ML20151S125
| ML20151S125 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Fermi  |
| Issue date: | 09/17/1986 |
| From: | ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20151N259 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-88-227 NUDOCS 8808150078 | |
| Download: ML20151S125 (48) | |
Text
- - - - -
ORIG.NA_'
UN11ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l
IN THE MATTER OF:
[
~
DOCKET NO:
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW O
LOCATION:
DETROIT, MICHIGAN PAGES:
1-46 DATE:
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 1986 l
AG-FEDERAI. REPORTERS, INC.
U, cgiew ar. mm 444 North Ca tol Street 3-86-006
- ygy)"347,3[
e m 9-NATIONWIDE COVERACE 8808100070 880630 WE 8-227 PDR
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(
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
In the Matter of:
4 The Interview of:
5 JOHN PIPIS e
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _/
7 The Interview of JOHN PIPIS, taken 8
I pursuant to Notice by me, Deborah J.Nash, Certified Shorthand 9
Reporter and Notary Public, in and for the County of Wayne, 10 State of Michigan, at 2000 Second Avenue, Detroit, Michigan, 11 on Wednesdsy, September 17, 1986.
12 APPEARANCES:
13 UNITED STATES REGULATORY COMMISSION Office of Investigations 34 Field Office:
Region III is 799 Roosevelt Road Glen Ellyn, Illinois 60137 (By Richard C. Kazmar, Esq. and 16 Terry J.Madeda, Esq.)
I 17 j
Appearing on behalf of 18 Nuclear Regulatory Commission 19 SHAW, PITIMAN,POTTS & TROWBRIDGE' i
1800 M. Street, N.W.
I 20 Washington, D.C. 20036 (By J. Patrick Hickey, Esq.)
21 Appearing on behalf of Detroit Edison 22 and cohd Pipi,s i
23 24 25
2 3
APPEARANCES:
(Continued) 2 JOHN H. FLYNN, Esq.
Senior Attorney 3
2000 Second Avenue Detroit, Michigan 48226 4
Appearing on behalf of Detroit Edison 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 j
16 4
17 e
i 18 i
19 i
I 20 0
M 22 2
23 24 25
3 I
N D
E X
2 WITNESS PAGE J
JOHN PIPIS l
Examination by Mr.. Kamar 4
l 5
Examination by Mr. Hickey 39 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 s
14 15 i
16 4
17 i
Vi 18 a
i 19 8
i l
r 20 l
l l
21 0
22 i
1 23 24 25 m.
l 4
1 Detroit, Michigan l
2 Wednesday, September 17, 1986 3
4 MR. KAZHAR:
For the record, this is 5
the Interview of Mr. John Pipis, who is employed by 6
Detroit Edison.
The location of this interview is 7
Det'roit Edison Plaza at Detroit, M.' chigan.
8 Present at this interview are Mr.
9 Pipis also present is Mr. John Flynn a Detroit Edison 10 attorney.
And Mr. Patrick Hickey, an attorney for 11 Detroit Edison associated with the law firm of Shaw, 12 Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge.
13 Present for the NRC is Mr. Terry 14 Madeda, Inspector.
And Richard Kazmar, Investigator.
15 The subject matter of this interview 16 is the use of the CEO system and handling safeguard 17 information.
Ei 18 Mr. Pipis, would yott stand and
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19 raise your right hand.
8 I
N JOEN
- PIPIS, 21 having been first duly sworn as a witness herein, was 2
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examined and testified as follows:
22 23 EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. KAZMAR:
25 Q
Mr. Pipis, what is your current position with Detroit Edisor?
5 1
A I'm the administrator of computer services at Fermi.
2 Q
And when did you assume that position?
3 A
That's got to go back, let's see.
Let me answer it two-4 ways.
s I was the first person brought in 6
for the administrative computer services, and that was back 7-
[g e81, when the Nuclear Operations Organization was a
first formed.
9 Q
Just for the record, were,you in your current position 10 in the time period of September through December 19857 11 A
Definitely.
12 Q
Can you tell me when was the CEO system, the comprehensive 13 electronic office started at Detroit Edison?
(
14 A
I hadn't quite thought of that way.
I'm going to say the 15 time frame was mid 1983.
j 16 Q
Okay.
[
17 Can you kind of narrow it down to y
I 18 me.
When did the system actually become functional i
j approximately?
19 Ir 20 A
Let's back up and put a little history now.
21 Q
Okay.
2
{
22 A
When we first started looking at it, we were looking at the 23 office automation in general. We already had Data' 24 General equipment, Data General had an office automation 25 system.
And what we were looking at was let's bring the ll
6 i
software in and put it on hardware and see how it works.
^
2 Basically looking at it from a pilot system.
3 And we started talking it in mid d
'83 By the end of 1983, we had a small system running, s
The system as we visioned it today, came in place.
6 Q
Was it prior to Septemberedf '85?
7 A
Oh, definitely.
8 Q
Okay.
9 A
It was -- we started getting into this environment 10 probably right around the first part of '84.
11 Q
Okay.
12 Are you a degreed engineer?
13 A
Yes, I am.
14 Q
And what degree?
15 A
Electrical engineering.
16 Q
You have a Master's Degree?
17 A
No.
r Yi 18 Q
Do you have any formal training in computer installation 5j 19 and so forth?
I r
20 A
My background, I graduated from Purdue in '71.
I went 21 through Navy Nuclear Power School, went through
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Guided Missile School.
Was off on a ship for a while.
22 23 And then I worked :with the Naval Technical Data 24 System for three years with computers.
So, that was 25 more or less the fundamental.
7 1
Q The emphasis of your electrical engineering degrees, 2
is that geared toward computer science versus the other 3
disciplined electrical engineering?
4 A
It's pretty general.
5 Q
Okay.
6 Were you involved With the Data 7
General -- it's my understanding that Data General 8
physically installed the system, am I correct?
9 It was their technicians that actually 10 installed it, is that correct?
11 A
They were intimately involved in it.
We worked with them.
12 Q
You yourself was intimately involved with that?
13 A
Detroit Edison was very much involved.
5
~
14 Q
Okay.
15 And your office was obviously the 16 main li'ne of supervision and so forth?
I 17 A
That't. correct.
5 l
18 Q
Okay.
5
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19 A
I guess frcxn that prospective, this office automation ir 20 was the first real dealing that we had with Data General 21 outside of the OEM environment.
Which is basically l'
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going out to a vendor, and buying a product from the 22 23 vendor.
The vendor comes in and does all of your 24 installation, and trains you on how to get, how to use 25 what it is he has brought in.
8 1
This involved, we went out and wrote 2
a contract of Data General.
They delivered the 3
equipment, it was up to us to get it installed.
We had 4
their field engineers and their system engineers in 5
working with us to install it and bring it up.
6 Q
As far as the software, did you get involved in the 7
actual creation of the software, and the implementation 8
of it?
8 A
Not the creati6n of'it.
CEO, that is Comprehensive 10
. Electronic Office, that is a product of Data General.
11 Q
Did they give you formal training in the use of that 12 software?
13 A
We sent two or three people out for training.
14 Q
Did you yourself go?
15 A
No.
l 1%
Q Do you have in your opinion a full understanding of the
[
capabilities of that system?
17 1
I 18 A
As much as anybody, ij Q
I'm going to show you a document, it was created by a 18 20 Mr. Joe Korte.
Are you familiar with him, he's a 21 Detroit Edison employee?
?
l A
I know his name, I don't know him personally.
22 23 Q
It was created, to my understadding, in September 30, 24 1985.
And I want to show you this document.
25 And can you review it, it's not too
9 1
long, can you take a look at it.
Have you seen that 2
document.?
3 A
I've seen that document, or something a little very d
similar.
I have received a copy of that document, 5
Q At the time of its creation?
6 A
At about that time frame.
7 Q
Even though it don't indicate on the document header t: hat 8
was near to you, that you obviously saw a Xerox copy or 9
something?
10 A
Right.
The document header you're looking at there, okay, without the information,it tells me that that came i
12 out of Joe Korte's ac eint.
I have to just say that based 13 on who he mailed '
would have come out as a copy, 14 correct.
15 Q
Directing your atte...._..:o this document, Mr. Korte 16 states in it and I'm summarizing that he researched several j
sources, and that he came up with the following reasons 17 Vi 18 why theCEO should not be used for handling safeguarding i
Oj 19 information.
8 I
20 And the first one that he says is 21 that the system is not self-contained within the
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facility.
We have four lines that go downtown.
22 23 To your knowledge, is that true?
24 A
I don't believe that to be true.
2s Q
And why?
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A Well, the reason I don't believe that to be true, is 2
that at that point in time, we did not have four lines 3
connected to the CEO that went downtown.
4 Now, part of that deal is with an 5
understanding of the hardware software.
CEO is a software 6
application that runs on the hardware.
The four lines 7
that he's talking about are a separate system not part of 8
the CEO.
9 And let me finish that so that you 10 know what I'm talking about.
The four lines was set up 11 in order to enable the terminal connected to that computer 12 to emulate, or to act like a standard terminal connected 13 to the corporate computer system.
14 And those lines were basically 15 enabling you to dial into the corporate computer.
They l
were something that you could go out with and they 15
[
17 weren't part of the CEO system.
CEO could not use those ii 18 lines.
5 i
j Q
So, we're basically the reason for these interviews is 18 i
r 20 that there's an allegativn that safeguard information was 21 entered into the CEO system via a terminal in Mr. Wayne 7
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Hastings' office.
22 23 So, what you're saying is that that 24 terminal was not connected to any of these lines that 25 would go downtown?
l l
11 l
1 MR. HICKEY:
You have to answer out 2
loud so she can take it down.
3 THE WITNESS:
Oh, okay.
No, what 4
I'm saying is that those lines had nothing to do with 5
CEO.
They weren't part of.
6 From a physical hardware point of view, 7
you can look at it and say, welI,'it's part of that.
8 When you look at the internals of it, 9
it wasn't part of it.
The two didn't talk to each other.
10 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
It's my understanding that 11 ther&'s offsite capabilities of the CEO?
12 MR. HICKEY:
How?
13 Q
0 y Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
In September of '85, 14 November of '85, if you're using the terminale 15 specifically let's narrow it down to the terminal in i
16 Mr. Hastings' office.
I 17 Could the information being inputted i
1 i
i 18 in that terminal be accessed from another terminal off-site?
f 19 A
In a round about way, if you had everything lined up a
20 right, you could do it.
By everything lined up right, 21 there was one line that had the capability to come in from G_
g the outside.
And there were, I suppose, several reasons 22 23 why that would th so.
24 If we needed service on a system, if 25 we had a particular sof tware product provided At a vendor,
. m
12 i
i 1
and we're having a problem with that product, the vendor 2
has the capability of dialing in and taking a look at 3
that pr6blem.
i 4
Q Would a superuser have access to that?
5 A
Well, let's get through the process and then I'll get 6
onto a superuser.
7 MR. MADEDA:
Just a clarification point e
If the vendor could dial into it, 9
you mean the company that installs that system could dial 10 into?
11 THE WITNESS:
Let me talk about how 12 it works.
i 13 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
14 THE WITNESS:
You may or may not 15 need to use the board to explain the process, j
For somebbdy to dial'in the process, 16 17 you have to have the phone line coming in, the phone ii 18 line has to be connected to an active modem.
And the modem 19 then goes into what we call an electronic switch.
Ir 20 And then an electronic rwitch 21 connects to several computers in the room.
Now, in order 2
{
-- the standing order is that the modem is disabled at 22 23 all times.
And that's a fact.
24 How, first thing that has to happen 25 is the person calling in has to call the computer room
13 1
operator, you need a phone number and who you're talking 2
to, to get that line opened up.
3 For the computer room operator to l
4 actually open the line up, I have to authorize it.
I 5
will call the operator and say that so and so is going s
to be calling in and to do some work, and we want when 7
they call fn,we? want to enable that modem.
B Now, in addition to that, there was 9
some six to ten people, Frank Agosti, Mr. Jens, those 10 type people that were on a list that said that these 11 people are preauthorized.
It was a very small number, j
12 t
If it was one of those people then 13 they could call in and' have that operator close that.
14 Now, for those people to call in, 15 the only thing that would have had to happen is that 16 they would need a terminal to call to use to actually i
3 17 access the system, which I also had the terminal, a i
18 portable te.rminal that had the capability.
2 19 So, the answer is yes, you could do it.
5 20 3
You had to know the number for the computer room, you had i
j to get ahold of that person.
That person had to then 21 r
22 physically'enhble the modem.
Otherwise, the rationale 23 for that was that if I had a hacker out there, that 24 kind of just went to the whole exchange with the computer, 2s would find out I had a modem out there let me take the v.
14 1
next step.
2 So, we deliberately had the modems 3
turned off so that the hacker wouldn't find the number 4
accidentally.
5 MR. MADEDA:
So, if Frank Agosti i
B called in, what would happen for him to get a line?
}
7 THE WITNESS:
For him to actually p,
8 get a line, he would have to call the computer operator 8
and say he wanted to, and ask them to enable it.
Then j
10 he would have to know the other phone number and call in.
j 11 And then he would have to have the account and a password l
12 i
on this electronienswitch.
i l
13 I
MR. HICKEY:
And you skipped one j
14 t
thing.
He would have had to come to you first.
I 15 THE WITNESS:
Right.
f 16 MR. HICKEY:
And he would have to
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come to you first to get authorized, and say would you l
h 18 issue me a portable terminal, because I'm going to be s
j in New York, and I'm going to want to call in, is that 18 i
20 right?
21 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
r 22 MR. HICKEY:
And then going through 23 the steps, he's got that now, he calls -- he's already 24 authorized with the computer operator?
25 THE WITNESS:
He's not got the terminal l l
l
\\
l 15 1
and he's authorized with the computer operator and he 2
has to call the computer operator.
So, the 3
authorization is there, he has to call them, they have d
to. turn it on.
And then he has to dial into the number 5
and log onto the electronic switch.
Logging on,Lyou have 6
to have the account, which you've got to put in, you've
'7 got to respond to that.
And you've got to put in the 8
password.
And that password will then get you to the 9
computer.
10 Now, at that point, he's got to 11 actually get to the computer.
Now he's got to have 12 another account and password to log onto the computer 13 itself.
14 Now, that account and password have is to have privileges enabled on it.
Before say Frank Agosti 2
actually operated it.
He has to go onto an account that 9
l 17 has modem privilege, which says this particular account i
te g
can actually dial in from the outside using the modem, i
19 because it picks up the fact that it's coming through a f
20 modem.
ij It also have to have what we call 21 i
22 a VCCN privilege, virtual ponsole which than.. allows him 23 to call back to his host computer.
24 Now, the computer environment we're 25 talking about had some 23 computer total there.
And the
l#
l 1
16 l
l computer that he dialed into was not the one that his 1
2 account was on.
3 So now, he has to now take the next d
step which is to call his host computer. And that says 5
that the network has to be up and running.
6 He has to call his host computer.
7 When he finally gets back to his host computer, now he 8
has to log on there again, which is another account 8
password.
That finally gets him to his account.
10 MR. HICKEY:
And only his?
THE WITNESS:
Right.
So, there 12 is -- the answer to your question was yes.
But, I wanted 13 to go through the process.
14 MR. HICKEY:
Let me just see if I 15 understand.
16 That's not the four lines that Mr.
17 THE WITNESS:
No, that is not.
1 18 i
MR. HICKEY:
That Mr. Kazmar a
j 19 started talking about.
What you described doesn't relate i
20 i
to the four lines?
ij 21 THE WITNESS:
Those four lines existed i
22 at that time to address a totally different issue.
23 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
What was the issues that 24 they addressed?
25 A
That addressed the issue of I wanted the Data General
17 1
network to replace a hodge-podge of terminals, we have 2
many different types of terminals down there, all 3
accessing either Data General or the Corporate System.
4 What I wanted to do is say, I have s
one terminal sitting on my desk and that will serve my 6
needs regardless of What computer system I have to access i
that.
8 That gave me the capability with the 9
terminal sitting on my desk, to go through the system 10 and dial into the corporate computer.
That's all that 11 that gave me.
12 Q
Let me ask you this then.
13 If you're using a CEO terminal 14 specifically, the one that was in Mr. Hastings' office, 15 the software that allow you to edit a document and put 16 itin there, that's not contained within that terminal; 17 am I correct in saying'that?
{
18 g
In other words, when you punch i
19 something in, it has to go to a main computer somewhere 1
20 3
that actually does what you're punching in, right?
i j
21 A
Now, that's where I., aid that we had 23 computers at 22 the time.
Those 23 computers were distribbted about.the 23
, tee, 24 Q
Are you talking about the Monroe, at the site?
20 A
The Fermi site itself.
And from that prospective, with
1 18 this site, our system was self-contained.
We had evarything 2
that we needed to do the computing that we wanted to 3
do with that, it was inthe Data General environment, d
Q So when Mr. Hastings' secretary, Cindy Cody was inputting 5
that document, the signals stayed within the site.
In 8
other words, he actually activated a computer?
7 A
It was more confined than that.
That stayed within the l
8 physical area of GTOC.
1 9
Q Is there a computer in GTOC7 10 A
Yes.
11 MR. MADEDA:
How many other terminals 12 are there in GTOC that are the size bf Mr:-Hastings' 13 terminal?
14 THE WITNESS:
At that time, I think 15 that there were 12 connected to that unit.
We have a i
16 Very dynamic system down there.
And to try to capture it j
17 at any one time and recall exactly what it looked like i
18 i
is rather difficult But, that unit was configured with a
j 19 12 terminals.
I 20 i
MR. MADEDA:
Would any of those 12 21 terminals have been on the specific security area of I
22 GTOC, where the security department was stationed?
23 THE WITNESS:
At that point in time, 24 I cannot possibly'.be absolutely certain.
I know later 2s we put some overtin Health Physics Area over there.
19 i
Whether that was before or after, I don't know.
2 MR. MADEDA:
I don't' recall seeing
]
3 any more than three or four in the security area at any 4
time.
5 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
6 MR. MADEDA:
So, at least from my 7
observation.
8 Q
(By Mr. Kaemar. continuing):
Okay.
9 The second point in the memo was 10 cnd I'm quoting --
11 MR. MADEDA:
Maybe we can go back 12 to one point.
13 The other remaining units of the 14 23, those are located in the NOC7 15 THE WITNESS:
The NOC, the TAC, the 16 AIB, the OSB/0BA area.
=
j 17 HR. MADEDA:
And you mentioned with 18 y
same level of difficulty this information could be 1
19 transmitted to those, or did you -- maybe you should l
20 clarify that?
f 21 THE WITNESSs I didn't say that.
22 MR MADEDA:
How vould it get beyond 23 the 12 that was in the GTOC area?
24 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
25 The only way that it gets beyond the m
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2e 4
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20 1
12 and this gets tothe CEO itself.
2 The CEO System has an electronic 3
mail feature on it.
It has word processing, electronic-filing and a calendar.
5 I thihk'the main issues that we are 6
talking about are the filing, mailing, and word 7
processing.
s MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
9 THE WITNESS:
The mailing feature 10 allows you to take a document that exists on your system and mail it to other people who are on your distribution 12 list, or your mail list.
13 MR. MADEDA: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS:
And that's part of this 15 whole network that I mentioned.
The network is comprised i
16 of local area ne' works, using Ethernec.
c a
n Q
(By Mr. Kazmar. continuing):
That's accurate, I take it?
E 18 A
That is a -- I don't remember the ANSI.
That is a g
i 19 standard definition.
I And I would have to look at exactly j
20 what's the ANSI standard number is for that.
But that's i
j an ANSI standard that conforms to.
And the other part 21 22 of that is X.25 using a Packer Switch.
So we got 23 basically within a building of 10 mega Pts a data 24 transmit break.
25 l MR. MADEDA:
Getting back to the f
...----.-,.,,,,,.,-,..n,--.-,n,
21 1
bottom line here.
Of those 23 units, how difficult would 2
it be for any of those people to access what Wayne 3
Hastings would have put on his CE0?
d THE WITNESS:
It would have been 5
almost the same level.
6 HR. MADEDA :
As if it was coming 7
down here?
8 THE WITNESS:
Well, let's talk about 9
what it would take to do that.
Because the process to 10 get over there would require me first of all -- let's say if I were going to do it.
I would have to know his 12 account and password.
If I don't know his account and 13 passwurd, I'm going to get stopped.
So if I started out from my terminal 15 which sits over in the NOC and I'm onthe computer.
The i
16 first thing I got to do ia I have to get into a mode,
[
U where I can actually call another host.
ii 18 I would go through what's called 8j 19 CLI, and I would type in a command to call his computer.
Ir 20 So I have to know what computer he's on.
21 Now, I would have to go down and call 2
{
that specific terminal, or his computer.
Now that allows 22 23 me to go through the network, takes care of getting me 24 over there, and it comes up and it says 100 GTOC, 2s whatever the name of the system is.
22 i
1 MR. HICKEY:
That's not his terminal 2
that you're talking about.
That's the computer to which 3
his terminni is hooked up?
4 THE WITNESS:
That is the computer 5
to which he's hooked to.
6 MR. HICKEY:
Okay.
Keep going.
7 THE WITNESS:
Now, assuming everything 8
is up and running, I call the cmputer.
Now, it's t
9 please log on.
Now, I have to get onto,I've got to 10 know his account and password.
If I don't know his 11 account and password I'm thsically lost.
12 MR. HICKEY:
Do they change accounts 13 and pasawbrds reutinely or regularly?
14 THE WITNESS:
The users usually 15 change.
i 16 MR. MADEDA:
Is there any specific l
" I policy concerning account and passwords when to change, y
E 18 how to change and who changes them?
sj 19 THE WITNESS:
We can put the ir 2o information out on a somekhat intermittant basis, 21 requesting people to change the password periodically, e
{
22 reminding them.
23 MR. MADEDA:
Is there any 24 verification that your organization does that to assure 25 the people follow those directions /
l
23 1
THE WITNESS:
Not really.
2 MR. MADEDA:
So Wayne could have had 3
the sama account and pasar brd fromthe inception of the 4
system.
s Q
(By Mr. Karmar, continuing):
Isn't it true that a 6
superuser could also actually access somebody's code, 7
is that my understanding?
8 A
Okay.
We can talk about superusers.
t 9
Superuser has the.bility to go in 10 and look at --th'ere's a file in there that has a list 11 of here's the password that goes with that account.
12 And the superuser can once it gets on 13 a machine, can then execute some commands that allows him 14 to take a look and see what's in there.
ts Now, one of the things:bhcause the 16 issue of superuser privileges and what a superuser may 3
17 or may not do came up fiy before this issue came up.
i ii 18 And what we had instituted was we turned ona feature tj 19 called logging, ii 20 Now, what logging does for us, it 21 keeps track of what a superuser does.
It's not a blow
{
22 2 y blow account,but it tells me if he went in and i
23 accessed the paser brd table.
24 MR. HICKEY:
If a superuser lobks 25 at the data to -determine what the passwords were for the i
24 1
various accounts, I understood you to say there would 2
be a record that he had done that?
3 THE WITNESS:
Right.
So that would come out to me and my operations people had the 1
s responsblility of reviewing the logs ona regular 6
3 hsis to see is there anything in there that needs to be 7
looked at.
8 MR. HICKEY:
Who are the superusers, 9
1 and why are they,what 's their rolo?
10 THE WITNESS:
Superusers are a group of people, 7. call my system engineers.
Their 12 responsibilities go into all of the system programming 13 activities required to keep the system actually running.
14 They will go in and write what we 15 call macros.
Small programs they will do some assembling l
level programming.
'8 I
17 They will do such things as monitor i**
18 computers is another of the things.
They go out anc l
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allocate disc space.
So, they have the ability to go f
out and do a lot of things.
21 g
MR. HTCKEY : Do they have instructions, 22 i
directions ab ut circumstances under which they are allowed or authorized to get into other people's 24 accountP7 25 THE WITNESS:
I'd have to look at
25 1
specifics,, 'there are instructions f or that.
Ana 2
generally they're not going into an account unless 3
scnebody is actually requested it.
I've got a problem.
4 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
How many are there?
s A
Five or six.
6 Q
Are they located downtown here or at the site?
7 A
No, they are all at the site.
Now, I guess the other 8
thir I need to say is I have a computer operator group.
9 My cceputer operators, because they operate the cceputer 10 itself, have the capability of superuser, althou' h their g
M superuser privileges are turned off, they would have to 12 delibera~.ely turn them on.
13 0
Wnere are they located?
14 A
They are located in the computer center itself.
15 Q
Which is where?
16 A
AT Fermi.
So, again it's a s61f-contained; operation.
[
Q What kind of lines are connected frcan the terminals i
I 18 to the computer, are tney phone lines?
Ej 19 A
Say that again.
Ir 20 0
I'm trying to get this down to my level.
Some of this I
21 I'm missing.
So I want you to be patient with me.
2
{
22 A
No problem.
23 0
You have a terminal and it's communicating with the 24 ccuputer obviously because that's wht.re the sof tware is i
l 25 at that actually handles the information that's inputted.,
i
l 26 1
am I correct in saying that?
2 A
Yes.
Let me draw a picture.
3 0
If you do draw, you will have'to explain it to get it on 4
the recora.
I want to get down -- what I'm trying to 5
get at is when you punch a key at a terminal and we're
~
6 specifically talking about the one in MracEastings.'. u 7
office, that's communicating with a computer?
8 A
Right.
Let me look at that and go from his terminal.
9 Q
Okay.
10 A
And this is --
11 Q
That's the CRT in Mr. Hastings' office.
12 MR. HICKEY:
Can I interrupt and 13 make a suggestion.
14 Do you want to go off the record 15 for a few moments, so that you can have an informal 16 dialogue with Mr. Pipis?
17 MR. KAZMAR:
That might be a good l
18 idea.
5
{
18 MR. HICKEY: And at the end, when Ir 70 you understand it, we'll go back on the record and ask 1
21 him a question or two to summt.*ize what he 'ust said.
"2
{
L2 MR. KAZMARt Let the record reflect 23 that we're going to go off to discuss some of the details 24 and then we'll came back on.
25 (Brief discussion off the record)
27 1
O (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Mr. Pipis, in order to avoid 2
getting into a lot of technical specifications of the 3
CEO system and so forth, to your knowlecge, is it possible 4
to access the CEO system from off-site location?
l 5
A Yes.
6 Q
It is.
7 And of f-site, I'm ref erring to --
P you want to explain what off-site would mean?
9 MR. MEDED A:
Your context of off-site 10 is of f the physical boundaries of the Fermi II.
How can
)
11 I put it I want to say exclusionary, but you're not going 12 to know what I mean by that.
13 The Fermi II where the reactor is i'
14 located area, and it's ajoining a couple acres each way.
15 That's what you consiaer of f-site, 16 anywhere outside Cf that?
[
U THE WITNESS:
I'm saying off-site, i
I 18 to be basically anything else'ont of the total perimeters 8
19 of the Fermi installation.
i r
20 MR. MEDEUA:
That 's a g ood -- we ' ll 21 use that definition.
0 22 l
Q (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
And where is it possible 23 to access the system other than on-site?
24 When you say it's possible to access 25 off-site, whore is the accessibility to your knowledge?
w --
e y
f. -.. ~ -.- - -- -, - - _ - _.. _.,
y
,.~,---m
-_.m_.
28 i
A Okay.
2 The one from the dial in capability --
3 was that on the record when we went through that whole 4
process?
5 MR. HICKEY:
You described on the 6
record how it works.
7 THE COURT:
Okay.
8 MR. HICKEY :
I don't know that you
)
8 stated your conclusion.
10 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
You seen the process that I described, 12 calling the operator with that authorization procesa and
'3 dialing in anc knowing the series of accounts and passwords t
'd and the process to get into your account, it is possible 15 frcan outside to get in.
l 16 MR. HICKEY:
And where woul& that 17 location be?
Ic there any one specific or are you saying V
I
'8 anywhere outsioe?
E l
THE WITNESS:
Anywhere.
fr 20 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, contir.uing) :
By using commercial telephonen?
21 A
You weuld dial in on a commercial telephone.
2 1
h 22 MR. HICKEY:
Now, let me ask my
- 3 question before we leave that.
24 As you underistand the terminology 25 as a cenputer person, not as a CEO expert.
1
n 29 1
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
2 MR. HICKEY:
Does the dial in capacity 3
make this CEO system a self-contained system, or not a 4
self-contained system?
5 THE WITNESS:
I would say it's self-j 6
contained, that would be my opinion.
7 MR. HICKEY:
Why do you say"that?
8 THE WITNESS:
Well, I would say that 8
because of the limited use of that.
There is only one 10 line, it's there for very specific reasons.
It's not 11 open to the public.
It's not smething that stays there 12 open, but only something that can be used if it has to be l
13 used.
(
MR. HICKEYr Is that terminoloJy of 14 l
15 self-contained system, one that is usec by computer people'
{
in describing the c m puter system?
16
)
U THE WITNESS:
Let me explain what I S
[
18 would mean by self-contained.
t
}
l' I would cescribe the self-containec I
20 computer system as a computer system which has all of the 21 elements that I need to be able to do the job that I want 2
[
to do.
Whether that's word processing, or I want to do 22 23 cacne mathematical processing, saves this stuf f on files, 24 prints the stuf f out.
25 I have under my control 6nd within
30 1
a defineable area, all of the facilities that I need to j
2 perf orm that.
3 MR. HICKEY:
At Fermi?
4 THE WITNESS :
At Femi.
That would 5
be how I would get the term self-contained.
6 MR. HICKEY:
But, apart fran the 7
di&l-in system, is there any other way to access the 8
CEO system f rcan of f-site?
9 THE WITNESS :
Okay.
to Along around Septe:nber, we had 11 installed a capability. Tor Heidel.
12 O
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
You're, talxing about 13 September this year or last year?
i 14 A
'85.
It was right in conjunction with Fermax
'85, just 15 prior to that.
We were looking to provide a way to f
communicate what vase going. ion: curing emergency exercises 16 f
with the president's office.
17 Y
I 18 And working with the communication 5
f group, what we came up with, was a long telephone system 18 i
t 20 that a smart terminal that had the ability to ietaulate or 21 look like a data terminal.
2
{
And that went in on what we call 22 23 an internal dialing u. nit.
It was a ecunpany phone line 24 as opposed to a canmercial phone line.
j 25 Q
Okay.
j
l 31 1
Q Did you ever discuss the off-site capability of CEO 2
system with Mr. Hastings?
3 I'm talking about the time frame 4
back in late 19857 5
A Not that I would recall on tnose issues.
6 Q
How about Mr. Piana?
7 MR. HICKEY:
I don't know if you're 8
including your answers the memorandum that you looked at 9
earlier dated September 30th.
10 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
1 On that one was those notations on 12 there, I remember seeing it.
Ana I'm not sure how the
'3 response went back.
I just recall the process that I
'd looked at it, and what it stated wasn't correct.
And that 15 information went back to Wayne Hastings.
l Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Did you do it by formal
)
memorandum?
'8 A
No, I don't know if it was just a phone check.
Part of E
f what I tried to do at the time was try to get ahold of
'8 1
E Joe Korte.
21 Q
Dic you?
2
{
22 A
I tried to, but I don't ra. member talxing to him.~
23 Q
But, you ao remember some sort of conversation with Mr. Hastings in regards to this?
A Sanething to the effect of telling him that what was on
_.._.,_._._l
32 there really wasn't correct.
2 MR. HICKEY:
Let me just ask.
3 Are you confident that you spoke 4
directly to Mr. Hastings as opposed to talling sczneone 5
else to tell Mr. Hastings, or having some indirect contact?
6 THE WITNESS:
I can't say with 7
confidence.
I remember that, I remember seeing that, anc 8
I remember my reaction to it.
I remember trying to get 8
ahold of Joe Korte.
'8 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Did you ever create a formal document with the formal response frczn yourself in regard 12 to this memorandtzn we're talking about?
'3 A
No.
Q Never did?
15 A
No.
l 16 MR. HICKEY:
Do you know where f
Mr. Korte got that information he put in that memo?
i 18 THE WITNESS:
It's my understancing i
8 he got that information from Jim Mollar.
20 MR. HICKEY:
What's Mr. Mollar's 21 position?
22 THE WITNESS:
Jim Mollar is a business 23 analyst by title.
He functions more or less as a business 24 technician.
25 MR. HICKEY:
Was he technically
33 knowledgeable about operations of this CEO system ccnputers, 2
access to it and so on?
3 THE WITNESS:
No.
Q (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing):
You obviously have disagreemer ts 5
with the six points in this memorandta?
6 MR. HICKEY:
You haven't addressed all of them.
8 MR. KAZMAR:
Yes, well, we talked 8
abcast the first one.
10 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
You don't agree with the four lines that go downtown.
You're saying that refers 12 to something totally different?
'3 A
Right.
Q But, you do agree to the first one that says that the 15 system is not self-containec within the f acility, that l
you agree with?
16 MR. HICKEY:
No, he said the i
operation.
E f
THE WITNt:SS2 No.
I said my Ir 20 understanding of self-containe.c was I woula say it is 21 self-contained.
And that's not looking at anything 22 i
tnat's reference on there.
That's my understa6 ding of what 23 the word self-contained means.
24 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Let's go to item two then.
25 "The lines are unprotected phone lines because n-~
, - --,- + -. -,, -,
._--,----,--,,--,,.-,,,,ww,---
~
i 34 they are not protected by any incription 2
device",
3 Do you agree with that?
4 MR. HICKEY:
Let's see if I.have a 5
copy of that so he can see.
6 THE WITNESS:
.My only concern with' the issue of incription is why is that relevant?
7 8
MR. HICKEY:
Is that a reference to 8
the line not being incriptive to the four lines that are
'O described in the paragraph above?
II Because if it is, that doesn't relate 12 to CEO, right?
13 THE WITNESS:
Right.
MR. KAZMAR:
It appears that it
'8 refers to the lines that go downtown.
l MR. HICKEY :
In other words, if nirnber 16 f
two says that the four lines addressed in nummer one are
'7 1
unprotected, you would say well that may or may not be, I
'8
'8 but it's not taiking about the CEO systent.
I r
20 THE WITNESS:
That's right.
I don't 21 see that it's relatec.
7 22 MR. MADEDA:
You have no knowledge h
as to any of the specific Federal or code Federal rate 23 24 requirement for safeguard information?
2s so you're speaking fran general
\\
35 1
computer language and knowledge?
2 THE WITNESS:
That's correct.
l 3
MR. MADEDA:
Ok ay.
4 MR. HICKEY:
I think that nurnber j
5 three, the superusers, explain that.
So, unless you have 6
the specific questions, I don't know that he addressed 7
number four, if you want him to wastebasket.
8 MR. KAZMAR:
I don't think that's 8
necessary.
Q (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
You're familiar with the 10 requirements of the handling of safeguard information, 12 are you?
13 A
Not really.
I reviewed a tape on safeguard information later in understanding of what the safeguard information 15 is.
Do you agree witn the ccaments, particularly l
referring to paragraph two it says, "The following 16 f
reasons we could use CEO regarcing safeguard information 37 ii 18 regardless --
5 f
MR. HICKEY:
Where are you?
MR. KAZMAR:
Paragraph two.
21 Q
(By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Regardless of the reasons, 7
{
even if the reasons aren't all correct from your knowledge, 22 23 if you have any regarding safeguard information, do you 24 agree with the conclusion that the CEO should not be used 25 for safeguard information?
36 1
MR. HICKEY:
Do you knw whether it's 2
proper or not to use the CEO for safeguard information 3
under the NRC regulations?
4
'n!E WITNESS :
At that point in time?
5 MR.
HICKEY:
Yes.
Q (By Mr. Kazmar, continuing) :
Did you agree with it at 6
7 that point in time?
8 MR. HICKEY:
If you know.
Q (By Mr. Kaz. mar, continuing):
Or, if you know.
8 A
Without knowing what his criteria was, I could not agree 10 that the system coulon't be suitable.
Q So, frem your recollection, would this -- when you reviewed 12 13 this menorandum, which was sme time in September of 1985,
'd or in October of being that wnich was written September 1
'8 30th, you didn't agree with that conclusion ~ et the time?
l 16 A
That's right.
l
'7 MR. MADEDA:
What did you base that V
'8 conclusion on, just general security knowledge, or just l
general cmputer knowledge?
fr 20 THE WITNESS:
No, just looking at it 21 in terms of if this was the basis for his decision, 2
g basically saying here are sme facts, and I can't agree 22 2
with the facts stated.
That I can't agree with his 24 conclusion, that was the problem I had.
I would have 25 needed something else.
i 37 Q
(By Mr. Kazaar, continuing):
Did you ever research it any 1
2 further in conversation, or informal conversation or formal 3
documentation.
4 Did you ever follow up on this 5
memorandtsa in any way?
A Other than trying to get ahold of Joe Korte.
And that not 6
happening, I went on with other things and it didn't appear 7
8 to be an issue at that time.
Did Mr. Piana ever talk to you about it?
Q 10 Do you know who he is?
A Oh, definitely.
I can's say, I don't know, I don't 12 ramentber right now.
'3 How about Mr. Leech, the former director of security, did Q
'4 he ever approach you and ask you to do a study, or ask you
'6 informally of what your opinion is?
l 16 A
I don't recall him ever asking me.
f I
MR. MADEDA:
Getting back to the one I
'8 question on the licensoes response, that was a response t
l that was cated June 19, 1986, which talks about the I'
fr 20 specific relations and licensees response when part of the 21 licensees response was determined that it was possible 2
h to access the system from off-site location.
22 23 Your definition of off-site is 24 outside the boundaries of the Fermi II site?
THE WITNESS:
Right.
38 i
1 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
Are there tertainals 2
on site that you coula access the system from?
3 Obviously, other than Wayne's terminal 4
itself, since it was put in that system?
5 THE WITNESS:
At that point in time, 6
yes.
7 MR. MADEDA:
What would those have 8
been?
9 A
That would have been involved the process as I described 10 with my terminal and going through this calling process.
11 MR. MADEDA:
Would th4t have.been the 12 same process as to the one line going downtown to the 13 facility?'
14 THE WITNESS:
Similar.
15 MR. MADEDA:
Okay.
f So, for all practical purposes, we 16 f
can say that the -- as a response says,it war determined U
1 18 it was possible to access the system from off-site, it was 2
8 l'
also possible to access the system frcan on-site, on-site I
r 20 meaning the entire boundary of the Fermi II f acility?
21 MR. HICKEY:
I mean there were 2
22 g
stations all over the facility.
23 MR. MADEDA:
What I'm bringing up is ---
24 THE WITNESS:
That's what I said.
25 MR. MADEDA:
Are on-site facilities i
39 secured f acilities?
2 Now, that's beyond what we're talking 3
about the specifics here, I think it's going to play a d
part in this.
5 For instance, it's a facility, is the 6
terminal in Wayne Eastings' office secured -- well, okay.
7 Other terminals that on 'the f acility, 8
or on -- excuse me.
Other terminals that are on-site 8
secured in the same physical manner as the terminal in
'O Wayne Hastings' office, that's what I'm getting to.
But, that's beyond your specific 12 obviously axpertise, but that's the reason for asking the
'3 question.
14 1
I don't expect a response from you, 15 because I didn't ask a question.
16 MR. KAEMAR:
You got anything else, I
17 s
Terry?
V MR. MADEDA:
I don't think so.
EI 19 1
MR. HICKEY :
Let me get one other O
thing out.
EKAKINNTION 2
2 22 g
BY MR. HICKEY:
Q You testified earlier, Mr. Pipis, that in Septembe.r, in 24 connection with getting ready for an emergency planning 25 exercise, that was held at the Fermi, there was
40 1
installation made downtown in Detroit Edison Corporate 2
Headquarters of the terminal that could access the CEO 3
system, is that right?
4 A
That's right.
5 Q
Were you aware of any effort to set up such a terminat G
at an earlier time in which Mr. Hastings was involved?
7 A
Quite vividly.
There was an early,'it would have been 8
early '85, we had what we believed to be a direction from 9
McCarthy to install terminal to access to CEO in his 10 office.
11 Q
Who was the "we" being you in this direction?
12 A
We being myself, Hastings, Piana.
13 Q
And what happened?
14 A
Given that we understood that to be Mr. McCarthy's is desire, we initiateo the action with electrical system 16 to get the ccanmunication lines installed, and to
[
coordinate with his office!.
To locata a terminal and 17 y
i 18 a printer in his office.
5j 19 And we were down to within about a Ir 20 day doing it, we was like a. Thursday or Friday, wa. were 21 going to do it.
And it went off to Ann Arbor and came 2
{
back, I talked to Ed Edson af terwards, after the thing 22 23 happenoa, trying to find out really what's going on.
He 24 said they were coming bacx from Ann Arbor and he discussed 25 what was going on.
And it was at that point in time he
41 1
just put a cmplete stop on it, he didn't want that in his 2
- office, 3
Now, when it eme back the next 4
morning before I even got in, I guess it was Hastings and 5
Piana and Frank Agosti, and Wayne Jens had a little bit 6
down.
And the word basically that came back was fr a 7
McCarthy was, "I don't ever want to hear the tems CEO 8
on the 24th floor again in this company unless it's in ref erence to my title.'
8 i
10 Which kind of left us with the impression that that system is not to be up there.
l 12 0
Was Mr. Hastings aware of Mr. McCarthy's direction that 13 you shoula stop all efforts of installing all equipment on 14 the 24th floor?
15 A
Definitely, I was so directed.
l 16 0
I take it that it was an instance of scne embarrassment
[
and made an impact on the participants?
V I
18 A
very embarrassing.
And very significant impact it was.
5 18 0
All right.
1r 20 And then apparently there was some 21 change of heart, and it was later decided in Septernber of 2
{
1985 that either Mr. McCarthy or Mr. Heidel wanted to have 22 23 CEO capability in the executive office, is that right?
A Right.
I guess one thing, I guess a little further 25 emphasis is how strong that was.
There was another piece
_,_.--__,____--,-_..-_....---..,,.-_-,.._....-_.-_,-,._____l
i 42 that came out.
Tnere was a task force 'that was commissioned 2
by Chuck Heidel, I should have mentioned this earlier.
3 But, basically looking at the whole d
office autcznation for the company, in which time the 5
directive came out that nothing more woula be done in the 6
office autCIBation arena without the specific approval of 7
the task force.
8 Q
But, then apparently there was a decision to install the 8
equipnent in aboeat September 1985 on the 24th floor?
10 A
Right.
Q Was there any discussion about the extent to which the 12 installation of the equipnent in 'the executive of fice would
'3 or would not publicized, or be made known to the CEO user?
s A
There was a real deliberate --
15 Q
Decision.
f is A
Decision, right.
And a directive telling us we don't want to publicize the f act that that president is on the W
'8 system.
An issue was !any.
communications to.Heidel E
t 19 3
would go through Frank Agosti.
Ir M
And the reason that was important to 21 me was I had to make sure that my people did not put 22 i
Heidel's name on the directery.
23 Each account has access to a directory 24 and everybody that's on the system.
And it wa s, don ' t 25 put the name on that directory.
Don't make the information
-g-- - -, - -, -
-,,,,,,-g w
..,,7,,y
,v.y_
__y9-,,.4
,m-
-g,,y,c,y
__,7,w,p7g,
-v,-7p.yyy-,--
y
43 available.
2 Q
So, are you aware of any public di.ssemination to CEO users that the information as of the end of September. there was a CEO terminal on the 24th floor?
5 A
No, I'm not aware of any.
6 O
Did you ever have occasion to inf orm Mr. Hastings a
specifically there was such a terminal after the end of 8
September?
8 A
No.
10 MR. MADEDA:
How intimate is Wayne Hastings with the CEO system?
I 12 MR. HICKEY:
I don't think you can
'3 be any more specific.
MR. MADEDA:
For instance, everything that you have told us on concerning the security of the system, the items here, Wayne was well aware of all of I
17 l
that, on the operation of the system?
'8 MR. HICKEY:
Don't you think that 19 1
it might be fair to ask the witness smething more specific than to just say all of that, or all we discussed?
21 THE WITNESS: It's very difficult for 22 i
me to say Wayne would know anc Wayne wouldn't know.
23 Let me get back frca -- you've already 24 kind of been overwhelmed with a lot of the technical 25 aspects of this.
Without going into any more technical
44 1
aspects, I would like to convey how emplex this thing is.
2 And I need to do that, because I'm 3
not trying to say I'm a total expert, there are a lot of 4
things I can't answer about the system.
5 The problers that I have continually 6
run into, and this is even with Data General, who is the 7
vendor.
They don't know the answers to a lot of the 8
questions.
They'll dig into smething on a problem and 9
cme up with three or four answers.
And each one of them
'O right.
one of the good examples in terms of 12 peopic coming back with things maybe not good, is well,
'3 there are four lines out there. Well, sasebody that works for me says there are four lines out there.
True enough, is but what does it really mean.
How do you understand it?
l ne problem that I got above me and 16
'I below me, is what does that system really look like, V
I
'8 what would it do?
The vendor can tell me four different answers to the same questions.
fr 20 One of the things specifically got 21 into was Gary Pirtle was in when we first started looking
[
at do we have a problem here.
I had several different 22 23 answers from the specialist, and then it was a matter of 24 which one is really right, which one reflects what we're 25 doing.
45 1
To go above me and.to say what Wayne 2
or Piana would know from a technical point of view, no 3
I can't believe other than whatever I tell them way.
d at a point in time, I can't believe they would have 5
any deeper understanding.
6 MR. MADEDA:
Would Wayne had known 7
or could make the determination it was possible to 8
access the system from off-site locations if he had that 8
knowledge of the basic system that it could have been 18 accessed from another site location?
11 MR. HICKEY:
Did you say did he have 12 that knowledge?
1 13 MR. MADEDAs YeB.
14 MR. HICKEY:
If you know, you can 15 answer.
16 THE WITNESS:
I can't really say.
f 17 MR. KAZMAR:
Do you recall ever tellint i
I 18 him that it was off site at any point in time in Septernber, t
I
'8 October of 1985?
I t
20 THE WITNESS:
I don't recall talking 21 to him about that at that point in time.
7 h
Okay.
23 Mr. Pipis, have I organy NRC 24 representative threatened you in any manner, or offered 25 you any award in return for your statement?
.=-
-.,n
,w-
,n-,---,-.-,.-------,,n.->.,
46.
1 THE WITNESS:
No.
2 MR. KAZMAR:
Have you given the 3
statement freely and voluntarily?
4 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
5 MR. KAZMAR:
Is there anything further 6
we should add for the record?
7 THE WITNESS:
Not that I can think.
8 MR. KAZMAR:
h ank you.
9 (Interview concluded at 10 11:55 a.m.)
11 12 13 14 l
15 j
16 t
I 17 2
ii 18 8j 19 I
20 21 C
k 22 t
23 24 25
-. _ ~.. _. _ _ _ _ -. _. _ _. _. _ _ _, _ _ _ _ _
47 1
STATE OF MICHIGAN )
)
SS.
2 COUNTY OF WAYNE
)
3 CERTIF ICATE 4
I do hereby certify that the witness 5
whose attached interview was taken before me, in the above-6 entitled matter, was by me first duly cautioned and sworn to 7
testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth 8
in the cause aforesaid; that the testimony contained in said 9
interview was by me reducea to writing in the presence of upon 10 a typewriter.
The said interview is a true and correct 11 transcript of the whole of the testimony given by the said 12 witness aforesaid.
13 l
I do further certify that I an not 14 connected by blood or marriage with any of the parties or their 15 agents, and that I am not an employee of either of them, nor j
16 3
interested, directly or indirectly in the matter of i
17 l
controversy, either as counsel, attorney, agent or otherwise.
j 18 g
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto j
19 j
set my hand af fixed my notarial seal at Detroit, Michig an, r
20 county of Wayne, State of Michigan, this 18th day of 21 3
September, 1986.
?
22 S[\\ g 24 Deborah J. Nash,'CsR-2993, Notary Publie, Wayne County, Michigan My ccumission expires:
9-4-87
.