ML13099A311
| ML13099A311 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Vermont Yankee  |
| Issue date: | 04/02/2013 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 2.206, NRC-4101 | |
| Download: ML13099A311 (38) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition Review Board Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: (teleconference)
Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Work Order No.: NRC-41 01 Pages 1-36 CORIGINAL NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB) 5 CONFERENCE CALL 6 RE 7 VERMONT YANKEE 8 . . . . .
9 TUESDAY 10 APRIL 2, 2013 11 12 13 The conference call was held, Mary 14 Muessle, Chair of the Petition Review Board, 15 presiding.
16 17 PETITIONER: MICHAEL MULLIGAN 18 19 PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:
20 MARY MUESSLE, Deputy Director, Office of 21 Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards 22 JAMES KIM, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition 23 ANDREA RUSSELL, Petition Coordinator, Office of 24 Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 NRC TECHNICAL STAFF PRESENT:
2 JOHN BILLERBECK, Mechanical Engineer, NRR 3 JOSEPH DeBOER, Project Engineer, Region I 4 SEAN MEIGHAN, Acting Branch Chief, Division of 5 Operating Reactor Licensing 6 MUHAMMAD RAZZAQUE, Reactor Systems Branch 7 SCOTT RUTENKROGER, Senior Resident Inspector 8 Vermont Yankee 9
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3 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE 3 I. Opening Remarks by Mr. Kim 4 4 II. Introductions 5 5 III. Remarks by Chair Muessle 7 6 IV. Presentation by Petitioner Mulligan 12 7
8 9
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4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:00 a.m.)
3 MR. KIM: Okay. Good morning. I'd like 4 to thank everybody for attending this meeting.
5 My name is James Kim, and I am a Project 6 Manager in NRR.
7 We are here today to allow the Petitioner, 8 Mr. Michael Mulligan, to address the Petition Review 9 Board regarding 2.206 petition dated December 5, 2012.
10 I am the Petition Manager for the 11 petition. The Petition Review Board Chairman is Mary 12 Muessle.
13 As part of the Petition Review Board's 14 review of this petition, Mr. Michael Mulligan has 15 requested this opportunity to address the PRB. This 16 meeting is scheduled from 9:00 to 10:00 a.m.
17 The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 18 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a Court 19 Reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 20 the petition. The transcript will also be made 21 publicly available.
22 I would like to open this meeting with 23 introductions. As we go around the room, please be 24 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 25 the office that you work for within the NRC for the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1 record. I will start off.
2 This is James Kim. I am a Project Manager 3 in the Division of Operating Reactor Licensing in NRR.
4 CHAIR MUESSLE: My name is Mary Muessle.
5 I am the Petition Review Board Chairman. I'm the 6 Office of NRR. I'm an SES manager there in the 7 Division of Policy and Rulemaking.
8 MR. BILLERBECK: I'm John Billerbeck. I'm 9 a Mechanical Engineer with NRR in the Division of 10 Engineering.
11 MR. RAZZAQUE: This is Muhammad Razzaque 12 from Reactor Systems Branch, NRR.
13 MR. MEIGHAN: Sean Meighan, Acting Branch 14 Chief, Division of Operating Reactor Licensing, 15 Branch 11.
16 MS. RUSSELL: Andrea Russell, 2.206 17 Coordinator.
18 MR. KIM: At this time, are there any NRC 19 participants from headquarters on the phone?
20 (No response.)
21 Are there any NRC participants from the 22 regional office on the phone?
23 MR. DeBOER: Yes. My name is Joe DeBoer.
24 I'm a Project Engineer in Region I.
25 MR. KIM: Okay. Are there any NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1 representatives for the licensee on the phone?
2 (No response.)
3 Mr. Mulligan, would you please introduce 4 yourself for the record?
5 PETITIONER MULLIGAN: Mike Mulligan. I'm 6 a whistleblower. I worked at Vermont Yankee for 13 7 years. I was in the Navy on a fast-track submarine.
8 I have been working on -- ever since then, I've been 9 -- and I got fired from Vermont Yankee for raising 10 safety issues.
11 And I've been working on Vermont Yankee, 12 Palisades, Pilgrim, and a bunch of plants. I've been 13 keeping close track of all of the correspondence and 14 the inspection reports and the LERs and all of that 15 sort of stuff. I've spent an enormous amount of time 16 on their website.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. KIM: Okay. Thanks.
19 It is not required for the members of the 20 public to introduce themselves for this call.
21 However, if there are any members of the public on the 22 phone that wish to do so at this time, please state 23 your name for the record.
24 (No response.)
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7 1 that we each need to speak clearly and loudly to make 2 sure that the Court Reporter can accurately transcribe 3 this meeting. If you have something that you'd like 4 to say, please first state your name for the record.
5 For those dialing into the meeting, please 6 remember to mute your phones to minimize any 7 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 8 a mute button, this can be done by pressing the keys 9 star six. To unmute, press the star six keys again.
10 Thank you.
11 At this time, I will turn it over to the 12 PRB Chairman, Mary Muessle.
13 CHAIR MUESSLE: Good morning. Welcome to 14 our meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by 15 Mr. Mulligan. First, I'd like to share some 16 background on our process. Section 2.206 of Title X 17 of the Code of Federal Regulations describes the 18 petition process, the primary mechanism for the public 19 to request enforcement action by the NRC in a public 20 process.
21 This process permits anyone to pet-ition 22 NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 23 licensees or licensed activities. Depending on the 24 results of this evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 25 or revoke an NRC-issued license, or take any other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 1 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
2 The NRC staff guidance for the disposition 3 of 2.206 petition's request is Management 4 Directive 8.11, which is publicly available.
5 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 6 the Petitioner an opportunity to comment on the PRB's 7 initial recommendation to not accept the petition and 8 a second opportunity to provide any additional 9 explanation or support for the petition. The 10 Petitioner will have 45 minutes to address the PRB.
11 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 12 an opportunity for the Petitioner to request or 13 examine the PRB on the merits or the issues presented 14 in the petition request. No decisions regarding the 15 merits of the petition will be made at this meeting.
16 The PRB typically consists of a Chairman, 17 usually a manager at the SES level at the NRC, the 18 Senior Executive Service. It has a Petition Manager 19 and a PRB Coordinator. Other members of the Board are 20 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 21 the information and the petition request.
22 At this time, I would like to introduce 23 the Board. I am Mary Muessle; I am the PRB Chairman.
24 James Kim is the Petition Manager for the petition 25 under discussion today. And Andrea Russell is the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 office's PRB Coordinator.
2 Our technical staff includes Muhammad 3 Razzaque from the Reactor Systems Branch, John 4 Billerbeck from the Component Performance and Testing 5 Branch, Dave DeBoer from the NRC's Region I's Division 6 of Reactor Programs. We also expect a representative 7 from our Office of General Counsel to join us today on 8 the call, but she has not -- she has not dialed in 9 yet.
10 MR. RUTENKROGER: Excuse me, Mary. This 11 is Scott Rutenkroger. I just want to let you know 12 that I did dial in, about a minute late, but --
13 CHAIR MUESSLE: Okay. Thank you. And 14 Scott is the Senior Resident Inspector at Vermont 15 Yankee Nuclear Power Station.
16 As described in our process, the NRC staff 17 may ask clarifying questions in order to better under 18 the Petitioner's presentation and to reach a reasoned 19 decision whether to accept or reject the Petitioner's 20 request for a review under the 2.206 process.
21 I would like to describe the scope of the 22 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 23 date. On December 5, 2012, Mr. Mulligan submitted to 24 the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding the Vermont 25 Yankee Nuclear Power Station. Mr. Mulligan requested NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 an immediate shutdown of Vermont Yankee because, in 2 Mr. Mulligan's words, "the NRC and Entergy can't keep 3 their nuclear safety paperwork and documents accurate 4 and up to date."
5 He also requested 10 additional actions, 6 which I will not state now unless someone would like 7 me to on the call.
8 (No response.)
9 Okay. So now to discuss the NRC's 10 activities to date. On December 20, 2012, the PRB met 11 internally to discuss the request for immediate action 12 of emergency shutdown of Vermont Yankee. The PRB 13 denied the request for immediate action because there 14 was no immediate safety concern to the plant or to the 15 health and safety of the public.
16 On December 21, 2012, Mr. Mulligan was 17 informed of the PRB's decision on the immediate action 18 request. On January 9, 2012, Mr. Mulligan addressed 19 the PRB via teleconference to provide supplemental 20 information for the Board's consideration prior to the 21 PRB's internal meeting to make an initial 22 recommendation.
23 On January 23, 2013, the PRB met 24 internally to discuss the petition and to make an 25 initial recommendation. The PRB determined that some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 1 of the petition requests do not meet the criteria for 2 review because the petition failed to meet -- to 3 provide sufficient facts to warrant further inquiry.
4 The remaining requests within the petition 5 meet the requirements -- sorry. The remaining 6 requests within the petition meet the criteria for 7 rejection because they were not enforcement-related 8 actions.
9 We also confirmed at that time that there 10 were no safety concerns at the plant. Therefore, the 11 PRB's initial recommendation was to not accept the 12 petition.
13 On March 21, 2013, Mr. Mulligan was 14 informed of the PRB's initial recommendation and 15 requested another opportunity to address the PRB, 16 which is the purpose of today's call. Following this 17 meeting, the PRB will meet internally to determine 18 whether a modification or a change to its initial 19 recommendation is warranted. The outcome of this 20 internal meeting will be discussed with the 21 Petitioner.
22 As a reminder for the phone participants, 23 please identify yourself if you make any remarks, as 24 this will help in the preparation of the meeting 25 transcript that will be made publicly available.
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12 1 Thank you for that.
2 Mr. Mulligan, I will now turn it over to 3 you to allow you to provide any information that you 4 believe the PRB should consider as part of the 5 petition.
6 It is now 9:10, so you will have until 7 9:55 for your remarks.
8 Thank you.
9 PETITIONER MULLIGAN: Well, thank you very 10 much for this opportunity. I can remember -- I can 11 remember when Entergy first came onto the scene over 12 here at Vermont Yankee. I remember, you know, 13 employees coming up to me on the streets and they are 14 talking to me about Entergy. And, you know, I asked, 15 "Well, how are they?" This was probably, you know, 16 2007. No, 2008, and stuff.
17 And they basically said, you know, "Mike, 18 they are all business. Everything about them is 19 business. It's all money and stuff, and they're 20 arrogant." And so, you know, of course I had issues 21 with Vermont Yankee before that, and stuff like that.
22 And so -- and then I remember -- I 23 remember reading the Palisades inspection reports and 24 documents. These guys are -- these guys are out of 25 control and the agencies can't figure out a way to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 1 interact with them and put a stop to it.
2 And, you know -- and I remember saying to 3 myself, well, what -- you know, what are your 4 expectations? I said, well, I'll just get something 5 on paper anyways.
6 And I pondered, I says, you know, can you 7 imagine this -- in 2011, I can remember thinking --
8 I've got it on paper and I says, "Can you imagine all 9 of the problems that are going to happen in the next 10 year, next two years, or so? Can you imagine the 11 mind-boggling number of problems?"
12 Even though you've talked about it and 13 you've identified there's a pretty big problem, and 14 stuff like that, and -- you know, and then Palisades 15 showed up with all of their unimaginable problems that 16 showed up, and then they have continued to be a leaky 17 plant over and over again, and stuff like that.
18 And I can remember, you know, Vermont 19 Yankee was before that with their tritium problem, and 20 the essence of Entergy not being honest and truthful.
21 And the whole thing was kind of revolving around plant 22 disclosures and being honest and truthful and 23 immediate disclosures and thorough documentation, you 24 know, because everybody reads documents later on, and 25 it's critical that we know the history to interact NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 with the future and stuff, and, you know, the essence 2 of -- of accurate documents and stuff.
3 And Entergy had problems being truthful, 4 playing word games up there in Montpelier, and that 5 type of stuff. They just -- they showed arrogance in 6 a lot of their communications and stuff to the state, 7 and we are seeing the results of that today.
8 You know, repeated arrogance, you know, I 9 tell everybody it's a cold-hearted ideology, really, 10 that propels a lot of this sort of stuff, this sense 11 of entitlement of -- they work for themselves and 12 their profits and the company, and they don't work for 13 us as an entity for our nation and our national 14 interest and our greatest interest.
15 And so those are the things that I have 16 been concerned about, and I really haven't seen much 17 of a change. You know, I understand everybody is 18 following the rules and that type of thing, but, you 19 know, rules are very -- they carry very little 20 information. They carry zero intelligence. And, you 21 know, we've all got to follow the rules, but we've all 22 got to -- rules are the basics, the very basics of how 23 we control our behavior.
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15 1 and keep attention to what you're doing and interact 2 and create a voice, and those types of things, you 3 know, is what our great nation is built on, is the 4 ability to be -- it's not to say -- to equate this 5 system that all we are concerned about is the rules 6 and following the rules.
7 We have enormous capabilities to act above 8 the rules, to interact -- you know, a rule doesn't 9 tell us when to interact with a problem. It's our 10 intelligence and stuff and the ability to interact 11 with our world and to assess it and to anticipate 12 problems and change the world. I think we all have 13 those kind of -- these kind of gifts, and they are all 14 in us, and we just have to develop them.
15 You know, I was just thinking with the --
16 a lot of documents and the inspection reports and the 17 public declarations of the utilities, they are 18 structured to not communicate. They are structured to 19 give limited information out there, you know, to not 20 be held accountable and that type of thing.
21 I see it in the LERs, their -- you know, 22 the rules say you have to -- you have to give the 23 minimum amount of information, because, you know, your 24 enemies are out there and they will take advantage of 25 it and stuff like that.
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16 1 So the whole thing is the essence of 2 giving very little information, and it has gotten 3 worse in the last two decades, both under the 4 Republicans and the Democrats. The Democrats are just 5 as bad as the Republicans, unfortunately, with this.
6 They don't seem to understand how important 7 information is to people like me and my community and 8 the idea that it's part of our constitutional ideals.
9 We are an open government. We are one of 10 the most open governments on the face of the planet, 11 and we strive to take into consideration how important 12 an open government and an open society is, and we give 13 information. We give it to people like me, so-called 14 enemies, and I get to interact with my politicians and 15 the media and the environment around me, and stuff 16 like that.
17 And we giVe feedback to the NRC and to the 18 government itself, and that's -- and everybody makes 19 mid-course corrections, and stuff like that. It is 20 vital for a person like me to know what is going on at 21 Vermont Yankee and a lot of these plants, and stuff 22 like that, because that's how I interact with my 23 community and that's how I interact with my government 24 and stuff.
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17 1 or Rosies, you know, and we use rules to be 2 undemocratic, and that type of thing, I think it's --
3 I think it's a tragedy. I think it's -- I think it's 4 just a tragedy. It's not who we are. That's -- we're 5 the greatest democracy, actually republic, but we --
6 the ideals of a democracy and open government, an open 7 society, is who we are.
8 And, unfortunately, a lot of things -- a 9 lot of the way the world works now, we've all gotten 10 to the -- you know, this privacy thing, and we are 11 afraid of giving information out, we are afraid of 12 letting people see our humanity, our human mistakes 13 and errors, and also some of the -- a lot of times our 14 -- things that we catch that are astonishing, you 15 know.
16 It's almost like we think the world is an 17 enemy in front of us, and we've got to hide in corners 18 and darkened corners and not let people -- not let the 19 world see how beautiful we are.
20 And so, you know, an example is, well, in 21 the recent LERs what I have been dealing with with the 22 SRVs, it's just not complete information. From the 23 get-go, it is -- I know it is information that is --
24 the first LER with the SRVs was incomplete and 25 inaccurate mostly.
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18 1 And it's astonishing. If that's what the 2 world is, and that's what Entergy and the NRC is 3 seeing, that's such a poor state of engineering and 4 professionalism, that there shouldn't be any plant 5 running in the United States. If that's -- Vermont's 6 first LER is what is -- is the best of us, is the best 7 of engineering, we can allow that plant to operate and 8 not know what the -- not know the condition of the 9 components that they are operating, who are we? It's 10 terrible, you know?
11 And didn't the Commissioner just talk 12 about, who are we, you know, and prod us to be -- prod 13 us to be bigger and better than we are? And so the 14 LERs -- then, the second rendition of the LER came out 15 and it was still inaccurate, and they didn't know what 16 was the cause of that thing, or at least that's what 17 they say.
18 And I think that's like most -- what's 19 happening is you are following the rules, but -- and 20 you don't realize you are giving incomplete and 21 inaccurate information out to the public, out to the 22 nation in general, and stuff. I worry about that.
23 Pilgrim -- Pilgrim plant with their SRV 24 problems, they have brand-new SRVs. Within a year, 25 one failed and started leaking and they had to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 1 shutdown, and a host of different -- the NRC let it 2 get by. Entergy said that there was no problem with 3 those new SRVs.
4 Southern Company said that -- they were 5 brought in as the backstop of everybody else, and they 6 said that there was nothing wrong with the SRVs and 7 that type of thing, perfectly good and nothing wrong 8 with them. And then, they started up and within a 9 year they had another leak, and then they had another 10 leak, and then they had another leak. We have yet to 11 see any of these other LERs on the SRVs, and stuff 12 like that.
13 So it's the sense that we don't get the 14 information, the immediacy of what is going on. We 15 don't have the ability to, you know, put it in our 16 heads, mull it around and interact with the 17 politicians in the agency, and, you know, went on with 18 a participatory democracy type of thing. That's what 19 we're worried about.
20 And we've got issues of -- let's see, the 21 grid in New England is becoming unstable itself. Our 22 sources of energy, I call it a -- becoming a -- as far 23 as our electric grid and our industry sources, a Third 24 World-style Guatemala oligarchy as far as all of the 25 different players and each -- everybody sabotaging NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1 each other, and new sources are coming in, and people 2 are, like I said, sabotaging each other.
3 And then there is this -- these secretly 4 expensive sources of electricity that is undermining 5 us all. And the whole thing is a sense of -- who is 6 controlling all of these things? Is it the United 7 States Government? Are we setting the codes and rules 8 and stuff like that?
9 Or is it a -- there is a group of people, 10 an oligarchy, a special people that have the controls 11 of what is going on with our grid, and where one time 12 we've got astonishing expensive electricity, and a few 13 months later it's -- the cost of electricity is 14 crashing through the floor, and nobody can afford to 15 make electricity.
16 You know, it sounds like Guatemala. You 17 know, it sounds like a South American Third World 18 government -- country operating their electric system, 19 and the sources that -- sources of the energy that 20 support our electric system.
21 And so -- and we've got financial 22 qualification problems at Entergy. The NRC has got 23 concerns that they are financially capable, but they 24 got good grades, you know, from -- Yankee's got good 25 grades, green grades this year, and everything is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 1 forgotten in the past.
2 We have issues at Vermont Yankee with the 3 silts. They have taken the silt out of the surface 4 water base and they deposited it somewhere, and it --
5 the rainwater -- this caused the rainwater to go 6 through a drain cover, whatever, and go into the 7 switch rooms, stuff like that.
8 And, you know, in the back of my head I 9 can say, you know, we had -- since my days at Vermont 10 Yankee, we've had issues with cable -- cable water 11 seals and fire seals and other kind of seals in that 12 switch room. I mean, what is the periodic nature of 13 -- they can't maintain the seals in general.
14 I mean, if you look over a long time, 15 there's a lot of problems with seals. You know, how 16 about the testing? How come they didn't have post-17 installation testing? How come they didn't -- how 18 come they haven't, you know, put water in there? Hey, 19 what are the results? Can we see water in that switch 20 room drain type of thing?
21 You know, just since that, you know, 22 testing, you know, we put in new stuff and we test it, 23 and that type of thing, did they put the silt, you 24 know? They -- how come the silt -- you know, it 25 sounds like the silt wasn't -- two years ago, or when NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 1 they have done it in the past, they put it someplace 2 else. And this time they put the silt in a different 3 place that caused this problem. You know, it sounds 4 kind of unprofessional and stuff.
5 The ventilation system -- the fans, they 6 were doing maintenance on them or something like that, 7 and they started the system up and one of the fans 8 didn't work. I think it was the supply -- the exhaust 9 fan didn't work and the supply fan worked.
10 And then they talked about, well, the 11 panels are for -- that's what the panels are for as 12 far as misoperation of the ventilation system. Well, 13 I seem to remember it was more or less those panels 14 were -- you know, it's technically accurate.
15 They were for, you know, the hydrogen leak 16 in an accident, and certainly all of them -- I don't 17 know, what is it, nine panels there and stuff like 18 that, and certainly if you have a type of a -- break 19 of a steam pipe and stuff like that, those are the --
20 you know, I kind of thought it was -- those kind of 21 things were the reason why the panels were there.
22 And, again, it's kind of the essence of 23 everybody is framing the information to sound pleasing 24 to minimize the impact and not tell the whole truth, 25 and stuff like that. And if you know the whole -- if NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1 we see the problem, and our enemies even see the 2 problem, then we would fix them, type of deal.
3 And, you know, that's the sense of what I 4 have as far as the NRC and utilities. They have been 5 withholding information. They have been structuring 6 it -- intentionally structuring the disclosure of the 7 information to us. And they have been protecting 8 everybody, you know. Everybody is protecting their 9 buddies and -- type of thing.
10 And, you know, we get in more trouble 11 doing good and acting in a group than we do when we, 12 you know, intentionally do bad and stuff like that.
13 It kind of -- when we think we're doing good, and we 14 justify it under -- for good reasons, that -- you 15 know, that bypasses a lot of our protection circuits 16 in our brains and that type of thing.
17 So, you know, and what is going on with 18 Entergy -- Arkansas I. I remember Palisades --
19 Palisades I talked about in one of my 2.206s. I 20 remember talking about their crane up there in the 21 Reactor Building, and I remember making a joke about, 22 what would happen if -- you know, you guys are taking 23 -- you're not taking the protective interlocks of the 24 crane and the general operation, the -- doing the 25 safety checks before you operate the machinery, the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 1 skills needed to operate that piece of equipment, and 2 stuff, you know, it seemed like there wasn't enough 3 training and enough paying attention to procedures and 4 stuff.
5 The NRC wrote about these things and 6 stuff, and I joked about, you know, what happens if a 7 cable snaps and a reactor head goes -- crashes down 8 through numerous levels of floors, and stuff like 9 that. That would be the most amazing two seconds in 10 your life, actually listening to that.
11 And so since that, you know, all of us --
12 as far as with Palisades, Vermont Yankee, Pilgrim, and 13 stuff like that, I mean, I worry that there is 14 underlying indications with Entergy as a whole that we 15 -- that a lot of problems are submerged and we can't 16 see it, and we can't interact with Entergy. We can't 17 find a way to control those -- this corporation and 18 stuff.
19 And I -- you know, since -- I feel 20 powerless. I have tried writing, in my limited 21 skills, about the problem with these plants, and stuff 22 like that, trying to say that -- it's really not one 23 plant. It's not Palisades or it's not Pilgrim.
24 There's a system behind it. It's not even Entergy.
25 You know, it's the system, it's the organizations, the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 1 interacting organizations, our legislature, our 2 President, the regulatory rules. The whole system --
3 it's not working.
4 And if you study all of these documents 5 and stuff, from my point of view, you can see that.
6 You can see that the thing is not working, and 7 everybody knows they are not working, but most of the 8 officialdom sits there and, you know, talks in 9 happyland, everything is pretty well much going on, 10 and that -- going good.
11 And Vermont Yankee got green grades this 12 marking -- this marking period and stuff, and yet here 13 we are at another plant at -- with Entergy, and where 14 there is a pretty big event is what I'm hearing.
15 Unfortunately, a death has occurred and numerous 16 injuries and stuff, and most of us outside are getting 17 the idea that, you know, you're kind of withholding 18 information from us.
19 You're kind of -- you're kind of 20 structuring the disclosure information, like the LERs, 21 you know, to in a pleasing way -- you're not just 22 giving us the cold, hard facts, and that type of 23 thing. And I feel as though that, you know, if you 24 were -- if the NRC was listening to me, if the NRC had 25 restructured their 2.206, if you gave me an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 1 opportunity, a structured opportunity to demand 2 information, and everybody was required to be truthful 3 and honest, not -- just follow the rules, because the 4 rules are meant -- the way they are written nowadays, 5 you know, it's, hey, the utilities basically made 6 those rules and they are interacting with our U.S.
7 legislators, Congress, and stuff like that.
8 They are not written by the people outside 9 the plant. They are written by the companies and the 10 money they have with Congress and stuff like that. If 11 the rules would have allowed me to -- and the NRC and 12 the utilities, we all act -- interacted together, 13 committee, and everybody was forced to be honest with 14 each other, and stuff like that, I think a life could 15 have been saved.
16 I think there is injuries that could have 17 been prevented with Entergy over there in Arkansas.
18 We would have seen the system that Entergy -- the 19 dysfunction of the system of Entergy, and we would 20 have fixed it. I believe that if we were honest, if 21 everybody was honest with each other and open, and we 22 acted in the national interest and the greater 23 interest, I think we could have prevented Arkansas I.
24 And, you know, I still say to myself, I 25 think I said, well, the next two years, what is going NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 to happen in the next two years? What kind of mind-2 boggling problems are going to erupt from Entergy in 3 the next two years, you know?
4 They dropped this spatter a couple of days 5 ago. What else is going to pop up? They've got a 6 plant that is in a -- in the national -- it's all over 7 the media as far as Palisades, wondering what is going 8 on with them. You know, the NRC seems to think they 9 are cured, and that type of thing. Right? And they 10 think Vermont Yankee is cured. They think Pilgrim is 11 doing well and stuff.
12 And then this other problem pops up that 13 is a magnitude that is astonishing, is what we can see 14 and stuff. And so we think the system doesn't work.
15 We think the whole system doesn't work, from the 16 legislature to the -- the mechanisms of government 17 doesn't work here. The disclosure of information to 18 each other and how we are supposed to work as a 19 country doesn't work, and it's a big problem we see.
20 And like I said, there's noise at Vermont 21 Yankee. There's the ventilation system, the switch 22 gear problem. You know, I tell everybody, you know, 23 T don't care how insignificant a problem is. Every 24 little insignificant problem is a golden opportunity 25 to understand the system behind it.
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28 1 If you sit and look at these insignificant 2 problems, and you ponder and ask the questions, where 3 did it come from, how can I catch it the next time, I 4 will catch it the next time, I guarantee I'll catch it 5 the next time or -- and stuff. And a lot of times 6 little problems, you know, you sit and ponder it, and 7 how all of a sudden you look around and there's a 8 monster sitting next to it, and you say, "Holy 9 Christ."
10 And the only reason why I got attention --
11 the only reason that brought -- drew my attention was 12 that this -- talk about this little system, little 13 problem that nobody -- nobody knew.
14 So, you know -- just looking over my 15 notes. So, you know, like I said before, we think 16 that what we can see is the NRC and the utilities, you 17 know, are systematically managing the information, 18 systemically and systematically managing the 19 information to project an incorrect image to us.
20 And that's a big problem, if they're doing 21 that. That's a huge problem, if they can't be honest 22 to us, and if the agency, you know, is -- according to 23 them they're following the rules to be dishonest to 24 us, you know. There's something wrong there, you 25 know, and I've seen how, you know, we gain rules NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1 between us and groups and I have -- I have -- you 2 know, looking back at some of my own behavior, it is 3 just horrendous what I have done in the past a lot of 4 times as far as sometimes being in a group and, you 5 know, acting in that group thing and letting them --
6 and me not being under full control of my capabilities 7 and stuff like that.
8 I have been in places that -- when I was 9 younger, I have done things that were pretty bad and 10 stuff, and I see how groups of people -- I know how 11 groups of people -- I've been involved in a lot of 12 things in the community and groups of people and 13 organizations that are wonderful.
14 We wouldn't be where we are without 15 organizations. Most of our troubles emerge from 16 organizational and group thinking and stuff like that, 17 and, you know, we should be above that in this stage 18 of the game. But we are going backwards.
19 So I think the grid is in trouble. Our 20 electric system is in trouble. You know, as a whole, 21 it questions, you know, the reliability of supplying 22 emergency power to a lot of these nuke plants in New 23 England. We sense that a lot of the rules are not 24 fair. And, furthermore, they don't -- they are not 25 fair, they are corrupt, they give us too expensive NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 1 electricity, and they are all driving the system to 2 being unstable. And we worry about that, what that 3 does.
4 The price of electricity, as already --
5 which the utilities depend upon has been spiking and 6 crashing, and stuff like that. It's out of control, 7 and it's an enormous system, and we worry about not as 8 a nation being in control of these attributes, and the 9 whole thing spinning out of control.
10 We have seen in New England, you know, in 11 this time of -- there is supposed to be an excess of 12 natural gas and you have deflationary prices there.
13 We've seen how the system has created a bottleneck and 14 created a crisis with expensive electricity and 15 threatening not to have -- not being able to support 16 the transmission system or electricity to our homes, 17 and stuff like that. It's a grave concern as far as 18 what I can see.
19 And so -- just two seconds here. Oh.
20 And, you know, like I -- like I said earlier, the --
21 we got to -- to the process, you know. Like, you 22 know, I wonder if it would have been different if I 23 would have had access to more information, if I would 24 have created a discussion, instead of people shunning 25 me, in the agency at times shunning me, instead of, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 1 you know, they kind of drew me into it or drew people 2 like me into it, into the problems, and we created 3 some of our own different perspectives, and we all, 4 you know, have seen more of the world, would 5 Arkansas I have happened?
6 Would Entergy have been a lot more 7 stronger of a company? Would the agency have been 8 different? I think it would have been, you know, if 9 we were more the ideals of our country and our 10 constitution instead of these -- an oligarchy type of 11 thing with our little groups, exclusive groups and 12 stuff like that.
13 I think we could have stopped it, and it 14 worries me what kind of problems we are going to see 15 in the next two years. And I'm -- and, you know, what 16 kind of flows in the head -- you know, two years ago 17 and now we've got dropped spatter, and will the next 18 one be a dropped head in the Reactor Building? Will 19 a regular crane fail? because it was aging, type of 20 thing? What other things? What does the next two 21 years have in store for us?
22 I'm telling you, the last two years we've 23 had some pretty big problems, and our capacity factor 24 shows it, and a lot of these utilities are under 25 increasing stress in a lot of different ways. We've NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1 got a lot of bad actors out there, San Onofre, Fort 2 Calhoun, TVA.
3 I talked a lot in the past about 4 counterfeit parts and stuff like that, and fraudulent 5 parts and stuff like that. And TVA is talking about 6 exactly the stuff I talked about a couple of years 7 ago, or a year ago, and that type of thing, a lot of 8 what I have talked about with the SRVs at Vermont 9 Yankee, and going to talk about at Pilgrim and stuff 10 like that.
11 So what have we got in front of us? We 12 think this is going to be good as far as how the 13 public thinks about the NRC and the nuclear industry.
14 In two years, will we be more insecure? Will the 15 public be more -- have a sense of, well, these guys 16 aren't straight-shooters. They are all -- we -- will 17 the nation wake up and say, you know, we can't trust 18 these guys to tell us the truth.
19 An example was Pilgrim and the casks, and 20 the Pilgrim -- took pictures, and then, again, the 21 sense that the NRC Public Relations Department and 22 inspectors, they were giving incomplete information.
23 Since that, they caught the agency with their pants 24 down, and the utility, and it has taken months to 25 straighten the mess out, instead of it should have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 1 taken just being honest, and, you know, not playing by 2 the rules and using the rules to hide information and 3 not use -- making the rules to disclose information, 4 making it mandatory to disclose information.
5 Is that what is going to happen in the 6 next two years, where many in New England have -- lose 7 faith in the NRC, and certainly Entergy? Is this --
8 is this where it is all heading as far as the LERs 9 being more incomplete and more inaccurate, and that 10 type of thing?
11 And we get in our heads that the NRC is 12 not successful, and 25 percent of our electricity is 13 not ethical and honest, and we as a collective group 14 do something crazy as far as maybe wanting to shut a 15 bunch of them down to our detriment, is that where 16 we're heading? Will we see more Arkansas I type of 17 events to make us be more insecure with the nuclear 18 industry and stuff?
19 You know, I see a lot of problems that are 20 bubbling under the surface. And if an event shows up, 21 a lot of dishonesty everybody gets away with and 22 stuff. And if an event shows up and everybody does 23 what they are trained -- been trained to do, and being 24 complete and dishonest in what they have allowed to 25 have gotten away with in the past, and an event shows NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 1 up that creates -- that shows this system that's 2 there, we are going to lose faith, besides in 3 government or a segment of government.
4 We are going to lose more faith in the 5 nuclear industry and the integrity of the nuclear --
6 we are going to all think that they all stick together 7 and just -- like they don't even belong in the United 8 States. And we are going to collectively think they 9 are untrustworthy, you know? Back to 1979 again type 10 of thing, you know, I don't think we're far away from 11 that. We are just -- we are a nation that doesn't 12 have a lot of faith in government already, and stuff 13 like that.
14 I worry about the trends of the industry, 15 you know. Is it declining? Is more people losing 16 faith? Has the system responded with happy tunes and 17 la la la la, you know, like a three-year-old kid whose 18 parents are trying to explain something and they go 19 "la la la la," like they don't want to hear it? Is 20 that what is happening with a lot of the NRC and the 21 utilities?
22 Do you think that kind of making that 23 noise to not hear what is going on, do you think that 24 is going to work for very long? I don't think so.
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35 1 come out of this pretty quickly, if everybody became 2 more honest. But changing behavior is tough.
3 You know, like I can see it in the eyes of 4 Palisades in 2011, and stuff like that. I can see how 5 unresponsive the system is. It's huge. They don't 6 listen, and stuff like that. And they can't -- they 7 can't see themselves what they're doing and stuff, and 8 I worry about that in the next two years. What will 9 they -- what will the next two years bring?
10 We have a terrible accident, terrible 11 accident like Fukushima or something like it, or would 12 it be a much lesser accident but be in the United 13 States and more open, it would be -- be in our minds 14 deeper and stuff.
15 So anyways, I thank you for this 16 opportunity for letting me talk.
17 CHAIR MUESSLE: Thank you, Mr. Mulligan.
18 At this time, does the staff here at 19 headquarters have any questions for Mr. Mulligan?
20 (No response.)
21 What about questions from the region?
22 MR. DeBOER: We have no questions at this 23 time.
24 CHAIR MUESSLE: Okay. Mr. Mulligan, thank 25 you for taking time to provide the NRC staff with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 1 clarifying information on the petition that you 2 submitted.
3 Before we close, does the Court Reporter 4 need any additional information for the meeting 5 transcript?
6 (Whereupon, some name spellings were 7 provided to the Court Reporter.)
8 CHAIR MUESSLE: Okay. Thank you. With 9 that, this meeting is concluded and we will be 10 terminating the phone connection.
11 Thank you.
12 (Whereupon, at 9:49 a.m., the proceedings 13 in the foregoing matter were concluded.)
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Proceeding: 10 CFR 2.206 Petition-Vermont Yankee by Michael Mulligan Docket Number: n/a Location: teleconference were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction and that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
4- -------
Official Reporter Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
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