ML20151S213

From kanterella
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Partially Withheld Transcript of 860813 Investigative Interview W/S Thompson in Monroe,Mi.Pp 1-33
ML20151S213
Person / Time
Site: Fermi DTE Energy icon.png
Issue date: 08/13/1986
From:
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
To:
Shared Package
ML20151N259 List:
References
FOIA-88-227 NUDOCS 8808150106
Download: ML20151S213 (35)
v • d • e


Text

- - .. . - - ..

UN11ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

~

ORIGWAL l

IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO: i INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW l Information in this record was deleted in accordant ' with the freedom of informatiOII.

Act, exempti as 3  !

F0lA 39 4 ~l _

LOCATION: MONROE, MICHIGAN PAGES: 1_33 DATE: WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 13, 1986 l

Enc ur ntains SA RDS INFORMTION n Se ration This Psgo is ntrolled ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. 1 444 Capito Street Nhington, D.C. 20001 )i

~

3-86-006 oose I M~

8805150106 880630 MUNComm -- - O -'

PDR FOIA 3 MAXWELL 88-227 PDR -

. . - . . _ . , . . . . - , , . . ~ ~ . , . . . . . -

,22316 EDF-E ,

l I

l 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3

4 ..........----

)

s In the Matter of: )

)

6 The Interview of )

)

7 SAM THOMPSON ) .

)

8 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _)

9 to The Interview of SAM THOMPSON, taken si pursuant to Notice before me, Elizabeth Diann Ferguson-Evans, 12 Notary Public in and for the County of Wayne, State of Michigan, 13 at Fermi II Nuclear Power Plant, 3200 North Dixie Highway, 14 Monroe, Michigan, on Wednesday, August 13, 1986, commencling at is about 9:50 a.m.

16 17 APPEARANCES:

18 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION j Office of Investigations 39 Field Office Region III

' 797 Roosevelt Road i 20 Glen Ellyn, Illinois 60137 8

(By: James Kalkman, Esq., and Richard Kazmar, Esq.,

f 21 and Terry Madeda, Esq.)

ir A

22 PPearing on behalf of Nuclear Regulatory Commission 23 Elizabeth Diann Ferguson-Evans, CSR-1347 Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 25

n

' I N E X

- _ _D _ _

2 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 Sam Thompson 5 Examination By Mr. Kazmar 3 6

7 .

8 9

to 11 12 13 14 15 16 5 17 18 g

19 1

s

. 21 i

22 23 24 25 2

6 i Monroe, Michigan l 2 Wednesday, August 13, 1986 l l

3 At about 9:50 a.m. l l

l 4 _ _ _

5 l

6 22. KAZMAR: For the record, this is an l l

1 7 interview of Mr. Sam Thompson, who is employed by Detroit '

s Edison Company. l l

9 The location of this interview is the l l

10 Fermi II Nuclear Power Plant in Monroe, Michigan, 11 Present at this interview are

, 12 Sam Thompson; and for the NRC, Mr. James Kalkman, Investigato r l 13 Terry Madeda and Security Inspector,.mid Richard Kazmar, '

i 14 Investigator.

l 15 The subject matter of this interview 16 concerns the handling of Safeguards Information.

i 17 Mr. Thompson, please stand and raise 1

is your right hand.

12 20 S A M T H O M P S, O N, f 21 after having first been duly sworn to tell the truth, the i*

22 whole truth and nothing but the truth, testified upon his 23 oath as follows:

24 25 EXAMIMATION 3

l 1

. l

. 1 i BY MR. KAZMAR:

2 Q Mr. Thompson, when did you come on board with Detroit 3 Edison?

4 A November 3, 1980.

s Q What was your position at that time? i l

6 A Training Coordinator for the Security Department.  !

7 Q And in 1985; It's my understanding that you were appointed l e Assistant Director of Nuclear Security? l 9 A No.

to That was in 1984, ii Q And at that time, who was your first-line supervisor at 12 that time?

is A Stuart Leach.

14 Q Okay.

is At any point in time, did Mr. Leach 16 Leave?

i 17 A Yes, he did, i

l 18 Q When was this?

19 A September 1985.

l 2o Q Who replaced Mr. Leach?

f 21 A Wayne Hastings.

22 Q Do you know what Mr. Hastings's position was prior to 23 becoming director?

24 A He was the Director of Fiscal Management.

2s Q When you assumed the position of Assistant Director of f.

i Security, were you given any training regarding handling 2 of Safeguards Information?

3 A Not necessarily training classroom-type; but I was involved 4 in writing up our procedures ,

s Q Your knowledge of -- your knowledge regarding handling of a Safeguards Information, where would you say that you gained 7 that knowledge?

s A 10-CFR, Redguides, NRC --

e Q This is by your own reading and so forth?

10 A Yes.

11 And putting together packages for the 12 Safeguard program.

13 Q It is my understanding that Detroit Edison has a system i4 they call a CEO, the Comprehensive Electronic Office.

is can you explain to me when did that is ofstem come about?

s i 17 A Roughly, it came about the latter part of '83 '84, in that

, is area.

s is Q What does that system consist of, briefly?

a i 2o A Really what it is is just our inter-office mailing system.

f* 2 Q Okay.

22 A Tou know, wa can type messages to whomever we want that 23 has the CEO system.

24 Q Was there ever a study done by personnel of Detroit Edison 2s regarding the security of that system?

5 1 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .

i A Yes, there was.

2 I don't know how comprehensive you 3 want to say the study was done; but there were questions 4 raised as to the security of the system with any kind of s Safeguard Information.

e Q Okay.

7 A It was raised by a couple of our secretaries.

s Q Do you know what -- who they were?

e A One was Laura Simpson and the other one is -- I don't recall to her name.

ii Q Do you remember the nature of their concern?

12 A Yes.

13 The secretaries are the ones that 14 vent through the CEO training first; and the nature f6r the is concern was that it's not a secure system.

16 A lot of confidential informrtion

! 57 should not probably be put on there.

I la Q Would that include the Safeguard Information?

I

[ is A Oh, yeah.

l 20 Q Do you have any knowledge as to how they came to that 8

21 conclusion that it is not secure?

I

A Through their training that they were going, Data General, 22 23 PeoP l e were -- Data General was putting on the training for 24 the secretaries, the in-depth training.

2s Q Am I correct in saying that Data General --

6

t e l

1 A That's the company that has the equipment. l 2 Oh, they are the ones that installed it?

Q l 3 A Yes.

1 4

Q So would I be correct in saying that they would be '.knowledg-5 able, if in fact, the system is not secure? l 6 A Yes.

7 Okay.

Q 8 Do you know for a fact if it is secure 1

9 or not secure?

l 10 A I don't think it is secure. My personal belief, I don't.

11 Is there any document that you know of that exists where Q

12 it states if in f act the system is secure or not? l 13 A The only thing that I know that was sent out was a . letter 14 from Stu Leach indicating that the system should not be 15 utilized for safeguards because it was .not a secure system.

16 Do you recall when i.nat letter was issued?

Q y 17 A I believe it was in 1985.

I 18

Q Would you have access to that letter? Could you get a i
19 copy of it?

20 A

[ I think I can find it, yes, d

21 Q Okay.

t 22 Do you know, in fact, at that time 23 when a letter was issued, if Mr. Hastings had access to 24 that letter?

25 A The letter was cc'ed to him, to Wayne Hastings.

7

1 It was sent to Jim Piani, and cc'ed 2 to Wayne Hastings. Primarily becauss Jim Piani was the 3

Director of Administration when Hastings was the Assistant 4

Director of Administration.

5 Wayne Hastings was the individual who 6

was given the task to get the CEO system out to everybody.

7 He was pushing the system out.

a Q Are you aware of any requests by Mr. Hastings when he I e became Director of Security? Are you aware of any requests to by Mr. Hastings for an inquiry into the security of that 11 system? Specifically, a request to Mr. ,Korte to investigate?

12 A Yes, I am.

13 Let me show you a document.

Q It looks like a computer I 14 printout.

15 Yes , it is a CEO printout and it's i 16 Dated September 30, 1985.

i 17 i Did you evar See this?

18 j A Yes, I have.

19 Q Look -- i j 20 A I was cc'ed. I i l 21 Q This statement basically summarizes the reasons why the 22 CEO is not a secure facility; am I correct?

23 A Correct.

24 Q In about the mid of October of 1985, there was a security 2s incident at the Fermi II; am I correct?

8

l l

l l

l

' A Yes.

2 Q Are you familiar with that incident?

3 Yes, I am.

A 4

Q Okay.

5 Also by regulations, a five-day follo'w  !

6 up letter is required by the NRC7 7

A Correct. i l

8 Q Was the CEO system used to your knowledge for editing that )

8 letter?

10 A Yes, to my knowledge, it was used.

11 Q Can you explain to my -- me from your recollection as to l 12 how that came about?

'3 A The day before the five-day letter was due -- I l

14 Q Which was when? I 15 A Well -- l 18 Q Just -- like was that November 7th or something?

i 17 A Yes.

i

.i '

18 Well, it was November 6th.

18

{ Q Okay.

20 l A Joe Korte, Joe Conen from our licensing section, and myself 5

21 were in my office and we were doing the five-day letter.

22 Wayne came in and we were talking 23 about something else and Wayne commented about what we were 24 working on. I said the five-day letter; he asked when it 25 was due, and I said, "It's due tomorrow," which would have 9

. - . - . - . - ~ . - . - . - . - . . - . _ .

1 been the 7th.

2 He said we will never get it through 3 in time for the review cycle. I said, "I will just call 4 and get an entension."

s Q Call the NRC7 6 A Yes.

7 Q Oksy. -

8 A The Region.

9 He says, "No, we will put it on the io CEO and get a quick turnaround." I said, "No, we can't do 11 that. It's a Safeguard document, so it can not be put on 12 the CEO."

13 Then he just turned around and walked 14 out.

15 MR. MADEDA: Joe Korte was with you 16 during that conversation?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Joe Korte and i

g 18 Joe Conen.

19 BY MR. KAZMAR

l 20 Q Did Mr. Hastings at that time give any reason as to why f: 21 he was using the CE0?

22 A No. He did not say anything at all.

23 Q Did you object to any further comments, or make any further 24 comments that he should not use the --

25 A No. When I said that, he just turned around and walked out.

10

3 MR. MADEDA: Did Mr. Hastings acknowled ge 2

that you had told him that that document was going to be 3

safeguarded so he ccn't put that on the CEO or --

4 THE WITNESS: No. He did not say 5 anything at all.

6 MR. MADEDA: He did not either 7

acknowledge it or indicate he understood?

  • a THE WITNESS: No. Just -- he did not e so anything.

to MR. MADEDA: He just turned around 11 and walked out af ter you told him that?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 BY MR. KAZMAR:

i4 Q The fact that Mr. Hastings requested Mr. Korte to do an is inquiry into the escurity of the system, you could draw is an inference that he was aware of t.he fact that --

! 17 A Yes.

It goes back to before the request from Joe Korte.

is 6

When Wayne came in in September of '85, to one of the conversations that we were having, . Wayne was i

2o mentioning he was going to place all of our physical 8

25

security plans, contingency plans, procedures, everything 22 we had, on to the CEO system so the any changes we had ,

23 we could have quick turn around.

24 At that time, I advised him that we 25 could not do it because you can not put Safeguards on the CEO ,

11

l 1

He asked my why we could not and I pointed out to him the 2 10-CFR, and explained basically the same thing that .:oe had 3 explained to him, that outside lines, that's not on-site; l 4 and, you know, there are super-users and they can access it 5 real quick.

6 APParently, after that is when he 7 made the request that -- to Joe Korte t'o research it for a him.

9 Q Did he ever go ahead and put all this other information on to the system?

11 A No.

12 Q He did stop it then?

13 A We would not let him.

14 Q Okay.

15 At the time this occured in November 16 in regards to this five-day letter, when you realized that i 17 Mr. Hastings was not going to follow your advice, did you

. 18 at any point at that time consider going to another level 19

, of management and avising them of what was occuring?

( 20 A No.

! 21 Q May I ask why not?

i*

! 22 A Well, basically, the advice I give my supervisor, if he 23 deems not to listen to me.

24 Q In November there was a -- around Rovember I guess there 25 was an inspection, a safeguards inspection with a 12

. i Mr. Gary Pirtle; and at that time, Mr. .Pirtle recalls asking 2 Mr.lHastings about the CEO syste.m.

3 From Mr. Pirtle's recollection, 4 Mr. Hastings at that time, said that he was not aware that 5 the system was unsecure.

6 Do you have any idea as to why he 7 would tell Mr. Pirtle that the system was not secure, when, e in fact, all this had occured back in September?

I e e A No, I don't have any idea at all.

10 Q Has Mr. Hastings talked to you at all about this whole it situation?

12 A Once, is Q What did he say?

14 A Basically, he was just kind of angry of the fact that he is felt the NRC was going to double-dip us; that we had is already been given a violation for it and probably would

! 17 have to pay a fine for it.

I l 18 That now they are investigating it

is again.

j ro Q To your knowledge, is he aware of the fact that by him 21 telling Mr. Pirtle that he was not aware of it when, in fact, r

i 22 it shows that it was -- there is an indication that he was 23 aware of it, that that's a false statement?

24 Did he ever make -- mention that to you 2s A Well, no.

13

l 1

1 During the same convaraction when he l 1

2 said about the double-dipping, I told him, I said, "They 3 are not investigating the fact that you put it out on the 4 CEO, they are investigating the fact that material false l

5 statement." l s He asked, '%at do you mean?" And I 7 says, "Well, we look at the inspection report, NRC, it a states that the Director said he was not aware that he 9 could not do it or was not aware of the outside lines."

to I says , '%en, in fact, back in 11 September I advised you, " I said, "You subsequently asked 12 Joe Korte to research it for you," and then af ter that, 13 the conversation with Terry Madeda, he was out, he said 14 he could not do it. Two weeks dr I think it was two or 15 three weeks af ter, "You did it anyhow. So they are 16 out investigating material false statement. Not the fact i 17 that you put it on the system."

is Q What was his response to that?

19 A He just looked at me.

[ 20 Q Let me ask you this:

8 21 What is your knowledge of his background? l 22 Does he have any law enforcement experience?

23 A No, he does not.

24 Q Do you know what his degree is in?

25 A Administration, I think. I think he has a Masters Degree in, 14

l 1

i l Accounting, or vice versa. A Bachelor's in Science --

2 Accounting or --

3 Q Well, let me ask you this:

4 What qualifications did he have to 5 assume the position of Director of Security?

I 6 A Good question.

l 7 -

MR. MADEDA: You had mentioned that s Joe, yourself, and Joe Conen were working en the draft of l

9 that reportable event?

l to THE WITNESS: Yes. l 11 MR. MADEDA: How did it get from your i

12 draf t stage on to the CE07 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure about that.

14 Normallyrkbat happens is when we work is on a draft, Joe handles most of it and we review it.

16 MR. MADEDA: Joe Korte?

=

i 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Joe Korte handles I'

18 most of it.

19 I think I asked Joe to go ahead and

{ 2o have it typed up and we will have it sent to Wayne for l 21 approval.

22 I am not sure if Joe h(d it typed up 23 and gave it to Wayne and Wayne did not like it and then 24 dictated it or if he got the handwtitten copy that we were 2s working on. I am not sure of that.

15

. l 1

MR. MADEDA: How did you become aware 2

that it was put on the CE07 3

THE WITNESS: Several days later, 4

Kate Larry made a comment to me. She said, "Are you aware l

s that the Safeguards may have been put on the CE07" 6

I said, "No."

7 -

MR. MADEDA: Several days after it a wouldhave been put on?

9  !

THE WITNESS: Yes, j

10 BY MR. KAZMAR:

11 i Q The letter that waa sent off, did you sign off on that 12 letter?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Who other than Mr. Hastings signed off on that letter that i

15 you are aware of ?

16 A Bob Leonard, Plant Manager, i n'

s 17 MR MADEDA: When you became aware that i

, is it was put on the CEO,' did you take any action? i a l

19 t

THE WITNESS: No.

20 l BY MR. KAZMAR:

f 21 Q

i* Mr. Leonard probably -- well,1.et me back up.

22 If Mr.. Leonard signed off, would be 23 have signed off without a CEO or would he have gotten a 24 physical hard copy?

25 He would have received a physical hard copy because the 16

l s

1 signature one is the one that goes to the NRC. l 2

Q Would the fact that the CEO was used to edit, do you know l

3 if, in fac.t, it was used as a means of review by upper 4 management?

1 5 A I would assume that that is what he was talking about, the 1

6 review in the past. We have never had a review, 1

7 It goes from here, licensing, and 8

we discuss it; and then it goes to Wayne, our Director, then {

9 it goes to Bob Leonard, to Q Via the CEO or via hard copy?

11 A Normally it is by hard copy.

12 Okay.

Q 13 What I am driving at is is there anybody i 14 else in the same level of management as Mr. Hastings who 15 reviewed it on the CE0?

16 A Well, I am not sure who he sent it to. I could only assume; i 17 but I would assumo *that, part 'of the review would probably y

is have been to Mr. Jim Piani.

19 Q And Mr. Piani is the Director of Administration?

29 A No.

[

f 21 He was the general director who was i*

22 Wayne Hastings's supervisor.

73 Q Is there a way you could find out if in fact he. received 24 via the CE0?

25 A I could just ask him, you know. I don't know, because after 17

. l 1

it happened, it was then lined out of the CEO.

2 9 How long, in your recollection, after it was put in the 3

CEO did it stay there before it was lined out? Do you 4

.know?

5 A To my knowledge, from what I have heard, and I have only 6

been hearing from Wayne, it was only a couple of days.

7 Q So to the best of your recollection, you were talking to 8 '

Mr. Korte and Mr. Conen in your office and that is when 9

Mr. Hastings walked in and mentioned that he was using 10 the CE07 A Well, we were talking about other things first.

12 Q Yes.

13 A He asked what we were working on and I answered, "We are 14 working on the five-day letter." Hr, asked when: it was 15 due and I Aaid, "It's due tomorro% . It has to be postmarked 16

, by 4;00.p.m. tomorrow. "

i 17 g He said , "It will never make it

'. 18

[ through the review cycle." I said, "I will just call and

  • 19 see whether we can get an az. tension."

h 20 8

I He said, "No, we vill put it on the CEO. '

21 lI Q Then he took the whole letter and started --

22 A No. No he did not take the letter at all. He just said, 23 "We will put it on the CEO. " I said, "We can 't put it on 24 the CEO. It is Safeguards." That is when he turned around 2s and walked out.

,o l

, i i

We finished working on the draft copy, 2

and again, I don't recall, but I think normal practice --

3 my normal practice, I gave it to Joe to have typed up and 4

a'hard copy to be sent for Wayne's revisy because Licensing 5

was involved with doing the review, or the hard copy of it.

6 Okay.

Q 7

Sb then after Korte took it what do a you remember happening then?

9 A 1 don't know how it got -- if it got typed up or the to handwritten copy was sent. I really don' t know.

11 Okay.

Q 12 MR. KALDfAN: So you didn't need a 13 Licensing involvemeht because they were involved in the 14 draft process?

15 THE WITNESS: Right.

's

=

Licensing, when we get the hard copy 17 l and they take it and they will have Bob Leonard sign it, he i

18 is the Vice President; so we get Licensing involved with all 19 of that.

20 l MR. MADEDA: Are you aware of any a

j 21 conversation that Kate Larry may have had with Cindy Cody 22 at the printer. where the CEO paper comes off, concerning 23 this report?

24 THE WITNESS: I am only aware of it 2s because I heard of it when I was testifying in Federal Court 19 l

1 or the court.

2 MR. MADEDA: Which was -- not the 3

date but the information.

4 THE WITNESS: Oh, that Cindy was at s

the printer and was printing out and she was saying , "He 6 told me he couldn't do it. He told me he couldn't do it."

7 Kate was apparently getting coffee and 8 she said, "What are you talking about?" Cindy supposedly 9 said, "Safeguards on the CEO."

c 10 Kate apparently t'ok o a look at it 11 and determined it was Safeguards.

12 BY MR. KAZMAR:

13 Okay.

Q 14 The other thing that comes to my is mind, and correct me if I am wrong on anything, but it is 16 my understanding that Mr. Hastings realized that you only i 17 have one more day that he could get the review process dons 18 without using the CEO.

19 To your knowledge, who was the -- who 20 l was involved in that review process that he wanted to use f
21 that system?

22 A Again, I can only assume that it was probably Mr. Piani 23 because everything else in the past way we have done it, 24 Licensing gets involved. It is handwritten, typed, stamped, 25 sent to Wayne for his review, then it is given back.

20

il Licensing takes it and they go to l 2

Bob Leonard and have it signed. It goes to Frank Agusti ther ,.

3 So if there was anybody else that was supposed to be in 4

the review process, then I can only assupe it was probably 5 Jim Piani.

6 Q I am trying to find out how -- who actually saw it Come 7

up on the screen other than , you know, -- here is a

Mr. Hastings in this area herepunching f.t in and it is 9 being transmitted to other sites for review, to I mean it was a reason behind doing it.

11 Who in fact was actua.11y looking at it?

12 A That, I have no knowledge of.

13 Q Is there any way we would be able to find .that out?

14 A The only thing I can think of is to ask Cindy who she is sent it to.'

16 Q Oh, it depends on the sender, who she accesses it to?

i 17 A Yes.

1s Because when you punch it out and

19 you are going to send it out in a format or a message, it j 20 will have who has access-- it has four slots on it as to l 21 who it is going to originally and who they are cc'ing; then 22 you can add some more slots to it.

23 MR. KALKMAN: Where is Mr. Piani 24 located?

2s THE WITNESS: He is now downtown.

21

l l

e 1

MR. KALKMAN: At the time when this 2

incident occured?

3 THE WITNESS: At the time he was in 4

the plant next to Bvb Leonard, the Plant Manager's office. l 5 BY MR. KAZMAR:

6 Q Which is in the NOC Building?

7 A No, he was inside the protected area.'

s MR. KALKMAN: And they have a CEC there?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. think just about 1 10 everyone on site just about has CE0's.now. 1 j

1 ti MR. KALKMAN: Mr. Piani also was aware 12

- early on that CEO was not an acceptable mear.s of carrying

'. 3 Safeguards Information?

14 THE WITN2ES: to my knowledge, he was 15 there when he sent the letter to us, Stu Leach sent it,Lthe 16 letter to ==,and cc'ed Wayne about it.

i 17 After that, I have never really had 18 I

any conversations with Mr. Piani about it.

to MR. MADECA
Have you or Wayne, or has 1

j 20 V. 3 k-d any conversations with you concerning the statement 1 5 l 21 ts et Pirtle i* e39ert that indicates Warne said he had 22 n) *.

. J' eie system?

23 THE WITNESS: No. Just the one l 94 conversatts- . m e. .:

-- when he was talking about being 25 ',

3 double. dipped; and I mentioned the fact that if you look at 22

1 the statement in the inspections report where it says you 2

had no knowledge; and yet, "Here are all the factors before- l 3

hand."

4 MR. MADEDA: To the best of your 5

knowledge, do you feel Wayne reslized he was putting 6 Safeguards Information on the CE0?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

8 MR. KALKMAN: Mr. Thompson, what type 9 of training do the people in your department , Security, 10 have when it comes to handling the Safeguards material?

11 THE WITNESS: Well, we have a little 12 program that they have to read on what Safeguards is and 13 how it is supposed to be handled according to our procedures.

14 As part of that program, we put together 15 for violations again, and we have everybody sign a form 16 that indicates that they have read it. I can not recall i

17 3

what the number is right now; and they are aware of the 18 Safeguards, the Safeguarde program.

19 BY MR. KAZMAR

I j 20 Q '%s that in effect back in '85, or is that something new?

, 21 A It was in effect, but I don't really believe that we were 22 really' that hard on it that we, you know, -- Security's 23 responsibility, we tell thu supervisors "This is what they ,

24 have to know." It is up to the supervisors.

25 Now we have gone ahead and made them 23 <

, l 1 sign these forms that this person and this person has read 2 and acknowledges the Safeguards program. l 3 MR. MADEDA: Is there anything concern-4 ing this incident that we have not discussed or brought up 5 in the questioning that you feel is relevant to the 6 investigation?

7 -

THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.

8 l MR. KALRMAN: When this incident occured 9 and I know we discussed this earlier, when you found out that 10 Mr. Hastings used the CEO for Cafeguards Information, 11 apparently, you did not feel any obligation to make that 12 known to someone superior to Mr. Hastings; is that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I 14 want to say obligation.

15 MR. KALKMAN: You knew it was a code l 16 violation.

i 11 THE WITNESS: I did.

I

{: 18 MR. KALKMAN: And you did not feel

19 any obligation knowitj it was a code violation to contact l 20 someone other than -- above Mr. Hestings? ,

f 21 THE WITNESS: No.

i*

22 BY.MR. KADfAR:

23 Q Why not?

24 a I think it kind of goes into a little different territory, 25 but I guess you could say when you get kicked in the f ace-24

l

. '1 enough, you just stop. l I

2 MR. KALKMAN: You did not feel 3 .that you would get satisfaction from going and talking to l l

4 Mr. Piani or --

1 5 THE WITNESS: No.

l 6 MR. KALXMAN: Or someone else? l 1

7 -

THE WITNESS:Right.

s BY MR KAZMAR:

9 Q Did you feel that there would be repercussions?

Io A Well --

11 Q Or the possibility of repercussions?

l 12 A I don't know if you would want to say that, but I would say i 1

13 that it would be ignored.

l 14 Q Okay.

15 MR. MADEDA: You felt that it would 16 hurt your position in the company?

3 17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

18 BY MR. KAZMAR:

19 Q Did yF3 feel an obligation at that time to talk to i

j 20 somebody at NRC like Terry or Gary, the Inspectors?

l 21 A No.

I 22 Q Why not?

23 A _I'm sorry?

24 Q Why not?

25 A Probably because the same situation. Not necen arily 25

I repercussions from the NRC, but --

2 From management?

Q 3 A Yes.

4 MR. KALKMAN: Then when ymt became an 5

Edison amployee and started working at the Fermi site, did

, 6 you receive any orientation, about reportithr, violations of 7

  • 10CFR to the NRC?

6 TE WITNESS: No. Not really, because 9

when I came with the company, I was hired in as the Corporato 10 Security Training Coordinator. That is what I was hired it in for.

12 I was assigned my first day to start 13 working on nuclear projects; and we were part of Corporate 14 Security at the time. In83, they splie us off, and it was 15 through the whole process of going through the 10CFR and 16 security plans and everything.

i 17 Basically, I picked up the reportables.

1s So the orientation t; hat MR. KALKMAN:

i

19 new employees receive now, are they made aware of t.he t

} 20 reporting requirements?

, i 8

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

! m 72 i There is t portion on it.

73 BY MR. TAZMAR:

N Q Mr. Thompson, I would like you, if you will, to elaborate 25 .

i . little bit on this management, that you did not go to 26 I

1 1

1 i management because you would be ignored.

2 Was there an attitude, in general, 3 your perception of an attitude on management's part that 4 things like this were of no consequence?

s Would I be correct in saying that?

6 A Well --

7 Q What I am asking is to elaborate on this attitude because a it appears that that seems to be the reason why you did not 9 go forward.

to A Well, that probably is a fair assumption to say.

11 Q Well, how would you synopsize that attitude? How w'ould 12 you characterize-it?

13 A Try and deal with the situation rather than try and not --

14 rather than try and flat. out make a reportable item out is of it.

1e Q I don't quite understand.

i 17 Can you explain that a little bit?

I

{a 18 A Rather than make a reportable item out of something, try

19 and -- I am trying to think of the words that were used, s

! 20 Try and work the problem out.

f: 21 Q And you would say that that attitude was cF' Tee 6ristic 22 of the people above Mr. Hastings? Who would that be, 23 Mr. Piani?

24 A Yes.

2s Q Anybody else?

27

1 A No.

2 Basically, just Mr. Piani. ,

3 Q I know v'u have told me, but I am trying to remember:

4 Mr. Leach, how does he fit in there?

5 Mr. Piani is above Mr. Hastings; and Mr. Leach is --

S A When Mr. Leach, .when he was here as a director, he reported 7 to, at the time, the Vice Preeident.

8 As time went on, it went down the 9

level to where he reported to, I don't know -- then they to made a change; and then they said now, Security reports j 11 to the General Director, which was Jim Piani. i 12 Within three to four weeks af ter that 13 occured, that is when Mr. Leach left and Mr. Hastings 14 came in. I ts Q Okay.

16 So in September - November of 1985, i 17 I which I am talking about yourself, 'above:you is Mr. Hastings, l

18

{

and then above him would be Mr. Piani? I

19 A Yes.

2o f Q Where is Mr. Leonard? Where does he fit int f 21 A Bob Leonard at the time was Plant Manager and still is 22 Plant Manoger; but we did not report to Plant Manager. We 23 reported to Nuclear Administration.

24 Okay.

Q 25 A Andinow we report to the newly-created position, Superinten-28

1 dent of Services who reports to the Plant Manager.

2 Q Who did Mr. Piani, in September - November 1985 report to?

3 A Frank Agusti.

4 Q What is your background in law enforcement, Mr. Thompson?

5 A I have 10 years police officer in the City of Detroit; I 6 have a Bachelor's of Science Degree in criminal Justice and 7 Security Management; I spent two years as Director for s Security for the Southland Corporation.

9 Q Prior to coming to Detroit or --

to A Yes.

11 Q Okay.

12 A Then I spent probably about a year and a half as a Director 13 of Security for Tiger Stadium and the Pontiac Silverdome.

14 Then I came to Detroit Edison.

15 Q Okay.

16 MR. KALKMAN: Correct me if I am i 17 vrong, but did you indicate that according to your knowledge, I

18 that Wayne Hastings was aware of what he had told

{

19 Gary Pirtle and what Gary put in the report?

1 l 20 THE WITNESS: No.

21 I had no knowledge of the matter, not i*

22 until the report came out, b

23 MR. MADEDA: After the report came 24 out?

05 THE WITNESS: Yes.

l t

29 L _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

l C -

-u unifva 11V7t%wnhi44u

. - u unw p e

1

,, MR. MADEDA: Are there any other 2

instances where -- that you are aware of first-hand that 3

Wayne Hastings may have tried to deceive the NRC during 4

their security inspection?

5 THE WITNESS: During the security 6 inspection?

7 MR. MADEDA: As a result of, prior'to 8 or after the inspection or during.

e THE WITNESS: Well, I guess the to simple way to put it is -

11 MR. MADEDA: Are you aware of any 12 instances other than this one where Wayne Hastings would 13 have attempted to deceive or mislead an NRC, Inspector 14 either prior to er during or af ter the NRC inspection?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 MR. MADEDA: Could you elaborate?

i 17 r 9 THE WITNESS: The l <

incident.

I l j is MR. MADEDA: Other than that, s

19 THE WITNESS: No.

I j 20 MR. MADEDA: Okay.

l 21 MR.KAID(AN: Mr. Thompson, when we 22 were discussing this corporate managemant attitude and you 23 were -- in security, it is my understanding that you indicated 24 the instructiras you were getting was to take care of a 25 problem rather than make it reportable, a reportable item.

3 Does that mean that if there was '

2 something reportable, to not report'it and cover it up?

3 Cover it up in some aspect of that --

4 THE WITNESS: The words that were  :

s coming out on memo and in'mastings was that if we had a l 1

6 reportable, that we should either report it; but the other  ;

7 words that were coming out, the fact that, you know, maybe )

I e it was not a reporteble item.

g Maybe it's not. Maybe we should take to a hard look at it before jumping in with both feet. I it The philosophy that I go by is if l 12 I feel I have got it and I don't have it, I will call it is and work it out later. J I

14 The inuendo is that, you know, "Maybe <

l 15 you don't have it. We should work these things out first."

16 I don't want to say that they were telling me to cover it )

i 17 up or something like that; but, you know, if you don't havs i

te all of the facts and you are looking at a possible one l

19 outer, and you are going to call it now instead of waiting i t

20 for three or four days.

l 5

21 MR. KALKMAN: Is it fair to say that 22 the direction was to if you don't call it a reportable item l 23 and analyze it for a while, then it is not really a report-24 able item until you make some analysis, some further 25 dertermination that if there is no other way to deal with it ,

31

1 then it has to be a reportable itam?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 BY MR. KAZMAR:

4 Q In other words, reporting item would be a last resort; 5

would that be accurate? .

6 A That would be accurate. But again, you have to understand 7

that the verbage that comes out and the menos that come a

out always indicate-that if you feel it, call it, s Q But the inuendoes would be what, from verbal conversations?

10 A Yes.

11 I can only go on that based on, which 12 Terry knows, the )thauselves. '

j.- J 13 Q Did you ever interface in verbal conversations with 14 Mr.'Piani at allt 15 A During --

16 Q In any time in that timeframe?

i 17 A Tes.

I is Q Okay.

19 A 1

On that request that you want for the letterc I think l 20 Mr. Piersanti has a copy of it. -

A 21 Q Okay.

I r2 Mr. Thompson, have I or any other NRC 23

representative here threatened you in any manner or offered 24 you any rewards in return for this statement?

25 A No.

32

.~

1 Q Have you given this statement freely and voluntarily?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Is there anything further that ycu care to add for the record  ?

~

d '

A No.

5 MR. KAZMAR: Okay.

6 Thank you.

7' (Interview ~ concluded at 10:25 a.m.)

s S

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 i

3 17 i

g is a

19 i

20 21 22 23 24

" 33 l

l

,m' 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN) i

) ss 2 COUNTY OF WAYNE )

3 1, Elizabeth Diann Ferguson-Evans, 4 do hereby certify that the witness whose attached Interview was 5 taken before me, in the above-entitled matter, was by me first 6 duly cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth '

7 and nothing but the truth, in the cause aforesaid; that the 8 testimony contained in said Interview was by me reduced to l l

9 writing in the presence of s&id witness by means of stenography l 10 and afterwards transcribed upon a typewriter. The said Interview 11 is a true and correct transcript of the whole of the testimony j 12 given by the said witness aforesaid.

13 I do further certify that I am not 14 connected by blood or marriage with any of the parties or their 15 agents, and that I am not an employee of either of them, nor 16 interested directly cr indirectly in the matter of controversy, 3

i 17 either as counsel, attorney, agent or otherwise.  !

l

, 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto a

19 set my hand and affixed my notarial seal at Detroit, Michigan, i 20 County of Wayne, State of Michigan, thisk day o w A 198(

a*

21 \

N N

N.\ '

22 L&_ '

s  % en Ag r *&

23

\Q Elizabeth Diann Ferguson-Evans, CSR-1341 Notary Public, Wayne County, Michigan 24 My Commission expires: April 10, 1990 25

. _ . _ . . . . _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ , _ _ _ _ _ - . _ _ _ ,

Retrieved from "https://kanterella.com/w/index.php?title=ML20151S213&oldid=2964794"