ML13112B055
| ML13112B055 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Pilgrim |
| Issue date: | 04/11/2013 |
| From: | Richard Guzman Plant Licensing Branch 1 |
| To: | |
| Guzman R | |
| References | |
| 2.206, G20130174, TAC MF0927, NRC-4116 | |
| Download: ML13112B055 (35) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title: 10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Pilgrim Nuclear Power Station
Docket Number: (n/)
Location: teleconference
Date: Thursday, April 11, 2013
Work Order No.: NRC-4116 Pages 1-33 Edited by Rich Guzman, NRC Petition Manager NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2 + + + + +
3 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB) 4 + + + + +
5 TELECONFERENCE 6 + + + + +
7 In the Matter of:
8 PILGRIM NUCLEAR POWER STATION 9 + + + + +
10 Thursday, April 11, 2013 11 12 BEFORE: 13 JOSEPH G. GIITTER, Chairman 14 JOHN G. BILLERBECK 15 MERRILEE J. BANIC, Petition Coordinator 16 RICH V. GUZMAN, Petition Manager 17 EMILY L. MONTEITH 18 19 PRESENT: 20 JOSEPH LYNCH, Licensing Manager, Pilgrim 21 Nuclear 22 Power Station 23 MICHAEL MULLIGAN, Petitioner 24 25 26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (11:03 a.m.)
2 MR. GUZMAN: Good morning. My name is 3 Rich Guzman. And I'm the Project Manager for Pilgrim 4 Nuclear Power Station in the Office of Nuclear 5 Reactor Regulation, or NRR.
6 I'd like to thank everyone for attending 7 this meeting. The purpose of today's teleconference 8 is to allow the petitioner, Michael Mulligan, to 9 address the Petition Review Board, or PRB, regarding 10 his 2.206 petition dated March 7th, 2013, as 11 supplemented with email correspondence dated March 20 12 and April 5th, 2013 regarding his concerns with 13 safety relief valves at Pilgrim. I'm the petition 14 manager for this petition. The PRB Chairman is Joe 15 Giitter. 16 The teleconference is being recorded by 17 the NRC Operations Center and will be transcribed by 18 a court reporter. The transcript will become a 19 supplement to the petition and will also be made 20 publicly available.
21 Before I briefly go over today's agenda, 22 I would like to open the teleconference with 23 introductions. As we go around the room and bridge 24 line, please be sure to clearly state your name, your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 position, and your office or organization for the 1 record. I'll go ahead and start off.
2 Again, this is Rich Guzman, Project 3 Manager in NRR.
4 MS. BANIC: Lee Banic, 2.206 Petition 5 Coordinator, NRR.
6 MR. BILLERBECK: John Billerbeck, PRB 7 member, mechanical engineer, NRR.
8 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Joe Giitter. I'm the 9 PRB Chairman, NRR.
10 MR. GUZMAN: And we've completed 11 introductions here at NRC headquarters. At this 12 time, are there any NRC headquarter participants who 13 have dialed in on the phone?
14 (No response.)
15 MR. GUZMAN: Will the NRC participants 16 from regional offices introduce themselves if you're 17 on the line?
18 (No response.)
19 MR. GUZMAN: Okay. At this time, will 20 the representatives for Entergy, the licensee for 21 Pilgrim, introduce yourself?
22 MR. LYNCH: Good morning. This is Joseph 23 Lynch. I'm the Licensing Manager at Pilgrim Nuclear 24 Power Station.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4 MR. GUZMAN: And, Mr. Mulligan, would you 1 please introduce yourself for the record?
2 MR. MULLIGAN: Michael Mulligan, 3 whistleblower. I worked in the industry, worked at 4 Vermont Yankee, was a licensed operator for a while.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. GUZMAN: And, Emily, you are on the 7 line. Would you introduce yourself, please, Emily 8 Monteith?
9 (No response.)
10 MR. GUZMAN: Okay. With that, are there 11 any others, such as members of the public, on the 12 phone? 13 (No response.)
14 MR. GUZMAN: Okay. And, for our Court 15 Reporter, can you please restate your name?
16 THE REPORTER: Hi. I'm Matt Miller with 17 Neal R. Gross Court Reporters.
18 MR. GUZMAN: Thanks, Matt.
19 Okay. A brief overview of the agenda.
20 The teleconference is scheduled from 11:00 a.m. to 21 12:00 p.m. Eastern time. Following my introduction, 22 I will turn it over to the PRB Chairman, who will 23 provide opening remarks and briefly summarize the 24 scope of the petition under consideration. Mr.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5Mulligan will then give his presentation. And, 1 finally, the PRB Chairman will conclude the 2 conference call with closing remarks.
3 I would like to emphasize that we each 4 need to speak up and speak clearly to ensure that the 5 Court Reporter can accurately transcribe this 6 teleconference. Also, if you have something you 7 would like to say, please state your name first for 8 the record. For those dialing into the 9 teleconference, please remember to mute your phones 10 to minimize any background noise or distractions. If 11 you don't have a mute button, this can be done by 12 pressing the keys *6 and then to unmute, press the *6 13 keys again. Thank you.
14 At this time, I will turn it over to PRB 15 Chairman Joe Giitter.
16 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Good morning, 17 everybody. Welcome to this meeting regarding Mr.
18 Mulligan's 2.206 petition.
19 First, I would like to start off to ask 20 the question, does anybody -- would anybody like some 21 background on this process or is everyone familiar 22 with it? 23 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm good.
24 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. If I don't --
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6 MR. MULLIGAN: Mike Mulligan.
1 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Yes. Thank you. So 2 if that is okay with you, Mr. Mulligan, I would like 3 to go ahead and skip that background discussion.
4 So the purpose of today's teleconference 5 is to give Mr. Mulligan, the petitioner, an 6 opportunity to provide any additional details or 7 explanation to support his petition before the PRB.
8 And that is to -- prior to the PRB's initial 9 consideration and ultimately recommendation.
10 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 11 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 12 examine the PRB on the merits of the issues presented 13 in the petition request. No decisions regarding the 14 merits of this petition will be made during this 15 teleconference. And following the teleconference, 16 the PRB will conduct its internal deliberations. And 17 the outcome of this internal meeting will be 18 discussed with the petitioner.
19 As everyone probably knows, the PRB 20 typically consists of the Chairman, which is me in 21 this case; usually a manager at the Senior Executive 22 level. It also has a petition manager and a PRB 23 coordinator. Other members of the Board are 24 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7the information in the petition request. And today 1 we have John Billerbeck from the Component 2 Performance and Testing Branch within NRR; Mr.
3 Muhammad Razzaque from the Reactor Systems Branch.
4 Unfortunately, he's off sick today. We also have 5 advice from Office of General Counsel. I understand 6 Emily Montieth is being tied in from Region III.
7 Emily, did you --
8 MS. MONTEITH: Yes.
9 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. So, as 10 described in our process, the NRC staff may ask 11 clarifying questions in order to better understand 12 Mr. Mulligan's presentation and to reach a reasoned 13 decision once you accept or reject a petitioner's 14 request for review under the 2.206 process.
15 Additionally, the licensee may ask questions to 16 clarify the issues raised by the petitioner.
17 So I would like to very briefly summarize 18 the scope of the petition under consideration. On 19 March 7th, 2013, Mr. Mulligan submitted to the NRC a 20 petition under 2.206 regarding concerns with the 21 safety relief valves at Pilgrim Nuclear Power 22 Station. In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan 23 requests the NRC immediately shut down Pilgrim 24 Nuclear Power Station on the basis that the licensee 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8 is operating the plant in an unsafe condition with 1 defective or inoperable safety relief valves.
2 The petitioner also indicates, in part, 3 that Entergy is incapable of maintaining safety and 4 quality at the plant. The petitioner also requests 5 the NRC to not allow the Pilgrim plant to restart 6 following shutdown until they understand pass/failure 7 mechanisms of defective SRVs at Pilgrim.
8 Additionally, Mr. Mulligan is concerned 9 that the repeated nature of the failure of the SRVs 10 at Pilgrim demonstrates that Entergy does not 11 understand the mechanisms of failure and that the 12 defective or inoperable SRVs at a nuclear power plant 13 resulted in unsafe condition.
14 Mr. Mulligan alleges that NRC allowing 15 the plant to operate with unsafe SRVs until the next 16 refueling outage and is covering up an unsafe 17 condition at Pilgrim. Mr. Mulligan requests an 18 investigation by the Office of the Inspector General 19 for this concern.
20 In terms of NRC activities to date, the 21 PRB met initially on March 18th to review the 22 petitioner's request for immediate action. And based 23 on that meeting, the PRB concluded there is no 24 immediate safety issue to the plant or to the health 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9 and safety of the public to justify the petitioner's 1 request for immediate action, which would be an 2 emergency plant shutdown. Mr. Mulligan was informed 3 of that decision on March 25th, 2013.
4 As a reminder, for the phone call 5 participants, please identify yourself if you make 6 any remarks as this will help us in the preparation 7 of the meeting transcript, which is being prepared by 8 Mr. Miller. And that transcript will be made 9 publicly available.
10 Mr. Mulligan, I will now turn it over to 11 you to allow you to provide any information you 12 believe the PRB should consider as part of this 13 petition.
14 MR. MULLIGAN: Hi. I'm Mike Mulligan.
15 And, you know, so I'm just going to, you know, quote 16 here. This is from Palisades February 22nd, 2010.
17 This is a 2.206. It failed again to do anything.
18 Don't you wish you had a button on your 19 computer where it would give you a yellow, red, or 20 green light? How are you doing now? How will the 21 whole of Entergy do in a year, two years, or five 22 years? Where will the NRC be stationed in the next 23 decade? Is it going to boggle the mind, what the NRC 24 discovers the next year or two at Palisades just like 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10the last two years? I say they are going to find 1 bigger and more repetitive problems, not that this 2 will present our nation's long-term interest making 3 -- 4 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Mr. Mulligan, I'm 5 sorry to cut you off, but I'd really like to stick to 6 the issues at hand. And since we're talking about 7 Pilgrim, I'm not sure what the relevance of Palisades 8 is at this point.
9 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, the relevance of 10 Palisades is that it shows a pattern of problems at 11 Palisades, at Arkansas, at Vermont Yankee, at 12 Pilgrim, and stuff like that. And it lends to a 13 pattern that Entergy is a rogue company and they're 14 out of control. And the NRC can't control them.
15 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. If you don't 16 mind, could you get to the heart of the matter: your 17 concern about the SRVs at Pilgrim?
18 MR. MULLIGAN: Don't I have an ability to 19 lend out what I want to say without --
20 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: I just want to make 21 sure that the focus -- because we only have an hour 22 here. And I do have to leave for a public meeting in 23 less than an hour. I just want to make sure that, 24 you know, we give you ample time to discuss your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 issue on Pilgrim.
1 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, you know, I'm 2 probably one of the most skilled guys that are doing 3 these -- failing on these 2.206s. And if you have 4 any knowledge of me and stuff like that, I generally 5 wrap it up in the right time frame and stuff like 6 that. 7 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. All right. Go 8 ahead. 9 MR. MULLIGAN: I've done this over and 10 over again and to say that, you know, I'm keyed like, 11 you know, I'm going to go rogue, you know.
12 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: No. I just want to 13 make sure that you have ample time to focus to 14 provide us with the information on the Pilgrim SRVs.
15 Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt.
16 MR. MULLIGAN: Do you get what I'm 17 saying? I'm saying that --
18 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Yes. I understand. I 19 understand what you're saying. Go ahead.
20 MR. MULLIGAN: History teaches us 21 unimaginable things are going to go on behind the 22 security fence of Palisades. And the NRC misses the 23 really important stuff, better than the NRC doesn't 24 have the power to make Entergy meet the greater aims 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 of us all.
1 And so, you know, I was trying to get the 2 NRC to -- you know, to engage with Entergy and 3 behavior. You know, the problems seems to jump into 4 one plant, then jump into another, then jump into 5 another. They must send a lot of personnel or 6 expertise over the troubled plant and then another 7 plant gets ignored and that type of thing, which I'm 8 worried about. And so here, you know -- you know, 9 I'm trying to lay that out. Give me a second here.
10 Let's talk about the timeline. January 11 1st, well-known electric shortage was developed in 12 our New England grid; April, May 2011, New SRV valves 13 installed. December 26th, 2011, Pilgrim plant had 14 its first leak. It was shut down for a three-day 15 shutdown. November 27th, 2012, November 27th -- I've 16 got that mixed up, but, anyway, moving on ISO, sir, 17 the grid crisis over natural gas has begun. We have 18 a shortage of electricity. January 20th, 2003, 19 second week, requires plant shutdown and then another 20 three-day outage. January 21st, 2001, going on ISO 21 search grid emergency, mandatory rolling blackouts 22 and really cold weather. January 24th, 2013, New 23 England ISO says natural gas shortage began in 24 earnest with 300 megawatts of electricity. January 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 of -- 1 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Excuse me, Mr.
2 Mulligan. We have the timeline in front of us, which 3 we can read. Is there something you would like to 4 elaborate on the timeline?
5 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, on the timeline, it 6 basically says, you know, you look at this thing and 7 the NRC has the inability to control Entergy and the 8 Pilgrim plant and Arkansas Nuclear Plant and stuff 9 like that. And then you see that the New England 10 grid itself, New England ISO, is mired in some sort 11 of political game and may have the inability to 12 anticipate problems and set the grid up to be 13 reliable.
14 You know, this whole thing should have 15 been taken care of a couple of years ago, seen, and 16 they should have manipulated their components and 17 system around and so there was never ever a threat of 18 a shortage of electricity. And then you see this.
19 You've got a blizzard coming up and stuff like that.
20 And then you see that the plant trips during the 21 blizzard and that type of thing. And it's just 22 mind-boggling that we don't have a reliable grid 23 system. And that's what this New England business --
24 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. I'm trying to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 understand how that relates to the SRV concern.
1 MR. MULLIGAN: How does it relate?
2 Because everything is connected. You know, 3 everything is connected. Whether it's the grid is 4 reliable and that asks us, you know, if the grid 5 isn't reliable, will we have an issue where we won't 6 be able to provide electricity in an emergency to a 7 plant like Pilgrim plant and that type of thing?
8 Then next you've got -- you go down that 9 timeline and stuff like that. It's mind-boggling why 10 we would even have a plant trip in places like that 11 when you really get down to think about it. You 12 know, you have the grid lines were fluctuating in and 13 out and all that sort of stuff. And I'll talk about 14 they had many plant trips in so-called severe weather 15 and all that sort of stuff. It's a repetitive 16 pattern of not having the grid prepared for the 17 climate. 18 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. We have the 19 timeline. Do you have any additional comments on the 20 timeline?
21 MR. MULLIGAN: So we had a plant trip, 22 right? When we had a plant trip, we had a loop, one 23 of the most consequential accidents you can have at a 24 plant without a meltdown. This really threatens 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15everybody. They actually had two loops. And then 1 according to the New England ISO and all that sort of 2 stuff, during all of this SRV business and stuff like 3 that, the grid itself was threatened repeatedly with 4 shortages of electricity and high spiking 5 electricity. It's mind-boggling that you set up a 6 grid like this that is supposed to support a nuclear 7 power plant and emergency. And then all of these 8 things intertwine together where you end up in pretty 9 serious trouble. And then you have SRVs over 10 numerous incidences indicate leakage and that type of 11 stuff. 12 And so I just want everybody to 13 understand this, the system behind this. It's not 14 just a broken relief valve. It's a broken set of 15 regulators that creates this situation. And, instead 16 of seeing it in a rules-based type of situation 17 that's primitive at best, it's better to think of 18 this as holistically. You know, how does the 19 political system control doing an ISO, create a 20 stable grid? And how does the NRC control? How does 21 the NRC control the reliability of the Pilgrim 22 station? 23 Just give me a second here.
24 (Pause.)
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 MR. MULLIGAN: So facts about doing the 1 grid, you know, a different -- the loops. The plant 2 was without electricity for a couple of days more or 3 less I think like that and talks about a tap on the 4 main transformer that is causing the short and stuff.
5 And now my computer is not working. I can't pull up 6 this LER. And there is another LER in 2008 that 7 essentially has the same issue. Well, it's on a 8 start-up transformer.
9 And Entergy basically promises that ice 10 was falling off the main transformer and another 11 resister or something like that. You know, the lines 12 weren't qualified for the grid or qualified for the 13 weather and stuff like that. And they promised to 14 look into that thoroughly. And then the same thing 15 happens during a plant trip with the SRVs and stuff 16 like that.
17 And then we find out that, you know, they 18 really didn't -- you know, the 2,000 LER promises 19 that they were going to make the grid more -- their 20 transmission system -- their switchyard system more 21 reliable. And they were going to look into all of 22 these ice-falling things and causing shorts and stuff 23 like that. And, of course, then we have the loop 24 over an ice that shouldered the thing.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 So we have issues with the SRV. We have 1 inappropriate operation of the plant when the 2 blizzard was approaching and causing surges in the 3 line from the plant. I am surprised. I don't even 4 know if Entergy had any kind of meeting before the 5 blizzard and talking about all the other past events 6 where they had severe weather and it caused a plant 7 to trip. 8 In this LER, 2008 with the ice trip, they 9 identify 4 or 5 other severe weather trips and stuff.
10 And in this thing, it talks about severe weather, 11 severe weather, severe weather, severe winter 12 blizzard. And then you start looking up the weather 13 report, and it was just a regular snowstorm.
14 So, you know, honesty and ethics. How 15 does Entergy get away with mischaracterizing the 16 weather conditions in their interests, you know, like 17 the severe blizzard, out of our ability to control 18 and stuff like that?
19 Again, this blizzard, this Nemo business 20 and stuff like that, that was only the fifth worst 21 blizzard we ever had. So that questions, you know.
22 Is the grid reliable enough to support the plant?
23 Why is the Pilgrim plant having all of these plant 24 trips in severe weather? How come? You know, it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18shouldn't have happened in 2008 if they did what they 1 said they were going to do and repair and inspect the 2 plant and never trip that plant again.
3 And especially it wasn't just the plant 4 trip. It was a plant trip that then caused another 5 loop. You had two loops there and stuff like that; 6 again, one of the most riskful events a plant can 7 have. It really drives the plant and a risky 8 behavior and stuff.
9 And so, like I said, that snowstorm was 10 really a minor snowstorm and stuff like that. But 11 they put it on the LERs severe storms, severe winter 12 blizzard. So it questions the truthfulness as far as 13 being able to -- and it questions whether Entergy can 14 keep that -- figure out how to keep that plant from 15 shifting during blizzards, especially during the 16 reliability of that plant, whether it's 17 weather-related, either blizzards, other storms, and 18 stuff like that.
19 How come you can't -- it's easy 20 engineering to keep that plant reliable. How come 21 they can't do that? How come they have a repetitive 22 pattern of not keeping that plant in the condition 23 whether the normal weather or maybe a moderate or a 24 minor blizzard -- how come they can't keep that plant 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 reliable?
1 You know, if Pilgrim is unreliable and 2 stuff like that, it gives everybody an excuse to jack 3 up electric rates and stuff like that. And everybody 4 plays around and, you know, as I said, I think the 5 New England ISO was a corrupt organization. I think 6 right there where the Enron and the California 7 debacle as far as our electric prices and this here 8 we've got a miracle of natural gas fracting, dragging 9 the prices down, across the board, throughout the 10 country. 11 And here we've got -- you know, they've 12 got us in a bottleneck with natural gas. And their 13 regulatory people can't between themselves figure out 14 what is best for the United States and what is best 15 for New England and that type of thing. And so 16 that's what I -- you know, so it all fits together, 17 you know, a plant in trouble and --
18 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: All right. I 19 appreciate your comments, Mr. Mulligan.
20 MR. MULLIGAN: You know, this is --
21 you're throwing me off. This is what really is 22 happening here. You throw me off.
23 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: I thought you were 24 done. 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 MR. MULLIGAN: No. Wait. Wait. Listen 1 to me. Would you listen to me? I have been doing 2 this over and over again. And they let me usually 3 say my piece and stuff like that. And this is 4 different. What is going on here is different than 5 it ever has been going on in the past. Now, if you 6 would have called me and explained to me how you are 7 going to be different, I would --
8 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: I thought you were 9 done talking. I apologize.
10 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, if you knew anything 11 about how I -- if you knew anything how I interacted 12 in the past over numerous times and stuff like that 13 and talked to your buddies, you would have 14 understood. We have a pattern here. We have always 15 had a pattern of you let me talk and you don't 16 disrupt me.
17 And, actually, I think this is part of 18 the coverup. The NRC is trying to disrupt me and not 19 let me get my say out of here and stuff like that and 20 unnerve me.
21 And it's radically different than how the 22 NRC during a 2.206 ever treated me in the past in the 23 last five years. So I don't know what's going on as 24 far as what all this disruption, interruption, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21all this sort of stuff are you've done. Nobody has 1 ever done that to me in the past. So this is 2 radically different than it's ever -- how the NRC has 3 ever treated me.
4 So, anyway, you know, a problem. So, you 5 know, that you had -- you had two shutdowns, right, 6 then just before the Nemo snowstorm? The plant had 7 been restricted to 80 percent power. Then you went 8 into the Nemo snowstorm, and the plant tripped. You 9 started back up after -- I don't know -- a week or so 10 like that. Within another couple of weeks, another 11 leak developed. Within another couple -- so you 12 restricted to 90 percent power. Then after another 13 week like that, another -- until recently, I think 14 March 30th and stuff like that, you went down to 84 15 percent power.
16 And there's been no discussion of why 17 those are leaking, what was leaking post-Nemo.
18 There's been no LER on the second shutdown and stuff 19 like that. So this is all a coverup. This is all a 20 coverup to get the plant into an outage to get the 21 plant out of the severe grid crisis with not having a 22 lot of electricity, enough electricity to support the 23 New England and stuff like that.
24 So, you know, how come the plant is so 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.
C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22unreliable? How come the plant has one of the 1 largest grid crises we've had in recent memory? How 2 come this SRV business that has been churning out 3 here with the plant shutdowns and then there are 4 certain secret leaks with SRV?
5 How come this behavior of harassing me 6 when I'm in the 2.206 process and stuff like that?
7 How come we can't get to the root of this? How come 8 people can't discuss things honestly and talk about 9 it and lay out what they think is the problem going 10 on here? And why does the NRC have to be so 11 militaristic with me as far as disrupting me and all 12 that sort of stuff? You know, this is just a pattern 13 of a coverup.
14 And, like I have been saying, whether the 15 NRC was listening to me since -- as I was discussing 16 back in Palisades time and Vermont Yankee and stuff, 17 we wouldn't have had this problem. If you would have 18 been listening to me, we wouldn't have had this 19 problem with a death at Arkansas 1 and stuff. You 20 won't have had -- you won't have lost two plants.
21 They're struggling to get another plant up and stuff.
22 You don't know what the nature of the damage with 23 the turbine building of the scatter that fell off a 24 crane and that type of stuff. And so it seems like 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 I'm just trying to have a nice -- here for -- what is 1 it? -- the moments, the minutes that I had if I 2 wasn't -- been disrupted so much, militaristically 3 disruptive.
4 And, like I said, you know, as far as the 5 NRC talking with me in the last -- about -- I called 6 up the revenue inspector. I called up the NRC 7 inspector, I mean, the PR guy. And, you know, you 8 think that the -- you know, you guys would want to 9 talk to somebody like me, who has a little bit of 10 experience, and we could talk about the issues and 11 why this is happening and all that sort of stuff.
12 But you just -- you know, you threw up a security 13 shield on me more or less.
14 What is that nature of all the secrecy 15 with the NRC? Do you have issues with one of the 16 local groups and the NRC -- they caught the NRC with 17 the use fuel pattern, pattern stuff, and the NRC was 18 disruptive. They immediately admit that this pattern 19 was being constructed. What is the secrecy?
20 Why does everybody use rules to create 21 secrecy instead of using rules to, you know, 22 communicate and talk? How come you guys can't talk 23 in a manner that brings confidence to the public at 24 large and a lot of the people around the nuclear 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24plants? How come you can't -- what is going on with 1 this militaristic type of stuff with the NRC in 2 attacking people and that type of stuff? Is it where 3 you don't want to get the story out that, you know, 4 the natural gas thing and a lot of plants are 5 threatened.
6 And there's a lot of noise underneath it 7 that's screaming out to the NRC that we're in trouble 8 and you have to put a floor on some of this poor 9 performance of a lot of these plants and stuff like 10 that and that type of thing? Is that what's going on 11 here is that the NRC wants to not get the story out 12 of what is really going on? And I'm concerned about 13 that. 14 I'm just checking. Are you still on the 15 line? 16 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Yes. Mr. Mulligan?
17 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes. I was just checking 18 to make sure you are still on the line.
19 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Oh, yes. We're here.
20 I didn't want to unintentionally interrupt you.
21 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, I was wondering if 22 -- good. Can I go on? Can I finish a little bit?
23 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Yes, sir.
24 MR. MULLIGAN: So we know that safety 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 relief valves are behind three feet of concrete, one 1 of the most dangerous components of a plant. They're 2 behind many feet of concrete. And there is a huge 3 radiation field for you. You really don't -- you 4 know, they are permanently instrumented up and the 5 like and stuff. So you really -- it's just 6 deafening.
7 And a plant like Entergy usually -- you 8 know, they get in their direction that benefits them.
9 They don't necessarily get in a way that shows the 10 public the safety. And Davis-Besse, two of the worst 11 accidents in the United States came out of safety 12 relief valves or pilot-operated relief valves.
13 Davis-Besse had a ghost leak essentially, 14 a leak of a pressure-operated relief valve. It was 15 going into the tank, and it was leaking. The plant 16 was leaking for years in a host of other areas and 17 stuff like that. And then it was leaking into this 18 tank. And they did a whole bunch of stuff.
19 Actually, they finally got the leak 20 stopped, but when Davis-Besse, the leaks began, a 21 so-called ghost leak appeared. In other words, they 22 kept saying -- using the rationale that "Oh, it might 23 be that, a pilot-operated relief valve leaking again.
24 We have a history of that valve leaking in the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26containment. And that is what is causing our 1 problem" and stuff. But it wasn't leaking. And they 2 kept using that excuse, too, you know. They shut 3 down. And somebody stumbled across the broken relief 4 valve. 5 In Davis-Besse, they had, again -- TMI.
6 Sorry. TMI they had issues with maintenance of the 7 relief valves and poor operation. They had a caution 8 tag not to operate it, operate the valves. And then 9 the event happened and they got confused. The tag 10 was -- they got confused on the indication. They had 11 support springs and stuff like that.
12 And this relief was implicated in the 13 reason, among other things, why the plant melted 14 down. But, yet, two accidents essentially revolved 15 around a lot of the relief valves, these relief 16 valves and BWRs.
17 And, of course, they're implicated in all 18 of our bad accidents, really. They really didn't 19 cause a meltdown. There are a lot of other things 20 involved in it, but it created the justification to 21 not take the safe way out and just shut the plant 22 down and fix the problems and all that sort of stuff.
23 I'm just laying out the case that safety 24 relief valves are nothing to be playing around about, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27nothing to be playing with. They should be -- if 1 they show indications of it being -- indications of 2 leakage, they should have to burden that they have 3 that valve in a condition where no leaks are 4 tolerated during operation and stuff. It should be 5 reliable valves.
6 Here they are new valves, brand new 7 valves and stuff. And, of course, the first LER, the 8 only LER in the LER update, basically says, "We find 9 no problems with the SRV valve." They had the 10 Southern Company. They have Entergy. And what is 11 the other company? Who was the other? They had a 12 host of people looking over this valve, over the new 13 SRV valve, saying that, "Nothing is wrong with your 14 leak of the new SRVs." 15 And then they had, like I said, another 16 shutdown. Then they had another big leak. They shut 17 down. Within a week or two, they set it up. Some 18 other valve leaked. You know, then you had the down 19 to 80 percent -- I mean, to 90 percent. And then it 20 went down to restriction of 80 percent. And so you 21 sit here and say, "Why? Who chose these unreliable 22 valves? How did these valves become so unreliable?" 23 And, like I'm saying with the Arkansas Nuclear, you 24 know, all their troubles, 700, that 600 data was 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28rolled in that over there at first. The record 1 weighed 400 tons. And this guy weighed something 2 like 600 tons.
3 And let me tell you the Arkansas plant 4 there, the two facilities, it looks like a NASCAR 5 crash as far as incidents and stuff like that.
6 Palisades, unbelievable set of 7 operational problems. And also they list human 8 health when they're fiddling around with an up in 9 D.C. circuit, you know, and stuff like that without 10 the proper safeguards and stuff like that. So 11 Entergy has a pattern of being careless over employee 12 safety and stuff. You would think this would --
13 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Mr. Mulligan?
14 MR. MULLIGAN: Yeah.
15 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Yeah. I didn't want 16 to interrupt again, but did you have any additional 17 comments?
18 MR. MULLIGAN: How many more minutes have 19 I got? 20 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Excuse me?
21 MR. MULLIGAN: Do you know how many more 22 minutes I have?
23 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: No, I don't, but we do 24 need to wind up here fairly quickly because we did 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29reserve an hour. I just wanted to make sure because 1 you had paused again. I didn't want to interrupt you 2 if you had more to offer.
3 MR. MULLIGAN: I've got some notes. I'm 4 just looking quickly through it.
5 Oh, you know, in this storm here, 6 Millstone had more snow than Pilgrim did. So how 7 come they operated through a storm? I don't know 8 what their record of plant shutdowns is in severe 9 weather, blizzards, and stuff like that, but how come 10 Millstone was able to operate through the storm? How 11 come Pilgrim wasn't when they had a lot less storm 12 and stuff? So that's the thing.
13 We know that in 2003, LER -- excuse me.
14 In a 2003 storm, one of the worst -- Pilgrim didn't 15 fit. So what causes -- why is it tripping? Is it 16 old and obsolete equipment? What is the nature of 17 it? 18 Another thing I'm going to say is I was 19 talking to the Mass. Attorney General office. And 20 they said the problem with them is that they have no 21 agreement, really, to talk with -- or no mandate for 22 Entergy or Pilgrim to disclose issues at the plant.
23 I mean, a lot of it is voluntary, but there is no 24 hard-core agreement.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 And I just want you to know that up in 1 Vermont, there was a requirement that -- and stuff 2 like that in a very detailed manner reported from 3 Vermont Yankee to the state agency in charge of 4 nuclear power and stuff like that. So how come? You 5 know, it's just interesting that Massachusetts 6 basically -- the Attorney General office basically 7 said, you know, "We don't have any strict requirement 8 or agreement for Pilgrim to report to us. It's all 9 voluntary" and hit or miss as far as who to notify 10 and all that sort of stuff and it's not a point 11 person like a state nuclear engineer, the report to 12 the DPS or the report to the Attorney General's 13 office and stuff like that. So that's a pattern of 14 Massachusetts not setting the ground rules and 15 concrete and defining what Pilgrim is going to report 16 to the state.
17 And, you know, that gives the politicians 18 a plausible deniability, "Oh, well. You know, 19 Pilgrim never reported that problem to us. So you 20 can't blame us" and stuff. So a lot of times, a 21 situation like this when reportability state is not 22 required and stuff like that, this is to protect the 23 politicians and the people in the other offices at 24 DPS and whatever you call it and the Attorney General 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31-- you know, they don't -- you know, you can't --
1 Pilgrim could be a problem, you know, down the line 2 here. And behind -- you know, because of this setup, 3 the state could say, "Oh, we never knew how bad 4 Pilgrim was" and stuff. And that's a big problem.
5 We had that with Vermont Yankee. And I 6 took care of that problem by creating a situation 7 where we created a statewide debate on, you know, a 8 memorandum of understanding, operate the new 9 memorandum of understanding, as far as, you know, 10 what can be said, what can be disclosed and stuff.
11 So most of the stuff Vermont Yankee just reported to 12 the state engineer.
13 And so, you know, I'm just saying the 14 Attorney General office told me that it's not the 15 case with Pilgrim. It's hit or miss. There's no 16 requirement or no direct mandatory requirement that 17 the report -- or, you know, most things going on at 18 the plant, especially --
19 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: I'm sorry. Mr.
20 Mulligan?
21 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes?
22 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: We're going to have to 23 wind down here because I have to provide an opening 24 for a public meeting that starts in about ten 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32minutes. So what I'd like to do is see if the staff 1 here at headquarters has any additional questions for 2 you if --
3 MR. MULLIGAN: They don't have any 4 questions for me.
5 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: I have to ask them 6 anyway. So does anybody have any questions for Mr.
7 Mulligan?
8 (Whereupon, there was a chorus of "No.")
9 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. Before I 10 conclude the meeting, I would also ask if there are 11 any members of the public that may provide comments 12 regarding the petition or ask questions about the 13 2.206 petition process. I don't think we had any on 14 the phone, but I'll ask the question in case somebody 15 has joined.
16 (No response.)
17 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. It sounds like 18 we don't have anybody.
19 MR. MULLIGAN: And I just want to get one 20 more thing.
21 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Yes?
22 MR. MULLIGAN: I think that in the 23 beginning, you were -- the NRC. I won't get 24 personal, but the NRC was really rude to me and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 disruptive because they didn't know all the other 1 ones went. This was off normal as far as how it was 2 -- you disrupted me and got me off my thought train 3 and stuff. And I interpreted it as being rude and 4 disrespectful and part of a coverup. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. Well, thank you 6 for that feedback.
7 Mr. Mulligan, I'd like to thank you for 8 taking the time to provide the NRC staff with the 9 clarifying information on the petition you have 10 submitted. Before we close, does the Court Reporter 11 need any additional information for the meeting 12 transcripts?
13 THE REPORTER: I'm all set. Thanks.
14 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Okay. Thanks. With 15 that, the meeting is concluded. And we will 16 terminate the phone connection here.
17 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN GIITTER: Thank you, Mr.
19 Mulligan.
20 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 21 concluded at 11:50 a.m.)
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