ML12261A380
| ML12261A380 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 08/29/2012 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| Beltz T | |
| References | |
| G20120443, G20120492, OEDO-2012-0425, TAC ME8927, TAC ME9070, 2.206, OEDO-2012-0364 | |
| Download: ML12261A380 (41) | |
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21 22 23 24 26 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB)
CONFERENCE CALL RE PALISADES
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WEDNESDAY AUGUST 29, 2012
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The conference call was held, Michele
- Evans, Chairperson of the Petition Review Board, presiding.
PETITIONER: MICHAEL MULLIGAN PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS MICHELE EVANS, PRB Chairman, Director, Division of Operating Reactor Licensing TERRY BELTZ, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition LEE BANIC, Petition Coordinator NRC HEADQUARTERS STAFF STEVE FRANKL, Acting Branch Chi
, LPL3 1, NRR CHRIS HAIR, Office of the General Counsel NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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2 PRO C E E DIN G S 2
1 (10:03 a.m.)
3 MR.
BELTZ:
Okay.
I want to thank 4
everybody for attending the meeting.
My name is Terry Beltz. I'm a Senior Proj ect Manager in the Division of Operating Reactor Licensing at NRC Headquarters.
8 We're here today to allow the 9
Petitioner, Mr.
Mike
- Mulligan, to address the 10 Petition Review Board regarding his 2.206 Petitions 11 dated July 27th (July 27th is actually Rev 1), and 12 July 28th, 2012.
13 I'm the Petition Manager for the 14 petition and the Pet ion Review Board Chairman is 1
16 As part of the PRB's review of the 17
- petition, Mr.
Mulligan has requested this 18 opportunity to address the PRB.
The meeting is 1
scheduled from 10:00 to 11:00. The meeting is being 20 recorded by the NRC Operation Center and will be 21 transcribed by a court reporter.
22 The transcript will become a supplement 23 to the petition and will also be made publicly 24 available. Is the court reporter on the line?
2 COURT REPORTER:
Sorry for the delay.
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MR. BELTZ: Okay, good morning.
COURT REPORTER: Good morning.
MR.
BELTZ:
Okay.
I I d 1ike to open the meeting with introductions. And as we go around the room make sure to clearly state your name, your position, and the office that you work for within the NRC for the record.
Okay.
My name is Terry Beltz.
11m a
Senior Proj ect Manager in NRR DORL, and I am the Petitioner Manager.
MS.
EVANS:
And I I m Michele Evans.
I 1m the Director of DORL in NRR, and 11m the PRB Chairman.
MR. FRANKL: 11m Steve Frankl. 11m Acting Branch Chief for LPL3-1 at DORL.
MS.
BANIC:
Lee
- Banic, NRR, Petition Coordinator.
MR.
HAIR: Chris Hair, attorney with the Of of the General Counsel.
MR.
BELTZ:
Okay.
Are there any additional NRC Headquarters participants on the
?
Do we have any NRC participants from the Regional office on the phone? Okay. Are there any representatives for the licensee on the phone?
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MS.
DOTSON:
Barb
- Dotson, Palisades censing.
MR.
BELTZ:
- Okay, thank you.
What was your last name?
MS. DOTSON: Dotson, D-O-T-S-O-N.
MR.
BELTZ:
All right.
Good
- morning, Barbara. Is that it?
MS. DOTSON: Yes, sir.
MR.
BELTZ:
- Okay, thank you.
Mr.
- Mulligan, would you please introduce yourself for the record?
MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan, and I'm a whistle blower, and I worked in the industry for a number of years.
MR.
BELTZ:
- Okay, good morning.
Okay.
Although it's not required for other members of the public to introduce themselves for the call, if there are any other members of the public on the phone that wish to do so at this time, please state your name for the record.
Okay.
Not hearing anyone, I'd like to emphasize that we need to speak cl and loudly to make sure that the court reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting. If you do have something that you would like to say, please first state your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW, (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D,C, 20005*3701 www,nealrgross,com
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11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 name for the record.
For those individuals ing into the
- meeting, please remember to mute your phones to minimize any background noise or stractions. If you do not have a mute button, s can be done by pressing the keys *6. To unmute, press the *6 keys again. Okay, thank you.
At this time I'll turn the discussion over to Michele Evans, the PRB Chairman.
MS. EVANS: Okay. Good morning, everyone.
Welcome to this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by Mr. Mike Mull I'd like to share some background on our process. Section 2.206 of Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations describes the petition
- process, the primary mechanism for the public to request enforcement action by the NRC in a public process. This process permits anyone to petition NRC to take enforcement type action relating to NRC licensees or licensed activit Depending on the results of this evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend or revoke an NRC issued license or take any other appropriate enforcement action to a
problem.
The NRC staff's guidance for the disposition of 2.206 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w.
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petition requests is in Management Directive 8.11, 2
which is publicly available.
3 The purpose of today I s meeting is to 4
give the Petitioner an opportunity to provide any additional explanation of support for the petitions 6
before the Petition Review Board's initial 7
considerat and recommendation.
8 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it an opportunity for the Petitioner to question or 10 examine PRB on the merits for the issues 11 presented in the petition request.
No decisions 12 regarding the merits of this petition will be made 13 at this meeting.
14 Following this
- meeting, the Petition 15 Review Board will conduct its internal 16 deliberations. The outcome of this internal meeting 1
will be discussed with the Petitioner.
The Petition Review Board typically 1
consists of a Chairman, usually a manager at the 20 Senior Executive Service 1 at the NRC, and a
21 Petition
- Manager, and a
PRB Coordinator.
Other 22 members the Board are determined by the NRC f
23 based on the content and the information in the 24 petition request.
25 At this timet I would like to introduce 1
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21 22 23 24 the Board.
I!m Michele Evans, the Petition Review Board Chairman. Terry Beltz is Petition Manager for the petitions under discussion today. Lee Banic is the Office!s PRB Coordinator. Dave Pelton is the Branch Chief for the Generic Communications Branch responsible for coordination of the 10 CFR 2.206 petition process. Steve Frankl is the Acting Branch Chief for Plant Licensing Branch 3 1 which includes Palisades.
The following individuals are from the regional off Jack Geissner is the Branch Chi for Project Branch 4,
Region
- III, sion of Reactor Projects. Jay Lennartz is a Project Engineer in ect Branch 4, Region III, Division of Reactor Proj ects. We also obtain advice from our Office of General Counsel represented by Christopher Hair.
As described in our process, the NRC staff may ask c
fying questions in order to better under the Petit I S presentation, and to reach a
reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the Petitioner!s request for review under the 2.20 petition process.
I would like to summarize the scope of the two petitions under consideration, and the NRC activities to date.
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8 The rst petition, on June 27 th,
2012 Mr. Mulligan submit to the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding concerns associated with leakage from the safety injection refueling water tank at the Palisades Nuclear plant.
In this petition, Mr. Mulligan requested that the Palisades Nuclear Plant remain shut down.
Mr. Mulligan is critical of Entergy, the NRC, and the programmatic aspects of the regulatory program, including the Agency staff and the ROP based upon recent events at Petition Review Board and other Entergy plants as to the values of Entergy and a lack of NRC regulatory oversight.
He focuses on the recent leak of the safety injection and refueling water tank at Palisades, but also scusses past events at both Palisades and other Entergy-owned facilities.
The Petitioner also discusses a lack of adequate safety culture environment at Palisades.
Mr.
Mulligan requests the following actions be taken. One, the shut down resulting from the safety injection refueling water tank leak should be categorized as unplanned.
Two,. the NRC move the Palisades! performance indicator from red to the next level 5,
unacceptable performance.
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- Three, an outside authority, not the OIG, should determine why the NRC did not force Palisades to thoroughly investigate the safety injection refueling water leak when the leak first appeared.
Why didn't the NRC make Entergy fix the leak in the last safe shutdown period according to the Agency's own nuclear safety culture philosophy?
Number four, top Palisades management staff be fired and replaced before startup. Number five, Entergy's corporate nuclear senior staff be fired and replaced before restart. Number six, assign two additional NRC inspectors to Palisades and to the rest of the Entergy nuclear plants. Number seven, formation of a local public oversight panel around every plant.
Number eight, formation of an emergency NRC senior offic oversight panel to reform the reactor oversight process.
Number
- nine, a
national NRC oversight panel of outsiders, a
mixture professional and academic people, as well as lay people, to oversee and report on Agency activities.
Number ten, perform an analysis of the exceedingly numerous findings of problems with Entergy plants during this inspection reporting cycle.
Number eleven, evaluate if Region III has enough personnel and resources.
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2 22 23 24 25 shutdown until all procedures are fully implemented and corrected I all technical and maintenance backlogs are updated and correct all training completed l and all reports and safety processes are fully completed and implemented. Number thirteenl an independent outside investigation review the insufficient process outcome of the 2008-2009 Palisades security falsification l investigation l safety survey local and fleet wide training and safety surveys.
Fourteen I President Obama fire Chairman Jaczko and the four Commissioners.
Okay. The second petition l on June 28 th l 2012 Mr. Mulligan submitted to the NRC a petition under 2.206 associated with roof leakage at Palisades Nuclear Plant.
In this petition l Mr. Mulligan requests that the Palisades Nuclear plant remain shut down.
Mr. Mulligan focuses on roof leaks at Palisades l and also discusses past events at both Palisades and other Entergy-owned facilities.
He discusses the lack of adequate safety cuIture environment at Palisades I and is so critical of the NRC staff for tolerating and covering up very serious safety problems at Palisades l and throughout the Entergy organization.
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11 Mr. Mulligan included specific questions related to roof leaks at Palisades. Number one, what is a safety-related roof? Number two, is the roof above the emergency diesel generators or control room a
critical nuclear safety-related barrier?
- Third, where are the current roof leaks at Palisades, and are there any safety-related components near these leaks? Number four, list all the roof leaks at Palisades in the last 10 years and is the trend of roof leaks increasing or decreasing?
Number five, is Palisades properly evaluating roof leaks and repairing them in a timely manner?
In addition to the requests mentioned in the first petition, Mr. Mulligan also states that the following actions be taken. Entergy be prevented from starting up until all the safety problems at the site have been publicly identified and the safety culture repaired.
Two, heads need to roll in Region III and at Headquarters for tolerating and covering up these very serious safety problems at Palisades and throughout the Entergy organization. This all has the potential to gravely damage our nation.
Third, report on why the 2.206 petition process failed so utterly for us, for the Agency to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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20 21 22 23 24 25 hold officials accountable to the plant employees and me with not doing their jobs and trying to understand what was gone on at the te, and not repairing the organization at the earliest point.
The whole Entergy organization is involved and they have a huge costly hole to dig out of. It is easier digging the hole than crawling out of one.
This request appears to be based on final determinations made in past 2.206 petitions and that Entergy and the NRC processes failed to detect and resolve safety culture issues.
- Fourth, Mr.
Mulligan also requested a meeting with the Palisades inspector and other inspectors to discuss the conditions Palisades before the Petition Review Petition Board's pre-hearing.
Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to date. The PRB met internally on July 10th and July 31st to discuss the request for immediate action 28th associated with the June 27th and June petitions respectively.
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Mulligan's request for immediate action on the basis that there was no immediate safety concern identified that would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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21 22 23 24 25 prohibit a Palisades Reactor Plant start up, or had an affect on the health and safety of the public.
His requests also do not provide any new information or information specific enough for the NRC to further consider making an immediate action determination.
He was informed on July 17th, and again 8th on August the PRB's decision to deny his request for immediate action related to the two petitions under consideration.
8th On August the Petition Manager contacted him to discuss the 10 CFR 2.206 process and to offer an opportunity to address the PRB by phone or in person. He was also informed that petitions he submitted would be consolidated since the petitions were submitted at or about the same time, the requested actions were against the same
- licensee, and with a few unique issues addressed essentially the same specific concerns.
Consolidation of the petitions does not reduce the importance of the circumstances being discussed, but does streamline the NRC staff's review process and response.
9th On August he informed the Petition Manager of his desire to address the PRB by phone NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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1 21 22 23 24 prior to its internal meetings to make the initial recommendation to accept or reject the petition for review.
On August
- 21st, a discussion was held between Mr.
Mulligan and the Regional staff regarding ongoing issues at Palisades.
On August 23 rd,
Petition Manager informed him that the PRB could support a teleconference today, and he agreed to that date and time.
As a
reminder for the phone participants, please identify yourself if you make any remarks, as this will help us in the preparation of the meeting transcript that will be made publicly available. Thank you.
Mr. Mulligan, I'll now turn the meeting over to you to allow you to provide any information you believe the PRB should consider as part of these petitions.
Please bear in mind that you have approximately 40 minutes to address the PRB. Thank you.
MR. MULLIGAN: Hi, 59 percent. I want to thank the Staff for talking with me over Palisades issues.
I found that the staff was very knowledgeable and they were very polite to me and stuff.
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20 21 22 23 24 25 The problems I
have t thought is that this is a very problematic plant t and I found a lot of the times they were justifying and rationalizing the behavior of Palisades.
You know t they were buffing up Palisades and their troubles t and stuff like that.
They really weren't giving me an objective t accurate assessment of what was happening at Palisades.
My ability to be effective here is to be able to know what's
- to objectively know what's going on at the plant and express my problems across the Petition Boardt and stuff like that.
I meant I would have thought there would have been a lot more negative towards Palisades t you know. These are the problems they have and these t
types of stuff t instead of rationalizing t placing a happy tune on them t and things like that. It bothers me that the staff would - - and I find that at the NRC as a whole. They do that all the t They put a
happy tune on a lot of these things.
They're always in defense of the industry instead of being a cold -- a regulator with a cold heart t this is what's happening and stuff like this. You know t set limits.
We will not tolerate this kind of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 21 22 23 24 25 behavior in the United States. We will not tolerate this kind of disorganization l and this type of chaos, this type - - this equipment conditions that repeatedly happen over and over again across many
- plants, and especially at Palisades.
We r re better than that.
I found as a whole a lot of these issues and stuff like that, you know, I
think the NRC employees are good people, and really good people.
And I
think Palisades r employees are really good people, and they're trying really hard.
The problem I have is that the rules and regulations, over and over again you see these rules and regulations coming up, and tolerating
- leaks, and repetitive
- leaks, and acceptance of leaks, and we don't have that philosophy of we have control of the facility, we have the ability to we have the resources, and we have the technical and the intellectual ability to control our facilities under our feet. And our first object is to understand what's happening at our facilities. If degradation comes up and stuff we have the heart to fix it immediately. And if it takes and if we don r t fix - - if we have all this degradation going around us and we don't fix it in the outage and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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9 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 stuff like that, well, we have the heart to shut that plant down and fix it right. And we pay the price for our inability to control our facilities, instead of sitting there rationalizing hey, you knowlit's only a leak. It! s not a safety system l it's a low-pressure system and stuff like that, you know.
This is very important stuff for our nation, and we're sitting under a lot of energy as far as with the fuel l and the radionucl ides underneath it and stuff like that. And I find it amazing.
I was working - - I'm working on - - this is another example, you know. It's not associated with Palisades, but it is an example -- my problem with the NRC.
I'm working on NOEDs l and license amendment associated with the drought and heat conditions. And, essentially, what comes up is over one NOED at Braidwood and one license amendment at Millstone, basic temperatures were increasing and stuff. And all of a sudden we get into this kind ofl you know, through the NOEDs, and through a license amendment we get into oh, it's an emergency.
And then they go into talking about the conditions of the plant, and this is why we need NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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21 22 23 24 18 this special permission to stay up at power and stuff like that.
And they get technical justifications and stuff like that. But it's only half the story, you know.
You know, a lot of this stuff, there's very little science behind it, behind their justifications and stuff.
There's no sense of, you know, what got us into this, you know, through the piece processes, the NOEDs and I icense amendment.
What got us to this point? What are our failures in this point? What have we failed to see and stuff like that? How come we weren't ant ipating this?
And how come we weren't building in cooling capacity? How come the NRC processes didn! t force these utilit to take a look at the historical record, you know? Take a look at the you know, take a look at the heat sink temperature rates and stuff. Was the heat sink temperatures coming up through the last decade? And, of course, they were, but the license amendment and the NOEDs were
- they didn't explain that, you know.
They didn't say, you know
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21 22 23 24 temperatures. They were measuring and, you know, you put it on the ground, you see the trends where they're going, and then you say oh, by this date, you know, we're going to have troubles with the cooling capacity of keeping a plant up at power and stuff like that.
That's science and engineering, that's basic science and engineering. And that should be these license amendment requests. So, you sit back and you talk to a lot of the NRC officials, and you get this I the time, this spin, you know, this well, the rules tell me I can tell you part of the truth. And I don't have to tell you everything and stuff. It's all about spin, and what I am - - what the rules tell me I can tell you what's going on at a plant. Not what your heart shows you, not what your heart tells you what's going on, not what your heart knows what you should be doing and stuff like that.
And like I said, you know, that should have been in there with the NOEDs and the license amendment
- requests, you know.
We've seen those temperatures coming up and we failed to act.
We failed to act responsibly to our society.
The utility industry has a
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18 19 21 22 23 24 responsibility not just to make prof s, but to serve the American public. And really they
- you
- know, if you're an
- American, you
- know, we're supposed to serve our greater good.
We're not supposed to serve our pockets and stuff. And I see a lot of this stuff going on here with like rules and regulations all gained towards serving the money in our pockets I not the knowledge our heads I and it bothers me a lot when I see this.
SOl that's the repetitive pattern I see over not just Palisades, but a lot things I've been doing and watching these plants over the years and stuff like that I you know.
Ideology and group customs trumps science. Ideology and group rules and customs, and these mechanical rules that are so insufficient and so limiting I and contain so little information trumps what you know in your heart is right.
And I know a lot of you guys know in your heart a lot of this stuff is wrong I and for a number of reasons you can't change it. But I don't find that a good enough excuse I you know.
I f you know something is wrong, especially if it's national in scope, then you have a responsibility to try all your might to change it, and not just sit back and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, NW.
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17 18 19 21 22 23 24 collect money in your pockets.
The example with
- you
- know, I
was reading the inspection report, the last inspection report, and the licensee determined that the root cause management oversight contributing to plant issues was that managers and supervisors had focused more on work practices rather than on supervisory oversight and employee development.
The contributing cause identified was that some managers and supervisors do not always understand that what they perceived as distractions are part of their roles and responsibilities. And reviewing licensee performance over the first and second quarters of 2012, the inspectors know the issues were being encountered in the area of management and oversight.
Multiple condition
- reports, observation by inspectors and causal evaluation conducted on issues that arose during the most recent refueling outage has identified insufficient oversight and vendor control as a contributor to rework activities that increased accumulation of dose over the outage.
As an example, installing and replacing the reactor head, you know. You had troubles they had troubles - - I mean, this is fundamental.
They NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. NW.
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2 22 23 24 25 had troubles taking off the head, and then they damaged equipment putting the head back on. That's an example of these continuing problems and stuff like that, that happen over and over again.
In the inspection report, one of the things was in aspects dealing with conservative assumptions under the decision making component of human performance crosscutting areas. The inspectors discovered during the review that some of the corrective actions developed by the licensee had either been incorrectly stated as incomplete or still pending completion.
You know, I mean just the idea that I
- mean, that's falsifying paperwork as far as I'm concerned. And that's the essence of, you know, are we honorable people? Are we men and women of our words? Are we men and women of our conscience? Do we know right and wrong?
Do we aspire to being something bigger than we are, instead of people that just, you know, put money in their pockets? Do we have principles and ideals that are higher than ourselves?
I mean, that's what I'm asking. And you know what, people don't talk like I do and stuff, but that's what I'm asking, you know. What's in your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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heart? Do you tell the truth? Do you tell the full 2
truth? Do - if the rules prohibit you from telling 3
the full truth and explaining what's going on, you 4
know, you either change them or
- you know, I hate to say it but, you know, sometimes you have to break 6
the rules. You know I consider rules, like a rule like crossing a street, you know, crossing a busy 8
avenue and stuff like that.
9 You know, the typical
- the rule that my mother taught me, you know, look both ways before 11 you cross the street. And play it conservative and 12 stuff like that. The rules that's going on around 13 here is like, you know, in order to cross
- the 14 rule goes in order to cross the street you've got to look at your shoelaces, and you've got to walk 16 across the street without looking at
- looking to 17 see what the traffic does. And then it comes back, 18 you know, and then you come back with, you know, the 1
you collect a certain set of evidence and you say oh, well, he crossed that street five times looking 21 at his shoelaces, so that's -
it must be safe.
22 I mean, that's what I think of a lot of 23 your rules. I think rules are good and bad. They're 24 not just God's rules. Rules, you have
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else.
And a
lot of times you low the rules instinctively, and I do, and it's not really right.
There's got to be a
part of you, a
little bug inside of you that says okay Mike, you've got to look at this rule in the big picture. Is it good, or is it bad? Rules can make you a better person. It can open up the world to you if you follow the
- rules, if you follow this set of standards. You see a bigger picture of the world, you become a better person.
Following the rules could do the exact opposite. You could end up, you know, being blind, you could walk towards being more blinded. You could walk towards being a lesser person and stuff like that. And that's the nature of rules and stuff. And I
- you know, rules are either good or bad. They ther open up the world, or they close the world down for you.
You can see more and experience more, or you can see less, put more money in your pockets. That's what think about rules.
You know, back on February 22nd,
- 2001, s is in my petition. And here's a quote for you.
"God help us all. Can you see the problems with the repet ive nature of Entergy having instincts not to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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18 19 21 22 23 24 do the proper inspections to do it over and over I
again like in Mad Men. They are laughing at us and the NRC because these employees and managers know we can't control them.
The NRC has no ability to control Palisades. That is my Goddamned political statement to the NRC."
And here we are I you know I we've got I you know I with this roof leak -
is it a roof leak?
With the SIR FWT tank whatever I you know I there's l
insinuations that a Commissioner was pressuring the staff tOI you know I withholding information to a Chairman about Palisades. And the Chairman wanted an investigation of itl and Ostendorff or whatever his name yelled at a woman, a staff person about it. And he tried to influence having the investigation l you know.
The instinct there was this was not a useful use of NRC resources and stuff. And this is the stuff that bothers mel that the Commissioners I you
- know, they're so disorganized.
They're in a state of war with each other, that we might not be overseeing the nuclear industry like we should.
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18 19 21 22 23 24 26 me. I'd never allow the NRC Commissioners to make me do something wrong.
SOl I
meanl that was the response to me. I asked the question.
Anyway I with the safety injection refueling water tank l you know I over and over again the first instinct was it's a roof leak. And then over and over again through the outage and stuff I everybody is making guesses of what's causing the leak and stuff l and how bad it iS and how riskful I
it iS I and all that sort of stuff.
And I ohl Godl in the outage it's fixed.
And then they retest itl and it's still leaking and stuff. And then they had to go do something to -
and over and over againl you know I they missed what was first missed what was causing the leak. They had an improper interpretation of the risk of the leak. They had an improper interpretation that they fixed the leak. Over and over againl you know I they didn't get it right I you know.
They didn't call - -
I see a red light I you know I and it was a red lightl you know. They weren't they didn I t get it right over and over again.
Numerous times l both the Palisades staff and the NRC didn't put your foot down and saYI you know what I we ought to fix this thing right the first NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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And I think you destroy the staffs of the NRC and Palisades when you don't have that
- attitude, you know.
We are in control of our facility we have adequate resources, we have adequate enough resources with the parent company that a shutdown won't bother us.
We take things seriously, and we will shut that plant down and find out where that leak is and fix it immediately.
A situation like the refueling storage
- tank, you know.
It eats up resources, you know.
Repetitive issues of broken equipment and stuff like that eats up plant resources, intellectual and engineering resources. And, you know, like I say to everybody, you know, it might not just be related to sk-relatedness of the component. It might be that small problems end up overwhelming the staff, and they don't pick up on the big problems. They don't pick up on developing or emergency problem because they were too busy doing this other stuff that they should have taken care of.
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the processes of degraded and failing components.
2 It's just I
- mean, it's an easy thing to 3
understand. To me it is, anyway, because I've seen 4
it.
As as the war within the 6
Commissioner's office, I've been in a war. I've been 7
in a war at a plant, ended up me getting fired. And 8
I ended up, you know, playing these rules, these wars, and inflicting, you know, inflicting rules on other people, you know. You did this wrong and stuff 1
like that, and then they do it back at me. And I've 12 seen it. I've seen it between groups of people at a 13 plant, you know, two different groups fighting each 14 other.
15 It's terrible. It is traumatic because, 16 you know, employees, your families are involved. You 17 could go home, you're not the same person you are 18 because you're in this big battle of rules and 19 interpretations.
It consumes everything about a
20 person when you get in these employee battles, you 21
- know, over ideals and stuff. It consumes
- I've 22 seen it when I was anonymous at the plant, when I 23 was doing this stuff. And I've seen the employees 24 talking about me.
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me and stuff like that.
I could see who the
- you know, they were talking about who do you think it is?
Who do you think it is?
What do you think is behind this?
And they spent a lot of time the staff spent a lot of time, you know, talking about me, if you know what I
- mean, because I was anonymous.
And I was doing a lot of the stuff behind the scenes, and stuff like that. So, I've seen how traumatic it can make the environment and stuff.
How consuming it becomes on the person, how much damage it does to the personhood, everybody involved and stuff.
And it affects your ability and your
- judgment, and clouds everything.
And it's terrible, it is utterly terrible to live in that environment. You know, post traumatic stress and all that involved in it and, you know, I got wounded, and I know I wounded a lot of other people. I'm just saying that, that it happens, and somehow you've got to put a stop to it before people get hurt I and careers get destroyed, and families break up, you know.
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21 22 23 24 30 report. And, you know, here we are. You had a month of shutdown because of the refueling water tank. You had - - you're two weeks plus of a shutdown. You
- operated, I
- mean, from the last outage 108 days.
Right? You've had 44 days of outages, then 109 days of
- since the last outage, and 109 days it's been 109 days since the last outage. You have a 59 percent plant capacity factor.
This thing is worse. In these last three or four months from the outage have been - - it's terrible problems with the plant. You know, does it raise to a rule-based safety issue? You know, can you see it principally that you're unsafe, or can you see that the organization is in chaos and disorder and stuff like that? And, you know, they might be missing emerging information that's important and stuff. And the repetitive nature of these leaks, the refueling water tank was leaking for a year.
The control rod drive mechanism was, you know, it emerged after the outage, and it was leaking for the next month, and increasing. And you think you know where the leak is coming from, and then you find out once it's shut down how come when the first leak went you didn't know that it was a pressure boundary leak that says that you need to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w.
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shut down and stuff like that?
2 How come a month before that leak start 3
--- when that first leak started, how come people 4
didn't get curious and say, you know, I don't like this, and we're going to find -- God help us, we're going to find out what 1 s causing that leak.
And 7
we're going to pay whatever price it is to stop it.
8 How come it took a month? And everybody kind of, you 9
- know, was dozing away as the leak was increasing 10 and stuff like that.
11 I
like the circular logic with the 12 industry, you know, when a plant is sitting there, 13 you know, has a lot of capacity
- you know, has 14 breaker to breaker operation without no shutdowns.
15 They brag that, you know, we're safe because we've 1
got high capacity factors. And then when you get a 17 low capacity factor and you have to shutdown, then 18 they say we're safe because we do shut downs and 19 stuff like that.
20 Well, when are you degraded, you know?
21 When are you I
mean, everything is about spin, 22 you know. Everything justifies the happy tunes and 23 stuff, and nobody takes the hard, you know, the hard 24 choices and pays the fiddler, you know.
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and says this got to stop and stuff you know.
And the NRC I you know I with Pal isades you're sending a message to the rest of the plants.
You can paper whip these plants to death l you know I as far as having all these rules and regulations that there's no teeth in it. And nobody is afraid of you.
Or on the other hand you could I you know I punish a bunch of -- a few plants and you could l you know -- and create fear in the eyes of the utilities and stuff.
And if you say boo l that they automatically willi you know I do the right thing and stuff instead of wasting all this resource on these l
l paper whipping rules that nobody is afraid of and stuff. And then l you know l you see that -- we know that -- in the recent New York Times article you l
know l Clinton -- he was appeasing the utilities by hiring pro utility Commissioners I and you had a mismatch of power I you had four Commissioners that were extremely pro utility and stuff l while you had one guy that was I you know --
he was kind of pro utilitYI but he wasn't like the rest of the four.
And there was a power mismatch. You couldn't -
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18 19 21 22 23 24 was Obama. 11m sorry to say that that was Obama the way he set up the NRC Commissioners as being - - as appeasing the utility people.
Then you see this Presidential-type of influence with Exelon, and the utilities in general, how the util across the Uni States have so much influence on the state governments and federal government, how most of the utility there I S an assortment of utility people that step in to actually help us govern.
They don't have anybody else. These guys are skilled at governance. These utility guys are skilled at governance, and we canlt get along without them.
And all I I m saying is that I s a lot of influence. Utilities have a lot influence over President Obama, and the Republicans, and stuff. And there's no counteracting power against that. There's no equivalent and money, and
- lectual, and access to the NRC and to the government and stuff.
One side has too much power, and that's our politics in and stuff. And, you know, it I S really important that - - we see this over the summer with the utilities in general, and the troubles they had with meeting their commitments to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w.
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18 19 20 21 22 23 24 34 provide power to big Metropolitan areas -- excuse me, I can't even hardly talk.
You know what bothered me in that last inspection report? They hooked up a AC power source into a DC power source, you
- know, something as simple as that. They were working on a component.
The inspection report doesn't tell you - - you know, it was in May. It doesn't 1 you if they were at power or they were in the outage and stuff like that. And, you know, it gets you to wondering, you know, what and then they well, we'll cover it next quarter. It happened the prior quarter, but we're going to cover it in next quarter.
And it just asks you, you know -- I mean, that's -- why couldn't they -- why didn't they
-- how come they how come NRC didn't have how come they couldn't have what happened with connecting an AC power system to a DC power system, and an assortment of alarms in the control room. How come they couldn't explain what happened in that last inspection report? Was the NRC overwhelmed? Was Region I staff overwhelmed, they didn't have enough resources in order to do this? And they kick it over to another period and stuff?
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21 22 23 24 actually happen at a plant like Palisades? How come it takes us you know, and I talked about that in past petit
, you know, how these processes you know, some of them are a couple of months long, some of them are a year long, some of them are you
- know, then the discovery
- phase, and then the investigation phase, and then the resolution phase and stuff like that. And all these problems are out there in different states of discovery, and resolutions. Nobody has a handle on, you know, the big picture. You know, what is -
you know, is it a green light? Do we have a green light, do we have a yellow light, or do we have a red light, you know, as far as the conditions of the the overall conditions of a plant?
These processes are out there in so many different states of knowing and stuff like that. You know, it's a problem that we don't have -- at least I don't have I can1t see the conditions of a plant. And you might not - - you know, they might not disclose that they know a problem for a or two after the discovery, you know.
And then this thing, oh, we got it fixed, you know. And then they wait a
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9 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 because it took us so long to disclose it. You never get it disclosed in that unknown area, you know, they have a problem and they don't know what they're going to do, how they're going to fix it.
You know, it looks bad, so they wait until after an adequate length of time, disclose that they had a problem.
Oh, it's already fixed.
There's nothing to worry about.
In the inspection report, you know, the impellers, the reactor coolant pump impellers were broken, and they had parts in the reactor. You know, I say well, you had parts In the reactor. You must have fuel
- damage, because those pieces of metal certainly
-- they're I ike weapons when they're flowing through the coolant that fast. I'd like to know if they had any fuel problems.
- But, anyway, over and over again, you know, Palisades had reason to find this thing. The NRC had reason to, you know, fix that impeller, note that impeller is broken and stuff like that. And nobody had that's the, you
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littIe problems that show up, you
- know, the 2
insignificant little problems that are data rich, 3
and information ch, and shows you the world.
4 That's the way I
look at I
- problems, insignificant problems, they're a
gold 6
mine in there. But they don't have people looking at 7
these types of things.
And then asking the 8
question t is the impeller working right? You know, why does it take, you knowt three or four times over 10 many years t repeating over and over time, why does 11 it take so many times to discover a problem I in 12 the reactor coolant pump impellers? Why does it take 13 so many efforts to fix it? And why is there so much 14 you know t in the inspection report they talked 15 about rework. Why does it take so much rework? Why 16 does it waste so much resources with rework t and 1
fixing something once.
Oh, it's not fixed t and fixing it againt and that type of thing.
You know, what does it take, you know 20 according to the rules, you know I every plant 21 the United States could be like Palisades. You know, 22 the NRC would have questions about them t but it's 23 acceptable operations.
Every plant in the United 24 States would be like
- imagine every plant being 2
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22 23 24 point where, you know, how many plants will it take in Region III that the NRC wouldn't have the resources to afford a troubled plant like Palisades.
When does -
there are so many problems in the industry that the industry the NRC gets blind.
- And, you know, only sees -- only has the ability to see a limited set of data points. They're overwhelmed. I mean, that's what Palisades is. And, you know t Browns Ferry is the same thing, you know.
It's a
red
- finding, and they're still having problems, and they're delaying the inspection, the final inspection and stuff you know, because they t
don't have enough resources, or don't have everything fixed yet, and stuff like that.
How long is this just keep going on where these plants, you know
- where they stumble along, they keep adding these bureaucratic process on top of them! and it eats up limited resources, and it causes a plant to end up in big trouble. When does it! you know -- it just boggles mind to think about that we don I t have Governor Chris Christie last night, "Our leaders today have decided it's more important to be popular! to do what is easy and say yes rather than to say no when no is required. "
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This goes on, "His late mother I s advice 2
that there would be times in your life when you have 3
to choose between being loved and being respected."
4 Chris Christie last night and stuff. And that I s a
question for all of us, you know.
When does, you 6
know this paper whipping the industry, does that 7
lead to - does that - you know, where a lot of 8
these inspectors are - don I t have enough power and 9
stuff.
This paper whipping, the problems in the industry stuff, does that lead to respect? Does the 11 utilities respect the NRC employees? You think they 12 do? I don't think so. I think they know who the NRC 13 is, and the inspectors are intimidated by way up in 14 the NRC.
And the utilities have so much power and stuff like
- that, that the fault with the NRC 16 employees is, you know, live just got to go along.
17 For the good of my family live just got to go along 18 and play the game, and put money in my pocket.
1 I
- mean, that's what American life is today instead of us having these ideals, and ideas 21 that we aspire to, these ideas that we can never 22
- reach, you
- know, that welre always
- trying, and 23
- trying, and trying.
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18 19 21 22 23 24 can be mushrooms, and we can play the game. And we could be somebody who we're not, because that's not us. That's not us when you play the game.
There's an aspect of you, you have to submerge underneath this, and that's not you. And, you know, are we a great nation? Do we have great aspirations? Do we want to be bigger than we are, or do we want to go by these silly sets of ideological rules, and codes, and customs, and little people -
are we big I or are we small? Are we big at over Palisades? Is the best part of us showing over Palisades? You know, the repetitive nature of leaks, the safety inj ection refueling tank leaked. Right?
Then they had this next leak that goes on for a month. Is that us? Is that who we are? Is that the best of us?
Thank you very much for listening to me.
MS. EVANS: Okay. This is Michele Evans, again. Thank you, Mr. Mulligan, for your address to the PRE.
At this
- time, does anyone here at Headquarters have any questions for Mr. Mulligan?
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21 22 23 24 25 41 questions?
MS.
DOTSON:
No questions from the licensee.
MS.
EVANS:
Thank you.
Mr.
- Mulligan, thank you taking time to provide the NRC staff with clarifying information on the petitions youlve submitted.
Before we close, does the court reporter need any additional information for the meeting transcript?
COURT REPORTER:
No, I I m all set. Thank you very much. Oh, there was one. The organization that you are with, DORL.
MS.
EVANS: DORL, D-O-R-L, and it stands for Division of Operating Reactor Licensing.
COURT REPORTER:
Wow, that I s new to me, but otherwise 11m covered.
Thank you.
MS. EVANS: Okay, thanks. With that l this meeting is concluded and we will be terminating the phone connection. Thank you.
(Whereupon I the above-entitled matter went the record at 11:01 a.m.)
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