ML22230A142
| ML22230A142 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 08/03/1979 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| References | |
| Tran-M790803 | |
| Download: ML22230A142 (66) | |
Text
RETURN TO SECRETARIAT RECORDS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
PUBLIC MEETING BUDGET PRESENTATION Place - Washington, D. C.
Date - Friday, 3 August 1979 Pages 1-64 Telephone :
(202 ) 347 -3700 ACE* FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
Official Reporters 444 North Capitol Street Washington , D.C. 2000 l NATIONWIDE COVERAGE* DAILY
1 DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript o"f a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on
- Friday, 3 August 1979 . in the Cornmissions's offices at 1717 H Street, N. w., Washington, D. C. The.
meeting was open to public attendance and observation. This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes. As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision o~ the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinations or beliefs. No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the
- Commission may authorize.
2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
PUBLIC MEETING 4
BUDGET PRESENTATION 5
6 Room 1130 1717 H Street, N. W.
7 Washington, D. C.
8 Friday, 3 August 1979 9 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 9:40 a.m.
10 BEFORE:
1l *DR.JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 12 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 13 RICHARDT. KENNEDY, Commissioner 14 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner 15 ALSO PRESENT:
16 Me$srs. Barry, Gossick, Fraley, and Bickwit.
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
/
24
,,~e-Federal Reporters, Inc, 25
. I 000 .O I. I 3
.sh CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If we will come to order.
2 The elite central committee of the commission meets 3 this morning.
4 (Laughter.>
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think we more than make up in 6 quality what we may lack in quantity~- maets this morning 7 to continue budg.e~ discussions;
- in particular, discussion .
8 of the proposed budgets for the commission off.ic.es.
9 .First of all, let me see if I can figure out whether 10 .we need, since this is simply taking up in open session Jl a meeting which was*scheduled, which IJd planned to have 12 yesterday,. or even Wednesday, on the formal schedule, I J 3. do not believe that we require a short notice meeting vote.
14 And, in fact, we could not take and would not have to take 15 one until the next commissioner shows up, to be greeted as 16 hw came through the door with an order to vote aye.
J 7. If we we re to go on to a mark-up se ss.ion, which 18 would start a series of closed meetings on the budget, then 19 we would have to vote to close.
20* However, I donJt propose to do that. this morning, 2J for a* variety of reasons. One of them is that we have 22 some commiss-1oners missing. The main one is that I need the 23 weekened to sit down and cross-cut the whole budget before we 24 sit down and come to look at it as a whole.
25 So I donJt see any need to deal with closing the
I 000.01 .2 4
-5h 5e 55 ion. I-' 11 5 imply k.eep that 2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: When will we get to t.he first 3 mark-up?
4 MR. BARRY: It would be .if you-'re not going to do 5 it this afternoon.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Monday morning.
7 MR. BARRY: Monday morning at 9:30.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Now, let-' s see. ,L think we-' re 9 all here Monday morning. Dick and Vic will be in later.
10 Peter is not here this morning, but I talked to him. So I JI told him that these were not final decisions and he-'s willing 12 to give us_ the go ahead and get the commission o.ffice 13 presentations.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Len, .will you be providing 15 anything ~or that Monday meeting?
16 MR. BARRY: Yes. I do have a recap which includes 17 the set-asid.es and the EDO/BRG, all on one page.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let me see what that looks like.
19 MR. BARRY: That-"'s the clos.est we could come to 20 what the total magnitude of the thing is at this time because 21 even though we-'ve had reclamas and so on 22 COMM I SS IO.NER AHEARNE.: Now the current estimate that 23 you've listed.he~e is that as the conference committse?
24 MR. BARRY: No, it is not. This*number. goes way 25 back to what the staff thought.
I 000.01 .3 5
-sh COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is it possible to give us 2 a current estimate, the appropriations commLttee?
3 I realize that you may not be able to do it by 4 office, but you can do it by total.
5 CHAiRMAN HENDRIE: Based on the 363.
6 MR. BARRY: I can give you my best _guess.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: On how that will break out. Break 8 it out .into people and program support. That .is, you know, 9 the nominal office total is $57 million for NRR, whatever it 10 is. You know, you've got to go through there and sort out Jl what the salaries, the benefits, the travel, and so on, 12 the others things in there.
13 MR. BARRY: It-'s meaninglsss to you in terms of a 14 budget review.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: In terms of sort of what program 16 dO we want and what resources do we have to do the program~
17 You decide how many people and what contract support and 18 then you .have to provide the salaries to get to a total dollar 19 figure and so on.
20 MR. BARRY: I do have that done, but I have not made 21 copies* and I have it on another piece of paper for a different*
22 reason. So I-'-11 have to give you that column.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That will be fine.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Givi us that column.
25 MR. BARRY: I co~ld have that for you down here today
1000 .0 I. 4 6 esh for the week end.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Great.*
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Do you have another copy of 4 this?
5 MR. BARRY: Certainly. I might say while we-'re 6 pondering this that the magnitude of the dollar increase 7 between the -'80 baseline, which in total will be $363.3 and 8 the dollar total we see here at the bottom of -'81, which is 9 for $86,752, the arithmetic says it-'s about $123 million.
10 So that-'s about what the magnitude is.
JI Now we can, of course, increase the 1 80 baseline I2 however we come out on the supplemental. That makes that a 13 smaller number, and so on. And in people it-'s going to run
- 14 15 16 well, depending on what you count and what you don*"t count, somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 some odd temps do~n fo about 350
- l7 . So when I put_this column in -'80 that you ask for, 18 you-'11 be able to see it.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The simplest way I can see to get 20 this down into some kind of reasonable shape would be to 21 scratch the requests and go forward with the set-asides.
22 CLaughter.)
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It-'s crude.
24 COMMISSIONER Al-IEARNE: But it-'s the right number.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, for another day. For today,
- I
1000.01.5 7 egsh let us turn resolutely to comrnission o.ffices and see where 2 that gets us. LetJs start out --
3 MR. BARRY: I would suggest the simplest procedure 4 to work from is the letter I sent to you, the memo, with the 5 attachment which synthesized the commission offices. It had 6 an attachment on there, two attachments, on~ on.the offices 7 where there was a request for increased resources made and 8 a second attachment which gi~es you the whole picture in terms 9 of both people and do.llars.
JO Again,. as in the EDO offices, the dol.lar magnitude, Jl in my judgment, presents no problem. ItJs actually a reduction 12 over the J8Q level. We are really paring down program support 13 in the commission staff offices. And the question at hand is 14 really the debate over increasing people.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why is .the program support down 16 that far, as a matter of minor curiosity?
17 MR. BARRY: WeJve seen over the past two years the 18 program support we've had in the budget was not, in fact, 19 needed to that extent.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That primarily looks like 21 SECY and ACRS.
22 MR. BARRY: Yes. Part of it was. SECY, as you recall, 23 had been doing a substantial amount. More and more of it is 24 being done by Mr. Besaw in admin.
25 So that comes down substantially. Those are the two
8 reasons.
2 And we 1 ve pared down everyone.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I see. And the ACRS reduction, 4 one of the main reasons was that a decision not to use 5 contractor grants on the ACRS fellowships.
6 MR. BARRY: At one time when we were planning as to 7 how to finance the fellows, there were several ways that you 8 .could go.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I s.ee. But instead, they-"re 10 being financed out of personnel.
JJ MR. BARRY: Out of ~ersonnel and benefits.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: It.J's not really reduction to
)3 the agency, but it 1 s a shift.
14 MR. BA.RRY: It is not. It 1 s a chage in financial 15 method. At one time we thought that we might issue contracts 16 to universities. And we pay the university *and they would 17 in turn pay the individuals.
18 So you take the program support money instead of 19 personnel money.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don 1 t remember now the details.
21 But for a while there, it didn 1 t look as though the assembled 22 might of_ other f.ederal government was capable of finding a 23 satisfactory method of paying 7 or 8 peop~e.
24 All right, now ---
25 MR. BARRY.: It 1 s a question of people.
I 000 .O I~ 7 9
.sh CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: As to people, I'll make the 2 presentation on behalf of the comissioner's offices and I'm 3 proud to say that we're holding the line.
4 (Laughter.)
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why the rest of you can-'t do. as 6 well, I really don-'t understand. Right?
7 MR. BARRY: Your secretary is also holding the line, 8 so he gets a little bit of favorable publicity.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. Even better than that, he.,s 10 reducing his dollars.
JI COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But he gets 10 percent of the 12 reduction, doesn-'t he?
- 13. (Laughter.)
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Goodthinking. ACRS now I 15 have a paper on that. Ray, do you want to come up and join 16 the party?
17 MR. BA.RRY: As you look at your people, 1 et me add 18 in the ACRS paragraph, and let me make just a couple of 19* comments and let Ray address the issues he sees. The ACRS 20 indicates that they need 42 man-years of effort of their 21 staff' to do their job. And .they, in fact, have 39 fult-time 22 permanents on board now and two temps.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 37.
24 MR. BARRY: I-'m sorry. 37 and 2*temps. In that 25 42 man-years, what they need is they need 14 direct man~years
10 in the engineering and technical people and 28 support.
2 The point is that they indicate that they need it 3 now. This is not the first time that they've come up with 4 this requirement.
5 So what theyJre saying is that they really are 6 living short-handed today. The two temps, of course, are 7 there, and theyJre working. It's just that they're temps 8 and they want permanents. And that problem becomes 9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Are those part of the 146?
10 MR. BARRY: Those are part of the 156.
.I I COMMISSIONEF? AHEARNE: 46
- 12 MR. BARRY: 1-"'m sorry. 46 now, yes. They're 13 included in there.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So if we decided --
15 MR. FRALEY: There's a little confusion. When we 16 submitted this, we have three temporary people in the office.
17 Two of them have been there for three years and those were 18 the two that we were requesting to convert. When Mr.
19 Oonoghu.e came up, he included all three temporaries. That 20 third temporary weJre handling on a year-by-year basis. We 21 did not originally request them, but we would certainly agr.ee 22 that it would be appropriate because we have had that 23 position for several years now. It's just that the encumbent 24 has not been in it for very long.
25 The other two ~ncumbents have- been in place for
I 000 .O I .9 .l I
~sh three years.
2 So we would .like to convert three temporary positions 3 rather than two indicated here. ThatJs consisent with what 4 Donoghue told you.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That would make 43.
6 MR. FRALEY: 43.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: As an office request, it would 8 be plus 6, then, and 43.
9 Now the 3, then
)
10 MR. BARRY: The 3 .is the issue *
.l I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: In the 146.
12 MR. BARRY: IJm sorry. The 3 is in the 146. And 13 here before today*--
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We will deal with those, I think, 15 on an overall basis and we will see what we think e ought 16 to do.
17 IJm going to agree with the direction that you want 18 to take on that. It has come up each year for a number of 19 years. Each year representations are made. Each year they 20 get thrown back out and this probably turns out to be, as 21 everY year does, to have peculiar reasons why it would be 22 convenient not to push too hard this year. But next year, 23 there will be another set of reasons why one shouldn't push 24 too hard.
25 I think we ought to make a drive for it. ThereJs
I 000. 0 I
- I 0 12 esh always the peril that I suppose that we could end up losing 2 the permission to have 146, or whatever, temporaries. I 3 think the agency, in fact, would be crippled.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: I think that"s very slim.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If that happened to us, I guess 6 I would go off to see the oversight chairman and inform him, 7 in my judgment, that the agency was now incapable of carrying 8 out its mission in full degree. And if thatJs okay with 9 everybody, why, I guess we-'11 do what our hosts prescribe us 10 to do as best we can *
.ti Well, now, so we"re really talking, as I was about 12 to go off, weJre really talking about three spaces. That is, 13 the three additional spaces.
14 MR. FRALEY: The three professionals, right?
15 And we -- I think we-"ve used since the budgeting 16 process began, three or four different workload estimates, 17 some of which have been presented to you in the past several 18 days, and each of these turns out to ind.icate that we need 19 about 14 professionals to* support the direct caseload.
20 It ranges from 13.48 up to 14.96, using the labor 21 rates. that existed at the beginning of the year.
22 I think that fails to take into account some of the 23 things that we"ve learned recently. Number one, that probably, 24 the scope of the safety revisw is going to h~ve to be 25 expanded somewhat and considerably more attention is going to
/
l 000 .O I. l I 13 have to be paid to operating experience, and the evaluation 2 of this experience for precursors, and what have you.
3 WeJve requested two of these positions to really 4 evaluate the material that is turned out by the operating 5 reactors.
6 (At 10:00, Commi.ssioner Kennedy enters the room.)
7 MR. FRALEY: WeJre barely able to keep up with that 8 now. There are about 70 reactors on the line, and as I said, 9 the various workload estimates predict that they wi.11 be 10 increasing to varying degrees. But they ~ill be increasing
.11 over the next two years.
12 I think itJs clear that you need some dedicated 13_ manpower to evaluate that kind of information. That;s the 14 stuff that traditionally gets set aside because of the other l5 scheduled activities construction permits, the operating 16 licenses. And there is a tendency to do that even in the-17 committeeJs office.
I 18 I think we will need two people to handle that and 19 make sure that that material is brought to the committee-'s 20 attention in a timely manner, you know, with sp~cific 21 recommendations about its impact.
22 The third position would be to help the committee 23 write things lik*e the safety research report. As you~re 24 aware, the scope and timing of that report -- the scope was 25 e_xpanded considerably this year, both to get it into the
I 000.01
- I 2 14 budgeting process -- we were asked to expedite it, to make 2 it available earlier in the budgeting process-.
3 Congressman UdallJs committee, in their authorization 4 their report on the authorization act, expanded the scope 5 of it to include things like priorities, impact on the 6 regulatory program, and what have you.
7 The LER analysis that the committee is doing was 8 laid on us last year. Recently, we~ve gotten another latter 9 from Congressman Uda.11, which I think you've got copies of, 10 asking that the scope of that report be expanded a little bit *
.I I ~fa thought we we re going to get it out within th,e next month 12 or two, and weJll probably be able to do that, but some 13 additional work wi.l l be required to comply with this request.
14 So I. think that those three people clearly are 15 needed to handle this kind of thing. I think, generally, that 16 the comptroller, if you 1 ll .turn to page 3 of our handout, 17 where weJve mad~ specific manpower estimates, the nomograph 18 that he uses -- do you have a copy of this?
19 Does anybody need it?
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okaye I..
21 MR. FRALEY: Does everybody else_have one? I mean, ct 2Z in each case, when he has taken a look at the workload volume 23 and the labor rates, his numbers have, in fact, come out a 24 little higher than ours *. And I think these labor rates are 25 actually low, based on our recent experience.
I
1000.02.1 15
.sh Now last year we were told by the commission, and 2 I think rightfully so, that we ought to try to get more 3 manpower out of the fellows. And if youJll turn to page 4, 4 youJll see that we have about 14.5, or 14.6, man-years 5 assigned.to the fellows, which I think is really unrealistic.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Actua.lly, how many fellows 7 are there?
8 MR. FRALEY: We have JO aboard now. One more coming
,,, II II 9 aboard.
( ( 10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Located where?
l{*C MR. FRALEY: I .think all but one are located here 12 in Washington.
13- Number one, because of some of the restrictions, 14 you know, on recruiting and assignment of these people after 15 a yearJs very active recruit~ng, we've been able to come up 16 with .JI, not 14. I think we agreed last year that you canJt 17 count them one for one, and I think thatJs quite clear. They 18 need a lot of technical supervision, a lot of guidance, a 19 lot of orientation.
20 We are going to try to get some support from them 21 in th~ assessment of operating experience. But I think itJs 22 clear that in that area you do need an experienced engineer.
23 I think people like Michelson and Epler from Oak Ridge, and 24 what have you, can really look at operating experience and 25 recognize precursors have to have experience. You canJt do
!800.02.2 16
-Jsh that with a new engineer, perhaps not even a nuclear engineer.
2 And in addition, in 1981, the .I I fellows that we have aboard 3 this year will be terminating their two-year assignments.
4 So we'll be bringing aboard a new batch. There will be gaps, 5 et cetera.
6 Sb I think, in fact, thereJs no way weJre going to 7 get 14.5 man-yearsJ worth out of the fellows.
8 If youJll look at the other level 2 effort, it 9 indicates 1.91 man-years are needed. We havenJt requested 10 anybody there. WeJve suggested weJll try to get this out of JI tightening our belt.
12 IJm not quite sure how we're going to do that, but 13 we*'.11 try.
14 I would 1 ike to note that the ACRS staff has not 15 had any permanent positions authorized since 1976. Generally, 16 each year, we come up for one or two people and weJve been 17 told, well, tighten your belt a little bit.
18 And I think this would be the fifth year in a row, 19 I think, we have taken all of the fat out of the staff, if 20 there was much. I donJt really_think that there was much.
21 But w~ have reassigned some people to provide closely coupled 22 support to the caseload.
23 And if the workload comes down as predicted, IJm not 24 quite sure how we 1 re going to come up with. this 1.91 man-years.
25 I guess IJm really hoping that it doesnJt quite come through
I 000. 02. 3 17
~sh the pipeline, as everybody says it's goin~ to, because I 2 think we would be hard pressed to provide quality support for 3 the committe~, particularly in the area of evaluatin~ operating 4 exPerience.
5 In fact, some ~onsideration might be necessary to 6 limit the activities of the committee or to delay some of 7 their reports because !_think we would be really hard pressed.
8 I think the ACRS staff at the present time is workinJ a 9 respectable amount of overtime --- varies from 5 to 10 percent, 10 from clerical and secretarial add up to engineer, and I JI think that that is respectable as an average number.
12 (At 10:05 a.m. Commissioner Gilinsky enters the room) 13 - COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: How much administrative 14 support, Ray, do you get out of the rest of the NRC, which is 15 another way of asking if that were all to be eliminated, how 16 much would it hurt?
17 MR. FRALEY: This is one of the skeletons that keeps 18 coming out of the closet, that we have 20 or 21 people involved 19 in professional support. And I. think that that may have 20 weighed heavily in the comptroller 1 s recommendation.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No, that 1 s a different problem.
22 My question is: If you were to get no support from anywhere 23 else in the NRC, what would be the impact?
24 MR. FRALEY: I think that that would be several 25 man-years. We try to get some support from press when we can.
18 We try to get some support in reproducing documents when we 2 can.
3 But when a committee is here and meeting, you 4 can't send stuff out to Bethesda. Right now we use, you know, 5 the travel unit out there to get their tickets to the degree, 6 again, to the degree that we-'re able. But we have to 7 process.all the travel claims and compensation claims, and 8 what have you.
9 So it-'s certainly several man-years-' support that 10 We get from around other commission offices.
JI COMMISSIONER AHEARNE; What-'s the total number of 12 panel members that you have?
13* MR. FRALEY: Committee members? Right.now we have 14 15 and they work about half time.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: If one of the results of many 16 of the reviews were to be that you are a completely 17 . independent organization, would you be crippled?
18 MR. FRALEY: I don-'t think it would triple the budget 19 because the committee members are putting .in about as much 20 time as they can.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It would be the administrators 22 that you-'d have to replace.
23 MR. FRALEY: The staff would triple. That-'s about 24 half, I would think, of the total.
'25 But, again, if I may-~ this professional support,
IJ00.02.5* IY e1sh weJre frequently compared here to the support overhead in 2 a normal line NRC office. And I think that's an inappropriate 3 comparison.
4 This professional support does include, as they 5 say, some very closely coupled support of the professional 6 engineers on the staff. We have engineering aides and what 7 have you, in that group.
8 You know, in addition, they do all the travel, all 9 Of the document.control, all of the personnel activities, 10 all of the compensation, all of the claims, and everything JI that are associated, not with 14 professionals, but 12 actually, with 150 professionals. They support the fellows.
13 You know, we didnJt get any administrative support 14 to support the fellows when they were assigned.
15 They support the committee members. They support 16 the rest of the staff, and they support a hundred consultants.
17 Now the members put in about half time. To be sure 18 the consultants, that represents several man-years.
- But there 19 is a continuing overhead having a panel that large aboard.
20 And I think the fact that the members and 21 consultants are spread out thro~ghout the United States puts 22 an added burden on it.
23 I th ink th is support is very similar to the kind of 24 support that your personal staffs provide th~ comm*issioners 25 and the secretariat. And I think that you can realize how that
1000.02.6 20 would be complicated if the commissioners were located 2 throughout the country but your staff was here in Washington.
3 There's a lot of travel involved. If everything you 4 wanted to come to a meeting 5 (Laughter.)
6 MR. FRALEY: For example, we process between 15, ODO 7 and 20,0DO incoming documents a year. They come in in 15 8 copies, each of these documents, because we have part-time 9 people. We have to look at them for conflict of interest.
10 We canJt send them to anybody who has a conflict of interest *
.I 1 In addition, no committee member can afford the 12 time, effort, or space to r~ceive all of these documents.
13 So we have to make a very select distribution, depending on 14 their working assignments, their interests, and_their 15 availability.
16 Again, depending on how urgent the document is, we 17 have several mailing addresses for each member. We have to 18 package them and some of them go to their routine address, 19 some of them go to their urgent address, and what have you.
20 These are, you know, some of the things that happen 21 having people spread out through all the country. You don-'t 22 just walk around. the hall and drop off five copies.
23 COM'NiISSIONER AHEARNE: Ray, let me get back to this 24 question.
25 What I.think 1~m ,_ surprised at is there doesnJt seem
1000.02.7 21
~sh to be any, and maybe it~s a premature judgment or maybe I 2 haven't thought it through and reached a conclusion, but this 3 looks to me to be exactly the same kind of a budget request 4 I would have requested had there not been any Three Mile 5 Island.
6 It doesn 1 t seem to me that you 1 ve re-evaluated the 7 role of the ACRS and here are the changes that you think are 8 going to have to be made to the role it plays.
9 MR. FRALEY: Well, I think it 1 s clear that the scope 10 of the licensing review is going to be expanded, and I think JI it's clear that operating experience is going to have to 12 be evaluated.
- 13. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Did the committee addre.ss 14 that question at all?
15 MR. FRALEY: We 1 re having a meeting next week to 16 discuss underlying causes contributing to the Three Mile 17 Island accident to.think about whether the committee's role 18 should be amended in any significant way, as well as on the 19 other recommendations that the committee would care to make.
20 So I think, except to recognize that there are 21 areas*that need increased attention 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: The committee itself, then, 23 never sat down for a couple of days and thought through what 24 way might it significantly change its role, ~harter, function.
25 MR. FRALEY: That 1 s going to start Wednesday,
I 000.02.8 22 esh hopefully.
2 COMMISSIONER GI LINSKY: May I interject a more 3 detailed question?
4 What was your role in evaluating this lessons learned 5 rePort? Did that run by you before it came out in final 6 form, or are you going to review it now?
7 MR. FRALEY: The com~ittee has had several meetings 8 with Roger Mattson-"s group on lessons learned. The committee 9 was turning out its report at the same time it was meeting 10 With the staff, the bulletins, and orders group and_the
.I I lessons learned group
- 12 And, in fact, we do plan to discuss at the next
- 13. meeting the latest edition of the lessons learned report.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: The formal report.
15 MR. FRALEY-: Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Will you send us something 17 on that?
18 MR. FRALEY: WeJre thinking about interim report 19 no. 4, yes.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What about the report from 21 the office of inspection and enforcement that we heard about 22 yesterday?
23 MR. FRALEY: We got copies of that yesterday, I. think.
24 COMM ISSI 01\JER GI LINSKY: Can we expec-t the views of 25 the committee?
I 000.02.9 23
~sh MR. FRALEY: I think if you would like them, 2 certainly they will do their best to provide them. 1 1 11 pass 3 that on.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I guess I, myself, am much 5 more interested in their views on lessons learned because 6 it addresses ---
7 MR. FRALEYJ Well, it~s clear that we 1 re bearing 8 down now on some reactors that are waiting for their 9 operating licenses to be issues. And, in fact, at the JO August and September meeting, we will have to consider the II first reactors in this series, and I think that then we will 12 really have to bite the bullet.
- 13. CO MMI.SSI ONER Al-IE ARNE: Sine e we are in the budget, 14 though, if I could get back to this point. You said that the 15 ACRS is going to be meeting next week. And one of the 16 issues that they will be looking at is to whether any major 17 changes should be.made.
18 So they have any kind of a date at which they 19 might be forwarding that if they were to forward it to us?
20 MR. FRALEY: No, we do not have a specific date. I 21 think*we~ve talked 8bout this.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: When is our date for sending 23 to OMS?
24 MR. BARRY: The first of September.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: The first of September. Changes
1000.02.10 24
-sh can always be put in afterwards.
2 MR. FRALEY: Well --
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So if they were to be reaching 4 any significant conclusions 5 MR. Fl-1ALEY: Well, I think, in fact, the committee 6 members themselves are probably putting in as much time as 7 they can devote. There may be some major changes in the 8 staff or the use of consultants.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Or the size. For exumple, 10 itJs entirely feasible, they may conclude that 15 is just J1 too small, that they should expand to 45 and separate into 12 more subcommittBes.
- 13. It could be possible they .could conclude.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 45 what?
15 COM.MISS I ONER AHEA!~NE: AC HS members
- 16 COMMISSIONER GILINS:<Y: You"re talking about a change 17 in the law, aren'~ you?
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. What I*'m saying is that 19 I would expect a fundamental re-examination by them.
20 MR. FRALEY: Let me say that Congressman Hollingsworth 21 one time suggested that we might need an east coast and a 22 west coast ACRS. And I. think that the committee was not t.oo
-- 23 24 25 enthusiastic abdut its expanding.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: I"m not say.ing that it would be g_ood or' bad.
1000.02.11 25 esh MR. FRALEY: Well, these are things that will have 2 to be addressed and as soon as they come down with some 3 recommendations, IJm sure that we'll pass them on.
4 CHAif?MAN HENDRIE: Others.
5 COMMISSIONEF~ GILINSKY: If it hasnJt been mentioned, 6 let me say for myself that the committeeJs comments on the 7 research budget were very, very helpful.
8 MR. Fl~ALEY: I think that the committee worl<ed very 9 hard and I hope they were more pointed.
JO COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It was very useful. It was Jl also -- particularly, it.was very timely. It arrived in time, 12 at least for me to have gone through them. And EDO was able 13 to provide something in that regard.
14 It was very useful.
15 MR. FRALEY: Maybe I could just spend a couple of 16 minutes on that.
17 This is another area where I know p~ople keep 18 wondering why we keep asking for more staff. But two years 19 ago when we we re fj rst assigned the RSR report, we we re also 20 given the fellows to sort of help the committee. Unfortunately, 21 the f~llowship program wasn't operative when we had to turn 22 out the fir~t report.
23 So we took that out of the existing staff. Last 24 year, we did have a senior fellow, John Austin, who was very 25 helpful in putting that report together and really helped a lot
I 000. 02. 12 26 ersh Only this year he-J's gone. He now works for Senator Hart.
2 And so, this year, despite the fact that the report 3 was moved up and_it was expanded, we really didn 1 t have any 4 fellow to help and it had to be dumped back on the regular 5 staff and it did create considerable strain and pain.
6 We have now assigned another fellow who does not 7 have the experience that John did. And I don 1 t think, you '
8 know, we can expect quite th~ assistance. But itJs that kind 9 of thing that keeps plaguing us.
10 I mean, these things that are original work, that
.JI require more staff support than the sort of routine review 12 of a more or less standard water reactor, for example.
- 13. Now I know that Three Mi 1 e Isl and has changes things 14 a little bit, but thatJs generally true.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. FRALEYJ Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: As we progress down the list, 18 the licensing board panel, let 1 s see, the panel proposes to 19 keep the same standing level to use 20 percent less program 20 support and travel a smidge more.
21 COMi'v\ ISSI ONER AHEARNE: I th ink what the licensing 22 board would like to do 23 CHAIRM'AN HENDRIE: I think if we could, - in fact, 24 get them up to the 37 -- any comments or discussion on the 25 panel?
- 1000.02.13 27
~sh COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think we have to keep in 2 mind that the function of the panel, the function of the field 3 panel is a subject that we have OGC work coming in on.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. And I 1 ve urged that the level 5 of action on that move along. I don 1 t want to push it tno 6 hard because that will only lead more directly into Len 1 s 7 hands when he comes up in a minute to ask for new staff in 8 the counsel 1 s office, you s_ee.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: ii/hat I was thinking about 10 was that last year, as I recall, 0MB struck members out of
.11 these panels on the grounds that Victor had proposed 12 consolidation.
13 My response was that we weren 1 t ready yet to address 14 that, while we are now coming one year later.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It continues to be true. WeJre 16 nothing, if not consistent.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Anyway, we.1re coming one year 18 later and we do not have the studies. And so we are going 19 back in for the same structure.
20 This weakens our argument a little bit.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I don 1 t think it weakens the 22 argument at all. How does it weaken the argument?
23 CHAI J:1M°AN HENDRIE: It brings us 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: After one* year. The strength I
25 of the argument would be that if we have received the study,
I 000. 02. 1 4 28
-;sh .1 re-examined the conclusions and made a decision, and 2 therefore 3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY~ That wou_ld be a different 4 argument.
5 C0U\HSSI0NER AHEARNE: 0MB, I think, is familiar 6 with the continuing study of the budget.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The study of the bud;iet is 8 the study of the organization. They 1 re also familiar with 9 that. We deal with the Defense Department every year 10 regularly, and if thereJs one thing they 1 re constantly
.11 reviewing, it 1 s new organizations in the Defense Department.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why don't we ask the general 13 counsel and his people to come forward and we'll talk about 14 this and th~n abou£ the counsel's office, which is next on 15 the list after the panel, anyway.
Jl 16 17 MR. BARRY: The difficulty we had with 0MB last year, while we were in the holding position waiting for a i 18 study, instead of holding at 15, they held us first at zero 19 and finally compromised and held us at 8.
20 You know, that's the thing -- we don't want to go 21 through that again. this year and hoid us again at zero or 8.
22 We lost 7 spaces last year as a result of that.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I/here's the status?
24 MR. BICKWIT: I 1 m afraid I'm not at all clear which 25 study you're talking about. It. could be any of a number.
- I
I 000 03 01 29 mgc COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Consolidation or not of the 2 licensing board?
3 MR. BICKWIT: That is a study which we expect to 4 be completed in October *.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Beginning or end?
6 CHAIRMAN*HENDRIE: End.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How about the middle?
8 MR. BICKWIT: We haven't been able to zero in on 9 it.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let's see. Is there a II draft available?
12 MR. BICKWIT: No, there is not.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: In October, we'll get a 14 - draft?
15 MR. FITZGERALD: I think my impression is that 16 Steve Ostrach is about two weeks away from a draft, but 17 that's been pushed back.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Since he works on TMI One 19 orders at the moment, he's probably not making much progress 20 on that, on the Board study.
21 Well, it seems to me that even if we had that 22 study*in hand at the moment, this budget will have to go 23 forward before we have time to discuss it and hack it out 24 and so forth. So for better or worse, we will not have that 25 study until later. However, we may have it just in time to
I 000 03 02 30 mm.
mgc come to final grips with My impression is that they 2 found whacking the Appeals Board out of the list last 3 year - they found that sort of a convenient way of having a 4 set aside on their side. I think they knew damn well we 5 were going to make the 15 positions up elsewhere and just 6 looked at the list and said, let's take 15 out, and isn't 7 this convenient; we'll ax these guys and then let them 8 rearrange things to suit them. I wouldn't be surprised if 9 they do it again this year on the same basis, since no 10 changes in staffing level and really no substantive changes 11 in the program support levels are requested from either the 12 Licensing Goard panel or the Appeals panel.
13 I must say I don't see a great deal to argue 14
- with. I assume when they estimate a little higher level for 15 travel, they know what they're talking about.
16 MR. BARRY: That's essentially because your 17 hearing is now out rather than in. We've experienced that 18 .this year, and we~ve had to reprogram.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Individual travel costs are 20 increasing.
21 MR. BARRY: But it~s primarily because we have 22 recognized they now have a hearing convocation early in the 23 hearing. We have to increase the budget.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Actually the travel money is 25 the least cost of that operation. The addition of staff
I 000 03 03 31 mgc time that you're putting in for the support of the hearings is really expensive, and having them out of town.
- 2 3 COMM! SS !ONER KENNEDY: That isn't travel costs.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Nov it doesn't appear.
5 MR. BARRY: That doesn't appear in here.
6 COMMI SS !ONER KENNEDY: Where is this? Under 7 "Program Support-"?
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That just reflects in the 9 manpower requests you get, and subsequently it doesn" t 10 appear here at all. What I'm getting on to saying is that I
.I I don" t see a great deal that-" s exceptionable in either of 12 these line items. And I recommend we get on to the 13 Counsel's Office, if that's all right with everybody.
14 - Taking silence as agreement or at least.no 15 objection, Len?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Just one question. Do you 17 expect that it will stabilize in the out years?
18 MR. BARRY: The travel?
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes.
20 MR. BARRY: Yes. Stabilize in accordance with the 21 number of hearings we have. It should parallel the 22 hearings. If the hearings go up, it" 11 go up. If the 23 hearings go down, it".11 go down.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Len, why don't you explain to 25 us this proposition for five and five?
000 03 04 32 mgc MR. BICKWIT: We submitted a memo --
- 2 3
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
with this July 31 --
You do, indeed, have a memo
- 4 5
6 comments.
MR. BICKWIT: I'll just make a few supplementary First of all, there does seem to be a greater spirit of adventurism on the Commission and a desire to
,7 involve itself more directly.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That doesn,t sound like a 9 good word, but maybe --
- 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It eliminates 11 turning 1I point **11 12 MR. BICKWIT: What it is meant to tonnote is a 13 spirit of direct involvement in proceedings, whereas in the 14 past, that involvement had not been present, and that 15 invariably means considerable involvement by our office. In 16 addition, we find ourselves at this point in a somewhat 17 reactive posture, which is perhaps .the posture the 18 Commission would want us in. But personally, I,d like to 19 s.ee us in a more creative role. That becomes di.fficult . '
20 without increased resources.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Creative in what sense?
22 MR. BICKWIT: In the sense of taking a thorough 23 look at things like the statute and the regulations and 24 coming to you with suggestions for revamping these, even 25 when y~u haven't come to us with those suggestions. Those
/
l 000 03 05 33 mgc are just the. supplementary statements I'd want. to make.
- 2 3
The memo basically deals ~ith the TMI increased workload stemming from TMI. I think it's rather apparent
- 4 5
6 that this takes its toll .in increased litigation and increased legislation and increased activity of our office associated with investigations, activities on the 7 President's Commission, that kind of thing.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And you see that is more 9 than a one year interim.
10 MR. BICKWIT: I do, but I want to specify that our l l recommendations for FY 1 81 are extremely soft. It is very 12 difficult for us to bid that far.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What was puzzling me was
- 14.
- that the strength of your rec;mmendation really seems to be
- 15 16 I7 geared to the five that you~re asking for in the supplemental. You're really saying, at least as I read it, that you foresee that already there has been a substantial 18 increase in demand, and so therefore, as soon as possible, 19 you need that step up. By having gone to that step up, 20 which is a 20 percent increase or so, at that stage you then 21 fsel in another year you would need a simil~r increase.
22 MR. BICKWIT: That's true, and as I said, I feel 23 much less assur~nce about that second step. The reason for
-24 it is that I do perceive the TMI aftermath extending beyond
- 25 the next fiscal year.
j .
I 000 03 06 34 mgc COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, but the .five that
- 2 3
you're asking for in the supplemental, I would think would be related to that TMI aftermath.
- 4 5
6 MR. BICKWIT: That's right. And I'm saying that you're probably going to have to use those people on TMI related matters in FY '81 as well as FY ~ao.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But then --
8 MR. BICKWIT: And then on top of those five, 9 that's right.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It's that second five that J1 I find 12 MR. BICKWIT: There, what we~re talking about is 13 the kind of creative activity that I mentioned, which are
- 14. things like projects to take a good hard look at how the
- 15 16 17 A.tomi c Energy Act, the procedural legal aspects of tr~e Atomic Energy Act fit together, how the regulations fit together, whether a rewrite of either is appr.opriate. I 18 would say that my _tentative position is that extensive 19 rewriting is needed in both efforts.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But it may be done for you.
21 MR *. BICKWIT: That's true.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Even if it's done for us, it 23 creates a substantial workload impact.
24 MR. BICKWIT: I think invariably it will.
- 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE& I presume the agency will be
I 000 03 07 35 mgc asked for its views or be compelled to submit them, even if 2 not asked.
3 Not a very related question to the budget, but 4 since it came to mind yesterday, whatever became of that 5 stab we were going to take at acceptable risk language?
6 MR. BICKWITi It's about ready to come up as a 7 paper.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: You were talking the other day 9 about this acceptable risk study and whether it was 10 worthwhile. I guess it was Saul on the risk assessment, I 11 think it was, having, you know, sending profe...ssors to go and 12 lecture at each other in seminars on what bases for 13 acceptable risk were. And after that discussion, it 14 o£curred to me that Len and I had talked about whether we 15 could develop a proposition worth discussing to propose to 16 the Congress, namely to put some language in the Atomic 17 Energy Act that says, here in a general way is what 18 acceptable risk means with regard to nuclear power.
19 So it didn't occur to me when we were having* the 20 budget discussion, and afterwards I realized that I had 21 underway with Len the beginnings of* the project, which were 22 along* the lines which you were suggesting_-- namely, why 23 support all these professors' talking to each other? Why --
24 don't we sit down and do it?
25 MR. BICKWITz That is precisely the kind of thing.
/
1000 03 08 36 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It clearly is on the back 2 burner compared to more urgent matters - litigation and 3 pressing adjudicatory matters.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: The pa st year al so saw, in my 5 view, a great increase in the Commission turning to OGC to 6 conduct the Appeals Board study that you just mentioned to 7 serve on this task force or._ this task group. Serving on 8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Who used to do that kind of 9 thing?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know whether you were 11 turning 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa It didn't used to happen.
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Unleashing so many, I don't know 14 whether you'll continue to in the future to turn 15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It said "spirit of I6 ad ve n tu r i sm *-11 17 MR. FITZGERALDa But these things can be great 18 time things, if there is any time. We've got one that is 19 plodding along now that we're investing an awful lot of time 20 on. It's that delegations - long promised delegation 21 study.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I'm glad you used that_
23 descriptive gerund.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: "Plodding along 11 ? But these 25 things do take an awful lot of time, and when we are doing j
1 000 03 09 37 mgc 'the normal day to day stuff, perhaps they do get shoved
- 2 3
4 back. But I would predict that if you continued to do that in the future, we'd have to consider that.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And in the past, we've 5 tended to look to ELD on a lot of questions having to do 6 with the Atomic Energy Act legislation. That~s an area that 7 properly belongs with OGC. In order to move there, I think 8 they need more people.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: -I have one major difficulty 10 with any increase in OGC staffing.
JI MR. BICKWIT: I can tell what it is. I have it, 12 too.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So far I've heen unable to 14, solve your present space problem, and I assume that with any 15 increase in the office, it becomes intolerable. And I don 1 t 16 know what to do about it.
17 MR. BICKWIT: That has been solved.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It has?
19 MR. BICKWIT: Yes.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: How?
21 (Laughter.)
22 MR. FilZGERALD: The ACRS is moving to Bethesda.
23 MR. BICKWIT: The OP has been very helpful. He's 24 agreed to house his staff, and we~re going to move into the 25 historian's office.
I 000 03 10 38 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Good work, Al, you've done it
- 2 3
again.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Perhaps the other Len could
- 4 5
6 comment on th.e problem that we had with the OGC.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
dim view of this.
Yes. Comptroller, you take a 7 MR *. BARRY: I, myself, have had to play the 8 devil's advocate more than once. I'll start by just simply 9 saying that in the inp.Jt we received from Len's office --
10 some of the things he said, you couldn't read in there. It
.11 just wasn't there. It was non-existent, so we only had to 12 judge on what we read. If you look at your piece of paper 13 here under OGC, you see that one position per increased 14
- litigation stemming from TMI, which is one of the three we I5 said looked good, one position to deal with Congressional 16 testimony, preparation and review analysis stemming from*
17 TM! -- again, it's a TM! requirement -- y6u wonder how long 18 that'll last. It'll probably last this year, ~so. But how 19 much longer will that last into '81 for the Congressional 20 part of it? In other words, to deal with the. answers?
21 And then, the one pos~tion -- drafting and 22 revie~ing proposed nuclear related legislation --
23 COMM I SS !ONER GI LINSKY: You' re talking about ooc*?
24 MR. BARRY: Yes. These are the individual things 25 on your paper there that we had to deal with - one position
/
1000 03 11 39 mgc for drafting and proposing proposed nuclear related 2 legislation in view of Appeal Board decisions. We came up 3 with the same question the Chairman had. You know, who's 4 been doing i t now? And for supplemental, we couldn't agree 5 that that was a TMI related action. So that one, our answer*
6 on that was we couldn't see any justification .on the two 7 positions for clerical support. As we indicate, Len is 8 blessed with having a pretty high ratio of clerks to 9 lawyers.
10 We noted that his overtime rate last year for a 11 year for the clerical support was 30 minutes a week, 39 12 minutes overtime.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How does that contrast with 14* the overall average for the agency?
15 MR. BARRY: In a.11 honesty, the overall paid 16 overtime for the agency, with the exception of your offices, 17 Sam Chilk's office, and my office is not very high.
18 Frankly 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Comparable to this? .
20 MR. BARRY: Comparable to that.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I'm not sure whether that 22 demonstrates better management of the resources in the 23 offices than in *ours, or what. or maybe simply a p~nchant 24 on our part for long hours.
25 MR. BARRY: That may be. And in all cases, you
I 000 03 12 40 mgc can't relate paid overtime to total overtime, particularly
- 2 3
4 the closer you get to the technical engineers who do a lot of deliberation and a. lot of computer work and finally it's reduded to writing.
5 But in many offices you can't --
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:. How does this compare to 7 ELD?
8 MR. BARRY: ELD has run about the same. I'll give 9 you a little update, because the last six months of '79 is a 10 little heavier than '78, and ELD is running .44, in other 11 words a little less than half.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What's the clerical to 13 professional ratio?
14, MR. BARRY: It's a little heavier. Al,*how does 15 the clerical ratio in OGC compare to ELD?
16 MR. FITZGERALD:
- By division, in the Hearing 17 Division, the clerical to professional is the highest. It*'s 18 approximately one to three. It-'s comparable to OGC.
19 MR. BARRY: In the Hearing Division?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: That's the only place. Every 21 other place in ELD is considerably less.
22 MR. BARRY: My point is not that the ratio in OGC 23 is wrong. I'm only* saying that i t-'s pretty high, and the overtime rate indicates that there's not a critical problem 24 25 in terms of needing more clerical and so on. That's the
I 000 03 13 41 mgc conclusion.
- 2*
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 I.I 12 13 14
- 15
. 16 17 18 19
,CZ.., 20 *
(V 21 22
~~-~
23 *"---.
24
.e 25 I
- * + * ----~-v* ___.~.. . . . --**~ "
l 000 04 01
- 42 mgc COMMISSIONER GI LINSKY: How does it com pare to 2 lawyers' firms?
3 MR. BARRY: I really can't tell.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: In comparison to the*
5 General Counsel.
6 MR. BICKWIT: What are we being asked?
7 COMMISSIONER GI LINSKY: There seems to be some 8 question about the ratio of secretaries, non-lawyers, to the 9 total number of staff.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What is the cut in OGC?
l1 MR. BICKWIT: It's 15 attorneys and 6 clerical.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I was asking what would it 13 be in a legal firm?
14 MR. BICKWIT: That looks - I think you would be a 15 little higher as far as clerical.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: In a legal firm.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 15 and 6 is 21, and we've got 18 23 listed for '80.
19 MR. BICKWIT: That leaves one paralegal out of the 20 equation.
- 21. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That would be 22 for '79.
22 MR. BICKWIT: Right. 23 --
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The 23 in '80, in fact, is not 24 reflected in the Conference Report, right?
25 MR. BARRY: That's correct.
/
'I 000 04 02 43 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So the '80 number is not 23, 2 it's 22. Where else in this list are there differences of 3 that kind? That may be the only case.
4 MR. BARRY: That's the only one I can think of at 5 the moment.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Now, what about the OJA?
7 MR. BARRY: In OJA, in the '80 budget when we went 8 to 0MB, we asked for an increase of two.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: From 26 to 28, or 28 to 30?
10 MR. BARRY: 28 to 30, and 0MB cut it out.
J1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Oh, it didn't go forward to the 12 Congress.
13 MR. BARRY: It did not go forward to the Congress.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The only one that went forward
- 15 16 17 to the Congress was the OGC?
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
One.
At any rate, the numbers that 18 you show on this sheet as a Fiscal Year so, 22, because 19 iU's not in the Conference Report. Okay. So that s 21 and 20 your paralegal that does it. So that's 15 professional, 6 21 clerical, 1 para. Any further?
22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: With the _FY '80 supplement 23 plus 5, and the ~81 plus 5, we're talking about 10 more. ,
24 What's the distribution of those as to clerical and 25 professional?
I
l 000 04 03 44 mgc MR. BARRY: I should say in the suppl em en ta 1, 2 there are two positions for clerical, and in '81, an
. additional clerical.
3 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: ThatJs seven professionals, 5 three clericals.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY& That, in fact, is going to 7 make the clerical situation_worse than it is. now.
8 MR. BARRY: It would actually improve it or 9 degrade it, depending on which way you look at it, but in 10 terms of ratio of clerks to lawyers, there would be a higher l I ratio.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: ItJs -going _to be lower on 13 the basis of this request.
- 14 15 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Whether it's too low -
sounds to me like it's about right. Len thinks it1 s a little lower than it would be in a private firm.
it It appears 17 to be a little higher than it is generally in the agency.
18 -Let me suggest it's not too bad. Further comment?
19 M~.- BICKWIT: We were anticipating three and two 20 of the first five. The four and one is much more 21 speculative.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. May I ask a question?
23 I had asked EDO and then shifted it back to OGC for an
.24 estimate for hunting for intervenor *funding included in the 25 budget, and I got an estimate, a rough estimate. Would I
l 000 04 04 45 mgc this be the appropriate line item in programs for OGC.if we
- 2 3
were to, as a Commission, vote to put that in?
MR. BARRY: You mean where to put it?
- 4 5
6 MR. GOSSICK: That depends on how the Commission would decide to set the pr_ogram up and administer it.
could be either place, I would assume.
It 7 MR. BARRY: It wouldn't necessarily show in the 8 OGC, but it would show in the program. Well, depending on 9 who is administering it, it could be just nothing more than 10 a budget category. It would show up in either the PTA or II PTS categories. That's where it would show in the budget.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Al though i t'.s far from 13 clear that the Commission as a group will endorse it, if we 14 were, would you give me by Monday, Len, just a line item
- 15 16 17 place to put that?
be in PTS.
MR. BARRY: Yes. I'll tell you right now it will 18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEt And under the Commission, 19 what o..ff ice?
20 MR. BARRY: It would be the people who determined 21 who 9ets what, and I guess it would* be based upon the 22 hearings and the contribution of the intervenor to the 23 hearings, so it -would be either, you know, OGC or the board, 24 the Hearing Board. In either case, that me~ns Program 25 Technical Support, just like the Grant Aid Program is under
I 000 04 05 46 mgc Technical Support, because it will be a state program
- 2 3
administered -
it.
it will be PTS. That's where we would put
- 4 5
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I would think you took it and called it program support for OGC in any case.
MR. BARRY: It would be the Board's probably.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Or identified as a separate 8 item .* Otherwise, you get it confused with OGC's five 9 kilobucks.
10 MR. BARRY: But in a sense, it's program support 11 in*the sense that you're paying for some advice from people.
12 CO'MMI SSIONER AHEARNE: You're paying for party 13 participation. What I'm saying is, it would properly be in 14 the category of program support. It would have to be 15 program support.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right. WeJll send that 17 along. Other questions?
18 (No response.)
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: WeJll discharge the General 20 Counsel.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I .think _he's done a good 22 job. '
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Only from the meeting. He has to come back this afternoon for the next meeting.
24 25 MR. BICKWIT: YouJre right. In the ~ajority.
I 000 04 06 47 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: There's safety in numbers.
- 2 3
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY~ Was one of many things you were going to come forward about 0as the majority question.
It crossed my mind again. You're going to come forward with 5 a paper which described in procedural format the number of 6 questions you raised. Can we anticipate that some time in 7 the relatively near future?
8 MR. BICKWIT: Yes.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYi This is on what?
10 COMM I SS !ONER AHEARNE: The procedures.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Our business, in order to 12 get it done.
13 MR. BICKWIT: I think you can anticipate that in
- 14. about a week's time.
- 15 16 17 COMM lSSIONER AHEARNE: On the OGC numbers, Len, I notice on your sheet that you have hear, the big sheet, it says the President's budget was 24. Current is 22. The 18 President's budget is 24, and the current estimate is 23.
19 MR. BICKWIT: We've given away a slot.
20 MR. BARRY: Yes~ Is that just an error?
21 MR. BICKWIT: No, that one slot.was transferred.
22 MR. BARRY: Yes. That's right.,_ They transferred 23 it. They transferred it from OGC into MPA, so the base 24 1 ine now is 23.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Except it's under the I
I 000 04 07 48 Conference Committee., why it" s 22.
2 MR. BARRY I Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That means if the delta is ten 4 and ten, it means those 33s become 32s in the out year.
5 MR. BARRY: If you ~ere going to honor that he did 6 have a legitimate requirement in "80, then your total would 7 still be 33 *
. 8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Joe? I see you've got us on 9 television again yesterday * . Was that in preparation?
10 MR. FOUCHARD: I"m not sure that would be in favor 11 or against me, sir.
12 COMM I SS !ONER KENNEDY: Would you explain while 13 you're here *""'."-
14 MR. RlUCHARDs May I be excused?
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Why, after Mr. Stello 16 having been asked a quest ion and started to answer it *-:--
17 MR. FOUCHARD: And Bob Hope came on the screen.
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: In a very good soft shoe, 19 but sort of irrelevant to the question, I thought. Maybe it 20 wasn't. And I wonder what MacNeil/Lehrer had to say about 21 that.
22 *MR. FOU CHARD: I don" t know that they even knew 23 it. We knew it in the control room. I knew they had some 24 problems, but I didn't know what it was. But they taped it 25 at 7:oo and showed it here at 7:30. I figured they would
000 04 08 49 mgc edit that problem out.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The problem was in it when 3 they ran it in the first place?
4 MR. FOUCHARD: Yes, sir. But it was a diversion.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It was peculiar. They must 6 have just lost a tape.
7 MR. FOUCHARD: The control room showed several 8 things including Bob Hope, including something else, and 9 they just must have switched to that particular picture at 10 the time, you know, because they were taping *
. II CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: By an error?
12 MR. FOUCHARD: Yes, sir.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The equipment was all right.
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It was a very, very clever 15 bleep, and I wondered what it was that Vic was saying.
16 MR. FOUCHARD: I believe he was talking about**-the 17 precursor of Davis-Besse. That was the question. What I've 18 asked for is an additional thr.ee professionals, frankly, as 19 s.oon as possible for Regions One, Two and Three. And 20 assuming that the pot of gold is at the end of the rainbow 21 there, an additional professional in the following year~s 22 budget.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The '81 position would be 24 headed for --
25 MR. FOUCHARD: It says five.
l 000 04 09 50 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Wherever you need it.
2 MR. FOU CHARD~ Wherever I need it is the answer.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What do you have currently 4 for the regions?
5 MR. FOU CHARD: One professional in each region.
6 We get our support from I&E. I believe in the regions where 7 there is a state liaison o1ficer, the public affairs 8 officers and the state liaison person share a secretary.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is the reason you have not 10 asked for Four and Five the smaller size?
J1 MR. FOUCHARD: Yes. I believe the workload at the 12 present time is in One, Two,_and Three. There are just more 13 plants, more activity, in those three regions.
14* (At 10:55 Commissioner Gilinsky left the room.)
15 MR. FOUCHARD: If I can just give you an 16 illustration, on the day of the minor release from Peach.-*
17 Bottom several weeks ago, a Region One public affairs 18 officer handled 120 telephone calls. These are not only 19 media calls; these are public calls. And the workload in 20 each of these regions as ~ell as Headquarteis has just 21 increased enormously. It~ s certainly worse since Three Mi le 22 Island. I think it began about a year ago when Seabrook 23 really turned public attention on the activities of this 24 Cammi ssion in a way which we really hadn't seen in the past.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The Great Sidewalk Event.
I
I 000 04 JO 51 mgc MR. R>UCHARD: That's part of it, sir. Yes, sir.
- 2 3
4 Just focus on the activities of the agency on a day to day basis, we hadn't seen that before.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, John, it seems all to 5 have started to happen about the time you joined us.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: You're welcome.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don't know what to draw from 8 that as an inference. Questions?
9 {No response.)
10 MR. BARRY: Just a comment, that it is an 11 immediate requirement in terms of need.
12 MR. FOUCHARD: Yes. If I could get something for 13 Region One as quick as I could, that would be a big lift, 14 and the others as quick as possible. But I should really be
- l5 16 17 staffing Three Mile Island a couple or three days a week.
We've got that much activity up there yet.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Of your nine spaces, are 18 they all filled?
19 MR. FOUCHARD: All except the Deputy,* yes, sir.-
20 And that recruitment is underway under the SES system with .,
21 the requirements.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think if the Cammi ssion -
23 well, let's see how the discussion goes. I think my own 24 view is that the* public affairs officers out in those
- 25 regions are -- you know, that the workload levels have
I 000 04 J 1 52 mgc gotten right out of hand.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I would support it, perhaps 3 in a slightly different way. I think if there were more 4 people in the regions, then they might also be able to spend 5 a little bit more of their time keeping abreast of the other 6 issues in the agency *
.7 MR. FOUCHARD: I agree. There are things we ought 8 to be doing that we simply are not doing.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: At some point, a person is 10 just trying to live off previous knowledgs, and they're II constantly interacting.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If all they do is just take i
13 phone calls all day long, why~ oh boy.
14 MR. FOUCHARD: You wouldn.,t believe it. It's 15 pretty heavy.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right. Thank you very 17 much. OPE level estimate, it seems to me the staffing level 18 is consistent with the directions of current discussions.
19 For whatever may happen in future budgets, this doesn't 20 appear to be a tims to mak~ great hoorahs here in di+/-ferent 21 directions in terms of the sort of budget 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Let me just ask a question 23 about the program support. I notice you dropped from '79 24 going into '80. Al, is that because you found you really 25 didn't need the money?
000 04 12 53 mgc MR. KENNEKE: As things were being run, that" s 2 correct.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And you see in the future 4 next year 5 MR. KENNEKE: That-'s entirely possible. It is 6 consistent.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Congressional level, the 8 auditor.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I want to ask a question JO about the Congressional. Is anybody here from JI Congressional?
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: They"re all down on the Hill.
- 13. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: My question really is, what
- 14. is the reaction that we"re getting back from Congiess as to 15 the adequacy of the coverage?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think --
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I didn"t think that was a 18 budget question.
19 * (La~ghter.)
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don"t think it"s answ~rable 21 from our side, really, John. I think we made, I think, 22 some useful progress in adding the two people in when we did*
23 last year. And I think, you know, putting them in as being 24 primarily as having the center focus of their duties to 25 serve, one for each ot*the committees -
I 000 04 13 54 mgc COMMISSIONER KENNEDY~ Do we have one from
- 2 3
4 Mr. Moffat's committee?
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No.
We might need an extra*
5 space, then.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Since the five plant shutdown 7 started and, wham, we went up, you know. We took the action 8 on the five plants and promptly got su~ked into about seven 9 hearings on that subject. And we.,re staggering out of that 10 Three Mile, and I expect, you know, it*'s sort of impossible 11 to keep up with. Here's Carl.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Carl, my question really 13 was, what sense do we get from the Congress as to the
- 14 15 16 adequacy of our coverage from the Congressional staff.
Addressing the size of your office, I'm trying to get some f~eling. Is that an adequate number?
I7 MR. KAMMERER: We've had no complaints as to the 18 number of people in the office. We have difficulty 19 sometimes with the information flows and found it's not 20 always the fault of timely notification with regard to the 21 number system.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: As far as you can tell, 23 that*' s an adequate number.
24 MR. KAMMERER: Yes.
25 COMMISSH>NER AHEARNE: Thank you.
/
000 04 14 55 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why don't we advance to the
- 2 3
auditor, the inspector and the auditor?
-* 4 5
6 7
8 9
10 JI 12 13 14.
- 15 16 I7 18 19
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20
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21 22 23 24
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CR? #5 DAV/PV 56 I should note a little background to the request for 2 six. It seems to me that the level of 34 in that office is a 3 level which has been discussed from the beginning.
4 MR. MESSENGER: Since inception, when we really 5 started to crank up in about September of '75.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That is when the Commission said, 7 "Here is the kind of inspection*and audit office we need'in 8 this operation." The staffing level -- as I remember, the num-9 ber was 34, bit it was felt, well, you know, if you're going to 10 run out and hire 34 people, you'll probably have trouble get-11 ting them all this year.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It was 34 back on the agency.
13 Was it 1800 or something?
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Back when the agency was whatever, 15 yes.
16 MR. BARRY: This came out when the agency actually-17 submitted their own budget.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So, the request went to a much 19 smaller number.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: In answer to the question.that 21
- John asked here, however, when the agency submitted that number 22 it had larger numbers in the out-years in 1800, and it was at 23 a 34 level. It represented -- it was assumed to grow.
24 MR. BARRY: Eventually, yes. Absolutely.
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25 MR. MESSENGER: So, it was 25. It was gradually goin
.......... J pv2 57 to phase into the 34. Also, we have a chance to see what the 2 investigative workload would be. Now it's quite heavy.
- 3 4
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What effect is there going to be with movement of the EEO examinations to the EDOC?
MR. :MESSENGER: Very little. The investigative work-6 load right now, I think, is 21 caseloads, which means that we 7 are still diverting auditors to assist.* People start complain-8 ing, and they don't get investigations done. -
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Hardly anybody complains when_ -
10 audits are done, except the auditors.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What I am talking about, how 12 are those 21 cases are EEO cases?
13 MR. MESSENGER: Zero# 6f the 21.
14 MR. GOSSICK: We have referred four cases to-the ,EEQC 15 after :this memorandum of understanding. We anticipate somewher 16 between half a dozen to a*.dozen, we just d,on't know, mo.r.e.Qr.
17 less,:: in the future. They will do them in something less than 18 a hundred days.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I was just wondering, would-20 this diminish the workload that's now on the OIA?
- 21 22 MR. GOSSICK: One of the reasons that we've moved, among others, is that they just weren't able to take these on 23 in a timely fashion because of staffing. So,* it's a matter of 24 relief.
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- 25. MR. MESSENGER: An item of note was that we had in
pv3 58 May and June 11,personnel devoted to TMI. We currently have 2 four auditors and one investigator in the Rogovin group, and
- 3 4
5 we have Ben Kelly, who covers the Kemeny Commission hearings part*-time whenever they meet.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Of course, that effort by '81 6 really will be gone.
7 MR. MESSENGER: So we will,hopefU:lly,get back. So, 8 what in effect the end result that it really suffers is on the 9 audit workload. Here there are outside requirements that have 10 a bearing on this 0MB Circular A-73, which says that we have 11 to have a plan -- at least the agency does -- annually, and we 12 do that through our annual report, and*we should have a reasona 1-
- 13 14 ble cycle of audits.
So, right now, it's somewhere. We're push.i,ng _f9r-15 seven years. Although GAO has never set a standard _for wha-t;,_* th~
16 cycle is, they have criticized agencies where it gets beyonq 10 17 years, where offices wouldgo without audits.
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:. How many of these six people 19 are auditors? . How many inspectors or, 1investigators?
20 MR. MESSENGER: What we would do is bring them in on
-- 21 22 23 the audit side because you can go from the auditor to investiga tor, but the investigator really is* very difficult to do audits because of the training. This is very similar to what the FBI
- 24
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25 does: They hire 510 *~eries .accountants! Jim Cummings is one.
Really, you have auditing subjects:'.inyour school to do it, so
pv4 59 the auditor -- and you always have an IG concept. The auditor 2 acts out the investigation because they have detailed knowledge
- 3 4
5 of the agency operations. That's when you get into the inves-tigations that go into program areas. The investigator usually goes over and works closely with the auditor.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Talking about program support, 7 you don't use any, so you don't feel there is no program sup-8 port dollars?
9 MR. MESSENGER: The only thing we have is travel, 10 really, and training, which I think is part of the admin. We 11 have a training budget.
12 MR. BARRY: Have you not considered consultant help 13 at all, or contractual help on certain things, to supplement 14 your staff?
15 MR. MESSENGER: We have.
16 MR. BARRY: We've encouraged that on other applica~-
17 tions, but I don't think they've used it at all.
18 MR. MESSENGER: On one ivestigation we started to pur-19 sue it, and then it fell through, didn't materialize. Right 20 now we are talking with the accounting side of the house and 21 usually going out for possible independent studies of the 22 accounting system and audit of our accounting system, because 23 in the financial area, which is a requirement of 0MB Circular 24 73, we just do not have the resources. '
' ::-e-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 I have a branch of four people that, in effect, cover
pvS 60 all the admin. program direction activities, assists on inves-2 tigations, and does most of the work, which we comment on every
- 3 4
5 draft manual in this agency, as well as handles the GAO liaison function. This is all done by these people.
So, that was one area that we are considering.*
6 MR. BARRY: As you know, we're in the process of 7 going through a GAO approval account system. When it happens 8 and the GAO approves it, there's no need to audit it for at
- 9 least a >Couple of years.
10 (Laughter.)
11 :CHAIMRAN HENDRIE: Clever thinking, Len.
12 MR. BARRY: Because if you're going to have GAO 13 approval, you know, an auditor --
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: The audit offices would be 15 delight~d to reach a level of understanding with you that 16 they're all right, you.don't have to audit them.
- 17 MR. MESSENGER: I might mention,~- and the chairman 18 has responded to a couple of these outside requirements doming 19 down; 'one is President Carter's memo to heads of agencies on 20 the elimination of fraud, waste, and error, where they're kind e** 21 22 of pushing this effort right now.
request of Mr. Gossick.
We issued this at the
- 23 24
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25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
mission in that?
MR. MESSENGER:
You aren't including the Com-We have a duty.
pv6 61
- 1 2
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
MR. MESSENGER:
Let's see fraud -- what is it?
Fraud, waste, and error.
- 3 4
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I want you to know that I have taken a position four-square against fraud, waste, and error.
COMMISSIONER KENNED~: My public statements are clear 6 in this regard.
7 (Laughter.)
8 MR. GOSSICK: You may recall I asked OIA to undertake 9 to-keep looking at GSA matters a few months .ago. I now have 10 their draft report, and we're in the process of responding to 11 it. I was looking at the _re_sponse last .. :ri~ght. It concludes 12 they weren't able to find it. There are a number of things 13 that were pointed out~
14 MR. BARRY: Could you say that a little different:J.y 15 just a little differently.
16 (Laughter.)
. 17 MR. GOSSICK: Clean or cle~er?
18 MR. BARRY: You were so positive when.you said they 19 couldn't find it.
20 MR. GOSSICK: But the report's been very helpful on
- 21 22 it in straightening out COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:. The BRG didn't look at any of 23 the Commission offices?
24 MR. GOSSICK: No, it did not.
I
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25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: No further questions? I think
pv7 62 that does us for this morning.
2 Thank you very much.
3 CO.MMISSIONER*AHEARNE: Len,* do you have any last 4 words of advice for us?
5 MR. BARRY: I will give you, before the day is over, 6 a substitute column for the chairman's request, in my best 7 judgement as to what the President's budget will come out.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It goes under the column "Curr.ent 9 estimated without supplement," and i t ought to reflect 363, 340 10 So --
11 MR. BARRY: And we will pin in some new numbers for 12 you. In fact, if you let me have what I just gave you, I will 13 pin them in. I can do it today and give it back to you.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right, I will surrender my 15 copy.
16 COMMISSIONER KENENDY: Mine also?
17 MR. BARRY: Yes, sir. I will give it back to you 18 this afternoon, and it wi*ll show you how it will come out.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: One thing, just before we break.
- 20 It has seemed to me on these markup sessions,which 21 are going to be closed meetings of the Commission, that the 22 tapes or the transcripts of them should be held until the 23 appropriations act.for '81 goes. We ought to have Lee and the
- 24. comptroller and the appropriate members'of the*budget review
,'\ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 group -- do you see any objection to office heads sitting in?
pv8 63 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I guess at the moment I would 2
rather just restrict it to the first group.
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I have no* . objection to office 4 heads sitting in.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I can't remember what we've 6 done. It seems to me, last year we in fact tbok a cut at it 7 with Lee and Len and the budget group first. Any:.1.preliminary 8 results that flow from that, I think the office directors ought 9 to have a chance to once more talk to us*.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: You see*, my feeling is that 11 we had -- they had their cut from BRG. They would comment to
I think we ought to go at it.
mark, then they can comment.
Then:,*. after we take our initial But I prefer not to try to get 15 into a debate with them. *.
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It isn't a question of getting 17 into a debate. I thought the question was could they be 18 present. And I reiterate I have no objection to seeing them 19 out there and listening to anything I have to say.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
- It was present, rather than
- 21 22 participation.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No, I understand.
e 23 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Unless there were questions.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: My own leaning would be "No. 11
- '.,.:0-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right, we'll see you this
pv9 64 afternoon.
.#5 2 (Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the meeting was adjourned.)
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