ML20134N042
| ML20134N042 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Saint Lucie  |
| Issue date: | 01/18/1995 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20134M972 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-96-485 NUDOCS 9702210177 | |
| Download: ML20134N042 (38) | |
Text
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1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA I 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1
3 +++++
l l
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS ,
l 5 INTERVIEW i
. 6 ------------------- - - - -
x 1
, 7 IN THE MATTER OF: :
8 INTERVIEW OF : Docket No.
9 JERRY KUNKEL : (not assigned) 10 :
1 11 ----- -- =------------ --
= = ---x 12 Wednesday, January 18, 1995 13 4
14 Training Building 5
15 St. Lucie Nuclear Plant 16 7585 South Highway A1A f
4
- 17 Jensen Beach, Florida 34957 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted,at 20 1
- 50 a.m.
21 BEFORE:
22 VANESSA SELEWSKI Investigator 4 24 l 25 EXHIBIT 7 -
l w,-m ia thc. o.:. ua ' " I OF_40 PAGE(S)
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2- 1:50 p.m.
3 MRS. SELEWSKI:- For-the_ record, it is 4 January 18th,'1995, and this is a transcribed interview l
5- of Jerry Kunkel, K-U-N-K-L-E. ;
6 MR. KUNKEL: K-E-L. -
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: K-E-L. And this interview is 8 being conducted at St. Lucie Power Plant. And present is 9 Mr. Kunkel and Investigator Vanessa Selewski with NRC.
10 I'll go ahead and tell you what the basic 7 11 allegation is and then w<t'll go-into specifics, ask you 12 some questions.
13 We've got an allegation or concern voiced by Norm !
14 Hallenbeck in which he feels.over a period of time he was_ ..
15 intimidated and harassed by his superiors, Ernie Poarch 16 and Herman Fagley, and that because he voiced some i i
17 concerns related to correct work and welding procedures he 'r 18 was demoted and his performance-appraisals were decreased 19 overLtime. ;
20 And we'll go ahead and ask you to raise your.
21 right hand.
22 Whereupon, 23 JERRY'KUNKEL, 24 beingl duly sworn by the Investigator, was examined and 25- testified as follows:
4 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION i
2 MRS. SELEWSKI: Please state your full name, 3 address, and telephone number.
4 MR. KUNKEL: Jerry Edward Kunkel. My address is 5( My phone (umber is .
6 area code -
f 7 What else? Is that it?
8 MRS. SELEWSKI: That's -- Thank you.
l 9 Would you tell me what your position is here, 10 Mr. Kunkel?
11 MR. KUNKEL: I'm a welding specialist, welding 12 engineer.
13 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. And how long have you 14 held that position?
15 MR. KUNKEL: It will be two years January the 16 20th, this month.
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay., And what did you do 18 before that?
l 19 MR. KUNKEL: I worked with the Test Staff 20 Department as a pipe fitter / welder. And that was-for Ca'tal'y tic, Incorporated and support groups.
~
21 22 And then I became part of FP&L in the welding 23 group.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. And who was your 25 supervisor? At one point was Mr. Hallenbeck your
/
f ,, "' / S c
4
. 5 1
j 1 supervisor?
I 4
, 2 MR. KUNKEL: Yes.
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.. And what time frame was 1
4 that that he was your supervisor? l
) 5 MR. KUNKEL: For approximately one year before I ;
- 6 started with FP&L we were on a temporary provisional basis 7 where we were at the time being hired in. ! ,
8 And then for two years after that I was working l 9 under Mr. Hallenbeck.
- 10 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. So for about --
11 MR. KUNKEL: About three years.
3 !
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- three years?
13 Okay. Has your relationship with Mr. Hallenbeck 14 been friendly or been, you know, a normal 4
l 15 supervisory / subordinate relationship over this period of j
- 16 time? l c .
t i 17 MR. KUNKEL: I would say over the entire time it c
18 was a very difficult relationship. I found him to be a ,
19 very hard person to please or to understand what he
- 20 expected of me. And there were some very difficult 21 moments throughout my period of working with i 22 Mr. Hallenbeck. 4 23 I'm sure that several other people have 24 understood that situation, also. And I explained that to 4
l- 25 Mr. DeSoiza and a few others, my superiors, as well as
6 j f
1 discussed it with Mr. Hallenbeck several times.
2 He was a very difficult man to work with -- or i
3 work for. And I think if anybody was harassed, it was 4 myself and a few others. And for what reasons I never 5 could quite understand.
6 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
7 MR. KUNKEL: I tried my best to do my best at 8 all times. But there seemed to be personality or envy, or 9 I have no idea. He seemed to be a very paranoid person as 10 far'as.being able to trust other people or understand 1
11 other people's functions. He had no compassion for 12 others. You know, it's very surprising.
13 It was very difficult, to say the least. And it
- 14 required us to voice our concerns to the point we were 15 ready tc,ask to leave that department and go somewhere 16 else.
17 MP.S . SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
MR. KUNKEL: And I guess that's what's 19 culminated to this situation. But we've been honest with l 20- everybody and we've tried our best. There's been a lot of I
21 people that have been under very difficult, stressful 1
22 situations with Mr. Hallenbeck. And everyone made him 23 aware of that and tried their best to work things out.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
25 MR. KUNKEL: He just seemed to not want to try
7 1 to work with others.
2 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
d 3 MR. KUNKEL: I don't know what else I could say, 4 other than that seems to be the total outlook of it. And J
S it was very difficult to work with him, but we always did 4
6 our best.
7 We always did the best as far as plant-wise.
8 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
9 MR. KUNKEL: We did follow all rules, all 10 regulations, the Welding Control Manual. And never, ever 11 attempted to cut any corners that wasn't necessary.
12 The man was very hard to please, so you're always 13 trying to do more than what he expected, or anybody else 14 expected.
15 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
16 MR. KUNKEL: And it just seemed like sometimes 17 he could turn it around and make you look bad so he would 18 look good, or something. It's a strange -- hard to figure ,
19 out why he was doing this.
)
l 20 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
21 MR. KUNKEL: There didn't seem to be an 22 explanation. Very difficult to communicate with him.
23 That's part of the main thing, that you just couldn't 24 quite communicate with him. You found yourself holding 25 back trying to express your feelings or interpretation of, i
~
l 1 1 you know, how we can approach this problem, or how do I 2 read this, you know, What should we do about this.
3 Suggestions, he wouldn't -- he'd shrug and do just the
]
l 4 opposite just.to -- I don't understand. l i
- 5 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. !
l ,
j 6 MR. KUNKEL: But it was very difficult.
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. And I'm going to get more 8 into that a little bit'later and ask you specific 9 questions about what his allegation is.
10 Have you ever heard or seen Mr. Hallenbeck being 11 harassed or intimidated by anyone, any of his superiors 12 like Mr. Poarch or Mr. Fagley?
t 13 MR. KUNKEL: No. No, I never have.
14 MRS. SELEWSKI: Were you aware that there were 15 -- that he had voiced that concern to anyone?
16 MR. KUNKEL: He certainly didn't share that with 17 me or my counterpart, Dale.
18 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. Had you heard at some 19 point that he had voiced a concern of intimidation and 20 harassment to someone here at the plant? 1 4
21 MR. KUNKEL: No. i i
22 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. There's an incident in 23 1993, Fall of '93, during an outage here regarding the 24 Bergen-Patterson Support for a component cooling water i
25 system where there was a weld that was unacceptable.
I i
i i
n :
10
{ 1 MRS. SELEWSKI: Do you-remember working in -- on
, 2 that particular_ weld at that time, maybe helping repair it i A
3 because it had to be taken apart and redone? .
l '
4 The part was bad or it was the wrong part that-5~ was placed in that area? i L
6 )Dt. KUNKEL: I don't recall offhand. But-7 anything we had done on any of the restraints in that area 8 we had done by, you know, the engineer's recommendations 9 and the manufacturer's recommendations.
10 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. There was an incident 11 regarding the DEH System in the Spring of '94, a Unit-One' :
12 outage.
13 A similar thing happened where Mr. Hallenbeck 14 wanted to stop work because a procedure needed to be i 15 amended.
16 Are you familiar with that incident at all? It 17 was in March of '94. Thin wall tubing. The amperage was 18- too high for thin tubing and they had to stop work and get 19 the procedure amended.
20 You're not familiar with that?
21 MR. KUNKEL: Not really, no. The procedures for
'22 welding tubing haven't been changed. I don't' understand 23 where he's coming up.with that.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
25 MR. KUNKEL: But if there had been some
7 i
l 11 1-1 concerns, the Quality Control Department would have been 2 involved. And I work very well with them. You know what f 3 I mean?
4 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
i 5 MR. KUNKEL: I don't understand why he's saying 6 we had to stop working.
f
- 7 MR. KUNKEL
- Maybe you -- Do you remember 8 working on that system during that time? '
9 MR. KUNKEL: I worked on a lot of the weld
) 10 travelers' paper recommendations, and distributing filler
, 11 materials and such.
I 12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
i 13 MR. KUNKEL: Field s'rveillance u was usually held i :
l 14 for welding engineers as they come in and support our
. l l 15- activities. They go out and ensure trat the paperwork is !
2 l 16 followed and the weld procedures and the rules. ,
i 17 And then Q.C. comes behind and follows them, l
18 checking the hold points and everything like that.
19 But as far as changing any weld procedures or 20 stop work on anything, I don't recall anything like that.
21 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. Now -- And this is just 22 something-that I'm just trying.to get information from you 23 that-you're aware of. I'm not saying that you should have 24 been aware of it, that you have to be aware of it. These i 25 were just some instances in'which Mr. Hallenbeck is
,_ . . - - - - - 1
12 1 claiming that Mr. Poarch harassed him after he wanted to i
2 stop work and get some changes made.
l 3 MR. KUNKEL: I'm not aware --
)
4 MRS. SELEWSKI: So you're not aware of that i l
5 situation?
6 MR. KUNKEL: I'm not aware of any harassment l 7 involved with changing welder seams, no.
8 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. There was an incident 9 that took place between Dale Jacobs and Mr. Hallenbeck in 10 April of '94, a confrontation, I guess you could call it.
11 And Mr. Hallenbeck is claiming that his subordinates, or 12 you and Mr. Jacobs worked well together and then for some 13 reason you both just turned against him.
14 And he feels like that was part of Poarch's 15 poisoning the mind of you guys and turning them against 16 him because he voiced some concerns about, you know, 17 stopping work and insisting on correct work procedures.
18 Was there a time when Mr. Poarch or Mr. Fagley 19 tried to get you to report directly to them instead of --
20 MR. KUNKEL: No, never.
21 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- instead of Mr. Hallenbeck 22 or --
23 MR. KUNKEL: No. I believe this was just after 24 the outage of '94. And we had a very difficult outage as 25 far as communication problems.
13 1 It came to a point to where Dale and I had been l- 2 discussing amongst ourselves how difficult it was to talk 3 to Norm and to get through to Norm about our jobs and how
(
- 4 difficult we felt working with him.
- 5 And we had already talked to Ernie Poarch and i
- 6 Herman Fagley expressing our concerns. And they suggested
\
[ 7 that we follow the correct route,'as to go talk to Human l
[ 8 Resources, Mr. DeSoiza, and which we both did.
l 9 And from that point on any' conversations or.
- J
! 10 confrontations that Hallenbeck had with Ernie or Herman, )
j_ 'll we were not made aware of.
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
13 MR. KUNKEL: We understood that there were 1
14 things going on, but we were not brought to light as to q 15 what it was.
. 16' MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
}
17 MR. KUNKEL: As far as Dale and I ever turning 18 against Norman, now, we've always supported him as far as 19 our jobs go and tried our best to do our jobs. But he 20 'seems to be alienating us from what was going on. And we 21 found it very evident during that outage where we were 22 left out of a lot of important things that we didn't know 23 about, or heard about things that we weren't a part of 3
t 24 being the welding department.
25 But we never.were directly confronted by Ernie or
( --
14 1 Herman, you know, to take their supervision and to go I
2 beyond Norm. You know, there's always a chain of command.
l 3 That's the way it's always been.
4 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. The incident mainly 5 involved Dale Jacobs and, I guess, from what Hallenbeck is 6 saying, Jacobs, you know, called him a liar and, you know, 7 said, you know, you've been lying to us and, you know, you 8 deleted work files or welding files. ,
9 MR. KUNKEL: Uh-huh.
' 10 MRS. SELEWSKI: And they kind of got into an 11 argument about that.
12 Were you aware of that incident?
13 MR. KUNKEL: Yes. I heard quite a lot about ,
14 that. And --
15 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
16 MR. KUNKEL: But it's true that he had deleted 17 files that were difficult for us to replace and remake.
18 He did say a lot of things that were very untrue to other '
19 people to make us look bad. There were a lot of lies that 20 we found out from other people. And, you know,'he was 21 telling them things that just were not true.
22 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
23 MR. KUNKEL: That's what culminated to be a --
l 24 it was very difficult to work with him. We didn't know 25 what to say to him, how to relate to him. And we were i I
u, -, - , - ,
- .- . . . _ - .= - .
15 1 talking about asking for transfers to other departments if 2 anything came open because we just could not work with the 3 man.
4 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. When did those problems 5 start with your not being ab.'.e to work v.4.th him, with 6 Mr. Hallenbeck, and finding out he's told --
7 MR. KUNKEL: The previous year to 18 months, I 8 guess. Just after we really got hired in. But, you know, 9 Dale had worked with Norm for quite a few years before 10 that. And they had a reasonably good working relationship 11 in the beginning. But it became more and more evident 12 that Norm was a very difficult person to trust and believe 13 in. And we didn't know what his motives were and what he 14 was saying to other people, and why,he said some things to
- 15. other people that were just very untrue.
16 And it got to'be to the point where you were very 17 scared or didn't know what to think.
And it's very 18 difficult to talk to him or communicate with him.
i 19 MRS. SELEWSKI: So with you it's been from the 1 20 very beginning having problems with communicating and 21 understanding what his expectations were, Mr.
22 Hallenbeck's?
23 MR. KUNKEL: Uh-huh. We originally, when we 24 first talked to him, the first interview for me to join 25 the group, that I had a great deal of welding experience
' 16 l
1 in the nuclear industry and the problems that you incur 2 with plants, operating plants.
3 And being a very experienced welder, I believe he 1
4 anticipated that I might be a sery good asset to the group 5 as far as having a hands-on experience and approach to 6 solving problems because welding problems can occur when 7 operating a plant.
- 8 And after a while he seemed to be more jealous of 5
9 that, to the point where he would not allow me to use my 10 talents or skills or develop them, or whatever. He tied
$ 11 me down to the clerical end, you know, to keep me from 12 really pursuing my potential. And it became pretty 13 obvious to the others that that's what he was doing to me. .
14 And I just feel I grasped everything I could that 15 he wanted me to learn. But any of my input into problem i 16 solving, he just wanted to shrug his shoulders or do just 17 the opposite, you know, for fear that he would be looked 18 at as not the leader and not the one who came up with the 19 problem-solving effort to that.
20 And I believe that's why he started to shut me 21 out or tried to make me look like I was too inexperienced 22 or vice versa that, you know, I couldn't promote the 23 department.
24 You know, and that became very difficult. I 25 didn't know what he expected of me and I didn't know why 1
1 i
- 17
!, l he was saying some of the things he would say to me or to i
, 2 others about me, and things like that.
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
A 4 MR.-KUNKEL: And I guess that really made Dale 5 pretty uneasy about it, too. It didn't seem fair to him 6 that he would treat me the way he was. He asked me not to 1
7 speak t'o certain people about things. j i
8 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. I 1
4 9 MR. KUNKEL: That it would make him look bad. 4 1
10 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
11 MR. KUNKEL: And it got to the point where I --
12 he'd send me to meetings and he'd say, just don't say 13 anything. And I thought I had a lot of good ideas,-good
'14 input, which I wasn't allowed to say it for fear anybody 15 .would say, well, Kunkel said this. Oh, I'd never hear the 16 end of it, you know.
17 MRS.-SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
18 MR. KUNKEL: So it got to be a very difficult 19 situation as far as me being able to perform my job duties ;
20 ~ and functions and be a good asset to the department.
21 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
J 22 MR. KUNKEL: And we were at the point we just I
.23 didn't know what to say or think or do.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. You don't know what his l
25 thinking was during that time when he was -- j 1
1
18 1 MR. KUNKEL: He seemed to be getting more and 2 more paranoid about something in his own position, like he 3 was losing allies. He was being alienated by himself, 4 only himself, and not able to function in his own part for l 1
1 5 some reason. '
i 6 And that wasn't due to Dale and I not trying to 7 support our group. We did everything we possibly could ,
8 and still do, you know. j 9 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. When was it that you i
- 10 started voicing your concerns about Mr. Hallenbeck?
t 11 .
You went -- Did you voice them to Human Resources 1
12 at some point?
13 MR. KUNKEL: Yes. It was the beginning of last f
, 14 year, sometime in February or March, April. Somewhere in i
15 there. I'm not sure.
l 16 MRS. SELEWSKI: Of '947 i j 17 MR. KUNKEL: Yeah. I had a few of the welding 18 engineers respond to me saying, you shouldn't have to l 19 listen to the way he talks to you like that. You should 20 say something to somebody.
21 I said, I'm just too new in my position to start 22 complaining about the way a supervisor speaks to me or 23 treats me. I don't want to lose my job because of him 24 saying things against me, which he's doing.
25 They said, well, you need to say something. And )
I
1 1
19 4
1 at the time I was talking to a therapist.through the EAP 2 System about some problems And part 3 of those problems did reflect in the way I was being -
4 treated by Norm.
5 %
! 6 And I was going through.eome
- 7 troubled times and I was having a real difficult time at
- 8 work. And I had mentioned that to Mr. DeSoiza when I 4
9 talked to him, saying, I'm having a problem with this.
) 10 And, you know, if it gets to the point where I just need 4
11 to go back to working with Catalytic because the stress is 12 too high here, then I may have to do that. But I was told t
l 13 by several people that this is the route to go to make '
l 14 your concerns in the right way. Don't just suddenly, you l
! l 15 know, leave or anything like that.
l .
l
) 16 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
17 MR. KUNKEL: So that's why I spoke to l 18 Mr. DeSoiza. And it was under the recommendations of some 1
19 people who thought that was the best way to go.
20 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. ..
~ '
i 21
- MR. KUNKEL: And I see now that maybe that was 22 the correct way because Dale Jacobs has felt the same way, i
j 23 And I told him, you know, this is the way to go.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
25 MR. KUNKEL: It's, I guess, company policy, but 9
ge p:/-
~
i 20'
- 1 .that's-how you voice your concerns.
. 2 MRT) . SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. So that was around the I i j l 3- first of the year in 19947 j 4 MR. KUNKEL: In the'beginning of the year, yes.
- j. 5 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did you go to anyone else, other
$- 6 than the Human Resources?
7 MR. KUNKEL: Well, previous to going to Human
}
8 Resources I had mentioned it to Mr. Poarch and to i
- l 9 Mr. Fagley. And they would only suggest is, well, we i
, 10 understand the concerns. We've heard a lot about it,'too. ;
f- 11 The main thing is if you feel that adamant about, you (
- 12 know, your situation, we don't want to lose you, take it j
! I j 13 to Human Resources so to make a-record of yogr feelings l i
14 and concerns. And if you do decide to leave, they'll l
j o 15 understand why.
i .
{ 16 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
17 MR. KUNKEL: So that's what I did.
. i l 18 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did they say that they, t
-3 j 19 themselves, would take any action, Mr. roarch or
{
! 20 Mr. Fagley? ;
i i 21 MR. KUNKEL: At the time they hadn't said
- 22 anything about considering any action.. They were aware of i .
23 it. So apparently other people had v61ced their concerns !
l 24 about Norm's behavior.
1 ,
i 25 And I had heard from several other people that 4 i i.
4-
.trw-, ,.,--- - y - - , - - -- ~ ,, -
21 1 they were very concerned about run-ins with Norm and how 2 it affects the whole Construction Services Department, you I 3 know.
4 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. Okay. The incident S related to Jacobs and the confrontation between he and 6 Mr. Hallenbeck, did Mr. Jacobs tell you about that or did 7 you hear it through the grapevine or --
8 MR. KUNKEL: He told me quite a bit about it and 9 explained that he had just gotten to the point he was fed 10 up with Norm lying to him and the way Norm was treating 11 me, and he just had to let Norm know. And the only way he 12 seemed to think Norm would understand is if he spoke to 13 Norm the way Norm had spoke to him at certain times.
14 And he'd just, you know, get very upset and very 15 loud and finger-pointing, and dah, dah, dah. You know, 16 just to the point where you were intimidated to the point i l
17 or you were afraid to respond t.o your supervisor in the ;
)
18 same fashion. l l
19 But Dale said that he just couldn't hold it back l
20 any longer and if it was necessary, he would have quit j 21 then, just as long as he let Norm know how he felt about 22 him. )
23 And like I said, after the outage everyone had .
24 been under a great deal of stress and strain. And you're 25 on the verge of expressing all of that at one time. And I
i 22
, 1 guess Dale just let it all out.
3
[ 2 HRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
i 3 MR. KUNKEL: I believe Dale said that Norm was
! 4 the one who initiated it by taking him over to a room and 5 saying, I see something wrong with you and I don't like
- 6 it. And then it just all came out and culminated to an 7 incident.
8 And' Dale said he felt a little ashamed about the 9 way he had lost control as far as getting angry, shouting, 10 just the way Norm does that. .You know, he said, I lowered 11 myself to his level when I started communicating that way.
12 He said it had been building up for such a long time.
13 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. One of his, Hallenbeck's, 14 concerns is related to the performance appraisals, you 15 know, where he felt he had'been getting really good 16 reviews and then all of a sudden in -- over a time, but 17 mainly t.he last interim appraisal that he got was' dated --
18 I think it was May of -- February of '94.
19 So that would have been the time frame after you 20 had went to Human Resources when he'd gotten an appraisal 21 mainly discussing his interpersonal skills and how he had 22 a problem relating to his employees.
23 And his appraisal was very specific on his 24 relationship with his employees and that he needed to
. 25 improve, and this-and that.
23 1 Were you aware of any of that, about his
! . 2 performance appraisals decreasing or that --
i i 3 MR. KUNKEL: Not at that time. I had heard i
- 4 later that that was one of the reasons Norm -- he refused i
l 5 to come in. We didn't see him for the longest timg. We
- 6 didnt know why he wasn't coming to work. .-
7 And we had heard something from someone about,
- 8 well, I heard he got a bad appraisal. I didn't know what l 9 it was about. But apparently they thought he was very 1
, 10 upset about that.
II r}(,
f 12 13 )-
l 14 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. j 15 MR. KUNKEL: And this was through December. And j a
16 we were told, well, we can't tell you anything of what's l l
! 17 going on. So we just --
i l 18 MRS. SELEWSKI: What kind of appraisals did you l 19 get from Mr. Hallenbeck? Were they average or --
i
! 20 MR. KUNKEL: They seemed to be average, yeah.
i j 21 MRS. SELEWSKI: All right. Were you aware of i
~
22 the reassignment of Mr. Hallenbeck from his supervisory i
i 23 position to debugging the computer program in May of '947
. 24 MR. KUNKEL: We only heard that that was a i
i 25 position that was offered to him to come back to work.
4 i
, m l- \
i
/G.[OQ/no
J
- 24 1 There wasn't any specifics of why or -- That was one of 2 the first things we heard of why -- that he hadn't come 3 back to work, but they asked that, you know, if he wanted 4 to come back, we could assign him another position. And 5 it was to be under special projects or something like 6 that.
. 7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
8 MR. KUNKEL: But the specifics of why -- of that 9 situation, we weren't made aware of.
10 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. Have you ever had any 11 kind of problems communicating with Mr. Poaren or anything 4
12 that you saw as intimidating or harassing on his part 13 against you?
14 MR. KUNKEL: No. No. I find that Ernie and 15 Herman and everyone else in the other departments are very 16 easy people to work with. I've never had any problems 17 with them or any words. You know, they're very helpful.
18 I respect them as supervisors and managers. And they're 19 very cordial, down-to-earth people. Very easy to 20 communicate with.
21 And they always let me know, you know, how I'm 22 doing and they're helpful to my suggestions. And they 23 appreciate, you know, the work we do.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: I think I mentioned before that 25 Mr. Hallenbeck felt that you and Dale were confused and
25 l l
1 didn't know who to listen to because Mr. Poarch was !
l 2 directing them -- directing you and Dale himself instead .
l j 3 of going through -- l
. I 4 MR. KUNKEL: No. We never received -- I 5 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- Hallenbeck.
I 6 MR. KUNKEL: -- any directions from frnie or 7 Herman pertaining to welding matters or personal matters, l 8 or anything like that. !
j 9 MRS. SELEWSKI: It appeared Mr. Hallenbeck 1
10 didn't really understand -- or at least he didn't mention l
11 when I talked to him that you and Dale really had problems i 12 with him as a supervisor, and that that may have been why *
. 13 you reacted -- or why Dale, of course, reacted the way he 14 did with the build-up of frustration and this and that. I 15 He didn't -- Hallenbeck didn't seem to have any l
i 16 inkling, at least in talking to me, that that was a l
. I 17 problem.
l 18 Did you talk to Hallenbeck yourself about 4
19 concerns yta had with the way he was treating you or --
20 MR. KUNKEL: There were several incidences where 21 Norm would take us aside and he would, in a way, an !
h 22 intimidating way, tell us his feelings about our I 23 performance or something we did or said to someone else,
, 24 and how it made him feel bad or whatever.
25 And I would respond like I don't understand where !
1 l
l
4 26 ,
J
. 1 you see that way, you know. Or why are you perceiving my j 1
2 actions or my job performance that it is in some way 3 hurting you or making you look bad. And why do you speak
]
4 to me in the way that is so demeaning, like'I'm a human l
! l l 5 being, too. And I'm always trying to do my best in my job 6 and support our group, our department. !
i 7 I want to be a part of the team, but you keep
- l 8 telling me that I'm not doing the team efforts and I'm -
j 9 trying to stand alone or I'm trying to make decisions 10 without anybody else's input. And I gave him very -- l f
11 circumstances very enlightening that I was trying to do i
12 that.
! 13 And he would get upset. And finally to a point 14 sometimes he would say, well, I don't have anything else i
^
15 to say. I can't say any more. And he would storm away,
! 16 walk away.
J 17 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. l 18 MR. KUNKEL: Not even like a supervisor would !
4 19 try to resolve something or, you know, speak to a person i
20 in a way that's helpful and supportive or encouraging.
21 It got to be a point where you were intimidated,
]
22 you were afraid to respond to him. His tone of voice 1
23 would make you feel like, how am I supposed to respond to 24 a supervisor, raise my tone of voice or whatever, or 25 dispute what he says, or say that's not true. And have f
I 27 1 him say, well, are you calling me a liar or something. i l
2 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. l 3 MR. KUNKEL: I couldn't let that kind of a >
4 situation arjae when speaking to him. And he would only I 5 do that when he would take you out of the context of 6 others and allow, you know, your -- the situation that he 7 could intimidate you and talk to you like that in a 8 demeaning way. !
9 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
10 MR. KUNKEL: And it hurt my feelings in a lot of 11 ways because I'm just, you know, a sensitive person and I 12 don't like to talk to people like that or hear people 13 talking like that. ,
14 I'm raising two kids of my own and you have to be 15 very careful how you speak to those little innocent ones, 16 because they -- they're impressionable. So --
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: So there were times when you did 18 go to him and say, you know --
19 MR. KUNKEL: Uh-huh.
20 MR. KUNKEL: -- lock, I don't understand what's 21 going on, what --
MR. KUNKEL:
22 Exactly.
23 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- why are you saying these 24 things to me or talking to me this way. !
3 25 MR. KUNKEL: Exactly.
i
28 1 MRS. SELEWSKI: And he just really didn't want 2 to discuss it.
3 MR. KUNKEL: He didn't understand why he j 4 couldn't get me mad or excited or, you know, to the point 5 where I would, you know, have a negative attitude or 4
6 anything like that, or bring something out in me that he i 7 was suspicious of, which really wasn't there. l I 8 He didn't have that ability to control a person's 9 emotions, I guess you would say, in a way that he felt 10 effective and powerful over them. And that was a little l 11 bit scary to me. He seemed to be a rather paranoid 12 person, that if he couldn't communicate with you in a way 13 that made him feel overwhelming and made you feel 4
14 belittled, you know, he had no control.
15 MRS. SELEWSKI: What were some of the things 16 that he said to you that made you feel intimidated or 17 harassed? Was it a combination of tone and words that he 18 used, or his whole manner of --
- 19 MR. KUNKEL
- Some of the actions, some of the 20 responses to our work, or whatever, he felt that he was 21 intimidated because I responded in a correct way, or I 22 communicated with other people in an informative way, and 23 an encouraging way. And he perceived that to be that I 24 was not including him into it or, you know, well, you're 1
25 working so well with all these others, I hear all these
. . . - . - . - - - - . - . ~ _ . . _ . _ -
l 1
29 )
i 1 good reports, and are you really staying with the !
2 department or are you, you know, doing things that the )
l 3 department wouldn't like. !
4 And I says, I would never do that. You know, and 5 you can see that -- You know, you see people audit us and 6 we have no problems with those things. You know, we work 7 right by the book and by the procedures. And I said, I i 8 can't understand why you want me to not communicate with 9 people to not let them know, you know, the things that 10 they need to know to do the job or to verify the job is 1
11 done correctly. You know, I don't understand that.
12 And he wouldn't be able to communicate or explain 13 it to ce without getting all upset that -- He was a very ,
14 intimidating person when it came to that point. ,
15 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did he tell you not to voice --
16 not to talk during meetings and --
17 MR. KUNKEL: Yes.
18 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- stay silent and --
19 MR. KUNKEL: Yes. j 20 MRS. SELEWSKI: Do you consider that i
21 intimidating or harassing that, you know, he -- you '
22 weren't -- Did you feel -- Did you not feel free to voice )
l' 23 concerns or --
24 MR. KUNKEL: Exactly.
25 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- make opinions during 1
i
+
4 30 1 meetings?
1 2 MR. KUNKEL: Exactly. Several times. And I
- 3 asked him why not. And he says, well, I don't know what l 4 you're going to say and I'd have to refute it later, you 5 know, if I didn't agree with it.
l 6 I said, I wouldn't say anything that you might ;
- 7 have to refute or disagree with. I'd only explain what it l
8 says in the weld manual how to do it and what's the l H
j 9 correct way to do it, or whatever. I would give the f l j' 10 impression that, you know, we work together as a team. )
~
11 And, you know, I said, if there was a question, l 12 I'd say, I'd have to talk to my supervisor first. I'said, ,
l 13 I'd at least like to respond. But if you ask me not to i !
14 say anything at all, I can't understand why. I have, you j 15 know, a lot of good input and I can respond for us. And I i 4
16 felt, you know, he didn't seem to understand that. He i i 17 just said, don't say anything.
1 MRS. SELEWSKI:
18 Did he ever tell you that you 19 weren't free to voice concerns to NRC or the management? ,
, 20 MR. KUNKEL: He had said that if we ever get ;
21 audited by an NRC person, he said, just answer their l 1
[ 22 questions matter-of-factly and frankly. If you don't know 23 the answer or the exact, you know, if you don't understand 1
24 the question or get the meaning of the question, he said, 1
~
25 just refer them to your supervisor for a more clear, you I
i
31 1 know, explanation of it.
2 He was only helpful to an extent that would 3 justify covering himself or, you know, had a feeling that 4 he was out on a'li:mb by someone else being too aggressive
- 5 and trying to explain something that they didn't
$ 6 understand.
7 And I understood that to a point where, you know, 4
8 I knew my. limitations as to how to respond. But if I knew 4
9 the answer and I knew a correct answer and there was i 10 nothing to worry about, I would feel free to respond.
l 11 Yet, I wouldn't know what he was going to think about that 12 and I would get that kind of uneasy feeling.
- 13 MRS. SELEWSKI
- Did you ever tell him that you 14 were going to go talk to Human Resources or anyone about-i i
15 his intimidation and harassment of you?
16 MR. KUNKEL: No. This was something that I did
! 17 on my own. I had talked to him several times before that 1
18 leading up to that that, you know, I felt very uneasy with
) .19 the way we communicated. And there were times that I just i 20 didn't know what to say to him or respond to him.
21 And I felt uncomfortable with expressing my 22 abilities to solve problems or give suggestions. And he 23 didn't have a lot to respond to that.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: You felt like he just didn't 25 listen to what you had to say?
1 32 1 MR. KUNKEL: He didn't want to hear it. He 2 didn't want to hear it. He didn't ever request any l 3 interpretation or advice or recommendations.
4 And what hurt a lot is, though, when other people 5 came to our department and they asked me, I felt very 6 uncomfortable trying to give my feelings to them without 7 letting Norm know about it because I was told several 8 times whe'n he overheard conversations -- our rooms were 9 right next to each other -- someone would ask me a 10 question and I'd give a response and say, I'm very -- I'm 11 pretty sure that's the way you go with that, but we need 12 to go talk to Norm about it.
13 And we'd walk around the corner and we'd talk to 14 him about it. And after the other people would leave, 15 he'd get all over me about even saying anything to these 16 people before coming to him. And he told me, he says, 17 don't say anything to anybody until you talk to me firsc.
18 And from that point on I just felt like I was cut 19 off. How can I even respond to anybody's questions or 20 request for a direction, technical assistance in welding 21 matters without first having to come to Norm and say, this 22 is my suggestion, this is what I want to tell them, is 23 this right or wrong or otherwise.
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
25 MR. KUNKEL: It's very -- Makes you feel very
- - . . - - - . ~ . - . . - . - - - -. - - . -
l i
l 33 1 impotent as far as your ability to do your job. And he i 2 was very aware of that situation that he put me under.
3 And from that point on it was when I go to meetings, don't say nothing.
4 Don't respond to anything.
I 5 Tell them you'll get back with them later after you talk 4
6 to your supervisor.
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Why do you think he felt that 8 way, that he had -- that everything had to go through him?
I 9 MR. KUNKEL: He was afraid that if I were to 4 10 give some good interpretation or advice or recommendations 11 for how to solve a problem, that it wouldn't have come
- 12 from him. That's basically what it was.
] 13 He wasn't really afraid that-I might say 4
14 something that was not in accordance with the Nuclear Weld d
i 15 Control Manual or out of weld procedures specification or 16 our program and documentation. He knew very well I was 17 very well versed in it and I ha,ve a very good track record l 18 of not making any errors or mistakes. '
, 1 19 It wasn't that at all and he didn't say that at l 4
I 20 all. He just felt like if I was to say anything that he i
21 didn't agree with or it wasn't along the same l i
i 22 ' recommendations or approach that he might want to have or '
i 23 if it was something that he couldn't take the glory for, l
24 that he was jealous. That's basically what it was !
i 25 culminating to.
l I
-- .- . . = . - - . . - - . .- .~ - . _ . -----
34 l
1 MRS. SELEWSKI: So you feel like if anybody was j i
2 intimidated or harassed, it was you by Mr. Hallenbeck 3 instead of his being -- Mr. Hallenbeck being intimidated 4 or harassed by anyone else?
l 5 MR. KUNKEL: Exactly. I can't imagine anybody '
6 harassing him.
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: So do you feel like if things 8 had continued the way they were with Mr. Hallenbeck, that 9 you would have resigned from your position?
10 MR. KUNKEL: Yes, uh-huh. I had told Mr.
11 DeSoiza if I had known what I was getting into when I l 12 signed on as part of the welding department and knew that 13 I was going to have to work with Norm'being the way he's 14 become, I said I would have never joined it.
15 I was working in a department where I was very i 16 happy and satisfied doing my job. And I found myself in a '
17 situation now with the stress and strain and having to I i
18 deal with someone daily. It was becoming beyond my 1 19 control. I couldn't handle it much longer.
'20 MRS. SELEWSKI: How are. things now that he's no !
21 longer at the plant?
22 Well, who's your supervisor now?
23 MR. KUNKEL: Well, Dale Jacobs is acting 24 supervisor, but we're responding directly to Ernie Poarch.
25 And Dale and I have always worked real well together. And
l i
l i 35 l 1
1 we've been able'to put the department.back on track as far 1 l '
2 as getting along real well with all the other departments ;
i 3 and working well with others and doing our job functions i- 4 very well and ambitiously.
9 5 And learning more and'using our skills and
< 6 talents.to solve problems and make it more a solid 7 ' situation for'the welding department, and able to respond l l 8 to anything that comes along. And we've done very well in i 9 our outages and training welders and' qualifying weld j 10' procedures and working with new people. .
, 11 And our new weld control program is computerized :
4 12 now. We've worked really hard at it and it's coming along '
- i j 13 real well. And we're very proud of what we've done. And i 14 we've done real well because we feel we're working i
. 15 together now and we can talk to'each other and we can talk i 16 to others and we can get ideas and we can be more useful 17 on -- and more ambitious and aggressive to solve problems 2 18 when they come along, and to get more input from other -
19 people, too, as far as -- It's much more substantial as 20 far as being a work ability and an effort-wise, everyone 21 working together. l 22 MRS. SELEWSKI: So you have felt some relief 1
23 then --
24 MR.'KUNKEL: Oh, a lot. Yeah, i
25 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- since Mr. Hallenbeck's
. 1 i
36 1~ resigned?
2 MR. KUNKEL: It's a pleasure to come to work 3 now.
1 4 MRS. SELEWSKI:' Is there anything else that 5 you're aware of regarding any problems Mr. Hallenbeck may 6 have had with Mr. Poarch and Mr. Fagley in the way he was 7 treated by them?
8 MR. KUNKEL: None at all. Their relationship or 9 their problems was not really made to light to others.
10 And I believe that was their choice.
- 11 Norm wouldn't come -- I don't remembe_ Norm 12 coming to Dale or I and saying, Ernie's doing this or .
13 Ernie's treating me this way. Because he knew that we L
14 wouldn't -- we couldn't understand where he was coming 15 from.
16 We knew that they weren't like that. They 17 wouldn't do that to him, you know.
18 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
19 MR. KUNKEL: If Ernie or Herman had come to us 20 and said, you know, Norm is responding this way and he 21 says this and -- but they didn't do that either.
22 So it was -- We weren't aware.of it.
I 23 MRS. SELEWSKI: Management.
24 MR. KUNKEL: It seems to be conjecture or ,
- 25 something. I don't know. I'm surprised when they l
i 37 l 1 mentioned something about a harassment charge. It sounds !
2 cdd. It should be the other way around.
l 3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. Is there anything you 4 want to add or say regarding -- to conclude the interview 1
5 today?
6 MR. KUNKEL: The whole situation over the last 7 three years, two and a half years that I've known Norm has a been really kind of sad. Kind of feel sorry for the guy.
9 I don't know what his problem was or what it is, or what 10 he has to do'about it. But it seems to be a personal 11 problem, that he is very paranoid and skeptical of others 12 and just very hard to get along with. Even with people 13 that try to get along with him.
14 And that's what stymied me so much. It seemed 15 like the harder I would try to please the man and to '
16 communicate with him and do what he wanted, the worse he 17 made me feel or tried to make me feel, and in ways that 18 were just outright lies or dreaming up stuff on the way he 19 interpreted things, and trying to blame you for things 20 that couldn't be blamed on anybody.
21 You know, just little things he tried to blow out 22 of shape. And it just was kind of sad. I always felt 23 sorry for him. And I didn't quite know what to do or say. !
24 And it got to the point where there wasn't anything you j l
H25 could do or say, the point you just wanted to get out of
]
- . . - . - - --_ .. . . _ . = _ _ - ...- ,. .. . - . . _ . . _ . ~ . . . . -
P 38 l
1 that situation and walk away from it.
2 And say, this is one thing you don't know what to
- 3 do or you can't figure it out. You need to just walk away 4 from it.
5 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did you.ever document your '
6 concerns relating to intimidation and harassment or keep ,
7 any kind of notebook?
8 MR. KUNKEL: I had thought about it at one time 9 when I had talked to Mr. DeSoiza. But he didn't seem to 10 think that that was necessary.
- 11 And I said, well, I don't know, but I cduld give 12 you exact dates or exact conversations, anything like 13 that. I said, some of these things I'd just rather 14 : forget. I'd rather put it out of my mind.
15 It's too stressful and just makes you feel bad.
16 Why would you want to write it down and dwell on it.
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh.
l 18 MR. KUNKEL: So I wasn't aware that there was 19 anything necessary about that.
20 MRS. SELEWSKI: Anything else you want to add or 21'- summarize regarding Hallenbeck's allegations?
l 22 MR. KUNKEL: No, not really.
l 23 MRS. SELEWSKI': Okay. I'll go ahead and start 24 wrapping up the interview, i
25 I just want ask, did you give your statement
. -. . . . . .. --. . . . - . - ~ . - - . . - - . . , _ . , - . . . . . . -.
l 39 1 today voluntarily? 1 2 MR. KUNKEL: Yes.
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. We appreciate your time :
4 today.
5 And we'll go ahead and conclude the interview.
6 (Whereupon, these proceedings were concluded at l 7 2:35 p.m.)
, 8 -----
9 j 10 11 '
l 12 j 13 14
.15 16
-17 .
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
4C i i
l 1 CERTIFICATE '
2 This is to certify t}1aY%he attached proceedings i 3 before the United States NucfedP Regulatory Commission in 4 the matter of: 8 "b 1
5 Name of Proceeding: W erview of Jerry Kunkel 6
Docket Number (s): ht75ssigned) 7 Place of Proceeding: St. Lucie Nuclear Plant, 8 su tgrisen Beach, Florida l
9 7 had t; '
10 were held as herein appeard,d a M hat this is the original I 11 transcript thereof for the T[fe*Ttff the United States 4
12 Nuclear Regulatory Commissbon % ken by me and, thereafter 13 reduced to typewriting by m"e"dY tnder the direction of tne 14 court reporting company, an"$ 5t[ahthe transcript is a true 15 and accurate record of theC fodhing proceedings.
16 m res ,
17 2* 5' 18 A ?"E- Ctt 1 19 l
Peggy S. May l~
20 Offi2ib' Reporter 21 Neal A[ dross and Co., Inc. ,
22 *'U*
23 mi ght:
24 takt.
25 N O
I