ML20154P144

Sanitized Transcript of 830913 Closed Meeting on Mgt/ Organization & Internal Personnel Matters in Washington,Dc. Pp 1-78

ML20154P144
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Issue date:	09/13/1983
From:	NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
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References
FOIA-84-61, REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8809300125
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,,...y) Transcript of Proceed"ngs hf j

'sp, "fV/ NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION DISCUSSION OF MANAGEMENT /ORGANIZATIO!!

AND INTERNAL PERSONNEL MATTERS l

e CLOSED MEF. TING l

Exemptions Nos 2 and 6 i

1 L

Tuesday, September 13, 1983 l

4 l

1 Pages 1-78 i

3recarad by:

ANN TI? TON 8809300125 S00916 Cff!ce of tne Secteury PDR FOIA CUMMINGSB4-61 PDR m

?

1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1

NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2

3 DISCUSSION OF MANAGEMENT /0RGANIZATION AND INTERNAL PERSONNEL MATTERS 5

6 CLOSED MEETING 7

Exemptions Nos. 2 and 6 8

9 10 11 Room 1130 12 1717 H Street, N. W.

Washington, D. C.

13 Tuesday, September 13, 1983 14 Pursuant to Notice, the Commission met in closed session at 2:10 o' clock, p.m.

17 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:

18 NUNZIO PA'.L ADINO, Chai rman of the Commis s ion VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 19 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 20 FREDERICX BERNTHAL, Commissioner 21 22 23 24 25

1 O

20

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time.

The chief fault I can find on Cummings has to do '

with Hoyt and Aloot's allegation that he tried to conceal 3

the fact that he had discussed this one report with Region III and, aside from the others I don't find they are 5

problems where, I would say, he should be dismissed.

I i

I don't find them.

This is the only one that comes close 7

enough to that and I'm not sure that we have all the facts 1

8 or maybe we have as many facts as we're going to get.

S Cummings points out that, at evidence of the 10 fact that he didn't try to conceal this matter, is the 11 fact that there are asterisks showing that changes had 12 been made in the report as a result of going to the Region 13 and ottting input.

However, the evidence that Helen Hoyt 14 and Site Alcot have indicates that the asterisks were put 15 on there after he had signed off on the report.

If that's 16 the case, it does mcke me a little bit nervous.

?

l 17 However, it's the concealment that would give me 18 the problem.

I think on the matter of whether or not he 13 should go back to people he interviewed te check on the 20 adequacy of interviews, I'd say that's something we cou?4 21 speak to and could counsel him on.

l 22 I come down to where I don't think there is 23 enough in here to take action against Cummings.

Remember, 24 aside from finding no evidence of bad faith, it says, l

25 "Moreover, we cannot conclude that the conduct of senior

21 1

I-1 NRC officials with respect to the Zimmer investigation

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violate any statutory regulatory requirement' applicable to i

this agency, nor do we find any clear evidence of the intent on any employees' part to purposefully subvert the 5

Commission's regulatory or enforcement mission."

Those f

1 0

are pretty strong statements and, when they come to I

counseling him, they don't hit very hard.

They talk more fr 8

j about the telephone line, they talk, bout the hot line --

l 9

wait a minute, I'm sorry -- wrong page.

10 It says, "James Cummings, as a senior official 11 in OIA, failed to exercise the high degree of judgment l

12 which should be required of a senior Commission official.

13 We recognize that James Cumnings has no moaitoring func-l

]

14 tion over an IE investigation but, as a quasi-inspector j

15 general, he was derelict in his duty to keep OIA alert to 16 the status )f a sensitive investigation with known health, 17 safety, and criminal circumstances."

l 18 I think the points. that are made there are 1

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13 pretty well refuted by Cummings.

I'm surprised iney don't i

treatti;{4rd-h43 33 detail the one that comes out as the item of sS4

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/

to 21, concern, at least when it comes to counseling.

22 I also considered the balance between trying to t

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23 counsel Cummings in the areas thst are discussed in this 24 report or getting him better on track or just trying to go 1

j 25 out and get a new person.

I think the balance comes out i

l

i e

22 in favor of trying to keep him and ccunseling him to better effectiveness.

I also think that Bill Dircks' memo has a number k

of important, philosophical points that we ought to 5

consider, but they apply more to Stello and Keppler than I

they do to Cummings.

7 Anybody else want to go next?

8 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

I'll go next.

You did 8

pretty good until the end, Joe.

10 l COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

I don't get the oppor-II tunity 12 CHA!RMAN PALLADIN0:

I would have go last, first 13

-- whatever way.

That's the price of being the Chairman, 14 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

I'll go in the same 15 creer that you did.! agree with the point that Vic made.

16 I think we have to ssy whether we agree or disagree with 17 the principal findings that Helen H,oyt and Alcot made on' ddNes r-i 18 t h e c;Ti6 pl e,

~

13 20 21 12 23 1

2k 25

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40 i

1 2

3 4

5 6

7 8

9 to 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IS 20

1. I h

g 22

~~

~

23 InCummqngs,IagreewithJoe, I find con-24 siderably more troubling than the other two.

I'm not 25 terribly concerned about returning the phone calls and S

l

~

41 I

taking his vacation and not havir.g somebody follow up on returning phone calls to Applegate, but I'm very troubled by the reviewing with the regional people the inves-4 tigation report and the interviews and I think it's 5

important that it wasn't just the interviews that were 0

reviewed with those people but the summary of the inves-7 t i g a t i o n r e p o r t w)rfc7i w a s r e v i e w e d w i t h t h o s e p e o p l e, t o o,

8 and I find troubling Helen Hoyt's conclusion that he did 9

attempt to conceal the f act that Schnebeling had clearly 30 directed that the changes weren't to be indicated in the II report.

12 I think it was bad investigative practice.

I 13 think it was the same kind of investigative practice that 14 Cummings, himself, had criticized in the regional offices 15 in the case of Hayward Tyler and also (Narbeck).

I think 16 the supporting interviews shew just about everybody else, 17 even Schnebeling, in Cummings' offi,ce was opposed to doing 18 that -- going out and reviewing the report with the IS regional people -- and I think the fact that Cummings 20 asked Helen Hoyt for an opportunity to review this report 21. before it went to the Commission is an indication that he 22 still has a problem with that.

23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Incidentally, I wonder 1'f that comes from this M function where the audit +a.'s 24 25 reports are sent to the people that have been audited for

42 I

any comment, suggested change.

GAO does it.

2 s

COMMISSIOP ER ASSELSTINE:

I don't know, but I feel an investigatie n is fundamentally different from an audit.

I think it's a bad investigation practice.

It's 5

one thing to show somebody a transcript of an interview 0

and say, "Is this an accurate representation of what you 7

vv.te FW4v tL; $ rt ( 4 said?"

And a record review of enytning in there that is t

1Aoff

" r a r e. f.,f9 41 Y

, e r wo <

g just incorrect'::-+>*

iranscribed or reported, but 3

it's quite another tc take a summary of the report itself 10 and say, "Now I'm goi[1g to read you the report and you 11 tell me if there are inythings in there which you disagree 12 with or that you thini are wrong and ought to be changed, i

13 and then I'm going to make those changes and make sure 14 that they are not ref1!ected in the report."

15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

This is the Region IV 16 problem.

17 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

Yes.

18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Worse.

13 COMMIS$10NER ASSELSTINE:

Worse because these 20 are the people who crit icized Region IV for doing it and 4

21 yet did the same thing.

22 CHAIRMAN PALL ADINO:

But do you agree, going l

1 l

23 back and having them lo;u at what was presumed to have 14 been the testimony obta 'ned from the interview --

25 COMMISSIONER J SSELSTINE:

I don't have a problem M

O

l 43 with that but, even the"e, I think good investigating 2

practice dictates what y ou do is you make it clear to everybody that that was done and you make it clear that p

any changes that were ma de were based upon that review, 5

but I think it's pretty :l e a r, in this case, that Cummings 0

went beyond that and he nade an effort to keep it secret.

I guess my own view ca what to do about 8

Cummings, to a certain e atent, goes back to other items I

that we've already discu lsed before.

My own view is that to this is a further indica sion to me that Cummings is not Il tne right person for thi! job.

I think, when you look at 12 the Applegate F0!A reque st business, when you look at his I3 handling of our dealings with the Justice Department on 14 the Hartman allegations, the lack of documentation of 15 those oiscussions with Jus tice, ar.d when you look at this 16 report -- particula rly tho regional review of the draft 17 report -- it just reinforces my view that Cummings is not 18 the right person for that job and we ought to figure out 19 some way to move him from that job.

I just don't think he 20 ought to continue.

21 CHA!RMAN PALLADI NO:

You know, we have taken 22 action on the F0!A report, That doesn't mean we can't add 23 M a litany of things.

24 COMMISSIONER ASS ELSTINE:

That's right.

25 CHAIRMAN PALLADI N0:

We did assess, though, that i

44 1

on the audit --

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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Let's see, that one 3

isn't over.

It's not over.

CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:

To a certain extent it may 5.

not be, but we did not find great fault, or any fault, 6

"VCd f with his et'A= function which ! gather is two-thirds of 7

his job and I think a number of the reports on the inves.

8 tigations have been good reports.'

8 I took a look at this last one that OIA made 10 that seemed to me like a good report.

I'm not an expert.

II So, we've got to be careful that, again, we don't take a 12 particular 16 stance and say, well, this plus that is 13 indicative of a person that is not doing his job.

I think l

14 he does try to do his job.

I am concerned about this 15 concealment angle, I've got to admit that.

That's the

...e 16 that troubles me the most and I guess a little bit of that l

17 same worry was associated with the FOIA request.

1 18 On balance, though, you've come oown here, and 13 I've said all ! have to say.

20 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

I think that this 21

. report, particularly when viewed in light of-the other t'<o 22 items that we have been dealing with with Cummings fairly 23 recently, just reinforces my view, although I'll be ouite 24 candid and say I had that view before, Age j

25 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

But you might think 1

l 1

that's fair to cut through everything.

Water can't cut 2

us.

I COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

You can remove him to 4

a non-senst'tive SES position.

5 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0:

You say the FOIA is not I

finished.

I'd like to make sure that you're thinking the I

same thing that I'm thinking or vice versa.

I The only thing that I think micht be still ooen I

_on the F0fA admonishment is his reouest.

He never settled IO whether or not he wants these tapes.

II COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I'd like to answer that.

12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Is that what --

13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

tie l l. h e 's l e f t ooen how 14 he's coino to react to our netion and the fact that he hat 15 left it open this way. I'd find it to re#1ect had1v en 16 g

17 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:,,It wasn't just the --

18 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:

It was ouite an ursatis-15 factory response on his part..in my view, because he went 20 to war with the commission and then he said. "Well. let me 21 think about it."

He didn't_say. "I'm sorry.- I theuldn't s

22 have done that.

It was stuoid of me to de thit."

33 COMMIS$!0NER ASSELSTINE:

Tha t's richt.

He iust 24 said. "Hold my request in abeyance until I decide if I 25 want to do somethino further.

CHAIRi1AN PALLADINO:

You're thinking the same thing I'm thinking.

Okay.

I just wanted to see if there was anything more.

COMMIS$10NER ASSELSTINE:

I guess that 'inishes 5

what I want to say.

CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0:

Who wants to go next?

7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYr I agree w'ith ev.,tnina I

Jim has said.

8 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

It's your turn.

I'm the 10 most junior member.

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11 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

~

12 13 15 17 18 13 CLamings is a different matter.

I think, 49stedItss & not.sb.s ra l& ce wWta) a 20 unfortunately, Cumming,nas costroyed any cegree or 21. confidence in this room.

22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Any degree?

No, I don't 23 agree.

24 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I only say for myself.

25 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

I sure have, w

N 1

COMMISS:0HER ROBERTS:

There are too many pieces I d o n ' t t h i n k yo u c a n t a k e o.n e p a r t i c u l a r.(f<wl M h 2

here.

I think 61 A J: Judih 7

yo u d i d wri t e r -am a n d t h a t ' s ++Trt,/k+

3 but !,just think he's 4

a loose cannon, now, and without getting into the sub-5 stance of it, this stuff about -- what's the latest thine about Malsch and American Exoress?

Forcet the merits of I

that which is another issue.

I think he showed incredibly I

bad judgment but I think he's out there -- he's a loose 8

cannon.

IO CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

He's over-reacting.

II COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Of course he is.

12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

I was going to call him in 13 and counsel him on it and then I said, "Well, if I start 14 to counsel him en these things and the Commission takes a 15 stronger position, it would appear, in my ccunseling, that 16 I'm doing what the Commissicr. nants to do."

So I've been

.w 17 gun-shy, also, which may be an over-reacti*t.

That's why IB I'm anxious to get going with whatever decision we're IS going to make.

4 I

20 I think, on the over-reaction, that's where 21

. counseling could very much help.

22 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I'm not sure there is l

23 anything there to be counseled.

24 COM;4!SS10NER GILINSKY:

If he were a division 25 head somewhere, it's one thing, or if he were in charge of

0 1

handing out contracts on waste disposal, that' one thing,

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but this is an extremely sensitive position and one in 3

which a person in whom the Commission has just got to have confidence.

You know, this isn't the kind of thing you 5

decide -- you know, even if there weren't a majority for having him go, I just don't think you can keep a person in 7

a position like that unless he really has the substantial I

confidence of the Co mission.

3 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I have to say I reached 10 that conclusion but I had to be realistic.

11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

So what are you saying?

12 You think he ought to be removed?

13 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Yes, ! kind of think 14 that.

Now, how's that for a half-assed answer.

! just 15 think he's destroyed himself.

I think we gave him some 16 opportunity, but still.

17 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:

I don't know.

We dealt 18 f airly mildly with him on the other case.

13 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Oh, Victor, we don't 20 think like a career bureaucrat.

21 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:

Considering the situa.

22 tien, he could have just come in and said, "Well, okay - "

23 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

We gave him a real M h'X

(.42 24 TTln, I think.

An I wrong?

25 COMMISSIGHER GILINSKY:

Not compared to what you

I might have done.

I think he could have very easily come 2

in here and said, "Gentlemen. I acceot the criticism.

f wish it hadn't happened."

Gone around, shaking hands with everybody in the room and said, "Lock. I want to work with 5

vou."

0 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

That would have solvec 7

the problem.

I COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Sure.

For me, it would.kSC 8

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

But when he kept that last 10 sentence in there --

Il COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

No, that's not what he 12 did, b #

13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Yes, he did, sure.

14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

He then wrote a letter.

15 He threatened you; he threatened us.

He basically 16 threatened a court case and he's catherine the evidence.

17 insisted on the tanes.

18 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

It was only after you 13

_g.1] led him that he reluctantly _said. "Well. I'm still 20 willing to try b ork with you."

21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

No.

I think in my conver-gg sation with him it was a more forthricht willineness to 23 work with us.

He does take criticism very hard, as many 24 of us do.

25 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:

And he's not verv smart

50 lhl ((h 1

or else he would not have cotten himself into this situa-

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tion.

3 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

Well, that's the final indictment.

5 (Laughter.)

CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0:

Let's see.

How do I write 7

this down?

I COMMIS$10NER ROBERTS:

3 to 11 12 4

i 13 14 l

15 1

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16 17

)

18 13 Tow Cuemings -- I've given you my 20 view.

That's a whole different thing, t

21 CHA!RMAN PALLADIN0:

I was trying to write down 22 whether you felt he ought to be --

23 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I think I will reluc-24 tantly conclude that he should not continue in that 25 position for a variety of reasons, and I was not of that i

I

51 4

view prior to his last round.

CHAIR AN PALLADINO:

I think we have to be prepared to explain to him why we've reached this conclu-sion.

5 COMMISS ONER ROBERTS:

! thing so.

0 CH A! Ri1 Af PALLADINO:

As a matter of fact, !

7 think he ought to be alerted that this is the way the I

Commission is comi out and give him a chance to be I

heard.

I think we ave to do that so we don't give the 10 appearance that our actions are so summary that we don't Il give people a chance to respond.

12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Now, wait a minute.

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13 CHAIRMAN pA'LLADINO:

Now, wait a minute, Vic --

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14 because you've got a whole organization and if I, working 15 somewhere else, got the feeling that a colleague about u to y> a (I t

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16 when maybe I don't Tfie details was summarily treated.

'd

/

17 be worried.

I'd say, "If that's th,e way the Commission

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I 18 ha-ties their peisonnel problems, well, maybe this isn't a

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13 good place to work."

Anq

! do think we have to keep in 20 mind all the people we d have here and I think to treat i

21 the case equitably you ha e to hear his out.

I 22 COMMISS!0NER GIL,!NSKY:

Joe, this is a very 23 confidential Commission pc ition and, to have that posi-24 tion, you have to retain t a confidence of the Commission.

4 t( hd 25 It seems to me that it is adequate answer that you no 3

52 f.

I longer have reta< ned the confidence of the Commission, 2

Now, he is in the SES.

One of the advantages of 3

th SES is that t e managers in this agency have some flexibility in wh re they put people, and I think this is 5

a case where that ught to be exercised.

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

I'm not saying we have a 7

public meeting with Cummings, but we ought to have 8

Cummings heard.

9 COMMISSI0t ER ROBERTS:

I have a procedural 10 question.

Is there any question that we're entitled to do 11 this?

12 COMMISSION R GILINSKY:

I don't think so.

Il COMit!SSIONEi ROBERTS:

Is there any question?

14 CHA!Rf1AN PAiLADINO:

I don't think there's any 15 question.

16 COMMISSIOP: ER GILINSKY:

I thought that's what 17 you were addressing.

18 CHAIRMAN PAL A0!NO:

No, I'm talking about good, l

13 sound personnel practic to go tell a person what action i

20 we're contemplating or bout to take or are taking.

Give i

21 him a chance to tell you any other information that he 12 might feel appropriate ftr you to consider and then 23 confirm a decision.

24 COMMIS$10NER R0 ERTS:

I'm not -- if you' re m

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25 saying we ought to bring

,in here and confront him

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}

53

[

with the facts ani l say, "Now, have you got anything that's goingtochangeobrminds,"Ithinkyou'rejustgoingto dig a deeper hola CHAIRMA N PALLADINO:

You meant Cummings.

5 COMMISS IONER ROBERTS:

Cummings.

O CHAIRMA N PALLADINO:

Just because the tapes on.

I That's the least I would do.

8 COMMIS! IONER ROBERTS:

Well, ! don't have any S

problem with that Let me ask you this, I'm the sole 10 perpetrator.

If this action is taken --

11 COMMIS! !0NER BERNTHAL:

What's the action, I'm 12 sorry?

13 COMMISS IONER ROBERTS:

Proposing that we can 14 Cummings, is that not what we're saying?

15 CHAIRMA 1 PALLADINO:

Well, I don't know what you 16 mean.

We remove ! im f rom the job.

17 COMMISh NER ASSELSTINE:

It depends on what we 18 do with him, !

'k, dictates also the rights, itcDermott l

13 probably knows bett r than ! do.

If you are going to move 20 him within the agen(y and keep him in some other $ES 11

. position, it's my u erstanding you can move him without i

42 any reason at all, ay, "We ' r e j u s t n o t c o n f i d e n t wrt+r v 23 you in that position.

We want you in some other position, 24 and that's our decisi n."

We don't have to give any 25 reasons at all.

}

l

54 COMMISSIONE ROBERTS:

No explanationf I's 0" 2

COMMISSIONE ASSELSTINE:

That's right.

I t

3 W o 4Wd' think, if,y.se-p e goin<

to dismiss him from the agency and say, "There's no way we want you to continue in this i

5 agency and you're fired " then I think he does have rights i

I and I think we have to then come up with a set of specific 7

8 COMMISSIONER R( BERTS:

What does he do -- go to 3

the Merit Protection Boar d, or something?

10 NOMMISSIONER AS iELSTINE:

That's right.

11 CHAIRMAN PALLAD;NO:

I think there are several 12 ways we coul'd proceed.

On way we could do is -- I've I

13 got to leave the caveat th t I would Itko to hear him out, i

14 but them we decide we remov him from being Director of 15 OIA, we appoint an acting di ector -- it might be 4

16 Messenger, although he's more strongly audit.

I guess 17 maybe solely audit, but at led st he seems to have ex-i 18 hibited sound judgment and the audit reports are good and 13 maybe, in large part, because f him, but we have other

)

20 options as to who to put in the e, but we might move him 21 out and move Messenger acting, dnd then put Cummings 22 somewhere else.

23 Then you have to start a procedure to replace 24 Cummings.

That could take six m ths.

25 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

ould I ask a question?

i

=_

55 I

Suppose the Commissio decides to renove him from his present duties, can we turn around and say, "Here. Mr.

3 Executive Director for perations, here is an SES em-4 plcyee.

Find a spot fo him in the agency."

Can you do 5

that?

COMMISSIONER B :RNTHAL:

Sure.

7 COMMISSIONER A! SELSTINE:

Yes.

Or we can even I

pick the spot.

4 3

CHAIRMAN PALLAD NO:

We can pick the spot.

l 10 COMMISSIONER R0B RTS:

I'm sure we could,j i

11 CHA!RMAN PALLA0!!0:

I've been thinking what l

l 12 kind of spot could we put h m in?

I mentioned this one to 13 Jim.

He has primarily been in investigations.

So +1r*T 41k9 j

14 talents, presumably, are inv stigations.

l 15 COMMIS$10MER ROBERT :

How, wait a minute.

Who j

16 j

17 COMMIS$!0NER ASSELST!.E:

He's talking about i

18 Cummings.

13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

I' talking about Cummings.

2o COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

thought his background 21 was audit.

22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Well but he's also been 23 investigations and audit.

He's been critical of inves-24 tigation raports.

Let me finish.

I' trying to be 4

25 constructive.

I'm not trying to force anything down b

56 anybody's throa.

I'm open to any other suggestions, incidentally.

To mov him out of O!A; to assist in reviewing k

the adequacy of the investigations.

He would be doing 5

this for Hay 6s 11 seeing whether or not they should have 0

interviewed Arnold in addition to somebody else; or do the I

criticizing that r,ormally comes af terwards, do it before-I hand.

That could be constructive for '/en Hayes.

c f

I'm goinn on the premise we take advantage of 10 whatever his talents are and put them to use.

That's one II way to put them to se.

I'm open to aiy other sugges.

12 tions.

13 COMMIS$10N :R GILINSKY:

You're determined to get 14 yourself into troubl.

15 (Laughter.)

16 CHA!RMAN PA LADINO:

Tell me whera else you'd 17 put him.

Go on the pr mise that yo,u want to -. you've got 18 him.

You w4nt to put im to use and you want to put him 13 to use where he has tal nts.

Now, where do you come out?

to COMM!$$!ONER ILINSKY:

First of all, it seems 21 to me that Jim is going ko want to leave the -age ncy.

22 CHAIRMANPALLAd!NO:

Well, that's arother way of 23 proceeding.

24 COMMIS$10NER G!. !NSKY:

And it will take a i

25 little while and it's jusi a matter of finding a place for j

h

i 57 m

him while negotiates a job in some other part of the l

\\

Government, as he presumably will do, and I think that's perfectly re sonable.

I don't think he ought to be on the k

street.

We'l work something out.

I don't see any big 5

l problem.

He c n be special assistant to,111 Dircks, I

)

that's what he an be.

7 COMMIS IONER ASSELSTINE:

Maybe find a spot for 8

7 him doing somethi g on the administration side.

I' COMMIS$1 NER GILINSKY:

Yes, j

10 COMMISSIO ER ASSELSTINE:

Office of Admints-l Il tration.

)

12 CHA!RMAN PA LA0!N0:

I have another concern.

13 Here, he just issued a report on whether or not there Aas

)

Ik collusion at THI-2 and,\\ a short time ef terwards, we fira

(

)

15 him.

j l

16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

! wouldn't worry.

a

\\

l 17 CHAIRMAN PALLA0!,NO:

Well, I worry atout such l

18 things.

It says, "Ah ha, they didn't like that he found 13 no collusion."

j 20 COMMISSIONER GILIN KY:

Did he fin, no 11 collusion?

s 12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Yes, he found no collusion.

1 l

23 COMN!S$!0NER GILINSKY We're not firing him g

2k because he didn't find collusion I

25

'HAIRMAN PALLADIN0:

I ppreciate that.

I say L

58 I

1 you've got o --

C0 MISSIONER GILINSKY:

No one.

i ren going to 3

COMM SSIONER ASSELSTINE:

.er.

5 CGhMI SIONER ROBERTS:

Oh, I don't know.

I would not think r., thing, today.

7 COMMISS ONER BERNTHAL:

If he had found collu-O sion and we fired in.

9 CHAIRMAN ALLADINO:

Well, either way.

10 COMMISSIO P'GILINSKY:

No.

II CHAIRMAN P LLADINO:

I am.

COMMISSIONE ASSELSTINE:

I guess my problem,. b 12 j

ave #W 2%

I3 th e mo re I t h i n k adra#e g *.h e 01 b u s i n e s s, i s, I g u e s s, t h s I4 roet causes of a lot o.,my concerns about Cummings are in 15 the iavr tigations side..1 I think you're going to create 16 more problems by putting him in OI.

17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Is it possible to break 1B up --

19 COMMISSIONER R0B RTS:

To do what?

20 COMMISSIONER GILI SKY:

Break up OIA.

21 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN :

And make it audit and put 22 all investigations under Ben Hayes.

That was another --

4 23 f!

COMMISSIONER GILIN KY:

Well 24 COMMIS!IONER ROBERT :

But you've got to have an 25 internal oversight.

h

r 59 V

C0!1NISSIONER GILINSXY:

I wouldn't do that.

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Then I wouldn't break up 3

OIA.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

That doesn't help you, 5

then.

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

But I could see, if you 7

divide O that it has a section which is externally.

8 That y 4d r k_, __ _.-... - --

S COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

It seems to me you don't 10 have to cross every "t" and dot every "1."

Basically, the 11 important thing is if, in fact, the Commission doesn't 12 heve confidence in Cummings, he cught to be told that.

I 13 think, as a result of that, he is not going to want to 14 stey here.

He'll want to look for another job, it 15 seems to me that, once that has been said to him, ught 16 not to continue in his investigating role but ought w be l '/

in someother capacity, perhaps, doing some special job for 18 however long it takes for him to move.

He can be attached 13 to Bill Dircks' office, he can be attached somewhere else.

2o I don't think it's a big problem.

He'll get his salary.

21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

What are your views?

22 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

Nobe

's asking.

23 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Well, asking.

24 (Laughter.)

25 CriAIRMAN P ALLADINO:

I think we ought to have 1

e 60 your views.

COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

I thought I night get away with it, b

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

No, not a chance.

5 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

I feel like I've just 0

walked into a group of people who have reading a Dickens' 7

novel for three years and followed every character and I 8

just picked up the book.

9 I certainly don't know the background of all 10 this as well as the rest of you do.

I have a question.

I 11 gather, in the case of Cummings, this is not the straw 12 that broke the camel's back, or is it?

Or is it the two 13 by four that broke the camel's back?

14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

You say you don't 15 COMMISSIONEA ROBERT.':

Well, I don't know.

It j M

'V

16 depends on how you look at it.

17 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

is.Tt~ he straw that t

18 broke the camel's back or the twt by four?

Is there 3 13 history of difficulties with him?

I gather there is.

20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

The only history I know of 21

, is the FOIA request where we took action.

Then comes this 22 one.

Then, interlaced with the FOIA request, is his 23 reaction that gives us some cause for concern.

And those 24 are the three things I would know about.

25 I d n't think it's either the straw or the two

e 61 I

by four that broke the camel's back.

\\

COMMICSIONER BERNTHAL:

But something in be-tween, though.

If it were this incident taken alone, then 4

I probebly would, just f rca reading the materia,ls to the I

extent I have, he somewhat more lenient, but it clear to 0

me that it's not just this incident and, therefore --

7 look. I'm largely going to accept your management judgment 8

on that, I think, Joe,'

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 12 23

(

24 25 l

l

,o 71 I

2 3

4 5

6

)

7 8

S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 CHAIRMAN PALLA0!NO:

L6t me find out what you want to do on Cummings because

'm doing more of what you C

72 1

2 want to do than what I would want to do.

3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Maybe we better talk to 4

Cummings.

5 (Laughter.)

6 CHAIRMAN PAlt.ADINO:

.I think I've always repre-7 sented the Commission as honestly as I could, but I would 8

propose, first, to discuss with Dircks the fact that this 9

would be an action where we would turn him over to him and to so he can think about it.

That was one thing.

11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Now, wait a minute.

I 12 would not discuss this with Dircks.

We should --

13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Well, if we' re going to 14 shift --

15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

No, no, no.

First, 16 we've got to talk to Cummings.

This is not an action i n

/YuT 17 which Dircks has any say, f5

.q A 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

He doesn't have any say 19 except toat we are going to give him the problem, i

20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

It's not a problem.

21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

We need a sequential one.

I think step one is tel.N1 Cummings that he no longer enjoys 22 svi apn the confidence offtEe Commission.

Is that not an accurate 23 24 portrayal?

9 25 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

That's right.

i

,-----m w-

73 1

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Does that mean as of that 2

day or is it the roment I tell him that he's no longer 3

Director or do I tell him the Commission would be willing 4

tomeetwtthhimtohearanyadditionalremarkshem'h4t '

5 have to make and, depending on the results of that meet'ing, 6

b we woulo confirm this position, if that is what still main tain gf d 2 8

COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:

He seems like a pretty I"

Y confrontational guy.

10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

He may or may not.

I II don't know.

12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

But'what do you want me to I3 tell him?

A's of that moment, he is no longer the Director I4 of OIA or would you be willing to hear him?

I think.we 15 ought to hear him.

16 COMMISSIGHER ROBERTS:

I have no objection to 17 hearing him.

18 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

I'm willing to hear 19 him, I guess.

to COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I don't think it's going 11 to accomplish anything, 11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

We can do it in a matter of 23 a couple of days.

24 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:

Well, I think you ought 25 to tell him that he doesn't enjoy the confidence of a l

74 e

l 1

majority of the Commission.

The Commission would like him 2

to. step down but would like to talk to him -- or, if he would like to talk to the Commission, the Commission would 4

b e pl ea s ed to tal k wi th h im.ctbOtt, if,

5 COMMISSI0f!ER BERNTHAL:

Leave him the option.

6 CHAIRMAN pALLADINO:

Yes, I would propose we 7

leave him the option.

8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

And I would also say 9

that what we cor. template is him staying on in the agency 9 94 in some other capacity until he finds a suitable +4 h;., ? " f that's fine, and if he wanted to move on, that's okay, too.

I3 CHAIRMAN pALLADINO:

All right.

Then I'm going

=

p to tell him that.

Again, I'll probably write it all,out.

15 tiot because I would read it but because, having writ. ten it..

16 m&s out, i d o n ' t een-t h e w o rd s.

37 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

And there is no intent 18 to do him in personally, or anything like that, but the 3 v'rk 13 situation has reached the point where we don't feel he can 20 occupy that position.

- 21 22 23 24 25

76 1

CHAIRMAN PALLA )!NO:

I'm not running away.

I'm 2

just want to give a thou ght that I made a commitment to 3

give,.in a weak moment.

4 COMMISSIONER F.0BERTS:

Woul M that be easier 5

for you?

6 CHAIRMAN PALLA DINO:

What's that?

7 COMMISSIONER R BERTS:

Would that be easier for' 8

you?

s

\\

CHAIRMAN PALLADENO:

Well, I was thinking of 0

writing these things out.

But then I come back Friday and we have two meetings and I wat hoping to leave as soun as 12 the 1:30 meeting was over.

I3 COMMISSIONER BERRT4AL:

It looks like you've got to do it, Jim.

15 C0ltMISSIONER ASSE STINr-Not me.

16 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0!:

No, I will do it by Monlay.

\\

17 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Look, Joe, I'm not 18 volunteering, don't misinterp et that.

19 CHAIRMf,N PALLADINO:

I would do it by Monday.

20 COMMISSIONERGILINSK]':

You ought to do it 11 sooner.

In fact, you ought to.do it today.

22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

ell, maybe could do it 23 by tomorrow morning.

24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Well, these things just 25

77 i

\\

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

The best I could do is 2

possibly tomorrow morning, if I get out of here soon.

3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Well, tomorrow morning 4

\\'

is fine.

5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Maybe I can.

Maybe I can 6

at least talk to Cummings.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

That's whc w:'re e::.i,;

m gal)y 4tc Isu p 0MQ 4 I*

COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:

That's right.

10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

If I, for some reason, II can't do it tomorrow morning, you'll know.

I don't know 12 if I'll have time to tell you what I'm going to say, but I3 I'll tell you what I said.

14 (Laughter.)

15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

And it will 'be alo.ng the 16 lines you indicated.

17 COMMISSIOMER GILINSKY:

I hope the result is the 18 same.

19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

bh,yes.

Anything more thatweshouldtouchonthisaftk,rnoon?

20

\\

21 (No response.)

s 22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

I need a vote to withhold 23 the tape.

S

\\.

24 (Chorus of ayes.)

25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:

Sa/ it loud enough so the s

W

78 I

tape can hear it.

.)

2 (Cho us of ayes.)

3 COMMI SIONER BERNTHAL:

Unanimous.

4 CHAIRM N PALLADINO:

All right.

Thank you.

Why 5

don't we stand ad urned.

6 (Whereupo, the foregoing meeting was adjourned 7

at 3:50 o' clock, p.m.

8 9

10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

~

22 23 24 25 1

I