ML20151S101
| ML20151S101 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Fermi  |
| Issue date: | 09/17/1986 |
| From: | ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20151N259 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-88-227 NUDOCS 8808150072 | |
| Download: ML20151S101 (65) | |
Text
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i DTGLNA'
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l UhllED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW l
Information in this record was deleted in accordance with the Freedom of inferrnliorf Act, exem >tions 3 F0IA T-M LOCATION:
DETROIT, MICHIGAN PAGES:
1 63 DATE:
WEDNESDAY, SEPTZMBER 17, 1986 l
Enc ure Co ns
. SAFEGU S
FORMTIO/
UponSjea tion This is Deco rolled ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
Ma*n 444 Capitol Stmt Wuhington, b.c. 20an g
3.86,006 (202)347 3700 exsisc t
, NAT!ONWIDE COVERACE 000M0 F.
,t, MAXWELL 88-227 PDR
=
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA t
2 NUCLEAR REGUIATORY COMMISSION 3
In the Matter of:
4 The Interview of:
5 WAYNE HASTINGS
_____________/
6 7
The Interview of Wayne Hastings, taken 8
pursuant to Notice by me, Deborah J. Nash, Certified Shorthand 9
Reporter and Notary Public, in anc for the County of Wayne, 10 State of Michigan, at 2000 Second Avenue, Detroit, Michigan, 11 on Wednesday, September 17, 1986.
12 APPEARANCES:
l 13 UNITED STATES REGULATORY COMMISSION 14 Of fice of Investigations Field Offices Region III 15 799 Roosevelt Road Glen Ellyn, Illinois 601J7 i
16 (By Richard C. Kazaar, Esq. anc 5
Terry J. Madeda, Esq.)
I 17
}
Appearing on behalf of i
18 tinclear Regulatory Ccataission ij 19 SHAW, PITTMAN, POTTS 8 TROWBRIDGE 1800 M Street, N.W.
t 20 Washington, D.C. 20036 (By J. Patrick Hickey, Esq.)
21 Appearing on behalf of Detroit Edison 4
22 ana Wayne Hastings 23 24 25 e
e 1
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APPEARANCES:
(Continued)
)
1 2
JOEN M. FLYNN, Esq.
Senior Attorney 3
2000 second Avenue Detroit, Michigan 48226 Appearing on behalf of Detroit Edison 6
7 8
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3 WAYNE HASTINGS 4
Examination by Mr. Kamar 5
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De troit, Michigan 2
Wednesday, September 17, 1986 3
d MR. KAEMAR:
For the record, this 5
is the Interview of Mr. Wayne Hr. stings, who is employed 6
by Detroit Edison Company.
The location of this 7
intervi:w is the Detroit Edison Plaza, De troit, Michigan.
8 Present at this interview is 8
Mr. Wayne Hastings.
Also present is Mr. John Flynn a 10 Detroit Edison attorney.
And Mr. Patrick Hickey,
'l representing the Detroit Edison, who is an attorney 12 for Shaw, Pittman, Potts and Trowbridge.
13 MR. HICKEY:
And representing Mr..B&stJngs.
15 MR. KAZMAR:
Oh, okay.
f Present for the NRC, la Mr. Terry 16 f
Madeda a safeguard inspector.
And Mr. Richard Kazmar,
'7 i
f inspector.
18 The subject matter of this inter.iew 20 concerns the use of the CEO system in handling safeguard 21 information.
e i
22 r
i Mr. Hestings, please stend and raise 2
your right hand.
WAYNE
- HASTINGS, 25 having been first duly sworn as a witness herein, was I
8
5 t
1 examined and testified as follows:
2 EXAMINATION 3
BY MR. KAEMAR Q
Mr. Hastings, in the tbne period of about July through 4
5 December 1985, what was your position with Detroit Edison?
6 A
July through December okay.
?
In July and $ugust, I was a 8
Director of Fiscal and Meterial J4anagement.
In September 9
through December, I was a Director of Nuclear Security.
10 Q
What is your educational background?
11 I have a Bachelor's Degree in Business Management from A
12 the University of Nebraska.
And a Master's Degree in i
I 13 HDA, Master's Degree of Business Management, from the 14 University of Michigan.
15 Q
What is your background in regard to the CEO system, i
18 the comprehensive electronic office.
[
When did you first get involved with I;
18 that system?
f 19 A
Well, I had used it in my prior job.
20 Q
Okay.
21 And where was it, whsn did that 7
22
{
start?
23 A
It started af ter I finished a project to start the 24 security computer.
So that was in January of '85 through --
25 well it continued through when I, you know, my present job
,n.
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6 i
I use it.
O Did you have any formal training into the capability 2
3 of the system fror cata General, or how did you ccme about -- how did you gain knowledge about the use of that 4
6 system?
)
A well, I have not had any formal training, except a 6
7 f amiliarization course that the company of fers all people, 8
which was about two hours.
And it just told you what 9
the menus were, and how to operate within that
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10 environment.
l' MR. MADEDA:
Did during the context 12 of that course, did it explain any of the capabilities
(
'3 dealing with the security of that system?
I' THE WITNESS:
No.
15 MR. MADEDA:
Just basically how to j
16 use it, to get on it?
[
'7
'ITE WITNESS:
How to in effect, i
E
'8 log on, send a message.
Log of f, that kind of thing.
j
'8 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Are you familiar with the Ii 20 handling of the safeguard information?
21 A
I learned a lot about that during the course of my f
tenure as director of nuclear security.
22 23 Q
I want to show you a memo that was cc'd to you, dated 24 July 1st, 1985.
It's from Mr. Stuart Leach to Mr. Piana.
25 Let me show you this doctznent and let me know if you have
l 7
seen thio befors?
I I
2 At this point I can say that I have cartainly seen it.
A I
3 It was an exhibit in the other proceedings.
l 4
Q Was that the labor proceedings?
5 3
y,,,
6 Did you ever had a conversation with Mr. Mach or Q
Mr. Piana reg'arding the contents of this memorandum?
7 8
I don't remember seeing it until I saw it in the labor A
8 proceedings.
'O Q
Bow would you account for the f act that it's dated 11 July 'US, and a copy was supposedly sent to you, are 12 you saying that you didn't see it?
k
'3 A
I don't recall seeing it.
And it would not be a major thing me because I have no responsibility for CEO at 15 that time.
f 16 Q
Okay.
In July of '85, what position were i
E
'8 you in then?
I f-I
'8 A
That was when I was director of fiscal material management.
MR. MADEDA:
Would you have any l
21 7
1 22 i
responsibility for the CEO system in April?
THE WITNESS:
Not in '84, no, sir.
24 During '84, I was in security from like September on in 25 the start up and security cotnputer, but that had nothing i
t
8 1
to do with CEO.
Q (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
I want to.show you another 2
3 document, it's frcun Joe Korte, and it's dated September 30, 4
1985.
5 Ana I guess it's from the printed from 6
the CEO system.
And it supposedly was sent to you, mailed to you, would you like to take a look at that?
7 A
I saw that at the labor proceedings.
8 Q
Did you see this at the time it was created September 30, 9
10 1985?
A I don't recall seeing the document, no, I remember hearing 11 12
-- discussing the information.
But, I don't remember I
13 seeing the document.
Q When you say you remember ciscussing the information, 14 is do you recall the specifics of that discussions with when l
and the nature of it?
16
[
17 A
Not in the way of a specific discussion.
I remember talking i
5
'8 with Joe Korte about an itern I had to have a security 19 procedur s and plans available on CEO.
So we wouldn't 20 has s distribute them, and more importantly, everybody 21 would be sure to have a current copy, because there was 7
22 4
some problems that people were having of keeping the 23 book current.
So, I had an icea that that woula be 24 helpful if everything was stored on the CEO.
25 MR. HICKEY:
Can you put a time on tha;7 I
i
9
=
i
'nIE WITNESS:
Wall, that was in 2
September when I first went over to security.
We were 3
practicing for the Fermax drill, the RLP drill.
And I was 4
observing that in the security area.
And everyone didn't 5
have current documents.
And so I thought, well, if this 6
technology would work, then we could have them current.
7 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Let me show you another 8
document, it's from the CEO system and it's entitled 9
documen't. beader.
And it indicates that you saw this
'O document that I have previously shown you.
Yes, I know what you're talxing about.
That indicate it A
was removed off my account.
I don't know whether I read f
12 l
i 13 it off, whether my secretary did.
So, I can't say that I, you know, say specifically see this document.
I
'6 specifically don't know that I die or didn't.
16 I do know that I am familiar with
[
the information on this document.
But I cannot possibly i
18 y:,u know, this business about the document, I can't i
f speak to that, because it wasn't that big a thing to me
'9 at the time.
20 21 o
When you say your secretary, who are you referring to?
A I believe at that time it was Dorothy Ballent, I believe
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22 23 her name is spelled B-a-1-1-e-n-t.
Now, Cindy Cody came 24 over and replaced her, and I think that was a week or so 25 after that.
But I could be mistaken, I don't have the I
..,,_-r.
10 I
cxact tim 2 frame that Dorothy lef t onc Cindy started.
2 MR. HICKEY:
If you know, if you read 3
the document, if you read the messager that Mr. Korte 4
put in the September 30 transmittal off the CEO screen 5
and didn't get a hards copy document, do you know whether 6
this document that Mr. Kazmar showed you also reflected 7
that it had been read by you?
8 THE WITNESS:
It's my belief that 9
when you view it that thing is transmitted back, I 10 don't think it has to be copied.
11 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
You con't recall viewing 12 it?
l
(
13 A
I don't recall seeing the document, but I recall discussing 14 the information with Korte.
I recall a discussion with l'
him, I don't recall a docur, ant.
i 16 Q
okay.
17 Referring to that document I showed i
i i
18 you before frcan Mr. Korte, he said there, "Wayne, per
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19 your request, Kate and I have investigated the possible 20 use of CEO handling safeguard information".
21 Is that true, did you request --
7
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22 A
Yes, I wanted him to look into it.
23 Q
What precipitated that request?
24 A
I'm sorry.
What I was interested in coing, was having 25 a current cppy of the plan and procedures available to the
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11 1
security parsonnel cnd others who cre cuthorized to hava 2
it.
3 And in my way of doing it at the 4
time, was to have it stored in CEO in some' manner, and 5
. technically I never envisioned how you do it. Anu I asked 6
Korte if he could clear the way so that could be 3
7 accomplished.
That would save labor costs for all the 8
distribution and filing and it woulc be sure that we 9
had current documents available for everybody.
10 That's what I was thinking about 11 when I was talking to Joe about the thing.
Now, Joe 12 might have felt his position threatened.because the net
[
13 result of this would be he woulan't need a helper.
14 Q
Well, would you recall Mr. Korte bringing up to you 15 scoe of his concerns as to why it shouldn't be used l
for safeguard information?
16
[
A What I recall fresa a response from Joe was that he talked 17 ii 18 to the canmission personnal in Region III, and we t
19 weren't going to do it.
Or I shouldn't say that and they 20 advised us not to do it.
21 And he basically conveyed to me
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his impression, or conveyed to me the impression, I can't 22 23 speak for his impression.
24 He conveyed to me the impression that 25 he didn't want to do it.
And now he had support-from the
w r r i. i i u ru rv i i v i u p mm l
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N 12 phono call to not to do it.
2 So, in ef fect, he didn't do any 3
real analysis or research.
He just got scoe people to say conservatively that they would recommenc it be done.
6 Q
Wouldn't recommend using the system?
6 For this idea that I was talking about where we would A
7 have all of the plans and procedures.
8 which is obviously safeguard information?
o 8
ch, yeah, I was going to quit the whole process on it.
A 10 See, we had it on word processing anyway.
But this was in another building.
And it was a big hassle running 12 back and forth every time we updated procedures which we
(
i
'3 were doing quite a bit of the time.
And so it seemed more efficient to j
'6 just have it where we coulo do the updating in the office.
1 Since we were writing it down any way and taking it over.
9 And Joe was doing that and some time Kate 14ery was 18 helping him.
Q I want to direct your attention to the time frame the 20 latter part of October in which Detroit Edison was 21 involved in composing a five-day 12tt3r to the NRC g
i n
e i
regarding the'
- incident, i
23 Do you knew uhat incident I'm 24 talking about?
2s A
Oh, yeah, that's the one where we got a safeguard n'
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13 9f.ni'r u %'s s
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4-a
- i-1 violation from for use of CEO.
It's my understanding that 2
you dictated a draft of that letter to your secretary 3
by that time was Cindy Cody?
d A
Yes.
5 0
Ana you directed her to use --
6 A
That was the second draf t.
Joe wrote -the first one.
7 Q
Joe Korte?
A Korte wrote the first one.
And I was involved in the 8
3 incident personally.
And I didn't think he had conveyed the facts the way they ought to be or probably presented at the time.
Q so, you dictated a second draf t to your secretary who 12
[
13 was Cindy Cody at the time?
Yes, I dictated a draf t to cincy.
A Q
Did you instruct her to use the CEO?
15 16 Yeah, I said that I would dictate it to you on the CEO l
A because it's more efficient for me to stay up here and
[i I guess.I kind of had gotten spoiled, because Cindy i
18 i,
and my previous secretary although they know shorthand,
'8 20 they can just go ahead and type it up on CEO, and I can
,i 21 actually read it on the tube.
And it comes off in a 2
[
more conversational way and teore clearly perhaps.
22 23 And the obvious question, is that you knew that the Q
24 information you were putting into that memorandum was safeguard information?
. hE
14 I knew that it had been our practice to put all five day A
2 reports into safeguard.
3 Q
Okay.
A I didn't have a great deal of knowledge regarding safeguard at the time.
But I was going along with the 5
6 office practice and previous one that Joe had done was 7
in fact safeguard.
8 Q
Okay.
8 When you told Mrs. Cody to use
'O the CEO, did she voice any objections to you at that time?
12 A
I don't recall a strong objection.
I did mention that
[
'3 I do remember mentioning about be sure it's self-contained and nobody knows your account password, where it's going 15 to be.
f 16 Q
Is that what Cindy told you?
A No', I recall telling her that, that please change your y
f password so that only you know it and don't show me
'8 because I don't want to know it either.
Q Did you have discussions with anybody a.lse and I'll list 21 them, Sam Thornpson, Joe Korte, or Joe Conen, regarding g
22 i
using that CEO in editing this five-day letter?
23 MR.BICKEY:
Could you give him a 24 location or time?
25 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Well, at the time you were
15 3
creating the documsnt, wcs thero any discussicn between 2
yourself, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Korte, and Mr. Conen or any 3
conversation of those individuals regarding the use of 4
the CEO in draf ting that letter?
5 A
I don't recall the use of the CEO being a conversational 6
element.
There was a lot of discussion about what we said 7
what we did to get the right impression.
8 Q
Did any of those individuals or any other individuals 9
that I may not have mentioned caution you in the use of 10 the CEO in composing that letter?
11 A
I don't recall it if they did, it was such a low key, 12 like I don't recall if I drank a cup of coffee or not.
{.
13 so maybe one of them went out and offered me a cup of u
coffee.
It was the sort of thing that was very low key is or non -- if it didn't make an icpression that I can i
16 recall now.
I 17 Q
Mr. Hastings, I interviewed those individuals, and they e
l 18 all stated in either sworn statements or on the record 19 that they did caution you to the fact that the CEO --
20 that there is some question as its security, and it 21 shouldn't be used in handling safeguard information?
E i
22 MR. HICKEY :
I think in frirness a
23 to the witness, if you want to get bisWrest..
24 recollection, you should direct him to the specific 25 occasion so that he can say that never happened, or it might
1 16 have happened and I don't remember it, or now I remember I
you're talking about something in the men's room, or in the 2
3 hallway, or the office or whatever.
4 He's told you he don't remember any 5
discussion.
You want to have his response to specific allegations, then you tell him what the allegation is.
6 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Well, according to Mr. Korte, 7
he says to the best of his recollection, yourself, 8
9 Mr. Thompson and Mr. Joe Conen.from Licensi.ng/ were 10 somewhere in your office area, and I believe this was the last date of the five days.
12 And Mr. Th apson expressed concern i
i to you that the CEO shouldn't be used in the editing of 13 14 this letter.
15 MR. MICKEY:
You have any words?
i 16 MR. KAZMAX:
Pardon me?
MR. HICKEYi Does he give you a y
is direct quotation, what was said or just expressed concern?
Q (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Well, Mr. Korte doesn' t 20 21 remember exact words used, but there was no other
'l 22
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interpretation of what was said other than they were 23 trying to tell you that there was some question to the
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24 secuirty of the system.
And that the fact that the five 25 day letter was safeguard information, that it shouldn't be
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17 1
used, or there was some question if it should be used.
2 You recall those conversations?
3 MR. H ICKEY :
Wait a minute.
This 4
is a conversation Korte said Mr. Thompson said that 5
Thompson expressed concern in your office on the 7th of 6
November, right, with Korte and Conen present?
7 THE WITNESS:
In my office, boy.
8 I don ' t -- I h ad type c, I had dictated, I didn ' t type,
9 of course, I dictated it to Cindy.
Either late in the day before the last day,or early the last day in the
'O
'l morning.
Because we had comments back on the initial 12 writing, or initial report that was initially written 13 that weren't f avorable.
14 our management didn't think that is was the way they saw it.
I mean they were also involved 16 in the determination of how we did what we did on the 17 T
T; 18 And so I remember rewriting it 19 prior to any discussion, and any discussion we had, t
20 would have been af ter the fact af ter it bac been done.
21 And I guess it didn't make enough impression that I
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don't recall it.
22 23 MR MADEDA Do you recall a 24 discussion that you had with > cur staff, where your staf f 25 suggested that they call the NRC to ask for an extension
18 1
of this report, o day or two baforo they would have to 2
submit it up under the five day rule?
3 THE WITNESS:
We were talking about 4
an extension.
5 MR. MADEDA:
Where was that 6
discussion held?
7 THE WITNESS:
I don't recall.
8 MR. MADEDA:
Was that held in 9
Sam Thompson's office with yourself, Sam Thompson, Joe 10 Korte, and Joe Conen present?
11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
I know 12 we were talking about the extension,,hecause we were 13 having trouble getting everybody's concurrence on what 14 the report should literally say.
15 MR. MADEDA:
Do you remember a j
16 discussion in Sam Thompson's of fice that related to the I
17 same time that it was being discussed for the extension T
y i
18 that --
I 19 MR. HICKEY:
He doesn't remember 20 being in Sam Thompson's of fice.
21 MR. MADEDA:
Be didn't say that.
He E
i 22 said his own of fice.
23 MR. HICKEY:
No, no, you just ask 24 him if he recalled a discussion with this staff about 25 calling nor an extension a day or two before it took place
19 in San Thompson's office.
And Mr. Korte was present.
i 2
And his answer was, I remember having I 3
a discussion with Sam, I don't remember where it was.
4 MR. MADEDA:
But, you remember 5
.having that specific discussion?
l 1
6 MR. HICKEY:
Well, depending on what i
7 you mean specific discussion.
8 MR. MADEDA:
Dealing with the 9
specific discussion, dealing with the possible delay --
10 7HE WITNESk I. remember talking
'1 about the need for more time.
And I frankly can't tell 12 you whether it was in Piana's of fice, in the security
(
'3 office,.any one of the offices.
MR. MADEDA:Do you remember if
'5 anything else was discussed at that meeting other than f
the possible delay of the report?
16 17 THE WITNESS:
I remember discussing i
I
'8 or possibly delaying the report in an informal way.
And
'9 I don't -- frankly I don't recall whether we did delay 20 it.
21 MR. MADEDA:
Was it delayed?
?
{
22 TH E WITNESS :
I don't recall whether 23 it was delayed or not.
But, I do remember discussing 24 a delay, and that we were still going to -- whether ornot 25 we delayed it to try to get it done as quickly as we could.
20 MR. MADEDA:
Do you remember during 2
that discussion when you talked about the delay, whosever 3
of fice it was in, yours, Piana 's, or Thompson's, that 4
it was also discussed that this information, this safeguard 5
information should not be put on the CE07 6
THE WITNESS:
I don't recall the 7
specific -- any specific discussion about this report 8
and CEO until Gary Pirtle was then investigating the 9
event, came to me and asked me about it.
'O MR. MADEDA:
You don't recall a situation where Gary Pirtle during the September 30, 12 October 4th inspection where it was discussed about 13 using the CE07
'4 THE WITNESS:
Now, I recall 15 discussing with one of you, you or Gary.
And I can't l
sort out which one.
16
[
'7 MR.MADEDA:
About putting the I
5
'8 security plan --
THE WITNESS:
Yes, the procedure.
And that was kind of in the general area of where Joe 21 and Kate sat.
With several of us involved.
And the 2
x 22 i
memory I have on that was two-fold.
It was not known 23 by the inspector
- whether you could or couldn't put it 24 on.
2s There was a let of discussion on
21 1
risk to the company, in terms of delay, in terms of cost 2
of rewriting it, including the training if they were 3
compromised.
And how if anything would be done, the right way to.do it would be to talk to scusebody from 4
5 headquartars.
And I got the name. from one of you, the 6
gentleman's name at your headquarters.
7 And as a result of that, my 8
impression was well, that's going to be a big deal.
That's 9
very low on my priority list.
It would be nice to get 10 to it some time.
And I just kind of dismissed the whole 11 thing.
12 As far as being concerned about 13 CEO and safeguards for storing and utilizing the currency 14 of the process.
15 MR. MADEDA:
You do remember the 16 discussion whether it be with Mr. Pirtle or myself, dealing with the possibility of using the CEO Ier safeguard
[
U i
i 18 information?
19 THE WITNESS:. Safeguard information --
i t
20 MR. MADEDA:
Security plans and 21 contingency --
2 22 THE WITNESS:
Yes, in terms of all g
23 of our stuff.
Our main line stuf f, yes, I do remember 24 that.
And I decided not to do it because it was a big 25 deal.
And that was really where I waseeeming from
l'RI GFIMM!1 TIM EUIMUN IV H4 n
i I'
in the thinking and I didn't tie it to an isolating 2
case or word processing, which is what I would 3
characterise the to be.
4 The report was'a singular 5
case where we used the word processing self-contained 6
in the of fice unit in a very restricted way, just for 7
convenience.
B MR. MADEDA:
So, basically to 9
summarize, you were made aware by the NRC that there 10 coula possibly be a problem of entering safeguard 11 information on the CE07 12 THE WITNESS:
In the context of the t(
13 plans and procedures which would remain there, yes.
I 14 don't remember getting the NRC's concerns translated 15 in my thinking to the type of incident we're talxing about
{
16 with the If I would, I never done. it,because 17 the last thing I wanted was a violation and especially
,ii 18 one I would be involved in.
i 19 That would be the most ridiculoua
-j 20 thing in the world for me to beccane mixed up in.
And it 21 turnsd out inadvertently, that I managed to get my name
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on the violation sheet in that regard, which is --
22 23 we have always admitted and rather humbly, because I got 24 caught short on one.
D HR. MADEDA:
So, you said the I
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1 discussion was held during --
2 Between myself and Mr. Pirtle, during the October 30th, 3
to October 4th inspection, just involvec the security 4
plan and procecure contingency plans.
5 ME WITNESS:
Yes, that's the context 6
I perceived it in, yes.
7 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
8 You said that the information that you were putting on the CEO is not safeguard information?
9 10 TEE WITNESS:
No, I didn't say that 11 in the case we're talking about, I used the CEO as a 12 word processing as action and what I perceived was a
(
13 self-contained way.
MR. MADEDA:
Well, you had not in 15 no final determination had it done either by your staff
{
or yourself to support that conclusion?
16 f
THE WITNESS:
No,. af ter the discussion Y;
18 I had with one of the two of you, I just dropped it where
[
I felt we had bigger activities or higher priorities, 18 20 that is a consequence I didn't pursue it further and 21 didn't direct staff to.
And to my knowledge they didn't.
f 22 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
So, what you're saying is 23 in your conversation with Mr. Pirtle and Mr. Madea, 24 that didn't include the use of the CEO for word processing,
25 you were concerned that that discussion was for the entire b.5)
Ik',.
k kf; kthti
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nae
_ DAG, f_O N...
- -lWU. ?W V M i MW 24
~,,
safe planning?
2 yes, office efficiency.
I we.nted to be absolutely sure A
3 i
3 that everybody had the current one.
Be it a plan or 4
revision or procedure.
5 In 1985 and in that time period we're talking about,
{
Q were you Rware of an off site capability of the system, 6
I of any off site capabilities?
l 8
When I became aware of the lines to the president's j
A 8
office af ter Gary investigated it.
I i
Q Okay.
j
'O What time frame ace you talking i
12 about?
'3 nis is when he was there in the Kovember reactive trip.
A He came out on a reactive trip, to the two events we 15
- had, being one.
j 16 And then during that period he was
[
there, and it was aid November.
It wasn't the first day
'7 Ti 18 he was there, it was maybe the first week, maybe the second week, I don't recall.
He came in and he said 20 7,a aware that you put a safeguard report on the CEO, 21 and I said, yes, I did.
22 He said, well, he needed to investigate 2
the CEO.
And I said, fine.
I don't think there is a 24 problem with it, but, I'll make an appointment with John Pipis and you can go talk to him and investigate it.
t SST4t.dDS?;}g_ muuF_L u
i r' m
1,. '
2s 1
And so he went and came, you know, 2
whenever we set it up in a day or two, he came back i
3 and said, yeah, I have determined from John that tnere's 4
a line in your corporate president's of fice, and therefore 1
l 5
you're in violation.
6 So, I said I can't believe it, 7
but I don't want to call you' a liar so, right in front of 8
Gary, I called up John and I said, "Gary just came back 9
from talking to you, do we in f act have a line, do we 10 really have a line in the president's office?"
He said, i
11 yep, we do.
It was put in kind of quietly.
12 So I said, well, I will be damn.
13 And Gary said that that line causes 14 this to be a violation.
And I never really contested 15 it, I didn't delve further into it at that time.
I just j
16 felt that we're getting a lot of violations.
[
17 And Gary, as he always does, and i
i 18 Terry too, made a point of telling me potential violations.
I 19 The inspectors never say violations, they always discuss 20 potential.
And I can't understand why,we discussed the 21 rationale of how it's all determined.
E f
22 And so,.I Selt that my best chance 23 of not having it be a violation, would be to have it not 24 show up on the inspection report as one.
And as a 25 consequence, I didn't press Gary on it at all.
P;p.
' 2. $y y'. (..-
. r: :.;.
26 I figured hey, it's a violation, it 's 2
a small thing, I tried to have him understand what a j
3 limited occurrence it had been, and maybe I get it mitigated by Region III.
5 Q
so, I understand you to say that during the inspection of Mr. Pirtle, which w'as around the middle of November 6
7 of '85, you were not aware that there was an off site 8
transmitting capability until you found it out?
8 A
Gary told me.
10 Q
Okay.
But, then according to this 12 document created by Mr. Korte, he states in item one, the system is not self-contained within the facility, we have four lines that go downtown.
15 So, you were aware of this document?
l A
well, I don't recall the four lines downtown, that's you know, that's a specific element.
Ana I was -- you V*
18 know, I just wasn't aware there was a line like that 19 i
in the president's office.
MR. MADEDA:
I think you did indicate you had discussed that with Korte, but you may not i
22 i
have seen the direct memo.
23 THE WITNESS:
I'm not trying to say 24 I didn't.
But, I'm saying that I don't recall seeing it.
2s It could very easily be that I read it on CEO.
He didn' t
27 1
address what I was hoping he would, and that's how can we, 2
this comes across why we can't.
3 MR. MADEDA:
Subsequent to receiving 4
the information in the memo when you saw the memo, or you received it verbally, did you pursue the matter any 5
6 to make any determination if, in fact, any of these things that you heard or saw in the memo were true?
7 8
TEE WITNESS :
I don't r61 ember specifically addressing it more, because it didn't meet 9
10 what I hoped we could do.
That's put the plans up.
11 MR. HICKEY:
And when did you see 12 Mr. Pirtle, or Mr. Madeda; whoever it was, to discuss it?
(
13 TEE WITNESS :
They came through 14 on an inspection that the exit was October 4th, so it 15 was the five-day prior to that.
Sometime in that thing, i
16 we had this little information and formal discussion.
[
17 And I didn't make a particular note of it, other than i
i 18 what I got from the discussion was confirmation from I
19 one of the inspectors that before I put the plan &nd i
20 procedures on, I had to get headquarter's approval.
I got that concept confirmed, and 22 1
that was really the issue.
I never addressed the 23 specifics or the mechanics of it.
24 MR. MADEDA:
Well, the information 25 in Korte's memo you discounted them?
l
28 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
2 MR. MADEDA:
Based on?
3
'IHE WITNESS :
Based on the fact that I guess I talked to the -- what I read in memo.
5 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
6 THE WITNESS:
Was that he called 7
Region III, got an opinion, wrote it down called probably 8
somebody in the computer services, got &n opinion, 8
wrote it down.
He hadn't done any original work and I
'O just kind of said,.well, hell, you know it's a -- when I got to know, I dids't pursue the original work myself 12 with computer services, nor did I ask Joe to go read it.
[
'3 I just dropped the thing.
'd MR. MADEDA:
You made a fconscious
'S decision that the information in that memo wasn't l
appropriate?
16 h
MR. KAEMAR:
Wasn't addressing what Y
I
'8 you were --
t f
MR. HICKEY:
Wait a minute, wait a t
2 minute.
2' I don't mind you asking leading 22 questions, but, if you lead, you've got to understand what 23 he says.
THE WITNESS:
I didn ' t make a 25 conscious decision about any of the specifics information I
...-e
29 1
in the memo.
I just discounted the idea of it's more 2
hassle than it's worth to put the plans and procedures on 3
CEO.
The conscious decision was to go forward on the 4
plans and procedure on the CEO, and that's really the only decision that I can, you know, speak to regarding 5
6 the memo.
7 It wasn' t to pursue it furtherf I 8
guess conscious decision was into the purchase, because 9
I thought there was other greater concerns and developments 10 equipment, and I can list them.
11 MR. MADEDA:
So, in your own mind, 12 you decided that pu were not going to put the plan or
(
13 procedure on CEO?
14
' hie WITNESS :
Right.
15 MR. MADEDA:
Based on your i
16 underEtanding of the memo?
[
17 THE WITNESS 4. Jty underskanding.
ii 18 of the conversation is that I recall-was that there were 19 f;
so many open questions to pursue, studits to resolve, t
20 so we just were going to drop the idea of plans ana 21 procedures for the thne.
i 22 23 24 25
30 1
O Just to cicrify somathing.
\\
2 Why did you use the CEO for the five-day letter when you knew that was confidential?
A With 20-20 hindsight, I should have.
Q You didn't tie it together?
6 In other words, you were saying, you have a differentiation between the CEO for the five-day letter, and the CEO for the plant?
f 8
A Oh, yes.
Let me speak to the differentiation.
'O The plant and procedures concerned ideas that I had gotten from these discussion from the inspectors and my own staff, was that the risk of compromise i
'3 and the cost of recovery was a big thing.
That's one thing, well, there's two 15 things.
l 16 One, there was some question about what happens 'when a document is erased in total.
- Hvw, there's an open issue I don't know what.
1
[
So, because of this, I didn't use it for any other terminal, just a mode of convenience 21 from dictating the thing on the CEO so you can read 22 i
it on the screen.
I made the mistake and put this 23 document on it.
24 Even though beina sensative to what 25 I didn't understand, I asked my secretary to chance
31 2
i the password.
And then af ter we got the thing out, to 2
go through it and delete it line by line, because there seem to be no -- if you did a line by line deletion which is time consuming and laborious, you do it for the convenience of editing, up-dating, and 6
getting so it matched.
That was after the fact she did that.
8 0
Mr. Hastinas, I'm still wondering, why did you differentiate between thuse two, types of &ctually beint safeguarded
'U information?
1 Why did you differentiate the use of the CEO word processing as a reservable unit, obviously for these plans, am I correct in saying that?
14 A
Yes.
O I'm trying to get at is why did you make that distinction 16 l
because they're both safeguarded information?
A Oh, that 's true, they 're both sa feguarded.
i O
How did you differentiate is what I'm asking?
19 i
A I had imagined at the time that when it was in Security --
20 MR. HICKEY:
You mean in the Security 21 Cepartment?
k 22 THE WITNESS:
Let me back up.
23 The CEO system c.s I understand, is 24 each unit has a little one, and then there's a big 25 one centrally.
And the sheer volume of these plans
32 3
and proc duros go to th3 big ccntral ons, and othors 3
an access that.
And that's where I thought they 2
w uld be put.
3 MR. HICKEY:
The tricky word processing, 4
that wouldn't get into the big conputer?
5
""" 9 6
for a short time in the machine in Secut-ity that I 7
thought was secured, because nobody could come in there 8
and do anything do it.
9 Plus, my secretary's passward was
\\
10 changed in case somebody in the office had found out g
what it was.
She didn't know, and I didn't know.
12
\\
We just changed it and then that's secured and so I
13 forth.
34 For a short time, a matter of a 15 t
C uP e of days at the most, this could be there and l
i 16 3
not be a problem or anyway shape or form.
37 0
(By Mr. Kasmer, continuing):
Mr. Hastings, I want ig l
to ask your opinion on a statement of Mr. Thompson's.
39 HE states, "It is complex, I sm going to do the best 20 I can to familiarize what happened, if you don't 21 understand, let me know".
22 3
I tried to make that as short as possible.
23 MR. HICKEY
- You might show it to 24 him and let him read it, 25 i
a
_1
33 4
MR. KASMER:
Yes, why don't you.
I 3
want to put it in the record.
2 I'm quoting >r. Thompson whose quoting 3
Mr. Hastings.
And Mr. Thompson said, "That was put 4
n the CEO" and according to Mr. Thompson, he told Mr.
5 Hastings, " We can't put that on the CEO it's safeguard".
6 And according to Mr. Thompson,,he 7
states that Mr. Hastings concern and walked out.
Do you recall that conversation?
9 MR. HICKEY:
Let him read it.
g MR. KASMER:
Well, for the record, g
let me identify where we're talking about here.
12 MR. HICKEY:
And does he put a time g
or something when this is taking place?
34 THE WITNESS:
I'm finished with the 15 conted in de docuent.
i 16 t
O (By Mr. Kasmer, continuing) :
Referring to page 18 i
u of the interview with Mr. Thompson on August 16, 1986, 3g i
and it appears that tho time frame we're talking about 39 is the last day before t se five-day letter was due too.
3 Wo're talking about somewhere around 21 November 7, 1985.
22
'A MR. H1CKEY:
Wait a minute.
TNA day 23 before is the sixth.
It was due on the sevent',
24 MA. KASMER:
Then that's when it was 25 6
- n. _..,. -
34 5
dua.
I imagino that'a November sixth.
Wa'11 start in the middle of the page, line 13.
2 0
(By Mr. Kasmer, continuing) :
Do you recall that 3
conversation?
A No, I don't recall the conversation.
And I don't 5
'"Y' 6
0 How could you recall it?
7 A
Joe Korte wrote the original one under Sam's direction.
g He worked for Sam.
They wrote up the original five-day 9
report on the 33 And we walked it around and talked 11 i
to people.
I remember talking specifically like to
,7
/
Agosti and Piana, both of whom had some involvement 33 in the activity that we're writing on.
And both o f 3,
them had suggestions on how the thing ought to say 15 j
16 And, so the way I remember doing
,7 it, with some notes in my head, there were some notes 3,
j in the sheet, and I recall dictating my version of this thing from looking at that document.
20 The original from Korte was with 21 notes on it, I didn't start out from scratch.
I didn't i
22 i
know that much aboat it.
23 And I don't recall -- and then it 24 was af ter we had draf ted it that I recall talking with 3
r m.--,,y-,..,.---,.,,,-,-,mg, e
n,-n.,
35 0
Korto and Thompson.
I don't rccc11 Consn, although i
3 Conen was sort of in the wings, because his role was 2
to take it to the of fice of Korte, and get Bob Lenart's 3
signature on the cover letter.
0 Okay.
5 A
And so I don't recall Conan being there.
He wouldn't 6
have had a very important, role.
He might have been 7
at the conference, I might not recall him being there.
I recall talking to Sam and Joe to 9
get there imput on it on my version with the consideration g
that I gotten from management.
And once all of these 33 things was worked on, they presumably made some 12 adjustments.
(
33 I don't exactly recall specifically.
34 I recall I gave the draf t to Joe, because I wasn't 15 familiar en ugh with the format of the darn thing i
16 to the office, so I had to get it submitted formally.
g So, Joe did the formating to the 3g extent it was finally changed. And I believe it was 39 probably retyped.
3 I don't know, maybe my secretary 21 under Joe's direction put the last comma 's, and 's, i
22 t
and buts' in it, and submitted it.
23 So, I don't know if the final version 24 was a CEO version, or Joe retyped it.
But, when I was 25 i
l
36 7
cssured it caid what wo cgreed to, I had no problem 3
with it.
And I didn't personally check to make sure j
2 everything got in, because I had confidence if they 3
)
said it was done, it was done.
They being Joe and Sam.
4 0
You recall taking the letter from Mr. Thompson and 5
Mr. Korte, the draft?
6 I
A Well, I recall getting the draft and talking with the 7
two personnel I mentioned.
And at the same time, I 8
believe Sam was talking to some other personnel in 9
the Uniform section, and possibly in Operations.
to 0
Well, the finished letter, was that submitted into the 33 NRS, is that the one you edited from the CEO to your 12 recollection?
l' 13 A
I don't know if it was CEO or not.
The finished 34 i
thing that I think that went, there was a composit 15 of corrections and inputs.
I gotten the corrections i
16 and inputs that Sam and Joe had gotten, and it was 37 in the form that Joe said the way we do things.
3g And having this been the first one 19 i
we ever did, I am not in a position to okay that's 20 the form.
So, I don't -- like I said, he recalls a 21 discussion that's kind of different from the way I 22 remember the process was.
23 24 Q
Mr. Hastings, did you ever discuss with Mr. Thompson 25 who was the first line supervisor under you, correct?
37 8,
A Yos.
0 Did you ever discuss with him your distiction you had j
2 l
in your mind about using the CEO for the safety 3
plans versus it as a word processing?
A No.
It came up the instant we used it.
And it was 5
only this one time that we did it.
But, it came up at th.e spur of a moment, and just to get my thoughts 7
on paper.
Part of which had to be headed and part of 8
which was not.
9 0
Is that why you used the CEO?
10 A
Yes, as a spur of a moment convenience.
Because, you 3,
can read it as you dictate it rather then it come out 12 in shorthand and then wait until the four or five
[
13 pages get redone, come back.
I never thought it was j
3, a major decision.
15 MR. MADEDA:
And at that time, you j
16 4
thought it was safeguard information when you put it on?
37 THE WITNESS:
I thought it is probably gg i
Safeguard, what little I knew about it.
39 MR. MADEDA:
And did you put it on 3
the system, that you didn't even know that the system 21 was Safeguarded?
i 22 B
MR. HICKEY:
That's not what he said.
23 MR. MADEDA:
What did he say then?
24 MR. HICKEY:
You can answer it again.
25
38 9
THE WITNESS:
I thought tho roctrictivo i
2 way that we used this word processing function of the CEO was appropriately within the Safeguard system, 3
4 okay.
Although I didn't have an okay for the whole i
1 5
system.
\\
6 Q
(By Mr. Kasmer, continuing) :
Why in your mind did you feel it was okay in that instance, in the word processing 7
versus information, your one on one information the 8
l 9
plan?
10 A
I had in a single account with a secret unknown password.
And I couldn't see how anybody could get at it.
I 11 12 mean, they would have to come into Security.
f i
(
I MR. MADEDA:
Did you have any knowledce --
13 MR HICKEY:
I don't know if he finished 14
)
15 his answer and wha the was saying.
They would have to come into Security?
i 16 17 THE WITNESS:
You have to come into e
f Security if they were going to do a data receive, 18 f
19 because that data was physically on that machine.
And i
20 they wouldn't be in because, you know, they come after 21 hours2.430556e-4 days <br />0.00583 hours <br />3.472222e-5 weeks <br />7.9905e-6 months <br />, and we would have to provide an escort and Ei 22 we wouldn't do that.
23 0
(By Mr. Kasmer, coa inuing) :
Couldn't a superuser 24 find out what the new code was?
25 A
I was under the impression -- well, to answer your
39
. 10 question, no, I don't think so.
But, another way of saying it, if 2
there was a concern that I had that a superuser could 3
get at the data, not to find out what the password 9"
5 Because, they save the data so that if you had a mechanical malfunction, they could restore 7
it to the point in time they saved it.
And they come g
0 9
So, I felt that if they saved it, they g
might be able to get at it.
So, therefore, we didn't 33 want them in saving it until this document was deleted.
12 Therefore, I didn't think we had
(
i 13 any potential compromise for the stuff getting out.
g O
So, you felt by deleting it, that you circumvented 15 the possibility of a superuser getting at it?
9 A
Two aspects, deleting it line by line so it wasn't 3
37 from the vastebasket.
And we discussed whether the 3,
j superusuer could read what was in the wastabasket.
39 I
CEO jargon which means that saved g
in the file, you can retrieve someway.
And then the 21 t
other thing is that the superusuer couldn't physically i
22 5
get to the data, because they couldn't come into 23 Security without us being involved.
And we weren't 24 involved during that period of time.
25
40 11'. -
i And that's only going to be a few days anyway.
So, there wasn't a long term risk there 3
for these procedures, in my mind, which weren't really clear, didn't have to be addressed.
O Mr. Hastings, I'm going to direct your attention to a letter dated June 19, 1985 to -- from Detroit Edison.
7 I'd like to direct your attention, 8
it's in response to the violation.
Were you involved in the preparation to of the document.
Let me show you as so you understand exactly what I'm talking about.
12
[
A Okay.
Q And I specifically want to direct your attention to the attachment page three, and it's the third sub-heading, "Reason for Violation".
i 16 And specifically, more specifically,
?
17 the final sentence.
y 18 Did you have any input into that i
't 19 statement, including that statement into the document?
20 A
I generally worked on the whole thing.
I didn't specifically put that statement in, but I don't find k
22 objections to that statement, because Gary Pirtle 23 told me when he told me it was a violation that that 24 was why.
25 MR. HICKEY :
What was why?
.,.,.,._.-,-,,,,,,----.,.-.,,.<,_.,_,,,.,,.,__,,_,.,,,_,q-,___
41 g
THE WITNESS:
That there was a line 2
off site that was theoretically possible to get in.
Even though I told Gary that I didn't think we had anybody on the site who could do it.
And he could find anybody, be my guest.
6 Or, if he wanted to bring somebody in and, you know, I tried to tell him those things in 8
a nice way so that maybe that would mttigate making this a violation.
'O O
(By Mr. Kasmer, continuing):
What was your working relationship with Mr. Thompson, was it a cordial one?
A Yes, I thought it was reasonably cordial.
Sam had
(
i been in the department.
He had characterized me coming in there that as Edson was bringing in long term Edison experienced supervisors, which Same only had a couple of years of Edison supervisory experience.
And he 16 I
17 felt he could learn from me, and I could learn from
'8 him.
.k 19 And the list and regulations, we could make a good team and ultimately I would successfully get a promotion and he would get the job I had.
And 22 5
we carefully worked on that.
23 0
What kind of job evaluation did you give Mr. Thompson?
24 A
Well, the job evaluation came up this spring, I mean 25 later.
42 13 1
O Let's excludo that.
I'm talking moro about tho time i
2 around September, November of '857 A
Well, I didn't give him a job evaluation at that time.
0 You had just come in the department?
5 A
Yes.
0 The first one was when then?
A In April.
8 O
And hosi was that?
A I told him -- because we had collectively a number of
'O violations, that the best we could say in spite of 11 our efforts is we done only an average job.
And 12 taken together, he said that's my assessment of both
'3 of them.
And he accepted that and said, "Yes, I guess 14 that's what you can say".
15 0
What was your perception of your staf f s' opinion of i
16 yourself?
I 17 MR. HICKEY:
What?
V*
18 O
(By Mr. Kasmer, continuing):
You don't have to answer i
19 i
it obviously.
But what was your perception of your 20 staff's opinion of you as their director?
MR. HICKEY:
How about a time?
?
s 22 i
MR. KASMER:
I'm directing it to a 23 time --
24 MR. HICKEY:
Of which time frame?
25 0
(By Mr. Kasmer, continuing):
'85 of November, December
i 43
)
. 14-or January of '857 3
A My staffs' perception of me?
2 0
Right.
3 A
They felt, I think reasonably appropriately, I was not 4
a security professional and I was learning from them.
5 S, I was asking them a lot of question.
Generally, 6
I think they liked me sometime, I thought they probably 7
thought I was bugging them.
8 "9"
- U " 9' O*
9 of them were a little uncomfortable with.
Where my 39 predecessor had worked and talked about matters one 33 on one with everybody, I tried to work through the 12
[
two supervisors in the of fice, Ken Heidel and Thompson.
13 I don't think it was very strong, 34 but a modest one that I was as close to them as my 15 predecessor had been.
And I discussed at considerable i
16 lengths, especially with Sam.
i g
T f
He and I both felt there was a better 18 j
way to run it, because if he was involved for sure 3,
i in the activity of the personality, he was supervision.
20 He could more specifically provide guidance and expertise 21 to them.
(
22 1
So, I guess it was not real close, 23 but not real unfriendly in this.
That was my perception.
24 I thought we had relationship.
25
44 15 I
MR. HICKEY:
Can I ask.
2 Was there an issue at the time with 3
the staf f about use of overtime and workload and staffing levels?
6 THE WITNESS:
Well, I had a management 6
concern about those things, because you recall, I 7
came from a Budget Material area.'
8 And in the Budget area, I had done 8
some informal comparisons with some other nuclear
'O plants.
And it come to the impression that we had far more on-staf f at Fermi than other places.
12 Plus, in looking at the payroll data, I
i i
13 we were working on the staff a high amount of overtime.
)
'd So, where I could --and I was not trying to be secretive, 15 I was trying to posture people for this, suggest to f
them that we got to figure out how we can do this 16 with less overtime, and ultimately less people.
1 I
'8 Because, we can't get approval on 19 j
the long run bases for these numbers, both personnel and overtime.
21 So, we were trying to get the job
'I I
22 i
done.
And I was joining the idea how in the future 2
being prepared for future users.
I 24 And we had temporary personnel, which 25 was the mechanism which was built into the system to
allow us to rGduco numbers without discharging or l
laying off anyone.
And it was never my intention as an 3
Edison supervisor to lay anybody of f, that was not i
my reason.
Our company doesn't do that.
Even though you realize Sam only had seven years with the corgpany, he was among the most 7
experienced.
So, these people coming from other organizations were not as sensative to the idea of our companys' layoff policy.
g g
There was some concern about a layoff, 12 and we assured them that you would get temporaries and it will all work out.
You wouldn't get hurt.
[
u 34 I don't know if I was totally confusing, 15 that was part of what I tried to convey to them in i
16 s
MR. HICKEY:
You mentioned once the 37 l
reasons you were interested in seeing about the possibility 3,
j of having a security plan and procedures on the CEO, 39 1
was that it would save the labor cost that was, who 3
21 y u knew were being insured, and in considering countless 4
22 modifications to the plan being type up in your of fice i
1 23 being secured, ard a security envelop being handed i
24 out at all the locations and sites, and apprently 25 not getting down all on a current basis.
46 l
'17 Who wero tha peoplo that wero involv2d in those efforts?
2 3
THE WITNESS:
Joe Korte, and Cathy Larry literally did that exclusively.
And.I know it was quite a bit of time to go through the process.
5 That was why I thought originally that if we co.uld just distribute them, make the information 7
Y""
8 central source where there was a mass storage facility, g
which I envisioned to be the computer future.
y But, that was one big plan.
I didn't 12 think it would be a big deal, and that's kind of what I gave up on.
33 3,
The reason I found the -- seems to g
be why the books weren't up-dated.
And I was watching one of these practice deals and saw the security 4
billing and their records weren't up to date.
37 f
I was asking about procedures, and 3,
)
ney opnM de kok, and h was an oM one, one 3,
i i
3 that I knew that had been revised.
And we hadn't 21 gotten around -- we haven't sent it, because we have 4
22 been busy.
23 And their disinterest because a function is kind of important, but we don't always 24 25 do it real timely.
And you know how an office works,
47 18 l
and it was sort of that concept that I was trying 2
to address with what I thought would be a great design.
3 But, I never pursued the discussion with the inspector.
5 MR. KASMER:
Terry, you have any 6
other questions?
MR MADEDA:
No.
8 MR. KASMER:
Mr. Hickey, you have anything further?
'O MR. HICKEY:
I got two.
I'm trying to be real helpful.
12 I guess there's one area you didn't address with him
(
'3 that seem to be relevant.
I want to pick it up.
EXAMINATION BY MR. HICKEY:
15 o
some of the other witnesses, Mr. Hastings, have addressed f
your involvement in the knowledge of a project in early 16 3
17
'85, to put a terminal from the CEO, some onto the
'8 axecutive offices on the 24th floor.
t I
19 3
Do you know, or can you tell us about i
your involvement in that project, and what happened to it?
3 22 A
Well, that's one of the known successes of my career.
When I was working prior to the job k
24 as Director of Fiscal and Material Management, I was 25 the assistant director of the Nuclear Administration.
l t
48 19 And we waro having somo difficultics qctting ths systems to talk to each other, so you can send messages 2
3 through the offices in and out of the protective area.
So, in order to coordinate'the techical 5
people to fundament in getting them to talk to each other -- in fact, I talked to ones when I didn't understand 6
the oxact terms.
7 S
then I get all of the non-cooperators 8
9 together and get them to agree to some technical plan implementation.
10 H
Well, in this process, I thought I 1
12 understood from my vice president, Mr. Jens that the
)
l' chairman's office -- which the chairman and president 13 34 are on the 24th floor of this building, were interested 33 in having one.
i 16 Okay.
I tried to get the technical g
g people to hook it in, and we got the thing all laid T
f out as a plan.
18 19 Now, I never called the president I
20 up and discussed this with him, you know, you got to 21 realize I didn't even imagine doing that.
But, I did i
22 have the technical staff.
[.
23 I talked to his administrative assistant 24 Mr. Edson about where might be a good place to locate 25 the equipment.
And I thought that's kind of being i
49 2 0'-
low key, and I wouldn't challenge anybody.
And Ed 2
tell us where it might be a good place to put it.
3 And I don't know Ed physically.
I had just met the guy.
So, I had the technical people deal where because they had to pull the wires and all 6
of that good stuf f.
So, it was determined that it was 8
going to be put in in the president's office.
And I thought it was a go project.
I'm thinking I'm doing
'O what the president asked the vice president to do.
And about less then two weeks before 12
}
this great event was going to occur over the weekend --
'3 we didn't want to disrupt this office.
I got called in the manager's of fice I
and, that was Agosti and Jens was the vice president.
f Agosti was the manager, and he's the assistant.
He 16 I
17 got to kind of do the heavy hand stuff, because the
'8 vice president doesn't really like to do that.
1 I
19 He called me in and asked me what I had planned by putting CEO's on the 24th floor.
21 Well, I said,
'It's, God, It's going to be in in a k
22 couple of weeks, less then two weeks now and the vice 23 president asked me to do it".
24 Whatever made you think they wanted 25 it?
I said the supervisor, I couldn't say your boss
50 told me.
Jan suggested that they would.
2 He said that we have been told in no 3
uncertain terms that they don't want that here.
It's just another piece of incompatible equipment.
5 They got two or three different kinds, 6
and nothing talks to nothing, and here is a fourth.
7 And that was the gist of what was going on.
8 Well, I swallowed hard and I assured 8
him it wouldn't happen.
And to the best of my ability,
'U I never heard any more about it getting into the president's of fice.
And so I called them all off and told
'3 him to don't say anything to Mr. Edson, just that the project is cancelled and just forget the whole thing.
I didn't want any more of this talk.
So, this was f
March or February.
I 17 And then when Gary came -- but that 5
18 made quite an impression on me, I don't have too much 19 j
contact with the top guys.
20 And when Gary said there was a line in the president's office of all places, I called --
22 i
that's when I called Pipus.
I think I meant to confirm 23 what Pirtle was telling me, was it true.
Not that 24 Gary is dishonest, but I was having trouble believing it.
25 MR. KASMER:
Pipus confirmed what Gary
--._.-.,n.
,n,_- - -. -., - - _,. - -,, -
51 had said?
THE WITNESS:
I didn't want to discuss 3
this anymore.
MR. KASMER:
What time frame are you 5
talking about now?
6 THE WITNESS:
When Gary confirmed 7
it.
It is when he was there on the inspection in 8
mid-November.
So, that was, that was I mean to this day, I can't understand how that all happened.
Or
'O who pulled it off.
I mean he's a better man then I am whoever it is.
I MR. HICKEY:
I have one more question.
'3 MR. MADEDA:
There is one other area that I want to explore, that I want to be clear on.
'S You questioned him, Mr. Kasmer f
particularly you brought to Mr. Hastings attention 16 I
17 today if he's heard one statement that Mr. Thompson ii 18 says he made on the day before this letter went out, 1
i 19 i
And you read him the circumstances which it was made I
20 and asked Mr. Hastings whether he could affirm or i
21 g
deny, or explain in anyway how that statement was 22 s
made, and whether it was made in which I think it wasn't 23 f air for you to do.
24 If you have other statements where 25 people have claimed that they told Mr. Hastings things,
52 I think you ought to confront Mr. Hastings with this at3 give him an opportunity to say it didn't happen, 2
l or I can't tell you whether it happened, or no it didn't happen that way, or whatever.
l Because, frankly I mean he's got to suffor this serious allegation on his honesty and
]
integrity.
And I guess we want to hear what the allegation was.
g 9
affidavits, you should bring those and let Mr. Hastings see what was said.
g j
I don't want to tell you how to do
(
this, you can do the best you can.
But, let him attempt to respond to thain and give you whatever answer he can y
give.
g MR. KASMER:
Well, the reasons I
{
didn't go through all of them is that when I asked f
Mr. Hastings if he recalled, if he had any conversation is with other persons.
3, And I listed them conversations relating to him these other persons contacting him g
about the use of the CEO and ha said he didn't recall.
22 j
HR. HICKEY:
How about a specific 23 statement in somebody's of fice and somebody said such 24 and such, he may recall.
25
53 i
I mean that's the normal procedure 2
in asking a witness about a conversation as to give 3
him as much detail as you can.
Where and when it 4
happened.
5 If he still can't recall, then you 6
have his answer, he doesn't recall, 7
MR. FLYNN:
I would ask you to consider 8
taking a break.
9 MR. KASMER:
We'll go off the record 10 and come back in five minutes.
I want to talk to Terry.
11 (Brief recess.)
12 MR. KASMER:
I want to take a moment 13 to address the question that Mr. Hickey had.
14 It's my feeling at this point in 15 the investigation I wanted to review some of the i
16 things that were discussed not only with Mr. Hastings, 4
1 17 but widi some of the other individuals we talked to, t
Yi 18 And just for Mr. Hastings information, ij 19 we have talked to other people, specifically, Mr.
i 20 Thompson, Mr. Korte, and Mr. Conen.
21 And the fact that when I asked you, i
22 Mr. Hastings if you recall any of those individuals 23 cautioning you about using the CEO system for Safeguard 24 information, you stated you don't recall, or something 25 to that ef fect.
54 1
I think at this point I'm not going 2
to confront you with any other statements made by 3
these individuals.
4 I don't have any more questions.
5 But, Terry Madeda would like to ask you one in regards 6
to your current position now.
MR. HICKEY:
I'got one question.
8 I hear you cay you're not going to confront him.
What in the why for thatr What is the 10 reason for not confronting him?
11 MR. KASMER:
Because Mr. Hastings' 12 response to my question if he recalls any of those
(
'3 individuals cautioning him about using the CEO for Safeguards information, he stated to the ef fect that he doesn't recollect any conversations of that nature, f
16 MR HICKEY:
As we said earlier, that's I
17 why the law ordinarily requires that you put the witness i
3 in the circumstances in which the statements was ei 19 i
allegedly made, who nade it and where was it made, i
20 when was it made; what was the statement.
21 Because the witness has an opportunity i
22 s
instead of roaming through his memory at large trying 23 to think did anybody ever say that.
24 MR. PLYNN:
My recollection is in 25 Federal Rules of Procedure which incorporates the Rules
55
=
of Evidence, which is under your agency in which 2
you're supposed to conduct this investigation --
MR. KASMER:
Well, not being an 4
attorney myself, but having some f amiliarity with the Rules of Federal Procedure, and being an agent for 6
some twelve years, this, first of all is not a court 7
of law.
And I'm not obligated that I know of unless 8
you can show me a rule, or a ruling where I would have 8
to comply with what you're saying.
'U MR. HICKEY:
I think the point --
MR. KASMER:
At this point in time
[
I choose not to.
13 MR. HICKEY:
The point we were making, 14 and the question, if you will agree is f airness to 15 Mr. Hastings.
}
16 You've made and you've investigated I
17 as it's your job to do, serious allegations that j
18 affect this man's career and his life and his integrity.
19 1
And I think he ought to have an t
20 opportunity to respond to them, and that's why he's g
here to talk to you today.
And I just think that i
22 it's unfair not to confront him.
23 If you think that you need to get 24 it furnished for some brief period for reasons that I 25 can't imagine that would be one answer.
I
56 1
But, I'm saying you'ro not going to 2
do it and you're not going to tell me why.
I don't think 3
that's fair.
4 MR. KASMER:
Well, the other point 5
I wanted to bring up in all fairness in which I am 6
trying to be f air, is that durinc the interview with 7
Mr. Conenl Mr. Randazzo was present, he was the Detroit 8
attorney.
He was present durina that interview with 9
Mr. Conen.
10 MR. HICKEY:
Was that an interview 11 that was on the record?
t 12 MR. KASMER:
No, it was not on the 13 record.
And that's the other point I wanted to make.
14 The only other interview that was on the record was 15 with Mr. Thompson, and I did confront Mr. Hastings
{
with the exact quote.
10 I
17 The other interviews are a combination --
1
{
18 in fact, I'll be very specific Mr. Conen's interview ij 19 which Mr. Randazzo was present was not on the record, i
20 there was no statement given.
It.;as just a memo written 21 by myself of my recollection of what Mr. Conen said.
22 g
As far as Mr. Cody, I didn't have a 23 written statement 24 KR. HICKEY:
You said Mr. Cody.
25 MR. KASMER:
Mr. Korte, I mean.
I
_. __ ~._ __._,,. - _., _.. _ _ _ _ _
t 57 I do have a written statement, and I don't believe 2
any attorney was present for that statement.
3 There again, in that statement, 4
there are no direct quotes.
5 MR. HICKEY:
Is there a time and place?
6 MR. KASMER:
He puts it at the same 7
time frame approximately where everyone else is, and 8
that's the date before the letter was due.
8 MR. HICKEY:
But, is the allegalities to that Korte said something also --
I' MR. XASMER:
When you said allegations --
12 MR. HICKEY:
What I am saying is f
I3 that the witness Korte made a statenant to Mr. bastings that you shouldn't put it on CEO.
MR. KASMER:
No, Mr. Ker te j u st f
confirmed what Mr. Thompson said.
And assuming Mr.
16 I
17 conen basically corroborate what Mr. Thompso:t s/ tid
'8 that he had cautioned you in regards to using the i
r 19 CEO for Safeguard, i
MR. HICKEY:
Well, obviously you have said one statement which is Mr. Thompson's, which 22 i
you have shown to the witness.
MR. KASMER:
And it's corroborated 24 by Mr. Conan and Mr. Korte.
And so that in itself 25 I don't see any reason going anymore into what Mr.
\\
58 1
Conan and Mr. Korte said.
Fair enough?
2 MR. MADEDA:
Okay, I quess maybe to 3
conclude.
4 The last area I would like to touch 5
onto is that you're currently assioned to the Fermi 6
site in the NOC under Frank Agosti?
7 THE WITNESS:
Right.
8 MR. MADEDA:
What is your current 9
status es of going into the protected area of Fermi II 10 unescorted?
11 MR. HICKEY:
Wait a minute.
Wait a 12 mir.ute.
I 13 Is this a question that relates to 14 the CE0?
15 MR. MADEDA:
It could, depending 16 on the responses.
{
17 MR. HICKEY:
What his present job I
I i
18 is, and whether he can go into a protected area?
19 MR. MADEDA:
Let me get to the heart i
l r
20 of it.
21 We understand that Mr. Hastings'
{
badge, security badge was pulled frem the site, which 22 23 l
would not allow him access to the protected area.
24 This in relation to the hearing 25 that was held by Kate Larry.
Which Mr. Hastings himself l
4 J
mention 0d th0t som3 of thos3 documOnts cama up.
2 MR. HICKEY:
You want to know if his l
3 badge was pulled?
t i
KR. MADEDA:
Yes.
One, we know the t
I 5
badge was pulled.
And the ten years that I have been j
6 with the NRC, that's a very drastic move 1'or the security badge to be pulled.
8 What I'm asking Mr. Hastings is, does 8
he understand the reason why that badge was pulled?
'O THE WITITESS:
Well, I work directly for Mr. Agcsti in my current assignment.
And Mr.
12 Agosti told me that the badge was pulled in relation i
k to this investigation.
It was not in relation to anything 15
,y,,,
I f
16 MR. MADEDA:
Is that the conclusion --
[
U excuse me.
'8 THE WITNESS:
That the Kate Larry i
l Labor Department proceeding is a related -- it relates
'O 20 to the same time frame, the same events, but a different i
2' allegation of wrong doing which the Labor Department 22 has initially denied and found in favor of the company 23 and she appealed the Department of Labor's findings.
I That's Kate Larry's position.
25 MR. MADEDA:
Would that be the reason i
l l
60 I
why the badge was pulled?
2 THE WITNESS:
It's my understanding I
3 that the reason the badge was pulled is because Region 4
III management, in order to clear the 2.206 letter, suggested that pending OI investigations, might be 6
a problem in this area for some reason.
7 So, Agosti said, we war.t a clear 8
letter.
We'll make it inactive.
The words he used 9
was we'll make it inactive and not pull it.
10 MR. MADEDA:
The result was still the same?
12 THE WITNESS:
I can't use it, but
/
13 it's not expunged from the system.
It's being temporarily 14 inactive pending the results of this investigation.
15 That is my understanding of the 16 l
situation.
I 17 MR. KASMER:
For the re ord, what is y
2 18 a 2.206 letter?
C 19
)
THE WITNESS:
The understanding I c
20 have of it, although I have never seen it, is that 21 Safe Energy Colition of Michigan in January following i
22 5.
the 50-54F letter that the Commission sent the company 23 Christmas Even, requ3sted of the Commission a show 24 cause why the plant's license should not be revoked.
26 And the Commission has to respond 1
61 a
4 to the Safe Energy Colition as I understand it.
And before they, the Commission Region III, could make the response and their clear conscience, they, in offeet 4
told Agosti to do something so that we don't have an 5
open issue of Hastings.
6 I was on vacation at the time.
And 7
I was on a sailboat out in the lake, so I wasn't even 8
contacted.
9 And so Frank did what I would do as a 10 reasonable prudent manager and told me about it.
I 11 called in before I came back to work just to see how 12 things were, and that was that.
'3 MR. MADEDA:
And that was the extent 14 of your discussion with Frank Agosti concerning --
15 THE WITNESS:
He said it had been i
16 made inaative.
And when I get back, he told me why 17 the first morning and I haven't pursued it further e
i*'
18 with him, ii 19
]
MR. MADEDA:
So, it's your assumption 20 based on that conclusion of this investigation review, 21 or whatever,it would be returned -- things would return 22 i
as they were with the badge?
23 MR. HICKEY:
That assumes based on 24 the outcome of the investigation.
25 MR. MADEDA:
Excuse me.
I
62 1
MR. HICKEY:
What doas that assume 2
about the outcome of the investigation.
3 What does your question assume about the outcome of the investigation.
5 MR. MADEDA:
The only reason I brought 6
up that last statement is that once the investigation is concluded you will be reinstated.
8 MR. HICKEY:
Concluded how?
9 MR. MADEDA:
I don't know, that's 10 what I'm asking.
11 MR. FLYNN:
You think he's guilty of 12 anything else, is that what you're asking?
{
13 1
MR.MADED3 do.
l' MR. KA9MTR:
Why don't you just 15 disregard the question.
l You have anything else, Terry.
'8 I
17 MR. MADEDAr No.
Ii 18 MR. KASMER:
How about you, Mr. Hickey?
l f
'8 MR. HICKEY:
No.
20 MR. KASMER:
Mr. Hastings, have I or 21 any other NRC representative here threaten you in any 5~
22 i
manner, or of fer you any reward for your statement?
23 THE WITNESS:
NO.
24 MR. KASMER:
Have you given the statement 25 freely and voluntarily?
63 e4., e 1
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
2 MR. KASMER:
Is there anything you j
3 care to add for the record?
4 THE WITNESS:
I don't know what else 5
would be german.
6 MR. KASMER:
Okay.
Thank you.
I 7
appreciate that.
l 8
(Interview concluded at 3:40 p.m.)
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 i
16 3
I 17 T
Vi 18 ij 19 20 21 2
k 22 a
23 24 25 l
64 i
STATE OF MICHIGAN
)
2
)
COUNTY OF WAYNE
)
a CERTIFICATE 5
i I do hereby certify that the 6
witness whose attached deposition was taken before me, in the above-entitled matter, was by me first duly cautioned 8
and sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and 8
nothing but the truth in the cause aforesaid; that the 10 testimony contained in said deposition was by me reduced to writing in the presence of upon a typewriter.
The said deposition is a true and correct transcript of the whole
'3
(
of the testimony given by the said witness afordsaid.
14 I do further certify that I 15 an not connected by blood or arriage with any of the parties f
or their agents, and that I am not en employee of either of
'7 them, nor interested, directly or indirectly in the matter V;
18 of controvery, either as counsel, attorney, agent, or i!
19 3
otherwise.
20 INWITNESS WHEREOF:
I have 21 hereunto set my hand affixed my notarial seal at Detroit, g
I 22 i
Michigan, County of Wayne, State of Michigan, this 18th day 23 of September, 1986.
24 25 Deborah J. NashMSR-2993, Notary Public, Wayne County, Michigan My commission expires:
9-4-87
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