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{{#Wiki_filter:Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
==Title:==
10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Vermont Yankee Docket Number:    (n/a)
Location:        (telephone conference)
Date:            Wednesday, April 13, 2011 Work Order No.:  NRC-840                          Pages 1-21 IORIGINAL NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1                        UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2                    NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3                                    .++++
4              10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB) 5                                          RE 6                        VERMONT YANKEE PETITION 7                                    +++++
8                                    WEDNESDAY 9                                APRIL 13,      2011 10                                    . . . . .
11                      The conference call was held at 2:00 p.m.,
12  Michael        Cheok,  Chairperson        of    the  Petition    Review 13  Board,        presiding.
14 15  PETITIONER:        MICHAEL MULLIGAN 16 17  PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS 18              MICHAEL CHEOK,        Division Director,        Division of 19                      Risk Assessment,          NRR 20              JAMES KIM,    Petition Manager for 2.206 21                      Petition,        NRR/Division        of    Operating 22                      Reactor Licensing 23              MERRILEE BANIC,      Petition Manager 24              MUHAMMAD RAZZAQUE,        Reactor Systems Branch,            NRR 25              THOMAS SETZER,      Division of Reactor Projects NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433            WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701      www.nealrgross.com
2 NRC HEADQUARTERS        STAFF:
2            NANCY SALGADO,    Branch      Chief,    NRR/Division        of 3                  Operating Reactor Licensing 4
5 ALSO PRESENT:
6            JEFF MEYER,  Vermont Yankee 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433          WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701      www.nealrgross.com
3 1                            P R O C E E D I NG              S 2                                                                          2:00 p.m.
3                      MR. KIM: Good afternoon.                I want to thank 4  everybody          for    attending        this    meeting.        My  name        is 5 James      Kim and I'm a project                  manager.        We  are here 6  today to allow the petitioner, Mr. Michael Mulligan to 7  address        the    Petition        Review      Board      regarding      2.206 8  petition dated              March      17,    2011.        I  am the    petition 9  manager for the petitioner.                    The Petition Review Board 10  Michael Cheok.              As part of the Petition Review Board 11  review        of  this    petition,        Mr. Michael      Mulligan        has 12  requested the opportunity to address the PRB.
13                      This meeting            is    scheduled      from 2:00          to 14  3:00 p.m.          The meeting is            being recorded by the NRC 15  operation center,              and will be transcribed by a court 16  reporter.          The transcript will become a supplement to 17  the petition.              The transcript will also be made.
18                      I would        like    to open        this meeting with 19  introductions.              Everybody in          the room please be sure 20  to clearly speak your name,                    your position and office 21  that you work for within the NRC for the record.                                This 22  is    James      Kim.      I  am a project          for    the  Division of 23  Operating Reactor Licensing in                      NRR.
24                      MS. SALGADO: This is          Nancy Salgado.            I am 25  branch        chief    in    the    Division      of    Operating    Reactor NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433                WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701          www.nealrgross.com
4 1 Licensing NRR.
2                    MR. CHEOK:      I'm Mike Check,        the Division 3 Director for the Division of Risk Assessment in                            NRR.
4                    MS. BANIC:      Merrillee        Banic,    Petition 5 Coordinator,        NRR.
6                    MR. RAZZAQUE: Muhammad Razzaque,              with the 7 Reactor Systems Branch,              NRR.
8                    MR. KIM:      Are there any petitioners from 9 the region office on the phone?
10                    MR. SETZER:        Hi.      This is  Thomas Setzer.
11  I am a Senior Project Engineer in                    Region I.
12                    OPERATOR:      This    is    the  headquarters        ops 13  officer.        I  can do      a  roster playback        if  you would 14  like.        It looks like you are already going ahead with 15  the identifications.
16                    MR. KIM:      That's fine.
17                    OPERATOR:            Would      you  like  a    roster 18  playback or not?
19                    MR. KIM:      No.
20                    OPERATOR:        Okay,      thank you.
21                    MR. KIM:      Okay,    thanks. Okay,  are there 22  any representations for the licensing on the phone?
23                    MR. MEYER:    Yes.      Jeff Meyer,    VY,    on the 24  home.
25                    MR. KIM:      Mr. Mulligan,      would you please NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433            WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701        www.nealrgross.com
5 1  introduce yourself for the record?
2                      MR. MULLIGAN:          I  am Mike Mulligan.                    I 3  once      held    a  license        at    Vermont      Yankee      and    I'm      a 4  whistle blower.
5                      MR. KIM:      Thank you.          It  is  not required 6  for members of the public to introduce themselves for 7  this      call.      However,        if  there      any    members      of      the 8  public on the phone that wish to do that at this time, 9  please state your name for the record?                            There is      none.
10  I would like to emphasize that we each need to speak 11  clearly        and    loudly        to    make    sure      that      the    court 12  reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.                                      If 13  you have something you would like to say, please first 14  speak your name for the record.                          For those that are 15  here      for the meeting,            please    remember        to mute your 16  phone          to    minimize          any    background            noise          or 17  distractions.            If  you do not have a mute button, this 18  can be done by pressing keys *6                        to mute,        then press 19  the *6        keys again.          Thank you.
20                      At this time I turn it                  over to Chairman, 21  Michael Cheok.
22                      MR. CHEOK:        Good afternoon.            Welcome to 23  this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by 24  Mr. Mulligan.
25                      First,        I    would    like        to    share        some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433                WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701            www.nealrgross.com
6 1 background on our process.                  Section 2.206 of Title 10 2  of    the    Code    of    Federal      Regulations        describes        the 3  petition        process.          The  primary      mechanism      for      the 4  public to request enforcement action by the NRC in                                  a 5  public        process.          This    process      permits    anyone          to 6  petition the NRC to take enforcement action related to 7  NRC licensees or license activities.                        Depending on the 8  results of this evaluation,                  NRC will modify,          suspend 9  or reward the license or take any other appropriate 10  enforcement action to resolve the problem.                        This path, 11  guidance          and    disposition        of    the    2.206  petition 12  requests        is  in  management        directive        8.11  which        is 13  publically available.
14                      The purpose of today's meeting is                  to give 15  the      petitioner          an    opportunity          to    provide        any 16  additional explanations                for support for the petition 17  before          the      Petition        Review        Board's      initial 18  consideration and recommendation.                      This meeting is        not 19  a hearing nor is            it    an opportunity for the petitioner 20  to question          or examine        the    PRB    on demerits        or the 21  issues        presented        in  the    petition        request.            No 22  decisions regarding the merits for this petition will 23  be made at this meeting.
24                      Following this meeting the Petition Review 25  Board will conducts its              deliberations.          At the outcome NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433              WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701          www.nealrgross.com
7 1 of this        internal    meeting will be discussed with the 2 petitioner.            The    Petition      Review      Board  typically 3 consists of the chairman,              who is    usually a manager at 4 the Senior Executive Service level at the NRC.                          It  has 5 the petition manager and the PRB coordinator.                            Other 6 members of the board determined by the NRC staff                          based 7 on    the    content  of 'the      information        in the  petition 8 request.
9                    At this time I would introduce the board.
10 I    am      Michael    Cheok,      the    Petition        Review      Board 11 chairman.          James Kim is      the petition manager for the 12 petition under discussion today.                        Merrilee  Banic is 13 the      petition      coordinator.            Our      technical        staff 14 includes Muhammad Razzaque from the Office of Reactor 15 Regulations,        Reactor Systems Branch and Thomas Setzer 16 from NRC Region I's            Division of Reactor Projects.
17                    As part of our process NRC staff                may ask 18 clarifying questions in order to better understand the 19 petitioner's        presentation and the decision to accept 20 or reject        the petitioner's        request      for review under 21 the 2.206 process.
22                    Next I would like to summarize                the scope 23 of    the      petition    under    consideration        and    the      NRC 24 activities        to date.        On March    17,    2011 Mr. Mulligan 25 submitted to the NRC a petition under 2.206 selling NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433            WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701          www.nealrgross.com
8 1 the use of Buna N material                      instead of the originally 2 used      silicon of        main      steam relief              valves.        In    his 3 petition request, Mr. Mulligan,                        (1) requested            Vermont 4  Yankee        Nuclear    Power      Plant      and all          Entergy Nuclear 5 Power        Plants      to    be    immediately            shut      down.            (2) 6 requested          the  licensee        to replace            the    relief      valve 7 Buna      N    material      with      silicon.              (3)    requested          an 8 investigation            of    the    one      for    one        safety      related 9 replacement          parts program before                  startup        throughout 10  Entergy        and    to    consider        the    ongoing        Entergy        QAQC 11  investigation.                  (4)      requested            an      outside          NRC 12  investigation of the NRC behavior for tolerating this 13  atrocious regulatory behavior.                        (5)    requested Vermont 14  Yankee management provide and replace before startup.
15  (6)    requested        Entergy's          senior      staff      be    fired      and 16  replaced          before    the    restart        of    the      plants.              (7) 17  request        a  formation      of    the    local        public      oversight 18  panel around every plant.                      (8)  requested an emergency 19  NRC senior official                oversight panel of reforming the 20  reactor oversight process of the ROP.                                (9)    requested 21  the      national      NRC    oversight          penal        of    outsiders          to 22  oversee and report on the agency's activities.                                      These 23  should be a mixture of professional people and capable 24  lay people.          And    (10)    Mr. Mulligan stated that there 25  are some heavy duty and expediently numerous findings NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433              WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                  www.nealrgross.com
9 1 of problems at Entergy plants during this inspection 2  and    reporting      cycle.        And    he    asked    NRC  to    do      an 3  analysis as to why this is                  occurring.
4                      Next allow me to discuss NRC activities                      to 5  date.        On March 23,        2011,    Mr. Mulligan requested an 6  opportunity to address the PRB by telephone,                        which is 7  the purpose of today's call.                    On March 29,      2011,        the 8  PRB      met    internally        to    discuss        the  request          for 9  immediate        action of the shutdown of Vermont Yankee.
10  The      PRB    denied      the    request      for      immediate      action 11  because there was no immediate safety concerns to the 12  plant or to the health and safety of the public.                                On 13  March 30,      2011,    Mr. Mulligan was informed of the PRB's 14  decision on the immediate action.
15                      As a reminder for the phone participants, 16  please identify yourself if                  you make any remarks as 17  this will help us            in  the preparation of the meeting 18  transcript        that    will    be    made    publically      available.
19  Thank you.
20                      Mr. Mulligan,        I  will      turn this over to 21  you.      I will allow you to provide any information you 22  believe        the  PRB    should      consider        as  part    of      this 23  petition.
24                      MR. MULLIGAN:          Thank you.        Just    a few 25  sentences on this.            Remember yesterday,          I talked about NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433              WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701          www.nealrgross.com
10 1 corrupting language.              We start        the corrupt language or 2 speak inaccurately and it                  kind of snowballs and we end 3 up      in    our  most    of      our      institutional            accidents.
4 Yesterday an NRC official                    talked about          is  there any 5 deaths in        the nuclear industry.                  And he answered no.
6 And the correct answer is                    yes,    there has been deaths 7 at nuclear power plants.                    There has been four of them 8 and the        biggest    one has          been      at  Surry and        that      is 9  interesting          that    those        employees        that      die      were 10 pipefitters.          You know they are kind of considered the 11 bottom of        the barrel.            It    seems      like we don't care 12 about people who are at the bottom of the barrel.                                    And 13 we know that incident had unbelievable ramifications 14 in    1986    or  1987.        It    helped        us    with    erosion        and 15 corrosion of          an assortment            of piping        in    the plant.
16 And so I think those were nuclear related fatalities.
17 And Mr.        Jaczko should have,              considering his academic 18 background,        he should have been able to answer that 19 question fully.
20                    Anyways,      back to Vermont Yankee,                in Ginna, 21 G-I-N-N-A        there's      an      LER,      LER    2009-00.          It    is    a 22 refurbishment          of a electrohydrolic                mechanism.            They 23 discovered        the    Buna      N  material        with    an    incorrect 24 material.            This    incompatible              with    the      emergency 25 hydraulic fluid.            And they say elevated temperatures NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433              WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                www.nealrgross.com
11 1 damaged          the o-rings,        that no Buna N was            installed.
2  They said Buna N incompatible with the system.                                  The 3  root cause,          I  mean there's a question whether it                        is 4  incompatible with the fluid or is                      it  too sensitive to 5  temperature.            Browns Ferry at Unit              1, another        LER, 6  2009-004,          I can make a comment that there's questions 7 of the,        if  everything is        reported in        LERs,  but these 8  are    just 3-0,        a bunch of LERs.              Interesting      Buna N 9 material          defect was      without    fibers.        It  was in        the 10  HIPSI        oil      control.        That    was      also    due  to    heat.
11  There's a gallo way,                another LER gallo way LER 2008-12  05. It    is  a main steam pump on low lube oil pressure.
13  Parts of a Buna N o-ring separated from the strainer 14  and got stuck in the oil pressure regulator, made from 15  ethylene propylene diene Monomer,                      EPDM,  replaced with 16  Buna N.          So you've got,      you know,        one of them saying, 17  one plant saying Buna N is                    the bad guy and the next 18  plant      saying this EPDM is            the bad guy,        basically the 19  same fluid with the replacement                        of Buna N.      It    just 20  seems like there's a lot of contusion here.
21                        We know back in        2003,    it  really goes back 22  to 1987 or what have you.                    That is      a pretty big event 23  with this scram pilot valves.                    Reduce      service      of the 24  solenoid,            valves    with    the    Buna      N,  this    diaphragm 25  material.            When exposed to heat and air,                  the Buna N NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433                WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701          www.nealrgross.com
12 1 material        became        hard,      flexible.          As    the    diagram 2 hardens it        becomes less flexible and therefore doesn't 3 come off        the    seat      and thereby        releases      the rate          of 4 which the air          and vent off cram actuator.                      So I mean 5 materials engineer or a professional                          to me it      sounds 6 like        would    have      this    diaphragm        gasket      or    o-ring 7 material.          It  seems to me they would have an idea of 8 the quality          standards        of this Buna N and I                find      it 9 kind of amazing that essentially a brand new actuator 10  goes      into the plant            and fails      after one        cycle.        We 11  know        that  and      the    LER    talks      about    it    with      heat 12  related,        with      a    solenoid      and    those    are    extremely 13  important        valves,          safety    valves        that    are    at    the 14  nuclear        power    plant.          I  just    can't      understand          why 15  those        materials,        you know,        this modern day and age 16  with all        you engineers            and that      type of      stuff,      why 17  you,      you know,      that the Buna N would have a gray type 18  of    thing,      whatever,          however      you    guys    term    it    and 19  stuff.        You would have an environmental condition and 20  stuff that would,              plus the accident            conditions.            And 21  you would know exactly what you got.                          You would custom 22  along          the      manufacturing            process          and      before 23  installation          into the actuators.                We are playing with 24  very        extremely          important        equipment.              I    don't 25  understand.            It's      not  that    hard    to  make    sure      that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 1 those materials                have the quality stated to get your 2 money's worth.                It    is  amazing.      And then according to 3 the      LER it        says      they replaced          it    back  with Buna N 4  material.          It  really doesn't give you any indication, 5 if    it's      a    different          grade    or    is    the  same    stuff.
6 There's no idea they are going to go into a new cycle, 7 if    they are going to go for another                            cycle.      And      it 8 just        seems      like        insane      that      anybody      would      ever 9 consider putting the same stuff back in                            and having it 10  fair      on one cycle and then putting it                        in  again.            I 11  mean I know it            is    not the same stuff, but nonetheless, 12  it    is    just astonishing,              lack of safety there,              safety 13  considerations.                We know that from Yankee that cycle, 14  it    was a normal cycle.                  What would happen if            we had, 15  if    we were in        an accident and if            it    was under elevated 16  temperatures            for      a    number    of  hours      and    stuff      like 17  that.        How would it            behave,    you know that the material 18  give you a surprise once,                      what about all        of the rest 19  of the        surprises that happened in                    that accident          and 20  that type of stuff?                    And then its        new and the people 21  that make this stuff made the actuator Target Rock and 22  Curtiss Wright,              these are professional people and they 23  are      well      known,        they    are    well      know  companies        and 24  stuff.          They know what              is  at  stake here.          I    don't 25  understand how they could have ever let                            those kind of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 materials into a safety relief                    valve.        I haven't,            it 2  is  interesting that it            was manufactured in 2002 and it 3 was installed in            2008.        I don't    see any other LERs 4 associated.          Why didn't          the  other plants            catch        it?
5 Why aren't the other plants seeing it?                          It    seems to be 6 a length of time that other plants should have popped 7 up the same kind of problems.                    They are going to make 8 a Part 21 report,            Curtiss Wright.          I'm just surprised, 9 that's        another question.            Why didn't,        why haven't we 10  seen that stuff before,                in    other LERs?
11                      Again,      you      know,    there        is    not        the 12  confidence that these utilities                    are reporting all                the 13  stuff in        LERs,  all    the stuff that's          required reported 14  and      also    the  stuff    that      shouldn't      be    reported          and 15  there's        not  a lot of        confidence      that      these      private 16  reporting        to NEI,      they are      all  voluntary.            If    they 17  don't report,          whose going to,            are they going to get 18  punished and stuff              like that.          So,      as    far as these 19  reporting means,          there's, the public has no confidence 20  that        they    are    being      served      by      these      reporting 21  mechanisms that things are being forced to be reported 22  on.        If  they  are not        being    reported        on,    there's          a 23  consequence          and    if    its      reported      on    and    then        the 24  utility          messed      with      it,      then      there's        another 25  consequence        and stuff like that.                So there's issues NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 with      how    these    things    get    reported        and  all    these 2  different mechanisms of industry reporting of events 3  and stuff like that.                What is    transparent and what is 4  the secret hidden system again?                          And we should have 5 one      system and that should be open to everybody and 6 the utilities            should be first        to report either a Part 7  21      type      of    deal    or  something          else.      Everybody 8  shouldn't get            confused with three or four different 9 kind of reporting mechanisms and stuff.                            That's what 10  I    think.        I  think that nitrogen              pressure    opens      the 11  valve,        the pilot valve and its            an automatic valve and 12  it    opens on if        the pressure is        too high.        And there's 13  also      a nitrogen        path    that    goes      into  the  valve      and 14  opens up the valve when the operators                            switch.        I'm 15  surprised there is              only analog.          It  is  four strokes or 16  something like that.                  Why can't you have            100 cycles?
17  Why are we limited to four strokes?                          Everybody knows 18  that the sanitized                the action where you only two or 19  three operations              to the valve.          A more realistic            one 20  would be that a while before the plant shutdown and it 21  might        take    a  whole    bunch    of  cycles      of  the    relief 22  valves        as  the    plant    cooled down,          some  of  the    more 23  severe accidents              and stuff like that.                So you know, 24  I've talked about the issues with the reactor building 25  cracks.          Who knows what          would happen?            Like    I said NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 1 part      of    the  concrete          falls      off.      You    know        the 2  cryogenic tank right next to the building?                            How long 3  is  that going to last?              Why wouldn't that get knocked 4  over?        And those nitrogen bottles on the south side of 5  the    building,      make      up emergency        bottles?        The      same 6  thing.          The building          might,    part    might  fall    off      or 7  something some of these accidents and it                        knocked that 8  over.          And  then we        talked    all  about    blackouts          and 9  stuff.        You would think that the system would be more 10  durable than it          is.      I know its      normally operated,            its 11  an electric valve that opens up solenoids so I know, 12  the batteries,          the four hour or eight hour batteries 13  and stuff like that.                  I know that's      one way.          It    is 14  interesting.          Why couldn't            you have      these    released 15  outside the containment?                    What's the big deal with a 16  couple more        holes      in    the containment?          I    mean,      not 17  really holes but penetrations through the containment.
18  You would have valves outside and you could,                            then it 19  would be a lot easier to hook up air                      bottles or manual 20  operation or a whole bunch of stuff                        if  you had them 21  out sitting        on a wall somewhere.                You know you could 22  make that case.            You would want to minimize radiation 23  levels outside but I think that's                      a lesser deal than 24  to be able to have a whole bunch of ways to operate 25  that valve,        a whole bunch of choices of operating that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 valve        if  those    valves were        instead of being            in    the 2 containment          were    on the outside            of    the  wall.          You 3 could have bottles right next to it.                          You could have 4 bottles outside that you put it                    right up to where the 5  station        was.      Like    I  said    you    could    have    manual 6 operations and then you would have an assortment                                  of 7 different choices besides those valves being stuck in 8 that containment and unavailable in                        an accident.
9                      The Buna N material is              advertised as good 10  for oil,        solvent and hydraulic fluid and it                  is  good up 11  to pretty high temperatures.                    I read something like 12  260 degrees.          So you know Im curious on why it                  didn't 13  meet their advertisement environment.                        Why isn't    there 14  any better material for seals, o-rings and diaphragms?
15  Now this        Buna N stuff        that    seems      to  have  a  lot of 16  issues with it.            You know,      why isn't        there some high 17  tech      material      that,    you    know,      instead      of    having      a 18  whole      bunch    of  different      standards        and  stuff      like 19  that.          You have one      type of material            that can meet 20  qualities and environments,                you know and you wouldn't 21  have to fool around with so many different standards.
22  It    doesn't seem like a big expense actually.                          I don't 23  know why is        there no --      I don't see any grades of Buno 24  and stuff,        NBC type of thing.              That's another thing 25  that concerns me.            You know the right way this should NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 1 have      been      held  is    the  place      where      you  honor        the 2 community and you honor me.                  But as with the utility 3 would have had some sort of meeting outside in                            one of 4 our hotels or in          a room type of thing.                We would talk 5 across        the  table with this,        what the        LER meant        and 6 stuff.          We would ask the NRC to be in                there and then 7 be a free and open discussion of what was going on.
8 That would be the honorable way to take care of this 9 issue.          Why do we have to go into this 2.206 process?
10  With the paralegal            it's    a almost legal type of thing 11  where        there's    a  high    hurdle    for      me  because      it      is 12  legal.          If  there's a legal hurdle I have to cross. But 13  then        I'm    not  covered      with    any        legal.      Like        a 14  prosecutor,          he has the subpoena power,                you know.            A 15  real      legal system is          that you both have essentially 16  the      same      standards      and  same    transparency        and      same 17  requirements and all              that sort of stuff.            So you know, 18  there's no,          the legal      system isn't          on my side where 19  I'm able to get required transparency and actually why 20  the community isn't            getting any transparency.              We talk 21  about these things.              And you know,        if  we talked about 22  them it          would probably make everybody behave better 23  and we would have a better industry instead of this, 24  I think this secrecy,                massive system of secrecy and 25  stuff      like    that.      I  think people          get  behind      these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 1 barriers        and they do things              they know they can get 2  away with.            It    makes    the whole        thing unstable,            and 3  excessively          expensive.          If  everybody knew that they 4  were going to get caught                    with what they were doing, 5  everybody would actually do what's good for us all                                and 6  we'd have a more stable industry and would probably 7  have      less events.              People would        say you know these 8  nuclear guys,            boy they sure are honest.              They are not 9  regular people.              They are into details and they will 10  talk about          their      sins until      they are      blue.      I    mean 11  they are really odd,                these nuclear folks, the way they 12  talk on and on about their sins and they are decent 13  guys and stuff like that.                    Why can't we have that kind 14  of    an      image,      instead      of    everybody        hiding    behind 15  barriers?          You know,          I  think      I  have  an issue        with 16  that.
17                      I think we would live in                a better world if 18  we had,        we all      had less barriers and everybody could 19  see what everybody else was doing.                          And thank you very 20  much for this opportunity and I'm done.
21                      MR. KIM:        Okay,    thank you Mr.      Mulligan 22  for your comments and taking the time to discuss this 23  with us.          At this time I am going to ask if                    staff at 24  headquarters            have      any    questions        for  Mr. Mulligan?
25  They don't have any questions for you at headquarters.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1  How about the region?                Tom?
2                    MR. SETZER:        Thanks Mike.          No questions 3  from the region.
4                    MR. KIM:        The    licensee,        I  guess,      Jeff 5 Meyer,        have any questions?
6                    MR. MEYER: No questions from licensee.
7                    MR. KIM:      I am sorry.        I forget Muhammad.
8 Muhammad,        do you have any questions?
9                    MR. RAZZAQUE:          No,    I don't.
10                      MR. KIM:        All right thank you.              Did any 11  members        of  public      join    the    call    while      we      were 12  discussing?          There's no words from the public so there 13  will be no questions              from them.
14                      Well    Mr. Mulligan,      thank    you again          for 15  taking the time of talking to us and for clarifying 16  information on your petition which you submitted.
17                      MR. MULLIGAN:          Thank you.
18                      MR. KIM:        We all    took notes and we will 19  again      review    the    transcript        before      we  go  into      our 20  decision making process and we will take your remarks 21  into consideration.              Before we close,          does the court 22  reporter        need    any    additional        information        for      the 23  meeting transcript?
24                      COURT REPORTER:          I do not.
25                    MR. KIM:        Okay,    with that,        this meeting NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 1 is    concluded  and we will        be  terminating  the      phone 2 connection.      Thank you.
3                  (Whereupon the above-entitled conference 4 call was concluded at 2:33 p.m.)
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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CERTIFICATE This is    to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in    the matter of:                  Vermont Yankee Name of Proceeding:          10 CFR 2.206 Petition of Michael Mulligan Docket Number:                (n/a)
Location:                    (teleconference) were      held as    herein appears,          and that    this  is    the original transcript thereof for the file                  of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript        is    a  true    and    accurate    record    of    the foregoing proceedings.
Neal R.      Gross & Co.,    Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433            WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701      www.nealrgross.com}}

Latest revision as of 09:31, 6 December 2019

Transcript of 10 CFR 2.206 Petition Re Vermont Yankee Conference Call, April 13, 2011, Pages 1-21
ML11110A019
Person / Time
Site: Vermont Yankee File:NorthStar Vermont Yankee icon.png
Issue date: 04/13/2011
From:
NRC/OCM
To:
References
NRC-840
Download: ML11110A019 (23)
v • d • e


Text

Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

Title:

10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Vermont Yankee Docket Number: (n/a)

Location: (telephone conference)

Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 Work Order No.: NRC-840 Pages 1-21 IORIGINAL NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 .++++

4 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB) 5 RE 6 VERMONT YANKEE PETITION 7 +++++

8 WEDNESDAY 9 APRIL 13, 2011 10 . . . . .

11 The conference call was held at 2:00 p.m.,

12 Michael Cheok, Chairperson of the Petition Review 13 Board, presiding.

14 15 PETITIONER: MICHAEL MULLIGAN 16 17 PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS 18 MICHAEL CHEOK, Division Director, Division of 19 Risk Assessment, NRR 20 JAMES KIM, Petition Manager for 2.206 21 Petition, NRR/Division of Operating 22 Reactor Licensing 23 MERRILEE BANIC, Petition Manager 24 MUHAMMAD RAZZAQUE, Reactor Systems Branch, NRR 25 THOMAS SETZER, Division of Reactor Projects NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

2 NRC HEADQUARTERS STAFF:

2 NANCY SALGADO, Branch Chief, NRR/Division of 3 Operating Reactor Licensing 4

5 ALSO PRESENT:

6 JEFF MEYER, Vermont Yankee 7

8 9

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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3 1 P R O C E E D I NG S 2 2:00 p.m.

3 MR. KIM: Good afternoon. I want to thank 4 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is 5 James Kim and I'm a project manager. We are here 6 today to allow the petitioner, Mr. Michael Mulligan to 7 address the Petition Review Board regarding 2.206 8 petition dated March 17, 2011. I am the petition 9 manager for the petitioner. The Petition Review Board 10 Michael Cheok. As part of the Petition Review Board 11 review of this petition, Mr. Michael Mulligan has 12 requested the opportunity to address the PRB.

13 This meeting is scheduled from 2:00 to 14 3:00 p.m. The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 15 operation center, and will be transcribed by a court 16 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 17 the petition. The transcript will also be made.

18 I would like to open this meeting with 19 introductions. Everybody in the room please be sure 20 to clearly speak your name, your position and office 21 that you work for within the NRC for the record. This 22 is James Kim. I am a project for the Division of 23 Operating Reactor Licensing in NRR.

24 MS. SALGADO: This is Nancy Salgado. I am 25 branch chief in the Division of Operating Reactor NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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4 1 Licensing NRR.

2 MR. CHEOK: I'm Mike Check, the Division 3 Director for the Division of Risk Assessment in NRR.

4 MS. BANIC: Merrillee Banic, Petition 5 Coordinator, NRR.

6 MR. RAZZAQUE: Muhammad Razzaque, with the 7 Reactor Systems Branch, NRR.

8 MR. KIM: Are there any petitioners from 9 the region office on the phone?

10 MR. SETZER: Hi. This is Thomas Setzer.

11 I am a Senior Project Engineer in Region I.

12 OPERATOR: This is the headquarters ops 13 officer. I can do a roster playback if you would 14 like. It looks like you are already going ahead with 15 the identifications.

16 MR. KIM: That's fine.

17 OPERATOR: Would you like a roster 18 playback or not?

19 MR. KIM: No.

20 OPERATOR: Okay, thank you.

21 MR. KIM: Okay, thanks. Okay, are there 22 any representations for the licensing on the phone?

23 MR. MEYER: Yes. Jeff Meyer, VY, on the 24 home.

25 MR. KIM: Mr. Mulligan, would you please NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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5 1 introduce yourself for the record?

2 MR. MULLIGAN: I am Mike Mulligan. I 3 once held a license at Vermont Yankee and I'm a 4 whistle blower.

5 MR. KIM: Thank you. It is not required 6 for members of the public to introduce themselves for 7 this call. However, if there any members of the 8 public on the phone that wish to do that at this time, 9 please state your name for the record? There is none.

10 I would like to emphasize that we each need to speak 11 clearly and loudly to make sure that the court 12 reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting. If 13 you have something you would like to say, please first 14 speak your name for the record. For those that are 15 here for the meeting, please remember to mute your 16 phone to minimize any background noise or 17 distractions. If you do not have a mute button, this 18 can be done by pressing keys *6 to mute, then press 19 the *6 keys again. Thank you.

20 At this time I turn it over to Chairman, 21 Michael Cheok.

22 MR. CHEOK: Good afternoon. Welcome to 23 this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by 24 Mr. Mulligan.

25 First, I would like to share some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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6 1 background on our process. Section 2.206 of Title 10 2 of the Code of Federal Regulations describes the 3 petition process. The primary mechanism for the 4 public to request enforcement action by the NRC in a 5 public process. This process permits anyone to 6 petition the NRC to take enforcement action related to 7 NRC licensees or license activities. Depending on the 8 results of this evaluation, NRC will modify, suspend 9 or reward the license or take any other appropriate 10 enforcement action to resolve the problem. This path, 11 guidance and disposition of the 2.206 petition 12 requests is in management directive 8.11 which is 13 publically available.

14 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 15 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 16 additional explanations for support for the petition 17 before the Petition Review Board's initial 18 consideration and recommendation. This meeting is not 19 a hearing nor is it an opportunity for the petitioner 20 to question or examine the PRB on demerits or the 21 issues presented in the petition request. No 22 decisions regarding the merits for this petition will 23 be made at this meeting.

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7 1 of this internal meeting will be discussed with the 2 petitioner. The Petition Review Board typically 3 consists of the chairman, who is usually a manager at 4 the Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has 5 the petition manager and the PRB coordinator. Other 6 members of the board determined by the NRC staff based 7 on the content of 'the information in the petition 8 request.

9 At this time I would introduce the board.

10 I am Michael Cheok, the Petition Review Board 11 chairman. James Kim is the petition manager for the 12 petition under discussion today. Merrilee Banic is 13 the petition coordinator. Our technical staff 14 includes Muhammad Razzaque from the Office of Reactor 15 Regulations, Reactor Systems Branch and Thomas Setzer 16 from NRC Region I's Division of Reactor Projects.

17 As part of our process NRC staff may ask 18 clarifying questions in order to better understand the 19 petitioner's presentation and the decision to accept 20 or reject the petitioner's request for review under 21 the 2.206 process.

22 Next I would like to summarize the scope 23 of the petition under consideration and the NRC 24 activities to date. On March 17, 2011 Mr. Mulligan 25 submitted to the NRC a petition under 2.206 selling NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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8 1 the use of Buna N material instead of the originally 2 used silicon of main steam relief valves. In his 3 petition request, Mr. Mulligan, (1) requested Vermont 4 Yankee Nuclear Power Plant and all Entergy Nuclear 5 Power Plants to be immediately shut down. (2) 6 requested the licensee to replace the relief valve 7 Buna N material with silicon. (3) requested an 8 investigation of the one for one safety related 9 replacement parts program before startup throughout 10 Entergy and to consider the ongoing Entergy QAQC 11 investigation. (4) requested an outside NRC 12 investigation of the NRC behavior for tolerating this 13 atrocious regulatory behavior. (5) requested Vermont 14 Yankee management provide and replace before startup.

15 (6) requested Entergy's senior staff be fired and 16 replaced before the restart of the plants. (7) 17 request a formation of the local public oversight 18 panel around every plant. (8) requested an emergency 19 NRC senior official oversight panel of reforming the 20 reactor oversight process of the ROP. (9) requested 21 the national NRC oversight penal of outsiders to 22 oversee and report on the agency's activities. These 23 should be a mixture of professional people and capable 24 lay people. And (10) Mr. Mulligan stated that there 25 are some heavy duty and expediently numerous findings NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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9 1 of problems at Entergy plants during this inspection 2 and reporting cycle. And he asked NRC to do an 3 analysis as to why this is occurring.

4 Next allow me to discuss NRC activities to 5 date. On March 23, 2011, Mr. Mulligan requested an 6 opportunity to address the PRB by telephone, which is 7 the purpose of today's call. On March 29, 2011, the 8 PRB met internally to discuss the request for 9 immediate action of the shutdown of Vermont Yankee.

10 The PRB denied the request for immediate action 11 because there was no immediate safety concerns to the 12 plant or to the health and safety of the public. On 13 March 30, 2011, Mr. Mulligan was informed of the PRB's 14 decision on the immediate action.

15 As a reminder for the phone participants, 16 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 17 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 18 transcript that will be made publically available.

19 Thank you.

20 Mr. Mulligan, I will turn this over to 21 you. I will allow you to provide any information you 22 believe the PRB should consider as part of this 23 petition.

24 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you. Just a few 25 sentences on this. Remember yesterday, I talked about NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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10 1 corrupting language. We start the corrupt language or 2 speak inaccurately and it kind of snowballs and we end 3 up in our most of our institutional accidents.

4 Yesterday an NRC official talked about is there any 5 deaths in the nuclear industry. And he answered no.

6 And the correct answer is yes, there has been deaths 7 at nuclear power plants. There has been four of them 8 and the biggest one has been at Surry and that is 9 interesting that those employees that die were 10 pipefitters. You know they are kind of considered the 11 bottom of the barrel. It seems like we don't care 12 about people who are at the bottom of the barrel. And 13 we know that incident had unbelievable ramifications 14 in 1986 or 1987. It helped us with erosion and 15 corrosion of an assortment of piping in the plant.

16 And so I think those were nuclear related fatalities.

17 And Mr. Jaczko should have, considering his academic 18 background, he should have been able to answer that 19 question fully.

20 Anyways, back to Vermont Yankee, in Ginna, 21 G-I-N-N-A there's an LER, LER 2009-00. It is a 22 refurbishment of a electrohydrolic mechanism. They 23 discovered the Buna N material with an incorrect 24 material. This incompatible with the emergency 25 hydraulic fluid. And they say elevated temperatures NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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11 1 damaged the o-rings, that no Buna N was installed.

2 They said Buna N incompatible with the system. The 3 root cause, I mean there's a question whether it is 4 incompatible with the fluid or is it too sensitive to 5 temperature. Browns Ferry at Unit 1, another LER, 6 2009-004, I can make a comment that there's questions 7 of the, if everything is reported in LERs, but these 8 are just 3-0, a bunch of LERs. Interesting Buna N 9 material defect was without fibers. It was in the 10 HIPSI oil control. That was also due to heat.

11 There's a gallo way, another LER gallo way LER 2008-12 05. It is a main steam pump on low lube oil pressure.

13 Parts of a Buna N o-ring separated from the strainer 14 and got stuck in the oil pressure regulator, made from 15 ethylene propylene diene Monomer, EPDM, replaced with 16 Buna N. So you've got, you know, one of them saying, 17 one plant saying Buna N is the bad guy and the next 18 plant saying this EPDM is the bad guy, basically the 19 same fluid with the replacement of Buna N. It just 20 seems like there's a lot of contusion here.

21 We know back in 2003, it really goes back 22 to 1987 or what have you. That is a pretty big event 23 with this scram pilot valves. Reduce service of the 24 solenoid, valves with the Buna N, this diaphragm 25 material. When exposed to heat and air, the Buna N NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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12 1 material became hard, flexible. As the diagram 2 hardens it becomes less flexible and therefore doesn't 3 come off the seat and thereby releases the rate of 4 which the air and vent off cram actuator. So I mean 5 materials engineer or a professional to me it sounds 6 like would have this diaphragm gasket or o-ring 7 material. It seems to me they would have an idea of 8 the quality standards of this Buna N and I find it 9 kind of amazing that essentially a brand new actuator 10 goes into the plant and fails after one cycle. We 11 know that and the LER talks about it with heat 12 related, with a solenoid and those are extremely 13 important valves, safety valves that are at the 14 nuclear power plant. I just can't understand why 15 those materials, you know, this modern day and age 16 with all you engineers and that type of stuff, why 17 you, you know, that the Buna N would have a gray type 18 of thing, whatever, however you guys term it and 19 stuff. You would have an environmental condition and 20 stuff that would, plus the accident conditions. And 21 you would know exactly what you got. You would custom 22 along the manufacturing process and before 23 installation into the actuators. We are playing with 24 very extremely important equipment. I don't 25 understand. It's not that hard to make sure that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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13 1 those materials have the quality stated to get your 2 money's worth. It is amazing. And then according to 3 the LER it says they replaced it back with Buna N 4 material. It really doesn't give you any indication, 5 if it's a different grade or is the same stuff.

6 There's no idea they are going to go into a new cycle, 7 if they are going to go for another cycle. And it 8 just seems like insane that anybody would ever 9 consider putting the same stuff back in and having it 10 fair on one cycle and then putting it in again. I 11 mean I know it is not the same stuff, but nonetheless, 12 it is just astonishing, lack of safety there, safety 13 considerations. We know that from Yankee that cycle, 14 it was a normal cycle. What would happen if we had, 15 if we were in an accident and if it was under elevated 16 temperatures for a number of hours and stuff like 17 that. How would it behave, you know that the material 18 give you a surprise once, what about all of the rest 19 of the surprises that happened in that accident and 20 that type of stuff? And then its new and the people 21 that make this stuff made the actuator Target Rock and 22 Curtiss Wright, these are professional people and they 23 are well known, they are well know companies and 24 stuff. They know what is at stake here. I don't 25 understand how they could have ever let those kind of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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14 1 materials into a safety relief valve. I haven't, it 2 is interesting that it was manufactured in 2002 and it 3 was installed in 2008. I don't see any other LERs 4 associated. Why didn't the other plants catch it?

5 Why aren't the other plants seeing it? It seems to be 6 a length of time that other plants should have popped 7 up the same kind of problems. They are going to make 8 a Part 21 report, Curtiss Wright. I'm just surprised, 9 that's another question. Why didn't, why haven't we 10 seen that stuff before, in other LERs?

11 Again, you know, there is not the 12 confidence that these utilities are reporting all the 13 stuff in LERs, all the stuff that's required reported 14 and also the stuff that shouldn't be reported and 15 there's not a lot of confidence that these private 16 reporting to NEI, they are all voluntary. If they 17 don't report, whose going to, are they going to get 18 punished and stuff like that. So, as far as these 19 reporting means, there's, the public has no confidence 20 that they are being served by these reporting 21 mechanisms that things are being forced to be reported 22 on. If they are not being reported on, there's a 23 consequence and if its reported on and then the 24 utility messed with it, then there's another 25 consequence and stuff like that. So there's issues NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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15 1 with how these things get reported and all these 2 different mechanisms of industry reporting of events 3 and stuff like that. What is transparent and what is 4 the secret hidden system again? And we should have 5 one system and that should be open to everybody and 6 the utilities should be first to report either a Part 7 21 type of deal or something else. Everybody 8 shouldn't get confused with three or four different 9 kind of reporting mechanisms and stuff. That's what 10 I think. I think that nitrogen pressure opens the 11 valve, the pilot valve and its an automatic valve and 12 it opens on if the pressure is too high. And there's 13 also a nitrogen path that goes into the valve and 14 opens up the valve when the operators switch. I'm 15 surprised there is only analog. It is four strokes or 16 something like that. Why can't you have 100 cycles?

17 Why are we limited to four strokes? Everybody knows 18 that the sanitized the action where you only two or 19 three operations to the valve. A more realistic one 20 would be that a while before the plant shutdown and it 21 might take a whole bunch of cycles of the relief 22 valves as the plant cooled down, some of the more 23 severe accidents and stuff like that. So you know, 24 I've talked about the issues with the reactor building 25 cracks. Who knows what would happen? Like I said NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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16 1 part of the concrete falls off. You know the 2 cryogenic tank right next to the building? How long 3 is that going to last? Why wouldn't that get knocked 4 over? And those nitrogen bottles on the south side of 5 the building, make up emergency bottles? The same 6 thing. The building might, part might fall off or 7 something some of these accidents and it knocked that 8 over. And then we talked all about blackouts and 9 stuff. You would think that the system would be more 10 durable than it is. I know its normally operated, its 11 an electric valve that opens up solenoids so I know, 12 the batteries, the four hour or eight hour batteries 13 and stuff like that. I know that's one way. It is 14 interesting. Why couldn't you have these released 15 outside the containment? What's the big deal with a 16 couple more holes in the containment? I mean, not 17 really holes but penetrations through the containment.

18 You would have valves outside and you could, then it 19 would be a lot easier to hook up air bottles or manual 20 operation or a whole bunch of stuff if you had them 21 out sitting on a wall somewhere. You know you could 22 make that case. You would want to minimize radiation 23 levels outside but I think that's a lesser deal than 24 to be able to have a whole bunch of ways to operate 25 that valve, a whole bunch of choices of operating that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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17 1 valve if those valves were instead of being in the 2 containment were on the outside of the wall. You 3 could have bottles right next to it. You could have 4 bottles outside that you put it right up to where the 5 station was. Like I said you could have manual 6 operations and then you would have an assortment of 7 different choices besides those valves being stuck in 8 that containment and unavailable in an accident.

9 The Buna N material is advertised as good 10 for oil, solvent and hydraulic fluid and it is good up 11 to pretty high temperatures. I read something like 12 260 degrees. So you know Im curious on why it didn't 13 meet their advertisement environment. Why isn't there 14 any better material for seals, o-rings and diaphragms?

15 Now this Buna N stuff that seems to have a lot of 16 issues with it. You know, why isn't there some high 17 tech material that, you know, instead of having a 18 whole bunch of different standards and stuff like 19 that. You have one type of material that can meet 20 qualities and environments, you know and you wouldn't 21 have to fool around with so many different standards.

22 It doesn't seem like a big expense actually. I don't 23 know why is there no -- I don't see any grades of Buno 24 and stuff, NBC type of thing. That's another thing 25 that concerns me. You know the right way this should NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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18 1 have been held is the place where you honor the 2 community and you honor me. But as with the utility 3 would have had some sort of meeting outside in one of 4 our hotels or in a room type of thing. We would talk 5 across the table with this, what the LER meant and 6 stuff. We would ask the NRC to be in there and then 7 be a free and open discussion of what was going on.

8 That would be the honorable way to take care of this 9 issue. Why do we have to go into this 2.206 process?

10 With the paralegal it's a almost legal type of thing 11 where there's a high hurdle for me because it is 12 legal. If there's a legal hurdle I have to cross. But 13 then I'm not covered with any legal. Like a 14 prosecutor, he has the subpoena power, you know. A 15 real legal system is that you both have essentially 16 the same standards and same transparency and same 17 requirements and all that sort of stuff. So you know, 18 there's no, the legal system isn't on my side where 19 I'm able to get required transparency and actually why 20 the community isn't getting any transparency. We talk 21 about these things. And you know, if we talked about 22 them it would probably make everybody behave better 23 and we would have a better industry instead of this, 24 I think this secrecy, massive system of secrecy and 25 stuff like that. I think people get behind these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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19 1 barriers and they do things they know they can get 2 away with. It makes the whole thing unstable, and 3 excessively expensive. If everybody knew that they 4 were going to get caught with what they were doing, 5 everybody would actually do what's good for us all and 6 we'd have a more stable industry and would probably 7 have less events. People would say you know these 8 nuclear guys, boy they sure are honest. They are not 9 regular people. They are into details and they will 10 talk about their sins until they are blue. I mean 11 they are really odd, these nuclear folks, the way they 12 talk on and on about their sins and they are decent 13 guys and stuff like that. Why can't we have that kind 14 of an image, instead of everybody hiding behind 15 barriers? You know, I think I have an issue with 16 that.

17 I think we would live in a better world if 18 we had, we all had less barriers and everybody could 19 see what everybody else was doing. And thank you very 20 much for this opportunity and I'm done.

21 MR. KIM: Okay, thank you Mr. Mulligan 22 for your comments and taking the time to discuss this 23 with us. At this time I am going to ask if staff at 24 headquarters have any questions for Mr. Mulligan?

25 They don't have any questions for you at headquarters.

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20 1 How about the region? Tom?

2 MR. SETZER: Thanks Mike. No questions 3 from the region.

4 MR. KIM: The licensee, I guess, Jeff 5 Meyer, have any questions?

6 MR. MEYER: No questions from licensee.

7 MR. KIM: I am sorry. I forget Muhammad.

8 Muhammad, do you have any questions?

9 MR. RAZZAQUE: No, I don't.

10 MR. KIM: All right thank you. Did any 11 members of public join the call while we were 12 discussing? There's no words from the public so there 13 will be no questions from them.

14 Well Mr. Mulligan, thank you again for 15 taking the time of talking to us and for clarifying 16 information on your petition which you submitted.

17 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you.

18 MR. KIM: We all took notes and we will 19 again review the transcript before we go into our 20 decision making process and we will take your remarks 21 into consideration. Before we close, does the court 22 reporter need any additional information for the 23 meeting transcript?

24 COURT REPORTER: I do not.

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21 1 is concluded and we will be terminating the phone 2 connection. Thank you.

3 (Whereupon the above-entitled conference 4 call was concluded at 2:33 p.m.)

5 6

7 8

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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of: Vermont Yankee Name of Proceeding: 10 CFR 2.206 Petition of Michael Mulligan Docket Number: (n/a)

Location: (teleconference) were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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