ML101100535
| ML101100535 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 04/09/2010 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| Chawla M, NRR/DORL, 415-8371 | |
| References | |
| NRC-1840 | |
| Download: ML101100535 (39) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title: 2.206 Petition RE Palisades Nuclear Plant
Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: (telephone conference)
Date: Friday, April 9, 2010
Work Order No.: NRC-184 Pages 1-37
NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1 + + + + +
2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 4 --------------------------- 5 In the Matter of: :
6 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION :
7 ON PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT :
8 BY MICHAEL MULLIGAN :
9 --------------------------- 10 11 Friday, April 9, 2010 12 13 The above-entitled conference convened via 14 teleconference, pursuant to notice, at 1:00 p.m.
15 Eastern Standard Time.
16 BEFORE: 17 TOM BLOUNT, Petition Review Board Chairman 18 Division of Policy and Rulemaking 19 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 NRC STAFF PRESENT:
1 ERIC BOWMAN, Acting Branch Chief, NRR 2 MAHESH (MAC) CHAWLA, Petition Manager 3 ALLEN HISER, JR., Senior Level Advisor, NRR 4 ROBERT LERCH, Project Engineer, Region III 5 TANYA MENSAH, PRB Coordinator, NRR 6 KENT WOOD, Technical Reviewer, NRR 7 MATTHEW YODER, Senior Chemical Engineer, NRR 8 ALSO PRESENT:
9 ED WEINKAM, Entergy 10 MIKE MULLIGAN, Petitioner 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (1:00 p.m.)
2 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to thank 3 everybody for attending this meeting. My name is Mac 4 Chawla. I am the Palisades Nuclear Plant Project 5 Manager. We are here today to allow the petitioner, 6 Mike Mulligan, to address the Petition Review Board 7 regarding the 2.206 petition dated Jan. 28, 2010.
8 I am the petition manager for this 9 petition. The Petition Review Board Chairman is Tom 10 Blount. As part of the Petition Review Board's, or 11 PRB's, review of this petition, Mike Mulligan has 12 requested this opportunity to address the PRB.
13 This meeting is scheduled from 1:00 to 14 2:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. The meeting is being 15 recorded by NRC Operations Center and will be 16 transcribed by a Court Reporter. The transcript will 17 become a supplement to the petition. The transcript 18 will also be made publicly available.
19 I would like to open this meeting with 20 introductions. As you go around the room, please be 21 sure to clearly state your name, your position, and 22 the office that you work for within the NRC for the 23 record. 24 I'll start off. My name is Mac Chawla. I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4 am the petition manager here.
1 MR. YODER: My name is Matthew Yoder, 2 senior chemical engineer, NRR, Division of Component 3 Integrity.
4 MR. WOOD: My name is Kent Wood. I am a 5 technical reviewer in the Reactor Systems Branch, NRR.
6 MR. HISER: Allen Hiser, senior-level 7 adviser for license renewal in the office of NRR.
8 CHAIR BLOUNT: Tom Blount, PRB Chair, 9 Office of NRR.
10 MR. CHAWLA: Are there any representatives 11 for the licensee on the phone?
12 MR. WEINKAM: Mr. Chawla, this is Edward 13 Weinkam, W-e-i-n-k-a-m. I'm the Senior Manager, 14 Licensing for the Northeast.
15 MR. CHAWLA: Mr. Mulligan, would you 16 please introduce yourself for the record?
17 MR. MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan. And 18 basically I'm an interested citizen.
19 MR. CHAWLA: I am sorry. We need to get 20 the region. Sorry. I omitted that.
21 MR. LERCH: That's fine, Mac. I'm the 22 only here in the region. My name is Robert Lerch.
23 I'm the project engineer for Palisades DRP branch 4.
24 MR. CHAWLA: And the PRB coordinator?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5 MS. MENSAH: I'm Tanya Mensah, Office of 1 Nuclear Reactor Regulation. I'm the 2.206 2 coordinator.
3 MR. CHAWLA: Are there any others, such as 4 members of the public, on the phone?
5 MR. BOWMAN: Eric Bowman. I'm the Acting 6 Branch Chief for the Licensing Processes Branch in the 7 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
8 MR. CHAWLA: Okay. Anyone else?
9 (No response.)
10 MR. CHAWLA: I think we have gone through 11 everybody here. Okay. Mr. Mulligan, would you please 12 introduce yourself for the record?
13 MR. MULLIGAN: I am Mike Mulligan. I am 14 interacting with the agency for a number of years over 15 a host of stuff. And basically I am just an 16 interested citizen. And I do have some experience in 17 the industry.
18 MR. CHAWLA: I would like to emphasize 19 that we each need to speak clearly and loudly to make 20 sure that the Court Reporter can accurately transcribe 21 this meeting.
22 MR. MULLIGAN: Was I talking too low or 23 something? I just want to know. I'm going to try and 24 -- 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6 MR. CHAWLA: I think you were fine.
1 MR. MULLIGAN: All right.
2 MR. CHAWLA: If you do have something that 3 you would like to say, please first state your name 4 for the record. For those dialing into the meeting, 5 please remember to mute your phones to minimize any 6 background noise or distractions. If you do not have 7 a MUTE button, this can be done by pressing the key 8 *6. To unmute, press the *6 key again. Thank you.
9 At this time, I will turn it over to the 10 PRB Chairman, Tom Blount.
11 CHAIR BLOUNT: This is Tom Blount. Good 12 afternoon. Welcome to the meeting regarding the 2.206 13 petition submitted by Mr. Mulligan. I would like to 14 first share some background on our process.
15 Section 2.206 of title X [10] of the Code 16 of Federal Regulations describes the petition process, 17 the primary mechanism for the public to request 18 enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
19 This process permits anyone to petition 20 NRC to take enforcement-type action related to NRC 21 licensees or licensed activities. Depending upon the 22 results of this evaluation, NRC could modify, suspend, 23 or revoke an NRC-issued license or take any other 24 appropriate enforcement action to resolve a problem.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7The NRC staff guidance for the disposition of 2.206 1 requests is a management directive, 8.11, which is 2 publicly available.
3 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 4 the petitioner an opportunity to provide any 5 additional explanation or support for the petition 6 before the Petition Review Board's initial 7 consideration and recommendation.
8 This meeting is not a hearing, nor is it 9 an opportunity for the petitioner to question or 10 examine the PRB on the merits or the issues presented 11 in the petition request. No decisions regarding the 12 merits of this petition will be made at this meeting.
13 Following this meeting, the Petition 14 Review Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
15 The outcome of this internal meeting will be 16 discussed with the petitioner.
17 The Petition Review Board typically 18 consists of a chairman, usually a manager at the 19 Senior Executive Service level at the NRC. It has a 20 petition manager and a PRB coordinator. Other members 21 of the Board are determined by the NRC staff based on 22 the content of the information in the petition 23 request. 24 At this time I would like to introduce the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8Board. I am Tom Blount, the Petition Review Board 1 Chairman. Mac Chawla is the petition manager for the 2 petition under discussion today. Tanya Mensah is the 3 2.206 coordinator.
4 Our technical staff includes Kent Wood 5 from the Office of NRR's Reactor Systems Branch; Matt 6 Yoder from the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, 7 Steam Generator Tube Integrity and Chemical 8 Engineering Branch; Allen Hiser from the Office of 9 NRR's Division of License Renewal; Bob Lerch from NRC 10 Region III's Division of Reactor Projects.
11 As described in our process, the NRC staff 12 may ask clarifying questions in order to better 13 understand the petitioner's presentation and to reach 14 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 15 petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 16 process. 17 I would like to summarize the scope of the 18 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 19 date. On January 28th, 2010, Mr. Mulligan submitted 20 to the NRC a petition under 2.206 regarding Palisades 21 Nuclear Plant license renewal.
22 In this petition request, Mr. Mulligan 23 identified his concern regarding the 20-year Palisades 24 nuclear relicensing, which was completed on January 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 918th, 2007. He is challenging the NRC activities 1 during relicensing of the plant, specifically 2 regarding the lack of evaluation of the swollen fuel 3 racks problem identification and correction.
4 He also accuses NRC of wrongdoing and 5 states that the NRC participated in a coverup --
6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off 7 the record briefly.)
8 CHAIR BLOUNT: This is Tom Blount. I will 9 continue.
10 He also accuses NRC of wrongdoing and 11 states that NRC participated in a coverup through 12 delaying of inspection activities to obfuscate the 13 connection of relicensing and the swelling of the fuel 14 racks. This allegation of NRC wrongdoing has been 15 referred to the Office of the Inspector General and 16 will not be part of the Petition Review Board's 17 activities.
18 Mr. Mulligan requests that the NRC, one, 19 conduct an investigation around the swollen fuel racks 20 and relicensing and allow Mr. Mulligan to participate 21 in the investigation; two, if the deception and 22 falsification at Palisades Nuclear Plant is similar to 23 Vermont Yankee, take the following action: order an 24 immediate shutdown of the Palisades Nuclear Plant, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 0replace the Palisades management team, pull the 1 licenses of all Entergy nuclear power plants, NRC and 2 Entergy employees involved in falsification be 3 prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
4 Allow me to discuss the NRC activities to 5 date. On February 1st, 2010, the petitioner requested 6 to address the PRB prior to its initial meeting.
7 On February 18th, 2010, the petitioner 8 addressed the PRB. The purpose of the call was to 9 give an opportunity to the petitioner to provide any 10 additional information.
11 On March 9th, 2010, the PRB met internally 12 to review the petition and make an initial 13 recommendation. The PRB determined that the petition 14 met the criteria for review under 10 CFR 2.206.
15 However, the PRB rejected the petition using the 16 criteria and management directive 8.11 because the 17 issue had been previously reviewed and resolved.
18 On March 17th, 2010, this information was 19 sent to the petitioner via an e-mail, providing him 20 another opportunity to address the PRB.
21 On March 23rd, 2010, the petitioner 22 requested an additional call with NRC prior to the 23 teleconference to address the PRB. On March 31st, 24 2010, a teleconference was conducted with the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 1 petitioner to discuss the PRB's initial recommendation 1 and provide any clarification if needed.
2 The petitioner requested information 3 regarding agency documents discussed during the call.
4 On March 31st, 2010, a list of pertinent agency 5 documents was sent to the petitioner via an e-mail.
6 As a reminder to the phone participants, 7 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 8 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 9 transcript that will be made publicly available.
10 Mr. Mulligan, I will turn it over to you 11 to allow you to provide any information you believe 12 the PRB should consider as part of this petition. You 13 will have approximately 30 to 45 minutes to address 14 the PRB. Thank you.
15 MR. MULLIGAN: Hi. I am Mike Mulligan. I 16 would like to thank the universe and the privilege of 17 being a United States citizen to participate in this 18 process. 19 We should recognize that it seems that 20 Turkey Point has similar problems with their fuel 21 pool. There is issues of -- you know, we're all a 22 twinkle in our mothers' and fathers' eyes.
23 The nuclear industry, how it was born was 24 essentially -- was a creative process. Somebody woke 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 2up one day and said, "Well, we have all this -- these 1 power plants making energy and sending a lot of energy 2 out into the waters as discharge." And they thought, 3 you know, "Hey, maybe we could make it into a power 4 plant or maybe we can even miniaturize it and make a 5 submarine." And that is how the nuclear industry was 6 born. 7 Our world is built on subjectivity, on 8 creativity, those processes in the brain. And we have 9 a creative moment. We dream about it. And we build 10 this world. The rest of the world is built over that.
11 The industry was built over this subjective process.
12 And then we built it. And essentially in that 13 process, we started measuring things. And that 14 created the objective world that is upon us and stuff 15 like that. So I just -- it's important.
16 How I think the 2.206 process will be 17 fixed is if we start getting away from evidence-based 18 information, we default into a good question. You 19 know, if somebody has a good question, this will 20 engage the 2.206 process.
21 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 22 Blount. So I am trying to understand the relationship 23 between subjective and objective, relative to the 24 issue at Palisades. Could you give me a little more 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 3 information on that?
1 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, you know, you come up 2 with this kind of evidence-based logic system and 3 stuff like that. And a lot of times we know that an 4 emergence of problems like Palisades if you wait for 5 the triplicate evidence to show up, it's too late.
6 You are out 20 years before all the evidence shows up.
7 And most of these problems wouldn't be 8 here if we kind of tilted to the subject side of 9 things, started asking questions, and started probing 10 and figuring out what these little problems are, 11 instead of waiting for this bureaucratic, rules-based 12 over and over again kind of game that ends up where we 13 are today with a risk-based system. And we end up 14 with non-safety-related pipes leaking into the ground.
15 And it creates a national uproar and stuff like that.
16 So that's what this is all about.
17 I'm trying to explain that I think we're 18 too evidence-based. We're too rules and stuff.
19 You've got to make a lot of cases where the rules are 20 -- were invented so that it would make the process 21 hard to figure out what is going on and correcting it.
22 CHAIR BLOUNT: Okay. This is Tom Blount 23 again. So that I am clear and I understand what you 24 are offering, what I think I heard you say is that we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 4 need a different process.
1 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes.
2 CHAIR BLOUNT: And I appreciate that.
3 What I am very much interested in today, though, is a 4 discussion that helps us better understand your 5 specific petition regarding the fuel racks and the 6 Palisades spent fuel pool and the swelling thereof.
7 So if you can give us additional 8 information around that subject, it would be very 9 useful to us.
10 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, it's not -- well, you 11 know, it's a catch-22. Basically what it comes down 12 to is you are looking for evidence-based information 13 and, you know, this big hurdle in front of me as far 14 as I don't -- I can't see what really went on there.
15 You know that. I can't really see. Everybody knows 16 that what gets written down and all that sort of stuff 17 is a small proportion of what really goes on and that 18 type of thing.
19 So, you know, you're sitting here saying, 20 "Mike, evidence-based? What have you got for new 21 information that's evidence-based?" And I'm telling 22 you that there's probably a lot to be said on the 23 subjective side of this. Being able to talk in a way 24 that engages people, this is just as important as the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 5 evidence, the so-called evidence.
1 The shame of this, I mean, the new 2 information is, like you told me -- it's still a 3 mystery of what is going on. How can -- you know, you 4 guys are a science-based and engineering-based 5 organization. And 20 years later, we're sitting here, 6 and you don't know what is underneath the stuck racks, 7 the stuck fuel assemblies.
8 How could this bureaucracy so corrupt 9 science and engineering that the first instincts of 10 people is I've got an anomaly going on here, I've got 11 something I don't understand?
12 And it probably is not safety-related.
13 It's not going to melt on the core and stuff like --
14 but how does that not end up being our first 15 priorities to figure out what that anomaly -- what is 16 going on with that anomaly?
17 How can we -- how do you guys sit there, 18 the agency, over 20 years and not saying, "You know, 19 we've got to understand what is going on underneath 20 all of this?" 21 We've got to immediately understand. We 22 can't wait 20 years. We can't wait from 2007 to come 23 to this point where we have a discussion about it or 24 you have a white finding.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 6 Within weeks, we've got to find out what 1 is going on there or months, within a very short time 2 understand what is going on and be able to predict the 3 future, be able to predict what is going to happen in 4 the future.
5 I mean, it's such corruption of science 6 and engineering what's going on here. It's a national 7 disgrace. And so this is what I'm trying to talk 8 about and stuff.
9 You know, in response to NRC request for 10 additional information related to the license renewal 11 dated October 21st, 2005, NMC will perform a neutron 12 absorption test of selected cells in U.S. spent fuel 13 racks prior to -- 2005, and they're going to figure it 14 out in 2011. How can that be? How does that end up 15 being like that?
16 We know that in 2005, there was a 17 degradation going on and stuff like that. Everybody 18 knows that. They had multiple stuck assemblies in 19 there. And nobody has got alarm signals going off in 20 their head saying a stuck assembly. That is a big 21 deal and stuff like that. So 2005, that response to 22 the NRC request, it's astonishing.
23 Then you go down to -- I mean, the 24 rationalizations that's going on here with this 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 7licensing response is, you know, "We don't have any 1 degradation." I mean, it's falsification.
2 They're going on there with their 3 rationalization that, you know, there's only a minimum 4 degradation with the boron going on and stuff like --
5 and they're giving you different -- we're not for 6 another -- rationalizations and excuses and stuff like 7 that. And you're buying it hook, line, and sinker. I 8 mean, it's amazing.
9 And then you get into the safety 10 evaluation report. You know, you start -- in that 11 evaluation report, licensee admits that they've got 12 stuck assemblies in there.
13 Again, where is the questioning mind of 14 back then? Why didn't people -- you know, there was 15 unknown degradation. An abomination of science from 16 back in the '80s as far as not understanding the 17 mechanism that was going on. And people are saying, 18 "Somehow we spin this around in the bureaucracy and 19 say it's not a relicensing issue"? How can that be?
20 How can that be?
21 That is a corruption of truth in one way 22 or another. I mean, that's what is going on here.
23 And as a reactor operator in the past, what is really 24 going on here is all of this kind of playing word 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 8 games and stuff like that.
1 It is intimidating the people in the 2 control rooms, you know, that people have this kind of 3 power to ignore problems for decades on end. What are 4 the chances of me challenging the company that is 5 going to have to spend millions of dollars to fix a 6 known problem? What is the challenge of me being 7 successful with doing that? None. The system has too 8 much power.
9 Then you go on. What are these test 10 coupons? You know, they're talking about test 11 coupons, and they're depending on test coupons. And 12 they're saying, "Oh, that's going to dictate that we 13 don't have any degradation going on in 2009." We 14 know. We know that there was 50 percent degradation.
15 You know?
16 The whole process is, you know, they sign 17 these things for two safety barriers or more and stuff 18 like that. Then they put this defective equipment in 19 the fuel pools.
20 Then we have a -- we commence decades of 21 work-arounds, you know, decades of -- I could talk 22 about language work-arounds, too. Really, all of this 23 is about corruption in language.
24 The first thing that goes on -- the first 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 9organ that goes -- I'm an old man. The first organ 1 that goes with institutional problems is the 2 corruption of language. This beginning of fiddling 3 around with words and phrases and code words and 4 saying one thing and meaning another, that is what 5 goes first. The next thing you end up doing is you 6 end up having problems.
7 You know what Palisades is? It is the 8 Upper Big Branch mine. This is what Palisades is is 9 that this coal mine that just collapsed and 25 10 fatalities and stuff like that.
11 I'll tell you right now in looking at 12 history, you know, if something pops up here in the 13 next year or so like that, if anything happens, if we 14 get another leaking non-safety pipe with radioactivity 15 in the ground, an incident similar to that where we 16 get a lot of public opinion going on in this and they 17 start looking back at Palisades, they're going to 18 think about all just disgrace of the regulatory action 19 as far as over the years, this fiddling with words and 20 not sitting there and saying, "You know, we've got a 21 problem here. This is the -- we're going to spend 22 money and time, and we're going to figure out what the 23 mechanism is, and we're going to correct it." 24 And they should have from the get-go been 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 0 forced to pull up racks and put in decent racks that 1 would have done the job. Instead, we're out here for 2 decades driving up complexity. I mean, that is what 3 is going on here.
4 You are trading capacity factor and 5 profits for complexity. You are allowing these guys 6 to think of what happened, think if they would have in 7 the beginning figured out the mechanism and stuff and 8 made them correct that problem in the beginning.
9 Think of how less complex this world would 10 be. Think of all these resources that Entergy has 11 spent and think of the resources the agency -- how 12 much has this wasted over this business of 13 work-arounds.
14 This business over decades of not dealing 15 with problems and coming up with this rationalization 16 and that rationalization and stuff like that to come 17 up with what we have today, I mean, I think this is 18 another problem. I think this is a problem showing up 19 here, and it is a safety problem.
20 We probably can't measure it, but the 21 safety problem is complexity. The NRC is -- when 22 there are work-arounds or defective equipment, they 23 don't make them fix it quick and get over with it.
24 They ramp up complexity. They make them 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 1make procedures and bureaucracy. And the system sucks 1 resources from the agency and also the utility, where 2 it should be better put to use dealing with real 3 problems and stuff like that.
4 This thing should have been cut off in the 5 beginning. And we wouldn't be dealing with this 6 astonishing amount of complexity. And that is a 7 safety problem in one way or another. This sucks 8 resources from more safety-important areas. And it 9 goes into this thing.
10 And I think the agency drives complexity.
11 I think the enemy of reliable plant and safe 12 operation is this crazy set of complexity, this crazy 13 generation of complexity going on.
14 We know that going all through this 15 licensing thing, they're talking of minimizing that 16 there is no -- I mean, there was degradation going on.
17 There was degradation that was not known to be 18 happening.
19 And these guys in the agency is making 20 them believe that there's no -- you don't have the 21 mechanisms to, you know, figure out what is going. I 22 mean, going future, do you guys have the capabilities 23 to understand an anomaly, you know? Did they get out 24 and -- I mean, this is what this represents.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 2 Going future, none of the problem shows 1 up. Do you have the ability to touch the foundational 2 facts and be able to predict the future? I mean, it's 3 astonishing what this represents as far as the 4 agency's failure and the licensee's, you know.
5 I just -- it's amazing how much talk 6 about, you know, "We know what's going on," "We know 7 what's going on," "We know what's going on," all these 8 different ways the utility said that "We know that 9 there is no degradation going on in the racks." 10 And, like I said, there also was a 11 discussion during relicensing that there was a stuck 12 assembly. I can't understand how that stuck assembly 13 didn't come back and, you know -- you know, you would 14 have said, you would have come back and said, 15 "Everybody was dancing around." 16 The agency -- as far as what I can see, 17 the agency and energy were not disclosing -- you know, 18 dancing around with language and words and phrases and 19 asking this specific way and responding in this 20 specific way through a set of rules or it could be the 21 rules they follow, their internal rules you guys have 22 and stuff like that.
23 Dancing around we might have one stuck 24 assembly or there was one stuck assembly. And nobody 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 3-- one stuck assembly. And then the next question 1 comes up, well, how many stuck assemblies do you have 2 and stuff like that, you know?
3 And then just going through and writing up 4 the information. As it comes in, oh, you ask another 5 question and not being able to know that you don't 6 truly understand what is going on in the racks, with 7 the steel racks, not knowing -- not being able to 8 expend resources to quickly find out what's going on 9 in the way with that rack, just that it's an 10 abomination of science and engineering when you really 11 get down to it.
12 And, you know, that's what I told you 13 about that coal mine. We're all going to be held 14 accountable if something happens in the future in one 15 way or another.
16 I mean, we'll always be able to go back at 17 my words and ours here. And if something happens, 18 like I said, we'll be all held accountable in one way 19 or another if the media is involved or especially our 20 consciences, you know, if something bad goes on here, 21 not only Entergy but also us as far as we have the 22 ingredients of what was going on here and we didn't 23 put a stop to it.
24 You get into the 2005, "On the basis of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 4 this review, the staff concludes that the applicant 1 has demonstrated that aging effects associated with 2 the neutron-absorbing panels will be adequately 3 managed so that the attendant functions will be 4 maintained consistent with a CLB for the period of 5 extended operation," right?
6 You don't have to do the black testing 7 until -- what was it? -- 2011. And we know those --
8 we know that they had boron degradation going on there 9 right now -- or right then, 2005.
10 And then I think the agency -- Entergy 11 said at the time, "We know what's going on here." 12 And the NRC came back, "I agree. You know 13 what's going on here. We know what's going on here," 14 blah blah blah. "This is the future. This is how 15 we're going to set up the future with watching the 16 skies" and stuff.
17 We know now that that was absolutely 18 untrue. You had no idea of the process, the 19 underlying process, that was going on here and the 20 degradation.
21 So, you know, in the future, we look in 22 the future. You know, some new situation comes up.
23 You're going to rationalize the new process, the new 24 problem showing up. And you're going to send this 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 5through the bureaucracy and our own logic systems and 1 discount what is going -- you know, that is 2 Davis-Besse. That is exactly what happened at 3 Davis-Besse.
4 Everybody was following the rule. You 5 know, everybody is following the rules approaching 6 Davis-Besse. Everybody was screaming that they're 7 following the rules, both the agency and First Energy 8 and stuff like that. Anybody was absolutely sure the 9 process was right and something big was missed.
10 And you've got to keep that in mind when 11 you start throwing, you know, the facts at me because 12 the facts are a lot wider than what you can prove, 13 especially when there's a barrier in front of you, you 14 know, when there's a -- something keeping you from 15 knowing all of the information. And it might be the 16 primary containment or it might be your ability to --
17 the capability to probe what is going on and ask 18 questions and make people answer your questions.
19 And then we get into the December 2009 20 white finding, the 2009-08. I actually talked to the 21 inspector that discovered this. And I was talking 22 this week to a project manager. And he was exhausted 23 with me, really.
24 I mean, he said, "Mike, all we are are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 6inspectors." And, you know, he was saying, "All we 1 are are inspectors" as, you know, we inspect things.
2 We don't think. That's all we do is report things.
3 My opinion is, you know, inspectors at the 4 plant, you know, the subjectivity, they're really 5 painters. They really paint portraits. They sit 6 there and say, "This is the dysfunction we see. This 7 is the emergent dysfunction." 8 And their capabilities, what they really 9 should be paid to do is paint a portrait, paint a 10 picture, build a statue. This is the dysfunction.
11 And this is my ability to draw people in with 12 interest, into this minor problem, so that we fully 13 understand that problem and correct it before it gets 14 big. 15 I was astonished with what this inspector 16 was saying. This is a project manager. He was 17 saying, "All we are is inspectors." That's a 18 limitation of your capability. I know all we do is --
19 isn't there something bigger than that, than just 20 being an inspector?
21 Isn't it you are a communicator? You 22 communicate to a license. You communicate within the 23 agency. You communicate. You are an artist. These 24 inspectors are supposed to be artists. They're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 7supposed to be able to paint a picture that is beyond 1 the facts in a way that engages people.
2 And I don't necessarily engage people, the 3 facts on themselves. Sometimes you have to present 4 the information in an interesting way to engage 5 people, to get people's interest and stuff, because 6 that is what we're ultimately here for is to pick up 7 on emerging problems, pay attention to it, and fix 8 them before they get into big problems.
9 So this inspector is doing -- let's see 10 what he says. Condition reports. He has got this 11 refueling in 2007 with the start -- this thing started 12 in 1988 -- 1994-1995. They figured out the stuck 13 racks. 14 And they got this guy, this inspector.
15 And you guys take credit for it, which you really 16 shouldn't. You should be embarrassed. He's looking 17 at condition reports. And he notices that two fuel 18 assemblies are stuck. And this sets in motion the 19 different processes you guys have and stuff.
20 You find out -- I mean, then you find out 21 that 11 or 12 assemblies are stuck and stuff through 22 this thing and stuff. It's kind of amazing that --
23 you know, how much sooner could that have happened on 24 the first stuck bundle? You know, how much sooner?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 8 The bundles are stuck, right?
1 I mean, whose responsibility is that? Is 2 it an operating plant's responsibility? Is it we're 3 going to wait until decommissioning and they're going 4 to have to figure out a way to take the bundles out of 5 the fuel racks? Whose responsibility is that going to 6 be? Is that coming from the operating funds or is 7 that coming from the decommissioning funds?
8 You know, how much -- who is to say that a 9 lot stuff doesn't get released when they're trying to 10 yank them bundles out of there. And it ends up being 11 20 years from now or whatever it is, you know, a very 12 costly problem to fix and stuff.
13 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan --
14 MR. MULLIGAN: Do you know what altruism 15 abuse is, altruism abuse is, or the justification or 16 rationalization for doing good? It basically is 17 taking a minor altruism event or doing good or 18 rationalization and it overrides a bigger altruism.
19 So, all of a sudden, this minor altruism 20 overwhelms the greater needs of more people. That's 21 what altruism abuse -- in my opinion, the NRC is 22 riddled with altruism abuse as far as their 23 rationalizations are concerned. I can do many 24 examples of that that's going on here, this twisting 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 9the words and twisting of philosophies and all that 1 sort of stuff.
2 Nineteen eighty-eight is when the licensee 3 first identified the rack location. Nineteen 4 eighty-eight was the first time, you know, that little 5 tickle is a problem going on there. And nobody, even 6 to this day, nobody has the instincts to drive out 7 what is causing this. You know, science is going on 8 here. And it is disgraceful how it is being abused.
9 I mean, you know, the licensee first 10 identified stuck bundles in 1991, right, 11 fuel 11 bundles? When did the -- how come relicensing didn't 12 capture that? I mean, it doesn't sound like, you 13 know, anybody was -- the documents that was given me, 14 it doesn't sound like anybody in 1995 was, you know, 15 going up that ladder of asking questions. How many 16 bundles? How many bundles are stuck?
17 You know, everybody was playing around 18 with word games and licensing games and stuff like 19 that and not getting -- how come the licensee wasn't 20 required to notify the agency every time there was a 21 stuck bundle? I don't understand that, you know. I 22 really don't understand how so much of this could go 23 on without a notification.
24 And they play this notification game all 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 0the time, you know, the games you guys got going 1 between the agency and the licensees. You know, you 2 know the licensees has issues.
3 And they're not required to admit it when 4 it first happens. You play word games, delay it for 5 years before finally, you know, "Well, I've got to 6 come clean now because" something or other is going on 7 and stuff like that.
8 I still don't understand how come ever one 9 of these bundles that was stuck can come up with a 10 report going on. How come you just climbed up the 11 ladder, you know, one bundle, two bundles, three 12 bundles? 13 How come somebody couldn't look up, see it 14 in the computer, and say again, "Watch this thing 15 climb up" and be coming a bigger problem and asking 16 questions, you know, 1994, 2004, "How does this end up 17 like this?" 18 And you see this all over the agency. You 19 see this kind of behavior all in the fleet out there 20 with this. You can't -- you know, we don't correct 21 problems in the early stages. We wait until we 22 embarrass the nation when it really comes down to it.
23 Half of one barrier here is 50 percent 24 degraded. You know, you go around as 50 percent 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 1degraded. You know, who knows how much really is 1 going on there?
2 And, like I said, the work-arounds. All 3 this is is work-arounds. It's essentially a language 4 work-around, vocabulary, a phrase work-around, you 5 know. That's what this all is. And we're abusing, 6 we're really abusing, language.
7 And when we don't speak clearly and 8 precisely and when things are working, we don't speak 9 with power. You know, give you a chance. This is 10 what I think. And you just start hemming and hawing.
11 We're going to make you answer the 12 question one way or another or we'll make the 13 consequences of your actions so expensive you'll never 14 play games with us again. That's how you create order 15 in a big organization and stuff. You don't have to do 16 it on every little thing, but every once in a while 17 you've got to sit there and say -- you know, you have 18 got to bring fear into people's lives.
19 Unfortunately, that is the way we all 20 work. We have to know that occasionally we can play 21 little word games. And we might not get caught at it, 22 but in the end, one day we're going to get caught.
23 And then we're going to pay a price for it. We have 24 to have that in the back of our minds. And we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 2 going to pay an expensive price for it.
1 That's the only way we keep order in this 2 world. We don't keep order in this world by rules and 3 regulations I'm telling you because that's what we're 4 doing. 5 That's what you guys are doing. You are 6 making more rules and regulations because you are 7 afraid to use power in order to bring order in our 8 world. 9 And, you know, the older I get, the more I 10 realize, you know, you have to use power, ethical 11 power, backed by the Constitution of the United States 12 and that type of thing.
13 And the absence of power gets to where we 14 are today. We're powerless to do anything. And the 15 only thing we've got the power to do is make more 16 regulations, more procedures. We're injecting a 17 complexity into the system.
18 I don't understand why -- how people can't 19 see that it's going to end up at -- we keep doing 20 this. You've got older plants and stuff. You know, 21 they call me a prophet at times, that my ability to be 22 able to predict things -- they say I'm either talking 23 to God or my circuits in my head are all screwed up 24 and I can associate things differently than other 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 3 people, an eyeball. There's no question about it.
1 And I'm going to tell you how to do this 2 model. This is a model. All this stuff is a model, a 3 mental model, a set of behaviors that could be put in 4 the computer and essentially being a simulator and 5 stuff. 6 And this is how the new nuclear -- the 7 forthcoming nuclear renaissance is going to play out 8 with the system you've got going now. You're going to 9 build a new plant or you're going to build a couple of 10 new plants and stuff like that.
11 They're going to be just like Palisades, 12 the Palisades racks. You're going to have a eries of 13 -- you're going to have a lot of safety equipment, 14 probably more than you need.
15 It's going to really look nice on paper.
16 And it's going to be a grand idea. And it should work 17 and stuff like that. You're going to get these plants 18 built. And you're going to go into this work-around 19 accommodation mode that's going to be happier.
20 Safety systems are going to be degraded or 21 not of adequate quality or you didn't think things out 22 through before you built these plants and stuff like 23 that. And then we're going to spend the next 40 years 24 playing these work-around games because you guys 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 4didn't have the power to enforce the small 1 construction problems and lapses and stuff like that.
2 You guys was on this accommodation 3 business with defects. You know, a utility takes a 4 shortcut or doesn't spend the right money and stuff 5 like that.
6 And you're going to play -- you know, 7 you're going to make a lot of bureaucracy, but you're 8 not going to get them to change their behavior. And 9 we're going to sit there with 50 percent of the 10 equipment in the -- safety equipment in that plant 11 defective.
12 And you're going to build a tremendous 13 bureaucracy of accommodation to those defects, instead 14 of making them fix the plants in the beginning the 15 right way. That is the way I see the future. And 16 that's the way I see the future in front of us.
17 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 18 Blount. We have about five more minutes.
19 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you, sir. So we went 20 over that. I see them talking about "What are you 21 going to do with them bundles, stuck bundles? Are you 22 just going to leave them in there until 23 decommissioning?" 24 So that, like I said, fuel pool problems, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 5I mean, these are old issues, Turkey Point, Palisades.
1 God help you if you have any stuck bundles in Vermont 2 Yankee. 3 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 4 Blount. Does that conclude your comments?
5 MR. MULLIGAN: Well, a couple more 6 minutes. 7 CHAIR BLOUNT: Okay.
8 MR. MULLIGAN: A couple more seconds.
9 CHAIR BLOUNT: All right.
10 [MR. MULLIGAN] You know, a lot of people said, "Well, 11 we have nothing, the NRC has nothing, to do with 12 worrying about capacity factor." I just think your 13 risk-informed regulations basically isn't defining 14 safety. It's defining unsafety.
15 This is the kind of disorder we allow that 16 we defined as unsafety. This is the kind of disorder 17 that we allow you to come keep running these plants 18 and minimizes the expenditures of money and resources 19 on fixing problems at the emergent level.
20 So, you know, I've heard so many times "We 21 don't care about capacity factor." But you guys are 22 deep into worrying -- catering to capacity factor and 23 the power of these utilities by risk-informed 24 regulation.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 6 I suppose risk-informed regulation, on one 1 side, is good, but it also can be abused. And I think 2 in many ways, it is being abused.
3 Well, I think if anybody has any 4 questions, I am done. I thank you for this 5 opportunity, too. As I said, I know it's -- I feel 6 NRC spent a lot of time with me recently. And I want 7 you to know I appreciate it. And it's kind of 8 amazing, actually.
9 Thank you for this opportunity.
10 CHAIR BLOUNT: Mr. Mulligan, this is Tom 11 Blount. We do appreciate your passion and 12 thoughtfulness regarding issues relative to the 13 nuclear industry. And we do appreciate your 14 engagement in the process.
15 With that, I would like to ask the folks 16 here at headquarters, any questions for Mr. Mulligan?
17 (No response.)
18 CHAIR BLOUNT: Seeing none here at 19 headquarters, the region, do we have any questions for 20 Mr. Mulligan?
21 MR. LERCH: I do not have any questions.
22 CHAIR BLOUNT: Thank you very much.
23 Tanya or Eric Bowman, do you have any 24 questions for Mr. Mulligan?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 7 MS. MENSAH: No questions from Tanya.
1 MR. BOWMAN: No questions from Eric.
2 CHAIR BLOUNT: Does the licensee have any 3 questions for Mr. Mulligan?
4 MR. WEINKAM: Edward Weinkam. No, no 5 comments, no questions.
6 CHAIR BLOUNT: Thank you very much.
7 I don't believe we have any members of the 8 public on the line. Therefore, we'll proceed to 9 closure. Does the Court Reporter have any questions 10 or clarifications that you need?
11 THE REPORTER: I do have a couple. Shall 12 we go off the record first?
13 CHAIR BLOUNT: That would be fine by me.
14 Is that all right with you, Mr. Mulligan?
15 MR. MULLIGAN: Yes.
16 CHAIR BLOUNT: Great.
17 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 18 concluded at 1:55 p.m.)
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