ML20234B163
| ML20234B163 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 06/25/1987 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20234B159 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-86-180, FOIA-86-A-221 NUDOCS 8707020254 | |
| Download: ML20234B163 (246) | |
Text
u na s p.u .,_ ,;
i . y 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 4
2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS
- 1 4 REGION IV 6
6 7
CONPJDENTIAL INTERVIEW 8
6 ~
9 10 11 --
~
7 12 13 The interview was commenced at 2:37 p.m.
14 PRESENT:
15 H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investicator, Office of ,
Investigations, U. S. Nuclear Regulatorv ' I 16 Commission, Recion IV, Arlington, Texas
~
17 THOMAS IPPOLITO,, Engineer, U. S. Nuclear
" Regulatory Commission, NRR, Washincton, D. C.
g 18 I
{ ]LecalIntern, Government 19 Accountability Project. 1901 Q Street, N. W.,
Washington, D. C. 20009 2 -
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21 ;
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23 04 8707020254 070625 l PDR FOIA GARDE 06-A-221 PDR 25 EXHIBIT (1)
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, ,, CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT have -ir#c matter :na: I wisc : ;":v'ce ir ::nficence :: :n e '.' . S . '.u c l e a r
- ula
- y ::= ssion (NRC). I recues; an ex;ress : ledge :f c #icen-dait:y as
- ncitien o' provicing :nis infomatien :: :ne NRC. I will n: :r: vide :nis
- ati:n vci.n arily :: :ne.NE~ i:n:u: su:n conficentiali:y :einc ex:ence:
a my uncerstancing, consistent witn its legal ooligations, the NRC, by
'reeing to :nis conficentiality, will adhere to the following conditionsi
) The NRC will not icentify me by name or personal identifier in any NRC itiatec decurr.ent, conversation, or communication released to the public which lates cirectly to :ne information provided by me. I urcerstand tne term ublic release" to encompass any distribution outside of the NRC witn the ception of otner public agencies which may require this information in
- nerance of tneir responsibilities under law or public trust.
) The NRC will disclose my identity within the NRC only to the extent quired for the conduct of NRC related activities.
) During the course of the inquiry or investigation the NRC will also make every fort consistent with the investigative needs of the Comission to avoid actions icn would clearly be expected to result in the disclosure of my identity to rsons subsequently contacted by the NRC. AT a later stage I understand that en though the NRC will make every reasonable effort to protect my identity, identification could be compelled by orders or subpoenas . issued by courts of -.
4, hearing boards, or similar legal entities. In such cases, the basis for enting this premise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will be /
m:unicated to the authority ordering the disclosure in an effort,to maintain ./,
- enficentiality. If this effort proves unsuccessful, a representative of e : sill attempt to inform me of any such action before disclosing my identity.
ilso understand that the NRC will consider me to have waived my right to sfidentiality if I take any action that may be reasonably expected to disclose identity. I furtner understand that the NRC will consider me to have waived -
rign:s to conficentiality if I provide (or have previously provided) infomatien ,
i, any Otner party that contradicts tne infomation that I provided to the NRC if circumstances indicate that I am intentionally providing false infomation the NRC. ,
_ . . _ . ,f N
uRIBIt (1)
3 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, for the record, this is an 3 interview of' the location 4 of this interview M, 5
6 Present at'this interview are for 7 the Government Accountability Project; L-- ~l S H. Brooks Griffin, Investigator for the NRC, and Mr. Burns, 9 the Court Reporter.
10 Whereupon, 11 /
a 12 having first been duly sworn by Investigator Brooks, was 13 examined and testified as follows:
14 Q The first thing we want to go into is, it is my 15 understanding that you desire confidentiality in exchange for 16 your testimony.
17 I am going to give you a copy of our confidentiality 18 agreement here --
19 (Handing document to witness) 20 -- and if you'd read alone with me, I'm going to 21 read it into the record; and then as I read it, I'm coing to 22 offer you explanations if you do not understand.
23 So if we do enter into an acreement here that we 24 will both have a clear understanding of what the contents 25 require from each other.
. o 4
1 It says, title, " Confidentiality Agreement."
2 "I have information I wish to provide in confidence 8
to the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. I request an 4
express pledge of confidentiality as a condition for provid-6 ing this information to the NRC. I will not provide this 6
information voluntardly to the NRC without such confiden-7 tiality being extended to me."
8 Do you understand that?
9 A Yes.
10 All right.
Q 11 "It is my understanding consistent with its needs - --
E-to meet legal obligations that the NRC by agreeing to'this 13 confidentiality will adhere to the following conditions."
14 Now, this is what the government' agrees to do as 15-part of the bargain:
6 16 "1. The NRC will not identify me by name or 17 personal identifier in any NRC-initiated document, conversa-18 tion or communication released to the public which relates 19 directly to the information provided by me."
20 Do you understand that?
21 We won't use your name,, title, anything else that 22 would -- in our reports that would -- tend to identify you 23 l to a person reading that. '
i 24
: understand that a public release can encomcass i 25 iany distribution outside of the NRC, with the exception of j
. - m- .
5 l
1 other public agencies which may require this information in 2
furtherance of their responsibilities under law or oublic 3 trust."
4 An example of another agency tha't we might be 6
required to furnish such information to woold be, like, 6
if you filed a Department of Labor case, or something like 7
that; they would be entitled to the information under the 8 law.
9 "2. .The NRC will disclose my identity within the <
l 10.
NRC only to the extent required for the conduct of NRC-11 related activities."
3 In other words, those oecole that would be involved 13 in following up -- those NRC employees who would be involved 14 in following up technical allegations that you may provide 15 the NRC might require your name to look for your name in 16 records.-
17 You know, 18 19 ,
M i 21 22 But the NRC agrees as part of this confidentiality 23 agreement to disclose your name within the NRC en a verv 24 limited basis. Only these that need o know will be told, 1
2 A Right.
e 6
1 Q In the inspections -- and that's really what we're 2 talking about here -- that pertain to the technical issues 3 that you raise, that you have raised or will be raising in 4 the course of yout --
that are listed in your affidavit --
5 the NRC is putting together a team.
6 The individual inspectors who will compose that 7 team are not known at'this time. And it's conceivable 8 and even probable that individuals from Region IV, individual.
9 inspectors from Region IV, might be called upon to p?rform 10 some duties involving inspections that could relate to your 11 specific allegations.
12 So I cannot promise you that no Region IV personnel 13 would be involved in inspection duties at Comanche Peak --
14 N Can we go off the record.
15 MR. GRIFFIN: Let's go off the record for a 16 minute.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
' 18 liR. GRIFFIN: Okay, I have inadvertently asked M Mr. Burns to go off the record. We have not gone off the M record. We are going to discuss the details of this on the M record so that this issue, I hope, can be put to bed.
22 I understand your concerns about the ability of M Region IV personnel to maintain confidentiality of witnesses 24 that come to them. I have heard this concern before.
25 Unfortunately, in the realities of the world and
l 7 1 the NRC, we -- the NRC -- have limited staff. Region IV 2 i staff is made up of hundreds of individuals, many or all are 3 -reputable, honest people who do their jobs to the best of their 4 ability. -
5 An indictment by anybody of Region IV in general, 6 7 think, is unfair. .
7 Now, regardless of the concerns of individuals or 8 groups who have interest in the Comanche Peak proceedings, 8 like the Government Accountability Projact or any local 10 'i ntervenors, the NRC is not in a position to exclude our 11 l inspection staff from pursuing their duties on a dav-to-day 12 basis.
13 NRC inspectors will continue to conduct inspections 14 at Comanche Peak.
15 At this time I-have no information or no.t.creement 16 that exists anywhere that says that no witnesses from the 17 Government Accountability Project or any allegations they have I 18 sill be excluded from any of our Region IV inspectors.
18 It is understood that the Government Accountability i 20 Project -- that the responsioility for following up the 21 allegations at Comanche Peak has been switched to reeresenta-U tives from NRR, part of the NR0; and who they select to 23 conduct the inspections is strie:1y up to them. I
{
24 Now, if you have a concern, if GAP has a concern, I 05 y as te specifically following who, specifically, follows up l
I
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1 your allegations, you can -- I'am sure that those pecole will 2 be.gladEto receive a phone call at GAP; and you can excress 3 your.cc:?cern to them; but whether they follow your desires, 4 I have not the authority ner. inclination to commit to that.
5- Do you understand what I am saying?-
6 TEE WITNESS: I understand'what you're saying.
7 But past experience with Region IV as a whole 8 has been -- has not been one to make you want to confide in 9 them.-
10 MR. GRIFFIN: I understand what you're saying.
11 CHE WITNESS: And it's a group allegation. -
2 MR. GRIFFIN: 1 sympathite with your concerns.-
13 .T guess the only hopeful thing I can tell you is 14 that your cc.ncerns are being taken into consideration, your 15 concerns as voiced per GAP; and I think one of the purpcses 16 at present as to the responsibility for investicating alleca-17 tions at Comanche Peak has been put temporarily under NRR, 18 'rather than Region IV.
19 NRR is Nuclear Reactor Researen, it's a Division 20 of the NRC that is responsible for the licensing of these 21 plants. When they get near to licensing, NRR presumably takcs 22 over and is responsible for determining whether a particular 23 plant gets licensed. j l
24 l A this :ine it is .f.y understandine -hat NRR l
3 is primarily respensible for followins no al.;ecations at
9 1
Comanche Peak, rather than Region IV -- is responsible for 2
that.
3 And if you all agree to make your codcerns known 4
to NRR -- as a matter of fact, the man that will be primarily 5
responsible for'the handling of NRCs future inspections at 6
Comanchs Peak should be here in a few minutes.
7 If this proceeds, you're welcome to express your 8
concerns to him, I think he's already aware of them. Who he 9
or his superiors pick to do inspect dons is not in my 10 control.
11 But in a good faith effort I can -- I would 1[ke to U
tell you that every attempt will be made to not only abide 13 by confidentiality, but address your allegations and your 14 concerns on a speedy and equitable basis to arrive at the 15 truth.
16 And I am afraid that there will be limited personnel 17 within NRC who are asking you to take us on good faith.
18 M M: Speaking for GAP, it is my understanc .-
19 ing that Region IV would he're nothing to do with this 3
investigation so far as eyewitnesses go and their identities.
21 And Ms. Garde has expressed to me and the witnesses 22 that Region IV will have nothing to do with that.
23 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't know who has made any cammit-l 24 ments to Ms. Garde as to the exclusion of Region IV personnel 25 in future inscections to be conducted at Comanche Peak, which l
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10 1 come from GAP witnesses.
2 I do not have any knowledge that any such agreement
~
3 has been made.
4 6 We can't proceed until it's 5 cleared ttp.
6 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
7 off the record.
8 (Discussion off the record.)
9 MR. GRIFFIN: Let the record show that' Tom 10 Ippolito of NRR has joined us here.
11 While we were off the record we were able to resolve U the concern by the witness and GAP representative about the 13 use of Region IV personnel.
14 Their concerns have been duly noted.
15 To continue with the confidentiality agreement:
16 No. 3 -- if you'll read along with me?
17 "During the course of the inquiry or investigation 18 the NRC will also make every effort consistent with the 19 investigative needs of the Commission to avoid actions which 20 would clearly be expected to result in the disclosure of 21 my identity to persons subsequent 1y'contacte.d by the NRC." (
22 In other words, as we make our inquiries, we will 23 attempt to do it in such a way that you would not be 24 identified as the person having made the original comolaint.
O Okay.
ah_m_,,__2_____
11 I 1
"At a later stage I understand that even though 2- .the NRC will_make every reasonable effort to protect my 8
identity, my identification could be compelled'bv orders or 4
subpoenas issued by courts of law, hearing boards, or 5
- similar legal entities.
6 "In such' cases the basis for granting this
'7 promise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will 8
be communicated to.the authority ordering the disclosure 8
in an effort to maintain my confidentia'lity."
10 And what this means is that a court of law could 11 compel- the NRC to give your name. They have the legal U . authority to compel.
13 If they did, the,NRC would resist this in every 1*
possible way.
15 '
1 A common way, or an example I might give is that 16 if the court of law or hearing board said, "Tell us who gave 17 ' you the specific allegatier ," and we resist it in every way 18 possibl e, and 5ney still demanded it , we would then attempt 18 to release it only to the authority, itself like a Federal 2 Judge. We'd probably ask him to go in Chambers and say.
l E og "Okay, the person's name is so-and-so; are you ,
on
~~
i i k. satisfied?"
U '
'Yes, I'm satisfied, and it remains confidential."
h U Su: we would de everything in our rower to abide
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12 1 by the confidentiality.
2 The last sentence in that' paragraph says:
3 "If such efforts prove unsuccessful, a representa-4 tive of the NRC will attempt to inform me of any such action 5 before disclosing my identity."
6 What that means is that if the NRC were compelled 7
after all resistance to give your name, we would attempt to 8 let you know in advance.
8 I hope -- I see no reason why this should ever 10 be the case, now or in the future; and certainly not in 11 your case. -
U Okay, now, the next paragraph involves your part 13 in the bargain; which is what you have to agree to for us 14 to reach this contract.
15 "I also understand that the NRC will consider me to 16 have waived my right to confidentiality" -- that means to l have given up your right to confidentiality - "if I take 18 any action that may reasonably be expected to disclose my 19 identity" -- .
20 For instance, if you get uo from our interview 21 today and you go out where you live and you start telling-ao i people, "I was up talkine to the NRC and this is what I
'3 told them," -- and we find out about that; we will, you know be aware that you have disclosed this confidential nature:
l O
you have already released it and broken the agreement.
(
13 1
"I further understand that the NRC will consider me 2 to have waived my rights to confidentiality if I crovide 3 or if I have previously provided information to any other 4 party that contradicts information that I provided the NRC, 5
or if circumstances indicate that I am intentionally providing 6 false information to'the NRC."
7 Do you understand that?
~
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 If I'm lying, you got me!
~
10 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, "we cet you" as far as it would 7, 11 violate the terms of the agreement.
gl Are the terms agreeable to you? Can you abide by 13 your part of the bargain so far as you maintaining your 14 confidentiality?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. GRIFFIN: And is it your wish that we enter 17 into this agreement?
18 I would like to put on the record 19 now GAI's additions as expressed yesterday by Ms. Garde; also m
Kl GAP, since we are representingr- 'in these proceedines, L __
21 consistent also with the' we would like to be 22 assured that the NRC send a copy of the investigative recort 23 when it is completed by this team; and, secondiv, that we 24 ll would expect you to follow the normal C policies and retain '
M all material that you collect during the course of the l
14 1
- ~
1 investigation as it relates to I J
2 In other words, hold onto your notes and other 3 kinds of things so we can examine the basis of'your 4 assumptions and conclusions.
5 I think that was fairly well expressed yesterday.
6 Lastly, I would like to reiterate r L-.
7 concerns concerning Region IV's invescigation personnel, the 8 use of them; and we would like to point out on the record 8 that based on lunderstanding of past experiences u -
9 10 withotherr -
I that have been disclosed to_the 11 utility -- intentionally or unintentionally --f' L
lwould U not like to see Region IV personnel investigate. We understand 13 you cannot promise that; but we would like you to take that 14 into consideration.
15 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
16 In response to your. conditions, the NRC agrees I' r to provide'
.with a copy of the portions of the J
18 report when it is released to the public; that does not include L -18 the whole report,, just that which is released to the public.
M We are prepared to fcilow our own policy, obviously,
}
21 and we will do so faithfully, ,
U We note your concern about Region IV cersonnel.
U But we can make no premise as to what eersonnel will be I, ;
i 1
o4 used in the course of follow-up inspections as to your l l
25 allegations.
15 1
Do you wish to enter into an agreement with the 2
NRC to grant confidentiality?
3 THE WITNESSt Yes.
4 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
5 It says: "I have read and fully understand the 6
contents of this agreament, and I agree with its provisions."
7 Is that agreeable to you? l 0
.THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, I need you to sign right where -
10 it says " Signature of Source of Information". And you may 11 -
~
also date it.
~ ~ ~'
(Witness signing document.)
MR. GRIFFIN:
14 Okay,l ]whydon'tyouwitness?
15 - -
I ! signing document.)
J 16 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
17 (Investigator Griffin signing document.)
18 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, we do not have a Xerox or a 19 copier here, but I will be glad to mail you a copy.
20 You are also entitled to a cocy of the transcrict
- 1 of the proceeding here when it becomes available to us. And o,, ____ ._
~
I will, also, at the same time send you a cooy of the acree-a i ment.
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l would like to go on into the interview now, a5 I plan to follow the affidavit that you crovided for
16 1 continuity. What we will do is we will be taking your 2
affidavit and trying to expandon the information by adding 3
specifics, informacion that will help us perform our 4
follow-up investigations and inspections.
5 EXAM ~ NATION 6
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
7 g I -
a 8 A Yes.
9 Q Would you tell me how you were employed at Comanche 10 Peak Steam Electric Station?
11 A f 12 _
1 13 Q This is for Brown & Root?
14 A This is for Brown & Root. -
15 Q And at the time you left Brown & Root, did M r 28 17 A Yes.
18 Q When did you begin your employment with Brown &
19 Root?
20 A I^ '
21 Q And what was t.e date that you ended your employmen ;
4 I
22 there? '
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23 A l - -
24 Q What was your job -- ,
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17 1 A Yes.
2 ", 7 Q ;
3 A Yes.
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4 Q And what did you( 1 ,as far as to your duties?
5 A 6 .
7 __;- -; ,
8 Q The first allegation ~that you acidressed in your 9 affidavit here relates toI'. 7 10 Could you tell me about that?
11 A (Well,itwas --
1 ms 13 before it was called 14 6]
15 And then after they organi::ed and 16 e as the foreman so 1"
18 -
19 20 , . .
21 22 a.3 Q And what was the time frame for this?
24 A I believe it was in i l .
3 0 Okay.
4
- i
. 10 1
.Just.as a-reminder to you, looking at your 2
affidavit here as it relates to your concerns 3
l -
4 A Ch, I'm sorry.
8 '
Okay, that's right:
6 -
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Q Okay.
I 8 A. .
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16 And'so 17 you know; I thought he was making some special project 18 or'something; you know, just in conversation.
19 And he said, "well, I'm making an I-bolt." i 20 And I said, "What for?"
21 And he said, "Wel l , for a hanger in the reactor."
U And 23 He said, "I don't need anv documentation."
24 I said, 25 e -
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5 And I said,$, j 6
7 Q Who was this that you were talking to?
8 A - -
9 -
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12 okay.
Q 13 14 .
15 .
16 A Okay.
17 Well, it wasn't 18' Okay.
Q 19 A about it, to tel* ~
Then I went to that they 20 were not -- what they were doing; they were not supposed to 21 do it. .
22 And thought -
saic, 23 i said, I
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20 1 have to make'any more."
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And --
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l 6 A. ~ No, I didn't. '
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3 8 Q Who was your supervisor?
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16 And they were going to get'--
17 18 19 20 I
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] You're going on to the next one.
22 THE WITNESS: Yuh, right. I'm sorry.
".3 ga, Ga;yy:N: ! can understand why you're doinc it.
24 Eu: what we .eed to de first is we want to cet all of the 25 specifics we can about the :-bolts; and then we'll co alen:
--x--
21 1
with the others.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 MR. GRIFFIN: We recognize that that's another of 4 your concerns.
5
(_ ,i I'm not that familiar with the 6
site.
And I understand there are a number of fabrication 7
shops. ,
8 So, is there a title to the fabrication shop which 8
you had?
10 THE WITNESS: It's the', _
11
' ?.
U I believe is the real title of it.
13
{ That will help us zero in on the 14 right one. ~
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16
, I don't want to go looking in one 17 place when I'm supposed to look at another.
18 THE WITNESS: you're 19 right.
' ^
23 Yuh.
21 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
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Q And you are sure?
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23 s.
24 A Yes, know they kere. I 25
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3 And.so when -
- well,[u ]was 4 really honest about it, too; becausef i Ihad.
been doing'it 1' L '
5 since{. $been'there, you know.
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8 f 1 1 But (took what we had to~thef Ito ?
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- d 10 let them know what was going on; and they were going to.de i
11 something about it. i 12 And they'd keep telling us -- and I'd keep asking'
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'would keep asking ( l "What are you doing?
14 What's been done about'this?"
15 .
16 '
17 That was just what we got all the time, 18 Q Canyouthinkofaway(
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21 9 fo/ -that's been out no
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23 Q Oc you know of any --
I 24 l A Su: I couldn't -- I wish I had kept seme numners, 25 but...
.:a, .. - - . . . - _ , - . .. - .
'23 1 Q What we're left with there is --
2 A An allegation.
3 Q Wel'1, what we would like'to do is, if there are 4 many of them, we would like to find them to corroborate your 5 statement.
6' Can you think of anything, anybody we can talk to, 7 any records we can look at,I 8 ..
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11 A There's a: -
lout.there called ( ; --
but I u .1 .
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14 (Laughter) 15 Q WouldfL J l--
16 A ,]wouldprobablyknow, because -- thinkinc about
- , - 7 17 it, I believe it was' that was doing,.
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18 Becausef 7 u -
19 Q Who were they,f }andwhoelse?
20 A f 4
7 and--IcanseefL }sowell,but I can't e
21 think of -{
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22 Q okay.
23 A 24 Q Okay. L -
25 If we talked te' L. }doyouthinkthat I
24 1 they would corroborate what you said on the use of this type 2 of: material for vender items?
'3 A ]7 probably would. >I don't know I think that'L
-4 about' )
5 And I know"' a 1not there;L ]went --[ _]lef t; 6-Ithink(*)--(
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7 So, I don't know.
8 I' 7 Well,IL
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10 THE-WITNESS: Yes, sir,
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11 j 1 So, therefore, you wouldn't expect M the paper trail to tell you; would you?
13 THE WITNESS: Well, no, 'you wottidn't, but -- .
14 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
15 If I understood you correctly, you said in the case Q
16 I' L
17 18 19 20 A Um-huh.
21 okay.
Q .
22 That's richt, because you see, there would be -- the i
23 only thing they would have gotten was a phone call and thev 'i 24 !wouldhavewrittenit down en something like a memo, a three-25 part, or stuff like that. And I don't believe they would have
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Q 'Doyouknowofanything[;
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Do you know what the procedure was for that?
10 A No, I can't specifically think of anything that k
11 had to do L>r - _- --
- e. t 12 Q Okay.
13 f 'what should thev
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14 have done when they identified that parts were missing?
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21 22 23 I
24 l 25 Q .
26 1 A- -
2 something so that we could have traceability on it.
8 Q Okay.
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6 A No. -
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8* You know, but it's wrong, you can't do that.
Because I.
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10 Q Okay, now, where we' interrupted you a while ago, 11 12 ~
69speup;- . - .--
~ , rp __ _ _ _ __ __,, m yg w 13 That's what you're saying is your affidavit here.
14 And my question to you is:
15 Do you <now of any other specifics, other than the 16
~
17 18 A Could you show that to me, please?
19 I'm in this paragraph, right here (indicating Q
20 document)?
21 (Pause) 22 A Well, I was wondering about the word 23 because what I've indicated, or what I meant to indicate, 24 was tha: -
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,So what would happen, if on this end of the materia]
16 here (indicating) would be the heat number that was out on 17 Okay.
by the factory. So what would happen is they'd come 18 down here (indicating) and look in the MR that they had 18 pulled ous: of the book --
20 "MR" meaning what?
Q 21 A Material Requisition -- that says, Class-1, here's 22 the heat number for the Class -I material on this tfpe of U I-beam, whatever.
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Q 5 Can peu think of any instances where you were 6 present when this oci:urred? -- and where you can identify 7 to us the people that.were involved, so that we can under-8 stand?
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21 22 Q So you knew that somebody had been tamperin? with 2 it?
24 A : knew se=ebody had :ampered with it.
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24 Q Okay.
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Then they take it, they put it on the cranes.they-12 lift'it back and drop it in laydown yard.
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5 "other' inspector know that this number has been verified'.' ~
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6 Q (
7 s A I believe it was.'
9 MR. GRIFFIN: Do you have any questions? +- ,
10 MR. IPPOLITO:; My background is not materials.;
l 1 11 I have some knowledge about materials. j ,
12 And when we talk about M ;
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) 13 14 That means they can go 15 back and trace what materials were put into that -- into the 16 oven, you know, to mix up that steel and to pour it out.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. IPPOLITO: ! "
L.
19 .. . . -
20 , , _ , , , . , , .
21 22 3 23 That's the only thing I wanted to say to you.
24 Did you know that?
25 THE WITNESS: They may be, but if it were,f
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5 F MR. IPPOLITO:' It could be that the melts 6
signified by that nuniber was a specific dif ferent melt uhan 7
the others; I would guess Class-1 is probably a different.
8 melt.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know. . -
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MR. GRIFFIN: I think we're digressing.herc. debit', 1 11 7 2 but your understanding is the same as mine. '
12
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l 13 Q Let's move on to your -- jj u
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16 g, 17 A Yes.
18 ...
which 19 is on the other end; --
20 MR. IPPOLITO: This is a different shop?
21 THE WITNESSs This is a different shoo.
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22 MP. , IPPOLITO:
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 To -~
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5 THE WITNESS:
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9 The whole' length, the whole spool was out; everything. 4 to They had already- 9 ,
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2 Q Okay.
3 I notice in your affidavit 6 6 A 6 Q Okay. .
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17 A
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l 20 And they said this one is, you know, this one is 21 up -- they gave me the area where it was.
22 Q {
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$ ~al 24 A Um-huh.
25 And, anyway, I
37 1 and then, and.
2 M 3 know, how could a pipe get out like that? )
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9 Let me break in here for a moment:
Q 10 When Q-material,is received on-site, is it not II 12 A Yes, it is.
13 And isn't paper created at that point showing --
Q 14 A Yes.
15 And doesn't that paper travel with that pipe?
Q i .
16 A Well, it does and it doesn't.
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if you went back
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l 38 1
through the MILS, Manufacturers' Item List that were made up 2
in the fab shops, then you might find heat number 40N6498; 3
if you had that and could run it in a computer,' you might
! 4 find that we had -- we showed we installed 997 square feet 5
of it, when, actually, cf that particular heat number on 6
thatpartibularRIRallwegotwas20or40feetofit.
7 Q Okay.
8 A So, really...
9 l Q 10 t p_ "
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A Well, it wasn't against it.
13 Q As long as the heat number was correct, you all felt
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, like you were in accordance or within procedure?
15 A Right.
16 Q Okay.
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18 A
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20 And I told him that my NCR was written -- M
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12 A Really, I thought he was dumb!
13 I really thought he just didn't understand what was 14 going,on.
15 Did he make any statements to indicate what his Q
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10 A Yuh, that's right.
11 - Right there comi'ng off the pool. ]
12 MR. IPPOLITO: Excuse me.
13 Do you recall'.
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14 THE WITNESS: I believe I found it, yes, sir; 15 I believe it's in here.
16 (Pause) 17 Oh, isn't it in here?
18 MR. IPPOLITO: I don't remember having seen it.
19 THE WITNESS: Well,r I
. 20 didn't bring it. I have a little slip of paper.
21 I have it and I 22 23 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 Q Okay. Will you get those to us?
25 A Oh, yes.
, . _ . _ i 41 1 I'm sorry, I thcught, I mean...
2 That's all right.
Q 3 MR. IPPOLITO: Would one of you two make a note of
. 4 that? - IM?
5 MR. GRIFFIN: Because that would really help us, 6 you know. ,
l 7 THE WITNESS ~: Well, if you pull the oackage, 9 -- I guess I better get to that 10 g ,
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18 MR. IPPO'ITO:
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21 THE WITNESS: They do. They do; yes.
22 MR. IPPOLITO: I didn't know that. I 23 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 To disposition them; right?
Q 25 A Yes.
42 i
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16 A yes, 17 g -- locate not only the piece but where it's 18 installed?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you have every reason to believe that it's 21 still on-site?
22 A Yes, sir, it still is. (
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'MR. IPPOLITO: I know what r L J 10 TME WITNESS: Yuh, okay.
11 MR. IPPOLITO: Eut it's hard for me to under Eand 12
-- well, I guess what you're saying is it looked like it was 13 6 all the way around?
14 7
15 I
16 17 THE WITNESS: Well, okay ,- well, now, what I have' 18 seen done, and I didn't see this done -- well, I don't know.
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23 And they all concurred that, yes, that pipe is in 24 bad shape.
25 Now, somehow that pipe ended up down there and it's
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MR. IPPOLITO: Okay.
3
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THE WITNESS:
4 -
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7 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 .
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Q Is there a procedure that allows them to do'this?
9 A No.
10
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11
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12 Q I see in your affidavit here you say: 'M 28 14
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15 Tell me about this?
16 A l
, re ye L a 17 seen them do that. '
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19 When I would see them doing it, .
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t 10 And I measured it. And it measured about 14 or ik inches 11 showing that they had welded that far;I -
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l' And you would have to do an etch to find it.
15 Q How long a piece of pipe was this?
16 A I think we're talking about 12-inch pipe.
17 MR. IPPOLITO: I believe you mean length?
18 THE WITNESS: Length?
19 gg,.IPPOLITO: 12-inches in diameter.
20 How long?
21 THE WITNESS: 4 foot, something like that.
22 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
23 g g 24
__ ~__tammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy L -
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1 Did you ever hear anyone give an explanation as to l 2 why they wanted to salvage this?
3 'A
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4
- 5 Q Is all this work simpler than just getting another 6 spool? ,
7 A I wouldn't think so.
8 But I know that it wau 6 And I know, too, 9 that if you'll go back and look at the package, when you get-10 to -- there's aCMC which also will be able to give you the )
11 number on -- I didn't give it here._
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16 Now, on the drawing and everywhere it's called 17 6 18 Q So somewhere during the revisions they dropped a 19 piece number, and then in later editions they added another 20 piece number?
21 A It became, instead of M , it became M .
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1 MR. IPPOLITO: Just so I understand: do you 2 understand the paper control system'that they are required 3 to save all -- what you call a CMC and all revisions?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, but I und.erstand a lot of 5 stuff gets lost.
,6 MR. IPPOLITO: But they're supposed to?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They're supposed to.
8 MR. IPPOLITO: So in other words, -- Revision 5, 9 they don't throw away -- they're not supposed to throw away 10 Revisions 4 through 17 i 11 THE WITNESS: Right.
~
12 MR. IPPOLITO: They are supposed to have 1, 2, 3, 13 4, 57 14 THE WITNESS: That's right.
15 They're supposed to be in'the package.
16 17 / .
18 19 .
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8 said, asumuREMED3 10 And so I kept going back about it.
11 12 13 g,} /
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16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
17 Q Is still on site?
18 Yes, A is still there.
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Q And 67 _
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21 Q Did L M , indicate where this file was?
22 A Yes M showed it to me. g gave it to me. In fact ,
23 I had it.
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there wasn't that much supervision, so I could do things then.:)
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13 b How, looking back, I think the reason they wanted 14 me to change that was because -- no, that's not the one; no I
(indicating document).
MR. IPPOLITO: Let me ask you a question - M 17 .
18 okay, is it possible by tracking some other paperwork, like 19 the work authorization -- there may have been a work authorizati*on THE WITNESS:
22 L
M 23 MR. IPPOLITO: Oh, it should be in the package?
^4
?- THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, M 25 MR. IPPOLITO: And that thing should say, 6
. . ._...m . : - 1 50 1
or something?
2 -
THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 It's up at the top -- let ne show you what it will 4
look like. -
5 Okay, it's right up here (indicating), it will 6
give you -- it gives you the insttuctions and how much they 7
want it v.
8 - ' I
- okay, then down here. is I
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11 No, not this one, this is just one to give you an 12 idea what it's like.
13 Okay.
14
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t -
11 Yindicating).
18 (indicating) g C 19 - - ' '^~
(indicating) M 20 1 (indicating) 21 22
}p, And that's when I got that, that's when I started 23 looking; 24 9 and kept watching it to see what was happening with it.
25 MR. GRIFFIN: This document we're using is an example
. .g g ~ . . .. .
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1 just as an example; this isn't
+
2 the specific document that.
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3 BY MR. GRIFFIN: .
4 Q So you think the#
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6 A Yes, sir.
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sumameneummie 10
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11 They'll only have the last one. <-
12 And if you'll i
13 it would'be a good 14 idea, particularly "M 15 l ,"
16
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20 MR. IPPOLITO: Let me ask you a question:
21 You say you were the 22
-g 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
24
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25 I a
92
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
2 r ,
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4 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
'5 Q Do you know how the rest of this same spool was 6 used? ,
7 A No, I don't'. I just know where two pieces of it 8 went.
8 I know one of them went in this CT line, and I know 10 another one went in the line in the yard tunnel.
11 Is there any way we can identify them that you can
_. Q ,
3 think of?
13 A I can give you the numbers, the package numbers.
14 Q .Okay.
15 A l
16 17 18 19 20 g gu 21 22 U A Well, I think it was intentional.
24 Q Did anybcdy ever indicate to you tha: the change M was intentional?
t
53 1
I A -
2 Q Who told you this?
3 A 6 ) He said, 4
h iM 6
Y- '
l 8
Q Were you actually threatened by anybody?
8 A No.
10 I was just .
11 Q Do you think would remember this incide t?
12 A I think will, but I doubt that will 13 cooperate with you at all.
14 Q Okay. Let's move on to the --
15 A Infact,(
16 17 MR. IPPOLITO: You know, on that same sub" ject, 18 you have a small sentence here that says, "This incident 19 was not isolated." I mean, you give an example, and then you 20 say: this incident was not isolated.
21 Can you add any more, any other -- obviously, we're 22 trying to identify all that we can here, if they exist?
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, u j 24 --- . . .
25 I
l . , , . , . ,. ,. -
54 1 [ 7 2
3 IMR. IPPOLITO: Has it happened to you beyond what 4 you've recorded here?
5 THE WITNESS: That's the only one that I have 6 gone down and changed the wording on at all.
7
- Emie 8
mm1 8
musumusummuseum -
10 "
MR. IPPOLITO: I don't want to put words in your 11 mouth; is the rest just hearsay on your part?
12 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It's for real.
13 I know -- 6 14 5
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l 16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
17 But you heard of that from some other people, did Q
18 you not?
19 A I heard about this i
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20 21 7
22
- m.3 24 And ,
was really upset. And they had threatened 25 1en2
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Q Threatened (l- -
in which way?
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2 lA ty' .he gate; he 3 ..
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4 And 6)wasreallyupset.
L f
- l. arguing with?
5 Q Who was e-8 f 1
- f A was arguing with L -
L J 7 Q All right. Let's move on.
- 8. The next thing in your affidavit is you addressI L
9 -
10 , would you tell us about that?
11 A Okay. Well,1 12 FC W w s. :-+2 u ac. u "
13 w- www.mvne ~ ~ .v; "
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14 . . . , .
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17 18 i
19 Because I thought they were pulling my leg, you 20 know; I thought, it's just the guys giving me a hard time.
21 And they said, "No, it really is; there's inter-22 office memos "
23 And I said, "Well, let's see?" '
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24 }
So : go in there. They go in, look through their j M l book, and they find -- and a lot of the interoffice memors are'
. 56 1
2' 8 .
4 -
And it was signed by an engineer.
5 ~
But upgrading by IM, there's nothing in -- there's 6 no -- '
7 Did the pedigree of this material, did it still Q
8 identify it as a Class-2 or Class-37 How did the IM change !
8 the paper that. traveled with the material?
10 A There was nothing that traveled with this material.
11 This was an IM. -
12 Just a piece of material with a heat number on it?-
Q 13 14
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Okay.
Q 21 You said earlier, I believe, if I understood you M correctly, that the heat numbers indicate heat class material?
U A That's right.
2' Q 05 d
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57 -
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Q Do you know of any procedure or procedures that l 3 engineers used that allowed them to do this?
4 A No, sir, and I don't know of any traceability on 5 those IM's, either. I don't know what happens to them.
6 They go in the trash'. cans.
7 ,. l i
8 w=nmamsm ,vw,- w m;r:r;yggy :wexerv.mawaw=2w 9 A No.
10 Q Do you know where we can go on site and find these i
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11 IMs.used for this purpose?_
12 g 3 13 s.
14
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15 16 And they plainly state Q
17 c-18 g y,3, 18 Q And you know of ne' procedure (
L 20 21 /
A no, sir.
60 Q Is there a system at Comanche Peak "3 -
94 A It can be upgraded by encineers.
s
_ ..-.- 7. _ -
58 1 know -- there's nothing you can go back to at some later 2
date that tells you that -- if you pull the MIL on everything, I
3 and I had not put the note on there, then you'd say, well, j 4 hey, she's used a Class-2 on this container here that calls 5 for a 1 - material.
{
6 Um-huh. '
Q 7 A Then you say, why did W do that?
8 I can't tell you why. I can't tell you; @
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11 So at a later date I don't think you're going to -
12 i be able to find it as a Class 1 or Class 2. ,
13 MR. IPPOLITO: Youkeptsaying( --
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14 7]
15 THE WITNESS: h3 16 MR. IPPOLITO: If I were to go to M 27
.]
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 And in fact, if you go in there b- h 20 m __
21 . Okay.
22 23 genmusamssumammme. ]
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Q In your affidavit here you refer to the 4' #
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7 A Okay, that was what I told you about earlier, 8 was that --
9 Q About the; -]
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11 Q Okay, we've heard that. .
12 A I think I got cut of sequence on it.
13-Q You also make a statement: (L ,
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16 Is this true?
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A That should be' i i
18 Q What kind of document was this?
19 A Itwasjustf ]
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20 Okay.
Q And you took this to mean that there must 21 have been --
22 A well, '
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8 Q Okay. Well, I think we can run this'one down. l j
h 9 okay, now, let's move into the instance that s 10 involver "
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A Yes.
8 Q Okay. -
10 l A- That we are -- that the inspectors for~some reason 11 neglected to sign of.f._on., ~~~~~~~
12 And I said, '
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17
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18 A Yes, the ones that did it. They were required to.
19 Q And they had neglected to?
20 A Yuh, they were not signed off.
21 Q Okay.
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15 Q Okay. '
16 A And, I said, 17 18
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6 Q Okay. '
7 They wanted-you to sign these things off, put your I 1
8 initials --
A My name.
10 Q Your name, and would that also require.that you l
11 date it?
U A I dated it the day that I did it, that I signed it 13 eff, 14 7 Q Now, do I understand you're- -
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20 21 Excuse me.
22 '
1 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
24 25
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1 SY MR.'GRIFFINi <
1 2
Q one or two,pages?
L 8 A one or two pages.
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A No.
15 Q What did they have written on them?
16 A Okay, they had written on them, like this (indicat-i7 ing), and on this side right here (indicating), up here it I
18 and everything, up here (indicatinet) says,{ -
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2 Q Is there any way that you can direct us to where, 3
or can you tell us where f -- 1
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6 Q And they were for the backing strips in the spent 7
fuel pool?
8 A But what'I signed off on was for 'he t front row of >
8 everything.} .
10 Q Okay. Go ahead with your story?
11 A
Well,anyway,{- J And'later on 12 I i
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Q In your affidavit you also indicate that(
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68 1 ~A Yes.
4 2
Q. 'The supervisors found that,-r- i 3
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5 A I don't see ho'w they could have been,I' L.
6 ,
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But they were going to let me take the fall.
9 Q Somebody down there was critizing you, is that-10 right? '
1 11 A Yuh, well, certainly.
12 Q Who were these people that were --
18 ' A I don't know who ail they were. I really don't.
. 14 15 ;
16 Q Which supervisor was that?
17 A
Atthattimeitwas( L_ -
18 Q Who did they work under?
18 A
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20 Q In your affidavit you say L
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- 4 1 A ! don't know. That was rumor. '
25 Q That was a rumor?
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2 Q .Well, if it wasn't the people that gave you the ;
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3 directions, who --
4 A '
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Q Okay.
8 Now, you said that ! :-
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u 10 A Well, I guess with the -- with whoever it was.
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'smantling the spent fuel pool and finding out if those
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6 7 ~A Right.
8 Q Now, does your concern lie C .- 4 L
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3 13 Now, you're saying when they discovered all this
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18 A I think --
20 Q To represent some of these hold points had been 21 inspected or had been examined?
22 A I'm not for sure what they did.
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"3 What I heard is 24 25
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4, 71 1 then it was okay.
2' Q 3 f ,,
4 A No.
5 And at that point I knew not to pursue it any 6 further.
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7 Q The travellers.and chits were attached?- )
j1 8 A
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9 Q Who could I go and ask that h )-
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, t 1 11 A I don't know. You might ask j 12 - - - ' - - -
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- 13 MR. IPPOLITO:- The only reason why it would be 14 difficulttofindthese{
i 15 16 17 y) 18 THE WITNESS: I should think if they got ASME 19 signatures on them, they should be in the vault, is where 20 they should be.
21 That part should be, because their part took off 22 after this.
23 I think what they were doing was the elevators 24 and attachments, was what they were going to do; because 25 non-ASME is seismic; so it's still not BOP.
. _ ._ . - - - - - - . . _ - - - - - - - = ~ --- - a
.~ -i 72 1
SY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 Okay.
, .Q 3
And there were no weld techs involved in any of 4
the inspections on the liner plate or the backing strips, 5
were there? It was,all Q, right? ~
6 A It was all O.
7 Q Okay.
8 Now, give me some advice based on your knowledge 8 '
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]ifIwenttosomebodyon t; I 10
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wouldn't they be able to produce those?
13 As a group, wouldn't they be together?
14
.A They should be.
15 Q Or would they be in packages that related to each 16 of the plates in the spent fuel pool?
17 A I don't see how it could be in the package for the 18 plate, or you'd have to have two separate file sheets.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Because you're putting two plates together.
21 Q I see, right.
22 A I can tell you this: when you all come on site, 23 what's always happened before, is one, 24 25
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And also that when you'come on site they know 5
ahead of time when you're coming; they've always known ahead 6 of time.
7 Q This is digressing just a minute, but about 6 or 8 8 months ago, did you hearI "
~5that.
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13
, Q Did you hear anyth ng about that?
14 A . es, I did.
15 Q I guess you were not one of the ones that --
16 A No, I've never been called in. Only one time.
17 Q Did you ever talk to any of the people who had been 18' questioned by the NRC?'
l 19 A yes, '
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21 A f.
, 'T 22 Most of them, you know, they didn't give you any 23
)information; that's what they would always tell; because they E4 would come back and tell the bosses they didn't :;ive you any 25 information.
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lCT.,* "Well, I don't.have any problem here, no problem 3;r:
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8 Q It sounds like, 4 '
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A They indicated they had not given any information~ '.
ii 9 i no matter what. Because they were afraid. '
10 E Q Okay. [
11 Let's move on to the next one here, it says,cabout 3 3 (
y 13 1-14 A Okay, what I was talking about is they veuld wanc, 15 like, you had a 3/16 weld, fillet weld --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- okay, and they decided through stress analysis 18 or something that it should be a inch.
19
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. . . ~ . , , . . . , , ., .
22 And unless 1 misunderstood what was supposed to 23 happen, what's supposed to happen is they're supoosed to cut 24 a minimum amount of weld on there. You can't just co up there 25 and put a quarter-inch weld on that uhing.
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1 You've got to put more than that. You've got to e
put --- .
8 Did you ever witness anything like this?
Q 4
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Q And it's your understanding it's a violation?
8 A .-
that's what we did.
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14 15 16 And they'd issue an RPS to go out there and put 17 a quarter-inch' weld on it.
18 g { _
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2o A Yes.
- 1 Q Don't the engineers have the authority to request ao
~~
and have this happen within procedure?
2.3 A Well, the engineers have the authority. I just 24 don't think it was right.
25 Q Well, we'll have to evaluate that.
76 1 A That's a concern of mine, I didn't think it was 2 right.
3 Q I see your concern.
4 It would help -- could you identify the' area or 5 the pipe where they have done this with the CMCs?
e A Yes, sir.
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l l 17 And the CMCs were prepared by the engineers Q
18 specifying t,his was what was to be done? -- that there was 19 to be additional weld material added?
20 g yes, 21 Q There are many of these, and if we, looked at 22 the -- if we pulled these records, we'd have no trouble findina a3 l
an example?
24 A Right.
25 g .m asking now, are there numerous examples?
, 9*
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77 1 A There are numerous examples -- I'm trying to think r .+
2 on'the CMCs -- I wouldn't worry about - " ""^; ^~~
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5 When we started out, they called them " red 6 packages". And we started out doing the program that way.
7 * * * " ~ ~ " "
And then they said am=:m w.- ....,.r. 7 , ,,,,, .
9 10 And that one didn't quite go, so they set up.
11 another one; and we did.it again.
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- 13 Q Okay.
r 14 Another issue you raise in here is;_
15 3wouldyoutellmeabout that?
16 A Well, I wish I could give you an example, I could 17 give you a number or something.
18 Um-huh.
Q 19 Anyway, .
J
_, I 21 A Yuh.
S Q -- dig them out, repair them?
U A Okay -- it's several times I've been ever this 24 l today, so I forget where I've been.
M Q okay.
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1 A' Okay.
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11 Q And who are weld techs?
12 A Well, what they decided to do, because we were 18 finding so many discrepancies, that they were going to take l'
a weld tech and send them ahead of us to identify problems:
15 and then they could turn it in and the craft would go ahead.
16 And that way they didn't have to do paperwork; see?
17 Q But these are Q-systems, Q-materials?
18 A Yuh.
18 Q And yet they're bringingf * , .
. mas 20 '
- 1 A Yuh.
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^3 A Lock at it ahead of us.
24 ^
., s Q --
speed it up?
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N 1 'Who was directing that this be done?
Q 2 A f-L 3
Q What time frame did this occur?
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4 A - -
J 5 What systems?
Q 6 A ',
u ] -
7 Q This was just a common cractice?
8 A
- It was all of'them.
, .s.:amazau.nwur e.aan=surax.cgmWzarc1am"msryug,;a,xm,gmay 10 uma"~hv =#" " ~' ""D=m . -
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12 Q So the weld techs were preparing irs on deficiencies
- s. 13 they found?
14 A No. They just wrote little' notes.
15 Q Did they put a hold tag?
16 A .. No.
17 Q Were they applying reject tags?
18 A yo, 19 Q They were just pointing out the. deficiencies?
20 A Craft would follow them doing what they pointed out.
21 Well, things happened, you know, in a system when 22 you're doing something like that, well, then they started U
igetting the drawings that we had already completed.
24 And so there we had either already bought somethine 25 off or rejected it, and they had it; and they would go up
, yq l
80 I
there -- we'd bought it off; they would reject it; and 2
gg,yed come back in and weld it; and'then they'd call us to 8
come up.there and look at the weld.
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6 7
A No, it was just'something they decided it'd be a 8
good idea.
8 Q Did the weld techs sign off on the weld sheet?
10 - po, A ~
11 <
Q It was kind of,'
- 1-12 A Yes. (Nodding affirmatively) 13 g . Help me here because I'm not familiar: some of the 14 systems have hold points for the welds that were being 15 performed?
16 A If they hadn't had weld techs doing it, ves.
17 18 ..__,s -
19 20 The way they were doing it,I -
~
21 _
nn Q GS.ve me an example: can you remember some system 23
-- you say it was done in ceneral -- but, can vou remember a 24 specific system' 2s -
A , l
4 ,
I 81 l
1 -
.t-2 Q Okay.
3 When?
4 A C. ls 5 Q When did this come to an end?
6 A As far as I know, they're still doing it.
7 h ] Can we take a 3 or 4 minute break?
8 (Recess) 1 9 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. !
10 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
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1 16
]Isthat richt?
17 A Yes.
18 Q 19 A Yes, sir.
20 (
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22 23 9
24
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25 Q Do you know - r[ -- how it was
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1 dispositioned?
2 A No.
3 Q You never went back and looked?
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4 A
- w. . we I couldn.'t.
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7 8 But we could go and look . ~~
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10 A Yes.
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-- ~ -- ~ ~ 11 -- and it should be there, and it should be Q
-- - - 12 dispositioned by now?
13 A Yes.
14 Okay.
Q 15 We may have already covered this, but what time 16 frame were we talkinet about for this particular incident?
17 18 A j, _
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Q ]
19 A [.
]
- Q I l
21 A I think I can get a copy of that. I was goinc to
-- 2 do that, --
U ,
Q We can get a copy of it. !
l 24 l A Okay.
25 And find out what haopened to it. But I know it
__ __ _._m_ _ _ _ _ _ _ . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ' -
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6 7 -Q Okay.
8 You indicate here another[,,u j..;srs.n=r>M N EA .
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11 A Yes, sir.
. 12 According to procedure, if a final NDE on the weld 13 data card has been bought off, then if there is an RCS to be 14 issued, if for some reason the weld failed, an RT, then, 15 you are to -- the RPS is assigned QC hold point, r- -
16 l .
It was not good 17 ,
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} It busted. ,
18 I .
l,
. a 19 I have that here somewhere.
20 6 .
i 21 -
22 So in order to cover -- to me, in c: der to cover M what they had done, f and they told that they 24 , they went te .
W en
- y .o M wanted him to line through date of the 14th, and put down the I -
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M i 13 But the way it looks now, I've a bad problem.
14 And I said -- he said, u
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16 I said, F
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17 Well, come to find out, on that AF system, --
18 Q What is "AF"?
19 A Alternate feedwater.
20 We have a directive, I understand, from the NRC 21 that we are to RT the AF and CT systems, I believe.
22 Anyway, it was a legitimate RT and included in the U ;
package.
I 24 I said, L
25 ,
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for repair work that we did it out of procedure.a1 3
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16 contacted dtwice, called' }twice, and went up the hill 17 once to see about it.
18 And 19 RT, it doesn't a
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20 sof did change the date.
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21 So with that I went ahead and wrote the thing up.
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A Yes, sir.
3' Q .And it was put into the system; rd.ght?
4 A I have a copy of it; yes.
6 E Q okay, will you provide that to us?
j 6 A Yes, sir.
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" 11' Q Are you convinced that . '.aknew that by changing 12 thatnumberthat[_)wasmakingafalseentry?
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15 -And[ ]came to me andI 7said,I L a
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19 Because they came in the next day,b-i 20 -. .-
g 21 And said, " Wait a minute: you and I both knou. -
. did what
( ; 12 he was told to do." I said, "where the mistake was made M was with wel: eng neering. Tney r.new, they had the paper ri=ht:
t I 24 in front of them, telling them that that final NDE -- they
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16 17 And I said, "Oh, boy."
18 go' , turns around to me again,#
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8 A ) knew;[]knows. Oh, yuh,
] knew.
4 Q ]Knewitwaschanged?
6 A Yuh,I.] knew.
6 To make it right?
Q 7 A Yuh,'}knewit; L
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8 Why was f Q .
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9 A
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10 By who?
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3 AndI* lcame up to me and says,f:
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- 22 then I was notified when I objected to that, n
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2 An.: I knew then that if I didn't leave that they 8
were going to discredit me in some way.
4 I They had done it --
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9 10 11 That's just strange to me out of all the parking 12 lot, and I know the guys that go out there and light-up as 13 soon as they get there--and( )theonetheygot.
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. too.
16 17 1
18 19 20 I 21 And
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4 can get. j 5 And you believe this was because he was doing his Q
6 job?
7 A Yuh. BecauseI 8 f
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, ._. __ 1 me- r . r.19 10 But don't write them on anything important. ..
11 Anything that's really important, anything that's going to U hold them up.
13 And then, of course,
}--weallknow 14 I 7 a a 15 Q Anyway, after that, various events occurred in 16 which they complained about you being out of your work area, 17 and you eventually gave two weeks' notice?
18 A
Thatwasafter(
19 20 21 U Okay.
Q The events you've identified that we've just beer t
24 I talking about, l
93 1 ; A Yes.
2 Q Okay.
3 i Partially, not all of those.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, not all of it.
8 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
6 Q Well, I'm talking about this last incident?
7 Did that lead up to your leaving?
8 A Yes.
e 9 0 You make a general observation in here
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11 U A Yes.
- 13 Q You said that 14 15 A Yes.
16 Q And they told you not to look at that hanger?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Who was the goldhat, do you remember?
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19 A No. I want to say it was<L (but I know it
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20 wasn'tf I've always thought of #
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3 It's just a thing. I'm not the only one that it's 23 happened to. I think it's happened to just about every 24 out there, t
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J 13 Q Tell me about w 14 7 15 A I can give you -- I can show it to you.
16 Q Okay. Will you give us a copy of that, too?
17 g y,3, 1B Q Okay.
19
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- 1 Q Did you ever receive any reply?
! A No, sir.
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4 Q Did{ ] tell you that he -- did {}
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6 A He said that he was very sorry that I was leavina.
7 He said that he had been very impressed with me ever since .
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A Nothing.
t 21 on Q Do you" U A I really -- I didn't feel like it was safe for me 24 to continue working out there.
25 Q Did anybody threaten you in )
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3 A Not physically. Like I stated before, my fear 4
was that they would discredit me in somes way.
6 Q Your repu.tation?
6 A Ruin my reputation.
7 Q Affect your future job opportunities?
8 A Yes. , _ y -. m m .,, g a g;. 4 9 You say in your affidavit Q e to .~. . :. . i ___ .. . . . , _ _ . - . . . . . .
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11 12 13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you attend this meeting?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now, you said, again, that you did not exactly hear 17
]saythis;butyouheardfromothersthat[
3
}had 16 said that people who talked to GAP would be fired?
19 A That's what I heard from others.
20 Q Is there anybody you can direct me to, or tell me 21 the name of,'
22 J A : can't.
24 Q Or was it Just the ceneral --
25 A It was just the ceneral talk, like.
98 l
1 Q When you attended this meeting, did you hear most t
2 of what I was saying? i L - .
l' 3 A No.
4 Q Was it, like, too big an area?
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15 A Well, I would think' '
say no.
16 Are you convinced that !
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18 A Oh, like I said, I didn't hear it.
19 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, as far as I can see, that 20 covers the specific concerns you have. I know you're going 21 to and l
22 it will probably be very necessary for the NRC representatives, i
U who handle your various concerns - you know, there's too ,
l 24 many of them and various experts will need to address these l
25 various concerns; people that we have in the NRC, to look into!
l
1 l
, i I
99 !
i 1 these areas.
. 1 2 And there may come a time when further questions 3 will need to be asked. May we contact you and ask you these-4 questions? -- to get more specifics, or ask other cuestions, 5 like over the phone, or something like that?
6 TEE WITNESS: How will I know it's you?
7 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, probably the best way is to 8 ask -- is to ask anybody that calls and identifies themselves 9
as NRC representatives -- the best thing to do is just to
~
10 call back collect.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
M MR. GRIFFIN: You know, that's the simplest way I'vei 13 always found whenever I want to make sure I'm talkinc to 14 whoever they say.
15 But we probably will need to do follow-ups. And
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16 you can ask them. You know me, now, Brooks Griffin, i 17 kr. Tppelihe] and you can ask them; anyway, satisfy yourself.
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19
}Besuretocallusifyouhaveany 20 questions.
21 MR. GRIFFIN: But we really need a,n opportunity to 22 ask follow-up questions. I have no reason to believe that 2
wehaveaskedyoueverysinglequestientodaythatweprobalbv{
24 need to ask you. '
l 25 '
THE WITNESS: Well, I know that there's things that l l
100 1 '
I thought about later that I should have said scmethine 2
about and wrote down, but then I didn't bring them, so... .
3 (Laughter) 4 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
5 Well, if you have additional information, ;
6 documents, or anything like that you would like for us to have!
7 a look at, you might include them with these things you all 8
have already have committed to giving to us; and maybe a i 9
written explanation or something like that. Because that's I q
2 our job, is to inspect these plants, investigate trouble.
H THE WITNESS: There is one I wanted to talk to you 3 about. I e
.t U Now, I don't want to use this '. n ame , because i !
- - i 14 I know.
,does not want to become involved any more. .was j 2 terminated out there. I i
16 '
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l 2 [--wastostaytotallyout of it; because, N IheI,said, it's too dangerous. 1 i M
' l But what got
' terminated is ,
22
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l 24 They brought --
of cours?. they got rid of our 3 people, you know, the people that were therer they cet rid of.
1 I
101 1 i And,' . said that got --
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Andwhen(jsawwhatitwas,{}wentto--he C 1 7 went tog , and them, and he said, "Look," he said, e e -!
8 t - -- and{
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~, w - L 9 better check on these people. The' education they're tellina you they have, they don't have.
10 All they have.is a 11 ' symposium or something_or.some docitment they sent off for."
L2 MR. GRIFFIN: . .
13 ,-
14 THE WITNESS: These were and stuff.
15 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: That they brought in.
17 And this is whatf $said, t
18 So afteri t
~ did that t ',said, "All I'm telling you e
19 is before th5v shut that terminal to South Texas down, 20 you better get on there and get this l information; because j 21 these people are coming up here with documentation that 22 - s- 1 mean, they've got the-little-squares on the wall, like, J I've got a bunch of squares, t o o .- and it looks good on the 24 wall; but it's not worth tiddleywinks, you know." q I
25 And --
. . . . - l l
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MR. GRIFFIN: But as these people came on site, 2
did they not have to take tests?
3 THE WITNESS: They'were corporate level-3's.
4 They just trained, got training.
6 MR. GRITFINt Do you know the names of any of these 6
guys?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I do, but right now -- they're still there, M .
9
{ ' You say they were all in training 10 at one time? !
11 THE WITNESS: They were in training, trained them 2
as inspectors.
13
{ $ They trained them as inspectors?
I' THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
'5
~
And also when they gave_the level-3 test to a 16 bunch of people out there that were level-2 inspectors, 17 what I was told -- and I was told this by one of the 18 lead men, and he was mad because they didn't include him 19 and let him take the level-3 test -- that they cave them the 20 test right here and the answer sheet right there (indicatina).
21 But he was not one.cf the ones m
taking the test?
03 i THE WITNESS: No. But he was anery because he had I
24 been there for se long and they didn't include him and let 3
him take the level-3 test.
- .o
- )
'103 1
But I think the staff about the guys' certification,j 2 that would be easy enough for you all to check.
3 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. l 4 i l) have I or any other NRC representative here L
5 threatened you in any manner or offered you any reward 6
in return for this statement?
7 THE WITNESS: No.
5 MR. GRIFFIN: Have you given this statement freely 9 and voluntarily?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 KR. GRIFFIN: Is there anything further that you 3 would like to add for the record?
13 THE WITNESS: I think not.
14 MR. GRIFFIN: is there anything that you 15 would like to add?
16
{ _ No, other than if
~ .
17 remembers other concerns -- in other words, we don't 16 necessarily believe this is comprehensive; that.' lmight a
19 remember in the future items; and will bring them forward then.
20 KR. GRIFFIN: Sure. Thc NRC is always there and 1 i
21 that's our business to receive and review and inspect and 3 identify problems in this area. Somebody can direct us to 23 problems, then tha: makes our job easier. t 24 TEE WITNESS: I used to keep a log of everythine, u
104 1
2 l
3 MR. GRIFFIN: That's all. Thank you.
(Whereupon,I L
3 6
7 1
8 9
i 10 11 12 13 .
14 15 l
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CERT!T*CATE OF PROCET0r::35 105 \
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8 This is to certify tha: the a:. ached proceedi.-ejs before the
, ::RC C0letISSION ,
In the matter of: COMANCHE PEAK, CONFIDENTIAL INTERVIEW s
~
Date of Proceeding: 1 Place of Proceeding': ) ;
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript for the file of the Commission.
ic James R. Burns, Jr.
If Official Reporter - Typed t2 O s' s
, }f jf(W
* "- f.fipff f W . _ 7 officiad Reporter - Si,qniture
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. A550CIAi!5 REctSTERED PRCFES$'3N AL R EPCR7tRS
. NCR FCLK. VIRGINIA
1 l
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1 BEFORE THE 2 NUCLEAR P2GULATORY COPJtISSION 3 - ------- ------x 4 Testimony of: :
5 , _
6 ---------------x 8
j 10 The above-named witness gave testimony in 11 an investigation before the Commission, pursuant to 12 agreement.
13 14 At'PEARANCES:
15 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
16 BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator MARK E. EMERSON, Investigator
'O t - -
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXEIBI' 1-A
1
_P .R _O _C _E _E _D _I _N _G _S 2 6:32 p.m.
3 MR. GRIFFIN: For the record, this is an d Last name is spelled interview of 5
The location of this interview is E 6 )
7 Right.
8 MR. GRIFFIN:
-( is that' 9 right?
10 Do you want me to answer you?
11 MR. GRIFFIN: Let's see. The date is[
12 13 Present at this interview are 14 for the NRC, Investigators Mark Emerson and Brooks 15 Griffin.
16 This interview is being transcribed by a 1
17 Court Reporter.
18 I need yco to rise and rcise your 19 right hand. I'm going to swe:ar you to the contents of your i
20 statement. ;
21 Whereupon, 22
~
23 was duly sworn and, upon her oath, testified as follows:
=
1 24 MR. GRIFFIN: Thanx you, i 25 //
3 I
i
1 EXAMINATION 2 SY MR. GRIFFIN:
3 Q I 4 interviewed you and the purpose for 5 requesting this re-interview with you is to go through a 6 portion of your testimony and either clarify or, hopefully, 7 if I can jog your inemory add to the record as to what you 8
recallabout(
9 10 M is Jthat correct? )
\
11 A That's right.
12 Q 13 A 14 O All right. Now, I'm going to go slowly 15 through your testimony. I'm not going to be reading all 16 of it into the record, except to convey to you that area of 17 the testimony. And then I'll put some questions to you.
18 I've written some notes to myself, and I hope 19 to-- You know, if you have any additional information, I 20 hope to solicit that from you to add to what you've already 21 given me, just in addition to what you've already given me.
22 According to the record, M 23 m
2.
25 ammmmmmmmumme
1 A No.
2 Q Okay.
3 A I thought it was sometime 5 I don't even remember the date.
6 Q Is it earlier or later?
7 A Yeah, it was earlier.
I 8 O Okay.
9 A It was earlier, around the first of the year. !
10 Q i
11 A uh-huh.
12 0 I think at the time I interviewed you- before 13 14 A Uh-huh.
15 0 Is that number still valid?
16 A That number is still valid, as far as I know.
17 0 Now, also, somewhere else in this testimony, 18 you mentioned the 19 20 A (Nodding head.)
21 0 22 Or how did it work?
23 A 24 25 I couldn't tell you who did how many. l l
m
1 0 Okay. You wouldn't have done 2
Q, 3 A No, I didn't do all of them, d Okay. One thing that we were not able to Q
5 clarify in the first interview is actually 7 -
8 Since I've interviewed you, have you come 9 across any information or talked to anybody that has helped 10 you clarify who was actually giving you the instructions?
11 A No, I don't need to talk to anybody because 12 I was the one that was given the instructions. I know.
13 0 I know, but the point I'm trying to make here 14 is: At the time I talked to you before, I think you 15 attributed a lot of the instructions given to you t is 17 Now, I'm telling you-- If that's still your 18 recollection, I'm telling you that, you know, since I've 18 had the opportunity to go out and do the investigation, 20 apparently, based on the testimony I've received, @ _
21 1 22 23 b
25
u 1
1 0 Uh-huh.
2 A And 4
musumummmmmmmmmmmmmermmur_ - .
1 5 Q Until Monday? l 8 A Uh-huh. ;
7 0 8 A (Nodding head.)
9 Q Okay. What I want to focus on right now, 10 though, is exactly what instructions you were given.
11 and 12 you were also provided with chits; is that correi::t? I 13 A I was provided 6 ,
14 0 ,
15 A 16 O Had somebody already assembled or put these 17 together in some way? _
18 19 W) 20 A I 21 22 _
23 Q Okay, 24 A When I first came into work 25
- - am--
3 And g said that there was approximately 4 . .
5 That's where the 7
8 I thought that g meant we were going to be 9 installing that many snubbers that night or something. I 10 didn't understand what it was. And so, I said- - I said 11 something about "We're going to install that many snubbers 1
12 tonight?" ~
13 And g aaid, "No," h said, will ;
14 take you over there and show you-- and and they'll i 15 show you what's to be done."
16 And so, they did.
II 17 Q So, both--
1B A Do you want me to continue the story, or 19 do you just want to just ask me questions or-- 2 20 Q well, actually, I know the story rather well. 4 21 But the point that I was tripping over when I first started 22 reviewing your testimony and going out and talking to other 23 people, I came aware from our first interview with a belief 24 that M was the one primarily doing-- that gave you 25 the specific orders on how you were to handle. You know,
)
1 those chits reflected what the traveller was about, I was 2
talkingtof was talking, and was j 3 saying, "Well, this covers it. All you have to have is the d chit, and -
5 So, in my mind, ; was talking to M more 6 tha 7 Q Oka'y.
8 A And I was listening to[ @ ,more than 9 ' g of course,' was listening to" }
10 so--
11 Q I understand.
12 When you' 13 14 A Uh-huh. [
l 15 0 --you initially indicated that you-- to j 16 and the others in the area that you i
17 weren't sure what the chits represented; is that correct? j 18 A That's right.
19 0 At the time thatyou started the project, 20 after you were given the instructions by the supervisors, 21 what was their explanation that the chits represented?
22 A 2,
2.
2s esmum .
C.. _- .. --.
1 because you had concerns about this. You did not-- You had )
Il r
2 someveryrealconcernsastowhetherwhatyouweredoingwas'l f l 3 correct or not.
4 And I'm telling you that based upon my 5 investigation, the explanation given to you apparently was e given to you by And I came away from the first 7 interview with the'. understanding that was the one 1
8 that was doing most of the talking or giving most of the I l
J 9
l directions.
10 A Well,--
Would you say it was accurate was 11 Q 12 the one that--
Well, g j 13 A l
14 0 --did most of the explaining? )
15 A Yes, M was-- as doing the talking.
16 But as was my supervisor and I didn't know 17 what capacity as operating in, then I was listening 18 to 19 Q Okay.
I 20 A What % told me.
21 Q So, what % told you would ultimately be ,
22 what you thought was required of you, then.
23 A Yes. ,
24 And when I was talking about the problem 1
because I didn't believe that 25 that _
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, ., i t #1 3 nothing to do with me. They were only there M nf3 1 1
4 .
5 and I talked about it, and we-- we 6 knew-- we felt that it was not what the chit was about,,
V 7 the signof f of the'. travellers. We didn't' feel like it was 8 for those welds. We felt like it was for the weld-- the.
9 back of the welds on the channels.
10 Q The backing strip?
11 A The backing strip. ;
)
12 O Okay. Now, you think the chit represented 13 the backing strip, but some of the spaces or some of the 14 lines had been left blank on the travellers were for other.
15 than first fitup? The first column? Were there other 16 columns on some of them--
17 A Yes, there were. Yes.
18 Q And some of th'ose were blank. %g j
20 3 21 A On all of it, yeah. t 22 O Okay. Now, if you can tell me, when you 23 expressed your concern about M j 24 M-25 , what was their response to you L_ I
]y ..
!, y 1 A Well, at first, M. said that--
that they 3 -
t 4 And I said that
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9 They were not a control document. I could 10 see that easily. There was a box full of chits over in the 11 ! corner in the millwright shop.
t 12 _ -U Did you recognize the QC inspector's signature' 12 ' on those- chits?
y 14 li.
A only one. Well, there were several that I I
15 did recognize, but only one that was still on site. And that 16 was c, -
17 0 Uh-huh.
18 A so,
.n -
19 ..
l 21 g 22 They didn't know-- did 23 not know what it was for exactly. They couldn't tell me 24 what it was for, really. Seemed to me like they were just 25 guensing as to what it was for, i
1 Q Now, was it at this time that you and 1
2 looked at the drawings?
3 A Yes.
- Q ,
5 And did you and'.,
b 7
i A Yes. We felt like that was what it was for.
8 Okay. Now, once you and determined Q
8 this, did you go back and convey this feeling to ummeier_
11 A came in-- 'were in the 12 13 ,
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16
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17 Let me see if I understand you on that.
0 18 decided that the first column for these 18 five-column travellers, the first column was reserved for 20 both fitup and cleanliness on front and back? Is that what 21 you're saying?
l M A well, we thought that-- that the first line l l
23 could not be signed off per that chit because we felt like 24 the chit was for the backing strip. And as the traveller 25 went on into PT and vacuum box and everything else, then i
l
1 it would had to have been-- the traveller would have had 2 to have been addressing the front weld because once the back 3 weld was made, you couldn't get to it to penetrant it and 4
vacuum box it.
5 Q But in a lot instances-- When I M l
6 , a lot of instances it was the 7
e ammanuseum 9 Mow, I know, some of the 10 other columns. You know, l 11 A )
12 O But the one!
13 1
14 A Right.
1e Q-16 A 17 , ;
,e Q .
19 %
i 20 A ,
21 Q Now, tell me again what you and 22 what you two believed n
24 2s
1 o Okay.
2 A _
3
~
5 ,,
l l
l 10 Q Okay.
11 A Especially when it was for# 6 I
~ i 12 l 13 0 Okay. Let me ask you a kind of general -
14 question.
15 During the time you' 16 17
~
18 1 19 A No.
20 Q You had never run into a situation like this 21 before--
22 A No.
23 Q u
25 A No,
I i
1 Q Was there any-- Besides looking at this 2 drawing--
3 Well, let me go back to what I was on a while 4 ago. -
5 When you and locrked at this drawing, 6 was there anything else-- was there any other information 7 that you reviewed,'other than the drawing, that led you to 8 believe that that first column was being reserved for the- !
l 9 seam weld or the final weld?
10 A No. Just the layout of the traveller in 11 general. And also the fact that I didn't want to be M 12 13 14 -
15 And I didn't want to do it because I felt 16
] And I was afraid 17 that they'd put me in the Federal pen for twenty years.
18 Now, it might be a rest.
19 Q Okay. Now, after you left 2o 21 22 Do you remember who that was?
23 A Uh-huh. {
24 Q Who was it?
25 A It was Or,
1 he was-- l 2 1 3 Q And you said they sent M over to help 4 you.
5 A Yes. That was after came 6 in and told me 8 0 Do you remember which one said that?
9 A (Pause.)
' 1 10 Q 1 11 1 12 1 13 A 14 0 Was it just a recommendation by Because 15 %]wasn'treallyinvolvedingivingyouthedirection.
16 A No, % wasn't. But knew that I was upset.
17 I guess everybody in the whole place knew that I was upset.
18 And % said that it might be a good idea, if I wanted to, 19 to add that note to it to cover my ass.
20 0 Okay.
21 A p 'i So, I did.
22 Q Okay. So, it was more of a suggestion from 23 g ---
24 A Oh, yeah.
25 0 --rather than a supervisory--
~
l 1
A Yeah, it was just as a friend as telling 2 me, 3 0 Okay.
4 -
Exactly when did you agree to proceed with 5 this project? ,
6 A came over and told 7 me that
-l 9 And then they said that was coming J
10 over to help me. Then, I went back over there. And I felt j 11 I hai exhausted every avenue that I had open to me not to 12 sign them off.
13 -
And it was apparent that they were not going 14 to a5 sign the job to someone else, but they were going to j 15 continue that I do it.
16 17 Okay.
Q 18 A I don't tink I had any choice.
19 So, was not there when you had these Q
20 discussions [
21 A No. M jwasn't there.
22 Q g came later, and then you told 23 24 A yes, 25 Okay.
Q
.a.- .
1 A Yes, I told him abou- it then.
2 Q 3 -
4 -
A Yes. ,
i 5 0 6 A Yes, it did.
7 Q So,'.you assigned-- In other words,{ M i 8 i 10 11 3 12 A Right.
'13 O Did you do this for that purpose?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 0 Okay.
16 A I-- If there were' i 17 18 19 20 21 Q One thing I want to ask you, I want to get 22 your opinion here:
23 25 A No, I didn't.
1 0 --in the matter?
2 What I'm trying to do, I don't want to pu:
I 3
words in your mouth, but at the same time, in this type of 4
investigation, the way that I'm pursuing this, the conten-5 tion that I'm looking at here is, really, what was on your 6 mind or what was in your mind at the time that you agreed 7 to do the project 'that you were told.
8 Obviously, you had already voiced concern.
8 You'd asked questions. You'd requested additional informa-10 tion, like talking to having them talk to 11 g 12 14 [.
15 A Yes. I felt like I was a prisoner.
16 Did you feel like you had any choice in the 0
17 matter at that time?
l 18 A Well, I felt like the only choice I had 18 would be to just walk out and quit. T 21 23 On the other side, how-- I'm asking your 0
24 What position-- Or, how did and opinion again.
25 put this to you? I mean, how strongly were they
1 trying to get you to do this? What was their demeanor?
2 A Well, I would say was-- and 3 both were angry because 5 -
6 -
at least call 7 and find out about it.
8 And that's when I-- they left. I thought-9 that's what they were going to do. t
'o l
l 11 And then they came in and said that they were I 12 not going to call That was the'first thing that
]
13
% told me. %said, "We're"--]
14 Q Who said that?
15 A did. Said that they were not 16 going to call and that 17 I 18 But I guer,s when g told me that they were .
21 22 gammmmai !
23 And then g said that 24 25 Q Let me drop back a little bit. I'd like l
c
1 your opinion again.
2 When you
=
4 -
5 A Oh, ent on in inspection.
6 Q Your last contact with did g ffer 7 to you his opinion.as to whether what they were asking you 8 to do was right or wrong? Did g give you his opinion about 9 that?
10 A Possibly, $ did. Because we were both 11 talking about it, and I was really upset because I was 12 afraid I was going to go to prison.
13 0 Well, do you recall E conveying to you what 14 E opinion was? Do you have any recollection of it?
15 A Yeah. I b'elieve opinion wan like mine, 16 and_helwas thei 17 18 10 0 All right.
20 A see,'I think ad originally been )
I 21 22 23 0 Okay.
24 Now, when I interviewed you before, you said 25 you'd heard a rumor that following-- Several days after you
)
1 you heard
)
N 3 A Yes.
. 0 Do you recall having any name's attached to 5 Did anybody ever identify those people 6 to you?
7 8 A
@ as there. That's what you're asking 9 me. Do I know who all was there. -
10 0 (Nodding head.)
11 A As I remember, g g as there. g 12 was there. Andgwas t'2ere.
13 It seems like they said was there.
14 0 was this in a meeting?
15 A Yeah, there was a meeting.
16 Q And you heard a rumor about this meeting.
17 A Yes, yes.
18 And that somebody in the meeting discussed 0
19 v
20 A yes, 21 Q Okay.
22 A I think the person that told me that was 23 I think 2'
that's who told me. I 25 0 Would g have been in attendance in this i
1 l
1 meeting?
2 A I don't know if g was or not, but g was 1 3
real close friends with )
1
! g So, % was-- You know, always knew what was j 5 going on, and he'd tell And then would tell 6 somebody else. So....
7 Q Okay.
8 A When all this was going on about me 10 11 13 I've talked to them.
0 14 A So, there were others that were there.
15 g pow, 16
, a .,
l ,
3 -
17 o
2 '
21 g 22 Q Uh-huh.
23 A Yes.
24 And you understood your instructions to mean C
25 that you E-- - - - - - - - - - - - - ----_ - - - - - _ _ _ - - _ _ _
2 A yes.
3 Q so, 5 A All of it.
6 Q I see, b
8 If I'm remembering correctly. Does 9 that sound right?
10 A Not had didn't.
11 Q Okay. Not M The 6 J
I 12 A _O A Yes.
13 Q The N had various columns for-- 1 i
14 A Penetrant and vacuum box, yes.
15 Q I wish I hed-- Maybe it would have been 16 better if I'd brought allf
'N .'.
de '
' ^
17 :
_' c- . . - Je ' . ;- .
18 18
.a 20 A yes.
I 11 Q f _
M But your instructions, or your understanding I 23 of your instructions from .were that,you 2< ,
2s a m:
i l
1 1
Q And the basis was the 6 l 2 A Right.
3 (Pause.) Some of the columns I d -
.. already. ,
5 Q 6 A 7
sammmmmme 8 Q What did that mean to you?
9 A Well, at the time, I figured that--
. 10 11 0 But it was handwriting, wasn't it?
12 A (
\
f 15 o 16 l 17 A 18 ;
19 Q Okay.
20 A ,
21 0 _M ,one of my reasons that I wanted to M re-interview for this was that, as I told you before we 23 started the interview, there was, as a result of my 24 investigation-- I'll just tell you this: doesn't 25 have a particularly cl' ear recollection of the events S
\
l 1 described, where has a very clear recollection of the 1
~ ~ ~ ' - - ' ' - - -
events related to the
~
- 2 3 and-- I mean, maybe not as clear as yours, but I came away d from talking to these people and other people with an 5 understanding that most of the instructions had corae through 7 But in your mind and your recollection, 8 both were involved in these conversations 9 in which you received these 2.nstructions, both in the i
11 A Yes.
12 Q okay. Andthefactthat{ j 13 g you felt 14 15 A was telling and was is telling-- I guess and was telling 17 g 18 Q Okay. One other thing, did you-- It's my 19 understanding also that roupwas{
2o 21 A Yes.
22 Q Beycnd recommending or advising 1
23 2.
25
1 A No.
2 Do you recall any other cor:nents Q made 3
4 A Nc, I don't. I-- The only thing was that 5 g you know,-
6 I 7 0 At the time that you were conducting this 8 project, were you aware that group was the one
- O that 10 A yes.
11 0 were you aware that roup had 12 previously refused to accept these documents because they :
13 were unsigned? -
14 A No.
15 0 Okay.
l 16 MR. GRIFFIN: Mark, have you got any questions 17 MR. EMERSON: I don't believe.
1F MR. GRIFFIN: Have you got any questions ,
19 Because I've added to the parts that I needed--
20 cr wanted to Stress as an addition to the existing record.
21 I don't think so, except 22 maybe to clarify that when 23
. . - .".'. s .
i' '
- 24 - -
- e. 4 ,
25 So, that's why, you know, that did say I
l
)
1 something. Other than that--
2 37 yy, gg;ppyg:
3 Q Do you think was being helpful?
4 A Well, I thought so, yes.
5 Q Okay. Because, you see, e lulu u lillul u m u u u W 8 So, this project that you were doing was one 9 that was very intimate with in that to 11 12 A well,_. -
13 g Now, you know, offering you advice to 14 assuage your conscience as far as'_
15 16 17 And so, that's why I asked you whether 18 had offered any other advice or instructions to you.
19 A (Shaking head.)
20 Q Anything else?
n 21 A No. I just can't see that[6 would have done L. -
22 anything that thought was wrong.
~
23 Q Okay. Well, I'm not suggesting that g did.
24 I'm Just saying-- You know, at the time we first talked, !
25 was not aware of the relationship between the M
, i
1 and his group. And just as a matter of the interview--
2 my investigation, I mean, I determined that these things 3 were coming directly to his group as soon as you completed
,. them.
5 An'd then it became clear to me that you had 6 mentioned it before in your testimony offering advice 7 to you. And I wanted to clarify that situation, also, to e
seeifIcouldjogyourmemorytoseeif[- told you 8 anything else--
10 A No.
11 0 --to assist you in completing your project.
12 A No.
13 Q have I or( M here threatened you 1' in any manner or offered you any rewards in return for this 15 statement?
16 -
No.
A 17 Have you given this statement freely and Q
18 voluntarily?
18 A Yes.
20 Is there anything else you'd care to add to 0
21 the record?
22 (Pause.)
23 If you've got something yon want to say, 24 feel free to.
1 25 6 Can we go off the record ]
s 1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ' _ _ _ 2
1 minute?
2 MR. GRIFFIN: Surely.
3 (Whereupon, discussion was held off the ;
)
~
4 record.)
5 I'd just'like to put into the 6 record my con'cern for the, like I said, the little guy.
7 Like Like myself. Or, the people that seemed' 8 to me that always get hurt are the people that really didn't 9 have any control over the situation. And I just don't want )
i 10 to have that happen here.
11 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. Well, to my knowledge, i
12 nobody has suffered who is still working out there. -
13 Well, let me tell you, some ,
I 14 pe.ople have suf fered who's not still working out there. j 15 MR. GRIFFIN: Right. I think I know those 16 people, j 17 I think you know three of them 18 real well, i i
1 19 MR. GRIFFIN: That's right.
20 Anything else, 21 No, I guess not.
22 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. Off the record. j 23 (Whereupon, at 7:16 p.m., the interview was 24 concluded.)
i 25 l
l This is to certify that the attached proceedings beforo .the UNITEL STATES NCCEIAR FIGULATORY CCEISSION in the ::atter of:
NAE OF PROCEEDING:
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW (CLOSED MEETING)
DOCKET NO.: "NONE
. 1 M l N j ware held as herein appears, and that this is the original
- l transcript thereof for the filo of the United States Nuclear l R3gulatory Commission.
(Siett 2, a m (TYPED) Sandra Harden Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliatien l
1 I
~
~
ww.........w... m.in w %... - -- ..,
I have ir. formation that I wish to provide in confidence to the U. S. Nuclear Regula:c y Comission (NRC). I request an express pledge of confidentiality as a conciti:n of providing this information to the NRC. I will not provide this infor ati:n voluntarily to the NRC without such ::nfidentiality being extended to me.
- my uncerstanding, consistent with its legal coligations, the NRC, oy agreeing to
- nis confidentiality, will adhere to the following conditiens:
(1) The NRC will not identify me by name or personal identifier in any NRC initiated document, conversation, or comunication released to the public which relates cirectly to the information provided by me. I understand the term "public release" to encompass any distribution outside of the NRC with the exception of other public agencies which may require this information in futherance of their responsibilities under law or public trust.
(2) The NRC will disclose my identity within the NMC only to the extent required for the conduct of NRC related activities.
(3) During the course of. the inquiry or investigation the NRC will also make every effort consistent with the investigative needs of the Comission to avoid actions which would clearly be expected to result in the disclosure of my identity to cersons suoseguently centacted by the NRC. AT a later stage I understand that even though the NRC will make every reasonable effort to protect my identity, my icentification could be compelled by orders or subpoenas issued by courts of
?.aw, hearing boards, or similar legal entities. In such cases, the btsis for granting this promise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will be -
comunicated to the authority ordering the disclosure in an effort to maintain my conficentiality. If this effort proves unsuccessful, a representative of the NRC will attempt to inform me of any such action before disclosing my identity.
,o understand that the NRC will consider me to have waived my right to cu.rioentiality if I take any action that may be reasonably expected to disclose my identity. I further understand that the NRC will consider me to have waived my rignts to confidentiality if I provide (or have previously provided) information to any other party that contradicts the information that I provided to the NRC or if :ircumstances indicate that I am intentionally providing false information to the NRC. %,
/
Other 2nditions: (ifany) '
I have read and fully understand the contents of this agreement. I agree with '
its provisions.
eec :: on behalf of the US Nuclear Regulatory Cemission - .
~~
EXHIBIT (2)
,,,, eg g *t * ** ** **'*st
- 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
. . 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 4 REGION IV 5
6 CONFIDENTIAL INTERVIEW 7
{
8 g t' "
10
{
11 12 The interview was commenced at 6:55 p.m.
13 PRESENT:
14 H.. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investicator, Office of Investigations, U. S. Nuclear Regulatory 15 Commission, Recion IV, Arlincton, Texas i
16 THOMAS IPPOLITO, Engineer, NRR, U. S. Nuclear l Regulatory Commission, Wach.ingic.". D. C.
17 a iLegal Intern, Government 18 Accountability Preject, 1901 Q Street, N. W., ;
j Washington, D. C. 20009 l 19 ,.
,! Interviewee gn L- a l
21 I
I 22 23 i
,. 24 A
4
( EXHIBIT (2)
\
.g.
. -* , 1-t'
I
- e 1 CONTENTS 2 WITNESS EXAM.NAT:0N l' 3
.m 3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
' 25 l
3 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 MR. GRIFFIN: We're going to go on the record now.
3 This is an interview of' N } who is 4 employed by#
. L 5
W3 6
The location of this interview is( h 7 )
8 Present at this interview are 6 ,
g r Representative for the GAP, the Government 10 Accountability Project; Tom Ipoolito, NRC, NRR; and H. Brooks 11 Griffin with the NRC OI; and Mr. Burns, the Court Reporter.
12 M I need to swear you to the contents of your 13 statement, would you rise and raise your right hand, please?
14 Whereupon, 15
{ ]
16 having first been duly sworn by Investigator (Griffinj was 17 examined and testified as follows:
18 EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
20 Q The first subject we need to discuss is the 21 confidentiality agreement. I'm going to read this to you, l
22 and I'm going to read it into the record; and it's important 23 that we both have a clear understanding of what the terms 24 of this agreement are.
(~
$5 So, I'm going to be asking you a's we go alonc if l
l l
1- you understand; and I am sure you do.
2 " Confidentiality Agreement. I have infermation 3 that I wish to provide in confidence to the Nuclear 4 Regulatory Commission. I request an express pledge of 5 confidentiality as a condition for providing this information 6 to the NRC. I will not provide this information voluntarily 7 to the NRC without this confidentiality being extended."
8 Do you understand that?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q okay.
11 "It is my understanding that consistent with its u legal obligations the NRC, by agreeing to this confidentiali:
13 will adhere to the following conditions:" i 14 These first three conditions are what the governmen 15 is agreeing to. This is what binds us; this is what we
~
16 must follow.
17 "No. 1. The NRC will not identify me by name or 18 personal identifier in any NRC initiated document, conversatic 19 or communication released to the public which relates directly 20 ' to the information provided by me."
21 Do you understand?
E A Yes, I do.
23 Q We will not use your name in our reports; we will I
24 not use your title er some description in there that would 25 allow the reader to identify you?
, a 9
- 1 A Right.
2 l Q "I understand the term 'public release' to i
3 encompass any distribution outside of the NRC, with the excer-4 tion of other public agencies which may recuire this infor-5 mation in furtherance of their responsibi'lities under law 6 or public' trust."
7 This means that the NRC will not release 8 documents that bear your name or any other identifier to 9 anybody outside the NRC, with the exception of other 10 responsible public agencies. !
11 An example might be that at some point in future, O say, you filed a complaint with the Department of Labor, 13 just as an example. If you did, it might be that the 14 NRC would receive a request from Department of Labor for 15 indormation as to your activities as an inspector, our 16 knowledge of you.
17 This is an agreement between the NRC and the 18 Department of Labor that consistent with the law and it 19 would be possible the NRC and DOL might discuss your case.
20 A I see.
21 Q But that would not be released outside the public '
M agencies that have such need under law.
23 A Okay.
24 That is the exception.
Q 25 2.
"No. The NRC will disclose mv identity within i
- * ' s --
i J
I ! the NRC only to the extent required for the conduct of i l ,
2 NRC-related activities."
3 In other words, they don't go back and say, " hey, l 4 '
las* night I met It will be only those 5 people that need to know who will be told what your name is.
6 If your name appears on a document and an.insnector o
7 is assigned to go look at a document and to determine whether I l
8 something is wrong with that document, he's coina to need to 9
know your name so he can identify the document.
10 A Right. I 11 Q But that doesn't mean he needs to tell five other U guys that are NRC inspectors. It would be kept as restricted 13 as possible to maintain and ensure confidentiality. The ,
i 14 government agrees to ao that as part of its contract. !
15 kt "No. 3. Durine the course of the inquiry or l 16 investigation the NRC will also make every effort concisten 17 with the investigative needs of the Commission to avoid i
18 actions which would clearly be expected to result in the l I
19 disclosure of my identity to persons subsequent 11y contact by i ,
20 the NRC."
21 In other words, I am interviewing tonight: Let's i 22 say next week I'm on-site and I am interviewing somebody in 23 j .DCC.
l !
24 And : say, Now, listen, I talked to some pecole l
25 off-site, and I use some description that would tend to tell 1
1 that person that I was subsequent;y interviewine, that would I i i j
2 lead them to say, hey, ! know who he was talkine to: he f 3 was interviewing 4 Well, we take precautions to avoid identifyine vou 5 in that yr.nnner.
6 "At a later stand I understand that even though the 7 NRC will make every reasonable effort to protect mv ifentity, 8 my identification could be compelled by orders or subpoenas 9 desued by courts of law or hearing boards or similar legal 10 entitles. In such cases the basis for the granting of this 11 promise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will
'. 12 - -terYo~r5un .cated to the authority ordering the disclosure in 13 an effort to maintain my confidentiality." -
14 What this means is, a court of law lecally has the 15 right to compel the NRC to give up your nama, or it's 16 possible that they could have a legal basis for compelline 1"' your name.
18 If such an unusual occurrence were to occur, the 19 NRC would resist divulging your name in every way possible.
20 And if everything else failed, the NRC would 21 even ask that the court, if we were compelled as an Acency 22 to give up your name -- which is highly unlikely -- but if 23 we were compelled to do se, we woulf still as a last case, i
M { request it be given just to the Jufze, to satisfy his needs.
25 And the last thing in this caracraoh says:
s u_
. .. I 1 l "If this effort proves unsuccessful, a recresentat vr i
- 2. of the NRC will attempt to infor.? me of any such action befere-3 disclosing my identity."
4- Now, I've only been in NRC for about a year and a 5 half, but I do not know of anv instances where the NRC has 6- been compelled to divulge a con.?idential source's identity.
7 And I don't anticipate any such instances. We hope this will 8 a never come up. And I think we can state here in full s
9 confidence that it will not in this case.
10 Okay, now, the next paragraph involves your part i
11 of the agreement, what you must abide by for this contract u to'<:entinue to exist:
13 "I also understand that the NRC will consider me 14 to have waived my rights" -- which means 'give uc' --
"to 15 have waived my right to confidentiality if I take any action 16 that may reasonably be expected to disclose my identity."
17 In other words, if you go back where you live and 18 you call up some of your friends and you say, "I was just over 19 Friday night. talking to the NRC, and I told them about all 20 the stuff I found." If you do that, obviously, you are not 21 trying to keep it confidential.
22 A And that's a fact.
23 i Q Okay.
24 Well, what we're saying is you shouldn't do that.
2 But if you do it, confidentiality -- .
I
1 l A I wouldn't dare do it.
3 1
I i
2 j Q Right.
l 3 So what we're saying is, if you do this, the NRC i,
4 will no longer be compelled. If you aren't k'eeoinc it >
I 5 confidential, we will no longer be compelled to do so, also, i 4
6 "I further understand that the NRC will consider !
7 me to have waived my right to confidentiality if I provide 8 or have previously provided information to any other party I
9 that contradicts any information that I have provided the i 10 NRC, or if circumstances indicate that I am intentionally 11 providing false information to the NRC."
U Do you understand that?
13 . A Yes, I do.
14 Q Okay. l 15 Now, ll has some conditions that he wishes to 16 read into the record that -- in support of maintaininc !
i 17 this confidentiality. .
{i 18 !
19 Okay.
.f 20 I'm a representative of the Government Accountabilitt 21 Project, a legal intern there, representing lllllllhhere 22 today.
23 GAP would like to add-in as a condition to the !
24 confifentiality statement that, we exrect the Office cf I
j 25 Investigation and the authorities in this investication, i
f-I to provide a copy of the investigation report that results 2 from this investigation when it is made public, and when i:
2 is available to the public -- that portion that is available 4 to the public -- when that time is reached.
5 And, secondly, we also expect the Office of .
1 1
6 Investigation and the NRC to follow the normal OI policy 7 regarding retention of all material developed during the 8 course of your investigation as relates to 9 and not to destroy any notes or memorandum as relates to 0
11 And, finally, we would like to note ont he record 12 that we would prefer not to have any Region IV person ~nel 13 in possession of name or files, if it can be 14 avoided.
15 And we would like to state on the record that 16 is our wish; and we would hope you would avoid that.
17 We realize you cannot promise that, but we'd like !
18 to have it on the record that this is what we would like to 19 have. i i
l 20 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
21 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
22 Q llllllllinresponsetowhathehassaid,theNRC l1 23 is prepared to send you a copy of that oortion of the l
l 24 ! NRC report that micht result from your concerns; when it is 25 released to the public, we would be willing to give that. l i
1 We will also send you a copy of the transcrint 2 of whatever se say here today, and a copy of the confidentia-3 lity agreement.
4 I will adhere to the policy that we have,which 5 includes the preservation of notes and documents that we 6 receive and we use in preparation of our investigative reports 7
Andas{gllgh1salreadysaid,GAPhasreservationsabout 8 using Region IV personnel:
9 This is not a condition that the NRC can agree to.
10 He is merely expressing a concern about the use of Region i 11 IV personnel and a desire that they not be used.
U "I have read and fully understand the contents of 13 this agreement and I agree with its provisions."
14 Is that true, 2 15 A hes.
i 16 Q Okay. .
f 17 What I need you to do is sign your name, right J l
1 18 here (indicating document); you can do it on this copy that
]
l 19 you have, right here. {1 20 A (Witness signing document.) l l
.- - I 21 MR. GRIFFIN: igggggwouldycuwitness? l 22 '
[ signing document.)
23 (Mr. Griffin siening document.)
24 ga. Gn:yy:N: In that we've siened this, 6 l 25 we have an agreement; and the government will abide by it; I
1 1 and we expect you to, also.
2 As I said a few minutes before, a transcrio: ef i
3 the proceedings this evening, along with a coev of this 4
agreement will be mailed to you personally whien we receive 5
it; so you'll have -- you're entitled to copies of this; 6
and we will be sending them to you.
7 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 Okay, Q jnow, I want to start into your 9
initial or your original affidavit; and I'm going to be 10 following the affidavit. And probably the primary purpose for 11 our meeting this evening is to provide the NRC an opportunity ;
I 12 to go through your affidavit, assure that we understand i j
i 13 what you have to say; and also to try to get more s'pecifics 14 that would help us to look into these problems.
15 So I hope we can -- the affidavit lays out cretty 16 clearly what your concerns are; and this cives the NRC an 17 opportunity to get a little bit more if we cc.n; and we'll be 18 moving frem one issue to another.
19 okay, your name is, ' How are you 20 currently empicyed at Comanche Peak?
21 A j 1
22 Q Youworkin[ .
U A : work in 24 g h, okay.
2 And who is your immediate supervisor?
1
, A My immediate supervisor, the time sheet I'm on, i
2 is 3 Q And what are your duties, daily duties?
4 'A Atthepresent(
5 6
%. I 7 okay.
Q 8 When did you first begin your employment at 9 Comanche Peak? I
\
10 A {
11 okay.
Q 12 And what was your position when you were hired?
13 A {
~
14 15 [ ,
2$
- 6 -
17 19 20 Did you then transfer to the position you p.esently Q
21 hold?
22 A I went from the -- that position, ,
=>
1 25 The job there was basically, i .
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1
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2 :
3 sumummmmmmy.:
4 Q What doesu [ O stand for?
5 A That's an; 7
8 i
9 Q Okay.
10 A Also, they have certified copies, u e i u
l ammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmme w
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20 ml 21 A Not with
= 1 w..-_
= ,m 24 Q Okay. I il 25 You actually worked with j l
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1 A Yes,( ) At that time I was under 2
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3 Okay.
Q 4 MR. IPPOLITO: Howdidthe(
s -
6 THE WITNESS: ( -- M -- l O
Not everybody could get 8
i them.
10 My number was,'
_i 12 Then it switched M 13 2'
aummmmmmme. - agensman,
- 8 3
16 In other words, MR. IPPOLITO:
27
-3 N THE WITNESS: I got my j 28 L <
3 )
[
21 22 ._. . .
l 23 l 24 -
l
- i 1 l 2 would take l
3 it out and make his walkdown, his visual inspection, of l
4 whatever he was -- whatever it was that he was -- M 6
y _. _
8 MR. IPPOLITO: Where did the craft get it?
9 In other words, the crafts 10 11 THE WITNESS: .
12 MR. IPPOLITO: And welding engineering got it 13 form whom?
14 THE WITNESS: The welding engineering were the 15 ones who drew the packages up. They were the ones who 16 made the -- in other words, l 17 ,
18 jiR. IPPOLITO: All right, that would surely help 19 me because I am confused.
20 THE WITNESS: All right.
21 They -- the welding engineers are supposed to 22 determine what particular thing, hanger, et cetera, is to 23 be located for having its welding and everything --
24 MR. IPPOLITO: Yuh.
U THE WITNESS: --
and that is supposed to be done by
I welding engineering; not always, but it's supposed to.
2 MR. IPPOLITO: Right.
3 THE WITNESS:
4 MR. IPPOLITO: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: For hangers and for piping.
6 And they send these to the field, to the craft.
7 The craftsmen do 8
. They perform the 9
work.
10 If they have any problems -- and these task forces, 11 the way they had it set up, you had a welding engineer, 12 you had your QC, you had your ANI, you had your QA, all in 13 this one area. I wouldn't say it was an office; it wasn't.
14 And they all interfaced together, right there, 15 to expedite the -- whatever they were doing to the hangers, 16 which,' most the time was rework while I was thers, modifica-17 tions that had come out.
18 And this was supposed to make them accessible to 18 each other so that you wouldn't have to spend hours and days 20 to find them, run them down. The task force was set un 21 specifically for a certain area, and for a certain project; 22 and they were all working on that one project so they weren't 23 distracted with something else.
24
. I don't know if I'm making it clear or not?
25
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1 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
~
2 Q is this what you are currently doing now?
3 A 4 Q Okay. I think that's where I'm confused.
5 A 6 Q Youdidthis,f 8
9 A
Q lh}
Okay.
10 Thenh 11 a
saamummmmmmme.3 l 13 MR. IPPOLITO:
This wa( M )
14 THE WITNESS:
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23 So this is when,g u -
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3 4
BY MR. GRIFFIN
- 5 l
6 Q I
7 A ] 1 8 Q Well, maybe I could clarify by saving: during 9 most of four concerns that we're coing to go through here, l 10 in this first affidavit which was made, 11 1=
ammmmmmmmum 13 A Now, during the first part of the document 14 that we're g.oing through here, itwas--(
15 16 Q And that was your job then, 17 A Well, I started out, like I said,[
18 19 21 M I had concerns there.
22 Q Okay.
U A ..
I 24 !
25 Q Well, as we go into each one of these issues,; g
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i 1
I we'll try to achieve an understanding what your job was?
2 A Right, okay.
3 Because if I try to hold them all at once --
Q 4
(Laughter) 5
-- I probably won't be able to.
6 Following the affidavit here, you indicate that 7
in the first paragraph here, 10 .
11 A Right. I 4 I
Q b 13 I
15 Ii A Right. That is my present -- that's what I de 16 now. l'l l
l 17 Q What you do now? Okay.
18 A Right.
t 18
(
Q Okay. l
- That's pretty clearly stated here. '
i 21 i Then you say one of the first problems that vou had
" i u-23 24 A No, we didn't. We would have if I hadn't been 25 there.
l
2 l
3 Q Okay.
4 A I a
6 Q Um-huh.
7 A [
e seman P Q Um-huh.
10 A It was easier, I guess, to have me doing that t. hen 11 taanitwas(
12 emp]
13 Q Um-huh.
14 A r 15 16 17 l i
18 And, of course, first thing I thought was to ao il 19 down and see if he smelled it.
20 Q Um-huh.
21 Letmestopyouforaminute,{ 1 2 It just occurred to me, in conside: ration of M confidentiality, mainly I am interested in finding out some i'
l 24 information ,
I Want to knoW that as it 25 relates te one of your potential concerns --_
o 1
I lllll But, rather than going into detail as to what
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! exae:1y occurred, which would probably tend to identify you 3
actual ongoing l' as the person responsible and they are not I 4 f I
5 actual safety issues --
- r f
A There's.a much better way of identifying it than !
1 6 l f
that; okay? (
i f 8
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9 t..-
10 Um-huh.
11 Q A
Joined together in one long line. 6, 12 s 1 . : .
u asumusanummis i Q Okay.
15 What trailers are these?
16 A These are the QC trailers. I y;
Q Okay.
gg ;
A QC building is just, it's right in front of the I f
39 i weld, welding engineering.
g)
Q Okay. ,
I 21 j A
There are six trailers joined togehter there, 22 they are poorly-wired; the airconditioners og temporary trailers; l fire.
are shot; there are many electrical potentials for g4 Tell me, are ;
Q okay. -
,3, l 1
. . I 1
2 A 2
Q Tb ? y are all 4 A You bet they are1 5
Q okay. i 6 A
( l 7
Q Okay. i We ll have a look at that. j 8 A But my concern over that is, if that building 1
8 burned --
10 g 11 A
YouhavedestroyedalargepartofComanche} Peak 12 piping out there.
13 Q Now, do you happen to know the procedure, if they 14 have a procedure or requirement 15 A This I will not say I have actual knowledge; I've 16 heard that there is. I've heard it discussed. I haven't 17 actually read them, I haven't actually seen them.
I 18 But surely to goodness there are p.pocedures that 18 will protect those documents. They are not supposed to be --
I 8 my understanding is -- I haven't seen a procedure on it, now; 21 you understand that? j 22 Q Um-huh.
i 23 A But my understanding is they are not to be outside 24 of a fireproof area.
25 Q Okay. We can check that out.
- rw -< e
_ , , r- _,
1 A When~they store them in the vault, they don't 2 even allow smoking back there.
3 Q Yuh.
4 I: the vault in a separate building?
5 THE WITNESS: [
7
- m. BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 Q okay. Youindicate,{ n your statement here 9
c 10 l
11 A They did.
- 2 Q They were changing their system; they tried to go 1 13 I
to a system where there could be packages in the field; is that 14 I right? l l'
15 A Yes. '
16 What had happened was they had come up with a task 17 forcs idea.
13 Um-huh.
Q ,j i
19 A They had a regular hanger vault, they called it, 20 in welding engineering where all of the hangers were kept and ,
21 stored.
il 22 When they set ap their three task forces, reactor, 'l
'j-i 23 auxiliary and safeguards, they broke the documentation up into 24 those areas; and carried them down to the particular place 25 inside; ours was inside the reactor. One one in the aux
1 building.
{
2 l And they carried it right directly to the area 3
that was being worked on, supposedly. They didn't carry them 4
all -- they had the files down there; they didn't transmit 5
them all at once. They came down in bunches. They carried 6.
them down there in boxes.
7 Yes, there was 1,500 hanger packages lost down 8
there." I don't know how many they've been able to find.
E Q Okay, who.is responsible for trying to recover them; k I
10 do you know? l i
II A Whoever the last person that had them in their U possession.
13 Q But, I mean, is there one group or one person-I' on site that's been tasked for trying to locate these lost 15 documents?
16 A No.
17 They did have, now, I don't know what group they 18 were called; there were two men that came looking for some of 19 these lost hanger packages.
- Do you remember their names?
Q 21 A No, I don't even know their names.
22 Nobody had the time to help them, the only thing of 23 . .
It is.
24 Q Did they issue some kind of a memo ou there savin:;,
25 everybody bring in all documents?
se 1 A No; but they did at one tine start to come in and i l 2 go throuch everybody's desk; they -hengh: thev had been lost.
II 3 Q Well, keep in mine; I've go; your affidavit here, i
4 and what I'm trying to do is get more specific; and.if there 5 are no more specifics here, we're goine to move right on --
6 A I did have a list; [
c 8
63 o L-1 1 10 A They were. I do not want to say they have been; 11
{ -
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Q 14 A I.wish I knew how you replace them.
15 No you still have this list?
Q 16 A It's a -- about this big (indicating) and -- oh, 17 I don't have the list. ,
b 19 21 24
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7 Q Just to clarify here: [
as, 10 A No, sir, no, sir. g 9
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12 13 3
o causuuuuuuummiir 16 3 {
17 18 19 Q If I went on-site and I wanted to ask the most
" responsible person .about this issue: what are you doing in 21 trying to locate these things? -- who would be the person I 22 should talk to?
23 A I would suggest the person who would cive you the 24 most accurate description on how they are coing about locatinc 3
it would be 1
l
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1 Q Okay.
r 2 Let's move on to the next issue --
3 ,MR. IPPOLITO: I'm sorry.
4 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. '
5 MR. IPPOLITO: The way the system was described to 6
me -- and I'm h'aving troubles --
7 THE WITNES':
S Um-huh.
8 MR. IPPOLITO: _ -- the way the system was described 8 '
to me was, engineering, whether it's weld engineering or '
10 electrical, whatever-have-you, puts together either a weld i II design drawing or electrical ISO, or whatever; and when they 12 do that, they send it down and have it reproduced.] $
13 Then it goes and gets a number on it, and then it's 14 distributed to the satellites.
15 Now -- all right? -- and from the state 111tes, 16 people like the craft, welding cr' aft, or the whatever, the 17 electrical craft, they get a work authorization: put up 18 that hanger, or install that cable.
18 They go to--with that authorization card, they go to their satellite and they say, "I want this packace."
21 And then are given the package that contains 22 supposedly all the right information in it, all of the design 23 changes and the revs and all that.
24
, When they get through putting it together, they take 25 that package -- the package is supposed to be turned in every 3- c,.. - . -
Y 9 ,
+. .-. . - - . _.
, night, as I understand.
I 2
Anyway, they return the package back to document --
3 the satellite; and it gets filed there.
4 But one thing they told me is that when they make 5
distribution of the original engineering drawing and any 6
change thereof, the origina.1 goes into the vault. That 7
is what I have been told.
8 So, you know, I'm here wondering?
THE WITNESS:
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21 You don't have duplicates. See, that's what makes 22 ,
it --
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 Q Did the less of these packages occur before the 25 satellite system was set up?
l l
. . . . ,..__m_
1, A No. What had happaned was they were transmittinc I
2 ! them down there in boxes in the backs Of open trucks.
3 g To the satellites? ,
4 A To -- not to the satellites, but down to the task 5 forces. L 1
6 Some of them might have gotten lost. Some of them 7 might have been set in a box here, and nobody knew who it 8 belonged to. !
9 Q But you came up with a specific -- you came up with to a number, here; did you have an indication from somebody that 11 1,400 packages were lost? _
_ .12 A Yes, they talked about it down there for abou't 13 two weeks.
14 Q So they never made it to the task forces?'
15 A Apparently, if they had, they don't know what 16 happened to them. (
17 18 .a,. ....w,. ..r., m., ... .:e.. . . , , v.,
19 And eventually, i so 21 22 23..._ l-e -
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24 Q I thought -- you're talking about j
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, j I quess it was,l 5
, ; I. forget what it was. But when they came up 6
there, they came in, computer printout. And what they was j 7
supposed to be was ISO numbers, line numbers, painter numbers; 8
you were supposed to be able to go to one and be able to !
8 tell -- they'was in hanger order. Another was in --
10 Q Well, for a brief time'here the idea was that they 11 would send these packages to various task forces? f 12 A Right.
13 Q And they would have the douements there for their 14 use?
4 13 A Yes.
16 Q And then they decided they were not going to use ,
17 !
that system; bring them back in; and when they broucht them 18 back in to a central document area, they discovered that they 19 had lost many, many, packages? ,
20 A They found that out while they were still down in 21 the field; and we ' - -
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3 Q So you think thir.
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4 A could tell you -- -
L-5 Q }couldtellhowitstartedandwhen--
6 A And what it was supposed to do, and I don't know .
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11 They came down there, they set up their file 12 cabinets, and they came in one weekend and they went through 13 all the hanger packages in there; everything was working 14 rather smoothly.
15 Then it started going astray somewhere. I' don't 16 know where it went astray. But that's when, 17 18 19 20 21 Thisiswhen( -
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22 Thisiswhen{1 23 24 25 gg g, . g @ E g ,5
I thsy would says wa can't bring it down, we brought it down 2 last week. j 3 You see what I'm saying?
4 Now, this has nothing to do with document control 5 at all, or the document control people. ,
6 MR. IPPOLITO: i don't understand. Do you under-7 stand it? I want to oursue it. I'm fuzzy.
8 MR. GRIFFIN: What's fuzzy, I think, is -- I may 9 be wrong -- I think we're looking a brief window in time
, 10 when they tried to use a system; started to assemble documents ,
11 moved them out; and then they decided they didn't want that U system and they brought them back to go to another system; 13 and then they found out that they'd lost a lot of stuff; 14 because they.did not maintain control over those packages. ~
15 MR. IPPOLITO: I think what I'm hearing now is 16 that they started off with a central place where all the 17 documents were. They decided that, you know, they'd im rove 18 efficiency; and they created three task forces.
19 They said: let's move the stuff down to the task 20 forces so that it'll be close to them.
21 Then they found a short while, I guess within a 22 few months or something like that --
23 THE WITNESS: Within a few weeks.
24 MR. IPPOLITO: Within a few weeks they found that 25 to be unsuccessful. I think at that time they may have
': lf's .. , .,. )
I created the satellites.
I* 2 THE WITNESS: This was prior to the -- this would 3 be before -- maybe that's what I'm missinc about.
4 MR. IPPOLITO: Yes? .
5 THE WITNESS: This was before the satellites were 6 created.
7 MR. IPPOLITO: That's it.
8 THE WITNESS: See, the satellites didn't come 9
into existence until after the task force had been moved 10 back up the hill.
11 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
12 And they'd already tried to draw packages back in?
Q 13 A Right.
14 And what was happening C' 6 was,.
16 17
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muumump a 22 At this time, now, I want you to understand: {W ,
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8 - And everything was working
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4 smoothly. They had the girls in there, they were trackina 5 all the packages; they knew exactly where everything was.
6 Then when this task force thing come into being, 7 they started breaking those up; and I mean, utter chaos 8
broke loosa!
8 They tried to bring all the hangers down to where 10 they had this work 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day, a QA, a man for the NCRs.
11 They had the welding engineer -- all right They had the ANI.
there.
13 It would have been wonderful, if it had worked, 14 you know.
15 But their method of getting it down there was 16 so haphazard, that's where we fell' apart.
17 Q Do you have any knowledge, is there anybody who 18 6 ?) !
8 A Yes, but I cannot give you their names.
21 Q Could 6 give it? Would g now them?
22 I really don't believe he would, because I really A
23 don't know.
24 Q Who could I ask?
25 A The#
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2 Q Do you know who they workef fer? i e
i 3 A That's what I was trying to think. The only reason 4 I'm really aware of them is 5 ~~-5-- " - - - - - - -
6 7
I'lllookandseeifIcan{
8 brought, because
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9 Q Okay. We can go right to the heart of this 10 particular matter, if we can find out 1
11
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12 Q It seems to me like f 'I came in there L '
13 i
were --
14 i . . . . . . . . _ _ .
15 Q Okay.
16 A So maybe they cama out of engineering department.
17 '
Q All right, we'll see if we can find out; if we 18 can't, we may ask you to try to help us find out who has -
19 that job. I'm sure it's not a secret out there.
20 Is it?
21 A I really don't believe it is.
22 Okay.
Q 23 A The' -
'who set it up ,'
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5 Q _Okay.
6 A So I really don't know -- 1 7
Q Okay, we've got a lot of issues here,.and I think 8 we've gone as far as we can on that one.
9 Let's go into this concern here on the instance Can 10
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11 you tell me about that?
12 You bet I CCL A
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25 Q Okay,5 1
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7 . . _ _ _ _ _ _ .- aa -- -- - -
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a 3 the one. hat you wrote in.
4 Go ahead?
Q 5 A So I didn't think any more abetit it. .s 6 n . Cu u .4.---. .~ wg;;,, ,
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8 Q Okay.
8 And you askedI .
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15 And I said,f 16 j 17 AndIL 'got'real angry.[ i -
got real upset at me. ;
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19 Well, I remembered what 'had
) told me. So 20 I didn't say any more about itrightthen.I L
21
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22 And at that timt l
23 n,- I 24
'. And my concern was -- I liked ' and !
25 they had a tendency cut there every once in a while !
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11 13 14 Q Okay, when you say you were concerned abeut 15 ]--yousayhereinyouraffidavit that I
16 ]
17 A Yes.
1B Q And then alt'ert i
19 -
20 M A Right.
22 Q so[ , 1]knewtha:{ ,
23 ) .
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24 A Yes. What is, the way it actually occurre' ;
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10 =~ -- - VGinose if it wat 11 12 If it wasn't illegal for them to have it, then, 13 I wouldn't be concerned with it; but that I thought that he 14 should know that it was there;and it was being used.
15 And I told ,y jthen,Isaid, ' ' ' - - * " -
16 -- -
- omes 17 18 And this is mainly what the letter was. And I told 19 ,
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like I said, I didn't think M 2 N.
23 Q later indicated to yc;u' -
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5 6
7 Q okay.
8 A But that is exactly the way it happened. I just
- i 9 happened to be up there; I happened to see it; and had
- J 10 misunderstood.h } l 11 And at the time I didn't realize that --what it 12 could be used for. I didn't analyze.
I -
13 Q so the imolication is L.
7 14
.)
15 A Yes, because they were told -- now, let me get i-16 something straight here, now:
- -- -+ --- ' -
17 .. +
18 19 20 They would reduce it, the.n, you've cet a black 21 stamp. They were going in there and they were writing "83" 1
22 or "005" in there or whatever they wanted in there, without 23 stamping it. And all of a sudden I said:
24 ,
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1 3 l Well, we've cet an off:.:e up here ' <
. with this method of stamping it.
4 l 5 Apparently what they had decided was this was a big project, 6 to try to replace-all the control copies.
7 And they gave them'
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9 10 Now, they could also, when you think about it now, 11 they had a copy come in there for anything else, they could ~ ~
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12 have'-
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13
- s 14 Q Okay.
15 You are saying the potential was .
16 17 A You bet it was there!
1B Q Did the possession of i-19
]
20 A Yes, it did.
i I l 21 -
Because L 22 Q Okay.
Do they 23 .
Did - ~does' -
24 I
still have them?
25 I A They don't have to use ther any =cre, because l
1 i all the documents, apparently, have been replaced. !
1 I
2 l Q Well, what system is -- i I
3 A Now they ce: it straight L
. d 5 Q Okay, so QC no longer has stamps that they can 6 use for this purpose; is that right?
7 A So far as I know, they don't. ,
i 8 Q Okay.
9 Is there any way that you can come up with the name mt \
10 of thatI't - -
l 11 A Yes, there is.
I can find out what'L M1ast J name 12 is. Her first name is .
w .b 13 Q Okay.
~
14 A And5-15 Q Well, let's not go any further --
16 (Laughter) 17 You are saying that the AN through the change that
- 18 he instituted as relates o 19 20 A No, it wasn't, they weren't stamping it; they i
21 were just putting it in there.
i I
22 ANI deter =ined that anybody --
23 Q So they required a change?
l l 24 A so they said they weren't ing to 6 l i
l 25 s.
r . . . . . -
j And they told me, 1 And -his is when they did this other.
i 2
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3 i c_
4
$ ~
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.. just to make sure I understand
- ~ .
7 .. , , . , .
s 9 A They were just a M and they'd h 10 Q okay.
71 And they since changed the M 7 eventually, U A No, it's just that they have finally, 13 got all of the documents stamped that they wanted stamped.
14 Now, at that time I knew watching them work down 15 1
]
16 17 l i j 18 19 -1 20 But then as I have gotten ]
21 I can see there are many other things 6 22 p, a caekate, ;
23 They could be used on a -- if they lost 24 and l
25
! ummun e n. ,
k
)
- 1 4 , 3 W 9 -s& 6
. . . . . . . . - 1 1:
( .- 4 1
2 Q Okay, the problem then relates to l
2 l _ it's over now; is it f.e t ? l
{
l l 1 3 A Yes, I think it is.
4 Q Okay.
I' 6
Who would be our best source of information to 6 find out, besidesf ]whoaresomeother L
7 peoplethatwouldknow{ ']
8 A
[ ,
3--now, these are peopel you can't 9 find at Brown & Root any more.
10 g 'l
- )
~
11 A ', 3just started theT -
t _t Okay.
12 Q --
, 13 A Andk L
lJAnd #
ldefinitely 14
- 7 knows about t L "
13 Q Okay.
16 If I asked (:L 1 about it, $o you think 1
a
.tell me 17 about it?
18 A I don't really believe that Iamsure{}would.
r 1 19 -- well, I can't say that because -- I think the world M off L
}butIjustdon'tknow.
]isworkingir.[
~
21 Now, the[
22 now. And [ ' was in there -
24 Nou, --
M q
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- 4
. I 1 , A Yes. And
- 2 l Q Okay.
3 A They can verify that, because in fact, 4 wouldn't use them.
5 wouldn't?
Q 6 A No, sir.
\
7 Now, in your affidavit here you say, you indicate Q
' ' ~ ~ ~'~' ~
8 aproblemin['~~~' ' '
9 , n... n ra m .e4 a - -
10 .
11 A Well, now, that --
you'retalkingabout( ,
~~
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12 . --- - -- - .- -
13 14 Yes, right.
Q 15 A Okay, now, whathadhappenedwas,[
. i.
16 - ~ = - - - - - - - - --- ,
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Now, what I would lir.e to snow :.n that is that when
, i e
~ ' '
4
_ ______________m _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - - - _ _ _ - _ .
-t 1 ,
i 2 A You just J r
3 A is -
4 Q You don't know --
5 A If you don't e
an==== l 9 gO 10 Q Um-huh.
11 A --foryour{
12 13 14 15 , , ,
16 17 18 7 19 Q okay, tell me about I L
20 -
-]
21 A {,
22 ,
23 24 Hosi did they do this?
Q :
1 I
I M A They just put on there -- they jus: changed it: '
D I the QC inspector changed it from a Class-2 to a Class-3.
. )
l l 2
Now, there are people who can tell you mere abou: !
3
.this than I can; but if you're running along a line and 4
you got a Class-2 and it connects into a Class-5, there's a 5
point there where it changes from a safety-related to 6
nonsafety-related. Now, there's une Class-2 has to be 7
continuous form end to the other; eventually, that flance -- j l
8 you'll get a pipe coming out the middle of this; that's a Class-2.
10 The reasons for changing it, I am assuming they've 11 got a reason for changing it. It starts cit as safety ;
" related, then they downgrade it to a nonsafety-related; 13 non-ASME, it does not have to be reviewed by ANI, then, l'
Q I see.
15 Well, do you know of any particular systems, 16 piping systems, that are quality or safety system that you 17 personally know have been downgraded so that they would i 18 miss that ANI review?
19 A Iwouldguessa{ ]nowandthen. Or 20 21 23 4
24 '
- 've had several instances of that.
23 4J E . " 0
_m__m_. _ -%
.m
8 I
2 -
Q ! understand how it works,e '
And in an
- a
-3 lll instance like this and in this type ~of concern, what we 4
would need to do is to try tco isolate one of them so we 5
could go have a look at it.
6 A
Okay,thatIwillhavetodo;Icando.['.
7 , ,
1 a
8 Q Okay. I.t you can give us an example of one or 8
a couple that have been upgraded or downgraded, we can look.
~
10 '
at them and s ee if [" ' " "'~"" ~ "' ~ ~ "' " " ' #
11 ..--....s . ., 4 .A n, s 12 13 A Like I said in the last month we've had several 14 come through like that.
15 Q Okay.
16 r '
A I wish. would talk to you.
II Q Well, I tell you, when we kick off an interview, 18 we're liable to talk to anybody on site.
19 A B e c a u s e 1.'
u
' has got information on all of this.
.1 8
Q A lot of times investigations or inspections start 21 out with people who are willing to take the risk of coming 22 forward and telling us of their cencerns. Once we have 23 a starting point, then we normally go en site, wherever we "4
need to go -- whether it's vendors or on-site -- and then we ,
I l 25 -
start interviewing larce numbers of people; anybody that '
I e 4 g %k b '
.- . i l
i I might have information.- We usually are able to resolve these 2
. issues.
I 3 !
But if the people we talk to won't talk to us, !
4 they won't tell us the truth, then we've got problems.
5 But we've found in general if we talk to enouch people, 6
and the people that we're talking to realize we're not just 7
going to be talking to them, but we're talking to all their 8
people who work with them; usually people will shoot 9
straight with us. They will tell us the truth -- not always, 10 but a lot of times.
11 And we usua.'ly end up getting our answers if we 12 talk to enough people. .
. ~ - -
A Well, I'm suref }talktoyouif( lwere _ . . - . . .
w 14 approached; but(
}willnotcomeforward.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Butf -
L 17 #
. 1 And .
I 18 1 Q Okay. We'll keep.-t l in mind.
19 . - 7 i A can give you numbers, everything. ican i L > 1 20 -
give you everything -- everything I can't furnish you,, , J
- 1 21 can give you.
22 Q You make reference in your affidavit here to 3
a document,I
~~
24 f
25 .i A h.ght. I
. -*.s y e
I
\ l l
1 Q Yousay{
2 - - -
1 3
' l 4 My desk is here. '
A 5
6 7
8 9 - -
So [ wrote up v.. . -
6 2 L, 10 11 Q I'm already somewhat aware of this issue, and what >o 12 I need to do is figure out what you know about it.
13 You saw it?
14 A I'saw[-
15 l 16 Q Okay. You say that<m ,
- had( _
17 j
{
18 A When{}cameback, after 1
,,w ent 19
}when"' l 20
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21 Q And thic had been signed by 22 Yes, it had.
A 23 Okay.
Q 24 And the -
1 25 Yes, I saw the A I
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l
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\
1 Q Okay.
2 A- I.had seen it before and : saw it after.
3 -Q Okay. And it's your belief that this was falsifi-4 cation?
5 A Yes, it was.
6 That the man had either falsified the documentation 7 or he.had signed and not gone back down and looked at it.
8 They're supposed to inspect that every time.
9 But{. )didbasicallythesame.thinethat 10 (. ,did j there, and'[..-
1.- t-11 - 1 a
12 Q When did that occur?
IS A That occurred --
14 Q Hold it. I think we're going to get to that later 15 on.
16 A Yes.
11 Q Okay.
18 You said in your affidiavit here that you remember 19 . . . . - - -
20 l1 ._.
21 d' '
22 t
2 A That's right.
24 Q Eow did you find out about this?
25 I A well, l
1 I baan reviewad prior to the tima that -- we had, wall, we had, i
2 / you know, we had Unit 1 and Unit 2. And it was a Unit 2 II l package.l 3
s
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. 5 5
J 6 So instead of doing anything else,
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8 9
to y , w. . . c r 22 % ns G M k.u.r.:;.u r s w n 11 i 12 Q Okay. Is there any way we can identify where this 13 is now? Is there any you can tell us to help us find this?
14
-Or.is this just something you heard about?
15 A No. No. No, It came right through my hands there.
L 16 Q This was L 1 17
- A Oh, no, hon, this was -- this is where I am richt- l 18 now.
19 Oh, is that right?
Q
< n 2 A
,_ a 21 Q Can you think of any way we can identify that?
22 A Yes, I can ask f
}- ,
f 23 g Now, I don't want you -- keep in mind confiden- J l ~
24 i tiality. .
i 6
e i t
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l And they'll say, " Wh a t ' s ' ' :doinc? ' '
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3 You understand?
4 A Yuh.
4
)
6 g I don't want to task you too hard.
6 A Well, I'll put it like this: if you really want
' r to check into it and you want -
L,.
i 8 1s I 1
8 Q I want to find --
l 4 t 10 A To find l' .-
- 1 11 Q [g _
g 9 -
. ,d -
13 A Okay,well,I. ]cangiveyouthatinforma-14 tion.
15 Q Okay.
16 A
So I asked them, I said, }l'.
17 .
18 .
I 19 20 1
21 That's reasonable, butstill--but{
22 ,
23 Q Okay.
24 '
A Out of our . -
t 25 l ~
~ You said this I
e s y e a ,** _s *s g p,
l I
- 1 1 .
i i
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. :
- t 3 (b ~
Did they actually line out the 4 "2" -- they lined through "2"? -- in Unit 2, which was 5 changed to read " Unit 1"? )
}
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. - - -
i.: I l
7 .. - - _ _ , _______ _ __ :_
1 8 .
8 Now, on the document,.itself, on the -- they had to 10 mark out on that document and initialed it and dated it, 11 - when it was marked through and changed.
U In other words, looking at it, you would thin ,
13
,w ell, somebody put " Unit 2" down there instead of " Unit 1".
14 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
15 - Just a typographical error?
Q 16 A Just a typographical error; that's what it would 17 appear to be.
18' But you feel certain that this whole thina actually Q
19 got picked up --
20 I know it did. I know it did.
A 21 MR. IPPOLITO: And this marking-out should still be 22 there?
23 THE WITNE3S: It's there.
I 24 i MR. IPPOLITO: Okav. .
J THE WITNESS: It's still there. It'll be there as e j , p , e
i
- . I i
t/
1 l\,long a' the doc ment exists, because ".s got, you know, i 1L 2 i signature on it..~ 's got the orig... . . ignatures en it, j 3 , BY MR. GR;FFIN: ;
i 4 Q '
The next part of your affidavit goes 'L 5 u c e ,, s,. s . , . . . . . . . . - . . .
6 <~.*- * - - - - - -
7 8 A Yes, what had happened,'
9 i
1 10 11 12 .; - -
13 .i ;
14 Q Um-huh.
15 - - * * - * * * * - -
1 16 '
i 17 A They 1 18 ,r. - , ~ - - -
l ,
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19 i a ;
. 20 Q Yuh.
21 well,f ;
5 22 that asbuilt als
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I 23 i 24 A Yes, they do.
25 Q So, can you think of any instances, any specific i
I l
= e 4
. g 4, '99* $
t
. 38 1
instances, where you've seen -- I know'you've heard the talk d 2
but de you know of any scecific instances where this was 1
3 done; where it was constructed first by craft and then 4
the engineers were asked-to come in and approve it later 5 on?
- 6 A I've just seen it go through my hands. I can't 7
give you any documents, I can't give you any specifics,_other 8
than -- I wasn't thinking in terms of numbers or anything 9
else -- I was just saying -- in many instances after it has 10 been put on there esbuilt, it created a nonconforming 11 condition, and they had to move it again.
El Right.
Q 13 A Now, let me give you just a -- not a specific --
14 but this is something that wasf 15 "
l 16 This[. 'come up there and[he says, " Boy, I nearly 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 Andchenallofasudden[
23
..:. . , , . .. . . c .
1
- Bocause 2 they had a specific thing they had to =c there and thev had 3 put that on there. There was no electrical embedment at all 4 in that wall.
6 Q They just wanted to make sure --
6 A That nobody put something up there.
7 (Laughter) ,
8 These are things that if you do go out there 9 and ask, and you do have the people with the knowledge, 10 they will clarify that for you.
Okay, / 9 11 Q g u
J I don't want to mislead you or M them or anybody else: a lot of people that talk to NRC, 13 they say, you know, they point out and say: " bad pipes."
14 Now, the NRC can keep this information in mind, 15 and that there's this as-built thing is a good example, 16 and we can alert our inspectors to it. And when they're 17 doing their routine inspections, if they see something that 18 looks suspicious, having the information that this improper 19 procedure is sometimes employed by craft, it can be a tio-off 20 to them.
21 But there's no way we can go out there and search 22 through all the records, and search through all the hardware 23 out there and --
24 A Ch, lands, I know that!
l 25 l Q So I appreciate your alerting us to it; and if you
~
..g. . = +
- 1 come across where you know somsbody, somebody's nams that 2
you'can give.us that can direct'us tc the specific particular i
F 3 ' instance where this has occurred; and'we can go talk to the
~4 person, and get those papers, or we can go to the hardware; i 8 we'll do something.about it.- .
6- A Right.
7 Q I just don't'want to mislead you into thinkine 8 that we're going to send 500 inspectors down there and-l 8 they're going.to somehow come out -- l 10 A No, I'm thinking more or less in terms of 11 talking to some of the engineers who are concerned. I've U heard them voice this.
13 Q Okay.
14 A I am not talking about going down and looking at ;
15 Ask: Has this ever happened? They'll tell you the pipe.
16 if it's happened or not; and they'll tell you where it's 17 happened.
I 18 Q They will?
18 A Yes. There's some of them out there that will;
~
20 you bet they will.
21 Q Well, why would they be telling on themselves?
22 A Because they're not going to go forward and offer 23 you information, but they're pretty concerned.
24 Q Is that right? ,
i M A ~They are concerned.
g p *U g D g
I h*
S y ,
1 Q Okay.
2 geli, we.11 keep that in mind. )
3 A And I really believe if you ask them that they 4
will not try to cover up anything and they will tell the 5
truth.
O Q Okay.
7 MR. IPPOLITO: The engineer is the only one authorize-8 to stamp "as-built"?
8 THE WITNESS: The as-built is stamped on after the 10 engineer has approved it in the condition that it's in.
11 My main concern is:
12
}(phonetic).
3 MR. IPPOLITO: Right?
14 THE WITNESS: Okay, and a craftsman does not know 15 how much stress or --
16 MR. IPPOLITO: I appreciate that.
I BY MR. GRIFFIN:
18
)sometimesanengineercanvoidanNCR Q
18 but just saying "as-bitilt"? That's one of the possibilities, is it not?
21 A I know one got voided; 22 3 wrote it. And a
24 MR. IPPOLITO: I was just trying to get clear in 25 my mind: what you said'is an engineer is called down to look l
._g . _
1 at this thing; and he'll say: Okay, as-built. That means 2 that he goes back and writes out something that says 3 "as-built"?
4 THE WITNESS:
5 g, 6 MR. IPPOLITO: Okay. As-built? i
! a 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. '
8 MR. IPPOLITO: The engineer 6 ? !
- THE WITNESS: Yes, he does.
10 MR. IPPOLITO: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: Now, actually, I guess maybe I should 12 clarify myself on this point.
28 L
14 i
15 l l l
18 gummmmmmmmmm.1 .
j 17 Now -- it wculd take 2 or 3 days to have to come l 1
18 back -- they have gone around that now; and everbody's right !
19 there on site; they are revised by an engineer who is not 20 looking at an entire, overall, picture.
21 MR. IPPOLITO: I gotcha.
22 THE WITNESS: That'sd what I was trying to bring 23 out. j 24 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
25 Q Okay. l l
l
. 1
_., p. .
~,-
1 1_
'inyouraffidavityouhavea--[youdescriba 2 I the work ,
3 .-
4 A ,
i 5 Q Yes.
o, 6 ]had not been trained and you,/ ,as an 7 -
v
{ l 8 - -
9 A Yes.
^
10 g Did'.'. 6 7 11 A Yes,,' 1,did.
12 okay.
Q -
13 A [ l
-most assuredly did. And you won't find!'
l s
14 now unless you go looking for ' 15
, 16 Q okay.
17 But, let me ask you this: we've oot your under-18 standing of the situation, and I don't think we need to 19 explore it thoroughly; but I need your opinion on this: i 20 If we go talk to will he -- 21 A r leertainlywill. 22 Q So far ar l trainingf 23 3 -- 1 24 A _oertainly will. ! a5 Now, this is the thing: ,, g e e
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4 . . l And r '. I maan, - 1 1 1
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doasn't -- and
^ '
2 ! , told them, you know,' . 4 I 3 ! 4 And they asked' '[ [aske , , t _ -u 5' in the world did you make a good grade on this test, if 6 youhadn'tbeentrained?"] 7 .}said,[, - g ___ l J 9 had gone out there.and{-; . 10
. evrF W r54 maw _m str-11 In other words
- ,did not know whatL .lwas deine.
12 And they had two men working full-time for about is six months backfitting and going back and reinspecting 14 everything that he had ever touched. 15 And they set [] L 16 17 18 19 20 r 21 Anybody else is out the gate that does what(- - l 22 does;and{ } m And y }comethroughyesterday. 24 , , I , ' 3 25 i And came throuqt. l l
~ '.
1 and one of the guys said, why don't you firo him?" 2 He says, "I can't." 4 i 3 They sent out{anotationaround, it says, "Do not 4 14EEl plot, or you're q.oing to get 6 ) 6 Sotheyb L 7 , ; , 8 9 Q Okay. ! 10 A
] .
11 Q Is that right? 12 Now, in your affida'vit here, you make some 13 characterizations that -- of some of the managers, Mr. Purdv, 14 and Mr. Tolson up there; and we already have your testimony 15 adequately preserved in here. 16 There is one question I.would like to ask you:
~
17 You indicate that 6 - had put a freeze on anybody sending 18 records out of the vault or reviewing records in the vault. 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q They must just stand there and look at them and 21 then get a note from
]
22 A They got a bunch of things like this laying on the 2 counter -- 24 Q You have to sign -- ! l 25 A You have to carry it in and give it to hi: and get ; i
1 him to sign givinc you authorization to go pull that out. ,
- i
; Q okay, now, is that to take it out of the vault? ,
i ; 3 A That's Just to look at it. You can't take i 4 out of the vault. 5 Q Can you make a copy? 6 A That's just to look at it. l 1
- )
1 Q 8 A At the counter, stand there at the window. Now,( 1 9 Q , jhas been put in another position; is l 10 this thing still in effect? 1 i 11 A Yes, it is. 12 It's in effect and now they've got it so that l is only a few out of each office can go down there and pull. 14 ( - And you've got to have those documents. ;, i 15 said, "I've, exceeded the amount by 10 people" -- he has 10 16 more people on there than they wanted. 17 , They only want one person authorized to go down the e i 18 and look at that stuf* 1 l 19 Now, what it is, is i 20 al WN i l 2 , 4 23 And if there's any question, if anything doesn't i 1 24 ce ncide,' 25 . -- n . v %ggy mmymc.m2 .
,,ymelumfi"A
- ___- -_ - m___ __ m
I 1 o I 3 But only a few people can do that now. 1 4 1 1 5 1 l l 7 8
~
8 3 from: ' And thelu - .. was standing there behind 10 us. 11 And he stood and argued with them a little bit, 12 and then he got real mad and reached over and crumpled.'it, 13 like that, and says, here's what you can do with this! 14 (Laughter) U And threw it in the wastebasket. 16 1just cracked up. And the .
- t. -
17 Q Let me read here for a minute. 18 a 19 (Pause) 20 A I knew!L s very well. Iworkedwith{ 21
]
22 Q Do you know if( _ U 1
~
24 A No,
. didn't. And has not been able to find a job.
~ working on --
4
. , . . . . - u. ; - -
1 8 i c m 2 I Q Oh , . _ i - l , 3 Do you knew what 4 ' h , 5 A Yes, sir. 6 g c 3 J 7 A They said I, L. ) . .- 8 6 'W ' '
~
tt 9 g i 10 11 : 12 13 They came along and they reworked the flange and 14 the nonconformance that he had shown no longer existed; 15 because the flange was reworked. But it created another 16 nonconforming condition, and another NCR was written on it. 17 In fact, two other NCRs were written on it. 18 So they came to M - .. ,-- and they ca:ne L - 19 to g and they said, well, this is no longer in existence; 20 we've got to get.this NCR signed-off. And there were two 21 other NCRs on it. 22 So he wrote, he referenced down at the bottom, M " reference per NCR," and give an NCR number; and then he 24 signed. , I I 2 And they
. . ., ,. ~ .
s -
J 1 , saying that i 2 when, in reality, he had o:'.ly siened . I 3 1 off that one NCR. i l i 4 And he had no chance for defense or.anything else, i l 5 Now, if they go in there, I'm sure they're goinc 6 to find this exactly the way it happened; but, he was out the 7 gate, fired, and put-on his termination papers h 8 And it - g
.' a-xm 10 ,
11 1
- 12 _. And I've been concerned ever since he got fired.
13 Q And Iu" 14 1
.; Is that right?
l 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A And I've got ._ IB Q Okay, can you, provide us with that number? 19 A (
- ]hasit.
20 Q Now the last thing in your a#fidavit here relates j 21 to abou 22 , 23 . . , . A_ well,{ .]
~
1 24 m s.J e ' u
' * " ' ' ' * * " " " " ' ' " " ' ' ' - - ! l
; Q I
l 25 i l ul
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1 or wes$,' 1;just speculating? 2 A . may have been specu'atine. ' Afte-i
)
3 4
) And it basically occurred asI. 'said.
L-t 5 It didn't have in there that. i ; 6 . T Q okay., 8 A Sut, I'mgoingtotelly6ufwhatthetermination 10 a- I 11
~
f
, \
13 {Andwhentheywentupandsearchedthecar,they 14 in the trunk of the car; and they fired him for ; 15 t 16 Have you talked to m
'O .: abotit this?
17 A No, I haven't; lnot here. L - 1 18 Q But you think- - got set up? l 19 A Iknow{3did. 20 Q Do you know anybody that saw, heard or was there
' i 21 ~I.
~~
2 A l No. l 23 (Laughter) 24 l Q I am trying to find out -- 25 A They had told - l l I i
llt . . . . 1 2 n - a 3 '-- Q Okay. ! 4 A That would be the only way that I would know to 6 trace it back to its source. 6 Q Okay. 7 Well, 1 think that's as far as we need to ao with 8 that one now. The affidavit pretty well explains the 9 situation no you know it to be third-hand. 10 Let's go into the other affidsvit here,'I - 11 . 12 You all completed it tsday? _ 18 A Yes. I 14 Q All right, l 15 (Pause) 16 Now, you said when we got together today, these 17 are things that have occurred since you made your original 18 affidavit? 19 A Tes. M Q Okay. M Let me read for a second here. 22 (Pause) j 2 I've been reading your second affidavit, here, and 24 it's well-written and it seems thorough. The b.:1k of the 25 affidavit appaars te indicate a change in precedures. s I j l
1 A Yes. 2 Q And you believe that this chance is gcing to i 3 result in a bypass of certain reviews that relate to 4 worker qualifications, material traceability, material
~
5 numbers; and this review bypass, in your estimation, is not 6 .
- =========
8 A That's right. 9 I mean, they won't be. 10 Q Okay. 11 And you say that, inthisaffidavitf 12 13 A i
\
14 l 15 10 17 18 19 1 20 21 Q Under this new concept they byoars N5? l 22 A QES review, we're coing to bypass; then it's goinq 2 to go -- 24 Q Straicht to ANI? , 25
; A It's going to go into the file for the N5 group to I
~. .
l
! and all of this, when overythire 1
N5, as a full packtge concspt; 2 ld is ce=pleted like that, then it's all to be sent to them; ! t 3 i they're combining two gobs into one. 4 Q They go to ANI -- , , 5 A fv f l 6 q 1 7 They don't have any training, you understand, of 8 the N5 group telling them what to look for when they 9 review -- r 1 Okay. Let me tell you,, j it's laid out 10 Q u 11 very clearly, the points you're trying to say here in the 12 affidavit. And what I'm going to have to do or(1' s l 18 is we're going to have to f.ind 14 is going to have to do, - i 1 15 somebody who ir already familiar with',_. u q i 16 . s already been appraised of 17 And if the NRC has not 18 this change -- 19 A Okay. 20 .. they will be appraised of it now. And NRC will that 21 have to evaluate whether this is a reasonable conceot 22 neets the needs or the requirements that they've alreadv 23 committed to do. we didn't have time to put 24 .Q Now, let me s'ay this: 25 i
-- but they started their procedural l this in the af fidavit
,e e
~\- ,
I change,.in fcet, today. 2 Q Okay. 3 A They were going to start the other day but the 4 NRC they said moved into the conference room -- 5 (Laughter) 6 MR. GRIFFIN: Is that right? 7 'MR. IPPOLITO: That's where we're located. 8 BY MR. GRIFFIN: l I 9 Q - Well, I don't see any real need for us to go into { 10 this; you've explained it very well. j 11 A Right. I i 12 Q And we have the information and we will evaluate 13 it. 14 Now, whether it constitutes a problem, if they're ) 1 15 entitled to do that -- all this, you know, the NRC will l 16 examine -- j 17 A Right. 18 Q -- and a decision wi1I have to be made. 19 A Right. 20 Q Now, in an instance like this, I'm not sure it 21 will result in a report being issued. Usually these are I 22 handled rather informally -- if this is a change of procedure; 23 I'm sure you're right: they probably are going to the 24 whole package concept. P5 But whether it complies with the requirements the I
)
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1 NRC makes, we'll evaluate. 2 A Right. That's good. 3 Q You also indicate in here 4 , ' 5 , A Yes. l 6 Q okay,.now, that is in conjunction with this 7 procedural change? , 8 A Up until today they had been 9 6 ] After today and the new procedures are installed, 10 they will be in procedure; .
- t 11 1
12 Q The affidavit does state are affected here; P 13 noticed that; that will make it easy for us to evaluate that. 14 And you say, asoftoday( 15 16 A I don't know they'll be available -- t' amme is l 19
.3 20 Inotherwords,[_
21 , 22 Q And this whole package concept will extend to 23 hanger packages, too? 24 A Yes. D Q Do you expect they would extend it to other things? 1 3_ , . .
.r- ~ ~ ~ '
i 1 A No, just hangers and piping. 2 l Q And no procedures have been wri :en to -- i 1 3 A They've been written, : suppose; I don't know what they are about; but they have not been made known. 5 Q And you indicate also in the affidavit there's 6 been a change on-site where packaces were lost, they apparentiv 7 found some of them; &nd tbay are looking -- j 8 A Yes. I have a list of those. 8 Q If that develops into a problem, in other words,- - 10 g 7,11 have to find them or -- 11 Q okay, that's not really something that we're 12 ready to get into right now. { - 13 - - 7, I4 You don't have any reason to believe somebody 15 threw them.away? 16 A No, I don't. 17 I just think that -- well,' is . . . . . _ 19 .
.m 20 21 22 Q Okay.
23 Another thing here that concerns me,', 24 .. s.s m aamminer- se:.u wr.ur.armsacu ;ne m ; m h m ; 3 j u i
- , i l
m 4 3 ' 2 Are these voided documents? 3 Yes, sir. A I 4 Q Are {- . 5 ,
]
6 A No,f. .
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L. - 7 The end result is,6 ' 8 9 -
--.3 10 Q Okay.
11 . 22 A Yes, everything but the latest, everything but 13 the current -- I' Q Okay. 16 pow, 16
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17 A I don't know what happens to them. 18 l Q Well, that's the question have. i 19 I A They're supposed to -- that's supposed to happen. 20
, Q Okay, well, let's assume that it is, unless we 21 '
develop -- l l 22 4 g,yy, 7,g.s assume that they're left in the 23 packages; and somebody goes in there and they pull thines, 24 I they will see the current documentation; everything is ; 25 copesthetic and fine; they don't see any need to look in that O . $ t 4
,7
. r
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} because everything is thero, 2 i Q ! understand the concept of havine the whole
.i I
3 package. 4 A Right. . r__ --- 5 Q - 6 7 8 9 A Well, they have to be. 10 Q Prom what you tell me here, I have no reason to
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11 believe there's anything suspicious about it. 12 Do you think there's something suspicious about it? 13 A only whenI
]askedthemwhy,youknow,they 14 were doing this, they just said they didn't want anybody 7
15 looking at the 1 16 Q Who told ']this, do you know?
< e r i
;may have asked:j ],
17 A l} la Q i 19 A That's ~- ' L *] . 20 And I'm be,ing evasive here, butI. m
--- I 21 .
s 22 Now, my particular opinion is not worth anything, 23 but -- 24 o 1 25 i i
1 . I 2 i;m-huh. Q 3 A And it's just more or less that it wouldn't apoear 4 that that much effort had gone into that one :rarticular 5 hanger. You've got thousands of hangers out there. This is 6 one thing that has escalated the cost of that plant, is 7 the number of revisions. 8 Q And rework?. 9 A That's right. And it would just appear that there 10 wasn't as much rework as there wac. 6 11 Q Okay,alsoinyouraffidavithere,( 12 13 14 1" 15 A res. 16 g ,.G., . L 17 i] 18 A gell,( - 19 r 20 21 Andf 3says,[ 22 And{"says,f 24 Q Okay, we've got the . 25 A Yuh, you sure do.
mumr. 1 Q Yes, h l 2 A The h is what you want on that, and 3 then check it N . 4 Q Okay. . 5 MR. IPPOLITO: That's all part of the pa::kage, 6 though? l 7 THE WITNESS: No. He had that in his hand by 8 itself. I don't know if he put it with the package; I don't 9 know. 10 BY MP. GRIFFIN:. 11 Q For the record, 12 w um] f A Andthen[hesaid-- 13 14 he says, 15 "well, 16 l 17 18 (Laughter) 19 Q Okay, and then you give an example in here of 20 -- a classic example -- of people not knowing -- M 21 l ] 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you've given that as an example of WM 25 ) They can be on the look-out for that.
. . . - , , , . . , . . . .- . , .- . c .-
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Okay, now we get to the point in here where they
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2 i 3 4 A That's right. 5
; But you give us a list of people that were avail-6 able 'or
~ that.
7 ' Nou, coming' out of' 8 9 i 10 . 11 Is it your understanding all these people that 12 ~ attended that meetiner were given these same instructions?
, 13 A That's what has.me concerned now.
14 1 Q Okay, who's -- 15 - < , A L # accountable to:L _ 16 e Q If we just askedi. L lwould*f 17 T 1 18 e A g.]is. 19 20 21 22
)
23 A I don't know of a one of them that wouldn't. 24
; They would not? i
~ . . ;_. . . .. .-
25 A They would no . 11 g 8
- W I
s 7 y, . . . 3 2 3
, Q Okay.
That's what I need to know. - 5 (Laughter) 6
. } I think thtt'st got us covered.
7 A Now, let me explain somethinc that's happened 8 today that we didn't have time to get in the -- 9 Q okay? 10 A -- something that happened later than this, that 11 we haven't had time to get in the record. i 12 They started this new procedure and we've been 13 frozen out of it as far as I can tell. 14 r, r-L 15 .. 16 17 18 19 so 21 1 They were talking,r-22 23 24 *
., 1 But it was the _l -hat reallv 1 25 got me, you know; and I couldn't believe hearing it.
l
I 1 1 Q So you think they already suspect 1 2 1 A Yes, I do. : believe they suspect certain i I 3 i individuals. l' 4 Now, another reason why I think they suspect ( ' 5 L.
') is because-g-Tl
-, \
6 And( , 9getting very unhappy. .a And{ v
.3 8 'l Q
Is { 2 9 A Yes,I ' 1' is. L 10 They were in there L 11 . - - 3-- 12 g By, L
]
13 A No. By . u 14 And one of them was saying, 15 16 17 ' I 18 4 6 19 But anyway a little big later ( , come in and L :
/
20 admitted that that's what they were saying 21 ~~'**
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22 . n a ' d.LU's. ! !.$ $s~.M%.-
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1 In other words, they're giving M a hard time. < s J l 2
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3 4 Q Well, 'M maybe we'll have an opportunity to 5 talk toI either on-site or off-site some day. You have 6 alluded to h umerous time in your affidavit and it seems i 7 like( 8 6] 9 6 ) have I or Mr. Ippolito here threatened 10 you in any manner, or offered you any rewards in return for 11 this statement? 12 A No, you haven't. 13 Q Have you given this statement freely and 14 voluntarily? 15 A Yes, I have. 16 Q Is there anything further you would care to 17 add? 18 A Yes, I would like to add something to the record: 19 I need my job! -- as bad as anybody out there. 20 But I will not sell my soul for 30 pieces of 21 silver! 22 I have no axe to grind with M or almost 23 anybody out there. I like' ] 24 The ortly reason I'm in here is because I am 25 concerned with the qual'ity of the plant, and not because I
- i. .
l .. I-3' have a vendetta against anybody. I don't want to see the 2 plant shut down. I'd like to see it opera:6 safely. 8 But I do want it to be safe. 4
.Q Yes.
6 A And that is my only reason for coming in here. 6 g g,yy, 7,d like you to know as a representative of I the NRC, I appreciate your coming in'. We have our routine 8 inspections. And it is much easier for us to identify 8 problems on the site if the personnel who work en these sites 10 will tell us where best to look. That doesn't mean that if 11 they tell us something that turns out not to be correct -- 12 because somebody else had a review or somebody else had input 13 that they're not aware of -- still and all, those persons
- I' who come to the NRC and give us information about the 15 substance of their job, it makes it much easier for us.
16 A Right. 17 1 Q So I put you in that category, and I aopreciate 18 your -- 19 A The reason why I say I've done it is I may not have 20 anything to contribute but I know that if there is an 21 investigation thoroughly performed, and you say to me: this 21 is a safe plant, I will sleep better at night. 23 If I don't do anything, if I don't do what ! feel 9
~4 like I should, if I see something that's not quite right and j 25 I I don't report it and I leave and later something happens to l
s 4
, t 6
i
. l 1
1
, that plant, I would feel responsible in a way for whatever I ,
2
- was. That's whv : welcome an ::RC arvestigatic- -' 4
's ! l 3 If it's not, I want something done safe, I want to know it.
4 about it, even though it could practi: ally destroy me 5 financially and every other way. 8 Q Well, the last thing I'd like to say is -- for the 7 record is that the -- we've entered into the terms of 8 confidentiality; as my part of it end those that receive the 9 information you give, will endeavor to preserve your con-10 fidentiality; and you will, too; and I hope nothina occurs 11 in your job on-site during your day-to-day -- I hope you get 12 to keep your job, too. I see no reason why you shouldn't, 13 unless you know something that I don't. 14 A Well, I don't. 15 Q Okay, let's hope it remains this way. 16 A Like I told him today whenever he said the early I outs and the absenteeism and the late would be considered L8 first in the layoff; and he said, if you're here and you're 19 not performing your work, you'll be laid off. Well, I was in the other room,I s.- 22
.up i "_4.,s.--. % C 3 g3 .. . 22; a-* 2/ . ,_p.u eum 24 05 -
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1 Isaid,( 2 3 M .3 4 And[ 5 Go in and ask @ f you I 6 don'tbelieveme) i 7 And I said he also said the absenteeisms, the 8 lates and the people who were off for weeks at a time would 9 be the first ones out the gate. 10 He said, well, I can understand that. W 22 , 12 l 13 f 14 15 ButthenIsaid,h. _ , , 16 g7 19 now, 20 (Laughter) 21 Q Okay. 22 A And he said,# ] 2 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 24 W ; have you got anything statement you would like I 25 to make?
- f. .,.
. . I 1 I '
- 1 Well, as'
) continuer.
.o work i n
2 , there and infornation is centinue? :o be crevided, we'll 3 be in' contact with you :. 4 I 5 g 6 7 We want to make that clear and on the record. l 8 And we just reiterate our concern about 8 confidentiality. I don't mean to beat a dead horse at thic ! I 10 point, but I really want to express GAPS concern as well, 11 over the issue of Region IV personnel being utilized to 12 investigate. 13 . There is one thing I've cet to say 14 now before I go: 15 You asked me a while ago about mv knowleden of i 16 - 3 , ; 17 18
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19 mq5,93:y;-2;.:E CPZd <wwiW t 20 21 i m. 22 ,.. , t 23
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sygw . I 24 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 25 A .: e 9 l . l w.
1 ! ) 2 MR. GRIFFIN: I think we already know about that 3 particular incident; and your statement will be considered 4 corroborative of that. 5 I h ) The other person was 6 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 7 ( too. 8 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 9 But we will be exploring that. 10 M l So that's the reason why I say I , 11 know that there are times when they do falsify documentation i 12 because I was there and I heard it. 13 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 34 Tom, you got anything? 15 MR. IPPOLITO: Nothing. Thank you. 16 MR. GRIFFIN: Okaye that's it. 17 (Whereupon, at 9:20 p.m., the interview was l 18 terminated.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 - 25
s , ' I - 2 !, . 3 This is to certify tha: the attachof proceedine;s before the
, ; ?. COtoC55 ION In the matter of: COMANCHE PEAK, OI, CONFIDENTIAL INTERVIEW s ;
, Datie cf Proceeding: ( } 1
, PlaceofProceeding:( } ;
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original : 1, < transcript for the file of the Commission. i to James R. Burns, Jr. It Official Reporter - Typed 12 O >* s ,.
~~' " "
&+ffW /DNY J Of ficiad Rep 9::er - Signa'ture
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l l TAYLOi ASSOCIATES 1 RECtSTERED PROFES$10N AL REPCRTERS NCRFOLK. VIRGINl A
- 6 '
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I 1 l the QC inspector changed it from a Class-2 to a Class-3. I ; 2 '
! Now, there are people who can te'.1 you mere about i
3 this than ! can; but if you're running along a line and 4 you got a Class-2 and it connects into a Class-5, there's a 6 point there where it changes from a safety-related to 6 nonsafety-related. Now, there's one Class-2 has to be s 7 continuous form end to the other; eventually, that flance -- 8 you'll get a pipe coming out the middle of this; that's a Class-2. 10 The reasons for changing it, I am assuming they've 11 got a reason for changing it. It starts out as safety-12 related, then they downgrade it to a nonsafety-related; 18 non-ASME, it does not have to be reviewed by ANI, then. 14 , Q I see. 15 Will, do you know of any particular systems, 16 piping systems, that are quality or safety system that you 17 personally know have been downgraded so that they would 10 miss that ANI review? 19 A I would cuess a'~ lnowandthen. Or I L u a 20 21
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24 l ;,ve had several instances Of that.
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1 i __ i ,; e l - Q I understand how : works,'e ; And in an 3 l instance like this and in this tvpe of concern, what we 4 would need to de is to try to isolate one of them so we 6 could go have a look at it. 6 A okay, that I will have to do; Icando.{ 3 8 Q Okay. If you can give us an example of one or 8 a couple that have been upgraded or downgraded, we can look 10 at themandseeif{ 11 2 - 13 A Like I said in the last month we've had several 14
, come through like that.
15 Q Okay. r - 16 A I wish- lwould talk to you.
~
s 17 Q Well, I tell you, when we kick off an interview, i i 18 we're liable to talk to anybody on site. 18 A Because'w ~lhas got information on all of this, 20 Q A ict of times: investigations or inspections start i 21 out with people who ara'willing to take the risk of cominc U forward and telling us of their concerns. Once we have U a starting point, then we normally go en site, wherever we 24 need te go -- whether it's vendors or on-site -- and then we 25 star: interviewing larce numbers of peo:le; anybody tha: ,
<1 i
( l I l i S & r )
, l' l
I might have information. We usually are able to resolve these 2
. issues.
8 i But if the peeple we talk to won't talk to us, 4 they won't tell us the truth, then we've cet problems. 3 But we've found in gel.gral if we talk to enough people, 6 and the pecole that we're talking to realize we're not just 7 going to be talking to them, but we're talking to all their 8 people who work with them; usually people will shoot 9 straight with us. They will tell us the truth -- not always, 10 but a lot of times. 11 And we usually end up getting our answers if we
~~
talk to enough people.
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13
'were.
A We 1.1, I'm sure: w - talk to you if1 i -.-- I approached; but' will not come forward. 15 Q Okay. 16 A But'L - 17 o- A.a.- (; .
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18 Q Okay. We'll keepIL 1
.,;in mind.
19 - 7 A can give you numbers, everything. i scan L > - 20 give you everything -- everything I can't furnish you,{ ; 21 can give you, e
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Q You make reference in your affidavit here to 23 a cocument,e 24 i
. ..wya.- ,. :- .;p - -. A i
23 <, A Right.
,p,- .
o
I I 8 , Q Yousay{anNCRwaswrittenagainst -- was written 2 by a reviewer agains this entry he made, and you sav -- is 3 , it the. weld data card that passed through your hands? e 4 A My desk is here. Right here beside me was Sue 5 Neumeyer's desk. Right back over here facing the wall was 6 Linda Barnes' d'esk. They were discussing this card. They 7 had discovered that the PT report on it, the dates did not 8 coincidewiththatinspectiondate.] 9 Soi . wrote up i_ 10 .
- ~l 11 Q I'm already somewhat aware of'this issue, and what 12 I need to do .4s figure out what you know about it.
13 You saw it? 14 A I saw? 15 1,
, r 16 Q Okay. You say thatf -
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17 18 A Whenf ' eame back, after'
] vent.'L . .
19 1when'
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21 Q And this had been signed by(. ~ i 22 Yes, it had. A 23 Q okay. l l l i 24 And the _ ; i . 2 A Yes, : saw the ,
... ,g -.e+
1 i Q Okay. i s 2 , A I had seen it before and I saw it after. l- ! 3 ' Q Okay. And it's your belief that this was falsifi-4 cation? 5 A Yes, it was. 6 That the man had either falsified the documentation 7 or he had signed and not gone back down and looked at it. 8 They're supposed to inspect that every time. 9 But', ,jdid basically the same thina that
, i 10 , . did there, and . . -
t- w 11 l
.J ;
12 Q When did that octur? 13 A That occurred -- 14 Q Hold it. I think we're coing to aet to that later 15 on. 16 A Yer. 17 Q Okay. 18 You said in your affidiavit here that you remember 19 20 l 21 mms *%~)2"M 22 23 A That's right. 24 Q How did you find out about this? , i I 25 A Kell, ! I
1 I t i 2 '
.-mu.,- .,,me ;1.,, - e*vrarTF i I
i 3 7 {
- a
- - e , 4 And . - said,' '
f
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6 So instead of doing anything else, ; 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q Okay, Is there any way we can identify where this 13 ! is now? Is there any you can tell us to help us find this? I 14 Or is this just something you heard about? 15 A No. No. No. It came right through my hands there. 16 Q This was<. i 17 A Oh, no, hon, thi s was -- this is where I am right 18 now. 19 Q Oh, is that right?
" n 20 A I L' -
21 Can you think of any way we can identify that? Q 22 A Yes, I can ask<, 23 Now, I don't want you -- keep in mind confiden-Q 24 tiality. I - i
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25
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, . . . 54.51D Comanche Peak, did you ever witness any event or events which, ,
2 in your judgnent, reflected an effort to either put pressure-3 on .
~
a
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- 9 5t j Objection. That's a compound i 6l question.
7 I would ask you to ask thote two points separate 1,v.
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8 9 Q Do you understand any difference between the - t 10 phraces "put pressure on" and " discourage from doir.g the job"*' 1: A Yes, sir. 12 Q Okay. .
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13 Then, would you answer the question: ! s 14 , j ~e 9 16 A No. sir. 17 Q Did you see any QC person who, in your judgment, i la was being discouraged from carrying out their j'ob l' responsibilities? 20 A " Job responsibility" -- I need to knvo what you're . 21 talking about.
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22 Q All right. .- in your judgment. 23 based,upon what you sav, was b~eing discouraged from doing what'. 24 they thought they should do. 25i A Tes, sir. f ,}
\
I i (Exhibit 2-A) I i a
ee= 44
. . l*
i.'1 _ i e i l Q Can you relate a pa:ticular incident? I l 2! A Yes, sir. 3 Q Vould you do that and start, if you would, by first identifying who' involved,in the l
. w - ,;
3 incident that you are now going to relate? il 6 F i l A ..
# lI Q And who was the person or persons, if any, who youi4,j -
8 saw that were, attempting to' _
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from i ) I j doing what she thought was her job. j 10 ] I object. I don't belive there's any Il foundation that this witness knows '- . 12 - 7 I think it is speculative.
- I IU You are asking her to define what Sue Anne Neuneyer 14 1.5 j l
1 16 ..
'7 I think it is speculative.
18 '
.t I will withdraw it for the nonent. l 19 9 )
20 Q Did you knew ]beforeyou saw the 21 incident that yot.'re going to talk about? 22 A Yes, sir.
' ~
'3 Did you know what jobi Q ,
~
og I
' I A Yes, sir.
SC - Q What job did l l
. 4
l-I I A vos s . 2 Q And where did 'jperforn :ne work at the cine 3 that you knew ~ I .$
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l a e - - - A - was -- 5 Q And the event that you saw that involved pressure 6 on ., did that occur. . _ 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Did you know what kind of work'.': .did\. 9 .. 3, 10 Yas, sir. A ! 1 11 Q What was the basis of your knowledge for that? 12 g 13 14 15 16 ,
'I /
} I would strike the answer as not 18 responsive. I move to strike it.
I' You a s ke.d for the basis of } [ knowledge of what
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20
- ] and IL _.gave us [ 'p e r c ep t i e n of whatI
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s - L , 21 1 did, not the basis l
.a 22 23 24 25 l -
i l 1
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- 0 7. .
' I e an.: l l
At this point, rather than i l 2 go back over the record, I will ask the question again
, - 7 and if, e
jfeels the answer'is not responsive he can nake his objection again. 5 ( 3 6 Q What was the basis for your knowledge of j 7' what ] job consisted of? 8, A I knew what:. responsibility
; s 9
was.
}
10 And how did.you.know that? Q 11 A ..
] i 12 Q Was 13 14 7J e ~
15 A At that time I A te I nean
- i 17 IS Q At the time of the event that you are i
19 going to relate to us? i 20 A Yes. 21 i Q And was(g' 22 23 +rr~wd.T m M , gg. ;.;g;g w3;ummu..,9 2e - ~.---- - . . ~ 7,_ .,. . -4. <,m, vn w;y
^ ~
;3 Objection; compound question.
j - I I i - - -
- - - - - - - _ - _ - - - - _ - - - - - - - - _ u
; ask you to ask those separately.
3 Q I am not going to do'that. Go ahead. I ,. t
- e. !_ -)Notemyobjection e please.
3 THE WITFESS: I was familiar with 6 7 W 9 I r. - j 10 _ , _ _ Q
, , . ,_,Did{_.]everhave occasion to discuss with 33 youwhat{.)cbresponskbilitiesconsistedof?
12 A I knew what they consisted of. { - s. 13 14 y 15 , g ',
. 'j I move to strike the answer as 37 not responsive to the question.
7' 18 i s l , 3, Q Did {' F- , Jever personally discuss c - 20 Y** Y g, A Yes, we discussed it. i
.,2 j Q 3efore the time that you observed the )
4 event tha'r'I have asked y.ou about previously? e
! A Yes.
24
, Q Would you tell me at the cine of this event i
i l I l
i l; 4 i ! - I who was present other than and yourself?
.I - i 2 / -
A - 3 Q And can you tell me what did you observe at that time? 5 " A L ]orderedi-.
-)
, Q Andwhen(] ordered ( _
8
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A ~ ltoldI lthat 10 11 12 13 1s ' Q And what did!- '!say in respon.Se 15 to that, if anything, as you recollect? 16 A .l i, L -L
'7
' Now, this
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18 '1' t_s all .I c a n s,la y ; it is all I heard. , 19 Q 'I ' m s o r r y . To the best of your ability l 20 i could you clarify when i I 21 22 A At that particular tims 1 toldf 23 24 I
. ,, 3 -
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; Q And did -, e r:p l a in to ;in your i
i i f
a-5 . i '. a
.i.
5, - .
', hearing 2 A l 1
3 l 4 . 7 i J
$ Q Do'you know of your own personal knowledge 6 what ultimately happened with regard to that matter?
7 Did" ~ y i 8 A Yes,( _
.l.
s 9 How do you know that? Q
' ~
10 A L 3said' s L s
!did.
11 { } Obj ec tion. I move to strike 12 all this testimony as hearsay about this event. 13 Commencing with the question that elicited the response. 14 thati 15 .
.) And then I have a note 16 on the question. But that is the substance of l) i l
17 response down through this point. ' And most.particularly 4 18 the last response. I 19 I believe the witness is l 20 testifying to what } observed.
$ Your last question, 21 j
22 was -- 23 )I at: talking about the 24 totality of the testimony. i I 25 The to:ality of the testimony i I . I
s . 4-84-039 REPORT OF INTERVIEW
, WITH -
. .)aBrown& Root,Inc.(B&R) jattheComanchePeakSteamElectric
--Station (CPSES),, was interviewed by NRC Investigator [, ,
,said , ',, had been employed at, the CPSES for(
l
' was shown B&R stainless steel inspection travelers for weld nos. 51,'53, 65, 66, 73,102, 209 and 285 which contained documents -
bearing' 3 signature. Afterreviewingthetravelers,{ ; was questioned about. 'lrecollection of how the travelers and-nondestructive examination (NDE) requests (" chits") were used by QC inspectors, conducting inspections on spent fuel pool liner plate in 1978 and 1979. Jsaid: ]did not have a clear recollection of the old procedures;'but said! lreview of the above listed travelers led,- lto believe that categorf 1 (fit-up and cleanliness of above step) on the travelers had been reserved for the seam weld (the inside weld) rather than the embed. ' initial tack saifweld which connected
! believed the plates the chits were used or the plate in place of to category 1 on the' travelers for QC sign off (acceptance) of the first hold point during the construction of the liner plate.
' ^
_said these plates were assembled on a concrete slab, and said
'that'his[ signature on the chit for category 1 represented.' lacceptance i of th'e fit-up and cleanliness for initial assembly of the~pla~tes.
]said' 'arecalled that after the plates were assembled, they were lifted into the fuel building using a crane.
, Esaidthat f ', review of the travelers indicated that other QC inspectors also conducted inspections on the liner plate and signed off the chits as QC acceptance for fit-up and cleanliness prior to the initial tack weld connecting the plates.
]saiditwas 3understandingthat'"
)hadbeenaskedto
.J s ai d that after revi, ewing some of the. travelers bearingl ] signature j in cat egory 1, ] believed weld (final ink'ide weld). ( 1must have been signMg off for the seam 1said the in later revised from a five-fioint trav'eler to an eight-point traveler.
,said the procedures that implemented the use of the eight-point
' traveler referenced the prior use of chits.
noted that on the inspection traveler for weld no. 51 the embed
'used was larger than normal, which led 3to believe the sign off by
., said that at
'the time EXHIBIT (3) l l
I 4-84-039 1 l I REPORT OF INTERVIEW l WITH _
.,)aBrown& Root,Inc.(B&R)'.
jat the Comanche Steam Electric StatTon (CPSES), was interviewed by NRC Inve.stigator' jatthe CPSES. ' jwas questioned about'_ Jknowfedge of the use of chits for
. stated the
'(QC) inspection. , chits had been Jstated thatused whenas aa QCrequest forsigned inspector a Qualtiy Control his name on a chit it consfituted QC acceptance of the work. [ ,)nas shown an inspection traveler for weld no.12 on the spent fuer pool in Unit II. 9 stated the inspector's,.- (not further identified) signature
-on the' chit represented category 1 (fit up and cleanliness) on the five
~
hold point B&R stainless steel inspection travelers. . said that
' lsignature indicated to' .that the Q,C inspector had' conducted the ins ~pection and accepted the" wo'rk. ' ; said[. ' believed that"- -
_was questioned as to whether eac'h QC hold point listed on a traveler had a corresponding nondestructive examination (NDE) chit signed by the QC inspector. said that ( ', did not believe chits had been issued for each of ths five hold points listed on the traveler.
~
expressed the opinion that an NDE chit attached to the inspectiotr - traveler for the category 1 (fit-up and cleanliness) precluded the necessity for the same QC inspector to sign the inspection traveler. l j l EXHIBIT (6)
4 4-84-039 4 REPORT OF It!TERVIEW WITH On! Jat'the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station (CPSES), was interviewed.by NRC Investigatori
'lat the CPSES. [ was represented durirg this intirvie by
~
' s ai d ' had been einployed in his present capacity' at the CP3ES for jwas questioned about. knowledge of the svents related toi
.said thatl . . ,~~i but~'sai d
' 3did. not recall having any conversations withi
;also said i was not involved in resolving the problems related to O
I 1said that in had not been aware of the problems r]efated t'o[ t' I g -. l 1 l l EXHIBIT (8) [
4-84-039 i REPORT OF INTERVIEW WITH On.
. (TUGCO) at the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station (CPSES), was interviewed by NRC Investigator i 2,lat the CPSES.
said' 3 stated t lhad been employed at the "Jwas first employed by Brown & .goot, Inc. CPSESU (B&R), and tnen became a TUGC0'empl.oyee in January 19$4. Isaid that in March 1983 during the time thatl
' and
~
2wereasked~ said that as a night shift supervisori. linitially became involved with the .
.1because the paperwork was incomplete. . said they were assessing the' relationship between the ,'
], ' said tnat during the timel ' was reviewing
,7 tho mi1Twrights had possession of the NDE chits and thei attempttoresolvetheproblem;3obtaine[copiesoftheo_1dpr6cedures s said that in. ]'~
and prints and also reviewed some of the NDE chits. ^ saif 'had worked on this problem for about a week when the responsib'ility'foY the. resolution of the problem was transferred to
'said that aftern itook over responsibility for!
~
,i
.salo. ]nad no further involvement in resolving the issue other than to arrange
]to complete the. deficient paperwork. indicated that' did not learn of ;allegationuntilafter]
s 6 EXHIBIT (9) ;
I 4-84-039 i i REVIEW OF THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD PANEL TESTIMONY 0F - On , 5anEBASCOServicesIn'. c (EBASCO) employee working as~a Texas Utilities Generating Company (TVGCO) representative to the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station (CPSES) Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel (ASLB) hearings, testified before the CPSES ASLB on the liner plate issue. The ASLB transcript for, ' testimony (pages 45316 through 45457) was reviewed as part of"tnis investigati,on, and the following points were extracted and paraphrased related to jallegation.
- 1. Page 45329 - The nondestructive examination (NDE) chits were a request for a Quality Control (QC) inspection, and the inspector's signature en the chit constituted QC acceptance.
- 2. Page 45352 < NCR M83-00795 was written for welds that had no documentation to support that cleanliness inspections had been conducted on the seam welds.
- 3. Page 45350 - The incomplete liner plate inspection travelers could '.
not be placed in the vault. 4 Page 45352 - The NDE chits were not controlled documents.
- 5. Page 45353 - No deficiency reports were written documenting the incomplete travelers.
- 6. Page 45356 - The five-point traveler used in 1978 and 1979 had no sign off line for the seam weld.
m
- 7. Page 45357 . said not write an1'CR because[. icorrectedthetravelerin1982,butdid was not aware that any seam welds had yet been made.
- 8. Page 45361 - No documentation existed for cleanliness inspections i on the inside (seam) welds. 1 I
- 9. Page 45363 - 3 believed line 1 on the five-point traveler had l been reserved for the seam weld.
- 10. Page 45365 - No chits have been found for the seam weld.
- 11. Page 45372 - The chits.were not intended to be used as permanent records.
- 12. Page 45380 - Isaid craft employees (not further identified) had told him they had seen chits for the inside weld.
- 13. Page 45393 _ said.he believed the QC inspectors had intended to sign off on step 1 on the travelers when both the outside and inside cleanliness inspections had been completed.
EXHIBIT (10) 1 ____________________.____________.__..___..__.____j
4-84-039 i
- 14. Page 45455 - The f;DE chits were still used af ter the procedures authorizing the use of chits was changed, but they were not used as ;
QC documentation.
- 15. Page 45457 - QC inspection records are in some cases under th'e control of construction personnel.
e-l EXHIBIT (10) ;}}