ML20151S263
| ML20151S263 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Fermi  |
| Issue date: | 09/17/1986 |
| From: | ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20151N259 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-88-227 NUDOCS 8808150127 | |
| Download: ML20151S263 (43) | |
Text
'
OR/qq UhllED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW O
LOCATION:
DETROIT, MICHIGAN PAGES:
1 42 DATE:
WEDNESDAY, SEP'.'SMBER 17, 1986 AG-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
444hrYt Ystmt M
3:.86-006 msmgm
.c.2 m mer (202) 347-3700 G808150127 000630 WE b8-227 PDR
..NADO N KO N M l
l i
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
In the Matter of:
4 The Interview of 5
CINDY CODY 6
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _/
7 The Interview of CINDY CODY, taken 8
pursuant to Notice by me, Deborah J. Nash, certified Shorthand 9
Reporter and Notary Public, in and for the County of Wayne, 10 State of Michigan, at 2000 Second Avenue, Detroit, Michigan, 11 on Wednesday, September 17, 1986.
12 APPEARANCES:
13 UNITED STATES REGULATORY COMMISSION 34 Office of Investigations Field Office:
Region III is 799 Roosevelt Road Glen Ellyn, Illinois 60137 (By Richard C. Karmar,tEsq. and j
is Terry J. Madeda', Esq.)
I 17 e
Appearing n behalf of l
18 Nuclear Regulatory Commission ig.
SHAW, PITTMAN, POTIS & TROWBRIDGE 1
1800 M Street, N.W.
l 7,3 Washington, D.C. 20036 (By J. Patrick Rickey, Esq.)
21 g
Appearing on behalf of Detroit Edison i
22 and Cindy Cody 5
23 24 25 l
2 1
APPEARANCES:
(Continued) 2 JOHN H. FLYNN, Esq.
Senior Attorney 3
2000 Second Avenue Detroit, Michigan 48226 4
Appearing on behalf of Detroit Edison 6
7 8
9 1
10 11 12 l
13 14 15 i
16 3
3 17 2
18 ij 19 ir 20 21 2
22 23 24 25
3 I
N D
E X
2 WITNESS 3
PAGE CINDY CODY 4
Examination by Mr. Kazmar 5
Examination by Mr. Madeda 27 Examination by Mr. Hickey 32 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 j
16 4
3 17 s
Vi 18 ij 19 ir 20 21 8
Y 22 23 24 25 l
4 1
Detroit, Michigan
\\
2 Wednesday, September 17, 1986 3
4 MR. KAZMAR:
For the record, this is S
the Interview of Cindy Cody who is employed by Detroit 6
. Edison Company.
The location of this interview is 7
Detroit Edison Plaza, Detroit, Michigan.
a Present at this interview are 9
Cindy Cody and John Flynn a Detroit Edison Attorney and 10 Mr. Patrick Hickey, an attorney for Shaw, Pittman, Potts 11 and Throwbridge.
12 Present for the NRC are Terry Madeda 13 an NRC inspector, and Richard Kazmar an investigator.
14 MR. HICKEY:
Let me correct one thing.
ts I'm from the law firm of Shaw, Pittman, Potts and j
Trowbridge.
And I'm appearing here on behalf of the 16
{
company and the witness Mrs. Cody.
17 1
18 MR. KAZMAR:
The subject matter i
{
19 of this interview concerns the use of the CEO system, Ir 20 and handling safeguard information.
21 Ms. Cody, please stand and raise your a-22 g
right hand.
23 CINDY C 0 D Y, 24 having been first duly sworn as a witness herein, was 25 examined and testified as follows:
5 1
EXAMINATION 2
BY MR. KAZMAR:
3 Q
Cindy, what is your current position with Detroit Edison?
4 A
I'm a secretary at Nuclear Security Fermi II for the 1
5 Detroit Edison.
6 Q
And what is your position in approximately of September 7
1985 through December of 19857 8
A In September of 1985, I went over to the group Nuclear 9
Security, and I worked as a secretary for Mike Kandella, 10 Background Investigations, GTOC.
And in October of 1985, i
i 11 I was reassigned and worked for Wayne Hastings, the 12 Directer of Nuclear Security.
13 Q
Were you his secretary at that time?
(
14 A
In October.
15 Q
Okay.
i 16 In June of this year, to be exace, 17 June 24 of 1986, I interviewed you and you provided me Vi 18 with a signed statement, tj 19 And in that statament, you said that i
I 20 some time in the later part of October 1985, or early 21 November, 1985, Mr. Wayne Hastings who was the Director I
{
of Nuclear Security at that time, dictated a memo toyou, 22 23 is that correct?
24 A
That's correct.
25 Q
And when~he dictated that memo to you, did you use a
1 typewriter, or did you use the electronic system, 2
specifically, the comprehensive electronic office?
3 A
He dictated it and put the memorandum directly in the d
CEO.
5 Q
Let me show you a document, it's title is Document 6
Header.It's dated September 30, 1985.
I want to show 7
you this as an example.
8 And my question is at the time that 9
memo was dictated to you, did you prepare a document 10 header something similar.co. the one I'm showing you?
11 A
Okay.
No, here we go into computer language.
12 A document header is created by the 13 computer itself.
It's automatic.
And the user has 14 an option of printing your document headers.
You have 15 the option of doing it at any time you want, or my system 16 has been set up in a profile, do you wish to print a
)
l 17 document header, and mine is set up for no.
I 1
18 Q
So, the document that Mr. Hastings dictated to you, just sj 19 so we're all talking about the same document.
I'm ii 20 specifically talking about the one that was the five 21 day lett3r, that was rapposed to be sent to the NRC.
2 22 g
Okay.
Referring to that document, 23
+
was a document header prepared to the best of your 24 recollection?
2s A
It's automatic.
It's done on the computer.
Was it ever
4 1
7 printed?
2 Q
Was it ever, printed?
3 A
No.
4 Q
Okay.
5 Since the document header for the 6
document that we're talking about, the one that was 7
dictated by Mr. Hastings, 1
I notice on the sample that I 8
gave you, it has a section here for mail too 9
, did you list any people when you prepared -- when that d 10 ocument was dictated to you, that memorandum?
11 A
No.
And on this letter let me look at this one mo 12 re time.
The computer has put these names on.
13 When this example, when Joe Korte would hav 14 e typed documents, and he can have all of his header 15 s printed out, okay.
He did -- okay, the only thing that Joe Kort j
16 physically would hava put on this piece of paper e
I 17
, when he created his documents, CEO tranattitting safeguard ii is s, that would be the subject that he gave the docum sj 18 ent itself.
i In a summary, he would have typed i
20 and attached his report on the available CEO 21 The computer has automatically pulled document dra 2
{
22 wer it was, this is by computer, not Joe.
The document type, the 23 drawer or the folder, the last modified by thi 24 s is automatic, and the mail to these portions 25 the computer.
It's done on e
7 1
printed?
l 2
Q Was it ever, printed?
l 3
A No.
4 Q
Okay.
ll 1
1 5
i Since the document header for the i
l l
document that we're talking about, the one that was 6
dictated by Mr. Hastings, I notice on the Sample thr-.I 7
it has a section hcre for mail too, did you e
gave you, 9
list any people when you prepared -- when that document 10 was dictated to you, that memorandum?
11 A
No.
And on thic letter let me look at this one more time.
12 The computer has put these names on.
13 l
When this example, when Joe Korte would have typed 14 documents, and he can have all of his headers printed out, O
15 okay.
He did -- okay, the only thing that Joe Kort e 16 physically would have put on this piece of paper, when he 17 created his documents, CEO transmitting safeguards, that n
t
[
would be the subject that he gave the document itself.
i 18 E
h h
In a su= mary, he would have typed j
19 i
i!
t 20 and attached his report on the available CEO.
The 21 computer has automatically pulled document drawer it was, 2
a lj this is by computer, not Joe.
The document type, the l
22 j
23 H drawer or the folder, the last modified by this is Ii 24 J automatic, and the mail to these portions.
It's done on t-25 ~
the ccmputer.
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i Q
Let me ask you this, you're saying that the memorandum 2
document header was never printed?
3 A
- Right, d
Q What I'm asking you then is if you had what would have 5
came out not in che section mailed out in the instance 6
of this memorandum we're talking about?
7 A
1 don't believe this document was mailed over CEO.
8 Q
In other words, the memorandum that we're talking in 9
regards to that five day letter,that document no document 10 header was ever created?
11 A
Right.
That would hava been at my option, my CEO was 12 set up to say no. If.' wanted a document header, I would 13 have specifically had to ask for it.
t 14 Q
So, you're saying you did not request a document header?
15 A
No.
I 16 MR. MADEDA:
Would there have been i
17 any specific reason why you would not have7
,ii is THE WITNESS:
I never' keep -- you ij 19 would want a document header if you used, that would Ir 20 help in a filing system.
1 21 MR. MADEDA:
This was not to be filed f
22 then?
23 THE WITNESS:
The headers?
24 MR. MADEDA:
Well, as I understood, 25 that you had the option of whether to do it or not, and
9 l'
that you would normally make one up,1f you were going 2
to file it?
3 THE WITNESS:
No, if you use,1f 4
you have a filing system, or you use those as part of 5
your filing system.
I have never the three years I have 6
had the CEO, I have never done any tracking with document 7
he'aders.
Most people, I would say, most people don't 8
use C cument headers.
9 MR.MADEDA:
Well, it would be --
10 THE WITNESS:
Mr. Pipis might know 11 more on that.
12 MR. MADEDA:
Well, it would have been 13 very unusual for you to have used the document header 14 or any of your entries into the CE0?
15 A
Any, right.
I 16 MR. HICKEY:
Could I ask one a
17 g
question.
18 MR. KAZMAR-Sure.
ij 18 MR. HICKEY:
Am I correct that when I
t 20 you want to transmit the document electronically on the 21 CEO, you need to fill in this mailed to?
l 22 A
No, to mail a document on the CEO, the document headera 23 has nothing to do with it.
24 Okay, when youprint a document, a
25 lot of reasons, I would say most are clerical, especially.
l.
10 1
In a question for Pipis would be it might be defaulted, 2
there could be a default that you don't want your header 3
to print.
What it does usually, is when everybody is 4
typing work in the office together, another sheet comes 5
off the printer.
And once that's printed, there was.a 6
time and probably when I worked in Information Systems, 7'
when I had, and I found out that I didn't have to. I 8
was standing at the printer, and the headers comes off 8
and it goes into the wastebasket.
And:.it's an option I 10 never --
11 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
Do your knowledge.about the 12 CEO system, you're typing in this memorandum on a 13 certain. terminal in Mr. Hastings' office?
14 A
Right.
15 Q
To your knowledge, would anybody at any other terminal l
either at the site, or downtown, would they have 16 l
simultaneous access to what you're inputting into that i
18 system?
e 8j 18 A
Okay.
Okay.
Now we're talking on how s,ecure the system
!r 20 1,7 21 Q
Well, I'm just asking you how to your knowledge, if you 2
{
were typing in and you were entering this document, to 22 23 your knowledge could somebody at another terminal 24 have gained access to your input simultaneously?
25 If so, how would they do it to your
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11 1
knowledge?
2 A
Okay.
This could be also verified by John Pipis.
3 And the computer section, there are 4
superusers, that are identified on sight.
And they 5
could be used for various I mean' troubleshooting, 6
I mean if I was in a wreck and I Or whatever, and they 7
needed to get access.
So, at that time, there was a
superusers.
8 Q
That could have, to your knowledge, could have gained 10 access at the time it was being entered?
11 A
After it was on the terminal, I'm sure they could have 12 access.
While it's going in and it's a new document, I 13 don't know if it's in the system as far as --
14 Q
Let me ask you something else.
15 We've talked to several other i
16 individuals with regard to this matter.
And a couple of
[
17 them related to me that when Mr. Hastings was cautioned ii 18 about the use of the CEO in this instance because of the 5j 18 safeguard contents,he stated that he had taken certain tr 20 precautions, and one of them supposedly was a change of 21 code.
l At the time you were entering this 22
)
23 memorandum, did Mr. Hastings say to you, change some 24 codes, or did he relate to you to do somethtpg different 25 to secure the memorandum /
12 1
A Okay.
With my discussion with Mr. Hastings, I don't 2
recall the changing of pass words in that discussion.
3 Pass words have been changed, d
Q But, in this instance, was it changed?
5 A
I don't recall it.
I don't recall.
6 Q
At the time you were entering the contents of that 7
memorandu:n, did you know it was safeguard information?
8 A
I can't identify the exact time when I became aware of 9
when it was safeguards.
Mr. Hastings and I did have a 10 discussion.
11 Q
At some point in time?
)
l 12 A
I can narrow it down to, you know, like within the three 13 days.;
14 Q
Are you saying that in the content,s of the memorandum, 15 it was in the computer for three days?
l 16 A
I don't know, I know it wasn't on there longer than that, 1
j Q
Guessing, was it more than a day?
17 9
1 18 A
I would -- a guessing would be like 36 hours4.166667e-4 days <br />0.01 hours <br />5.952381e-5 weeks <br />1.3698e-5 months <br />, a day and a 19 half.
Another -- what was I going to say?
a I
20 MR. MADEDA:
What can you recall about 21 those specific discussions with Mr. Hastings?
{
MR. HICKEY:
Maybe she ought to 22 23 finish the answnr to the last question.
24 THE WITNESS:
I was going to say 25 something then I lost it.
13 l'
MR. MADEDA:
I thought you were done.
2 THE WITNESS:
I kind of lost it.
3 MR. KAZMAR:
We'll continue, then 4
hopefully you will remember.
5 MR. MADEDA:
Do you recall any of 6
those discussions with Mr. Hastings?
7 THE WITNESS:
I remember having a e
discussion with Mr.Hastings.
Timewise, as far as -- this 9
will fold into both questions.
10 I was sitting at his CEO, technically 11 what we call his chair, and putting a document, and he's 12 reading, or talking over my shoulder and inputting the 13 document.
14 I do remember having a discussion 15 with Mr. Hastings.
And as I recall, I~was on the other i
16 side of his desk, we were talking.
I cannot pinpoint
[
17 exactly -- okay, I know what I was going to say before.
ii 18 As far as when the discussion was, l
sj 19 the timewise, I do and have stated before that while the ai 20 information was CEO, there was a point in time, you know, 21 that there were safeguards on the CEO.
1 2j 22 And our discussion which would have 23 been, I would say it would have been. if we have safeguards 24 onthe CEO, it was before it was de'eted, it was at least 25 within 36 hours4.166667e-4 days <br />0.01 hours <br />5.952381e-5 weeks <br />1.3698e-5 months <br />, while it's on previous.
I can't identify
i 14 the exact time that we discussed the safeguard infomation 2
on the'CEO.
It was going to be left to be edited for 3
changes after it was -- and he may not have explained, but 4
I know it goes out for review, and all five day reports 5
get marked up and changed and everything.
And then it 6
was going to be deleted from the SCCount.
7 Q
(BY Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
Line by line?
e A
And then to my recollection, I was the one that brought 8
up the line by line you know, we can do it, then rather i
i 10 just dump -- we're going to dump the document into the 11 CEO wastebasket.
We were going to delete the document 12 and throw an empty document into the CEO wastebasket.
13 Q
When you completed the preparation of that document, i
t 14 did you access it to anybody?
15 MR. HICKEY:
Did,you what?
l Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
Did you access it to anybody?
16
{
u Am I correct, it's my understanding i;
18 when you created a document, you have an option to access sj 18 or mail it to four different individuals, am I correct 8
r 20 in that?
21 A
To the best of my knowledge as I recall it, it was not 22 g
mailed, it would have been printed and hardcopied, 23 reviewed by others.
24 Q
Okay.
2s When you say the reason that you used
15.
1 the CEO was to put editing, who edited it?
2 A
Oh, that would have been -~ any changed to the document, 3
would have been done by me.
4 Q
What I'm getting at is, when you say "editing", it wasn't 5
.somebody at another location by using a CEO, you can 6
transmit it right to the Gereen, and they can edit and 7
you get the revisions back?
8 A
No, it wes changes for me.
When the document was input, 9
Wayne would dictate,on several occasions. he would dictate 10 to me instead of using shorthand.
11 Q
So, all editing was cone at the terminal in Mr.Hastings' 12 offte,7 13 A
My terminal at my desk.
14 Q
To your knowledge --
15 A
To the best of my knowledge, all editing was done.
16 Q
There was no other editing or corrections made at another j
17 terminal and transferred to the one that you were at?
ii 18 A
To my knowledge, I do not recall that ever.
I feel'it sj 19 would have been me.
Ir 20 MR MADEDA:
The hardcopies that 21 you mentioned that were transmitted to a printer, would
{
those have all been to the printers and the safeguards 22 23 there, or the security at the GTOC7 a
24 A
Yes.
25 MR MADEDA:
You mentioned you had a 1
I 16 i
discussion.with Mr. Hastings, as far as your recollection 2
as a exact time was undetermined what he basically said.
3 You said that there was safeguards t
4 information, did you make that aware to Mr. Hastings?
s THE WITNESS:
I believe he made me 6
aware of them.
7 MR. MADEDA:'
He told you it was a
safeguard infonnation?
9 THE WITNESS:
And it was going to be 10 left there.
As far as I can recall, he identified it 11 to me.
12 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
13 THE WITNESS:
We were going to edit 14 it and and of deleting it. He had spokan in the same 15 conversation that we had, the previous conversation with j
the NRC.
And I recall, I don't want to say for sure, 18 l
but I believe it was Gary Pirtle.
And it didn't detail 1i 18 anything.
g r
j 18 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
Did you raise an objection i
r 20 at that time as to why are we using this CEO when this l
21 is, in fact, a safeguard information?
?
{
A No, it was -- the way I interpreted his discussion and 22 23 when he mentioned the NRC, to me I felt it was like, 24 you know, he was telling me that.
It didn't strike me j
25 unusual because of his conversation.
9 4
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Q So, are you saying the fact that he related to you that 2
he had discussed it with Mr. Pirtle that he had gotten 3
some kind of dispensation being able to use it?
4 A
I assumed.
5 Q
That was your assumption at the time?
6 A
Yes.
7 Q
You say that the doc *ument remained in the CEO for 8
approximately 36 hours4.166667e-4 days <br />0.01 hours <br />5.952381e-5 weeks <br />1.3698e-5 months <br /> or so?
9 MR. HICKEY:
I think she said more 10 than 36 hours4.166667e-4 days <br />0.01 hours <br />5.952381e-5 weeks <br />1.3698e-5 months <br />.
11 MR. MADEDA:
Not more than three 12 days, not less than 36 hours4.166667e-4 days <br />0.01 hours <br />5.952381e-5 weeks <br />1.3698e-5 months <br />.
13 THE WITNESS:
Probably, I don't have i
14 a tbne if it was morning, or the afternoon, or overnight.
15 MR. MADEDA:
There was no possible 16 way of determining that time frame, since the document I
17 bas been pulled out and destroyed.
There's nothing Ti is in a memory bank that would determine the exact period e
5j 19 of time that document was in, is there for just this a
I 20 point in time?
21 THE WITNESS:
I'm not aware.
t i
i 22 MR.MADEDA:
To your knowledge?
23 THE WITNESS:
No.
That wou?.d be a 24 computer.
25 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
To your knowledge --
18 1
A That there could be a backup, and I don't understand 2
backup.
1 3
Q To your knowledge, the contents of that document, did it 4
go to the wastebasket in that timeframe, was it in the 5
system where it was in the so-called wastabasket?
6 A
Gkay.
Yes, it was in a wastabasket.
I'll give you an 7
example. Are you familiar with it?
8 Q
Keep going, and I'll let you know.
9 A
Okay.
I have a document,okay.
And I'm done with it and 10 it's determined to be deleted from the system.
I bring 11 the document up on the screen and I hit erase on the 12 line and it deletes the document.
13 So, at that point, if I get out of the i
14 document and I went back into it, I brought it up on the ts screen again, it would give me a title of the document l
up on the header of my screen.
And I'd look at it and 16 3
17 there was nothing in the document, okay.
1 18 So, I get back out of the document tj 19 and I hit a delete key, and it says, are you sure you i
Ir 20 want to delete this, and I answ sc yes.
And it goes away 21 f: om your index on CEO, and I cannot bring that document 2
{
up through my filing.
22 23 I can go back to the filing system 24 and push a five, which is the wastebasket, and I can 2s recall this document saying.
19 For example, we had a memo going, 2
and I deleted it and somebody said, "Oh, Cindy, we found
)
3 out we want to add this to it."
The wastebasket is the l
4 storage place into the janitor run, which is still 5
computer, we're not talking people.
So I can restore on a
this safeguard issue, it's in the wastebasket now.
I 7
'can go and restore this document, to bring it back to a
where I can work on it again.
E en I did, it's an 9
empty document.
i 10 Q
So, what happened in this particular instance?
11 A
This is what happened.
12 Q
Okay.
I 13 A
So, it's in the wastebasket until maybe a Monday night, i
14 or whatever days of the week we're talking.
And then 15 I had the ability to restore the document, which appeared, 16 which is empty, which has no words.
Until the janitors 17 are run on Sunday or Monday night.
And then it's gone Vi is from my system, I can't restore the empty document.
I l'
i Q
And this particular instance, when was the janitor I
t 20 run ev. this particular memorandum?
I 21 A
That would be documented with computer services, but I
{
22 would probably say Sunday or Monday night.
23 Q
So, you're saying --
24 A
That should be traceable.
2s Q
Wen was the memo dictated to you approximately?
I'm
- _. _ _ _ ~ _
20 l'
trying to get a time frame if you can recall?
2 A
I would assume after viewing the document, it has the 3
date of November 7th, I believe so.
I would have to guess 4
like early the 6th of November, I'd know what date.
5 Q
Do you recall what day of the week it was that the 6
document was created, it was initially entered into the
- 7 CEO?
8 A
No, I can't give youa date at all.
I could give a date 9
on the drywell incident because there's so many going on.
10 MR. HICKEY:
If I can interrupt for 11 a minute, and maybe I can be helpful and explain to you 12 a few things that we have learned.
13 November 7, 1985, I'm looking at a 14 calendar, it was a Thursday.
There was a file copy 15 of the transmittal letter, you probably have these 16 already. Frou Mr. Leonard, to the NRC stating the five t
l 17 day report, it's dated November 7th.
I believe the i
1a report went out the evening of November 7th, you've 5j 19 probably received it stamped, fr 20 MR. KAZMAR:
It was probably 21 created the day before.
3
[
tGt. HICKEY:
Wait a minute.
I'll tell 22 23 you something more.
24 There is a draft of the report that's 25 dated November 7th, that has Wayne Hastings' initials
21 1
at the end of it, or maybe one of his names, one or the 2
other.
But it's dated November 7th.
3 And my belief from those documents, 4
is that it was draf ted and printed some time during the 5
day around the 7th, get into final form on the 7th.
It 6
was mailed late in the day on the 7th.
7 THE WITNESS:
What day of the week 8
was that?
9 MR. HICKEY:
This was Thursday.
10 I ask Ms. Cody whether she recalls 11 staying to delete it out of the system on the evening of 12 the 7th.
She said she doesn't remember doing that in the 13 evening.
She probably did it the next morning, which 14 would have been the morning of Friday the 8th, 15 t
So, that could be less than 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />, j
depending on when it got in on the day of the 7th.
And 16 i
17 we don't have a way that I'm aware of to put a time on ii 18 November 7th. But, presumably during the normal working ij 19 day, when it was first put into the CEO.
8 I
20 We also don't have a time when it was 21 deleted.
But, what_Mrs. Cody indicates, that it was
?
z 22 g
deleted the evening of the 7th.
23 MR. KAZMAR:
But, you just stated that 24 you normally do it on a Monday.
25 THE WITNESS:
No, no, no, that is not
~
22 I
what I mean.
Also, the wastebasket, the janitor, it's 2
totally automatically security.
That's computer 3
service's responsibility.
I can delete something to the 4
wastebasket.
5 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar. continuing):
What you did in this 6
instance?
7 A
Right.
And the only thing that I can do is restore it 8
or do it.
And, if I don't do anything with it, computer 9
service.s takes care of it.
1 10 Q
How do computer services know when to empty the 11 wastebasket?
1 12 A
They always have to clean a minimal weekly, because of the 13 system.
t 14 Q
If you don't want something cleaned, you have to notify 15 them?
16 A
No, you better restore it.
I don't think that they 3
17 start taking requests.
But, it's dangerous to the system i
18 not to empty the wastebasket.
I don't believe that they ij 19 have ever gotten a request from anybody not to empty Ir 20 the wastebasket.
21 MR. MADEDA:
But, you have indicated--
a
{
THE WITNESS:
Because, I would have 22 23 the option to restore it.
24 i
MR. MADEDA:
You have indicated the i
25 initial discussion of this item, putting the CEO between i
23 1
and Mr. Hastings in his office when it was entered into 4
2 the CEO by Mr. Hastings dictating it to yourself.
j 3
Then, you mentioned you had cleaned-4 it up and made corrections whenever, an hour later, or a 6
day or two later?
6 A
No, I'm going from time frame of five day report.
And 7
also getting in the mail.
No, that would hava been done.
s My dictation was, you know, normally done within half a 9
workday.
If he dictates to me at the end of the day, by 10 morning, no we don't.
We work long hours to get the work 11 done.
12 MR MADEDA: Do the initial draft 13 that was dictated to yourself, that's the one that went 14 out, as you said, on hardcopy to three or four individuals 15 or whoever?
l THE WITNESS:
Right.
16 17 MR. MADEDA: Okay.
Then it --
l 18 THE WITNESS:
For review.
i
' j 19 MR. MADEDA:
Then it's assumed it i
,r 20 omme back, that's when you cleaned it up?
s 21 THE WITNESS:
Right, I would have 22 g
edited it one time for sure before it went out for review, 23 because, when I take dictation, I' might what you call j
24 speed type if you say it in the essence.
I would have 25 went over to my desh and cleaned the document to my l
.n..-
-,..,,e.c-.
_~..,n-
24 satisfaction.
And then others would view it and mark it 2
up.
And it could have been edited by me to clean it 3
up, and it could have been edited four times, I mean 4
it's not unusual.
5 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
Just so I. understand you 6
correctly.
Once the document was edited and reviewed, 7
you physically discarded it in the wastabhsket?
8 A
I deleted it line by line.
9 Q
That's the problem.
You deleted it line by line into the 10 wastebasket?
11 A
Yes.
12 MR. HICKEY:
Wait, I think you're i
13 md.sunderstanding, and correct me if I'm wrong.
\\
14 It utiderstood that there were two 15 ways that you could delete a document.
One of them was 16 to simply say you're done with it and in which case the I
17 full text of the document would be in the wastebasket?
18 THE WITNESS:
Right.
tj 19 MR. HICKEY:
And the janitor-would ir 20 come the following weekend or whenever they come, and 21 when they,take out the data from the base, the full text 2
{
of that document is there and availabl6, and could be 2
23 pulled up ence somebody wanted it.
24 I understood Ms. Cody to say that is 2s not what she did with this document.
She did something
25 1
different with this document, which was to delete it t
2 line by line so that there was nothing in the wastebasket 1
i 3
that reflected what had been in the system.
4 THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
5 MR. RAZMAR:
That's what I wanted to 6
clarify.
So in other words --
7 THE WITNESS:
'Ihe d'ocument at a point 8
in time when it was done, finalized, you know, we're 9
not going to make any other changes, it's going to go 10 through Region III, this document was deleted from the 11 system.
12 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing): By yourself?
13 A
By myself before it was deleted to a wastabasket.
That 14 was where I mentioned just previously.
It was erased i
15 line by line on the screen, the document itself.
j Q
I see.
16 3
17 A
So, right away before I even cancelled, X out of it, li 18 I can bring that document up again and it's empty. We 5j 19 haven't even thrown it away yet.
Okay.
a I
20 And then I dicard it with the five 21 delete key.
The document was empty.
And that went into
,~
g' the wastabasket.
I then had the option until the 22 23 janitor was run, I could do anything I wanted with that 24 document.
So, if I chose, which I did not do, if I 25 chose to edit that document, say if something came in and 1
26 I
we mailed it to the NRC already, but we had a big 2
correction or follow-up with an amendment or sonething.
3 I would then direct it to bring that 4
document back into my system, I would restore it.
And 5
then say hey, we have to edit that, we have to change 6
that.
I would bring up the document and there's abholutely 7
nothing there.
s Q
I'm glad that you clarified that.
So in other words, 9
basically there was a header in the wastebasket that 10 you yourself could not recreate the document if you wanted to?
12 A
There'c a title.
13 Q
Okay.
14 It was my understanding that the l
lb entirety of the document was still in the wastebasket, j
which would be a normal routine.
18 17 Well, in this instance, you deleted 5
18 it line by line, so that the only thing left in the i}
l' wastebasket was the title?
I t
20 A
Didn't I just say that.
Didn't I just say that.
21 MR. HICKEY:
I think it was a little
{
unclear.
22 23 MR. KAZMAR:
That's what I wanted to 24 get cleared up.
25 THE WITNESS:
I'm glad you did..
I
'27 1'
Q (By Mr. Karmar, continuing):
And one last line to i
2 summarize --
3 A
I realize, I understand a lot more things about this 4
system use it, not computer language, but user.
And it's 1
5 easier for me to think that everybody else does.
e Q
To summarize there's one point that I just want to make 7
sure that I am elsar on.
8 When that document was created on 9
the CEO, to your recollection, nobody else was accessed, 10 or nobody else was mailed that document?
11 A
That's my recollection.
12 HR. KAZMAR:
Okay.
13 Terry, you have anything else?
14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. MADEDA:
16 Q
The only question to conclude with is, during this
[
-- were other people involved in the discussion with 17 i
is Wayne Hastings concerning if, or is this document not tj safeguarded information, other than the discussion 19 f
r 20 you mentioned that you apparently had with him and it 21 was your.. understanding that the NRC -- that Wayne had
{
talked to the NRC.
22 23 Was there any other discussions that 24 you were involved in?
25 A
No.
Well, as far as what happened?
1 28 1
Q Okay.
2 A
You mean going, I mean saying was I ever asked what 3
happened?
Internal office discussion after, 5
as far as our violations by safeguard is CEO would 6
have been one.
But, I never sat down with anybody and 7
discussed and was counseled or had a meeti6g to explain a
what happened in there.
8 And the next thing I became involved 10 in was when I got the phone call from Richard.
And I'm
- going, "Oh,"
I have never spoken with you, yourself, 12 or Mr. Pirtle, Mr. Madeda.
Our internal on sight QA 13 Department never spoke with me.
Q You were involved in no additional formal or informal 15 discussions with the, let's say the office staff with 16 GTOC concerning this?
l A
Right, not as far as informal discussions on'the incident, i,
18 no.
As far as safeguards on CEO, it was a very public 5j thing, you know, became a violation, we paid a fine of
'8 20
$50,000 or some amount on that and others.
At several 21 occasions, all violations are discussed by staff, you 1
22 g
know.
I'm not saying, but, the words were never briefed 23 again, because it was. Well, everyday conversations with i
24 running of the department or something.
25 MR. HICKIY:
Let me make sure I y__
__________y,
29 l'
understand what Mr. Madeda is asking you.
2 From the time that that incident 3
occurred, Novenbar 7th we think,1985 until the time when d
Ms. Kazmar contacted you and sat down and talked to you 5
in June --
6 MR. KAZMAR:
It was June of '86.
7 MR. HICKEY:
Did you have occasion a
because of discussions with other people to think back 8
of what had happened on November 7th, and try to recall 10 the conversation?
11 THE WITNESS:
No, I didn't.
Probably 12 would have helped,but I didn't.
13 MR. HICKEY:
I think your memory is 14 remarkable to remember what you do remember.
15 Specifically, did you have any j
discussions in the office with Mr. Thompson, or Ms. Larry; 18 f
or Mr. Korte around the time of November 7th, when this l
18 document was created about the fact that you had done it t
I l'
on the CEO machine?
Ir 20 THE WITNESS:
No, there was no j
21 discussion or many informal interviews.
The subject was 2
[
there in the office along with all of them, as far as 22 23 informal training or whether we do, or I need some 24 details because there's going to be further action, I 25 was under no impression that there was.
30 1
MR. HICKEY:
Lee me ask you one 2
more specific question so the record is clear.
3 There was a consnent that you made d
earlier.
5 Did you ever indicate to Ms. Larry e
in any way that you felt that you had been pressured, 7
or forced, or compelled by Mr. Hastings to do something 8
that you thought was wrong to do, and didn't want to 9
do?
10 THE WITNESS:
No, I don't recall 11 any conversation that would lead me --
12 MR.KAZMAR:
Are you saying that you 13 don't recall in reference to Mr. Hickey's question.
Are 14 l
you saying you don't recall or there wahn't any discussion?
15 A
I'm sure there was.
I never any time felt that there was 16 any threat or, you know, the wrong-doing.
I was not I
17 under that.
18 MR. HICKEY:
Let me --
i 8
19 Q
(By Mr. Madeda, continuing):
Would that have been because 1
Ii 20 of your understanding from Mr. Hastings that the NRC 21 had already approved of his doing this during this 2*
22 discussion?
g 23 A
My recollection --
24 MR. HICKEY:
I really don't understand 25 the question.
I thought you said that I asked her whether
,-_p---n,-,
-_n,--.
.,,,,,,,_.-,.v-
.--,.-,,.,--,.c,,-eym,
31 1
she had discussions with Mrs. Larry, in which she 2
expressed that she felt pressure.
3 And your questionfis was that because--
4 MR. MADEDA: Pressures can be a lot of 5
differant avenues, I guess --
6 THE WITNESS:
I believe it was asked 7
of me like it was a stipulation, you're going to do this a
or else, and I never received that from Mr. Hastings.
8 Q
(By Mr. Madeda, continuing):
Did you still feel that it 10 was safeguard information even though Wayne Hastings may not have?
12 MR. HICTEY:
She testified that 13 Mr.Hastings said it was safectarded.
(
THE WITNEOS:
To the best of my 15 recollection, that's how I learned about the safeguards, l
l and tha.c's the same, since you're identifying it.
We're 18
[
going to leave it on and that was I assume, the reason 18 it was safeguarded.
It was going to be edited.
18 MR. KAZMAR:
Okay.
1r 20 MR. HICKEY:
I have two more questions.
21 You don't mind.
l MR. KAZMAR:
No, not at all.
22 23 MR. HICKEY:
I want to make sure that 24 I understand one aspect of it.
25
32 1'
EXAMINATION 2
BY MR. HICKEY:
3 Q
You did normal secretarial duties in this section, typed 4
a lot of documents besides five daye responses, is that 5
correct?
6 A
Yes.
7 Q
Did you type on regular typewriters as well as CEO 8
equipment?
9 A
My experience was mostly on the CEO, but I did heve 10 occasions to use the typewriter.
11 Q
Were enere typewriters there available for you to use 12 when you needed them?
13 A
Yes.
14 Q
Do you have a significant amount of secretarial experience, 15 have you been a secretary for a good while?
i 16 A
Yes.
4 17 Q
Are you, I have heard that you are a skillful secretary.
i 1
i 18 A
Thank you.
19 Q
Is that true?
ir 20 A
Yes.
21 Q
If you would have to type about a five-page report on a
{
regular typewriter, not on the CEO, you have any idea 22 23 of how much -- is it quicker or slower to do it on the 24 typewriter, as opposed to the CE0?
25 A
Typing it in would be no differant.
i
33 6
1 Q
Okay.
2 In terms of editing the document, 3
where you might have to make changes on it.
And soif y~ou 4
had to retype a five-page document because they changed 5
the word, and moved the sentence, do you have any idea 6
about how long that wculd take you if youwere allowed to 7
sit and type straight for whatever time 7 8
A I'm sure less than an hour.
8 Q
When you send out a report to the NRC, that had been 10 gone through editing and had been revised and so on.
11 Was it common or uncommon for you to 12 take a copy and paste it together in order that you 13 finally want it to be in, and then Xerox and send a i
14 Xerox to the NRC, is that common?
15 A
That's very cotanon.
I don't know if any of their reports j
aver see done the original, typed, cut and pasted,because 16 17 it would be simply somebody wanted one sentence out, 18 or moved the paragraph, cut and paste.
j 18 Q
I guess what I'm getting at, in your experience there i
{
r 20 and in your own mind, wa= the use of this CEO equipment, i
1 21 forget about what you're using it for, a large or a small
[
factor in making it easier for you to get the product 22 23 out?
24 A
Not considered -- I mean just --
25 Q
Forget about what it was.
34 I'
A Okay.
Say that again.
2 Q
I'm trying to get the difference between using the CEO 3
and using the typewriter and cutting and pasting.
d Was there a substantial difference 5
in your mind in terms of how easy it was to produce a 6
document, to use the CEO as opposed to using the 7
typewriter?
8 MR. KAZMAR:
Which one is quicker, 8
I think Mr. Hickey is asking you.
10 THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
Okay.
All il right.
12 I would have to qualify that, because 13 we can cut and paste.
I mean the CEO would be more 14 convenient.
But, if you're basing it against the 15 documer.t that has to be typed but is allowed to be cut 16 and pasted, the advantages are great.
s 17 If you're talking about a document 1i 18 that the CEO typed, or a five-day report that somebody ij is going to have to get the original, the CEO Would 18 1r 20 1
outvin it.
21 HR.KAZMAR:
The CEO w~ould be faster?
3 22
{
THE WITNESS:
If you were to have 23 an original, that's what I believe the word processing 24 editing is on-the originals, you know.
It's cut and 4
25 paste, it would be sitting.
If it's a five-day report, l
35 you could cut and paste quickly changes than you could 1
2 on the CEO.
One of the facts is that you don't have to i
3 sit and wait for it to be reprinted.
I know we're not talking about this five-day report.
That's to me, my 4
opinion is, you know, if you need original documenta.
5 6
MR. KAZMAR:
The CEO is the best way 7
to go?
8 THE WITNESS:
'l n.
But, to cut and 9
pcste, it wouldn't be any hardship.
That's been --
10 not specifically this document, but other five-day reports.
11 One report can be cut and paste five times as quick as 12 when they change them.
Somebody has got another brain 13 storm, you know, somebody else's opinion.
14 I mean, I have had people chop spaces is in the words for me so ve can use cut and paste, j
16 MR. MADEDA:
Were other safeguard l
documents security plan, contingency plans, training 17 l
18 plans, procedures, put on CEO for drafting purposes?
Ij 19 A
No.
t i
e 20 MR. MADEDA:
This was the only 21 document that you can ever recall that this has ever a,
22 happened to?
23 THE WITNESS:
At security, we do have 24 word processing groups independent in*another building 25 that this is set up for.
u
36 1
MR., HICKEY:
I don't know if you 2
understood what she is saying.
3 THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
4 l
MR MADEDA:
They do have other l
5 mechanisms?
6 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
7 MR. HICKEY:
There is a word 8
processing capability and the security plans are on it.
9 MR. MADEDA:
Yes, but that is on a 10 different type system.
It's on the internal system.
11 MR. HICKEY:
It's a CEO, yes.
12 MR. MADEDA:
The final draft that 13 would have gone out of the security section, would that 14 have been a clean copy going to Leonard, or would that 15 have been one as you said, cut and paste?
i 16 THE WITNESS:
Leonard sees the cut 17 and paste.
ii 18 MR. MADEDA:
- Okay, s
i 19 S
THE WITNESS:
On this instance?
I N
MR.MADEDA: On this instance?
21 THE WITNESS:
Okay, on this instance
?
{
I don't believe that there was a cut and paste on this 22 23 document.
24 MR. MADEDA: So, the copy that Leonard 2s or the documents that went to Leonard, would have been a
37
'I l
clean whatever, copy or original?
2 THE WITNESS:
I don't know, I'm not 3
at the finalization of the package.
4 MR. MADEDA: You don't take it off 5
the printer?
6 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
I take it off the 7
printer and its supplied by Joe Korte, they make copies a
for themselves.
And I don't know if the NRC would have 9
received an original of the printer.
They could have 10 received a copy off the printer.
11 MR. MADEDA:
I guess the point I was 12 getting to was when it left the security section, would 13 you be involved in it leaving that section?
14 THE WITNESS:
No.
In fact, to the 15 best of my knowledge, what was sent out was on the CEO j
18 only because I seen it since I had no idea of a typed l
17 version.
You could have received a typewtiter version, ii 18 I supplied the document which appeared to be what was 19 sent.
Ir 20 MR. HICKEY:
I wanted to ask you one 21 other question.
f 22 Q
(By Mr. Hickey, continuing):
How long before November '85, 23 you had known Mr. Hastings, and under what circumstances 24 did you know him?
25 A
Okay.
I started Fermi September of '83, and worked for
38
'1 Ed Griffin and Frank Agosti joined when they came over 2
to the NOC.
And I would have met Mr. Hastings, I'm sure
.by the end of September.
3 4
And I would have known him then, 5
and would have been a hi and friendly, as all the 6
director levels, I started out knowing all the top 7
people.
8 And I was on the NOC until September 8
of '85.
And early in ry ti~e at Ferni, at the NOC, I 10 did get to know Wayne.
And I had worked on,I.can't H
remember the specific project, but I do know another 12 clerical, Sandy Barnes.
And I had actually done work, 13 we were working together on. a project for him.
14 He knew me then.
I mear it was 15 something he's known me.
16 MR. MADEDA:
Both of you have
[
17 worked together prior to his inception?
i y
le THE WITNESS:
Not under his ij 18 direction.
Not under his group.
I cannot remember the ai 20 groups he belonged to.
But, I would have spoke to him 21 all the time on something, or maybe meetings, whatever.
2 22
{
Q (By Mr. Hickey, continuing):
The question I wanted to 23 ask you was whether from your experience with Mr. Hastings 24 over the years, you had an opinion about Mr. Hastings' 3
honesty and integrity?
39 "1
A Yeah, I know him that long, and I do feel he is a very 2
honest man and he's a hard worker, he's a driver.
He's 3
the kind of manager that drives his people harder than 4
ever to get results.
5 I think he's very honest.
I don't 6
think he would intentionally do anything to harm himself 7
or the company.
He's got 25 years with the company.
8 MR. KAZMAR:
Let me ask you why 9
Mr. Hastings may have used the CEO or used the safeguard 10 information when it appears that he was knowledgeable that it was an unsecured system?
12 THE WITNESS:
My impression of, which 13 goes back to when I became involved is when it was, you 14 know, a memo was dictated at one time, he identifies it 15 and he's going to add it and he spoke with the NRC.
And 16 I was still not under the Lapression that at that time,
[
17 I know that I did not feel he was doing anything that ii 18 would be -- that he would get himself again, I mean I O
}
19 can't see a motive, you know.
I didn't feel at the time ai 20 he was identifying safeguards that this man was doing 21 something that was going to harm himself.
2
{
MR. KAZMAR:
Are you saying that he 22 23 wasn't trying to do anything that was intentionally 24 deceptive in any way?
25 THE WITNESS:
No.
And now that it's
l 40 1
all over and everything has happened, you know, what I've i
2 gone through since then since June and July and August 3
and now, I still feel I can't feel -- to me, in everyday 4
life in everything business or at home, if somebody has 5
a wrong-doing, to me you're going -- there's something 6
you want to personal gain for it, be it monetary or 7
whatever you know, and I just can't see any reason that 8
he would definitely try to deflate himself or the company 9
for the years's he's put on, you knew.
I can't see no 10 personal gain there, or a motive that he's striking back 11 at the upper management for any reason. No, I just don't 12 feel that he iF.
13 MR. MADEDA:
Were you involved in any 14 either direct discussions or indirect discussions overheard 15 frcxn Wayne Hastings' opinion of the NRC, or comments that 16 he may have had about the NRC inepector?
[
17 THE WITNESS:
Nothing informal, no, i
la
.nothing.
i s
{
19 MR. MADEDA:
Just as you happened ai 20 to be in the area when it vas said?
21 THE WITNESS:
No.
Wayne's opinion 2
{
of the NRC that I would have heard would be no different 22 23 than anybody else's opinion in the group.
And it's to 24 the point where it wasn't personal vindictiveness or 25 our friends are coming back again.
I mean, let's face it,
---,en
- - - - -, -,,+
,_,,,---,m----.---.,-,--,m
.,-en.-,
--- -,.es
~
41 1
I'm sure that you're aware that NRC and everybody picks 2
up and ruins everything.
Not that we don't want everything 3
to run smoothly in the plant or anything.
Or that 4
anything is being hid in the security building or anything.
5 But, it's just that you know I
6 guess that you know that you are in the limelight.
- And, 7
in fact I think that this probably shouldn't be for the 8
record.
9 MR. HICKEY:
You ought to be aware 10 that it will be on the record.
11 THE WITNESS:
Right.
This has 12 nothing to do with your question, i
13 MR. HICKEY:
Why don't you ILmit 14 yourself to his question.
15 THE WITNESS:
No, there is nothing.
j 16 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
17 i
THE WITNESS:
No, nothing. Nothing V;
18 vindictive.
sj 19 MR. MADEDA:
No unusual remarks as I
20 to the points, don't worry about the NRC, or they're 21 a bunch of fools?
9_
{
THE WITNESS:
Wayne would have known 22 23 we have to meet guidelines.
24 MR.MADEDA: So your response is you're 2s aware of none, no derogatory remarks?
,n
-,,,,.,--.,,-...,-,.,_.,,-,-,.,__,,--,,,.,.e,---,-.,,-.,-_a_e,
~.
42 1
THE WITNESS:
No.
2 MR. KAZMAR:
Mr. Hickey, you have i
3 anything further?
4 MR. HICKEY:
No.
5 MR. KAZMAR:
Mrs. Cody, have I or any 6
other NRC representative.here threatened you in any manner, l
7 or offered you any award in returri for your statement?
l 8
THE WITNESS:
lio, I haven't.
9 MR. KAZMAR:
Have you given this 10 statement freely and voluntarily?
11 THE WITNESS:
Yes, I have.
12 MR. KAZMAR:
Is there anything 13 further you want to add for the record?
14 MS. WITNESS:
No.
15 MR. KAZMAR:
Thank you.
16 (Interview concluded 17 at 10:30 a.m.)
T Y;
18 19 a
r 20 21 Si 22 h
23 24 25
43
Y STATE OF MICHIGAN )
)
SS 2
COUNTY OF WAYNE
)
3 C E R T I F I.C A T E 4
I do hereby certify that the witness 5
whose attached interview was taken before me, in the above-6 entitled matter, was by me first duly cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the cause aforesaid; that the testimony contained in said j
l interview was by me reduced to writing in the presence of upon a typewriter.
The said interview is a true and correct transcript of the whole of the testimony given by the said 12 witness aforesaid.
13 I do further certify that I am not connected by blood or marriage with any of the parties or their agents, and that I am not an employee of either of them, nor l
interested, directly or indirectly in the matter of I
controversy, either as counsel, attorney, agent or otherwise.
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l i
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto I j 19 i
set my hand affixed my notarial seal at Detroit, Michigan, t
2d County of Wayne, State of Michigan, this 18th day of 3
September, 1986.
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24 Dleborah J. Nash, CSR-2993, Notiary Public, Wayne County, Michigan l
My' commission expires:
9-4-87 u
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