ML22230A193
| ML22230A193 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 04/19/1978 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| References | |
| Tran-M780419 | |
| Download: ML22230A193 (1) | |
Text
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
PUBLIC MEETING BRIEFING ON REACTOR LICENSING SCHEDULES Place - Washington, D. C.
Date - Wednesday, 19 April 1978 Pages 1-34 Telephone:
(202 ) 34 7-370 0 ACE - FEDER-U REPORTERS, INC.
Official Reporters
.d.A.4. North Capitol Street Washington , D.C.20001 NAT]ONWIDE COVERAGE* DAJLY
DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on April 19, 1978 in the Commission's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., Washington, D. C. The meeting was open to public attendance and observation. This transcript has not been revie~*1ed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general i nfomationa 1 purpose:;.
{\s provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or infon~al record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necess3.ri ly reflect fi na 1 determinations or beliefs. No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or 2.rg:,ment
,conta,ined herein, except as the Commission may authori.ze..
1 UNITED S'l'ATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 5
PUBLIC MEETING 6
7 BRIEFING 8 ON 9 REACTOR LICENSING SCHEDULES 10 11 12 Room 1130 13 1717 H Street, N. W.
Washington, D. C.
14 Wednesday, 19 April 1978 15 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 10:20 a.m.
16 BEFORE:
17 DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 18 PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner 19 RICHARDT. KENNEDY, Commissioner 20 VItTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 21 PRESENT:
- 22 23 24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
E. CASE R. DE YOUNG L. GOSSICK 25
lA
. 1 R . BOYD 2 J. KELLEY 3 H. SHAPAR 4 J. YORE 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12
- 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
- 22 23 24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25
164 .O I. I P R O C E E D I N G S 2 jwb CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We are meeting by way of a 2 briefing, rather than a m*eeting, this morning.
3 COMMISS.IONER KENNEDYs It was advertised as a 4 meeting, though;_ right.?
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIEs Yes.
6 ~OMMISSIONER KENNEDY: -I guess we proceed just as 7 if it were.
8 MR.* KELLY: I think that has been the practice 9 in many events +/-or the purpose of keeping a transcript.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRI£1 We will keep a transcript, and
.11 people can see .what is going -on.
12 MR. GOSSI-CKs We are here ,to have a briefing on 13 rea~tor licensing schedules. Roger Boyd will do the l?riefing.
14 Go ahead, Roger.
\
15 MR~* BOYD: Let me asks How slow, or fast; do you 16 ~ant_ this? If yQu are pressed for time; I can go faster 17 than I might other.wise do
- 18 ..CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: J have already crowded the
.19 front end of yo.ur schedule a _little bit. If you can manage 20 by = 00, why that would be good.
21 MR. BOYD1 That is more than enough time.
22 Let me first hit - -
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That-'s the nicest thing you 24 have ever said.
25 (Laughter.)
164 .. 01 .2 3 jwb CHAIRMAN HENDRIE1 He promises easily.
2* ( 1=,aughter. >
3 MR. G0SSICK-1 It depends on the questions, doesn-'t 4 it?
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE1 We-'ve got to watch him on 6 .details.
7 .MR. BOYD,: Let me first hit the highlights of 8 things we have done so far in April.
9 Dn April 1st, we issued the full power license 10 to N.orth Anna Unit I, so the licensing proceeding on that \
.11 is .complete. It is indicated .in the paper.
12 To things not indicated on the paper that happened 13 since we went to press, we r.ece:.ived decisions on Marble Hill 14 Units land 2, WPPSS 3 and 5. They are the first p.lants 15 .on the constru.cti-on permit list~
16 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Has somebody got the paper with 17 them1 1 guess I didn't bring it.
18 (Handing document to Commissioners.)
19 .MR. B0YO1 WPPSS 3 and 5, construction permits were 20 issued .on 4/11 in Marble Hill, the CP was issued on April 4th~
21 Co.nsequently, two o:f the things _;_ one .of the things the 22 schedule slip shows for WPPSS 3 and 5, we are awaiting the 23 Boar.cl decision. In fact, the s.ta.ff filed, I guess, the last 24 ,of the information on something like the very - very early 25 in the month. The Board1 ~ decision came down very shortly
164.0l.3 4 Jwb thereafter; Either that_night, or the next morning, we I e 2 issued the constru.c+/-ion permit. I believe it was that night.
3 There are~* however, some slips indicated on the 4 ,chart - on the supplemental chart that I have enc 1-osed with 5 the paper - that occurred during March~ And the situation 6 I have indi~ated in LWAs, CPs, DLs; and Pr~liminary Design 7 Authori tiess 1 LWA has slipped one month; that is Black 8 Fox.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIEa What-'s up~ there2 What-'s up:?
10 .MR. BOYDa We 11 ', we are awaiting the Board JI decisi.on. However, in light of the recent Commission ruling 12 on Table S-3,' the staff )'Ii 11 have -to go back to the 13oard, as 13 .we see it, and fi_Le all of the ~ppropriate inf.orrnation, so 14 that the Board can rec.onsider.
15 ,COMMISSI-ONER KENNEDYa How long will that take?
16 MR: BOYD: We are trying to get~ schedule on all 17 of the cases involved. For only Black Fox, it would not 18 take too long.* We are getting together to .find 6µ.t. Just 19 what the staff. impact is-on_doing all of these thlngs.
20 I must say, when a'decision comes down like that, 21 the first thing yoll_ have to do is s*ee how many cases are 22 affected, and allocate the work. Invariably, *there are very 23 few people who *do tl')is particu1ar thing. So there wi 11 be 24 a consirlerable --
25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Is that the sort of thing
7164 .O l .4 5 jwb that ought to be examined, in light of the President-' s 2 statement on the need for regulatory agencies to consider the 3 cost impact of decisions of that kind, along w.ith the other 4 questions? Could you give us advice~- in this regard, be.fore 5 we make decisions of that kind?
6 1 We _ought to get some impression of cost so we 7 know what we have decided.
8 MR.' CASEs I will defer to the Gene:ra1 Counsel.
9 MR. KELLEY: .Certainly, impact on staff is an 10 appropriate thing to take into account when you decide what
.l l y.ou are going to do. I think, informa*11y, that is usually 12 done.,
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Input, so that at least we 14 can make the note that w.e todk it into a.ccount, and recognize
\,
15 it when we make the decision. Here, y.ou say we maybe didn-'t.
16 If you havenYt told us yet what it is, obviously 17 we couldn't have, is my point.
18 MR. CASEs I think it is fair to say that .NRR did 19 not concur in the course of action recommended because of 20 that consideration.
21 MR. SHAPAR: That was for a limited aspect of it:
22 I think your disagreement w*as not with the basic 23 re.commendation, it was with regard to cases that were 24 pending before the Appeals Board.
25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I-'m sorry. *r didn-'t mean to
r I 64. 0 I. 5 6 jwb interrupt that much. You are now pursuing this to rind out
- 2 what the impact is1 3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let*' s s:ee. We said: Where 4 permits have issued, with regard to the S 5 MR. GOSSICK: ThatJs my understanding.
6 MR; CASE: Unle3s someone raises a question, as 7 I understand it.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If someone wants to challenge, 9 they c.an petition under --
10 MR~ CASE: 2.206 *
. 11 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 206.?
12 MR. SHAPAR: That would be considered, but the 13 license would be .c.ontinued :until -
14 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: .For those that are in process, 15 and for which permit has not issued.
16 MR~ CASE1 Or an LWA.
17 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Or an LWA. Then it gets cranked 18 back into the procedure. So you are going to have another one 19 .of those widespread-impact situations.*
20 COMM*ISS !ONER KENNEDY1 The reason for my question, 21 I was struck by the starkness of some analyses that suggest 22 that, for a bi 11 ion do lla.r inv.estment plant, a de lay of a 23 year is $100 million. You know, $100 million is a .whole lot 24 of money, to me, anyway. I realize, to the government it may 25 not be much, but after all, Me pay for it sooner or later.
164.0l.6 7 jwb More importantly, I was strutk by the notions 2 that the President so rightly put forward recently, that 3 inflation is not made up of a handful of little things like 4 firm prices; it is made up .of an enormous range of impacts 5 on the economy, and not the least -0f which perhaps is the 6 effect of regulatory decisions which introduce substant-ial 7 new costs. which ultimately are borne by who? Either the 8 taxpayer, or the rate-payer. And it turns -0ut, .when you get 9 to that fellow, he is both of them.
10 That obviously is another cost in *the econ,omy.
11 Well -- So it seems to me that thatJs something we ought to 12 be focusing a iittle bit more attention on.
13 MR. KELLEY: I would like to mention one thing 14 in connection with S-3, and the impact. Without reference 15 to any particular case, I had a call from Al Rosenthal 16 the other day, saying that he had read the S-3 paper, and 17 he wanted to be .sure it says, in e_f_fect, that 1 icensing 18 boards look at it, and appeals boards look at it.
19 Alan wanted to know whether that affected his 20 p.ower to remand, and he wanted somebody else to look at it.
21 We told him that we did not read it as precluding him from 22 remanding. He said he is too busy to hold hearings on this 23 issue, or maybe you could get some work sent back to you, 24 Jim.
25 MR. SHAPAR: He indicated to me that if it would be
164.01.7 8 jwb a remand case, he would probably be rec.ommending, i.f he has 2 the time, that it be done by the appeal board, rather than 3 by remand.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Jt,1st now, Jim --
5 MR. KELLEY: You can .certainly recommend. It 6 seems to me that, to the extent you have the presentation, 7 it is the same in various cases. He may not see that as 8 such an awesome task, but I dorr't know. He has simply 9 warne-d me that he may be disposed to remand.'
10 .COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I think it is something l1 wo.rth keeping in mind .and watching,' because it is going to 12 get worri5ome; at some point. When are we going to get some 13 idea how long this proc~i~ is going to t~ke1 14 MR * .CASE: .Certainly, by the next month's briefing.
15 I hope I can have it within a couple of weeks.
16 MR. BOYD: There is onl1y one other critical .case, 17 and that is Jamesport, which is affected by the same thing.
18 Now Perkins, following 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Is there anything else from 20 Jamesport?
21 MR. BOYD: Not to my ~nowledge. I guess I 22 understand that we were awaiting the decision until such 23 time as this S the board was ready to issue a decision 24 in January; and the applicant asked that it not be issued 25 because of the new load forecast. This was at the request
164 .o I. 8 .9 jwb of the applicant.
2 Long Island Lighting Company has pushed back 3 their dates considerably.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why in the wo.rld would the 5 applicant reque.st that the damn .thing not - that a decision 6 not be made1 7 MR. YORE: Based on new load forecasts. They 8 have a completely new set .of criteria for -
9 .MR. CASE: The present record on this point is 10 no longer c,orrect, I assume.
. 11 _MR.* YORE: That-'s right
- 12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE-: Why doesn't he tak:e the permit 13 and do what he has to do with the plant2 14 MR. SHAPAR: He sort of has an Obligation, under 15 current Commission policy, to provide current information 16 that might throw a rlifferent_Tight on information that has 17 already been submitted - a board notification question, 18 under McGuire.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE-: Well, he .can certainly submit 20 what he perceives as adjusted load forecasts, and probable 21 on-line times f.or the plant. Did he go beyond that and 22 specifically request that the board hold its decision -
23 MR. YORE: I took the call from their lawyer -
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That surprises me.--
25 MR. YORE: - a Guy Hutchinson -
164.01 .9 10 jwb CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:- HeJs got Bn obligation to 2 turn the information in. It seems to me, if I was running
.3 Long Island Light, I would like to go ahead and say that 4 in spite of that, I want to issue ---- if you are ready to 5 issue, unless you think the board - you, the board - feel 6 that the information is s.o fundamental that it is required 7 to reconsider.
8 MR. SHAPAR1 .One other possibility would be* the 9 fear about the initial decision perhaps not surviving, by 10 the appeal board, plus information that is publicly available,
. 11 in turn, should be factored into the decision
- 12 _This is only speculation.
13 MR.* YORE: The applicant-'s submission came in and 14 said that they are slipping their .operating dates from 15 November 1984 and ""86, to the summers o.f ., 88 and ., 90, because 16 of the* new load fa.recast
- 17 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: You got a request in January 18 from Long Island saying there is some new information, and 19 don*'t issue a decision, please.?
20 What does the board do, then?
21 MR; ~lRE: They ask the parties for c6mment on 22 this~* and the Gounty .of Suffolk, which is the intervenor, 23 filed a supplemental argument requesting that the .CP be 24 denied. The final response was filed by the staff .on 25 April 7th, with reference to this.
164.01.10 .I l jwb CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, this all paces along
- 2 3
4
. and doesn't seem to hurt .anybody. It allows Suffolk and the staff and everybody else to be re.asonably leisurely about their _fi.lings and the applicant an't here hurt.
5 He has to hold the whole thing up. And about 8 months 6 from now, I will be answering another letter from the GAO 7 saying, in the Jamesport c.ase, the licensing board diddled 8 around from being ready to issue a decision in January, and 9 it got to be May and nothing came -0ut, and letJs se you 10 explain that, Hendrie, and numerous people in the Congress J1 will repeat that question.
-- 12 13 14 I must say --
COMMISSIONER KENNED.Y:1 Notify those people in Congress that the applicant requested that it be held up.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: you get the sort of overall 16 blasts, and then you go back and want to talk about the 17 detail, and nobody will _lis.ten to it~' It is like getting 18 ~harged with something in the evening paper, and when you l9 go back with the particulars, and they .wi 11 maybe give some 20 nod to your information two weeks later in the back pages, 21 and it doesn't cons.titute an effective answer in the public 22 opinion arena.
23 I don't know, Jim. . I think we are going to have 24 to think about things like boards in circumstances .like 25 that stomping around and issuing statements saying this
164.01 *. 11 12 jwb board was ready to go, this case was ready for decision,
- 2 3
4 be it known to all parties that here come the applicants, or whoever 1 stalling the whole thing;
.MR. YORE: We documented our own re.cord .on this.
5 I took the call from the attorney, because the chairman of 6 the board had another case that day. So I got it directly *.
7 This is the law firm in Richmond that represents Long Island 8 Lighting Company.
9 We understand you are ready to issue the decision, 10 and he said, "hold -0ff.~ And we did:
JI ,CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: W.e-' 11 get a chance at one -.of
- 12 13 14 the work~hops at that seminar, I hope, to hold with you tolks that we can kick this around a 1 i ttle bit -
aspect, you kn.ow:
this sort of The agency is ready to go, and the other 15 par.ties want to .fiddle around with it, and thatJs .fine. But 16 I-' 11 be .damned i.f I want to have to be explaining this blow 17 by blow in answer to a set of broad accusations down the line 18 that the boards aren*'t acting briskly, and so on.
19 MR; SHAPAR: This is the easy case, in terms of the 20 answer to be given. The harder case is when the case is ready 21 for a.decision, and new information is funneled in.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And then the staff puts it in,
- 23 24 25 or whatever. Okay, onward.
.MR. BOYD: Perkins is essentially the ~ame situation; we are making a iittle progress. In Perkins, I
164.01. 12 13 jwb understand S-3 was a contention, and the board in the last
\
2 few .days came down with an order setting May 16th as the ~ate 3 for reopening the hearing on the S-3 question.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Is it just S-31 5 MR. BOYD: Yes; radon, yes, the only thing.
6 MR. CASE: That-' s the only thing that-'s left open.?
7 MR. BOYD: Tha.t-'s the only thing in the .order. I 8 assume it is the ~nly thing left open
- 9 .COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How long -
10 MR. YORE: This is another cass where the board
.1 I was ready to issu~ a decision in January, and DVke Power _came
- 12 I3 14 in and deferred it, two units by three years, and one unit by four years,' because .of new load pr.ejections.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Did they then request that 15 *we not issue the license?
16 .MR. YO.RE: That-'.s right, because .of the new issue 17 ~f need for power
- 18 .MR. BOYD: And they also - they already had ,CP 19 permits on the Cherokee plants. This is part of the Duke 20 six-pack.
21 .MR. YORE: The board is going ahead and holding 22 a hearing on May 16th, and trying to clear it up. They hope 23 to have it in one or two days in Washington - the hearing 24 itself.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And Pilgrim.?
164 .O l
- 13 14 jwb MR. BOYDs In the matter of Pi.lgrim, there is
- 2 3
4 some outstanding information required on financial qualificatfons, where the applicant has indicated i t is going to take him until May to put the information together.
5 We delayed the proceeding accordingly, and Bre expecting a 6 hearing in June.
7 That, in turn, has delayed the issuance of the 8 construction permit from June until October.
9 MR~ YOREz This is the case that is on appeal.
JO The board denie~ the application .for the LWA. That is on
.I 1 appeal to the Appeal Board right now: If they remand it,
- 12 13 l4 then the board can issue an LWA.
then it will proceed to completion~
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If they uphold the board, What is the problem .W:ith the 15 .financial qualifications2 l6 MR. YOREz Jt is not Bos.ton Edison, as I understand 17 it. They have a lot of other utilities that are co-partners l8 with them. They just havenJ't gotten the in.formation ready.
19 I understand they are not going to have it ready in May. We 20 got the word yesterday they will not have their financial 21 information ready *...
22 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What-' s wrong with them? They
- 23 24 25 ar_e big boys up there.
.MR. BOYD:
They know what is required.
The problem has been, of course, in New England a large number of utilities, having very small
. I
I 64. 0 I
- J 4 15 jwb pieces, and by the way we do business, you have to .look at
- 2 3
4 the financial qualifications . o.f each and every outfit for that percentage, whatever it is.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Which would be a problem 5 for us if we had the information, but .we don't have the 6 information.
7 MR. BOYD: It is als.o a problem ge.tting the end #I 8 informa+/-ion.
beg #2 9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: They must have known they were 10 going +/-o have to put it up long ago.
11 MR. BOYD: Is there any indication of .cha,nges in
- 12 13 14 percentage?
MR. YORE: I 9on-'t know; MR. VASSALLO: There are some changes in 15 percentage.
16 MR. BOYD: That usually has an_ impact on it. One 17 guy is going to take 5 percent, and then he ~hanges to 3.2 18 percent.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But he was still on the list 20 in the beginning, and he is still on the list now. Somehow, 2] I would expect this to get thrown up in' the review process, 22 rather than late in the hearing.
- 23 24 25 percentages.
MR. CASE:
MR. BOYD:
Apparently, they changed the ownership ThatJs right.
164. 0 I. l-5 16 jwb MR. VASSALLO: Look, we already went through
- 2 3
4 f inane ial once, and it was okay. But during the inter.vening months, and. almost years, things have changed, and these percentages have changed. And also, they lo6k at when they 5 need the power. It is kind of tied together.
6 , They made public announcements ,of the fact that -
7 ~f the p~ediction of when they _needed power, and the financial end #1 8 so it is this new information, but it had been done once beg #2 9 be.fore.
10 .COMMISSIONER KENNEDY-: The nice thing about this 11 is that if we just continue to lengthen the .licensing
- 12 13 14 process long en.ough, the license can never issue at all, because there will always be ~new informa+/-ion.~
hasn't been written over the centuries, day by day.
History 15 MR. CASE: That is a problem - these long 16 reviews.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I am just surprised that it 18 comes up that strongly:
19 MR; BOYD: There has been a solution, in some cases 20 in the past, where the major utility -comes forward and says~
21 Look, if all of the.se pieces don't .fall together, I will take 22 them, and I can show that I can do it. Then, the problem
- 23 24 25 goes away. That is not the case here, and in other cases it has not been the case.
It does take months to get things sorted out.
164 .0 I. 16 - .17 jwb *1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How does somebody build a
- 2 3
4 1 000-megawatt coal plant.?
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: .. With difficulty, these days -
not quite as much as they hava here --
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I would hope not.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: but it is increasing, 7 rapidly.
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY-: It sure is going to get 9 cold one of these days, and dark.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And dark. We-"11 have to go to
.I I bed early, and rise with the sun.
- 12 13 14 COMM1 SSONER KENNEDY1 That might .be an advantage, i.f there is a little less light available, fewer will have time to read all this trivia, and that ~ill get these l5 machinations brought .under some sort of rational control.
16 MR. SHAPAR: Well, then the rum consumption will 17 go up.
18 .COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Only if there i:s enough 19 power to run the bottling plant.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: .I have got a place along the 21 south shore of Long Island, Howard, if you ~an get a boat, 22 why I can see .w.e might keep ourselves ahead o:f the game 23 in years to come; 24 (Laughter.)
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, onward.
7164.0l .J 7 18 jwb .MR. BOYD: The situation in Yell.ow Creek, we are I
I 2 in the process -- we finally, I guess, now have all of the 3 outs.tanding information we need from the applicant .TVA. We 4 have maneuvered from 20 open issues .in the time of the ACRS 5 down to just 4. We have got the information, I think, on the 6 4. It has taken an extra month, though, but I think we should 7 be moving to wrap up this review and go on into the hearing.
8 Our view is, we can-' t go j nto the hearing with 9 open issues. We have to take the time to get them resolved, 10 and it has taken some time on behalf of the ,appltcant to ge.t
.1 I the nec.essary information to us.
- 12 13 14 CHA I RMAN HENDRIE:
the staff got a position on them1 MR. BOYD:
When you say .u.open issues , .u has Jn most cases, the staff has a 15 position - and I don-'t say this facetiously at all - in 16 order t9 specify that you do need sti.11 more information.
17 In other wor,ds, if it can. be .done this way, this way, or 18 this way, to find ~ut which way they are going to do it~
19 They have to supply the information and say: nkay, we are 20 going to do this.
21 MR. CASE: But they do have an LWA recently issued.
22 MR. BOYD: Yes.
23 Black Fox, there is a three-month construction 24 permit delay. The applicant has just come in with a number 25 of design changes. He has modified his control room, changed
164.01.lS 19 jwb his QA organization. We have some problems in the .Mark I II
- 2 3
4 containment review. This results in a conglomeration of time in getting the inf,ormation and getting it reviewed.
It amounts t.o a slip of about three months.*
5 This would not be a problem if we can get the 6 Black Fox LWA proceeding through and completed.
7 MR. CASE: What is the'status' of that oneJ The 8 LWA proceeding.?
9 MR.* BOYD: That is the on:e where we have to go 10 back on S-3.
.J 1 MR; CASE-: Maybe *
- 12 13 14 MR ..
issue a decision.
YORE:
approximately two .we~ks.
J don-'t. know. The board is ready to They can have it in about two weeks -
15 MR. CASE: I .think the .Commission has required us 16- to go back.*
17 iR. YORE1 This has to be decided, and they are 18 ready to issue a decision on Jamesport. It is fin"ished.
J9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Ready to go on.?
20 .MR. BOYD1 Focusing on* Erie~- a one-month delay. It 21 is a staff impact p,roblem. In two of our branches, the 22 pe.ople working on Erie have not been able to get o_n it. They
- 23 24 25 have been working on the Diablo Canyon, as a matter of fact, and it has resulted in a month's delay. Particularly,* this involves our structural people, and our power systems people.
164.01.19 20 jwb We are still targeting, trying to get an SER
- 2 3
4 out on Erie on July 1st. As a matter of fact, the Erie people are coming in to see me this afternoon * . And one of the things they are going to complai.n about is the 5 difficulty they have in trying to see .the _light at the 6 end of the tunnel.
7 But in fact, we are - resource impa.ct is there.
8 And we can't put the people in two places at once. We have 9 put Diablo ,Canyon ahead. It is an operating plant, and of 10 course we do have considerable problems with the seismic l1 ,design.
12 I can immediately jump down the next line and 13 have to say, almost without breaking stride, that we have 14 increased the schedule for .completing Dlablo, because of 15 the n~cessity to clean up all of the open and controyersial 16 matters on our seismic reevaluati6n.
t7 As we now foresee cDiabLo, we hope to get to the 18 ACRS in June. Invariably, there will ~till be some open 19 issues at that point, and we hope to clean those up by 20 September. So that, fbm a target point -Df view, we would 21 ho.pe to get into a ..hearing by September. Anq as a matter 22 of fact, we are now targeting f.or Diablo a decision, perhaps,
- 23 24 25 by December *
\
Hatch 2 and Zimmer are construction delays.
2 is only a one-month delay. They are almost .complete.
Hatch They
164.01
- 20 21 jwb 1 are .having a few problems, I guess, with installation of
- 2 3
4 snubbers, and it is ta.king them slightly longer.
you may have seen in the paper that they are touting In fact, Hatch 2 as getting .done ahead of sche.dule and,. unde.r _.cost.
5 We had th_ought that they were going to be *Complete 6 by around mid-April. Jt. now turns out, to .:finish the snubbers 7 problem, it will be sometime in May.
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY.: Have you received a letter 9 from anybody on that.?
10 MR; BOYD.: .No.
.1 l C.OMMISSIONER KENNEDY.: 1 keep receiving these 12 le t-ters on the .other side commenting on the fact that here 13 these.things are so late, and so much over cost.
14 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: J am not sure that we get much 15 credit for whatever on-schedule and within-budget condition 16 Hatch 2 may have achieved.
l7 I thif.lk .we may have .done our .level best, as .we l\8 always do.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I w*as~t thinking -
20 MR. CASE: We should get some credit for getting 21 the licensing --
I 22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY.: I was~t .cthinking in terms 23 of an acolade for the Commission, but here is a rematkable 24 circumstance, as contrasted to all the other letters we keep 25 getting.
l 64.0 I .2 l 22 jwb -CHAJRMAN HENDRIEa Finally, ,a n.ormal plant?
- 2 3
4
,COMMI SSI.ONER KENNED.Ya would take the time -
to say: Look at this.
Ye.s. And that someone that someone should write a letter 5 MR. BOYD: Hatch 2 had a novel .fuel design which 6 ~e had to put considerable resources on +/-or the first time 7 -0n this review. We did it at a speed to ~eep up with 8 construction.
9 -CHAIRMAN HENDRIE& .Good~
10 Wha.tJs happened to Zimmer1
_1 1 .MR. BOYD-: Zimmer, it is taking J.onger t.o build the
- 12 13 14 plant. They have Just announced about a nine-month construction delay. In our review about a month ago, where .we were -comparing what the applicant says with what I5 we think, there was an anomaly of about a year or nine 16 months, and we thought our date was probably a better one 17 than theirs. And before we had time to discuss it with 18 them, they called and told us their date - it is going to 19 take longer, another nine months. Our two dates came right 20 into mesh. It is. just taking them l.onger to build the plant.
21 MR. SHAP.AR1 A self-fulfilling prophesy~
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE1 Yes.
/
23 MR. BOYD: Two other delayi ~ealing with our 24 preliminary design authority issuances, the B&W BESAR, we 25 are .delaying a month. Primarily the problem dea_ls .with trying
164 .O I. 22 23 jwb 1 to complete our review on determining the minimum containment
- 2 3
4 pressure for ECCS and in the Reactor Systems Branch, and it is taking us one more month. It is a resource problem.
have got the people on other things.
We 5 BSAR-205 has not. had that _high of a pri.ori ty. It 6 is going to be .J'ify-" to finish *this in April. We are 7 showing a slip from March to April in the .charts. Talking 8
- to people this morning, of c.o.urse April is slightly more 9 than half gone now. We may not make Apri.l. We may be back 10 next month with this same problem, ~one more month.~
.I 1 The last one that 1 have on the .chart is the 12 Stone and Webster balance .of plant that goes with the B&W 13 BSAR~' I indicate here~ SWESSAR p..;J, another two-month 14 delay. We are awaiting information from the applicant:
15 Stone and Webster is having a hard time getting mass and 16 energy balance information on the s.teamline break from 17 B&W, so until Stone and Webster can get that information 18 from B&W, we can't complete our review .of the balance of 19 plant.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 'Is this the last of the PWR 21 fits to SWESSAR?
22 MR. BOYD: Yes, this is the last of the-SWESSARs.
- 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
sometime ago.?
.MR. BOYD:
You approved the Westinghouse Westinghouse combustion, and now B&W.
164.01.23 24 jwb I think there is another Westinghouse 1, if I am not
- 2 3
4 mistaken; We also -
MR. VASSALLO&
MR~ BOYD:
didn.,t we do Just for 41.
Just for SWESSAR 41.
5 If you look at this chart on PDAs, it does show, 6 over the last few months, some so~t of an *interest, or an 7 increase in interest on the part .o.f arc hi tect-eng ineers.
8 We have, if you loo"k at the additional PDAs that have come 9 in, we have a GJBBSSAR, a couple .of ESSARs, and a .GAISSAR.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: A .1tGAISSAR....?
.t 1 MR; BOYD1 Gilbert Associates, -Gilbert Commonweal th
- 12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE& What is the III"' in there.?
13 MR.* CASE1 To distinguish it from GASSAR.
14 ,MR.* BOYD: l suspe.ct, yes: 1 imagine when they 15 try +/-o come ~p with these euphemisms they have quite a 16 company contest. -ESSAR.u is a gas-cooled, , if I am 17 not mistaken.'
18 MR. VASSALLO: That is the gas-cooled,. yes.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Whatever became of those 20 discussi-ons with Bechtel who appea_red at a meeting with us 21 a . while ago, as though
. .-. they were sort of edging a little bit 22 closer to a reference system? They are not quite there yet?
- 23 24 25
.MR. CASE: You raised some questions with them, and they were going to think, and come back.
have come .ba.ck.
I don-' t think they
164_.0l.24 25 jwb MR. BO.YD: .Not to my knowledge. Each time we
- 2 3
4 talk to them, they get more and more interested, I believe.
CHAIRMAN HENDR.IE: Everytime Dne of the competitors f Ues another one .of these things, somebody else in Bechtel 5 headquarters begins to worry about their competi tiv-e position 6 and whether, in fact, if the Commission .comes out and says.a 7 Wow, standard designs, get .Schedule A, and everything else 8 gets Schedule B,_and there is a big di.fference from that 9 that they make.
10 You know, they have that to worry about as a J1 possible condition .. Hav..e*there been any murmerings fr.om 12 GA about GASSAR1 13 .MR. BO.YD: What we have on that situation, now, 14 Mr.* Chairman,' there is* a uti.li ty group formed - -GASCO 15 Reactor Associates; They are heading up the effort to 16 develop a reference system design for a gas-c*ooled reactor.
17 They plan on filing an .SAR, as .I understand it, in -'79, next 18 year; 19 We have talked to them on two or thtee occasions; 20 now. They are enthusiastic, .and they argue very strongly 21 each time they come in. They show the progress they have 22 made since our last meeting, and apparen:tly the utilities are
- 23 24 25 b~hind them, and they are very, very serious.
,application.
In our projections, we are f.orecasting -this It won.,,.t be from ,GA; it will be from Gas-Cooled
164.01 .25 26 jwb Reactor Associates, *which inc.ludes .G.A. As I remember, *1 t
- 2 3
4 will be something lik-e - I have to confe..ss, this is only a guess, but somehow M950 megawatts~ sticks in my head:
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That is .a good size. ,Can they 5 get~ single turbine in conventional steam conditions at 6 950.?
7 MR; BOYD: No, they have got something that was 8 peculiar to me when I heard it 9 -CHAIRMAN HENDRIE,1 Do you remember when the big 10 plants were in before, they had to split, and take two JI turbines in or.der to handle the output;
- I .wondered if the 12 turbine people had crept up a little bit in the meantime, 13 and the power _level in the reactor crept. do.wn.
14 MR. BOYDs I think they have a specialized turbine 15 situation, I. think, maybe involving only one turbine -
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRI&1 How much of GASSAR will be I7 Bpplicable and transfarrable?
1.8 .MR; BOYD-: The base technology . will, .of course, 19 be tr.ansfe.rrable; The specific design information won-'t.
20 And Df course; GASSAR is not really what 1 would call a 21 standardization review; it is more of a special pr.ojec*t, 22 iooking at specific aspects. The GASSAR thing would never 23 have led to a PDA.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The current one, is it going 25 to be the full plant?
164.01026 27 jwb MR. BOYD: My understanding is it is.
- 2 3
4
.ones.?
~R: CASE:
MR. BOYD:
You mean the Gas Cooled Associates, Yes.
5 .MR.' CASE-= We discussed a number of al terna.ti ves 6 with them, and suggested that that was one of the more 7 desirable ones.
8 MR. BOYD-: 1 donJt believe they have rea.lly made 9 that decision yet, but -
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I hav.e been anticipating that
. 11 the HTGR, if it was ever going to apply again, the first 12 . thing we would see would be a, reference design~ rather than 13 a utility - than a CP application.,* They would want to get 14 part way down the line on that reference design reYiew and 15 see how that was going to - beginning to come out. before 16 they get 17 MR. BOYD.: I think that is precisely the way the 18 utilities involved are playing it.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Should we -
20 MR.* BOYD: Jt is almost .I l :oo oJclock. 1 am 21 finished, in accordance With my promise.
22 MR. GOSSI.CK: Whether youJre done, or not.
23 MR.* BOYD: Whether* JJm done, .or not *
. 24 (Laughter.)
25 OlMMISSI0NER KENNEDY: What important thing would
164.01 .27 28 jwb you have added had you had more time.?
- 4 2
3 MR. BOYD: Not one thing, sir.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY1 .That-'s all I need to know.
.Notics I did underline the word ~important.~
5 .MR. BOYD: Yes.
6 C.OMMlSSIONER KENNEDY1 I remain concerned about 7 staff impacts; given the relatively low order of total wotk 8 load, and what some believe - I won-'t argue that question 9 this morning ---- a fairly high s:taffing level in total.
10 It is a very dif+/-icult question to answer, and 11 how, with that number of pe.ople, can you hav~ a staff impact 12 hold up 1 le.ens ing?
13 MR.' CASE1 It is a body in a par.ti cular .branch -
1-4 the Reactor Safety Systems Branch,.Po.wer Systems Branch, 15 Instrumentation -
16 MR.' BOYD: .Structural Design*-
17 MR.' CASE-1 and Accident Analysis Branch.
18 Those are the ones where you run into the problems. It is 19 true, on the average, there is enough people. But I can-'t 20 take (indicating) -
21 .COMMISSIONER KENNEDY.a You can-' t run the guy in 22 .. this afternoon to piCk up 20 minutes worth of work Load.
- 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: In some~~ those areas, if there were extra people, would it really make a fundamental di t.ference.?
164.01.28 29 jwb MR. CASE: Yes, it would pick up, f-or instance,
- 2 3
4 th.e Erie delay of a month or two.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But wouldn-'t you find, over the next year, that that branch would still be the one holding 5 .things up? I wonder how much o.f it is jus+/- hands and feet 6 and how much of it is the way in which that particular piece 7 of the review is done
- 8 .MR. CASE1 _I .think y:ou're _right. If you Just 9 plug .some people. in, and didn-'t - also, perhaps this is a 10 commercial - plug some .additional people in to revise the 11
- standard review plans and get them up so that they ~an and would be followed, and .develop a monitoring and control 12 13 system to assure that they were followed-14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY.a That sounds like eminently 15
- good sense. Why don-'t we Just do that,?
16 MR. CASE* Because I haven-'t got*the manpower to 17 do it.
18 COMMI SST.ONER KENNEDY.1 This is Catch-22. We 19 haven't got the manpower to solve the problem which creates 20 the shortage of manpower.
21 MR; CASl:,1 The .Catch-22 situation.
22 .COMMISSIONER KENNEDYs Someplace, there-'.s got to
- 23 24 25 be a way to solve the problem:
MR. CASE: The two situations I have shown is in plugging people into those branches, and that solves the
164. 0 J. 29 30 jwb problem. The Chairman says.: Yes, that will solve your
- 2 3
4 problem topay, but next year you will have a similar problem unless you also do other things.
trying to make.
That*' s the point T was 5 COMMISS !ONER KENNEDY-: I agree with that. It is 6 the other things that it would seem to me are .the *keys to 7 solving t_he pr:oblem.
8 MR. CASE: But in the meantime, I can't afford to 9 . hold up .operating plants. I can't afford to put people on 10 planning .for the future while there is a plant si.tting there,
.11 as y.ou point out," costing how many hundreds of thousands of 12 dollars a day because the review is~t .done:
13 .MR.* B.OYD: We have a very critical problem that 14 we are struggling .with now in that reg~rd. You may remember, 15 Mr: Chairman, some years ~go we contemplated the concept of 16 a window, and during this window so many applications -.could 17 come in. We have 4, 5, or 6 FSAR-.0L applications by 18 utilities that want to come in now.' We can-'t handle them 19 n.ow. We have -- the question is: How soon be.fore they need 20 an OL should we let them come in for the acceptance review?
21 And then, goin9 on to the review, should we believe their 22 date when they say construction will be complete1 Dr should
- 23 24 25 we believe the date that we think is more reasonable?
In either case, you canJt stand to be wrong, but
- t~ fact remains that the resources to do these four or .five
164.0J.30 31 jwb reviews just are~t there. _ While all this other stuff is end #2 2
3 4
going on, in some bra~ches we have had to make accommodations to people and say .u I can" t even begin to 1 ook at it; I am physically doing something else.J*
beg #3 5 Par.tly f.or that reason, we are sending groups 6 ar.ound to the various sites to look, in great detail, at 7 the construction to see when we think this plant is going 8 to be complete. We think we can get the job done in two, or 9 two-and-a-half years.
10 MR. CASE: Another problem is what you mentioned J I at the beginning. If you start too soon, and time goes on 12 and on", and you-' r:e not ready :tor an .OL, you find yourself 13 dqing things over. again. It is ,counterproductive from that 14 point of view to start too early.
15 MR; BOYD& l t is dif.ficult t.o find the_right 16 time: And I guess you wotild say; Ed; the right number of 17 people.
18 ~HAIRMAN HENDRIE: We are going to have to keep 19 .focusing on these problems. .One o.f the things _which I have 20 _not been able to do, thus far, which I hope to be able to 21 do is come ~ut and_spend a fair amount of time out there 22 with the reactor office and its sections, both understanding
- 23 24 25 the problems, and trying to see what sorts of --
MR.* .CASE: .I wish you would.
~HAIRMAN HENDRIE: I continue to think we have to
32 jwb l find ways in the handling and management of the reviews that 2 are mo.re .. manpower effi-cient -- a few more people in this 3 .branch, an.d one more person there, and two there is a sort 4 of a set .of microsolutions to a problem which I .think, in the 5 long run, is simply not amenable to microsolutions.
6 MR. CASE.1 I think you will find out, Mr. Chairman, 7 that there is much more scheduling of a person's time than 8 when you were there - much more than the degree to which 9 you want to sc.he,dule peoples-' time_ in .orde.r in these 10 spot shortages, to find time to get them to wotk on reviews Jl way far in advance, every pers.pn, every minute:
12 .MR: ..GOSSICK1 We have got problems similar. to. this 13 elsewhere, as y,ou well know, in the staff on money. We have 14 got an mid-year re:view scheduled to take a l:ook at where 15 .we are, and out of that I . think we are going t.o have to 16 back off and look at where the tight spots are.
/
17 Ther are a number of new tasks that have been 1e appearing ..on the horizon - stuf.f that DOE is asking Ed to 19 .do, and Cliff to look at in the way of reviews ,on corporation 20 legis.lati:on -
21 .COMMISS I.ONER KENNEDY: As far as the staff, I think 22 thare seems to be an all but inexorable tendency on the part
- 23 24 25 of the Commission to suggest to the world that we should be taking .on additional new responsibilities and *brand-new tasks, whi.ch I find hard to re cone ile with my oft-repeate..d speech to
164.0l.32 33 jwb the effect that regulators ought not to be iociking for ways
- 2 4
3 to expand their .charters.
MR. GOSSICKs Jt has been s.ome 1B months since we formulated, you know, the budget,under which we are .operating 5 now. I think we have to take a hard look at *the-priorities 6 and decide whether there are some things we are going to 7 knock off, or do on a slower schedule, in order to accommodate 8 Some of these things that are laying in f~ont ,of us.
9 MR; CASE-a It is fair to say,. Commissioner 10 Kennedy, one of the things I am trying to fu1f Lll, and where
.J 1 I am finding extreme difficulty, is the one I spoke to you
- 12 13 14 about a year or so ago in implementing WASH-1400 techniques in the licensing process~
MR. GOSSICKz That"s another one.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY.a :I understand*
16 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE-a Let me ask a final question 17 bexore you go away.
18 How are you doing on the environmental_ supplement 19 to cover the liquid pathway stu~y on the FNP Manufacturing 20 li.cense review?
21 MR.* BOYD: That is moving _r.ight alone.
22 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: .It was due, the board said,
- 23 24 25
-24 APril, or something like that?
MR. CASE:
dates established -
We plan to meet - We will m:eet the
-unjustly, in our view - by the board.
. I 64 .o I. 33 34 Jwb CHAIRMAN HENDRIEs Yes, I know, you are appealing,-
- 2 3
4 but --
(Laughter.)
.COMMISSIONER KENNEDY-1 Meanwhile, you are i 5 continuing to .work, which is commendable.
1-6 MR.* CASEs Some will not be final documents, but 7 comments.
i 8 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let-'s see. These are the draft 9 statements, aren-'t they?
1.0 MR: SHAPARs Draft supplement.
.I 1 MR. CASE: Some have been so extensively revised
- 12 13 14 we believe they have to-be circulated for comment.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE1 They are, in effect -
I don-'t know wha.t y.ou call .them, but they are second though 15 iteration drafts:
16 MR.' CASE: Yes.
I7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE-a Okay~*
18 .MR.* CASE* Let me amend the flat statement - we 19 wi 11 come very close to the schedule established by the board.
20 -CHAIRMAN HENDRIEs Good.' Tharik you very much.
21 CWhereµpon, at .I 1.110 a. m.; the meeting was 22 adjourned.)
- 23 24 25
- *