ML100330603
| ML100330603 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Vermont Yankee File:NorthStar Vermont Yankee icon.png |
| Issue date: | 01/25/2010 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 2.206, NRC-043 | |
| Download: ML100330603 (35) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
2.206 Petition of Michael Mulligan RE Vermont Yankee Docket Number:
50-271 Location:
(telephone conference)
Date:
Monday, January 25, 2010 Work Order No.:
NRC-043 Pages 1-33 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3i 3
.+.+++
4 NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 5
+++++
6 PETITION REVIEW BOARD DISCUSSION WITH PETITIONER 7
x 8
IN THE MATTER OF:
9 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION 10 OF MICHAEL MULLIGAN 11 WITH RESPECT TO, 12 VERMONT YANKEE 13
x 14 Monday, January 25, 2010 15 16 The above-entitled matter was convened via 17 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m.
18 Eastern Standard Time.
19 BEFORE:
20 TED QUAY, Petition Review Board Chairman 21 Division of Policy and Rulemaking 22 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALSO PRESENT:
JIM DEVINCENTIS, Vermont Yankee DON JACKSON, Region 1, DPR JAMES KIM, Petition Manager, NRR TANYA MENSAH, NRR MICHAEL MULLIGAN, Petitioner NANCY SALGADO, NRR TOM SETZER, Region 1, DPR NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
(2:33 p.m.)
3 MR.
KIM:
Good afternoon.
I'd like to 4
thank everyone for attending this meeting.
My names-5 is James Kim, and I'm the Project Manager.
6 We are here today to allow the petitioner, 7
Mr. Michael Mulligan, to address the Petition Review 8
- Board, regarding 2.206 petition dated January 1 2th, 9
2010.
10 I'm the Petition Manager for the petition.
11 The Petition Review Board Chairman is Ted Quay.
As 12 part of the purpose of the Review Board's review of 13 this petition, Mr. Michael Mulligan has requested this 14 opportunity to address the PRB.
15 The meeting is scheduled from 2:30 to 4:00 16 pm.
This meeting is being recorded by the NRC 17 Operations Center, and will be transcribed by a court 18 reporter.
The transcript will become a supplement to 19 the petition.
The transcript will also be made 20 publicly available.
21 I'd like to open this meeting with 22 introductions.
As you go around the room, please be 23 sure to clearly speak your name, your position, and 24 those that you work for within the NRC, for the 25 record.
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I'll start off.
This is James Kim, the 2
Project Manager, in the Division of Operating Reactor 3
Licensing, in the NRR.
4 MS.
MENSAH:
My name is Tanya Mensah.
I 5
am the 2.206 coordinator, in the Office of Nuclear 6
Reactor Regulation.
7 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
I'm Ted Quay, the SES 8
Chairman of the Petition Review Board, and I'm in the 9
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, the NRR.
10 MS.
SALGADO:
Hello, I'm Nancy Salgado.
11 I'm the Branch Chief in the Division of Operating 12 Reactor Licensing, NRR.
13 MR.
KIM:
We are finished with 14 introductions at the NRC headquarters.
At this time, 15 are there any NRC participants from the regional 16 office on the phone?
17 MR.
JACKSON:
This is Don Jackson, with 18
- DRP, in Region 1.
19 MR. SETZER:
Hello, this is Tom Setzer.
20 I'm also with Region 1, DRP, Senior Project Engineer 21 for Vermont Yankee.
22 MR.
KIM:
Are there any representatives 23 from the licensee on the phone?
24 MR.
DEVINCENTIS:
- Yes, this is Jim 25 Devincentis, Senior Lead Licensing Engineer, Energy f
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Nuclear.
2 MR.
KIM:
Mr. Mulligan, would you please 3
introduce yourself for the record?
4 MR.
MULLIGAN:
I'm Mike Mulligan, and I 5
live in Hinsdale, New Hampshire, across the river from 6
Vermont Yankee.
7 MR.
KIM:
Are there any other associated 8
members of the public on the phone?
9 I'm hearing none.
10 I'd like to emphasize that we each need to 11 speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the court 12 reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
If 13 you have something that you'd like to say, please 14 state your name for the record.
15 At this time, I
turn it over to PRB 16 Chairman, Ted Quay.
17 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
This is Ted Quay.
Welcome 18 to this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted 19 by Mr. Mulligan.
20 I
would like to first share some 21 background on our process.
Section 2.206 of Title 10 22 of the Code of Federal Regulations describes the 23 petition process.
, Section 2.206 is the primary 24 mechanism for the public to request enforcement action 25 by the NRC in a public process.
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This process permits anyone to petition 2
the NRC to take enforcement-type action related to the 3
NRC licensees or licensed activities.
4 Depending on the results of its 5
evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, or revoke an 6
NRC-issued license, or take any other appropriate 7
enforcement action to resolve a problem.
The NRC 8
staff's guidance for the disposition of 2.206 petition 9
requests is in Management Directive 8.11, which is 10 publicly available.
11 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 12 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 13 additional information, explanation, or support for 14 the petition, before the Petition Review Board's 15 initial consideration and recommendation.
16 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 17 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 18 examine the Petition Review Board on the merits or the 19 issues presented in a petition request.
20 No decision regarding the merits of this 21 petition will be made at this meeting.
Following this 22 meeting, the Petition Review Board will conduct its 23 internal deliberations.
The outcome of this internal 24 meeting will be discussed with the petitioner.
25 The Petition Review Board typically NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 2
Senior Executive' Service level at NRC.
It has a 3
Petition
- Manager, and a
Petition Review Board 4
Coordinator.
Other members of the board are 5
determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 6
the information in the petition request.
At this 7
- time, I would like to introduce the board.
8 I am Ted Quay, the Petition Review Board 9
Chairman.
10 James Kim is the Petition Manager for the 11 petition under discussion today.
12 Tanya Mensah is the Office Petition Review 13 Board Coordinator.
14 Other technical staff includes Tom Setzer 15 from Region 1, Division of Reactor Projects.
As 16 described in our process, the NRC staff may ask 17 clarifying questions in order to better understand the 18 petitioner's presentation and to reach a reasoned 19 decision whether to accept or reject the petitioner's 20 request for review under the 2.206 process.
.21 I would like to summarize the scope of the 22 petition under consideration, and the NRC activities 23 to date.
On January 1 2 th,
- 2010, Mr.
Mulligan 24 submitted to the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding 25 tritium leakage at the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Plant.
2 In his request, Mr.
Mulligan requested 3
that, one, the radioactive leak into the environment 4
of Vermont Yankee be immediately stopped, and Vermont 5
Yankee be immediately shut down, and all leaking casks 6
be isolated.
7
- Two, Vermont Yankee disclose their 8
preliminary root-cause analysis and the NRC release 9
their preliminary investigative report on this before 10 plant start-up.
11 We'd like to allow NRC to discuss the NRC 12 activities to date.
On January 2 0 th, the petitioner 13 requested to address the Petition Review Board prior 14 to its initial meeting and requested.time to prepare 15 supplemental information for the Board's 16 consideration.
17 As a reminder for all phone participants, 18 please identify yourself if you make any remarks, as 19 this will help us with the preparation of the meeting 20 transcript that will be made publicly available.
21 Thank you.
22 At this time, Mr.
Mulligan, 'I'd like to 23 turn it over to you to provide any information you 24 believe the Petition Review Board should consider as 25 part of its decision.
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additional information to the Petition Review Board.
2 You may go ahead, Mr. Mulligan.
3 MR.
MULLIGAN:
Hello, I'm Mike Mulligan.
4 And how do I
sound?
DO I
sound all right?
Can 5
everybody hear me?
6 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
Okay here in headquarters.
7 MR.
SETZER:
Okay here in the Region, 8
Mike.
9 MR.
MULLIGAN:
I don't have to go louder, 10 or softer, or anything like that?
This is fine?
11 MR.
SETZER:
- Yes, this is fine.
Thank 12 you.
13 MR.
MULLIGAN:
Let,me --
like I asked the 14 last time I had a 2.206, I requested that all internal 15
-- you know, we're in democracy, and we have President
)
16 Obama at the end of the week talk about making him and 17 Washington speak for the people, especially the little 18 people, and stuff like that.
19 So, you
- know, I
request that all 20 deliberations, all internal deliberations be recorded 21 and be, you know -- like I had last time, I think that 22 should be a new process with the 2.206 Petition Review 23 Board to be fully transparent, and enter --
you know, 24 we're supposed to be entering the new Obama era of 25 openness and transparency.
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There's a lot of different ideas I have 2
for trying to make the agency more accountable to the 3
communities.
4 You know, the Petition Review Board is 5
supposed to make a
reasonable
- decision, but the 6
problem is and I know you guys are factual-based 7
and evidence-based -- the problem has always been, how 8
can you make, you know --
you asked me for factual 9
information.
Everybody knows that I have always had 10 very little information to, you know -- what's ever in 11 the media, and what's ever on the internet site, and 12 I have talked to Miss --
NRC officials and stuff like 13 that.
14 But most of the information has been very 15 sparse, and stuff like that.
'So that's always been my 16 hurdle, and stuff like that.
So the Petition Review 17 Board says, I want to make a reasonable decision about 18 my petition, but everybody knows before I even open my 19
- mouth, I am severely limited to the information that 20 I have, and that's essentially the problem with all 21 petitions is that, the game is, that we're provided --
22 we're given so little information, through the source 23 either through the media, it's very limited, or 24 through the NRC
- site, it's very limited.
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by result of internal deliberations be recorded and 2
available for the public to see what's going on.
3 I just want to know -- want you to know, 4
Saturday I was called by some of my neighbors, and 5
they said that --
what's all that noise going on at 6
Vermont Yankee?
And it was probably around 2 p.m.,
7 and I went over to the river and listened and stuff, 8
and evidently the well-drilling machine was somewhere 9
on Vermont Yankee property.
That's probably two to 7
10 three miles away, and the noise was quite loud.
It 11 was very --
it was extremely loud, even at such a far 12 distance away.
13 And I called up the safety line and asked 14 that somebody take a look at that and make sure, you 15 know, there's a lot of issues with that --
if there's 16 any kind of alarms, or fire
- alarms, or inside the 17 turbine building, or I don't know if the control room 18 was
- involved, as far as being a
more noisy 19 environment, you know.
20 A fire brigade could have been outside and 21 not be able to communicate, and stuff.
There's a lot 22 of communications issue with all that noise.
And you 23 know I wasn't there, but there was a concern that 24 there was so much noise with the well-drilling 25 equipment that it was a safety concern.
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So far, it looks like the NRC's having 2
two different teams coming up.
One is a tritium -
3 you're going investigate the tritium sampling 4
program, you know, how does Vermont Yankee measure 5
the tritium and that stuff.
6 And then there's another one that's 7
your --
you're'going over the re-licensing issues 8
with all the pipes, or the pipes related to the 9
radwaste pipes --
whatever pipes, AOG pipes that 10 are associated with the leak.
11 But I don't see, you know, anybody 12 having any kind of an investigation of,
- like, 13 where does the tritium -- how does the tritium get 14 produced, and how is the tritium mitigated?
What 15 are the, you know, what are the ways that you 16 could minimize the production of tritium, so even 17 if you do have a leak, it would be minimized?
18 Another concern is a
new one 19 developing --
is the idea that a plant might fear 20 being permanently shut down.
And so they don't 21 want to shut down.
You know, they say, well, 22
- jeez, if they shut us down, they won't allow us 23 back up again, so there's a pressure on, there's -
24 I think, it's an abnormal pressure on plants in 25 Vermont Yankee's situation, that there might be an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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inhibition to appropriately shut down when they're 2
supposed to.
Or, you know, if there's a safety 3
concern for something like that, and I wish people 4
would be aware of that.
5 From what I've
- seen, the NRC 6
commissioners and the chairman, I mean there is 7
I don't think the United States has they 8
essentially have --
I think that the chairman is 9
democratically inspired.
He got there through, 10 you know, the Democrats wanted him, Harry Reid --
11 and what --
however he got in there --
got to be 12
- chairman, you know, I think the Democrats were 13 involved.
14 We know that there was two other 15 commissioners, maybe three, that are going to be 16 appointed by President Obama and stuff.
So, I
17
- mean, President Obama has had an unprecedented 18 opportunity to shape the NRC commissioners.
19 What I see in the last year is, you 20
- know, Obama came in to change Washington, to --
21 he's going to talk by the end of the week about 22 changing -- making Washington work for the little 23 guy and speak for the little guy and stuff like 24 that.
What I found with the NRC is since Obama 25 came into office, it's a lot of people are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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frustrated that Washington isn't speaking for the 2
little
- guy, and we find with the NRC 3
commissioners, there's been less communication, 4
that there's been a lot of garbled communication 5
and that there's been no revolution as far as the 6
ways of the NRC.
And so we have a, you know, a
7 concern about that, that it hasn't turned out the 8
way we thought it would.
9 We tried to give you an opportunity 10 to, you know, to get your bearings and stuff like 11 that, and we're out a year.
And basically NRC is 12 operating in the same way it's always operated at, 13 or even worse, because there's a fear of --
for 14 some reason that I that we can't understand.
15 And so, I mean, there's a concern there, that the 16 NRC is not working for the communities and the 17 little people.
18 We noticed that Palisades just 19 recently, as an example, in January 2007, they had 20 license renewal.
By September
- 2007, the NRC 21 discovered --
we think an employee spoke up and 22 brought the: attention to the
- NRC, so it's 23 different than the NRC discovering it.
We don't 24 know the full story, but there was a discovery 25 that the fuel racks and the fuel assemblies, some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, N.W.
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of them were swollen and you couldn't remove --
2 you couldn't take out the fuel assemblies.
And it 3
later developed into that it was a
reactivity 4
problem with these swollen assemblies and stuff.
5 And so what we're concerned about, is how did that 6
get by re-licensing?
7 If re-licensing happened in January 8
2007 and we start discovering this stuff in 9
September of 2007, that's only six months, or 10 less, or about six months.
I mean, how did that 11 get by re-licensing?
And, you know, it gets down 12 to the problem where we're wondering if there's 13 something wrong with re-licensing.
14 Oyster Creek is basically the same 15 question.
They get re-licensed and two weeks 16 after that, they start having tritium leaks.
Two 17 tritium leaks, and stuff -- we're not I don't 18 have all the information on that.
But again, 19 that's the idea that something's wrong with re-20 licensing.
21 And it's suspicious that these kinds 22 of problems that have been around for a lot of 23 years with the fuel racks, and with the tritium 24 issue with Oyster Creek, and now potentially with 25 Vermont
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radwaste piping and AOG piping, that this wasn't 2
picked up and corrected before you know, during 3
the re-licensing problem --
re-licensing process.
4 So, you know, I mean, you would think 5
that these guys would admit up, we've got a
6 problem with this right now, we're going to fix it 7
before we get re-licensed.
And there's a feeling 8
that these licensees aren't stepping forward and 9
admitting what their problem are --
is or known 10 problems with the plant, and they wait to open 11 their mouths, or they trip over themselves, after 12 re-licensing.
13 And we think that's something that is 14 a big problem.
There's credibility issues there, 15 you know, and truthfulness and all sorts of stuff 16 like that.
17 I was a little involved with Florida 18 Power and Light, and basically how that how 19 this problem developed over the last few years, 20 essentially a lot of employees got discouraged 21 with talking about safety problems at their plant.
22 The Florida Power and Light was not spending 23 enough
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into some media stories and stuff like that.
And 2
then that cascaded into problems with the Public 3
Service Board and the credibility of the Public 4
Service Board.
5 And they' started questioning, you 6
know, credibility issues, and then out popped the 7
text message issues where the Public Service Board
-8 was talking with Florida Power and Light, and from 9
that point on, they asked some to leave --
Public 10 Service Board people to leave, and the governor 11 got involved, and they waited on -- until the next 12 group of Public Service Board people came on board 13 to make a decision on the new nuclear power plants 14 at Florida Power and Light.
15 And it was dropped.
It was frozen and 16 stuff.
So we, you know, there's that path that 17 these credibility problems take.
It starts
- out, 18 frustration with the employees at the plant, and 19 they can't explain --
nobody wants to listen to 20 them, and everybody's got excuses to not listen to 21 them.
22 And people start paying attention, and 23 then, you know, other things pop out, and the next 24 thing you know, a ten-billion dollar plant is 25 cancelled.
It seems that nobody has --
they'd be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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losing faith in the
- NRC, and that's where it 2
starts because the NRC's supposed to stop that 3
stuff when it
- emerges, that they're supposed to 4
nip it off in the bud and make everybody do the 5
right thing.
6 And if it happens early, then the 7
industry is allowed to continue with existence.
8 And potentially, there could have been those new 9
plants in there.
But once you get into these 10 issues of people telling half-truths, and talking 11 out of both sides of your mouth and stuff like 12 that, people tend to scrutinize you more, and they 13 pick up more errors, and who knows what the end is 14 on that, you know.
15 I
tend to blame it on the
- NRC, 16 actually, were they not doing, really, their job.
17 They might be following the rules, but there's got 18 to be a higher calling than following the rules or 19 policies.
20 The rules and policies don't do 21 anything or analyzing, we do that upstairs in our 22 head.
So we've got the rules in front of us, 23 we're supposed to follow it, but we always got to 24 be a part of us that are above the rules and laws.
25 Does this make sense, does --
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serving is it serving the community or 2
individual of the community, and stuff like that?
3 I see a lot of this mechanical rules 4
stuff with the NRC, excuse not to disclose what's 5
going on, excuse not to -- withhold information in 6
one way or another, not to show us, to give us the 7
assurance that the NRC is,
- well, watching over 8
Vermont Yankee and stuff.
Everybody loses 9
credibility.
10 And essentially we 'see the same kind 11 of a problem with Vermont Yankee today as we do 12 with Florida Power and Light and even Oyster 13 Creek.
And for one thing, the essence of --
we 14 don't know what they told the NRC as far as in re-15 licensing.
We'll have to wait and see what that 16 turns out to.
17 But then it's exactly the same thing.
18 The vice president goes into a testimony, and they 19 talk out of both sides of their mouths.
It's 20 interpreted as lying or misrepresenting the facts.
21 Everybody looks closer at him, starts scrutinizing 22
- him, and scrutinizing, and scrutinizing the 23 agency.
People question if the 24 agency is honest and stuff, and who knows what the 25 outcome is going to be of this?
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I think it's, the root cause -
I hate to say root 2
cause because there's never one -- but is the NRC, 3
if they would have been doing their job and 4
rooting these problems out beforehand when they 5
were small, we wouldn't get to the point where --
6 I think we're going to lose Vermont Yankee because 7
of credibility issues and honesty issues.
I think 8
that's what this is all about.
9 It's really a
I
- mean, I
always 10 thought that it wasn't really a technical issue, 11 and stuff like other than not enough resources 12 and stuff like that.
You know, the issue of 13 honesty and trust and stuff like that.
14 And I think you're going to end up 15 shutting the plant down because nobody trusts the 16 NRC or Vermont Yankee or Entergy talking about 17 these issues and --
I mean, I think that's what 18 the heart of the problem is and stuff.
I tell 19 everybody, two or three years ago, Vermont Yankee 20 had an open door to get licensed, and probably 21 nobody was going to be able to challenge them 22 before the tower issue and stuff like that, you 23 know.
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questioning their activities.
I don't think the 2
NRC's been doing their job with it and stuff.
And 3
here we sit, at the precipice of closing down the 4
- plant, and I you know, I
don't think it's all 5
Vermont Yankee's fault and stuff.
I think the 6
agency hasn't been doing --
you know, like I say, 7
the agency has to do more than follow the rules, 8
or follow the procedures, or follow the policies 9
and stuff like that.
There's got to be something 10 more than that.
11 And the essence of, you know, we have 12 to maintain our credibility over the plant.
We 13 have to maintain Entergy's credibility.
That's 14 the only way these power plants are going to 15 survive.
If the credibility collapsed, then who 16 knows what's going to happen?
So that's my 17 concern about that, trying to explain why we got 18 to where we are.
19 As far as some issues on tritium 20 production --
now this is some of the stuff
- that, 21 again, I picked up on the internet.
You know, I'd 22 like to know what the tritium concentration in the 23 vessel has been on average, over the last twenty 24 years.
You know, I don't not every second, but 25 you know, an idea of what are the trends that have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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taken place, with the up-rate, and any other kind 2
of issues.
3 An example would be the main condenser 4
leakage, and stuff -- probably might increase the 5
need for corrosion chemicals, or hydrogen stuff.
6 So that's one thing we don't know --
I don't know 7
about --
the control room --
the control blade --
8 the control rod blade might be leaking boron into 9
the coolant, and has it varied?
So we have no 10 idea if that might be occurring.
11 That would --
the boron would, and 12 higher tritium -- have issues with the processing 13 standby boron injection --
I can't remember what 14 the name of it is, the big boron tank that they --
15 with the injection valves, that they inject boron 16 in.
Have they been sloppy with getting the boron 17 in radwaste?
And they've got more --
they've got 18 excess boron in the core, or in the vessel.
19 Hydrogen chemistry, you're injecting 20 hydrogen into the vessel.
When it gets activated 21 by a neutron, it ends up being tritium.
So, you 22
- know, is hydrogen chemistry part of the problem?
23 Does that develop because the main condenser has 24 leakage?
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concentration in the reactor turbine building 2
plenum, the condensate: what is the, what is the 3
concentration on that?
4 We noticed a
good thing with the 5
Vermont State Department of Health, and we're 6
wondering why the NRC doesn't do something like 7
it, and that would be the, they have --
they --
on 8
their internet site, they have a day-by-day update 9
of the problems with tritium with Vermont Yankee.
10 We're surprised that --
you know, the 11 old school was, you were a document agency, when -
12
- how this developed, and you shared documents and' 13 microfiche, and that's how all these delays in 14 inspections --
you know, you have an inspection, 15 it takes three months for you to go --
to get out 16 the inspection results and stuff --
it's just too 17 long.
It's too long, and it's non-participatory.
18 So, you know, we're trying to think of 19 ways that people would be participate more 20 easily.
And that would be to go to the root of --
21 like the Department of Health, and have an updated 22 daily issues -- maybe an opportunity for people to 23 question the NRC people that are knowledgeable.
24
- And, you know, and they write down 25 their results and stuff like that, and maybe that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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would
- help, because
- the, bottom line is 2
credibility.
The only way you guys are going to 3
operate nuclear power plants is to maintain 4
credibility.
You won't operate nuclear plants if 5
your credibility collapses.
6 You
- know, we always wondered why, 7
like, in inspection reports and stuff like that, 8
why can't people start looking into the new world 9
of the internet and stuff?
Why can't individuals 10 be involved with the inspections?
11 Maybe the inspection is kind of 12 written out on a day-by-day basis --
this is what 13 we got, this is what we found -- and allow people 14 in the community to ask, you know, questions and 15 stuff so you would kind of write the inspection 16 report along with the public.
17 Then you'd write a final report when 18 it's all over with.
You know, so you could answer 19 some of the people's concerns as the report is 20 written, instead of being stiff-armed at the end 21 with the NRC's interpretation of it.
22 I forgot to mention, I made a request 23 that I be allowed to go with the --
to be allowed 24 to come on-site and be a visitor, or accompany the 25 NRC on their inspection results on their NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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inspections of Vermont Yankee, so I'd be allowed 2
to come with them on-site, and go around with 3
them, and observe what I see, and be able to talk 4
- about, you
- know, what I
see and my 5
interpretations.
And I mean I
don't want to 6
get to I
wouldn't want to be too much in 7
everybody's way and stuff like that,
- but, you 8
- know, that would be somebody in the public, not 9
associated with Vermont Yankee.
10 Maybe even have --
be a considered a 11
- negative, but somebody that would would be 12 contrary to Entergy and the NRC.
And stuff like 13 that.
You know, if there --
I always thought if 14 there was more participation with people like me, 15 and other interested people we were allowed to be 16 in the information stream, where the NRC wouldn't 17 have a natural inclination to challenge certain 18 things, or the Entergy, but us guys, we would ask 19 stupid questions and stuff like that. You'd have 20 a better opportunity to head these things off 21 before they become big, like at Vermont Yankee, or 22 Oyster Creek, or Florida Power and Light and stuff 23 like that.
24 We basically think this the root of 25 all of this is not having enough transparency, not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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having enough community participation.
The 2
essence of the NRC using any excuse they can think 3
of, whether it's proprietary, or security, any 4
excuse far and above what is necessary to --
with 5
secrecy and withholding information and being 6
scared to risk saying something that you're not 7
supposed to, taking the easy way out, and just not 8
divulging information.
We think those things are 9
destroying the industry, actually, and we wish the 10 NRC would become more open.
11 As far as why should you shut down 12 Vermont Yankee, I think the example of the AOG 13 piping drain.
And I
think the issue of the 14 corroded pipe -- that AOG pipe is easily corroded.
15 I don't know what the condition of the pipe is in 16 there, but there seems to be issues with it and 17 stuff.
And the safe and conservative thing would 18 be --
there seems to be water underneath the pipe, 19 or pools of water underneath the pipe.
And the 20 safe and conservative thing would be, shut down 21 the plant and replace the pipe.
And any other 22 pipe that's I
- mean, imagine this is a
new 23 plant, and they had issues like this.
I mean, 24 there would be no --
you know, they wouldn't want 25 to, they'd have such a bright future in front of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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them, they wouldn't want to risk alienating the 2
public.
3 So they'd probably shut down the plant 4
and fix everything.
But you've got a plant now 5
that's at the end of its life
- here, and 6
politically sensitive, and stuff like so 7
they're afraid to do what they would need to do 8
and stuff.
There's a concern about that.
9 So, there's that already there's 10 that seems to be that pool of water underneath 11 the pipe, and the pipe is corroded.
We don't know 12 if there'sta hole in the pipe, but it needs to be 13 replaced anyway.
So the safe and conservative 14 thing would be to shut the plant down and replace 15 the pipe, and while you're down there, you can do 16 the inspections on all the other pipes and stuff 17 like that.
18 What we found trouble, with the NRC, 19 is that they have to have absolute you're 20 fanatics on evidence and proof and stuff like 21 that, from our side.
A lot of times you don't 22 need the utility, just needs --
on their whim they 23 can say something without much evidence behind it.
24 And you accept it.
25 With me and stuff like that, you need NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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a lot of evidence, and make sure it's in the 2
rules, and all that sort of stuff.
And it's kind 3
of like ideological in nature.
4 A lot of this we do because it's 5
ideological in nature, a lot of rules, senseless 6
ideology and rules.
You're a higher status and 7
one guy's this status and then the other guy's 8
this status, and we're not going to listen to him 9
because he has a lesser status.
Maybe he has a 10 better idea and stuff.
11 So a lot of this problem we think is 12 related to an ideology at a lot of these new 13 plants that have become obsolete.
And that in 14 itself is a huge problem.
15 So, you know, we don't understand --
16 it's like you have to have absolute proof where 17 that A0G pipe is leaking, absolute proof.
But you 18 don't want to go digging down there to find the 19 proof and stuff like that.
As of right now, I
20 don't know what's going on.
But you need absolute 21 proof in order to force that plant to shut down.
22 And you know most of us don't operate that way.
23 We have --
we use a lot less of a standard, you 24 know.
There's a pool of water underneath there, 25 and the pipe is corroded, and, you know, there's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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children on the sidewalks, when we're in school 2
- area, so we slow down, we're conservative, we 3
don't want to take unnecessarily -- unnecessarily 4
-- risk.
5 That's the kind of attitude I think 6
the agency should use, instead of having these --
7 you
- know, we can't do anything unless they 8
absolutely cross a rule or a violation.
We don't 9
have absolute proof.
I think you have to operate 10 on a much higher level.
11 You have to use a lot more neurons in 12 your head than just the rules and stuff.
And we 13 think that this business with the AOG pipe is in 14 that area.
15 Why can't you just be conservative and 16 shut down that plant and replace that pipe?
Why 17 can't you bypass why can't you bypass that 18 pipe, you know, make another line next to it and 19 stuff?
But we don't have any information.
We're 20 not kept up to date with what's going on at the 21 plant and stuff.
So we think you have enough 22 evidence that if you don't have enough 23
- evidence, then you should dig that pipe 24 everything out underneath that pipe and make sure 25 that it's not leaking and there's not an excessive
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30 1
amount of corrosion that will be a threat to us in 2
the future and stuff like that.
3 So, I
- mean, it's an excuse, not 4
digging out that pipe and looking at it.
It's an 5
excuse not to shut down that plant and stuff.
6 That's what we're worried about.
And then you 7
back up and say, well, you know, we don't have the 8
evidence that that's where the problem is.
9
- Well, this evidence thing is you
- know, I
10 understand about being accused of something you 11 didn't do, and what do you have what kind of 12 evidence you have to have against you and stuff 13 like that.
I understand.
It's not like I haven't 14 felt it myself.
15 But to live in a democracy, you have 16 to accept less than 100-percent proof.
You have 17 to have we have to accept to live in a
18 community, we have to accept people nosing around 19 and occasionally raising, you know, the back of 20 our ears and stuff.
21 We have to accept that to be part of 22 a community.
We have to accept the police nosing 23 around, and checking on us, and all that sort of 24 stuff.
, We I don't think we --
you know, a
25 police can operate in a realm where, you know, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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they have to have 100-percent proof to do 2
everything.
They have to do to protect the 3
community.
I do, you know.
4 So
- they, Vermont Public Health 5
indicates on their site that there's ground-6 penetrating radar that indicates saturated water.
7 I mean, why isn't that enough proof to get them to 8
replace that pipe?
Big deal if they make a
9
- mistake, you know.
They're going to need to 10 replace that pipe anyway.
11 I mean, what's, what's --
I don't 12 why do they have to, why do you have to have --
to 13 be absolutely correct all the time?
Why can't you 14 be 90 percent correct?
And if you make a mistake, 15 then you just say --
- well, you just shrug your 16 shoulders and say, that's the price of doing 17 business.
That's the price of being conservative.
18 And we're willing to pay that price.
19 I,
I don't know
- actually, I
20 that's probably all I
have to say that with 21 that with this.
I hope that if anybody's got 22 any question, they ask me it or something.
23 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
Well, thank you, Mike.
24 This is Ted Quay again.
At this time, does the 25 staff here at headquarters have any questions for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1
Mr. Mulligan?
2 I see none here.
What about Region 1, 3
do you have any questions for Mike?
4 MR. JACKSON:
No, we have no questions 5
from Region 1.
6 MR.
SETZER:
No questions, thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
Okay.
8 MR.
MULLIGAN:
Can I make one more --
9 one more thing to make sure that I got it right?
10 I'm making a request to go on-site and go and be 11 a
accompanying --
to go with the NRC on-site 12 and to be an observer of the inspections, and 13 stuff associated with the tritium water issue.
14 I mean, I'm making a request, I don't 15 know what you guys are going to think of that, but 16 that's 17 CHAIRMAN QUAY: To state that request, 18 it would have to go through the Region, Mike.
19 Okay?
20 MR.
MULLIGAN:
- Well, I
21 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
Is there anybody from 22 the Licensee on the line?
23 MR. DEVINCENTIS:
Yes there is, and we 24 have no comments.
25 CHAIRMAN QUAY:
Okay.
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33 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
- Well, Mr.
- Mulligan, I want to thank you for taking the time to provide the NRC staff with clarifying information you submitted.
Before we
- close, does the court reporter need any additional information for the meeting transcript?
COURT REPORTER:
Let's see.
I just have a few questions.
Can we go off the record?
CHAIRMAN QUAY:
Sure.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 3:19 p.m.)
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Vermont Yankee Name of Proceeding:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition of Michael Mulligan Docket Number:
50-271 Location:
(teleconference) were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
Samuel Wojack 61 Official Reporter Neal R.
Gross & Co.,
Inc.
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