ML120370395
| ML120370395 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 01/31/2012 |
| From: | Mahesh Chawla Plant Licensing Branch III |
| To: | |
| chawla M | |
| References | |
| TAC ME7830, NRC-1419 | |
| Download: ML120370395 (41) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition Review Board RE Palisades Nuclear Plant Docket Number: (n/a)
Location:
telephone conference Date:
Tuesday, January 31, 2012 Work Order No.:
NRC-1419 Pages 1-40 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB) 4 CONFERENCE CALL 5
RE:
6 PALISADES NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION 7
+ + + + +
8 TUESDAY 9
JANUARY 31, 2012 10
+ + + + +
11 The conference call was held, Michael 12 Cheok, Chairperson of the Petition Review Board, 13 presiding.
14 15 PETITIONER: MICHAEL MULLIGAN 16 PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS:
17 MICHAEL CHEOK, Chairman, Petition Review 18 Board 19 MAC CHAWLA, Petition Manager, Palisades Project 20 Manager 21 NRC HEADQUARTERS STAFF:
22 DAVID ALLEY, NRR 23 MERRILEE BANIC, NRR, Petition Coordinator 24 BRETT KLUKAN, OGC 25
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TONY McMURTRAY, NRR 1
KERBY SCALES, NRR 2
TOM WENGERT, NRR 3
SHAWN WILLIAMS, Acting Branch Chief, NRR 4
NRC REGIONAL STAFF:
6 JACK GIESSNER, Region III, DRP 7
MEL HOLMBERG, Region III 8
ALSO PRESENT:
9 BARB JACKSON [DOTSON], Palisades Licensing 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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P R O C E E D I N G S 1
(1:11:59 p.m.)
2 MR. CHAWLA: I'd like to thank everybody 3
for attending this meeting. My name is Mac Chawla, and 4
I'm the NRC Project Manager for the Palisades Nuclear 5
Plant.
6 We are here today to allow the Petitioner, 7
Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 8
regarding the 2.206 Petition dated January 10, 2012.
9 I'm also the Petition Manager for the 10 Petition. The Petition Review Board Chairman is Mike 11 Cheok.
12 As part of the Petition Review Board, or 13 PRB's review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 14 requested this opportunity to address the PRB.
15 This meeting is scheduled from 1:00 to 16 2:00. I guess with the delay here, we will go 10 17 minutes extra.
18 The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 19 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 20 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 21 the petition. The transcript will also be made 22 publicly available.
23 I would like to open this meeting with 24 introductions. As we go around the room please be sure 25
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to clearly state your name, your position and the 1
office that you work for within the NRC for the 2
record. I'll start off. Again, my name is Mac Chawla 3
and I'm the Petitioner Manager and the Project Manager 4
for Palisades. I'll go around the room here.
5 MS. BANIC: Merrilee Banic, NRR, Petition 6
Coordinator.
7 MR.
WENGERT:
Tom Wengert the backup 8
Project Manager for Palisades in NRR.
9 MR.
WILLIAMS:
Shawn
- Williams, Acting 10 Branch Chief, NRR.
11 MR. KLUKAN: Brett Klukan. I am the Office 12 of General Counsel attorney representative.
13 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Mike Cheok. I'm the Deputy 14 Director in the Division of Engineering in NRR.
15 MR. McMURTRAY: Tony McMurtray. I'm Branch 16 Chief, Component Performance and Testing Branch in 17 NRR.
18 MR. ALLEY: Dave Alley, Senior Materials 19 Engineer with NRR.
20 MR.
SCALES:
Kerby
- Scales, Electrical 21 Engineer, NRR.
22 MR.
WOLFGANG:
Bob
- Wolfgang, Senior 23 Mechanical Engineer, NRR.
24 MR.
CHAWLA:
That completes the 25
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introductions here in this room. Are there any 1
participants from headquarters on the phone?
2 (No response.)
3 MR. CHAWLA: Hearing none, are there any 4
NRC participants from the regional office on the 5
phone? Please introduce yourself.
6 MR. GIESSNER: Yes, I'm Jack Geissner 7
[Giessner], Branch Chief Region III, responsible for 8
Palisades inspections.
9 MR. HOLMBERG: Mel Holmberg, I'm Region III 10 Senior Reactor Inspector with the Division of Reactor 11 Safety.
12 MR. CHAWLA: Are there representatives from 13 the licensee on the phone?
14 MS.
JACKSON
[DOTSON]:
Barb Jackson 15
[Dotson], Palisades Licensing.
16 MR. CHAWLA: Mr. Mulligan, would you please 17 introduce yourself for the record.
18 MR. MULLIGAN: Mike Mulligan. I'm a whistle 19 blower, and I live in Hinsdale, New Hampshire.
20 MR. CHAWLA: I guess we have everybody now.
21 It is -- I don't see any members of the public here 22 other than Mr. Mulligan. It's not required for members 23 of public to introduce themselves for this call; 24 however, if there are any members of the public on the 25
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phone that wish to do so at this time please state 1
your name for the record.
2 (No response.)
3 MR. CHAWLA: Hearing none I don't recognize 4
any members of public here.
5 I would like to emphasize that we each 6
need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 7
court reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
8 If you do have something that you would like to say, 9
please first state your name for the record.
10 For those dialing into the meeting, please 11 remember to mute your phones to minimize any 12 background noise or distractions. If you do not have a 13 mute button this can be done by pressing the key *6.
14 To unmute press the *6 key again. Thank you.
15 At this time, I will turn it over to the 16 PRB Chairman, Mike Cheok.
17 CHAIRMAN CHEOK:
Thank you and good 18 afternoon. Welcome to this meeting regarding the 2.206 19 Petition submitted by Mr. Mulligan.
20 I'd like to first share some background on 21 our process. Section 2.206 of Title 10 of the Code of 22 Federal Regulations describes the Petition process.
23 This is the primary mechanism for the public to 24 request enforcement action by the NRC in a public 25
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process. The process permits anyone to petition the 1
NRC to take enforcement-type action related to the NRC 2
licensees or licensed activities.
3 Depending on the results of this 4
evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, or revoke an 5
NRC issued license, or take any other appropriate 6
enforcement action to resolve the problem.
7 The NRC Staff's guidance for the 8
disposition of 2.206 petition requests is in 9
Management Directive 8.11, which is publicly 10 available.
11 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 12 the Petitioner an opportunity to provide any 13 additional explanation or support for the petition 14 before the Petition Review Board's initial 15 consideration and recommendation.
16 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 17 an opportunity for the Petitioner to question or 18 examine the PRB on the merits or the issues presented 19 in the petition request. No decisions regarding the 20 merits of this petition will be made at this meeting.
21 Following this
- meeting, the Petition 22 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
23 The outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 24 with the Petitioner.
25
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The Petition Review Board typically 1
consists of a Chairman, usually a Manager at the 2
Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 3
Petition Manager and a PRB Coordinator. Other members 4
of the Board are determined by the NRC Staff based on 5
the content of the information in the petition 6
request.
7 At this time, I would like to introduce 8
the Board. I am Mike Cheok, the Petition Review Board 9
Chairman. Mac Chawla is the Petition Manager for the 10 petition under discussion today. Lee Banic is the 11 Office PRB Coordinator. Our technical staff includes 12 Kerby Scales from the Electrical Engineering Branch, 13 Bob Wolfgang from the Component Performance and 14 Testing Branch, David Alley from the Piping NDE 15 Branch, Jack Geissner [Giessner], Branch Chief Branch 16 Four from Region III, Division of Reactor Projects, 17 Robert Lerch, Project Engineer, Branch Four from 18 Region III, Division of Reactor Projects, Melvin 19 Holmberg, Senior Reactor Inspector, Engineering Branch 20 One from the Region III Division of Reactor Safety. We 21 also obtained advice from our Office of the General 22 Counsel represented by Brett Klukan.
23 As described in our process, the NRC Staff 24 may ask clarifying questions in order to better under 25
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the Petitioner's presentation and to reach a reasoned 1
decision of whether to accept or reject the 2
Petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 3
request.
4 I would like to summarize the scope of the 5
petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 6
date. First, on January 10 th, 2012 Mr. Mulligan 7
submitted to the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding 8
the Palisades Nuclear Power Plant.
9 In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan is 10 requesting immediate shutdown of the Palisades Nuclear 11 Power Plant, also known as PNP, and all Entergy 12 Nuclear Power Plants. In addition, he requested the 13 following actions, some of which were repeated from 14 his previous petitions.
15 Number one, replacement of the Palisades 16 management and Entergy Corporate Nuclear Senior Staff 17 prior to plant startup. Number two, assignment of 18 additional NRC inspectors at PNP and other Entergy 19 plants. Number three, formation of a local public 20 oversight panel around every plant site. Number four, 21 forming an emergency NRC Senior Official Oversight 22 Panel with the aims of reforming the Reactor Oversight 23 Process, or the ROP. Number five, forming a public 24 national oversight panel to report on NRC activities.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 Number six, performing an analysis of the cause of the 1
numerous inspection findings at Entergy plants. Number 2
- seven, evaluation of NRC Region III personnel 3
resources. Number eight, a request that PNP remain 4
shut down until replacement of the three service water 5
pumps. Number nine, a request that Entergy plants 6
remain shut down until completion of all cleaning 7
procedures, including the Fukushima emergency power 8
system procedures and records. Number ten, a request 9
for a report of the failure of the NRC to prevent the 10 Palisades DC bus event. Number eleven, that NRC create 11 a
system for reporting of coupling
- failures, 12 degradations, and near misses. Number twelve, the 13 replacement of the present NRC Commission, including 14 the Chairman by the U.S. President. Number thirteen, 15 an independent outside investigation over the 16 insufficient process outcome of the 2008 and 2009 17 Palisades security falsification.
18
- Next, allow me to discuss the NRC 19 activities to date. On January 19 th, 2012, the PRB met 20 internally to discuss Mr. Mulligan's request for 21 immediate action. The PRB denied your request for 22 immediate action on the basis that there was no 23 immediate safety concern at the plant, or to the 24 public health and safety.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 Your request for the immediate action to 1
shut down Palisades and other Entergy plants did not 2
have adequate basis. You have cited numerous equipment 3
failures and made statements of falsification of 4
records, and you have made the ROP process to be 5
inadequate. However, you did not provide additional 6
information for the NRC to consider.
7 The Staff is aware of information you have 8
provided in the petition, and these issues and events 9
are being reviewed through other NRC processes. You 10 were informed on January 24 th, 2012 of the PRB's 11 decision to deny your request for immediate action.
12 On January 24 th, 2012 the Petition Manager 13 contacted you to discuss the 10 CFR 2.206 process, and 14 to offer you an opportunity to address the PRB by 15 phone or in person. You requested to address the PRB 16 by phone prior to its internal meeting to make our 17 initial recommendation to accept or reject the 18 petition for review.
19 As a reminder for all phone participants 20 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 21 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 22 transcript, and this will be made publicly available.
23 Thank you.
24 Mr. Mulligan, I'll turn it over to you to 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 allow you the opportunity to provide any information 1
you believe the PRB should consider as part of this 2
petition.
3 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you. Mike Mulligan. As 4
far as the security event back in 2008 or 2007, you 5
know, essentially what I was getting at is that out of 6
that -- through ADR process, and I don't like ADR 7
process because a lot of that stuff is behind closed 8
doors, Entergy agreed to do a culture survey fleet-9 wide. And we have a host of problems with Entergy 10 plants across the nation and stuff, and they've had 11 fleet training on integrity, procedures, and a whole 12 bunch of stuff, on and on, and on many times in the 13 last three or four years and stuff like that.
14 And we know that out of the security 15 event, Entergy was required to do a bunch of security 16
-- culture surveys at Palisades. And everything comes 17 out smelling pretty good through these cultural 18 surveys and stuff. And the employees always tell 19 Palisades and Entergy that everything is smelling 20 sweet.
21 We know by listening to the NRC at the 22 beginning of this month, Palisades is in terrible 23 trouble with their culture and stuff like that, so 24 what is the worth of these cultural surveys to us, to 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 the communities and stuff? I mean, how honest are 1
they?
2 And when they accept these things over and 3
over again without question, and everybody always says 4
we ain't got no problems, and then all of a sudden the 5
plant has a terrible accident like the DC accident.
6 And then all of a sudden we find a bunch of cultural -
7
- deep cultural problems.
8 You know, I don't think it's all of a 9
sudden -- a month before the DC event everything was 10 sweet with Palisades. I had one 2.206 after another, 11 and it indicates to me that Palisades was always in 12 deep trouble, and the NRC failed to help Entergy 13 correct their problems.
14 Here's February 22 nd, 2011, my second 15 2.206. "We know from the study of the past there is" -
16
- this is a year ago. "We know from the study of the 17 past there are huge problems spinning unseen right now 18 at Palisades that the NRC doesn't document. It is 19 going to boggle the mind with what the NRC discovers 20 next year or two at Palisades," just like the last two 21 years. I say there are going to be bigger and more 22 repetitive problems.
23 You know, this didn't come out of nowhere.
24 It's a failure of the NRC to act. I think the biggest 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 risk is not from the threat of a bad act. This is a 1
year ago. I think the biggest risk is not from the 2
threat of a
bad act from direct engineering 3
falsification of components, but the threat comes from 4
killing the spirit of their employees.
5 And what do we hear, less than a month ago 6
at the meeting about Palisades -- I want to -- as an 7
example, President Obama just got done talking about 8
pulling the trigger on Osama bin Laden. He basically 9
had to act on incomplete information. They got a lot 10 of information, but there wasn't a lot of -- there was 11 a lot of missing information, and he had to take a 12 chance. And the outcome was that we ended that threat 13 acting on incomplete information.
14 I think people ought to think about that 15 in this. A lot of times we don't have complete 16 information, and we can't wait for all the information 17 to come in on these complex systems. We've got to act 18 beforehand. And once you get into the big plans and 19 tens of thousands of components and thousands of 20 employees, you know, by the time we show big problems 21 in the ROP it's too late. It's like turning around a 22 battleship. It takes too much time to turn them 23 around.
24 And like I said, you know, we can -- all 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 this survey -- cultural survey stuff, you know, words 1
have meaning, and results having meaning and stuff.
2 And that was inaccurate, that survey stuff was 3
inaccurate. And it's a con job because, essentially, 4
Entergy gets to hire their own people. And they 5
probably tell the companies beforehand this is what we 6
want, can you do it for us? And that's what they get.
7 You know, I don't know. Maybe the NRC 8
ought to hire somebody independent or something like -
9
- I don't know what the question is but, you know, 10 that was -- we could have -- Entergy should have found 11 the problem two years ago and they didn't.
12 The problem is they go through another ADR 13 process. It began in 2010. It just came out as an 14 enforcement finding with the employee that stormed out 15 of the control room. Basically, the same thing is --
16 another agreement. This thing isn't, you know --
17 Entergy, you do it or stay shut down. This is another 18
-- you know, a gentleman agreement, essentially -- I 19 can't even say the word, confirmaternity [confirmatory 20 action] letter, whatever you call it.
21 How many has Entergy had in the last --
22 two or three at Palisades, and who knows what they've 23 gotten over the -- I mean, how well does that work and 24 stuff? So, you know, so another survey is going to be 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 done fleet-wide, more fleet training. These poor guys 1
they're getting overwhelmed with all the fleet 2
training on integrity and stuff. You know, it just 3
bothers me that this thing wasn't prevented.
4 You know, the NRC is -- you know, it's 5
like playing football. They're supposed to call a 6
foul or an improper interception and stuff. That's 7
the job of the Agency, to call a foul and make a 8
utility pay a price, you know. And keep the game 9
within bounds and stuff, and I don't -- you know, 10 that's missing here with controlling these utilities.
11 You know, Wolf Creek with their loop is a 12 very serious accident, and Byron today or yesterday 13 and stuff like that. That's a natural result of the 14 system the NRC sets up. You know, that's the system 15 that the NRC allows. And we've got all sorts of 16 emergencies all throughout the national with nuclear 17 plants historic. And we've got the weather problems 18 and stuff in -- you know, it worries me.
19 The issue with the coupling. I mean, this 20 is a six-inch piece of metal -- a rod of metal with a 21 hole cut through it. It's basically about a little 22 more than half an inch thick. This thing isn't 23 complicated and stuff.
24 And you look at all the activities with 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 Entergy and hiring people, and this is consuming 1
resources at Entergy. This is consuming resources at 2
the Entergy and stuff. And there's a limited amount 3
of resources, and there's tens of thousands of 4
components at a plant like Palisades. What if each one 5
of these components had to have the same intensity of 6
care as what was shown with the coupling, you know?
7 Where's the point of you get too overwhelmed with 8
these issues, and you make these -- you don't want to 9
enforce anything but you want to make another report, 10 make another hundred rules that they don't follow.
11 When does this thing get overwhelmed, you 12 know? The ability of humans -- I mean, it's a 13 wonderful ability of humans is to discriminate. They 14 go through lives and they pick out the important stuff 15 from the least important stuff. That's a wonderful 16 ability of our brains to do, but as you start getting 17 into more complex
- things, you start getting 18 overwhelmed. And the next thing you know, you start 19
- numbing, you know.
It's dysfunctional.
It's an 20 adaption.
21 Discrimination is really an adaption to a 22 poor system, two complex things going around in the 23 environment. And the result of depending upon it too 24 much is you start numbing out, and becoming numb and 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 stuff, killing the spirit. And that's what I worry is 1
happening with this.
2 We don't want to make a plant behave. We 3
want to drive up the complexity until everybody goes 4
crazy. I worry about that and stuff.
5 Let's see, Fitzpatrick. They had their 6
falsification of RAD procedures and training.
7 Palisades RO running out of the control room. We know 8
that's a good one. Pilgrim, failure to perform a 9
control room startup safely. How about the Grand Gulf 10
$140,000 issue with the control room employees going 11 on the internet against procedures.
12 I mean, how many -- what's going on here?
13 Why are these guys running -- getting away with not 14 following procedures and not, you know -- why are you 15 needing a procedure to say that -- I mean, you really 16 shouldn't be on the internet in the control room of a 17 nuclear power plant. I mean, why are we so fixated on 18
-- you know, as we ramp up these procedures and we 19 ramp up the ROP, you know, it just -- we're going to 20 get into big trouble.
21 River Bend, you know, they intimidated an 22 engineer, and the big problems with quality control 23 fleet-wide. Did you have a cultural survey on River 24 Bend? I think you did. I think fleet-wide you had 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 another cultural survey, so how many times are we 1
going to swallow this culture survey down, you know, 2
that failed before? And another one of these false 3
images up in front of us, you know, as well, it should 4
make you feel better.
5 And don't get me going on -- this thing in 6
2010, this thing happened, and we're having surveys 7
now. How is that helping the United States, when it C-8
- if there's such a delay of wrongdoing being punished 9
or being fixed, or whatever you call it. That's going 10 on all over the United States.
11 You know, I don't have a degree or a 12 scientific degree, or an engineering degree, but can I 13 talk science? Can I talk engineering? At times I can, 14 you know. These scientists and these engineers, can 15 they talk junk science and junk engineering? Are they 16 allowed to do this? How do we tell the difference 17 between real science and phony science?
18 You know, I think a lot of it is if you 19 can prove it, if it's provable. If you do it once and 20 then you do another experiment and you see the same 21 results -- that, to me, is science. And, you know, I 22 question a lot of the science that goes -- especially 23 goes on with this coupling issue and stuff, and what 24 the -- you know, I have issues on how the Agency 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 determines what science is. Is a likely contributor in 1
my 206 [2.206], what does that mean, a likely 2
contributor? If these guys are talking to the NRC 3
they're supposed to you know, to me they're supposed 4
to have proof that something is wrong or we've got 5
some sort of corrosion process going on and stuff like 6
that. You know, there's supposed to be proof and not a 7
big story of theories, and suited -- people with 8
expensive suits telling stories.
9 Entergy's root cause analysis, you know, 10 they say there's three service water pumps in they're 11 modified Bowler pumps. The Lucas Pinken Corporation, 12 the guys that did the metallurgical studies and stuff 13 like that, they say they got to Bowler -- Layne and 14 Bowler model pumps and one Johnson pump. You know, 15 little things like that when Entergy can't get the 16 paperwork should start raising signals.
17 One of these guys is wrong and stuff. You 18 know, it's a 300 horsepower motor, 350 horsepower 19 motor and stuff like that, but these little things 20 where -- in these big reports and people aren't 21 accurate, you know.
22 You know, I don't know. You need a 23 procedure to tell you that that's some -- hey, 24 something is wrong here and stuff like that when the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 spotlight is on Entergy, and somebody's got this 1
information wrong. What does it take?
2 You know, they got a 72-hour LCO in three 3
pumps and stuff like that. They're always rushing 4
into these LCOs, you know, they got these short-term 5
LCOs, and forces these guys to pen it because they're 6
going to lose $2 million a day in money and stuff like 7
that. You know, why do we put these guys under that 8
kind of pressure and stuff like that? Maybe they need 9
four pumps, you know, so that they have a little bit 10 more time to think these things out when a pump breaks 11 down and stuff.
12 You
- know, Layne and Bowler
- Pump, 13 Incorporated is domiciled in Ankara, Turkey. It's a 14 Turkish company, it's from Turkey as far as I see on 15 the internet and stuff. You know, and that raises 16 questions to me on how do -- do they have a repair 17 part system here? You know, is there adequate repair 18 parts? Then you start thinking about what is a 19 provider of big components for nuclear plants, you 20 know. What are some of the attributes you want to 21 see? You want to see -- you know, Entergy can't 22 provide these engineering -- the basic engineering 23 services for these components like hardness and all 24 that sort of stuff. You know, you're supposed to be 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 able to trust -- a reputable company to do all that 1
sort of stuff, and do the safety testing. And they 2
know what their couplings and what they're doing, and 3
what they can do. They have the studies to prove it 4
and stuff like that, so what is this company from 5
Turkey? You know, it bothers me that they're -- that 6
the corporation is in Turkey.
7 HydroAir was the company that was -- you 8
know what they specialize? Everybody knows that. They 9
specialize in reverse engineering. Whoa, whoa, whoa, 10 what's reverse engineering in a nuclear plant? How 11 widespread is reverse engineering?
12 You know, China stole all our jobs from us 13 by reverse engineering, or a lot of our components, 14 and a lot of our equipment and stuff like that. And 15 we're reverse engineering high-tech couplings from 16 Turkey? You know, we ought to think about that --
17 these things.
18 You know, insufficient spare parts on a 19 national level is a problem. A lot of times, you know, 20 they give you one with the gasket issue, and they 21 didn't have the right Flexitallic gasket, and they 22 stuck another type of gasket in there, and it was the 23 wrong kind and stuff. So, it gets you to -- you know, 24 what is the adequate amount of spare parts on site?
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 And what does it mean if they don't have an adequate 1
set of spare parts, and it always forces them to call 2
over to California and wait for the spare part to come 3
on board. And they've got these short LCOs and stuff.
4 And it forces people -- you know, it forces people to 5
do inhuman activities because everybody is so rushed 6
and stuff. What does that mean?
7 You know, like I said, it's a 40-pound --
8 it's a 40-foot shaft, and I think -- you know, like I 9
said, it's six inches of metal, three inches thick in 10 diameter, and about a half an inch, a little bit more 11 than half an inch thick. I think -- a 350 horsepower 12 engine, I think that those are too small.
13 You know, I'm not an engineer but you look 14 at that stuff and -- how about the -- you know, that 15 contractor that did the study, they talked about 16 tensile -- tension causes that IGCSS whatever. And, 17 you know, and Entergy bumps those pumps with the --
18 torquing those couplings. The shafts abut each other 19 in the middle of the coupling and stuff, but they 20 don't use any torquing device. I mean, it's science.
21 You have measurements and limits, and you know the 22 limits of material and stuff like that. And you're 23 spinning up a pump to torque a coupling? Something is 24 wrong there doing that kind of stuff and not using 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 instrumentations.
1 You know, the coupling was split right in 2
the middle. You know, that sounds like a -- right 3
where the weep hole is. You know, to me that looks 4
like a weakness in the system, you know, right in the 5
crack between the two shafts. That sounds like the 6
coupling itself was inherently weak and there was some 7
sort of either tension or torquing thing bending the 8
metal a little bit each time. And that led to cracking 9
and -- stress cracking and that's actually the IGSCC 10 and stuff, you know.
11 Then you start talking about this wetting 12 and drying process that goes on. It's not a desert.
13 I've seen inside a service water bay. There's a lot 14 of flow, a lot of spray of water on the components and 15 stuff. How does it dry out? How does the water get in 16 that -- what is the model we use to explain how that 17 water gets inside the coupling through that hole? You 18 know, the shaft is spinning really fast at, I don't 19 know, 3,000 rpms [rpm] or whatever. How does that 20 water stay in there? How did the salt get in there? Is 21 the salt in the water? How does it dry out in the 22 threads and stuff? I see no science at all in here and 23 stuff, you know, that -- it probably came by human 24 hands how that salt got in there and stuff, you know, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 far as I know. Why isn't it, you know, the water 1
getting -- you know, make a case of turbulence of the 2
shaft spinning around and the flow coming up. You make 3
cases, lot of flow in and out of that little hole. You 4
can make a case there's no flow, and you can make a 5
case there's a lot of flow out that little hole, and 6
it's flushing the salt out of there. So, how does that 7
flush -- how does that salt get in there and set this 8
whole thing up?
9 Where's the science?
Where's the 10 repeatability? Where's people saying let's go put this 11 thing in -- let's set it up like it's out there. Let's 12 see if we can repeat the kind of corrosion mechanisms 13 that are going on here. You've got some shafts having 14 no coupling failures, and you got one shaft having two 15 coupling failures.
16 You know, you've got a puzzle here, and 17 you start putting half the puzzle together, and you 18 get half the puzzle put together and you start looking 19 around. You can't get any more pieces to fit together, 20 and then you say to yourself, you know, we've got two 21 puzzles here. We've got -- we don't have a whole 22 puzzle. We've got two different puzzles and the pieces 23 don't fit together.
24 Entergy -- 416 stainless steel Austin -- I 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 used to be able to say that but I can't say it now, 1
whatever, stainless steel. You know what it's noted 2
for? It's cheap steel. It's cheap stainless steel.
3 That's what it's noted for. You know, with all this 4
going on in the service water systems and what they 5
supply why aren't they using really good steel? Why 6
are they taking the cheap steel?
7 You know what's another thing that bugs me 8
is the shafts. The shafts were replaced in 2008 and 9
stuff, you know. And they're replaced by 416 type 10 stainless steel, the same stuff is the coupling and 11 stuff, so why is -- what's going on here? Why isn't 12 anybody giving the shafts a clean bill of health? How 13 come there's not corrosion -- if there's corrosion on 14 a 416 stainless steel on the coupling, how come 15 there's none on the shafts? How come -- you know, if 16 you changed in to a different kind of stainless steel, 17 probably a more expensive stainless steel, how come 18 the shafts aren't changed out? Because that's the same 19 kind of steel that is noted for corrosion as the 20 couplings. You know, science, this is all science kind 21 of questions and stuff like that.
22 And like I say, you know, the puzzle 23 doesn't fit together. There's all different pieces of 24 different puzzles in here, and it's driving us crazy 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 trying to fit them all together.
1 You know, I don't know, the IGSSC, it's 2
just -- were the shafts reverse engineered, you know.
3 You know, they -- you start talking about intellectual 4
rights, and copyright laws. Can anybody just reverse 5
engineer anything they want in the United States and 6
stuff? Like I said, you know, did they get permission 7
to reverse engineer from the Turkish company and stuff 8
like that, you know.
9 Can you believe reverse engineering at a 10 nuclear power plant? HydroAir specializes in reverse 11 engineering in a domestic nuclear power plant. Does 12 every -- you know, words have meaning. Does everybody 13 kind of get what I'm trying to say? I hope you do, 14
- because, you
- know, reverse engineering.
- Again, 15 HydroAir, you know -- Entergy itself said that they 16 walked in to the HydroAir office and they weren't too 17 happy with the way the place looked.
18 You know, why didn't somebody back off, 19 say you know, something is wrong here. You know, 20 something is just not right here. I don't have a 21 procedure in my -- made for this type of thing, but I 22 know right from wrong, and something is wrong here.
23 And stop it, and let's back out of this and do it the 24 right way, you know. How hard is that?
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 Why do we have this fixation -- you know, 1
it's the utility lawyers that drives [drive] the NRC 2
into having a procedure for everything they do. And it 3
makes it so complex that nobody can understand what's 4
going on, including the NRC.
5 Risk analysis, they spend so much time at 6
risk analysis. I call it hocus pocus absolution 7
because it really doesn't make any sense to me.
8 As far as this coupling business, you 9
know, it's not the coupling that's at fault, it's the 10 organization. And when a -- you know, you say okay, 11 how high up does this organization go? How high up 12 does the organization problem go? And, certainly, it's 13 in Palisades, and certainly it's in Entergy as a 14 whole. And I'll tell you what, it's in the NRC, this 15 organizational problem, because this shouldn't be 16 here. None of this stuff should have been at 17 Palisades. It should have been corrected years ago and 18 stuff, you know.
19 Same thing with Browns Ferry and a lot of 20 other plants. And, like I said, with the two plants 21 that are out today, or the ones that got --
22 complexity. The insanity of too much complexity, you 23 know. That's what I call it.
24 Again like I said, you know, with the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 coupling, is the -- is Entergy because of some fault 1
with the component manufacturers, you know, what they 2
don't have, is Entergy defaulting them to be a 3
component engineer? You know, should he have -- you 4
know, you've got to have special kind of specialized, 5
you know -- for a company like the Bowler Company, 6
whatever, you know, you've got to have specialized 7
engineering education in order to do that. And, you 8
know, should really Entergy be doing something like 9
that?
10 I know they're forced into it and stuff 11 like that, but the bigger picture, you know, are we 12 going to force a lot of these big utilities to having 13 that kind of expertise when they really should be 14 watching what's going on in the control room.
15 You know, the question I have is -- so you 16 got me there with the 416 type stainless steel on all 17 the shafts and stuff like that. I hope everybody heard 18 that, because that's really important. Why wasn't 19 those changed out? Why isn't there -- why wasn't --
20 better yet, why wasn't there corrosion on the shafts 21 if that's the same type of metal as the couplings?
22 You know, let's move on to the DC trip.
23 We'll start with the green status indication light for 24 the containment and escape air lock MZ50 not working 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 prior to October 2010 outage and stuff. We don't know 1
how -- you don't know how much before the outage that 2
this green light wasn't working. And when you start 3
talking about DC, you know, anybody that has any 4
experience in the nuclear industry, when you start 5
talking about DC, that's -- the DC light, you know, 6
the alarms are going off in your head that's got to be 7
important if it's DC and stuff. It's got to be really 8
important because they wouldn't waste DC on 9
insignificant stuff.
10 And this DC light was out back in 2010 and 11 stuff. I mean, it just drives me crazy thinking about 12 it, you know. DC -- you know, maybe the public don't 13 understand what DC is, DC power. This is -- Entergy 14 explains it as the emergency power system. The NRC 15 explains it as a euphemism of DC power system, because 16 they don't want to tell the public really it's an 17 emergency power system. They want to, you know, not 18 be totally accurate. And DC is kind of less 19 threatening. And that's the way I feel.
20 You know, DC system, you know, how do you 21 explain a DC system, an emergency DC system at a power 22 plant? You know, how do you explain its consistent --
23 its attributes and what it's made up of? Is it made 24 up with a certain set of qualities of components and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 procedures, and a pedigree? You know, is that how you 1
explain this kind of a D [DC]-- emergency power system 2
of a nuclear power plant?
3 You know, I think, again, you know, I 4
think the way you do it is you kind of say, you know, 5
it's kind of like a -- it's more important than what 6
it's made up of. It's like a system of God, or a 7
system of the spirit type of thing. It is so important 8
that it's almost beyond explaining in the purely 9
material or procedure realm and stuff like that. It's 10 such an important system that you have to talk about 11 it in a spiritual sense. It's bigger than what we can 12 explain by the materials and stuff like that. That's 13 how I'd explain this system.
14 You know, like I tell everybody, you know, 15 if they lost both sides of the DC system, they'd be 16 blind and they'd have a broken neck and not be able to 17 move. And it would be very difficult recovering from 18 that.
19 So, you know, there's a discontinuity 20 between how the NRC explains it and how Entergy 21 explains it. Entergy says that they were setting up 22 for this DC light, setting up for surveillance, 23 worrying about a surveillance. They had this thing not 24 working since 2010, DC light really, you know, a 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 spiritual kind of thing. And they're worrying about an 1
upcoming surveillance and stuff like that. And the NRC 2
just kind of blows by it. And, you know, with us we 3
kind of look and say they had 2000 -- before October 4
2010 and they must have gone through a whole bunch of 5
these surveillance. I don't know what the surveillance 6
period is on these things and stuff like that. They 7
must have banged into the surveillance problems over 8
and over again. So, how does it come up like all of a 9
sudden out of nowhere we're worried about a
10 surveillance thing, surveillance -- upcoming three or 11 four days away surveillance thing. And now you're 12 going to go check it and stuff.
13 I mean, it's mind boggling. I think that's 14 an unexplored area as far as understanding what -- How 15 this thing happened. And like I said, you know, it's 16 the ability to be anticipatory, to have the big 17 picture, to say to yourself, you know -- believe me, I 18 know rules and laws are important, and I live by 19 following most of the laws, maybe a few, you know, I 20 might -- speeding, I might speed. But I believe in the 21 laws but, you know, it's the idea of -- I think what's 22 in our brains is more important than the laws and the 23 procedures.
24 You know, the idea that we can look out 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 and -- with our experience and see -- and pick out the 1
small problems and say, you know, that's going to be a 2
big problem. That has the potential of being a big 3
problem. That's our humaneness, our humanity, our God-4 given intelligence to do that, to not need a procedure 5
but kind of sit out there and say -- anticipate things 6
and pick out the important stuff. And, you know, it 7
boggles the mind to think you have to wait until, you 8
know, DC accident to care about these things.
9 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Hey, Mr. Mulligan, I just 10 want to give you, I guess a time check. We have about 11 five more minutes for you to complete your 12 presentation.
13 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, you were 10 -- you 14 were 15 minutes late. Right?
15 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Well, we -- I guess we 16 were 10 minutes and we were just going to give you 17 five more minutes so we can go around the room and see 18 if there are any questions for the remaining five 19 minutes.
20 MR. MULLIGAN: Okay, that's fair.
21 So, that whole thing with the DC light I 22 think is a big deal. On September 23 rd, you know, 23 again, you know, I think -- especially the NRC 24 officials, you know, the inspectors really have a lot 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 of information and they're aware of all the stuff 1
that's going on at other plants, but the higher 2
officials, you know, a lot of these guys are like 3
shift supervisors, and old shift supervisors, or they 4
have a lot of experience. And then to get the public 5
to understand -- these officials, you know, they have 6
a wide vision. People at the plant have -- maybe only 7
be at one plant or a few plants, or a fleet of plants, 8
but these NRC officials, they see a broad array of 9
plant problems. And they know the human condition.
10 They see the human condition and all these problems at 11 these plants and stuff like that.
12 I've gotten in the past from NRC 13 inspectors, you know, we don't have a license at the 14 plant. We can't tell the plant what to do because we 15 don't have a license. You know, I just want to -- you 16 know, you -- I think, you know, with this vast 17 experience -- I mean, you're the guys that -- in the 18 plant that was running into problems, you know, as a 19 shift supervisor, or somebody, an advisor. I'd want 20 you guys -- I would want an NRC official in there, you 21 know, maybe working -- I'd want him in there because 22 he has broad experience. He has that invaluable 23 experience above the procedures, that I'd want him in 24 there as an advisor to tell us how things can go bad 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 at other plants. And this is what you should do and 1
stuff like that. So, I think sometimes an NRC official 2
has more experience than a licensed operator at the 3
plant. I think you should be held accountable. I think 4
the NRC should be held accountable for making these 5
plants operate in a certain way because of their 6
experience.
7 These guys, you know, just have a lot of 8
experience, more than anybody else, and they have a 9
broad picture of what's going on out of here. And we 10 shouldn't let them off the hook because they don't 11 have an RO's license, or SRO license.
12 On September 23 rd, two days -- a day or two 13 before the accident, I mean, the NRC should have 14 understood -- should have been watching Palisades a 15 lot more closely. They should have called for maybe 16 outside help if they didn't have enough people to help 17 the inspectors. They should have said, you know, I 18 know that Palisades is in trouble. We don't want to 19 get them overly -- we don't want the public around 20 them to get overly worried about troubles with 21 Palisades. And we've got to really watch these guys 22 carefully.
23 I think that the NRC should have had an 24 awareness of the background of how serious Palisades 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 culture was, and I think as they was walking into this 1
before -- just before September 23 rd, the NRC should 2
have been very concerned about Palisades. And when 3
they started getting their -- well, honestly, I think 4
when they opened up that panel and said, you know --
5 and then they should have asked what kind of work was 6
going to go on in there, or as it got further down 7
they should have asked what was kind of working. And 8
they should have
- said, you
- know, this isn't 9
appropriate for that kind of -- this kind of work is 10 inappropriate for at-power operations, and we won't 11 allow it type of thing.
12 And I think even worse, when they started 13 getting flickering lights in the control room two days 14 before the accident, and the components tripping and 15 valves flip -- tripping shut and stuff like that, 16 common sense tells you -- common sense. You don't need 17 a procedure and stuff like that. Common sense, this 18 spiritual DC power we talk about, should have tripped 19 the NRC into saying this ain't going to happen. This 20 kind of stuff is -- we're not going to allow you to do 21 that at-power. And, matter of fact, they should have 22 demand a stop work order, and they should have 23 demanded Palisades shut down and fix that and stuff 24 like that.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 I think that's a systematic -- a weak 1
regulation nationwide with the NRC. The ability that 2
they -- you've got every excuse in the book for not 3
wanting to do it, President Obama did, and stepped in 4
there without absolutely perfect proof. And do the 5
right thing, and make these plants work.
6 You know, they need triplicate procedures 7
in order to do the right things that they're never 8
going to find anyway and stuff like that. I think the 9
NRC -- you know, I blame this on the NRC. They should 10 have controlled Palisades before this, and prevented 11 this from happening. This is common. Skills that the 12 NRC is supposed to have and they're trained for, and I 13 think this is a huge failure with the NRC of 14 controlling Palisades.
15 I find it most troubling the auxiliary 16 feed pump tripped within a couple of weeks and stuff 17 like that. I talked to the NRC inspector, and they 18 didn't -- they let Palisades start up not knowing what 19 would cause the recirc valve to trip. I find it 20 astonishing that, you know, Palisades and Entergy can 21 do whatever they want, as long as they've got some 22 Archaean procedure that might back them up a little 23 bit and stuff like that. But nobody forces them to do 24 the right thing. Nobody forces them to pay a price.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 You know, the only thing that matters is that Entergy 1
makes $2 million a day revenues from Palisades plant 2
and stuff like that.
3 And what changes behavior is people being 4
punished. If they can't do it on their own, it's the 5
punishment that, you know, kind of makes them sit back 6
and think about what they're doing. So, I think that's 7
a huge -- it shouldn't happen. The NRC shouldn't let 8
Palisades do that, to be there with that DC system, 9
especially as they started seeing that the breakers 10 weren't put in there right, and they had -- again, had 11 three to four hundred requests for updates on 12 Fukushima emergency procedures.
13
- Again, how widespread is that at 14 Palisades? You know, how many procedures outside the 15 emergency power procedures are bad at Palisades and 16 stuff like that? That's another thing -- you know, I 17 think Palisades needs to be shut down for six months 18 in order to get their stuff together really when it 19 comes down to it.
20 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Okay, thanks.
21 MR. MULLIGAN: One more thing.
22 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Okay.
23 MR. MULLIGAN: The auxiliary feed pump, the 24 spurious -- Palisades talked about spurious -- the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 trip, and the NRC doesn't agree with that. I think 1
that Entergy does that a lot. They don't just answer 2
the violation at NRC. The idea is to flood them with 3
all sorts of studies and -- they're trying to dilute 4
resources at the NRC so they won't find more problems.
5 I see that across the fleet with Entergy plants where 6
they harass the NRC with paperwork, and phoney science 7
and engineering, and stuff like that. And it's to 8
consume the resources of the NRC and not deal with 9
their problems. I think that's a big problem with 10 Entergy plants. And I think that's it. Thank you very 11 much.
12 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Well, thank you. At this 13 time, let me go around the room here in headquarters 14 to see if there's any questions? Any questions here in 15 headquarters? I see a lot of heads shaking, so no 16 questions at headquarters. Are there any members of 17 the public -- hang on, before I go there, any 18 questions from the Regions?
19 MR. GIESSNER: No questions from Region 20 III.
21 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Thank you. Any -- does the 22 licensee have any questions?
23 MS. JACKSON [DOTSON]: No questions from 24 the licensee.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Okay, thanks. Are there 1
any members of the public that joined the bridge, all 2
of your thoughts in the last hour or so. So, there 3
would be no questions from the public.
4 So, Mr. Mulligan, thank you for taking the 5
time to provide us with the information on the 6
petition you have submitted. And thanks for your 7
patience as we got set up earlier today.
8 Before we close, does the court reporter 9
need any additional information for the meeting 10 transcript?
11 COURT REPORTER: I'm all set, thanks.
12 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: All right, thank you.
13 MR.
MULLIGAN:
Thank you for this 14 opportunity.
15 CHAIRMAN CHEOK: Thank you, again. And with 16 that, this meeting is concluded, and we will be 17 terminating the phone connection. Thanks.
18 (Whereupon, the proceedings went off the 19 record at 12:49:00 a.m. [2:15 p.m.])
20 21 22 23 24 25