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{{#Wiki_filter:Official Transcript of Proceedings  
{{#Wiki_filter:Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION


NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION  
==Title:==
10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Palisades Nuclear Plant Docket Number: (n/a)
Location:            (telephone conference)
Date:          Thursday, March 31, 2011 Work Order No.:      NRC-823                          Pages 1-33 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
 
1 1                  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2                      +      +    +    +      +
3                NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4                      +      +    +    +      +
5                NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 6                      +      +    +    +      +
7                    PETITION REVIEW BOARD 8                DISCUSSION WITH PETITIONER 9 ---------------------------
10 In the Matter of:                  :
11 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION              :
12 OF MICHAEL MULLIGAN                :
13 WITH RESPECT TO                    :
14 PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT            :
15 ---------------------------
16                              Thursday, March 31, 2011 17 18                The above-entitled conference convened via 19 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m.
20 Eastern Daylight Time.
21 BEFORE:
22  THEODORE QUAY, Petition Review Board Chairman 23  MAHESH CHAWLA, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition 24  TANYA MENSAH, Petition Coordinator 25  ANDREA RUSSELL, NRR/Division of Policy and Rulemaking 26                            NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 NRC STAFF PRESENT:
2            STEVEN GARRY, NRR/Health Physics and Human 3                Performance Branch 4            VIJAY GOEL, NRR/EEEB 5            MATTHEW HAMM, NRR/Technical Specifications 6                Branch 7            JAY WALLACE, NRR/DCI/Piping and NDE Branch 8
9 ALSO PRESENT:
10              TERRY DAVIS, Entergy Nuclear/Palisades 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1                      P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2                                                        (9:00 a.m.)
3                  MR. CHAWLA:      I would like to thank 4 everybody for attending this meeting.                My name is Mac 5 Chawla.
6                  Did somebody join here?
7                  MR. GOEL:      Yes. This is Vijay Goel.
8                  MR. CHAWLA:      Oh, hi, Vijay.
9                  MR. GOEL:      Hi.
10                  MR. CHAWLA:      Oh, we just started.        Okay.
11                  MR. GOEL:      Okay.
12                  MR. CHAWLA:      I would like to thank 13 everybody for attending this meeting.                My name is Mac 14 Chawla.        And I am the Palisades Nuclear Plant Project 15 Manager.
16                  We are here today to allow the petitioner, 17 Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 18 regarding the 2.206 petition dated February 22, 2011.
19 I am the Petition Manager for the petition.                  The 20 Petition Review Board Chairman is Ted Quay.
21                  As far as the Petition Review Board's, or 22 PRB's, review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 23 requested this opportunity to address the PRB.                    This 24 meeting is scheduled from 9:00 to 10:00 a.m. Eastern 25 Daylight Time.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433          WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701      www.nealrgross.com
 
4 1                  The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 2 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 3 reporter.        The transcript will become a supplement to 4 the petition.        The transcript will also be made 5 publicly available.
6                  I would like to open this meeting with 7 introductions.        As you go around the room, please be 8 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 9 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 10 record.
11                  I will start off.          Again, my name is Mac 12 Chawla.        I am the Petition Manager.            We go around the 13 room here.
14                  MS. MENSAH:      Tanya Mensah, 2.206 15 Coordinator, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
16                  MR. HAMM:      Matthew Hamm, reactor systems 17 engineer, the Technical Specifications Branch in NRR.
18                  MR. GARRY:      Steve Garry, senior health 19 physicist, Office of NRR.
20                  CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Ted Quay, Petition Review 21 Board Chairman, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
22                  MS. RUSSELL:        Andrea Russell, Division of 23 Policy and Rulemaking, Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
24                  MR. WALLACE:        Jay Wallace, materials 25 engineer, NRR, Piping and NDE Branch.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1                MR. CHAWLA:        This is all the folks at 2 headquarters. And we have Mr. Vijay Goel.            He's on 3 the phone.
4                MR. GOEL:      Right.      That's Vijay Goel from 5 Electrical Branch, NRR.
6                MR. CHAWLA:        Okay.      At this time are there 7 -- there are no other participants on the phone from 8 headquarters, right?
9                (No response.)
10                MR. CHAWLA:        Hearing none, are there any 11 participants from the regional office on the phone?
12                (No response.)
13                MR. CHAWLA:        Okay.      Not hearing anybody 14 here, it looks like there is no one from the region 15 here.
16                Are  there      any    representatives      for        the 17 licensee 18 on the phone?
19                MR. DAVIS:      Yes.      My name is Terry Davis.
20 I work in Nuclear Safety Assurance Licensing.                I'm a 21 senior tech specialist.
22                MR. CHAWLA:        Okay.      Hi, Terry.
23                MR. DAVIS:      Hi, Mac.
24                MR. CHAWLA:        Mr. Mulligan, would you 25 please introduce yourself for the record now?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1                  MR. MULLIGAN:        I'm Mike Mulligan.          And I 2 am a whistle-blower.          I worked in the industry.              I was 3 on submarines.      And I worked in the industry for a 4 number of years.        And I whistle-blowed on a certain 5 amount of other issues.
6                  Thank you.
7                  MR. CHAWLA:      Okay.      Thank you.
8                  It is not required for members of the 9 public to introduce themselves for this call.
10 However, if there are any members of the public on the 11 phone that wish to do so at this time, please state 12 your name for the record.
13                  (No response.)
14                  MR. CHAWLA:      Hearing none, I would say 15 there is no members of the public.
16                  I would like to emphasize that we each 17 need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 18 Court Reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
19 If you do have something that you would like to say, 20 please first state your name for the record.
21                  For those dialing into the meeting, please 22 remember to mute your phones to minimize any 23 background noise or distractions.                  If you do not have 24 a MUTE button, this can be done by pressing the keys 25 *6.      To unmute, press the *6 keys again.              Thank you.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Title:  10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE    Palisades Nuclear Plant
7 1                At this time I will turn it over to the 2 PRB Chairman, Ted Quay.
3                CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Good morning.      Welcome to 4 this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by 5 Mr. Mulligan. I would like to first share some 6 background on our process.
7                Section 2.206 of Title X of the Code of 8 Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 9 the primary mechanism for the public to request 10 enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
11                This process permits anyone to petition 12 the NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 13 licensees or licensed activities.                Depending on the 14 results of its evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 15 or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 16 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
17 The NRC staff guidance on the disposition of 2.206 18 petition requests is in management directive, 8.11, 19 which is publicly available.
20                The purpose of today's meeting is to give 21 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 22 additional explanation or support for the petition 23 before the Petition Review Board's initial 24 consideration and recommendation.
25                This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Docket Number: (n/a)  
8 1 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 2 examine the Petition Review Board on the merits or the 3 issues presented in the petition request.                    No decision 4 regarding the merits of the petition will be made at 5 this meeting.
6                    Following this meeting, the Petition 7 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
8 The outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 9 with the petitioner.
10                    The Petition Review Board typically 11 consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 12 Senior Executive Service level at the NRC.                    It has a 13 petition manager and a Petition Review Board 14 coordinator.        Other members of the Board are 15 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 16 the information in the petition request.
17                    At this time I would like to introduce the 18 Board.        I am Ted Quay, the Petition Review Board 19 Chairman.        Mac Chawla is the Petition Manager for the 20 petition under discussion today.                    Andrea Russell is 21 the 2.206 Coordinator.            Our technical staff includes 22 Vijay Goel, electrical engineer from the Office of 23 Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Electrical Engineering 24 Branch; Jay Wallace, materials engineer from the 25 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Piping and NDE NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Location:  (telephone conference)  
9 1 Branch; Matt Hamm, reactor systems engineer from the 2 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Technical 3 Specification Branch; and Steven Garry, senior health 4 physicist from the Office of Nuclear Reactor 5 Regulation's Health Physics and Human Performance 6 Branch.
7                  As described in our process, the NRC staff 8 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 9 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach 10 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 11 petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 12 process.
13                  I would like to summarize the scope of the 14 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 15 date.        On February 22nd, 2011, Mr. Michael Mulligan 16 submitted to the NRC a petition under the 2.206 17 process regarding Palisades Nuclear Plant located in 18 Van Buren County, Michigan.
19                  In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan 20 identified the following areas of concern.            Mr.
21 Mulligan stated that the reactor oversight program is 22 ineffective and Entergy has a documented history of a 23 culture of falsification and thumbing their noses at 24 reoccurring violations.
25                  In his petition, Mr. Mulligan requested NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Date:   Thursday, March 31, 2011  
10 1 the following actions:           one, immediate shutdown of 2 Palisades and other Entergy nuclear power plants; two, 3 replacement of top Palisades management staff; three, 4 replacement of Entergy corporate nuclear staff; four, 5 assignment of two additional NRC inspectors at 6 Palisades; five, formation of a local public oversight 7 panel around every plant; six, formation of an 8 emergency NRC senior official oversight panel; seven, 9 formation of a national NRC oversight public panel; 10 eight, analysis of Entergy's reoccurring problems; 11 and, nine, evaluation of NRC Region III resources.
12                  As the basis for this request, Mr.
13 Mulligan cited various plant events/issues, which can 14 be divided into the following categories:            one, 15 equipment failures; two, documentation/design basis 16 concerns; three, radiation protection; four, records 17 falsification; and, five, reactor oversight process.
18                  Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 19 date.        On February 4th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan requested 20 an opportunity to address the Petition Review Board by 21 phone.
22                  On March 2nd, 2011, Mr. Mulligan made an 23 additional request to speak to an NRC official 24 regarding the general state of conditions at Palisades 25 prior to addressing the PRB.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Work Order No.: NRC-823 Pages 1-33
11 1                  On March 3rd, 2011, the PRB met to discuss 2 the request for immediate action only.                  The PRB denied 3 the request for immediate action because there were no 4 immediate      safety  concerns      to    the  plant  or    to      the 5 public health and safety of the public.
6                  On March 4th, 2011, the Petition Review 7 Board's decision was conveyed to Mr. Mulligan.                     Mr.
8 Mulligan was also informed that the request to speak 9 to an NRC official was outside the 2.206 process and 10 he would have the opportunity during the phone call 11 with the PRB to address his concerns and provide 12 additional information.
13                  On March 7th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan addressed 14 the PRB.      And that is documented in ADAMS session 15 number ML110760687.
16                  On March 21st, 2011, the PRB met 17 internally and made an initial recommendation that the 18 petition did not meet the criteria for review because 19 the petitioner failed to provide sufficient facts to 20 warrant further inquiry beyond what was already 21 inspected and documented in NRC inspection reports.
22                  On March 24th, 2011, the petitioner was 23 informed by the PRB of the PRB's initial 24 recommendation and requested an additional opportunity 25 to address the PRB to provide additional information NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
12 1 in support of his petition request.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
2                As a reminder for the phone participants, 3 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 4 this will help in the preparation of the meeting 5 transcript that will be made publicly available.
6 Thank you.
7                And at this point, Mr. Mulligan, I will 8 turn it over to you.
9                MR. MULLIGAN:        Mr. Quay, when you retire, 10 you know, you could always join our side.
11                CHAIRMAN QUAY:        I sure could.
12                MR. MULLIGAN:        You know, a lot of what is 13 going on here is, you know, you know, through Congress 14 and all that sort of stuff, the agency, Entergy, and 15 the industry has gotten into this hyper promotional 16 stance where all you guys, you think you're a used car 17 salesman and you're basically throwing out, you know, 18 just positive information, the kind of information 19 that is promotional that just reflects under the parts 20 of the car and stuff like that.
21                And your real job considering our sacred 22 duties is to explain to us what is really going on 23 behind the scenes and explain this and that and you 24 give us an accurate picture and stuff like that.                You 25 know, the public should be involved.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 1                    But what you are really doing is you are 2 talking to yourselves.            When you're talking to the 3 public, you're really talking to yourselves.                      You're 4 kind of adding on.          You have another party you're 5 bringing this talk in.            You have another party you're 6 bringing that's listening to what you're saying.                          And 7 you're more or less talking to yourselves.                    And I 8 think that is more important.
9                    And you are being honest.            You are talking 10 in the communication that's honest.                    This is a 11 positive.        This is our negatives.
12                    And, you know, like for the last weekend 13 and stuff, we've been seeing a lot of pretty pictures 14 with a lot of different plants, promotional types of 15 stuff.        And they are pretty pictures.
16                    And you would be well the whole industry 17 would be well, to -- I can give you some ugly 18 pictures.        And that would be H. B. Robinson and Wolf 19 Creek Plant.        The H. B. Robinson Plant was just an 20 assortment of different things.                    A cable failed.        And 21 then they uncovered a whole bunch of other events --
22 I mean, other equipment people, procedures, a plant 23 simulation, computer simulation, and stuff like that.
24                    You weren't smart enough to figure out 25 what needed to be corrected, and then you had another NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 event and stuff like that.                Really, the failure isn't 2 really the H. B. Robinson Plant.                    It's NRC for not 3 being able to protect our nation and to protect 4 ourselves from these types of accidents.
5                    These things are all around us, we feel.
6 There are a lot of good plants.                    There's a lot of 7 plants that are in trouble.                And they're spinning in 8 a bad direction.          And the NRC doesn't -- the real 9 reactor oversight process doesn't create that 10 incentive to change behavior.                They go according to 11 the procedures.
12                    But who is to say the procedures are right 13 or the policies are right?                Something has got to be 14 higher than that.          You know, there's got to be a sense 15 of doing good.
16                    And so we -- you know, this promotional 17 business with the industry is a fanaticism.                    It's a 18 diction.          And in these times, you have a paradigm 19 change.        And promotionalism can really end up heading 20 south. People will end up seeing the game.                      And we'll 21 lose even more confidence on what is going on in the 22 industry.
23                    We don't see -- most of my engineer 24 friends that are out there, you know, they got it 25 wrong.        They talk about battery chargers and batteries NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 and seismic calculations and all that stuff.                    Well, 2 they're going at it backwards and stuff like that.
3                    Well, we as a nation have seen as 4 organizations fail, they give signals of that for 5 years.        When that accident happens, like the Gulf, you 6 find out afterwards that, you know, what wasn't 7 disclosed was sickening.              You know, before the 8 accident, what they knew and what they knew they 9 didn't know.        And stuff was sickening, absolutely 10 disgustingly sickening, what they knew about what was 11 going on, and stuff like that.
12                    So components don't fail.          Battery 13 chargers don't fail.            Relays don't fail.      It's people.
14 The organizations fail.              And to a host of reasons, 15 through incentives, to talk one way, to think one way, 16 or disincentive, intimidation systems, subtle and 17 promotional and outright illegal distribution, those 18 are things that frame how people talk and stuff.
19                    What facilitates and accommodates that is 20 barriers.        You don't do things when the world can see 21 you.        You only do those kinds of things when you are 22 hidden behind barriers.              And people can't see it.            And 23 the vet work is going on behind the scenes and stuff 24 like that.
25                    They tell me with this power-safe NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 1 business, I ain't got proof.                Well, you know, I could 2 say certainty, certainty, gaming.                    You know, I choose 3 to display this.        I choose not to display that.                  I 4 choose to display this certainty, and I choose to hide 5 this uncertainty and the whole thing there.
6                  You end up creating a picture that is 7 inaccurate when you do it for self-interest, 8 self-interested reasons and stuff.                    There has got to 9 be something bigger there, why we do things, bigger 10 than self-interest.
11                  You know, we belong to a great nation.
12 And I think we don't think a lot of times that we --
13 we served a great nation.              When we served a great 14 nation, we serve ourselves the best.
15                  They had the business with this QA 16 business stuff.        You've got managers that --
17 essentially managers in Palisades lied about 18 credentials, managers' credentials, and stuff like 19 that.        The new stuff that's coming out they've just 20 been coming out as well.
21                  You know, this really wasn't illegal.
22 Lying about credentials and stuff really wasn't 23 illegal because it was just in Entergy's procedures.
24 And the agency is powerless to make a stand on that, 25 these kind of falsifications and stuff.                    They're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 powerless because, you know, we've got to follow 2 procedures and our rules.
3                    And there's really nothing in there that 4 says this is illegal.            And so, you know, what you're 5 doing I think is you're trying to get through this 6 tech spec business.            You're going to add 7 qualifications, requirements to tech specs.                    And so 8 that will get you.
9                    You know, I find it amazing that you can't 10 get a plant -- you can't have the power to prevent 11 falsification and stuff.
12                    You know, the QA/QC business, you 13 basically said, you know, it's a high management type 14 of inspection.        And you say you find a lot of stuff.
15 You didn't find a lot of -- you know, most of it was 16 construction-related.            And it pays to what it's really 17 about.        And then you tell us that we haven't inspected 18 plants at the plant level.                There just hasn't been 19 inspections with this QA/QC business.
20                    I might make a case.            You got the safety 21 release at Vermont Yankee, that questions QC/QA.
22 You've got Holtech issues with Entergy not being 23 able to maintain their quality of standards and stuff 24 like that.        So, you know, you have to kind of -- this 25 thing is -- it sounds to me like it's a lot bigger NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 1 than construction-related activities.
2                  And, as I talked about, you know, the NRC 3 has a habit if they know something is going on, they 4 ding them on the little stuff and then at Palisades or 5 Entergy or a number of these plants, they go behind 6 the scenes.        And they correct all the stuff the public 7 can't see, can't see what's going on.                  And we get a 8 falsification of really what's going on there.
9                  And so Entergy will come back later on and 10 say, "Well, we -- you know, at the plant level, we did 11 our own -- we caught our own thing.                  And we finally 12 figured out what is wrong with QA/QC.                  And we take 13 credit for it."        And that is wrong.
14                  That whole thing is a falsification.                  You 15 are creating a false image.              And if you've got two 16 QA/QC problems, you should hunt that thing to the end 17 immediately and fix it and stuff like that.
18                  So like right now, you live in uncertainty 19 as far as what is the QA status of a lot of these 20 plants.        And, really, if you don't -- you know, that's 21 what I'm talking about with certainty uncertainty.
22 You live in a -- there is uncertainty there.                    And if 23 you don't got the proof that the plant is safe, you 24 know, you should shut it down.
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19 1 doesn't do the inspections.                And they don't give me 2 the access to the plant and stuff.
3                    And we talked about that.          What was that 4 battery charger?          You know, remember, I said battery 5 capacity and stuff is really not the issue here.                        You 6 know, that DD206, the battery charger, the relays and 7 battery charger, like the plant should have.                    I mean, 8 they should have followed their procedures, gotten 9 into a -- I don't know what it was -- a shutdown or 10 something, notified the NRC.                And they didn't, I mean.
11                    And there is really no punishment to that 12 as far as I see.          Everybody plays in papier-mache.                  I 13 talked about papier-mache safety systems.                  And 14 papier-mache, you don't just file the paperwork and 15 nobody gives a shit because all you're throwing at 16 them is paperwork.          And you don't make consequences.
17                    How you see a tragic event, the Gulf of 18 Mexico or Davis-Besse, what happened is -- this is a 19 model.        I'm trying to build a model here.          People 20 corrupt language.          You can see this corruption of 21 language a million miles away.                  You can see it years 22 before the accident.
23                    And you corrupt language.          You corrupt 24 communications in little ways.                  And everybody gets 25 away with it.        And the next thing, you create this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1 model thinking and stuff.            And that's what leads to 2 all our problems in the nuclear industry.
3                  I can remember I am trying to explain a 4 model here.      And this is a good one.              I'm up in 5 Vermont Yankee.      And I'm up in training.              And I've 6 been stripped from my shift.              You know they're going 7 to get me.      And they're getting ready to take my 8 license from me.        I knew it was happening.            I was 9 terrified.      But I had to go through it.
10                  And the year prior to that, I was having 11 -- I mean, it was unbelievable the stuff that was 12 going on.      I had written a little -- I had to trust 13 the NRC.      I wrote a letter to the governor.              She kind 14 of balked.      I got her in trouble.              And the next thing 15 you know, we had them starting a huge investigation.
16                  The investigation was over intermittent 17 short of the fuel pool pump and stuff.                  I just 18 couldn't take it anymore.            And the procedure said, 19 "Precaution."      The procedure said if that pump wasn't 20 operational in a month, you are required to shut down.
21                  And you create those penalties there.                    If 22 it's not there, if they don't have that pump, if they 23 don't have a spare pump, you've got create a 24 punishment.      You just can't keep facilitating this, 25 saying, "We've got a zillion backup systems.                    Nothing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 1 ever matters."      You create a punishment there.
2                  You shut them down.            And then everybody 3 says, "Oh, no.      Vermont Yankee got shut down" or 4 somebody else "got shut down."                And then everybody 5 starts behaving and you don't have all the 6 paper-mache systems and stuff like that.
7                  So you know what Vermont Yankee was doing?
8 You know, you had to have two pumps or be shut down in 9 a month.      They didn't have a repair motor.            And they 10 had to make that repair motor.                They had to build that 11 motor from scratch, safety-grade motor from scratch.
12                  They initially tagged the breaker and the 13 switch because they didn't want anybody using that 14 motor and stuff.        And we knew that.            You know, I knew 15 that and stuff.      And a month goes by.            And nobody says 16 anything.      A few months go by.          And NRC has an issue 17 with it, with the tag on the breaker, on the switch.
18 And then they talk about it.              And the NRC gets them to 19 put a precaution tag on there and stuff like that.
20                  So, you know, then people start saying, 21 "Well, what do you base that on?                  What engineering do 22 you base that on?"        Me?    You've got to have proof.                At 23 least that shows up.          You've got to have proof.              You 24 know, that's what we live and breathe by and stuff.
25 And so they didn't have it and stuff like that.
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22 1                  And so months go by and stuff.            And I'm 2 getting fed up with all this stuff.                  They didn't have 3 -- you know, they had to get repaired.                  They had to 4 build a new motor.          It took a long time and stuff like 5 that.        And they weren't dealing with that requirement 6 of being shut down in 30 days and stuff.
7                  So we're at a month and stuff.            And I'm 8 getting sick and tired of it.                And I knew the NRC was 9 powerless.        And I was trying to play the NRC against 10 the state.        And so I wrote a letter to the governor.
11 And I got her in a -- she kind of sat on it.                    And I 12 got her into trouble.            And the investigation ensued.
13                  You know, on that investigation with 14 Vermont, we had the memorandum of understanding.                        In 15 other words, the state couldn't go where they pleased 16 in the plant to look at the documents that they needed 17 and stuff like that.            Vermont Yankee would prevent 18 them from doing it.          And through all of this 19 networking, we got a memorandum of understanding.
20                  We had troubles with the emergency diesel 21 generators everybody here is aware at Calvert Cliffs 22 business recently with leaking roofs.                  Well, we had 23 leaking roofs above the diesel generators for years 24 and came in with big puddles.
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23 1 lost power sense and stuff.                And so I made a deal 2 that, you know, before I left there, I was going to 3 fix that because I know my time was coming to an end 4 and stuff.
5                    So, you know, we had rainstorms and more 6 puddles and water leaking down on the outlet breaker 7 and the panels.        You know it was ugly and stuff.
8                    And it took me a number of, six, months.
9 The outcome and all that business was to -- was the 10 roofs were coming into age, into time, you know, and 11 stuff.        And they had to replace all the roofs.                I 12 mean, that's what it was all about, took us six months 13 to figure it out and stuff.
14                    So, again, the people are dead.              The 15 brains are dead more or less.                They've been turned on 16 for some reason.          People's minds are turned off for a 17 number of different incentives and stuff like that.
18                    We talked.      I told her.        I told the 19 governor.        I says, "You're going to have a lot of --
20 you're going to have a simple plant trip.                    It's going 21 to turn into being really ugly.                    And you're going to 22 have a lot of equipment.              And we're going to get 23 confused."        I mean, that's what we're facing and stuff 24 like that.
25                    I'm here to tell you that you can see NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 1 these things a year, two years away.                    Everybody plays 2 games.        The NRC plays certainty certainty games.                    I'm 3 here to tell you.          I'm here to testify you can see 4 these years ahead of time.                They usually revolve 5 around budget issues.
6                    Budgets are so difficult to -- you know, 7 restrictions or reductions or new needs show up and 8 you don't get the money and stuff.                    Those are so 9 difficult to manage on these big organizations.                          You 10 know, they typically come back to, say, a five percent 11 reduction and stuff.            And who gives -- you know, they 12 don't care what that does to the people's minds.                          And 13 not very many people get it right and stuff.
14                    So I'm sitting up there in training.                    And 15 I know it's bleak.          And, all of a sudden, I get a call 16 from the plant.        And they tell me, "Mike, would you 17 work some overtime?"
18                    And so I says, "Sure.              What's going on?"
19 They didn't really want me at the plant at that point.
20 It was in such a bleak condition.
21                    And they said, "We had an accident.                  And 22 we need you down here."
23                    So I came down here.            And what happened 24 was they had a loss of off-site power in 1992 and 25 stuff.        What they were doing was they were changing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 1 the batteries out in the switch gear -- the shift yard 2 and taking shortcuts, you know.                    They got away with 3 shortcuts for years and stuff like that.
4                    And shortcuts are difficult stuff because 5 they give so much positive incentives when you take 6 them.        And it's once every 50 times that you do it 7 that you really pay the price.
8                    And so they were replacing batteries.
9 They replaced one battery.                They had two independent 10 sides.        They had one battery out.              They had the two 11 sides connected on one charger and one battery.                          And 12 the charger that was -- the remaining charger, can you 13 believe that?        Two safety sides connected together, 14 safety sides of all the electronics out in the 15 switchyard and stuff.            And it had two batteries and 16 one charger, and the charger was defective.                      They had 17 diodes out.        It was half broken, you know, and stuff.
18                    I believe when they opened the breaker, 19 when they closed the breaker connecting two batteries 20 together and stuff, they had a big voltage surge and 21 knocked out a bunch of components at Vermont Yankee in 22 the switchyard.        And that's how we got our loss of 23 off-site power.
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26 1 time for the crane to come so that we could backfeed 2 the plant from the shift yard.              It was 12 hours 3 without any electricity at, outside electricity at, 4 Vermont Yankee.
5                The employees told me.              They said it was 6 like a movie.    "We thought we was in a movie when this 7 was happening."
8                The diesel generators had flow problems.
9 We had flow problems with water.                The design accident 10 for the diesel generators is one diesel generator 11 fails, the other diesel generator still works.                    And so 12 the assumption is there is only one diesel generator 13 working.
14                So the design assumption the engineers, 15 the cheapskate engineers, you know, they say, "Well, 16 why do we have to build two diesel generators?                    It's 17 supposed to be independent."
18                So the design engineers said, "We're going 19 to just -- we only need one discharge.                We can route 20 the two service water discharges for the diesel 21 generators into one pipe.          And that's good enough 22 because, you know, we're only going to have one diesel 23 generator when it ends" and stuff.
24                So then they had a valve at the end of 25 this one discharge line, service water discharge line.
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27 1 And we had radiation detector problems.                  It wasn't 2 getting enough service water.                The NRC was getting on 3 our case all the time.
4                  We were losing the service water.              It 5 wasn't getting enough pressure.                  And the service water 6 rad monitor was going inop and stuff.                  And the NRC 7 drives the -- finally had enough.
8                  So we had one operator say, "Well, I know 9 what I'll do.        That one isolation, that one manual 10 valve that connects the two diesel generators, well, 11 we'll throttle it down.            And we'll get the -- we'll 12 bring the pressure up" and stuff like that.                    So that's 13 what he did.        He said, "The problem is with the 14 service water rad monitor."
15                  Of course, when the diesel generators --
16 when the two diesel generators start and stuff like 17 that and you have that excess service water load, it 18 was throttled.        And it drove during the loss of 19 off-site.        It drove the plant, the discharge pressure, 20 high.        And it pegged up the meters, the flow meters, 21 of the service water flow to the diesel generators.
22                  So, you know, for a couple of minutes 23 there, it looked pretty God damn bleak in the control 24 room.        I wasn't there, but I had buddies that told me 25 about it.        You know, they were in half light.              And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 1 diesel generators had started up.                They had trouble 2 with RCIC.
3                And, for a couple of minutes, they didn't 4 know what the hell was wrong with the diesel 5 generators other than they didn't have -- they thought 6 service water pressure was pegged high.                And the flows 7 were -- I don't know.        I think they were low or high.
8                And it took two or three minutes for 9 everybody to figure -- you know, looking at the RTDs, 10 RTEs, whatever they're called, you know, that they 11 weren't going high before we figured out that, oh, 12 they've got enough service water flow.                We didn't 13 know, you know, how much service water flows, how much 14 or anything like that.
15                But those two minutes, everybody realized 16 that how close they were, you know, because what was 17 -- you know, if they ever -- they got a couple of high 18 alarms on the motor but not high enough to threaten 19 the operation of it and stuff like that, which you 20 couldn't see what the flow was.                And, you know, as 21 operators, we could imagine how close we were to --
22 without having any diesel generators, we were damn 23 close.
24                You know, they, the NRC and the industry, 25 they played around because they knew I was talking to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1 outsiders, the media, and all that sort of stuff.
2                    Politicians hate me because I drive them 3 into being involved with a plant like Vermont Yankee.
4 They want to be stupid and outside and stuff.
5                    During those, you know, two critical 6 minutes, two or three critical minutes, five minutes, 7 where nobody knew they had enough diesel generator 8 flow, they heard this -- they heard these humongous 9 booms in the control room and stuff.
10                    Nobody could -- you know, that's at the 11 part where right at the beginning of an accident, 12 where you don't know what's going on and you hear this 13 repetitive boom, boom, boom.                They finally figured out 14 it was coming from the main condenser area.
15                    And they had guys go down there.            And they 16 are looking around trying to figure out what was the 17 noise.        I think it was leaking main feedwater check 18 valves that was causing this.                And then that water was 19 building up.        Probably the feedwater feeders were 20 filled with hot water.            And I don't -- some check 21 valve somewhere was making all this noise.
22                    And the operator said he never -- he 23 couldn't believe it.            They bled the feedwater system.
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30 1 area.        He says he has -- the noise was so loud, and it 2 was hurting his ears, never seen anything like it.                            He 3 said he -- the noise was hurting his chest it was so 4 loud and stuff.
5                    And so, I mean, that's my story of how I 6 -- I mean, I had those feelings when I was -- when 7 this whole thing started.              I says, "You know, if it 8 goes south, how can I live with myself?                    If the plant 9 has a big problem and stuff and I've always" -- and 10 that has never left me.              You know, what happens if I 11 have special knowledge and something goes wrong at 12 Vermont Yankee or it goes -- I have special knowledge 13 or if I have -- something goes wrong with the NRC or 14 another plant.        And can I live with myself if we have 15 a Fukushima or a single plant or something?                      Can I 16 live with myself if it happens?                    And I don't think I 17 could.        I never could, you know.
18                    I destroyed my career.              It's left residual 19 issues, emotional issues, with me.                    I've damaged my 20 children as far as not -- you know, I don't have the 21 credentials anymore and all that sort of stuff.
22                    You know, I did that knowing that, you 23 know, down deep I said to myself, if something bad 24 happens, can I live with myself?                    Well, I'm an idiot, 25 you know.        If an event happens and stuff, will I blame NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 1 myself?        And I think I will.
2                  And, you know, it's a choice who you hurt.
3 You hurt your family or you hurt, you know, a lot of 4 other people.        So that's my story.              As far as how 5 organizations, go numb for some reason, 6 multi-organizations.
7                  The employee, the utility, a plant, a 8 Palisades miscommunication, you know, this inaccurate, 9 distorted communication, everybody gets the wrong 10 impression.        Nobody is talking honestly anymore and 11 painfully and stuff, the agency and stuff.
12                  You know, we have all seen it across the 13 nation where it's not really the components that fail, 14 although they do.          It's the people.            It's the people 15 and the little things they do that cause these things 16 and stuff.        Don't deal with our problems, the 17 incentives, disincentives, and stuff.
18                  So that's my story as far as how a plant 19 can go really bad.          And I thank you for this 20 opportunity to speak with you.                Thank you.
21                  CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Okay.      At this time does 22 the staff here at headquarters have any questions for 23 Mr. Mulligan?
24                  (No response.)
25                  CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Mr. Goel, you are on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1 line.        Do you have any questions?
2                  MR. GOEL:      No. This is Vijay Goel.            I 3 have no questions.
4                  CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Okay.      Does the licensee 5 have any questions?
6                  MR. DAVIS:      No. This is Terry Davis.              I 7 have no questions.
8                  CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Okay.      Thank you.
9                  Before I conclude the meeting, members of 10 the public may provide comments regarding the petition 11 and may ask questions about the 2.206 petition 12 process.        However, as stated at the opening, the 13 purpose of this meeting is not to provide an 14 opportunity for the petitioner or the public to 15 question or examine the Petition Review Board 16 regarding the merits of the petition request.
17                  Has any member of the public joined the 18 phone call that wants to make a comment?
19                  (No response.)
20                  CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Hearing none, Mr.
21 Mulligan, thank you for taking time to provide the NRC 22 staff with clarifying information on the petition you 23 have submitted.
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33 1 transcript?
2                THE REPORTER:        This is the Court Reporter.
3 I have no questions.        Thank you.
4                CHAIRMAN QUAY:        Okay.      Thank you. Thank 5 you very much. With that, this meeting is concluded.
6 And we will be terminating the phone connection.
7                (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 8                concluded at 9:43 p.m.)
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34 1
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2            NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3                  +  +  +  +  +
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4              NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 5                  +  +  +  +  +
6                PETITION REVIEW BOARD 7              DISCUSSION WITH PETITIONER 8 --------------------------- 9 In the Matter of:          :
10 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION      :
11 OF MICHAEL MULLIGAN        :
12 WITH RESPECT TO            :
13 PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT    :
14 --------------------------- 15                      Thursday, March 31, 2011 16  17            The above-entitled conference convened via 18 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m.
19 Eastern Daylight Time.
20 BEFORE: 21  THEODORE QUAY, Petition Review Board Chairman 22  MAHESH CHAWLA, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition 23  TANYA MENSAH, Petition Coordinator 24  ANDREA RUSSELL, NRR/Division of Policy and Rulemaking 25 26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2NRC STAFF PRESENT:
1      STEVEN GARRY, NRR/Health Physics and Human 2          Performance Branch 3      VIJAY GOEL, NRR/EEEB 4      MATTHEW HAMM, NRR/Technical Specifications 5          Branch 6      JAY WALLACE, NRR/DCI/Piping and NDE Branch 7  8 ALSO PRESENT:
9        TERRY DAVIS, Entergy Nuclear/Palisades 10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3                P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1                                          (9:00 a.m.)
2            MR. CHAWLA:  I would like to thank 3 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mac 4 Chawla. 5            Did somebody join here?
6            MR. GOEL:  Yes. This is Vijay Goel.
7            MR. CHAWLA:  Oh, hi, Vijay.
8            MR. GOEL:  Hi.
9            MR. CHAWLA:  Oh, we just started. Okay.
10            MR. GOEL:  Okay.
11            MR. CHAWLA:  I would like to thank 12 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mac 13 Chawla. And I am the Palisades Nuclear Plant Project 14 Manager. 15            We are here today to allow the petitioner, 16 Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 17 regarding the 2.206 petition dated February 22, 2011.
18 I am the Petition Manager for the petition. The 19 Petition Review Board Chairman is Ted Quay.
20            As far as the Petition Review Board's, or 21 PRB's, review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 22 requested this opportunity to address the PRB. This 23 meeting is scheduled from 9:00 to 10:00 a.m. Eastern 24 Daylight Time.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4            The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 1 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 2 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 3 the petition. The transcript will also be made 4 publicly available.
5            I would like to open this meeting with 6 introductions. As you go around the room, please be 7 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 8 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 9 record. 10            I will start off. Again, my name is Mac 11 Chawla. I am the Petition Manager. We go around the 12 room here.
13            MS. MENSAH:  Tanya Mensah, 2.206 14 Coordinator, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
15            MR. HAMM:  Matthew Hamm, reactor systems 16 engineer, the Technical Specifications Branch in NRR.
17            MR. GARRY:  Steve Garry, senior health 18 physicist, Office of NRR.
19            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Ted Quay, Petition Review 20 Board Chairman, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
21            MS. RUSSELL:  Andrea Russell, Division of 22 Policy and Rulemaking, Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
23            MR. WALLACE:  Jay Wallace, materials 24 engineer, NRR, Piping and NDE Branch.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5            MR. CHAWLA:  This is all the folks at 1 headquarters. And we have Mr. Vijay Goel. He's on 2 the phone.
3            MR. GOEL:  Right. That's Vijay Goel from 4 Electrical Branch, NRR.
5            MR. CHAWLA:  Okay. At this time are there 6 -- there are no other participants on the phone from 7 headquarters, right?
8            (No response.)
9            MR. CHAWLA:  Hearing none, are there any 10 participants from the regional office on the phone?
11            (No response.)
12            MR. CHAWLA:  Okay. Not hearing anybody 13 here, it looks like there is no one from the region 14 here. 15            Are there any representatives for the 16 licensee 17 on the phone?
18            MR. DAVIS:  Yes. My name is Terry Davis.
19 I work in Nuclear Safety Assurance Licensing. I'm a 20 senior tech specialist.
21            MR. CHAWLA:  Okay. Hi, Terry.
22            MR. DAVIS:  Hi, Mac.
23            MR. CHAWLA:  Mr. Mulligan, would you 24 please introduce yourself for the record now?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6            MR. MULLIGAN:  I'm Mike Mulligan. And I 1 am a whistle-blower. I worked in the industry. I was 2 on submarines. And I worked in the industry for a 3 number of years. And I whistle-blowed on a certain 4 amount of other issues.
5            Thank you.
6            MR. CHAWLA:  Okay. Thank you.
7            It is not required for members of the 8 public to introduce themselves for this call.
9 However, if there are any members of the public on the 10 phone that wish to do so at this time, please state 11 your name for the record.
12            (No response.)
13            MR. CHAWLA:  Hearing none, I would say 14 there is no members of the public.
15            I would like to emphasize that we each 16 need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 17 Court Reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
18 If you do have something that you would like to say, 19 please first state your name for the record.
20            For those dialing into the meeting, please 21 remember to mute your phones to minimize any 22 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 23 a MUTE button, this can be done by pressing the keys 24 *6. To unmute, press the *6 keys again. Thank you.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7            At this time I will turn it over to the 1 PRB Chairman, Ted Quay.
2            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Good morning. Welcome to 3 this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by 4 Mr. Mulligan. I would like to first share some 5 background on our process.
6            Section 2.206 of Title X of the Code of 7 Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 8 the primary mechanism for the public to request 9 enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
10            This process permits anyone to petition 11 the NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 12 licensees or licensed activities. Depending on the 13 results of its evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 14 or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 15 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
16 The NRC staff guidance on the disposition of 2.206 17 petition requests is in management directive, 8.11, 18 which is publicly available.
19            The purpose of today's meeting is to give 20 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 21 additional explanation or support for the petition 22 before the Petition Review Board's initial 23 consideration and recommendation.
24            This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 1 examine the Petition Review Board on the merits or the 2 issues presented in the petition request. No decision 3 regarding the merits of the petition will be made at 4 this meeting.
5            Following this meeting, the Petition 6 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
7 The outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 8 with the petitioner.
9            The Petition Review Board typically 10 consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 11 Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 12 petition manager and a Petition Review Board 13 coordinator. Other members of the Board are 14 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 15 the information in the petition request.
16            At this time I would like to introduce the 17 Board. I am Ted Quay, the Petition Review Board 18 Chairman. Mac Chawla is the Petition Manager for the 19 petition under discussion today. Andrea Russell is 20 the 2.206 Coordinator. Our technical staff includes 21 Vijay Goel, electrical engineer from the Office of 22 Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Electrical Engineering 23 Branch; Jay Wallace, materials engineer from the 24 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Piping and NDE 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9Branch; Matt Hamm, reactor systems engineer from the 1 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Technical 2 Specification Branch; and Steven Garry, senior health 3 physicist from the Office of Nuclear Reactor 4 Regulation's Health Physics and Human Performance 5 Branch. 6            As described in our process, the NRC staff 7 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 8 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach 9 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 10 petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 11 process. 12            I would like to summarize the scope of the 13 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 14 date. On February 22nd, 2011, Mr. Michael Mulligan 15 submitted to the NRC a petition under the 2.206 16 process regarding Palisades Nuclear Plant located in 17 Van Buren County, Michigan.
18            In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan 19 identified the following areas of concern. Mr.
20 Mulligan stated that the reactor oversight program is 21 ineffective and Entergy has a documented history of a 22 culture of falsification and thumbing their noses at 23 reoccurring violations.
24            In his petition, Mr. Mulligan requested 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  10the following actions:  one, immediate shutdown of 1 Palisades and other Entergy nuclear power plants; two, 2 replacement of top Palisades management staff; three, 3 replacement of Entergy corporate nuclear staff; four, 4 assignment of two additional NRC inspectors at 5 Palisades; five, formation of a local public oversight 6 panel around every plant; six, formation of an 7 emergency NRC senior official oversight panel; seven, 8 formation of a national NRC oversight public panel; 9 eight, analysis of Entergy's reoccurring problems; 10 and, nine, evaluation of NRC Region III resources.
11            As the basis for this request, Mr.
12 Mulligan cited various plant events/issues, which can 13 be divided into the following categories:  one, 14 equipment failures; two, documentation/design basis 15 concerns; three, radiation protection; four, records 16 falsification; and, five, reactor oversight process.
17            Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 18 date. On February 4th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan requested 19 an opportunity to address the Petition Review Board by 20 phone. 21            On March 2nd, 2011, Mr. Mulligan made an 22 additional request to speak to an NRC official 23 regarding the general state of conditions at Palisades 24 prior to addressing the PRB.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  11            On March 3rd, 2011, the PRB met to discuss 1 the request for immediate action only. The PRB denied 2 the request for immediate action because there were no 3 immediate safety concerns to the plant or to the 4 public health and safety of the public.
5            On March 4th, 2011, the Petition Review 6 Board's decision was conveyed to Mr. Mulligan. Mr.
7 Mulligan was also informed that the request to speak 8 to an NRC official was outside the 2.206 process and 9 he would have the opportunity during the phone call 10 with the PRB to address his concerns and provide 11 additional information.
12            On March 7th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan addressed 13 the PRB. And that is documented in ADAMS session 14 number ML110760687.
15            On March 21st, 2011, the PRB met 16 internally and made an initial recommendation that the 17 petition did not meet the criteria for review because 18 the petitioner failed to provide sufficient facts to 19 warrant further inquiry beyond what was already 20 inspected and documented in NRC inspection reports.
21            On March 24th, 2011, the petitioner was 22 informed by the PRB of the PRB's initial 23 recommendation and requested an additional opportunity 24 to address the PRB to provide additional information 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  12in support of his petition request.
1            As a reminder for the phone participants, 2 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 3 this will help in the preparation of the meeting 4 transcript that will be made publicly available.
5 Thank you.
6            And at this point, Mr. Mulligan, I will 7 turn it over to you.
8            MR. MULLIGAN:  Mr. Quay, when you retire, 9 you know, you could always join our side.
10            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  I sure could.
11            MR. MULLIGAN:  You know, a lot of what is 12 going on here is, you know, you know, through Congress 13 and all that sort of stuff, the agency, Entergy, and 14 the industry has gotten into this hyper promotional 15 stance where all you guys, you think you're a used car 16 salesman and you're basically throwing out, you know, 17 just positive information, the kind of information 18 that is promotional that just reflects under the parts 19 of the car and stuff like that.
20            And your real job considering our sacred 21 duties is to explain to us what is really going on 22 behind the scenes and explain this and that and you 23 give us an accurate picture and stuff like that. You 24 know, the public should be involved.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  13            But what you are really doing is you are 1 talking to yourselves. When you're talking to the 2 public, you're really talking to yourselves. You're 3 kind of adding on. You have another party you're 4 bringing this talk in. You have another party you're 5 bringing that's listening to what you're saying. And 6 you're more or less talking to yourselves. And I 7 think that is more important.
8            And you are being honest. You are talking 9 in the communication that's honest. This is a 10 positive. This is our negatives.
11            And, you know, like for the last weekend 12 and stuff, we've been seeing a lot of pretty pictures 13 with a lot of different plants, promotional types of 14 stuff. And they are pretty pictures.
15            And you would be well the whole industry 16 would be well, to -- I can give you some ugly 17 pictures. And that would be H. B. Robinson and Wolf 18 Creek Plant. The H. B. Robinson Plant was just an 19 assortment of different things. A cable failed. And 20 then they uncovered a whole bunch of other events --
21 I mean, other equipment people, procedures, a plant 22 simulation, computer simulation, and stuff like that.
23            You weren't smart enough to figure out 24 what needed to be corrected, and then you had another 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  14event and stuff like that. Really, the failure isn't 1 really the H. B. Robinson Plant. It's NRC for not 2 being able to protect our nation and to protect 3 ourselves from these types of accidents.
4            These things are all around us, we feel.
5 There are a lot of good plants. There's a lot of 6 plants that are in trouble. And they're spinning in 7 a bad direction. And the NRC doesn't -- the real 8 reactor oversight process doesn't create that 9 incentive to change behavior. They go according to 10 the procedures.
11            But who is to say the procedures are right 12 or the policies are right?  Something has got to be 13 higher than that. You know, there's got to be a sense 14 of doing good.
15            And so we -- you know, this promotional 16 business with the industry is a fanaticism. It's a 17 diction. And in these times, you have a paradigm 18 change. And promotionalism can really end up heading 19 south. People will end up seeing the game. And we'll 20 lose even more confidence on what is going on in the 21 industry.
22            We don't see -- most of my engineer 23 friends that are out there, you know, they got it 24 wrong. They talk about battery chargers and batteries 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  15and seismic calculations and all that stuff. Well, 1 they're going at it backwards and stuff like that.
2            Well, we as a nation have seen as 3 organizations fail, they give signals of that for 4 years. When that accident happens, like the Gulf, you 5 find out afterwards that, you know, what wasn't 6 disclosed was sickening. You know, before the 7 accident, what they knew and what they knew they 8 didn't know. And stuff was sickening, absolutely 9 disgustingly sickening, what they knew about what was 10 going on, and stuff like that.
11            So components don't fail. Battery 12 chargers don't fail. Relays don't fail. It's people.
13 The organizations fail. And to a host of reasons, 14 through incentives, to talk one way, to think one way, 15 or disincentive, intimidation systems, subtle and 16 promotional and outright illegal distribution, those 17 are things that frame how people talk and stuff.
18            What facilitates and accommodates that is 19 barriers. You don't do things when the world can see 20 you. You only do those kinds of things when you are 21 hidden behind barriers. And people can't see it. And 22 the vet work is going on behind the scenes and stuff 23 like that.
24            They tell me with this power-safe 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.  
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16business, I ain't got proof. Well, you know, I could 1 say certainty, certainty, gaming. You know, I choose 2 to display this. I choose not to display that. I 3 choose to display this certainty, and I choose to hide 4 this uncertainty and the whole thing there.
5            You end up creating a picture that is 6 inaccurate when you do it for self-interest, 7 self-interested reasons and stuff. There has got to 8 be something bigger there, why we do things, bigger 9 than self-interest.
10            You know, we belong to a great nation.
11 And I think we don't think a lot of times that we --
12 we served a great nation. When we served a great 13 nation, we serve ourselves the best.
14            They had the business with this QA 15 business stuff. You've got managers that --
16 essentially managers in Palisades lied about 17 credentials, managers' credentials, and stuff like 18 that. The new stuff that's coming out they've just 19 been coming out as well.
20            You know, this really wasn't illegal.
21 Lying about credentials and stuff really wasn't 22 illegal because it was just in Entergy's procedures.
23 And the agency is powerless to make a stand on that, 24 these kind of falsifications and stuff. They're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17powerless because, you know, we've got to follow 1 procedures and our rules.
2            And there's really nothing in there that 3 says this is illegal. And so, you know, what you're 4 doing I think is you're trying to get through this 5 tech spec business. You're going to add 6 qualifications, requirements to tech specs. And so 7 that will get you.
8            You know, I find it amazing that you can't 9 get a plant -- you can't have the power to prevent 10 falsification and stuff.
11            You know, the QA/QC business, you 12 basically said, you know, it's a high management type 13 of inspection. And you say you find a lot of stuff.
14 You didn't find a lot of -- you know, most of it was 15 construction-related. And it pays to what it's really 16 about. And then you tell us that we haven't inspected 17 plants at the plant level. There just hasn't been 18 inspections with this QA/QC business.
19            I might make a case. You got the safety 20 release at Vermont Yankee, that questions QC/QA.
21 You've got Holtech issues with Entergy not being 22 able to maintain their quality of standards and stuff 23 like that. So, you know, you have to kind of -- this 24 thing is -- it sounds to me like it's a lot bigger 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  18than construction-related activities.
1            And, as I talked about, you know, the NRC 2 has a habit if they know something is going on, they 3 ding them on the little stuff and then at Palisades or 4 Entergy or a number of these plants, they go behind 5 the scenes. And they correct all the stuff the public 6 can't see, can't see what's going on. And we get a 7 falsification of really what's going on there.
8            And so Entergy will come back later on and 9 say, "Well, we -- you know, at the plant level, we did 10 our own -- we caught our own thing. And we finally 11 figured out what is wrong with QA/QC. And we take 12 credit for it."  And that is wrong.
13            That whole thing is a falsification. You 14 are creating a false image. And if you've got two 15 QA/QC problems, you should hunt that thing to the end 16 immediately and fix it and stuff like that.
17            So like right now, you live in uncertainty 18 as far as what is the QA status of a lot of these 19 plants. And, really, if you don't -- you know, that's 20 what I'm talking about with certainty uncertainty.
21 You live in a -- there is uncertainty there. And if 22 you don't got the proof that the plant is safe, you 23 know, you should shut it down.
24            I don't have the proof because the NRC 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  19doesn't do the inspections. And they don't give me 1 the access to the plant and stuff.
2            And we talked about that. What was that 3 battery charger?  You know, remember, I said battery 4 capacity and stuff is really not the issue here. You 5 know, that DD206, the battery charger, the relays and 6 battery charger, like the plant should have. I mean, 7 they should have followed their procedures, gotten 8 into a -- I don't know what it was -- a shutdown or 9 something, notified the NRC. And they didn't, I mean.
10            And there is really no punishment to that 11 as far as I see. Everybody plays in papier-mache. I 12 talked about papier-mache safety systems. And 13 papier-mache, you don't just file the paperwork and 14 nobody gives a shit because all you're throwing at 15 them is paperwork. And you don't make consequences.
16            How you see a tragic event, the Gulf of 17 Mexico or Davis-Besse, what happened is -- this is a 18 model. I'm trying to build a model here. People 19 corrupt language. You can see this corruption of 20 language a million miles away. You can see it years 21 before the accident.
22            And you corrupt language. You corrupt 23 communications in little ways. And everybody gets 24 away with it. And the next thing, you create this 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  20model thinking and stuff. And that's what leads to 1 all our problems in the nuclear industry.
2            I can remember I am trying to explain a 3 model here. And this is a good one. I'm up in 4 Vermont Yankee. And I'm up in training. And I've 5 been stripped from my shift. You know they're going 6 to get me. And they're getting ready to take my 7 license from me. I knew it was happening. I was 8 terrified. But I had to go through it.
9            And the year prior to that, I was having 10 -- I mean, it was unbelievable the stuff that was 11 going on. I had written a little -- I had to trust 12 the NRC. I wrote a letter to the governor. She kind 13 of balked. I got her in trouble. And the next thing 14 you know, we had them starting a huge investigation.
15            The investigation was over intermittent 16 short of the fuel pool pump and stuff. I just 17 couldn't take it anymore. And the procedure said, 18 "Precaution."  The procedure said if that pump wasn't 19 operational in a month, you are required to shut down.
20            And you create those penalties there. If 21 it's not there, if they don't have that pump, if they 22 don't have a spare pump, you've got create a 23 punishment. You just can't keep facilitating this, 24 saying, "We've got a zillion backup systems. Nothing 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  21ever matters."  You create a punishment there.
1            You shut them down. And then everybody 2 says, "Oh, no. Vermont Yankee got shut down" or 3 somebody else "got shut down."  And then everybody 4 starts behaving and you don't have all the 5 paper-mache systems and stuff like that.
6            So you know what Vermont Yankee was doing?
7 You know, you had to have two pumps or be shut down in 8 a month. They didn't have a repair motor. And they 9 had to make that repair motor. They had to build that 10 motor from scratch, safety-grade motor from scratch.
11            They initially tagged the breaker and the 12 switch because they didn't want anybody using that 13 motor and stuff. And we knew that. You know, I knew 14 that and stuff. And a month goes by. And nobody says 15 anything. A few months go by. And NRC has an issue 16 with it, with the tag on the breaker, on the switch.
17 And then they talk about it. And the NRC gets them to 18 put a precaution tag on there and stuff like that.
19            So, you know, then people start saying, 20 "Well, what do you base that on?  What engineering do 21 you base that on?"  Me?  You've got to have proof. At 22 least that shows up. You've got to have proof. You 23 know, that's what we live and breathe by and stuff.
24 And so they didn't have it and stuff like that.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  22            And so months go by and stuff. And I'm 1 getting fed up with all this stuff. They didn't have 2 -- you know, they had to get repaired. They had to 3 build a new motor. It took a long time and stuff like 4 that. And they weren't dealing with that requirement 5 of being shut down in 30 days and stuff.
6            So we're at a month and stuff. And I'm 7 getting sick and tired of it. And I knew the NRC was 8 powerless. And I was trying to play the NRC against 9 the state. And so I wrote a letter to the governor.
10 And I got her in a -- she kind of sat on it. And I 11 got her into trouble. And the investigation ensued.
12            You know, on that investigation with 13 Vermont, we had the memorandum of understanding. In 14 other words, the state couldn't go where they pleased 15 in the plant to look at the documents that they needed 16 and stuff like that. Vermont Yankee would prevent 17 them from doing it. And through all of this 18 networking, we got a memorandum of understanding.
19            We had troubles with the emergency diesel 20 generators everybody here is aware at Calvert Cliffs 21 business recently with leaking roofs. Well, we had 22 leaking roofs above the diesel generators for years 23 and came in with big puddles.
24            My sense because I didn't engage it, we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  23lost power sense and stuff. And so I made a deal 1 that, you know, before I left there, I was going to 2 fix that because I know my time was coming to an end 3 and stuff.
4            So, you know, we had rainstorms and more 5 puddles and water leaking down on the outlet breaker 6 and the panels. You know it was ugly and stuff.
7            And it took me a number of, six, months.
8 The outcome and all that business was to -- was the 9 roofs were coming into age, into time, you know, and 10 stuff. And they had to replace all the roofs. I 11 mean, that's what it was all about, took us six months 12 to figure it out and stuff.
13            So, again, the people are dead. The 14 brains are dead more or less. They've been turned on 15 for some reason. People's minds are turned off for a 16 number of different incentives and stuff like that.
17            We talked. I told her. I told the 18 governor. I says, "You're going to have a lot of --
19 you're going to have a simple plant trip. It's going 20 to turn into being really ugly. And you're going to 21 have a lot of equipment. And we're going to get 22 confused."  I mean, that's what we're facing and stuff 23 like that.
24            I'm here to tell you that you can see 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  24these things a year, two years away. Everybody plays 1 games. The NRC plays certainty certainty games. I'm 2 here to tell you. I'm here to testify you can see 3 these years ahead of time. They usually revolve 4 around budget issues.
5            Budgets are so difficult to -- you know, 6 restrictions or reductions or new needs show up and 7 you don't get the money and stuff. Those are so 8 difficult to manage on these big organizations. You 9 know, they typically come back to, say, a five percent 10 reduction and stuff. And who gives -- you know, they 11 don't care what that does to the people's minds. And 12 not very many people get it right and stuff.
13            So I'm sitting up there in training. And 14 I know it's bleak. And, all of a sudden, I get a call 15 from the plant. And they tell me, "Mike, would you 16 work some overtime?" 17            And so I says, "Sure. What's going on?"
18 They didn't really want me at the plant at that point.
19 It was in such a bleak condition.
20            And they said, "We had an accident. And 21 we need you down here." 22            So I came down here. And what happened 23 was they had a loss of off-site power in 1992 and 24 stuff. What they were doing was they were changing 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  25the batteries out in the switch gear -- the shift yard 1 and taking shortcuts, you know. They got away with 2 shortcuts for years and stuff like that.
3            And shortcuts are difficult stuff because 4 they give so much positive incentives when you take 5 them. And it's once every 50 times that you do it 6 that you really pay the price.
7            And so they were replacing batteries.
8 They replaced one battery. They had two independent 9 sides. They had one battery out. They had the two 10 sides connected on one charger and one battery. And 11 the charger that was -- the remaining charger, can you 12 believe that?  Two safety sides connected together, 13 safety sides of all the electronics out in the 14 switchyard and stuff. And it had two batteries and 15 one charger, and the charger was defective. They had 16 diodes out. It was half broken, you know, and stuff.
17            I believe when they opened the breaker, 18 when they closed the breaker connecting two batteries 19 together and stuff, they had a big voltage surge and 20 knocked out a bunch of components at Vermont Yankee in 21 the switchyard. And that's how we got our loss of 22 off-site power.
23            It lasted for -- the Pettitbone, that 24 stupid crane, wasn't on site. We had to wait a long 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  26time for the crane to come so that we could backfeed 1 the plant from the shift yard. It was 12 hours 2 without any electricity at, outside electricity at, 3 Vermont Yankee.
4            The employees told me. They said it was 5 like a movie.  "We thought we was in a movie when this 6 was happening." 7            The diesel generators had flow problems.
8 We had flow problems with water. The design accident 9 for the diesel generators is one diesel generator 10 fails, the other diesel generator still works. And so 11 the assumption is there is only one diesel generator 12 working. 13            So the design assumption the engineers, 14 the cheapskate engineers, you know, they say, "Well, 15 why do we have to build two diesel generators?  It's 16 supposed to be independent." 17            So the design engineers said, "We're going 18 to just -- we only need one discharge. We can route 19 the two service water discharges for the diesel 20 generators into one pipe. And that's good enough 21 because, you know, we're only going to have one diesel 22 generator when it ends" and stuff.
23            So then they had a valve at the end of 24 this one discharge line, service water discharge line.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  27And we had radiation detector problems. It wasn't 1 getting enough service water. The NRC was getting on 2 our case all the time.
3            We were losing the service water. It 4 wasn't getting enough pressure. And the service water 5 rad monitor was going inop and stuff. And the NRC 6 drives the -- finally had enough.
7            So we had one operator say, "Well, I know 8 what I'll do. That one isolation, that one manual 9 valve that connects the two diesel generators, well, 10 we'll throttle it down. And we'll get the -- we'll 11 bring the pressure up" and stuff like that. So that's 12 what he did. He said, "The problem is with the 13 service water rad monitor." 14            Of course, when the diesel generators --
15 when the two diesel generators start and stuff like 16 that and you have that excess service water load, it 17 was throttled. And it drove during the loss of 18 off-site. It drove the plant, the discharge pressure, 19 high. And it pegged up the meters, the flow meters, 20 of the service water flow to the diesel generators.
21            So, you know, for a couple of minutes 22 there, it looked pretty God damn bleak in the control 23 room. I wasn't there, but I had buddies that told me 24 about it. You know, they were in half light. And 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  28diesel generators had started up. They had trouble 1 with RCIC.
2            And, for a couple of minutes, they didn't 3 know what the hell was wrong with the diesel 4 generators other than they didn't have -- they thought 5 service water pressure was pegged high. And the flows 6 were -- I don't know. I think they were low or high.
7            And it took two or three minutes for 8 everybody to figure -- you know, looking at the RTDs, 9 RTEs, whatever they're called, you know, that they 10 weren't going high before we figured out that, oh, 11 they've got enough service water flow. We didn't 12 know, you know, how much service water flows, how much 13 or anything like that.
14            But those two minutes, everybody realized 15 that how close they were, you know, because what was 16 -- you know, if they ever -- they got a couple of high 17 alarms on the motor but not high enough to threaten 18 the operation of it and stuff like that, which you 19 couldn't see what the flow was. And, you know, as 20 operators, we could imagine how close we were to --
21 without having any diesel generators, we were damn 22 close. 23            You know, they, the NRC and the industry, 24 they played around because they knew I was talking to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  29outsiders, the media, and all that sort of stuff.
1            Politicians hate me because I drive them 2 into being involved with a plant like Vermont Yankee.
3 They want to be stupid and outside and stuff.
4            During those, you know, two critical 5 minutes, two or three critical minutes, five minutes, 6 where nobody knew they had enough diesel generator 7 flow, they heard this -- they heard these humongous 8 booms in the control room and stuff.
9            Nobody could -- you know, that's at the 10 part where right at the beginning of an accident, 11 where you don't know what's going on and you hear this 12 repetitive boom, boom, boom. They finally figured out 13 it was coming from the main condenser area.
14            And they had guys go down there. And they 15 are looking around trying to figure out what was the 16 noise. I think it was leaking main feedwater check 17 valves that was causing this. And then that water was 18 building up. Probably the feedwater feeders were 19 filled with hot water. And I don't -- some check 20 valve somewhere was making all this noise.
21            And the operator said he never -- he 22 couldn't believe it. They bled the feedwater system.
23 And that stopped it. But he said he couldn't believe 24 it walking up those -- inside that main condenser 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  30area. He says he has -- the noise was so loud, and it 1 was hurting his ears, never seen anything like it. He 2 said he -- the noise was hurting his chest it was so 3 loud and stuff.
4            And so, I mean, that's my story of how I 5 -- I mean, I had those feelings when I was -- when 6 this whole thing started. I says, "You know, if it 7 goes south, how can I live with myself?  If the plant 8 has a big problem and stuff and I've always" -- and 9 that has never left me. You know, what happens if I 10 have special knowledge and something goes wrong at 11 Vermont Yankee or it goes -- I have special knowledge 12 or if I have -- something goes wrong with the NRC or 13 another plant. And can I live with myself if we have 14 a Fukushima or a single plant or something?  Can I 15 live with myself if it happens?  And I don't think I 16 could. I never could, you know.
17            I destroyed my career. It's left residual 18 issues, emotional issues, with me. I've damaged my 19 children as far as not -- you know, I don't have the 20 credentials anymore and all that sort of stuff.
21            You know, I did that knowing that, you 22 know, down deep I said to myself, if something bad 23 happens, can I live with myself?  Well, I'm an idiot, 24 you know. If an event happens and stuff, will I blame 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  31myself?  And I think I will.
1            And, you know, it's a choice who you hurt.
2 You hurt your family or you hurt, you know, a lot of 3 other people. So that's my story. As far as how 4 organizations, go numb for some reason, 5 multi-organizations.
6            The employee, the utility, a plant, a 7 Palisades miscommunication, you know, this inaccurate, 8 distorted communication, everybody gets the wrong 9 impression. Nobody is talking honestly anymore and 10 painfully and stuff, the agency and stuff.
11            You know, we have all seen it across the 12 nation where it's not really the components that fail, 13 although they do. It's the people. It's the people 14 and the little things they do that cause these things 15 and stuff. Don't deal with our problems, the 16 incentives, disincentives, and stuff.
17            So that's my story as far as how a plant 18 can go really bad. And I thank you for this 19 opportunity to speak with you. Thank you.
20            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Okay. At this time does 21 the staff here at headquarters have any questions for 22 Mr. Mulligan?
23            (No response.)
24            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Mr. Goel, you are on the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  32line. Do you have any questions?
1            MR. GOEL:  No. This is Vijay Goel. I 2 have no questions.
3            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Okay. Does the licensee 4 have any questions?
5            MR. DAVIS:  No. This is Terry Davis. I 6 have no questions.
7            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Okay. Thank you.
8            Before I conclude the meeting, members of 9 the public may provide comments regarding the petition 10 and may ask questions about the 2.206 petition 11 process. However, as stated at the opening, the 12 purpose of this meeting is not to provide an 13 opportunity for the petitioner or the public to 14 question or examine the Petition Review Board 15 regarding the merits of the petition request.
16            Has any member of the public joined the 17 phone call that wants to make a comment?
18            (No response.)
19            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Hearing none, Mr.
20 Mulligan, thank you for taking time to provide the NRC 21 staff with clarifying information on the petition you 22 have submitted.
23            Before we close, does the Court Reporter 24 need any additional information for the meeting 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  33transcript?
1            THE REPORTER:  This is the Court Reporter.
2 I have no questions. Thank you.
3            CHAIRMAN QUAY:  Okay. Thank you. Thank 4 you very much. With that, this meeting is concluded.
5 And we will be terminating the phone connection.
6            (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 7            concluded at 9:43 p.m.)
8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS  1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com  34 1}}

Latest revision as of 08:44, 6 December 2019

Transcript 2206 Call 033111: 10 CFR 2.206 Petition Palisades Nuclear Plant, Pages 1-33
ML110960237
Person / Time
Site: Palisades Entergy icon.png
Issue date: 03/31/2011
From:
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation
To:
chawla M
References
2.206, NRC-823, G20110127, OEDO-2011-0156
Download: ML110960237 (35)
v • d • e


Text

Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

Title:

10 CFR 2.206 Petition RE Palisades Nuclear Plant Docket Number: (n/a)

Location: (telephone conference)

Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011 Work Order No.: NRC-823 Pages 1-33 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 + + + + +

3 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4 + + + + +

5 NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 6 + + + + +

7 PETITION REVIEW BOARD 8 DISCUSSION WITH PETITIONER 9 ---------------------------

10 In the Matter of:  :

11 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION  :

12 OF MICHAEL MULLIGAN  :

13 WITH RESPECT TO  :

14 PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT  :

15 ---------------------------

16 Thursday, March 31, 2011 17 18 The above-entitled conference convened via 19 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m.

20 Eastern Daylight Time.

21 BEFORE:

22 THEODORE QUAY, Petition Review Board Chairman 23 MAHESH CHAWLA, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition 24 TANYA MENSAH, Petition Coordinator 25 ANDREA RUSSELL, NRR/Division of Policy and Rulemaking 26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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2 1 NRC STAFF PRESENT:

2 STEVEN GARRY, NRR/Health Physics and Human 3 Performance Branch 4 VIJAY GOEL, NRR/EEEB 5 MATTHEW HAMM, NRR/Technical Specifications 6 Branch 7 JAY WALLACE, NRR/DCI/Piping and NDE Branch 8

9 ALSO PRESENT:

10 TERRY DAVIS, Entergy Nuclear/Palisades 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:00 a.m.)

3 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to thank 4 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mac 5 Chawla.

6 Did somebody join here?

7 MR. GOEL: Yes. This is Vijay Goel.

8 MR. CHAWLA: Oh, hi, Vijay.

9 MR. GOEL: Hi.

10 MR. CHAWLA: Oh, we just started. Okay.

11 MR. GOEL: Okay.

12 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to thank 13 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mac 14 Chawla. And I am the Palisades Nuclear Plant Project 15 Manager.

16 We are here today to allow the petitioner, 17 Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 18 regarding the 2.206 petition dated February 22, 2011.

19 I am the Petition Manager for the petition. The 20 Petition Review Board Chairman is Ted Quay.

21 As far as the Petition Review Board's, or 22 PRB's, review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 23 requested this opportunity to address the PRB. This 24 meeting is scheduled from 9:00 to 10:00 a.m. Eastern 25 Daylight Time.

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4 1 The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 2 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 3 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 4 the petition. The transcript will also be made 5 publicly available.

6 I would like to open this meeting with 7 introductions. As you go around the room, please be 8 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 9 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 10 record.

11 I will start off. Again, my name is Mac 12 Chawla. I am the Petition Manager. We go around the 13 room here.

14 MS. MENSAH: Tanya Mensah, 2.206 15 Coordinator, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.

16 MR. HAMM: Matthew Hamm, reactor systems 17 engineer, the Technical Specifications Branch in NRR.

18 MR. GARRY: Steve Garry, senior health 19 physicist, Office of NRR.

20 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Ted Quay, Petition Review 21 Board Chairman, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.

22 MS. RUSSELL: Andrea Russell, Division of 23 Policy and Rulemaking, Nuclear Reactor Regulation.

24 MR. WALLACE: Jay Wallace, materials 25 engineer, NRR, Piping and NDE Branch.

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5 1 MR. CHAWLA: This is all the folks at 2 headquarters. And we have Mr. Vijay Goel. He's on 3 the phone.

4 MR. GOEL: Right. That's Vijay Goel from 5 Electrical Branch, NRR.

6 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. At this time are there 7 -- there are no other participants on the phone from 8 headquarters, right?

9 (No response.)

10 MR. CHAWLA: Hearing none, are there any 11 participants from the regional office on the phone?

12 (No response.)

13 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Not hearing anybody 14 here, it looks like there is no one from the region 15 here.

16 Are there any representatives for the 17 licensee 18 on the phone?

19 MR. DAVIS: Yes. My name is Terry Davis.

20 I work in Nuclear Safety Assurance Licensing. I'm a 21 senior tech specialist.

22 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Hi, Terry.

23 MR. DAVIS: Hi, Mac.

24 MR. CHAWLA: Mr. Mulligan, would you 25 please introduce yourself for the record now?

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6 1 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan. And I 2 am a whistle-blower. I worked in the industry. I was 3 on submarines. And I worked in the industry for a 4 number of years. And I whistle-blowed on a certain 5 amount of other issues.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Thank you.

8 It is not required for members of the 9 public to introduce themselves for this call.

10 However, if there are any members of the public on the 11 phone that wish to do so at this time, please state 12 your name for the record.

13 (No response.)

14 MR. CHAWLA: Hearing none, I would say 15 there is no members of the public.

16 I would like to emphasize that we each 17 need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 18 Court Reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.

19 If you do have something that you would like to say, 20 please first state your name for the record.

21 For those dialing into the meeting, please 22 remember to mute your phones to minimize any 23 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 24 a MUTE button, this can be done by pressing the keys 25 *6. To unmute, press the *6 keys again. Thank you.

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7 1 At this time I will turn it over to the 2 PRB Chairman, Ted Quay.

3 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Good morning. Welcome to 4 this meeting regarding the 2.206 petition submitted by 5 Mr. Mulligan. I would like to first share some 6 background on our process.

7 Section 2.206 of Title X of the Code of 8 Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 9 the primary mechanism for the public to request 10 enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.

11 This process permits anyone to petition 12 the NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 13 licensees or licensed activities. Depending on the 14 results of its evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 15 or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 16 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.

17 The NRC staff guidance on the disposition of 2.206 18 petition requests is in management directive, 8.11, 19 which is publicly available.

20 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 21 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 22 additional explanation or support for the petition 23 before the Petition Review Board's initial 24 consideration and recommendation.

25 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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8 1 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 2 examine the Petition Review Board on the merits or the 3 issues presented in the petition request. No decision 4 regarding the merits of the petition will be made at 5 this meeting.

6 Following this meeting, the Petition 7 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.

8 The outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 9 with the petitioner.

10 The Petition Review Board typically 11 consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 12 Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 13 petition manager and a Petition Review Board 14 coordinator. Other members of the Board are 15 determined by the NRC staff based on the content of 16 the information in the petition request.

17 At this time I would like to introduce the 18 Board. I am Ted Quay, the Petition Review Board 19 Chairman. Mac Chawla is the Petition Manager for the 20 petition under discussion today. Andrea Russell is 21 the 2.206 Coordinator. Our technical staff includes 22 Vijay Goel, electrical engineer from the Office of 23 Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Electrical Engineering 24 Branch; Jay Wallace, materials engineer from the 25 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Piping and NDE NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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9 1 Branch; Matt Hamm, reactor systems engineer from the 2 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation's Technical 3 Specification Branch; and Steven Garry, senior health 4 physicist from the Office of Nuclear Reactor 5 Regulation's Health Physics and Human Performance 6 Branch.

7 As described in our process, the NRC staff 8 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 9 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach 10 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 11 petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 12 process.

13 I would like to summarize the scope of the 14 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 15 date. On February 22nd, 2011, Mr. Michael Mulligan 16 submitted to the NRC a petition under the 2.206 17 process regarding Palisades Nuclear Plant located in 18 Van Buren County, Michigan.

19 In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan 20 identified the following areas of concern. Mr.

21 Mulligan stated that the reactor oversight program is 22 ineffective and Entergy has a documented history of a 23 culture of falsification and thumbing their noses at 24 reoccurring violations.

25 In his petition, Mr. Mulligan requested NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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10 1 the following actions: one, immediate shutdown of 2 Palisades and other Entergy nuclear power plants; two, 3 replacement of top Palisades management staff; three, 4 replacement of Entergy corporate nuclear staff; four, 5 assignment of two additional NRC inspectors at 6 Palisades; five, formation of a local public oversight 7 panel around every plant; six, formation of an 8 emergency NRC senior official oversight panel; seven, 9 formation of a national NRC oversight public panel; 10 eight, analysis of Entergy's reoccurring problems; 11 and, nine, evaluation of NRC Region III resources.

12 As the basis for this request, Mr.

13 Mulligan cited various plant events/issues, which can 14 be divided into the following categories: one, 15 equipment failures; two, documentation/design basis 16 concerns; three, radiation protection; four, records 17 falsification; and, five, reactor oversight process.

18 Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 19 date. On February 4th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan requested 20 an opportunity to address the Petition Review Board by 21 phone.

22 On March 2nd, 2011, Mr. Mulligan made an 23 additional request to speak to an NRC official 24 regarding the general state of conditions at Palisades 25 prior to addressing the PRB.

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11 1 On March 3rd, 2011, the PRB met to discuss 2 the request for immediate action only. The PRB denied 3 the request for immediate action because there were no 4 immediate safety concerns to the plant or to the 5 public health and safety of the public.

6 On March 4th, 2011, the Petition Review 7 Board's decision was conveyed to Mr. Mulligan. Mr.

8 Mulligan was also informed that the request to speak 9 to an NRC official was outside the 2.206 process and 10 he would have the opportunity during the phone call 11 with the PRB to address his concerns and provide 12 additional information.

13 On March 7th, 2011, Mr. Mulligan addressed 14 the PRB. And that is documented in ADAMS session 15 number ML110760687.

16 On March 21st, 2011, the PRB met 17 internally and made an initial recommendation that the 18 petition did not meet the criteria for review because 19 the petitioner failed to provide sufficient facts to 20 warrant further inquiry beyond what was already 21 inspected and documented in NRC inspection reports.

22 On March 24th, 2011, the petitioner was 23 informed by the PRB of the PRB's initial 24 recommendation and requested an additional opportunity 25 to address the PRB to provide additional information NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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12 1 in support of his petition request.

2 As a reminder for the phone participants, 3 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 4 this will help in the preparation of the meeting 5 transcript that will be made publicly available.

6 Thank you.

7 And at this point, Mr. Mulligan, I will 8 turn it over to you.

9 MR. MULLIGAN: Mr. Quay, when you retire, 10 you know, you could always join our side.

11 CHAIRMAN QUAY: I sure could.

12 MR. MULLIGAN: You know, a lot of what is 13 going on here is, you know, you know, through Congress 14 and all that sort of stuff, the agency, Entergy, and 15 the industry has gotten into this hyper promotional 16 stance where all you guys, you think you're a used car 17 salesman and you're basically throwing out, you know, 18 just positive information, the kind of information 19 that is promotional that just reflects under the parts 20 of the car and stuff like that.

21 And your real job considering our sacred 22 duties is to explain to us what is really going on 23 behind the scenes and explain this and that and you 24 give us an accurate picture and stuff like that. You 25 know, the public should be involved.

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13 1 But what you are really doing is you are 2 talking to yourselves. When you're talking to the 3 public, you're really talking to yourselves. You're 4 kind of adding on. You have another party you're 5 bringing this talk in. You have another party you're 6 bringing that's listening to what you're saying. And 7 you're more or less talking to yourselves. And I 8 think that is more important.

9 And you are being honest. You are talking 10 in the communication that's honest. This is a 11 positive. This is our negatives.

12 And, you know, like for the last weekend 13 and stuff, we've been seeing a lot of pretty pictures 14 with a lot of different plants, promotional types of 15 stuff. And they are pretty pictures.

16 And you would be well the whole industry 17 would be well, to -- I can give you some ugly 18 pictures. And that would be H. B. Robinson and Wolf 19 Creek Plant. The H. B. Robinson Plant was just an 20 assortment of different things. A cable failed. And 21 then they uncovered a whole bunch of other events --

22 I mean, other equipment people, procedures, a plant 23 simulation, computer simulation, and stuff like that.

24 You weren't smart enough to figure out 25 what needed to be corrected, and then you had another NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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14 1 event and stuff like that. Really, the failure isn't 2 really the H. B. Robinson Plant. It's NRC for not 3 being able to protect our nation and to protect 4 ourselves from these types of accidents.

5 These things are all around us, we feel.

6 There are a lot of good plants. There's a lot of 7 plants that are in trouble. And they're spinning in 8 a bad direction. And the NRC doesn't -- the real 9 reactor oversight process doesn't create that 10 incentive to change behavior. They go according to 11 the procedures.

12 But who is to say the procedures are right 13 or the policies are right? Something has got to be 14 higher than that. You know, there's got to be a sense 15 of doing good.

16 And so we -- you know, this promotional 17 business with the industry is a fanaticism. It's a 18 diction. And in these times, you have a paradigm 19 change. And promotionalism can really end up heading 20 south. People will end up seeing the game. And we'll 21 lose even more confidence on what is going on in the 22 industry.

23 We don't see -- most of my engineer 24 friends that are out there, you know, they got it 25 wrong. They talk about battery chargers and batteries NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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15 1 and seismic calculations and all that stuff. Well, 2 they're going at it backwards and stuff like that.

3 Well, we as a nation have seen as 4 organizations fail, they give signals of that for 5 years. When that accident happens, like the Gulf, you 6 find out afterwards that, you know, what wasn't 7 disclosed was sickening. You know, before the 8 accident, what they knew and what they knew they 9 didn't know. And stuff was sickening, absolutely 10 disgustingly sickening, what they knew about what was 11 going on, and stuff like that.

12 So components don't fail. Battery 13 chargers don't fail. Relays don't fail. It's people.

14 The organizations fail. And to a host of reasons, 15 through incentives, to talk one way, to think one way, 16 or disincentive, intimidation systems, subtle and 17 promotional and outright illegal distribution, those 18 are things that frame how people talk and stuff.

19 What facilitates and accommodates that is 20 barriers. You don't do things when the world can see 21 you. You only do those kinds of things when you are 22 hidden behind barriers. And people can't see it. And 23 the vet work is going on behind the scenes and stuff 24 like that.

25 They tell me with this power-safe NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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16 1 business, I ain't got proof. Well, you know, I could 2 say certainty, certainty, gaming. You know, I choose 3 to display this. I choose not to display that. I 4 choose to display this certainty, and I choose to hide 5 this uncertainty and the whole thing there.

6 You end up creating a picture that is 7 inaccurate when you do it for self-interest, 8 self-interested reasons and stuff. There has got to 9 be something bigger there, why we do things, bigger 10 than self-interest.

11 You know, we belong to a great nation.

12 And I think we don't think a lot of times that we --

13 we served a great nation. When we served a great 14 nation, we serve ourselves the best.

15 They had the business with this QA 16 business stuff. You've got managers that --

17 essentially managers in Palisades lied about 18 credentials, managers' credentials, and stuff like 19 that. The new stuff that's coming out they've just 20 been coming out as well.

21 You know, this really wasn't illegal.

22 Lying about credentials and stuff really wasn't 23 illegal because it was just in Entergy's procedures.

24 And the agency is powerless to make a stand on that, 25 these kind of falsifications and stuff. They're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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17 1 powerless because, you know, we've got to follow 2 procedures and our rules.

3 And there's really nothing in there that 4 says this is illegal. And so, you know, what you're 5 doing I think is you're trying to get through this 6 tech spec business. You're going to add 7 qualifications, requirements to tech specs. And so 8 that will get you.

9 You know, I find it amazing that you can't 10 get a plant -- you can't have the power to prevent 11 falsification and stuff.

12 You know, the QA/QC business, you 13 basically said, you know, it's a high management type 14 of inspection. And you say you find a lot of stuff.

15 You didn't find a lot of -- you know, most of it was 16 construction-related. And it pays to what it's really 17 about. And then you tell us that we haven't inspected 18 plants at the plant level. There just hasn't been 19 inspections with this QA/QC business.

20 I might make a case. You got the safety 21 release at Vermont Yankee, that questions QC/QA.

22 You've got Holtech issues with Entergy not being 23 able to maintain their quality of standards and stuff 24 like that. So, you know, you have to kind of -- this 25 thing is -- it sounds to me like it's a lot bigger NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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18 1 than construction-related activities.

2 And, as I talked about, you know, the NRC 3 has a habit if they know something is going on, they 4 ding them on the little stuff and then at Palisades or 5 Entergy or a number of these plants, they go behind 6 the scenes. And they correct all the stuff the public 7 can't see, can't see what's going on. And we get a 8 falsification of really what's going on there.

9 And so Entergy will come back later on and 10 say, "Well, we -- you know, at the plant level, we did 11 our own -- we caught our own thing. And we finally 12 figured out what is wrong with QA/QC. And we take 13 credit for it." And that is wrong.

14 That whole thing is a falsification. You 15 are creating a false image. And if you've got two 16 QA/QC problems, you should hunt that thing to the end 17 immediately and fix it and stuff like that.

18 So like right now, you live in uncertainty 19 as far as what is the QA status of a lot of these 20 plants. And, really, if you don't -- you know, that's 21 what I'm talking about with certainty uncertainty.

22 You live in a -- there is uncertainty there. And if 23 you don't got the proof that the plant is safe, you 24 know, you should shut it down.

25 I don't have the proof because the NRC NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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19 1 doesn't do the inspections. And they don't give me 2 the access to the plant and stuff.

3 And we talked about that. What was that 4 battery charger? You know, remember, I said battery 5 capacity and stuff is really not the issue here. You 6 know, that DD206, the battery charger, the relays and 7 battery charger, like the plant should have. I mean, 8 they should have followed their procedures, gotten 9 into a -- I don't know what it was -- a shutdown or 10 something, notified the NRC. And they didn't, I mean.

11 And there is really no punishment to that 12 as far as I see. Everybody plays in papier-mache. I 13 talked about papier-mache safety systems. And 14 papier-mache, you don't just file the paperwork and 15 nobody gives a shit because all you're throwing at 16 them is paperwork. And you don't make consequences.

17 How you see a tragic event, the Gulf of 18 Mexico or Davis-Besse, what happened is -- this is a 19 model. I'm trying to build a model here. People 20 corrupt language. You can see this corruption of 21 language a million miles away. You can see it years 22 before the accident.

23 And you corrupt language. You corrupt 24 communications in little ways. And everybody gets 25 away with it. And the next thing, you create this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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20 1 model thinking and stuff. And that's what leads to 2 all our problems in the nuclear industry.

3 I can remember I am trying to explain a 4 model here. And this is a good one. I'm up in 5 Vermont Yankee. And I'm up in training. And I've 6 been stripped from my shift. You know they're going 7 to get me. And they're getting ready to take my 8 license from me. I knew it was happening. I was 9 terrified. But I had to go through it.

10 And the year prior to that, I was having 11 -- I mean, it was unbelievable the stuff that was 12 going on. I had written a little -- I had to trust 13 the NRC. I wrote a letter to the governor. She kind 14 of balked. I got her in trouble. And the next thing 15 you know, we had them starting a huge investigation.

16 The investigation was over intermittent 17 short of the fuel pool pump and stuff. I just 18 couldn't take it anymore. And the procedure said, 19 "Precaution." The procedure said if that pump wasn't 20 operational in a month, you are required to shut down.

21 And you create those penalties there. If 22 it's not there, if they don't have that pump, if they 23 don't have a spare pump, you've got create a 24 punishment. You just can't keep facilitating this, 25 saying, "We've got a zillion backup systems. Nothing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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21 1 ever matters." You create a punishment there.

2 You shut them down. And then everybody 3 says, "Oh, no. Vermont Yankee got shut down" or 4 somebody else "got shut down." And then everybody 5 starts behaving and you don't have all the 6 paper-mache systems and stuff like that.

7 So you know what Vermont Yankee was doing?

8 You know, you had to have two pumps or be shut down in 9 a month. They didn't have a repair motor. And they 10 had to make that repair motor. They had to build that 11 motor from scratch, safety-grade motor from scratch.

12 They initially tagged the breaker and the 13 switch because they didn't want anybody using that 14 motor and stuff. And we knew that. You know, I knew 15 that and stuff. And a month goes by. And nobody says 16 anything. A few months go by. And NRC has an issue 17 with it, with the tag on the breaker, on the switch.

18 And then they talk about it. And the NRC gets them to 19 put a precaution tag on there and stuff like that.

20 So, you know, then people start saying, 21 "Well, what do you base that on? What engineering do 22 you base that on?" Me? You've got to have proof. At 23 least that shows up. You've got to have proof. You 24 know, that's what we live and breathe by and stuff.

25 And so they didn't have it and stuff like that.

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22 1 And so months go by and stuff. And I'm 2 getting fed up with all this stuff. They didn't have 3 -- you know, they had to get repaired. They had to 4 build a new motor. It took a long time and stuff like 5 that. And they weren't dealing with that requirement 6 of being shut down in 30 days and stuff.

7 So we're at a month and stuff. And I'm 8 getting sick and tired of it. And I knew the NRC was 9 powerless. And I was trying to play the NRC against 10 the state. And so I wrote a letter to the governor.

11 And I got her in a -- she kind of sat on it. And I 12 got her into trouble. And the investigation ensued.

13 You know, on that investigation with 14 Vermont, we had the memorandum of understanding. In 15 other words, the state couldn't go where they pleased 16 in the plant to look at the documents that they needed 17 and stuff like that. Vermont Yankee would prevent 18 them from doing it. And through all of this 19 networking, we got a memorandum of understanding.

20 We had troubles with the emergency diesel 21 generators everybody here is aware at Calvert Cliffs 22 business recently with leaking roofs. Well, we had 23 leaking roofs above the diesel generators for years 24 and came in with big puddles.

25 My sense because I didn't engage it, we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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23 1 lost power sense and stuff. And so I made a deal 2 that, you know, before I left there, I was going to 3 fix that because I know my time was coming to an end 4 and stuff.

5 So, you know, we had rainstorms and more 6 puddles and water leaking down on the outlet breaker 7 and the panels. You know it was ugly and stuff.

8 And it took me a number of, six, months.

9 The outcome and all that business was to -- was the 10 roofs were coming into age, into time, you know, and 11 stuff. And they had to replace all the roofs. I 12 mean, that's what it was all about, took us six months 13 to figure it out and stuff.

14 So, again, the people are dead. The 15 brains are dead more or less. They've been turned on 16 for some reason. People's minds are turned off for a 17 number of different incentives and stuff like that.

18 We talked. I told her. I told the 19 governor. I says, "You're going to have a lot of --

20 you're going to have a simple plant trip. It's going 21 to turn into being really ugly. And you're going to 22 have a lot of equipment. And we're going to get 23 confused." I mean, that's what we're facing and stuff 24 like that.

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24 1 these things a year, two years away. Everybody plays 2 games. The NRC plays certainty certainty games. I'm 3 here to tell you. I'm here to testify you can see 4 these years ahead of time. They usually revolve 5 around budget issues.

6 Budgets are so difficult to -- you know, 7 restrictions or reductions or new needs show up and 8 you don't get the money and stuff. Those are so 9 difficult to manage on these big organizations. You 10 know, they typically come back to, say, a five percent 11 reduction and stuff. And who gives -- you know, they 12 don't care what that does to the people's minds. And 13 not very many people get it right and stuff.

14 So I'm sitting up there in training. And 15 I know it's bleak. And, all of a sudden, I get a call 16 from the plant. And they tell me, "Mike, would you 17 work some overtime?"

18 And so I says, "Sure. What's going on?"

19 They didn't really want me at the plant at that point.

20 It was in such a bleak condition.

21 And they said, "We had an accident. And 22 we need you down here."

23 So I came down here. And what happened 24 was they had a loss of off-site power in 1992 and 25 stuff. What they were doing was they were changing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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25 1 the batteries out in the switch gear -- the shift yard 2 and taking shortcuts, you know. They got away with 3 shortcuts for years and stuff like that.

4 And shortcuts are difficult stuff because 5 they give so much positive incentives when you take 6 them. And it's once every 50 times that you do it 7 that you really pay the price.

8 And so they were replacing batteries.

9 They replaced one battery. They had two independent 10 sides. They had one battery out. They had the two 11 sides connected on one charger and one battery. And 12 the charger that was -- the remaining charger, can you 13 believe that? Two safety sides connected together, 14 safety sides of all the electronics out in the 15 switchyard and stuff. And it had two batteries and 16 one charger, and the charger was defective. They had 17 diodes out. It was half broken, you know, and stuff.

18 I believe when they opened the breaker, 19 when they closed the breaker connecting two batteries 20 together and stuff, they had a big voltage surge and 21 knocked out a bunch of components at Vermont Yankee in 22 the switchyard. And that's how we got our loss of 23 off-site power.

24 It lasted for -- the Pettitbone, that 25 stupid crane, wasn't on site. We had to wait a long NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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26 1 time for the crane to come so that we could backfeed 2 the plant from the shift yard. It was 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> 3 without any electricity at, outside electricity at, 4 Vermont Yankee.

5 The employees told me. They said it was 6 like a movie. "We thought we was in a movie when this 7 was happening."

8 The diesel generators had flow problems.

9 We had flow problems with water. The design accident 10 for the diesel generators is one diesel generator 11 fails, the other diesel generator still works. And so 12 the assumption is there is only one diesel generator 13 working.

14 So the design assumption the engineers, 15 the cheapskate engineers, you know, they say, "Well, 16 why do we have to build two diesel generators? It's 17 supposed to be independent."

18 So the design engineers said, "We're going 19 to just -- we only need one discharge. We can route 20 the two service water discharges for the diesel 21 generators into one pipe. And that's good enough 22 because, you know, we're only going to have one diesel 23 generator when it ends" and stuff.

24 So then they had a valve at the end of 25 this one discharge line, service water discharge line.

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27 1 And we had radiation detector problems. It wasn't 2 getting enough service water. The NRC was getting on 3 our case all the time.

4 We were losing the service water. It 5 wasn't getting enough pressure. And the service water 6 rad monitor was going inop and stuff. And the NRC 7 drives the -- finally had enough.

8 So we had one operator say, "Well, I know 9 what I'll do. That one isolation, that one manual 10 valve that connects the two diesel generators, well, 11 we'll throttle it down. And we'll get the -- we'll 12 bring the pressure up" and stuff like that. So that's 13 what he did. He said, "The problem is with the 14 service water rad monitor."

15 Of course, when the diesel generators --

16 when the two diesel generators start and stuff like 17 that and you have that excess service water load, it 18 was throttled. And it drove during the loss of 19 off-site. It drove the plant, the discharge pressure, 20 high. And it pegged up the meters, the flow meters, 21 of the service water flow to the diesel generators.

22 So, you know, for a couple of minutes 23 there, it looked pretty God damn bleak in the control 24 room. I wasn't there, but I had buddies that told me 25 about it. You know, they were in half light. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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28 1 diesel generators had started up. They had trouble 2 with RCIC.

3 And, for a couple of minutes, they didn't 4 know what the hell was wrong with the diesel 5 generators other than they didn't have -- they thought 6 service water pressure was pegged high. And the flows 7 were -- I don't know. I think they were low or high.

8 And it took two or three minutes for 9 everybody to figure -- you know, looking at the RTDs, 10 RTEs, whatever they're called, you know, that they 11 weren't going high before we figured out that, oh, 12 they've got enough service water flow. We didn't 13 know, you know, how much service water flows, how much 14 or anything like that.

15 But those two minutes, everybody realized 16 that how close they were, you know, because what was 17 -- you know, if they ever -- they got a couple of high 18 alarms on the motor but not high enough to threaten 19 the operation of it and stuff like that, which you 20 couldn't see what the flow was. And, you know, as 21 operators, we could imagine how close we were to --

22 without having any diesel generators, we were damn 23 close.

24 You know, they, the NRC and the industry, 25 they played around because they knew I was talking to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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29 1 outsiders, the media, and all that sort of stuff.

2 Politicians hate me because I drive them 3 into being involved with a plant like Vermont Yankee.

4 They want to be stupid and outside and stuff.

5 During those, you know, two critical 6 minutes, two or three critical minutes, five minutes, 7 where nobody knew they had enough diesel generator 8 flow, they heard this -- they heard these humongous 9 booms in the control room and stuff.

10 Nobody could -- you know, that's at the 11 part where right at the beginning of an accident, 12 where you don't know what's going on and you hear this 13 repetitive boom, boom, boom. They finally figured out 14 it was coming from the main condenser area.

15 And they had guys go down there. And they 16 are looking around trying to figure out what was the 17 noise. I think it was leaking main feedwater check 18 valves that was causing this. And then that water was 19 building up. Probably the feedwater feeders were 20 filled with hot water. And I don't -- some check 21 valve somewhere was making all this noise.

22 And the operator said he never -- he 23 couldn't believe it. They bled the feedwater system.

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30 1 area. He says he has -- the noise was so loud, and it 2 was hurting his ears, never seen anything like it. He 3 said he -- the noise was hurting his chest it was so 4 loud and stuff.

5 And so, I mean, that's my story of how I 6 -- I mean, I had those feelings when I was -- when 7 this whole thing started. I says, "You know, if it 8 goes south, how can I live with myself? If the plant 9 has a big problem and stuff and I've always" -- and 10 that has never left me. You know, what happens if I 11 have special knowledge and something goes wrong at 12 Vermont Yankee or it goes -- I have special knowledge 13 or if I have -- something goes wrong with the NRC or 14 another plant. And can I live with myself if we have 15 a Fukushima or a single plant or something? Can I 16 live with myself if it happens? And I don't think I 17 could. I never could, you know.

18 I destroyed my career. It's left residual 19 issues, emotional issues, with me. I've damaged my 20 children as far as not -- you know, I don't have the 21 credentials anymore and all that sort of stuff.

22 You know, I did that knowing that, you 23 know, down deep I said to myself, if something bad 24 happens, can I live with myself? Well, I'm an idiot, 25 you know. If an event happens and stuff, will I blame NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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31 1 myself? And I think I will.

2 And, you know, it's a choice who you hurt.

3 You hurt your family or you hurt, you know, a lot of 4 other people. So that's my story. As far as how 5 organizations, go numb for some reason, 6 multi-organizations.

7 The employee, the utility, a plant, a 8 Palisades miscommunication, you know, this inaccurate, 9 distorted communication, everybody gets the wrong 10 impression. Nobody is talking honestly anymore and 11 painfully and stuff, the agency and stuff.

12 You know, we have all seen it across the 13 nation where it's not really the components that fail, 14 although they do. It's the people. It's the people 15 and the little things they do that cause these things 16 and stuff. Don't deal with our problems, the 17 incentives, disincentives, and stuff.

18 So that's my story as far as how a plant 19 can go really bad. And I thank you for this 20 opportunity to speak with you. Thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. At this time does 22 the staff here at headquarters have any questions for 23 Mr. Mulligan?

24 (No response.)

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32 1 line. Do you have any questions?

2 MR. GOEL: No. This is Vijay Goel. I 3 have no questions.

4 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. Does the licensee 5 have any questions?

6 MR. DAVIS: No. This is Terry Davis. I 7 have no questions.

8 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. Thank you.

9 Before I conclude the meeting, members of 10 the public may provide comments regarding the petition 11 and may ask questions about the 2.206 petition 12 process. However, as stated at the opening, the 13 purpose of this meeting is not to provide an 14 opportunity for the petitioner or the public to 15 question or examine the Petition Review Board 16 regarding the merits of the petition request.

17 Has any member of the public joined the 18 phone call that wants to make a comment?

19 (No response.)

20 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Hearing none, Mr.

21 Mulligan, thank you for taking time to provide the NRC 22 staff with clarifying information on the petition you 23 have submitted.

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33 1 transcript?

2 THE REPORTER: This is the Court Reporter.

3 I have no questions. Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN QUAY: Okay. Thank you. Thank 5 you very much. With that, this meeting is concluded.

6 And we will be terminating the phone connection.

7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 8 concluded at 9:43 p.m.)

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