ML18040A215

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Transcript of 910822 NMP NPP Interviews of C Kolod, I Ferrer,F Gerardine & a Petrelli in Scriba,Ny.Pp 1-46
ML18040A215
Person / Time
Site: Nine Mile Point 
Issue date: 08/22/1991
From:
NRC OFFICE FOR ANALYSIS & EVALUATION OF OPERATIONAL DATA (AEOD)
To:
Shared Package
ML17056C371 List: ... further results
References
CON-IIT07-112.0A-91, CON-IIT07-112.0B-91, CON-IIT7-112.0A-91, CON-IIT7-112.0B-91 NUREG-1455, NUDOCS 9305100164
Download: ML18040A215 (98)
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Text

QRIGINAL OFFICIALTIVASCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS Agency:

Title:

Docket No.

Nuclear Regulatory Commission Incident Investigation Team Nine Mile Point Nuclear Power Plant Interview of:

CHRIS KOLOD IRINEO FERRER FRED GERARDINE ANTHONY PETRELLI LOCATION:

Scriba, New York DATE:
Thursday, August 22, 1991 PgOES.

1 4 3 AI'&RILEY&ASSOCIATES, LTD.

1612 KR N.W;, Suite 300 shingon, D.C 20006 (zoz) zH-sNo.

9305100164 911031

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION INCIDENT INVESTIGATION TEAM 6

Interview of 8

CHRIS KOLOD 9

IRINEO FERRER 10 FRED GERARDINE 11 ANTHONY PETRELLI 12 13 (Closed) 1 4 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Conference Room A

Administration Building Nine Mile Point Nuclear Power Plant, Unit Two Lake Road

Scriba, New York 13093
Thursday, August 22, 1991 The interview commenced, pursuant to notice, 25 at 3:30 p.m.

4 El,

PRESENT FOR THE IIT:

William Vatter, INPO John Kauffman, NRC Walton Jensen, NRC 10 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

C'Q

P R 0 C

E E

D I N G

S

[3:30 p.m.]

MR. VATTER: It's August 22, 1991.

We'e at the 4

Nine Mile Point administration building to conduct an 5

interview with some system engineers who had some 6

understanding of equipment that was in operations during the 7

event at Nine Mile Point Unit Two on August 13, 1991.

We'l begin the interview by everyone identifying 9

themselves.

My name is Bill Vatter, and I'm an employee of 10 INPO on loan to the IIT.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

John Kauffman, out of NRC 12 headquarters.

13 14 15 16 17 18 MR. JENSEN:

Walton Jensen, NRC headquarters.

MR. PETRELLI:

Anthony Petrelli, system engineer.

MR.

GERARDINE:

Fred Gerardine, system engineer.

MR.

FERRER:

Randy Ferrer, system engineer.

MR.

KOLOD:

Chris Kolod, system engineer.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Good.

Let's start by having 19 each of you give us a little bit of your background, and if 20 you also could indicate your area of responsibility here at 21 Nine Mile Point.

Tony, could you start?

22 MR. PETRELLI:

I have been on Niagara Mohawk about 23 a year and a half.

I recently graduated from college.

I 24 have a degree in mechanical engineering.

I m responsible 25 for condensate and feedwater heater systems.

I F

I

2 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Fred?

MR.

GERARDINE: I'e been working for Niagara 4

Mohawk for the last two years.

Before that I was working 5

out here with Stone

& Webster from January of '85.

Before 6

that I worked as a startup engineer at Wolf Creek for two 7

and half'years. I'e got a degree in physics.

I have responsibility for the residual heat 9

removal system, neutron monitoring system, and standby 10 liquid control system.

12 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Good.

Randy?

13 MR.

FERRER:

My name is Randy Ferrer.

I work with 14 the system engineering group. I'e been with Niagara Mohawk 15 for about two and a half years. I'e been in the nuclear 16 industry probably since 1977, working for various companies.

17 I'e been here on site since 1984, working with Stone 18 Webster.

I have a degree in nuclear science.

My major 19 system responsibilities are the feedwater

system, feedwater 20
controls, and reactor water cleanup.

21 22 23 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Chris?

MR.

KOLOD: I'e been with Niagara Mohawk here on 24 site since startup in 83.

A degree in mechanical 25 engineering and responsible for the cleanup

system,

H

~

1 condensate

demins, and the spent fuel system.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

I see that Randy and Chris, 3

you both have some responsibility for cleanup.

Could you 4

indicate how that responsibility is divided?

MR.

KOLOD:

Presently I'm in SRO cert class and 6

have been for the last three and a half months, and Randy is 7

taking over the system in the interim.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

So you probably have more 9

understanding of the history,

and, Randy, you probably have 10 more understanding of the current performance.

12 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

Let's see.

Apparently, Tony and 13

Randy, you also have an interface there on feedwater 14 heaters.

I'm not sure which.

Could you indicate the 15 division of responsibility in that condensate feed area?

16 MR. PETRELLI:

Well, basically I have from the 17 condenser condensate pumps through the booster pumps through 18 the feed, and through the heaters up to the suction valve 19 for the feed pumps.

That's where the condensate really 20

ends, and then the feedwater system starts.

21 22 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

MR.

FERRER:

Right now Tony is basically 23 responsible for the extraction steam

system, as well as some'4 of the heating, and that normally ties in with some of the 25 plant performance.

I L

2 valve?

MR. VATTER:

Who owns the feedwater pump suction MR.

FERRER:

Actually, Tony does, but I'm familiar 4

with the problem of the valve not opening.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

All right.

Now, it's our understanding that in the event, 7

shortly after the reactor

scrammed, the feedwater pumps 8

tripped.

It doesn't matter really who talks first.

I 9

guess, really, Randy, this would be your question.

Could 10 you tell us your understanding of how that occurred?

MR.

FERRER:

My understanding is that the 12 condensate booster pumps, I think A and B, were operating, 13 and feed pumps B and C were in operation.

At the time of 14 the trip, when they lost the UPS power, it appears that the 15 min flow valve opened on the booster

pump, as well as on the 16 feed pumps, the pumps that were operating.

We had a low--

17 probably the pumps tripped on low suction flow, and this was 18 confirmed by the automatic start of the C booster pump.

19 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Do those min flow valves go 20 open --

What causes them to go open, and is that exactly 21 what happened?

22 MR.

FERRER:

The valves are modulated by a flow 23 signal.

If the flow signal is lost, saying that you have no 24 flow, the valves would go open.

It would be a normal 25 indication, because they are processed through the Foxboro

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7 1

cabinets, which take their power supply from the UPS system.

MR. VATTER:

So the control for the valves is not 3

lost; it's the logic that tells the valve what it ought to 4

be doing.

MR.

FERRER:

That's correct, yes.

MR. VATTER:

These are air-operated valves; is 7

that correct?

Or are they motor-operated valves?

10 MR.

FERRER:

They are air-operated valves.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

The feedwater pump discharge valves and suction 11 valves were not affected; is that correct?

12 xs 14 15 MR.

FERRER:

At that time, those valves were open.

MR. VATTER:

They didn't move.

MR.

FERRER:

To my knowledge, no.

MR. VATTER:

But the feed reg valves, did they 16 have some room?

17 18 valves?

19 20 21 22 LV-10.

23 MR.

FERRER:

Are we talking about the LV-10 MR. VATTER: I think that's it.

MR.

FERRER:

Okay.

MR. VATTER:

The feedwater regulating valves,

yes, MR.

FERRER:

Okay.

The LV-10 valves, if they lost 24

power, would fail as is, because they lost power, which is 25 also supplied from the UPS system.

C L I

8 1

MR. VATTER:

Do you know which UPS supplies those 2

components?

MR.

FERRER:

I'm not sure now.

I had it written 4

down.

MR. VATTER:

But you are sure that it's one of 6

these five.

MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

That's 1A, B,

C, D, or G.

MR.

FERRER:

I believe it's either 1A or B.

10 MR. VATTER:

Were there any other problems that 11 occurred immediately that you'e aware of that affected 12 feedwater.

xs MR.

FERRER:

The only two problems that were 14 presented to me were the tripping of the pumps and the 15 suction valves'ot opening later on.

16 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

We'l talk about those suction 17 valves in a minute.

18 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

One of the booster pumps tripped 19 early on in the event, it's speculated.

Do you have any 20 knowledge about that?

21 MR.

FERRER:

All I know is that the A and B were 22 operating.

Then, when we went back and reviewed the panel, 23 the A pump tripped and the C pump was running.

I think you 24 talked to an operator named Jim Graff.

25 MR. VATTER:

So that's the A condensate booster

4 A

~ ~

1 pump MR.

FERRER:

Correct.

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

And the C condensate booster pump 4

never started.

Tony, I guess we'e getting into your area.

6 What's your understanding of the cause of that trip?

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Or do you have any theories that 8

might explain what happened?

MR. PETRELLI:

I know about the problem, but I 10 have to talk to Randy more on that.

MR.

FERRER:

When the min flow valve opened on the 12 feedwater

pumps, we believe that the system exceeded its 13 capacity to supply water to the feed pumps, and we 14 immediately got the trip off the feed pumps.

I don't know 15 if the condensate booster pump tripped first or if the feed 16 pump tripped.

That's difficult to say.

17 MR. VATTER:

What would be some possible cause of 18 condensate pump trip 19 20 21 right.

22 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Booster pump MR. VATTER:

Yes, condensate booster pump; that' Would it be low suction pressure, or would it be 23 overload?

What are the possible trips on the condensate 24 booster pump?

25 MR.

FERRER:

The possible trip was the low suction

lg

10 1

pressure.

When we reviewed the flags on the relays, we 2

didn't see any relay flags on the pumps.

MR. VATTER:

So there wasn't an electrical 4

problem.

MR.

FERRER:

To my knowledge there's not an 6

electrical problem.

MR. JENSEN:

Does the condensate booster pump have 8

a min flow valve?

10 MR.

FERRER:

Yes, it has a min flow valve.

MR. JENSEN:

Is it supplied by the UPS?

MR.

FERRER:

Yes, it is.

As far as the min flow 12 valve, I think it's the FV-38 valve.

It is supplied by the 13 Foxboro cabinets, as far as the signal going to the racks.

14 MR. JENSEN:

Would it have opened on loss of power 15 from the UPS?

16 MR.

FERRER:

Yes, it would have opened.

Once you 17 lose that signal saying that you do not have sufficient flow 18 going through that pump, the valve should open.

19 MR. JENSEN:

So it might have tripped, then, for 20 the same reason that the feedwater pumps tripped, because 21 the min flow valve opened?

22 MR.

FERRER:

I think the min flow valve itself 23

opening, you know, just one pump, really shouldn't have 24 caused it.

I'm only guessing on that one because I haven' 25 seen that happen, but with all the valves opening at one

I ~

11 1

time and the LV-10 valve not being able to respond, that in 2

itself would be sufficient enough to cause a low suction 3

pressure within the system.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

We went out with the I&C this 5

morning asked to go see the panels that controlled 6

feedwater and they had prints and I looked at them and they 7

seemed to think they were Bailey controllers.

MR.

FERRER:

Okay, the feedwater control valve, 9

which is the LV10 valves A,

B and C are Bailey controllers, 10 which is true.

Now the single inputs to the min flow valves 11 are to the Foxboro racks.

12 MR. VATTER:

Condensate pumps discharge have a

13 min flow valve. That's the FV38 that you are referring to, 14 is that correct?

15 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

16 17 right?

MR. VATTER:

So those also went open, is that 18 19 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

So we had condensate pump min flow 20 valves going open, all of them, full open?

21 22 MR.

FERRER:

Just the pumps that are operating.

MR. VATTER:

Just the pumps that are operating, 23 right?

For condensate pumps that was all 24 25 MR.

FERRER:

Booster pumps?

MR. VATTER:

No, condensate pumps, hotwell pumps.

J I ~

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12 1

MR.

FERRER:

Okay, as far as the condensate
pumps, 2

I do not -- I have not looked at those loops on that.

MR. VATTER: I guess I had the valve numbers 4

wrong, looking at this little print. This is a sketch that I 5

think came from the training lesson plan.

There is the condensate pump and there is a

MR.

FERRER:

There should be only one controller 8

on that one.

MR. VATTER:

Could you look at this print and show 10 us how the condensate pump discharge is recirculated back to ll the condenser?

12 13 FV114.

MR.

FERRER:

Through this valve right here, 14 15 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Now does that valve fail open?

MR.

FERRER:

I have not looked at the loops on 16 that valve.

17 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Tony, do you have any thoughts 18 about that?

19 MR. PETRELLI:

I'm not sure but 'that is the valve 20 that goes back to the condenser.

That I know.

I am not 21 sure if it fails open.

22 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Would that be off of the UPS power, 23 the condensate pump outside of 24 25 MR. PETRELLI:

That I am not sure of either.

MR. VATTER:

Okay, but the condensate booster pump

I

13 1

min flow valves FV38, those all open?

MR.

FERRER:

Just the one?

MR. VATTER:

Right, just the one associated with 4

the operating pumps?

MR.

FERRER:

That's correct, yes.

MR. VATTER:

And there were two pumps operating, 7

the A and the B,

and you think that the A tripped and the C

8 autostarted.

10 Could you explain that autostart logic to us?

MR.

FERRER:

Well, there is a minimum suction 11 pressure within the system and if it goes below that then 12 the pump will auto start.

I can't remember what the name of 13 the pressure is.

14 MR. VATTER:

So if the suction pressure drops 15 down, the standby pump will autostart and if it drops down 16

further, a pump will trip?

17 18 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR.

KOLOD:

Is that the feed pump suction pressure 19 you'e referring to? It starts to boost your feed suction?

20 MR. VATTER:

This feed pump suction pressure will 21 cause the condensate booster pump to autostart.

Okay, that 22 makes sense to me.

23 Is there a way that you could model this event and 24 determine for sure whether these pumps failed in the way 25 that we have postulated -- excuse me, tripped is perhaps a

1 0

14 1

better word than failed, or that maybe there is some other 2

problem associated with the system response to the scram 3

that we haven't identified.

MR.

FERRER:

I don't know if there is any way for 5

modelling it other than running the system.

We are checking 6

the pressure switches that was on each of these pumps.

MR. VATTER:

To make sure that they are calibrated 8

correctly?

10 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

Is there a way to do this on the 11 simulator?

12 MR.

FERRER:

I have no idea.

13 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Do you guys have any questions 14 about this first part of the event?

Feed pump trip?

15 Condensate booster pump trip on autostart?

16 MR. JENSEN:

One thing I would like to clarify.

17 There was a bypass valve around the demineralizer, I 18 believe, that opened during the event and had to be closed 19 later on.

Is that a normal valve that would -- would that 20 valve normally open during a reactor trip or was it because 21 of UPS failure?

22 MR.

FERRER:

Okay, the bypass valve around the 23 demineralizers as well as a bypass valve around the heater

,24 strings will automatically open when you'e at greater than 25 85 percent

power, 100 percent trip, so that is a normal

15 1

the valve will normally go open.

MR. JENSEN:

Okay, thank you.

MR. VATTER:

Does that reset itself in any way?

MR.

FERRER:

To my knowledge, no.

MR. VATTER:

So the operator just has to remember 6

then that there is a bypass flowpath around the 7

demineralizers.

MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

Okay, let's go on in time a little 10 bit and talk about the time when condensate booster pumps 11 were feeding the reactor and then had to be turned off. Are 12 you familiar with now that was done?

13 MR.

FERRER:

I guess in talking with Jim Graff I 14 guess when they breached the Level 8 they retripped all the 15 pumps.

16 17 room?

MR. VATTER:

Turned them off from the control 18 MR.

FERRER:

Turned them off from the control 19 room.

20 MR. VATTER:

That because the pressure in the 21 reactor had gone down below the shutoff head on the booster 22 pumps and they were beginning to feed the reactor?

23 MR.

FERRER:

I don't know what there reason was.

24 I guess I am only speculating that when they had the Level 8

25 that they shut it down.

N h,

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16 MR. VATTER:

Okay, now we understand that it is a

2 routine practice when you secure the condensate booster 3

pumps to shut the suction valves for the main feed pumps.

4 Do I understand that correctly?

MR.

FERRER:

That's correct.

MR. VATTER:

And what is the reason for shutting 7

the feed pump suction valve?

MR.

FERRER:

Normally it's to be done when we 9

initially fillthe system and we have some relief valves on 10 the lines.

MR. VATTER:

Back to the print here.

Is this the 12 one that shows the feed pumps?

I can't recall but there are 13 some relief valves and we have some lines on these relief 14 valves so every time that we started a condensate booster 15 pump with the 84 valves

open, we would get a slug of air and 16 we would rupture the general relief lines.

17 MR. VATTER:

Could that be these valves here?

18 This is the feed pump suction relief? It doesn't have a

19 valve number on it there but that looks like a relief valve 20 in the suction to the 21 MR.

FERRER:

Yes, it is in that line. It very 22 well could be that.

23 MR. VATTER:

is there more than one relief valve 24 in the feed pump section?

25 MR.

FERRER:

I have to look at the print.

I think

1

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17 1

there is only one.

MR. VATTER:

Do you ever have a problem with 3

excessive pressure from the discharge of the feed pump 4

leaking back into the suction and causing that relief valve 5

to lift?

What I am postulating is with the suction valve 7

closed and reactor pressure higher than the relief valve set 8

point, could the wire leak back past the discharge check 9

valve and cause the suction piping to become over-10 pressurized?

MR.

FERRER:

Now if they have the LV10s shut, 12 these can also be used as isolation valves.

13 MR. VATTER:

That's the main feedwater regulating 14 valve?

15 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

You would have to get pressure 16 through there to that valve, and see that check valve, but 17 then you would have to pressurize the entire header all the 18 way up to the booster pump.

19 MR. VATTER:

You also had a motor operated 20 discharge isolation valve.

That's No. 47, is that what that 21 valve is functioning?

22 MR.

FERRER:

Right.

That valve right now only 23 closes to two percent of its C on the controller.

24 25 MR. VATTER:

Won'0 go all the way closed?

MR.

FERRER:

Won'0 go all the way closed.

There

j

~

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4

18 1

are some problems with -- I guess if we close it all the way 2

out, we'd damage them.

There's a different design problem 3

with that valve.

MR. VATTER:

Okay, so that valve cannot 5

effectively isolate pressure?

MR.

FERRER:

That's correct.

MR. VATTER:

So in order to isolate the feedpump 8

discharge, you would have to shut the feedwater regulating 9

valve, LV10?

10 MR.

FERRER:

That's correct.

MR. VATTER:

And you say you are or you are not 12 aware of problems of lifting the feed pump suction valve or 13 suction relief valve due to overpressurization.

14 MR.

FERRER:

From being on the reactor side?

I am 15 not aware of any problems.

16 MR., VATTER:

Okay, so after the condensate'ooster 17 pumps were tripped, they closed the main feed pump suction 18 valves which looks like on this print they'e MOV-84.

19 20 MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR.

VATTER:

Then later the operators wanted to 21 restart a condensate booster pump and to reopen one of'he 22 84 valves.

I guess it wouldn't have mattered too much which 23 one he opened up, would it?

24 MR.

FERRER:

No. They wanted to use what they call 25 the startup valves, which are the LV-55 valves to put water

I

~

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19 1

into the vessel which basically the flow path is through the 2

feed pump, to use I guess the low flow valves and if you 3

open up the A or the B there is no low flow valve in the C-4 line and these are the -- yes, these are the 55 valves right 5

here.

They are only on the A and B feed pumps, so it would 6

have to go through the pump.

MR. VATTER:

So the desire to open up either 84A 8

or 84B.

Did they try both?

MR.

FERRER:

My understanding is they tried A 10 first and then tried to open up B and the valve would not 11 open.

12 13 open?

MR. VATTER:

Can you tell us why they wouldn' 14 MR.

FERRER:

Okay.

The condition of the plant, as 15 I understand, was, they had a condensate pump running, and 16 the valves were open at that time. If they had the 17 condensate pump running, its discharge output is around 18 about

100, 125 pounds.

19 For starting the booster pump, they closed the 84 20

valves, which means on the back side of that valve that 21 pressure was still around 125 pounds.

When they start the 22 booster pump, its discharge pressure is around

685, so 23 you'e going to roughly have a differential of about 500 24 pounds across the valve.

25 What they wanted to do is to --

Normally, in the

20 1

procedure, before opening that valve, they would open up the 2

bypass valves, and the bypass valves.

They have a hydraulic 3

valve, HCV valve, and they have a manual isolation valve, 4

which are inside the heater base.

To open them, you have to 5

go inside the heater base.

MR. VATTER:

That's on the mezzanine level of the 7

turbine building?

MR.

FERRER:

No.

It's in the heater base.

You 9

have to go to the heater

base, which is through the 250 10 elevation, through the locked door.

It's in a high-11 radiation area.

Then you have to go up about, I guess, two 12 flights of stairs.

I think it's 277.

14 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

MR.

FERRER:

The HCV valve controls are local, so 15 they would have to go inside the heater base to open up the 16 bypass valves.

17 MR. VATTER:

Is the valve not designed to operate 18 with differential pressure like that?

19 MR.

FERRER:

The valve has been tested to open up 20 against a differential pressure of that magnitude.

21 MR.

VATTER:

So they should have opened in the 22 event; is that right?

23 MR.

FERRER: If the torque switches were set to 24 that value, yes.

25 MR. VATTER:

So you suspect that the torque

'1,

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21 1

switches are not properly set; is that right?

MR.

FERRER:

I sort of suspect that, but right now 3

we have no way of verifying what the actual torque setting 4

is; we just have a general setting.

We basically just move 5

it to a certain position.

Right now we have WRs written--

6 work requests -- to look at the torque settings, to make 7

sure that they are correct.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Do you have any set-up for 9

doing motor-operated valve -- I guess that's hydraulic-10 operated valve, isn't it?

12 zs 14 MR.

FERRER:

What?

MR. VATTER:

The 84 is a motor-operated MR.

FERRER:

Is a motor-operated valve.

MR. VATTER:

Do you have any provision for doing 15 motor-operated valve diagnostic testing to identify what the 16 appropriate torque switch is?

MOVAT's one of the vendors.

17 MR.

FERRER:

It's my understanding that we do not 18 have that type of diagnostics, to test that particular 19 valve.

20 MR. VATTER:

So, if I understand that right, 21 there's not a lot of confidence that the torque switch is 22 set right, that the torque switch setting that you think is 23 right might not really give you the right thrust cut-out on 24 that valve.

25 MR.

FERRER:

That's correct.

l I

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22 MR. VATTER:

Do you know if there is any plan to 2

resolve that problem?

MR.

FERRER:

I know there's a generic letter out 4

that industry has to address.

MR. VATTER:

And I don't personally whether it 6

would address that valve or not, but, just as far as Niagara 7

Mohawk is concerned, is there any plan to try to fix that 8

problem that you'e aware of?

MR.

FERRER:

I'm not aware of it.

I think the 10 person to talk to would be Joe Kilpatrick.

He works with 11 the maintenance support people, or electrical maintenance, 12 and he's sort of like our MOV expert.

13 14 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

So you consider that to be a maintenance

problem, 15 as opposed to a design problem.

16 17 MR.

FERRER:

Correct.

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

Do you provide input to maintenance 18 on problems like this, to help them figure out what it is 19 they need to do to fix the equipment?

20 MR.

FERRER: If there are certain equipment 21

problems, we do assist the maintenance
people, but as far 22 as the problems associated with setting up,
say, the limit 23 switches and all that, that's more of a component
problem, 24 which maintenance takes care of.

25 MR. VATTER:

How long have you been having that

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23 1

problem with the feed pump suction valves'ticking in the 2

shut position?

MR.

FERRER:

That's about the first time that we 4

had that, because we were not able to open up the bypass 5

valves around the valve to equalize the pressure.

MR. VATTER:

So this is not a previously known 7

problem?

MR.

FERRER:

It's not a previously known problem.

9 These particular valves were just put in there in the last 10 refueling outage, because of the old valve style; there was 11 a design problem with that.

The last valves would not seal 12 properly; we kept getting a lot of leak-by.

This particular 13 valve holds its water quite well.

14 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Let's talk about that relief piping on the feed 16 pump suction valve relief line that you say can break if 17 that relief valve lifts.

How long has that problem been 18 around?

19 MR.

FERRER:

I know we had the problems back two 20 years

back,

'89.

I think we resolved that problem in '89.

21 They repiped it, and also we kept the valves shut when we 22 started the booster pump.

This was because, when we drained 23 the system, we'd get that long slug of water going through 24 there.

25 MR. VATTER:

But that was not the situation on

I

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24 1

last Tuesday.

3 breached.

MR.

FERRER:

That's correct.

That system was not MR. VATTER:

So starting the condensate booster 5

pump should not have caused that relief valve to lift.

MR.

FERRER:

I don't even know if that valve was 7

lifted or not.

MR. VATTER:

Well, probably not, because the 9

suction valve was closed, but if the suction valve was 10 opened and stayed open at that time, do you think that it 11 would have lifted a relief valve?

12 MR.

FERRER:

I guess we'e going to speculate on e

13 this one.

I guess, from my experience, I would say no, 14 because the problems we had of lifting that particular 15 relief valve are because we had air in the system when we 16 first started that pump up.

The system was breached.

17 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Is the procedure for venting 18 the feed condensate system not adequate to get all of the 19 air out when you are starting up the system for maintenance?

20 It seems to me that, when you start a booster

pump, you 21 wouldn't want to have any air in there; you would want to 22 have the system vented before then.

I'm curious why you 23 would have to start it with air in the system.

24 MR.

FERRER:

We addressed all the problems with 25 the venting of the system.

I guess prior to the first

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25 1

refueling we had some problems with the feed pumps.

We 2

added additional drain lines and vent valves in there to 3

actually drain the system.

MR. VATTER:

Was that change effective?

In other 5

words, can you get all the air out now and maybe not need to 6

have the 84 valve closed when you start the condensate 7

booster pump?

What I'm getting at is shutting the feed pump 9

suction valve, the 84 valve -- the practice, based on my 10 experience, is unusual in the industry.

I m trying to 11 understand why you need to do that.

12 MR.

KAUFFMAN: It's necessary

because, in this 13
event, the operators wanted to inject using that path and 14 couldn't get the valves open.

15 MR.

FERRER: It was in the procedure to close the 16 valve prior to starting up a booster pump.

17 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

And normally you'd go bypass it 18 later, right.

19 MR.

FERRER:

But to me the only time you should 20 have to shut a bypass valve is if the system has been 21

drained, and you fillit back up, because we do get that 22 valve lifting because of air.

23 24 procedure.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

So you'e saying this is a 25 MR.

FERRER: It could be a procedure problem.

~

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26 1

Since the system was not breached, I feel that it was not 2

necessary to open up that valve, but it was the way the 3

operator addressed that procedure.

It's really not clear.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

What kind of involvement do you 5

have in the ops procedures, say for feedwater system?

Do 6

you have any involvement with that?

MR.

FERRER:

We have some involvement, especially 8

with modification.

We install modifications; we would 9

address the changes in the procedure with an SRO; we'l go 10 through the changes in the procedure.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Do you think about all the 12 different conditions or modes it might be in and try and 13 come up with procedure

sections, maybe, to address that?

14 Because really the operator's view of this whole 15 situation was that, if there wasn't a really good reason for 16 doing that, it got them into problems, so maybe there should 17 be a procedure for starting the pump with the system 18 breached and with breach.

And that's sort of the conclusion 19 you came to, also.

20 One other question about feedwater:

The operators 21

reported, when they got the level 8 trip, they did not get 22 the amber trip lights that they normally get.

This was 23 early in the event.

Would that be usual or expected with 24 the loss of UPS, or have you not looked into it?

25 MR.

FERRER:

I have not looked into that, but that

I

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27 1

whole circuit is powered by the UPS.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

So it makes sense that you wouldn' 3

get the light.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Let's see.

What other 5

problems were there with feed and condensate?

MR. JENSEN: I'e got a couple while you'e 7

thinking about it.

I'd like to clarify. I understand that you 9

changed feedwater suction valves about last year, or last 10 refueling, and when you put in these valves, was this the 11 first time that you had to go into the turbine building to 12 open the bypass lines, or was this standard practice before, 13 with the previous feedwater suction valves?

14 MR.

FERRER:

I don't understand your question.

15 16 MR. JENSEN:

Okay.

MR.

VATTER:

Try it again, Walt.

I didn' 17 understand it, either.

18 19 MR. JENSEN:

Let me try again.

How long has it been standard practice to go into 20 the turbine building to open up the bypass valves around the 21 feedwater suction valves when they'e closed and the 22 condensate booster pumps are operating?

23 24 has been.

MR.

FERRER:

I don't know how long that practice 25 MR. VATTER:

Were they doing that when you first

28 1

became responsible for that system?

MR.

FERRER:

I can't remember. All I know is that, 3

during the first refueling, when we put those valves in 4

there, that's what they were doing.

MR. JENSEN:

I believe--

MR. VATTER:

Excuse me.

I think we need to take a

7 break right now.

Can we have a time out?

10

[Recess.]

MR. VATTER:

Walt, you had another question.

MR. JENSEN:

Yes.

I have one question.

I heard somewhere that starting the condensate 12 booster pumps without the feedwater suction valves'eing 13 closed had a detrimental effect on the main feedwater pump 14 seals.

Do you know anything about that problem, or a 15 similar problem?

16 MR.

FERRER:

I'm not aware of any problem 17 associated with the valves'eing shut with the feed pump 18 seals.

19 MR. JENSEN:

The valves'eing opened on the 20 feed --

With the valves open and the condensate booster 21 pumps starting, does that have any effect on the main 22 feedwater pump seals?

23 24 25 MR.

FERRER:

To my knowledge, no.

MR. JENSEN:

Okay.

MR. VATTER:

Let me summarize for a minute, if I

E I

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29 1

can, what we learned about feedwater.

We know that there' 2

a problem opening the 84 valves.

The problem is the result 3

of high differential pressure.

The valve is supposed to be 4

able to operate with that kind of differential in pressure, 5

but there is an apparent problem with the torque switches on 6

the motor operator.

Do I understand that correctly?

MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

MR. VATTER:

And the suction relief piping breaks 9

when the relief valve lifts.

10 MR.

FERRER:

For '89, that happened a great deal, 11 a number of times.

During the '89-'90 outage, we revised 12 all that piping, as well as the venting problems in the 13 feedwater system.

14 MR. VATTER:

So that may not be a continuing 15 problem.

16 MR.

FERRER:

That may not be a continuing problem, 17 and we had no problem with that line when we started up the 18 plant this year, as far as those lines'reaking.

19 20 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

The reason that you shut the 84 valve is to 21 prevent that relief valve from lifting, because in the past 22 there has been an experience with air being in the system 23 when the condensate booster pump was starting.

24 MR.

FERRER:

Right.

That's only when we breach 25 the system.

~

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30 MR. VATTER:

So there may not be a need for 2

shutting the 84 valve currently.

MR.

FERRER:

Yes.

We are looking into that right 4

now.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Let's talk a little bit about the cleanup.

Let' 7

see.

We'e got Randy and Chris who have some responsibility 8

for cleanup.

I understand that cleanup isolated during this 10 event.

Is that correct?

MR.

FERRER:

I had no involvement in the 13 so I don' 14 MR. VATTER:

Did anybody investigate cleanup 15 problems during this event?

12 investigation of the cleanup problems during this incident, 16 MR.

FERRER:

I think operations was looking into 17 that, but that's the extent of my knowledge.

I was not 18 brought in to specifically look at the cleanup problems.

19 20 21 22 MR. VATTER:

Do you know what the problems were?

MR.

FERRER:

No, I don'.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Maybe we'e talking to the wrong guy, then.

Do 23 you know of any continuing problems with cleanup?

For 24

example, does it typically have problems in isolating when 25 it shouldn'?

~

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31 MR.

FERRER:

This year we had two isolations, and 2

those isolations were traced back to faulty level elements 3

within the filter demins.

We are investigating that 4

particular problem with the vendor right now.

MR. VATTER:

Faulty level elements in the filter 6

demins.

Could you explain how that causes an isolation?

MR.

FERRER:

If the vessels are not fully vented 8

and they have air in them and we open up the isolate valves 9

and we'e going from -- I guess the pressure within the 10 filter vessel is going to go from about 210 to about

1200, 11 and then we'e going to get a sudden surge of water to that 12 vessel.

It's going to cause a delta flow, cause it to 13 isolate on a delta flow.

14 MR. VATTER:

Does that delta flow not have a time 15 delay on it?

16 MR.

FERRER: It has a time delay of about 45 17

seconds, and it's greater than 150 gpm, but it causes such a

18 flow perturbation within the system that it's sort of 19 difficult to recover.

20 MR. VATTER:

What effort is being made to take 21 care of that, problem?

22 MR.

FERRER:

Right now we are looking at the level 23 element inputs and overriding them through a computer -- I 24 guess through a controller.

25 MR. VATTER:

What's the purpose of the level

~

~

32 1

inputs?

MR.

FERRER:

The level inputs insure that the 3

vessel is full of water.

It has a permissive, so if the 4

vessel is not full of water, it just keeps on fillingit 5

with water.

MR. VATTER:

And by "the vessel,"

you mean the 7

reactor vessel?

MR.

FERRER:

No, the filter demin vessel.

MR. VATTER:

So that should be full of water all 10 the time.

MR.

FERRER:

That should be full of water, but 12 during the backwashes and the precoat the vessel is filled 13 and drained a number of times.

14 MR. VATTER:

So there is really not a need to have 15 those level switches active when the system is operating.

16 MR.

FERRER:

That's correct.

Yes.

It's not even 17 in the program.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

We heard about some water 19 hammer in cleanup.

Does cleanup have a problem with water 20 hammers?

21 22 MR.

FERRER:

I guess Chris can answer that.

MR.

KOLOD:

The only past history of any water 23 hammers were the surges that Randy mentioned due to the 24 vessel being placed on line with an air bubble in the dome 25 of the filter demin vessel after precoat operation, and then

f

33 1

the surge created from that.

As far as what happened during 2

the event last week, from what little information I gather 3

just talking to a couple people this morning before I came 4

over here, it may have been just the differences in 5

temperature when they relined up the system and they got 6

some flashing of steam inside the cleanup system.

MR. VATTER:

Did you hear about a water hammer?

MR.

KOLOD:

That was the extent that I heard of 9

it, yes.

10 MR. VATTER:

Do you know if anybody has walked 11 down the system to find out if there was any damage 12 resulting from that water hammer?

13 MR.

KOLOD:

The operator that I talked to was 14 there at the time, and that's as far as I know.

He saw the 15 water hammer taking place, some vibration in the lines, and 16 the noise and whatever, but after that a follow-up walkdown, 17 I don't know if it has been done.

You'd have to talk to 18

- operations personnel.

19 MR.

FERRER:

There was an engineering walkdown 20 done on the system before it was placed back in service.

21 22 MR.

VATTER:

Since the event.

MR.

FERRER:

Since the event.

And they found no 23 problems.

24 MR. VATTER:

Walt, do you have any questions 25 about cleanup?

I

~

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34 MR. JENSEN:

No, I don't have any about cleanup.

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

Let's talk about RHR.

We understand that really in the recovery stage of 4

the event the operators desired to be able to let down from 5

the reactor to someplace, and the desired method would be to 6

let down through cleanup to the condenser, but cleanup could 7

not be brought back on service.

Do you have any knowledge 8

about problems with cleanup being able to be brought back on 9

service at that time?

10 MR.

KOLOD:

Other than the water hammer taking 11 place is that the same time frame?

12 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

We can find somebody else to 13 talk to us about that.

14 So when the operators were not able to let down to 15 the condenser through cleanup, they elected to let down to 16 rad waste from RHR.

Are you familiar with that?

17 18 I'm sorry.

Wrong guy.

Go ahead, Fred.

MR.

GERARDINE:

My understanding of what was going 19 was that they were trying to establish shutdown cooling.

20 Part of warming the shutdown cooling loop that you'e going 21 to put on, which is either A or B, is to let down to rad 22 waste.

You can also use the RHS MOV-142 valve to control 23 your let-down rate, and it can serve as an alternate form of 24 vessel level control.

25 MR. VATTER:

Why would they want to let down to

JI s

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35 1

rad waste?

MR.

GERARDINE:

Well, you'd need to warm up the 3

RHS piping and the water in the RHS system before you can 4

start the pump.

The water has to be, I believe, greater 5

than 125 degrees before you can start the pump.

There's a

6 differential between the water temperature and the pump 7

temperature that has to be met.

MR. VATTER:

So you let down to rad waste in order 9

to warm up RHR.

10 MR; GERARDINE:

Right.

MR. VATTER:

So it wasn't a vessel level control 12 concern so much as it was your needing to warm up RHR.

13 MR.

GERARDINE:

I believe that's true.

14 MR. VATTER:

Okay.

15 MR. JENSEN:

There was a rather large increase in 16 vessel level, I understand, when RHR was activated.

Have 17 you looked at that?

Do you know the cause?

MR.

GERARDINE:

I'm not familiar with a surge in 19 vessel level at that time.

I just started looking into the 20 whole problem yesterday.

What they were trying to do was to 21 put the B RHS system into shutdown cooling.

They prefer to 22 use B because the let-down valves to the liquid rad waste 23 system are motor-operated; on the A side, they'e manual 24 valves.

When they were in their procedure, they were trying 25 to open the RHS MOV-142 valve, and they weren't successful

I

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36 1

at doing that from the control room.

MR. VATTER:

What kind of a valve is that?

MR.

GERARDINE:

Well, the actuator's a limitor, 4

but I'm not sure what the actual valve--

MR. VATTER:

Is that a stop-check valve?

MR.

GERARDINE:

I believe it's a gate valve.

You have two valves in series at that point that 8

are cross-divisional.

The 142 valve is throttleable.

The 9

next valve in series with that is the 149 valve, which is 10 not throttleable; it's full open.

They'e both reactor 11 coolant isolation boundary valves.

When they get an N quad 12 S isolation signal, they isolate.

13 At the point in the procedure that they were at 14 in the OP, there's a note prior to opening the 142 valve 15 that says that you could expect a water hammer if you open 16 the valve to the full open position.

17 MR. VATTER:

What would be the cause of that water 18 hammer?

19 MR.

GERARDINE:

I would expect that it would be a

20 steam flash, water flashing to steam, at that point, where 21 it enters a cold line.

22 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Is there guidance there to the 23 operator to tell him how far to open the valve or how long 24 to hold the switch?

25 MR.

GERARDINE:

The step says he's supposed to

II b

1,

37 1

open it to the mid-position.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

How long would it take him to do 3

that?

What would he do to get it to the min position?

MR.

GERARDINE:

The mid-position.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Oh, mid.

Okay.

And how would he get it to the mid-position or 7

know it was there?

MR.

GERARDINE:

I'm not familiar with that.

MR.

JENSEN:

About how much water would the t

10 operator let out into the rad waste system in starting up a

ll cold RHR loop?

12 MR.

GERARDINE:

My understanding, according to the 13 OP, is that they let down until they reach a certain 14 temperature, going to a temperature

element, and that the 15 conductivity reaches a certain value -- is less than a

16 certain value, so they can make sure that they'e cleaned up 17 the line; they'e got the temperature to enable a pump 18 start.

19 MR. JENSEN:

So you don't know any specific amount 20 in pounds or gallons.

21 MR.

GERARDINE:

No.

I'm not familiar with how 22 much flow they'e looking at.

23 MR. VATTER:

That 142 valve that you referred to, 24 that's a fairly large valve, isn't it?

This is the RHR 25 lines going into the containment, going into the drywell?

g I

38 1

Is that where that's located?

MR.

GERARDINE:

No.

This valve's located down in 3

the B -- in one of the RHR pump rooms.

I think it's the B

4 pump room, but I'm not sure.

I'm relatively new to the 5

system; I'm learning this as I go.

This valve is on, I believe, a three-inch line, 7

and its sole function is to take the water from the B loop 8

back to rad waste.

10 rad waste.

MR. VATTER:

So the 142 valve is the line going to MR.

GERARDINE:

Right.

With the 149, they'e a

12 series set of valves.

13 MR. VATTER:

What was the original or the 14 beginning configuration of RHR in this event?

15 MR.

GERARDINE: It would have been in standby for 16 LPCI injection, low-pressure coolant injection.

17 18 MR. VATTER:

On the A loop, or Division 1.

MR.

GERARDINE:

Division 1 and Division 2 would 19 have been in standby.

I 20 MR. VATTER:

We understood from the operators that 21 they had the B and the C

RHR pumps tagged out of service.

22 23 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

For some minor electrical MR.

GERARDINE:

Well, there was a scheduled outage 24 for the Division 2, and I believe at some time early in the 25 morning they started the Division 2 outage.

Then, during

~

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the event, they brought the Div 2 side back into operational 2

status.

For them to declare it operable, that would 3

normally mean it would be lined up in the LPCI mode and 4

ready to respond.

Shutdown cooling is a manually-entered mode of the 6

system, and the operators have to intentionally line it up 7

that way.

According to the ops logs, this is what they were 8

trying to do at the time:

establish the B side and shutdown 9

cooling.

10 MR. VATTER:

Now, the 142 valve is supposed to be 11 throttleable 12 MR.

GERARDINE:

Right.

13 MR. VATTER: -- but it doesn't work like that?

14 MR.

GERARDINE:

Well, it does like that.

What 15 happened

was, they tried to open it from the control room, 16 in accordance with their procedures, and it did not respond.

17 They wrote an emergency WR, and the electricians troubleshot 18 the system and found that a contact on the remote shutdown 19 transfer switch that's applicable to that valve.

The 20 contact in the opening circuit -- it's permissive for 21 opening the valve from the control room -- was open, or was 22 dirty -- they say it was a dirty contact -- but they didn' 23 have continuity through the contact.

24 MR. VATTER:

So that caused it to be not possible 25 for them to open it?

~

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40 MR.

GERARDINE:

They couldn't open it from the 2

control room.

MR. VATTER:

Well, I guess that's different from 4

what we heard.

Maybe what we'e heard is wrong:

that they 5

opened it and it went all the way open and caused excessive 6

flow to rad waste.

MR.

GERARDINE:

According to what I'e 'read in the 8

logs, they manually opened the valve.

10 MR. VATTER:

By going locally to the valve?

MR.

GERARDINE:

By going to the valve, manually 11 opened it, and then closed the valve.

I don't know what 12 happened; I was reading the logs and the WR; I haven't had a

13 chance to interview anybody yet to find out what exactly 14 they were doing at the time.

15 MR. VATTER:

Do we need to pursue this any 16 further, with that valve?

17 18 19 MR. JENSEN:

No.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

No.

MR. VATTER:

Did we get water hammer in that 20 system also?

I'm not familiar with what happened there.

21 MR. JENSEN:

Yes.

There was water hammer in that 22 system also, I understand.

Can you tell us the cause of the 23 water hammer?

24 MR.

GERARDINE:

I don't know what the cause of the 25 water hammer is.

The water hammer event seems to coincide

~

~ 4 lt

41 1

with establishing the shutdown cooling.

All I know is that, 2

in accordance with the ops logs, again, engineering walked 3

the affected piping down and found no problems out there.

4 I'm not sure exactly what the affected piping was.

MR.

JENSEN:

Have water hammers been a problem in 6

this particular piece of piping before?

MR.

GERARDINE:

In the let-down line to the liquid 8

rad waste

system, yes, there are warning -- or there are 9
notes, not warnings -- in the procedure, prior to opening 10 the throttle valves for either the A side, that opening the 11 valves too far can cause a water hammer.

12 MR. JENSEN:

But this time the valves were opened 13 locally -- the valve was opened locally?

14 MR.

GERARDINE:

The 142 valve was opened locally.

15 MR. VATTER:

What do we need to ask more?

Do you 16 guys have any other questions?

17 18 19 20 MR. JENSEN:

No, I don'.

MR. VATTER:

On RHR in general.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Yes, one question.

One of you mentioned you were the system engineer 21 for the neutron monitoring system.

22 23 MR.

GERARDINE:

Right.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

We'e been trying to establish--

24 we know the ASRM was out of service, was inop, at the start 25 of the event, and we have been trying to figure out why.

4L]

I J

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42 1

MR.

GERARDINE:

The only thing that I know -- that 2

I heard -- is that, when they were doing the surveillance 3

test to verify the SRMs operable after they confirmed the 4

shutdown, one of them was reading high, and the others were 5

-- it had a different indication than the others.

MR.

KAUFFMAN:

Right.

We'e aware one was reading 7

higher than the other two, but there was also one that 8

nobody told us about, and all we were told was that it was 9

inoperable prior to the event.

10 12 14 us?

MR.

GERARDINE:

I'm not familiar with that.

MR. VATTER:

Any other questions?

[No response.]

MR.

VATTER:

Do you guys have any questions for 15 MR.

KAUFFMAN:

We usually throw out a question, 16 primarily to the operators when we interview them, but the 17 question would be, was there anything that helped during 18 this event, or good things about your system that allowed 19 them to run?

An example would be an operator that goes out 20 and he needs to operate a valve, and there's a pipe wrench 21

there, and he goes, Boy, I'm glad somebody put that there.

22 The opposite of that is, he goes out to the valve and 23 there's no pipe wrench, and he can't open the valve, and he 24

goes, Jeez, somebody out to put a pipe wrench out there.

Is 25 there anything that you guys learned from this event that

~ L

43 1

you said, Boy, it's good that we test that 84 valve so it 2

can open up against that DP, and it was a good thing it did.

3 It didn t happen in this event, but if you think about it, 4

can you think of anything that you do good that really 5

helped the systems in response to this event, or, 6

conversely, anything you wish you would have done 7

differently -- maybe the procedure we identified on maybe 8

not shutting the feedwater suction valves?

MR.

FERRER:

Well, yes, the procedure, I think, 10 needs to be revised.

I don't think it's really necessary to 11

-- you know.

The booster pump~ has been shut

down, and to 12 13 have to close that valve to restart that booster pump, I don't think that's really necessary.

14 MR.

KAUFFMAN: It's really a question of, have you l

15 learned anything important out of this event so far?

16 MR.

FERRER:

We ought to have looked at the 17 procedure a little bit more when we revised it.

18 MR. VATTER:

Anything we ought to know about the 19 event that you have some knowledge of that we need to talk 20 about?

21 22 23

[No response.)

MR. VATTER:

Okay.

I guess we'e done.

[Whereupon, at 4:38 p.m., the taking of the 24 interview was concluded.]

25

il

REPORTER' CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceed-ings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

NAME OP PROCEEDING: Int. of CHRIS

KOLOD, IRINEO -FRRRER," FRED 'ERARDINE, & ANTHONY PETRELLI PLACE OP PROCEEDING: Sciiha, N.Y.

were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and thereaf ter reduced to typewr iting by me or under the direction of the court report-ing company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.

IAN ROTEROCK Official Reporter Ann Riley

& Associates, Ltd.

jP EV lE Wf, If

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