PMNS20181280, 1/15/2019 - Transcript of Public Meeting to Discuss the Proposed Rulemaking to Align the Regulations in 10 CFR Parts 50 and 52, to Address Updates to the Licensing Processes, and Lessons Learned for Future New Reactor Applications
| ML19031A002 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 01/15/2019 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Material Safety and Safeguards |
| To: | |
| O'Driscoll, James | |
| References | |
| 10 CFR Part 50, 10 CFR Part 52, NRC-0052, NRC-2009-0196, PMNS20181280, RIN 3150-AI66 | |
| Download: ML19031A002 (101) | |
Text
CORRECTED Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Public Meeting to Discuss the Proposed Rulemaking to Align the Regulations in 10 CFR Parts 50 and 52, to Address Updates to the Licensing Processes, and Lessons Learned for Future New Reactor Applications Docket Number:
NRC-2009-0196; RIN 3150-AI66 Location:
Rockville, Maryland Date:
January 15, 2019 Work Order No.:
NRC-0052 Pages 1-105 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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PUBLIC MEETING TO DISCUSS THE PROPOSED RULEMAKING TO ALIGN THE REGULATIONS IN 10 CFR PARTS 50 AND 52, TO ADDRESS UPDATES TO THE LICENSING PROCESSES, AND LESSONS LEARNED FOR FUTURE NEW REACTOR APPLICATIONS
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- TUESDAY, JANUARY 15, 2019
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ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND
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The Public Meeting convened in the Commissioners' Hearing Room at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, One White Flint North, 11555 Rockville Pike, at 8:30 a.m., George Smith, Facilitator, presiding.
NRC Staff Present:
GEORGE SMITH, NMSS FRED BROWN, NRO JOSEPH COLACCINO, NRO JIM O'DRISCOLL, NMSS PATRICIA VOKOUN, NRO
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S Meeting Logistics George Smith......................................3 Opening Remarks Fred Brown.......................................10 Proposed Rulemaking to Update Regulations for Future New Reactor Licensing Applications Jim O'Driscoll...................................12 Patricia Vokoun..................................16 Joseph Colaccino.................................19 NEI Discussion Mike Tschiltz....................................30 Charles Pierce...................................33 Amy Aughtman.....................................34 Dan Stout........................................51 Peter Hastings...................................54 Open Discussion/Q&A Session.......................79 Closing Remarks/Adjourn..........................104
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
8:30 a.m.
2 MR. SMITH: Good morning, everyone. Good 3
morning, everyone on the phone. My name is George 4
Smith. I'll be your facilitator for today's meeting.
5 My role is to ensure that today's meeting 6
is both informative and productive. This is a Category 7
3 public meeting which means that it's structured to 8
provide opportunity for public interaction.
9 So we've provided an agenda including 10 questions where we're looking for the public input.
11 There will be an opportunity for those in the room and 12 those on the phone to ask questions and to make comments 13 after the NRC and stakeholder staff presentations have 14 concluded.
15 So today's meeting is scheduled for two 16 three-hour sessions. We'll have a one-hour lunch 17 break. We'll also have a 15-minute break every 90 18 minutes.
19 So before we get started I'll go over a 20 couple of housekeeping items. First, for those in the 21 room that I have a brief safety message. In the event 22 of an emergency you'll see that the back doors here 23 we have emergency exits that we can go out. Basically 24 what we'll do we'll go out the door. There may be some 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 security out front giving us direction as to where we 1
should go and what we should do. We'll follow the 2
directions of the security folks.
3 But you can stay with the NRC folks. We're 4
going to meet over by the Harris Teeter over on Citadel 5
Drive. If you decide not to stay with the group, please 6
let me know or Jim O'Driscoll know. We just want to 7
have an accurate account of all the -- of those who've 8
signed up to attend this meeting -- that signed in, 9
I'm sorry, to attend the meeting.
10 So with regard to getting around the 11 building as a visitor, you have unescorted access from 12 the lobby area that you came into up through this 13 hallway. So we have a cafeteria down the hallway.
14 In Two White Flint we have unescorted access. We have 15 an NRC general store down there, a Starbucks. You also 16 have a cafeteria across the hallway. But again, just 17 make sure you display your badge.
18 As a reminder there's no eating and 19 drinking in this room, so I just want to remind you 20 of that. And if you're going to go in any other area 21 in the building you have to be on the escort.
22 So to get to the restrooms you can just 23 go out the double doors here and make a left. You'll 24 see the women's room on the left-hand side about five 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 feet down the hall, and before the double doors, the 1
glass double doors you'll see the men's room on the 2
right-hand side.
3 If you've not have an opportunity to sign 4
in, we have a sign-in sheet at the beginning of the 5
desk as you come in the door. Please sign in, everyone.
6 7
Also we have some public feedback forms 8
out at the table that's available for you to fill out, 9
so please take the time to fill those out. It helps 10 us with our process.
11 So I'll do my best to make sure that 12 everyone has an opportunity to participate in the 13 discussions and have a chance to express their views 14 without concerns as to how these views will be received, 15 so we appreciate your assistance in accomplishing that 16 goal also.
17 Also this meeting is being recorded and 18 transcribed for our reference so we can review our 19 communications for effectiveness. To ensure we 20 accurately document your feedback we ask that only one 21 person speaks at a time with no interruptions.
22 For those of you in the room please utilize 23 the microphones. You can -- if you're at the table, 24 you have a microphone. If you're not at the table, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 you can come to one of the two microphones. If you 1
can't come to the microphones, just wave at me, let 2
me know and I'll bring a microphone to you.
3 For those on the phone the operator will 4
place you in the queue to speak and I'll alternate 5
between the room and the phones for the questions.
6 And I'll do that based on the amount of questions that 7
the operator is indicating that we have on the line 8
and how many folks have indicated that they want to 9
speak herein the room.
10 If you choose to speak, please speak slowly 11 and clearly, state your organization affiliation, and 12 if you can spell your name the first time so we can 13 attribute your comments and questions. To minimize 14 any distractions please place your phones in courtesy 15 mode at this time so if your phone -- you can turn it 16 off or mute it, any electronic devices if they ring, 17 buzz or beep or alarm. We also ask that you minimize 18 side conversations. We understand that you may have 19 an important phone call, and that's fine, but please 20 take the phone -- you can just take the call outside 21 of the room. We'd appreciate that.
22 This meeting is being hosted by webinar, 23 so you can view the slides and participate via the 24 Internet by using the webinar link on the meeting 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 announcement. If you are participating by this method, 1
we strongly encourage you to mute the sound on your 2
computer and listen to the meeting through the telephone 3
bridge line that's provided in the meeting 4
notice. If you are participating through the webinar 5
audio feed right now, please take a moment to call 6
1-888-848-6713. Again the number is -- for the audio 7
feed please call 1-888-848-6713. And you can use the 8
passcode 5107274. That's passcode 5108274.
9 Also to ensure we capture a complete 10 transcript we -- please make your comments by telephone, 11 not through the webinar. We have an operator on the 12 line to help us. Again her name is Robin.
13 For those of you dialing in to the meeting 14 you will be in listen-only mode unless you notify Robin 15 that you wish to speak. You can accomplish this by 16 pressing star-1 on your phone. I will remind you that 17
-- to press star-1 on your phone for those online 18 throughout the meeting.
19 Also for those on the phone, if you're at 20 a computer and do not wish to use the webinar and would 21 like to see the slides for today's meeting, you can 22 access them from the NRC home page, www.nrc.gov and 23 it will be under public meetings and involvement 24 heading. Click on the link to the public meeting 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 schedule, scroll down to today's date and meeting time, 1
find the information for this meeting and click on the 2
link for the meeting info. You'll bring up the meeting 3
notice and agenda. On the third page click on the link 4
for meeting detail. Scroll down and you will find a 5
link to the presentation slide and related document 6
section. Please note that a list of ADAMS accession 7
numbers to the document referenced in the NRC staff's 8
presentations can be found at the end of the staff's 9
slide presentation.
10 And we'll say this throughout the meeting 11 today, please be careful not to discuss any safeguards 12 information, security-related information, classified 13 or proprietary information during this meeting.
14 Although we intend to have an open dialog 15 please note that the NRC will not make any regulatory 16 commitments during the meeting.
17 Slide 2, please. So this is the agenda.
18 Joining me today is Fred Brown, Director of the NRC's 19 Office of New Reactors.
20 Fred?
21 Also from the NRC Office of New Reactors 22 we have Joseph Colaccino.
23 Did I get it right?
24 MR. COLACCINO: Close.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 (Laughter.)
1 MR. SMITH: Adrian Muniz, Patricia Vokoun.
2 And they're all from the Office of NRC's Office of 3
New Reactors. Also joining me is Jim O'Driscoll from 4
the NRC Office of Nuclear Material Safety and 5
Safeguards.
6 We have several other NRC staff here in the audience 7
as well.
8 After opening remarks we will have the NRC 9
staff presentation. The NRC technical staff will cover 10 the NRC staff's scope and activities to date and discuss 11 preliminary views for items to be considered in the 12 rulemaking. And then we will open up the floor for 13 stakeholder's presentations and discussion.
14 Slide 3, please. So the purpose of today's 15 meeting is to discuss the staff's plan for determining 16 the scope of a rulemaking that would better align Part 17 50 and 52 and will address lessons that have been learned 18 through new reactor licensing reviews. Our purpose 19 today is also to solicit and receive ideas from the 20 public on what they think should be considered in this 21 rulemaking. Please note that the NRC will consider 22 the input received today, but the staff will not prepare 23 written responses to that input.
24 Slide 4, please. And now I'd like to 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 introduce Fred Brown, Director of NRO for the opening 1
remarks.
2 MR. BROWN: Thank you, George.
3 Good morning, everyone, and I appreciate 4
the attendance even in the aftermath of Washington, 5
D.C.'s snow storm. I know at least one person in the 6
audience who's from Wisconsin who did not think this 7
was a big snow storm, but we were shut yesterday 8
nonetheless. And so my thanks to the staff that 9
prepared through yesterday and for the members of the 10 public that came into town for this meeting.
11 Ho Nieh will also be joining us, the 12 Director of the Office for NRR for at least portions 13 of the meeting. Both he and I see this as a really 14 important opportunity. Part 52 and Part 50 have some 15 slight differences and the staff does have the 16 Commission's approval to enter into this rulemaking 17 and address them -- those differences, and we'll talk 18 a little bit more about that. But we also have an 19 opportunity to figure out how has the world changed 20 since the 1994 time frame when Part 52 was put into 21 place and what should we do as a learning organization 22 to reflect those changes.
23 So I think an analogy, when you go about 24 any project; for instance, if you decided to design 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 your own home or work with an architect to design your 1
own home, you have a paradigm in your mind of what you 2
need and how things will work and how things will flow.
3 And you build the home and after a couple of years 4
you figure out, gee, that kitchen island should have 5
been two feet to the left and a little wider doorway 6
in and out of the garage would have been good. And 7
that is just the nature of how things evolve as you 8
use something.
9 And so Part 52, we've now had the 10 opportunity to use most of the components of the rule.
11 We've got some experience with it. The staff is 12 identifying things that we believed did not go as well 13 as they could have or should have or cases where the 14 world has changed and now we need to focus on a different 15 aspect of the makeup of the rule. And this is an 16 opportunity for members of the public to provide us 17 the same sort of lessons learned and input on how the 18 world has changed and ideas in adapting the rule to 19 reflect the world as it exists today rather than as 20 it existed over 20 years ago.
21 So we'll talk much more, but my main message 22 in addition to the thanks for the input is that we will 23 go through a process of evaluating the difficulty and 24 the challenge and the clarity of a reg basis for all 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of the proposed changes that we get input on and we'll 1
make a -- likely make a recommendation to the Commission 2
based on resources and return on investment. What are 3
the things that should be added into this rulemaking 4
and what might need to be pushed out just from a resource 5
perspective or the time -- how quickly there would be 6
a benefit from a change?
7 So we are in a data gathering mode. We'll 8
engage on the ideas we hear to get input on them, and 9
I look forward to a very productive day. So thank you.
10 MR. SMITH: Great. Thank you, Fred.
11 Next slide, please.
12 Okay. Thank you for the remarks.
13 We'll now roll into the NRC staff's 14 presentation. I'll turn it over to Jim ODriscoll.
15 O'Driscoll. Sorry.
16 (Laughter.)
17 MR. O'DRISCOLL: Thank you.
18 Good morning. My name is Jim O'Driscoll.
19 I'm a project manager in the Rulemaking Group in the 20 Nuclear Regulatory Commission. That's in NMSS, so 21 we're consolidated. Thank you for joining us today.
22 As we said in our opening, the purpose of 23 today's meeting is to discuss the staff's current plans 24 and activities for determining the scope of a rulemaking 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 approved by the Commission in the staff's Requirements 1
Memorandum SECY-15-0002. We also are here to solicit 2
and discuss ideas from the public regarding what they 3
feel the NRC should consider in the rulemaking.
4 Next slide. We hope this interaction will 5
help you better understand the staff's overall 6
objective for this activity and we hope this public 7
interaction will help the staff understand your 8
perspectives on the subject, including what you think 9
the staff should focus on when evaluating the scope 10 of the draft regulatory basis. We'll take this 11 information, perspectives and questions we hear today 12 into consideration when developing the rule scope and 13 the regulatory basis, but the NRC will not prepare 14 detailed written responses to the input we receive 15 today. We plan to hold additional public meetings if 16 there's interest.
17 This slide, slide 6, shows the rulemaking 18 process, which is another way of saying the development 19 of Government regulations. We're in the second box; 20 that's the green one there, Regulatory Basis, where 21 our present task is to define the scope and then develop 22 the draft regulatory basis. We anticipate completing 23 the activities to define the scope in late March of 24 this year. We plan to communicate the proposed scope 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 to the Commission, as Fred said, in some venue and then 1
develop the draft regulatory basis.
2 For a rulemaking of this scope development 3
of the draft regulatory basis takes about 12 months 4
after the scope is defined, so we anticipate publication 5
of the draft reg basis for public comment in the second 6
quarter of calendar year 2020, but this date may change 7
depending on the results of the staff's current effort 8
to define the scope of the activity. After we develop 9
and publish the draft regulatory basis there will be 10 a 75-day public comment period. We expect to hold a 11 public meeting during that public comment period.
12 The written responses we receive during 13 that comment period will go into the docket for the 14 rule. In the final regulatory basis we will include 15 a summary of the stakeholder interactions and the key 16 messages we received from the public during the 17 development of the regulatory basis. We should publish 18 the final regulatory basis about a year after publishing 19 the draft regulatory basis, so this would be around 20 the second quarter of calendar year 2021.
21 The next two major steps are the 22 publication of the proposed rule and the publication 23 of the final rule. We will continue to provide 24 opportunities for public comment in this process. Upon 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 publication of the draft proposed rule in the Federal 1
Register, you will have an opportunity to review the 2
proposed rule and provide written comments to the NRC.
3 We expect to hold public meetings during that public 4
comment period as well.
5 Next slide. So we're on slide 7. The NRC 6
requires a regulatory basis for most of its rulemakings 7
in order to ensure sound informed decision making 8
throughout the rulemaking process. The regulatory 9
basis documents the justification for why rulemaking 10 is the best way to resolve a regulatory issue. The 11 regulatory basis also describes the technical, legal 12 or policy information that would support the content 13 of the rule. The draft regulatory basis will include 14 a draft cost benefit analysis of the proposed changes.
15 The Commission's direction in SRM-15-0002 provided 16 the direction to the staff to proceed with rulemaking.
17 So now I'll pass the baton to Pat Vokoun 18 who will provide some details on our current activities 19 to update and further define the scope of the activity.
20 MS. VOKOUN: Thank you, Jim.
21 Beginning with slide 8, I will describe 22 the background for our activities. In SECY-15-0002 23 issued on January 8th, 2015, the staff made several 24 recommendations to the Commission regarding policies, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 rules, guidance updates to ensure consistency in new 1
reactor licensing applications reviews. In the SRM 2
to SECY-15-0002 the Commission approved the staff's 3
recommendations and as such, the staff is commencing 4
the rulemaking process.
5 In Enclosure 1 of the SECY paper, the staff 6
included recommendations on alignment of Parts 50 and 7
- 52. The staff in Enclosure 2 of the SECY paper also 8
made a recommendation to address staff-identified 9
lessons learned obtained through Part 52 licensing 10 reviews. We will provide additional details regarding 11 these recommendations in subsequent slides.
12 It should be noted that additional items 13 associated with these recommendations may be identified 14 as the staff goes through the rulemaking process. As 15 previously stated by Jim, we will consider the feedback 16 we obtain today as we develop the proposed scope for 17 this rulemaking.
18 In addition, the staff is considering 19 various transformational changes that were not included 20 in SECY-15-0002. The staff intends to address 21 editorial, administrative or easy-to-implement changes 22 as well.
23 See slide 9. Let's talk more about 24 improving alignment between new reactor licensing 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 processes. Specifically, in SECY-15-0002 the staff 1
requested that the Commission confirm that the 2
Commission's guidance given in the Policy Statement 3
on Severe Reactor Accidents Regarding Future Designs 4
and Existing pPlants and other Commission direction 5
provided in response to SECY-89-013, SECY-90-016 and 6
SECY-93-087, would apply to any new applicants that 7
choose to use the Part 50 licensing process for their 8
application.
9 The purpose of SECY-89-013, dated January 10 19th, 1989, was to inform the Commission of the staff's 11 intentions regarding the ongoing reviews of the 12 evolutionary advanced light water reactors, or ALWR 13 designs. It was the staff's intent to pursue the design 14 review in a manner that might go beyond the acceptance 15 criteria defined in the Standard Review Plan, or SRP, 16 up to that time. The staff believed that the approach 17 to be in keeping with the intent of the proposed 10 18 Part -- CFR Part 52 to enhance safety through the design 19 certification process.
20 The purpose of SECY-90-016, dated January 21 12th, 1990, was to present the staff's recommendations 22 concerning proposed departures from the 1990 23 regulations of the evolutionary ALWRs.
24 The purpose of the SECY-93-087, dated April 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2nd, 1993, was to present the Commission with the 1
recommended positions pertaining to evolutionary and 2
passive light water reactor design certification.
3 SRM-SECY-15-0002 was that confirmation that the policy 4
issues applied to Part 52, applications should also 5
be applied to Part 50 applications.
6 See slide 10. Let's talk more about 7
aligning Parts 50 and 52. Based on the Commission's 8
approval the staff will consider revision of the 9
regulations in 10 CFR Part 50 for the new power reactor 10 applications to more closely align with requirements 11 in 10 CFR Part 52 incorporating as follows:
12 To develop a plant-specific probabilistic 13 risk assessment, or PRA, to submit appropriate 14 information describing that analysis as part of the 15 construction permit and operating license submittals, 16 and maintain and upgrade the PRA throughout the duration 17 of the operating license; to address the Three Mile 18 Island requirements of 10 CFR 50.34(f) with the same 19 exceptions given for 10 CFR Part 52 applications; to 20 provide a description of design features for prevention 21 and mitigation of severe accidents; and provide a 22 description and analyses of fire protection design 23 features and describe fire protection plans.
24 The SECY discusses aligning Part 50 to Part 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52 for new reactor applications. However, the staff 1
is considering aligning Part 52 to Part 50 where 2
appropriate. The alignment may go both ways.
3 Joe Colaccino will now discuss lessons 4
learned.
5 MR. COLACCINO: Thank you, Pat.
6 Good morning, everybody. My name is Joe 7
Colaccino. Happy New Year to you.
8 In addition to the information that Pat 9
has just presented on aligning, the SECY also talked 10 about lessons learned reviews that would be conducted 11 to -- updating Part 52. This was always the intent 12 of the staff. It was written in a couple of places 13 where we would do this. Notably it's not noted in the 14 SECY. There was a bipartisan policy paper -- the 15 Commission where we -- in its Recommendation 7 where 16 we'd said we'd update the -- we'd update regulations 17 to incorporate lessons learned to contribute to 18 enhancing the licensing process.
19 So Enclosure 2, we provided some examples.
20 And just to let everybody know, Enclosure 2 is not 21 comprehensive, but we -- it is grouped into three areas 22 where we felt that would be illustrative of what we 23 were trying to do: corrections, clarifications and new 24 requirements.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Since the update to Part 52, the last 1
comprehensive update in 2007, we had collected a number 2
of comments from the staff of areas that we should 3
consider in the future. It was approximately 150 that 4
we had.
5 So I'm going to talk about a couple of those 6
things this morning, and those issues are focused 7
-- I've kind of focused them on issues that have 8
unnecessarily, as I like to say, challenged the staff, 9
applicants and licensees.
10 So the first one I wanted to talk about 11 is the design certification renewal, and I'm going to 12 talk about renewal in the next slide as well. No fault 13 of either the staff or the applicant this has been under 14 review for a certain period of time. I'd like to say 15 it's just because of events and the way it was -- the 16 way we started in the renewal. So it's been lengthy 17 and it still undergoes. And this is for the GE ABWR.
18 The scope is non-specifically defined in 19 the rule. It's pretty high level. And we've -- I don't 20 think that there's anybody that's been involved with 21 the rule that would say there's been some challenges 22 with the implementation of this. So we did provide 23 some draft guidance to the applicant to do -- how about 24
-- go about to implement the -- this requirement. There 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 is an application in house and it's currently making 1
its way through review. But this is an area that we 2
think we want to at least consider in future rulemaking.
3 I'd like to talk that -- I'm going to talk about that 4
more in the next slide because it leads us 5
-- consideration of the renewal leads us to some other 6
change -- potential changes that we would consider in 7
the regulations.
8 The next one I wanted to mention was errors 9
in a certified design while renewing a COL application.
10 I don't think many people in this room understand 11 what the issues that were had. There's been a number 12 of correspondence on this with the AP1000 reviews with 13
-- particularly with a couple of COLs that were under 14 review that were held up because we were resolving some 15 issues that had occurred after one of the COLs was 16 issued.
17 So we're going to -- I think it's prudent 18 to ask ourselves what could be done in -- if anything 19 in consideration of the way Part 52 is constructed, 20 if there's anything that could be done to clarify and 21 make this situation more understandable. And I 22 understand there will probably be additional discussion 23 by that -- by the -- I've looked at the slides ahead 24 of what the industry has said. I know that this was 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 on your issue -- list of issues. So that was no 1
surprise. You know, just -- I didn't see any surprises 2
in any of the -- that you provided to me. So there's 3
always been a lot of discussion about this.
4 The third one I wanted to mention, again 5
another topic that's been a discussion, certification 6
-- certifying information that's referenced in design 7
certification rulemaking; i.e., Tier 1.
8 Now there's nothing in the regulations that 9
says that you have to -- what's Tier 1, what's Tier 10 2, what's Tier 2 Stars? Matter of fact the only thing 11 that identifies a tier of information is in the design 12 certification appendices. The tiering is all policy 13 papers that were -- numerous policy papers that were 14 written in the '80s and the early '90s, yet there isn't 15 any specific thing in the regs that says that you have 16 to have -- your application has to come in tiers. And 17 I think most people in the room know that, but I think 18 it's just worthy of saying it because there is a lot 19 of policy construction associated with that.
20 And so I think now that we've gone through 21
-- that were, as Fred had said, in the later stages 22 of -- as implied, executing the Part 52 process; we 23 haven't done it completely yet, it's worthy to go back 24 and look at this especially since we see the experience 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that we're having right now as a facility is being 1
constructed and looking at what the challenges are with 2
number of exemptions that we're receiving.
3 Next slide, please. So I titled this 4
slide, "Transformational Changes." I think everybody 5
understands what the meaning of that is, but we have 6
to recognize that after the issuance of the SECY paper 7
in 2015 and the Commission going ahead with allowing 8
us to do rulemaking on the alignment and also looking 9
at updating Part 52 a lot has happened since then.
10 We have the construction progress on Vogtle. We have 11 completion of other design certification and ESP 12 reviews. We're about to finish -- we're moving forward 13 finishing another one. Obviously the changes in the 14 nuclear industry that are happening and changes at the 15 NRC, quite frankly: Project Aim and the afore-alluded 16 to transformation paper. So in light of that it was 17 prudent to look and see -- and take a look that was 18 beyond what the scope in the Enclosure 2 of SECY-15-0002 19 is to see what other things could be considered.
20 And so I'd ask you to put renewal on hold 21 for a second. And so when you look at -- now I want 22 to come back to it. So expiration date of the 23 certification. Each certification has an expiration 24 date of 15 years. The 15 years was a compromise between 25
24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 what the staff wanted at the time: 10 years, and what 1
the industry wanted at the time, which I believe was 2
20 years. At least from the records that we have we 3
have that. So that was to provide the backfit 4
protection as my research understands for that time 5
once you have certification.
6 Given what we know now and the efforts that 7
the Agency has done with backfitting and then also the 8
challenges with -- that we were experiencing with 9
renewal causes us to say what is the benefit of having 10 a certification expiration date? And so -- and of 11 course with that what are the impact on the Part 52 12 regulations? So there's a lot in there that's 13 associated with renewal and a lot of things would be 14 to unwind, but there may be some benefits in doing that 15 for -- quite frankly for not only someone that has the 16
-- that has provided the certification with the staff 17 that needs to conduct the review.
18 And as we've seen from the ABWR review -- I 19 won't say that the review has been futile. I mean, 20 I think it's good to get ahead of that. But we now 21 have in Part 52 an amendment process as well where the 22 certification can be amended. So that was not part 23 of the original Part 52 process. That was -- came about 24 in -- I think that was part of the 2007 rule change.
25
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 So I think it's worthy for us to at least look at that.
1 And as Fred alluded to, our SECY paper -- the SECY 2
paper said that if there was anything that was beyond 3
what was in the scope of the SECY paper, we would come 4
back to the Commission and talk to them about that.
5 I think clearly this would be one of those things.
6 If you look at the -- then the -- so that's 7
a cascading change. You'd look at the change process 8
within the certification as well. That would be one 9
thing that you'd have to look at. But the change 10 process is in there. You know, we always talk about 11 the 50.59-like process. The "like" really is 12 associated with standardization. So there are tests 13 in there to make sure that you've -- that the design 14 is standardized. And for those of you who have done 15 the research -- and there is an extensive -- the 16 Commission spoke extensively on standardization 17 because the Commission believed at that time that 18 standardization would bring safer plants.
19 And so is there an opportunity now to look 20 at this? I mean, obviously they're not going to be 21 any safer, but what are -- to what level of 22 standardization do we need to have for these facilities 23 as described in Part 52?
24 So the next one, something that's given 25
26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 a lot of us lots of discussions about the phrase "what 1
does an essentially complete design mean?" It is 2
clearly defined in the papers. The policy is the scope 3
of the design so that you -- it would encompass all 4
the safety features. It was just -- not just the NSSS 5
system. It was -- and really we're focusing here -- I'm 6
thinking of the certification piece. It would be the 7
entire facility minus the site-specific pieces and 8
those interfaces would be described in the 9
certification.
10 There is a lot of discussion about the level 11 of detail in that scope. And again, we can look -- and 12 the proposal back in the '90s of the staff, the late 13
'80s, early '90s, about having four different 14 proposals, where actually the staff was -- at one point 15 was saying you need to actually produce all the design 16 blueprints and -- for it to be standardized. That piece 17 was rejected. But there is provisions in the 18 regulations that you have to provide enough information 19 such that the staff would have that available for audit, 20 the information produced design and procurement 21 specifications so that the staff could have it available 22 for -- if they needed it. So that's in the regulations 23 right now.
24 So that ties in with Tier 1 as well: What 25
27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 level of information do we need for Tier 1? What 1
information do we need to standardize the design? What 2
information is Tier 2? And I'll use -- even though 3
I've just -- I said before Tier 1 and Tier 2 is not 4
in the regulations in Part 52, what information needs 5
to be within that that is standardized? And then that 6
also fits in with the change process. So it all kind 7
of fits together.
8 Okay. The last one. And this does fit 9
in, and give me a second so I can explain how it fits 10 in. So there's a requirement in Part 52 that you have 11 to provide a -- you have to -- what's the exact 12 alignment? You have to address the Standard Review 13 Plan six months before your application comes in. And 14 I know that when I was leading a branch of one of the 15 design certifications that came in, I believe they 16 produced an 800-page report describing how they 17 deviated from the Standard Review Plan.
18 So, and I understand that the staff used 19 this report and -- but at the same time I also understand 20 that the review -- the application was structured such 21 that it had to answer the SRP completely. And the staff 22 did its review, so it also did the SRP completely.
23 And just asking is that the right approach? I mean, 24 the application piece is -- if you looked at the 25
28 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 requirements of 52.47, it gives you exactly what you 1
need to apply for, for the most part. For the most 2
part. And one of those pieces is this provision 3
addressing this SRP six months ahead of time. Is this 4
the right way to go? So do we burden ourselves with 5
much larger applications that don't necessarily enhance 6
safety by going by this route?
7 Okay. So those are my examples. I have 8
others within the 150 and there's been lots of 9
discussion as we're going through and scoping out this 10 rulemaking. I'm interested -- like I said, I did read 11 what you all had ahead of time, so I'm interested to 12 hear what you all have to say. And of -- as Jim said, 13 our regulatory basis will consider looking at the 14 evaluation associated with these items and we have made 15 a commitment again to provide the Commission with items 16 that are outside the scope of this paper, as Fred had 17 mentioned before.
18 Okay. So with that I think I'm passing 19 it back to Jim, right? You finishing up? Thank you.
20 MR. O'DRISCOLL: So we're a little ahead 21 of schedule. We were going to -- at this point we were 22 going to take a break and then roll right into the 23 stakeholder presentations, but I think it's early.
24 We can go right ahead into the stakeholder presentation 25
29 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 if that's okay by everyone.
1 So in our meeting notice we -- interested 2
members of the public were asked to let me know if they 3
intended to make a presentation. The Nuclear Energy 4
Institute informed me they would hold a discussion of 5
a list of items that pertain to the subject of the 6
meeting. I will ask the folks who will be discussing 7
this list to state their names and go ahead and start.
8 9
MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay. Thanks, Jim. My 10 name is Mike Tschiltz from the Nuclear Energy Institute 11 and we basically are going to go through a list of items 12 that we've provided the staff that I think is up on 13 the webinar right now. We've assigned leads for 14 discussing each of the issues and we'd like to conduct 15 this as more of a panel discussion from the industry 16 perspective.
17 We appreciate the opportunity to provide 18 this input early on in the rulemaking process as a first 19 look or a sampling of the issues that the industry feels 20 are important to address with Part 52. I think we 21 anticipate providing additional input throughout the 22 process as the staff works through the rulemaking.
23 I think there is a feeling that we need 24 to make the most of this opportunity. If you look at 25
30 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the timing of everything it's probably a once-in-a-1 decade opportunity to fix what's wrong with Part 52 2
or what people have concerns with Part 52 and it's a 3
unique opportunity from the standpoint of it provides 4
a chance for us to address some of the concerns that 5
stakeholders have fundamentally with Part 52 as being 6
maybe a non-workable process for first-of-a-kind design 7
certifications. So it's the opportunity for us to 8
maybe address some of those concerns and make it more 9
attractive for advanced reactor developers to utilize.
10 So with that being said I'll transition 11 to the table. I'm not going to read these items, but 12 the first item is basically the ability to make changes 13 during construction to the licensing basis without 14 delaying construction. I think the industry feels as 15 if this issue is set apart from all of the rest of the 16 issues because it is singly the most important issue 17 that we feel needs to be addressed.
18 The distinction I'll make also with this 19 issue is we don't feel that rulemaking is necessary 20 to fix this. We think it's a process implementation 21 issue. That being said I think the rule could benefit 22 from language in the Statement of Consideration that 23 would specifically address this to prevent an 24 interpretation like is currently being implemented from 25
31 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 taking place in the future.
1 So we -- the NEI issued a paper in October 2
of 2018 that basically looked at licensing impacts 3
during construction and experience using Part 52 to 4
make changes during construction. And we enlisted the 5
help of Southern who'd gone through this and had 6
firsthand experience. And basically what we 7
determined through the review was that the change 8
process for making changes to Tier 1 information, and 9
to Tier 2 Star for that matter, is too burdensome without 10 corresponding safety benefit. So we're looking for 11 that to be addressed through changes in NRC processes 12 as well as being addressed in the Statement of 13 Considerations for the rule.
14 I think if you look at the experiences with 15 the plants that were being constructed I think that 16
-- I don't think people can point out to the Part 52 17 change process as being a principal contributor to 18 delays during construction, however, the use of the 19 Part 52 process disrupted work, increased licensing 20 and engineering costs during constructions without a 21 corresponding safety benefit. And the NRC's 22 interpretation that construction has to be 100 percent 23 compliant with the licensing basis at all times creates 24 unnecessary ongoing risk throughout the entire 25
32 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 construction period without a corresponding safety 1
benefit.
2 So part of this also gets to the issue of 3
the level of detail that's captured in the licensing 4
basis in Tier 1, 2 Star. I think we have a number of 5
licensing -- or lessons learned with that. NRC I think 6
has made progress in its implementation of Tier 2 Star 7
and for future design certifications. It's 8
eliminating basically the use of Tier 2 Star unless 9
requested by the applicant. So we think that's 10 progress. However, I think there's more work that's 11 needed in this area, specifically with dealing with 12 first principles and identifying Tier 1 information 13 that goes into the design certification.
14 We've worked on industry guidance 15 documents. NEI 15-02 was out there initially and now 16 we've got a draft of NEI18-01, which talks about 17 industry guidelines for development of Tier 1 and ITAAC 18 under 10 CFR Part 52. So we feel that there's 19 significant work that needs to be done to cut down the 20 level of detail in Tier 1 and thus eliminate these need 21 for changes that require NRC review for things that 22 are very minor and don't present a safety issue.
23 So I think that's what I wanted to cover 24 here. And I'll open it up to other people on the panel 25
33 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 if they want to add anymore from their experiences with 1
changes during construction.
2 MR. PIERCE: Well, I'll just mention -- my 3
name is Charles Pierce. I work for Southern Nuclear.
4 And I'll just mention that the PAR process that was 5
developed either on went a long way to addressing the 6
immediate problem for changes during construction.
7 And without that I don't think -- I think there would 8
have been a -- Southern Nuclear would have had a very 9
difficult time with the construction program at Vogtle.
10 Having said that, just early on with the 11
-- in 2012 with the first issue that we had with rebar 12 we had to -- I mean, when it was identified, we basically 13 had to stop work and work on other things and work on 14 other issues and divert people, personnel and so forth.
15 And even though NRC was very responsive in getting 16 a PAR out to us very quickly, we got them in very quickly, 17 the PAR came out very quickly afterwards, there was 18 still construction impacts that were out there that's 19
-- and so we -- we've regularly had those types of 20 impacts where we don't necessarily -- it doesn't 21 necessarily impact a he construction milestone, but 22 it causes resource challenges within our organization 23 as we have to deal with an issue that comes up like 24 this. And we've had -- we have refocused the 25
34 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Westinghouse engineering organization to work on the--
1 a more complete design than initially we might otherwise 2
and so forth as we go through this process.
3 MS. AUGHTMAN: Amy Aughtman from Southern 4
Nuclear. I'll just echo what Mike and Chuck have 5
already said. I do think just as we also start 6
factoring in transformational changes opportunities 7
into this I do hope the staff will kind of take a step 8
back and just ask the question how much of what was 9
initially laid out and thought would be the process 10 by which a COL licensee would perform construction 11
-- how much of that is still necessary today? I mean, 12 now that we have lived some of these lessons what is 13
-- is there another point in time at which it makes 14 sense for the design, the license, the licensing basis 15 documentation, procurement information and all of that 16 to come into alignment?
17 MR. TSCHILTZ: So if there's no further 18 discussion on item 1, we'll shift to item No. 2 on the 19 list.
20 MR. PIERCE: Ah, that's mine.
21 MR. TSCHILTZ: Yes.
22 MR. PIERCE: There in the early days with 23 our Early Site Permit Program Southern Nuclear received 24 an early site permit in August 2009 and the limited 25
35 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 work authorization also in August 2009. As work began 1
and construction began under the limited work 2
authorization there were some changes that were 3
identified the need to be made to the SSAR, the 4
Supplemental Safety Analysis Report, in order to move 5
forward with construction.
6 10 CFR 52.39(e) specifically requires a 7
license amendment be required for any change to the 8
SSAR. It didn't -- without exception. So we couldn't 9
use the 50.59 process or a similar process to conduct 10 some evaluations and make changes to the FSAR at that 11 point in -- or SSAR at that point in time. That allowed 12
-- that created some complexity for us and required 13 us to make some license amendments that required very 14 quick turnaround in order for us to continue 15 construction at that point.
16 So my belief is that for individuals who 17 have an early site permit, particularly with a limited 18 work authorization, that some form of a change process 19 should be provided for to change the SSAR without going 20 back to the NRC necessarily for approval in all cases, 21 much like a 50.59 process.
22 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay. Any questions on No.
23 2? If not, we'll move onto No. 3. Zach?
24 MS. AUGHTMAN: I can start this one if you 25
36 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 want, Zach.
1 MR. HARPER: Okay.
2 MS. AUGHTMAN: So Amy Aughtman again from 3
Southern. And so this is addressing the topic of Tier 4
1, and I was encouraged to hear Joe's comments earlier 5
about -- just acknowledging that there is no requirement 6
for a tiered application approach. And so while our 7
-- we make a suggestion here that there should be a 8
Tier 1 minor change process added; I'll just say that, 9
that was to -- I'm going to say that was kind of a 10 Band-Aid solution here. If there's a better solution 11 that limits what needs to be part of Tier 1 that would 12 allow for greater flexibility in changes, then we 13 certainly do encourage that.
14 MR. COLACCINO: Amy, can I ask a clarifying 15 question? You -- this is Joe Colaccino. When you say 16 "minor," you mean something that's not an exemption?
17 MS. AUGHTMAN: So I'll continue on --
18 MR. COLACCINO: I'm sorry.
19 MS. AUGHTMAN: -- with what I mean by that.
20 21 So what the thought was by requesting that 22 is that many of the exemptions we have had to submit 23 that were changes to Tier 1 certified material were 24 for things like typos, clerical errors. So by typos 25
37 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I'm talking about: so this is a level-of-detail issue 1
I think, TAC numbers are in currently contained in some 2
of the Tier 1 information. Rad monitor numbers are 3
in the Tier 1 information. And then clerical and 4
administrative Like if we got a figure number incorrect; 5
we said 2.3-1 and we really meant 2.3.2-1, things of 6
that nature. Misspelled words. Elevator. We also 7
had a "lighting" change versus a "lightning" change 8
that we needed to make that we needed to make.
9 So the thought is for very minor changes 10 like that if there is -- if that isn't captured in Tier 11 1, would it make sense to provide for some type of change 12 process that doesn't require an exemption or other prior 13 NRC review and approval to fix minor changes like those?
14 Now if Zach has anything else to add.
15 MR. HARPER: Yes, I thought that was good.
16 I would just add onto that is that Tier 1 is lengthy 17 in many cases and the -- as a practical matter there 18 are going to be edits, there are going to be editorial 19 changes that need to be made and the -- what it causes 20 is resources are being pulled to work on an LAR or an 21 exemption for edits where those resources could be 22 better applied to more safety-significant issues than 23 changing a "lighting" rod to a "lightning" rod.
24 MR. SMITH: Excuse me. I'd like to remind 25
38 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 everyone to please use your full name and organization.
1 Zach, your name is?
2 MR. HARPER: Yes, Zachary Harper, 3
Westinghouse, Plant Engineering and Licensing.
4 MR. SMITH: Oh, great. Thanks. And 5
that's for the transcribing for those on the phone so 6
we can understand who's speaking.
7 MR. TSCHILTZ: So that brings us to No.
8 4 on the list for those on the webinar.
9 MR. HARPER: All right. Again, this is 10 Zachary Harper, Westinghouse, Plant Engineering and 11 Licensing.
12 So I was going to address items 4, 5 and 13 6, which are all related to renewal.
14 As written, Part 52 in draft NRC guidance 15 make it prohibitively expensive to renew a design 16 certification. I'd like to propose three changes to 17 the rule that would make the renewal application process 18 more predictable and efficient. I believe that these 19 proposals have no impact on plant safety, can be 20 implemented quickly and would have a positive benefit 21 to the nuclear industry.
22 The first item that I'd like to talk about 23 is aligning -- so it will go in slightly different order 24 than what's on the table. So the first item that I'd 25
39 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 like to discuss is aligning a design certification with 1
a constructed operating facility's UFSAR. So Part 52 2
does not distinguish a design certification renewal 3
for designs that have been licensed and built in 4
verbatim compliance with a high volume of lessons 5
learned versus a design certification that has never 6
been built in the United States with a lower volume 7
of lessons learned.
8 I believe that the additional hundreds of 9
thousands of hours of scrutiny applied to those designs 10 that have been constructed in the way of license 11 amendment requests, ITAAC closures, audits, 12 inspections and licensing evaluations should be 13 appropriately valued during the design certification 14 renewal process. Currently the renewal does not 15 provide for an efficient process to align design 16 certification to a recently constructed operating 17 facility's UFSAR.
18 What I would propose is to revise 10 CFR 19 52 to allow a design certification renewal application 20 be submitted following a facility's construction and 21 initial operation. Essentially what -- the proposal 22 would be for changes within the design application that 23 align with an operating facility's UFSAR should be 24 considered resolved and need no NRC review and approval.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 1
For those changes that would be included 2
in the design application that go beyond what was 3
included in the operating facility UFSAR; essentially 4
optimization-type changes, they should be evaluated 5
by the DC applicant in accordance with Section 6
VIII(b)(5) of the design certification rule. There 7
changes that need NRC approval under (b)(5) would be 8
considered an amendment under 52.57(c) and changes that 9
do not need NRC approval would be considered resolved.
10 11 In terms of justification I think this is 12 safe, it can be easily implemented and would have a 13 positive benefit. So in terms of safety changes from 14 the original DCD that have been implemented, the 15 operating facility's UFSAR have already been determined 16 to be safe, meet regulations and have no adverse impact 17 on the facility. Therefore, implementing those same 18 changes into a renewal application is safe and meets 19 regulatory requirements.
20 Implementation, I think it would be easy 21 because Reg Guide 1.206 Rev. 1 already provides 22 precedent and includes the justification for this 23 proposal. The recent Reg Guide updated in October of 24 2018 allows the COL applicants to align their COLA with 25
41 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 an operating facility's UFSAR with no NRC review.
1 So essentially the COLA application process already 2
has this provision. What we're proposing is that -- to 3
align the renewal rule with the COLA rule.
4 In terms of positive benefit I believe this 5
would ensure that lessons learned that are identified 6
during construction are included within the design 7
certification. It would also ensure that the design 8
certification matches the underlying engineering 9
technical documentation, it would greatly simplify the 10 COL application enhancing standardization, and also 11 changes that have already been evaluated to meet NRC 12 rules would not be unnecessarily reviewed.
13 So I'll pause there before I go onto my 14 second item.
15 (Pause.)
16 MR. HARPER: Okay. So the key point there 17 is that Reg Guide 1.206 already has precedent for this.
18 I believe for the COLA applicants we're looking to 19 take those -- what's provided for a COLA and make it 20 applicable to a renewal.
21 Okay. So for the second item that I was 22 going to address was related to the 15-year design 23 certification duration which you had previously brought 24 up. So per 10 CFR 52.55 a design certification is valid 25
42 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 for 15 years. This 15-year duration does not serve 1
the underlying purpose of the rule to, quote, "permit 2
more operating experience with a given design to 3
accumulate before the certification comes up for 4
renewal," end quote.
5 This duration is too short and does not 6
permit the desired outcome. In practice the 15-year 7
duration is causing design certification holders to 8
make a decision: either a renewal application and face 9
extensive NRC re-review as shown in the ABWR, or to 10 allow their safe design that has already been shown 11 to meet regulations and determined to be safe to lose 12 its certification. It should be the discretion of the 13 DC applicant when lessons learned have accumulated to 14 the point where it would warrant a DC renewal, not an 15 arbitrary date with no safety basis. So the proposed 16 resolution would be to revise 10 CFR 52 to remove the 17 15-year design certification duration.
18 In terms of justification I think this is 19 safe because the design certification rule -- they're 20 rules, they're not licenses. Rules should not expire.
21 They have been reviewed and approved by the NRC to 22 have met all regulatory requirements. Regulations 23 exist that allow the NRC to impose new requirements 24 on a design certification should a new 25
43 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 safety-significant issue come up. And I think the NRC 1
has shown its ability to do that.
2 And then in terms of positive benefit safe 3
designs that have been demonstrated to meet regulations 4
would maintain their design certification instead of 5
expiring at a predetermined arbitrary date. It would 6
also encourage new safe technologies to be introduced 7
since the DC applicant would have additional time to 8
recover up-front costs. It's very expensive and 9
time-consuming to get an original design certification.
10 To know that it's only going to expire in 15 years 11 gives a very limited time to recover the investment.
12 So I'll pause there before I go onto my 13 third item.
14 (Pause.)
15 MR. HARPER: Okay? All right. The last 16 item that I'd like to address is bringing the DCD up 17 to date. 10 CFR 52.57 currently requires an applicant 18 for renewal to contain all information necessary to 19 bring up to date the previous application. 52.59 20 provides the type of information that would be necessary 21 to bring the previous application up to date.
22 Specifically it states, "The Commission shall grant 23 a renewal if it complies with the Atomic Energy Act 24 and the Commission's regulations applicable and in 25
44 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 effect at the time that the certification was issued."
1 Unfortunately -- so the NRC has issued 2
draft guidance that attempted to clarify 10 CFR 52.57 3
by saying that renewal applications must include all 4
-- the correction -- include correction of errors, typos 5
and effects that reflect design changes -- and reflect 6
any design changes. So there appears to be some 7
disconnect between what was actually written in 10 CFR 8
52.59 and -- i.e. -- what was written in 52.59; i.e.,
9 the changes that need to comply with regulations and 10 the staff's interpretation; i.e., the correction of 11 errors, typos, defects and design changes.
12 So what I would propose is to clarify 10 13 CFR 52.57 regarding what it means to bring up to date 14 the information in the certification. In terms of 15 safety changes that require to meet NRC regulations 16
-- changes required to meet NRC regulations would 17 continue to be on the DC application. The -- it's 18 fairly simple because you're just pulling what's in 19
-- already in 52.59 into 52.57 and I think it would 20 have a positive benefit because it would eliminate 21 confusion on what content is actually required in a 22 renewal application.
23 So I guess just in closing I would say that 24 a rule written 30 years ago could not have anticipated 25
45 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the challenges that we have on renewal and should the 1
NRC be amenable to including these type of changes, 2
we can provide a more full explanation if you'd like.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay. Moving on to item 5
No. 7.
6 MR. PIERCE: Item 7 deals with the 50.59 7
versus the departure process.
8 MR. SMITH: Full name? Sorry. Sorry 9
again. I'm sorry, but full name and organization.
10 Thanks.
11 MR. PIERCE: Okay. My name is Chuck 12 Pierce. I work for Southern Nuclear.
13 MR. SMITH: Thanks.
14 MR. PIERCE: So the -- I think the 15 challenge here is that when the departure processes 16 were put in place I think that it was meant to be 17 essentially the same as the 50.59 in terms of with the 18 part of that process that deals with the questions of 19 50.59. However, the 50.59 process does contain some 20 differing language such as dealing with tests and 21 experiments and some other language. That drove to 22 a need to have subsequent guidance on how to do 23 departures, which has been done. And so right now we 24 do both departures and 50.59s on various aspects of 25
46 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 our FSAR.
1 Particularly going forward as you go into 2
operations what you're going to find out is that we'll 3
have engineering doing analyses, we're going to have 4
licensing doing work, we're going to have all the 5
-- right now today the entire organization, various 6
parts of the organization for the fleet does 50.59s 7
and this is going to be a human factors issue as when 8
do you do a 50.59 and when do you do a departure? It's 9
going to be pretty challenging as you get into the 10 operational phase and making those decisions and doing 11 them properly. Of course it can be done, but from a 12 process issue it would be far simpler in my mind to 13 make it clear that the 50.59 -- that the departure 14 process is actually a 50.59 process and you can apply 15 50.59 in lieu of the departure process. There's still 16 of course the aspect of severe accident sets that has 17 to be added at the end as well, but I think that's pretty 18
-- that's very doable.
19 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay. Moving onto No. 8.
20 Mike Tschiltz from NEI.
21 So this gets to an issue that was raised 22 during the NRC's presentation about delays in issuance 23 of COLs due to errors in the design certification that 24 are noted following certification of the design. And 25
47 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 so there's a fairly long history on this with -- over 1
the last several years with NEI interacting with the 2
NRC on this and trying to come up with what we would 3
consider to be viable options for addressing this issue 4
in the future.
5 There's no doubt in my mind this will be 6
faced by a future applicant, so the next person going 7
through the design certification process, the first 8
plant building it is going to undoubtedly find some 9
issues that could impact the certification itself, and 10 any follow-on COL would be impacted in a similar manner 11 than -- than they were in the past if we don't address 12 this. So that's why I think NEI keeps on coming back 13 to this because this is I think the opportunity we need 14 to fix this.
15 I think we had proposed in correspondence 16 to the NRC three different options, one of which -- I 17 think the industry felt was clearly the preferred option 18 was addressing this issue with errors in designs by 19 NRC issuance of a license condition. And I know there 20 was some concerns about legal precedent and the 21 Commission's views on the use of a license condition 22 and things that would limit that.
23 I think what we're looking at is something 24 explicitly stated in the rule that says if you have 25
48 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 this type of issue, here's what you should do so it's 1
not left up to interpretation. And I think we clearly 2
feel that a license condition is probably the best way 3
to deal with this out of the options that we developed 4
when we were engaging with the staff.
5 So I think in the example I have listed 6
here it lays out the process of requiring a license 7
amendment to correct the error prior to the 52.103(g) 8 finding and then specifying a design methodology for 9
correcting the error and acceptance criteria for the 10 design. So I think we think this is reasonable and 11 addresses the issue and that's what we're proposing 12 here for the staff to consider in the rule.
13 So I would say we would go onto item No.
14
- 9.
15 MS. AUGHTMAN: All right. Amy Aughtman 16 from Southern Nuclear. I'll cover items 9 and 10.
17 This again kind of comes back to -- item 18 9 comes back to Tier 1 again. One other item to consider 19 when examining Tier 1 is how much of it is necessary 20 to replicate in the COL itself? There was a desire 21 to have all the plant-specific ITAAC -- by the staff 22 to have all the plant-specific ITAAC reflected in the 23 COLs as an appendix.
24 And then there was a belief that for context 25
49 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 we needed -- that the Tier 1 information that supported 1
the ITAAC needed to be duplicated in the COL itself.
2 So that requires us to provide basically dual markups 3
for everything and it's not clear is there really a 4
benefit there for replication? I know it puts on us 5
a human performance error trap. And it's not that hard, 6
but again it's just extra work that we're not clear 7
if there's another -- if there is benefit there or not.
8 So that's what item 9 is about.
9 And then item 10 is just a potential 10 clarification to consider regarding the status of the 11 tech spec bases. Sorry, that's technical 12 specification bases. Technical specifications are 13 clearly articulated as not being considered part of 14 Tier 1 or Tier 2, however there's -- it's -- the rule 15 is silent on how the bases should be treated.
16 And right now our bases control program 17 is considered to not be in effect until 103(g) when 18 the tech specs become effective, however, we are having 19 to process changes to the bases as we're proceeding 20 changes now to the technical specifications themselves.
21 So perhaps a clarification on how the bases should 22 be managed prior to 103(g) could be beneficial.
23 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay. Moving on to No. 11.
24 MR. STOUT: Okay. This is Dan Stout. I'm 25
50 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the Director of Nuclear Technology and Innovation at 1
Tennessee Valley Authority managing our small modular 2
reactor early site permit application for the Clinch 3
River site. I'll be addressing No. 11 and No. 15 and 4
Peter will get cleanup on these.
5 What we're doing is we're asking the NRC 6
to consider a more staged approach to application 7
acceptance and review of components of an application.
8 And I'm talking about design certification 9
applications, CPs, construction permits, COLAs, ESPAs.
10 And it's going to require a shift from the perspective 11 of the NRC staff away from the position that was taken 12 two to three years ago where you were looking for a 13 complete application in its entirety before you would 14 conduct the review. You move there from an application 15 that was ready to begin the review.
16 And what we're asking is to think about 17 accepting something that is a complete component that 18 is of sufficient detail to conduct and issue a Safety 19 Evaluation Report with open items because we do 20 recognize that the staff will need to see a component 21 of an application in the context of the complete 22 application. And so it's reasonable to have an open 23 item that says you need to conduct that final review 24 once you've seen the complete application.
25
51 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 We think that this kind of an approach would 1
allow the applicant to get some needed finality and 2
predictability while also giving the NRC that -- the 3
ability to state its limitations on the finality that 4
they would be able to provide by seeing a component 5
of an application.
6 In terms of the clock it's reasonable that 7
the clock wouldn't start until you have a complete 8
application, but this would allow the potential for 9
more efficient use of resources in a case where the 10 staff had availability and the applicant had the ability 11 to get a part of the application in front of the NRC 12 and you could knock that out earlier and it reduces 13 the workload that's on critical path when that final 14 element of the application comes in.
15 MR. BROWN: This is Fred Brown with the 16 NRC. If I could just ask a quick clarifying question, 17 Dan. You used the word "providing needed finality,"
18 and there's different levels of finality within Part 19 52 that SDA has finality on the staff. DC has finality 20 relative to the Advisory Committee on Reactor 21 Safeguards and the Commission. Is this proposal -- how 22 does this proposal consider the degree of finality that 23 you would be thinking about with this change?
24 MR. STOUT: I think that's a great 25
52 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 question. The amount of finality that can be given 1
is what we'd be asking for. In other words, the SDA's 2
process does not achieve finality from the Commission 3
or the ASLB, and that's fine.
4 MR. BROWN: Okay.
5 MR. STOUT: You know that going into it 6
that the finality has limitations. So I think the more 7
important element is getting the finality from the staff 8
and to some degree getting the finality from ACRS 9
review. That takes you a long way down the path of 10 having alignment from a technical perspective.
11 MR. BROWN: So great. So the main 12 distinction here between -- and I used an acronym, I'm 13 sorry. Standard design approval. The main 14 distinction would be to have the staff include the 15 Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards which is not 16 currently laid out in the sub-part E of Part 52, which 17 is the standard design approval. We can do staged 18 reviews, but to extend that to engagement with ACRS 19 for portions of various applications it's hard.
20 MR. STOUT: I guess it would be my 21 suggestion that we try to accommodate that, that that 22 helps improve the degree of finality and I think it's 23 consistent with how the staff currently interacts with 24 the ACRS. You do bundle together like technical topics 25
53 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and take them to ACRS. Sometimes you take them with 1
open items; sometimes you wait until you have no open 2
items. But that degree of engagement with the ACRS, 3
it is a level of increased finality that is helpful.
4 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
5 MR. HASTINGS: So there's a segue from this 6
to item 12 as well. This is Peter Hastings. I'm the 7
Vice President of Regulatory Affairs and Quality for 8
Kairos Power. And this maybe a good time to introduce 9
sort of the advanced reactor spin on this whole thing 10 before I go on to item 12.
11 My team and I on the Kairos team have been 12 involved in one way or the other in new plant development 13 since the early days of NP-2010. I've got members of 14 my team that worked on the AP1000 COLA design 15 certifications, the mPower light water reactor, other 16 light water SMRs. We've been working for the last 17 several years on advanced reactor regulatory framework 18 and have been with -- I've been with Kairos now for 19 about a year. Just for reference sake, we're a small 20 modular reactor based on Triso pebble fuel and molten 21 salt coolant. So distinctly non-light water reactor.
22 We're endeavoring to bring our Part 50 and 23 52 experience to bear in non-light water reactor 24 development. Importantly, based on the timing that 25
54 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Joe talked about for the rule, this rule change won't 1
be ready in time for near-term deployment of some 2
advanced reactors. And that's fine. We want to 3
clarify and reinforce industry's position that a rule 4
change is not required for near-term development. For 5
longer-term efficiency it certainly makes sense.
6 There is some risk to rule development 7
while applications are being developed, but let's say 8
that there's no perfect time for a rule change. And 9
so we're very pleased to support this effort and to 10 recognize the importance of clarifications to the rule 11 for longer-term efficiency and licensing 12 predictability.
13 And I personally really appreciate the 14 staff's receptiveness to incorporating lessons, some 15 of which were hard-fought, some of which are pretty 16 obvious in retrospect, in hindsight, but to develop 17 an improved set of rules going forward. The suggestion 18 that Dan made on item 11 would require changes to Part 19 52(b), Part 2, Section 101(a)(5) and probably some other 20 areas.
21 But to Fred's question on finality, it's 22 helpful to think of it in terms of incremental finality.
23 And this is what the whole staged licensing issue that 24 was popular in advanced reactor circles a couple of 25
55 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 years ago was all about. It's getting some financial 1
predictability into the system earlier so that one 2
doesn't have to go spend numbers with lots and lots 3
of zeros behind it before the NRC's first conclusion 4
on the design.
5 For item 12, as I said, it's a good segue 6
to that issue. And item 12 is all about some of that 7
work that's been done in advanced reactor regulatory 8
framework, notably the NRC's draft regulatory review 9
road map for non-LWRs, which provides for non-LWRs to 10 use preliminary design information in an SDA. And 11 that's not entirely consistent with the rule which 12 provides for, quote, "final design information for an 13 SDA," but that was -- I'm hopeful and of the belief 14 that that was done on purpose.
15 This provision of the road map recognizes 16 the value of a phased approach and the use of an SDA 17 for that phased approach; that is, utilizing the 18 existing tools available to the staff in lieu of going 19 off and developing a new, say -- let's call it a 20 Canadian-vendor-design-review-type process that we 21 collectively between the Agency and industry decided 22 wasn't needed because there were enough tools in the 23 NRC staff's tool kit already.
24 The PSID, preliminary safety 25
56 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 identification or information document, on the one hand 1
provides for a non-binding NRC staff review of 2
preliminary design information. Standard design 3
approval provides for a binding staff evaluation of 4
what's called final design in the regulation. We 5
believe that the NRC's road map recognizes that there's 6
a viable middle ground there that the SDA -- and SDA, 7
which is already established in terms of being able 8
to evaluate major portions of the design as opposed 9
to the complete design. That already sort of sets the 10 stage for the notion of a sliding scale, if you will, 11 of finality.
12 You get finality on what you present. And 13 so if you provide an SDA with preliminary information, 14 then the SER associated with that SDA is going to be 15 contingent on the satisfaction of that preliminary 16 information in what's ultimately set forth in future 17 license proceedings.
18 The industry owns all of that risk. If 19 we set forth an SDA with preliminary information and 20 the staff provides an SER and in a subsequent design 21 iteration the preliminary information becomes no longer 22 valid, then the impact of the SER and the finality 23 associated with that SER is the burden of the industry 24 to demonstrate that it's still acceptable or that it 25
57 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 needs to be revised.
1 So that's a long-winded explanation behind 2
what's behind item 12. We think that the 3
reconciliation of the language in the rule and the 4
language in the non-LWR road map is easy to do and would 5
be a beneficial change to the regulations.
6 MR. TSCHILTZ: Thank you, Peter. This is 7
Mike Tschiltz from NEI. This may be a good point, Jim, 8
if you were to consider taking a break in our 9
presentation.
10 MR. O'DRISCOLL: You read my mind.
11 So why don't we take a 15-minute break and 12 come back at let's say -- why don't we just come back 13 ate a quarter after, a little bit more than 15 minutes.
14 Quarter after 10. Thank you.
15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 16 off the record at 9:54 a.m. and resumed at 10:14 a.m.)
17 MR. SMITH: Okay, if everybody could take 18 their seat, we're going to get started again.
19 Robin, I don't know if you heard me, but 20 we're going to go ahead and get started again.
21 OPERATOR: Yes, the lines are open.
22 MR. SMITH: Great, thank you.
23 Okay, before we get started again, just 24 wanted to remind everyone not to discuss any classified, 25
58 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 safeguard, sensitive, or proprietary information.
1 Also, if you could state your name, your organization 2
prior to speaking, it'll help us to record information 3
and also for the folks on the line, for their benefit.
4 All right, you guys want to continue?
5 MR. BROWN: Mike, if I could, this is Fred 6
Brown with the NRC. I just want to correct confusion 7
that I inserted potentially into folks' minds in a 8
question on Item 11 about the staged approach. The 9
ACRS does review the staff's work under Subpart E for 10 standard design approval already. So my question was 11 really about finality, and Dan answered that question 12 that the industry does recognize there's a degree of 13 finality that doesn't involve the Commission and that 14 got to the point of the suggestion. So my thanks and 15 my apology for the confusion.
16 MR. TSCHILTZ: So this is Mike Tschiltz 17 from NEI. And so we're going to transition to other 18 10 CFR changes that kind of are corresponding changes 19 that come out of Implementation Part 52, and so I'll 20 turn it over to Southern for Item No. 13.
21 MS. AUGHTMAN: All right. Again, this is 22 Amy Aughtman from Southern Nuclear. And I'm pulling 23 up my notes to get them handy again.
24 25
59 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Okay, so this topic is on probabilistic 1
risk assessment or PRA requirements. And so this was 2
a fairly significant rule change from what has been 3
required for Part 50 applicants. And a couple of things 4
we want the staff to consider in this rulemaking; one 5
is Southern has found that the requirement to utilize 6
the NRC endorsed consistent standards that are in effect 7
one year prior to fuel load is probably not practical.
8 And Southern did seek relief from this through an 9
exemption request, which basically allowed us to use 10 the standards that are endorsed at the present time.
11 And so one suggestion we have is perhaps locking in 12 the standard that should be utilized at the time a COL 13 is issued. There may be other ways to accomplish that, 14 but just one year to get the PRA models developed and 15 peer reviewed, just is not really enough time by 16 considering everything else you have going on in that 17 one year leading up to fuel load. The second 18 requirement is in 50.71(h)(2) which requires an upgrade 19 every four years, so this is once you've achieved 20 operation and the upgrade must reflect endorsed 21 consensus standards in effect, again, one year prior 22 to the upgrade. Two things we'd like you to consider 23 there; one is, is the four-year frequency really the 24 right type of requirement upgrades or a little more 25
60 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 significant than a simple maintain and update, which 1
-- I say simple; those are not necessarily simple 2
themselves -- but an upgrade is additional scope and 3
burden that I just think we should re-examine the cost 4
benefit for requiring upgrades. So then beyond that, 5
again, if there are requirements for upgrades, one year 6
to get the models developed and peer-reviewed, again, 7
is probably not very realistic and we would ask for 8
you to reconsider at what point in time is the right 9
time to lock in the standard that we should be working 10 to.
11 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay, I think we'll 12 transition to Item No. 14.
13 Is that Chuck or Amy?
14 MS. AUGHTMAN: Oh, okay. Amy Aughtman, 15 again, for Southern. So this is on -- this item is 16 about the definitions on use of Commission-approved 17 simulators. This is an area that Southern discovered 18 perhaps the rules are not very clear on -- or don't 19 provide enough allowance or in particular when you're 20 trying to get started with cold licensed operators in 21 a design for which a simulator hasn't been approved 22 on yet. There's some opportunity to get some clarity 23 there on using a Commission-approved simulator and how 24 that compares to what the rules allow for plant 25
61 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 reference simulators. So this is another area Southern 1
had to -- actually, we requested approval from the 2
Commission for the simulator to be used; during that 3
review NRC staff determined an exemption is appropriate 4
and needed to allow us to refer back to the 5
Commission-approved simulator. And so we provided the 6
ML number there for the exemption requested -- sorry, 7
the exemption that was granted -- so that you can see 8
perhaps the rules may need to be adjusted to reflect 9
that.
10 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay, so the next item is 11 No. 15. Is that Pete?
12 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, so for 15 -- this is 13 Peter Hastings -- Dan coupled the first half of this 14 with his remarks on Item 11, so we don't need to 15 reiterate that, but the latter half of this, the next 16 as being 10 CFR 2.101 (a)(5); we would suggest that 17 the staff take a look at areas of the environmental 18 report in EIS where the impact is effectively 19 predetermined by the licensing action underway. So, 20 for example, it doesn't make a lot of sense to require 21 an additional set of radiological impact assessments 22 when the license is being issued sets the parameters 23 around which that licensee is able to operate already.
24 So look for any opportunities within the environmental 25
62 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 review that are duplicative of the work that's being 1
done elsewhere in the application, relatively 2
straightforward.
3 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay, No. 16.
4 MR. PIERCE: Chuck Pierce, Southern 5
Nuclear. I'm going to jump and talk a little bit about 6
Part 26. And during the construction phase for Vogtle 7
3 and 4 it was identified that the construct of 26.4(f) 8 does not provide for the use of -- or does not allow 9
for visitors to come on site and do safety or secured 10 work under escort. If you look at the construct for 11 the operating fleet, there is an allowance for visitors 12 to come on site and under appropriate escort -- I think 13 it's also in Part 73 -- to do work. So for the first 14 part here there will be a need as we get into the parts 15 of construction, particular as it deals with testing 16 and start-up for visitors to be engaged -- or for people 17 to come on site for very short terms and to support 18 the staff and get any equipment ready for start-up.
19 And so we anticipate that we will be using the 20 individuals a very short period of time; we would like 21 to use visitors under appropriate escort. We do have 22 a license amendment with an exemption applied for on 23 this, but I think it'd be appropriate to look at this 24 in a broader context of what might be appropriate for 25
63 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 a rule change.
1 Likewise, on the second part, we also use 2
Subpart K workers which are construction workers, 3
there's a provision in Part 26 for construction workers 4
specifically. And Subpart K is silent on certain, what 5
I call administrative provisions that are provided for, 6
for other works in Subpart's A-H, N and O. And the 7
one that particularly jumps out is the authorization 8
reinstatement provisions of 10 CFR 26.59. So if 9
somebody is, for example, off the site for 30 days, 10 there's a reinstatement provision for them to come back 11 on; so this is -- there are no similar provisions in 12 Subpart K, so it's silent on it -- and so we would like 13 the regulations clarified to how those provisions apply 14 back in the Subpart K provisions.
15 17, jumping forward. 17 deals with annual 16 fees of Part 170.15(e); currently annual fees begin 17 at -- for a plant, begin at 103(g) or when the 103(g) 18 decision is made. Historically, it appears to us that 19 the appropriate time for annual fees to begin is when 20 there's a derived economic benefit. And there's some 21 history to that being an appropriate time as well.
22 So our recommendation in looking at the annual fees 23 is that the annual fees begins, rather than beginning 24 at 103(g), they begin at commercial operation, the date 25
64 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of commercial operation when there's a derived economic 1
benefit.
2 MR. TSCHILTZ: Okay, this is Mike 3
Tschiltz, NEI. This brings us to No. 18 and I think 4
we're going to add one after 18 to the list here. But 5
for No. 18 I'd like Tom Bergman who's on the phone to 6
lead the industry discussion on that. So I don't know 7
if the operator can bring Tom in. He's going to press 8
Star 1 so he can talk.
9 OPERATOR: Thank you. If he'll please 10 press Star 1 so I can get his line open.
11 Okay, one moment.
12 Okay, your line's open.
13 Please unmute your line. Your line's 14 open.
15 MR. BERGMAN: Oh. Good morning, 16 everyone; this is Tom Bergman with NuScale Power. I 17 hope you can hear me clearly.
18 I am going to address 18 and then our 19 up-comments so I don't pop on and off the line. With 20 respect to 18, and it's broader than 20.1406, that some 21 clarity in to what extent the requirements in Part 20 22 need to be addressed by the DCA. The DCA in Subpart 23 B points to Part 20, but many of the requirements in 24 Part 20 refer to licensees. In general we need to 25
65 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 address questions on those requirements, though it 1
isn't clear they actually apply to a DC applicant.
2 So the applicability statements in Part 20 should be 3
modified to indicate what applicants under Part 52 are 4
required to comply with which requirements in Part 20, 5
because in our view the amount of information that we 6
provide on Part 20 goes beyond what's necessary for 7
a safety finding and it has little lasting regulatory 8
control because most of that information will be changed 9
by the COL applicant and/or holder, the licensee, later 10 as they actually get operating data from the plan, and 11 those changes typically would be made without engaging 12 the NRC at a later point. So that review provides an 13 appearance of regulatory control while actually 14 providing little. And that's sort of a general theme 15 of our comments and they do overlap some of the comments 16 the staff made, as well as the other participants with 17 NEI. And we do support the NEI comments. We have our 18 own lessons learned being a design to deviate 19 significantly from those that were considered when the 20 regulations were written using Fred's analogy of a 21 house; we're kind of a different kind of home -- not 22 a house -- I don't know what kind to call it, but we 23 look like a house, but we are different than the typical 24 house.
25 26
66 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And that theme I mentioned on Part 20 1
carries to the others that having applicants spend 2
effort in developing information for an application 3
and having the NRC review that information where it 4
has little or no effect on safety and can be changed 5
later without subsequent NRC reviews of limited value, 6
and this gets to the essentially complete requirement.
7 And Joe, I can't remember Joe Colaccino's exact 8
language, but it was along the lines of related to the 9
safety findings, and yet we feel our application goes 10 in the systems that there is no safety finding to be 11 made, other than perhaps a very high level along events 12 some of the general design criteria like 2, 4 and 5, 13 and there may be a way to modify application such that 14 the information in the FSAR is limited to that type 15 of finding, but the details that the staff may find 16 of interest are in a non-regulated, descriptive 17 document. And I bring it up because in the NuScale 18 design, once you leave the reactor building there's 19 almost nothing that has any safety significance at all.
20 And we think that will be typical of future advanced 21 reactor designs as well that you keep the safety stuff 22 close to the NSSS, and once you get into the balance 23 of plant, there's lower or no safety significance.
24 And we do think this is somewhat consistent with the 25
67 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 staff's effort to enhance the RAI process that tries 1
to tie them to sound regulatory basis, but clarifying 2
that whether it's in a state in consideration or within 3
the rule where essentially complete would be helpful.
4 The next, going to earlier discussion on 5
ITAAC; we do think more consistent regulatory guidance 6
on ITAAC would be beneficial. NEI 15-02 was a good 7
effort that was stopped; we understand it will soon 8
be resubmitted as NEI 18-01, but endorsed guidance on 9
appropriate ITAAC would be a regulatory improvement.
10 And in that guidance, and one thing we do appreciate 11 NRO's discussing with us is that acceptance of criteria 12 for ITAAC could without -- as a supplement to reduce 13 the burden on a change process that the ITAAC themselves 14 have flexibility for licensee's to meet the acceptance 15 criteria without necessarily changing the ITAAC. The 16 one example we typically use with the staff is the demand 17 and capacity ratios pointing to the code rather than 18 to the analysis that's part of FSAR that would give 19 the COL flexibility to modify the design, but because 20 it would still meet the code, it would still be safe.
21 Another comment Joe Colaccino, again, 22 brought up the SRP evaluation requirement, and I do 23 think that should be changed from a requirement to 24 guidance, but retained is an option. I think because 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 there may be a possibility a large light-water reactor 1
will be submitted or amended and they may find it useful 2
to do that analysis. NuScale is a light-water reactor 3
that's substantially different, the value of that 4
somewhat reduced that when you -- and the reason I bring 5
that up is when you deviate from the SRP substantially, 6
it's often times harder to explain to the staff why 7
that deviation is acceptable than just stating we had 8
an alternative approach to safety and we'd want that 9
evaluated on its merits. I recognize that that type 10 approach would require somewhat a function of change 11 of the staff that you're just saying we're not 12 conforming to certain reg guides in the SRP and here's 13 our approach to safety. We've no comparison at all, 14 but it is a possibility if something could be done.
15 Much is with DCA; either eliminate or extend the 16 duration of SDA's or develop a SDA renewal process which 17 isn't currently in there. I think this may be part 18 of the EPZ rule, or more appropriate there, but the 19 distance from population centers and 10 CFR 100 needs 20 to be rethought in light of the new designs.
21 And it was on Slide 9 a number of SECY papers 22 for reference, and it goes beyond those reference on 23 Slide 9. But SECY's should be converted into 24 regulatory guidance or requirements if the Commission 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 deems a requirement necessary. That would allow a more 1
public participation process than occurs with a SECY 2
paper, and it would also make sure that we understand 3
what the regulatory guidance is and reduce debates over 4
interpretation of SECY papers.
5 But overall, I just want to say we've 6
learned a lot working with Part 52 and we do encourage 7
the NRC to continue its consideration of improving the 8
Part 52 process.
9 That's all I have.
10 MR. TSCHILTZ: Thanks, Tom. This is Mike 11 Tschiltz, NEI. So we're at the point in the 12 presentation where we've ended our list of 18. I should 13 note that we provided the NRC with the list of 20 other 14 additional changes that we don't intend to cover at 15 the meeting, but we would like the NRC to include those 16 issues in its meeting summary. But there is one item 17 from that list that we'd like to mention, and I'm going 18 to ask Amy Aughtman of Southern to cover 10 CFR 73.58.
19 20 MS. AUGHTMAN: So this would be Item 15 21 for those that maybe want to follow along on the webinar.
22 And again, Amy Aughtman from Southern. This item has 23 to do with the provision in 10 CFR 73.58; that's the 24 safety security interface requirements. And in SECY-25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15-0002 there's a recommendation made for clarifying 1
that this rule should in fact be effective for Part 2
52 licensee's after issuance of the license, whereas 3
right now it indicates it applies to operating reactors.
4 And so I think this falls in the bucket of items that 5
the staff are calling issues that unnecessarily 6
challenged the staff and applicants and licensees where 7
we went through several months of debate with the staff 8
on whether this provision actually did apply for some 9
licensed amendments we were seeking shortly after we 10 got the COL. And there was a letter issued to clarify 11 that it should not apply until 103(g), and that ML number 12 is provided in these written comments, just to go back 13 and refer to. And again, recognizing the SECY is a 14 few years old, we'll just ask that the staff reconsider 15 the position that was stated in the SECY on revisiting 16 that, and keeping it at the stage of operation. The 17 way, at least 73.58 is implemented for operating plants, 18 is pretty involved in terms of you have significant 19 interface with various groups with an operating plant, 20 operations, maintenance, engineering, radiation 21 protection, not all those groups are available at the 22 time we're making changes early in a construction 23 environment. And so I think what was alluded to in 24 the letter that we reference here should be sufficient 25
71 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 for assuring that safety and security are balanced 1
during the change control process after a license is 2
issued. So we do have in our procedures, we do make 3
sure we're assessing security impacts for design 4
changes along the way. And certainly as security plans 5
are developed and further refined, those are taken into 6
account the state of design as they're developing those 7
strategies as well.
8 So just wanted to point that one out in 9
particular since it appears to be different than what 10 was proposed in the SECY.
11 MR. TSCHILTZ: So Mike Tschiltz from NEI.
12 We're transitioning back to the other list where we're 13 shifting to the section on recommendations for policy 14 statements or guidance associated with Part 52.
15 So there's two items on here, and I'll ask 16 Amy to talk about the first one.
17 MS. AUGHTMAN: Again, Amy Aughtman from 18 Southern. So what this is just offering as something 19 to consider is Tier 1 is issued, or identified I should 20 say, at the DCD phase and the licensee's then maintain 21 a plant specific Tier 1 document. And we have been 22 maintaining it separate and apart from our plant 23 specific DCD. So we have our USFAR which incorporates 24 the plant specific DCD, but the plant specific Tier 25
72 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 1 document -- so this is really just a technicality.
1 I don't know that there's a whole lot implication 2
either way here, that it's just something that has 3
caused a little bit of confusion that you may want to 4
look at does there need to be some clarification here.
5 For the avoidance of doubt we do maintain a plant 6
specific Tier 1 document; it's just a question of should 7
it be treated or identified as part of the USFAR.
8 MR. TSCHILTZ: So the second item on the 9
list involves the issue of standardization and finality 10 and the challenges it creates for especially 11 first-of-the-kind Part 52 licensees or applicants.
12 So I think what we're asking is part of the rulemaking 13 there be some kind of consideration of this and some 14 statement that revisits the balance struck between 15 standardization, finality and flexibility. So I think 16 this is important for future applicants and there were 17 some things said a long time ago about the Commission 18 on this, things have been implemented; I think it's 19 time to reflect to see whether we can more clearly state 20 this or strike a better balance on this issue. And 21 so that's the end of our comments here.
22 And so I'll note at this point that the 23 industry has another list of items that we've 24 characterized as parking lot items, things that were, 25
73 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 we've identified as potentially wanting to provide 1
input on at some point in time that we need to gain 2
consensus on. We need to see how the staff develops 3
a draft rule and what things are changed in there.
4 So we have an ongoing list of things to consider, so 5
it's important that we stay engaged and have public 6
interaction during the course of development of the 7
proposed rule.
8 And I think with that I'll offer to any 9
other of the industry panelists there to make a 10 statement.
11 MR. STOUT: I just want to follow up on 12 what Tom Bergman said on Part 100, and I'm not -- it 13 was my understanding that it wasn't part of the scope 14 of the EP rulemaking; if that's the case, then perhaps 15 this is the place to address it going back to the 16 alignment of 52 and that kind of stuff.
17 MR. TSCHILTZ: So that concludes the 18 industry panel's presentation.
19 MR. SMITH: All right, this is George 20 Smith, NRC facilitator. Robin, if you can ask those 21 on the line if there are any members of the public with 22 any other prepared remarks. We just want to find out 23 how many folks there, and I'll query the room here while 24 you're making that announcement.
25
74 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 OPERATOR: At this time if there is 1
questions from the phone line, please press star 2
followed by the number 1. Please unmute your line, 3
record your name clearly as prompted to be introduced.
4 Again, with questions from the phone line, please press 5
star followed by the number 1.
6 MR. SMITH: And again, Robin, just for 7
clarification, we've not began the Q&A session yet.
8 This was just -- we just want to find out if there are 9
any other members of the public with any prepared 10 remarks that they'd like to present at this time?
11 OPERATOR: Again, you can press star 1 with 12 any remarks.
13 MR. SMITH: Also, is there anyone in the 14 room here with prepared remarks they'd like to present?
15 Okay.
16 OPERATOR: And no one's queuing up for any 17 remarks at this time.
18 MR. SMITH: Okay, great. So at this time 19 we will transition into the open discussion Q&A session 20 where we'd like to hear your questions and comments 21 on the NRC presentation and discussions on what you've 22 heard so far today.
23 What we'll do, again, we'll query to see 24 how many folks may have questions in the room and on 25
75 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the line. If there are quite a bit of folks in the 1
room, I do have comment cards that we can use, but if 2
there are not, we won't use the comment cards. If there 3
are only a few folks in the room who would like to make 4
questions, have questions, then we won't sort of put 5
the hard time limit on that, but if we have a lot of 6
folks that would like to ask questions, then we'll try 7
to limit the time limit to about four minutes. Then 8
we'll let you have follow-up questions. But we do want 9
to make sure everyone has an opportunity to provide 10 their feedback.
11 Robin, if you can, if you can query on the 12 line to see if there's anyone who would like to 13 participate in the Q&A session, if they have any 14 questions at this time.
15 OPERATOR: And if there is questions on 16 the phone line, that is star followed by number 1.
17 Please unmute your line and record your name clearly.
18 I'll be standing by for any questions.
19 MR. SMITH: So I'm showing one individual 20 in the room. Do I have two?
21 Okay.
22 OPERATOR: And I'm not showing any on the 23 phone line at this time.
24 MR. SMITH: Okay, so those on the phone 25
76 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 line, if you have questions, we'll open the lines up 1
again for you to have questions if you hear something 2
during this process that you'd like to follow up with 3
a question.
4 So, we only have three people in the room.
5 We still would like to get -- try to be succinct at 6
your questions, and we'll try to get them to answer.
7 But if you can come up to the microphone up front and 8
ask your questions. Please state your name and the 9
organization that you're representing, please.
10 And also, before you get started, please 11 do not provide any kind of safeguards, sensitive 12 information, proprietary information with your 13 questions and your feedback.
14 Thanks.
15 MR. DOLLEY: Thank you. Steven Dolley, 16 S&P Global Platts. My question is just a clarification 17 on the industry recommendation No. 17 on 10 CFR 171, 18 the question of when annual fees will begin, should 19 they begin with the 103(g) decision or with the 20 beginning of commercial operation. But my 21 clarification question is when do the most significant 22 increases in NRC oversight, or rather the shift I should 23 say to oversight of an operating reactor take place?
24 Is the point that occurs the 103(g) decision or the 25
77 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 beginning of commercial operation? I'm trying to get 1
a sense of whether the recommendation matches up, the 2
recommendation for when the annual fees begin, matches 3
up with when NRC transitions from construction 4
oversight to the ROP, basically I guess. And would 5
it end up being a situation where if it did begin only 6
with commercial operation that there were a gap period 7
where there were increased NRC oversight that would 8
not be covered by annual fees if this proposal were 9
adopted.
10 MR. BROWN: Yes, so this is Fred Brown with 11 the NR -- I'll address the part of the question regarding 12 fees and the NRC activity. So we charge two types of 13 fees, 10 CFR Part 170 fees which are essentially a fee 14 for service and the license holder is currently paying 15 those fees for all of our inspections or licensing 16 reviews, so they are in fact paying for everything that 17 we do that's directly tied to the COL. The Part 171 18 fees which I understood the suggestion to focus on are 19 the cost recovery for the agency fees that are required 20 by separate statute which include the cost of the agency 21 that are attributable to the functional area, so in 22 this case reactor safety, and are spread across all 23 of the holders of operating licenses, which 24 historically have been Part 50 OL's. So I will defer 25
78 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 to Southern to their thoughts, but just to clarify on 1
the question; for the direct activities that the agency 2
perform that support Southern today, we are charging 3
fees. 171 fees would be for the infrastructure of the 4
agency.
5 MR. PIERCE: That's correct; today you're 6
charging the 170 variable fee structure. So its hours 7
-- and this is Chuck Pierce, Southern Nuclear; I should 8
have started out by saying that. As direct hours are 9
being used by the NRC for like NRC inspectors, there's 10 a direct charge for that going to Southern Nuclear, 11 so we do see fees today. With regard to when we 12 transition from construction operation, we're clearly 13 under construction today; when you move to start-up 14 and testing and particularly at 103(g) it started in 15 a transition area stage where you're still in a -- where 16 you were testing the plant and going through various 17 tests to demonstrate that the plan will work, and then 18 you end up in commercial operation after demonstration, 19 at some point, maybe six months in the future. And 20 then that's clearly operation, but you do load fuel 21 at 103(g) in order to be able to continue that start-up 22 program. So it's sort of a transitionary, sort of 23 transition over a period of time from what I'd call 24 construction into an operations program. It's not a 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 clear date that you go from one to the other.
1 MR. DOLLEY: But there would have to be 2
a specific time that had been reviewed under a 3
construction permit or the construction aspect of a 4
COL that goes over to operation in the ROP, right?
5 I mean, there's not a grey area on whether you're in 6
the ROP or not, as I understand it? Or is there?
7 MR. PIERCE: It's not a ROP, no.
8 MR. BROWN: Yes, this is Fred Brown again.
9 So the ROP is charged as 170 fees, as fee-for-service 10 direct fees.
11 MR. DOLLEY: Okay.
12 MR. BROWN: So to further -- I should have 13
-- I said the 171 covers infrastructure, so to be a 14 little clearer, rulemaking, the cost of the ACRS, the 15 cost of the computer systems, the docket, the 16 applications and all of our public outreach, the 17 Commission work devoted to reactor safety; all of those 18 things are covered under 171.
19 MR. DOLLEY: Generic.
20 MR. BROWN: So, in fact, the holder of the 21 COL has benefitted from all those things for the 22 existence of the COL, just not directly, not covered 23 under 170. So it's a policy decision to some extent.
24 At what point do we charge the 171 fee, and there's 25
80 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 probably more background that I'm not familiar with 1
in how that, what shapes that policy because it's not 2
in my part of the organization, but the real distinction 3
here is in this particular case Southern Nuclear is 4
paying 170 fees for all the direct service and they 5
will continue to pay 170 even after whether it's 103(d) 6 or commercial operations. It's a matter, though, of 7
when the rest of the allocated cost get distributed 8
out to the 171 payers, at what point they enter that 9
group.
10 MR. DOLLEY: Thanks, I appreciate the 11 clarification.
12 MR. SMITH: Please, again, state your name 13 and organization you're representing.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: I will. Joe Williams; I'm 15 a Senior Project Manager in the Office of New Reactors 16 and the Advanced Reactor and Policy branch. I was 17 actually one of the authors of SECY-15-0002. My focus 18 in that effort was on the Part 50 alignment with Part 19
- 52. I do have remarks on that and also some 20 observations regarding the Part 52 discussion. These 21 are thoughts for consideration both of the staff and 22 by the stakeholders here today. First of all, 23 pertaining to Part 50, there needs to be a what I would 24 think of as a line by line comparison of the regulations 25
81 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 within Part 50 and Part 52 to ensure that any gap has 1
been identified and dispositioned. An example of an 2
item that was not described in the Commission paper 3
that I realized was there, and it's related to some 4
of the items in the Commission paper; the paper talks 5
about the need to address severe accidents in some Part 6
50 applications. In Part 52 the 50.59-like change 7
process reads the same as 50.59 in the Part 50, except 8
it does also add some criteria for evaluation of changes 9
to severe accidents. And so there's an administrative 10 burden on Part 52 applicants to address changes for 11 severe accidents that would not appear for Part 50.
12 So supporting, adding severe accident issues to Part 13 52 -- or Part 50 reviews, I should say, supporting adding 14 those requirements to Part 50 you'd need to consider 15 whether or not, what changes need to be made to 59 or 16 other regulations. I think you also need to examine 17 other regulations that reference Part 50 and 52 to 18 determine whether or not the two different licensing 19 approaches are handled consistently. A particular 20 example that comes to mind is in Part 51, the regulation 21 51.50 says that an environmental report for a combined 22 license must address fuel cycle impacts for non-LWR's.
23 A non-LWR CP application does not include a similar 24 requirement, so making sure that the two schemes align 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 in that regard as well would be worthwhile, not just 1
for that line item, but any other items that might 2
appear.
3 Similar to some of the issues that were 4
described in the paper, there's a need to consider what 5
level of risk and severe accident information is 6
appropriate to provide with the construction permit 7
application. It's easy to contemplate how an operating 8
license would address those issues; you would expect 9
a similar level of the information that you would have 10 with the combined license application. But a CP is 11 based upon preliminary design information, not final 12 design information. So what would be the appropriate 13 level of preliminary severe accident information.
14 I'll note that that topic has some implications for 15 the ongoing licensing modernization project that we're 16 pursuing for advanced reactors, and so some clarity 17 in that regard for people that might be contemplating 18 a CP application would be beneficial.
19 A couple other topics that were addressed 20 in SECY-15-0002; there was discussion both of 10 CFR 21 50.54(h)(h) and also the Aircraft Impact Assessment, 22 Rule 10 CFR 50.150. In both cases the paper said that 23 the staff would provide some guidance to clarify 24 expectations for future applicants in that regard, but 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 perhaps also there should be some consideration given 1
to whether or not the rule language itself needs to 2
be clarified in those regards.
3 Also, now regarding the discussion of Part 4
52; some thoughts here, I'll note that I have some 5
familiarity with some of these topics. I was the author 6
of SECY-17-0075 that talked about the tiered 7
certification structure with a focus on Tier 2 Star; 8
regarding the tiered structure for design 9
certification, it occurs to me that the regulatory basis 10 development for the rule should assess whether or not 11 the challenges that we've seen lie within the structure 12 of the regulations themselves, the specific 13 implementation and a specific design certification, 14 or some combination of the two. It's certainly 15 reasonable to contemplate that we need a means to 16 address some of the simple editorial issues that were 17 described here today, but there's also, at least in 18 my mind, some challenges associated with basically some 19 sloppiness, if you will, that might have come about 20 in a rush to complete a certification review and what 21 obligation that might create for the certification 22 holder or the licensed applicant.
23 Regarding at-risk changes during 24 construction; it occurs to me -- and I want to emphasize 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that this is a personal view -- we should consider 1
whether or not a change like a process like the Notice 2
of Enforcement discretion that is applied to operating 3
reactors would be appropriate. It seems strange to 4
me that we can tell an operating reactor licensee that 5
they're permitted to deviate from their licensing basis 6
for a designated period of time, and that's for a 7
facility where there's actually a radiological hazard, 8
and nonetheless, have a different burden that supply 9
to a facility that doesn't even have any radionuclides 10 present on the site. So I think some consideration 11 of a process like that might be beneficial.
12 And finally, regarding standard design 13 approvals; I'll note that the Part 52 update in 2007 14 removed the preliminary design approvals that had been 15 previously in place, that process had previously been 16 in place and had actually been used quite a number of 17 times during the 1970's. There was quite a number of 18 preliminary design approvals that were issued and they 19 were often referenced in construction permit 20 applications. Reinstating a process like that might 21 address some of the questions and concerns that were 22 being described here earlier this morning regarding 23 the type of clarity that one might, finality if you 24 will, that one might obtain.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Thank you.
1 MR. SMITH: Thank you very much.
2 One moment, please. Robin, do you have 3
anyone on the line that's showing that they have a 4
question at this time?
5 OPERATOR: Yes, I do. I have Brian 6
Medders. Your line's open.
7 MR. MEDDERS: Thank you. My question was 8
previously answered, so I'm good.
9 MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, Brian.
10 Is there anyone else on the line, Robin?
11 OPERATOR: I'm showing no further 12 questions. But as a reminder, it's star followed by 13
- 1.
14 MR. SMITH: Do we have someone else behind 15 the column? I can't see.
16 No.
17 Okay.
18 OPERATOR: And I'm showing no further 19 questions.
20 MR. SMITH: Great, thank you. You going 21 to go up?
22 MS. CUBBAGE: Hi. Amy Cubbage, NRO staff.
23 I'd just like to support the comments that Joe Williams 24 just made and also add to a comment that he made at 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the end about the preliminary design approval process 1
and the standard design approval. One, a factor that 2
will need to be considered going forward whichever way 3
we go with that, is what is the ultimate purpose of 4
the approval and how it will be referenced in a 5
subsequent application. So, for example, is the SDA 6
or PDA were to be referenced in a construction permit 7
application, then a preliminary level of design 8
information may be appropriate. However, if the intent 9
is that the SDA be referenced in a combined license 10 application, then a final level of design information 11 would be warranted.
12 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
13 MR. MUNIZ: This is Adrian Muniz with the 14 Office of New Reactors; I'm a Project Manager in that 15 office. This is a question to, I believe, NEI on, 16 relates to Items 4 and 6 of your list that you discuss 17 on Page 2. The question is, if the staff were to move 18 forward and eventually remove the duration of the design 19 certification, therefore removing the requirement of 20 renewal, do you see still the need to then implement 21 Item 6 to allow for DC renewal applications following 22 a facility construction, an initial operation, given 23 that current regulations allow for amendments of the 24 design certification that subsequently get put into 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the rule through rulemaking?
1 MR. HARPER: This is Zach Harper, 2
Westinghouse. So I think that the three ideas that 3
were presented related to renewal are all independent 4
and could be implemented separately from each other.
5 I think all three are good proposals and I think that 6
it would depend on how it were implemented. If the 7
15-year design certification duration were to be 8
removed, I think it would depend on how, whether it 9
would apply retroactively to applications that have 10 already been submitted, or if it were just applied to 11 design certifications going forward. If it were 12 applied retroactively, then the need for some of the 13 other ideas would be become less important. If it were 14 just applied to those design certifications going 15 forward, then the need for a change to align the design 16 certification with a constructed operating facility, 17 USFAR would still exist.
18 MR. SMITH: Are there any other questions 19 here or statements here in the room?
20 Robin, do you have anyone indicating on 21 the line that they have a question or a statement they'd 22 like to make on the phone?
23 OPERATOR: At this time, if there's anyone 24 that has a statement or a question, please press star 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 followed by number 1.
1 I'm showing no statement or question at 2
this time.
3 MR. SMITH: Okay. Jim, it's showing that 4
there's no questions or statements. You can decide 5
if you'd like to continue on or you'd like to take a 6
little break or a lunch.
7 MR. O'DRISCOLL: Well, it's 11 o'clock.
8 I think we could probably finish through and be done 9
by noon, and then be done. But if there's -- we can 10 go along and see how this goes. But anyway, the next 11 step in our discussion is a facilitated Q&A. So I'm 12 just going to go ahead and do that.
13 So in our meeting notice we provided 14 several questions to the public on this activity. I'll 15 start the discussion by asking if there's anyone in 16 the room who would like to provide input on this 17 question; what elements of the Part 50 licensing process 18 should be aligned with Part 52 licensing process to 19 achieve equivalent outcomes under both new reactor 20 application or review processes? And along the same 21 lines, what elements of the Part 52 -- excuse me, Part 22 50 licensing process should not be aligned with Part 23 52 licensing process?
24 And then of course, in addition we'd like 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 your input on what elements of the Part 52 process should 1
be aligned to match or to be aligned with Part 50 as 2
well, so either way.
3 MR. SMITH: So anyone here in the room, 4
any feedback on this question?
5 Again, please state your name and 6
organization.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Once again, this is Joe 8
Williams, the Office of New Reactors. Consistent with 9
what I was saying a few minutes ago, my belief is that 10 a systematic look is needed both at the two regulatory 11 processes and across the entire regulatory set of other 12 regulations, Part 51 and so forth to ensure that we've 13 actually identified in this position all the 14 distinctions between the two regulatory processes.
15 MR. SMITH: Is there anyone else in the 16 room that would like to make a statement or have a 17 question?
18 Robin, is there anyone indicating on the 19 phone that they have a question or would like to --
20 or I'm sorry, would like to make a statement on this 21 question?
22 OPERATOR: Again, as a reminder, that's 23 star followed by 1 with a statement or question.
24 And I'm showing no statement or question 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 at this time.
1 MR. SMITH: Okay. Jim, if you can go to 2
the next --
3 MR. O'DRISCOLL: Okay, we're on Slide 17.
4 I'll ask the second question; what elements of the 5
Part 52 licensing process should be changed to address 6
difficulties encountered during previous licensing 7
reviews or improve clarity and provide more efficient 8
and effective reviews for future applications?
9 MR. SMITH: Is there anyone in the room 10 that would like to make a statement on this question?
11 MR. TSCHILTZ: This is Mike Tschiltz from 12 NEI. I think our presentation was focused on trying 13 to identify that those are common.
14 MR. SMITH: Thank you. Anyone else?
15 Robin, is there anyone on the line 16 indicating that they would like to make a statement 17 regarding this question?
18 OPERATOR: I'm showing no question or 19 statement at this time.
20 MR. SMITH: Jim?
21 MR. O'DRISCOLL: Okay, I'll go through the 22 third and final question. What transformational 23 changes can be implemented in the Part 52 licensing 24 process which would improve effectiveness and 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 efficiency within the framework of reasonable assurance 1
of adequate protection of safety and security?
2 MR. SMITH: Please.
3 MR. PETERS: This is Gary Peters from 4
Framatome. Both 50 and 52, a transformational is a 5
powerful word, but what we've been talking about here 6
basically tweaks, all right. If we do everything that 7
we said, we get what, 2, 3, 5 percent improvement in 8
schedule and cost maybe at the best. So 9
transformational you need to think differently; what 10 would it take to cut the schedule in half, to cut the 11 cost in half of going through this entire process.
12 And in order to do a transformational change, I mean 13 you got to start on a blank piece of paper; what are 14 we going to do that provides the highest safety for 15 our plant designs and regulate that; what are we going 16 to do second, what are we going to do third. And then 17 when we get to half of our schedule and our total cost 18 budget, well the rest of that probably isn't as 19 important because we've already did the top ten things, 20 we're not going to get through Items 11 through 150 21 because we've done the most important things to ensure 22 the adequate protection of the public.
23 So, again, the transformational concept 24 is you got to start from a blank piece of paper; you 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 can't tweak tweak, it's not going to happen.
1 MR. SMITH: If you can, again, restate your 2
name and organization just so we can --
3 MR. PETERS: Gary Peters, Framatome.
4 MR. SMITH: Great, thanks.
5 MS. CUBBAGE: Amy Cubbage, NRO staff.
6 Gary, thank you for that comment. I wanted to also 7
note that just yesterday the president signed as 15 8
which is a bill that directs the NRC staff to take a 9
look at rulemaking for a so-called sheet of paper, what 10 some have called a Part 53; the intent of that would 11 be to facilitate non-LWR reviews in the future, building 12 on what we're doing now with the licensing modernization 13 project. So I think a lot of the transformational 14 changes are coming in those arenas and hopefully there 15 may be some things that can spill over and help the 16 LWR community as well.
17 So, I just wanted to make that point.
18 MR. SMITH: Great, thank you.
19 MS. AUGHTMAN: Hi, Amy Aughtman from 20 Southern. I'll just add to a couple items there. I 21 also echo Mr. Peter's comments about the need for 22 transformational change; Mike Tschiltz from NEI alluded 23 earlier that industry does have some items that we put 24 in a parking lot type approach. What we presented today 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 were things that we felt could be most expeditiously 1
addressed. And so while certainly appreciate wanting 2
to think bigger, broader, get things done quicker with 3
less cost, there's also a recognition on how much the 4
staff can bite off at once. And so to the extent there's 5
an appetite for bigger thoughts and taking those on, 6
I think we're also prepared to address some of those 7
at a future time. So again, we recognize there's a 8
balance in how much you can take on; and so from a scoping 9
perspective if there's additional dialog the staff 10 wants to have on that type of topic, we'll be happy 11 to support that.
12 MR. TSCHILTZ: So this is Mike Tschiltz 13 at NEI. I think we did touch on a couple of issues 14 that I would consider the transformational; the first 15 one's the level of detail in the application and the 16 level of detail is captured in Tier 1 which would shorten 17 the duration of NRC's reviews if the focus was on only 18 those things most important to safety and reasonable 19 assurance.
20 So that was one thing. The second thing 21 I think is transformation is the interpretation of Part 22 52 concerning the compliance with the licensing basis 23 during construction. So from my perspective that's 24 transational from a viability perspective for new 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 construction in that, I think the options that we are 1
proposing have no impact on safety whatsoever. There 2
are licensee programs that maintain plant 3
configuration, there's the ITAAC that verifies that 4
there's the NRC's 103(g) decision that provides a number 5
of different opportunities for that flexibility. And 6
I'll note that operating plants that are in outages 7
make changes to their facility and submit license 8
amendments that aren't approved prior to them making 9
them during the outage, plants not operating, there's 10 no safety issue there. So a plant under construction 11 is in a similar circumstance; there's numerous 12 opportunities for NRC to, if there ever were a situation 13 where there would be concern for safety to interject 14 and regulate in that regard.
15 So those are the two things that we 16 discussed here that I would consider to be 17 transformational and the activities that we are 18 proposing.
19 MR. STOUT: This is Dan Stout, TVA. I'll 20 amplify a little bit on what Mike talked about in terms 21 of level of detail; just planting a thought that there's 22 the ability to have an application specific regulatory 23 engagement plan where you risk inform what an 24 application needs to look like in advance, and depending 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 upon the design there could be some hazards that are 1
NA, some accidents that are NA, like there could be 2
some accidents that require, they're unique and they 3
require lots of information, lots of level of detail 4
to address that. But I think if you start with the 5
4600-page standard review plan, there's a whole lot 6
of checklist items that are not necessarily an efficient 7
use of time by the applicant or the staff. And so if 8
we can somehow risk inform applications during the 9
application phase, documented in some kind of a 10 regulatory engagement plan that's application 11 specific, that industry can feel comfortable that an 12 application submitted with skinny sections in areas 13 that aren't important to safety won't get rejected.
14 Then there's savings to the applicant and there's 15 savings on the NRC side. At the same time, that 16 application better have lots of detail on areas that 17 are hazards or accidents that are unique to this 18 application. Having that alignment up front focuses 19 on what's important.
20 Thanks.
21 MR. SMITH: Anyone else in the room?
22 Robin, is any indication on the phone of 23 any statements?
24 OPERATOR: I'm showing no statements on 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the phone line at this time.
1 MR. SMITH: Okay. Jim, I'll turn it over 2
to you.
3 MR. O'DRISCOLL: Okay. It looks like 4
there's no more questions, so we're going to come to 5
the close. And I'll discuss next steps, so view the 6
next slide.
7 All right. As I stated previously, the 8
staff will consider the public's feedback from this 9
meeting when determining the scope of the regulatory 10 basis. We continue to identify the scope of the changes 11 to be included in the regulatory basis. We expect this 12 scoping work to be complete in late March 2019. We 13 intend to communicate a path forward to the Commission 14 in some venue soon after the scope is adequately 15 defined. We will then use that scope to develop a 16 regulatory basis; we expect this to be complete early 17 in the second quarter of Calendar Year 2020. We intend 18 to issue the draft and regulatory basis for public 19 comment and we also plan to hold additional stakeholder 20 meetings if there is interest.
21 Next slide.
22 So you can find information about this 23 rulemaking activity on regulations.gov. Please note 24 that if you search on regulations.gov on the docket 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 number NRC 2009-0196, you won't find anything right 1
now because there's no documents posted there, but 2
you'll see documents including the meeting slides.
3 This meeting summary will be there in about 30 days; 4
you'll be able to use that as your go-to, one-stop shop 5
to determine where we are with the rulemaking.
6 So --
7 MR. BROWN: Can I --?
8 MR. O'DRISCOLL: Sure.
9 MR. BROWN: So this is Fred Brown and I'm 10 going to do an unscripted, unplanned before Jim gets 11 to the closing of the meeting, administrative part.
12 I do want to thank everyone for their 13 participation today, both those in the room and those 14 on the phone. I appreciated actually all the comments; 15 I thought there was a lot of good input. I think that 16 the last thing that we talked about, the 17 transformational changes is an important one and I think 18 Mike kind of talked about how the industry has 19 structured their specific proposals to allow us to 20 consider the level of effort and the return on the 21 investment in proposing the expansion, the scope of 22 this approved rulemaking, because we do only get every 23 decade or so an opportunity to go back and look at these 24 rules.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I actually think that the level of detail 1
combined with SRP, combined with SRP modernization 2
efforts that the staff are undertaking now is 3
potentially transformative and I recognize the interest 4
on changes during construction is potentially 5
transformative. I would actually argue that our 6
willingness to look at design certification renewal 7
is transformative for a design cert holder and what 8
they have to do.
9 I think that I would ask -- I heard the 10 offer that there are things that were considered but 11 felt like not achievable in the near term. I would 12 ask that those be put on the docket and sent to Jim 13 so that we can include them in our background. As we 14 go through our set -- and Trish is going to kill me 15 from a rulemaking perspective -- I'm not making a 16 commitment that we're going to evaluate everything in 17 a way to where it slows down our ability to move smartly, 18 but we may look at some ideas that felt really 19 transformative but really hard to the industry, and 20 we might conclude there's a reg basis that we can put 21 together pretty easily for that. So give us that 22 chance; go ahead and send us what you have. And the 23 same holds true for the other members of the public 24 that are listening today and are in attendance on the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 phone today; please send us what you have. And then 1
I'll now turn back over to Jim who will cover how to 2
do that and when.
3 MR. O'DRISCOLL: On Slide 21, thanks very 4
much. So if you need that information, which you will, 5
please contact me at that information there.
6 So we also appreciate your feedback on the 7
public meeting itself, so we want to make sure that 8
you're satisfied with today's meeting if you have any 9
suggestions or how we should make it more effective.
10 So that QR code is for your use. On your way out please 11 take the public meeting feedback forms on the sign-in 12 table; once you complete the form you can leave it with 13 us or mail it in. You can access a link on the online 14
-- to the online feedback form in the meeting details 15 for this meeting on the NRC's public meeting schedule 16 page. Alternatively, you can scan this QR code that 17 can bring you directly to the online feedback form.
18 It should be up in the notification system today. Also, 19 if not, you can try it again tomorrow; in a couple of 20 days it'll be working if it's not working now.
21 Also, if you didn't sign the attendance 22 list, I would appreciate it if you could do that before 23 you head out. Thank you for attending. Have a great 24 afternoon.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. SMITH: Thank you, all. Robin, if we 1
can get a final count for the line, we'd appreciate 2
it.
3 OPERATOR: Yes, thank you. At this time 4
all phone lines can go ahead and disconnect. And thank 5
you for your participation.
6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, all. That's the 7
end of the meeting.
8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 9
off the record at 11:22 a.m.)
10