And the PRB coordinator?
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5 1 MS. MENSAH: I'm Tanya Mensah, Office of 2 Nuclear Reactor Regulation. I'm the 2.206 3 coordinator.
4 MR. CHAWLA: Are there any others, such as 5 members of the public, on the phone?
6 MR. BOWMAN: Eric Bowman. I'm the Acting 7 Branch Chief for the Licensing Processes Branch in the 8 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
9 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Anyone else?
10 (No response.)
11 MR. CHAWLA: I think we have gone through 12 everybody here. Okay. Mr. Mulligan, would you please 13 introduce yourself for the record?
14 MR. MULLIGAN: I am Mike Mulligan. I am 15 interacting with the agency for a number of years over 16 a host of stuff. And basically I am just an 17 interested citizen. And I do have some experience in 18 the industry.
19 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to emphasize 20 that we each need to speak clearly and loudly to make 21 sure that the Court Reporter can accurately transcribe 22 this meeting.
23 MR. MULLIGAN: Was I talking too low or 24 something? I just want to know. I'm going to try and 25 --
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6 1 MR. CHAWLA: I think you were fine.
2 MR. MULLIGAN: All right.
3 MR. CHAWLA: If you do have something that 4 you would like to say, please first state your name 5 for the record. For those dialing into the meeting, 6 please remember to mute your phones to minimize any 7 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 8 a MUTE button, this can be done by pressing the key 9 *6. To unmute, press the *6 key again. Thank you.
10 At this time, I will turn it over to the 11 PRB Chairman, Tom Blount.
12 CHAIR BLOUNT: This is Tom Blount. Good 13 afternoon. Welcome to the meeting regarding the 2.206 14 petition submitted by Mr. Mulligan. I would like to 15 first share some background on our process.
16 Section 2.206 of title X [10] of the Code 17 of Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 18 the primary mechanism for the public to request 19 enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
20 This process permits anyone to petition 21 NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 22 licensees or licensed activities. Depending upon the 23 results of this evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 24 or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 25 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
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7 1 The NRC staff guidance for the disposition of 2.206 2 requests is a management directive, 8.11, which is 3 publicly available.
4 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 5 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 6 additional explanation or support for the petition 7 before the Petition Review Board's initial 8 consideration and recommendation.
9 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 10 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 11 examine the PRB on the merits or the issues presented 12 in the petition request. No decisions regarding the 13 merits of this petition will be made at this meeting.
14 Following this meeting, the Petition 15 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
16 The outcome of this internal meeting will be 17 discussed with the petitioner.
18 The Petition Review Board typically 19 consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 20 Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 21 petition manager and a PRB coordinator. Other members 22 of the Board are determined by the NRC staff based on 23 the content of the information in the petition 24 request.
25 At this time I would like to introduce the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 1 Board. I am Tom Blount, the Petition Review Board 2 Chairman. Mac Chawla is the petition manager for the 3 petition under discussion today. Tanya Mensah is the 4 2.206 coordinator.
5 Our technical staff includes Kent Wood 6 from the Office of NRR's Reactor Systems Branch; Matt 7 Yoder from the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, 8 Steam Generator Tube Integrity and Chemical 9 Engineering Branch; Allen Hiser from the Office of 10 NRR's Division of License Renewal; Bob Lerch from NRC 11 Region III's Division of Reactor Projects.
12 As described in our process, the NRC staff 13 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 14 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach 15 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 16 petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 17 process.
18 I would like to summarize the scope of the 19 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 20 date. On January 28th, 2010, Mr. Mulligan submitted 21 to the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding Palisades 22 Nuclear Plant license renewal.
23 In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan 24 identified his concern regarding the 20-year Palisades 25 nuclear relicensing, which was completed on January NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 18th, 2007. He is challenging the NRC activities 2 during relicensing of the plant, specifically 3 regarding the lack of evaluation of the swollen fuel 4 racks problem identification and correction.
5 He also accuses NRC of wrongdoing and 6 states that the NRC participated in a coverup --
7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 8 the record briefly.)
9 CHAIR BLOUNT: This is Tom Blount. I will 10 continue.
11 He also accuses NRC of wrongdoing and 12 states that NRC participated in a coverup through 13 delaying of inspection activities to obfuscate the 14 connection of relicensing and the swelling of the fuel 15 racks. This allegation of NRC wrongdoing has been 16 referred to the Office of the Inspector General and 17 will not be part of the Petition Review Board's 18 activities.
19 Mr. Mulligan requests that the NRC, one, 20 conduct an investigation around the swollen fuel racks 21 and relicensing and allow Mr. Mulligan to participate 22 in the investigation; two, if the deception and 23 falsification at Palisades Nuclear Plant is similar to 24 Vermont Yankee, take the following action: order an 25 immediate shutdown of the Palisades Nuclear Plant, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 replace the Palisades management team, pull the 2 licenses of all Entergy nuclear power plants, NRC and 3 Entergy employees involved in falsification be 4 prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
5 Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 6 date. On February 1st, 2010, the petitioner requested 7 to address the PRB prior to its initial meeting.
8 On February 18th, 2010, the petitioner 9 addressed the PRB. The purpose of the call was to 10 give an opportunity to the petitioner to provide any 11 additional information.
12 On March 9th, 2010, the PRB met internally 13 to review the petition and make an initial 14 recommendation. The PRB determined that the petition 15 met the criteria for review under 10 CFR 2.206.
16 However, the PRB rejected the petition using the 17 criteria and management directive 8.11 because the 18 issue had been previously reviewed and resolved.
19 On March 17th, 2010, this information was 20 sent to the petitioner via an e-mail, providing him 21 another opportunity to address the PRB.
22 On March 23rd, 2010, the petitioner 23 requested an additional call with NRC prior to the 24 teleconference to address the PRB. On March 31st, 25 2010, a teleconference was conducted with the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 1 petitioner to discuss the PRB's initial recommendation 2 and provide any clarification if needed.
3 The petitioner requested information 4 regarding agency documents discussed during the call.
5 On March 31st, 2010, a list of pertinent agency 6 documents was sent to the petitioner via an e-mail.
7 As a reminder to the phone participants, 8 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 9 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 10 transcript that will be made publicly available.
11 Mr. Mulligan, I will turn it over to you 12 to allow you to provide any information you believe 13 the PRB should consider as part of this petition. You 14 will have approximately 30 to 45 minutes to address 15 the PRB. Thank you.
16 MR. MULLIGAN: Hi. I am Mike Mulligan. I 17 would like to thank the universe and the privilege of 18 being a United States citizen to participate in this 19 process.
20 We should recognize that it seems that 21 Turkey Point has similar problems with their fuel 22 pool. There is issues of -- you know, we're all a 23 twinkle in our mothers' and fathers' eyes.
24 The nuclear industry, how it was born was 25 essentially -- was a creative process. Somebody woke NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 1 up one day and said, "Well, we have all this -- these 2 power plants making energy and sending a lot of energy 3 out into the waters as discharge." And they thought, 4 you know, "Hey, maybe we could make it into a power 5 plant or maybe we can even miniaturize it and make a 6 submarine." And that is how the nuclear industry was 7 born.
8 Our world is built on subjectivity, on 9 creativity, those processes in the brain. And we have 10 a creative moment. We dream about it. And we build 11 this world. The rest of the world is built over that.
12 The industry was built over this subjective process.
13 And then we built it. And essentially in that 14 process, we started measuring things. And that 15 created the objective world that is upon us and stuff 16 like that. So I just -- it's important.
17 How I think the 2.206 process will be 18 fixed is if we start getting away from evidence-based 19 information, we default into a good question. You 20 know, if somebody has a good question, this will 21 engage the 2.206 process.
22 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 23 Blount. So I am trying to understand the relationship 24 between subjective and objective, relative to the 25 issue at Palisades. Could you give me a little more NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 1 information on that?
2 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, you know, you come up 3 with this kind of evidence-based logic system and 4 stuff like that. And a lot of times we know that an 5 emergence of problems like Palisades if you wait for 6 the triplicate evidence to show up, it's too late.
7 You are out 20 years before all the evidence shows up.
8 And most of these problems wouldn't be 9 here if we kind of tilted to the subject side of 10 things, started asking questions, and started probing 11 and figuring out what these little problems are, 12 instead of waiting for this bureaucratic, rules-based 13 over and over again kind of game that ends up where we 14 are today with a risk-based system. And we end up 15 with non-safety-related pipes leaking into the ground.
16 And it creates a national uproar and stuff like that.
17 So that's what this is all about.
18 I'm trying to explain that I think we're 19 too evidence-based. We're too rules and stuff.
20 You've got to make a lot of cases where the rules are 21 -- were invented so that it would make the process 22 hard to figure out what is going on and correcting it.
23 CHAIR BLOUNT: Okay. This is Tom Blount 24 again. So that I am clear and I understand what you 25 are offering, what I think I heard you say is that we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 need a different process.
2 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes.
3 CHAIR BLOUNT: And I appreciate that.
4 What I am very much interested in today, though, is a 5 discussion that helps us better understand your 6 specific petition regarding the fuel racks and the 7 Palisades spent fuel pool and the swelling thereof.
8 So if you can give us additional 9 information around that subject, it would be very 10 useful to us.
11 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, it's not -- well, you 12 know, it's a catch-22. Basically what it comes down 13 to is you are looking for evidence-based information 14 and, you know, this big hurdle in front of me as far 15 as I don't -- I can't see what really went on there.
16 You know that. I can't really see. Everybody knows 17 that what gets written down and all that sort of stuff 18 is a small proportion of what really goes on and that 19 type of thing.
20 So, you know, you're sitting here saying, 21 "Mike, evidence-based? What have you got for new 22 information that's evidence-based?" And I'm telling 23 you that there's probably a lot to be said on the 24 subjective side of this. Being able to talk in a way 25 that engages people, this is just as important as the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 evidence, the so-called evidence.
2 The shame of this, I mean, the new 3 information is, like you told me -- it's still a 4 mystery of what is going on. How can -- you know, you 5 guys are a science-based and engineering-based 6 organization. And 20 years later, we're sitting here, 7 and you don't know what is underneath the stuck racks, 8 the stuck fuel assemblies.
9 How could this bureaucracy so corrupt 10 science and engineering that the first instincts of 11 people is I've got an anomaly going on here, I've got 12 something I don't understand?
13 And it probably is not safety-related.
14 It's not going to melt on the core and stuff like --
15 but how does that not end up being our first 16 priorities to figure out what that anomaly -- what is 17 going on with that anomaly?
18 How can we -- how do you guys sit there, 19 the agency, over 20 years and not saying, "You know, 20 we've got to understand what is going on underneath 21 all of this?"
22 We've got to immediately understand. We 23 can't wait 20 years. We can't wait from 2007 to come 24 to this point where we have a discussion about it or 25 you have a white finding.
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16 1 Within weeks, we've got to find out what 2 is going on there or months, within a very short time 3 understand what is going on and be able to predict the 4 future, be able to predict what is going to happen in 5 the future.
6 I mean, it's such corruption of science 7 and engineering what's going on here. It's a national 8 disgrace. And so this is what I'm trying to talk 9 about and stuff.
10 You know, in response to NRC request for 11 additional information related to the license renewal 12 dated October 21st, 2005, NMC will perform a neutron 13 absorption test of selected cells in U.S. spent fuel 14 racks prior to -- 2005, and they're going to figure it 15 out in 2011. How can that be? How does that end up 16 being like that?
17 We know that in 2005, there was a 18 degradation going on and stuff like that. Everybody 19 knows that. They had multiple stuck assemblies in 20 there. And nobody has got alarm signals going off in 21 their head saying a stuck assembly. That is a big 22 deal and stuff like that. So 2005, that response to 23 the NRC request, it's astonishing.
24 Then you go down to -- I mean, the 25 rationalizations that's going on here with this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 licensing response is, you know, "We don't have any 2 degradation." I mean, it's falsification.
3 They're going on there with their 4 rationalization that, you know, there's only a minimum 5 degradation with the boron going on and stuff like --
6 and they're giving you different -- we're not for 7 another -- rationalizations and excuses and stuff like 8 that. And you're buying it hook, line, and sinker. I 9 mean, it's amazing.
10 And then you get into the safety 11 evaluation report. You know, you start -- in that 12 evaluation report, licensee admits that they've got 13 stuck assemblies in there.
14 Again, where is the questioning mind of 15 back then? Why didn't people -- you know, there was 16 unknown degradation. An abomination of science from 17 back in the '80s as far as not understanding the 18 mechanism that was going on. And people are saying, 19 "Somehow we spin this around in the bureaucracy and 20 say it's not a relicensing issue"? How can that be?
21 How can that be?
22 That is a corruption of truth in one way 23 or another. I mean, that's what is going on here.
24 And as a reactor operator in the past, what is really 25 going on here is all of this kind of playing word NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 1 games and stuff like that.
2 It is intimidating the people in the 3 control rooms, you know, that people have this kind of 4 power to ignore problems for decades on end. What are 5 the chances of me challenging the company that is 6 going to have to spend millions of dollars to fix a 7 known problem? What is the challenge of me being 8 successful with doing that? None. The system has too 9 much power.
10 Then you go on. What are these test 11 coupons? You know, they're talking about test 12 coupons, and they're depending on test coupons. And 13 they're saying, "Oh, that's going to dictate that we 14 don't have any degradation going on in 2009." We 15 know. We know that there was 50 percent degradation.
16 You know?
17 The whole process is, you know, they sign 18 these things for two safety barriers or more and stuff 19 like that. Then they put this defective equipment in 20 the fuel pools.
21 Then we have a -- we commence decades of 22 work-arounds, you know, decades of -- I could talk 23 about language work-arounds, too. Really, all of this 24 is about corruption in language.
25 The first thing that goes on -- the first NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 1 organ that goes -- I'm an old man. The first organ 2 that goes with institutional problems is the 3 corruption of language. This beginning of fiddling 4 around with words and phrases and code words and 5 saying one thing and meaning another, that is what 6 goes first. The next thing you end up doing is you 7 end up having problems.
8 You know what Palisades is? It is the 9 Upper Big Branch mine. This is what Palisades is is 10 that this coal mine that just collapsed and 25 11 fatalities and stuff like that.
12 I'll tell you right now in looking at 13 history, you know, if something pops up here in the 14 next year or so like that, if anything happens, if we 15 get another leaking non-safety pipe with radioactivity 16 in the ground, an incident similar to that where we 17 get a lot of public opinion going on in this and they 18 start looking back at Palisades, they're going to 19 think about all just disgrace of the regulatory action 20 as far as over the years, this fiddling with words and 21 not sitting there and saying, "You know, we've got a 22 problem here. This is the -- we're going to spend 23 money and time, and we're going to figure out what the 24 mechanism is, and we're going to correct it."
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20 1 forced to pull up racks and put in decent racks that 2 would have done the job. Instead, we're out here for 3 decades driving up complexity. I mean, that is what 4 is going on here.
5 You are trading capacity factor and 6 profits for complexity. You are allowing these guys 7 to think of what happened, think if they would have in 8 the beginning figured out the mechanism and stuff and 9 made them correct that problem in the beginning.
10 Think of how less complex this world would 11 be. Think of all these resources that Entergy has 12 spent and think of the resources the agency -- how 13 much has this wasted over this business of 14 work-arounds.
15 This business over decades of not dealing 16 with problems and coming up with this rationalization 17 and that rationalization and stuff like that to come 18 up with what we have today, I mean, I think this is 19 another problem. I think this is a problem showing up 20 here, and it is a safety problem.
21 We probably can't measure it, but the 22 safety problem is complexity. The NRC is -- when 23 there are work-arounds or defective equipment, they 24 don't make them fix it quick and get over with it.
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21 1 make procedures and bureaucracy. And the system sucks 2 resources from the agency and also the utility, where 3 it should be better put to use dealing with real 4 problems and stuff like that.
5 This thing should have been cut off in the 6 beginning. And we wouldn't be dealing with this 7 astonishing amount of complexity. And that is a 8 safety problem in one way or another. This sucks 9 resources from more safety-important areas. And it 10 goes into this thing.
11 And I think the agency drives complexity.
12 I think the enemy of reliable plant and safe 13 operation is this crazy set of complexity, this crazy 14 generation of complexity going on.
15 We know that going all through this 16 licensing thing, they're talking of minimizing that 17 there is no -- I mean, there was degradation going on.
18 There was degradation that was not known to be 19 happening.
20 And these guys in the agency is making 21 them believe that there's no -- you don't have the 22 mechanisms to, you know, figure out what is going. I 23 mean, going future, do you guys have the capabilities 24 to understand an anomaly, you know? Did they get out 25 and -- I mean, this is what this represents.
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22 1 Going future, none of the problem shows 2 up. Do you have the ability to touch the foundational 3 facts and be able to predict the future? I mean, it's 4 astonishing what this represents as far as the 5 agency's failure and the licensee's, you know.
6 I just -- it's amazing how much talk 7 about, you know, "We know what's going on," "We know 8 what's going on," "We know what's going on," all these 9 different ways the utility said that "We know that 10 there is no degradation going on in the racks."
11 And, like I said, there also was a 12 discussion during relicensing that there was a stuck 13 assembly. I can't understand how that stuck assembly 14 didn't come back and, you know -- you know, you would 15 have said, you would have come back and said, 16 "Everybody was dancing around."
17 The agency -- as far as what I can see, 18 the agency and energy were not disclosing -- you know, 19 dancing around with language and words and phrases and 20 asking this specific way and responding in this 21 specific way through a set of rules or it could be the 22 rules they follow, their internal rules you guys have 23 and stuff like that.
24 Dancing around we might have one stuck 25 assembly or there was one stuck assembly. And nobody NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1 -- one stuck assembly. And then the next question 2 comes up, well, how many stuck assemblies do you have 3 and stuff like that, you know?
4 And then just going through and writing up 5 the information. As it comes in, oh, you ask another 6 question and not being able to know that you don't 7 truly understand what is going on in the racks, with 8 the steel racks, not knowing -- not being able to 9 expend resources to quickly find out what's going on 10 in the way with that rack, just that it's an 11 abomination of science and engineering when you really 12 get down to it.
13 And, you know, that's what I told you 14 about that coal mine. We're all going to be held 15 accountable if something happens in the future in one 16 way or another.
17 I mean, we'll always be able to go back at 18 my words and ours here. And if something happens, 19 like I said, we'll be all held accountable in one way 20 or another if the media is involved or especially our 21 consciences, you know, if something bad goes on here, 22 not only Entergy but also us as far as we have the 23 ingredients of what was going on here and we didn't 24 put a stop to it.
25 You get into the 2005, "On the basis of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 1 this review, the staff concludes that the applicant 2 has demonstrated that aging effects associated with 3 the neutron-absorbing panels will be adequately 4 managed so that the attendant functions will be 5 maintained consistent with a CLB for the period of 6 extended operation," right?
7 You don't have to do the black testing 8 until -- what was it? -- 2011. And we know those --
9 we know that they had boron degradation going on there 10 right now -- or right then, 2005.
11 And then I think the agency -- Entergy 12 said at the time, "We know what's going on here."
13 And the NRC came back, "I agree. You know 14 what's going on here. We know what's going on here,"
15 blah blah blah. "This is the future. This is how 16 we're going to set up the future with watching the 17 skies" and stuff.
18 We know now that that was absolutely 19 untrue. You had no idea of the process, the 20 underlying process, that was going on here and the 21 degradation.
22 So, you know, in the future, we look in 23 the future. You know, some new situation comes up.
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25 1 through the bureaucracy and our own logic systems and 2 discount what is going -- you know, that is 3 Davis-Besse. That is exactly what happened at 4 Davis-Besse.
5 Everybody was following the rule. You 6 know, everybody is following the rules approaching 7 Davis-Besse. Everybody was screaming that they're 8 following the rules, both the agency and First Energy 9 and stuff like that. Anybody was absolutely sure the 10 process was right and something big was missed.
11 And you've got to keep that in mind when 12 you start throwing, you know, the facts at me because 13 the facts are a lot wider than what you can prove, 14 especially when there's a barrier in front of you, you 15 know, when there's a -- something keeping you from 16 knowing all of the information. And it might be the 17 primary containment or it might be your ability to --
18 the capability to probe what is going on and ask 19 questions and make people answer your questions.
20 And then we get into the December 2009 21 white finding, the 2009-08. I actually talked to the 22 inspector that discovered this. And I was talking 23 this week to a project manager. And he was exhausted 24 with me, really.
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26 1 inspectors." And, you know, he was saying, "All we 2 are are inspectors" as, you know, we inspect things.
3 We don't think. That's all we do is report things.
4 My opinion is, you know, inspectors at the 5 plant, you know, the subjectivity, they're really 6 painters. They really paint portraits. They sit 7 there and say, "This is the dysfunction we see. This 8 is the emergent dysfunction."
9 And their capabilities, what they really 10 should be paid to do is paint a portrait, paint a 11 picture, build a statue. This is the dysfunction.
12 And this is my ability to draw people in with 13 interest, into this minor problem, so that we fully 14 understand that problem and correct it before it gets 15 big.
16 I was astonished with what this inspector 17 was saying. This is a project manager. He was 18 saying, "All we are is inspectors." That's a 19 limitation of your capability. I know all we do is --
20 isn't there something bigger than that, than just 21 being an inspector?
22 Isn't it you are a communicator? You 23 communicate to a license. You communicate within the 24 agency. You communicate. You are an artist. These 25 inspectors are supposed to be artists. They're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 supposed to be able to paint a picture that is beyond 2 the facts in a way that engages people.
3 And I don't necessarily engage people, the 4 facts on themselves. Sometimes you have to present 5 the information in an interesting way to engage 6 people, to get people's interest and stuff, because 7 that is what we're ultimately here for is to pick up 8 on emerging problems, pay attention to it, and fix 9 them before they get into big problems.
10 So this inspector is doing -- let's see 11 what he says. Condition reports. He has got this 12 refueling in 2007 with the start -- this thing started 13 in 1988 -- 1994-1995. They figured out the stuck 14 racks.
15 And they got this guy, this inspector.
16 And you guys take credit for it, which you really 17 shouldn't. You should be embarrassed. He's looking 18 at condition reports. And he notices that two fuel 19 assemblies are stuck. And this sets in motion the 20 different processes you guys have and stuff.
21 You find out -- I mean, then you find out 22 that 11 or 12 assemblies are stuck and stuff through 23 this thing and stuff. It's kind of amazing that --
24 you know, how much sooner could that have happened on 25 the first stuck bundle? You know, how much sooner?
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28 1 The bundles are stuck, right?
2 I mean, whose responsibility is that? Is 3 it an operating plant's responsibility? Is it we're 4 going to wait until decommissioning and they're going 5 to have to figure out a way to take the bundles out of 6 the fuel racks? Whose responsibility is that going to 7 be? Is that coming from the operating funds or is 8 that coming from the decommissioning funds?
9 You know, how much -- who is to say that a 10 lot stuff doesn't get released when they're trying to 11 yank them bundles out of there. And it ends up being 12 20 years from now or whatever it is, you know, a very 13 costly problem to fix and stuff.
14 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan --
15 MR. MULLIGAN: Do you know what altruism 16 abuse is, altruism abuse is, or the justification or 17 rationalization for doing good? It basically is 18 taking a minor altruism event or doing good or 19 rationalization and it overrides a bigger altruism.
20 So, all of a sudden, this minor altruism 21 overwhelms the greater needs of more people. That's 22 what altruism abuse -- in my opinion, the NRC is 23 riddled with altruism abuse as far as their 24 rationalizations are concerned. I can do many 25 examples of that that's going on here, this twisting NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1 the words and twisting of philosophies and all that 2 sort of stuff.
3 Nineteen eighty-eight is when the licensee 4 first identified the rack location. Nineteen 5 eighty-eight was the first time, you know, that little 6 tickle is a problem going on there. And nobody, even 7 to this day, nobody has the instincts to drive out 8 what is causing this. You know, science is going on 9 here. And it is disgraceful how it is being abused.
10 I mean, you know, the licensee first 11 identified stuck bundles in 1991, right, 11 fuel 12 bundles? When did the -- how come relicensing didn't 13 capture that? I mean, it doesn't sound like, you 14 know, anybody was -- the documents that was given me, 15 it doesn't sound like anybody in 1995 was, you know, 16 going up that ladder of asking questions. How many 17 bundles? How many bundles are stuck?
18 You know, everybody was playing around 19 with word games and licensing games and stuff like 20 that and not getting -- how come the licensee wasn't 21 required to notify the agency every time there was a 22 stuck bundle? I don't understand that, you know. I 23 really don't understand how so much of this could go 24 on without a notification.
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30 1 the time, you know, the games you guys got going 2 between the agency and the licensees. You know, you 3 know the licensees has issues.
4 And they're not required to admit it when 5 it first happens. You play word games, delay it for 6 years before finally, you know, "Well, I've got to 7 come clean now because" something or other is going on 8 and stuff like that.
9 I still don't understand how come ever one 10 of these bundles that was stuck can come up with a 11 report going on. How come you just climbed up the 12 ladder, you know, one bundle, two bundles, three 13 bundles?
14 How come somebody couldn't look up, see it 15 in the computer, and say again, "Watch this thing 16 climb up" and be coming a bigger problem and asking 17 questions, you know, 1994, 2004, "How does this end up 18 like this?"
19 And you see this all over the agency. You 20 see this kind of behavior all in the fleet out there 21 with this. You can't -- you know, we don't correct 22 problems in the early stages. We wait until we 23 embarrass the nation when it really comes down to it.
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31 1 degraded. You know, who knows how much really is 2 going on there?
3 And, like I said, the work-arounds. All 4 this is is work-arounds. It's essentially a language 5 work-around, vocabulary, a phrase work-around, you 6 know. That's what this all is. And we're abusing, 7 we're really abusing, language.
8 And when we don't speak clearly and 9 precisely and when things are working, we don't speak 10 with power. You know, give you a chance. This is 11 what I think. And you just start hemming and hawing.
12 We're going to make you answer the 13 question one way or another or we'll make the 14 consequences of your actions so expensive you'll never 15 play games with us again. That's how you create order 16 in a big organization and stuff. You don't have to do 17 it on every little thing, but every once in a while 18 you've got to sit there and say -- you know, you have 19 got to bring fear into people's lives.
20 Unfortunately, that is the way we all 21 work. We have to know that occasionally we can play 22 little word games. And we might not get caught at it, 23 but in the end, one day we're going to get caught.
24 And then we're going to pay a price for it. We have 25 to have that in the back of our minds. And we're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1 going to pay an expensive price for it.
2 That's the only way we keep order in this 3 world. We don't keep order in this world by rules and 4 regulations I'm telling you because that's what we're 5 doing.
6 That's what you guys are doing. You are 7 making more rules and regulations because you are 8 afraid to use power in order to bring order in our 9 world.
10 And, you know, the older I get, the more I 11 realize, you know, you have to use power, ethical 12 power, backed by the Constitution of the United States 13 and that type of thing.
14 And the absence of power gets to where we 15 are today. We're powerless to do anything. And the 16 only thing we've got the power to do is make more 17 regulations, more procedures. We're injecting a 18 complexity into the system.
19 I don't understand why -- how people can't 20 see that it's going to end up at -- we keep doing 21 this. You've got older plants and stuff. You know, 22 they call me a prophet at times, that my ability to be 23 able to predict things -- they say I'm either talking 24 to God or my circuits in my head are all screwed up 25 and I can associate things differently than other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 1 people, an eyeball. There's no question about it.
2 And I'm going to tell you how to do this 3 model. This is a model. All this stuff is a model, a 4 mental model, a set of behaviors that could be put in 5 the computer and essentially being a simulator and 6 stuff.
7 And this is how the new nuclear -- the 8 forthcoming nuclear renaissance is going to play out 9 with the system you've got going now. You're going to 10 build a new plant or you're going to build a couple of 11 new plants and stuff like that.
12 They're going to be just like Palisades, 13 the Palisades racks. You're going to have a eries of 14 -- you're going to have a lot of safety equipment, 15 probably more than you need.
16 It's going to really look nice on paper.
17 And it's going to be a grand idea. And it should work 18 and stuff like that. You're going to get these plants 19 built. And you're going to go into this work-around 20 accommodation mode that's going to be happier.
21 Safety systems are going to be degraded or 22 not of adequate quality or you didn't think things out 23 through before you built these plants and stuff like 24 that. And then we're going to spend the next 40 years 25 playing these work-around games because you guys NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 1 didn't have the power to enforce the small 2 construction problems and lapses and stuff like that.
3 You guys was on this accommodation 4 business with defects. You know, a utility takes a 5 shortcut or doesn't spend the right money and stuff 6 like that.
7 And you're going to play -- you know, 8 you're going to make a lot of bureaucracy, but you're 9 not going to get them to change their behavior. And 10 we're going to sit there with 50 percent of the 11 equipment in the -- safety equipment in that plant 12 defective.
13 And you're going to build a tremendous 14 bureaucracy of accommodation to those defects, instead 15 of making them fix the plants in the beginning the 16 right way. That is the way I see the future. And 17 that's the way I see the future in front of us.
18 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 19 Blount. We have about five more minutes.
20 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you, sir. So we went 21 over that. I see them talking about "What are you 22 going to do with them bundles, stuck bundles? Are you 23 just going to leave them in there until 24 decommissioning?"
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35 1 I mean, these are old issues, Turkey Point, Palisades.
2 God help you if you have any stuck bundles in Vermont 3 Yankee.
4 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 5 Blount. Does that conclude your comments?
6 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, a couple more 7 minutes.
8 CHAIR BLOUNT: Okay.
9 MR. MULLIGAN: A couple more seconds.
10 CHAIR BLOUNT: All right.
11 [MR. MULLIGAN] You know, a lot of people said, "Well, 12 we have nothing, the NRC has nothing, to do with 13 worrying about capacity factor." I just think your 14 risk-informed regulations basically isn't defining 15 safety. It's defining unsafety.
16 This is the kind of disorder we allow that 17 we defined as unsafety. This is the kind of disorder 18 that we allow you to come keep running these plants 19 and minimizes the expenditures of money and resources 20 on fixing problems at the emergent level.
21 So, you know, I've heard so many times "We 22 don't care about capacity factor." But you guys are 23 deep into worrying -- catering to capacity factor and 24 the power of these utilities by risk-informed 25 regulation.
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36 1 I suppose risk-informed regulation, on one 2 side, is good, but it also can be abused. And I think 3 in many ways, it is being abused.
4 Well, I think if anybody has any 5 questions, I am done. I thank you for this 6 opportunity, too. As I said, I know it's -- I feel 7 NRC spent a lot of time with me recently. And I want 8 you to know I appreciate it. And it's kind of 9 amazing, actually.
10 Thank you for this opportunity.
11 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 12 Blount. We do appreciate your passion and 13 thoughtfulness regarding issues relative to the 14 nuclear industry. And we do appreciate your 15 engagement in the process.
16 With that, I would like to ask the folks 17 here at headquarters, any questions for Mr. Mulligan?
18 (No response.)
19 CHAIR BLOUNT: Seeing none here at 20 headquarters, the region, do we have any questions for 21 Mr. Mulligan?
22 MR. LERCH: I do not have any questions.
23 CHAIR BLOUNT: Thank you very much.
24 Tanya or Eric Bowman, do you have any 25 questions for Mr. Mulligan?
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37 1 MS. MENSAH: No questions from Tanya.
2 MR. BOWMAN: No questions from Eric.
3 CHAIR BLOUNT: Does the licensee have any 4 questions for Mr. Mulligan?
5 MR. WEINKAM: Edward Weinkam. No, no 6 comments, no questions.
7 CHAIR BLOUNT: Thank you very much.
8 I don't believe we have any members of the 9 public on the line. Therefore, we'll proceed to 10 closure. Does the Court Reporter have any questions 11 or clarifications that you need?
12 THE REPORTER: I do have a couple. Shall 13 we go off the record first?
14 CHAIR BLOUNT: That would be fine by me.
15 Is that all right with you, Mr. Mulligan?
16 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes.
17 CHAIR BLOUNT: Great.
18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 19 concluded at 1:55 p.m.)
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38 1
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