ML21232A235
| ML21232A235 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Indian Point  |
| Issue date: | 08/20/2021 |
| From: | Reactor Decommissioning Branch |
| To: | |
| Karl Sturzebecher, 301-415-8534 | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML21232A230 | List: |
| References | |
| EPID L-2021-LRO-0031, NRC-1585 | |
| Download: ML21232A235 (147) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Public Meeting on Holtec Indian Point Post-shutdown Decommissioning Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: Tarrytown, New York Date: Thursday, July 29, 2021 Work Order No.: NRC-1585 Pages 1-146 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 1 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2 + + + + +
3 PUBLIC MEETING ON HOLTEC INDIAN POINT 4 POST-SHUTDOWN DECOMMISSIONING 5 + + + + +
6 THURSDAY, 7 JULY 29, 2021 8 + + + + +
9 The Meeting convened at the Sleepy 10 Hollow Hotel & Conference Center, 455 South 11 Broadway, Tarrytown, New York, at 6:00 p.m. EDT, 12 Brett Klukan, Facilitator, presiding.
13 PRESENT 14 BRETT KLUKAN, Regional Counsel, Facilitator 15 ANTHONY DIMITRIADIS, Branch Chief, NRC Region I 16 RICH GUZMAN, Office of Nuclear Reactor 17 Regulation 18 RAY LORSON, Deputy Regional Administrator, NRC 19 Region I 20 RICHARD TURTIL, Senior Financial Analyst, Office 21 of Nuclear Material Safety and Safeguards 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 KATHERINE WARNER, Senior Health Physicist, NRC 2 Region I 3 BRUCE A. WATSON, CHP, Chief, Reactor 4 Decommissioning Branch, Office of Nuclear 5 Material Safety and Safeguards 6
7 ALSO PRESENT 8 ANDREA STERDIS, Holtec 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 6:05 p.m.
3 MR. KLUKAN: So let me go through some 4 quick introductions or quick intro remarks to try to 5 make up for the little bit of time we lost. My name 6 is Brett Klukan. I'm normally the regional counsel 7 for Region I of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory 8 Commission. But tonight, as I have in past years, 9 will be serving as the facilitator for this meeting.
10 As will be discussed more during the NRC 11 staff's initial presentation, the purpose of this 12 meeting is to receive public comments on the IPEC, 13 or the Indian Point Energy Center Post-Shutdown 14 Decommissioning Activities Report, or PSDAR. In 15 order to accommodate as many interested members of 16 the public as possible during the ongoing COVID-19 17 public health emergency, members of the public, in 18 addition to participating in person, were given the 19 alternative option of participating remotely via 20 teleconference.
21 I now would like to summarize the COVID 22 precautions being implemented for the meeting 23 tonight. Based on Governor Cuomo's July 15th, 2021 24 announcement regarding the lifting of COVID 25 restrictions, it is the NRC's understanding that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1 there are no state-imposed COVID restrictions 2 currently in effect for a meeting of this size. It 3 is also the NRC's understanding there are, likewise, 4 no locally-imposed COVID-19 restrictions that would 5 be applicable to the conduct of this meeting.
6 For your awareness, NRC staff and 7 contractors in attendance, if unvaccinated, are 8 required to follow the NRC's Workplace Safety 9 Implementation Plan requirements for COVID-19 10 precautions, including the use of masks and physical 11 distancing. The Centers for Disease Control and 12 Prevention recommend that unvaccinated persons 13 continue to wear masks and physically distance when 14 attending indoor events. Yesterday, the CDC also 15 announced a recommendation that vaccinated persons 16 wear masks in public indoor settings in areas of 17 substantial or high transmission.
18 As of the date of this meeting, as of 3 19 p.m. this afternoon, Westchester County now has a 20 substantial rate of COVID-19 transmission based on 21 data published by the CDC. As such, in keeping with 22 the CDC's recommendations, which the NRC follows and 23 applies to its own staff, all NRC staff and 24 contractors in attendance will be wearing masks 25 during this meeting.
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5 1 NRC staff and contractors are also 2 required to self-screen for COVID-19 symptoms prior 3 to attending this meeting. For your convenience, 4 the chairs marked with green stickers are six feet 5 apart from each other. Sanitizing wipes and hand 6 sanitizer is also located at the public speaker 7 microphone for your use.
8 For those of you attending the meeting 9 in person, on the registration table just outside 10 the room there's a sign-up list for public speakers.
11 When you registered to speak, you should have 12 received a ticket, the other half of which we 13 collected into a container at the registration desk.
14 The speaking order will be determined by the numbers 15 pulled from this container, the intent of which is 16 that the speaking order be at random.
17 Note that we may also have individuals 18 on the bridge line requesting to speak during the 19 public comment portion of the meeting. If that is 20 the case, then I will incorporate those individuals 21 into the speaker queue in the following manner. Out 22 of deference to those attending in person, after 23 every three in-person speakers, we will call upon a 24 speaker on the phone. I will provide later, after 25 the NRC's initial presentation, instructions for how NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1 members of the public participating in the meeting 2 via the teleconference can enter the speaker queue 3 after, again, after the NRC's opening presentation.
4 For your awareness, again, this meeting 5 is being transcribed. The transcriptionist is 6 sitting at the end of the table. So in light of 7 that, I would ask, when it is your turn to speak, 8 please identify yourself. I would also ask that 9 people not speak over each other.
10 A few minor housekeeping matters, and 11 we'll get underway. The bathrooms are just down the 12 hallway. The exits are to either side of the foyer.
13 While cameras are permitted, please try not to 14 obstruct the view of other audience members. And if 15 you would be so kind at this time to please silence 16 your cell phones.
17 And with that, finally, I'd like to turn 18 it over to Bruce Watson to begin the NRC's 19 presentations. Thank you.
20 MR. WATSON: Well, good evening. Thanks 21 for coming. I hope you can hear me clearly through 22 the mask. This is kind of an impromptu change which 23 Brett has announced at 3:00 came into effect for 24 federal workers. But, again, thanks for coming, and 25 we're happy that you came here tonight for the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 1 opportunity to provide us comments on the Indian 2 Point Post-Shutdown Decommissioning Activities 3 Report that was submitted to the NRC.
4 We are required to hold an in-person 5 meeting, and so we chose this date a couple of 6 months ago due to the relaxation of the restrictions 7 in the State of New York and the local vicinity.
8 So, while we haven't held an in-person meeting in a 9 while, I want to reiterate that we have been 10 available to the public. Region 1 deputy, Region 1 11 administrator, Ray Lorson, held the annual 12 assessments meeting. It was a virtual meeting to 13 review the final operational phase of Unit 3 in the 14 past year. And also Rich Guzman to my right and I 15 participated in one of the Cortlandt County 16 concerned or interested citizens task force meetings 17 to discuss the license transfer process.
18 So with that, we're going to go ahead 19 and go to the slides. As I said, I am Bruce Watson.
20 I'm chief of the Reactor Decommissioning Branch, and 21 I'm from headquarters in the Office of Nuclear 22 Material Safety and Safeguards. My branch is 23 responsible for the licensing and oversight, 24 licensing oversight of the facility, and so my group 25 will take care of all the licensing actions once the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 1 plant is transferred to us, the site is transferred 2 to us, from the Office of Nuclear Reactor 3 Regulation.
4 So let's go to the next slide, please.
5 Decommissioning is not new. We have terminated the 6 licenses at ten sites, ten power reactor sites.
7 There are currently, though, 26 power reactors in 8 our decommissioning program. Seventeen of those are 9 in active decommissioning, and that includes now the 10 three Indian Point units. The PSDAR from Holtec 11 basically says they are going into active 12 decommissioning, and so they started to transition 13 the plant. Unit 2 is already well along in the 14 transition of preparing it for decommissioning; and 15 Unit 3 is an earlier phase, having just shut down.
16 I want to point out that there's also 17 nine plants in SAFSTOR, which is the condition Unit 18 1 was in since it shut down in 1974. But it is 19 going to be also going into the process of active 20 decommissioning by the licensee Holtec.
21 There are currently seven plants that 22 have announced that they're shutting down, and so 23 we're waiting to see, when they do shut down, if 24 that really occurs. Four of them are in Illinois, 25 one is in Chicago, and two in California. So we're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 expecting to hear that, news on those as time 2 progresses.
3 Also, I wanted to mention that we plan, 4 we anticipate, I'm going to use the word anticipate 5 because it's mainly dependent on the licensee to 6 provide us with all the information needed. But we 7 are anticipating terminating the licenses at four 8 plants in the coming year. So we're expecting to 9 terminate the licenses at Zion 1 and 2, the Lacrosse 10 plant in Iowa, and Humboldt Bay in California. So 11 our numbers will be reduced, and that will bring our 12 total number of power reactors that have completed 13 decommissioning, up to 14 that have completed 14 decommissioning.
15 In the picture here is Maine Yankee 16 before decommissioning; and then, of course, that's 17 the picture of Maine Yankee and the only thing 18 remaining is the spent fuel dry storage facility.
19 Next slide, please. The NRC's mission 20 is to ensure that the decommissioning is conducted 21 safely and securely until the license is terminated.
22 NRC safety oversight will continue with licensing 23 activities and inspections until the license is 24 terminated. So the key message here I want you to 25 realize is we're not going away. We're going to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 here as long as there is radioactive material under 2 the license.
3 So with that, the site has been working 4 on transferring from the reactor oversight program 5 to the Inspection Manual Chapter 2561, which is the 6 Reactor Decommissioning Program, Inspection Program.
7 And so we have the lead inspector here tonight with 8 us at the table, Katherine Warner, and she's going 9 to be available to answer questions also.
10 The other thing I want to point out is 11 we are continuing to have the resident inspector 12 there until the end of August. So we have kind of 13 duplicate actions going on at the same time.
14 Next slide, please. On May 11th, 15 Entergy certified permanent cessation of operations 16 of Unit 3 and the permanent removal of the fuel from 17 the reactor. And, of course, Unit 2 was certified a 18 year ago. So what does that mean? Well, it means 19 that when they terminate, make these two 20 certifications, they are no longer authorized to 21 removal the fuel from the spent fuel and put it back 22 in the reactor and operate the reactor. In order to 23 do that, they would have to apply for a new 24 operating license. So, in essence, they are in 25 permanent shutdown and the only thing left to do is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 1 decommission the site.
2 The Holtec PSDAR, or Post-Shutdown 3 Decommissioning Activities Report, was submitted to 4 the NRC as supplemental information to the license 5 transfer application. And it was submitted to us 6 December 19, 2019, so it's been out in the public 7 domain for quite a while.
8 So with that, I just want to point out 9 that our resident inspector, the picture on the top 10 right, were there to observe the final shutdown of 11 Unit 3 and that, you know, it was done safely and 12 the plant continues to be in a safe condition, 13 having been defueled.
14 Next slide, please. The PSDAR is 15 reviewed by the NRC staff. It is a report to the 16 NRC staff. It covers, basically, three things. It 17 covers the site-specific schedule at a high level, 18 which tells us what direction the licensee is going 19 to go with the decommissioning. It also provides 20 the financial information on how to ensure that, to 21 demonstrate to us that there's reasonable assurance 22 that they have adequate funding for the 23 decommissioning, to conduct the decommissioning and 24 complete it within the funding requirements. And it 25 also verifies that the environmental situation is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 1 going to not be impacted.
2 So after they submit the certifications 3 of permanent removal from the fuel from the reactor, 4 the decommissioning can start, as long as they stay 5 within the operating license, the plant's license.
6 And also the decommissioning activities must not 7 endanger the public health and safety or the 8 environment.
9 Next slide, please. This is a high-10 level summary of what the PSDAR says. It basically 11 says that the spent fuel will be transferred into 12 dry cask storage by 2024. They expect to complete 13 decommissioning by 2033, and that would be all three 14 plants. I have a typo error, actually my own edit, 15 addition error here, but the trust fund is actually, 16 at the end of 2020, had $2.4 billion in it, not 1.8.
17 So sorry for my quick math, but it's a lot more than 18 I have up here. It's $2.4 billion.
19 And, of course, the PSDAR also concludes 20 that the environmental impacts from the 21 decommissioning will be less than those than when 22 the plant was in operation.
23 The staff began a formal review of the 24 Holtec PSDAR on May 28th, 2021. And this was after 25 the license was amended, making Holtec the new site NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 1 owner of the site. So until that became official, 2 we really couldn't review the PSDAR until that date.
3 So next slide, please. A couple of 4 things I want to talk about here is that we will 5 continue to inspect the plant to ensure the site is 6 decommissioned safely. The NRC will continue to 7 inspect the spent fuel in dry storage to ensure it 8 is safe and secure until it is removed from the 9 site.
10 And, of course, one of the major 11 licensing actions yet to take place is the submittal 12 of the license termination plan. The license 13 termination plan is a very technical document on how 14 the licensee is going to demonstrate to us that they 15 will meet the unrestricted use of the site and allow 16 for the site to be shrunk and license terminated 17 down to the dry fuel storage.
18 Now, what does unrestricted use mean?
19 It means that the owner can use the land for 20 whatever purpose they choose to use it for. It's no 21 longer under NRC control. The only thing that will 22 remain under NRC license will be the spent fuel 23 facility.
24 One of the other things I wanted to 25 mention is that they don't have to submit the LTP NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 until two years before they request license 2 termination, so it may be a while before they do 3 submit the LTP to us. But when they do, we will 4 hold another public meeting. We will solicit public 5 comments on the LTP. And it is a license amendment, 6 so there's also hearing rights for the LTP. And as 7 I said, the LTP is approved as a license amendment, 8 and we will take into account the public comments on 9 that.
10 Next slide, please. Well, hold on. Go 11 back one minute again. Never mind. The picture 12 there was our Region III inspectors at the Zion 13 plant doing surveys to verify that the plant was 14 being cleaned up.
15 Next slide is just a few reminders about 16 this meeting. We are here to listen to your 17 comments on the Indian Point PSDAR. There's a lot 18 of topics we can talk about, technical topics, but 19 we really are here to talk about the PSDAR and hear 20 your comments on those.
21 The NRC staff will do our best to answer 22 your questions. We may not have the answers to 23 everything, but we will listen to your comments and 24 we'll do our best to answer your questions.
25 The meeting is being transcribed. The NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 fellow down here, Dylan, at the end is transcribing 2 the meeting, transcribing the meeting comments and 3 discussions. And it will be made publicly 4 available, and also we'll be publishing a meeting 5 summary that will also be publicly available.
6 Next slide, please. Just another 7 reminder, decommissioning of power reactors is not 8 new in the state of New York. The NRC oversaw the 9 decommissioning of the Shoreham site out on Long 10 Island, and we also provided the oversight and 11 inspection of the State University of New York at 12 Buffalo, the research reactor facility, and that 13 license was terminated a few years ago and is now a 14 green field and able to be reused by the university 15 for whatever purpose they have for that land.
16 The other thing I wanted to mention, at 17 the Shoreham plant, the fuel was transferred to one 18 of the Peach Bottom facilities in Pennsylvania, and 19 so there is no dry fuel storage facility at 20 Shoreham. The fuel was actually used in power 21 operations at another plant.
22 Next slide, please. Besides this public 23 meeting for comments, you can send in your comments 24 by mail. There's an address here for that. This is 25 also in the Federal Register notice. And, of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 1 course, you can always send your comments to the 2 rulemakings.gov, and here's the address for that, 3 the link for that. Be sure when you search the 4 Federal Register notice, the regulations.gov, you 5 search for the docket number ID, which is NRC-2021-6 0125. So you might want to take a note of those.
7 The public comment period is going to be 8 closing on October 22nd of this year. We 9 deliberately left it open greater than 90 days, and, 10 actually, it's 120 days to make sure that we did 11 have ample time for people to get their comments in.
12 So with that, next slide. You can 13 always refer your questions to Neil Sheehan. He's 14 back here in the back. He's from our Office of 15 Public Affairs. Neil's email address is here, along 16 with his phone number. And so Neil is available to 17 answer any follow-up questions or any questions on 18 the Indian Point site that you may have.
19 With that, we'll turn it back over -- I 20 guess we want to do some NRC introductions. Yes.
21 So the group up here, you want to start, Rich?
22 Introductions.
23 MR. GUZMAN: Good evening. My name is 24 Rich Guzman. I'm a senior project manager at NRC 25 headquarters. My branch is going to be supporting NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 Bruce Watson in the reviews of the PSDAR. My firm 2 is responsible for the operating and licensing side, 3 and I look forward to your questions.
4 MS. WARNER: Good evening. My name is 5 Katherine Warner. I'm a senior health physicist 6 with NRC Region I, and I am the lead decommissioning 7 inspector for Indian Point.
8 MR. TURTIL: Good evening. My name is 9 Richard Turtil, a senior financial analyst with NRC 10 at NRC headquarters. And we'll be looking over 11 financial review and financials for the facility.
12 MR. LORSON: Good evening. I'm Ray 13 Lorson, the deputy administrator for the NRC's 14 Region I office.
15 MR. WATSON: And, Tony, do you want to 16 introduce yourself? While Tony is coming up to the 17 mike, over here on the side is Karl Sturzebecher.
18 He will be the decommissioning project manager.
19 He's managing the phone line. And, of course, 20 that's Doug Tifft, our Region I state liaison 21 officer.
22 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Good afternoon. My 23 name is Anthony Dimitriadis. I'm the chief of the 24 Decommissioning, ISFSI, and Reactor Health Physics 25 Branch in Region I.
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18 1 MR. WATSON: And I think, Neil, you've 2 already been introduced. I think that's about it, 3 isn't it? Okay. Brett.
4 MR. KLUKAN: All right. Thanks, Bruce.
5 MR. WATSON: Well, I'll introduce Brett.
6 He already did.
7 MR. KLUKAN: Yes, I introduced myself.
8 So we're not stalled. We're just having some 9 difficulties with the bridge line, so we're kind of 10 stalled. So we're trying to work that out. In the 11 meantime, I'm going to go through the rest of my 12 remarks about how the public comment portion works, 13 and then we'll see where we are at the end of that, 14 okay? I just want to let you know what's happening.
15 So for those of you attending in person, 16 I just want to emphasize that there are no 17 prohibitions against trading your tickets amongst 18 yourselves in the room, okay? Right now, we have 22 19 people in person signed up to speak. However, both 20 individuals, if you are trading tickets back and 21 forth, they have to both be in the room at that 22 time. Someone can't leave and then just donate 23 their ticket to somebody else.
24 Donation of tickets, again, they only 25 can be given to those in person. Obviously, we're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 1 also going to be just having problems with the 2 bridge with trying to do that trade and get the 3 person queued up on the bridge would be very 4 difficult for us, given, particularly, the problems 5 we're already encountering.
6 In addition, if an individual has 7 already spoken during the meeting as a result of 8 someone donating their ticket to them, that 9 individual may donate their own ticket to somebody 10 else, but they may not use that ticket to speak 11 again. What that means is this: you get one shot at 12 the microphone for the first round. Once we've 13 exhausted all the speakers, if we have extra time in 14 the meeting, then people can get up to speak again.
15 At this time, people will be limited to 16 three minutes at the microphone. When your number 17 is called, please queue up to this microphone. You 18 can see that there's hand sanitizer and also hand 19 wipes for you to use. Use them as you will.
20 I will give you some advanced warning of 21 when it is your turn to speak. I will write the 22 numbers in the order in which I pick them on the 23 board, okay? If you are participating in the 24 meeting, I'm going to wait to give instructions 25 regarding the bridge line because I'm not even sure NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1 if they can hear me yet.
2 Again, please limit yourself to three 3 minutes. There is a countdown clock I positioned in 4 the middle of the room. That will count down from 5 three minutes to, you know, when your time runs up.
6 At that time, I will ask you to please conclude your 7 remarks so we can move on to the next speaker. I'd 8 ask that you bundle all of your remarks together and 9 your questions because, once the clock starts, just 10 like in a congressional hearing, I won't stop the 11 clock.
12 PARTICIPANT: You're talking too fast, 13 and it's very hard to hear.
14 MR. KLUKAN: Okay, all right. So we'll 15 back up because I have the time. You get three 16 minutes at the microphone. The clock will start 17 counting down once you've introduced yourself. At 18 that point, the clock won't start until, it will not 19 pause. So if you ask a question and the NRC starts 20 to respond and it's during your three minutes, 21 that's it, all right? So I would suggest you bundle 22 all of your questions together so that you maximize 23 your amount of the time at the microphone. If we 24 have extra time remaining at the end, we will go 25 back through a second round, okay?
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21 1 Everyone understand that? You good?
2 Okay.
3 All right. I would ask, if you have 4 something that you want to give to the NRC, that you 5 hand it to me and I'll bring it up to the table, all 6 right?
7 Basic ground rules. While recognizing 8 that many of you have strongly-held opinions 9 concerning the matters to be discussed this evening, 10 I ask, nonetheless, you adhere to civil decorum and 11 that you, in essence, respect each other. So please 12 do not disrupt each other, just as you would not 13 want to be interrupted while you were speaking.
14 With that said, threatening gestures or 15 statements, under no circumstances, will be no 16 tolerated and will be cause for immediate objection, 17 excuse me, ejection from the meeting by local law 18 enforcement.
19 If you feel that you've been threatened, 20 please let me know, please let one of the NRC 21 security staff know, or please notify a local law 22 enforcement officer at the station at the various 23 corners of the room.
24 Before we begin -- well, let me -- it 25 looks like we're still having problems with the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 1 bridge based on this posture. All right. So we're 2 going to wing it. We're going to start with the 3 elected officials. I recognize that there are some, 4 I think, who may not be able to hear us or give 5 prepared remarks on the phone. I apologize for 6 that, but we do have some elected officials in the 7 room with us this evening, so I'm going to start 8 with them.
9 So just going to go through the 10 recognitions first, and then I'm going to invite up 11 those who would like to give prepared remarks. So 12 in person, we have with us Nicole Virgona from 13 Senator Chuck Schumer's office. Raise your hand and 14 be recognized. Thank you. And then on the phone, 15 hopefully we have Jerry Shapiro from Senator Kirsten 16 Gillibrand's office. We also have Joan Grangenois 17 from Representative Mondaire Jones's office. We 18 also have Brynna Trumpetto for Representative Sean 19 Patrick Maloney's office.
20 Also, we have with us James Creighton, 21 who is a town councilman in the town of Cortlandt.
22 We have Manna Jo Greene of Ulster County, and then 23 we have Susan Spear of Westchester County Executive 24 Latimer.
25 So with that, I would now like to go to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1 Joan Grangenois from Representative Mondaire Jones's 2 office, if you'll come to the microphone, please.
3 She's on the phone? Okay, all right. So would any 4 elected officials at this time present in the 5 meeting room like to give a prepared remark at this 6 time?
7 MS. GREENE: What I just passed out was 8 our sample comments, and then attached to them is a 9 very in-depth analysis that we did --
10 MR. GUZMAN: Excuse me, Ms. Manna Jo 11 Greene. If you could just state your name for the 12 transcript.
13 MS. GREENE: Oh, yes, I'm sorry.
14 MR. GUZMAN: Thank you.
15 MS. GREENE: I've done this a hundred 16 times, I should know by now. Manna Jo Greene. I am 17 an Ulster County legislator, and I am also the 18 Environmental Action Director for Hudson River 19 Clearwater.
20 So I'm just going to go through the 21 bullets very quickly. We will be submitting 22 comments in writing. But one of our big concerns 23 are the casks and canisters, that system that will 24 be put into place and is currently in place. These 25 are thin-walled canisters that cannot be inspected.
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24 1 They're sealed. There are lots of difficulties 2 that, in Europe and other places around the world, 3 they're using much more robust canister systems. In 4 our case, it's half an inch thick steel, and in 5 Europe it's 10 to 20 inches and often in hardened 6 buildings.
7 I seem to bring up high burn-up fuel at 8 every single meeting and annual report and so forth, 9 but I don't think that the question of high burn-up 10 fuel has been adequately addressed. And I think in 11 the PSDAR there's a rush to move very hot and highly 12 radioactive material too quickly.
13 Inadequate site remediation, I'll let my 14 colleague address that. Radiation monitoring. It's 15 my understanding that it's mainly perimeter 16 monitoring, and they're having cases of worker 17 exposure. I think the area where the workers are 18 working needs to be carefully monitored, not just at 19 the perimeter, and also the nearby elementary 20 school.
21 And then pipeline risk, I know that the 22 people here this evening are going to be talking 23 about the AIM and Algonquin pipeline.
24 MS. GREENE: Okay. Thank you. We'll 25 cover the others in writing.
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25 1 MR. KLUKAN: Do we have any other 2 elected officials in the room who would like to give 3 prepared remarks at this time? Please come to the 4 microphone. Thank you.
5 MR. CREIGHTON: Thank you. My name is 6 James Creighton. I'm a town councilman in the town 7 of Cortlandt, and we are one of the host communities 8 for the Indian Point Energy Center. I'm submitting 9 these comments in connection with your review of the 10 PSDAR, and many of my comments already have been 11 made earlier today. The government said it, 12 particularly Senator Pete Harckham made some great 13 comments, as well as Assemblywoman Sandy Galef and 14 County Legislator Smith and Cortlandt supervisor 15 Linda Puglisi.
16 But I did want to point out a few items 17 that are of great concern to us. Decommissioning in 18 our neighborhood is incredibly important. We have 19 only one shot to get this right. I think it's 20 incredibly important at every site around the 21 country, but we care here. This is our home.
22 Emergency response is critical, and I'm 23 very concerned that there will likely be a request 24 that they pull back on some of the sturdy protocols.
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26 1 would be a really big mistake to have less security, 2 less protocol in place, rather than more. Our 3 firefighters, our emergency services personnel, and 4 security teams on the site need more help. They 5 need more support, not less.
6 Decommissioning activities take place on 7 a level that it does. These are not normal 8 activities at the site. The site has been run and 9 run by professionals who knew that site inside and 10 out. But the people around there are digging now 11 and doing things that we've never done at that site, 12 and things may happen. There may be things that are 13 unanticipated, and those are exactly the types of 14 things that we're worried about. These types of 15 things we're sure will never happen, but you take a 16 look at how many gas main breaks happen when Con Ed 17 just does routine gas main improvements, and there 18 are gas leaks. It happens. It's not anything 19 anybody wants to happen, they protect against it, 20 but it does.
21 So here in the PSDAR, when you're 22 looking at security, security has to be primary. We 23 need to increase security, not pull back on it. We 24 need to plan. We need to be prepared for every 25 scenario, and your charge, as you've said, is have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 the right level of oversight for safe 2 decommissioning. So this has got to be item number 3 one. Let's not cut back on safety and security.
4 We also need to be assured the financial 5 aspects or the numbers that were provided in the 6 PSDAR are accurate. I don't understand where some 7 of the numbers come from, but I'm not a financial 8 genius. We have somebody on the panel now. But 9 there were items in the PSDAR that talk about spent 10 fuel management and project or construction 11 management, and that's great. The trust funds are 12 the funds that we, the taxpayers and ratepayers, 13 paid in all these years; and Holtec or any company 14 is totally entitled to a reasonable fee and a return 15 on their investment. But it looks like some of the 16 numbers in the PSDAR are either coming up in error 17 or essentially may suspend out the trust fund. And 18 that's a concern. They may be well based, but I'd 19 ask that the financial experts take a look. You've 20 seen the decommissioning in other areas. Make sure 21 those numbers line up. The project management and 22 construction management is not all that different 23 here elsewhere. It may be more complex here. We 24 have a very dense population center nearby, so we 25 want to get this right. If it costs more, great.
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28 1 Tell us. But we want to make sure that those 2 numbers have a basis.
3 And we appreciate that Holtec wants to 4 do a fast decommissioning, and we very much would 5 like the property returned to a productive nature as 6 fast as possible, so long as it's as safe as 7 possible. We know they want to maximize their 8 profits, and we're sure they won't be cutting 9 corners or you, in your place at this table and 10 looking this over, will ensure that no corner is cut 11 and everything is done and done right and done with 12 an extra level of security and sensibility.
13 Earlier today, you heard pushback on the 14 Federal Register for the nuclear fuel.
15 Decommissioning trust funds should not be used for 16 purposes other than decommissioning. That's just 17 full stop. I don't understand anything beyond that, 18 but, you know, Holtec is entitled to make money 19 doing what they're doing. But the fuel is owned or 20 managed, whoever owns it, I'm sure that there will 21 be a request to the Department of Energy to 22 reimburse them for whatever they have to do to hold 23 on to this fuel that doesn't belong here for in 24 perpetuity.
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29 1 come from the federal government and also to come 2 from the trust fund. They shouldn't be paid twice.
3 They should have been paid out of our ratepayer and 4 taxpayer-funded trust fund. This is to clean up the 5 site. It's important to get it right, it's 6 important to do it fully, completely, and, you know, 7 until this geological repository, it's got to stay, 8 I guess, at the site. We'd rather it not be there.
9 But, ultimately, we don't want the trust fund to be 10 used for that.
11 Finally, we need to know that the 12 ratepayer-financed decommissioning trust fund is 13 used before the full cleanup of the site. Anything 14 else would pose a clear fiscal danger to our state, 15 to our communities. We want to make sure that the 16 job isn't done half right because a level that you 17 guys set is only sort of clean. It needs to be 18 really clean. It needs to be clean so that its 19 unrestricted use on that property, meaning something 20 really good and productive can happen there at the 21 Indian Point site. I know that that's your 22 intention, and I'm sure that's the company's 23 intention. But we don't want to be left, we only 24 get one shot at this, and we don't want to be left 25 bearing costs for the results afterwards if it's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 1 only done sort of cleaned up.
2 So the cleanup has to remediate the 3 known contaminants and radioactive isotopes that are 4 leaking from the plant into the groundwater. We've 5 got the wells that we're checking on. The fact that 6 we know that means we know it needs to be cleaned 7 up, so the contamination cleanup should go well 8 beyond just the nominal depth of three feet. I'm 9 glad to refer to the panel earlier today saying they 10 were committed to that being cleaned up beyond just 11 three feet and that it will include a groundwater 12 and the site will really, hopefully soon, be able to 13 be put to good productive use.
14 And with that, we'll say thank you for 15 your time and I appreciate, hopefully, the great 16 work.
17 (Applause.)
18 MR. KLUKAN: So to be clear, that was 19 not intentional, these sound effects. I also want 20 to recognize Tito Davila, who is a senior special 21 advisor for Senator Patrick Harckham, the 40th 22 Senate District in New York. And then also Lisa 23 Hofflich from Senator Kirsten Gillibrand is also on 24 the phone.
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31 1 earlier, Joan Grangenois-Thomas from Representative 2 Mondaire Jones's office wanted to give prepared 3 remarks. And so we're now going to try this out, so 4 we're going to hold up her phone to the microphone 5 and see what happens. All right.
6 MS. GRANGENOIS-THOMAS: Good evening, 7 everyone. My name is Joan Grangenois-Thomas. I'm 8 District Director for Congressman Mondaire Jones.
9 And on behalf of the congressman, I want to thank 10 the NRC for hosting the government-to-government 11 meeting earlier and holding this public event and 12 providing us the opportunity to raise the issues are 13 constituents are deeply concerned about.
14 I want to start by highlighting that 15 Indian Point moving from an active facility to a 16 decommissioning one does not alleviate our 17 constituents' concerns or lower the bar for NRC 18 engagement. We hear near daily from members of our 19 community who are concerned about their safety 20 living, working, and sending their children to 21 school in close proximity to Indian Point.
22 Our community also feels like they are 23 the last to know important information about the 24 future of Indian Point when they have the most at 25 stake. The NRC must do more to engage local NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1 stakeholders bringing them into the decision-making 2 process instead of electing to pacify their concerns 3 after the fact.
4 We very much look forward to hearing how the NRC 5 plans to increase transparency to our constituents 6 by bringing them into the decision-making process as 7 Indian Point moves through the phase of 8 decommissioning.
9 I also want to take this opportunity to 10 highlight in particular the safety concerns our 11 community has regarding the Algonquin natural gas 12 pipeline currently operating in close proximity to 13 Indian Point. We ask that the NRC work with Holtec, 14 Enbridge, and Avista to consider all possible safety 15 precautions that can be taken regarding the use of 16 these pipelines during the decommissioning process, 17 including but not limited to considering partial or 18 complete shut off of the pipeline during 19 decommissioning.
20 Our constituents' concerns extend to the 21 time line of this decommissioning, the processes and 22 technology set to be used by Holtec and approved by 23 the NRC, and the ultimate future of the site. So, 24 again, I want to stress that continued community 25 engagement through this process is paramount. Thank NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 1 you again on behalf of the congressman for this 2 meeting and for this opportunity, and we look 3 forward to hearing your answers to these very 4 important questions.
5 Thank you very much.
6 (Applause.)
7 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. So at this time, are 8 there any other elected representatives, 9 representatives of elected officials or elected 10 officials themselves who would like to give a 11 prepared remark?
12 PARTICIPANT: You have to talk slower.
13 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Sorry about that.
14 So are there any other elected officials or 15 representatives of elected officials who would like 16 to give a prepared remark at this time, or, and I 17 apologize for not mentioning this earlier, any 18 tribal representatives? If not, we will move on 19 with the public comment portion of this meeting.
20 MR. WATSON: While this is an NRC 21 meeting, we thought that it would be best that -- a 22 lot of questions may be for Holtec International, 23 and so we were going to ask if anybody from Holtec 24 would like to join us at the table just so we have a 25 focal point for questions that might be referred to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 1 them. So other than that, we will still be an NRC 2 meeting, but sometimes there's a lot of questions 3 that should be directed to them, so we invite them 4 to come to the table.
5 So with that, are you ready?
6 MR. KLUKAN: Yes. So just to be clear, 7 Holtec is here, has provided representatives to 8 potentially answer your questions. Holtec is not 9 required to answer your questions. We cannot compel 10 them to answer your questions, but you can direct 11 your questions to Holtec or your comments to Holtec, 12 and then Holtec can decide to choose to respond or 13 not. Again, if Holtec starts responding during your 14 time while it's counting down, that eats into your 15 time. So I would suggest, again, that you bundle 16 your comments together, okay?
17 I will be putting down the ticket order 18 on this whiteboard. But to get us going, the first 19 ticket is number 7, which is Sally Gellert. Sally 20 Gellert, ticket number 7. Is Sally -- oh, okay, 21 good.
22 MS. GELLERT: I'm Sally Gellert from 23 Woodcliff, New Jersey. I didn't prepare a statement 24 today. I just have two talking points you can think 25 about and consider.
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35 1 Greg Jaczko was the chairperson of the 2 NRC during Fukushima and realized how dangerous it 3 was and how many suggestions for safety were 4 ignored, and he has continued to talk about the 5 dangers operating or decommissioning. For example, 6 he talks about relevant stewardship of waste that 7 shouldn't be moved far. If it needs to be moved a 8 little way to get out of water or an ocean, that's 9 one thing. But transferring it across the country 10 is dangerous to so many counties across our country.
11 We need relevant stewardship to watch it over 12 generation after generation.
13 This is too expensive, and too slow to 14 mitigate climate change. There is a small modular 15 nuclear reactor here. We need dry storage across 16 nuclear energy. That's for you to consider, Holtec 17 folks. And we'll come back to that with the license 18 termination.
19 With respect to our Holtec rep, Lacey 20 Township (inaudible) really more popular with 21 Holtec, as have folks out in San Diego. NRC, keep 22 an eye on them. We don't really trust them.
23 New York and the rest of the world uses 24 thick-walled canisters to keep up with the ASME 25 standards. You don't have that requirement, and we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 1 want those standards imposed. We want thick-walled 2 canisters that will keep this stuff as safe as 3 possible. No exemptions. We're tired of NRC 4 exemptions. We need proof of the financial numbers.
5 We know that this is a private company. There's a 6 lot of limited liability corporations, so we're 7 worried. We'll probably ask the court for direct 8 oversight to force you to do more than rubberstamp 9 (inaudible) you so often are.
10 Questions that came up with the slides 11 were what kind of zoning restrictions can they 12 impose after the license transfer? And why are your 13 inspectors only through the end of August? This 14 decommissioning process is going to go on for a lot 15 longer.
16 And in terms of City of Buffalo, how 17 much waste, you know, what's a comparison? How much 18 more waste can you have at Indian Point after all 19 these years of operation versus those two.
20 Thank you.
21 (Applause.)
22 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 23 comments.
24 MR. WATSON: I was going to take a 25 couple of comments. Number one, I said that the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 1 resident inspector will be through August but we 2 will continue to inspect the plant and our 3 inspectors will continue to inspect the plant, and 4 that will be at a frequency based on the actual 5 activities at the site and the safety risks of the 6 work that they're doing. So we're going to be there 7 --
8 MS. GELLERT: Okay.
9 MR. WATSON: -- inspecting the plant.
10 There was another comment I was going to make, too, 11 and it's slipping from --
12 MS. GELLERT: The quantity of waste 13 compared to --
14 MR. WATSON: Yes. The amount of waste 15 is going to be significantly larger because these 16 are very large pressurized water reactors in 17 comparison to the small Buffalo research reactor.
18 But the good news is there's low-level waste 19 facilities that will take low-level waste and accept 20 it for disposal.
21 MS. GELLERT: Well, they have a lot of 22 high burnout fuel there.
23 MR. WATSON: No, the spent fuel remain 24 on site under license and will be continued to be 25 inspected.
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38 1 MS. GELLERT: And the thick-walled 2 canisters of the ASME standards?
3 MR. WATSON: I'm sorry. I couldn't 4 understand you.
5 MS. GELLERT: Thick-walled canisters, 6 you know --
7 MR. WATSON: Well, the canisters that 8 they're using are the ones that we haven't approved.
9 Unfortunately, they're not the thick-walled 10 canisters that are used in Europe. Those types of 11 canisters are going to have difficulty being 12 transported, where the intent in the United States 13 is to move the canisters to a permanent repository.
14 And so that enables them to be transported.
15 MS. GELLERT: That's a problem. Thank 16 you.
17 MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you.
18 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you again. Our next 19 speaker will be ticket number 5, Robert Stein.
20 Ticket number 5, Robert Stein.
21 MR. STEIN: Okay. Robert Stein. I'm a 22 concerned local citizen, and I appreciate the 23 opportunity to ask you these questions.
24 First of all, I would like to know what 25 basis do you have for assuring us that the fair NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 1 canister design is actually safe, and how long do 2 you expect them to remain safe? Because it is quite 3 possible that we not be able to move the canisters 4 away from the site on the schedule order in the 5 proposal.
6 I would also like to know what plans 7 there are for emergency personnel to train -- I'd 8 like to know about the plans for emergency personnel 9 to be trained and to have drills so that they can 10 handle emergencies, and I would like to know the 11 prospects for evacuation. So far, we have not had a 12 plan, and I know it's terribly difficult.
13 I would also like some assurance that it 14 is being considered the possibility of a serious 15 explosion or fire and be cognizant of the proximity 16 of a gas pipeline and the threat of terrorism if the 17 canisters, thin-walled as they are, are not stored 18 in a very hardened facility. And I understand that 19 there is no provision at this point, please correct 20 me if I'm wrong, to support those canisters inside 21 of the facility.
22 So those are my only major concerns, and 23 I'd appreciate your answers. And I hope you'll 24 consider them and take them into account. I 25 appreciate it.
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40 1 (Applause.)
2 MR. WATSON: Okay. I'll try to respond 3 to a few of your questions. The first is that the 4 NRC has approved those casks, those canisters. It's 5 in combination with a shielded configuration, which 6 is designed for what we call missile impact, 7 airplane crashes, and other things to not affect the 8 actual spent fuel canister itself.
9 But as far as emergency planning goes 10 and emergency exercises and drills, those are 11 continuing. They just might not be on the same 12 schedule they were before, but the emergency plan 13 and other exercises will continue as planned. And 14 the actual emergency plan reductions will not occur 15 until well into the fuel is cooled off sufficiently 16 that we can't have an offsite exposure accident for 17 an exposure offsite.
18 But there will be an emergency plan in 19 effect throughout the entire decommissioning process 20 and also a fire protection plan, along with fire 21 brigades and other such activities, to ensure the 22 safety of the plant. And we will be inspecting 23 those standards.
24 MR. STEIN: That's great. Will those 25 plans be made public?
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41 1 MR. WATSON: They actually, yes, they 2 are public. Yes, they're in the technical 3 specification.
4 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you, sir. Thank you 5 very much. So next up we have ticket number 55, and 6 that is ticket number 55 and that is Michel Lee.
7 MS. LEE: Can I switch my number with 8 Paul Blanch?
9 MR. KLUKAN: Noted. So Paul.
10 MR. BLANCH: Thank you very much, 11 Michel, for giving me this time. I've traveled a 12 long way. My name is Paul Blanch. I reside in West 13 Hartford, Connecticut, and I'm a professional 14 engineer, a nuclear expert. And the views I'm going 15 to express tonight do not necessarily support any 16 particular group, but I think my comments are 17 representative of many of the comments of the public 18 that I've dealt with. I'm reluctant to join any 19 particular organization.
20 I think it was inappropriate for the NRC 21 to get up here and tell us lies of Maine Yankee, 22 which was pristine clean. And the inference made by 23 the NRC, I heard the words green field. Green field 24 is not defined in your regulations. It's a 25 misnomer. It's a misleading statement. It should NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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42 1 not be used by a group as professional as you claim 2 to be. It is a misrepresentation.
3 The other thing you represent by showing 4 the Maine Yankee and that's the same at Connecticut 5 Yankee. I work with both plants. Decommissioning 6 is not done. There are hundreds of acres. However, 7 you say or infer decommissioning is done. There are 8 hundreds of acres that have not been released that 9 have received a partial release. Partial release 10 not even defined.
11 Now, my main point is I've been studying 12 for the past many months all the regulations at the 13 NRC on site remediation. Now, I have provided to 14 Neil Sheehan and some of the other NRC people my 15 concerns, and I know this meeting will not allow you 16 to address my concern with respect to remediation.
17 Is what I'm handing out here and have given to the 18 NRC are a significant bunch of my assumptions based 19 on my research that I want the NRC to confirm and 20 confirm in writing, and they can do it tonight if 21 they want to, but I want confirmation that my 22 assumptions with respect to remediation are, in 23 fact, true; and if not true, I want a response as to 24 why they're not true and no longer proper reference 25 to the regulations.
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43 1 Now, the NRC, whether you people might 2 know it, might not know it or get, the NRC has a new 3 policy published on March 19th, and it was approved 4 and posted in the Federal Register. And I am making 5 a formal request tonight that, with respect to 6 Indian Point and Indian Point's decommissioning, 7 that this policy be implemented. I will make a 8 formal request such that we can have a town hall 9 meeting, a roundtable meeting, as discussed in the 10 Federal Register with NRC people such that we can 11 have straightforward dialogue which we've never 12 have. All we ever get is, Mr. Blanch, we'll get 13 back to you and all I get is misrepresented 14 statements, as pointed out by the inspector general.
15 I'd just like to ask the audience, 16 members of the public or non-public, who would 17 support an open, I don't want to call it a debate 18 but a roundtable type discussion where we can have, 19 you know, just questions and answers for the first 20 time in --
21 (Applause.)
22 MR. BLANCH: Now, who at the NRC would 23 support such a thing? Is there anyone from the NRC?
24 I don't see any hands.
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44 1 going to ask for it. My question is, and I expect 2 some type of response and I would like that 3 definition of what is meant by not credible failure 4 of the dry casks, which the NRC refuses to provide.
5 Sorry for running long. Thank you very 6 much.
7 (Applause.)
8 MR. KLUKAN: All right. Thank you very 9 much.
10 We're on to ticket number 4. All right.
11 Ticket number 4 is Herschel Specter. Herschel 12 Specter.
13 MR. SPECTER: Good evening. I apologize 14 to the audience. I have put my back to you. I much 15 prefer to directly talk to you, but that isn't 16 possible tonight.
17 What I want to talk about is the 18 decommissioning cost estimates. On page 26 of the 19 staff safety evaluation, "the site-specific 20 decommissioning cost estimate included in the PSDAR 21 was necessary to complete the review of the LTA,"
22 your words. Therefore, if the decommissioning cost 23 estimates are in error, that is something might be 24 omitted that is important, something that was 25 incorrect and unrealistic assumption, all these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 1 things, if the decommissioning cost estimates are 2 wrong, then the transfer of the licenses are in 3 jeopardy and may be inappropriate. Therefore, I 4 want to talk about five things, if time permits, 5 that point to serious errors in the decommissioning 6 cost estimate.
7 I want to start with the subject of 8 inflation. Inflation is not considered by Holtec in 9 the PSDAR. I'll give you a page and a quote. Page 10 93 of the PSDAR, Section 4.4 on inflation, I quote, 11 "Escalation of future decommissioning costs over the 12 remaining decommissioning life cycle are excluded."
13 However, if you refer to your own regulations, you 14 will find it is required to include inflation.
15 Thank you very much. I hope I've been 16 heard so far.
17 In particular, please refer to Reg.
18 Guide 1.159, which has a section on inflation 19 required. That's an old document, but, more 20 recently, in a NUUREG, NUREG 1700, on page 14, it 21 also talks about the need for inflation.
22 So since inflation was required, I did a 23 little work and I calculated what the impact of 24 inflation would be on the Indian Point 2 25 decommissioning cost estimates, and the number I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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46 1 used for the rate was an average of the 2 decommissioning rate for the last ten years, 1.74 3 percent per year, on average, for the last ten 4 years.
5 When you plug that number in, and I have 6 the numbers which I'll submit to the Commission, 7 when you plug that 1.74 percent number in Holtec's 8 own analysis, increasing your rate every year, what 9 you find, you find in 2044 Indian Point 2's 10 decommission trust fund becomes insolvent. In 2044, 11 it becomes insolvent. And when a decommissioning 12 fund becomes insolvent, there's no money left in it.
13 So Holtec or nobody else is going to take money out 14 of the surplus. There is no surplus anytime a 15 decommissioning fund becomes insolvent.
16 So we have a problem with inflation. As 17 a matter of fact, any time, for Indian Point 2, 18 where the average annual inflation rate is larger 19 than 0.8 percent, Indian Point 2's decommissioning 20 trust fund becomes insolvent.
21 The second thing --
22 MR. KLUKAN: I'm sorry, your time has 23 expired. I apologize, I know you had more. I 24 believe it would be appropriate at this time to give 25 those written comments and the NRC will incorporate NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 1 them into the record. Or you can wait and to see if 2 there's more time at the end of the meeting.
3 MR. SPECTER: I'd like to continue later 4 if -- if the others went over as well.
5 MR. KLUKAN: The audience is my time to 6 call it. I'll wait until your time to come again.
7 So, under the rules, everybody gets 8 three minutes at the mic. This is a public board 9 meeting, and I think we're going to end, we'll have 10 plenty of time for everyone who wants to speak.
11 So, let's just go through the other 12 people. And what's left, and you'll get a second 13 opportunity.
14 MR. SPECTER: It's a start.
15 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. All right?
16 MR. SPECTER: I will return later if 17 you'll allow me.
18 MR. KLUKAN: All right. I'll do my 19 best. All right.
20 MR. SPECTER: Thank you.
21 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you, everyone. Okay.
22 Our next speaker is ticket number --
23 PARTICIPANT: Is there no comment from 24 the NRC?
25 MR. KLUKAN: Hold on one second. I'm NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 1 sorry. You're absolutely right. I apologize.
2 They're consulting now. Give it one 3 moment. You can begin.
4 MR. TURTIL: I'm sorry. Okay, yes.
5 Thank you. My name -- Rich Turtil, as I introduced 6 myself earlier.
7 I just wanted to acknowledge, Mr.
8 Specter, I wanted to acknowledge your comments about 9 inflation. And we'll be taking a look at that 10 certainly.
11 But, we also, I want to, of course, 12 mention that the anticipated 2 percent real rate of 13 return, which is reflected in the $2.4, the current 14 balance of $2.4 billion among the three different 15 DTFs, also reflects that increase over inflation.
16 That reflects, the 2 percent real rate 17 of return is that, that you would know, incorporates 18 consideration for inflation.
19 So, between your comment and what we 20 know as the compounding of these investments, I'll 21 take -- we'll be taking a close look at that.
22 MR. SPECTER: I remain to be convinced.
23 MR. TURTIL: Okay. But do please, make 24 -- ensure your comments get into us. Thank you.
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49 1 next speaker is ticket number three, which is Tina 2 Volz-Bongar. I apologize again for any 3 mispronunciation. But, ticket number three.
4 MS. VOLZ-BONGAR: Thank you. I am here 5 primarily to ask the NRC to use its agency to do 6 whatever it can to follow the risk assessment issued 7 by the New York State -- by New York State, there 8 are three agencies, to shut off the gas of the 9 outgoing pipelines while decommissioning occurs.
10 I want to point out to you after a 11 report was issued by the OIG that the NRC went back 12 and issued -- and reviewed the OIG's report. And in 13 doing so, interviewed Rick Kuprewicz, who is one of 14 the premier national pipeline safety experts in 15 that.
16 And I'm going to give you the transcript 17 that's mentioned in this report. He goes through 18 the absolute catastrophic risks of having this 19 pipeline next to the plant.
20 Everyone likes to say, as soon as those 21 fuel rods are out of the spent fuel pool, there is 22 no risk. That is unilaterally untrue.
23 The risk exists right now. And if -- I 24 lived through 9/11. I think all of us did. We saw 25 those towers come down.
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50 1 Those buildings were built to resist 2 planes. But, they didn't resist the fuel of those 3 airplanes.
4 So, when you say to me, oh, we can 5 resist the airplane, you know, the impact of an 6 airplane, I think oh, just like the Trade Center 7 did.
8 You know, so anyway, I'd like to submit 9 this official transcript. Because in it, you have 10 actually -- go into the report that was done by the 11 NRC about itself and the OIG.
12 There are these recommendations made.
13 And one of them is to look at the recommendations as 14 an agency that you make.
15 We are looking at a PSDAR that was done 16 in 2019. So, we don't have any of the information 17 that was done, any of this reporting, in the PSDAR.
18 The pipeline is not mentioned in it.
19 You know, and really the NRC at some point is going 20 to have to take responsibility for allowing a risk 21 assessment that didn't really properly cover the 22 dangers that we live with every day.
23 I can see Indian Point from my second 24 floor. This is real to us. You know, you're going 25 to go back to D.C.
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51 1 You need to really shut this down.
2 (Applause.)
3 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you very much for 4 your comment. Okay. So, our next speaker will be 5 ticket number six. Ticket number six, which is Mark 6 Fry.
7 MR. FRY: Good evening. My name is Mark 8 Fry. I live not far from here. I thank you very 9 much for providing this opportunity to comment.
10 I've lived in the river towns of 11 Tarrytown, Sleepy Hollow and Scarborough Manor and 12 Ossining for a total of 44 years. And I sailed on 13 the river for ten years.
14 I have sailed past Indian Point many 15 times. And sometimes as often as four times a week.
16 So, I know the facility very well.
17 First of all, let me tell you, I'm very 18 happy to see you out here on the long process that 19 the NRC has decided it's time to shut this reactor 20 down.
21 I appreciate all of the work that Holtec 22 has done and all you have done to, up too now, to 23 ensure that it will be done safely.
24 And as an added benefit of 25 redevelopment, I'll be very happy to see all of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 1 those acres returned to productive use. It will be 2 a wonderful place to live.
3 And I'm happy to see the standards you 4 are adopting is for unrestricted use without 5 additional control. Essentially it will be very 6 much on the way, maybe what's encountered 412 years 7 ago.
8 There's going to be a quiz at the end of 9 what I'm saying. Now, the answer is September 14, 10 1609. September 14, 1609 is the answer to the quiz.
11 Now, what some of you already know, 12 based on that answer, the question is, exactly when 13 Mark, did Henry Hudson sail this river a quarter of 14 a mile away from us?
15 And the answer is, all together now, 16 September 14, 1609. What he saw then, is 17 brilliantly represented by the Hudson River School 18 of Painters. The Jasper Proxy Museum in fact is 19 just about two miles south of us.
20 And it was a pristine beautiful river.
21 It's America's most beautiful river. And you have 22 weighty responsibility to help us all bring it back 23 to the pristine -- more, even more pristine beauty 24 that we experienced back then.
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53 1 these three accounts, which goes back to the 2 Pleistocene era. So, I've got a very good handle on 3 what happened in the last 400 years.
4 I'm a member of Clearwater, Scenic 5 Hudson, River Keepers, and the Hudson River Boat and 6 Yacht Club Association. I do not speak for 7 Clearwater, Scenic Hudson, or River Keepers.
8 But, I wanted to have to tender to you, 9 I spoke with Jerry Silverman who is the President of 10 Hudson River Boat and Yacht Club Association. He 11 regrets that he could not attend tonight, nor could 12 Scott Roth, the public relations director.
13 But, he did ask me if I may just make 14 one very quick comment. To emphasize that they very 15 much agree with the request of River Keepers to ask 16 Holtec, to ask you to require Holtec to revise the 17 cleanup plans to reflect all of the undertakings 18 that have been made in the settlement with New York 19 State Public Service Commission and others in the 20 public service commission proceedings.
21 I'll leave it at that for now. But, 22 that's the most important point that all of those 23 agreements that River Keeper worked so very hard on.
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54 1 would like to see all of those undertakings 2 incorporated by you, the NRC, so that there's clear 3 federal control of exactly what's done. Thank you 4 very much.
5 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. All right.
6 Thank you for those comments again.
7 Our next ticket is number ten. Number 8 ten, that is Matt Salton.
9 MR. SALTON: Hello. Can you hear me?
10 My name is Matt Salton. I am speaking on behalf of 11 Hudson River, City of Clearwater. I promise, 12 there's no quiz on my behalf.
13 I'd like to talk a little bit about the 14 issues of transportation. What we have at Indian 15 Point is almost 2000 tons of highly radioactive 16 waste.
17 And we have a somewhat thought out plan 18 on how to deal with it. The issue is that the plan 19 in the PSDAR is to ship this waste from here in the 20 Hudson Valley down to West Texas.
21 At the current moment, it is not easy to 22 do this. It's fraught with danger and with peril.
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55 1 enough to do this. I know they're looking into 2 building stronger ones because of the weight.
3 You can put it on a train. But, the 4 trains also have some resistance to this immense 5 weight in the transport gap.
6 Trains have a history of derailing. And 7 would then put for any communities in the path of 8 that train at risk.
9 You could drive it. Although some roads 10 are not able to hold that weight. By law, you're 11 not allowed to drive it on those roads by that way, 12 including New Jersey.
13 The issues of bringing it to West Texas, 14 beyond the danger of the communities along the path, 15 is an issue of justice.
16 The communities in West Texas will now 17 be receiving our waste that they did not produce, 18 simply because they do not have the resources to 19 fight back against it. They did not ask for it.
20 And they do not consent to it.
21 The main issue with consolidated interim 22 storage, is that it is de facto permanent storage.
23 It is the responsibility of the NRC and 24 the United States to find a permanent federal 25 repository, of which there is none currently on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 1 books or in the near future.
2 These consolidated interim storage 3 facilities will become de facto permanent 4 facilities. And they are not prepared to do so.
5 We ask that the decommissioning process 6 happen in safety and austerity. Thank you very 7 much.
8 (Applause.)
9 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for those 10 comments. We will now have ticket number two.
11 Ticket number two and that is Amy Rosmarin.
12 MS. ROSMARIN: Hi. My name is Amy 13 Rosmarin. Before doing work on a construction site, 14 standard safety practice is to first shut off the 15 gas.
16 Before there is any decommissioning 17 activity at Indian Point, the gas must be shut off.
18 Furthermore, it is irresponsible and outright crazy 19 to let Holtec and Entergy decide when or if to turn 20 off the gas. Their motivations are money, not 21 safety.
22 On another point, I'd also like to know 23 what the NRC is going to do, so that Indian Point 24 does not become a radioactive Love Canal.
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57 1 above ground structures to simply be buried under 2 three feet of dirt. And allowing radioactive 3 surface and piping, et cetera, to be buried onsite, 4 like you did at Connecticut Yankee and Main Yankee.
5 Will the underground part of the spent 6 fuel pool and the reactors to be -- will they be 7 removed or will they remain onsite?
8 That's a question. You know, and I just 9 want to finish this, there needs to be total 10 remediation, otherwise Indian Point will become a 11 radioactive Love Canal.
12 So, I want to know if the underground 13 portions of the spent fuel pool, and the reactors, 14 are they going to remain onsite?
15 MR. WATSON: Are you done?
16 MS. ROSMARIN: Yeah. Yes.
17 MR. WATSON: Okay. I just want to make 18 sure you're finished before I respond.
19 MS. ROSMARIN: Yes.
20 MR. WATSON: Okay. First of all, at 21 Maine Yankee and Connecticut Yankee, in particular, 22 Connecticut Yankee had what they called the big dig.
23 They removed millions of cubic feet of 24 dirt and because of underground contaminated pipes, 25 which were also removed. They also removed all the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 1 underground substructures that were contaminated.
2 And only left behind clean foundations.
3 And so these, the dirt and materials 4 that they removed, were obviously a contributor to 5 the groundwater issue they had there at that site.
6 And these sites are all cleaned up.
7 Our dose analysis includes all pathways 8 analysis. Whether it's through the soil, through the 9 groundwater, through the erosion of the soil, 10 through growing of crops there, and possibly 11 drinking the water from the area.
12 And so, it includes a complete dose 13 assessment of the entire site. So, they have to 14 prove to us that there -- the residual 15 radioactivity, including the subsurface, meaning the 16 stuff below ground, meets the criteria for the 17 cleanup for us to terminate the license.
18 Or, to be perfectly clear, shrink the 19 site down to the dry fuel storage. And this 20 occurred at both Maine Yankee and at Connecticut 21 Yankee, and at all the other reactor sites that have 22 been cleaned up and decommissioned.
23 So, it's a --
24 MS. ROSMARIN: So, -- so they will be 25 removed?
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59 1 MR. WATSON: It will be removed, yes.
2 It's the only way you can meet the dose criteria and 3 the NRC requirements for meeting the unrestricted 4 use of site, which is what the Holtec PSDAR says 5 they're going to meet.
6 These details will all be spelled out in 7 the license termination plan, which has yet to be 8 developed and issued. It will probably be out in a 9 number of years.
10 They have to submit it two years before 11 the termination of the -- the request for 12 termination of the license.
13 And it will be a very thick document.
14 It will be very technical. It will include all of 15 the dose modeling, and how they're going to do the 16 measurements.
17 And we will be there to inspect 18 throughout the entire process, to make sure the site 19 is cleaned up. Okay? Thank you.
20 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 21 questions and comments. Our next speaker will be 22 ticket number 62. Ticket 62, Marie Inserra.
23 MS. INSERRA: Hello. Thanks for the 24 opportunity to say something. My name is Marie 25 Inserra. I live in Peekskill, New York, within a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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60 1 very short distance from Indian Point.
2 I'd like --
3 Sure. Okay. I'd like to start by 4 quoting the NRC's mission statement. To license and 5 regulate the nation's civilian use of radioactive 6 materials. To provide reasonable assurance of 7 adequate protection of public health and safety.
8 And to promote the common defense and security and 9 to protect the environment.
10 So, some questions from me. Can we 11 reasonably assume that we're adequately protected 12 when we have been left to coexist with the Indian 13 Point Energy Center for 59 years without a viable 14 evacuation plan?
15 Can we feel -- can we feel assured in 16 regard to the promotion of the common defense when 17 the configuration system for the onsite arrangement 18 of those casks at Indian Point is such -- is it 19 really a more vulnerable outcome, outline for 20 terrorism?
21 Not something that we could possibly 22 copy the example of European countries where they're 23 using much more robust casks and putting them in 24 hardened buildings.
25 And I wonder, since a lot of the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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61 1 conversation has made it obvious that the cask 2 choice has some -- has a lot to do with transport.
3 And I feel very strongly that we shouldn't be 4 undertaking that.
5 This is a very dangerous situation 6 transport casks with all that radioactive material 7 on a barge and then across country to sites that 8 have been selected. Many of which are in areas of 9 fossil fuel extraction. So, they are more prone to 10 earthquakes.
11 And we're dumping this on communities, 12 usually indigenous communities, communities of 13 color, Hispanic communities, who already suffered 14 the blunt of a lot of nuclear industry, based with 15 the nuclear industry.
16 Should we also feel safe when we -- that 17 the com -- with the common wisdom regarding high 18 burn off fuel has been that this highly radioactive 19 fuel should really be allowed seven years to cool.
20 Now, we're being told it's going to be 21 done in a much, much shorter time frame. How safe 22 is that? I don't feel comfortable about that.
23 And then other issues, remediation of 24 the soil. If we're not going to do a really good 25 job of it, then it's not going to be adequate.
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62 1 And we live here. And we have to live 2 with that. I do think onsite storage long term in 3 tight casks is really the way to go. And we have 4 examples that have been quoted before.
5 My other big concern has been quoted 6 many times by other speakers. And that is the 7 pipeline, which isn't even mentioned in the PSDAR.
8 Three pipelines, two under the plant and 9 one huge pipeline, and the previous, I think the 10 previous speaker, two previous speakers back 11 mentioned, shutting off the gas before you do 12 anything. It's just common sense.
13 But, the fact that these pipelines were 14 permitted, the aim pipeline, the 42-inch pipeline 15 was permitted based on information that's really 16 questionable.
17 And that many, there have been, 18 especially the NRC's findings and the Inspector 19 General's investigation, which found that -- that 20 the information was really retrofitted to give us 21 the -- how the expected or the desired result.
22 This needs to be investigated. And I'm 23 encouraging you to take all of those points of the 24 mission statement seriously to protect the public.
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63 1 you.
2 (Applause.)
3 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 4 comments. Our next speaker is ticket number 58, 5 which is Richard Webster.
6 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, hello. I'm Richard 7 Webster. I'm from River Keeper. Again, thanks for 8 you all to come out and thanks to you for holding 9 this meeting.
10 I had comments about the PSDAR in our 11 report. And I have it in writing and give -- submit 12 comments.
13 But, just a few points. First of all, 14 we do -- we do note, as previously mentioned, that 15 the Aims pipeline was not mentioned at all in the 16 PSDAR.
17 But in the state draft proposal, there 18 are some requirements on that. And that's come to 19 the illustration of why you have not had the joint 20 proposal requirements incorporated into the PSDAR.
21 For instance, another requirement is to 22 go down to millirems, or up to 25 millirems dose.
23 And there are some requirements on the financial 24 side as well in terms of the financial restrictions.
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64 1 everything rolled into one document rather than a 2 document of the state and another document for the 3 feds.
4 And then, you know, have the people on 5 each side confused, having two documents to work 6 from. So, I would appreciate -- I look forward to a 7 response on that.
8 Now, on the casks, I think there's a 9 little confusion about this. I know there was a 10 problem in New Jersey at Oyster Creek where one of 11 the lids came off during pressure testing.
12 And there was some little exposure 13 there. I'd like to know what happened? Why it 14 happened, and what -- what other measures have been 15 taken to prevent a recurrence.
16 In terms of cask inspections, I've been 17 told the casks, once they've been fully loaded, have 18 a visual inspection.
19 I don't quite understand how that works, 20 because it's my understanding that there's a 21 multipurpose canister in the center of a concrete 22 over pack and some metal.
23 So, it seems to me that the -- the 24 critical containment is in the bottom of this 25 canister wall. And I don't see how you can inspect NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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65 1 that without using some other method other than 2 visual.
3 So, I don't know, that's something 4 should be done. And then finally, I do understand 5 that at Oyster Creek also accepted with Lacey 6 Township and required some sort of pit or an over-7 pack to be on standby in case of cask failure.
8 And I don't know the requirements of how 9 that works. So, I would appreciate some 10 enlightenment on how that works.
11 And -- oh yeah, finally, there's a big 12 cost difference in the PSDAR between IP2 and IP3.
13 Given the two reactors are -- are functioning 14 equivalent, it's hard to understand how that 15 happened, why that's the case?
16 And I'd like to have that explanation 17 too, please. Thank you.
18 MR. KLUKAN: Tony, you want to provide 19 some information on his Oyster Creek questions?
20 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Sure. Thank you for 21 your question about Oyster Creek. You had a 22 question and you have made a statement about a lid 23 coming off. That's not -- that's not what happened.
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66 1 up. And it did have some contamination at some of 2 the levels.
3 One of the individuals did slightly get 4 contaminated. They decontaminated him and so on.
5 But, the lid did not come off.
6 MR. WEBSTER: So, what's being done to 7 prevent further on that?
8 MR. DIMITRIADIS: We did have follow up 9 inspections. And the licensee actually did an all 10 stop. And took numerous corrective actions to 11 prevent cuts for that.
12 MR. WEBSTER: What were the --
13 MR. DIMITRIADIS: I'm sorry?
14 MR. WEBSTER: What were the various 15 insights?
16 MR. DIMITRIADIS: I don't have a list of 17 them in my mind right now. But, one of them is to 18 ensure that the way that the pressure attachment is 19 attached on it, it was improved to put a number of 20 brackets on there so that it wouldn't come off, 21 basically. Among other things.
22 MS. WARNER: We take very active 23 authority that was put on that.
24 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. Thanks.
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67 1 bit about the dry cask storage inspection, so how we 2 do inspect it is from the beginning to the end.
3 So, at the beginning, at the part --
4 during fabrication, NRC headquarters staff goes out 5 and looks at how they're fabricating the casks.
6 Once they're onsite, we do take a look 7 at a sampling of their loading, to see how they're 8 loading it into the casks, sealing it up and putting 9 it on pads.
10 And then later on, we do have aging 11 management inspections. And we do this once the 12 site is after its initial period and evaluation.
13 Does that help a little bit?
14 MR. WEBSTER: Yes. So, explain to me 15 how the aging management inspections were done.
16 MS. WARNER: Now, it's inspect -- it 17 isn't an inspection procedure. I'm not sure if it's 18 fully effective yet. It was in draft form.
19 And we will be implementing it by NRC 20 headquarters staff once the site is beyond the 21 initial period of operation.
22 MR. WEBSTER: How is it done for the 23 current casks?
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68 1 because the sites are now just getting going beyond 2 that initial period.
3 MR. WEBSTER: So, do I understand it 4 then, that for the casks that have been, at sites 5 like Oyster Creek and Indian Point, that have been 6 loaded maybe ten years ago, there's been no aging 7 management inspections?
8 MS. WARNER: We do management 9 inspections that are required once the site is, I 10 believe it's 20 years at this time. So, it's not at 11 this time, I don't believe at Indian Point more than 12 20 years.
13 MR. WEBSTER: Okay.
14 MR. KLUKAN: So, thank you for your 15 comments. And we'll also allow you some additional 16 time at the end for follow up.
17 MR. WEBSTER: I'm looking for answers.
18 MR. KLUKAN: I understand.
19 MR. WEBSTER: I've asked a question. As 20 you said, I've just --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MR. KLUKAN: There is another time to do 23 that. It's only fair to the other speakers. So, 24 I'll allow you to speak again at the end. So --
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69 1 again. I want answers.
2 MR. KLUKAN: I understand -- wait, wait, 3 wait. I understand you're becoming angry. Unless I 4 remove -- at some point, I call all the names who 5 haven't commented yet. Those people have questions 6 as well.
7 So, a lot of you came tonight to be able 8 to talk. I'd like to give those people a fair 9 chance. Every single one of them came to be 10 listened to.
11 And then, if after time --
12 PARTICIPANT: But he didn't receive 13 that. He was within his time.
14 MR. KLUKAN: His time was up.
15 MR. WEBSTER: Yeah. But, was -- I 16 finished well within my time, to provide time for 17 answers.
18 MR. WATSON: And you had follow up 19 questions too. I --
20 (Simultaneous speaking.)
21 MR. KLUKAN: Right. I want to -- I 22 don't want to -- I want to do it efficiently and 23 effectively for everyone.
24 PARTICIPANT: And you're talking.
25 You're talking. You're talking.
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70 1 MR. WEBSTER: I'm not making thoughts.
2 These are my initial questions. If you noted my 3 initial questions, and I'm still waiting answers to 4 my initial questions.
5 I haven't asked a single follow up.
6 MR. WATSON: Well listen. We've 7 listened to your questions. We're trying to answer 8 the ones that we can fairly quick that you --
9 MR. WEBSTER: Okay.
10 MR. WATSON: That we feel like you want 11 urgent answers to, such as the Oyster Creek 12 question.
13 We've done that. I was going to respond 14 to one of your other questions. And then maybe 15 we'll get back to them.
16 But, the -- the point I want to make to 17 you is that the New York State and Holtec agreement, 18 the NRC is not privy to that. We're not a partner 19 in that.
20 And I think that the level of details 21 that are in there are probably not appropriate for a 22 PSDAR, which is basically a broad outline of what 23 their plans are for the decommissioning.
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71 1 will eventually be in the license termination plan, 2 because they're going to have to demonstrate to the 3 state that they're going to meet those.
4 So, I think it's, at this point it's too 5 early to have those types of details in the PSDAR.
6 But, I do expect many of them will be in the license 7 termination plan so that they can demonstrate to the 8 state that they're going to do things that they 9 agreed to.
10 So, I appreciate your comments. So, 11 thank you very much.
12 MR. WEBSTER: Thank you. Anything on 13 Lacey Township? How does that work? The over-pack 14 and the fit?
15 MS. STERDIS: So this is a meeting 16 that's focused on Indian Point. And so I don't 17 think it's appropriate for us to get into those 18 discussions. But we will take your comment back and 19 we will work to get you an answer to some of those 20 questions as it pertains to Indian Point. Those 21 negotiations are --
22 MR. WEBSTER: The question on Indian 23 Point, do we need the same contingency plan at 24 Indian Point?
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72 1 believe what we agreed to at Oyster Creek was 2 necessary for safety. We believe there's a path 3 forward should there be down road and a very long 4 time from now a need to deal with some kind of 5 problem with the cask that we cannot even foresee at 6 this time based on our design on our aging 7 management programs and on the oversight that we're 8 doing. But just like everything that's in the joint 9 proposal was not important to Lacey Township and 10 didn't get negotiated, they had different priorities 11 and you did too. So we do have a plan for how we 12 will deal with problems that should there down the 13 road be any issues with the canisters.
14 MR. WEBSTER: Good. We would appreciate 15 knowing what it is. Thank you.
16 MS. STERDIS: Oh, I can tell you what it 17 is. It will be a -- there will be a way that we 18 would encompass the canister in another layer if we 19 needed to, to make it safe. There's -- we've talked 20 about that on the Pilgrim NDCAP meetings. There's 21 information out there publicly that talks about 22 that.
23 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. Maybe we should --
24 I'll give my copy. We should follow up after this.
25 Thank you.
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73 1 MS. STERDIS: Yes, that's fine.
2 MR. KLUKAN: Okay.
3 (Applause.)
4 MR. KLUKAN: So what I'm going to try to 5 do because I don't -- we don't know if this is going 6 to work or not. I want to get through everyone in 7 the room who has signed up to speak. I want to get 8 through everyone in the room who has signed up to 9 speak first before I go to the phone for fear that 10 it may not still be working.
11 But we will try to go to the phone after 12 we get through everyone who speaks. That's why I'm 13 trying to make sure that everyone who came into the 14 room tonight gets an opportunity to speak that 15 wanted to because I will have to go to the phone at 16 some point. All right. So our next speaker is 17 number 57, and that is -- well, Paul, did you donate 18 your ticket? Okay. So Michel Lee.
19 MS. LEE: Good evening. Whoops. I'm 20 not very good with tech here. I'm just going to 21 hold it. I feel like I should start singing. You 22 know, it's really dawning on me listening here 23 perhaps there's the following problem.
24 The NRC staffers feel very impinged 25 because the site has to be decommissioned. You have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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74 1 limited options for dealing with the waste. There's 2 no long-term repository in sight.
3 The interim waste site which Holtec has 4 proposed, unless there's some sort of a very corrupt 5 thing going on, that may not go forward. The state 6 of New Mexico is opposed to it. The state of Texas 7 is opposed to it because the way it will be 8 transported in that region.
9 There are extreme environmental justice 10 issues. In fact, it's really rather despicable to 11 think that -- to propose the idea of taking these 12 tens of metric tons of nuclear waste from sites that 13 have benefitted financially supposedly from it for 14 years and dumping it on a low income minority 15 community that is already subject to egregious 16 levels of pollution from other nuclear activities as 17 well as the Permian Basin activities as well as 18 heavy mining. These populations are poor. They're 19 sick, and they have very little political power.
20 So let me tell you that the 21 environmental rights movement around the country is 22 mobilizing to oppose that site. So let's just 23 pretend that some sort of ethics come into play here 24 and that does not open up. The waste is going to be 25 here for a very long time.
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75 1 And in fact, even if that site does open 2 up, I'm just going to read some things from the 3 Nuclear Waste Technical Review Board. Take off my 4 glasses here. However, transporting large 5 quantities of spent nuclear fuel has not been done 6 in this country and will require significant 7 planning and coordination by DOE, although they note 8 that there have been small scale movements by Navy 9 fuel. The Board observes, unresolved technical 10 issues could significantly delay or impeded the 11 implementation of a national transportation program 12 for radioactive waste, another thing.
13 The large size, broad scope in 14 geological -- geographic distribution, da, da, da, 15 da, make resolving the technical and integration 16 issues associated with a nationwide transportation 17 effort a significant challenge. And then the Board 18 goes on to identify 23 technical issues regarding 19 spent fuel for every site in the country that needs 20 to be addressed. So please, I'm just asking NRC to 21 start being honest with the public and hold the 22 licensee to be honest as well. Thank you.
23 (Applause.)
24 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you very much for 25 your comment. Our next speaker will be number 56, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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76 1 56, Shanna Geiringer.
2 MS. GEIRINGER: Hello. My name is 3 Shanna Geiringer. I'm a representative of Hudson 4 River Sloop Clearwater as well as a student at 5 Vassar College in Poughkeepsie and a resident of New 6 York City. I just wanted to bring up a concern that 7 I have and echo a concern that others have made 8 previously about inadequate site remediation.
9 The preliminary PSDAR indicates that 10 Holtec does not plan on remediating the -- sorry.
11 Holtec does not plan on remediation after known 12 groundwater and -- sorry -- after known -- after 13 radiological contamination that has been known to 14 occur -- that has been known in groundwater and 15 Hudson River. And the plans for remediation of the 16 soil is also quite superficial. I just wanted to --
17 I'm very concerned about this and wanted to -- and 18 hope that the Board can ensure that the 19 decommissioning process will result in clean 20 groundwater and soil for the communities surrounding 21 Indian Point such as Peekskill which already is 22 subject to health hazards due to Indian Point.
23 Thank you.
24 (Applause.)
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77 1 that we already answered the question on the 2 cleanup, that the cleanup will include the entire 3 site, including the subsurface. I also want to 4 mention that we are also looking very hard into the 5 groundwater issues. We had a knowledge management 6 transfer -- it's what we call a knowledge management 7 transfer session at the NRC because our research 8 department, the Office of Research, has been looking 9 at the groundwater issues over the years at Indian 10 Point and had been studying it very rigorously.
11 And next week, we're having -- some of 12 my staff are joining Katherine next week at Indian 13 Point. And in particular, my groundwater expert is 14 coming to review all the data and all the previous 15 reports that have -- and sampling data and 16 everything so we have a complete understanding of 17 the groundwater issues and how those will be 18 remediated and looked at through -- by Holtec and 19 what their plans are. So we have a lot of 20 activities planned along those areas to get very 21 involved in the groundwater issues. So thank you.
22 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. The next 23 speaker will be Steve Hopkins, number 59. Steve 24 Hopkins, number 59. Going once, twice. Number 59.
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78 1 Shapiro.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Good evening. I think 3 it's time that you and everyone here get a reality 4 check about Indian Point and what you guys are 5 talking about decommissioning. There's a lot of BS 6 being spoken here today that I'd like to clear up.
7 First of all, Indian Point is not like 8 any of the other sites that you mentioned. It's not 9 soil. It's cracked bedrock. We know and you know 10 that there's pollution of radioactive effluent that 11 goes down the size of the Empire State Building 12 under Indian Point. It's leaking into the Hudson 13 River.
14 So your cleanup, I'm glad your expert is 15 coming. I'd like it later on to give me that 16 person's name because if you don't show those maps, 17 you don't know what's going on here. Okay. Let's 18 have another reality check.
19 This waste is not going anywhere. It's 20 staying here on site. Your promise and Holtec's 21 promise to the elected officials and people of this 22 community that this site is going to be cleaned up 23 in three years or that it's ever going to be able to 24 be restored back to being used for any unrestricted 25 purpose is just straight bullshit. That's what it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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79 1 is.
2 And it's time to have that reality 3 check. Let's have an honest conversation. Let's 4 not be talking about the joke. You said the reason 5 we want to use these bad, low level casks for 6 Holtec, why you've approved it is because those are 7 -- we want to transport it.
8 You know very well you're lying. Those 9 Holtec casks were never designed for transport.
10 They're not approved for transport. They're not 11 approved for high burnup fuel. So that's a lie that 12 you're continuing to tell the public. Stop it.
13 It's not okay.
14 This will never be a green field. It's 15 not even a brown field. It's a black field. It's 16 contaminated forever. Indian Point has more waste 17 on this site, more groundwater contamination than 18 probably any other plant in the country and you know 19 it. So stop lying to us.
20 Reality check, that this -- you can't 21 move this waste. There's no transportation to move 22 it. There's no place on the planet to move it. The 23 nuclear industry doesn't know what to do with the 24 waste. That's the truth. It's got to stay where it 25 was made. It's got to be stored as safely as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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80 1 possible using best technology available where it 2 was made.
3 Reality check, you can't transfer 4 liability. You can't transfer. You can't waive 5 liability of Entergy who created the problem. While 6 you created it by allowing them to continue to leak 7 radiation into the ground, there was a decision made 8 to allow for the strontium and the cesium to 9 continue to lead instead of cleaning it up. And you 10 well know that in 2005. It continued until this 11 plant shut down. It's still in the ground.
12 Reality check, the high burnup fuel 13 cannot be moved out of the spent fuel pools for at 14 least seven years. For you to even say three years 15 is a lie, and it's inconsistent. And stop lying.
16 It's ridiculous.
17 Financial viability of Holtec, let's 18 have a reality check there. They're a shell 19 company. They're going to go belly up. They're 20 going to go bankrupt.
21 Who's going to hold the bag on this 22 cleanup? You're giving us their -- our money.
23 You're giving them our money. That's not okay. I 24 have two more things.
25 We continue to have to need an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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81 1 evacuation plan. You're going to allow them to dig 2 on the site where there's high level of gas, 3 pipelines with all that and deconstruction 4 activities. You wouldn't let a person dig anywhere 5 near a pipeline -- a small pipeline. And you're 6 going to allow all this construction activity and 7 deconstruction activity on the site with the pipes 8 still open? That's ridiculous. It's time to stop 9 that.
10 And the PSDAR is an insufficient 11 document as it does not deal or even mention the 12 pipeline in any way. And once again, the biggest 13 lie of all is that this waste at Indian Point is not 14 part of the decommissioning. The waste is a federal 15 government responsibility. You should not be using 16 our money to do anything with this waste. Thank 17 you.
18 (Applause.)
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I'd like the name of the 20 person who's in your decommissioning, your 21 groundwater expert that you said is coming. Who's 22 the team? Because if you think that this site can 23 be cleaned up, you don't know what you're talking 24 about. Who's the person? What's the person's name?
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82 1 Randall Fedors.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Say it again.
3 MR. WATSON: Randall Fedors.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Fedors? Do you have a 5 number for him?
6 MR. WATSON: He's in the phone book.
7 It's on the NRC website. You can find him.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Fedors?
9 MR. WATSON: Yeah.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: F-E-T-T-E-R-S?
11 MR. WATSON: F-E-D-O-R-S.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
13 MR. WATSON: He's a groundwater expert 14 and actually did Yucca Mountain and other very 15 complex facilities. He's a well published 16 groundwater hydrologist.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: I can't hear what you're 18 saying.
19 MR. WATSON: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, he is 20 a groundwater expert. He's well published. And 21 he's actually the lead groundwater person for Yucca 22 Mountain. And so he's coming -- yeah, so I'm just 23 saying --
24 MS. SHAPIRO: And you know Yucca 25 Mountain failed because the court said that the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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83 1 groundwater was going to be contaminated and it 2 could not be protected.
3 MR. WATSON: We need to do an assessment 4 of what we think can be done and what Holtec is 5 going to do about it.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: So have you provided him -
7 -
8 MR. WATSON: So I'm not committing to 9 any --
10 MS. SHAPIRO: -- with all the maps? Do 11 you have all the maps of all the leaks that we have 12 that you provided us in the past? Are you giving 13 him the full file of what's going on in -- what's 14 has happened in Indian Point?
15 MR. WATSON: Yes, we are going to be 16 looking at the entire file at the site. So thank 17 you very much.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: There have been maps that 19 we've seen since 2002 of groundwater contamination 20 at Indian Point. There are a large variety of maps.
21 If you need copies of them, I'm happy to provide 22 them.
23 (Applause.)
24 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Thank you again for 25 those comments. Our next ticket is number 53, Susan NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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84 1 Van Dolsen. I'm now going to erase this board and 2 put up the new ticket numbers. So that's what I'm 3 doing. Please, whenever you're ready.
4 MS. VAN DOLSEN: Hi. My name is Susan 5 Van Dolsen. Thanks for letting me speak. As Indian 6 Point transitions to this decommission phase, we 7 residents are extremely concerned about the new 8 threats to our safety.
9 We have not had our concerns addressed 10 by the NRC in the past, so we aren't optimistic that 11 tonight will be any different. I've been to NRC 12 meetings for at least seven years and have raised 13 issues about the pipeline. And they have fallen on 14 deaf ears.
15 The pipeline approval is based on false 16 information, should never have been approved or put 17 in service. There is a mistaken belief that now the 18 reactors are shut down, we should not have any more 19 worries. That couldn't be further from the truth.
20 Decommission will involve heavy 21 equipment. And anyone who begins any construction 22 activities knows it is wise and necessary to shut 23 off the gas. But the PSDAR from Holtec didn't even 24 mention the gas pipelines.
25 Will the gas be shut off or not?
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85 1 Nationally recognized pipeline expert Richard 2 Kuprewicz prepared a report for the town of Portland 3 several years ago and has commented on this pipeline 4 for at least eight years. On March 19, 2020, the 5 NRC convened a meeting after the OIG released its 6 report about the egregious miscalculations in the 7 Entergy and NRC risk analyses. Mr. Kuprewicz's 8 statements at that meeting include, quote, rupture 9 is an imperfection that is in the pipeline that 10 causes almost instantaneous mechanical failure of 11 the pipe, either at the weld or pipe body.
12 This failure occurs in microseconds but 13 basically ruptures as the pipe fractures in 14 tremendous force because of the compressible nature 15 of gas. And so you generate these huge craters and 16 pipe shrapnel that may or may not ignite. More 17 likely, it will ignite.
18 It can generate its own ignition source.
19 But you end up with releases of massive force that 20 generate and throw tons of dirt and pipe steel 21 around. And then it will end up generating usually 22 a fire ball.
23 So what does the NRC think will happen 24 during decommission when the radioactive material or 25 all those material you're talking about being buried NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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86 1 under the soil? What's going to happen if the 2 pipeline ruptures and all of that is spewed around 3 as Mr. Kuprewicz stated?
4 Certainly this must be taken very 5 seriously, and the gas must be shut off. We know 6 that there are many other agencies in the federal 7 government that need to weigh in, and we are working 8 with them and our federal representatives. And this 9 must be remedied as soon as possible. Thank you.
10 (Applause.)
11 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 12 comments. Our next speaker will be ticket number 8, 13 and that is Susan Lifer or Leifer.
14 MS. LEIFER: Can I give him my time?
15 MR. KLUKAN: So he already spoke. You 16 can give it to someone who hasn't spoken yet. We're 17 likely going to --
18 MS. LEIFER: Okay, good.
19 MR. KLUKAN: Okay.
20 MS. LEIFER: Hi. My name is Susan 21 Leifer, and I live in Pleasantville. I've leaved in 22 this area for over 40 years. I'm very concerned 23 about the state of overseeing.
24 We've had two resident NRC people in 25 Indian Point. We're now giving this thing over to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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87 1 Holtec which is not experienced, has had a bad 2 record of lying, bribing, cutting corners. And 3 we're leaving us with no resident person in the 4 vicinity living next to the plant.
5 I understand we have a pipeline that's 6 not being watched. We have a decommissioning that's 7 not being watched. I don't understand what is going 8 to happen to this.
9 (Applause.)
10 MS. LEIFER: Anybody want to talk to it?
11 MR. WATSON: I'm sorry. Do you have a 12 question?
13 MS. LEIFER: Yes, the question is, how 14 in the world can you possibly engage in the idea of 15 not protecting us better? Just because it's not 16 your responsibility, it's somebody else's 17 responsibility?
18 MR. WATSON: No, the NRC takes 19 responsibility. We are authorized under the Atomic 20 Energy Act as amendment to be an independent safety 21 regulator of the nuclear industry. And it's not 22 only to reactors, but special nuclear materials --
23 (Simultaneous speaking.)
24 MS. LEIFER: But it doesn't end when you 25 leave. It's still dangerous. It still has --
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88 1 MR. WATSON: Well --
2 MS. LEIFER: It still has gas. If you 3 live in that vicinity, there's no evacuation plans.
4 If something happens in Indian Point, New York State 5 is going to go down. And if New York State goes 6 down, the whole country is going to wobble.
7 New York State -- the 50-mile radius for 8 any kind of thing that will happen includes all your 9 airports, includes all of Manhattan, includes a 10 great many other places. You're going to put 20 11 million people in jeopardy because this doesn't have 12 to be watched anymore?
13 MR. WATSON: Well, all I can really 14 respond to is that the plant is in a much safer 15 situation now that the plant is shut down and --
16 (Simultaneous speaking.)
17 MS. LEIFER: But with the gas pipeline, 18 it's not any much safer.
19 MR. WATSON: The gas pipeline has been 20 there for a long time --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MS. LEIFER: Yes, two old gas pipelines 23 that are ready to go and one new high pressure gas 24 line.
25 MR. WATSON: I really don't know how to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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89 1 --
2 (Simultaneous speaking.)
3 MS. LEIFER: So everybody is washing 4 their hands of it.
5 MR. WATSON: No, the NRC will do its 6 role for safety of the site.
7 MS. LEIFER: Right.
8 (Simultaneous speaking.)
9 MS. LEIFER: And then when you leave, 10 it's not safe anymore.
11 MR. WATSON: Well, we will continue to 12 inspect the site, including --
13 (Simultaneous speaking.)
14 MS. LEIFER: Will you have --
15 MR. WATSON: And we will continue to 16 inspect the fuel to make sure it stays in a safe 17 condition.
18 MS. LEIFER: Will you have resident 19 people on site?
20 MR. WATSON: There's no need to have 21 resident people there full time, especially --
22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
23 MS. LEIFER: I would disagree with that.
24 MR. WATSON: Thank you.
25 (Applause.)
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90 1 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your comment.
2 Our next ticket will be number 51, Courtney 3 Williams.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just have a few 5 questions that I'm hoping to get brief answers.
6 One, how many times does the word, pipeline, appear 7 in the PSDAR? How many pipelines run under the 8 property at Indian Point?
9 How many nuclear power plants have been 10 decommissioned within 4,000 feet of an elementary 11 school? Has a school ever been contaminated by 12 decommissioning activities? How would we know if 13 our schools were contaminated by decommissioning 14 activities?
15 MR. WATSON: The first question was, how 16 many times is the pipeline mentioned in the PSDAR?
17 It is none. It's a document that may address all 18 the safety issues. It's mainly a report on their 19 plans. We will continue to inspect the plant. We 20 have reviewed the pipeline and it was determined to 21 be safe for the operation of the plant. It will 22 remain safe for the --
23 MS. WILLIAMS: I do want to get --
24 MR. WATSON: Excuse me. Let me finish 25 my -- your answer.
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91 1 MS. WILLIAMS: So you answered that one 2 with zero.
3 MR. WATSON: Yeah, and I'm trying to 4 answer your --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: And how many pipelines 6 are there?
7 MR. WATSON: I'm trying to answer your 8 questions. Okay?
9 MS. WILLIAMS: I think you're trying to 10 run down the clock on my questions.
11 MR. WATSON: No, there's no time period 12 on me. I can respond as long as I choose. I'm 13 sorry.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, that didn't happen 15 with --
16 MR. WATSON: But well, no, I'm not going 17 to respond long for anyone. Okay.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay.
19 MR. WATSON: But the plant is determined 20 to be safe with the pipeline there. It'll be safe 21 during decommissioning. We'll continue to inspect 22 the areas of those plants. The plant has been 23 refueled and modified numerous times over the year 24 without impacting the pipeline. We'll continue to 25 make sure that's done. The pipeline company will NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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92 1 make sure the pipeline will remain safe.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: And there's -- how many 3 pipelines were there?
4 MR. WATSON: I believe there's --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: You're saying pipeline, 6 singular.
7 MR. WATSON: I believe there's two or 8 three.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Two or three? Okay.
10 MR. WATSON: One of them crosses part of 11 the property and one is a little farther out. And 12 then I think one crosses some part of the road 13 that's used for transportation. So we'll continue 14 to look at those areas in making sure that any 15 precautions that need to be taken in consultation 16 with the pipeline are taken into account by Holtec.
17 I'm trying to remember your other questions.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: How many --
19 MR. WATSON: Schools near -- elementary 20 schools nearby, I believe there's one adjacent to 21 the property at Vermont Yankee. I'm not necessarily 22 familiar with all the plants, but I know there's one 23 adjacent to Vermont Yankee.
24 MR. DIMITRIADIS: It's closed.
25 MS. WILLIAMS: The elementary --
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93 1 MR. WATSON: Yeah, and it's closer than 2 the other one, yeah.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: -- school is closed?
4 That's interesting.
5 MR. WATSON: And it remained safe during 6 all decommissioning activities there. So --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: My --
8 MR. WATSON: -- you have too many 9 questions for me to recall, but I'm trying to --
10 MS. WILLIAMS: So my other one was how 11 do you know if contamination takes place at an 12 elementary school?
13 MR. WATSON: The plant will continue to 14 have an extensive environmental monitoring program 15 throughout the decommissioning. And so they will 16 continue to monitor the environmental and ensure 17 that radioactive materials or materials that are 18 released from the plant are free of radioactivity.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: And has an elementary 20 school ever been contaminated by decommissioning 21 activity?
22 MR. WATSON: Not from an NRC facility.
23 MS. WILLIAMS: But it has happened?
24 MR. WATSON: Well, I can only speak for 25 the NRC. For the NRC facilities, this is true. I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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94 1 believe there may have been one DOE facility that 2 may have contributed --
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, that would be Zahn's 4 Corners --
5 MR. WATSON: Yeah, but that's not --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- Middle School.
7 MR. WATSON: -- an NRC regulated 8 facility. So I really can't speak to that.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
10 MR. WATSON: So thank you very much.
11 (Applause.)
12 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 13 comments. Our next speaker will be ticket number 14 60, number 60, and that is John Sullivan.
15 MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you. I just want 16 to start with a quick question or a quick answer 17 that the NRC is funded by Congress but is required 18 by law to recover 90 percent of its costs through 19 fees that it charges for its licenses and permits.
20 Is that accurate?
21 MR. WATSON: I don't recall the exact 22 number.
23 (Simultaneous speaking.)
24 MR. SULLIVAN: I'm getting a shake of 25 the head from the gentleman back there. And in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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95 1 fact, the industry that is being regulated is paying 2 the agency that is regulating it, right?
3 MR. WATSON: That's not how Congress set 4 us up. That's not how we're set up.
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 MR. SULLIVAN: I understand that. I 7 understand this is law and this is not you guys.
8 Okay?
9 (Simultaneous speaking.)
10 MR. SULLIVAN: You guys are employees 11 like many of us are.
12 MR. WATSON: The fees do not fund our 13 budget. The fees go back into the Treasury. And we 14 are authorized an annual budget --
15 MR. SULLIVAN: Right, right. So --
16 MR. WATSON: -- from the Congress each 17 year.
18 MR. SULLIVAN: So you're not going to 19 get --
20 MR. WATSON: There's no direct --
21 MR. SULLIVAN: -- Holtec coming and pay 22 you money. It's going to go to Treasury, and 23 Treasury then will fund you.
24 MR. WATSON: Yeah, there's no direct 25 turnaround fees to the NRC.
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96 1 MR. SULLIVAN: All right. So I'll just 2 summarize real quickly what I wrote which I started 3 with the AEC back in '47 and about how basically our 4 policy has been aggressive development of nuclear, 5 first nuclear weapons. And then in '54, we had 6 private civilian reactors. And it wasn't until '74 7 actually when even under Richard Nixon they had to 8 admit the AEC was so corrupt that you guys were 9 born. The NRC was established by law.
10 I went into a couple of incidences that 11 you guys had. The day of Fukushima, you guys 12 extended the Vermont Yankee license by 20 years even 13 though there was a leak under the plant. The GAO 14 actually set up a shell company that you guys gave 15 the license permits to that you never saw. And it 16 allowed them to acquire enough to make a dirty bomb.
17 So the whole point being basically that 18 it's set up so that expansion is the whole driving 19 force here. Okay? I'll read the last paragraph.
20 It's important to understand that from the beginning 21 and up to the most recent incident, it was decreed 22 where Holtec was given a slap on the wrist for not 23 following the NRC recommendation, an incident that 24 allowed a worker to be splashed with coolant water, 25 that the primary goal of the NRC as with the AEC NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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97 1 before it is the expansion of nuclear power.
2 Public safety concerns only come to the 3 forefront when the expansion is threatened. So it 4 makes sense that the PSDAR does not include funding 5 for offsite monitoring of radioactive tests in 6 schools nor adequate funding nor notification for 7 coordination of the local emergency and government 8 response, nor that Holtec did not know the gas 9 pipelines under the plant when it was granted the 10 license transfer, nor is there any attempt to 11 seriously slow the effects of the decommissioning on 12 the active gas pipelines. The only provision is 13 that Enbridge will be notified or that an important 14 violation of federal law and certainly environmental 15 justice the NRC is considering granting a permit for 16 a CIS facility in the primary basin.
17 Funding and measures to protect the 18 environment and public will threaten the U.S.
19 government's fiction that nuclear can be safe and 20 cheap but be of no concern to its citizens and 21 continue to grow despite growing evidence to the 22 contrary. And we have begun to count the cost of 23 long-term storage of spent fuel. So thank you.
24 (Applause.)
25 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your comment.
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98 1 Our next speaker will be ticket number 1, ticket 2 number 1, Henry Kelly. Thank you.
3 MR. KELLY: Okay. My name is Henry 4 Kelly. My wife Corrine and I live in Ossining, 5 roughly ten miles south of Indian Point, for 35 6 years. I have multiple comments and questions.
7 The PSDAR issued back in 2019 -- thank 8 you -- has not been updated. I find that kind of 9 strange, and I'd like to know why given the 10 importance of this. And that's a question you can 11 hold to the end.
12 That document meticulously quotes some 13 timelines, disturbingly avoided the outline of risks 14 and the planning analysis that would be expected if 15 a demolition project involving material 16 radiologically contaminated for decades. The added 17 risk of co-located high pressure gas pipelines is 18 not even mentioned. The term, community public 19 safety, was never once even mentioned in the 20 document.
21 Holtec cites the NRC generic 22 environmental impact statement, yet Holtec says 23 decommissioning of nuclear plants poses no added 24 risk while the NRC GEIS itself clearly states the 25 decommission increases the risk of potential release NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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99 1 of radiological material. See Section 4.3.9.2 of 2 NUREG-0586, Supplement 1. It says that when you 3 decommission because you're not doing standard 4 procedure causes there to be more opportunity for 5 release.
6 If decommissioning of nuclear power 7 plants is so without risk and the materials involved 8 are so mundane and undangerous, why is it so 9 expensive to do this work? The answer, while 10 avoided in the PSDAR, is simple. It's the 11 radiation.
12 Winds, rain, storms will hit the site 13 during decommissioning. Material will become 14 airborne and adrift offsite. There's no smell, no 15 taste, no sound, not visible, but poisonous to 16 humans.
17 Where is the document that describes how 18 the surrounding communities will be protected from 19 and, if necessary, alerted to an incident that 20 impacts public health? The NSC does not mandate 21 Holtec to provide and operate offsite radiological 22 monitoring. Why? Why is that possible if you're 23 going to be tearing up this site and you're going to 24 be getting stuff airborne that there's no plan for 25 offsite monitoring?
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100 1 (Applause.)
2 MR. KELLY: Holtec should be installing 3 or need to install multiple rings of sensors out to 4 15 miles of all directions around Indian Point as 5 well as airborne sensors over the site itself to 6 continuously report on amounts and directions of 7 isotopes moving off the site. The public needs open 8 access to that information as well. On the ground -
9 -
10 (Applause.)
11 MR. KELLY: On the ground at the site 12 itself, will all materials be immediately put in 13 containers or covered and put in open piles?
14 There's nothing in the PSDAR that says anything 15 about this. And what physical intervals will 16 monitor instruments placed on the site?
17 What stop work protocols will be in 18 place if radiological levels rise? And what 19 emergency response plans will be in place? Twenty-20 four/seven monitoring must be required for work of 21 this magnitude that impacts the health and future of 22 tens of thousands of people in surrounding 23 communities.
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101 1 number one. It's not an afterthought.
2 (Applause.)
3 MR. KELLY: The NRC, you folks, have an 4 obligation to the community, to the citizens to 5 ensure that. Thank you.
6 (Applause.)
7 MR. KLUKAN: All right. Thank you for 8 your comment. Our next speaker --
9 PARTICIPANT: There was a question about 10 monitoring.
11 MR. WATSON: I think we answered that 12 before that the environmental monitoring program 13 will continue at the plant.
14 (Simultaneous speaking.)
15 MR. WATSON: Well, I wouldn't go into 16 that detail at this particular meeting because it 17 includes the existing program as it exists today.
18 They'll continue that program for monitoring the 19 plant, all the effluence, and all the activities 20 associated with the decommissioning activities. The 21 licensee is required to comply with all federal 22 standards, whether they're NRC's, EPA's for dust or 23 fugitive dust emissions or whatever. But they have 24 to still comply with our requirements in 10 CFR 20 25 for all effluence from the site.
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102 1 They also have a program for monitoring 2 and ensuring that radioactive material is not 3 released through the materials that they release 4 from the plant and to treat the things that are 5 contaminated as contaminated material and dispose of 6 them as radioactive waste. So in the same respect 7 that I understand his concerns and people's 8 concerns, but nothing is really going to change with 9 the plant being decommissioned. The licensee is 10 still going to be responsible for monitoring and 11 controlling all effluence from the plant --
12 (Simultaneous speaking.)
13 MR. WATSON: -- whether they're through 14 the air. They have existing monitors. Through 15 discharges from the liquid processes, they have 16 monitors and have technical specifications and 17 environmental requirements for those. So I don't 18 know that I can answer in any more detail than that 19 at this point. So I'm just saying that things are 20 still --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MR. WATSON: The plant remains safe as 23 it was in operations for these types of programs and 24 will continue into decommission. So I mean, that's 25 the simplest answer that I can give you is that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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103 1 things don't change. They're going to continue to 2 monitor and we'll continue to inspect the plant to 3 make sure they're complying with those standards.
4 Okay?
5 So I appreciate the concerns, but things 6 aren't really going to change for the long term here 7 with the decommission. It's been done safely at 8 over 80 complex material sites in the country, 9 almost 80. And also that includes 10 power 10 reactors. We're in the process of completing 4 11 other power reactors. And so we've demonstrated 12 that our program works and it protects the people 13 and the environment.
14 And so I don't know how else I can 15 answer the question. So I appreciate it. I 16 understand the concerns. But we have programs in 17 place to make sure that these types of things do not 18 occur. Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. It looks like 20 we will not be able to go to the phone tonight. So 21 as a result, based on these number of speakers, we 22 will likely have extra time. So if you have 23 additional questions, you can ask them after we 24 finish our additional round. Okay? So our next 25 speaker number ticket 52, ticket 52, Judy Allen.
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104 1 MS. ALLEN: Hello. Thank you for having 2 this meeting and letting us talk. We did manage to 3 shut down Indian Point which is an accomplishment 4 for the people, the 20 million people in the 50-mile 5 radius of Indian Point. And I applaud everything 6 that everybody has said. I especially would like to 7 echo everything that Susan Shapiro said. So could 8 you please mark that down twice.
9 My only -- I only have a couple of 10 things here. I wanted to say that I think it's very 11 important that the NRC pay attention to the gas 12 line. It may not have showed up originally in 13 Holtec's plan. But I really think that that's 14 major.
15 The spent fuel casks that are, like, a 16 half inch to five-eighths inch thick are very 17 substandard. In Europe, I believe, they have spent 18 fuel casks that are 10 to 20 inches thick. And if 19 the NRC can do anything about improving the spent 20 fuel casks so that we could have better ones, that 21 would be great.
22 The only other thing that I want to say 23 is that I hear what you say about monitoring the 24 groundwater. However, Indian Point is on the shore 25 of the Hudson River. The Hudson River is an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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105 1 estuary.
2 It goes both ways. When the radioactive 3 contamination flows out into the Hudson River, it's 4 drifting down and then it's drifting up and then 5 it's drifting back down again. And I just wonder 6 whether you have a plan to address that 7 contamination aside from the groundwater.
8 And -- oh, I already said that about the 9 gas. So I guess that's it. So I would like to know 10 about how do you address the contamination in the 11 Hudson River? Thank you.
12 MR. WATSON: Well, first of all, we have 13 to establish that there is contamination in the 14 river.
15 PARTICIPANT: That's been established.
16 (Simultaneous speaking.)
17 MR. WATSON: Okay. We'll have to 18 revisit that then. We'll take a look at your 19 comments and look at that. There are certain 20 releases that are authorized by regulations, and we 21 understand that we've also taken some actions on the 22 previous groundwater issues.
23 And so like I said, we're going to be 24 looking at those very -- sorry, I'm running out of 25 words here. But we're going to be taking a very NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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106 1 hard look at the groundwater issues. And that's why 2 I said we're starting our investigation next week 3 with my staff taking a thorough review so we make 4 sure we understand all the issues so we can 5 understand with Holtec so that those do get properly 6 addressed. So thank you for your concerns.
7 PARTICIPANT: Where will we find that 8 information?
9 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Public inspection 10 reports.
11 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Thank you again for 12 your questions and comments. Our next speaker will 13 be ticket number 61, and that is Marilyn Elie.
14 MS. ELIE: I'd like to thank you for 15 being here tonight. I'd also like to thank our 16 congressional representatives who compel this 17 meeting since it's not on your list of required 18 public outreach. Listening to you tonight has 19 certainly been very valuable, so thank you.
20 I have -- I have three questions really.
21 The first one has to do with your letter on July the 22 27th which is in regard to how you will be planning 23 your oversight activities.
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107 1 IMC 2561. Why has it taken us so long to get this 2 information? And why don't more people have it? It 3 came into my mailbox on the 27th. And this has to 4 do with the inspections that you will be doing, 5 questions that people have been asking since we knew 6 the plant was going to close.
7 Now we have a Decommissioning Oversight 8 Board now. If you can't communicate with the 9 public, they are supposed to do that. So how are 10 you communicating with the DOB? Nobody on the DOB, 11 or even if they did get it, didn't get it in time to 12 get it out to us. It's been months since we knew 13 the plant was closing.
14 And on July the 27th, right before this 15 meeting, you sent out a letter that details what 16 you're going to inspect, how often it's going to be.
17 And thank you for the information, but why are you 18 so slow? Okay. How are you going to communicate 19 with the DOB is my first question.
20 The second question, I'm going to just 21 follow up on Judy. First of all, I also want to 22 concur with Susan Shapiro's remarks. So you can 23 mark that down in your column for three. And I'll 24 speak with Judy's monitoring.
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108 1 there is a pool underneath Indian Point in the 2 bedrock which shattered, as Susan mentioned. That 3 pool is radioactive and it is contaminated. There 4 is no mention of this in the PSDAR.
5 There's no plan about how that pool of 6 radioactive contamination will be remediated. We 7 need to know. Are we just going to cap it? Is that 8 the plan with Holtec?
9 What is the plan? Do you have a plan?
10 If it is, is it in your -- buried in your files 11 somewhere? And when are you going to share it?
12 That's the second question.
13 Judy mentioned that the Hudson flows 14 both ways. Yes, it does. And I asked this question 15 to the NRC before, and the answer I have gotten is 16 that you only monitor what goes in the river 17 downstream.
18 Well, there are plants upstream that get 19 their water from the Hudson. Those plants are 20 Poughkeepsie, Wappingers Falls, Highland, Port Ewen, 21 Village of Rhinebeck, East Fishkill, and parts of 22 Hyde Park. They use that water for their drinking.
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109 1 flowing from the groundwater into the Hudson. Water 2 will sink at some level, and dilution is not the 3 answer to pollution.
4 (Applause.)
5 MS. ELIE: A radioactive isotope is not 6 going to be -- it's not going to dissolve. And if 7 someone inhales it, if someone is swimming and 8 recreating in the Hudson and swallows it, they have 9 inside of them a radioactive isotope that 10 potentially is cancer causing. Now I think 11 everybody on this board -- I can't say you know. I 12 don't know what you know.
13 But having that water go into the Hudson 14 and saying, well, the volume of the Hudson is so 15 vast. You're not putting sugar in the water that 16 dissolves. You're putting in and allowing Holtec to 17 have radioactive isotopes flow into a drinking water 18 for seven different communities.
19 And should there be a problem with water 20 or anything else, New York City also has this as a 21 backup supply. So that's my second question. What 22 are you doing about the river that flows both ways 23 and the communities upstream from Indian Point and 24 monitoring?
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110 1 going to repeat what Ed said because he was very 2 eloquent. But my question is all it says in the 3 plan to close Indian Point is that monitoring will 4 continue. That is not acceptable.
5 That elementary school needs a monitor.
6 The workers have their dosimeters. What do the rest 7 of us have for something that is invisible and 8 deadly? So that's my third question and I'd like an 9 answer. Thank you.
10 (Applause.)
11 MS. ELIE: DOB was the first question.
12 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Yeah, so the letter 13 dated July 27th, 2021, is that what you're --
14 (Simultaneous speaking.)
15 MS. ELIE: Yes, yes, two days ago.
16 MR. DIMITRIADIS: That's a letter that I 17 believe I signed, Anthony Dimitriadis, second page.
18 MS. ELIE: It's to Mr. Baroni and it's 19 signed by -- sorry -- Anthony M. --
20 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Dimitriadis, that's 21 me.
22 MS. ELIE: -- Dimitriadis, yes.
23 MR. DIMITRIADIS: The purpose of the 24 letter is for the NRC, myself and my staff, to 25 communicate to Mr. Baroni and his staff the changes NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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111 1 in our oversight that goes from the ROB to the 2 Inspection Manual Chapter 2561 which is the power 3 reactor decommissioning program. And it just 4 reminds everyone, especially Mr. Baroni and his 5 staff, of where the inspection procedures and all 6 the processes, including members of the public so 7 you can see that, where the inspection procedures 8 are listed. So you can take a look at everything in 9 those procedures. They're all public. And 10 basically, it reminds Holtec what program we will be 11 conducting --
12 (Simultaneous speaking.)
13 MS. ELIE: The question I have for you 14 is, yes, your letter is very clear. And it 15 certainly gave me somewhat more confidence that 16 there will be monitoring because that question has 17 not been answered satisfactorily since we knew Unit 18 3 -- Unit 2 and Unit 3 was closing. Has anybody in 19 this room heard anything like he's describing?
20 MR. WATSON: Let me respond --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MS. ELIE: And I understand that this is 23 for your one community to -- or one agency to the 24 other. But you have a responsibility to communicate 25 to the public and you're not doing it.
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112 1 (Applause.)
2 MR. WATSON: Let me respond to you this 3 way. Right now, the two units at Indian Point, Unit 4 2 and 3, are under the offices --
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 PARTICIPANT: Speak into the mic, 7 please.
8 MR. WATSON: Sorry. Right now, the two 9 plants, Indian Point Unit 2 and Unit 3, are under 10 the offices -- Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 11 and have been under the reactor oversight program.
12 This was in my slides. And we're transitioning to 13 the inspection program. Okay?
14 So this is a change in the inspection 15 program. This letter formally notifies the licensee 16 that we're making this change. It's not that we 17 haven't been looking at the decommissioning, but 18 we've been under the ROP as the process for the 19 inspection program. All this letter does is it 20 outlines the fact that we haven't changed and here 21 are our plans for future inspections because at the 22 end --
23 (Simultaneous speaking.)
24 MS. ELIE: You know, I'm going to stop 25 you right there.
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113 1 MR. WATSON: No, no. I'm saying at the 2 end of the school year, the site will be transferred 3 from NRR which Mr. Guzman is the project manager to 4 my organization which is --
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 MS. ELIE: I understand that. The 7 letter was very clear. However, it has the 8 information that we have been asking for, for 9 months. And you have decommissioned ten power 10 plants. You told me that. This is not a new reg.
11 This is not something new that was just invented.
12 MR. WATSON: But it wasn't appropriate -
13 - applicable until we actually made the formal 14 notification from changing from the ROP now to IMC 15 2561.
16 MS. ELIE: But we didn't --
17 (Simultaneous speaking.)
18 MR. WATSON: -- simple process that 19 we've gone from one inspection program to the other.
20 That's all the letter is displaying. And that's an 21 official change in our inspection program --
22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
23 MS. WARNER: And I should point out --
24 MS. ELIE: And how will you communicate 25 in the future with the DOB?
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114 1 MR. WATSON: With the?
2 MS. ELIE: With the Decommissioning 3 Oversight Board which has a responsibility --
4 MR. WATSON: We can have a discussion 5 with those -- with the DOB representatives. And we 6 are planning to improve our communications with them 7 in the future. We need to get more coordination.
8 They're fairly new. And also we've always 9 volunteered to come and talk with them and never 10 invited. We made that very clear today. So --
11 (Simultaneous speaking.)
12 MS. ELIE: Well, I will look forward to 13 that.
14 MR. WATSON: You're making pretty much -
15 - you're asking good questions. But we're in the 16 process of making the transition from operations to 17 totally to decommissioning. And that's the normal 18 process we follow.
19 MS. ELIE: I understand it's your normal 20 process. My third question had to do with the river 21 that flows both ways. How is the Nuclear Regulatory 22 Commissioning monitoring the river for upstate 23 communities that get their water from the Hudson?
24 Your policy in the past has been only downstream 25 monitoring.
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115 1 MR. WATSON: I'll have to look at that.
2 MR. DIMITRIADIS: We look at the 3 environmental monitoring program that the licensee 4 has.
5 MS. ELIE: Look at what?
6 MR. DIMITRIADIS: The environmental 7 monitoring program. Like, we said this a number of 8 times. We look at -- as part of our inspection, we 9 look at the licensee's environmental monitoring 10 program on a routine basis.
11 (Simultaneous speaking.)
12 MS. ELIE: I've asked this question 13 before, and I have been told that you only monitor 14 downstream.
15 (Simultaneous speaking.)
16 MS. ELIE: So what I'd like to know is, 17 has that changed?
18 MR. WATSON: I just can't respond to 19 your question. I have to actually look into it.
20 But like I said, the environmental monitoring 21 program will continue. We'll continue with looking 22 at water, the vegetation, all aspects of the 23 environmental monitoring program as required of the 24 plant. It hasn't changed since the plant has gone 25 into decommissioning.
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116 1 (Simultaneous speaking.)
2 MS. ELIE: Well, I would appreciate some 3 information about that.
4 MR. WATSON: -- includes not only the 5 downstream but upstream if that's where the 6 effluence goes. And so give us the opportunity to 7 look at that.
8 (Simultaneous speaking.)
9 MS. ELIE: And I do hope -- yes, and I 10 will stop now. I do hope that you will certainly 11 look at that contaminated pool of water underneath 12 the plant that has not appeared in any of the 13 documents. Thank you.
14 (Applause.)
15 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Our next speaker 16 will be ticket number 12, ticket number 12. That is 17 Karl Jacobs.
18 MR. JACOBS: Hello, everybody. My name 19 is Karl Jacobs. I'm a former employee at Indian 20 Point, Unit 3. I was responsible for the reactor 21 vessel, responsible for the upper and lower 22 internals, repairs, also for FOSAR for the vessel 23 and also for removal and inspections, a ten-year 24 ISI.
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117 1 Indian Point 2 and Indian Point 3, the handling and 2 removal of the lower internals. The lower internals 3 for Unit 2 has over 200 broken baffle -- excuse me, 4 baffle bolts. The formers have not been inspected.
5 The baffle bolts hold the baffles in 6 place which is a structural component. When you're 7 lifting the lower internals -- and I've done this at 8 Indian Point -- and placed it in the stand, it's a 9 highly radioactive component which you all know.
10 You probably know. It's probably 50 R in contact.
11 I've taken these parts out, 10 R, 15 R, 12 which are pretty hot to handle. When you take this 13 out, you could have a load shift. You could have 14 these bolts fail, baffles shift, and you're going to 15 cock the lower internals in place.
16 There is not much clearance, okay, 17 between the vessel wall and the lower internals when 18 you're removing them. So there are no evaluations 19 being done for removing the lower internals, okay, 20 when you have degraded -- which it is, okay --
21 structural components. That's extremely important.
22 When you're removing the lower internals 23 for decommissioning, all right, and you break water 24 -- and which I did there just for normal operations.
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118 1 alarms at Indian Point inside which is expected.
2 All right. That's how hot this component is. So if 3 the NRC is not requiring special evaluations for 4 components that are highly radioactive, that are 5 degraded, you're missing something. Okay. So I 6 just want to --
7 (Applause.)
8 MR. JACOBS: -- bring that to your --
9 Okay. You should have safety evaluations done by 10 Holtec and CDI, whoever is going to do that work, 11 okay, especially on degraded components. And the 12 lower internals at any point too, they know where 13 the broken bolts are. They know the locations. So 14 you can do that evaluation.
15 If you're going to pay Westinghouse, the 16 designer, that's proprietary information. It's a 17 problem. For Indian Point 3, you guys have -- not 18 you guys. No inspection was ever done. You don't 19 know what's broken. You don't know where the 20 locations are and what the stresses are for load 21 lift on that. So hopefully that information is 22 helpful to Holtec. Hopefully you guys take that 23 into consideration, that you need safety evaluations 24 for radiological degraded components in this.
25 (Applause.)
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119 1 MR. JACOBS: Thank you.
2 MR. KLUKAN: All right. Thank you for 3 those comments and that information. Our next 4 speaker with ticket number 9, Margo Schepart.
5 MS. SCHEPART: Wow. If that was not an 6 incredible demonstration and endorsement of why we 7 need citizen oversight regarding the decommissioning 8 process, wow. I mean, obviously to you, you can see 9 that this room is filled with people who have an 10 amazing amount of institutional memory and 11 scientific knowledge. I've been living in this 12 community for over 60 years. I've been teaching in 13 this community for over 30 years.
14 I'm just one person. I'm, like, really, 15 really, really impressed. So certain things have 16 been repeated over and over and over again.
17 The radiation monitoring, that's a 18 concern. I understand that you have something in 19 place, but it's not enough. I know from speaking to 20 scientists that the kind of radiation monitoring 21 that we need in the elementary school, it's not just 22 sticking the Geiger counter there.
23 I know that it's very, very specific.
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120 1 the input of people who do know what it is. And 2 that's why Holtec clearly doesn't know what it is.
3 And it's just so important that we tap into all of 4 the expertise and all of the knowledge and all of 5 the memory of people in the community who have been 6 working for no pay on this issue and gathering 7 information because they care and because -- not 8 because they're being paid.
9 So my question to you is I just found 10 out from you that the post-shutdown plan isn't the 11 be all, end all, that now we have this license 12 termination plan. So my question is we've 13 identified issues, okay, concern about the radiation 14 monitoring, concern about the pipeline not even 15 being mentioned in the post-shutdown plan of Holtec, 16 concern about financial risk to New Yorkers, that 17 New York taxpayers will be left holding the bag.
18 Price Anderson will kick in that if there's a 19 problem with any kind of an accident, considering 20 demolition going on with pipeline explosion 21 possibilities, and the radioactive waste on site 22 which until humanity comes up with a way to 23 neutralize the radioactive waste which I think will 24 happen.
25 I'm little optimistic about that.
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121 1 That's got to happen and we'll figure out how to get 2 rid of plastic at the same time. But until that 3 happens, we have to use absolute best practices to 4 deal with whatever we have sitting there on site.
5 (Applause.)
6 MS. SCHEPART: It is way, way, way too 7 dangerous to move it. And so my question is, is the 8 -- these concerns, are they going to make it into 9 that license termination plan? Okay. They're not 10 mentioned in the post-shutdown plan.
11 But are they going to be mentioned and 12 in writing and set in black and white so that nobody 13 can backpedal on those that we've all stated --
14 you've heard it a million, million times. And we're 15 not going to let this go. This is not going to 16 slide.
17 All of the things that people -- we know 18 what we're talking about. Okay. We have a big 19 combination of knowledge, and we know what we're 20 talking about. I think you're taking us seriously.
21 I hope you're taking us seriously.
22 (Applause.)
23 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 24 comments. Our next speaker is ticket number 11, 25 Nancy Vann. And that's ticket number 11.
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122 1 MS. VANN: Hi. My name is Nancy Vann.
2 And you all usually introduce yourselves, so I'm 3 going to introduce myself just a little bit. I'm a 4 retired Wall Street attorney. I live two miles from 5 Indian Point, and you see I'm walking with a cane.
6 That's because in 1974, I was one of 7 probably ten people in the United States that was 8 wearing a seatbelt when another car ran into me. If 9 I hadn't been wearing my seatbelt in 1974, I 10 wouldn't be here to talk to you and give you a 11 little bit of information about what I see as the 12 risk assessment that you need to do. There's 13 several risk factors at Indian Point, and I brought 14 some props.
15 This penny, that's the fuel pools.
16 Those fuel pools, if there was a fire in the fuel 17 pools, we had assessments that show that on some 18 days the radiation and the evacuation area could go 19 all the way up to Canada. Other times, it goes all 20 the way down to Washington, D.C. And that's where 21 the fuel pools that are still there and still will 22 be containing spent fuel for a long time.
23 This penny, that's the cask and 24 canisters. Those are deteriorating. I've heard 25 that some of them are already beginning to show NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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123 1 signs of wear. Casks and canisters at other sites 2 such as San Onofre have been scrapped using the same 3 type of loading system that Holtec is using at 4 Indian Point. Only at Indian Point, they would 5 scrap the entire length of the cask and canisters, 6 the canisters going into the cask, not just at the 7 top.
8 The third penny, that's the earthquake 9 risks. You have not one but two earthquake fault 10 lines that run right next to Indian Point. One is 11 the Ramapo fault line and one is the Stamford-12 Peekskill fault line that intersects with the Ramapo 13 fault line about a mile from Indian Point.
14 According to the NRC's own evaluation of earthquake 15 risk following Fukushima, if you look at the chances 16 of every plant in the United States, what the 17 chances are of them suffering damage from an 18 earthquake, the Plant No. 3, Unit No. 3 at Indian 19 Point is the number one risk for being damaged by an 20 earthquake fault.
21 Penny No. 4, that's the new pipeline.
22 It's 42 inches in diameter, and it's extremely high 23 pressure. You've already heard a lot about it, 24 about the evaluation of how far the blast and the 25 firewall could go. It could go past almost all of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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124 1 the control room and that type of thing at Indian 2 Point. That control room will still have to monitor 3 the flow of water into the pool and many other 4 things. How are you going to run a plant without a 5 control room?
6 This penny is a really old one. That's 7 the two other pipelines that run right under the 8 Indian Point plant, not next to it, under it. One 9 is a 26-inch and one is a 32-inch.
10 Those were put in decades ago, and they 11 have not been checked regularly for faults. We 12 don't know their condition. If the new pipeline 13 exploded or had a rupture, the others would too.
14 And then the last penny that I brought 15 along, each representing the one cent that I think 16 you credit us with knowing about risk, that's for 17 the decommissioning companies, Holtec and SNC-18 Lavalin. I put together a rap sheet for those two 19 companies. And it was pages and pages and pages 20 long, beginning with a ban of SNC-Lavalin by the 21 World Bank, that they couldn't work on any World 22 Bank financed projects for ten years.
23 Then there was a TVA bribery scandal 24 against Holtec, after which Holtec applied for tax 25 exemptions in New York using fraud by not even NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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125 1 mentioning the fact that they have already been 2 censored. Of course, one of those spectacular 3 events that you might find amusing was that SNC-4 Lavalin was also convicted for smuggling Gaddafi's 5 relatives out of the Middle East and into Mexico.
6 Now if you take all six of these pennies, how many 7 times do you think you would have to flip to have 8 six of them come heads up, no tails, no problem?
9 You see to always think that accidents 10 won't happen. But this represents six entirely 11 different risks, and risks aren't just linear. When 12 you have more than one risk, it exacerbates all the 13 other risks.
14 I would like to challenge any of you to 15 come up here and flip all six and see if they came 16 up the way you wanted it. Maybe one of them would 17 come up tails because it seems like everybody is 18 mainly trying to cover their tails. What we would 19 like is no diminution of the safety requirements.
20 You say that the safety requirements are 21 going to go on as they are. But I know that Holtec 22 and Entergy before it already applied for 23 exemptions. As an SEC attorney, an attorney that 24 went before the SEC, I know that there's rules 25 against regulation by exemption. And those NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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126 1 exemptions have been granted to every single 2 decommissioning nuclear plant that has ever asked 3 for them.
4 We should not be giving any exemptions 5 to these actors so that they can cut corners, not do 6 the monitoring, not do the types of careful 7 demolition that needs to be done. And the third 8 thing that we need to make sure we do is to stop the 9 gas flow. We cannot have both new and old pipes 10 with bulldozers and backhoes running around over 11 them.
12 Parts of Boston were destroyed by a 13 simple error from one engineer that didn't turn off 14 the right valve. And an entire neighborhood went up 15 in flames with their gas lines exploding. Those 16 were little gas lines that came into people's 17 houses.
18 How are these gas lines going to react?
19 We have a lot of evidence about that, and I hope 20 that you'll pay attention to it. And just to 21 emphasize that accidents do happen, even at nuclear 22 plants, I follow Ed Lyman who is from the Union of 23 Concerned Scientists.
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127 1 plant in the United States. That's every day. How 2 many times do we want to risk tossing the coin on 3 that?
4 And as you've already heard, the 5 decommissioning period is much more dangerous than 6 just when the plants are running which is bad 7 enough. If I was ever as lax as a Wall Street 8 attorney representing my clients in front of the 9 SEC, I would've been fired immediately. The NRC is 10 supposed represent every citizen in the United 11 States to protect our security, to not take risk 12 with our future.
13 And I challenge you to consider what 14 your responsibility is, the responsibility to get 15 back to people on the staff, to get back to the 16 Commission, to pass along our concerns and really do 17 the work that needs to be done to make this very 18 dangerous project -- it won't be safe, but to make 19 it as safe as it can possibly be. I'll leave these 20 here. Thank you.
21 (Applause.)
22 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Our last scheduled 23 speaker is Jane Bloomar, ticket number 13.
24 MS. BLOOMAR: Do I need help with the 25 mic? Is it too high? Hello. I'm Jane Bloomar, a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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128 1 lifelong resident of New York State, and I'm in 2 favor of nuclear energy. I'm also a friend of Diane 3 Sare who is running for New York State's -- one of 4 New York State's United States Senator positions.
5 She is an independent, and she strongly favors 6 nuclear energy.
7 It is regrettable that New York State 8 has gone along with the passion and fervor to take 9 down Indian Point without thinking more deeply and 10 more profoundly about the needs of energy for the 11 residents of New York State, the industry of New 12 York State, and the agriculture, the farmers who 13 need electricity to keep the milk and the chickens 14 warm and the cows treated properly as well as the 15 industry in New York, plus our own air conditioning 16 in the summer and our heat in the winter. Going 17 down 25 percent in energy in Westchester County and 18 New York City is a fearsome percentage. That's one 19 quarter.
20 We saw what happened in Dallas when the 21 polar vortex hit them. We cannot rely on windmills.
22 We cannot rely on the sun because the sun only 23 shines every so often and certainly not every day.
24 We don't have, like, cloudy days like today and 25 certainly the wind is not blowing incessantly.
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129 1 So we are turning in this 21st century 2 of ours to rely on unreliable energy. It is 3 unthinkable for a well-educated populace to be 4 taking this -- taking down Indian Point. However, I 5 realize that the decision has been made to take down 6 Indian Point.
7 But I would like to point out, and I 8 learned this from Diane Sare, that other 9 circumstances when a nuclear energy plant has been 10 closed, it can be reopened if the nuclear guts have 11 not been removed, if the nuclear reactors are -- and 12 rods, et cetera, are still in place. It is 13 extremely expensive to build a nuclear plant from 14 scratch. Perhaps -- so to decommission this 15 entirely or to decommission it for a period of time 16 while we assess for a year or two what it's like to 17 be without air conditioning or have brown outs or 18 black outs, perhaps that might be one way to go for 19 this.
20 I do believe -- I did pick up one -- I 21 couldn't hear the last speaker. But I think one of 22 her points was that the United States Nuclear 23 Regulatory Commission, it does seem like you all 24 ought to be helping educate the public about the 25 values of nuclear energy, not just to limit. Of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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130 1 course we need to limit power, but we need to be 2 educated.
3 Okay. I believe that's my point. I 4 wish you all well. I wanted to comment also that so 5 many questions seem to be directed at the NRC and 6 not at Holtec. So I do want to raise one question 7 of Holtec.
8 There has been some question as to 9 whether Holtec will honor the agreement with New 10 York State and stay within the bounds of the money 11 available to take down or close Indian Point. So I 12 speak on behalf of a citizenry who do not want to be 13 stuck with a bill when taking down an energy plant 14 and then end up without bills that we have to pay 15 for an energy plant -- a nuclear energy plant that 16 is gone. Thank you so much.
17 MS. STERDIS: Okay. This is Andrea 18 Sterdis from Holtec Decommissioning International.
19 And I just want to confirm that we were active --
20 MS. BLOOMAR: I'm sorry. I didn't hear 21 you.
22 PARTICIPANT: We can't understand you.
23 MS. STERDIS: Is it --
24 PARTICIPANT: Speak close to the mic.
25 MS. STERDIS: Real close? That's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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131 1 better. Okay. My name is Andrea Sterdis, and I 2 work for Holtec Decommissioning International. And 3 I want to give you my assurance that our company is 4 100 percent committed to fulfilling the agreement 5 that we signed with the State of New York, the local 6 stakeholders, the local government, and others.
7 Absolutely.
8 MS. BLOOMAR: I'm sorry. With the masks 9 and everything, I really didn't get what you said.
10 MR. WATSON: Let me try to answer for 11 her.
12 MS. BLOOMAR: Say it again?
13 MR. WATSON: Maybe I'm a little clearer.
14 MS. BLOOMAR: Say it again?
15 MR. WATSON: Yeah, Andrea said that 16 Holtec is 100 percent behind the agreement that they 17 signed with the state and local governments and 18 others and they're going to fulfill their agreement 19 to do that.
20 MS. BLOOMAR: That is reassuring. I 21 like your card.
22 MS. STERDIS: I'll give it to you.
23 MS. BLOOMAR: Okay. Thank you so much.
24 Any other comment? Thank you.
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132 1 we've now have gone through everyone who signed up 2 to speak. We have about five minutes left. The 3 only person I really got off was you. So -- and let 4 him close us out and then we'll end the meeting. So 5 please.
6 MR. SPECTER: Thank you for the 7 additional time. I'm mainly interested in whether 8 or not --
9 PARTICIPANT: Can you state your name?
10 MR. SPECTER: Oh, my name is Herschel 11 Specter. I'm a professional engineer in the state 12 of New York with a master's degree from MIT, a 13 former diplomat at the International Atomic Energy 14 Agency, and also the original federal licensor 15 project manager for licensing Indian Point 3. I 16 have a long history at this plant.
17 So I have questions for my colleagues.
18 I'm not happy with what I read about what the NRC 19 has done. So you might consider me a bit of a 20 crank.
21 But this crank is worried about the 22 various decommissioning funds possibly becoming 23 insolvent. And as I mentioned previously, if a 24 decommissioning fund becomes insolvent, it has zero 25 money left. So it has no money left to fix NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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133 1 anything.
2 I've also expressed the opinion writing 3 to you folks that money from the DOE from the Waste 4 Act Fund is just not realistic. You don't know 5 Holtec has no control over it. You don't know how 6 much come or when it might come.
7 And in fact, some of the analyses I've 8 already submitted to the Commission show the 9 insolvencies after 2030, you have Holtec is assuming 10 and the NRC accepts that after 2030 that DOE will 11 probably be on site removing the fuel. You can be 12 sure they're not going to give anybody any money if 13 there's an overrun. So there is no viable way of 14 doing financial remediation that shows up in any of 15 the NRC documents or in the PSDAR.
16 That being the case, I turn my attention 17 to other scenarios where the different 18 decommissioning trust funds might become insolvent.
19 And I would point that no such alternative scenarios 20 were presented in the PSDAR. They were all 21 successful.
22 And no such scenarios were presented by 23 the NRC in a safety evaluation or in the 24 Commission's final memorandum and order. All we 25 have is one scenario per Indian Point 1, another for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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134 1 2, and another one for 3. So let's talk about that 2 for a minute.
3 In the case of all three plants, the 4 decommissioning model assumed a starting date of 5 October 31st, 2019. And whatever money was in the 6 decommissioning funds that day was run through the 7 rest of the analyses, all the way out to 2062. I 8 already know in my communications with the staff 9 that the staff did not set that particular date.
10 That date as far as the staff knows was 11 set by Holtec. And yet if you look at different 12 dates, you get different results. If you look at a 13 date now, things look good. We're up to 2.4 billion 14 dollars.
15 But in fact, and the Commission has made 16 this very clear, the amount of money in the 17 decommissioning funds fluctuate because the markets 18 fluctuate. And I presented a graph in my 19 presentations and submissions to the Commission that 20 there were dates, both before and after October 21 31st. And if you plug them through, the 22 decommissioning funds become insolvent.
23 As a matter of fact, back in December 24 31st, eight months prior to the Holtec chosen date, 25 you plug that date in, all three decommissioning NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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135 1 trust funds, and you point to 1, 2, and 3, become 2 insolvent if you use the Holtec model, and I did. I 3 used exactly the same assumptions, the same input 4 data, same structure. All I did was change the date 5 and therefore the amount of money that was reported 6 by Entergy for that date, and they all went bust.
7 So how could it be realistic to pick one 8 date that will be representative for the next 40 9 years for all three plants? That's question number 10 1. So I think the model is unrealistic and 11 therefore cannot be relied upon to form the basis, a 12 reasonable assurance, you can do the license 13 transfer.
14 It's not representative. It's a single 15 date. And the Commission itself and its own safety 16 evaluation talks about fluctuations up and down. It 17 is not reflected in the analysis. So the analysis 18 is unrealistic.
19 And secondly, talking about the 20 fluctuation because of only selecting one date, but 21 the second part of that is that all this emphasis on 22 one date, that supreme date, October 31st, you never 23 bring up the market variations from that point on.
24 But they do go on. Sometimes it's favorable.
25 Sometimes it's not.
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136 1 So the whole model that Holtec used, 2 unchallenged by the Commission as far as I know, 3 never ran another different scenario, you end up 4 with a bunch of failure scenarios. And the failure 5 scenarios end up with insolvent decommissioning 6 funds and there's no recovery. That's a problem.
7 MR. TURTIL: So --
8 MR. SPECTER: And if you're not -- let 9 me finish. And if they're not solvent, you still 10 have work to do. And I've even calculated what kind 11 of -- hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of 12 unfinished decommissioning tasks yet to be done.
13 What do we do?
14 So I'm disappointed that the staff 15 didn't have the curiosity to generate alternative 16 scenarios. As a former regulator, I didn't look for 17 just when things were successful. The applicants do 18 that for me.
19 What I look for is how can they fail. I 20 want to know is there another scenario out there 21 that gives me a result where the decommissioning 22 funds become insolvent. Now the staff didn't do it.
23 Holtec didn't do it. I did it.
24 I submitted it, and I've gotten zero 25 feedback. And why? Isn't it the staff's job to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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137 1 curious, to look for ways in which things can fail 2 or to ask, is it realistic to pick one day and say 3 that casts a shadow for 42 years?
4 And by the way, in those 40 some odd 5 years, I'm going to ignore inflation. I'm going to 6 ignore the ups and downs of the market. And I say 7 no.
8 MR. TURTIL: If I can just very briefly 9 --
10 (Simultaneous speaking.)
11 MR. SPECTER: I can't hear you.
12 MR. TURTIL: If I can be very -- I'll 13 just be very brief. You made reference to one day.
14 I'm a little --
15 MR. SPECTER: October 31st.
16 MR. TURTIL: -- stymied by that date.
17 So let me explain why. Holtec has taken a position 18 that the applicant before the transfer communicated 19 it -- within the PSDAR, communicates partial site --
20 partial termination -- help me out with the right 21 terminology -- in 2033 for -- I believe it's for 22 each -- for all three of the sites. I want to make 23 sure I'm correct on that.
24 And then, of course, as DOE starts to 25 potentially -- because no one is very certain --
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138 1 potentially start to initiate retrieval of spent 2 fuel and ultimately finish that transaction for each 3 of the three sites, ultimately the year target of 4 2063 where there would be full complete -- except 5 for the -- excuse me. Everything would be complete 6 at that point in theory. There is no certainty with 7 Department of Energy retrieving that fuel.
8 But with these dates and these target 9 amounts for license termination that staff performed 10 that analysis knowing -- keeping a real rate of 11 return to two percent of the funds. And those funds 12 currently are 630 million for Unit 1, 790 million 13 for Unit 2, and 990 -- let me finish -- 990 million 14 for Unit 3 in the DTS totaling about 2.4 as of 15 December of last year. With those funds in mind and 16 with the activities that they intend to perform, 17 from that point forward, staff concluded that there 18 was reasonable assurance that the licensee, Holtec, 19 would be able to complete those stages of 20 decommissioning, from license termination, from site 21 remediation license termination activities to 22 ultimately --
23 MR. SPECTER: Okay.
24 MR. TURTIL: -- spent fuel management 25 and then --
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139 1 MR. SPECTER: I totally disagree with 2 you, sir.
3 MR. TURTIL: But the point that I want 4 to make, that I really want to reinforce is that 5 Holtec will be reporting by March 31st of each and 6 every year to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
7 Let me finish. And just like any other long-term 8 plan, they were reporting that which they've 9 expended on decommissioning, that which their new --
10 their reassessment on what will be required to 11 complete license termination and the funding that is 12 available for that.
13 MR. SPECTER: Where from?
14 MR. TURTIL: Excuse me?
15 MR. SPECTER: Where does that funding 16 come from?
17 MR. TURTIL: Well, the funding --
18 MR. SPECTER: Suppose you say three 19 years down the road --
20 MR. TURTIL: Let me finish.
21 MR. SPECTER: -- and you find out that 22 they're not living up to -- it's more expensive.
23 MR. TURTIL: So year by year, and I hear 24 the concern. And I --
25 MR. SPECTER: Yeah, all right. What do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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140 1 you do about?
2 MR. TURTIL: -- appreciate the concern.
3 But year by year, the staff and the licensee --
4 MR. SPECTER: Right.
5 MR. TURTIL: -- are reviewing. And when 6 there appears to be --
7 MR. SPECTER: That's not my question.
8 MR. TURTIL: But when there appears to 9 be a gap --
10 MR. SPECTER: Yes?
11 MR. TURTIL: -- the licensee will say, 12 this is how we shall fill that gap. And there are 13 methods they can do that.
14 MR. SPECTER: Well, you have to 15 determine whether or not if there is a gap and what 16 all the causes are and will there be another one 17 next year and the year after, in other words. Where 18 does the money come from to fill the gap so the 19 decommissioning can go on? And obviously, it'd have 20 to come from Holtec.
21 MR. TURTIL: Well, that's a starting 22 point. If there is a --
23 (Simultaneous speaking.)
24 MR. SPECTER: Or Holtec just declares 25 bankruptcy --
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141 1 (Simultaneous speaking.)
2 MR. SPECTER: -- which you can't 3 control.
4 MR. WATSON: Can we let him finish, 5 please?
6 MR. SPECTER: No.
7 MR. TURTIL: There is a --
8 MR. WATSON: Let Mr. Turtil --
9 (Simultaneous speaking.)
10 MR. SPECTER: No, I'm sorry, sir. The 11 actual situation is that Holtec did not put up a 12 penny. It's all the people's money. And Entergy 13 never put up a penny --
14 (Simultaneous speaking.)
15 MR. SPECTER: -- except a bridge loan.
16 Let me finish.
17 MR. WATSON: Sir, that's a different 18 topic.
19 MR. SPECTER: Well, no, it's not to me a 20 different problem. The problem is --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MR. SPECTER: -- where's the money going 23 to come from. And I haven't seen a penny come out 24 of Holtec. And I don't know that they have the 25 financial wherewithal.
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142 1 And when the Commission says, well, 2 look, Holtec has enough money to do the job. In 3 fact, what it is, Holtec is only going to have 4 enough money because the ratepayers put up the 5 money. And if they don't do a good job, I don't see 6 them volunteering to make up the difference.
7 You know how you're going to solve this?
8 If Holtec signed a document and said, no matter 9 what, Holtec will make it good. They haven't done 10 that, no.
11 So we haven't seen a black and white 12 commitment. And finally, other utilities have done 13 exactly what I said, that when there's any chance 14 that the public might be put at risk, the utilities 15 have stood up and said, we will not have the public 16 at risk. And you know what those utilities are?
17 They're utilities that are staying in their area 18 like Commonwealth Edison does it.
19 But if they're merchant operators, 20 they're going to leave town. They have no long-term 21 commitment to New York, and Holtec has no long-term 22 commitment. Their commitment is to making money.
23 They're not long-term, interested in the 24 welfare of New Yorkers like other utilities who stay 25 in the area. So we have a problem particularly NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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143 1 aggravated by the fact we have a merchant, formerly 2 Entergy, utility who's already leaving town and a 3 replacement who has no commitment that I know of to 4 the long-term welfare of New York. Sorry. I don't 5 accept what you said.
6 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for your 7 comments. So before I turn it over to Bruce to 8 close out the meeting, this is more. But the people 9 on the call, this is not the way we want it. This 10 is clearly you were meant to have an opportunity to 11 speak tonight and that didn't happen. And for that, 12 on behalf of the entire NRC, I apologize.
13 I've been told that it was a weather-14 related issue. I don't have any further details on 15 that situation other than my understanding is there 16 were lightning strikes. I don't have all the 17 answers.
18 But the point is here is that this did 19 not go the way it was supposed to. And for that, 20 wholehearted apology. Okay. And with that, I'll 21 turn it over to Bruce to finish us off.
22 MR. WATSON: Yeah. Thank you, Brett. I 23 just want to make the same apology that we intended 24 to have people on the phone. Apparently, there were 25 some weather-related issues that affected the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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144 1 Verizon phone system that was set up. So we'll have 2 to -- as an agency, have to take a look at that and 3 revisit that issue.
4 Just a few comments, kind of summarize 5 some of the concerns. I'm not going to tell you 6 this is a comprehensive list of things I heard or 7 what the staff heard. But I just have a list of 8 things I was going to mention just to summarize the 9 meeting.
10 We heard concerns about the gas line --
11 gas pipeline and of course the safety consequences 12 of that and possibly with the decommissioning 13 issues. One thing that's concerning to the people 14 was the fact the gas line was not mentioned in the 15 PSDAR. There were concerns over the reduction in 16 the emergency planning and fire protection programs.
17 There were concerns over the financial 18 estimate basis and the adequacy of the 19 decommissioning trust funds for the long term. But 20 one of the things I'm going to mention is that the 21 state regulates those issues, not us. We just make 22 sure we have a final -- we have reasonable assurance 23 that there is adequate funding.
24 So we have -- there were concerns over 25 spent fuel casks and of course high burnup fuel.
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145 1 There were concerns about the groundwater and 2 remediation, especially concerns about the Hudson 3 River. There were concerns about the radiological 4 releases during decommissioning.
5 A concern that the PSDAR does not 6 include the New York State and Holtec agreement.
7 But we believe that some of those -- those issues 8 should be addressed in the future with the license 9 termination plan, especially when it comes to the 10 dose criteria that we're agreed to. Concerns about 11 overall decommissioning and disassembly of the 12 plant, especially with the degraded components.
13 I heard some concerns about our 14 communications with the state oversight committee 15 and actually with the local community. So there's 16 some opportunities there. There were concerns about 17 Holtec abilities to perform and completely 18 decommission the plant and their use of the 19 decommissioning funds.
20 So like I said, that's not a complete 21 list, but it kind of summarizes what I heard, what 22 the staff heard tonight. So I really want to thank 23 you all for coming out. Safe travels home, please.
24 Safe travels. And I really want to thank you for 25 coming out tonight and our opportunity to hear your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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146 1 concerns over the post-shutdown decommissioning 2 activities report. So thank you very much, and good 3 night.
4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 5 went off the record at 9:14 p.m.)
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