ML20137K102
| ML20137K102 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/13/1995 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20137J811 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-96-434 NUDOCS 9704040241 | |
| Download: ML20137K102 (132) | |
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OfHelol Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION i 1 4
Title:
Interview of Roland Sawyer i
l l
l Docket Number:
(not assigned)
Location: Thornton, Colorado Oute: Monday, November 13,1995 Nork Order No.: NRC-411 Pages 1-131 Ir.fo T: tion in tilis rc:ctd w:s di'ed UM in ::anr;; c!!S the F:::dsm c ir':unc!!cn
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NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. -
Court Reporters.and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 9704040241 970331 PDR FOIA SAUR096-434 PDR
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 -++++
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 ---------------------------------x 7 IN THE MATTER OF: :
8 INTERVIEW OF : Docket No.
9 ROLAND SAWYER : (not assigned) 10 :
11 ---------------------------------x 12 Monday, November 13, 1995 13 14 83 East 120th Street 15 Thornton, Colorado i
16 l 1
17 18 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 19 1:00 p.m.
1 i
20 BEFORE:
1 21 JONATHAN ARMENTA, JR., Investigator 22 CHRIS CAIN, Technical Assistant 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W.
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r 1 EgQCEED1HQS 2 MR. ARMENTA: For :hu record, this is an 3 interview of Roland Sawyer. Mr. Sawyer, would you go-I 4 ahead and please spell your first name and your last name.
5 MR. SAWYER: R-O-L'-A-N-D, S-A-N-Y-E-R.
6 MR. ARMENTA: Today's date is November 13. It 7 is approximately 1:00 p.m.
8 Present at this interview, Mr. Sawyer, is Mr. l 9 Chuck Cain from our NRC regional office; our court 10 reporter, who As Ms. Hershey; and my name is Jonathan l
11 Armenta, Jr. I am with the NRC, Office of Investigations, 12 also from Region IV in Arlington, Texas.
13 This interview, Mr. Sawyer, is being tape 14 recorded and will be transcribed by the offices of Ms.
15 Hershey.
16 Mr. Sawyer, would you give us your physical 17 address, please.
18 MR. SAWYER:
19'l .
20 MR. ARMENTA: Is this address the same as your 21 mailing address?
22 MR. SAWYER: Yes, it is.
23 MR. ARMENTA: Your telephone number?
24 MR. SAWYER: Area cod 25 MR. ARMENTA: Your date of birth?
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1 MR. SAWYER: f, 2 MR. ARMENTA: Your Social Security?
3 MR. SAWYER: .
4i MR. ARMENTA: Are you employed at this present 5 time?
6 MR. SAWYER: Self-employed.
7 MR. ARMENTA: And-what is the nature of your .
8 bus'iness?
9 MR. SAWYER: It is a lawn care and landscaping 10 business.
11 MR. ARMENTA: Is this your business, or do you 12 work for --
13 MR. SAWYER: I am a partner with Ken Zahrt.
14 MR. ARMENTA: Before we go on, I would like to 15 ask you to please stand and raise your right hand, so that 16 I may administer the oath.
17 Whereupon, 18 ROLAND SAWYER .
19 having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness
- 20 herein and was examined and testified as follows
21 MR. ARMENTA: Please be seated.
22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. ARMENTA:
24 0 Mr. Sawyer, do you have your attorney presen't 25 with you?
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A No, I do not. 4 . . s.
2 .O Is it of your own free will that you are here 3 without your attorney? -
4 A Yes, it is.
5 0 Is it of -- also by your request that we are 6 having this interview? '
7 A Yes, it is.
8 0 I would just like to point out, Mr. Sawyer, 9
that you can terminate this interview at any time that you 10 may so desire.
You are not under any obligation from the 11 NRC.
We are here to listen to you and answer most all of 12 your questions that we do have an answer for your 13 questions also.
14 A Okay.
15 0 would you briefly tell us about your 16 educational background after high school, the year you 17 graduated from high school, and then pick up the education 18 background from there.
19 A Okay. I graduated from high school i -
20 was a -- went into the nuclear power program in the Navy; 21 spent almost five years in the Navy as an engineering 22 laboratory technician.
Got out of the Navy. Throughout 23 that time, I have accumulated approximately, oh, 90 to 95 24 credit hours towards my bachelor's degree, have not 25 finished it as of yet, various college courses here and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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t 1 there, working towards my degree, and coma continuing i i
2 education things. ,
i 3
As far as field work, I would'say the 4 predominant thing is being NRRPT qualified, dnd that is 1
5 basically it. l 6 Q Your employment history -- and you please tell !
I i
7 us your employment history, starting with your first 8 employment in the nuclear industry and to the present.
l 9 A Probably the first one would be the United 1
10 States Navy, and --
11 O What year, time frame are we talking?
12 A '80'to late '84.
13 Q And your duties there?
14 A As an engineering laboratory technician, which 15 is a combination of a chemist and a HP.
16 O Okay.
17 A After that I started in the commercial 18 industry. Between then and -- between, say', I think it
~
19 was *84 and a year and a half ago, whatever that was, '93, 20 whenever we got -- '94 -- I am sorry - '94, whenever we !
. 21 were released at Fort St. Vrain, I was a health physics 22 technician, working for various companies as a contrac:or.
23 I have been in just about every position and 24 been in every type of outage situation, from a generator 25 replacement to recert pipe replacements throughout the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRtBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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1 years. My experience is very divarnified.
2 Been in ALARA positions, rad engineering 3 positions. .In 13 or 14 years, I probably, spent eight of 4 those as a supervisor, and that is about it, up to about 5 April of last year when I bought the lawn care and
- 6 landscaping business and said goodby to the nuclear 7 industry.
8 Q So how many years did you spend at Fort St.
4 9 Vrain?
10 A Almost three. I went to Fort St. Vrain -- I 11 was down in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, writing initial 1 12 procedures for the instrumentation program for the site :
13 characterization.
14 O And who did you work for at Oak Ridge? ,
15 A SEG.
16' O SEG, Scientific Ecology Group.
17 A Yes. After I wrote the procedures, I came 18 directly out here, developed the instrumentation program 19 for site characterization with the Ludlum 2350 data logger i
20 for SEG and in conjunction with Ludlum Instruments. I 1
21 camre out here and instructed all the technicians on how to 22 use this new fancy instrument and stayed out here through 23 site characterization.
24 I then bought a house out here, so I wanted to 25 stay, so I switched over to ARC, Applied Radiological NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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a ggg:gf r '.1 Controls, stayed out here as a shif t-qualified aftift5 '
, 2 technician, working for ASC under the guidance of Public 3 Service, stayed underneath ARC, was promothd to a fuel l
4 deck supervisor during defueling, and when the defueling l 5 was over, I switched back over to SEG for the 1
6 decommissioning.
7 Q Who was your supervisor when you were at Fort 8 St. Vrain working for SEG7 I 9 A Initially it was Ken Zahrt was my direct 10 supervisor, and then when I was with ARC, my supervisor j
11 was Rob Rankin. And then when we came back over to l
12 decommissioning, Ken Zahrt was my supervisor again, l 12 hecause I came in $s a technician. Then on September 15 14 of -- I have to check my notes; I know it was the 15th, l
15 because it i efore my birthday. That is the 16 only reason I remember thati.
7 9/15/92, was promoted P.o the day shift la superviso'r for the decommissioning project. My direct --
19 Q Did you still answer to Mr. Zahrt at that 20 time?
21 A Yes. My direct -- I was the day shift l 22 supervisor. Mike Miles was the night shift supervisor, 23 and Ken Zahrt was the radiation detection operations 24 supervisor.
25 O Excuse ms. Up until the time that you were NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 2M WASHINGTON, O C. 20005
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1 rolonced from Fort St. Vrcin, was Ken ZEhrt your 2 supervisor?
3 A Yes. The entire time. .
4 Q Who was Mr. Zahrt's supervisor?
5 A I guess direct chain of command would have .
6 been -- his first supervisor would have been Dick Sexton, 7
t and then above Dick would have been Ed Parsons who was the 8 project radiation protection manager.
9 Q Was that more or less the organizational chart 10 at that time?
, 11 A Basically at that time, yes.
12 Q And we are looking at 1992 to 1994.
13 A To '94. Right.
14 s
Q I think that for the record we -- you and I q <
15 have crossed paths before --
4 16 A Yes. !
l 17 Q --
in another investigation that NRC conducted 4
18 and also in this most recent investigation that NRC has 4
19 conducted at Fort St. Vrain, which brings us to this -- to 20 the notice of violation that you received from the NRC.
i 21 A Uh-huh.
, 22 0 It is our understanding that you have 23 requested to talk to the NRC, to disclose or convey your 24 side of the story.
25 A That is correct.
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1 O I boliove you told our NRC ctaff in Arlingto2 ]
2 that you had not had a chance to be interviewed by the 3 NRC. Is that correct? -
4 A That is correct.
5 Q That is why we are here, to hear from you, and 6 I would just at this point, I would like to start with one 7 question, and then from there on, I would ask Mr. Chuck to 8 go ahead and ask you some of the questions that he has, 9 and I am sure you have some information. But on the prior i 10 investigation that NRC conducted, which I am referring to 11 the harassment-intimidation investigation -- do you recall l
12' that --
13 A Yes, ! do. j I
14 Q -- investigation? You and I talked about some l 15 issues regarding another contractor on site and of cours'e, 16 your company, SEG. I believe at that time I did ask you j 17 if there was anything else that you wanted to provide the 18 NRC, and at that time, you indicated, no, that .that was 19 all that you wanted to provide or information that was 20 pertinent to the investigation.
21 And I asked if there -- that your -- had your 22 testimony been voluntary, and you said, yes, and then I 23 gave you an opportunity to disclose anything that you l
24 would have. At that time, you did not disclose i 25 information that has since then been raised.
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1 I would like to ack you: Why didn't you d 2 disclose that to me at that time?
3 A There was some of the stuff that was not 4 pertinent. Some of the stuff -- after so long, Jonathan 5 and Chuck, I mean, after so long of getting beaten and --
6 not physically, but getting duressed and suppressed for 7 two to three years, there is certain things that you 8 just --
I am not saying that it is right, but there's 9 certain items that come up every day, and you just sit 10 there and you shake your head. And you can only beat your 11 head against the wall so much'before it starts to hurt.
i 12 O Are you saying that you were afraid that you 13 would have been terminated- at that time if you would have 14 given some information? i 15 A Without a doubt; without a doubt. I mean, I 16 am not trying to hide anything from you people, from the 1
17 NRC. I am not trying to hide anything. But conversely I 18 have got six mouths to feed, too.
19 You know, I am not a -- if something, you 20 know, goes on, I am not trying to say that I would 21 overlook, because I tried not to; I tried to keep !
22 things -- as a day shift supervisor, I tried to keep I 23 things on as level of a par and keep things going as well 24 as possible out there, without violating procedure or 25 without endangering anyone.
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1 But, again, I say: There is only so long you l l
2 can beta your head against the wall or have your head beat i 3 against the wall before it starts to hurt.
4 0 Okay. i 1
S A And it is not -- some of it just wasn't 6 pertinent. I mean, my focus of -- my focus during the l i
7 conversations with you, the initial conversations with )
8 you, was on the harassment-intimidation by Danny Hicks or 9 whoever. I don't particularly remember exact, you know, 10 conversation. I mean, it was a long time ago.
11 But, you know, there was no reason to -- that 12 was where my -- you know, I might have had a horse with '
13 blinders on. : was concentrating on giving you and 14 answering-the questions that you put forth to me, and, you 15 know, you asked me specifically -- one thing I do remember 16 is: Do I intimidate you? And I said, No.
17 You know, I respect and -- your position 18 intimidates me, I mean, you know, with the badge and the 19 whole nine years and the power that you have being with 20 the O&I. But I wasn't there to lie to you. I was there 21 to answer your questions as truthfully as I could, and I 22 am just not going to -- I didn't have any more to give you 23 at that time.
24 And we have had -- since all of this has been 25 going on, we have had a whole lot of time to do a lot of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W
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1H thinking, too.
o So that is basically it. __3 f
Q Also I do want to point out 3 went h on record, Mr. that before we ,
4 rather, Mr. Cain, Cain and I discussed with uyo or, i
5 try and focus this intervi i issues in response to this ew on the 6 notice i received. of violation that you \
7 i And with that, \
8 Cain. I will hand this \
over to Mr.
9' \
BY MR. CAIN:
10 \
Q !'
11 Have you had a chance to look at Anderson, Malone report the Stiers, 12 that okay.
You have got a copy of --
Public Service of Colorado -
13 A
This is not 14 draft. the official copy, but thi s is a 15 _
Q All right.
16 MR. ARMENTA:
17 For the record, indicate that Mr. Sawyer is I do want to 18 showing us the Stiers, Anderson, Malone draft It indicates, 19 Confidential, Personal and 20 For Discussion Purposes Onl y.
THE WITNESS:
21 brown envelope, This was mailed to meplain in a with no return address.
22was from Colorado but i
, The cancellation f 23or - I have a good ide I have no idea who it came from a where it 24 (Ccviously it came from but I
came from Fort not whom.
25 St. Vrain.
But -
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1 BY MR. ARMENTA:
2 Q How many pages are in this draft, 1 3 approximately?
l 4 A Twenty-two. ;
1 5 Q Twenty-two? l 6 A Twenty-two is what -- this is what this is.
. l 7 So this is what I have read. ,
l 8 BY MR. CAIN:
9 0 Okay. The reason I asked that question is I 10 wanted to see to what extent you were knowledgeable of ;
l 11 what the issues are here. Let me summarize very concisely )
12 what the issues are, as we understand them, and then we 13 will -- what I want to do at that point is allow you an 14 opportunity to give a response to the notice of violation.
15 Essentially we are going to turn it over to 16 you and let you tell us your side of the story. Okay?
17 A okay.
18 O The issues as'I understand them -- and feel 19 free to correct me along the way here -- is that there 20 were some surveys that were conducted in late 1992. And I 21 understand these to be materials release surveys of some 22 kind. I am not familiar exactly what kind of materials we 23 are talking about, if we are talking about reactor I 24 components --
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1 could be anywhere from the entire recctor building.
2 0 okay. But they are release survey records of 3 some sort that the surveys were conducted- in late 1992, 4 and yet it seems, according to the Stiers, Anderson, 5 Malone report that these records -- the records of those ,
6 surveys were not generated until 1993, early 1993, several 7 months after the surveys were conducted.
8 And what we are hera to explore with you is 9 the circumstances of those records being generated after 10 the fact, if that, in fact, is the case. And nonetheless 11 SEG has indicated to us that it is their belief that, 12 despite those records being generated after the fact, that 13 there.was not any cff-site contamination --
14 A True.
15 0 -- that resulted from this; that the material, 16 in fact, had been surveyed a.nd that it was releasable; it 17 was within NRC guidelines for release out of the l 18 restricted area despite the fact that there were no 19 records.
20 A Was that the surveys that were generated from 21 the log book on level I? There was a group of surveys )
22 that were performed by Jim Bixby that -- and this is 23 coming from this and the whole investigation, the whole 24 Stiers, Anderson, Malone thing. There was a group of 25 survey items that were released, that were put into a log NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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1 book and not put on a survey form. ' '
Mr. Sixby was instructed to take them from the 2
log book and transpose them on to a survey form. Now, if 4 that is what you are talking about, yes. I --
who told 5
them to do it, when it was told to do it, I will tell you 6 the same thing I told Stiers, Anderson, Malone: I don't 7 particularly, specifically remember.
8 When I was a supervisor there, I talked to 9 anywhere between 150 and 200 people a day. To ask me what 10 I told them, what I told somebody two and a half years ago 11 is facetious. Stiers, Anderson, Malone didn't like that 12 answer, but tough. : mean, you know, that is my attitude.
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- mean, : am not try ng :o be evasive, but, you know, it 14 is like me asking: What did you tell your wife three 15 years ago?
16 Q I understand.
17 A' You can't do that. I mean, general 18 information about the subject, I can remember some. But 19 specific examples, : don't know.
20 0 Well, are you telling me at this point then 1
21 that you have no knowledge of what records we are talking 22 about here when we talk about the release survey records 23 that purportedly were falsified?
24 A They weren't falsified.
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._ . _ _ _ I 1 records hnro, cro you cwsra of wh t recordo wa cro talking a 2 about, that is the subject for discussion here? l 3 A I -- yes, I am. ,
l 4 0 Okay. And then the other large set of records j I
5 that we are talking about is records of surveys that would 6 support' issuance of RWPs.
7 A Right.
l l
8 Q And then there is a third record which, I 9 guess, is related to the other two categories, which is i
10 one that we want to take up particularly with you is -- l l
11 A Oh, you bet you.
12 0 --
a survey of the -- what is called -- i 1
13 A Hot service facility plug.
14 Q -- hot -- yes. The hot service facility block i 15 or plug.
16 A Floor plug. l l
17 0 And so that is a third -- if I can -- l l
18 A Let's do that one number one', i 19 0 Well, all right. But if I can kind of 20 categorize where we are going here, there is then three 21 kinds of records or three issues that we want to discuss 22 here: It is the records regarding material release 23 surveys; records regarding surveys for RWPs; and then this 24 hot service facility plug survey. Okay?
25 A Uh-huh.
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1 Q And again the SAM report, the Stiers, Anderson, Malone repcrt, would suggest or report that l
3 records -- certain records regarding the surveys were l
4 falsified or fabricated, and we want to give you an 5 opportunity to describe to what extent that was so.
6 Let me say at this point, too: We recognize 7 that when we use a label like "talsified records," that --
8 that has to be couched carefully, because I have been in 9 this business long enough to know that all of us generate 10 records that in somebody's perception, it might be a 11 falsified record. Or just because you generate a record, 12 maybe, at a date down the road from when the work was 13 performed doesn't necessarily maan that it was falsified, 14 so -- ,
1 15 A Pretty ominous word, though. I i
16 Q Yes, it is. It is a very incriminatory word, 17 so we want to investigate with you in detail about what 18 that means.
19 A okay. ,
1 20 0 We want you to tell us how those records were 21 prepared and maybe even suggest to us as to how Stiers, l
22 Anderson, Malone arrived att such a conclusion, and to what 23 extent we should believe that or not. And -- I l
24 A well, let me --
25 0 Let me do this. At this point, having, I ;
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l 1 guaas, basically introduced the subject m t'ter, let m3 2 turn it over to you. And if you want to start with the 2 hot service facility block, fine. But that is what we 4 essentially want to do this afternoon, is work our way 5
through these three categories of records.
6 A Okay. And I will be glad to, you know, go ;
i 7 through these three categories, but then there is some 8 other things, like I said at the beginning, that I would I
. 9 like to definitely go over too. I l
, 10 0 Okay. That is fine, recognizing that these l 11 three categories of recorc's are basically what is in the I2 notice of violation.
I l
. 3 A Right. A 'ot of these are going to come in to j
4 14 play, so I am going to ce flipping through my notes, you 15 know, so -- .
I 16 0 Well, on my notice of violation, SAM, which is 17 'i ' e. St iers , Anderson, Malone investigation, " concluded 18 that you falsely documented a post-decontamination survey 19 of a hot service facility block on a survey form dated 20 September 27, 1993, and concluded that you did not do the 21 survey."
22 My answer to that is, Garbage. In 14 years, I 23 have never written up a survey that I had not performed.
24 I have written up surveys for technicians based on if they 25 were, say, in the cavity and I was upstairs, and they were NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCASERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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1 still in there for another two or three hours. I would 2 write up their survey based on their -- what they would 3 send out.
l 4 I would not sign it, or I would sign it and 5 then they would sign it. That is as a technician. That 6 is not falsifying. Okay. Right off the bat, I am going 7 to tell you three people that witnessed me doing that 8 block survey in the turbine building truck bay: Tom 9 Dieter, Dennis Robin, and Ken Zahrt.
10 I told Stiers, Anderson, Malone that, and 11 obviously, in my opinion, they didn't want to hear it.
12 0 How do you think they jumped to the conclusion 13 then that you did --
14 A I will tell you exactly how: Because on 15 September 27, 1993, I was not logged into the building.
16 This was a comprehensive survey of a block that is 17 probably two-thirds the size of this room, six sites.
18 Q Now, tell -- in fact, I am glad you mentioned, 19 brought that up. Tell us what this --
20 A It is a very large concrete block that was one 21 of the floor plugs for the hot service facility, which is 22 like the CRD rebuild room or, you know, whatever. I mean, 23 if you are not familiar with a hot service facility is, it 24 is just a room that very highly contaminated material is 25 worked on.
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f 1 Tha floor plug is probnbly -- if it wze ;
l 2 sitting flat on the floor, it is probably from top to 3 bottom, it is a staggered plug like this, so it sits down j i
i 4 right into a pre-form. Oh , it is probably 6 foot tall, 25 j 5 foot long, 12 foot wide, very large piece of equipment.
6 And now in the center of it, it has circular plugs inside l l
7 of a plug, so that, you know, you could put, you know, j l
8 smaller things down in; you didn't have to pull the big l 9 plug.
10 The big thing that I remember -- and it :
11 irritated me during the Stiers, Anderson, Malone report 12 was the fact that they focused on the fact that on 1
13 September 27, 1993, I was not physically logged into i 1
14 either Fast Track, which is the Digi-Dose system, or I was 1
15 not logged into the gate. l l
le If I did anything wrong -- and I told these l l
17 people that then -- I put the wrong date down on it. The 18 date is a moot point. -
19 0 You put the wrong date down on the survey 20 record?
l 21 A The date that the survey was accomplished. If 22 I remember correctly, I mean, it was a comprehensive 23 survey. I frisked basically the whole thing. I smeared 24 90 to 100 smears. You know, direct frisk, using an open 25 windows, and I Just -- it was a comprehensive survey. I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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1 had the technicians that were working for me survey pieces i 2 of it and, you know, check, you know, suspect areas.
I 3 And then over a period of time -- I didn't go l i
4 in on September 27 at six o' clock in the morning and say, j 5 Oops, I better get a comprehensive survey on that block, , )
6 and then at one o' clock in the afternoon say, oh, okay; a 7 two,-day survey is done in five hours.
l l
8 But Stiers, Anderson, Malone -- actually Mr. l l
9 Malone was so bloody ignorant that he had absolutely no 10 idea what I was talking about and didn't even investigate 11 it. The survey -- you talk to any HP -- how many thousand 1
12 HPs are there in the country now? Two thousand? Three 13 thousand?
14 You talk to any senior HP in the country right 15 now and ask him what time he puts down on that survey map, !
16 and I guarantee you, you get about six different answers.
17 It can be the time he starts it; the time he stops the 18 survey in the hole; the time he comes out of the hole; the 19 time he sits down and has a cigarette and has a cup of 20 coffee and decides to write it up; or by the time he gets 21 done at the end of the day and he has notes and he takes 22 them all there'and he writes them all up.
23 O Okay. Let me make sure I understand what you 24 are saying. You are saying this survey took about two 25 days to conduct.
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1 A Two to three days. I mttn, it was a long -- I 2 was a supervisor; I had technicians to supervise, so I had !
3 other things to do, so when I had, you know, an hour or l i
4 so, I would go down and I would frisk a part of it.
5 Now, another thing that Stiers, Anderson, 6 Malone' focused on was the RWP that I was on. I was on my 7 RWP. My supervisory RWP did not allow me to dress out.
8 Well, actually it did, but was not --
I did not cross any 9 loose surface contamination boundaries. It was not a l 10 contaminated area. It was radioactive material, and it 11 was posted right on the block.
12 There is not anything anywhere in 10 CFR 20 or 13 in Fort St. Vrain procedures or any RWPs that says I can't 14 go up and stick a frisker on the front of that damn thing 15 or reach up with a smear in my hand and take a smear on 16 it.
17 Did I count the -- physically count the smears 18 by myself? No. I probably did not. I don't have the 19 time to count 90 to 100 smears. I probably gave them to a 20 junior at the control point and told him, Put them on the 21 Tennlec. But, again, Malone didn't want to hear it.
1 22 They got so focused on the fact that they had l 23 me for falsifying -- and, I mean, in my deposition, he l
24 goes over and over and over and over 2nd over again the 25 fact that September 27, September 27, and finally that was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS l 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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1 th2 matting that I said, All right, fina; I cm out of
- l 2 here; I have had enough of you. It is ridiculous.
3 O Let me make sure I understand what you said so 4 far.
5 A Go ahead.
6 Q That you did conduct the survey and that the 7 date that was -- that could be on a survey form for this ;
8 could range anywhere in a period of three days and still 9 be proper, and I agree with you on that. I understand.
10 A Right.
l 11 Q And -- but that you were present and did the i 12 survey, but that there was some problem in terms of your 13 being listed on the proper RWP or being logged on with the 14 Digi-Dose system or having logged in through security, or 15 something --
16 A That was the thing.
17 0 -- administrative in terms of your presence at 18 the site was amiss, but in terms of your doing the survey, 19 you actually conducted it.
20 Now, let me ask you this. Were you the only 21 one that conducted the survey, or did any of your 22 subordinates assist you with this? or did you do it all 23 by yourself?
24 A The survey that I documented was done 25 completely by myself. There was other surveys of it to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W-(202) 2M WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 2m
. 24 1 support -- wh:t it was is it w=s a comprohansive back-up 2 is what it was. It is not that I didn't distrust my -- I 3 did not mistrust my technicians or anythihg, and I wasn't 4 checking up on them or anything like that.
5 All I wanted to do was we had had problems 6 with that block; we knew that the dang thing was going to 7 leech. We knew it was going to leech. And so we kept 8 checking it, kept checking it, kept checking it. We 9 thought we had gotten it clean, and then finally -- all 10 right.
11 I went down and I started it. It happened to 12 be slow at some time. I went down and started it, and if 1? I remember correctly -- because Malone just hammered this, 14 hammered this thing at me. The time on the survey was 15 sometime in the afternoon, and according to SEG records 16 and everythino else, I was in some training class.
17 Well', as a supervisor and as the only day 18 shift supervisor running a crew of 30 technicians and how 19 many ever craft people that were on site and keep _ing an 20 eye on everything, it was not unlike me, if I had to go to 21 a meeting, because they were so bloody boring, or go to 1
22 training or do something like that, for me to take a pile 23 of my paperwork, so I didn't have to stay un*il eight or 24 nine o' clock that night f. rom four o' clock in the morning.
25 I mean, where I documented it, I don't know.
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l 1 I don't remtmbar. I maan, when, whero, I just don't. '
l 2 Honestly I do not remember. But, I mean, it is not unlike 4
3 me, if -- Malone told me that I was in training. So? I 1
l 4
mean, that is my answer to him, and he did not like that i
5 answer either. l 6
I mean, you know, I am even willing to get 7 hooked up to a bloody polygraph. That is how adamant I am B about this damn survey. That thing -- that irritates me 9
more out of the whole letter of violation.
t It just l
10 irritates the crap out of me, you know, because --
1 11 And the other thing being -- and this to me 12 says that I don't need to really say much more -- is that 12 I have got three individuals, two M-K superintendents, i I
14 because they wanted it out of the truck bay, and they were 15 mad at me because I wouldn't release it. They were mad at 16 Ken Zahrt, because we wouldn't release it.
17 They were down there numerous times when I was 18 !
doing the' survey, saying, you know, Hey, how's things i 19 going; we need the truck bay. And I am saying, They are 20 going okay; we are okay so far, because, you know, I went 21 very methodically to make sure that it was clean.
1 22 0 Is this plug located just east of the reactor
\
23 cavity? Just east of the reactor cavity, is that where ;
24 this thing was located? !
25 A Yes. Against the --
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I 1 Q Baccuso the timaa I hnva bacn on cito th ra, '
l 2 there is that area set aside -- just east of the reactor i 3 cavity is a decontamination area. Is that'where we are )
/
4 talking about?
5 A Well, it was. I don't remember --
i 6 Q Is that where the plug was located as well? j i
7 A (Drawing.) Here was the cavity, and then 8 there was actually two plugs, cne here, one here. They i
9 were very large plugs. There was another crea over here 10 that had a bunch of plugs. Okay. That was an actual 11 decontamination area also.
12 O Elevators right here?
13 A Elevator doors right here, control room is 14 right here, just like that -- well, something like this.
15 Yes. I believe that was north. If that was north, then, 16 yes. These are right smack in the middle; they are huge.
^
17 They had round circles in them also, and if you went down 18 two levels and went along this catwalk, there was big j I
19 glass windows that you could look into.
20 O Okay. I have never been at that part, but 21 just for the transcript's sake, let me -- my question was 22 answered by virtue of the fact that you drew a diagram 23 that showed that these plugs were east of the reactor l 24 cavity, which was my recollection as well.
25 A Yes.
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1 0 Okay. All right. I am saticfied with your 2 answer. I mean, you don't -- you have persuaded me. I l 3 hear your side of the story, that your contention is that ,
4 you did, in fact, conduct this survey of the hot storage' 5 facility plug, and that SAM apparently got the impression 6 that you were not present because of some sort of 7 administrative record that showed your presence elsewhere 8 or not --
9 A Right.
10 0 --
logged into the site.
11 A They asked me numerous times -- they -- Malone 12 asked me numerous times, Well, how long would it take you 13 to take 90 smears? How long would it take you to count 90 14 smears? How long would it take you to load the Tennlec 15 with 90 smears? How long would it take --
16 I mean, you know, he is trying to get all of 17 this, and then all of a sudden he is -- in my opinion was 18 being a real smart-aleck about the whole thing after I 19 said, you know, rough estimates on how long it would take 20 me to do that. And he said, Well, you weren't even on 21 site this day. How did you do all that in that amount ot 22 time?
23 You know, so that just -- that was the end of 24 that conversation. I got up and I left. I had had 25 enough, because he was not listening. I might have been NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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28 t
1 talking to the desk here.
2 O Let me ask you a question then about these 1
administrative procedures, not knowing that much about it.
4 I mean, I have been on site and I have -- I think I still 5
have a badge on site, and I have been through and gotten 6
the Digi-Dose and I have gone through the procedure that 7 you are talking about.
8 How were you able to get into the reactor 9
cavity area without logging through these systems?
10 A Because the hot service facility plug was not 11 in the reactor building. It was in the turbine building 12 truck bay.
13 Q Oh, at this point it has been moved out --
14 A Oh, yes. It had been released outside, put 15 outside. A technician went outside just to do a check on 16 it and found something on it.
i 17 Q Okay. So this is in -- so you are conducting 18 the survey of this plug that has now been transported out 19 to the turbine building.
i 1
20 A It was in the turbine building truck bay; 21 train bay actually is what they called it, I believe.
22 That is where it was. It wasn't in the reactor building.
23 o I see. It has been lowered down by the crane, 24 down to the lower level?
25 A No. Actually --
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l 1 Q Io thnt tha wny it crma out, or -- ~
2 A No. (Drawing.) Here is the reactor building; i
3 here is the truck bay for the reactor building and admin 4 building, turbine building; a train bay right here. It 5 was lowered down from the refueling floor, down into the 6 train bay right here, taken out, escorted around and 7 backed into here, and that is where it was roped off as 8 RAM.
9 Q I see. So you were in an area that didn't 10 require TLD.
11 A No. You automatically -- at Fort St. Vrain, 12 you automatically had a TLD when you walked on site.
13 0 Well, okay. It didn't require that you 14 logged -- that you fill out the RWP -- it didn't require 15 an RWP.
16 A No. But I was on an RWP. I was on my 17 supervisory RWP.
l 18 Q Okay. But it didn't require that you --
19 A No special conditions.
20 Q No special condition. You didn't have to have 21 the Digi-Dose and all that.
22 A Technically, no. I did not have to have a 23 Digi-Dose to go anywhere near that.
24 Q Okay.
25 A Technically by 10 CFR 20, I didn't have to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUC N W (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON. O C 20005 (202) 2344433
30 ,
1 have doodly to get near it, because it wasn't --
2 ; Well, when you explained this to stiers, ,
i 3 Anderson, Malone, why didn't --
4 A Sheer ignorance on his part, not knowing what l 5 in the heck he was talking about, and not knowing what he 6 was listening to. That is my -- and in addition to that, 7 not wanting to hear. They had -- in my opinion, they had l 8 something that was so clearcut as a falsification that 9 that muddled hearing anything else. That muddled their 10 hearing on everything else.
11 Q Okay. ,
12 A That is my very -- that is my gut opinion. I 13 mean. I told him about these individuals. Tom -- Dennis i 14 Robin, Tom Dieter, Ken Zahrt. Rule out Ken; he is ;nder l
15 investigation. I have got two very respectable 16 individuals right there, that would have absolutely no 17 reason to lie. Yet they didn't want to hear it.
18 0 okay. All right. Your point is clear to me.
19 I understand what you said.
20 A Okay.
21 Q Let me at this point make sure I understand 22 what you were doing. The plug had been removed to this 23 truck bay or train bay, whatever, and so it is essentially 24 ready to be released, free released. Is that correct?
25 A We were never going to fully free release. We NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) FW33 WASHINGTON. D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
i
. ._ _ _ - . _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . . _ _ _ . _ . . . _ _ _ _ . _ ~
1 did a conditional rolecce, baccuco it was b2ing storad on 2 site. It was never being released, because it was going 3 to go -- it was going t: get scabbled and go back upstairs ,
4 and get part of the final site release.
5 It is the roof cf the hot service facility.
6 You take it out, you got a big old hole in the floor.
7 Q It was going to be scabbled and planed and 8 then put back in place.
9 A For final site release. That was my 10 understanding, and so it was a condition of release. And 11 when we took it from the reactor building, if I remember, 12 what should have happened and if I remember vaguely is we 13 would do a ecndit;:n release and make sure it doesn't have i
14 any smearable on it. Okay. Release the truck that it is 15 on as far as smearable, do a conditional release from the 16 reactor building truck bay.
17 HP can escor it, having done a conditional 19 release, escort it over tb the trLin bay. The area is 19 roped off, and then the survey is finished, not clogging j 20 the reactor building truck bay, because that is where the 21 majority of all the stuff came out.
1 22 So we -- I meat. that is the big items. That 23 is the only way we could get them out of the reactor 24 building was the train bay. And so if we clogged that up 25 for three to four or f;". cr six days -- I mean, it must NEAL R. GROSS COUA1 REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 R10DE ISLAND AVENUE N W 6202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D C 20005 (202) 2344433
az -
l have sat in the truck bay for -- the turbine building 1
l 2 train bay for at least a week; you know, maybe more than a 1
2 week and a half.
4 So, I mean, they couldn't clog this up that 5 long, so that would have been the way to get it over to 6 here, to conclude all of the surveys that needed to be 7 done on all the frisking, all the -- you know, additional 8 smears because of the thoughts that we may have leeching.
9 All of that concrete up under the refuel 10 floor, every time we did something with it and then let it 11 sit for about three days, come back and smear it again, it 12 leeched like a booger. I mean, it just -- we knew it
.3 would, so, you knew -- so char is where we were.
14 Q Let T.e ask you a question at this point --
15 A Sure.
16 0 -- that may be applicable to everything that 17 we are going to discuss this af.tcrnoon. Can you discuss 18 some of the mechanics of the kind of survey that you are 19 conducting? You have talked about smearable surveys. I 20 guess there was also some direct surveys.
21 Would you describe the kind of equipment that 22 you used, and also to your recollection, describe the form 23 that you were completing. What kind of data was required 24 cn the form? Did you convert -- you were probably having 25 cc convert count-per-minute data from a survey instrument, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W (202) 2344 433 WASHINGTON. O C. 20005 (202) 2344433
1 1 using some sort of calibration or conversion fcctor down i
2 to DPM per hundred square centimeters or something of that l 3 nature. -
4 In other words, just go through the process in ,
i l
5 some technical detail of what it was that this survey l i
6 entailed. 1 i
7 A well, in order to do the release, it would i i
8 have had to -- well, the top of the survey forms had name, 9 date, a title as to what it was, where you were doing it, i
10 where the survey was being done, and it had your 11 instrument data. We probably had an RM-14 with a DT-304 12 probe on it, pancake probe.
1 13 0 1.et's T.ake sure -- this is a beta gamma
- 14. pancake probe.
15 A Yes. It is an RM-14 frisker. Okay. With a 16 DT-304 probably, a shielded type probe, just to eliminate 17 any type of background.
18 Q This is a tungsten shield probe with a handle 19 on it in the back and so on.
2C A Right.
21 Q Okay.
22 A. Even really didn't -- it may or may not have. )
23 1 don't know. Okay. Because of that area, it is very low 24 in background. Tennlee to count the smears.
25 Q How are you taking the smears? Are you using NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 2M WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 l
. 34 1 the Wattman filter or --
2 A It was 100-square centimeter; you'r 17-1/2-I square centimeter smears. I don't remember whether we --
4 which ones we used. I really don't remember whether we 5 used the Wattmans or the papers or the fibers, I mean, but i
6 the smear -- hundred-square-centimeter smear. You know, 7 obviously it may or may not have been done.
8 Like I say, I don't remember exactly how I 9 performed it. In large areas, take maslin smears, count 10 them with a frisker to find areas of suspect. Okay. The 11 holes, dig down in the holes with a maslin to see if you 12 can get anything gross, and then you know to look real "2
_ hard in that area.
14 You know, investigative curveying is what I 15 used to call it. Smear the entire block. Okay. You 16 know, it would probably take about 100 smears to do it on 17 something like that, you know, for 100 square centimeters, i
18 on a 100-square-centimeter smears. l 19 Q You are not smearing the entire surface area.
20 A No.
21 0 This is still a sampling procedure.
22 A Right. It is 'a random sampling procedure. I 23 mean, it is just like any other survey. I mean, if you ;
l 4 had a room like this, you know, I would take 20 smears in 25 this, .5 smears in this room.
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1 But to also releace it as clotn, I would 2 also -- if this was bare floor, I would also go over the 3 entire floor area with a maslin or maslins to get a gross ,
4 idea in the room. It cannot be used as a quantitative.
5 However it is perfectly valid for a qualitative look at 6 the room, just for area-wise.
7 So -- and then, you know, all the instruments 8 would be on there; the smears would be taken; the smears 9 would be put on the Tennlec. The Tennlec reads out in 10 DPM, okay, above background. It automatically does all 11 the background, subtracts.
12 If I remember right, the procedures out there 13 were for a frisker or direct frisk were CCPM, corrected 14 counts per minute; in other words, counts per minute above 15 background. Okay. If they were all less than 100 CCPM 16 per probe area, thus they would be less than, you know, i l
17 your limit of -- your fixed limit is 5,000 DPM.
18 So. , I mean, you know, you had a .-- your probe 1
19 area is 20 square centimeters, and you are only looking at !
20 one-fifth of th'e 100 square centimeters, so you mdltiply 21 that by 5; thus you get your 5,000 DPM.
22 Man, that is not bad. I have been out of it 23 for two years.
24 Q Let's see. It is 20-square-centimeter probe.-
25 A Right.
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I 36 1 Q And you cra multiplying by 5 to gat 100 square 2 centimeters. Is that what you are saying?
4 3 A Right.
4 Q Okay.
5 A So in order if -- so if you have a limit of 6 1,000 DPM per 100 square centimeters, your area is one-7 fifth, so it increases -- you are lowering your 8 sensitivity, so you increase your limit.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Okay.
It is inverse. So that is what would 11 be done there.
12 O What was being recorded now on the form when 13 you were taking direct surveys?
14 A Smear locations. How we did smear were pound 15 signs, okay, usually is where a direct frisk was taken, or 16 a lot of times if you did a direct frisk of an entire 17 surface or, you know, a sampling process, you would 18 make -- just make a notation in the notes section. You 19 know, all areas of block surfaces frisked; all frisks less 20 than 100 CCPM.~ I mean, it could be done either way.
21 Q Now, does the form provide places for you to 22 convert CCPM to DPM per hundred square centimeters?
23 A Didn't have to by the best way that I can 24 remember. It was all based on how the procedures said 25 that it had to be documented. You know, each plant is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W s202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 different. It dtpsnds on --
2 O Each plant is basically different. I m=an, in 2 reality, you are comparing apples to apples. I mean, you 4 know, it is just a matter of -- a conversion factor 5 doesn't make it apples to oranges; it makes it apples to 6 apples.
7 Q So you are saying there was a --
l 8 A There is some type of admin procedure. l 9 O -- a limit that was maybe even mentioned on -- i 10 was it, the limit, on the form, printed on the form, or i
11 were -- l 1
l 12 A I don't remember.
1 13 O How could somebody -- I guess what I am asking 14 is: How could someone look at the form and say whether or 15 not the readings that you recorded were within limits, the 16 limit of 5,000 DPM per hundred square centimeters?
17 A It should have b'en e on the form. I don't 18 remember.if they are or not. I would assume that they 19 would be, you know, in real tiny print somewhere, you 20 know, something along those lines. I 21 Q I mean, did the numbers that you tinally 22 recorded correlate directly to DPM by hundred square 23 centimeters?
24 A A smearable.
25 Q Okay. You put down --
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38 1 A Smearable did.
2 O The smearable did. What about the direct 3 readings?
4 A I think that was CCPM per probe area.
5 0 Okay.
6 A Corrected counts per minute per probe area.
7 Q So that would force somebody who would review 8 the form to take that data --
9 A No. Not if it says -- what I am saying is: I 10 don't remember if on the form it -- the limits were on the 11 form in some form; you know, all smearable, less than 12 1,000 DPM per hundred centimeters squared; all direct 13 frisks less than, you know --
limit is less than 100 CCPM 14 per probe area.
15 The form would list'something like that. It 16 would be totally dependent upon, you know, what the 17 procedures said, because I remember that at one time, the 18 old Fort St. Vrain survey forms didn't have what we needed 19 during decommissioning on there, and it took us pulling 20 teeth to get them to change the damn thing.
21 Q So it had a derived limit --
22 A Right.
23 0 -- put on the form?
24 A R;ght. -
25 0 :n CCPM.
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_ _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . . _ _ _ . . _ _ , . - - . _ _ _ - . ~ _ _ . _ _ .
1 A Right. Baccuse I know tha proc; dura for
- materi.al release did 1
- .st somewhere along the line in that 2 precedure what it had to say on the survey form.
4 0 Okay.
5 A And I do remember one thing about that survey 6 is that it was a hand drawn survey. It was not a, you
- 7. know, picture. I drew it.
8 Q All right. Okay. I got the picture on that.
9 I think that is all the questions I have on the -- at this 10 point on the hot service facility plug.
11 A Okay.
12 MR. CAIN: Unless you -- Jonathan, is there 13 anything?
14 MR. ARMENTA: Yes.
15 BY MR. ARMENTA:
16 O Not getting into the technical issues, but 17 what -- my understanding why you conducted that survey was 18 because PSC found contamination in that block. Is that 19 correct?
20 A I was trying to remember tnac, because I know 21 somebody found something on the block. Now, the survey 22 that : performed was the last survey after it either came 23 back in or it came over from the reactor building. I am 24 confused as to where in the sequence of events --
25 Q It was from the reactor, on September 20.
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40 l 1 That is when PSC discovered that there was contamination.
2 A On September --
3 0 20th. l l
4 A 20th.
l i
5 Q On September 27, that is when they have you l 6 conduct the survey.
]
7 A Okay. l 8 Q On September 23, three RPTs surveyed. l 9 A Right. Bits and pieces of it. Right.
10 0 Took them 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br />. My question would be is 11 that: Was it customary that you as a supervisor conduct 12 extensive surveys?
13 A Cn stuff like that? .
14 Q Yes.
I i
15 A Customary, no, as far as anybody is concerned.
16 Customary for me, yes. My back side is on the line. Yes.
17 I would say -- was I necessarily instructed to do the 18 survey? I do'n't remember. I took'a lot of things in my 19 own hands at times and did what I thought was correct to 20 have adequate or more than adequate documentatier. fo a 21 potential problem.
22 . I don't know. PSC -- some of the ;-S' l'nalth 23 physics staff in my opinion gave my word a lon 24 warrant than they would have given some of the other 25 technicians. They didn't --
I guess this is not probably NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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_ . . . _ . _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . _..__.__......._._.L_....__.__.. . . . _
41 W
1 the best way to say it, but they didn't really trust some i 2 of the technicians. If they would have asked me to go 3 survey something, I tried not to do a lot of it because I 4 didn't have time.
5 0 Are you sure or can you recall exactly what 6 hours you conducted the survey?
7 A Oh , lord. I don't remember, Jonathan.
8 O Do you have 'ny a notes, anything that you could 9 show us proof that you did conduct the survey?
10 A The only physical proof that I have besides 11 the survey form -- and I stand behind the fact that if I 12 put my name on the survey, I did it. The only other 13 physical proof is the individuals that saw me doing the 14 survey.
15 0 I know. There were three individuals that 16 were contacted also.
17 A Did they say I did it?
1 18 Q I cannot tell you that part of -- I cannot l 19 give you that information. My question to you is: Can 20 ynn show us any proof, aside from testimonial evidence --
1 21 A Right. l I
22 0 --
that you did conduct the survey?
23 A I have absolutely -- I never received anything 24 out of my office. From the day that I stepped off site, i
25 the day -- the Saturday -- the Friday
- hat I went home and j NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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42 )
I the Sa.turday, March 26, that Ed Parsons called me and told 2 me that I was on administrative leave, I never stepped 3 back on site within the protected area after that.
1 4 0 I believe you tolc. D r. Malone and company that 5 you did not recall how and when rou conducted the survey.
6 Is that correct?
\
1 A I don't remember, Jonathan. I don't remember i l
8 what I said directly to them. I was very irritated with j 1
9 Malone. That is a matter of record. I am very irritated i
10 with -- 1 11 Q At the beginning of the interview, you ;
12 mentioned that you were very adamant about this portion of 13 the notice of violat ..
14 A Right.
l 15 O specifically this -- the hot service facility 16 plug.
17 A Yes.
18 0 Is the reason why you feel so adamantly 19 because the personality or the conflict with Mr. Malone 20 and yourself?
~
21 A No. It has absolutely nothing to do with ,
l 22 personalities. It is the fact I did the damn survey.
23 That is the reason. And that nobody wants to listen. You 24 say that three people were contacted. That is fine, you 25 know. People were contacted. I did the survey. That is l
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,-.-...---n..- - , - - - - , , - - . - - - - - - - -~~~~-~~~~~---~~~~~-~J 1 the bottom lins. i 2 I mean, you know, I have -- Malone did not 3 want to listen to anything that I had to say, and I don't 4 know whether that was before or whether it was after I i
I 5 filed a harassment charge against Mr. Malone. It was l 6 after, I guarantee you he was ticked off at me.
1 7 MR. ARMENTA: I don't have any more questions. l l
l 8 THE WITNESS: Now, I do have a question. l 9 Why -- see, here is another big part of this whole thing, l l
I 10 is we are meeting right now, and I am very appreciative of 1 11 all of this. I really am, because it gives me my chance 12 to talk. And I'said this to you wnen we talked on the l
13 phone. 1 4
14 How -- and something you just said, Jonathan.
15 How come I have this, my NOV letter, I have this in my 1 I
16 hand and I liave had it for a week, but we are talking now? I 17 And then I just asked you -- there was an investigation 18 that was carried on. There was a notice of violation 19 letter that was sent to me.
20 This has done a grave injustice to, one, my 21 career; two, my name -- no. Actually, one, my name; two, 22 my career. But yet I am not privy to any of this 23 information. I am being accused, convicted, and 24 persecuted, but nobody has given me nothing. I mean, they 25 are giving me a chance to talk. I mean, that seems --
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1 And 1 know I have said this 2 talked to him. I mean, that sounds basically:lik&' " ~
2 bureaucratic B.S. if you want to know my h'onest opinion.
4 I mean, it is my tax dollars paying you gu'ys' salary. You 5 guys are government officials.
6 4
FromeverythingIhaveeverlearned,beingllllI i b-7 years old, everything I ever learned inischool, this tells 8 me that I am guilty until proven innocent. This, the 9
Stiers, Anderson, Malone report, was a definit.e guilty 10 until proven innocent. !
That is about 180 degrees out from 1
11 everything that I have ever learned about the Constitution
{
12 of the United States.
13 And I will be very honest with you. I would i
14 like some answers. And, : mean, I realize if you guys 15 can't say'anything, then I will call whom and speak to 16 .whom is necessary to speak to. Just give me a name and 4
17 give me a phone number.
- I will call them and find out.
18 But it is -- it violates -- one, it violates l 19 my constitutional rights.
i 20 BY MR. CAIN:
21 Q Well, let me give you my best response to 22 that. And that is that we have performed a review, an 23 investigation; we have talked to Public Service of 24 2o'orado and SEG and so on.
They, first off, have 25 admitted, and it is just as much - it is as much of a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR18ERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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1 blight on their record no it is on yours for them to 2 admit, as they did to us in an enforcement conference, 3 that these records were falsified. -
4 A I wish you wouldn't use that word.
5 Q Well, that is -- nonetheless, for better or 6 worse, that is the word that is in all of these documents 7 that we have talked about. But we have done our ,
a investigation, and we have had our enforcement conference 9 with the parties involved and have reason to believe that 10 the violation occurred as it is cited in the notice of 11 violation, and we have obviously sent you the NOV at this 12 point.
_3 But the process doesn't end there, of course, 14 as we are sitting there, listening to your side of the 15 story.
l 16 A It is kind of like putting the cart before the 17 horse, though.
s 18 Q Well, we have -- there are several options 19 that we have before us. We can rescind the violation if 20 se feel like we have justification for doing so. And, of 21 course, as you have already indicated, we do solicit your 22 written response to the violation. The notice of 23 violation states that you must tell us whether you agree 24 cr disagree with the cited violation and your basis for 25 disagreeing if you do.
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so 1 So the process hasn't end;d with the iecutnca 2 of the notice of violation. You still have rights 3 accorded to you, and it is going to be your turn to speak 4 now, not only in this forum here, but also in terms of the ;
i 5 written response that you are going to prepare for us.
6 And by the way, I owe you maybe a little I 7 response to, I think, a question -- I think I heard a i
8 question from you earlier when we first began, and that i 9 was if it takes longer than 30 days to respond to the 10 notice, can we grant you an extension?
11 A Yes.
12 O The answer to that is yes. i 13 A Okay. Good.
14 Q Now, what we would like to do is we would like 15 for you to send us a letter and make a request, a formal 16 request for that extension, and we would like for the 17 extension to be a reasonable extension. We would frankly 18 not like to extend any more than another 30' days and give 19 you 60 days total. We would like to think that the issues 20 are not so complex that you didn't have to write so much 21 that you couldn't pro-ide us a response within 60 days of 22 the date of the notice, if that is reasonable.
23 A That is fine. So a letter to you guys.
24 0 Yes.
25 A Formal extension of 30-day limit.
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41 1 O We can -- and then we will respond to you to l
that letter, and as far as I know, I see no reason why 2
3 the -- the agency's response will likely b'e, yes, we will 4 grant you a 30-day extension.
r.
- 5 Q Okay. Well, in continuance, too, while I have 6 got it on my mind -- I don't mean to be rude, but, I mean, 7 this came to me, this Stiers, Anderson, Malone report, l
8 came to me from obviously somebody that wanted me to see l
9 it. Whether I should have it or not is kind of~a moot 10 point. I have it.
11 I have never seen -- there is a couple of 12 things that I want to get on the record, because there is 13 some stuff that during this investigation, that you guys !
did not get to see, you as an NRC did not get to see.
14 And I 1
15 if it is being hidden or it is being held back, okay, I am 16 going to tell you who I believe has it and who I have been 17 told by an individual who has a copy of these two things.
18 One of them is that Mr. Zahrt's -- Ken Zahrt's 19 log books during the whole Stiers, Anderson, Malone 20 fiasco, at the beginning of it his log books were there.
i 21 His log books carry a lot of weight and a lot of bearing 22 on items, not necessarily the, quote / unquote, 23 falsification, but the procedure problems and the whole 24 nine yards and the problems that were generated by PSC and 25 SEG.
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- . _ . - . ~ . _ . - _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ . . . . - .___.__... _ .__ ._
no
}
1 Oksy. I mann, thara is worda thtt you guys l 2 have in here and in Mr. Zahrt's letter: intent to 1
3 deceive. Let's talk about " intent to dece'ive." What does 4 10 CFR 20 say about releasing material to the general !
5 public? One, you need to use the most sensitive 6 instrument that you have. Two, if you don't have it, get 7 it. Okay.
8 No detectable. The PDP, the decommissioning 9 plan, states that the limits will be no detectable. On a 10 date that I don't know -- and you guys need to look at 11 this memo if you have not seen it --
the memo from Ted 12 Borst to -- Ted Borst who is the PSC RPM to SEG personnel 13 and decommissioning personnel, stating that no longer will 14 Tennlee be used on Level 1 for release of material; 15 friskers will be used.
16 You are talking about 1/100th of the 17 sensitivity. Releasing material to the public -- okay, i
~
18 Intent to deceive: Don Neely stating all the procedure )
I 19 problems, that he had no cognizance of it, baloney. He )
l l
20 signed them all. That is not intent to deceive?
21 Okay. Now, here is a big one, and you guys 22 need to get this, because I would love to see -- I would i
23 pay for a copy of this. The original -- and I emphasize 24 original MORT report -- the MORT team came on site prior 25 to Stiers, Anderson, Malone. I don't remember exactly all NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 MH00E ISLAND AVENUE, N W. l (202) 2M WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 2M
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1 who wza on it, but I know two individunle: Garnrd 2 Policastro and George Smith.
3 George Smith -- I am sure you guys having been 4 int he NRC for a while know who George is. And you know 5 who the MORT team is or what the MORT team is. Okay. It 6 is a -- I mean, we always called them Don Neely's 7 headhunters. They have done well in certain other areas.
8 The original MORT report was seen by Gerard 9 Policastro, George Smith, Don Neely, Ed Parsons, Bill Hug, 10 and Carol Calton, who was the Westinghouse project manager 11 at that time. The criginal MORT report is not what was 12 seen -- shown to everybody else. The original MORT report 13 came out and hammered Dick Sexton and Ed Parsons and 14 recommended their removal from site. And it also hammered 15 Don Neely.
16 And there is no way in hell that report was 17 ccming out, because Bud Arrowsmith, the president -- now, 18 this has all come -- and I have an individual -' and I am 19 going to say his name, and I have not directly spoken to 20 him, but through other people has said that if he is 21 subpoenaed, he will not lie -- and his name is Gerard 22 Policastro -- about that original MORT report.
23 George Smith, according to Gerard, George 24 Smith has that original MOkT report; George Smith being an
~5 ex-NRC, do you think he is ever going to destroy anything?
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1 I don't think so. !
2 O Who is Mr. Policastro? '
i 3 A He is a rad engineer right now with SEG. '
4 Okay. And -- how do I say this, other than just blurting 5 it out? I have had. discussions with certain individuals, l 6 small discussion with Gerard, another discussion -- the j 1
7 one day that I did return back to work was a Friday. I !
8 don't remember. Ed Parsons called me on a Thursday, and 9 then on Friday, I had to go back and sit through team i
10 building, which was really nauseating, but I had to sit 11 there and go through all this garbage.
12 And then as soon as Keith Bare and Duane l
)
"3 Parsons who, _ realize, are protected as far as 14 whistleblowers or whatever you want to call them, but as 15 soon as they saw me, they just went and they got -- they l
16 went and got more stuff. l i
17 They were supposed to come down that Friday, 18 SEG was, with the new organizational chart as to who I was 19 going to be working for, because I was not going to be the 20 day shift supervisor anymore; I was going to just do my 21 engineering thing. Well, they get ready to have the 22 meeting, and I get asked to leave the room. They have 23 their meeting. I am sitting in a room, just sitting 24 there, and everybody .' eaves.
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1 51 ;
1 1 on cdminictrative leave. I heard it from one of the RPTs i 2 that used to work for me. They told everybody in that 3 room. They didn't have the guts to tell me.
4 4 Well, Mr. Robin Schulte, who I don't think l
5 works for SEG anymore but he used to in an engineering 1
6 capacity, pulled me aside on that day and told me -- this 1 7 is not a direct quote, but it is pretty close: Den Neely l I
8 and the boys are really trying to screw you and Zahrt. '
9 , what else am I supposed to think? You know, 10 and I mean -- you know, I realize and I apologize for 11 getting off track, but, you know, for the longest time, 12 nobody listened to me.
13 Q Why is that? Why all this?
l 14 A You want my God's honest opinion?
e 15 O Sure. !
16 A Because I don't have a degree. I was 17 sacrificial. Ed Parsons is a certified HP, got his 18 master's degree in health physics. Dick Sexton has got a 19 master's degree in health physics. Who do you think is 20 going to make more money for SEG? Ed Parson and Dick 21 Sexton, or Chip Sawyer and Ken Zahrt? It is not real 22 tough to figure out, you know.
23 I mean, like I said, for the longest time, the 24 only people that would listen to me -- actually there was 25 no one that would listen to me, and there is nobody that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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- . J 1 would liston to Kcnny. You know, SEG did not fire m2. I
- resigned. SEG offered me a, Come back to Oak Ridge and i
~ l 3 work in Oak Ridge. '
4 Well, I am not moving my family. I spent 30 l 1
5 days in Oak Ridge, and I told Don Neely that, you know, 6 that I am not living in Oak Ridge. I am not trying to get 7 any money out of SEG or any money out of anybody else.
8 But, damn it, if the blame is going to be 9 blamed and I wasn't -- I am not lily-white and I never 10 professed to be lily-white, but darn it all, if they are 11 going to throw blame around, then everybody needs r.o get l l
12 their fair share of it, because it came from a lot higher 1
.3 up -han Ken Zahrt and :, a lot higher up. Every -- the 14 whole big. picture came from up there.
15 Q Let me go back now, make sure I get the 16 picture. There's three points that you just made that I 17 need to go back and review, make sure I understand.
18 A Go ahead.
19 Q And these have to do with the fact that you 20 are saying that there is three examples you provided where 21 there was deception on the part of SEG --
22 A Upper --
23 0 -- or PSC.
24 A Right. And/or, right.
25 0 Okay. And let me make sure I understand. I j
i NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W 120n 2344433 WASHINGTON. D C 20006 (202) 234 4433 !
~
1 went to clocrly undaretend thaec thrco extmples.
l 2 N Go ahead. j i
3 Q The last one that you just gav'e me was that 4 the original MORT team report provided some information 5 that did not reflect well toward Mr. Parsons, Neely and 6 Sexton. !
l 7 A Correct.
l l
8 Q But that was a draft report, was it, that was '
l 9 never issued? Is that the case? Or -- I 10 A What was actually told to me is what it was l l
11 called, was the original MORT report. When Don Neely and !
l 12 Bud Arrowsmith saw that, obviously what do you think 13 somebody is going to do, if, you know, you are in that l 14 position and you are see your own headhunters cutting your 15 throat, slamming you for, you kn'ow, improprieties?
. 16 0 So you.are saying that Neely and Arrowsmith ,
i 17 then had~the report amended. l l
1 18 A That is what Yas told to me. Yes. .
l l
19 0 You got that was told to you. Where did 20 you get this information?
l 21 A Gerard Policastro. And, again, like I said, l 22 Gerard has said that as far as volunteering information, 23 in his position, it would, you know, compromise -- it 24 would put him in a bad spot to have to come forward and, 25 you know, do stuff like that. As far as in his words NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 2364433 WASHINGTON. D C. 2000$ (202) 234 4433
54 1
to -- actually his words to Kenny's wife were, if I am 2 suopoenaed, : will shcw up and I will tell the truth. I 3 will not lie.
4 If he is put on a stand, he will not lie, and 5 he has sworn he will not lie.
6 o well, the main ones, then -- let me make sure 7 I remember right, that the main ones that were responsible 8 for the MORT team report were George Smith and --
9 A He was the MORT team leader, George Smith was.
10 0 Okay. And Gerard Policastro, they were --
11 A They were the only two that I can remember on 12 the team. There was many others, but I don't --
II Q Al.' r_ght.
14 A ~
fust knew those two.
15 0 Okay. All right. I think I got that point 16 down. Now, there was two other examples you gave. One l 17 was -- had to do with procedures that were generated -- go le cver that again in terms of how that was an example of j 19 deception.
l 20 A Procedures: Back in -- I got a date here; 21 hold on. Okay. Back in August of '92 or, no.
I am 22 sorry. It would have been June and July of 1992. I was 2I stil_' working for ARC, but in my spare time, I went over 24 and helped Ken Zahr- We were still doing staffing. We 25 were having problems with staffing. SEG didn't want to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 1202) 2344433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2W
A --
i 1 hacr cbout it. q 2 The procedures for the whole project were 3 written in Oak Ridge. They weren't written up here in i
4 Platteville at the plant by people at the plant; they were 5 written by a bunch of high-dollar engineers down in Oak 6 Ridge, that had no clue as to what this place was even' i i'
7 like.
8 We -- they sent the procedures up. There was j 9 supposed to be -- one is there was supposed to be a l 4
l 10 commitment from SEG to train'all technicians for 30 days 11 on the new procedures, before we switched over from Fort 12 St. Vrain to SEG decommissioning procedures. That never 13 happened. That is in Ken Zahrt's log book.
14 The staffing problems are in Ken Zahrt's log 15 book. The procedure problems: We were doing a V&V --
16 okay, a verification and validation -- on the surveys --
17 or on the -- I am sorry; not surveys -- on the procedures, l l
18 sending them -- I mean, just -- they were so bloody, the 19 procedures had red marks all over them. They were I 20 unworkable; they were ridiculous. Ken Zahrt went over and i
21 told Ed Parsons and Dick Sexton that we could not work l
22 with these; these are ridiculous.
23 Well, evidently, what Ed did with it, I am not 24 real sure. But the word came back from Don Neely as, Damn 25 it, I spent a million and a half dollars on these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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1 procaduros; you quit your V&V right now end work with l 2 them.
3 Well, come August, we took over. We were
)
4 using Fort St. Vrain procedures. We turned around -- on 5 December 14, I think, the decommissioning order was 6 signed. We switched to our procedures, and we had tried i
7 from June to December to get procedures changed. '
i l
8 And I don't remember the guy's name that was '
9 doing the procedure changes, but it took us -- if we put a 10 temporary change in and then we would put a DCN in on the 11 procedure, it would take us anywhere from six to twelve 12 weeks to get that procedure turned around.
i 13 Now, you have got an operational health ;
14 physics program with a group of proc'edures that don't 15 work. Again, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure 16 out what it is going to do and what it is going to mean.
17 It is going to mean a lot of money lost on a project that 18 was doomed financially basically from the onset.
19 But with the procedure problems now, Don Neely 20 knew every damn thing about those procedures. He signed 21 them. Whether or not he read them, I don't know. I would 22 find it hard to believe that he didn't, but, you know, 23 that is the whole thing;.you know, we were suppressed.
24 o All right. Let me boil this down. So what it 25 comes down to is they used procedures that they had paid a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE"JE. N W.
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J 1 lot of monay for to develop, and at thtt point, dreidtd 2 they were going to use those procedures no matter what, 1
3 even though it was your view that those procedures didn't j 4 fill the bill. They weren't appropriate for the work at 5 hand, i l
i i 6 A Uh-huh. I 7 Q Is that it?
l 8 A Right, basically. !
9 Q What is the third example? !
( 10 A I am thinking.
11 O I know what it was. It had to do with the i
- 12 friskers that Ted Borst wanted you to start using. This 4
13 is for removable surveys. Is that what it is?
14 A This is for release surveys, release surveys i 15 for like stuff going into the dumpster that is going to 16 become -- garbage truck come on site and take it out. It I l
17 is clean, clean trash. We were using BC-4s and Tennlec, 18 which are highly shielded, v6ry sensitive instruments.
i 19 Q This is portable survey instruments.
20 A Well, Tennlec, no. Tennlee is a big, multi- l 21 smear counter.
22 Q Right.
23 A The BC-4 is about the size of a bread box, but 24 about that tall. It is like a frisker in a box, but it is 25 digital, and it has background subtract on it. But the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 2000$ (202) N
58 4
1 whole idea behind the whole thing was that NK raised a 2 stink, that it was taking too darn long to get all the ;
1 i
3 trash out, because you have to count each smear for a 4 minute. Underneath the frisker, you know, you don't see 1
l 5 any meter deflection in 15, 20 seconds, nothing, very low 6 sensitivity.
7 Well, Ted Borst came out with a memo, and it 8 is on site somewhere. I am sure it would be in public l
9 records or public documents, that said that we would no 10 longer use -- and had sent it to Kenny, I believe, or sent i
11 it up through Kenny -- to not use the Tennlec in the BC-4s 1 l
12 anymore, but to release material using friskers.
13 And that is another thing that is in Kenny's 14 log book, because it is a direct violation of 10 CFR 20 15 for release of material to the general public. l 16 0 Why is that?
I l
17 A You are not using the lowest sensitivity, not I
18 using the minimum sensitivity. The procedure says, Zero l
l 19 detectable. You cannot determine zero detectable using a 20 frisker. Can't do it; it is impossible.
I l
21 Q Are you telling me that there is not the 22 detecti'on sensitivity to measure a thousand DPM by 100 l 23 square centimeters removable or 5,000 DPM for 100 square 24 centimeters fixed?
25 A Well, that is why with a frisker that your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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1 limit is 1,000 DPM per hundrad sqdtre centimotors. Th t "
l 2 is why with a -- if you use a fris'<er and you look at a 3 survey form, you will see less than 1K, less than 1K, less 4 than 1K. If they use a Te.nnlec or a BC-4, it will say, 5 28, 56, 87, 44.
6 d Well, I don't understand why you say that you 7 couldn't meet regulatory limits using a frisker. ;
8 A Because it says that it has to be the most 9 sensitive instrument available for release of material.
10 Okay. Now, the thousand -- I am looking specifically at 11 Fort St. Vrain. The procecures said, the proposed 12 decommissioning plan said, Zero detectable for everything 13 released off-site.
i 14 That doesn't mean 2 DPM. That means no DPM.
1 15 Everything -- in other words, all smears counted have to '
i 16 be less than background. We raised all kinds of stink j 17 about it, and I will tell you what I got told: Shut up 18 and do yonr job.
19 And, I mean, you know, again, there is the 20 beating your head against the wall. How long do you beat 21 your head against the wall before it hurts?
22 A Yes. I am not sure I quite track with this in 23 that it is not uncommon for licensees to use a frisker.
24 '.Hy frisker, I take it you are meaning a pancake --
25 sh elded pancake probe survey instrument --
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1 A RM-14. j l
l 2 Q --
to see if you -- yes. An RM-14, to see if i l
3 you see anything above background or not. ,
That is not i i
4 uncommon for release surveys, and that meets -- generally I l
5 meets -- I am not that familiar with the Fort St. Vrain i
6 application and decommissioning -- i i
7 A What you need to read -- )
l 8 0 -- and so on --
9 A -- is the release criteria in the PDP. l 10 Release criteria --
11 Q PDP?
l 12 A Proposed decommissioning plan, and then you 13 also need to read the release criteria in the 14 decommissioning plan.
i l
15 O So you are saying that the criteria that was l
l 16 in the decommissioning plan was more limiting than what 17 ordinarilf is true of facilities. It is more limiting l 18 than 1,000 DPM per hundred square centimeter removable or l
l 19 the 5,000 DPM fixed limits.
l 20 A Right. The limits are not what is in 21 question. I agree that the limit is 1,000 DPM. However, f
l 22 I mean, if you have a limit of 1,000 DPM,. yes, you can l
23 see - it is questionable. The point of the code is to I 24 make utilities and make health physics programs look 25 harder, not go che easier route. They are making them go NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) N WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 234 4433
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. oA .)
1 4
tho harder route. I i
l 2 And I agree with it. I always have. You 3 know, if you have a frisker and you have got a fluctuation 4 of background and you are sitting there trying to count j l
5 smears and the needle is doing this, boy, that is real l 6 hard -- that is real easy to tell if it is 1,000 DPM. l l
7 Now, you have got a digital thing that is l
8 shielded all over the place; you stick some smears in, and i I
9 you get a printout, and it says -- and it is calibrated l
1C properly; it says, Yes, okay; they are all less than l
11 1,000. Boom. Send it out. There is absolutely no l i
12 question.
l 11 And that is the point of the code. I don't --
j 14 I used to have all my CFRs, and I never got any of that 15 stuff back when I left the plant.
)
16 O Well, okay. But you are saying then that the 1
l'i frisker method did not allow you the sensitivity. !
1 1
18 A Right.
19 Q And admittedly I understand that it didn't 20 allow you the sensitivity that you had before. But my 21 only question is: Still and all, the frisker method would 22' appear to have enabled you to meet the 1,000/5,000 23 criteria.
24 A By 10 CFR; not by PDP.
25 Q. Okay. It would have -- all right. Because NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRl8ER9 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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62 1 the plcn w s more concarvative thnn what most of the 2 regulations were.
3 A There -- if you talk to.15 of'the people that 4 do the same thing that you do back in Arlington, that have 5 health physics background, I guarantee you, you would 6 probably get about half and half that will argue for that, 7 and half that will argue against it. You talk to HP 8 nupervisors --
9 Q About using the frisker?
10 A Yes. About the thousand DPM and the 11 sensitivity, what is the act ual minimum detectable for a 12 frisker. I mean, you can talk to registered health 13 physicists and they will argue it back and forth.
14 Q Now, this is clean trash that is being 15 surveyed?
16 A This is stuff that is coming out of the 17 reactor building. This is stuff that there has been no 18 cmearable on it, that they didn't find any smearable. I 19 mean, it could be this uv.ebook that was on the refuel 20 floor, you know, that is trash. I mean, you are surveying 21 it, and, boom, they want to throw it in the dumpster.
22 Q Okay. '
23 A Okay. One other thing as far as the intent --
24 and I don't know where it came from, and I don't know who 25 to blame or to make you -- or who to have you guys look NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOF. ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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_ . . _ . . _ _ . . . _ _ _ _ . _ _ . _ . . - _ _ _ - _ _ _ - _ _ _ - ~ . -
l 1 for. okcy. Two other things actually, end they will go 2 real quick:
3 All throughout the Stiers, Anderson, Malone 4 report, there are three individuals that are named:
5 myself, Mike Miles, and Ken Zahrt. All through my 6 deposition, they are named. All through Ken's deposition, 1
7 Mike and I are named. I was the day shift supervisor; he 8 was the night shift supervisor. I 1
l 9 When we would get onto the survey issue, Mike 10 was a night shift supervisor. His name on all the stuff 11 that Malone threw in front of the desk at me during my 12 inquisition, Mike Miles's name was over every bit of it,
- 3 as much or more than mine.
j 14 And then we got the MORT report that says, Ed 15 Parsons and Dick Sexton. Well, Ken is fired. I was, in 16 my opinion,. forced to resign. Okay. Mike Miles has been 17 promoted. Dick Sexton has been promoted. And Ed Parsons 18 has been promoted.
19 There was an awful lot of intent to deceive on 20 SEG's part, because it was a vindictive act, and SEG got 21 rid of the sacrific'ial annotes. But if blame is to blame, 22 then blame should be equal among all.
23 I mean, it is like Ken and I talk, and he 24 says, you know, If I was going to get fired, :. n Dick 25 Sexton, Ed Parsons, Mike Miles, Chip Sawyer, and Ken Zahrt NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) N
)
-- : - -.-.. ..-.' ~ . - . . _.,- . ....- .
1 chould hava cll gotten fired, bacnuco wa wara all 2 management. ,
1 3 So -- and then the other thing that in my 4 opinion was PSC's intent to deceive is that harassment and 5 intimidation that I filed against Stiers, Anderson, 6 Malone,' that thing was bruer.td under the carpet so bloody 7 f st that it --
that thing had flames on its tail. I have ,
1 8 never received any word from Public Service. I have tried j 9 probably 20 times in the last year to find out where that j 10 report was, to get a response for that report.
11 If you filed harassment charge against 12 Jonathan in your own company, there would be an i
13 investigation and something would happen, and I am sure ]
14 you would. receive word as to what actions or nothing going j 15 on.
1 16 You know, I mean, it was almost facetious to 17 think that Stiers, Anderson, Malone would step on site and l 18 that nobody would get hammered. You knew darn well they 39 didn't get paid $350,000 to come on site and tell PSC 20 everything is hunky-dory. Anybody that thought that was 21 stupid. So --
22 O So you filed a charge that the Stiers, 23 Anderson, Malone team --
24 A Actually I filed it against Mr. Malone, Mark 25 Malone.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT R'cPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 Ar400E ISLAND AVENUE N W.
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1 Q Okny.
2 A I filed it with -- what the heck was his name?
3 Don Warembourg. '
4 O Okay. That --
5 A I felt harassed in my meetings. He badgered 6 me the entire time. I would ask him not to ask me,'you 7 know, certain questions or ask me, you know, certain ways 8 that were offensive or bothersome to me. He continued on 9 and on. And finally I just said, Fine; I am done; I am 10 out of here.
11 Q Well, I mean, did he harass and intimidate ycu 12 to the extent that you were -- were you being coerced to ,
13 ccmpromise safety in regard to how you did your work or 14 how you were to testify?
15 A I couldn't answer the questions straight. Not 16 " straight." I couldn't answar the questions like we are 17 sitting here talking. I mean, you know, it was nothing 18 more than just -- he kept pummelling me, literally just 19 pummelling me with garbage, and I know one thing that I 20 put in the thing, in the accusation or the report, the H&I 21 report, was that --
22 I mean, you know, he was using -- and my 23 attorney at the time, you know, he was usit ;J what my 24 attorney called law school tricks: asking me the same 25 question six or seven times, I mean, within a span of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (200 2344433 WASHINGTON. O C 20005 (202) 2344433
66 1 about three minutes, to see if, you know, I was going to 2 change my answer.
3 And I told him after about the third time, 4 Look, Mr. Malone, you have already asked me that question 5 three other times. I am not going to' change my isswer, so
]
6 stop asking me that question. What does he do? He l 7 con,tinues through four more times, coming in this door, 8 coming in this door, coming in up here, you know.
. 9 And I mean, it just -- I walked out of those l
10 meetings every day fit to be tied, just because -- I mean, 11 again, I emphasize the fact I could not sit -- I did not, 12 through any of my -- through the Stiers, Anderson, Malone 12 inquisition, si: and :sik like I am talking to you two.
I 14 And that ccmpromised to be quite honest with j I
15 you -- and I told Warembourg this. That compromised the 16 value of my' testimony. And then over the last year, I 17 have tried to find out what happened. I can't find out 18 anything. Nobody knows anything about that or any 19 harassment charge. Nobody knows anything about any 20 harassment charge at all, you know.
21 So, you know --
22 MR. CAIN: Probably, Jonathan, aren't we about 23 to the point where we can move on to talking about those 2d other two kinds of records?
25 MR. ARMENTA: Yes. I don't have any more NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR$ERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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I 1
1 quantions, cnd m2yb3 it would ba e. good placa to tcka c 2 break.-
3 MR. CAIN: I think that is great.
l l
4 MR. ARMENTA: 2:15, we will take a break. l 5 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
6 MR. AKMENTA: It is approximately 3:35 (sic].
7 We are back on record. The reason why we went off record 8 was to take a record.
9 THE WITNESS: If it matters, it is 2:35.
1 1
10 MR. ARMENTA: I am sorry. It is 2:35. I am l l
11 giving the wrong time.
12 THE WITNESS: I will go right into the next 13 issue that we talked about at the beginning, because it !
l 14 is -- you know, we have been at it an hour and a half, and 15 I am pretty much done other than a few things, plus the 16 questions that you had.
17 As far as the release surveys -- and j 18 throughout the Stiers, Anderson, Malone report, I guess we' 19 coined them the Bixby surveys. Okay. I really don't have 20 much knowledge of what was done. Okay. And I believe 21 that is exactly what I told Malone when he showed me the 22 surveys.
23 You know, I did not review them. Mr. Zahrt 24 reviewed them. After, you know, we looked into it and, 25 you know, stuff was going on, you know, the surveys were, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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1 to the bcst of my knowledge, transcrib d out of tha 1cval 2 1 log book.
3 Okay. What we did, as a little background to 4 this, what we tried to do at that time was the background 5 was low enough down on level 1 in the basement, okay, of 6 the reactor building that we could perform release surveys 7 down there, put them in a big hopper, put them in a big 8 skid, take them up, survey the skid, the externals of the 9 skid, put them on a truck, and take them right out the 10 truck bay, again like before, with some of the other.
11 I mean, the truck bay was a very focal point 12 of getting things in and out of the reactor building, so 13 that is why those release surveys were done. Mr. Bixby l 14 was -- is a unique individual, but if Jim says that he 15 does a survey, I believed him as a supervisor. There is i
16 very few people that I would ever check up on them. I 17 A couple of them -- you know, I mean, it is !
18 irrelevant, but Bixby was.not one of the technicians that i
19 I would check up on.
20 That is really -- I mean, I never, to the best 21 of my knowledge, told Dixby to do the surveys or to 22 fabricate -- I guess, " fabricate" is'not the right word.
23 I will cancel that -- transpose from a log book to a 24 survey form. Okay.
25 If at any time during this section or the next NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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1 eaction that I m da a mieteka, it wao the micteko of not 2 putting down that these surveys were performed, these 3
1 surveys were transposed from a log book to a survey data 4 form. And if that is my fault, then I will take that hit, l 5 and I will admit to that.
6 But I do not ever remember telling Mr. Bixby l
7 to transpose these surveys. Okay. And, I mean, I believe 8
really that is exactly what I told Stiers, Anderson, 9 Malone..
10 BY MR. CAIN:
11 Q So you are telling me that you don't have any 12 knowledge that any of these -- this survey data was 13 transposed.
14 A Well, I do now, because it came out in the 15 Stiers, Anderson, Malone report.
16 O But at the time that it occurred, you were not i
17 a party to this --
l 18 A Not that I can re'all,'no.
c 19 Q Okay.
20 A Not that I can recall, no. And, again, I read 21 my NOV letter again, and it doesr.'t say anything about 22 those.
23 Q Yes.
24 A Mine are the RWP surveys.
, 25 O RWPs. Yes.
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1 A And I cm being very honact with you. You 2 know, I have read Ken's NOV letter, and he has read mine.
3 Q That doesn't surprise us. The release surveys 4 were the same kind of surveys that we talked about earlier 5 in terms of the hot --
6 A. Hot service facility?
7 Q Right.
8 A Right.
9 Q Yes. It is the same kind of form?
10 A No.
11 O No? Different form?
1 1
12 A Yes. Because -- I shouldn't say yes. The I 13 survey that I used for the hot service facility block was 14 what they call a blank survey form. It has got all the 15 header on it and the column down the side for your 16 smearable and all the little goofy notes all over the 17 bottom, and it is just a big blank page in the middle.
18 And you can draw what you want or write what 19 you want or whatever. Now, we adapted or adopted a 20 survey -- a release form, okay, release -- I don't 21 remember exactly what it was called, but it had a bunch of 22 columns and lines, so that you could write down, you 23 kr.:w -- so you didn't have to write up a one-page survey 24 fcr all day long. Okay. Because during the day, we would 25 xeep a release form down at, say, the reactor building NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPOATERS AND TAANSCAiBEAS 1323 AHODE ist.AND AVENUE. N W 202i 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20006 (202) 2344433
II truck bay.
I ~ would send somebody down in the morning, and
-h+y would take all the instruments that needed to be down 4 there and the instrument guy would go down and source-5 check early in the morning, go down and source-check the 6 permanently installed ones down there, the ones that are 7 permanently assigned.
8 If I sent a technician or what I used to 9 call -- if I sent a frisking party to the truck bay, okay, 10 four or five people, get a bunch of stuff out, what they 11 would do is this form or forms would be down there, and we 12 would just -- and as they went along and released, you 13 know, 15 pieces of scaffold pole -- you know, they would 14 break 15 scaffold pole, and had a responsible supervisor, i
15 blah, blah, blah; it would be just a bunch of superfluous j 16 columns on it, that procedure dictated that we have on it.
17 Well, I mean, it had a lot, so you could write 18 a lot of what was released. You know, one skip pan full 19 of scrap metal, you know, approximately 3,000 pounds of 20 scrap metal. I mean, that is a for-instance. And like I 21 said, instead of having a big blank page, it had a bunch 4
22 cf ^ines and a bunch of columns.
. I't was a big table.
- - . Okay.
14 A And that is -- now, in some cases, some
'E r + :Pn:cians , :f they went out to do one specific thing to NEAL R. GROSS COUAT REPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBE AS 1323 AMODE (SLAND AVENUE N W 202) 23J4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
l 1 release it from a different area or rolecca it from a room -t 2
- cr -- you know, the main exit points from the reactor !
3 cu:16:ng were the reactor building truck bay and obviously ,
l
\
l 4 access control. That was the normal personnel exit. l 1
5 But obviously sometimes people would bring 6 their to'ols out, and we would have to release those tools, 7 you know, at the end of. the day or during the day. Other 8 areas, certain individuals may go release something on a 9 one-time basis or just a truck. Now, there are specific 10 survey forms for trucks. There were specific survey forms
(
11 for other things.
I 1
12 And if you didn't have a specific survey form '
13 f o r i *:. and you didn't put it on the release log, then you !
14 tak.e a blank survey form and just make a verbal survey.
15 You know, I --
and have your name and everything up 16 there -- released 42 empty pallets, all less than 1,000 l 17 DPM smearable, all less than 100.CCPM per probe area. And 18 then sign it and turn it in for review.
19 So that is basically all I know about -- all 20 that I can remember about that. I mean, obviously I know 21 what --
I am trying to put myself back at the Stiers, 22 Anderson, Malone. I mean, I know what all the Bixby 23 surveys were about now, you know, a year and a half or 24 almcst two years la.er. Yes. I know what they are about.
- 5 But, I mean, c'ack then did I? No. And I I
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. ._..c-.__
. . -_., - . .. . . . u.- .c. .. . .. 3 . . . - . . wiu wu .
l
'. r+ erber telling Bixby, and 1 know Bixby told Stiers,
. d e r s t r. , and Malone that ~ ti d him to do it. OF.ay . But 4 in talking to Ken Zahrt, Ken says, Baloney". He said, I am 5 the one that told him to do it, and that is what he told 6 Stiers, Anderson, and Malone.
7 So, I mean, it was -- you know, I do not 8 honestly remember telling Bixby to do those surveys or,
. 9 you know, to transpose those surveys. I have never, as a 10 matter of record, in my life ever told a technician to 11 fabricate a survey. I have asked a technician -- and this 12 will lead right into the next area -- Did you do a survey
. .: ..:. t h i s item? Yes. Then where in the hell is the
- 4
. paperwork?
15 Well, I forgot to write it up. Well, then I 16 suggest you sit your butt down and write it up. I mean, 17 if a technician said, No, I did not do the survey, you 18 know, I would try at least to make log entry that a survey 19 was not done, and this is not release stuff; this is l l
20 survey on an item.
21 That is an inadequacy that I had at the 22 beginning of the project and that the RWPs had at the c+;;rr. r.g of the prc;ect that did not -- and I as a l 4 , r,-ert:scr had, is that -- and Ken and I both kick i
l i
? .r= elves, because the d:cumentation by the technicians l NEAL R. GROSS l? COURT AEPOATERS AND TAANSCAIBERS l Il '323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W !
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l
- \ stunk. It was pitiful. -
The only thing I can say in retrospect about l
- nelr documentation is tbs: if we should have done 4 anything is we should have written the technicians up for l 5 their poor documentation. It would have covered my butt; l
6 it would have covered his butt, and we would have had i 7 documentation to do this.
8 Intent to deceive -- I had not intent to 9 deceive. If I wanted to deceive the NRC or PSC or SEG at 10 Fort St. Vrain, I could have done a hell,of a lot more. I 11 mean, you know, I am not being facetious; I am being 12 very -- I am not trying to be a smart-aleck. I mean,
- 3 there was a problem. I didn't fix it, or I didn't, you l l
14 know, try and help fix it like others would have. '
15 Would I do it the same way? Would I keep a 1
16 journal? I keep a journal now, owning my own business; I 17 confrontations with -- you know, discussions with 18 customers, whatever. That way I don't forget. Back then, 19 I was so bloody busy, I didn't know whether I was coming 20 or going. I asked for help for me for a year and a half.
21 And as socn as I was made my baloney offer by~SEG, the job 22 that I was doing by myself, there was three people doing 22 -. ::t.
and I asked for help. There was a lot of days i l~' wrue : we r.: :: werk at i:ur c' clock in the morning, and I l
l NEAL R. GROSS I CouAi aEPOATERS AND TRANSCAiBERS 5323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202 2344433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202)2344433
, ~ - - - - . . ~ ==a . .. t ~--z. - ~ ~ ~ ~ - . . -~~--.s ------ -..-,
i
\
herause they were already in bed when I got homa six dcys
- i
. a wee r. . itu know, a r. d am not making excuses, and I am 4 not looking for a, Old poor guy. That is 'just the truth
- 5 of the matter.
6 I would have to go in on Fridays, sometimes 7 Saturdays, sometimes Sundays, because I would be so busy l
8 during the day at times, but yet other days, I was right l 9 there, you know, knocking on the front door at four t
i 10 o' clock in the afternoon.
I 11 You know, those are the days like in that i 12 survey instance, with the hot service facility plug.
1
- There were days that I had time. Yet it is -- to coin an l 14 ald phrase, when it rained, it poured. When I was going l 15 90 miles an hour, I was going 90.
l 16 O Well, now, did Bixby work for you?
17 A Yes. Bixby worked for me. All the 18 technicians worked for me.
19 O Well, didn't you see their survey records?
l 20 Didn't you have to approve or initial off on their survey l
l 21 ' records?
~
A Uh-huh. I am losing your point.
l
? : Well, my point is: Then these -- but you have 4 =a;d tnat you d- dn' t -- you are not aware of any records i ; ;;.3: E;xty --
t
!! NEAL R. GROSS Il CovM AEPORTERS AND TAANSCAIBERS I'
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1
.~.-.. -.._ . - .... . . - . . - . . . . . . _ _ _ .
I
- A He originally put all the --
-- falsified er --
- A :
..:ght. He cr:g:r. ally put all the stuff in his 4 log bock. Okay. I mean, another mistake is that I didn't 5 review all the log books all the time, you know. Just --
6 I very rarely went to level 1. I went to level 1 once a 7 day on my reactor building tour. And, you know, I would 8 look at the log book, and, you know, there was usually 9 very little going on, so I would look at it and skip.
10 0 Well, why is Kenny Zahrt going to know more 11 abcut this issue than you are? Weren't you reporting to 12 Zahrt at this point in time?
- 3 A True.
14 '. So wouldn't the paperwork, wouldn't the survey 15 records have gone from Bixby to you and then maybe up to Zahrt perhaps, or he would have some~ interest in this?
~
16 l
17 But you are telling me that you don't have any knowledge 18 of these release survey records -- !
i 19 A Uh-huh.
9 20 0 -- any discrepancies or problems there at all.
21 Right?
22 A No. I did not remember -- now, like I say, 23 aga n, now I do. It was not a carved-in-stone paperwork 24 :.:w. 5urveys wculd come uc and they would go to the
_E .: .~;m r.g basket, Ar.d :h s was, you know, before we NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPOATE AS AND TAANSCAIBEAS 323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 2021 234.4433 WASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 234 4433
switened access control around end mtde it c lot -- cnd my
.ff;:e was 50wr r;ght at access control.
d Mine and Miles's office was down at access 4 control. Prior to that, Mike Miles's office was up two 5 doors from Kenny's. Kenny's door was right there, ALARA, 6 and Mik Miles' and mine. The entrance to the HP office 7 was right where I am. Come straight up, and you are 8 look'ing right at Ken's door.
9 It was not unlike certain technicians -- Bixby 10 happens to be one of them -- that was a little bit angry 11 that I got promoted to supervisor above him, to bypass the 12 paperwork chain, I guess, is probably the best, to 13 sideline it, just to tick me off.
14 But, you know,.on the other side of that too, 15 it was unlike if somebody needed something signed, you 16 know, and you see Kenny sitting at his desk, are you going 17 to go to Kenny, or are you going to go two doors down 18 where you can't see if I am in my office again?
~
19 You know, and it would go to the incoming 20 basket, and if I was off in the reactor building, a lot of 21 times Kenny would grab -- and he wasn't doing anything, 22 wasn't in a meeting, he would go.to the incoming basket
- - and gra'r all the surveys and sign them and review them.
_4 Now, if I would walk by the incoming basket
_p .u :nsre was a c;le ci surveys -- that was more or less O NEAL R. GROSS I;
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l In the early part of the decommissioning.
Towards tha and i
2 of the decommissioning, the incoming surveys stayed, !
- cecause Kenny was always so busy with meetings with all 4 ene big jobs were going on. The incoming surveys, I 3 5 wouldn't touch a survey. '
6 . Basically what happened was that Mike Miles 7 and I determined between ourselves to help QA -- I would 8 QA night shift; night shift would QA day shift -- is that 4
9 Mike Miles would review day shift surveye; I would review 10 night shift surveys. So basically unless someing was 11 real hot and they needed it for -- something was real 12 important or they needed it for an RWP, I really didn't 13 review too many surveys during the day unless it was real
~
14 important.
15 O So you weren't in a position to where you 16 reviewed a lot of Bixby survey records. Is that what you 17 are-telling me?
1 18 A Sometimes I did; sometimes I didn't. I mean, 19 you know, routines and stuff like that, sure. You know, I 20 mean, it depended on who got to the incoming survey box 21 and who wac bucier and who was -- who had time tu du what. l 22 I mean, you know, certain -- you know, I mean, it was a 23 matter of who is signing RWP.
24 Ycu know, I was the acting RPOS when Ken Zahrt
_: wAs .:: :here. :f Ken was outside the gate, technically NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I
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4 ne ., a s uve unete, ruiu it uney neeueu tu nave on rtwe 2 signad, I signed it. Okay. You know, I would sign it as
,rer RPOS, or for Ken Zahrt, RPOS, whatever.
4 So, I mean, it is not carved in stone as to 5 what --
the flow with the paperwork. I mean, it is really 6 who got there first.
7 Q So that is -- so let me summarize at this 8 point. As I understand it, you at the time never saw --
9 you were unaware of the survey records that were the 10 subject of discussion here, at least in Kenny's NOV.
11 A Right. At that time --
you know, at the time 12 of the investigation, Stiers, Anderson, Malone 13 investigation, I was unaware to the best of my knowledge 14 that that had happened, and that io basically what I told 15 them.
16 And now -- but like I told you, now I know a 17 lot more about them. I also know Bixby said that I told 18 him to do them. I told Zahrt that, and Zahrt said, 19 Baloney; you know, I told him to do it, because we sat and 20 talked.about it. So, I mean --
21 0 Zahrt told him to do what?
22 A To -- I mean, asked him if he did the surveys 2 :- a r.d --asked him if he did the surveys, and then they 24 .eeded to be put on survey forms. That is the extent of
~. -.cwledge, even to this date.
NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND A'/ENUE. N W 202i 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 0 Okay. All right. Let's move on then to tha *
- surveys fcr F.WFs, and as we do that, give us a little
- l :;3 r.prrund on wnat we are alking about here. I know that 4 there i --
5 A It is pretty big.
6 O' Well, there are some general areas surveys 7 that are conducted, and then I think there are -- if I B understand right from reading some background material, 9 that there are some specific surveys to support RWPs. And 10 describe to us, you know, just first off, just what kind 3
11 of surveys it is that the Stiers, Anderson, Malone report 12 states were falsified.
13 Give us the background information that we 14 need to understand what kind of surveys and what kind of 15 records is the subject here.
16 A well, obviously my knowledge about it now is 17 again the same as the Bixby surveys, a lot more, you know, j i
18 having talked '. various different people about, you know, 19 what was said. And at the time of the Stiers, Anderson, 20 Malone report, I did not remember a whole fat lot about I 21 what was done.
- I mean, like I had told you before, talking to
- I p+-
- p'e and asking people, I do specifically remember
_4 .wc;r.g technicians, Cid you perform this su'rvey; where is i
_i i , = r /+v f:r t his , ycu ancw; I know you did a survey. I 1
i NEAL R. GROSS court AEPOATE AS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202 234 4433 WASmNGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
e a r. , you know, : am up and down in the building a lot all iay 1cng, ar.d : see them doing a routine survey, see them i
- I : ._:.c a co-spe c. f ic survey.
l 4 But then, all of a sudden, you know, a week 5 later, seven or eight days later, you know, looking at '
6 other records or looking at some paperwork and wondering 7 how come on a job-specific RWP I have no survey 8 documentation in the RWP folder -- that is basically where 9 it started is that.
10 And in the Stiers, Anderson, Malone report, it 11 says that Duane Parsons was doing independent audit.
12 Bull. He was doing his job; it wasn't an independent 13 audit. He was n5t assigned to do the audit by anyone. He 14 was doing his job, which was very rare.
15 But the individual found that we had some 16 inadequacies in our RWP program. RWP -- a job-specific 17 RWP, r.0 a routine RWP. Okay. Routine RWPs could be, you 18 know, the_ areas were surveyed, you know, on a daily basis, 19 the daily survey, you know, for the refuel floor or the 20 reactor building, or the weekly surveys for the reactor 21 bu '_ ding, you know, would suffice. There is'not any real 22 c
'ad areas or anything like that. General access RWPs.
- - : ?. r, -
24 These are really kind of a moot point. Job-
_5 lsp+:.i; RWPs -- see, .ere ;s another thing that -- and on i
{ NEAL R. GROSS l COVAT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCAiBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202: 234-4433 A A$MINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
- - - -- - 1 i
1 the RWP, a job-sp0cific RWP, it has curvoy rcquircm:nte, j
/ u know, daily, weekly, menthly, you know, breach, c:r.tamination, airborne. You know, it basscally went over 4 and listed what type of surveys that I --
5 When they got ready to write the RWP, they l 1
6 would come to me or Zahrt or Miles and say, you know, What
]
'I kind of survey do you want this; either that or they would i 8 bring the prepared RWP, you know, a photocopy of it from L
9 the screen or just a plain paper before they put it on the !
10 big -- the regular, multi-form, and we would pencil in l 11 what kind of survey requirements we wanted and rely or go l 12 on procedure.
- 3 Well, we found a lot of RWPs that were 14 inadequate, missing surveys. Well, we went through them 15 and started looking and seeing where we had people logged 1
16 in. We knew that we had to have a survey. l l
17 Q When did you find these missing surveys?
18 A Oh, lord, I don't remember when. I mean, I 19 don't have a time frame at all. I mean, I -- '94 --
20 0 This was early '93?
21 A Three, I guess. Early '93 sometime.
22 O All right.
23 A They said -- you know, Mike Miles and I sat
.4 down, and we 1: ked at them all. And, you know, that is 25 what gets me is, you know, I didn't do anything more or NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W
- 202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433 l
less than Mike Miles. And yet I cm sitting here telking
. /:u; he is tut at the plant working. Very sore point.
But -.
let me get my train of thought going 4 here again. As we found out RWPs were missing surveys, on i
5 job-specific surveys, you know, if they were people in on !
l l
, 6 night shift, you know, I would say, Mike -- when Mike and I 7 I were going over these, Mike Miles, we would have to look 8 at these things and say, This is what needs to be done. j i
9 I would go through and Mike went through and l 10 looked. Now, a lot of times -- let's take the refuel 1
11 floor, for instance, very large area. You are familiar )
12 with how big it is. There could be numerous job-specific ,
l 13 3cbs going on on that refuel floor at any one time in the 14 general area. l 15 Okay. They could be prepping; they could be 16 building scaffolding, clean scaffolding that is brought in i
17 to a contaminated area, but it is a job-specific RWP. The i 18 routine survey suffices for that RWP. That was a 19 determination that was made by me, Mike Miles, and Ken 20 Zahrt. ,
i 21 And here is another little one for your notes: '
22 Dick Sexton about all of that, because Dick Sexton sat in 22 :".e effice, and we explained to him what I was doing.
4 lAnd. .tu <now, there was a couple of times that I
-- ...:. ssec w;th Dick Sexten wnat -- you know, why can't I l, 'i NEAL R. GROSS f COVAT REPORTERS AND TRANSCAiBERS I 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202s 234-4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
\
l
- use a general -- or a general survey,.a daily survey on I the refuel floor. They are building scaffolding.
The thing is --
and here is an, inadequacy in 4 myself -- is that I did not, one -- there should have been 5 RORs written is what there should have been, but hindsight l 1
6 is always 20-20 -- okay -- on the problems. Hindsight is l 7 always 20-20.
8 O RORs on what?
l 9 A On the problems that we found. The RORs 10 should have been written. You know, they would have been l
l 11 processed; they would have been documented, processed, and l l
\
12 boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would have been done.
i 13 Okay.
14 I made no bones. Mike didn't sneak around; 1
15 Ken didn't sneak around; technicians didn't. Nobody snuck 16 around and --
17 0 What kind of problem are you talking about?
18 A The fact that the RWPs -- all right. I have 19 got this RWP right here. Okay. It says, Johnny is 20 supposed to go up and fix this pencil. Okay. Well, he 21 goes up. It is a job-specific RWP; it has got a real 22 limited time. Okay. It expires; the job is done; it gets l
25 stuffed into its file with the sign-in sheets. It gets l
a uffed --
I E We p: bar?. and we look at it. Well, I look '
NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPORTERS AND TAANSCRIBERS
'323 AMODE ISL AND AVENUE N W 202i 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 234-4433 l
r
. ~ . . . . .. . u v. u . .e outvey tequuemeitw , estu u. scyo , start c
- cb, you know -- whatever it says for survey requirements.
But I look n the folder, and there is an RWP cover sheet; 4 there is a sign-in sheet; there is a Digi-Dose record.
5 There is no survey.
6 Then I go to the technician or Mike Miles goes 7 to the technician or Ken Zahrt goes to the technician. I 8 know you guys did this survey; you are the one -- I know 9 you did the survey, you know. Darrell, I know you did the 10 survey; you were assigned to cover the job; did you do the 11 survey. Yes. Well, where is it? Oh , I forgot to write 12 it up.
13 Well, you know, you have to remember, you 14 know, log book entries or whatever. Like I said, it is --
15 I hope you don't think I am getting frustrated with you.
16 It is just bringing back up all this garbage again. I am 17 trying to maintain calmness here.
18 0 Well, now, do you remember an occasion where 19 then there was a sit-down session to recreate record or 20 create survey records for surveys that have been conducted 21 weeks before?
22 A I don't ever remember a sit-down session. I 23 ?.e a n , it is net like me or Ken or Mike, you know, pulled
- 4 ai; the day shift and all the night shift technicians in 25 a
- .d sa;d, Hey, look, guys, here is 15 surveys that we NEAL R. GROSS CdVAT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBE AS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W 202)2344433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 need; hare is 15 surve that we need; throw the paper on 2 the table and say, r :. Sich one you want and make them
- up.
4 Q Well, okay.
5 A I never did that.
6 Q. All right. .Let me ask then another question.
l i
7 Were there ever requests for somebody to fill out survey !
l 8 forms for surveys they had conducted weeks before?
.9 A If they were the individual that performed the !
i i
10 survey, yes. I 11 Q And how would they prepare that survey form?
12 Would they do that from their log book?
l 13 A I don't know.
14 O Well --
15 A I mean, I don't know. I can speculate.
16 Either log book -- I mean, you know, I could write up a 17 survey probably right now on the hot service facility 18 block, and it has been two and a half, three. years since I 19 have done it. You know, I could write it up. I mean, the 20 only thing that would be -- and I notice it is in my NOV 21 lettez; it is in the Stiers, Anderson, Malone report, is 1
22 that instrumentation -- you know, that is garbage.
22 You know the date that you did the survey; you 24 have :he instruments that you logged out for that day and
- 5
- he .e:hn cians log out instruments in the morning, and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTEAS AND TAANSCAIBE AS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W i20212344433 WASHINGTON D C 2W5 (202) 2344433
I they log them back in in the afternoon. Thay got that 2 :..s:rument for all day long; they tote it around on their 3 s;de all day long. .
4 It is no real tough to figure out what 5 instrument you used to survey something. I mean, you 6 know, that is why I am saying, is, I mean, the thing that 7 Stiers, Anderson, Malone and you guys came across with is 8 the intent to deceive. There was no intent to deceive.
9 Did we screV some things up and did we have to 10 work with adversity? You bet your butts we did, you know, 11 and I mean, I am willing to take, you know, my hits, but 12 there was no intent to deceive. You know, where that 13 comes up with, you know, I mean, that gives me the 14 impression that, you know, I have got a bunch.of suits and 15 ties sitting around, saying, Uh-oh; we will use these big 16 words on these guys.
17 You know, it is just --
18 Q Were there any --
19 A It gets me.
20 0 -- any entries that were made on these forms 21 that were --
22 A That said that it was a reproduction --
23 0 -- just best guesses on --
24 A No.
25 0 I mean, you had c put in things like NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202 2344433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 23d-4433 1
1 instruments and their model numbers mayba or their seriel 2 r.urbe rs . I don't knew what was on -- whether these
- required entries on the form or the -- -
4 A Model number?
5 0 -- calibration date and all this stuff. -
6 I mean, if you were asked like you just said 7 to' prepare a survey record for a survey that you did two 8 months ago or three months ago, you wouldn't have that 9 information memorized. Where would you get it from?
10 A Instrument room, instrument sign-out log.
11 0 So you are saying that you could go back and 12 find sources of information that would allow you to 13 accurately recreate a survey or to create a survey record 14 for a survey that you did a couple of months ago, and the 15 information you put down would be accurate and truthful. l
~
16 A Uh-huh.
17 0 Okay.
18 A When you sign the bottom of that survey, that 19 is what you say, and that is what gets me with the intent 23 to deceive, is that -- you know, at no time did I ever ask 21 a technician or have I ever asked a technician to falsify, 22 make this up. I don't care if you didn't do it; I need a 23 survey on this. Well, that has already gone. Well, gee, 24 ..: s;dding; figure it cut, you kno,w. And, no. I am not II : Tin? :: -- : never did that. : never would do that.
NEAL R. GROSS Coif *EPORTERS ANO TRANSCRIBERS 321'dHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 2C2 2344433 w ASH NGTON D C 20C)05 (202) 234-4433
l
_ am admitting wholeheartedly to asking a
-"--'an, itu :cvered this RWP because you have got the
.li :.WF , you have got tne Digi-Dose.
11 Ycu can look at the ,
4 Cigi-Dose, and you can say, Yes, there is the HP right 5 there, because on the job-specific, he had to sign in on 6 the RWP on the job-specific.
7 You look and you say. Okay, Darrell; Darrell, 8 where is the survey for this RWP? Did you do it? Well, 9 of course. Oh, shoot, I forgot to document it.
10 Q Do most of these guys when they -- or 12 technicians, when they perform a survey, they are not down 12 there with a survey form filling it out, read the
- 3
- nstrument, fill out the form. They are probably -- they
_4 nave got a scrap of paper or a log book or something they 1
15 use as a preliminary means of recording this data with the 16 intent that later on, they are going to transfer the data i 1
1
- 7 off the log -- out of the log book or the scrap of paper, !
18 onto the final record survey sheet.
19 Is that an accurate description of the 20 process?
- 2. A I would say that is an accurate description of
- ,tre'r ably 99 percent of the HPs in the country.
- :- ', Okay. So if a technician is requested to fill
'. 4 .ut -"e
. survey f:rm a .onth er two later, then from what I
ill ;r+ te _ing -e, .e .as get access to all the
!i l NEAL R. GROSS k COURY AEPORTE AS ANO TAANSCRIBERS l 1323 AHOOE ISLAND AVENUE N w j 2:2, mm33 **s ,~o10N O C zwos <2on m-33
- inf rmation that he has got to fill out the form. He has gc his log book; he has got the --
A It might be in different places. 'Yes. I 4 mean, he is not going to necessarily put it in his log 5 book all the time. Like take myself, for instance. I 6 always carried a little DayPlanner, little pocket 7 DayPlanner.
8 0 Okay.
9 A I mean, a lot of guys carry three-by-fives; a 10 lot of guys carry little block brains, little flip 11 notebooks. Okay. I mean, and then if you guys look at 12 the intent to deceive, okay, they are saying that this is
- wrong.
14 Answer me this: I am a health physics 15 technician, and it is five o' clock in the afternoon or six
~
16 o' clock in the afternoon, and I was supposed to get off at 17 4:00. I have got all my stuff scribbled down on a piece 18 of cardboard from the back of a smear box, got it all 19 scribbled down. Okay.
20 I go home, put it in my -- survey is done, 21 okay, but I am so damn tired, I want to go home. Night 22 shift is here; nobody is in the office. I stuff that in
- - my desk. I get up the next morning; I feel like garbage.
- .; '
- -- :e .crning :s Friday, so I call in sick. Saturday we
_i i.- If Enday we are :ff Y.cnday inorning, I come in NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCAlBERS 13/3 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W
.202, 2M 4433 w ASmiNGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
and write up the survey. Monday is now the 14th, but I j 1
Sctually did the survey on the loth, so I put the 10th.
l
. Yes. That is fine. '
4 A Absolutely no difference; no different.
5 0 Okay. Let's go back to the basic definitions. l 6
One of.the terms that we didn't like to use when we 7 started this afternoon was " falsify." l
\
1 8 -
A Falsify, uh-huh. i 9 O But let's go back and talk about what 10 " falsify" means. A falsified record is one that has false !
11 information on it, that this entry is not true; it is not 12 verifiable from facts. I mean, there is not any basis for 13 this information. In other words, if I fabricate or 14 falsify a survey instrument, serial number or model 15 number, it is because I am just pulling a number out of 16 the air, and there is not any foundation for that number.
I 17 That is a falsified entry.
l 1
18 But what you are telling me, if I understand 19 you correctly is that these -- all the data that was used 20
~
for these survey forms did have a basis or had a source. l l
Il ! could back either to this sheet of paper, this log book, '
22 this 3-by-5 card in my pocket, or I could go back to the
- 2. ; r.s t rument check-out lab or whatever you call it, and get
_4
- ". e data frcm their infcrmation. .
2-l ! .- cther x r$s, : could --
l! NEAL R. GROSS Coynt AEPORTE AS AND TAANSCAIBERS l '323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W
! 202e 2344433 l WASMINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433 l l
1 1 A Instrument source-check log, instrument sign-
- cut .:g.
- O Okay. ,
4 A We have been source-checking instruments, you 5 know, at Fort St. Vrain ever since I have been there, 6 every day.
7 Q So are you telling me then that these RWP 8 survey records that may have been prepared long after the 9 fact were, indeed, as far as you know, accurate in every 10 respect?
11 A Yes. To the best of my knowledge. I mean, 12 again, I mean, I have to put a certain amount of trust in 13 the individuals that work for me, because I can't shadow 14 each one of them, and I can't be on each one of their 15 shoulders all day long.
16 I mean, if -- realizing the consequences for 17 quote, unquote, radioing a survey, pulling numbers and 18 letters and values out of the air, I would fir them if I 19 ever thought they were rar'ioing a survey.
20 0 Okay. Then let me go then to the next point, 21 and that is that if you -- you were on site -- weren't you 22 on site at the time that the Stiers, Anderson, Malone I
23 group started their investigation?
24 A Uh-huh.
5 Ar d you were arrund when some weeks into this i NEAL R. GROSS i COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE #$ LAND AVENUE N W 202l2344433 wASMNGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433 i
. .2 asy= .auv u.2m unau at. vt a s wuuc.. . . . . - - . ~ . . ouc
_ ame up, and that had to do with falsified records.
- A uw nu a.
4 0 How did this -- where did this' report come 5 from? How did this issue surface? What was the source of 6 it? Didn't your management understand what we just got '
7 through talking about, about how documentation is 8 generated? How did this thing ever get started, that 9 there was a problem with falsified records?
10 A This is strictly an opinion, because I don't 11 know -- I know where it came from; I know where the 12 whistleblowers came from, and I will lose that term 13 loosely. Jonathan showed up on site for a harassment-14 intimidation investigation against some -- against M-K 15 Ferguson. Okay.
16 And then to the best of my knowledge, it 17 spawned from there with Keith Bare saying that Ken Zahrt 18 intimidated him and harassed him. Keith Bare and Ken 19 Zahrt had a confrontation in the stairwell in the reactor 20 building on day that was ugly, very nasty as far as 21 language, you know, from v.eith Bare to Ken Zahrt.
I. ; This did nothing but tick Keith Bare off. I 22 r.e a n , it ticked him off something fierce. Now, I mean,
_4 :cv;;usly this is just an opinion, but the progress of
- ecents that : saw or that : suspect is that Keith Bare NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCAiBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202)2344433 *ASMINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 saw --
2 Keith Bare was another one that did not like tne fact that I had been promoted to supervisor. I didn't 4
think I was worth a shit as a supervisor, to be quite 5 honest with you, but I didn't think he was worth a darn as 6 a technician either, so we had an equal basic hatred for 7 each other.
8 But the bottom line was that he worked for me, 9 and he did not like that. He did anything and everything 10 in his power to avoid work, to avoid doing his job, and to 11 make my life difficult, and to make Ken Zahrt's life 12 difficult.
13 He moved on and on and on and on to try and 14 get -- to try and screw me and Lerew Ken Zahrt, to be 15 quite honest with ym. And that is my honest opinion. I 16 really feel that is where it came from. And to be honest 17 with you, Duane Parsons got involved in it, because Keith 18 Bare wasn't smart enough.
19 And Duane Parsons having been the RWP writer 20 and the whole nine yards, he got involved in the -- he got 71 on the gang bandwagon and just went right along, and -- he 22 went right along.
23 Keith Bare saw an opportunity to get back at 24 SE3 r.anagement collectively, and he failed in his quest, .
25 cecause he only got two. 'He didn't get four. But yet --
NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPOATERS AND TAANSCAlBEAS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202i2344433 WASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 234 4433
1 and it was told to me by numerous individuels that ths 2 reascn.that Mike Miles did not get involved in this is 2 cecabse literally because Keith Bare named me and he named 4 Ken Zahrt. He didn't name Mike Miles.
5 But yet any idiot can see in the Stiers, 6 Anderso'n, Malone report, even the documentation that 7 Malone threw in front of me on the table, two-thirds of 8 the signatures were Mike Miles'. But yet through the 9 whole t'hing, he escapes unscathed, because little Mr.
10 Whistleblower didn't name him, and that is another thing.
11 And there is another thing. Ken Zahrt's 1
12 original log book, read the entries in there about the i 13 confrontations with Keith Bare about his program, about 14 the -- I mean, that is where -- and I realize the NRC 15 can't do anything about vindictive acts, but I still say, i 16 and I will go to my grave saying that this was nothing 17 more than a vindictive act.
18 0 The issue of falsification of records.
19 A It WNs done maliciously with interit to harm by 20 Keith Bare and Duane Parsons. And personally I think Mark 21 Zachary was involved with it, but I can't prove that.
22 But I know, because as soon as I stepped foot 2 :- cac< on site that one day, that Friday, as soon as I 24 stepped back on site and those two saw me, they went right 25 :: tneir car, right ever to stiers, Anderson, and Malone, NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPOATERS AND TAANSCRIBEAS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W 202 2344433 WASmNGTON O C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 l . onu unac 2= wuen i got calleo occx in, cno ws startco i
l 2 talking about that block survey. ,
l They kind of just held it back, held it back, 4 didn't say anything about it. I told you already how I 5 feel about that block survey and that I did it, but they 6 held it back, because they thought that they had enough to 7 put the last dagger in. And that is the way I feel, and I 8 will go to my grave feeling that way 9 0 Well, now your management, SEG management, 10 also had an investigation team in regard to this issue.
11 Right?
12 A Uh-huh. The MORT report.
13 0 And they -- you talked to them and 14 explained -- presumably explained this issue to them.
15 A Uh-huh.
16 0 I guess it would have been common 17 D understanding in terms of how survey records are prepared 18 and that just as the scenario you just gave about the 19 person who does a survey on Thursday and doesn't document 20 it until Monday, that is probably not unusual or not 21 unheard of.
22 A Well, it is not unheard of. I think I need to 23 say something, though, is that I am not professing-that 24 wr.a : was done was.the best way. It was probably not the
- ?
l
- n re:: way. , It was net done to deceive. Okay.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 2026 234 4433 W ASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 C In that it wasn't timely.
2 A Right. It was not timely. It was not done to a ceceive; it was not done maliciously by far.
4 0 But the records were accurate. Is that what 5 you would have us understand?
6 A. In my opinion, yes. The records were 7 accurate. They -- I mean, I am an intelligent enough 8 individual. Some of the paperwork that stiers, Anderson, 9 Malone showed me, they had -- when a survey comes in, it 10 gets a number stamped on it. Okay. They have some --
11 they have survey number log, and it goes down. Okay.
12 And then it has the survey number log'that is 13 a stamped number, and then it has a date that it was 14 performed. Well, for Pete's sakes --
and I told Malone 15 this -- if I was trying to hide something or anybody else 16 was trying to hide something, you think you are going to 17 have, you know, 7/12, a bunch of July's, a few August's, j 18 then two February's, and three March's?
I l
19 Oh, come on. When it would be just as easy if l 20 you really wanted to be sneaky about it, to take that 21 piece vf paper, recopy the thing, stamp new numbers on it, 22 and put it in the RWP file, that is intention to deceive.
1: You know, HPs are smart individuals, and they 24 are sr.eaky little SOBS when they want to be, you know.
JE Ar.d t r.a t is the -- I hcpe you don't think I am being a l NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEpOATERS AND TAANSCALBERS 1323 AHODE ISLANO AVENUE N W 202i234 4433 WA$HINGTON O C 20005 (202) 2344433
i smart-aleck, baccuse I am just trying to give you pointo 2 of -- I don't see how the intent to deceive came around.
- SEG management came to an enforcement 4 conference in our office -- and I am talking about Bud 5 Arrowsmith, Don Neely -- and confessed that SEG had 6 falsified records. Why would they have done that? Were 1
7 they misled in making that confession, if, in' fact, it is l
l 8 not true? I 9 A I don't see -- you know, I mean -- !
l 10 0 Because that is a black eye on SEG.
11 A Oh, they deserve a half-dozen more.
12 Q And I don't know if you know it or not --
13 A What? They got the --
14 0 -- but they have a .otice of violation, too, l 15 on this issue.
16 A Right.
17 Q Not only do you and Ken Zahrt have one, but 18 they do too. .
19 A To be quite honest with you, I don't care 20 about SEG. I mean, I am saying, we are talking about me.
21 I mean, what they do and what they did --
22 Q But my question is this, if I can --
23 A Yes. Go ahead.
24 0 -- if I can -- if they knew all of this, if 2- -.ey knew the rationale for how the survey records are NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPORTEAS AND TAANSCAiBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W i20?i 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 1 generated, and if ,their own investigation tecm, including 2 M.r . Policastro came to the conclusion that there really I
- wasn': any truth to the issue of falsification of records, 4 why would SEG management confess that, much to their 5 expense in terms of their reputation, which now they have 6 a notice of violation that is a public record, that I 7 already can predict the response to, because they have B already said in a public enforcement conference that they 9 confess that, yes, their staff was guilty of falsifying 10 records?
< 11 A The only thing that I can say to that, 12 Charles, is that I know that Ken Zahrt admitted to -- with ,
13 the Bixby surveys, that the dates that he signed those 14 surveys were not exact -- were not identical to the date.
15 It wasn't the date that he signed them. Okay.
16 They were -- I mean, if the date was, say, 17 February 15, that he actually sat down and signed those 18 surveys, the date that he put on the survey that he signed 19 it was earlier. Okay.
20 To me -- and I can say this now, because I am 21 not going to be in the industry anymore -- it is a moot ..
l 22 point. What difference does it make what stinking date is 23 :n the bottom of that survey? It doesn't mean a hill of
_A .h :C. S .
_T : Well --
NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPOATERS AND TAANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W 1202i 234-4433 W ASHsNGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433 l
I
. A Now, that -- based on what you cro saying acout 10 CFR 50.5., okay, acout the interpretation of
- fals;i. cation, I can see how that would be considered 4 falsification. Okay. That is pretty ambiguous. 10 CFR S 50.5 is pretty ambiguous. It really is.
6 Q No. All I am saying is this -- let me make 7 sure I --
8 A Well, if you are saying SEG admitted to it, 9 that is fine. Okay.
10 0 There is one -- there is at least two -- I can 11 think of two reasons why they would do that. They would 12 admit that because they really believe that they were 13 misled by their subordinates to believe that falsification 14 of records really did occur. That is one possibility.
15 Another possibility is -- and this one is 16 pretty far-fetched, and this one is kind of the way I 17 assemble the pieces based on what you have said so far 18 today, and that,is: They knew they weren't really !
19 falsified, but all of this is a conspiracy to ultimately l l
20 get rid of you and Ken Zahrt. And they are willing to l
21 weather the expense of a public notice of violation and a j 22 somewhat tarnished reputation, corporate reputation, in 23 order to get rid of the two of you.
24 A Nc. I dcr't -- I am never saying there has
.!' .. : + : a :Cr.spiracy : sar, : don't think it is a I
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t wa =3n s a c y .
l 2 o Well, all I am saying is X am trying to get to 3 an understanding as to why SEJ --
4 A Ken Zahrt --
5 0 --
management would come --
6 A Well, because Ken --
7 Q -- would come to our office in a'public i
8 enforcement conference and confess that records were 9 falsified. That would only lead me to believe that they ;
10 really believed that. Maybe they were misled.
11 A No. If you read 10 CFR 50.5 to the letter, 12 then, yes. Records were falsified.
I 13 O How so? ;
i 14 A Where is it? I hrve got to find it;.I am i
15 looking for it. (Perusing document.) I can't -- it is in i 16 here somewhere. l i
i 17 0 Well, let me read 50.5 and see if this helps.
18 A Okay. Go ahead.
19 0 50.5 says, "Any licensee and any contractor, 20 subcontractor or any employee of a contractor or 2
21 subcontractor of any licensee who knowingly provides to 22 any licensee services that relate to a licensee's 23 activities may not" --
and I think it is number 2 that 2.;
applies here -- "may not deliberately submit to the NRC a E ._;;e..see or 'icensee's centractor or subcontractor NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202i234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433 1
\
. ........u.-.. . . . . . . . p e t , s. . ..
.-.._......3. . ... ... m ,i m u u
- knows to be incomplete or inaccurate in como respect 1
.a:e _al :: the NRC."
4 Is that what you were looking 'for?
5 A That is what I was looking for. I thought it 6 was in my letter, and it probably is, but I was looking 7 too fast.
8 0 Now, why do you -- why would they admit this 9 violation?
10 A I don't know. I mean, I really don't know, 11 because other than the fact that Ken Zahrt signed the
- 2 surveys and backdated the surveys, backdated his signature
- _
- :n the survey --
~4 O His review signature?
15 A His review signature, okay, which by the way 16 that I hear, you know, 50.5(2) is really, if you read that 17 to the letter, that is what it says. Okay. But it also 18 says something in 50.5 with intent to deceive, doesn't it, 19 somewhere along number 1 or number 3, or somewhere along 20 those lines?
21 There is an intent to deceive. The intent to 22 deceive has to be --
is part of it also. And that is the
- . th:,ng that -- you know, I don't want you to think -- I am
- .; c.: : ::.y_ng to cry wolf here, because it is not. It is
_: .. s - a fact that if SEG came to you guys and admitted --
NEAL R. GROSS COVAT AEPOATERS AND T AANSCAtBERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W
<2C2a 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 okay. Tney naa alreacy naa enougn or e olaen eye trom e
- the whole investigation and the whole nine yards.
They fired :'e." Zahrt . You know, they might as ;
1 1
well have fired me for the offer that they made me. And 4
5 they based a lot of their decision, in my opinion, on the 6 Stiers, Anderson, Malone report, to do nothing more than I
7 save face with Public Service. Public Service brought l
8 these high-dollar people in here, to find out what was ;
I 9 wrong.
10 We had audits. While I was at Fort St. Vrain, l 11 I think we had three audits, one of which was not real 12 good. Okay. Not real bad. Okay. The other two were l I
13 unbelievable. We had things going on every day. I had 14 recommendations in my file for my promotion to supervisor j 15 from J.B. Baird and' Paul Michaud. And J.B. Baird used to 16 spend a lot of time right on my shoulder, watching how I 17 did things, watching how we did things.
18 It just seems awful funny to me -- it really 19 does --
is that --
you know, I don't have an answer to 20 your question as to why they did it. If they did it and 21 they really don't think they are, then they are stupid, 22 you know. Then it is their own fault.
- 3 Personally, I think there is a whole hell of a
- 4 _; sf colitics involved between SEG and PSC.
) ;5 ; Just for the transcript at this point, I want NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE t$ LAND AVENUE. N W 202: 234 4433 A ASMtNGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 to make sure that we identify who J.B. Baird and Paul
- Michaud are.
3 A Tn ,< t.re --
4 0 In fact, I can do that, because I know that 5 J.B. Baird was the NRC resident inspector at Fort St.
6 Vrain. It has been a number of years ago since he was 7 there.
8 A '91 to '93.
9 O All right. And then after he retired from 10 NRC, he was followed by Paul Michaud who was also -- well, 11 he worked out of the Denver NP.C offAce and followed Fort 12 St. Vrain project work for a while before, I think, Bob 13 Evans relieved him, just for the transcript, so we will 14 know who these people are.
15 A Like I say, I really don't have a question. I 16 wish I --
or an answer. I wish I did. You know, I feel 17 how I feel. I may be'the only one out of this whole 18 fiasco that feels the way I feel, but I really -- you-19 know, in my closing kind of is that, you know, I figure 15 20 years, 14 to 15 years in the industry with an unblemished 21 record, with the dedication that I put into this 22 project -- I don't have a degree, but personally I think a 22 shingle is nothing more than a stepping stone.
24 But, you know, I mean, it is just -- we were
!? I +_3 back. We fa:ed ad/ersity every day at that project.
NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEDOATE AS AND TRANSCRIBEAS 1323 ANODE ISLAND AVENUE N W
-202i 234 4433 WASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 234 4433
1 That should have been the -- and it was for a little wn:le -- the best job in the country. I mean, it was a
- r+m;er :oc, the first decommissioning in the U.S., the 4 first commercial decommissioning. I mean, it was 5 prestigious, and I had friends, technicians calling me 6 from all over the country, wanting to know what was going 7 on.
8 You know, Hey, how is this going? You know, 9 and that makes you feel good, you know, as a professional.
10 My professional reputation has been tainted and scarred, 11 and, you know, I really feel that the dedication that I 12 put into that project, you know -- and I was willing to 13 let bygones be bygones, and I was surviving.
14 You know, it put enough strain on my 15 professional career and on my personal life. You know, I 16 will let Ken speak for himself, but I am going to 17 guarantee you one thing: I came about as close to divorce 18 as I ever want to be, based on the situation that was 19 going on out at Fort St. Vrdin, because we and I in my 20 opinion and my-wife's opinion and, you know, anyone that 21 knew us felt that we were being percecuted.
22 And I just -- I mean, something -- it just l 23 really bothered me. And, thank God, nothing happened.
24 Y:u <now, we are a lot better off for it. But I would ,
E - se :: make one more : mhent, because --
NEAL R. GROSS I
COvAT AEPOATERS AND TRANSCAlBERS
! 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W room.u .AS - TO~ Dc m s m ,- u l
1 l
1 Q Bafore you get too far cway from -- J
- A No. I am net. This is going right along. l
. All right. ,
4 A I made a phone call the other day, and I spoke !
5 to an NRC individual the other day, Mr. I I 6 have made -- and these are not accusations; these are 7 direct physical eyewitnesses of individuals, health i
I 8 physics individuals at Fort St. Vrain using narcotics. l 9 I made a couple anonymous phone calls, because 10 I wanted the problem taken care of. I didn't -- wasn't l
11 vindictive. It was I wanted the problem taken care of, so I 1
12 I made them anonymously. I figured if they knew it was me j l
alling, they would say, Oh, he is just pissed off. Okay. )
14 0 You made these anonymously to! '
1 15 A I made one anonymously to I j 16 made several calls to the Public Service hotline, their 17 drug hotline. Nothing has been done. '
18 0 Well, I knew that we had.that allegation 19 received in the office.
i 1
20 A Okay. But --
21 Q I'know that this an officially received 22 allegation in the office and is being processed.
3_
4
. \
_~l i
)
I l
l NEAL R. GROSS COupt AEPORTERS AND TAANSCRIBE AS
'323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W X2.23d4433 W ASHING 10N D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
1 2
g e 4
5 H
6 f
7 p 1
8 e !
i 9
l 1C 1-l 12 -
j 13 I
~
14 15 O Well, since you brought up the subject, we I 1
16 probably ought to get into this a little bit in terms of 17 this allegation --
i 18 A Okay.
19 Q -- since we are going to have to look into it 20 and since you brought it up on your own initiative.
21 A It was the last one I haven't checked off.
22 O Is this something that you had -- that you 23 have noticed recently? Have you been to a party or i 24 something recently where you saw drug use by currently 25 employed Fort St. Vrain workers?
NEAL R. GROSS COUAT mEPORTE AS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W i202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 A Health physics parsonnal?-- - -
)
2 O Yes. i t
A Not re ce n*. i y . I Within the last -- numerous !
4 )
times over the last, oh, year and a half, numerous times. !
5 Plus the fact is that my wife is -- one of her friends is i 6
one of the supervisor's wives out there. And there is 7
cocaine usage, marijuana usage, all the time.
8 . O Is this PSC? SEG? MKF or --
9 A SEG.
10 0 I am sorry?
11 A SEG.
12 O SEG only?
13 A SEG health physics. I mean, those individuals 14 particularly.
You know, prior to that -- I mean, you -
15 know, I am going to be real honest with you. There is 16 part of 10 CFR 26 that I think are garbage. There is also 17 parts that I agree with.
I mean, having been a -- I mean, 18 being very honest, as a supervisor, you know, having been I
19 in the industry for the last, you know, 15 years, you 20 know, if you can look yourself square in the mirror and 21 say, HPs don't do drugs, you are crazy. You are.
22 There is always -- ten years ago or in 1984, 23 when I got out of the industr? -- or when I got into the 24 _ndustry -- : rean, I don't use it. It was always, you .
25 kn:w, too much of consequ'ences, you know, especially when NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCAlBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W i202i 234 4433
- ASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
1
, ; was in tne Navy. You get denukca cnd you gtt Dooted out
- cf the Navy, you know. What good is that going to do you?
- O Is there a drug testing program witn SEC at 4 Fort St. Vrain?
5 A To the best of my knowledge, 10 CFR 26 does 6 not cover decommissioning. It only covers full power i
7 license.
8 0 But notwithstanding that, in your experience, i
9 when you were there, there was not a drug testing program 10 in operation?
11 A Not once the decommissioning started. When I 12 was there with ARC and PSC still had their -- before they 13 got to step down to possession-only license, whatever the i 14 next step up from possession-only is, when thep still had 15 fuel, there was a random policy in place. I mean, it 1
16 seemed like I got selected all the time. Just so happens :
l 17 my birthday always came up. l 1
1 18 Okay. After the decommissioning was i 13 installed -- and, I mean, the NRC had very little l
20 oversight of the decommissioning -- now NRC has more 21 oversight into decommissioning, but 10 CFR 26 didn't cover I l
22 it. So they didn't have to institute any type of drug --
23 it is expensive, you know. I mean, you are talking l l
24 d:1;ars. That is what a lot of this comes down to, 25 Tharles.
NEAL R. GROSS l COURT AEPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENVE. N W 202)234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 0 So you are caying in recent months --
i l A Yes.
3 0 -- there have been parties in the area where 4 SEG people were present, and you were present and 5 observed -- did you observe --
6 A I have been at parties in the past, yes. The 7 most recent ones are testimonials from my wife. I mean, 8 she just -- because these individuals use narcotics and 9 keep narcotics around the house when they have a four- and 10 a five-year-old.
11 Q And she is hearing this from her friend.
12 A Her friend. Well, she sees it, because her 13 friend does it. I mean, she goes over there, and if she 14 pulls it out, my wife leaves. You know, and the l
l 15 discussion starts at home -- not to, you know, screw those ;
16 guys or anything like that, the discussion starts at home 17 because they have two young children like we do, and my 18 wife is appalled at the fact that, you know, her husband 19 will come walking down the stairs in front of the kids, 20 smoking a joint, you know.
21 I shouldn't say that. I mean, I am not being 22 specific. I am being facetious. I mean, they use -- the 23 drugs are there with the availability to the little ones, 2, _5 where the concern comes in, and t. hat is how the l
.5 1'500551cn Starts 00 79.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W 202) 2344433 WASM:NGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 Q All right. So this is comatning enat you nmva not observed firsthand, but you have heard it from your l
- w;fe's friends, or she has heard it from --
4 A No. My wife has observed it and come home and 5 tells me. !
6 0, Okay.
7 A And then prior to that in the past, yes. I 8 have observed it many, many times.
9 Q Oh, you have observed it yourself.
10 A Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Many times, many times.
11 But, I mean, it was to the point where, I am'not in the 12 industry anymore; if you guys want to screw up your lives, 13 then go for it. Bad attitude, yes. But --
you know, but 14 I am not going to stand by and watch it anymore.
15 O Okay.
16 BY MR. ARMENTA:
17 0 And these are current SEG employees?
18 A I believe so. Yes. I know a couple of them 19 are, yes. I would just as soon not n&me names. You know, )
l 20 yes. They are employed by SEG, and it seems like talking 21 rn other people out there is that they have drug tested 22 some individuals, but it is a very select few who they 23 know darn well are clean.
24 I mean, I could almost guarantee you if I had 25 the same staff sitting :n this room that I had when I was NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBEAS IJ23 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202) 2344433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 out there, I could pick who has and who hasn't. And I would be real close; if not 100 percent, probably 90 3 cer:ent, I r.ean, know' .edge or ti.at . .
4 And, again, like I say, I don't agree with a 5 lot of the things 10 CFR 26 says, as long as it doesn't 6 impair your ability to come to work. But, I mean, with 7 the amount that it is being used and being abused at this 8 time, there le absolutely no way -- you know, if you have 9 an everyday coke habit, you know, you can't just go once a 10 day.
11 It does nothing but escalate. It doesn't, you 12 know, decelerate; it accelerates, you know. And that is 13 about the only good thing that I have learned from the 14 drug awareness program. You know, and it is a concern. 1 15 0 Did you ever witness anybody taking drugs 16 during the day at --
17 A No.
1B Q -
work?
19 A If I had ever witnessed anyone, the -- I mean, 20 there was a couple of people, craft workers and stuff like 21 that, that came back to work that were drunk, obviously 22 had gone out and had a liquid lunch. One foreman that 23 they had, you know, he got fired, because they proved that
.4 .e w3s, ycu knew, an alcoholic.
_? Eut - never witnessed anyone. I was suspect a NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202i 234 4433 WASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 234-4433
- oup'e of times, but, I mean, I couldn't prove it.
2 D Did you say that you observed some people?
3 A Not when : was a supervisor. This is after I W
4 was gone from out there, Jonathan. I mean, you are 5 talking, you know, what?
April of last year or March of.
6 last yepr, so you are talking --
7 Q You were released August '94.
8 A No. I was released.from site March 26 of ,
9 1994. That is when I was put on administrative leave with 10 pay, March 26 of 1994, and I resigned August 15 of 1994, 11 is when I resigned.
12 BY MR. CAIN:
13 0 When did you resign?
14 A August 15 or August 16.
15 0 August 15, '94. Okay.
16 Q Right. But throughout that whole time -- I 17 mean, once I was put on administrative leave, I was no 18 longer a supervisor, but throughout that time, I had a lot I
19 of contact with site personnel, and there was a lot of --
20 it was a lot.
21 DY MR. ARMENTA:
22 O So it was during that time that you were in -- l l
23 A From then till now.
24 C -- from March '94 --
25 A Till now. Yes.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT A(POATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202) 234 4433 WASHtNGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
. - . - . . . - - - - - - - - - - - .- j i O To present.
2 A Yes. I would not have tolerated -- I would 1 have left a party if saw something like that, I mean, !
)
4 because that puts me in a bad positio'n. That puts me in a 5 real bad position. I mean, a, quote / unquote, friend and 6 an employee using drugs in front of me; you know, it would 7 put me in a very bad position, so I would leave the party 8 at the time. I have been in that position too many times 9 in the past, and I just leave. It is easier for me to 10 leave.
l 11 You know, other individuals in the past, not 12 at Fort St. Vrain, I have talked to and told them, You do l 1
13 what you want to do, if you want to screw up your life; 14 don't ever let me catch you coming to work stones or don't 1
15 let me catch you doing your work rtoned. I mean, that is ;
l 16 not by the law of 10 CFR 26, but --
1 17 BY MR. CAIN:
18 0 Okay.
19 A That is the way I feel.
20 0 All right. Let me go back to the RWP survey 21 issue.
22 A Sure.
22 O And do like I have been doing all afternoon:
4 .e t me ust summarize my understanding of what you have
_ s s d, a..d terrect me where : am amiss.
NEAL R. GROSS COUA1 REPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202l 234 4433 *ASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 2344433
- ~ .- ... . . . - . - -
- A Okay.
2 O I understand you to say that, yes, there were s me :ccasions where RWP survey sheets were prepared ,
4 sometime after the fact, maybe a day or two, maybe a week, 5 a month.
6 A- Based on the evidence that I saw that Malone 7 showed me, some of them were a couple of months.
8 Q Okay. -
9 A I mean --
10 Q But that when these records were prepared, the 11 information that was in the survey was accurate. There 12 was not any false data put in the survey reports to the 13 best of your knowledge.
14 A correct.
15 0 And in other words, that they were drawing all 16 this information from their own personal notes or from 17 records that were available at other sources at the plant 18 site, such as from the instrumentation --
19 A Really instrumentation, I mean, where they 20 draw it from -- I was just giving you examples of where 21 they may or may not have drawn it from. You know, I mean, 22 it ;ust -- I can't say that, you know, Johnny got it from J. :- here and Ted got it from here.
- . And that supervisory review signature, which 7_ : .: th;s case :s pr: car;y 7.enny Zahrt -- he is the one NEAL R. GROSS CouAT REPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBE AS
'323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202i 234 4433 W ASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 234 4433
4 l 1 reviewing tnase records -- he -- J i
2 A Mike Miles and myself did also.
3 0 Okay. All three of you on occasion would sign 4 as a reviewer for these records and might backdate your 5 date of your signature to coincide with the approximate 6 time of,the survey, but that all in all, what was in the 7 record was accurate, and there wasn't any false 8 information, to your knowledge, in the record, the survey 9 record itself. Is that -- is what I seid correct so far?
10 A It is very correct. If there was a survey 11 documented and there was information put on that survey, 12 it was not false.
13 O And so you never instructed anyone to record 14 any false information --
15 A Okay.
16 0 --
in any kind of survey record, an RWP survey 17 record, a release survey record, or any survey record that i
18 is at issue here, you never requested anyone to record l l
19 information that was false. Is that true?
20 A That is correct. Yes, sir, it is.
21 BY MR. ARMENTA:
22 O I have got a queation, Chip, and let's go back 23 to the beginning of the interview. Okay? You mentioned 24 that you filed a complete of harassment-intimidation with 25 F5: manacement.
l l
I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCAIBEF S 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W e202i 2344433 wASWNGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
2 O Were you on administrative leave when you i f:_ed this ccmplaint ?
4 A Yes, I was.
5 Q Did the -- did any member of the Stiers, 6 Anderson, Malone team preclude or interfere with any of 7 your job-related responsibilities or efforts at that time?
8 A In my opinion, yes, because at that time, I 9 was told by SEG upper management that my job was to 10 provide Stiers. Anderson, Malone the information that --
11 any information that I could. That was my job. Other 12 than that, I went home, and they didn't bother me until 13 they needed me to come talk to those guys. That is 14 strictly opinion, you know,-hus I felt at the time.
15 O All right. You -- on those occasions during 16 the conduct of this interview, you have made implications 17 about Dick Sexton and Dick Parsons.
18 A Ed _"acsons.
19 O Ed Parsons.
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q At the time thac SEG conducted the internal 22 investigation, did you implicate them at that time?
23 A Uh-huh. I did when I talked to Malone also.
24 They asked me, Was Dick Sexton and Ed Parsons aware of
- 5 t..;s ; were they aware cf that.
l Certain items, depending NEAL R. GROSS COUAT ALOORTERS AND TAANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W 202) 2344433 WASHINGDN D C 20005 (202) 234 4433
1 upon the itcm or dapanding upon tha quaction, I kn:w thnt _
2 Dick -- because I dealt directly with Dick, because Ed l 1
Pars;r.s had the personahty of a doorknob ,to talk to. I i
l 4 mean, he is a very difficult individual to talk to. '
5 Ed Parsons is a lot -- or Dick Sexton -- I am i 1
6 sorry - is a lot more personable to talk to, to carry on 7 a conversation with. Dick Sexton was aware of -- and Ed 8 Parsons, they were aware of everything that was going on.
9 Q Did they ever give you any instruction or 10 guidance regarding what you -- what was alleged that you 11 have done?
12 A We are too busy; handle it. I am too busy; 13 fix it.
14 0 Did they specifically instruct you to backdate 15 survey forms?
16 A No. !
17 MR. ARMENTA: I don't have any more questions. l 18 Chuck? -
19 MR. CAIN: Okay. Let me just run through my 20 list here and s'ee if I have covered -- we have covered 21 everything. (Perusing document.)
22 BY MR. CAIN:
23 C Well, back to the RWP survey records --
24 A Uh-huh.
25 0 Why would you backdate those? I mean, was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W
!?02)2344433 WASHINGTON O C 20005 (202) 2344433
l 1 that just -- what would have been the probicm with aimply 2 datir.g those the date that you signed them?
A As far as hindsight right now, probably --
]
4 then, I can't tell you what I was thinking at the time, l
5 but --
brain damage. I don't know. I mean, I know that j 6 sounds silly, but --
you know, not thinking, not thinking !
l 7 properly.
8 You know, trying as best as you can to remedy 9 an obvious problem, you know, the best way that I thought l
10 at that time to remedy it. And obviously, you know, I 11 have learned better since then, but, you know, it is --
12 .again, it is not any point of trying to deceive anybody.
12 Like I said, I could have deceived a lot 14 better. If it was trying to deceive, it would have been 15 done, you know --
16 0 Well, by backdating them, what are you 17 communicating? I mean, what was your intent by doing 18 that? .
19 A If you backdate something like that, that is 20 regenerated or transposed f rom a log book or f rom -
21 sumething like that, that, to me -- and it may be a warped 22 opinion -- says that the survey was done at that time.
23 That is the way I feel about it.
l ;4 I mean, again, the date on the bottom of the .
25 survey as far as a review'is a moot date. It makes you NEAL R. GROSS COURT AEPOATEAS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W i202i 234 4433 WASHINGTON. O C 20005 (202) 2344433
- - --- - -~
l 1
cate it to say that, yes, you did look st it, you know, 2 around this time. You know, and that would be a hit that 3
I am willing to take, but -- and, again, you know, a lot 1
4 of these things, I didn't remember when Stiers, Anderson, 5 Malone were talking to me.
6
, But over the last year and a half and talking 7 to all kinds of people and reading my deposition and 8 reading this and reading Ken Zahrt's deposition and all 9
kinds of other stuff, you know, I mean, all the pieces 10 came together. So --
11 l O How would you describe your relationship with, '
12 first of all, Westin9: iase team people? i 13 A Then? Very good. Very, very good. I mean, a ,
14 good enough rapport with th'e upper Westinghouse 15 management -- I mean, I have Carson Calton's phone number 16 in North Carolina right now, who is the -- you know, was 17 the ex-Westinghouse project director.
1B Westinghouse has sponsored the football team 19 that I coach for five years now or for four years. I 20 mean, little things like that, and as far as a 21 professional relationship, I mean, it was probably --
22 actually I got along better with the Westinghouse people 22 than 1 did with the SEG people. They treated me properly;
'4 they treated me like : was, you know, somebody.
S:w, the SE3 people, your management NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TAANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W 202 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 2344433
1 apparently thought a lot of you. At comm point th2y 2 prometed you. When was this? When were you promoted?
- A September 15 of '92. Well, let me clear one 4 thing up about that. Mr. J.B. Baird, Mr. Paul Michaud, l
5 Ken Zahrt, and Chris Cummins are the ones that thought a :
6 lot of gne to promote me. Okay. And, you know, I proved 7 myself. But recommendations came from J.B. and Paul 8 Michaud. ,
9 0 Is this verbal recommendations or --
l 10 A I would make a note to ask Ken about that, ;
11 because, you know, he had that in his log book, I believe.
I 12 Okay. !
13 0 Who~is Cummins? l l
14 A Chris Cummins, C-U-M-M-I-N-S. l 15 0 Who is he? j 16 A He was the rad waste supervisor. He is the
~
17 rad waste guru on site.
18 Q ,
With SEG?
19 A Yes. Chris is not like Ed Parsons or Dick 20 Sexton. They didn't think that much of me, because it 21 took me 16 months to get paid for it. I was an acting 22 supervisor for 16 months -- I was a supervisor, not 23 acting; I was assigned and put in that position for 15 to 24 _E *,2
. T.cnths, getting paid the same as a senior 25 tecnnician. .
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1 0 Was there anything, thOn, after 1992 that 2 resulted in a deterioration of your rapport with SEG l
3 management, other than the things that we,have talked l
. i 4 about today?
5 A No. Other than the fact that I had a big 6 mouth,'and they didn't like that. If I saw something 7 wrong or I thought something was garbage, I said it was !
. i 8 garbage, you know. !
9 0 You started work with them when originally, l
10 SEG? Back in Oak Ridge, is that where you started with 11 them? -
12 A Yes. I was down in Oak Ridge for about a 13 month and a half, writing procedures.
14 O Is this in '92?
15 A Huh-uh. '90.
16 O 1990. And so you were in Oak Ridge in 1990; 17 joined SEG in Oak Ridge in 1990. !
18 A I didn't actually' j oin them. I'was what they 19 called a -- I was a consultant at the time. We were 20 consultants all the way through site characterization. I 21 didn't become an employee of SEG until October of '93 22 or -- ny, no -- August of '93 -- or August of '92. I am 23 sorry. '92.
l i 24 ; You were in Oak Ridge for a couple of months
- f 1
- ana nen you came out here?
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l 1 A Uh-huh. Bacn harO Gvar QincD. .
2 O You came in here in, what, late 1990 or so?
3 A Late 1990 or early 1991. I think it was the 4 spring of '92 is when I came here.
l 5 0 Okay. Have you ever generated a radiological 6 occurrence report?
7 A Just a few. I have written quite a few of 8 them. There is quite a few as a matter of record out at 9 Fort St. Vrain that have my signature on them, quite a 10 few.
11 O What do you think of the system? Does it ;
12 work?
l 13 A overall in the industry, yes, it works for the L 14 most part. At Fort St. Vrain ideally it should work, but 15 the way that Ed Parsons and Dick Sexton did it ahd 16 administered it, administratively never work. I have 17 never seen an ROR program like they had out at Fort St.
18 Vrain.
19 You know, Ken and myself as supervisors, you 20 know, I would write an ROR on somebody and then we would 21 process it, and we would send it over to Dick Sexton, and 22 then the guy would get, you know, well, don't do that i
23 anymore. And then the guy would get a second one on him.
24 Let's use Danny Hicks for instance, use the
~5 r.c s t prolific ROR recipient cut there while I was there.
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. rcu anow, ena wnat it cla was it -- ano it is not so much e
2 a matter of pride. It is a matter of is it --
It made Ken and I lose a lot of face and a 3ct 4 of respect from the technicians, when Dick Sexton and Ed 5 Parsons both say, you know, to us, you know, You. guys 6 write them; we will do the administrative processing, and 7 we will do the reprimanding and slapping on the wrist or a whatever we are going to do.
9 I mean, I have been in 18 different power 10 plants in the country, and I am telling you what: If 11 Danny Hicks had done -- number one, he would have -- you 12 know, the first ROR that he had written on him, he would 12 have gotten some time off. The second ROR, you are out of 14 here; you are gone; you are fired. No questions asked.
15 Th'e RPM would can him. If he doesn't want to fire -- he 16 can't literally fire him if he works for a different 17 company; he can pull his badge, pull his TLD.
18 You know, and it is ridiculous, the way that 19 they administered it. It stifled Ken and I. It stifled l 20 Mike. Ken and I went round and round and round many 21 times, because he would come back and he would tell me, '
22 you know, what Dick Sexton and/or Ed Parsons would have 23 said about a certain individual that had an ROR written on
- 24 them.
l
_5 Another cne was a guy named Chan. I don't NEAL R. GROSS I
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- rememoer his.last name. I lobbied to got that guy -- I d
- r.e a n , I wanted him fired.
- mean, what he did was blatant l
- d sregard for health physics practices and health physics 4 safety, radiological safety. And, I mean, Ken lobbied for 5 it, and he got a couple days off, and then he got a couple 6 days at, retraining. I don't even think -- as a matter of 7 fact, I don't think he got a couple days off. I think he 8 got sent off to retraining.
9 And, I mean, that was by far the most blatant 10 of al). of them that I wrote, and I just -- I mean, it 11 infuriated me. And then they see this, and of course, the 12 technicians are going to think that the ROR program 1
12 stinks. I don't blame the techs for feeling the way they 14 feel about the ROR program; I don't blame them at all.
1 15 If I was a tech, I would be screaming too. I I 16 was screaming as a supervisor, and it didn't do me any l 17 good. But, see, we lost credibility. Ken and I lost- l i
18 credibility and so did Mike with the ROR program. It is l 19 like, Why write an ROR, you know; nothing is going to 20 happen to it; nothing is going to happen to it.
21 So that just makes a perfectly good tool that 22 the radiation protection industry has. I mean, if it is 22 abused, I disagree with that, but when it is used l .. a .r:perly. it can be a very good -- not only a very good l
l z _ earn:ng tool, but it can also be a very good disciplinary NEAL R. GROSS COUAT AEPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AMODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W 202) 234.4433 WASMiNGTON D C 20005 (202)2344433
1 tool, you know. a 2 There is a reason why we are there, and if you
- 30 ft110w the rules, then get the heck ont of the house. )
4 And upper management, Ed Parsons and Dick Sexton, did not 5 feel that v'r. They felt that it should be, you know -- I 6 don't k'now. They just felt it should be a. lot lighter in 7 the punishment, I guess, is what you want to call it.
8 O Did you interface a lot with Public Service ,
9 Company employees, Ted Borst --
10 A When Ken wasn't there. Certain individuals 11 like the Darrell Blaines and the Steve Shro [ phonetic]
12 and, you know, all those guys that were rad engineer 13 types, yes, I interfaced with them a lot, because they 14 were always over in the building, looking at things, you 15 know, checking things out.
16 You know, I would always go over and see them 17 if I needed a break. I would get out of the building and 18 go over and visit them. But other than that, I really 19 wasn't --
about the only time I would, you know, see Ted 20 Borst is when Ken wasn't there, because then I was acting 21 RPOS, and I would go to all the highfalutin meetings and 22 all that other garbage.
2 :' O And probably also worked with Sam --
l 24 A Chestnut.
l I
2~ ^
Chestnut. Did you have -- what was -- how NEAL R. GROSS COVAT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $
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wou.d you describe your relationship with them? Did you l 2
have good rapport with those people? l
- A I had a very good rapport, and that is what i
4 really shocked me. I mean, I had a very good rapport with
\
5 Mary Fisher and Don Warembourg, and when all this came 6
about, .I mean, that is another kick in the teeth too is, I ,
7 mean, they always -- they would call me, and, you know, we 8
would have a discussion on the phone, and it didn't 9 matter. You know, they would come up at three o' clock in 10 the morning and I would be up on the floor or whatever.
I 11 They would come up, holler down to me. You 12 know, it was a very -- I thought it was a very good, 13 professional, you know, rapport with the licensee. And, 14 you know, I could laugh and joke with them, you know, 15 about certain things, you know, and yet according to Don 16 Neely when he had his last meeting with me, he told me i 17 that Don Warembourg and Mary Fisher told him that I could 18 not be back on site, that I could not return, i i
19 So, I mean, to me, thht tells me that PSC 20 fired me. PSC said, You can't come back. i I mean, my j 2;
rapport with everyone was relatively well. The only l
22 people that really didn't -- unfortunately, the only '
22 people that really didn't like me a lot, you know, was I
_4 pr: acly a percentage cf ac'out 50 percent of the
- ans, because thsy were still PO'd, because I got i NEAL R. GROSS i
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~~-~~"~~ ~-' ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ ~ ' - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
. v.-...- % - w... ....y w w,, u, o
I mecn, the PSC operations staff, all the PSC 1 people, you know, I got along great with them. I dealt 4 with them every day. You know, it is not like I was a 5 strange face. I had been there for three years, 6 Q Okay. You mentioned earlier that you and 7 your lawyer are preparing a response to the notice of a violation, and I am sure then you are aware of what occurs 9 in the notice of violation. It says for the violation, 10 there is four things that you need to report. The first 11 one is 12 A Four?
13 0 Yes. There is four -- if you will look on --
14 do you have the notice of violation? Look at the 15 violation, down here in then paragraph.
16 A Okay.
17 Q See the four items down there at the bottom of 18 the paragraph? Number 1 is the reason for the violation 19 or if contested, the basis for disputing the violation. I 20 presume, based on what we have discussed today, that you 21 intend to dispute the violation.
22 A Yes, sir.
23 O Or have you -- okay. You have made that 24 ccnclus_on.
25 A Uh-huh.
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- O And than the second item ic the corrective i 4
1 2 steps that have been taken and the results achieved.
?
Well, some of'these become overtaken by the fact that you 4 are going to dispute the violation. Likeksay, you l
5 really don't end up having much of a response for 2, 3, 6 and 4, i,f you dispute the violation. !
1 7 But I take it that is going to be the essence 1
8 of your written response to the, notice of violation.
1 9 A Yes. l 1
10 0 Okay. All right. l 11 MR. CAIN: I think I am -- you have answered l
1 12 everything I wanted to know. Jonathan, have you got 13 anything else?
l 14 MR. ARMENTA: No, I don't have --
15 THE WITNESS: I think he needs to go get soine l 16 air.
l 17 MR. CAIN: Is there anything else you want to l 18 say?
l 19 THE WITNESS: No. Other than -- I mean, this l 20 can be on the record or off the record is that I really -- {
21 we talked about it on the record, about the fact that this 22 :s happening now. I don't agree with it, but, you know, I
- 3 dc and am very, very appreciative. .
- 4 This is the first time that I have had a --
- - .a
- :s the best way :: say it? -- captive audience, so to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPOATERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W 202) 2344433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (20a 2344433
1 spark, to lot ma cpaak my mind, you know, without hnving
- papers thrown at me and surveys shoved in my face and questions asked at me you know, 52 times about the same 4 thing.
5 You know, I really do appreciate it personally 6 and pro'fessionally, you know, and I felt comfortable. I 7 got excited a couple of times on, you know, a few things, 8 but not near as bad as I usually do.
9 MR. CAIN: Well, we appreciate your taking the 10 time to talk to us, and we intend to be receptive to what 11 you told us. There is a sense in which we are the 12 messengers here. We will take back this information and 13 ne doubt be reviewing it with our management.
14 THE WITNESS: Feel free -- I mean,.if there is 15 a hole or anything, you know, that they find or you find, 16 you know, feel free to give me a call. Jonathan has my 17 home number and -- well, so do you. But just give me a 18 call, and I will answer it the best that I can, you know, 19 at that time.
20 MR. ARMENTA: Chip, have we -- have you 21 offered this testimony voluntarily?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.
23 MR. ARMENTA: Has Mr. Cain or I, have we
.4 Lremised any rewdrd Or threatened you in any way?
25 THE WITNESS: No.
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1
. . - . - . . . . . . . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - '
1 MM. ARMENTA:
l It is cpproximsto.Ly 4 : 05, and 1
l 2 this will conclude our interview.
l 3 MR. CAIN: Thank you.
4 (Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the interview in the ;
l 5 above-entitled matter was concluded.) '
6
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l 23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBEPS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W
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This in to certify thtt tha cttcched 5 o
croceedings befcre the United States Nuclear Regulatory ,
1 l ?. r. ssicn in the matter of. -
Name of Proceeding: ROLAND SAWYER Docket Number (s) : --
l Place of Proceeding: Thornton, Colorado l l
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original l i
transcript thereof for the file of the United States i
Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
I l
ku kg u Helene Hershey Official Reporter Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W
.202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005 (202) 234 4 433 k
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