ML110400018
| ML110400018 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Vermont Yankee File:NorthStar Vermont Yankee icon.png |
| Issue date: | 02/03/2011 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 2.206, NRC-694, G20110050, OEDO-2011-0061 | |
| Download: ML110400018 (1) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION I,,
Title:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition Review Board RE Vermont Yankee Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: (telephone conference)
Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011 Work Order No.: NRC-694 Pages 1-30 LORIGINAL NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 6 -
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 +++++
4 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB) 5 CONFERENCE CALL 6 RE:
7 VERMONT YANKEE 8 +++++
9 THURSDAY 10 FEBRUARY 3, 2011 12 The conference call was held, Theodore 13 Quay, Chairperson of the Petition Review Board, 14 presiding.
15 PETITIONER: MICHAEL MULLIGAN 16 PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS
(
17 THEODORE QUAY, Chairman 18 JAMES KIM, Petition Manager for 2.206 19 petition 20 TANYA MENSAH, Petition Coordinator 21 ANDREA RUSSELL, NRR, Division of Policy and 22 Rulemaking 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 NRC HEADQUARTERS STAFF:
2 DAVID ALLEY, NRR, Division of Component 3 Integrity 4 MERRILEE BANIC, Office of Nuclear Reactor 5 Regulation, Generic 6 Communications Branch 7 NANCY SALGADO, NRR, Division of Operating 8 Reactor Licensing 9 THOMAS SETZER, Region I, Division of Reactor 10 Projects 11 12 ALSO PRESENT:
13 JEFF MEYER, Entergy Nuclear Vermont Yankee 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 A-G-E-N-D-A 2 Welcome and Introductions, Jim Kim, Petition 3 Manager.......................................... 4 4 PRB Chairman's Introduction, Ted Quay, PRB Chair 7 5 Petitioner's Presentation, Michael Mulligan . 12 6 PRB Chairman's Closing Remarks, Ted Quay . ... 29
,7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 8:59 a.m.
3 MR. KIM: Good morning. I would like to 4 thank everybody for attending this meeting. My name 5 is James Kim and I am the Vermont Yankee Project 6 Manager. We are here today to allow the petitioner, 7 Mr. Michael Mulligan, to address the Petition Review 8 Board regarding 2.206 petition dated January 18, 2011.
9 I'm the petition manager for the petition.
10 The Petition Review Board Chairman is Ted Quay. As 11 part of the Petition Review Board's review of this 12 petition, Mr. Michael Mulligan has requested this 13 opportunity to address the Petition Review Board.
14 This meeting is scheduled from 9:00 to 15 10:00 a.m. The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 16 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 17 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 18 the petition. The transcript will also be made 19 publicly available.
20 I would like to open this meeting with 21 introductions. As we go around the room please be 22 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 23 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 24 record. I'll start off.
25 This is James Kim. I'm a project manager NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1 for the Division of .Operating Reactor Licensing in 2 NRR.
3 MR. ALLEY: My name is David Alley. I'm 4 a Senior Materials Engineer. I work for the Division 5 of Component Integrity.
6 MS. BANIC: Lee Banic, Project Manager, 7 Generic Communications Branch.
8 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Ted Quay, Petition Review 9 Board Chairman. I work in the Division of Policy and 10 Rulemaking.
11 MS. RUSSELL: Andrea Russell, Project 12 Manager, Division of Policy and Rulemaking for Generic 13 Communications Branch.
14 MS. MENSAH: Tanya Mensah, Office 'of 15 Nuclear Reactor Regulation. I'm the 2.206 16 coordinator.
17 MS. SALGADO: Nancy Salgado, NRR, Division 18 of Operating Reactor Licensing, Branch Chief.
19 MR. KIM: At this time are.there any NRC 20 participants from the headquarters on the phone?
21 Are there any NRC participants from the 22 regional office on the phone?
23 MR. SETZER: There are five. This is 24 Thomas Setzer, the Senior Project Engineer for the 25 Division of Reactor Projects in Region I.
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6 1 MR. KIM: Are there any representatives 2 for the licensee on the phone?
3 MR. MEYER: Yes. This is Jeff Meyer at 4 the VY plant.
5 MR. KIM: Mr. Mulligan, would you please 6 introduce yourself for the record.
7 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan and I've 8 been involved a lot with Vermont Yankee. I used to 9 work at Vermont Yankee also. That's it.
10 MR. KIM: Okay. Thank you.
11 Are there any others such as members of 12 the public on the phone? Hearing none.
13 I would like to emphasize that we each 14 need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 15 court reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
16 If you have something you would like to say, please 17 first state your name for the record.
18 For those dialing into the meeting, please 19 remember to mute your phone to minimize ary background 20 noise or distractions. If you do not have a mute 21 button, it can be done by *6. For mute press the *6 22 key again. Thank you.
23 At this time I'll turn it over to Chairman 24 Ted Quay.
25 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Good morning. Welcome to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 1 this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition. submitted by 2 Mr. Mulligan.
3 I would like to first share some 4 background on our process. Section 2.206 of Title 10 5 of the Code of Federal Regulations describes the 6 petition process, the primary mechanism for the public 7 to request enforcement action by the NRC in a public 8 process.
9 This permits anyone to petition the NRC to 10 take enforcement type action related to NRC licensees 11 or licensed activities. Depending on the results of 12 its evaluation NRC could modify, suspend, or revoke an 13 NRC-issued license or take any other appropriate 14 enforcement action to resolve a problem.
15 The NRC staff's guidance for the disposition of 2.206 16 petition request is in Management Directive 8. 1.1 which 17 is publicly available.
18 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 19 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 20 additional explanation or support for the petition 21 before the Petition Review Board's initial 22 consideration and recommendation.
23 This is not a hearing, nor is it an 24 opportunity for the petitioner to question or examine 25 the Petition Review Board on the merits or the issues NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 1 presented in the petition request. No decision 2 regarding the merits of this petition will be made at 3 this meeting.
4, Following this meeting the Petition Review 5 Board will conduct its internal deliberations. The 6 outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 7 with the petitioner. The Petition Review Board 8 typically consist of a chairman, usually a manager at 9 the Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has 10 a Petition Manager and a Petition Review Board 11 Coordinator. Other members of the Board are 12 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 13 the information in the petition request.
14 At this time I would like to introduce the 15 Board. I am Ted Quay, the Petition Review Board 16 Chairman. James Kim is the petition manager for the 17 petition under discussion today. Tanya Mensah is the 18 office's Petition Review Board coordinator.
19 Our technical staff include David Alley 20 from the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulations Piping 21 and NDE Branch. Thomas Setzer from NRC Region I, 22 Division of Reactor Projects.
23 As described in our process the NRC staff 24 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 25 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 a recent decision whether to accept or reject the 2 petitioner's request for a review under the 2.206 3 process.
4 I would like to summarize the scope of the 5 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 6 date.
7 On January 18, 2011, Mr. Mulligan 8 submitted to the NRC a petition, under 2.206, 9 concerning the inspection activities associated with 10 the Advanced Off-Gas piping tritium leak and its Root 11 Cause Analysis of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power 12 Station.
13 In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan:
14 1. Requested that Vermont Yankee to be 15 immediately shutdown and that Entergy be 16 prohibited from owning nuclear power plants.
17 2. Requested an extent of conditions with 18 Entergy providing the NRC with inaccurate 19 information, false and incomplete documents and any 20 falsifications to the NRC.
21 Mr. Mulligan, on item 2 when I turn it 22 over to you, I would like you to explain that a little 23 bit because that request looks confusing to us.
24 3. Requested that the NRC look into if 25 Entergy gave new false testimony to any proceeding NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 with the state of Vermont.
2 4. Requested an OIG investigation 3 concerning recent falsified and incomplete NRC 4 inspections.
5 5. Requested an extent of conditions with 6 any falsified and incomplete licensing bases, 7 Updated Final Safety Analysis Report or any plant 8 engineering and plant designs that protect the public 9 and environment of the people surrounding Vermont 10 Yankee.
11 6. Requested a national formal NRC code and 12 regulations on RCA, which is the Root Cause Analysis, 13 and the quality of Root Cause Analysis.
14 7. Requested to have a discussion with the 15 top NRC official in charge, or the most knowledgeable, 16 on the Root Cause Analysis.
17 8. Stated that Entergy's corrective actions 18 program is keyed off the Root Cause Analysis or Root 19 Cause Evaluation, and asserts that Entergy's 20 corrective actions program is corrupted and that they 21 don't address why the tritium leak occurred.
22 9. Requested that, the NRC be prohibited 23 from ever using the term, "it is before the ROP 24 overhaul and it is of no concern of the NRC."
25 10. Stated that in case of OIG involvement, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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ii 1 it should be an open NRC OIG process; mostly the 2 investigation should be accurate, swift and open.
3 Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 4 date.
5 On January 21, you requested to address 6 the PRB to provide supplemental information for the 7 Board's consideration prior to PRB's internal meeting 8 to make an initial recommendation.
9 The PRB met on January 24, and denied your 10 request for immediate action of immediately shutdown 11 Vermont Yankee. The PRB determined that there was no 12 immediate safety concern to the plant or to the public 13 health and safety. The system is non-safety-related 14 and the tritium leak amounted to approximately less 15 than 1 mrem exposure to the public.
16 No drinking water sources were impacted.
17 Therefore, the PRB denied the request to immediately 18 shutdown Vermont Yankee. On January 25, you were 19 informed of the PRB's decisions on the immediate 20 action.
21 As a reminder for the phone participants, 22 please identify yourself if you make any remarks, as 23 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 24 transcript that will be made publicly available.
25 Thank you.
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12 1 At this point I would like to turn it over 2 to Mr. Mulligan.
3 MR. MULLIGAN: Hello. I've got to get 4 this on the record. When you first pushed the button 5 when I. came on the phone, I heard a snippet of 6 information and the snippet of information was, "Let's 7 have a little fun." What was that about?
8 CHAIRMAN QUAY: That was me. I was 9 welcoming a new Board member. She hasn't been here 10 before and I said, "This will be fun for you." The 11 reason I said that is it's a new experience. It's an 12 experience which all of us need to have is interacting 13 and learning how to interact with the public.
14 MR. MULLIGAN: Who is this?
15 CHAIRMAN QUAY: This is Ted Quay.
16 MR. MULLIGAN: Okay.
17 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay?
18 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Yes.
20 MR. MULLIGAN: I sent the 2.206 out on 21 January 18th. Within a few days Vermont Yankee 22 admitted to another leak. That led to, you know, a 23 whole bunch of media attention and then essentially, 24 you know, out of that whole business came an 25 acknowledgement that detectors in the past were out of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 1 service for a couple of weeks. There's a backlog of 2 samples to the state.
3 I mean, you know, I just want to make 4 clear just that motion, January 18th, a lot of things 5 that kind of were kind of amazing. Most of the people 6 think that I have inside information and I key off of 7 that type of thing trying to be obtuse but sending a 8 message anyway.
9 Here's some quotes from Governor Shuml in's 10 site Governor Shumlin citing the ongoing discovery of 11 tritium leaks at Vermont at the plant instructed 12 Vermont Department of Public Service to appoint a 13 Vermont Yankee Reliability Oversight Committee.
14 "1 am deeply concerned with Vermont 15 Yankee's lack of transparency about serious problems 16 that continue to be -- I can't even talk -- Vermont 17 Yankee's lack of transparency about serious problems 18 that continue to be discovered around the plant."
19 Shumlin continued, "I learned two weeks 20 ago about another well with a tritium hit, and this 21 one is not near the plume we already knew about, but 22 150 feet away. Then last Friday I was told that yet 23 another well had a tritium hit. Vermont Yankee had 24 the samples pulled that showed the new tritium hits 25 but didn't test those samples for a few weeks because NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 a piece of equipment was broken."
2 Governor Shumlin noted that no 3 investigation occurred during those weeks while 4 tritium levels rose. Plant official's participated in 5 hearings at the Public Service Board about the leaks 6 the Shumlin administration learned about in January of 7 last year, while the samples showing new tritium hits 8 were sitting untested, unknown to anyone at the state, 9 the Governor said.
10 In addition, the Governor has asked 11 Vermont Yankee officials to disclose an investigation 12 plan to ensure they are taking adequate steps to deal 13 with the escalating situation.
14 You know, most of you I imagine are 15 engineers here. I think you have an ethical 16 obligation not just to follow the rules. I mean, 17 rules are like a machine. It doesn't take a lot of 18 information to follow the rules. Following the rules 19 are for smart people because you've got to know why 20 the rules are there and then you've got to make 21 associations and you've got to use your intelligence.
22 You have to ask who am I really serving 23 type of thing. You just can't follow the rules. You 24 have to think about who you are serving. I think 25 engineers have an ethical obligation to serve the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 greater goods of our nation. They don't necessarily 2 have an obligation to serve coldly the rules of the 3 NRC.
4 They have an obligation to -- I mean, you 5 can't use rules to serve like the corporate interest.
6 I think you have an obligation to serve the public, to 7 give us information in a way that we can understand to 8 keep us updated on what's going on. We really are not 9 getting this from the NRC since this whole thing 10 began.
11 The RCA -- I mean, we really didn't get --
12 from the inspection report we really didn't get any 13 foundation. Information was was the AOG pipe was it 14 a -- you know, engineers we define how the systems are 15 in paperwork. We design these plants and then we make 16 sure they are in the diagrams and procedures and 17 licensing bases. We define it in words first and then 18 we build the plant.
19 That is the core of nuclear safety right 20 there is that we know what we're dealing with, all the 21 attributes are defined, the quality of the systems is 22 defined. It's in paperwork. It's cold. It's in 23 cement. You are supposed to be able to go back to 24 that kind of information throughout the life of the 25 plant and then it keys on, you know, what kind of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 1 upkeep do we have, what kind of maintenance, what kind 2 of inspections and all that sort of stuff.
3 Our great disappointment is that with the 4 NRC inspection activities seeing as how the Root Cause 5 Analysis was so important didn't define for us in the 6 inspection report how that AOG pipe was designed and 7 built. I think that is the foundational inspection 8 activity, especially when everybody in the state was 9 so engaged with Vermont Yankee.
10 That's a real disappointment to me and to 11 a lot of people in New Hampshire. Again, you are kind 12 of playing around )
with words and rules and stuff. You 13 are giving excuses. You're using government against 14 me. You're not using government for me. You're not 15 giving me that information that we all need and crave 16 to figure out what's going on with Vermont Yankee.
17 You're sitting there and you're using 18 safety related or you're using RIF has a tool against 19 us. You're not using it as a tool for us to help us 20 figure out what's going on. It's so contrary to 21 democracy that you people are comfortable following 22 rules.
23 Really, I mean, there's a lot of history 24 that shows that following rules isn't necessarily --
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17 1 your heart. Those things are probably more important 2 in operating a nuclear power plant than a lot of the 3 rules and stuff like that. Whose ends am I serving?
4 Whose ends am I serving by following this procedure?
5 Does the procedure make sense to me? Does 6 the inspection activities make sense to me? Who am I 7 serving? Usually you end up saying I'm serving the 8 people of the United States and I have a higher aim 9 than just following the silly rules of the NRC which, 10 you know, more and more safety related, risk related 11 activities and stuff like that.
12 They are all excuses to turn the lights 13 out. That's how they are. That's what they've 14 become. Excuses to turn the, lights off, have the NRC 15 not give information to the public, have them become 16 more distant to the people, for people living near the 17 plant, for the politicians in the area and stuff like 18 that.
19 Those are just excuses not to communicate 20 to us and to have a dialogue and to explain what 21 you're doing and not coming out with these silly 22 potantical rules that end up saying that nothing 23 matters and stuff. Again, I think rules and NRC rules 24 and Vermont Yankee rules and stuff like that, I mean, 25 those are not important.
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18 1 Everybody knows the safety limit. Those 2 are important but the heart of the machine is that 3 human beings with a heart and a conscience to kind of 4 sit back and say, "You know, I'm not a machine 5 following rules. I am a human being and this is a 6 very complicated activity and I serve the greater end 7 of the United States of America."
8 That is what this is all about and how do 9 I serve the greater ends of us all. I'll make the 10 case there could be an accident down the line here and 11 stuff like that and it would turn us against nuclear 12 power. It could drive us into a lot of troubles with 13 Entergy.
14 I mean, that's what we're facing here as 15 far as there's inaccurate language. We all know that.
16 Most institutional accidents usually revolves around 17 people using inaccurate words and phrases. Everybody 18 gets used to flipping these rules out and having an 19 interpretation of this rule this way.
20 The excuse is, "Well, we're going to hide 21 things from the public." Or, "You know, the rules say 22 we don't have to explain ourself. We're too arrogant 23 to explain ourselves and the rules say we don't have 24 to." It ends up with so many people distrustful of 25 the NRC.
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19 1 I think the precursor to all our 2 institutional accidents revolves around language. You 3 know, we start playing games with language and we 4 start doing this insider business with groups of 5 people. We start protecting each other's honor and 6 integrity and stuff like that. It ends up hiding 7 stuff from the people.
8 It ends up everybody is so cohesive, the 9 insiders are so cohesive and they are each protecting 10 each other's back. The next thing you know you end up 11 with so many things and so many problems with 12 integrity around Vermont Yankee. If you look at it 13 and say maybe it's Vermont. It's all the NI's or 14 whatever.
15 I don't think it is. I think, you know, 16 what's happened at Vermont Yankee is the natural 17 product of the way the NRC operates. This is not no 18 mistake. This is the way you guys -- this is the way 19 the system is designed to operate and the Vermont 20 Yankee situation is the purpose outcome of your 21 machine without a heart.
22 You wanted me to talk about No. 2. Well, 23 you know, how about those -- all those test results, 24 the tritium test results that Governor Shumlin talked 25 about. You know, I mean, is there a requirement that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1 -- is there -- you know, where is the NRC police as 2 far as they are supposed to be there helping us out 3 and egging Entergy to do the right thing and stuff.
4 Where was the NRC in there? You got two 5 guys in there. You should call a slew of other people 6 in there. Where was the NRC saying, "Okay, we've got 7 rules and regulations but we're serving the public."
8 If it comes out that samples were delayed or equipment 9 was broken, you know, the people want to know, want to 10 be kept up to date about that, would want to know 11 about that, would want to be able to respond to it.
12 Where was the NRC in that? There is -- I 13 mean, that was a falsification because right there is 14 it against the NRC's rules? Probably not. That's a 15 problem that the people can withhold test results for 16 whatever reason, especially about conditions with 17 Vermont Yankee with tritium. I'll give you three 18 others.
19 I can give you -- if somebody wants to 20 talk to me afterwards. Essentially there are 21 situations with LERs where the LER report -- the NRC 22 has to egg Entergy on until they discover something.
23 Then when the utility responds with an LER, they don't 24 admit that the NRC was the one that found the problem 25 in the LER.
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21 1 Inspectors probably will talk about it in 2 the inspection report but the LERs don't clearly state 3 that it was an NRC discovered problem and we're keying 4 off their activities and stuff. You know, LERs, I 5 don't remember seeing an LER in this tritium business 6 and stuff.
7 You know, again, with the LERs this 8 deregulation business and turning off the lights, the 9 NRC turning off the lights on the public and stuff 10 like that. "Well, we're following the rules. The 11 rules say that we don't have to raise the LERs like we 12 used to," and stuff like that. It sets up a pattern, 13 you know.
14 If the utility doesn't have to write an 15 accurate LER, then how far is it when, you know, 16 anything else with the public? Where do the rules say 17 we can lie to you and we can be deceptive and play 18 games and stuff like that. When does this game-19 playing stop? I mean, who stops it? Then you make 20 more rules that says we can turn off more lights and 21 stuff.
22 When does it stop? That is actually how 23 institutional actions happen is when everybody kind 24 of, you. know, when there is a whole world of secret 25 stuff going on it's acceptable and you don't have to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 1 explain yourself to the public. That is usually how 2 these big accidents happen.
3 You know, LERs, I think that's important.
4 You know, if the NRC discovers a problem and it keeps 5 the licensee doing something and stuff. It's this 6 whole game of putting all this information behind the 7 corrective action program, these secret processes that 8 the public doesn't get to see.
9 What I'm saying with LERs, you know, 10 instead of having a complete description by the 11 utility's own mouth of what happened and what they 12 will be doing about it and stuff like that, you're 13 getting these three or four sentence LERs and, you 14 know, in itself is a lie because it's so incomplete 15 and stuff like that.
16 So, I mean, that's my problem with LERs.
17 Just because there is a rule that says you don't have 18 to submit an LER, well, you know, I think we serve a 19 greater ends than a rule. We serve something bigger 20 than a rule. We serve a great nation with millions of 21 people. I think that's what the -- we forget who we 22 serve. We forget. We end up serving ourselves or we 23 end up a set of rules without thinking and stuff like 24 that.
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23 1 Yankee. I think it's a national problem actually.
2 Again, I think the RCA -- the way Entergy inspects 3 their RCA it was shallow. It was self-serving. We 4 think it is designed to limit their responses to 5 problems with the piping leaks underground that 6 continue on to this date, continue on to generate 7 distrust and a loss of integrity and stuff.
8 The RCA was designed for outsiders. It 9 wasn't designed to create a set of high-quality 10 processes internally for the utility or the NRC and 11 stuff like that. It was kind of fluffed to show the 12 public that, you know, "We've got a lot of big words 13 and got a lot of procedures," and all that sort of 14 stuff but it means nothing.
15 That is what we think the NRC was about 16 with Entergy with the tritium problem and stuff. It 17 wasn't a high-quality process that dug down and 18 figured out how could this problem happen and how-do 19 we solve it for the future and how do we fix it. I 20 don't know how the NRC allows a plant to get away with 21 something like that.
22 I think these wishy-washy words and 23 phras~es and stuff with RCA and it kicks into the 24 corrective action program. You know, that secret 25 program that is hidden from the public. Those are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 1 regulated programs. If the RCA is full of fluff and 2 doesn't make sense type of thing, that's a 3 falsification. Then you go into the corrective action 4 program.
5 It's a falsification on a grand scale and 6 stuff. Like I said, I would like to see a detailed 7 explanation of how that AOG piping was characterized 8 in design documents and stuff. Entergy says it was a 9 radioactive containment system. That's what they 10 imply. You know, it only is a containment system if 11 the design documents and the licensing bases words are 12 written down for a plant's life.
13 We all know that is the way it works.
14 It's only if it's written down, if it's in the 15 licensing bases, it's in the licensing document and 16 stuff like that and not just wishy-washy stuff. "If 17 might be in there. It might not be in there. We 18 don't have it in our paperwork but we're going to have 19 to declare it as a radioactive containment system.
20 Then we're going to scam the public by 21 talking about an RCA," and all that sort of stuff.
22 You know, you people see what's happening there as far 23 as what everybody else sees? I would like to know if 24 the plant's stack is a safety-related piece of 25 equipment actually.
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25 1 That's what I'm getting around to 2 eventually. It would be interesting to get somebody, 3 an NRC official, to say the plant's stack is not 4 safety related because we know it's not. That would 5 be interesting. What is safety related? How do we 6 make sure your equipment is running and being 7 maintained right?
8 Anyways, thank you for this opportunity to 9 talk to the Board. I know I kind of was flailing 10 around a little bit but I hope you understand what I 11 was trying to say. Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Mr. Mulligan, this is Ted 13 Quay again. I need you to help me with item No. 2 if 14 you remember when I opened the discussion. I'll read 15 it for you and maybe you can explain this a little bit 16 so we can understand it a little better.
17 "Request an extent of conditions- with 18 Entergy providing the NRC with inaccurate information, 19 false and incomplete documents, and any falsifications 20 to the NRC." What is it that you meant by that? Are 21 you still there, Mr. Mulligan?
22 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes. Well, you know, 23 generally the detector issues with the tritium.
24 That's what I wrote it for. I was trying to talk a 25 little bit broadly.
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26 1 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay.
2 MR. MULLIGAN: Generally about the 3 detector, the tritium detector being down and I knew 4 about it.
5 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay.
6 MR. MULLIGAN:' At the time not very many
/
7 other people did. All those backup samples. I mean, 8 I don't know. Was that required to tell -- that must 9 have been a requirement to tell the NRC. You know, 10 then those three LERs. I could send you an email 11 afterwards and I'll -- you know, those three LERs 12 where the NRC discovered issues.
13 The LER and the utility themselves didn't 14 say that the NRC discovered the problem. I think that 15 is nonfactual, you know. I think it's inaccurate 16 because I think that is a big problem. I mean, I 17 think that is a big part of fixing problems. You 18 know, who found the problem. Was it the NRC or was it 19 the licensee.
20 You know, it's very important that the 21 licensee write in the LER itself who found the 22 problem. "An outside agency found the problem. We 23 should have found it," blah, blah, blah. "We promise 24 -- that's the shortcoming of us and we promise not to 25 do it again. These are things we are doing to not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 allow that to happen again." You know, plus LERs are 2 used for a lot of other stuff; searches and 3 justifications and a lot of analysis.
4 It's a big problem if you sit there and 5 you say, "Well, you know, how many problems has the 6 NRC found for a certain set of plants? Were they 7 found all by us or were they found by the agency?" If 8 you get down and you do an LER search and you say, 9 "Oh, geez, you know, we always found our own problems 10 and the agency never identified one problem." There 11 is a problem here. Do you see what I'm saying?
12 CHAIRMAN QUAY: I understand what you're 13 saying.
14 MR. MULLIGAN: Are you clear what I meant?
15 CHAIRMAN QUAY: I think that helps me with 16 that one.
17 MR. MULLIGAN: Do you want me to send you 18 a list of those LERs that I have issues with?
19 CHAIRMAN QUAY: I think it would be 20 helpful.
21 MR. MULLIGAN: Okay. I will.
22 CHAIRMAN QUAY: What I'm hearing is your 23 issue is with respect to how the issue was identified.
24 Are you saying that Entergy claimed that they 25 discovered them or are you just saying it's silent as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 1 to who discovered them?
2 MR. MULLIGAN: My reading of it is Entergy 3 claimed that they discovered it.
4 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay.
5 MR. MULLIGAN: But, on the other end of 6 it, I mean, it's disconcerting because the LER incurs 7 one thing and then you know that the inspection 8 report, you know, more identifies the problem and 9 stuff. "We found it and we engaged it," type of 10 thing.
11 The LER contradicts what the agency says.
12 That's a problem in itself, you know. The agency is 13 supposed to kind of be aware of accuracies of this 14 type of thing, what the agency is saying in the LER.
15 They are supposed to look over it and say, oh -- you 16 know, they don't make clear that it was an agency 17 discovered problem.
18 Maybe they need to write it again and 19 start getting this process of everybody has got to 20 start clearly talking and writing about what has 21 happened. That is the only way. I mean, the H. B.
22 Robinson episode with LERs.
23 They all say that is critical safety 24 information as far as in the future if we have 25 problems in the future and the way that helps us if we NEAL R.- GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1 go back in the LERs and it gives us clues to what were 2 the problems in the past. it might prevent us from 3 having a new problem. LERs are important.
4 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. At this time does 5 the staff here at headquarters have any questions for 6 Mr. Mulligan? See none.
7 What about the Region?
8 MR. SETZER: Thank, Ted. No questions for 9 the-Region.
10 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. Before I conclude 11 the meeting, members of the public may provide 12 comments regarding the petition and ask questions 13 about the 2.206 petition process. However, as stated 14 at the opening, the purpose of this meeting is not to 15 provide an opportunity for the petitioner or the 16 public to question or examine the PRB regarding the 17 merits of the petition request.
18 Does any member of the public have any 19 comments or any member of the public join us?
20 Does the licensee have any comments?
21 MR. MEYER: No comments.
22 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay.
23 Mr. Mulligan, thank you for taking time to 24 provide the NRC staff with clarifying information on 25 the petition you've submitted.
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30 1 Before we close, does the court reporter 2 need any additional information for the meeting 3 transcript?
4 COURT REPORTER: Hello. This is the court 5 reporter. I would appreciate it if I could have a 6 list of the participants in this call.
7 CHAIRMAN QUAY: We can provide that to 8 you.
9 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. I did email 10 Mr. Kim about that.
11 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Sure. Okay.
12 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN QUAY: We can do that.
14 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. With that, this 16 meeting is concluded and wia will be terminating the 17 phone connection.
18 Thank you, Mr. Mulligan.
19 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you very much for 20 listening to me.
21 (Whereupon, at 9:44 a.m. the conference 22 call was adjourned.)
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of: Vermont Yankee Name of Proceeding: 10 CFR 2.206 Petition of Michael Mulligan Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: (teleconference) were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
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