ML20134N033
| ML20134N033 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Saint Lucie  |
| Issue date: | 01/18/1995 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20134M972 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-96-485 NUDOCS 9702210172 | |
| Download: ML20134N033 (50) | |
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UNITED STATES.OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR' REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+++++
3 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 4
INTERVIEW 5
---~~~~~~----X 6
7 IN THE MATTER OF:
- Docket No.
8 INTERVIEW OF
- (not assigned) 9 DALE JACOBS 10
--X 11 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ----------
Wednesday, January 18, 1995 12 13 Training Building 14 St. Lucie Nuclear Plant 15 7585 South Highway A1A 16 Jensen Beach, Florida 34957 17 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted a <
20 2:55 p.m.
21 BEFOP2:
Investigator 22 VANESSA SELEWSKI 23 24 EXHlBIT_.k.-.
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BINDER 96-485 PDR
1 J
2 l 1 APPEARANCES:
2 3 On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 4
5 VANESSA SELEWSKI, Investigator !
! 6 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7 Office of Investigations 8 101 Marietta Street
}
j 9 Atlanta, Georgia 30323 10 4
11 12 .
l 13 14 15 :
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i
I 2
l 1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 2:55 p.m.
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: For the record, it is Janue y 4 18th, 1995. This is the transcribed interview of Dale j
5 Jacobs and it is being conducted at St. Lucie Power Plant.
6 And present at this interview is Mr. Jacobs and Vanessa 7 Selewski, Investigator'with the NRC Office of 8 Investigations.
9 The allegation concerns Norman Hallenbeck. He 10 has claimed that he has been intimidated and harassed and J
11 discriminated against by Ernie Poarch and Herman Fagley i 12 because he's voiced some concerns and stopped work on 4
4 13 certain welding procedures or work. He feels like he's i
j 14 been harassed by Management, or by his Management over a 15- period of time.
16 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh.
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: And he felt he's been demoted l
18 and his performance appraisals have decreased because he 19 has spoken up about certain welding requirements or code.
20 I'll.go ahead and ask that you raise your right 21 hand.
- 22 Whereupon, 23 DALE JACOBS, 24 being duly sworn by the Investigator, was examined and 25 testified as follows:
4 t
- 4 q 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 MRS. SELEASKI
- What is your full name, address 3 and telephone number?
4 MR. JACOBS: Henry Dale Jacobs.
Addressisllf 5
M%
7 MRS, SELEWSKI: And what is your position now?
[ 8 MR. JACOBS: I'm -- It's still the same, I'm a 9 welding engineer for Florida Power & I.ight.
- 10 MRS. SELEWSKI
- Okay. Are you in a temporary 11 supervisory position?
h 12 MR. JACOBS: What I'm been told, that I would 13 fulfill the welding responsibilities until further notice, 14 until, the way I understand it is Norm's old position has j 15 been posted and until it's filled. So basically I'm i
16 currently acting as a lead, but really nothing's changed.
17- I'm still doing the same thing I was previously.
i 18 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. And getting more pay for 19 your lead --
, 20 . , MR. JACOBS: No, I'm not.
! 21 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- welding position?
22 MR. JACOBS: No.
- 23 MRS. SELEWSKI
- So you're really just acting in 24 Norm Hallenbeck's position ,-
25 MR. JACOBS: Right.
i -
(, lQ '
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_. . - - , - - . - - . - . ~ - . . - . . . - - - - - . . ..
1 .
. 5 ,
1 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- for now?
! l f
2 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh (Nods affirmatively.)
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Do you know about what time
)
4 frame that his. position will be filled? <
5 MR. JACOBS: No. The way I was explained to me 6 after Norm resigned last summer and I was asked if --
7 about doing this, I was told that they were going to put 8 his position in Human Resources till after the. outage and 9 then they would assess what they were going to do with it.
10 That they personally felt that Jerry and myself could 11 handle the responsibilities, they really didn't need the 12 t'., person, but they were going to just observe and see 13 how the workload went.
14 Recently in the Internal Placement System his 15 position has been posted. And it's all speculation but l
16 they're talking about a reorganization on site, which '
17 would possibly put whoever fills that position over the 18 whole site, maintenance and construction, where before it 19 was.just over the construction site. And that's where it 20 stands at this point. As far as any detctla; none of 21 that's been addressed beyond that to me.
22 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. Have you been told that 23 there's a good chance you would get into that position?
24 MR. JACOBS: I voiced to Herman last summer I 25 didn't feel I was the person for that job.
. . .. ~ . . - - . .. . _ . - ~ . . . _ _ _ . . - . - . -
4 6
] 1 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
2 MR. JACOBS: I wouldn't be interested in it
- j. 3 coming from this environment that has been created that I'
! 4 have --'I think someone from outside and someone new was '
a 5 better suit FP&L as a whole than to field from within.
6 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
- 7 MR. JACOBS
- And I also think there's some 8 additional requirements being put on the-position that 9 requires a four-year degree, but I'm not certain of that.
1 10 And I -- there, again, I wouldn't be able to meet those 1
11 requirements anyway, i
i 12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. What about other
, 13 qualifications regarding experience in this and that for 14 that position? He thought you'd meet those or --
i
$ 15 MR. JACOBS: Personally I'm qualified for the 16 job. Like I say I just personally don't-feel that it 17 would be good and I really wouldn't care for it that much 18 anyway. I like what I'm doing and the position I'm in.
- 19. Sometimes the more elevated a position gets the more 20 politics comes into play and I'm really not fond of that.
21 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. And Hallenbeck was your 22 supervisor before he resigned?
23 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh. (Nods affirmatively.)
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: And how long was that, was he 25 your supervisor?
I 7
l' MR. JACOBS: On c permanent basis, from -- I was 2 working for UENC Catalytic at the time, April of '91 up-3 until he left. I believe it was. April 8th to be exact.
4 Previous to.that had been off and on an outage on' occasion 5 where I would come out. He was'at that time what we ;
i 6 called a lead welding person. It was when he switched l 7 over-to FP&L, at,what time I don't know, that he'became's 8 welding supervisor per se.
9 MRS. SELEWSKI: When you say UENC, that's United 10 Engineering and Construction?
11 MR. JACOBS: Right.
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. So, what kind of working 13 relationship have you had with Mr. Hallenbeck from the 14 very beginning up till the end when he resigned?
15 MR. JACOBS: We had a in the beginning a real 16 good working relationship. I enjoyed Norm a lot. He was 17 a good person to really look out for his people. And when 18 his supervisor -- I'd say in the neighborhood of a couple 19 of years ago he began to deteriorate. And in my personal
- 20 opinion that was all self induced.
21 We had people retire and the new people come in, 22 Ernie and Herman. And even before Ernie, in defense to 23 him,- and I didn't know him prior either, I had no history 24 with this man, Norm -- Ernie came on site as a ,
25 construction supervisor for a period of time. He was up
8 1 f rom Turkey Poin';. Norm was told by somebody, so he 2 c.1 aimed, a lot of negative things about Ernie. And he 3 basically demonstrated just a very negative interface 4 towards the man even before he became a supervisor up here 5 permanent.
6 And my opinion with Norm, Norm is a very insecure 7 individual. Having known him the way I did I know that 8 even when we had a good relationship it was very important l 9 that you be careful how you disagreed with him. Norm's 10 very intelligent, extremely intelligent, but he's also 11 very insecure. And he gets the feeling that people are )
i 12 against him all the time. So you have to be careful of 13 how you disagree with him.
14 And I watched him from the time where he was a l
15 new FP&L employee. I was a contractor. He started out i 16 really liking people, but es in-any job when you start 17 interfacing and you disagree, which other departments 18 always will be, Norm began to dislike those people. They 19 were against him. And I personally feel that, and 20 especially after Ernie became his supervisor, that a lot 21 of -- he became so obsessed with beating him that he 22 imagined things. And Norm took me over to the Test Shop, 23 that was his retreat, and talked a lot and expressed how 24 Ernie was -- didn't like him. Well, Norm created that 25 situation. Which Ernie I don't believe personally ever
9 1 disliked him. But Norm in his mind didn't believe that 2 Ernie didn't. But yet Norm's the one that' created the 3 working environment.
4 It's like any job, whether you go to a new job or 5 you get a new boss you have to make adjustments to who you 6 work for. They make some, you make some. But I never 7 personally seen Ernie do anything against our program.
8 I've seen him and Ernie both request his presence at 9 meetings that were welding-related, for his input.
10 And I do not believe and we -- that our program 11 has been in any way jeopardized, because we have a good 12 program. We have a proven program. Our Q.A., Q.C.
13 functions properly. If you investigate into our system 14 you'll find that non conforming or things that are in 15 question are always addressed and there's always a 16 resolution to it. It's a big program. But had we done 17 anything to jeopardize that it would have been officially 18 known to start with. The program has been in place for 19 many years and hasn't been jeopardized at all. We've had 20 mistakes we've made that's always been addressed with the 21 appropriate document and non conforming conditions and 22 corrected as it should be.
23 MRS. SELEWSKI: When you talked aaout 24 deteriorating, you were talking about the relationship 25 between you and -- the working relationship with you and
10 1 Mr. Hallenbeck. When did you start seeing a deterioration 2 with how he was dealing with his employees or his 3 interpersonal skills or --
4 MR. JACOBS: Well, it was rather sudden, because 5 Norm talked to me about it all the time. We were friends.
6 We were socially involved with each other. And naturally i 1
7 he felt confident enough to where that when we were 8 together that he discussed things with me. And in the 1 1
9 beginning his dislike, like I told you, for Ernie was from 10 the get go. And -- but Herman, he really liked Herman. l 11 Herman's a nice person. He's a people's person. But when 12 he tried to get Herman to let him report directly to him ;
13 to change the organizational chart Herman told him no.
14 And at that point Herman became a -- or he began with a 15 low opinion of Herman, that he was dumb, you know, and a 16 lot of remarks that shouldn't have been said. And if they 17 had any confrontations between themselves over that, him 18 and Herman, I don't know about it.
19 I know -- like I know the situation that Ernie 20 asked Norm one time that, he says, what have you got your 21 men doing? In a casual, Norm's response, why are you 22 always -- I forget what it was -- trying to intimidate me, 23 or something of that nature, I can't remember what it was.
24 But just as a negative reaction.
25 One other situation. I came in from work one
11 1 morning, I was with Catalytic at the time. I signed in 2 and I was walking dowh the passageway and I said good 3 morning to Erni' and he hollered at me, he said, hey, aive 4 this~to Norm when you go in. So I took it to him. I 5 don't remember the document, but it was a memo or 6 interoffice correspondence. For thirty minutes I sat and 7 listened to Norm go on about how Ernie did not recognize 8 him as a supervisor, that he was getting to where that he 9 was going to other people, Jerry or myself, and we were 10 all equal, et cetera. After a half hour of that, which 11 went into the work time, I spoke up and told him, look, if 12 you have a problem let's get Ernie'in here. Norm did'not 13 want us interfacing with anyone outside of his -- he's 14 very protective of that. And it was good to a point, but 15 it also alienated us as a group, those three of us.
16 And it just -- by him - getting back to your 17 question, him talking to me consistently, you could say I 18 noticed it within, say, six months or so it was notable 19 because of the conversation _that continually went on.
20 MRS. SELEWSKI: Six months of your being under 21 his supervision?
22 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh. Six months under -- after 23 Ernie became supervision, say, in the neighborhood of six 24 months after Ernie was -- became our supervisor that these 25 feelings that Norm had towards him that it just began to
1 12 1 get a hold of him.. It just -- that's all he talked about.
2 His -- the names he called our counterparts and the 3 negative name=. It would just -- it became -- it got to 4 where it was continuous. It got to where that in the 5 mornings -- I usually come in a half hour or so before l 6 work, that I would sit in the parking lot till time to 7 come in just to where that I only listened to it for the 8 time that I stayed for.
9 And it was really sad because an individual had a i
10 lot to offer and we had a good department. He stood to be l 11 the person to become over the whole site as a welding 12 person. But he's very headstrong. But -- i l
13 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did you feel free towards safety. -
14 or nuclear concerns when you were under Hallenbeck's 15 supervision, to whoever you wanted to voice those concerns 16 to?
17 MR. JACOBS: Well, if I'd have had a problem 18 with a safety or a procedure problem, something of that 19 nature, Hallenbeck wouldn't have stood in my way for that.
20 I didn't mind -- well, I minded, but it was the 21 circumstances was then as he began to alienate us from 22 other groups if he didn't want us interfacing with them 23 unless we went through him, that was fine. We happened to 24 be a department that interfaces with all groups that have 25 any welding activities and it's like we freelance out more
13 1 in the field. It got to the point that any even a minor 2 decision made in the field he didn't like it. He wanted 3 it to come through him. He had to be -- it's like if he 4 was in a meeting and something came up he wasn't aware of 5 it he told us we made him look bed, you know, which is 6 untrue. There was just sometimes there was a lot of time 7 lost between the field and the office and I just really 8 don't feel that was the case, you know.
9 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did he tell you -- instruct you 10 not to talk during meetings or give your opinion --
11 MR. JACOBS: Yes.
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- during staff meetings, or 13 what kind of meetings were they?
14 MR. JACOBS: On any -- when it was related to a 15 welding thing he did not want us making any decisions in 16 the meeting. The -- He wanted us to bring back from the 17 meeting what he took. Or if he was at the meeting we were 18 .there just more as a figure, not for input. Norm 19 maneuvered things a lot, you know, to make it work for 20 him. And sometimes an honest answer or an opinion could l 21 counter that type of behavior. And so -- I can give you 1
22 an example. j t
23 I believe it was two outages ago when we were in 24 a situation that we got split up on shifts. Jerry and 25 myself and Norm and we were joined by counterparts from
14 7 1 'other parts of the company. And Jerry and Norm.were "
- t 2 together. And Jerry became just a thorn in Norm's side.
3 Unjustly, but he did. And so Norm got swung over to night 4 shift and Jerry was on days with a guy that Norm didn't Ci U-5 care for and he told Jerry, he said, you go to those _}3 6 meetings, but you sit there and don't you say a word. d 7 And that was one of the things at the beginning ~j 8 of him and I beginning to have words is the fact that i
]
9 Jerry is a very meek person and a nice person. He wants ,hl 2 '
10 to do right. And he -- new in the job over the last gh 4
11 couple of years and wants to do well. And that was one of
}
J 12 the items I confronted Norm on. I asked him, and I was ,$
s 13 pretty worked up at the time, I asked him how do you y{
14 expect an employee to function when you treat him this '
15 way? And he comes back out to me that he's looking out j ii 16 for us. My response to him, we have to learn and we have dl 3
17 to -- and we make mistakes. We have to represent it, a
$i 18 that's what we're hired to do. We're not all going to [j 4
19 speak the same, but our intention is to get to the same
-i 20 point.
21 But Norm chose Jerry, submitted him. We ,j, 1
22 interviewed him together. Norm was very high on Jerry. I 23 don't know what ever happened to turn Norm against Jerry.
24 But I know and I never -- I didn't listen to 25 conversations, but I know that Norm used to take him to !
l i 1 15 1 the Test Shop and just climb all over him. And Jerry was
. 2 just -- Jerry has called me and talked to me before j
3 wanting to know what's going on, and a grown man basically
~
4 in tears. And it went on for so long it really became 5 [ dis'turbingtoJerry.
9, 7 llllEb And that used to disgust me, and then Norm would i
8 get me over there and gloat about what he'd done.
I 4
l 9 MRS. SELEWSKI: About what he'd done to Jerry
, 10 or --
) 11 MR. JACOBS: About what he'd done to Jer:ty. How i l
, 12 much he conveyed to me that was actually said in the l I 13 meeting, I couldn't confirm that. But I know that Jerry ;
f '
14 was. M very upset for a long time. And it -- it I
! 15 used to bother me a lot. But I didn't say anything. And [,
i 16 until I finally -- in the end Norm and I did have -- I'm j
\
17 sure he's mentioned it, that he and I did have a i
18 confrontation.
19 MRS. SELEWSKI: Yeah, and I want to get into !
. 20 that in a little bit. Did you feel like Norm intimidated 21 and harassed Jerry? I 22 MR. JACOBS: Very much so. A matter of fact, I 23 can personally say that based on -- it's my opinion what I 24 see and what I know that this role should be reversed and 25 be a legitimate one. But Jerry's not the type person that Ls
'] f ff"]Mi ? >
j 16 1 would ever do that. He'd - -he'd handle it on'his own one
~
2 way or'the other, I think.
3 .MRS. SELEWSKI: How did you feel that Norm was 4 intimidating and. harassing Jerry other than what you've 5 mentioned so far, the way he talked to him and --
6 HMR. JACOBS: Well, Jerry is equal to me when he 7 was hired. Jerry has a lot of talents that I don't have.
8 I -- the way I perceive Jerry, you know, Jerry's a good 9 writer. He speaks well. He's -- he may be short in areas 10- that I may be long in, but there is a balance there, you 11 know.
12 And Norm became so disgusted with Jerry over
-13 nothing that we -- here we are, we're FP&L people.
14 Usually Norm and I, we'll cover -- we'll work'three shifts 15 or whatever,-but we generally make the FP&L person the 16 lead on whatever shift they're on because-we hir'e 17 temporary people. And he -- his first outage here he put 18 Jerry on second shift as the lead before he really even 19 had a chance to get his feet wet. Then he turns around 20 and people had come to Norm, and I was witness to this, 21 telling Norm what a good job Jerry done. One particular 22 guy was a Q.C. guy. Norm comes to me, states that Jerry 23 must be letting Q.C. dictate wha't to do, they like him too 24 -much. So the next outage he brings Jerry on days, I go on 25- second shift, and makes him do nothing but clerical work,
17 1 which is part of our job, but we do both.
2 But he solely assigned him to the' desk that he 3
3 did nothing but clerical, you know. And from what I 4 understand, and I'm not sure of this, but according to 5 Norm that he went and tried to -- went to the guy that
- 6 hired us when we switched over and tried to get Jerry run 7 off. And according to Norm he was told that they all 8 worked too hard to get these guys on, you wanted them, f
9 bring them along.
10 And so, things like that I think he harassed --
11 in my opinion is harassment, to falsely work a person or 12 put them under a oretense that were doing bad when in 13 essence they weren't. To take complimenta that come from 14 other departments on the individual and feel that the 15 individual is accommodating them to their likes rather
, 16 than enforcing what we're required to do, which was false. j 17 He even went to one of the temporary contractors and told l 18 him that, hey, Jerry's the lead on nights, but I expect l
19 you to oversee it. That's wrong. l l
, 20 And Jerry told me that in one of the episodes at 1
21 the Test Shop that, he says, I was just in disbelief. He 22 says, I could not believe the things that he was saying to 23 me. And finally I says, Norm, tell me what you want and 24 I'll do it. Norm threw up his hands and said, I don't 25 want to talk about it any more, and walked out. And
18 1 that's no way for a supervisor to conduct himself. Even 2 if I liked him at the time, that's wrong. And that's how 3 I've based my feelings about my perception, that if anyone 4 had a prob -- concern about harassment it would be Jerry 5 by Norm. j 6 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. j 7 Were you a witness to or did you ever hear about l 8 Ernie or Herman intimidating and harassing Norm?
9 MR. JACOBS: No. I 10 MRS. SELEWSKI: There were a few specific time 11 frames that Mr. Hallenbeck mentioned to me that I want to 12 ask you about that you may or may not have been involved 13 in. Welding work, 1993 outage involving a Bergen-14 Patterson Support. Well, I guess it was a bad weld _r 15 the component cooling water system and Hallenbeck wanted 16 to stop work on that so that it could be corrected. I 17 guess the weld just needed to be taken apart and redone.
18 Were you -- do you remember that time frame?
19 MR. JACOBS: I remember vaguely something about 20 this, but from what I remember is we cut the weld out.
21 There was a discrepancy report or something written, a 22 WRR, if it's the one I'm thinking about. And it was 23 corrected. There was a concern over something -- I don't 24 know if this is the same one we're talking about, but 25 there was a hanger that a pipe fit inside a pipe. It was
1 19 1 a manufactured support, and something about the weld size l l
2 and the pipe size would have created a gap possibly at the 1
3 toe of the weld. If that one's the one a paper was !
l 4 written on that to correct it.
l 5 MRS. SELEWSKI: WRR, what does that stand for?
6 MR. JACOBS: Weld Repair Report.
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
8 MR. JACOBS: It's possible that was the time. I 9 wouldn't say for sure. l l
10 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
11 MR. JACOBS: But I do remember a problem with a 12 support along those lines and it was corrected.
13 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
14 What Hallenbeck is claiming is that when he 15 wanted to stop the welding or wanted to redo this, take it 16 apart and put it back together the correct way, that Mr.
17 Poarch became really upset with Hallenbeck and tried to 18 convince everyone that the weld could be just accepted the 19 way it was, it didn't need to be redone or rewelded. Were 20 you aware of that?
21 MR. JACOBS: No. I'd -- like I say, if there's 22 usually a non -- there's a lot of people that hate it when 23 mistakes are made or we have a non or just a plain screw-24 up - pardon my language -- the -- it's a lot of people 25 don't like it. Even we don't like it. But that doesn't
20 1 mean it doesn't get addressed. And to my knowledge I 2 heard not.hing about -- about that. It was typical one of j 3 those items that we find a problem we try to correct it.
4 MRS. SELEWSKI: Uh-huh. I I
5 Norm was claiming that after that incident Mr. !
I 6 Poarch began some harassment. He doesn't specify what it 7 was, but because Hallenbeck spoke up and wanted to stop, 8 you know, wanted to do the weld over he was harassed by i
9 Mr. Poarch. Had you ever heard anything about that?
10 MR. JACOBS: Huh-uh. (Shakes head negatively.)
11 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
12 COURT REPORTER: Was that a no? l 13 MR. JACOBS: Huh?
14 COURT REPORTER: Could I have a no instead of a l
15 nod. j 16 MR. JACOBS: Oh, no, ma'am. There was, to 17 answer your question, none to my knowledge. If -- as much 18 as he talked to me about things like that, and a lot of it 19 that he talked about, to me, in my opinion, was 20 fabricated. That I think if there would have really bee,n 21 an issue I would have heard about it.
22 MRS. SELEWSKI: And there were incidents related 23 to the Spring 1994 Unit One outage and a DEH system where 24 there was welding work on that instrument line on the 25 turbine deck. Procedure needed to be amended before
21 1 continuing work, so Hallenbeck wanted -- he had the work 2 stopped so the procedure could be amended. ' Are you 3 familiar with that incident?
4 MR. JACOBS: Yeah, but that's just a common 5 thing. That's -- that's not an unusual -- what happened 6 there was -- the little bit of detail I remember was the 3
7 welders notified that they couldn't run at the amperage 8 the weld procedure specified for that thickness of tubing.
9 So we just had them hold up and we got an amendment, or 10 revision amendment, whatever, to allow to drop an amperage 11 is -- that's not an uncommon practice.
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Hallenbeck claims that he told 13 Poarch that, you know, the welding needed to be stopped so l
14 the procedure could be amended and Poarch said, well, you 1 15 know, does anybody else know about this? Who else knows 16 about this? Let's keep welding. Did you ever hear about 17 that happening?
18 MR. JACOBS: No.
19 MRS. SELEWSKI: And of course Hallenbeck said 20 that couldn't be done, they had to stop the work. And 21 Hallenbeck says that Poarch continued harassment of him )
l 22 because he spoke up and wanted to stop the work. l 23 MR. JACOBS: No, I don't -- I don't know that j 24 that happened. A matter of fact, that was just a real ;
I 25 common thing. That was a no big deal problem that we -- l l
22 1 that's not an uncommon situation to -- for the guys out in 2 the field to run into a problem, they notify us and we 3 make the adjustment. Sometimes there'll be something set 4 aside maybe for days, you know, aside from that particular 5 scenario.
6 MRS. SELEWSKI: Hallenbeck said that he -- there 7 was one other way that Poarch harassed him was, you know, 8 telling him he hadn't been attending meetings and giving 9 his employees directions instead of Hallenbeck giving them 10 directions. Basically going over his head and talking to 11 you guys and giving you direction.
12 Any response on -- have you noticed anything like 13 that happening?
14 MR. JACOBS: Well, that goes back to what I was 15 telling you about the -- me bringing him the document that 16 morning in to the office to drop off even before work 17 started and the man merely asked me to just give that when 18 I seen him. He had even stated when he said, he said I 19 was back there earlier and Norm wasn't there, would you l 20 give this to him?
I 21 Norm was asked, and I was witness to many times, j 22 did Norm go to the two o' clock meeting, which is every l
23 day. And most of the time Jerry and I would cover it. )
24 But it was -- unless something was really going on all the 25 other superviso7:s participated in the meeting. It's a l
l
\
i 23 8
1 planning meeting for the next day. And Ernie was l, 2 constantly trying to get him to go to the meetings, but he ;
3 was never out of line in asking him to go to the meetings 4 that I was ever witness to. Norm's excuse, oh, I'm too
.i 5 busy. I- don't go along'with that. I disagree with that. j 6 MRS. SELEWSKI: And he felt, Mr. Hallenbeck felt J l
7 that he didn't fit into the new regime because'he did not 8 want to bend rules to cut costs. And I'm assuming when he 9 talks about new regime he's talking about the new 10 management, Poarch and Fagley and replacement of Sipos and 11 Parker? Parks was it?
12 MR. JACOBS: Parks. Everybody that I know of is 13 -- when they came in and begin to do the replacements come 14 and extended their hands to us. And the reason Norm 15 didn't fit into the new regime is because he wouldn't fit-16 into the new regime. He refused it. i 17 Herman and Ernie both -- I know Ernie has -- had j 1 18 come, and I sat right across from Norm, Ernie many times 19 had come by and sat down and tried to just have a casual i
20- conversation and Norm disliked him so bad that he would l l
21 either just say yes or no, would not converse. Would not 22 be friendly or-anything to try to have a relationship with 23 that, you know.
24 And I even talked.to Norm I said -- I told Norm, 25 I said, look, I said, if you left and you had a
24 1 replacement come in I would have to adjust, I said, and 2 you need'to learn to do the same thing. Not everybody is l l
3 the same. They're going to have different ways, different 4 methods of supervising people. And his statement would be 5 was I'm not going to -- I forget the word he used -- is 6 sacrifice the weld control program just to suit him. I 1 7 never witnessed Ernie ever trying to get him to do that.
8 And up until Norm left I really made sure that I 9 did no interface with Ernie. I made sure just in order to 10 try to keep our relationship, because I had to work there.
11 It was bad enough already. So up until Norm left, as far l I
12 as one on one with Ernie my dealings with Ernie was I 13 basically when he was dealing with Norm or what have you.
14 And since then I personally don't think you could 15 ask for someone better to support you than Ernie has with 16 Jerry and I. I know Norm got to where that he -- he'd go 17 around to Herman. He was trying to get Herman to let him i
18 report directly. And he would try to wait till Ernie for I
19 sure wasn't around so he could go to Herman, you know.
20 So I -- the reason he didn't fit into the regime 21 was because he didn't want to fit in. Everybody extended 22 their hand to him.
23 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
24 MR. JACOBS: And if someone new came in that 25 started off with Ernie, working with, Norm disliked that
25 1 individual from the -- from day one, where he hea no uso l
1 2 for him. That's -- he just was obsessed with it. )
l 3 MRS. SELEWSKI: One of the other concerns that 4 Hallenbeck expressed was part of Poarch's harassment too 5 was he felt that'Poarch was poisoning the thinking of you 6 and Jerry and turning you guys against him. Completely 7 against him.
8 MR. JACOBS: And that was impossible because 9 Jerry and I both, when Jerry would talk to me about how to i
10 handle things and what we'd do was we just had to make i
11 sure that we made it a point that we did not take anything l 12 outside unless it went through Norm. And that we isolate 13 ourselves with him in order -- because he's so insecure 14 that if he seen one of us down the hall talking to one of 15 Ernie's supervisors, well, he went into negative thoughts 16 what we was up to and all that. And so it took a bit 17 effort to try to keep him reassured that we would support 18 him and all of that. And that was just a figment of his 19 imagination.
. 20 MRS. SELEWSKI: He mentions the instance that 21 occurred between you and him, he's got the exact date, 22 April 12th, 1994, which you were very -- he says you were 23 acting very irritable at him and wanted to talk to him 24 privately in the welding test facility. Is that the 25 confrontation you mentioned earlier?
26
- 1. MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh. (Nods affirmatively.)
MRS. SELEWSKI:
2 He feels that that confrontation 3 was all a part of you turning against him because Mr.
4 Poarch basically manipulated that. What did the incident 5 involve? He's got his side of it of what happened. I 6 just want to hear what happened.
7 MR. JACOBS: Well, how it started was I just 8 come off of nights and we had just had one of the best '
9 outages on the night shift portion that I'd ever went over 10 and been on. And we had reached the point at that point 11 that I offered no conversation to Norm other than 12 business. Our social life had, for about seven or eight 13 months had -- but my wife had got to the point she refused 14 to even go. So -- or participate. We rode bikes together ,
15 and et cetera.
16 So he said he wanted to see me over the Test 17 Shop. So we went over and he would sit down and I knew he 18 was getting ready to start one of these little deals and I 19 was irritated with the environment anyway and we'd had a 20 pre -- let me back up. There's a previous incident. That 21 when we were in the outage and during the time frame that 22 he had swung over to nights or they had put him on nights.
23 We have a game on a computer and he couldn't get it to
]
24 work on his, so he asked me how I got mine to do. So I 25 told him I went through all of my computer and deleted all l i
l
27 1- the unnecessary files that were personal and stuff that
, 2 were sitting dormant and just cleaned it up_and got enough 3 space to operate the game, because it was on a disk. tmd 4 so he said, okay, that's what I want to do.
5 Well, in the meantime after that, I was back on 1
6 days then, Jerry come to me and he went to retrieve a 7 document and he come to me and he says, hey, all these --
8 all our files are gone. I can't find any of them. And a 9 lot of these documents we spent months developing them
]
10 because they're welder qualification records. And then we 11 built one, built a set for each procedure. A lot of work.
12 And so I said, no, they're in there, so we went and 13 looked. Man, they were gone. So, I hollered at Norm. I
, 14 said, Norm, all of our documents are missing. Everything.
15 And he come out there he says, oh, they're in there.
t 16 They're in there, don't worry about it, he said, you'll 17 find them, keep looking.
i 18 So I went and got the computer guy and he come 19 over. And I explained, I said, there was hundreds of 20 them. Man, he looked and he looked and we tried different 21 paths to access and et cetera. And finally he said -- and 22 Norm was just pacing the floor right there, and he could 23 -- it was actually -- he was just as interested or he 6
24 appeared to be as we were, because all I could imagine was 25 starting back over. It took us several months, like I say
U 28 1 to build those. And -- because we were -- we even 2 designed the form with all essential variables and stuff 3 out of the Code book.
4 And finally he said, I'm going out and smoke.
! 5 And Jimmy, the computer guy, said, well, Dale, I don't 6 know, he says, they're just not there. And I said, can 7 you see if they were deleted? He said, yeah, I can tell 8 you that. And I even mentioned, I said, I don't know if 9 Norm deleted them or not. Norm had left. I said, he was 10 on the computer cleaning up riles. And he said, well, I 11 can look and see. So he accessed someplace. There they 12 all are. All deleted. It gave the user ID that deleted 13 them and the time. Every one of them. And they weren't 14 retrievable. All it was was a record of the file name.
15 Norm comes back in and he said, did you find 16 them? I said, they've been deleted. He said -- he 17 started in, well, who deleted them? And I said, well, you 18 did, Norm. I didn't delete those. He went into a denial 19 thing. I said, Norm, it says right here UPSBNJH 11:06 20 p.m. I said, none of us were here, you were the only one, 21 that was on your shift. And he denied it, with me 22 pointing it out right on the screen. And that really 23 aggravated me. I didn't.say nothing, it just -- it
. 24 irritated me that he could deny it when it was right i
25 there. I knew Norm lied a lot. He fabricated and lied to
1 29 1 me and things like that.
) 2 Norm was very witty and he liked,'you know, he 3 liked to talk and had a lot -- like I say, there was a lot 4 of good things about Norm. He had a lot to offer.
5 So anyway, back up to the Test Shop. He jumped t
6 up, he wanted to know what my problem was. And I 7 responded likewise. I said I had no problem. And he told 2,
8 me, he said, ever since you come back off second shift 4
9 you've had an attitude. And that tripped my trigger. And
]
$ 10 I unloaded on him. I told him everything that bothered i l 11 me. -I told him everything that bothered me about the way.
f - 12 he done things, about the denial with the computer, about 13 the way he was treating Jerry. And I'd never spoke to him 14 about Jerry. And I told -- said things that I probably 15 shouldn't say. I don't remember, because the more I 16 talked the madder I got. It just was two years all balled 17 up inside me and I unloaded it all.
18 But my main thing was over -- I think the real 19 thing that really triggered me was the fact -- I went over
- 20 the fact about what he told Jerry, about going to the 21 meeting and sitting in the back and don't say anything.
22 About the way he had treated him. I told him that he 23 needed to come down off his high and mighty horse. I will 24 admit that I wasn't very professional.
25 But after a couple of years of it with not being
30 1 able to point out things from my perspective and maintain 2 a working relationship, because there was tices if I 3 disagreed with him he'd go days and not even speak to me.
4 And that's tough in an environment. He was constantly 5 telling Jerry and I we were going to get laid off, you 6 know, during the restructuring. He said, you guys will be 7 gone, you know. We don't need to hear that. It's tough 8 enough with -- with the way things are and the difficulty 9 of jobs that you don't need a supervisor telling you every 10 day you're going to get laid off.
11 And one incident was on a -- one morning we was 12 out there and we was talking and I said, well, I'm 13 probably going to get off, and then he says, why do you 14 say that? And I said, because you tell me that every day.
15 For three days he didn't speak to me. He said, well, I'm 16 just trying to keep you informed. He took it personally.
l 17 And he would get like that and just pout. '
l 18 And I don't know what all he said in the meeting l
19 and I don't remember everything I said in the meeting, j 20 But I did unload on him. Not about myself. I said 21 nothing that was personally about me. But I did say a lot 22 about the way things were going on in the department and 23 his fighting with Ernie and what he was doing to Jerry.
24 His denial over the deletion of files, et cetera, things 25 like that. And then I left and I thought about it and I
31-I went, and I'd never ever sent to a supervisor's supervisor 2 about a problem in my life, but it had reached a point, 3 especially over Jerry, that I went and talked to Herman. ;
4 1
1 4 MRS. SELEWSKI: Was that around the April time I
5 frame? '
l 6 MR. JACOBS: Yeah, that was -- that was when I ;
^
7 did. And when I talked to Herman I didn't talk to him 1
1 8 about me. I talked to him about the other things.
9 Because I -- I usually take care of my own. But the ;
10 overall importance of our department and from the 1
11 standpoint of a fellow employee, who I am.not friends 12 with, had no ties to, but just a humane thing about what i
13 went on that -- and Jerry not standing up for himself, 14 that I did. And that's --
15 MRS. SELEWSKI: So, you talked to -- you said, 16 Herman?
17 MR. JACOBS: Yes.
18 MRS. SELEWSKI: About how Jerry was being 19 treated by Hallenbeck? !
20 MR. JACOBS: Yeah. -
1 l
21 MRS. SELEWSKI: And by the -- )
1 22 MR. JACOBS: Yes. Herman had no idea that was 23 going on. He was just -- when I told him that, he 24 couldn't believe it. And Ernie was gone at the time. And !
25 when Ernie came back he come to me and talked to me. And II
4 I
32 1 I said, I'll talk to you about what I talked to them, not 2 about me, but just about what --
3 And it irritated me so much that later on that 4 day in my telling Ernie about it I just -- I had to cut 5 the conversation off because it made me mad again. That's l 6 how upsetting the whole scenario for two years anyway that 7 this had been going on and just getting worse and worse ]
8 and so I told him. And'Ernie had never done anything but 9 treat Jerry and I -- he's always friendly. Like I say, we i
10 didn't have a working relationship with Ernie because Norm 11 didn't want to have. But when I told Ernie that, he says 12 he was not -- he says, he can do anything to me he wants i
13 to, I can live with it, but I'm not going to let him treat 14 his subordinates in that way. And that was -- you could 15 tell he meant business. ,
16 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did he tell you what he was
- 17 going to do --
l 18 MR. JACOBS: No.
19 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- when you said this? Okay.
F 20 MR. JACOBS: No.
4 21 MRS. SELEWSKI: And the -- the deleting of the l 22 files, do you feel like he did that on purpose?
23 MR. JACOBS: I -- there was no other reason --
24 MRS. SELEWSKI: Hallenbeck?
25 MR. JACOBS: -- because he was very involved.
_ . .. _ _ _ _. _ _~
l 33 1 He and I did those together. And matter of fact, he was 2 more the creator than I was. I -- once we' both worked to !
I 3 design one and he done most of the drawing and developed I l
4 the directories for each group to go into. And we worked )
5 with those for quite some time. That I personally feel 6 that he intentionally done it. !
l 7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Why do you think he would do l
8 that? l
)
9 MR. JACOBS: Bitterness. Just to create --
10 because he turned right around and had Jerry and I rebuild 11 them and then he wouldn't participate or something like 12 that. It just -- the -- what he had in -- the type of 13 person he'd involved -- evolved into.
14 MRS. SELEWSKI: When did that happen? Was that 15 in April --
16 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh. (Nods affirmatively.)
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- the files?
18 MR. JACOBS: That's when we identified it. It 19 was -- I'm sure it was in the month of April or the latter 20 part of March, right in there. It was -- the outage was 21 still in progress when he was on nights, which according ;
1 22 to the time and date in the computer he would have been on l
23 the third shift. And the identity or identifying that 24 they had been deleted by him was done after I had came on 25 day shift. To what day that was, I don't -- I don't know.
l
34 1 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. There was a performance 2 -- interim performance appraisal that was done by Poarch 3 'on Hallenbeck in May of '94. At any point before that 4 time frame were you told what was going to be on that 5 performance appraisal by Poarch or Fagley?
6 MR. JACOBS' No. As a matter of fact --
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Let's go off the record for a 8 moment.-
9 (Off the record.)
10 MR. JACOBS: We're back on the record.
11 In regards to my knowledge of him being 12 reevaluated was found -- I found out about that after I 13 came back from vacation. I left for vacation April 29th, 14 I believe was the date, 28th or 29th. I don't know the 15 date that Ernie -- I informed, or Ernie came to me about 16 my confrontation. But it had to be in the later part of 17 April, because when I went to Herman the only reason I 18 went to Herman Ernie wasn't thar'J. And so within that )
l 19 time frame I left for two weekt. And when I was returned I 20 Norm wasn't showing up for work. Well, the first day back l
21 he wasn't there and Herman had told me that when Ernie 22 gets back on Tuesday -- because we were work'ing four tens 23 and he said he and Ernie would like to talk to Jerry and 24 I. So when we -- Ernie got back they called us in, and at ;
25 that point was when Herman told me that right now we want
- l .
35 1 you to take over the day-to-day welding activities. And
'2 Norm will handle the special projects -- continue with the
- 3. computer program and handle'special projects. So I said
, 4 yeah, that's no problem, we'll'do that.
5 MRS. SELEWSKI: What time frame was that again 6 that.he' told you youfd be --
7 MR. JACOBS: That was -- let's see, I was gone 8 for two weeks. I believe I -- not remembering the exact 9 dates, around the 15th, 16th, 17th of May when I got back 10 and we sr.t down. And he told me that, so I figured it was 11 just ten (.orary. But then as days went on, Norm's wife, 12 who was scill coming to work, was coming in and telling 13 Ernie that Norm was sick, wouldn't'be in.
14 .So, I can't remember who told me that Nort was 15 reevaluated but I-don't believe it was Ernie, because that 16 was a personal thing. Someone -- someone else had told me 17 they -- oh, I know who it '<as. Norm told me. I called 18 him because I knew there'd ic + trouble and I wanted to 19 just clear the air, so I called him at home. And I said, 20 what's going on Norm? He says, well, he says, I can't 21 tell you. I've got an attorney. Or -- no, he said, I'm 1 22 letting my doctor handle it. He'd starte d . going to the 23 doctor. So we talked a little bit and he said -- he told 24 me.that Ernie and Herman had called him in, reevaluated 25 him and they had discussed mine and his confrontation.
36 1 And so that's how -- that's how I found out about 2 that. As far as what was in the evaluation I don't know.
3 I have no idea. He wouldnt tell me and he made a very 4 short conversation with me. And that was the last time 5 I'd ever talked to him.
6 And then naturally there was -- there are several 7 -people that like Norm and they would call him. And then 8 the gossip naturally. And then plus what his wife had to 9 say. And with her friends that were on site. And things 10 leak out. And then a lot of times it's third and fourth-11- hand and it may be massaged a little bit or added on. So 12 you really couldn't specifically say. But that -- the 13 reevaluation was -- Norm told r.e they reevaluated him.
14
~
And he said they.really knocked him down. 'And it was over 15 supervising his people or something like that'. And it was.
16 based on my conversation. He says based.on what you went 17 and told Herman. And he said they discussed -- I didn't 18 get into asking him what they discussed. He said it was 19 just over the conversation I had.
20 MRS. SELEWSKI: So you thought he was blaming 21 you for that evaluation?
22 MR. JACOBS: Ye r. . Which I -- I understand that 23 to s point. But I understand and I don't accept the 24 deterioration there, the way he let himself deteriorate 3
25 over an' environment that in my belief-he created himself.
N' .
i j 37 4
j: 1 That's sad. But I do understand that me going to that and >
i 2 Norm being the type of person he turned out to be, that he 3- would naturally blame me for that. And he was always .}
r 4 throwing comments at me, I was after his job and stuff ,
5 -like that when he'd get on one of those moods. But that 6 was Norm. .;
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. So did you see the letter ,
t 8 that was put out regarding Hallenbeck's reassignment to ;
9 the computer project --
{
10 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh.
l 11 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- and dated -- I got to dig it ,
4 12 out here. ,
13 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, was that a yes?
1 14 MR. JACOBS: Yes, I'm sorry. Yes.
15 MRS. SELEWSKI:- Okay. l 16 MR.-JACOBS: That was a public memo, I believe, 17 that -- to let departments and certain individuals know 18 that' I would be handling the day-to-day projects and Norm 19 would be assigned to the special projects relating to the 20 computer system that was being implemented. ,
21- MRS. SELEWSKI: So when -- it was Fagley that 22 talked to you about this reassignment?
23 MR. JACOBS: Uh-huh. (Nods affirmatively.) i 24 MRS. SELEWSKI: This letter is dated May 17th, 25 '94.
38 1 MR. JACOBS: So that would have been the day 2 that we all talked.
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
4 MR. JACOBS: Okay. Because he said he was going 5 to do that. After the conversation he said, I'll put a-6 memo out.
7 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did he tell you why that was 8 being done, this reassignment, did he give you any details 9 of --
10 MR. JACOBS: Well, I don't think he really had 11 to elaborate on it because of the fact of all that was 12 taking place. That if Norm was going to supervise in that-13 fashion or treat his subordinates that way that the 14 company was obligated to make some adjustments there. And
'15 we all knew that and I don't.think he had to explain that.
16 At that point that he wanted me to take over the 17 day-to-day welding details and the way that it was led to 18 believe Norm would still be here. He was going to have 19 the welding program and especially the new computerized 20 system of getting it in place and things like that. And 21 there was no talk of a promotion or me taking over the 22 welding department, just the day-to-day welding 23 activities. Which was fine. Which was what I already 24 done. He just wanted people to recognize that they'd 25 contact me for that rather than Norm.
i l
4 39 I i
,1 MRS. SELEWSKI: I think Norm was under the !
2 understanding that that was going to be a permanent l 3 position for you, to take his job.
4 MR. JACOBS: No. That was not --
5 MRS. SELEWSKI: That that was all part of the !
6 harassment scheme.
7 MR. JACOBS: See, at this point Norm was still j 8 employed and he still had a job. Norm had a job up to the 9 day that he resigned. The company -- my understanding is !
i 10 when he got himself together and he wanted to come back he ;
i 11 had a job. Nobody was forcing him out. Herman, based on i 12 the problems we were having within our department, was not t 13 taking him out of his office or anything. It was still -- I 14 Jerry and I knew -- were under the understanding that' Norm i 15 was going _to come back, handle the computer program and )
l 16 Jerry and I'd continue on as we were. We'd just -- I'd be 1 17 like the lead that I would be.during an outage when other 18 people come in. But as far as a promotion, it was not 19 even discussed or considered as far as I know.
20- Because Norm, like I'say, he was still an
-21 employee at that time. It wasn't until he resigned that 22 Herman and Ernie talked to Jerry and I again about what j 23 they was going to do. They were going to leave Norm's 24 position as we talked earlier with Human Resources and we 1
12 5 would. continue. And they felt that two people could I
3 40 1 continue in that. And still at that point no talk of a 2 promotion.to me. In a casual conversation that Herman and 3 I was having about the position and stuff I had told him I 4 didn't-feel I was suitable for the job, you know.
5 MRS. SELEWSKI: Yes.
6 MR. JACOBS: But never has Herman approached me 7 to ao any more than what that memo says and what we later 8 discussed when Norm resigned.
9 MRS. SELEWSKI: So you didn't know how long this 10 would be in effect?
11 MR. JACOBS: No.
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Well, it says here until further 13 notica.
14 MR. JACOBS: Yes. Because at that. point really 15 I believe everybody believed that Norm was coming back. I 16 didn't personally, but I kept that to myself. Norm talked 17 about -- during the restructuring and in our conversations 18 that he wanted a buy-out. He wanted out. And he at one 1
19 ' point came over -- according to Norm, what he told me, 20 talked to Andy and asked if he could get it. At the point 21 he did that all of that business was over with. And he 22 told Norm, based on Norm's comments, that he couldn't do 23 that. It would take site management or something to order 24 that done. And Norm told me several times that he just 25 wanted to make enough time till his wife got vested, which
41 I was in July. And at the time he resigned was at the time 2 she got vested. .
3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Do you feel that that was the 4 motivation for Hallenbeck to start voicing some of these 5 intimidation / harassment concerns that he was voicing back 6 in '93. He thought that was a build-up for him'to have a 7 case to have -- to get a package or --
8 MR. JACOBS: I do.
9 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- retire early?
- 10. MR. JACOBS: I do. That's a personal feeling --
11 MRS. SELEWSKI: Yes, in your opinion --
12 MR. JACOBS: -- based on conversations that he 13 had talked to me about, that he was going to a doctor.
14 And then he told me about he signed up for the therapy 15 with the AP to, you know, to build along those lines. -You 16 could see, in my opinion, where it was going. But that is 17 strictly an opinion. Norm wanted the. buy-out. He just --
18 he just became to the point he despised anybody and 19 everybody. He had no social life. He had no friends.
20 People in the work place would come to Jerry and I to use 21 us as a buffer to get information from him. Like field 22 engineers or something. And yet most of them will tell 23 you Norm was a funny, witty person. But when it come to 24 business and some of the things that he had little hang-25 ups with, people got to where they didn't want to deal
1 42 l 1 with him.
2 MRS. SELEWSKI: In your opinion this -- these 3 personnel actions that were taken against Norm or with 4 Norm for Norm, including the performance evaluation and 5 this reassignment, do you feel like any of that was 6 intimidation / harassment on Fagley or Poarch's part?
7 MR. JACOBS: No. I think that when I went to 8 them with my concerns and enlightened them, because like I 9 told you, when I told Herman about it he was just like 10 he's dumbfounded. He had no idea that was going on. And 11 he kind of has a special place for Jerry because he knows 7
12 13 he's been going through a lot. So, Herman being a
~ '
14 protective persort , - .
]he j
15 felt just kind of disheartened that that had been going on l 1
16 in his group and he didn't know about it. I
~
l 17 I think that when I went to him about that and 18 then when they called him in and apparently there was no 19 denial, I personally don't think they had a choice.
. 20 Whether it'd been him or the previous management had that 21 come about I don't think that, with facts and that if they ,
1 1
22 looked at what Jerry was going through, if they went in to 23 the therapist or whatever followed and seen where Jerry'd ,
l 24 come over here and talked with them about the problem, l 25 that -- I don't feel that they were -- they didn't do it l
!/
, , r it '
43 1, because they wanted to just do it to Norm, I think they 2 had an obligation as a manager to do it.for the benefit of 3 'the department for employees. Because had that not
.4 happened I don't believe that they would have ever done 5 that, personally.
6 MRS. SELEWSKI: And so I guess if you and Jerry 7 had not voiced some concerns about Hallenbeck that this 8 would have never happened with his --
9 MR. JACOBS: They would have never known.
10 MRS. SELEWSKI: They would have never known 11 about it?
12 MR. JACOBS: Huh-uh. (Shakes head negatively).
13 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay.
14 Go off the record for a moment, I'll review a few 15 notes.
16 (Off the record to review documents.)
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: We're back on the record.
18 Did you ever see or witness Ernie compromising 19 welding code requirements or trying to take shortcuts to 20 get the job done instead of looking at the safety issues 21 surrounding welding codes or requirements?
22 MR. JACOBS: No, ma'am, I didn't see that nor-do 23 I believe that he would try to compromise or intentionally 24 do a procedure violation. I don't believe that. Not 25 based on the time I've got to know him and working more
44 1 directly with him and stuff. He's pretty -- he's gives us 2 a free hand. As a matter of fact, there's times if I 3 don't go to him and tell him what's going on he never 4 bothers us. A matter of fact, I personally like a 5 supervisor that is a little more involved with me than 6 that. But -- and every time that I went to him with a 7 problem that I needed a little reinforcement in getting 8 something done he takes the ball and runs with it.
9 I just -- I don't believe a man can intentionally 10 want to jeopardize his career, to intentionally commit a 11 procedure violation. I don't believe it. There is, you 12 know, there is in everything we do if we come up against 13 something we have revised procedures to better suit the 14 job, you know, through a formal type thing. But to 15 intentionally just go out there and violate one, I don't
, 16 believe that.
17 MRS. SELEWSKI: Do you have any idea of why --
18 this would be ir. your opinion again, Hallenbeck would 19 document over a period of a year or two incidences in 20 which he felt he was being intimidated and harassed? Do 21 you feel he truly believed that he was being intimidated 22 and harassed?
23 MR. JACOBS: No. I think it was a method that 24 -- Norm is -- was smart, like I told you. And he was --
J 25 to give you an example: If they had problems outside of
45 1 work with a company or a business or something, they were 2 a letter-writing people. They were the letter-writing --
3 a matter of fact, I bought a motorcycle, to give you an 1
4 example, and the seat was a very uncomfortable seat. I 5 went and bought a new seat. His wife wrote a letter to 6 Harley-Davidson for me to give, just to send it in. They I
)
7 were fanatics with that stuff. And Norm was a very 8 determined person. He wouldn't back off for nothing. And l 9 he was smart. And I see this as a method of beating Ernie 10 Poarch. That is my opinion. !
11 MRS. SELEWSKI: And you feel like that's one of 12 the reasons he kept doc -- such detailed documentation?
13 MR. JACOBS: Yes. FP&L's not the first company
- 14. that Norm has had problems with. I don't know that it 15 ever was anything documented, but I -- we both used to 16 work for Bechtel Corporation and we didn't know each other 17 at the time, but -- and Bechtel began to cut down, most of 1
1 18 their welding engineers that had a lot going for them, 19 they found places within the company. And it's my 20 understanding, not known to be a fact, that when he was at 21 Marble Hill he didn't like his immediate supervisor and 4 22 did the same thing, going around them and stuff. And , l 23 unfortunately when Marble Hill was shut down it -- Norm 24 wasn't picked up like that.
25 MRS. SELEWSKI: Did he complain of his Marble )
- - - . - - . .- .. - . = . - - . - - - - . - - _ . - . . . . - . - ..
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46 1 Hill' supervisor intimidating and harassing him or was
- 2 it --
3 MR. JACOBS: No, just that he didn't like him, 4 was a dumb S.O.B. That's -- that is the type of words a
s 5 towards him, just negative words and stuff. I truly '
i J
6 believe that Norm just felt he had a way he could possibly '
- 7 -- a big company, is gone, to really get in the Court or
8 something like that and he had such ill feelings towards l 9 Ernie that even if he got nothing, that he could just .
- 10 create heartache for the man. And -- which is apparently .
t 11 what he's done.
4 12 I -- he used to tell me that he talked to the guy 13 down at Turkey Point where Ernie had come from and the guy I 1.
14 was constantly telling him all of the bad things Ernie did
- 15 and all this. Well, after Norm left and Human Resources
- 16 wanted to talk to me and Greg and Jerry, Greg called me up ;
j 17 and wanted to know what's going on. And I said, well,
? ,
18 Norm says that you made these comments about Ernie and all !
19 that and.I'm sure they want to just verify. He said, I :
20 never said nothing about Ernie, never even worked with 21 him. He said, I knew he was on site but I never worked )
22 with him to ---like that to have anything. So -- )
23 MRS. SELEWSKI: What's.Greg's last name?
24 MR. JACOBS: Rogers.
25 MRS. SELEWSKI: So that's who he's claiming was
47 1 giving him negative inforniation about Ernie at Turkey 2 Point?
3 MR. JACOBS: At one -- that's what Norm was ,
4 telling me. I don't --
5 MRS. SELEWSKI: Have you ever heard of Ernie 6 having the complaints made against.him at Turkey Point --
- 7. MR. JACOBS: No. Matter of fact --
8 MRS. SELEWSKI: -- regarding --
9 MR. JACOBS: -- they talked about Greg being one 10 of the prospects for coming up here. And Ernie is --
11 well, I get out of the conversation Ernie is pro Greg 12 coming up. Everybody likes Greg, he's one of those guys.
13 MRS. SELEWSKI: Is there anything you want to 14 add that's related to his allegation, to Hallenbeck's I
15 allegation? Anything I missed that I may have not asked 16 about that's related that you know about that will help me I
17 evaluate to make some type of call on this?
18 MR. JACOBS: I really don't have anything to 19- add. We've pretty well -- just kind of go -- because 20 there's so much you don't remember on a day-to-day i
21 routine. They were just some specific items that came up i 22 and -- Norm's a very, in his heart's a good person. But 23 like I say, he's very insecure, he's hardheaded, and he's, ;
l 24 in my opinion,.very devious once he starts going through 25 the motions. And if you mest Norman and talk to him and
1 l
l 48 i 1 everything you just have a different -- he's a nice 2 paroon, but once he turns on you he'll never forget you. l l
3 You'll never recover from it. But -- and it's all sad l l
4 that this has come about. Because he and his family are -
J 5 the losers. But between him and his wife were knocking !
6 down probably close to a year, including outage 7 work and stuff like that. And to let this get a hold of 8 you so much that you jeopardize that -- over years old, 9 to go out into this work place, it's sad. And that's the 10 only thing I can say. I hated to see it happen to him, 11 because he had a lot to offer.
12 MRS. SELEWSKI: Is there anything else you can 13 add or summarize?
14 MR. JACOBS: Not to my knowledge. I don't know.
15 We pretty well covered all his allegations that he says 16 and -- and as far as like a lot of nit pick items that 17 went on too. I don't even remember that stuff. I don't 18 want to even try, you know. I asked Jerry yesterday, I !
19 said, how do you feel, do you feel comfortable in going on
. 20 this? I said, do you remember the situations that went 21 on? And he says, well, he said, I remember a lot of 22 things that I wish I could forget. And it's too bad he 23 left that and the guys so -- Really, I think that's 24 pretty well it.
25 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. y
,.; , pp J if -
.t 49 1 Did you give this statement voluntarily today?
i 2 MR. JACOBS: Yes, I did. i 3 MRS. SELEWSKI: Okay. We'll go ahead and i
4 conclude the interview. I appreciate'your time today. ,
5 (Whereupon, the proceedings were adjourned at 6 4:10 o' clock p.m.) l 7 ----- >
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$0 1 CERTIFICATE i
2 This is to certify that the attached proceedings l
3 before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in j 4 the matter of:
5 Name of Proceeding: Interview of Dale Jacobs 6 Docket Number (s): (not assigned) 7 Place of Proceeding: St. Lucie Nuclear Plant, 8 Jensen Beach, Florida 9
10 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original 11 transcript thereof for the file of the United States 12 Nuclear hegulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter 13 reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the 14 court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true 15 and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
16 17 18 '
1/ 4 d Y &n 19 m'Peggy S. May -
l 20 Official Reporter 8
21 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.
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