ML20217Q694
| ML20217Q694 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 04/01/1998 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-3031, NUDOCS 9804130098 | |
| Download: ML20217Q694 (149) | |
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DISCLAIMER UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S i
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 1
APRIL 1, 1998 The contents of this transcript of the proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Advisory
['T I
(_.)
Committee on Reactor Safeguards, taken on April 1, 1998, as reported herein, is a record of the discussions recorded at the meeting held on the above date.
This transcript had not been reviewed, corrected and edited and it may contain inaccuracies.
1 4
l
(~~N 1
o) l
309 1
UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 3
4.
ADVANCED REACTOR DESIGNS SUBCOMMITTEE i
5 6
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7
Two White Flint North 8
11545 Rockville Pike
]
9 Room T2-B3 10 Rockville, Maryland 20852-2738 11 12 Wednesday, April 1, 1998 13 The Subcommittee met pursuant to notice at 8:30 1
14 a.m.
15 MEMBERS PRESENT:
16 JOHN BARTON,' Chairman, ACRS 17 MARIA FONTANA, Member, ACRS 18 THOMAS KRESS, Member, ACRS i
19 DANA' POWERS, Member, ACRS I
20 ROBERT SEALE, Member, ACRS 21 ROBERT UHRIG, Member, ACRS 22 GRAHAM WALLIS, Member, ACRS 23 i
24 25
()
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PROCEEDINGS
()
2
[8:30 a.m.)
3 MR. BARTON:
Good morning.
This meeting will now 4
come to order.
This is a meeting of the ACRS Subcommittee 5
on Advanced Reactor Design.
6 I am John Barton, Chairman of the Subcommittee.
7 In attendance this morning is consultant James Carroll.
8 ACRS members in attendance are Mario Fontana, Thomas Kress, 9
Dana Powers, Robert Seale, Robert Uhrig, and Graham Wallis.
1 10
'The purpose of this meeting is to hold discussions 11 with representatives of the NRC staff and Westinghouse 12 Electric Corporation to gather information concerning the 13 AP600 advanced reactor design.
Presentations will include 14 items related to the Westinghouse standard safety evaluation
(~h (m /
15 report and the staff draft final safety evaluation report.
16 Chapters 2, 9,
9 A, 10, 12, 13 and 15 will be 17 covered during this two-day meeting.
18 The subcommittee will gather information to 19 analyze relevant issues and facts to formulate proposed 20 positions and actions as appropriate for deliberation by the 21 full committee.
Noel Dudley is the cognizant ACRS staff 22 engineer for the meeting.
23 Rules for participation in today's meeting have 24 been announced as part of the notice of this meeting 25
.previously published in the Federal Register on March 17,
~
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1998.
't 2
A transcript of the meeting is being kept and will 3
be made available, as stated in the Federal Register notice.
4 It is requested that speakers first identify themselves and 5
speak with sufficient clarity and volume so that they can be 6
readily heard.
7 We have received no written comments or requests 8
for time to make oral statements from members the public.
9 We will proceed with the meeting at this time.
I 10 call upon Mr. Bryan McIntyre of Westinghouse to begin.
11 MR. McINTYRE:
Thank you, Mr. Barton.
Continuing 12 where we were yesterday, we're going to be talking about 13 Chapter 9, auxiliary and secondary systems, followed by fire 14 protection.
Jim Winters is the cognizant section author for 15 that and Jim will make the presentation.
16 MR. WINTERS:
Good morning.
As Brian said, my i
17 name is Jim Winters.
I am responsible for all the fluid i
18 systems licensing in AP600.
19 The first hour, I'm going to try to keep you up 20 and going until we get thrown out for security.
We have 33 21 systems in the first hour and one system in the second hour, 22 and either of those topics could take all day.
23 We all have a lot of interest in the fire 24 protection system, so if we want to abbreviate the first 25 part, that's fine with me.
If we want to talk about ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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-sanitary drains for two hours, that's fine with me.
I have
(
)
2-enough information that we can talk about anything you want 3
to.
4 I have prepared a presentation that is an outline 5
that gives an opportunity for questions, if you have them, 6
and so, please, as you never have, don't hesitate to 7
interrupt and we will go where we want to.
8 On the first 33 systems, what I have done is i
9 broken them up by section of the SSAR, give you a list of 10 what systems are in those sections, and then go over the 11 major' differences or major points of interest that those 12 systems have of AP600 different from or interesting features 13 relative to current practice in PWRs.
14 I don't intend to go-over any system in detail, 15 unless you ask a question.
If you do, please do and we'll 16 pull out the figures or whatever it takes to answer the 17 questions.
18 Throughout the presentation, as far as we know, 19 there are no open items left with the staff on any of these 20 33 systems.
21 MR. McINTYRE:
Jim, before you go on.
Noel, do 22 you have his handouts?
23 MR. DUDLEY:
Yes, we have them.
i 24 MR. CARROLL:
I guess I'd like the staff to agree l
25 with Jim that there are no open items on this.
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MR. SCALETTI:
Yes.
We have closed out all the
()
2 open items in Chapter 9.
3 MR. WINTERS:
The first section of Chapter 9 J
4 includes fuel handling and storage.
It includes not only 5
the very passive racks related to new fuel storage, but also i
6 the spent fuel pool storage racks and cooling system and 7
cooling system cleanup, as well as the handling systems 8
relating to fuel handling and equipment handling in i
I 9
containment.
10 Our differences from past practices and 11 interesting features include our fuel movement system is i
12 similar to other PWRs, in that we flood the reactor and the 13 refueling canal inside containment.
There is a fuel 14 handling machine that runs over that arrangement, picks up
.(
15 the fuel assembly, takes it out into the canal, lays it 16 down, and it goes through a port containment penetration 17 into a flooded canal in our fuel handling building.
18 In other plants, that piece of -- that fuel 19 assembly would then be picked up by another machine to be 20 put into the spent fuel pit.
In our case, it's another 21 machine, as well, except that it is a duplicate of the fuel 22 handling machine in containment.
So this reduces the 23 possibility of operator confusion, which has happened in the 24 past, increases our capability of maintenance because 25 they're common and we can have one set of spare parts and A}
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whatnot.
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2 Another feature of our plant is that even though 3
we have an active spent fuel pool cooling system, it is a 4
non-safety system, and if power is lost or it breaks for 5
some reason, the spent fuel pool is analyzed to be passively 6
cooled.
That does require the pool to boil.
And for makeup 7
for boiling, we have a passive arrangement to allow makeup 8
water to come from the passive containment cooling tank.
9 That is a difference from past plants in that the 10 AP600 is designed around these passive systems.
The 11 probability investigations we have done on this non-safety 12 system would lead one to believe that we'd never need to use 13 the passive approach, but it is there and we've analyzed it.
14 MR. CARROLL:
In reading the description of that 15 system, of course, the Susquehanna flap came to mind and I 16 guess one thing I didn't find is -- is the instrumentation 17 that would tell the operator how he's doing on maintaining 18 the level in the pool and what's going on in there, is that 19 remote instrumentation?
20 One of the problems at Susquehanna is the 21.
instrumentation that let it go into the containment.
22 MR. WINTERS:
That's another feature difference in 23 AP600.from many plants.
AP600, except for a few purchased 24 packages, like the mineralized water, for example, or the 25 ancillary diesel, we have no strictly local instrumentation.
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()
2 data information system and that includes all the 3
instrumentation in the spent fuel pool cooling system; 4
levels, temperatures, pressures and pump status, and valve 5
statas.
6 So all the information is not only available in 7
the control room when that system is up, which it's a dual 8
system -- it's non-safety, but it's a dual system, so it has 9
redundancy.
But with the portable monitors that can be 10 hooked into the system from anywhere in the plant, you can 11 get the same information, because it's all available on the 12 data highway.
13 So the answer to your question is, yes, it's 14 available in the control room and the remote shutdown 15 station and in the diesel building,.if you would want to 16 read it there.
17 MR. UHRIG:
Is it alarmed?
18 MR. WINTERS:
Alarms are -- I don't know.
And why 19 don't I know?
AP600's design certification says that we 20 will go through a human factors process that will determine 21 what are the important parameters to be alarmed at various 22 stages of the operation.
Obviously, the operator doesn't 23 need to be worried about an alarm on spent fuel pool cooling 24 before there's even a core in there, like on the first core.
25 But during refueling, obviously, he would be or
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soon after a startup, because you've got a hot spent fuel in t
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2 the spent fuel pit.
That process will be completed and 3
reported on by the COL and, in my opinion, yes, it will be 4
alarmed, but I can't say now because that's part of that l
5 human factors process.
l 6
MR. CARROLL:
I think I remember, but tell me.
7 The design of the pool without cooling, say loss of power, 8
of f-site power or wha e:ver, is such that you can deal with a 9
full core off-load in the pool, plus whatever fuel is in 10 there.
11 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
The pool core, a full hot core 12
-- I mean, it's not a full core after it's been sitting 13 somewhere else for a year.
It's a full fresh off-load and a 14 third of the previous load.
I think that's what it is.
O 15 It's at least that.
16 MR. CARROLL:
And I guess one other thing that 17 your overview jogged my memory about is the spent fuel 18 transfer tube.
19 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
20 MR. CARROLL:
And the gap between the buildings.
21 Did I understand that there is some sort of a bladder that 22 you fill with water for fueling over the transfer tube?
23 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
Now, that -- yes.
But that's 24 not for the gap between the building.
That's -- there is --
25 if you remember, there is the containment shell, which is l
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the steam shell, which has the transfer port attached to it,
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which is the containment boundary.
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3 Then there is what we call an annulus, which is 4
the space between the containment and the shield wall, the 5
shield building wall.
Then on the inside of that, the 6
auxiliary building starts, but there's no real auxiliary 7
building wall.
It just uses the outside of the shield 8
building wall.
i 4
9 For various kinds of inspection, a person is 10 allowed inside that annulus.
If he's going to go in that 11 annulus, there is a bladder that is filled with 12 demineralized water from -- and I forget which system --
13 that provides additional shielding for that area.
14 The shielding streaming from the containment 15 through the port into the spent fuel pool, no shielding is 16 required, because you would have to be swimming to be in the 17
-- and you'd also have to be inside the fuel racks to get in 18 the way there.
19 So that shielding is -- yes, there is a bladder 20 there that takes up that gap because --
21 MR. CARROLL:
Why isn't it something permanent?
22 MR. WINTERS:
Because the containment moves 23 relative to the shield building and it's not worth -- it's a 24 very difficult design arrangement, because of the shapes 25 involved, to have a permanent arrangement there.
l
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MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
So I'm going to crawl down
,()
2 into the annulus and I fill up the bladder.
3 MR. WINTERS:
Well, the bladder would be full 4
anyway, but yes.
5 MR. CARROLL:
It is normally kept full?
6 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
How do I know now that I 8
haven't dropped a tool and penetrated it and'it's drained 9
out and I'm going to get fried?
10 MR. WINTERS:
Well, that's a restricted access 11 area.
To get through the gate, you're supposed to have your 12 hand-held meter with you.
Beyond that, there is 13 instrumentation on the bladder to show that it's got the 14 right pressure.
I believe it's pressure.
15 MR. SEALE:
A core and a third, fresh?
i l
16 MR. WINTERS:
They are not -- they are fresh 17 off-load, not fresh, brand new fresh.
18 MR. SEALE:
That's what I mean.
19 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
20 MR. SEALE:
A core and a third, did you say?
21 MR. WINTERS:
I said a core and a third because 22 it's at least that.
It may be two cores.
I can call and 23 check at lunch time.
24 MR. SEALE:
What is the boil-off rate of water at 25 atmospheric pressure to handle that load?
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MR. WINTERS:
I don't know.
I'll get that for you 2
at lunch.
3 MR. SEALE:
A pretty good river.
4 MR. UHRIG:
I did the calculation.
About 300 5
gallons a minute, something of this sort, to clear it out in 6
12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br />, I think, 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />.
7 MR. WINTERS:
It's 24, I think.
8 MR. SEALE:
Three hundred gallons a minute, did 9
you say?
10 MR. UHRIG:
In 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br />.
It would be 150, which 11 sounds awfully high.
12 MR. SEALE:
Yes.
That's a lot of water to 13 transfer passively.
14 MR. UHRIG:
But that's what you'd have to do get 15 rid of that, the gallons of, what, 168,000 or something.
16 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
I think that's about right.
17 MR. SEALE:
That's a lot of guys and buckets.
18 MR. POWERS:
Where does the steam go?
19 MR. WINTERS:
The steam goes into the atmosphere 20 of the fuel building.
When the temperature in the fuel 21 building reaches a certain level, which I think is 180 22 degrees, a damper port on the side of the fuel building l
23' opens'and then it's vented to atmosphere.
That is the 24 analysis -- that is the accident, the other fuel handling 25 accident that Jim talked about yesterday.
l
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By the time that steam gets vented to atmosphere, f
2-it's low activity and even with'not assuming dispersion, the 3
people in the main control room don't exceed their doses, 4
and, assuming dispersion, off-site doses are not -- or l
l 5
off-site release rates are not exceeded'by large amounts.
I l
l 6
mean, we're orders of magnitude away from any kind of l
7 limits.
8 MR. POWERS:
You said by the time this damper 9
opens, that steam is low activity.
10 MR. WINTERS:
It's partly "by the time" and the 11 other part is the concentration of iodine that actually is 12 in the steam that's going out the hole in the wall of the 13 fuel building.
14 MR. POWERS:
What you're saying is the b\\s /
15 concentration is just low.
16 MR. WINTERS:
It's very low, yes.
17 MR. UHRIG:
And this is borated water.
18 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
19 MR. UHRIG:
The BPM?-
20 MR. WINTERS:
Same was the RWC, same as the core 21
-- or refueling water chemistry.
22 MR. POWERS:
The pool is steel-lined?
23 MR. WINTERS:
Yes, with leak chases between it and i
i 24 the concrete, so we know if there's a leak.
25 MR. UHRIG:
You really have two pools here, a new l
(
l l ()
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1 fuel pool and a spent fuel pool.
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
The new fuel storage pit is a dry 3
pit.
4 MR. UHRIG:
It's dry.
5 MR. WINTERS:
However, the analysis for storage 6
there is of no criticality, even if it floods with demin 7
water,.not even borated water.
l 8
MR. UHRIG:
And that basically takes a little over 9.
third of the core.
10 MR. WINTERS:
The new fuel?
11 MR. UHRIG:
I think 68, if I remember right, or 12 something of this sort.
13 MR. WINTERS:
Something of that sort.
14 MR. UHRIG:
You don't envision a time when you'll 15 need more than that for a longer fuel cycle?
16 MR. WINTERS:
No, because even our longer fuel 17 cycles are third-core replacement fuel cycles.
But there is 18 capability to store new fuel assemblies in the spent fuel t
l 19 pit, if.you need to.
20 MR. UHRIG:
It's been done.
21 MR. CARROLL:
It seemed to me, at one point in 22 time, the staff was postulating, for dry new fuel storage, a 23 mist condition that made criticality easier to --
l 24 criticality expert, does that ring a bell?
25 MR. SEALE:
Say that again.
()
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MR. CAPROLL:
Postulating a mist of water
, ()
2 condition'in new fuel storage that made criticality easier.
3 MR. WINTERS:
Easier than flood.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Easier than flood.
Does that ring a i
5 bell?
l 6
MR. SEALE:
It's more like a thud.
l 7
MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
8 MR. UHRIG:
You have limits on the loads at the 1
1 9
jib crane and the new fuel rack and the spent -- and the 10 fuel handling machine, 2,000 and 5,000 pounds.
Are those 11 slip-plex type limits or are those electrical mode limits, i
12 stalled motor, or is pretty positive or is this just an 13 approximate?
14 MR. WINTERS:
It's a positive limit, but I don't 15 know which kind it is.
16 MR. UHRIG:
But it's not likely to be one that's 17 suddenly instead of 5,000, it's 15,000.
18 MR. WINTERS:
No.
19 MR. UHRIG:
Okay.
20 MR. POWERS:
Can you explain to me again why it is 21 that that this spent fuel cooling system can be non-safety 22 grade?
23 MR. WINTERS:
Because our safety store is the 24 passive story.
And we want it to be non-safety because once 25 you make it safety, then all of its support systems become
()
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safety.
And the whole point of AP600 is not to have that.
2 So once we proved to ourselves and then to the 3
staff that our safety case, being the passive boil-off 4-refill, was acceptable, then there is no need to make it
-5 safety, make the active system safety.
6 MR. McINTYRE:
Jim, could you talk about the 7
post-72 hour and that we did make some changes to the amount 8
of water available?
9 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
We had done the original 10 safety analyses and everything~was okay for 72 hours8.333333e-4 days <br />0.02 hours <br />1.190476e-4 weeks <br />2.7396e-5 months <br />, which 11 is three days, and then there was the question of what do 12 you do post-72 hours, now that you have the capability of 13 perhaps getting some help onto the site or something else.
14 We did attach our post-72-hour systems, which.is 15 called an ancillary diesel which powers the recirc pumps, 16 and there is an extra 300,000 gallons of water for use 17 post-72 hours in the ancillary tank, that we c; i move that 18 water also through the same lines, it just so happens, as 19 the passive containment cooling, into the spent fuel pit, as 20 well as the passive arrangement.
21 So we do have a post-72-hour arrangement for up to 22 seven days of getting water into the spent fuel pit, as 23 well, assuming there has been no fire truck available.
24 Now, if you pass the week and you still don't have 25 the capability of moving water or getting the spent fuel pit ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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324 1-cooling system going again, then you can pump water from 2
other sources, the river, whatever, by fire trucks, into
(
3 that spent' fuel pit.
4 MR. FONTANA:
Approximately what is the heat 5
generation rate of the spent fuel as a percentage of full l
6 power, approximately?
i 7
MR. UHRIG:
It depends when.
8 MR. FONTANA:
Pardon?
9 MR. UHRIG:
It depends how long it's been since 10 the --
11 MR. POWERS:
What happens is it comes --
l 12 MR. FONTANA:
It's designed for something.
l l
13 MR. POWERS:
It will drop.
My perception is it i
14 will drop down to about a half percent.
15 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
16 MR. POWERS:
And it will hold that for quite a 17' while.
18 MR. WINTERS:
That's what I was thinking, less
-19 than three-quarters or half or something.
l
[
20 MR. CARROLL:
Now, if one postulates a severe l
21 earthqt.ake that takes out or causes station blackout.
l l-22 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
l j
23 MR. CARROLL:
The piping that you have to the
~
24 spent fuel pool could also be damaged.
It isn't desianed 25 for seismic,_is it?
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MR. WINTERS:
The safety-related passive and
-2 post-72-hour connection to that passive piping is seismic.
3 It is safety-related.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
5 MR. WINTERS:
And the ancillary diesels are 6
seismically analyzed rugged diesels.
So that we have that
-7 amount of power post-72 hours.
Pre-72 hours, it's all 8
passive and we don't need -- and the piping is -- that 9
piping is safety-related.
l 10 MR. UHRIG:
To, say, shut down at.3?
i 11 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
l 13 MR. UHRIG:
You've got materials, i
14 neutron-absorbing materials in the spent fuel rack.
Has i
15 this been specified or is this something that's been left 16 for the utility to specify?
l 17 MR. WINTERS:
It's specified.
Now you're going to 18 ask me what it is.
I'm not sure.
I was going to say -- is 19 it cadmium?
Do we use cadmium sheets in there?
20 MR. BOYER:
No.
21 MR. CARROLL:
I 22 MR. WINTERS:
We'd have to look.
I'm not 23 going to say it's --
24' MR. UHRIG:
I guess the issue that I was raising 25 here was the stability.
I know there have been some ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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problems.
()
2.
MR. WINTERS:
That's why I don't think it is -- I 3
though it was something --
4 MR. CARROLL:
I think I looked specifically for i
I 5
the words Boroflex when I went through it and I didn't see 6
it.
7 MR. WINTERS:
I don't think it's there.
8 MR. UHRIG:
I didn't see it either.
9 MR. WINTER:
I'm pretty sure it's not that, but I 10 can't remember what it is.
11 MR. UHRIG:
Then the water has 2200 PPM boron.
12 MR.. WINTERS:
Right.
-13 MR. UHRIG:
In addition to the boron in the 14 material.
That gives you a K effective of.95 or less.
15 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
16 MR. UHRIG:
Under ideal -- under all conditions.
17 Okay.
The other issue is the suction strainers.
These have 18 been designed as large passive units that you don't have 19 active components to clean them or backflush.
20 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
21 MR. UHRIG:
They are passive.
22 MR.. WINTERS:
Yes.
23 MR. UHRIG:
Entirely.
24 MR. WINTERS:
Now, the. 95 effective, our analysis 25 is also it's not where -- geometrically, you can only put 1
()
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fuel assemblies in certain places, and that's part of the K
()
2 effective calculation.
But we also do the calculation with 3
one assembly not where it's supposed to be, laying down, 4
laying next to another one, and we're well below.95 in that j
5 condition, as well.
6 MR. UHRIG:
The material in the racks are 7
resistant to any influence of the boron and borated water.
8 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
l 9
MR. UHRIG:
They're stainless.
10 MR. WINTERS:
They're the stainless.
11 MR. UHRIG:
All stainless.
12 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
13 MR. UHRIG:
All right.
14 MR. WINTERS:
As is all the other structure and 15 piping stuff'that may be in -- that is in the pool.
16 MR. CARROLL:
Is there any loss of boron 17 postulated during this boil-off process in passive cooling?
18 MR. WINTERS:
We have done a number of 19 investigations of.that and believe that the boron will stay 20 in the water, which means the concentration will go on a 21 parts per million basis or a percent weighed basis.
It will 22
'go up for a while and then when you refill it will go back-23 down again, but there is no anticipated boil-off of the 24 boron itself.
25' MR. KRESS:
Is this boric acid?
((
)
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HMR. WINTERS:
Yes.
[)
2 MR. KRESS:
And this is low pressure boil-off.
v 3
MR. WINTERS:
Right.
l 4
MR. KRESS:
How did you make that calculation?
l 5
MR. WINTERS:
Don't know.
We'll have to call 6
home.
Brian, do you know how we did that?
7 MR. POWERS:
Assuredly, there is a partial portion 8
of boric acid over water.
l l
9 MR. KRESS:
Yes.
10 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
11 MR. KRESS:
The problem is it's a function of 12 temperature in boil-off and I think at low pressure 13 boil-off, it goes with the steam.
At high pressure, it 14 stays with the water, but I'd have to refresh my memory on
[
15 that.
16 MR. WINTERS:
We'll have to check.
17 MR. CARROLL:
Geo-thermal steam, like 100 pounds, 18 tends to carry a lot of boron with it.
19 MR. KRESS:
Yes.
I think at low pressure 20 boil-off, it goes with the steam.
21 MR. POWERS:
Suppose we do this, we're boiling off 22 and then refilling with some other water source, and boiling 23 off and refilling with some other water source.
Suppose 24 there is no -- or the boric acid partial pressure is 25 negligible.
What is the release rate of boric acid just due
()
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to entrainment processes?
How many times can I boil off and 2
refill?
3 MR. KRESS:
That's a good question.
I don't know 4
the answer to that.
j 5
MR. WINTERS:
We'll check that.
6 MR. KRESS:
My judgment was based on just the
{
7 equilibrium concentration in the steam.
8 MR. POWERS:
But there's this entrainment process.
k 9
MR. KRESS:
There would be some entrainment, too.
10 MR. POWERS:
And if it's a slow boil-off, it's 11 entrainment due to single-bubble bursting, which ought to be 12 higher than what you get for a rapid boil-off and things 13 like that.
14 MR. WINTERS:
I'll check the calculations.
15 MR. CARROLL:
You'll get some information and get 16 back to us on the boil-off question.
17 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
18 MR. SEALE:
Check your assumptions.
19 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
20 MR. UHRIG:
The maximum radiation level on the 21 surface of the water is 2.5 MR. per hour, according to the 22 report here.
i 23 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
24 MR. UHRIG:
And this is said to be equivalent to l
l 25
.005 microcuries per gram.
This assumes that the radiation i
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then is d.ue to the material in the water?
)
2 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
Leaking --
3 MR. UHRIG:
As opposed to direct radiation from 4
the fuel elements.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Well, there is some direct radiation 6
from the fuel elements, but this also assumes some leakers 7
in the spent fuel package.
8 MR. UHRIG:
And this presumably then assumes some 9
degree of fuel failure.
10 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
11 MR. UHRIG:
One percent, half a percent.
3 12 MR. WINTERS:
Quarter percent.
I 13 MR. UHRIG:
Quarter percent.
14 MR. SEALE:
How deep is the water above the fuel 15 pit?
16 MR. WINTERS:
Ten feet.
17 MR. UHRIG:
Ten feet is what I remember.
18 MR. CARROLL:
That's with an element pulled up.
19 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
20 MR. SEALE:
So when you fill that up with a lot of 21 bubbles, that will be about as good a shielding.
22 MR. WINTERS:
With bubbles, yes.
a 23 MR. SEALE:
With the steam.
'24 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
Recognize that that's an 25 accident condition and we're not going to have people
/
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running around in there doing refueling at this period.
()
2 MR. POWERS:
At 180 degrees, there are not going 3
to be too many people in there.
4 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
l 5
MR. SEALE:
Well, they'll be parboiled.
6 MR. POWERS:
Radiation release will not be their 7
major concern.
8 MR. WINTERS:
Not their concern.
The other 9
difference here is that many plants, if not most plants, 10 have taken their inception to 10 CFR 70.24, which requires 11 two active sources of criticality monitoring at all times.
12 We do not have an exception.
We have installed a number of 13 radiation -- permanently installed radiation monitors in the i
14 fuel handling area, so that all fuel is watched all the
)
15 time, except when it's in the new fuel storage pit with the 16 lid on.
17 Anytime anybody uses any fuel handling machine, 18 whether it's the jib crane or the spent fuel handling crane 19 or the large crane, when you bring the new fuel casks up 20 from the truck bay below, that device has to have a portable 21 monitor on it, as well.
So we don't have an exception, 22 unlike the past plants.
23 MR. CARROLL:
What is the detection principle, is 24 it neutrons or gamma?
25 MR. WINTERS:
It's gamma and it's rapid increase.
l ()
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MR. UHRIG:
Are you effectively assuming that 2
somebody is going to take the fuel away after a year or 3
about three years of operation, when you're -- what is it 4
you say, one and a third cores or two and a third cores?
5 MR. WINTERS:
The spent fuel pit can hold up to 6
two and some.
I forget if it's a third or two thirds.
It's 7
over two.
e 8
MR. UHRIG:
So this could be something like six 9
years of operation.
10 MR. WINTERS:
Right.,
Then that's all that's built 11 into AP600.
12 MR. UHRIG:
Does the utility have the option of 13 enlarging that pool?
14 MR. WINTERS:
Not keeping a standard plant.
That i
15 certification is based on that pool.
It would be difficult 16 and there is no enlargement capability built into the design 17 of the building.
Our standard design rack is not a high l
18 density rack, either.
Someone could probably get some more 19 assemblies into that pool with a different rack.
20 MR. UHRIG:
It would be a license amendment.
21 MR. WINTERS:
That would be a license amendment.
22 MR. UHRIG:
Probably done after operational.
23 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
24 MR. CARROLL:
But by the time the first AP600 has 25 got a full spent fuel pool, surely Yucca Mountain will be ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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available.
[)
2 MR. POWERS:
Boy, are you-optimistic.
3 MR. SEALE:
You got to get your priorities 4
straight here.
5 Let me verify one other thing.
You indicated that 6
you had the proper crane capability for handling these and j
7 transfer capability for handling these elements both inside 8
and outside the spent fuel handling area.
9.
MR. WINTERS:
Right.
10 MR. SEALE:
And you said something about a cask 11 that was used for shipping fresh fuel.
-12 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
13 MR. SEALE:
What about the capability of handling 14 a hot fuel cask?
That is, an irradiated fuel cask.
15 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
What I'm looking for is one 16 of my general arrangement pictures so that I can show you.
17 We're going to see this picture again, so I hope I don't get 18
'it out of order, when we talk about fire protection.
But 19 this shows you the area, t
20 Here is the refueling cavity.
Under this 21 refueling cavity is the reactor.
The port is right here 22 going through containment into the fuel transfer canal.
l 23
.This X is a machine that is the refueling machine, the same
\\
24-
.as the one on the inside, which will pick up and put the 25 assembly into the spent fuel pit.
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MR. SEALE:
A holster, yes.
2 MR. WINTERS:
A holster.
Over the spent fuel pit, 3
there is a Gantry crane that runs this way.
It can't go 4
over.
It's mechanically stopped, so it can't go too far j
5 this way, and the spent fuel pit casks or the spent fuel 6
cask loading is here.
There is a cask there.
i 7
This picks up that, puts it in the cask, and that l
8 crane then will pick up the cask and put it into the rail 1
9 car truck bay, which is here, and there are hatches.
This 10 elevation shows the lower level, but above it there is a 11 deck where the crane is and there are hatches here.
12 That crane is mechanically stopped, so that it 13 can't take a heavy thing over the spent fuel pit.
The new l
14 fuel storage is here and it can't go there.
I 15 To get fuel from a truck up, that same crane that 16 is stopped pulls up that and lays the canister down at this 17 end of the building with the fuel assembly in it.
Then to 18 move the new fuel this way, you have to do an inspection 19 before you put it away.
The hatch goes back on and you 20 can't get it to the new fuel side until you put the hatch 21 back on, so that you've got people downstairs protected.
22 Then you take the new fuel out 23 MR. CARROLL:
Protected from what?
i 24 MR. WINTERS:
From things falling down or 25 radiation or whatever, j
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MR. CARROLL:
Not for new fuel, but okay.
()
2' MR. WINTERS:
Right, but it's good to have that 3
hatch on when you're doing spent fuel.
4 MR. SEALE:
Spent fuel pool rigging accidents.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
Then it's inspected and 6
there is a jib crane.
There is this low weight jib crane 7
that can span this range.
It actually goes all around.
It 8
can pick up an inspected new fuel assembly here and put it 9
down into the pit or it can pick up a new fuel assembly and 10 put it into the fuel transfer canal to go into the reactor.
11 That crane has a limited travel, but it's also 12 limited in its capability, as well.
So that, again, we 13 don't have these heavy drops and analysis required here 14
-because the crane can't lift anything heavy enough.
15 MR. CARROLL:
What's underneath the cask pit?
16 MR. WINTERS:
A pump room, I think.
17 MR. CARROLL:
So if I drop a 75-ton --
18 MR. WINTERS:
It-will stay in that room.
19 MR. CARROLL:
It will what?
20 MR. WINTERS:
It will dent the floor, but it will 21' stay in that room.
1 22 MR. CARROLL:
I guess I would like to understand 23 why.
24 MR. SEALE:
Well, it surely won't bounce, that's 25 for sure.
()
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MR. POWERS:
Why won't it bounce?
Just chew up 2
concrete.
3 MR. WINTERS:
I don't have that picture here.
The 4
chemical waste tank room is under there.
5 MR. CARROLL: -And the floor is?
)
6 MR. WINTERS:
Concrete.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Reinforced concrete that presumably 8
is strong enough to resist --
9 MR. WINTERS:
I don't know what the drop height 10 was, but it's strong enough to resist a drop.
I don't know 11 if it's two feet or 15 feet.
12 MR. CARROLL:
I'd like to know about the 15 feet.
13 The maximum drop.
But it would probably cause the liner to 14 fail.
Does the liner have leak chases behind it on the O*
15 floor level?
16 MR. WINTERS:
The liner for that room is -- this 17 is_one of those module arrangements, where the liner is 18 integral structure, and that floor doesn't have a leak 19 chase, but drains directly into a drain.
20 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
So the liner is sitting right j
i 21 on the --
22 MR. WINTERS:
I'd have to check.
My memory is 23 that that floor doesn't have a liner.
That's a drained 24 radioactive floor or potentially radioactive floor The 25 walls are lined because they're the module integral steel ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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wall.
()
2 MR. CARROLL:
Well, why don't you get back to us j
3 on what kind of a drop you can stand?
l 4
MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
5 MR. WALLIS:
Going back to the spent fuel pool.
6 You said that someone has got to take it away after six i
7 years.
8 MR. WINTERS:
Spent fuel.
9 MR. WALLIS:
And then there was some sort of 10 laughter about Yucca Mountain.
Isn't this a real' issue?
'll MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
-12 MR. WALLIS:
Is anyone going to buy this thing if 13 they can't store more than six years of spent fuel?
14 MR. WINTERS:
This plant, the initial design has 15 more storage than plants have in the past and they're still 16 dealing with that.
17 MR.' CARROLL:
People are installing on-site 18 storage.
19 MR. WALLIS:
So you assume that if there'c a 20 problem, they'll fix it by building some other storage.
21 MR. WINTERS:
Or using the storage they have on 22 site.
We all hope that this country solves its spent fuel y
23
. problem.
I 24 MR. WALLIS:
Thank you.
And then to enlarge the building for
()
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an initial purchase to include capability for ten-year, l ()
2 20-year, 60-year life, whatever, that's just integral costs 3
that we hope the country doesn't need to -- the utility 4
doesn't need to spend because the country solves its spent n
(
5 fuel problem.
6 MR. CARROLL:
Racking with high density racks is a 7
viable option even after you've put spent fuel in the pool.
8 We did it at Diablo.
9 MR. UHRIG:
But your original design did not have 10 borated water.
11 MR. CARROLL:
Yes, it did.
12 MR. UHRIG:
It did.
13 MR. WINTERS:
Mr. Hutchings found the SSAR 14 statement of the assumed heat load for decay heat generation 15 that we assume, which is accumulated fuel for ten years, 16 plus a third-core, the fresh third core.
Ten years plus a 17 third of a core being placed into the pool beginning at 120 18 hours2.083333e-4 days <br />0.005 hours <br />2.97619e-5 weeks <br />6.849e-6 months <br /> after shutdown.
19 So that implies, depending on your fuel cycles, 20 upwards of -- it could be eight years, if we had two years 21 fuel cycle, eight cycles, whatever, four cores.
It's a big 22 fuel pool compared other new-design PWRs.
23 In the interest of time, we'll move on to water 24 cystems.
These are basically mostly uninteresting water 25
' systems.
All are non-safety.
A couple have some limited
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defense-in-depth capability.
)
2' MR. UHRIG:
I do have one question.
l 3
MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
4 MR.-UHRIG:
'It has to do with the service water 5
system.
It says that there's an automatic backwash strainer C
and then later it says an air-operated backwash valve.
And 7
the question basically-is if it's automatic, how often is it 8
activated?
Do you have any information at all on that?
9 MR. BARTON:
Strainer DP.
10 MR. UHRIG:
Strainer DP, is that what it is?
11 CHAIRMAN JACKSON:
I would imagine so.
12 MR. UHRIG:
It's timed then.
13 MR. WINTERS:
No, it's not timing.
It's DP.
14 MR. HUTCHINGS:
Usually those are designed for DP 15 or they can be set for time, if you want.
It's kind of an 16 either/or setup, but normally DP is used.
17 MR. WINTERS:
I'm pretty sure ours is DP.
18 MR. UHRIG:
Okay.
Thank you.
19 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
Interesting features of these 20 11 systems.
The only safety-related functions are related 21 to containment isolation.
There are -- chilled water goes 22 through' containment and on this list that's it, component 23 cooling water.
24 In addition, related to these systems, we'll talk f
25 a little bit latti this morning about the rules for fire i
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protection and making sure that we have some non-safety
(
2 capability of going to cold shutdown.
Part of that is 3
having a backup capability for normal RHR cooling.
Fire 4
protection has a connection to the component cooling water 5
system, which is the secondary side of the normal residual 6
heat removal system, and we have a once-through capability 7
of cooling off the normal RHR with fire water, if necessary.
8 The last time we were here, we talked, about t
9 chilled water.
Remember, in this plant, in-containment 10 coolers, fan coolers are not required for safety, but we do 11 use them if they're available.
The question then became, on l
l 12 some PWRs, there's a problem on restart.
Your chilled water 13 system, after it's warmed up, you get a hammer.
14 We have designed the system to minimize that two 1
15 ways.
One, just to protect the system, we've got relief l
16 valves in there so that the chilled water doesn't go solid l
17 and burst the system, but, secondly, we've got slow-opening 18 valves and we've checked the design of the routing to 19 minimize -- and I have to use that word because we don't 20 know if we've eliminated it, but we've done everything we 21 can to minimize water hammer in the chilled water system.
22 MR. WALLIS:
I was going to ask you.
When you 23 minimized, what minimum did you reach?
24 MR. WINTERS:
I don't know.
In our analysis, we 25 believe we've got zero, but that --
l i
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MR. BARTON:
Does it satisfy the generic letter
()
2 that the NRC had out on this issue?
3 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
4 MR. BARTON:
It does.
Okay.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Now, we don't need it.
So even if 6
it does blow up, it's a convenience, not a requirement.
7 MR. WALLIS:
Then it spills on the floor?
8 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
The in-containment chilled 9
water system and hot water system are one.
We only have one 10 set of penetrations and then there's -- if you need heat, 11 which you'd only need during your fueling situation or an 12 outage situation in the wintertime, you switch over and put 13 hot water into the containment chiller.
14 MR. SEALE:
It's an "or."
It's not an either/or.
15 MR. WINTERS:
It's an "or."
And it's not set up i
16 to mix either.
You either put in hot water or you put in 17 chilled water.
Okay.
19 MR. CARROLL:
What is the generic letter you were 20 referring to?
21 MR. BARTON:
96, something or other, j
22 MR. CARROLL:
On chilled water systems?
l l
23 MR. BARTON:
No.
This had to do with water 24 hammer.
25' MR. WINTERS:
Pressure lock on chillers
()
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in-containment because what would happen is they needed them
()
2 and they'd heat up, the water would get hot in the chiller, 3
then you'd turn on the cold water and it wouldn't work.
4 MR.. CARROLL:
Okay.
I guess this was one of Carl 5
Michelson's favorite topics, chilled water systems, and I 6
know Carl was pushing the staff very hard like five years 7
ago to write a meaningful standard review plan section on 8
chilled water systems.
Has that ever come to pass?
9 MR. LYONS:
This is Jim Lyons from the plant 10 systems branch.
Actually, I'm trying to remember now.
We 11 did do a standard review plan update and I'm not sure 12 whether it got addressed in there.
It was an issue that we 13 looked at as part of that, but 14 MR. CARROLL:
Can you get back to us later on 15 today?
16 MR. LYONS:
Yes, I'll get back to you.
In this 17 case, they don't have safety-related chilled water systems, 18 so it makes it a little different.
19 MR. CARROLL:
I know, but that's kind of a 20 fiction, in one sense, too.
21 MR. WINTERS:
Compared to conventional --
22 conventional.
Compared to past nuclear plants, our hot 23 water heating system is more akin to non-nuclear power 24 plants in that we use smaller pipes and to get the heat 25 where it needs to go, we use a little higher temperature.
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The hot. water heating system is already classified i
'2 as a high energy system and adding the temperature to it 3
didn't change its classification.
So when we do pipe break 4
analyses, the hot water heating system is considered.
5 MR. SEALE:
You've given up either one or the 6
other, either chilled water'or hot water, in any given 7
operation, because you've only got one penetration through 8
this containment, j
9 MR. WINTERS:
Yes, sir.
10 MR. SEALE:
Okay.
Have you asked yourself what 11 capabilities you have denied the applicant by limiting the 12 availability of either chilled water or hot water during, 13 say, a refueling outage?
14 MR. WINTERS:
Actually, in our view, the way the 15 design went, we've added capability, because we had no hot 16 water in containment until he said, gee, I could have a 17 winter outage, and we said, okay, well, we'll put some hot 18 water in there.
19 This is consistent with our utility sponsors' 20 review of needs for hot and chilled water in containment.
21 MR. SEALE:
Okay.
l 2,.
MR. WINTERS:
In general, all you need is chilled 23 water, because when you're operating, obviously, you're hot 24 in containment, you're hotter in containment.
The only time 25 you'd need hot water is -- so to answer your question in one ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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word, no.
How do we know that?
Because it's consistent 2
with the ORD and has been reviewed by our 16 utility 3
sponsors.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Why don't you talk about that a 5
little bit, the review process?
6 MR. WINTERS:
The review process.
The 7
first-of-a-kind design for AP600, which was designed beyond 8
that necessary for design certification, was sponsored and 9
partially paid for by a consortium of 16 utilities of the 10 United States.
The consortium is called the Advanced 11 Reactors Corporation, ARC.
12 They created, for us, as well as for other 13 advanced plants, the utilities requirement document, which 14 we have met, and, in addition to that, have reviewed the O
k_s/
15 detailed design deliverables for the systems in a graded 16 approach.
But clearly for the detailed design of all the 17 safety-related systems, a semi-detailed design for all of 18
.the secondary systems, for power generation, and for chilled 19 water and HVAC, and, to a limited extent, for those syetems
[
20 like sanitary drains and potable water that don't really 21 affect the design.
22 So that's how we get our utility buy-in and they 23 do give us comments and there is a monthly meeting that goes 24 over problems and it's a regular -- just like they were a 25 real buying customer.
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MR. McINTYRE:
And I think it's also important
()
2 that we had four utility people on-site for four years, five 3
years, right there in our buildit.g, Jay, that watched us and 4
helped us and interacted with us.
So we truly had daily 5
input.
6 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
That was four at a time for 7
a total of seven different --
8 MR. CARROLL:
What kind of people were these?
9 Operating or design?
10 MR. WINTERS:
Operating.
They were all utility 11 operating type people.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Because often utility design people 13 don't know a lot about some of these systems or anymore 14 about them than new design guys do.
15 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
The last unique feature here 16 is many plants have distributed chilled water and hot water 17 heating systems, a number of heaters and chillers.
We have 18 two centralized systems.
19 Process auxiliaries, here we have ones that can 20 more closely affect some of our safety systems or handle 21 radioactivity.
Differences in the interesting features.
22 Again, here, all these systems, which, in some plants, are 23 safety-related, the plant gas system or the compressed air 24 system, for example.
At our plant --
25 MR. WALLIS:
Excuse me.
What is a plant gas ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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system?
2 MR. WINTERS:
We have a number of gases we use for 3
various things ~, hydrogen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide.
That 4
system is where we collect the information for those 5
hydrogen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide systems.
Hydrogen is 6
used for chemistry control of primary fluids, nitrogen is 7
used in a number of cases for motive power for air operated 8
or gas operated valves, and carbon dioxide is also used for 9
some chemistry control.
10 MR. CARROLL:
And carbon dioxide and hydrogen are 11 used in the generator gas system.
12 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
Now, the generator cooling 13 system comes with the generator, but it's supplied by the --
14 when it leaks or you blow down, it's supplied by the 15 hydrogen bottles of the plant gas system.
16 MR. CARROLL:
Or when you purge it by the CO2 17 system.
18 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
All the safety-related 19 functions are limited to containment isolation or, in the 20 case of CVS, reactor coolant boundary isolation.
21 The gas systems are not required for 22 safety-related functions of gas operated valves.
Any gas 23 operated valve that needs gas pressure to close or to do its 24 safety function, of which there are, I think, only four, 25 they.all have nitrogen bottles in their operators and that's i
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the stored energy that's used to operate the valve.
'O 2
All the other gas operated safety valves, 3
safety-related valves in this plant operate on loss of 4
pressure.
So that the gas system itself is not 5
safety-related.
6 CVS is the coolant cleanup and volume control 7
system.
It is simplified for a number of reasons.
One of~
8 the biggest is that there is no reactor coolant pump seal 9
and, as a result, there is no planned leakage.
10 We have a volume control tank so that we don't 11 have to have'de-gassing of -- we have natural de-gassing as 12' opposed to this continuous active.
13 We have eliminated the boron recycle and thermal 14 regeneration systems because this plant doesn't have active 15 boron concentration control for power shifts, only for 16 long-term burnup shifts in reactivity.
17 We have eliminated the makeup water system, which 18 was a high pressure system.
We put purification inside 19 containment.
Another one of our features is that when this 20 plant needs to, it shuts containment and there is no need
)
21 for anything to come in or out of containment, and 22 purification was one of the -- and the penetrations 23 associated with purification were some of the penetrations j
24 that we wanted to eliminate.
25 So now CVS only has makeup and let-down p
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penetrations through containment, in a general sense.
t 2
MR. WALLIS:
Can we go back to this volume control 3
tank?
How does that work?
4 MR. WINTERS:
When you heat up, you need to -- you i
5 have too much mass, so you have to off-load mass from the 6
reactor coolant system and so you actually force the water 7
out to this volume control tank.
8 MR. WALLIS:
How does that eliminate continuous 9
de-gassing?
10 MR. WINTERS:
In some plants, the volume control i
11 tank was more integral with the system, and so there would 12 be a lot of interchange between the volume control tank and 13 the reactor coolant system, because we have a bigger 14 pressure and because we only use this thing once in a while.
15 MR. WALLIS:
You've puzzled me.
I didn't quite 16 see how volume control is related to de-gassing.
i 17 MR. WINTERS:
That's where it was performed.
You 18-would cycle reactor coolant through the volume. control tank 19 to de-gas it.
That's where the de-gassing is.
20 MR. WALLIS:
It has eliminated the de-gassing.
21 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
22 MR. WALLIS:
So what happens to the gas now?
23 MR. WINTERS:
The gas that's liberated on initial 24 heatup we take out through vents.
25 MR. WALLIS:
I'm sure the staff understands this
!=
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~1 and has reviewed it,'but I don't.
2 MR. WINTERS:
'I'm trying to_ figure out an easy way 3
to explain what-we're doing.
Brian, do you have a way, 4
other than saying that -- we collect the gas in the high 5
points of the system, which, in this case, are the 6
pressurizer and reactor coolant head, and vent them as 7
opposed to --
8 MR. WALLIS:
We had a discussion about other 9
places they might be collecting.
10 MR. WINTERS:
They might be collecting.
But 11 during the pre-operational test and hot functionals, you 12 wash.out all of the gas that may have collected there, 13 because you actually pump through all of the places.
You go l
14' through the PRHR, for example, with the reactor coolant I
15-pumps on and that washes --
l 16 MR. WALLIS:
It goes through'the CMT balance 17 lines.
g i
18 MR. WINTERS:
CMT balance lines, plus there's high point vents on the CMT balance lines on heatup.
19' 20 I apologize for this word.
This word is -- it 21 looks like what that says, but it really says purification.
22 No matter what it reads, it says purification.
l 23 We reduced the boron concentration to 2.5 percent j
l l
24 and it's not controlled during operation for power changes, i
25 only for life changes, and we have'no heat tracing or room i
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heating required, which is related to one of the other O
. (,, _
2 auxiliary systems.
For example, boric acid tanks.
3 MR. CARROLL:
We skipped.over air systems or I 4
don't.see them coming'up.
5 MR. WINTERS: _Yes.
They are similar.
They're in 6
this section, compressed and instrument air.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
8' MR. WINTERS:
There was no -- maybe it's not in 9
yours.
It should be the sheet before that.
10 MR.-CARROLL:
Maybe I looked too fast.
Oh, yes, I 11 see it.
Okay.
12 MR. WINTERS:
We have a high pressure system.
13 MR. CARROLL:
I know what you've got, but you made 14 a commitment during pre-operational testing to test these
(- I 15 according to Reg Guide 1.68, Rev.
3.
16-MR. WINTERS:
Which includes a rapid 17 depressurization and a slow depressurization.
I 18 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
19 MR. WINTERS:
And we have committed that and 20 that's in'the SSAR in a number of places.
21-MR. CARROLL:
And does it include breaks at 22 various places?
23 MR. WINTERS:
The actual details of the test 24 program are the COL's responsibility.
We say you have to do 4
25 it in accordance with that reg guide and specify both
(
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11
. conditions of rapid and slow.
2 MR. CARROLL:
Rapid and slow are good.
3 MR. WINTERS:
The break locations are not 4
.specified..
5' MR. CARROLL:
Break locations may be important, 6'
also.
7 MR. WINTERS:
But the development of that detailed 8
program is a COL requirement 9
MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
Thank you.
'10 MR. WINTERS:
These are our HVAC systems.
I 11 showed you a little picture yesterday, which I can put up 12 again, if-you'd like.
We've got them scattered around to 13 try to manage the air flow and airborne radioactivity flow.
-- 14 Except for containment isolation and LAN main I
15 control room isolation, all HVAC systems described in 16 Chapter 9 are non-safety-related.
There is a safety-related 17 habitability system in the main control room, called the 18 main control room habitability system.
That's described in 19 Chapter 6 and the magic Mr. Schultz will discuss that when 20 he gets here.
21 However, in order to maintain a boundary around 22 the main. control system, these -- the VVS system here does 23
' isolate and create the boundary for the habitability system 24 to work.
25 Systems and subsystems are segregated and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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1 controlled to promote control of airborne radioactivity in 2
smoke.
Yesterday we talked about the pressure differences 3
and how the pressure is higher in a clean area and lower as 4
you progressively get to more potentially dirty areas.
5 On-smoke, we have fire areas defined by smoke 6
dampers or fire dampers or both or combination dampers, and 7
we have a variety of pressure differences and air management 8
schemes-that try to promote the control.
-l 9
MR. WALLIS:
Is this another one of those 10 uncertain words or is there an analysis of how smoke 11 actually permeates through these different rooms?
l 12 MR. WINTERS:
It's uncertain and the staf.f and 13 -.
Westinghouse have had a number of discussions of, well, it 14-looks like the smoke is going to go here and no, it isn't, 15 and, well, you've got to do something else.
And we've done
'16 some things and --
17 MR. WALLIS:
It doesn't sound like an engineering 18 analysis.
It looks it might go here.
Can't you analyze 19 where it does go?
1 20 MR. WINTERS:
Actually, what we do is we analyze 21 where it can't go and then there are places where it won't 22 go if the door closed and it will go if the door is open, 23 and those are all part of the fire analysis done by a 24 qualified fire engineer and some of it is black art.
25 MR. WALLIS:
Maybe it shouldn't be a black art if ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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it's important.
()
2
'MR. POWERS:
It seems to me that there are a lot 3
of_very good models of the performance of HVAC systems, but 4
they were never designed for systems like this.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Our problem is not the HVAC system 6
moving the smoke from one place to another where you don't 7
.want it.
It's the smoke migrating across the HVAC 8
boundaries, across fire boundaries, and then finding its own 9
way somewhere elbe.
10 There aJe NFPA requirements or -- not 11 requirements.
I'll take that back -- suggestions and 12 recommendations on relative pressure differences.
They have 13 also done a number of analyses and studies on what velocity 14 of air or pressure difference is required to -- like if Q(s/
15 smoke is in this room and we open that door, how much air 16 has to be rushing in that door to keep the smoke from going 17 out.
18 We don't have that everywhere.
We've added or we 19 have enough air to keep certain stair towers clear of smoke 20 by those rules.
In other cases, when that door gets opened, 21 the smoke is going out.
Now, is it going to go someplace 22 bad?
That's the analysis we went through.
23 And assuming where we don't want the smoke is over 24 here and that door is closed and that door is open, well, it 25 doesn't go over there, it goes out there.
And that's the
(
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1 kind of analysis we've_gone through.
2 As far as a detailed hydrodynamic analysis of l
3
_ where all air goes and when you have a fire where the smoke 1
4 goes, we have not done that.
Nobody does that.
We do it 5-more by black art.
6 MR. WALLIS:
IE it true nobody analyzes smoke flow 7
through buildings?
It would seem a straightforward --
8 MR. WINTERS: ' Analyze is a different word for a 9
smoke guidance for thermal hydraulics.
10 MR. WALLIS:
The thermal hydraulics, right.
11 MR. CARROLL:
That's right.
12 MR. WALLIS:
And it's more or less single phase, 13 unless you treat -- you don't treat the smoke as another 14 phase.
So you ought.to be amenable to many standard 15 techniques.
16 MR. CARROLL:
That's right.
Ivan always says that 17 fire protection is a thermal hydraulic problem.
18 MR. KRESS:
It's really a fluid mechanics problem.
19 MR. POWERS:
Just to make sure that Ivan's view 20~
isn't totally pervasive, let me ask you this question.
You 21 look at smoke, but one of the peculiarities of the kinds of l
22 fires that we postulate in nuclear power plants is they also i
23 generate HCL, Do you treat HCL as though it's traveling 24 with the smoke or do you give it its own peculiar 25 properties?
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MR. WINTERS:
With the smoke.
)
2 MR. POWERS:
So the fact that it's highly soluble 3
in water is just neglected.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
5 MR. CARROLL:
Now, when you do these analyses --
6 again, I'll refer to the infamous Carl Michelson.
He always 7
tried to make people understand that three-hour fire doors 8
are not smoke barriers.
9 MR. WINTERS:
That's true.
10 MR. CARROLL:
Good.
He at least got one convert.
11 MR. KRESS:
In deciding where you don't want smoke l
k 12 to be, obviously you don't want it with people, but do you i
13 also consider protecting electrical and electronic i
14 equipment?
\\p
!ks 15 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
The rules, which, for the rest m
16 of the morning, ve'll probably call Appendix R rules, l
17 although Appendix R doesn't strictly apply to AP600, the 18 rules say that you have to protect safety-related equipment, 19 especially electronic equipment, from smoke migration.
20 We've done an analysis to show that if you have a 21 fire that's affecting one division, the other three i
1 22 divisions are protected from the smoke of that fire.
Then 23 we have also gone through a time line analysis, if, given 24 time, we can go through today, that a fire within that 25 division shouldn't cause --
()
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MR. CARROLL:
Unwanted.
2 MR. WINTERS:
Shouldn't cause unwanted actions, 3
spurious actions that are debilitating to the plant.
We 4
have done those types of analyses.
That is the analysis we 5
use as opposed to the mechanic problem of putting a fire in 6
every room and deciding where the smoke goes.
7 MR. POWERS:
Do you address the issue -- we may be 8
getting into the 9-A discussion.
9 MR. WINTERS:
That's fine.
It's all this morning.
10 MR. POWERS:
When you look at the effects of fire 11 on a system, do you look at the effects of fire on 12 instrumentation and it's just a failure of the 13 instrumentation or do you consider the possibility that that 14 instrumentation will start sending incorrect values?
l 15 MR. WINTERS:
The way it was done is that we 16 assumed the failure -- in one mode, we assumed the failure 17 of all instruments in a fire area or a zone in a containment 18 that could be affected.
Then on the other side, we said 19 what is the worst wrong thing the instrument could do.
We 20 didn't analyze each wrong thing, but decided which would be 21 the worst wrong thing and said, okay, how are we protecting 22 ourselves against that worst wrong thing.
23 MR. CARROLL:
Give me an example.
24 MR. WINTERS:
The classic one, and we don't need 25 to get into the discussions of definitions, but what people ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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i 1
normally call hot shorts, and that hot short doesn't have to
.( (
2 occur in a cable tray.
It could occur on an electronic 3
device.
So it sends a signal that it didn't intend to send 4
because power got to the dead leg or dead line.
5 That, for us, could conceivably open an ADA Stage 6
IV, which is clearly not a result you want from a fire in a 7
waste basket.
8 So those are the kinds of discussions we went 9
through in quite a bit of detail among ourselves and our 10 subcontractors and highlights of that with the staff.
11 Okay.
HVAC owns the site vent, the site stack and 12 concentration is within the allowable limits.
There are 13 radiation sensors that close dampers or divert system 14 exhausts to the HEPA filters and a number of standard
.s/
15 things, to make sure that we don't have high radioactivity 16 going out the stack.
17 We do control and monitor normally or potentially 18 normal habitable spaces to this occupational derived air 19 concentration limits.
20 MR. WALLIS:
Concentrations of what?
21 MR. WINTERS:
Radioactive, airborne radioactive 22 isotopes, BCs.
23 MR. WALLIS:
There is no airborne concentration of 24 smoke.
25 MR. WINTERS:
No.
()
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MR. POWERS:
Or HCL.
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
Or HCL or chlorine from the guy next 3
door.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Hydrogen fluoride.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Or hydrogen fluoride.
Now, there 6
are requirements on the COL applicant that he has to worry 7
about off-site hazardous gases.
We've got a system that 8
limits their movement around the plant, but he has to make 9
sure that he has.it sited in a place that challenges the 10 limits that we have set.
11 MR. CARROLL:
That reminds me of an issue.
Do you 12 use freon in any application --
13 MR. WINTERS:
No, sir.
14 MR. CARROLL:
-- inside the containment?
15 MR. WINTERS:
No, or in any other refrigerant.
1 16 MR. WALLIS:
You don't use any other kinds of fire 17 suppressants that make, say, hydrogen fluoride.
18 MR. WINTERS:
No.
We have no fire suppressants in 19 the --
i 20 MR. CARROLL:
No Halon?
21 MR. WINTERS:
No Halon.
The bottle -- the 22 hand-held fire extinguishers are -- we just go out to the 23 hardware store and buy them and give them to the utility.
'24 They are standard.
25 MR. BARTON:
Dry chemical.
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MR. WINTERS:
Dry chemical.
C\\
( )
2 MR. POWERS:
You won't be getting Halon that way.
3 MR. CARROLL:
The reason I asked the question is 4
that traditionally Westinghouse has put an air conditioning j
5 unit in the seal table room and I have always worried about 6
Halon getting loose in there because neutrons will do 7
interesting things to it.
8 MR. POWERS:
I don't think you're allowed to use 9
Halon.
You're not allowed use Halon anymore, are you?
10 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
11 MR. POWERS:
Halon nor freon.
12 MR. WINTERS:
Our room coolers are all cooled by 13 chilled water.
The chilled water system has two subsystems, 14 one of which is air-cooled, but there's -- we don't have the
, r"s k_
15 refrigerants.
l 16 Other interesting features, which I've discussed l
17 all of these.
We've separated, along safety division lines, 18 as well as importance to safety lines.
We have multiple 19 levels of protection for main control room operators.
20 If there is high airborne radioactivity or smoke, 21 this is one place where we do worry about smoke, the system 22 converts to a highly filtered recirculation system and if 23 that gets worse, then it shuts down altogether and we go to 24 this self-contained habitability system, the safety-related 25 one.
()
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We talked about the stack, no requirements for
()
2 internal cooler operation, digh levels of standardization 3
is not necessarily a safety thing, but it clearly is of 4
interest to the utilities.
We have multiple air handling 5
units around the building.
Some of those are over-sized 6
because they are the same sizes.
So we can buy ten of one 7
size ae opposed to twc each of five sizes.
8 I'm sorry, Jay,-you had a question.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
We have a fire in a division 10 and the operator, I guess, knows about it because he gets an 11 alarm in the control room --
12 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
13 MR. CARROLL:
-- that tells him where it is.
Then 14 he has to go do things with the ventilation system to O
15 i
control smoke?
16 MR. WINTERS:
No.
But we'll talk about that a 17 little bit more.
l l
18 MR. CARROLL:
All right.
I 19 MR. WINTERS:
If the fire -- there are two rooms 20 where he will have to do something to make sure that he 21 doesn't get this division to do something wrong because of 22 the spread of the fire itself, but not necessarily the smoke 23 itself, and all of that is contained within a single 24 division.
25 I have a better picture for that later on.
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361 1
MR. CARROLL:
All right.
I don't want to get you 2
ahead of yourself.
3 MR. WINTERS:
The last systems in Chapter 9 here 4
include kind of a dog's lunch of systems.
You'll notice 5
that 9.5.1 is not included, and that's because that's fire, j
6 and we will talk about fire in a minute.
7 Interesting features is lighting.
We_have normal 8
lighting and emergency lighting.
All of these words just 9
mean that in the main control room, emergency lighting looks 10 like regular lighting.
We don't have the little boxes with l
11 little headlights on it.
12 They're.in the fixtures in the overhead.
They're 13 just powered by an emergency battery-backed uninterruptible 14 source.
16 MR. CARROLL:
Don't use that term.
16 MR. WINTERS:
Semi-interruptible source.
17 MR. CARROLL:
I hate people talking about l
18 uninterruptible sources.
19 MR. WALLIS:
It's like certain professors in i
20 class.
21 MR. WINTERS:
Outside the main control room, we 22 have -- emergency lighting us the battery-backed head lamps.
23 In addition, the emergency lighting provides illumination 24 for 72. hours.
It can be backed up by the station diesel.
25 The battery packs around the building are eight-hour battery ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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packs.
I 2
The panel lighting also has 1-E type sources for 3
its power in an emergency situation.
4 The standby diesel and aux boiler, fuel oil 5
system, serves no safety-related function.
Our station 6
diesels are not safety-related.
However, we did meet the 7
applicable requirements from the branch technical position 8
regulatory rules for a -- I forget the number, that's why I 9
stumbled there -- for a fuel oil system.
It has a 10 sufficient supply of fuel for seven days.
It also has fuel 11 for seven days of the aux boiler.
The aux boiler is used 12 for startup.
13 And the ancillary diesel, which is the 14 post-72-hour diesel power supply, has a four -- its own 15 four-day supply of fuel.
16 MR. UHRIG:
How big are they, do you rementer?
17 MR. WINTERS:
They're 25 KW.
They're little.
We 18 call them our portable
---I mean, our recreational vehicle 19 diesels.
That's about the size they are.
20 In general -- not in general.
Completely, the aux 21 systems are adequate to support AP600's design 22 certification, and there are no open items, and Mr. Scaletti 23 reinforced that.
24 MR. WINTERS:
Are there other questions on 25 auxiliary systems before we go on to fire protection?
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Which, again, is another hour-and-a-half.
2 MR. BARTON:
Jim, I think I'll propose, since 3
we're running a little bit behind, that we take a break now l
4 till five after ten.
Then I know there is a lot of interest 5
in-the fire protection system.
So rather than break in the 6
middle of that, we'll break now, till five after ten, and 7
come back and start the fire protection.
8
[ Recess.]
9 MR. BARTON:
We're back in session.
Jim will 10 proceed with Section 9.5.1, fire protection.
11 MR. WINTERS:
Now we're going to talk about fire 12 protection and, again, we can talk a long time.
There was a 13 recent two-day symposium on this in Santa Fe, for example.
14 I think that's where we all should go and talk about fire 1S protection.
16 MR. POWERS:
It had very little to do with modern 17 and passive plants.
18 MR. WINTERS:
I'm going to break this up into the 19-basis of our discussion here.
Actually, it's Westinghouse's 20 interpretation of the basis for regulation on AP600, which 21 is different, then talk about our design and the philosophy 22 behind our design, some special areas of special attention, 23
. smoke migration being one, and then come to a conclusion.
24 MR. POWERS:
When you discuss basis, could you 25 discuss also the basis for the special attention you're ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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giving to smoke?
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
Briefly.
Okay.
The 3
regulatory basis for AP600.
We had to plow a couple new l
4 furrows with AP600.
First of all, by the 10 CFR 50, 5
Appendix R, which is the fire protection appendix, legally 6
strictly doesn't apply, but it has a good set of rules which 7
were basically rewritten in BTPCMEB 9.5-1.
We have used 8
those rules -- both Westinghouse and the staff have used 9
those rules as the basis rules for AP600.
i 10 In addition, there were a number of fire-related 11 SECYs issued by the staff for advanced plants that tried to 12 raise the bar, if you will, for design of new plants with 13 respect to a number of issues, smoke control is one, and 14 some other issues, which we have tried to adhere.
N s/
15 At the end of the day, we have to show the staff 16 that we have adhered to the Appendix R 9.5-1 set of rules
}
l 17 and the SECYs or have requested and been granted exemption 18 deviation from that.
19 However, we had to slightly modify our definitions 20 for adherence to 9.5-1.
I'll say Appendix R from now on.
l 21
-Appendix R has a number of rules about the times and l
22 requirements to get to cold shutdown.
The basis for AP600 23 is it is a passive plant.
That's our safety basis.
We are 24 not an active basis.
25 As a result, in discussions with the staff related ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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to tech specs related to other definitions,.we have a
()
2 condition called safe shutdown, which is not the classic
.:t cold shutdown base, because cold is-less than 200 degrees 4
and passive raechanisms won't get you there in a reasonably 5
short time.
6 So we came up with a set of rules applying AP600 7
that chere term and the condition defined in the tech spec 8
says safe shutdown, could be the legitimate end-state for 9
fire accidents, provided that we also did some other things, 10 which we call the three caveats, which are related to, but 11 are extensions, modifications, interpretations, whichever 12 one of those words you like, of the Appendix R rules, in 13 order to make the safe shutdown distinction applicable to 14 AP600.
C_,
15 These are Westinghouse words.
This concept, I 16 have been told, is repeated in the FAR.
We have not seen 17 it.
The fire reviewers are here, if there is a different 18 interpretation by the staff, I'm sure they will speak up.
19 There should be no fire-induced actions which 20 result in uncontrolled release of reactor coolant from the 21 reactor coolant system boundary.
For example, a fire should 22 not induce ADS IV or should not induce ADS I, II and III in 23 an uncontrolled fashion, or should not induce any other 24 thing that would release reactor coolant to the 25 in-containment environment.
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MR. POWERS:
The requirement here is you don't
()
2 induce ADS IV at all and then you -- correct?
3 MR. WINTERS:
Correct.
4 MR. POWERS:
And then you said very carefully it 5
doesn't induce ADS I, II and III in an uncontrolled fashion.
6 MR. WINTERS:
We have -- there is one fire that we 7
identified in one place that if you assume the -- now, this 8
is the rules.
It's all assumption, but it's an assumption 9
set of rules.
That the whole fire area or zone burns up 10 everything in it, you can't fix, so that you have to assume 11 that the plant has to operate without that stuff.
12 In order to make sure we don't have an 13 over-filling of the primary system, we will have to let down 14 through ADS I in one place.
15 MR. POWERS:
That's a deliberate action.
16 MR. WINTERS:
A deliberate action by the -- with a 17 valve that's designed to control release.
It's not like a 18 relief valve on the pressurize, which is designed for steam 19 and water goes out and you're not sure it can close again.
20 This is a controlled let-down of reactor coolant through ADS 21 I.
22 MR. WALLIS:
But these ADS valves operate on the 23 basis of a signal, 24 MR. WINTERS:
You can also do it manually.
25 MR. WALLIS:
There are all kinds of ways in which i
()
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t 367
~
1 f'.e can interrupt signals.
)
I 2
MR. WINTERS:
Fire analysis is very interesting.
3 The fire that requires you to use ADS I is nowhere near ADS 4
I.
It's actually outside containment.
The fire in ADS I 5
area, we: don't need ADS, and --
6 MR. WALLIS:
But it could still result in --
7 MR. WINTERS:
That fire cannot result in movement 8
of that valve.
9 MR. WALLIS:
There is no way that a fire can --
10 MR. WINTERS:
No way 11 MR. WALLIS:
--burn up some control system.
12 MR. WINTERS:
We have to show that that's the 13 case.
14 MR. WALLIS:
There is no way?
A) k, 15 MR. WINTERS:
Well, there is a very low s
16 probability.
I'm kidding now.
There is a very low 17 probability.
In fact, tests --
18 MR. WALLIS:
If I took a blow torch into the right 19 place, I could burn up an electrical connection or 20 something.
21 MR. WINTERS:
If you took a blow torch anyplace in 22
'this plant, you could not make ADS open to reactor coolant 23 because we have redundant valves and they are in different 24.
places.
We have redundant controls and they are in 25 different places.
A single blow torch will not release ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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reactor coolant anywhere.
! (~m) l(
2
.MR. WALLIS:
But can it then prevent it from 3
opening when you want it?
l 4
MR. WINTERS:
No.
Not a single blow torch.
5 MR. WALLIS:
Not a single.
I have to have two 6
blow torches?
7 MR. CARROLL:
Two locations.
8 MR. WINTERS:
Two locations and coordinated 9
actions by a number of people.
10.
MR. BARTON:
Sounds like sabotage to me.
11 MR. WINTERS:
That's the next topic.
Am I done 12 here?
We can go on to security.
13 MR. POWERS:
No, you're not done here.
14 MR. WINTERS:
Anyway.
That is the mental exercise
(~
\\
\\
15 we have to go through, is to make sure that a fire doesn't
)
16 cause or prevent actions that would be required.
17 Then we went on to make sure that there is 18 adequate separation, suppression or additional features to 19 minimize the demands for safety-related systems to bring the 20 plant to shutdown.
21 MR. WALLIS:
You use minimize again.
22 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
23 MR. WALLIS:
How low does it have to be to be good 24 enough to be minimizing?
)
25 MR. WINTERS:
When the staff says we've done l
~
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enough, then we've done enough.
()
2 MR. WALLIS:
Minimize means making it low enough i
3 so the staff says it's okay.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
L 5
MR. WALLIS:
Okay.
I understand.
L 6
MR. WINTERS:
That's the practical definition.
-7 Now, they had a goal and the goal was that there were none 8
that we knew of.
We got down to none that we knew of but 9
one, but that on was this uncontrolled -- not uncontrolled b
10
-- the controlled release of ADS I on one particular fire.
11 The reason for this is our whole fire analysis is l
12 based upon protection of the passive safety systems.
But we l
13 could have fires that would take the operator's capability i
14 of using his normal systems away from him, that he wouldn't i
15
-- he'd have to rely on passive RHR as opposed to steam 16 generator cool-down.
17 That isn't necessarily good design in the long 18 haul.
So we.went through the exercise to protect normal 19 systems, which are non-safety-related.
They are not part of l
20 our safety story.
They're not, in some definitions, j
21 required by Appendix R, but it makes good sense.
It can be 22 applied in the Appendix R definitions for protection.
So we l
l 23 went through the exercise.
24 The other one was that we needed to do the right l-25 things in containment so that no fire in a single zone in
(
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containment would prohibit the operation of PRHR.
- Now,
()
2 remember, to get PRHR to work, the only thing you have to do 3.
is open one valve.
One of two valves.
When we started down s
4 this path, there was a fire zone that could be taken out 5
that would prohibit the capability of opening one of those 6
two valves, and we designed that prohibition out.
7 Now we have shown to ourselves and the staff that 8
we can take a fire in containment and still get that valve 9
open in time so the PRHR is available.
10 There are two parts to the classic definition of 11-fire protectica in the rules of the staff.
One is the 12 actual fire protection water supply design itself and then 13 what you've done to the plant with respect to layout, 14 separation, suppression, time line, all the rest of the 15 stuff that -- outside the realm of actual water supply, that 16 you have an adequate plant design to support good fire 17 protection capability.
18 MR, WALLIS:
There is no requirement on 19 combustibility?
20 MR. WINTERS:
Yes and no.
We have to'show what 21 the combustible loading for each area room are and then 22 based upon what the expected loading would be, provide 23 adequate fire protection to that space.
The rub comes with 24 transient fire loading, like on overhauls, downtimes, and 25L the applicant, the owner has to control the transient
()
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combustible loading.
r~3
(
,/
2 MR. CARROLL:
Tell us what a transient combustible 3
might be.
4 MR. WINTERS:
A transient combustible might be, 5
for example, scaffolding that you would use, temporary 6
scaffolding because you have to repair some paint on the 7
inside of the containment wall or something, and so you 8
bring in some two-by-fours.
9 Another transient combustible loading m.tght be 10 that you carry some lubricant around with you be ause you're 11 fixing some motor-operated valves or something.
12 MR. CARROLL:
How about a 55-gallon drum of 13 acetone to clean stainless steel?
14 MR. WINTERS:
That's one, too.
The design -- in f(_)
15 this plant there are certain corridors for transients.
16 Those corridors are looked at specifically for transients.
17 There are other areas whe tet it's hard to get transients to.
18 All the control areas, aux building, for example.
You've 19 got to go out of your way to get transients in there.
You 20 have to be bringing them in for a specific purpose.
21 MR. WALLIS:
But you're usually allowed to control 22 them, too.
You don't have to use two-by-fours or 23 scaffolding.
24 MR. WINTERS:
No.
That's right.
25 MR. WALLIS:
There are plenty of other platforms im
'('")
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of scaffolding which don't burn.
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
And what can the design do?
The 3
design car do very'little to control transients, other than 4
make it hard to get eight-foot two-by-fours into the main 5~
control room, because of the way you have to go through the 6
doors.
7 The applicant and the owner has to control his 8
transients c: elsistent with the design of the plant.
9 Now, are there limits on combustibles?
It's kind 10 of a circular argument there.
We didn't put limits whta we
-11
- made the design, then we figured out what combustibles were 12 expected to be in that room, and now that becomes a de facto 13 limit that you don't get too far out from that.
14 The water system is a classic system in that 15 connected to this corner of this fire header,-which is in 16 the yard, it's a circular ring.
There are two fire pumps on 17 two big tanks, either of which can feed off of either tank,
-18 to pressurize the fire -- the main fire ring header that 19 goes around the plant and has a number of fire hydrants on 20 it.
- 21 MR. BARTON:
If you jump ahead to security a l
l 22 little bit, is this in what you would call the protected or 23 in the owner-controlled area, this ring header?
24 MR. WINTERS:
Within the protected, I believe.
Is
)
25 that right.
Yes.
It's within the protected.
i l
()
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MR. BARTON:
In the protected area.
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
Then there is an extension, 3
we call, that runs through the buildings to supply j
4 sprinklers and hose stations within the buildings.
This can 5
be fed from either end and can be isolated at various 6
places, if, for example, an accident broke it here, we can 7
still pressurize the whole works up to that valve from the 8
other side.
9 This is standard design and the mains are sized to 10 support hose streams at hydrants and hose stations and 11 various sprinkler stations that are required.
12 MR. POWERS:
Before you take that off.
13 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
14 MR. POWERS:
Can you discuss the seismic 15 interaction with this system?
16 MR. WINTERS:
Appendix R requires us to have a 17 seismically protected supply of fire water to suppress fires 18 in safety -- areas that have safety-related equipment.
19 Martin?
20 MR. GREENE:
Martin Greene, from Southern Nuclear, 21 Southern Company.
The question you asked is whether the 22 fire pumps are within the protected area.
They're actually 23 within the vehicle area.
They are not within what we call 24 mutually protected areas.
25 They are not within what we normally consider ANN RILEY & ASSOCIP.T3S, LTD.
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protected areas.
They're in our vehicle area.
I 2
misunderstood exactly what your question was.
3 MR. POWERS:
All right.
Thank you.
4 MR WINTERS:
Now, back to the seismic part.
The 5
concept of AP600 was to be a passive design on major 6
accidents.
And the other concept is that the only q
.7 safety-related equipment we have in this plant are on the 8
nuclear island, which is the auxiliary building and 9'
in-containment in the seal building.
10 Our source of seismically-protected water for that 3
11 safety-related area is the top 18,000 gallons of the 12 containment, passive containment cooling water storage tank 13 on top of the shield building.
14 That's gravity-fed into the mains.
It connects to 15 this pipe, it's not shown in this picture, and that supplies 16 the hose stations and the in-containment sprinklers with 17 sesmically-protected pipe and valves and systems.
18 MR. POWERS:
Are there other systems connected to this piping system or is it totally independent?
19 i
20 MR. WINTERS:
There's a number of things connected 21 to this system now, since the last time we talked.
In 22 addition to that seismically-protected standpipe, passive 23 standpipe, the post-72-hour ancillary tanks can also be 24 connected to this system, because it fills the passive l
25 containment cooling water tank at the top.
That's got 1
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seismically-analyzed diesels and the recirc pumps are
()
2 safety-related pumps.
So there is that supply that is 3
connected.
4 The service water system can take water from one 5
of the main storage tanks, main fire. water storage tanks, 6
but its penetration through the tank is at a level above 7
300,000 gallons.
So it can only take down to its level.
8 The ancillary tank I just talked about, I forgot 9
to mention its normal suction for supplying water for 10 passive containment cooling is above the 18,000 gallons 11 necessary to support the fire water and there in another 12 connection that you would manually open if you needed that 13 water for fire water in the safety-related areas after 72 14 hours1.62037e-4 days <br />0.00389 hours <br />2.314815e-5 weeks <br />5.327e-6 months <br />.
15 The only other connection to this system in a 16 non-fire sense is -- two more.
There is a connection here 17-that you have to manually operate if you need the supply.
18 Your third cooling capability to the normal RHR cooling 19 system, if you have to go to cold shutdown and you don't i
20 have power, if you don't have off-site power and you have to l
21 use one of your on-site diesels to get that water there.
22 And so we didn't have to add an additional 23 penetration into containment, when we were required to put 24 the containment spray, which is inside containment -- this 25 is different than containment cooling -- the containment l
l
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spray comes off of the fire water penetration header into 2
containment.
3 That's all.
That's all.
We still consider that 4
to be none because we don't believe you'll use any of those 5
things.
6 MR. POWERS:
The question is can you get a 7
spurious actuation or, for instance, a spray that depletes 8
your water resources?
9 MR. WINTERS:
No, for a couple reasons.
One 10 remotely operated closed valve that's in the spray line and 11 the other manually closed valve, that's a containment 12 isolation valve, to the penetration.
In order to get fire 13 water into containment, you have to go manually open, 14 locally manually open of the containment penetration valve.
15 MR. POWERS:
Okay.
So --
16' MR. WINTERS:
So it's a deliberate act.
The 17 containment spray system won't go unless it's a deliberate 18 act by the operators or somebody else.
Then if it does go, 19 by the way, and now you get into how you combine accident 20 scenarios, the way the system is normally lined up, you will 21 only get the first 18,000 gallons off of the containment 22; storage water and you have to take another deliberate action 23 to get the main fire header onto that system.
24 Now, because we only have one accident at a time, i
25 you can do that.
So this is all non-seismic piping outside
(
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what we're talking, outside this seismic standpoint.
So if 2
. we have a seismic event, you won't have the containment 3
_ spray at the same time.
So I think we're okay there.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Now, 18,000 gallons, to put that 5
into perspective, what does a hose station nozzle deliver?
6 MR. WINTERS:
There are two hose streams of 75 GPM 7
for two hours _and_that is what is required by Appendix R for 8
this system.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
10 MR. WINTERS:
By the way, that's at the highest 11 elevation.
Remember, this is gravity-fed.
So that's at the 12 highest elevation that there is a hose station.
Lower down 13 in the building, it's more than that, obviously.
14 MR. CARROLL:
Now, when you're doing things like
!O (m,/
15 using a fire penetration into the containment for a second 16 purpose, containment spray, have you played that off with 17 the potential insurance carriers to see if they think that's l
18 okay?
19 MR. WINTERS:
No.
20 MR. CARROLL:
I'have had the experience that they 21.
get very upset when you're compromising a fire system in any 22 sense.
23 MR. WINTERS:
This arrangement was considering the 24 other effects, which would be an additional containment
- 2. 5 penetration for containment spray, an additional supply for
()
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containment spray was the least onerous.
It is not without
()
2 its problems and we don't want to pretend that it is.
This 3
is not what we would call an optimum system.
4 MR. SEALE:
It's interesting.
You said this 5
18,000 gallons is 275 gallon per minute streams for how
-6 long?
7 MR. CARROLL:
Two hours.
8 MR. SEALE:
Two hours.
9 MR. WINTERS:
Two hours, yes.
10 MR. SEALE:
That's interesting because I think a
'll little earlier you were talking about 300 gallons a minute 12-for makeup water to take care of steaming in the spent fuel 13 pool.
14 MR. WINTERS:
Different pipe, different.
15 MR. SEALE:
But it's still water.
16 MR. WINTERS:
Still water.
J
~17 MR. SEALE:
So it's a half =--
18 MR. WINTERS:
It's half of the 300.
19 MR. SEALE:
-- of what you would require to handle 20 the spent fuel cooling.
21 MR. WINTERS:
Now, the other thing is that we also 22' have twice as much head on that, too, Bob, because this is 23.
at the highest elevation in the aux building and that's at 24-the 100 elevation.
So you've got an extra 60 feet of head 25-there, too.
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MR. SEALE:
Yes.
( );
~
2 MR. WALLIS:
So besides worrying about effects of tj 3
fire and smoke on things that matter, you have to worry 4
about the rifect of all this water you're going to spray.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Absolutely.
We could talk about 6
that now.
One of the things that we wanted to do to protect 7
the systems within the auxiliary building, which are 8
safety-related systems, is we started out with a design 9
approach that had no water in there except this 18,000 10 gallons, BCC's then we wouldn't have flooding problems as a 11 result of using that water, and that clearly was enough to 12 put out the fire.
13 In containment, we wanted no extraneous sources of 14 water, because in containment we have to worry about I'
)
l
(_/
15 containment flood-up on a LOCA or use of capacity of cooling 16 systems, and we have to maintain boron concentrations.
17 So we have to limit the amount of unborated water 1
18 into containment, which is another consideration on the 19 availability of water to put into containment.
That's why 20 even though we do have some suppression in containment, it 21 has to be a deliberate act by the operator, so he knows he's 22 putting water into containment and it's limited, unless he 23 puts the main header on, which is a second deliberate act, 24 it's limited to this 18,000 gallons, which we have analyzed 25 into our boron concentration discussions.
e
(
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Containment spray is not to be used until severe
()
2 accident anyway.
You've passed your need for worrying about 3
boron at that point.
So putting some containment spray in 4
there doesn't affect the normal boron concentration 5
calculations.
6 So, yes, we have to worry about where the water 7
goes inside the nuclear island and we have and we have drain 8
systems and levels.
We calculate levels if the drain system 9
is not working so that the safety-related gear doesn't get 10 flooded and that kind of stuff to satisfy all the concerns 11 of the staff.
12 MR. WALLIS:
It's not just a question of it being 13 on the floor, though, because that doesn't spatter around 14 every level?
O-s/
15 MR. WINTERS:
No, not every level.
16 MR. WALLIS:
It does go on the floor, though.
17 MR. WINTERS:
It goes on the floor.
l WALLIS:
And eventually it drains down to the 18 MR.
19 floor, but meanwhile it may have soaked a lot of other 20 things on the way.
l 1
21 MR. WINTERS:
In the room.
The rules for fire 22-analysis, and that's a loose word compared to thermal 23 hydraulic analysis, is that you assume that if a fire goes 24-off in an area or a zone in containment, that everything in 25 that area is destroyed, whether it's by the fire or by the
()
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water or by the guys with their axes because they're
()
2 indiscriminate or whatever.
3-The analysis has to say that --
4 MR. WALLIS:
That's what you assumed.
5 MR. WINTERS:
_That's what we assumed.
We were 6
joking this morning that I would start this by saying that 7
we minimized the chance of buyers and minimized their 8
consequences, and then assume it happens anyway.
9 MR. WALLIS:
Maximize the consequences in your 10 assumption.
11' MR. WINTERS:
Which is completely at' odds with 12 yesterday's discussion.
That's where we are here.
13 Here are some of the statistics related to the 14 water delivery system.
We only take credit for 600,000 15 gallons of fire water.
The tank-pressure is atmospheric.
16 The system pressure obviously is downstream of the pumps and 17 it's at 300 feet.
18 Two fire pumps, both located each in their own 19 fire area'in the main turbine hall in the. northeast corner 20
-- east corner.
One is motor driven and one is diesel 21 driven. 'That's for diversity so that you're sure you have
'22
- one going.
The seismic standpipe system we talked about
-23 before, and the head there depends upon what hose station 24 you're using; 25 This is one of our fire protection maps.
The J
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plant, this is jast the nuclear island, but the other
()
2 buildings are similar.
The plant is broken up into fire 3
-areas, which are bounded by these heavy lines on this 4
picture.
The. heavy lines denote a three-hour barrier, which 5
have two-and-a-half hour doors, which are not smoke 6
barriers, but whatever.
7 Definition of a fire area says that the fire is 8
contained within'that area and that you fix your interfacing 9
system, such as HVAC, drains and systems that would 10 communicate from one area to another, so that that area 11 becomes isolated.
12 That means that by that definition, inside i
13 containment can only be a single fire area because we need 14 transfer of gases within containment and we need i\\ss/
15 communication, especially in a flood-up situat. ion of disins 16 and whatnot, in containment to satisfy our pat.sive safety 17 story.
18 So inside containment is only a single area.
We 19 do fire analysis, however, based upon zones within that 20 area.
Zones are areas that are separated by distance or by 21 structure, so that we can say I can burn up this whole zone 22 and nothing bad happens, but it doesn't affect an adjacent 23 zone, other than smoke, and then you have to worry about the 24 transport of smoke, because we don't have the isolation of
)
25 HVAC, for example.
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This just happens to be at the maintenance deck h) 2 level, which is the 100 level, and it shows, from an v
3 elevation point of view, some of the features that we did 4
for safety-related equipment.
5 You notice we have division A, C,
B and D, four 6
divisions of our safety equipment.
Those are stacked on 7
each other.
It starts with the batteries on the bottom, the 8
DC switch gear, the I&C rooms coming up, and they're all 9
stacked.
These are different fire areas in a stack.
A and 10 C are on one subsystem of HVAC, totally separate from 11 another subsystem that B and D are on, HVAC.
12 However, a fire in an area, let's say, for C, the 13 fire and smoke dampers would isolate that from the HVAC 14 supply to A.
That's one way that we mitigate smoke
(
(,
15 propagation.
That also maintains pressure, HVAC pressure in 16 the unaffected divisions, that the division that has a fire 17 goes to whatever pressure it goes to.
18 In looking at the end now, what I'm going to do is 19 take a slice through the building, looking this way.
Here 20 is the same clean aux end, here is D, B,
and B includes this 21
- room, C,
and A.
The main control room is its own separate 22 fire area, separate from the fire area the remote shutdown 23 station is in, and the equipment rooms are separate fire 24 areas.
l 25 Then after having split up the -- oh.
That means p) i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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-- and because of our I&C approach to life here, there are
-G(,)
2 no common areas like' cable spreading rooms in this plant, 3
except for the main control room.
The remote shutdown
~
4 station really isn't because it's all run by soft controls 5
and so there -- it's separated by the fact that you have to 6
have intelligence in your control device.
7 The spare battery room is its own fire area.
If 8
we need to use the spare battery room, it gets physically 9
hooked up to whatever battery -- whatever division you want 10 by attaching two disconnected ends of this cable, and it 11 becomes then a part of whatever division it started from.
12 So it's, again, a separate fire area from the other 13 divisions.
14 MR. POWERS:
So to make that connection, I have to 15 physically walk down to the spare battery room.
16 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
You have to walk to two 17 places.
You have to walk to the spare battery room and the 18 division battery room to which you want to connect the spare 19 battery.
Now, that's not an operation you do during a fire, 20 but once you've done that, then you've placed that battery 21 in whatever division and there is a corridor on the back 1
i 22 side and we assume that that battery is in the division that
]
23 now has a fire, and it has then to be separated from the l
24 other three divisions.
That's what we did.
i l
25 That was the basis for the layout.
We collected
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)
1 equipment so that we could do this fire separation and we
()
2 did our HVAC design and drain design to promote that.
3 I think that answers an old question on the 4
separation of HVAC and divisions.
5 The areas for special attention that I would kind 6
of like to go through, and if these are -- if you'd like a 7
different area, we can, but the areas here are spurious 8
actuation and separation, the separation of safety-related 9
equipment in containment.
Containment is always a problem 10 because all your divisions have to get back together in 11 containment.
12 You can route them separately all you want to, but 13-sooner or later they have to be together in the main control 14' room and together in the containment.
And the automatic 15 suppressions tradeoff.
Automatic suppression is automatic 16 sprinklers and whether you want them, what are the downsides 17 of having them, and where we put them.
18 For the spurious actuation of separation story, 19 what I'would like to do is talk about ADS IV, just talk 20 through that.
The other systems and controls are related 21 and have a similar story.
22 In the main control room, which is here, recognize 23 that this is now two levels above the plant grade, there are 24
.two ways to make ADS IV operate.
Well, there's a number of 25 ways.
There's an automatic way, but there's two manually
()
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operated ways.
One is this normal soft control system,
()
2 where the guy sits at his CRT station, presses buttons on a 3
keyboard or has a soft control like a mouse and tells the 4
ADS IV to open.
It will tell all four divisions to do 5
whatever he said.
6 A fire in that cabinet would not cause, based upon 7
tests, the limited amount of tests that have been done and 8
just common sense, because a message is going down the wire, 9
not just a simple contact closure, that a fire in that 10 cabinet should not cause anything to happen because it has 11 to send coordinated pluses and minuses or zeros and pluses 12 down the wire to get something to happen.
13 So we've said that any fire in the soft control 14 station would not cause spurious actuations, and the staff 15 has agreed.
16 MR. POWERS:
That seems enormously logical to me, 17 because this is a message that's coded and it's more 18 difficult to do that.
But I've got no reason myself to have 19 confidence that that -- but it appears logical to me.
Are 20 there experimental investigations where people do the 21 grievous things to electronic equipment and show that indeed 22 in these systems that your code length is long enough that 23 you can't get 24 MR. WINTERS:
To my knowledge, there have been 25 some people who have done some investigations, clearly not
)
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to the limit that we would'say were definitive.
In
()
2 addition, there is not cnly the fire or the heat itself, but 3
we do know that there are some smoke effects, because smoke 4
is an ionized set of particles and somehow that attacks IC 5-circuits or some other things, integrated circuits, and I
6 cause funny things to happen.
7 Now, out here where all these messages are.long 8
coded messages that smoke problems shouldn't be a big 9
problem, shouldn't be a problem at all.
In the I&C rooms, 10 where that coding is much shorter, it's'really only contact 11 closure information.
We do something different there and I 12 will talk about that in a minute.
13 If, however, smoke gets bad enough or fire gets 14 bad enough in the main control. room that.the guys want to 15 abandon it and they turn these stations after they leave, 16 and so.they're disconnected from the fire, and a large fire 17.
shouldn't create a number of those.
18 But as far as a definitive program, no, not that I 19 know of.
I don't know if the staff knows of any.
-.0 MR. CONNELL:
This is Ed Connell, from the plant 2
21 systems branch.
The only work'right now is being done by 12 2 Sandia, looking at smoke-induced spurious actuation of 23 integrated circuits, and it's very preliminary.
It's much 24
' simpler than the stuff that Jim is discussing.
25 MR. WINTERS:
There is also no anecdotal evidence 1
i
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388
-1 that it's ever happened.
2 MR. POWERS:
It just strikes me that the military,
}
3 because of their lot of use of digital systems nowadays,
- 4 especially in tanks and ships, surely worry about this.
5 MR. WINTERS:
I was responsible for a digital 6
system on board Naval vessels recently and we said the same 7
thing I just said here.
It doesn't make sense that that 8-could possibly happen and that's -- we worried about the 9
' fire.not' propagating out of the cabinet and we worried about I
10 how the fire propagated within~the cabinet.
But as far as 11 it creating spurious intelligent signals down a wire to make 12 something happen, we just assumed it --
13-MR. WALLIS:
It may not create the message, but it 14 might cause a message to be sent, messages already intact in O
15 some form.
16 MR. WINTERS:
No.
This -- remember, now, this --
17-yes, that's the case in the next thing I'm going to talk 18 about,-but right now we're talking about the computer 19 station and when you press a key on your keyboard, do you 20 not close one contact.
You create a_ message.
And when you 21 move your mouse, you don't close a contact, you create a 22 message, and that's the_whole-thing.
23 The fire is not-smart enough to create contact 24-closures in such a way'to create a message.
25-Now, the other part, which we'll get to, is that ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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also in the main control room is the diverse actuation 2
system, which is a hard-wired system.
The hard-wired system 3'
says that if there is a switch somewhere, that when you 4-press the switch, the electricity comes from the hot wire, 5
goes to the cold wire, and whatever you wanted to happen 6
goes and happens.
7 Diverse actuation system consoles in the main l.-
8 control room, there are two.
Actually, there are a number i
9 of them, but they are in two sets.
To make ADS IV go, two 1
10 switches'have to be pushed.
Those switches are separated I
11 not only by the structure of the. cabinets, but they're
(
12 separated by feet.
J l
13 The main switch to turn off the capability to do 1
i 14 anything from the diverse actuation system is outside the 15 main control room and if there is a fire -- oh, let me I
16 continue.
The circuits that are related to those two l
17 switches, both switches have to be in their engaged position 18-for a period of time, it's in the order of seconds, and when 19 you push one of the switches, both open and close contacts, 20 change state, so that a fire in one cabinet, even though it j
may be smart enough to change state of both sets of contacts 21 l
22 on that switch, don't change the state of the two contacts on the other switch in the other cabinet.
23 24 Therefore, a fire in a cabinet will not create the 25 system signal to open ADS IV or any other of the system j
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signals that we're talking about.
O
.i j
2 The analysis here says that this is a continuously 3
manned station, there have been 21 fires in main control 4
rooms in nuclear power plants in the United States, all of 5
which have been point out by the main control room operators 6
before they propagated.
7 We believe the guy is either going to put that 8
fire out in the first cabinet or he's going to turn off the 9
. diverse actuation system before it can get to the point 10 where it's not only big enough, but smart enough to close 11 all the contacts in the right order and the right timing 12 sequence to make any of these system actuations go from 13 diverse actuation.
14 So that's a discreet circuit analysis we went 15 through and timing, because timing is involved.
For 16 example,.if the second cabinet doesn't get started burning j
17 for two minutes after the first cabinet said that it should, 1 18 it still won't go because-it missed the timing window of i
19 coincidence.
{
20 MR. POWERS:
So you don't have this problem of a 21 fire getting started and propagating and eventually causing 22 a failure.
23 MR. WINTERS:
Right. It has to be in a window.
24 Right-Now, cables coming out of main control room.
If we 25 went through all this in the cabinets, but then put the i
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cables in the same tray, that would have defeated the whole
/~(T) 2 purpose.
Well, those cables come out of containment -- or 3
not containment -- main control room in two separate 4
directions and then go off to where they're going off to.
5 MR. POWERS:
I have to ask.
What are the fire 6
barrier penetration seals?
17 MR. WINTERS:
They are not specified explicitly in 8
the SSAR.
The approved seals at the time of construction 9
will be used.
10 MR. POWERS:
So that's just something that you 11 don't specify.
12 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
l 13 MR. POWERS:
You just mentioned non-combustible 14 seals, I think.
15 MR. WINTERS:
We say non-combustible seals.
We l-l 16 don't say what kind of non-combustible seals.
17 MR. POWERS:
Why did you say non-combustible 18 seals?
Just to comply with the regulation?
19 MR. WINTERS:
Right, and because it makes sense.
20 They do exist.
21 MR. POWERS:
They exist, but they're not used in 22 any plants that I know of.
23 MR. WINTERS:
This is a new one.
We're allowed to 24 use them here.
25 Now, so the signal information is coming out of
(
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1 the main control room and it's going to four divisions..
It O) 2 separates and heads off to the four divisions and the next
(
3 deck below this, which is this deck, here are the four 4
divisions, A,
B, C,
and D.
i 5
These rooms are the penetration rooms and also 6
have the logic in them.
The next room below has the DC 7
switch gear in them.
There is -- you can postulate that if 8
Division A told ADS to open, that it could, by itself, open 9
a valve, and you don't want that to happen, especially if, 10 at the time this happened, one of the other divisions was 11 racked out for surveillance or something.
12 Now, a fire that started in the main control room 13 isn't allowed to get down here because it's in a separate 14 fire area, but let's start the fire in this room.
The logic O(_,/
15 in this room that creates the valves to open, there are two i
16 cabinets.
One is on one side of the room and one is on the 17 other side of the room.
They're all A.
They need to be in 18 the same room, but if you had a fire that got them both, you 19 could potentially, with a smart hot short, tell the ADS 20 valve to open.
21 Our story here is a time line story and it is 22 repeated in the room below, which is the DC switch gear 23 room.
If a fire starts in this room, the operator will find 24 out.
There are heat-sensing instrumentation and 25 smoke-sensing instrumentation that would tell him, hey, I've
()
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got a fire in the penetration room, division A penetration 2
room.
3 He is instructed at that point to send somebody to 4
the room below, which, by the way, is in the same fire area, 5
but the fire has not affected that yet, and turn off the 6
room.
7 MR. POWERS:
That's really interesting.
You've 8
got a fire that you have successfully detected and now l
9 you're going to have somebody enter the same fire area.
,10 MR. WINTERS:
But in the room below.
11 MR. POWERS:
In the room below.
l l
~12 MR. WINTERS:
To deenergize the whole division.
l 13 MR. POWERS:
So you're requiring -- that places a 14' certain requirement on your ability to detect.
15 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
The thing here is that from a 16 probability point of view, we believe that the fire is not 17 smart enough to cause the spurious closure, the hot short 18 happening in both places to cause the thing to go.
19 But the rules are you assume that it does anyway, 20 that somehow it is smart enough.
Given that, you've got to 21:
go turn off the division.
22 MR. POWERS:
I'm still stuck on this detection.
23 Somehow you had to decide that my ability to detect is such 24 that I can go do this.
I have very high probability of 25-being able to do that.
How did you do that?
How did you ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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1 say this detector, I don't know what detector it is, but 2
this detector will work sufficiently early that I can send 3
somebody down to do something.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Well, sufficiently early is in the 5
same order of magnitude early that we have relied upon that 6
same instrumentation to close smoke dampers, to isolate this 7
fire area from other fire areas on the instigation of a 8
fire, detection of a fire.
That sort of instrumentation is-9 used throughout the world.
It's highly proven stuff.
We're 10 not doing anything special.
11 We fire that response to fire for this particular I
12 scenario is the same as response to fire for scenarics 13 before we came up with this one, which is as soon as you 14 discover a fire, you've got to isolate that area, because
{
j 15 you don't want the heat, you don't want the smoke, you don't 16 want the bad gases to propagate to another fire area.
17 So our conclusion was, well, if we can rely on it 18
-for that more probable, equally important purpose, we can 19.
rely on it for this less probable equally important purpose.
20 MR. POWERS:
So your assessment of the time to 21 detection is basically an engineering judgment assessment.
l 22 MR. WINTERS:
In that we have multiple heat i-l 23 sensors within the room and HVAC has a smoke sensor, the j
j 24 time to detection is_short.
Steve Boyer from Bechtel is 25.
going to say something.
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MR. BOYER:
My name is Steve Boyer.
I'm with (O
/
_j 2
Bechtel in San Francisco.
Maybe we should point out here, 3
too, that there is a one-hour fire barrier between those two 4
rooms, also, which will delay propagation.
5 MR. WINTERS:
To the adjacent room.
6 MR. BOYER:
And also dampers.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Do these heat detectors have a 8
temperature set point or are they a combination one, where 9
it's temperature set point or rate of rise?
a 10 MR. BOYER:
Actually, I think, in this area, we're 11 takling about smoke detectors rather than heat detectors.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Where you do use heat detectors, 13 which type are used?
14 MR. BOYER:
We haven't specified the specific type 15 of detector yet.
16 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
I'm going to continue, The 17 story is the same for the deck below.
The reason I'm going 18 to stay on this picture is because now we bring that signal 19 through the penetrations into containment.
There is the j
20 division C penetration room here.
On the next level, there 21 is a B penetration room, a D penetration room and an A 22 penetration room.
23 So we bring them into containment.
Then they are 24 separated physically by barriers, each division from 25 another.
Within containment -- I always get these confused.
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B and D runs up the wall, through a floor, concrete floor,
(
2 into the next area above.
A and C runs into -- is in here.
3 So now inside containment we have the four divisions l
4 separated from each other until they have to get back 5
together at the ADS IV stages.
6 Not only that, the ADS IV actuation cables are 7
routed with low voltage instrumentation cables, not with l
8 high voltage stuff.
There is nothing in the -- there is not 9
enough power in any of the wires in the tray that if the 10 tray burned up, it would light off Squib valve.
11 However, at the end, just to make sure that l
12 nothing drops on it or there is not a hot wire flying around 13 containment, we keep that wire in a conduit after it drops
[
14 out of the tray, all the way up to the valve.
15 So that even though there are a number of 16 divisions coming to a valve, they are separated-up to the 17 valve, at least by conduit.
18 The ADS IV valves happen to be on these walls.
19 That's where the divisions come together like this from the 20 side, from the elevation and from above, but when they drop 21 in, they're in conduit.
22 I've noticed that John is looking at the clock, so 23 I'm going to speed up a little bit here.
24 This area, which we call 300B, is our pinch point 25 in the design for fire separation.
All four divisions, plus
()
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non-1E cable, come into this area.
The PRHR valves, both
/C)_
2 PRHR valves open to get PRHR lit off, they are up against 3
this wall in this area.
And this area, therefore, is of 4
concern.
5 The separation of this area from this area, which 6
has --- now, right below here is one of the CMT tanks.
The 7
other CMT is over here.
So we have to worry about 8
instrumentation and information going to the CMTs and their 9
valve.
10 This area is only separated from this area by a 11 line on the floor.
There is no physical separation.
It's 12 only space.
And we did have some concern about the 13 capability of a fire starting somewhere in this area, not l
14 affecting all four divisions.
/~~
(_,)
15 What we have done is physically enclosed B and D 16 as they come up out of this area and provide sprinklera, 17 suppression -- I'm not going to quite say automatic -- it's 18 semi-automatic suppression.
19 MR. POWERS:
What is semi-automatic?
20 MR. WINTERS:
I'll tell you that in a minute.
All 21 of the safety divisions are in closed trays.
The non-1E 22 cables are in open trays.
We have the deluge valve type 23 suppression.
Steve may be able to better describe this, but 24 it senses heat, wants to open a valve, actually opens a 25 valve, but at the same time, because this is a dry pipe --
A
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remember I told you that there --
()
2 MR. WALLIS:
It senses temperature?
3 MR. WINTERS:
Temperature.
4 MR.'WALLIS:
You said heat.
5 MR. WINTERS:
It senses temperature.
Excuse me.
6 It has to tell somebody outside to let the water in and then 7
somebody has '.o go open that containment isolation valve to 8
let the water in, e.nd then the seismic standpipe system will 9
let the water come in.
10 The cables are separated by feet.
Not tens of 11 feet, but by feet.
Plus the physical barriers of the trays 12 being closed.
We and the staff agreed that there is 13 sufficient time to get the sprinkler going on the non-1E 14 tray, if it's burning, before it can affect the other trays.
15 The other problem we had were the two valves here 16 were close together,-physically close together.
They were 17 within -- depending whether you're going center line to 18 center line, but between four to eight feet close together, 19 and they are motor-operated valves or they have operators 20 that are electrically supplied.
21 One could burn.
You postulate or you assume that 22 it burns up the one next to it.
Now you don't have either 23 of them.
24 MR. WALLIS:
Why do you make them out of something 25 that will burn at.all?
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1 MR. WINTERS:
They have air diaphragms in them.
I
})
2.
said motor, but they are operated valves.
They have 3
diaphragms in them and they have electrical wires coming to 4
them.
5 MR. WALLIS:
Which are made of something -- a 6
burnable insulation.
7 MR. WINTERS:
It doesn't propagate the fire, but 8
if you get it ne*. enough, it burns.
There's no -- if you 9
get steel hot enough it will burn.
There's no 10 non-combustibles.
It's just the degree of what you assume.
11 MR. WALLIS:
Unless you have a nitrogen atmosphere 12 or something.
i 13 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
Which in BWRs they 14 do.
In our case, we have air.
In our case, we don't -- we 15 try not to use any combustible materials.
There are rules 16 against using combustible materials.
But then we assume 17 that it burns up anyway.
Not only that, but it burns in 18 such a fashion that it burns the guy next to him.
l 19 So to prevent that burning the guy next to him, we i
i 20 have installed or defined a -- now I can't remember the l
21 name, but it's a thermal -- it's a fire barrier shield.
22 MR. WALLIS:
You an assume that burns, too, since 23 you assume everything burns.
24 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
It's got steel in it, 25 if we get it hot enough.
But it takes a while and,
()
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remember, all we have to do is get the air off of this valve 7,)
2~
to let it open.
3 MR. POWERS:
When you say it takes a while, give 4
me --
5 MR. WINTERS:
This is a three-hour.
It's a thin 6
sheet three-hour barrier.
7 MR. POWERS:
And how do you know it's a three-hour 8
barrier?
9 MR. WINTERS:
It's been tested.
Now, it's been l
10 tested by the definition of the tests in the NFPA standards, 11 which they put a heat source on one side and they measure 12 the temperature on the other side and if it passes the test, 13 they declare it a three-hour barrier.
Yes, Steve.
14 MR. BOYER:
I hate to do this, but I'm going to 15 have to correct you on that.
I assume you're referring to 16 the-Durasteel product.
j.
17 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
18 MR. BOYER:
And there are configurations that have 19 been tested, but the single sheet would not be a three hour 20 barrier.
21 MR. WINTERS:
But it's a multi -- it's an hour or 22 more barrier, right?
23 MR. BOYER:
I don't know what they call it.
The 24
'use'it on oil rigs and it's very effective, but I don't know 25 what the rating is.
l 1
()
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MR. WINTERS:
This Durasteel sheet is an expanded
(~%
( )
2' metal sheet with concrete type material in between.
So it 3
surely doesn't want to burn.
4 MR. CARROLL:
You get it hot enough and you're 5
make concrete shrapnel damage, as well.
6 MR. WINTERS:
It's used widely in Canada and 7
Europe and has been tested against the' rules for the rating B
that it has, if it's an hour, it's an hour.
9 MR. POWERS:
It's not a three-hour barrier.
It 10 might be an hour barrier.
How much time do you actually 11 need?
[
12 MR. WINTERS:
From detection, about 30 seconds.
L
- L3 MR. POWERS:
From?
l 14 MR. WINTERS:
From detection of the fire in the 15 first valve, the operator is told to immediately open the 16 second valve so that he doesn't have to worry about opening 17 it at some later time.
18 MR. POWERS:
So we come back to the problem of
{
19 time to detection.
20 MR. WINTFRS:
Right.
Now this one, we actually 21 have fire sensors over each valve.
It's not an area sensor.
22 We're designing in sensors for those valves specif*cally.
23 That was the pinch point of our design.
24 MR. POFERS:
And the sensors are temperature 25 sensors.
i
()
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MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
()
3 MR. POWERS:
And we're assured that our flow, our 3-
' gas flow is such that the hot gases go up.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
There is no fan in this area 5
blowing it sideways or anything else.
6 Now doesn't mean it's totally quiescent, but it's 7 -
a room like this.
The air handling units for containment 8
are up quite a was on the ring and they are tens of feet 9
above this.
10 Now, suppression, we talked about suppression in 11 containment, where we have a number of tradeoffs.
Out of 12 containment we have a number of tradeoffs as well.
13 There are no combustibles on the clean aux side l
14' except the electrical equipment itself, which is all'I&C i
15 type equipment.
There is no heavy motors or pumps or 16 anything over here.
What is over here is all the cabinetry, i
17 which is built to the 1E standards and the fire protection 18 standards of IE, which limits the type of insulation you're j
19 allowed to use, but doesn't preclude the fact that something i
l 20 might burn up.
21 MR. CARROLL:
How do I put out a fire in a 22 cabinet?
23 MR. WINTERS:
In this plant, if you don't use a 24 char hand-held fire extinguisher, you run up with a hose with 25 a mist nozzle on it and you spray it with the mist.
You ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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spray it with a mist.
That's an oxymoron.
You mist it.
2 MR. CARROLL:
Do you put in ports in the back side b-3 of a cabinet so you can get dry chemical or CO2 or whatever?
4 MR. WINTERS:
We haven't, no.
These are just 5
standard cabinets with standard backs on them.
6 On the dirty aux side, what we call the dirty aux, 7
if you remember our discussion from yesterday, we wanted to 8-minimize the introduction of water in here because once the 9
water hits -- any water hits this side, you assume it's 10 contaminated, whether it is or it isn't.
You just assume it 11 is, so we wanted to minimize that.
12 However, for this, making sure that we have normal i
13 systems capable of getting us to cold shutdown most of the 14 time requirement that we talked at the very beginning, we I
15 have introduced automatic suppression in two areas in the 16 dirty aux and one area on the clean aux.
l 17 The one area on the clean aux is this non-1E j
18 penetration room, where there are lots of things that could 19 get hot.
And by putting a fire out quickly here with using 1
20 automatic suppression, it allows you to maintain the 4
21 capability of having a charging pump which is directly i
l 22-below.
l 23 Now, the space directly is in dirty aux, but it's 24 also suppressed, because having one charging pump means that 25 you don't have to worry about letting down your over-fill ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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capability.
You an have aux spray with a charging pump.
/~.
(,)
2 That keeps you cooler.
I mean, that maintains your pressure 3
better so you don't have to open the ADS I to let out 4
5 So we have automatic suppression in this room, the 6
room below it, which is the charging pump room, and the 7
rooms above this are the RNs pump rooms.
They are separated 8
because RNS takes us to cold shutdown and suppressed.
The 9
cables from the RNS pumps, even though they're 10 non-safety-related, are separated coming out of there.
11 So that you have -- if you postulate a fire in one 12 of the areas that has an RNS pump, you still have the other 13 one to get you to cold shutdown.
14 This just happens to show -- what does this show.
15 This is the CVS room, which is down below.
That's 16 suppressed.
That's on the dirty aux side, so we have to l
17 worry about drainage of that water into our contaminated 18 water cleanup system.
i j
19 MR. WALLIS:
Why do you call these tradeoffs?
j i
20 MR. WINTERS:
Thr
- adeoff is whether you need to I
21 suppress the fire automatically or not and the consequences i
22 of doing so.
Now, if you put it out manually, you're going i
23 to have water in here, too, because the guy is going to run 24 in here wich a fire hose.
The automatic suppression, 25 however, tends to give you more water and could give you
()
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Having a pressurized --
D(g 2
MR. CONNELL:
Excuse me.
That's not correct.
3 This is Ed Connell, staff, again.
Industry experience has 4
demonstrated that manual suppression ends up discharging a 5
lot more water into the affected fire area than automatic 6
suppression, 98-something percent of the fires are 7
controlled with one or two heads, and that's in the order of 8
15 to 30 gallons a minute, as opposed to 100 gallons a 9
minute for each hose-station.
10 MR. WINTERS:
Thank you, Ed.
The other tradeoff 11 is you don't want to -- we don't want pressurized pipe in 12 here that could break, and then -- because you have to 13 assume that that pipe does break.
Then you have to be able 14 to handle the results.
15 MR. WALLIS:
It's not so much a tradeoff as it's a 16 rational design choice in order to meet certain design 17 criteria.
18 MR. WINTERS:
That's exactly right.
i 19
'MR. WALLIS:
Not that you're giving up something i
20 in order to -- you have a certain amount of money, so you 21 can only afford something and you have to trade things off.
22 It's not that kind of a tradeoff at all.
j 23 MR. WINTERS:
No.
It's a tradeoff between l
24 criteria.
On one side of the spectrum, you would put 25 sprinklers everywhere, with its attendant piping and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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potential for pipe breaks and uncontrolled water releases
()
2 and all of that jazz.
On the other hand, you have no 3
suppression, which means you have to assume everything burns 4
up and so you have to trade off where you're going to put 5
suppression and where you don't.
6 MR. CARROLL:
To the extent you do have automatic 7
sprinklers, is that piping system seismic design?
8 MR. WINTERS:
No.
This is fed -- this room and 9.
these two rooms, which are really two decks up, are fed from 10 that extension header that runs through the annex building, 11 through here.
By the way, the truck bay here is also 12 sprinkled because there is a high potential for fire because 13 of the truck in there.
And then into the rad waste building 14 and back out to the yard.
km/
15 The valve for these rooms is outside the aux 16 bui] ding, so that the pipe is dry inside the aux building.
t 17 But that header is a non-ceismic header.
18 MR. CARROLL:
You do know what happened to the 19 sprinkler headers in the United terminal at San Francisco, 20 don't you?
They flooded the place.
21 MR. HUTCHINGS:
The room above comes off the 22 seismic system.
23 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
On the clean aux side.
24.
Right.
But that's limited to the 18,000 gallons.
And this 25 one is a dry pipe.
()
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MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
l
\\
_ )
2 Where we put floor drains in to get rid of i
3 suppression water, do these have loop seals in them?
4 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
5 MR. CARROLL:
They do.
6 MR. WINTERS:
At area boundaries.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
That's what I'm worrying 8
about.
9 MR. WINTERS:
Yec.
At area boundaries, they do.
i 10 MR, CARROLL:
And then you know my next question.
11 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
How do you know that they're 1
12 full?
The same way everybody else does -- by opening them.
13 We don't have a good answer for that.
14 MR. WALLIS:
So sprinklers can put out a truck on (s-)
15 fire involving its fuel tank?
16 MR. WINTERS:
Sprinklers are intended to slow the 17 spread of that fire.
I don't think it will put it out.
18 Will it put it out, Ed?
l l
19 MR. COLLINS:
Well., of course, you tell me the 20 fire and I'll tell you whether the sprinkler system puts it i
21 out or not.
If it's am propane tanker, of course, it won't.
I 21 The intent is that the sprinkler system will control the 23 fire, prevent propagation and allow the brigade to complete 1
24 extinguishment.
That's the intent for all sprinkler i
4 25 systems, including the ones in this building.
(
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MR. WINTERS:
Even the truck, it depends on r
(
2 whether the tire is on fire or the diesel fuel tank is on 3
fire.
4 MR. WALLIS:
I think if it was a fuel spill, I 5
think you would have a problem with it.
6 MR. CARROLL:
That kind of bothers me, also, and 7
the diesel generator room is relying on water for fire 8
suppression.
I guess I have grown up believing you have to 9
put CO2 in rooms like it.
10 MR. CONNELL:
No.
Water is much better than CO2.
11 Much, much better.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Tell me why.
13 MR. CONNELL:
Because the CO2 extinguishes solely 14 by suppression.
It doesn't cool the fuel at all, whereas
,G
\\s-)
15 water, the heat capacity of water is many, many times that 16 of gaseous CO2.
So you could discharge your CO2, which is 17 going to be leaking out of the room, because the room is not l
18 type.
You have a limited supply of CO2.
You just have 19 whatever is hooked up to the tank, where they have -- they 20 have 600,000 gallons of water available.
21 So CO2 is inappropriate.
Also, CO2 is a personnel j
22 hazard.
You won't be able to have people enter the room.
23 So water is the best, cheapest, most effective suppression 24 agent on the plant.
25 MR. CARROLL:
And also is going to carry burning 78 t
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diesel fuel out --
)
2 MR. CONNELL:
No.
The room is tight, so that's 3
not going to happen.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Not going to happen.
Good luck.
5 Diked.
6 MR. CONNELL:
The room is diked.to prevent 7
MR. WINTERS:
The diesel room.
He's talking about 8
the station diesels.
The truck bay isn't diked because he's 9
got to drive the truck in there, but it's also open to the 10 outside.
11 MR. CARROLL:
You could have a ramp-up.
12 MR. WINTERS:
Other questions?
We're going to let 13 you put up your barriers here in a minute.
14 MR. POWERS:
You have focused all your discussions
\\ms/
15 on fires in this protected area.
l' I
16 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
l l
17 MR. POWERS:
Are you going to discuss with us l
18' which gear rooms and turbine buildings?
19 MR WINTERS:
If you would like.
I 20 MR. CARROLL:
Would we like?
21 MR. SEALE:
Seeing as how those are the places 22 that seem to be most popular for these barbecues, I'd say 23 we'd probably want to.
24 MR. WINTERS:
This isn't a very satisfying 25 picture, I know.
Let me get the one -- too high.
This is
()
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the main operating deck level of the turbine hall.
The 2
turbine hall is basically all one fire area because there is 3
' free exchange of gas.
We don't have HVAC systems and walls 4
to separate them.
5 Except for these fire areas on this level, which 6
are the motor driven pump and the diesel pump for fire, fire 7
pump room, and this is the aux boiler room, so it has diesel
-8 in it.
9 These rooms, under the diesel storage, are diked 10 to the capacity of the-tanks and sprinkled.
There is 11 suppression here.
12 MR. CARROLL:
That doesn't do it, though.
If I 13 lose the whole content of the tanks, I'm up to the dike and 14 now I put water in and I have floating burning oil.
Is that 15 right?
l t
16 MR. WINTERS:
If you get the leak and the fire at l
l 17 the same time and the fire didn't start until all the oil 18 leaked, that could be, yes.
But the --
I 19 MR. CARROLL:
Isn't that the most likely scenario?
i 20 MR. WINTERS:
I'm not sure I understand what is j
21 likely here.
The --
22 MR. CARROLL:
If I'm going to have -- I'll go back 23 to 1950 terminology -- the maximum credible fire in the 24 diesel whoever it is room, I guess it would have to be empty 25 in the tank and catching oil on fire.
()
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MR. WALLIS:
It's leak before fire.
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
Leak before fire.
Well, if we carry 3
this on, you say what happens then.
Well, then the oil will 4
overflow, it's on the bottom, it goes down the drain first.
5
.The drain goes to a closed drain sump and the fire doesn't 6
go with it.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
8 MR. WINTERS:
It doesn't run out onto the floor 9
here.
10 MR. CARROLL:
Because the drain is --
11 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
12 MR. CARROLL:
-- helping out.
Okay.
13 MR. WINTERS:
Now, there are areas -- this doesn't 14 show our suppression.
This just shows a fire.
We have a
. \\s f 15 number of areas on this level that are suppressed because l
16 they have pumps that support normal shutdown operations.
17 Service water pumps, component cooling water pumps, turbine 18 cooling water pumps, startup feedwater pumps, and main 19 feedwater pumps, all are suppressed.
t 20 So that if one starts to burn, and these are wet 21 pipe suppressions, so if they start to burn, the water 22 automatically starts coming down on them and hopefully it 23 doesn't light the next one.
24 However, for fire analysis, we assume the whole 25 turbine hall, except for these areas, because they're
(')
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separate fire areas, this whole fire area is lost and we can
()
2 still safely shut down the plant if the turbine hall falls 3
down.
4 MR. POWERS:
What is the heat flux on the walls in 5
that scenario?
6 MR. WINTERS:
Which walls?
7 MR. POWERS:
The most vulnerable ones.
8 MR. WINTERS:
The most vulnerable walls are the 9'
outside walls.
They'll fall off and burn off.
They're just 10 sheet metal walls.
11 MR. POWERS:
From the other side.
)
12 MR. WINTERS:
Outside.
Air.
13 MR. CARROLL:
The great outdoors.
14 MR. WINTERS:
This wall is the annex building O
15 structural wall.
16 MR. POWERS:
It's made out of concrete?
17 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
Okay.
At this level, this is 18 another level up.
I'm trying to remember where -- at this 19 level, we have some lube oil and we have some turbine j
20 support systems that are flammable.
So they are in their 21 own fire areas.
22 MR. CARROLL:
This is above the turbine deck?
l 23 MR. WINTERS:
This is the main turbine -- well, l
24 above.
This is the second level, yes.
25 MR.' CARROLL:
Where is the center line of the
()
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turbine, another level above this?
()
2 MR. WINTERS:
It is, isn't it?
Yes.
It's up 3
another level.
This is a condenser bay.
4 MR. CARROLL:
The first drawing you show --
5 MR. WINTERS:
The ground.
6 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
7 MR. WINTERS:
And on the ground sits the big 8
pumps.
The turbine is up two decks from there.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
Switch gear rooms, and I'm 10 not sure I have a good picture, surely not one we can read.
'11 But the switch gear rooms are separate and they are -- we 12 suppress the switch gear rooms, right?
Do you remember?
I 13 thought so.
Yes.
14-Do you have ports in the back of switch gear 15 cabinets to get fire extinguishers in?
16 MR. WINTERS:
I don't know.
We specified just 17 normal cabinets.
Whether they have them or not I don't 18 know.
19 MR. CARROLL:
Good idea.
I learned once from 20 experience.
21 MR. CONNELL:
Not really.
22 MR. CARROLL:
Really?
23 MR. CONNELL:
To be effective to use the portable 24 extinguisher, you have to apply the agent to the base of the 25 flames and you're really not going to be able to predict
'(
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where that fire is going to be.
So punching a small hole to
'O (j
2 stick a nozzle of an extinguisher in there might sound good, 3
but it won't be very effective.
4 You have to open up the cabinet and apply the 5
agent to the base of the flames.
6 MR. CARROLL.:
No, because if you can -- if you 7
open up the cabinet, you bring oxygen in and that's --
8 MR. CONNELL:
These cabinets have plenty of air 9
that flow through them already and the idea is to extinguish 4
10 the fire and you're not going to be able to do that by 11 shooting inside of a cabinet.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Well, I have had a much different 13 experience.
I l -
14 MR. CONNELL:
Well, I mean, you may probably have
!r l\\
15 had the wrong agent for the fire.that you were doing.
But I 16-was in the fire service for ten years and I've used all 17 sorts of different extinguishing agents and the way we train 18 people is to apply the agent to the base of the flames.
19 MR. WINTERS:
Open the cabinet.
l
- 20 MR. CARROLL:
That's fine.
But sometimes -- well, l
t.
l 21 some of these fires, when you get enough hot metal in there, l
l 22 just keep reigniting on you.
And after you've --
23 MR. CONNELL:
In that case, a portable 24 extinguisher is the inappropriate means of extinguishment.
25 Then you need a hose line.
We have lots of experiences in Oyd ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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the industry where they've basically discharged very
()
2 extinguisher they've had in the plant before they finally 3
got around to using the hose line, which if they had done it 4
initially, they would have been a lot -- the fire would have 5-been extinguished a lot sooner and they would have had a lot 6
less collateral damage.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Except that it takes some time to 8
assure yourself that you've deenergized switch gear before
'9 you want to go spraying water-on it.
10 MR. CONNELL:
Well, if you are using fog nozzles, 11.
provided you have a 30-degree pattern and you maintain at 12 least ten feet away, you won't have any current flow back to 13 the nozzle.
14 MR. CARROLL:
I just feel better making sure that
(.e 15 they're denergized before I do that.
~
16 MR. CONNELL:
Sure, that's preferred, but there 17 are ways around that.
18 MR. WINTERS:
Are there other questions?
We 19 believe, at these point, that we have adequate support 20 design certification.
We also believe that there are 21 questions of insurance that may come up, but those are 22 outside the regulations and we will have to address those, l
23 if necessary, at the time.
24 MR. UHRIG:
My experience has been that the i
25 insurance companies love to have nozzles all over the place.
f3
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1 They want fire suppression everywhere.
Have you run into
!n/
2 this?
3 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
But, again, we have alternate 4
considerations of minimizing water in certain areas for 5
other reasons, non-fire related.
6 In the place of the annex building, the turbine 7
hall, we have suppression more than what we tried to show 8
here in the annex building.
9 MR. SEALE:
Are you prepared to say that your fire 10 protection program is in compliance with Appendix R, without 11 exceptions?
12 MR. WINTERS:
No.
First of all, we can't comply 13 on a passive way to get the cold shutdown.
So we have a 14 definition exception there to begin with.
15 MR. SEALE:
All right.
16 MR. WINTERS:
After you step over that line, now 17 you've got to interpret alternate or non-alternate systems.
18 We believe that we are in full compliance relative to our 19 safety systems.
We have a definition problem of the normal 20 systems, whether they're even covered by c Appendix R or 21 not.
However, we have done sufficient suppression to 22 satisfy the staff on an alternate interpretation of Appendix l
23 R.
l l
24 There are -- and now that I'm standing here and 25 going brain dead, I can't remember.
There are three or four s
I
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1 1
specific exceptions, right, Ed, that we have?
4 2
MR. CONNELL:
The deviations?
3 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
And since I haven't seen the 4.
FSER, I'm not sure how NRC wrote each of those up-.
5 MR. BARTON:
Wrote them up as specific deviations.
6 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
?
MR. CONNELL:
There are 17 deviations right now 8
with the AP600.
I'm talking about deviations from the 9
guidance in the standard review plan.
10 Do you want to go through them all?
{
11 MR. SEALE:
No.
I guess I have them right here.
12 MR. BARTON:
Not at this time.
13
'4R. CONNELL:
Okay.
14 R. POWERS:
Boy, I like the word variance a lot
'15 better than deviations.
16 MR. BARTON:
Any other questions for Jim?
Does
{
17 the staff have any comments on this chapter?
18 MR. LYONS:
Just one more comment.
This is Jim 19 Lyons from the plant systems branch, 20 We've written the SER that you've got there that 21 shows that they meet the regulations and that we found them 22 to be acceptable.
)
23 However, there has been a differing professional 24 view issued regarding the location of the fire pumps in the 25 turbine building and the appropriate version of the NFPA (G
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code that was used during the review.
()
2' That's going _through the DPV process.
A panel has 3
met, they've made recommendations to the office director.
4 The office director has provided those recommendations to us 5
and we're determining what our next course of action is and 6
we're going to be doing that shortly.
7 Just so that you know that there is still some 8
more action that's going on.
9 MR. BARTON:
Thank you.
10 MR. POWERS:
Thank you.
11 MR. CARROLL:
It occurred to me that it might not 12 be a bad idea if those rooms were separated instead of being 13 one next to the other, but I don't know that that would make 14 the DPO go away.
15 MR. LYONS:
That's certainly one of the options.
16 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
i 17 MR. BARTON:
Thank you, Jim.
18 MR. WINTERS:
Thank you very much.
l 19 MR. BARTON:
Are you doing security, also, or are 20 you going to take a break?
21 MR. WINTERS:
No.
You're going to throw me out 22 for this.
23 MR. WALLIS:
Can I ask a question here about this?
24 MR. BARTON:
Sure.
25 MR. WALLIS:
Which might involve Jim.
In
/w f
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listening to your presentation, I get the impression that-i
)
2 there is so much conservatism here that this is way over 3
design from the point of view of fire.
Is that your 4
impression or are you -- you've minimized all kinds of 5
things, but not the costs, certainly, and is that true?
6-MR. WINTERS:
No.
I wouldn't -- I think this is a 7
reasonable design.
I think that we could put more fire 8
protection into this plant, if we wanted to, lots more.
9 MR. WALLIS:
You have lots of conservative 10 assumptions.
j L
11 MR. WINTERS:
We have a lot of conservative 12 assumptions.
I think that this is the best plant that I l
have seen relative to the safety systems because of the i
13
\\
I l
14 separation that we've put in, as well as the thought of what l ((D) 15 happens when a fire occurs in safety systems.
16 We are not as good as some plants on protection of i
17 the investment that our customers will have.
We've got a 18 lot of places that utilities would like more fire 19 suppression for investment protection, not for safety.
20 MR. WALLIS:
And the burden is relatively light 21 anyway in terms of costs and giving up something that you'd 22 rather have.
23 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
Relatively, I would agree.
24 MR. SEALE:
Is.there any reason that if a client 25 came in and wanted to install additional investment ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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- 1 protection kinds of features, that that would in any way
()
2 mitigate the effectiveness of the design as it stands now?
3 MR. WINTERS:
It would have to be reviewed for 4
additions en the nuclear island.
Off the nuclear island, I 5
think that a 50.59 review would say go right ahead, have a 6
good time, 7
MR. SEALE:
Availability of water and effects of 8
additional flooding and that kind of thing.
9 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
We'd have to go --
10 MR. McINTYRE:
That would be up to them and the 11 staff.
12 MR. SEALE:
Sure.
13 MR. WINTERS:
Yes.
14 MR. POWERS:
I guess I would agree with the
\\m /
15 speaker that I think separation and some of the thought 16 that's been going into layout looks very good.
The problem l
17 that we run into with fire all the time is assumptions that l
l 18 seem very conservative often are born experience.
I will 19 admit that they are in the legitimate domain.of the l
20 infalliable thermal hydrolysis.
They just haven't focused 21 their attention as carefully on that as perhaps other areas.
22 And were they to do so, undoubtedly, we would find 23 some relief here.
But until that time comes, we will -- we i
24 have to make these conservative assumptions.
j
-25 And I thought the speaker's presentation was
()
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particularly authoritative.
()
2 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
Good job.
i l
3 MR. WINTERS:
Thank you.
4 MR. BARTON:
Thanks,'again.
5 MR. WINTERS:
I needed the help from my NRC
]
6 brother on some details here, though.
7 MR. POWERS:
We are familiar with Mr. Connell and t
8 the fact that he is truthfully an authority here, too.
9.
MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
10 MR. BARTON:
The next session is a closed session.
Other than the Westinghouse and the subcommittee membyrs, 11 I
12 will ask others to please leave the room.
13
[Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m.,
the meeting was resumed 14 in closed session.]
15 16 17 18 19 1
20 21 22 23' 24 25 i
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AFTERNOON SESSION
)
2 OPEN S E S S-I O N 3
(1:38 p.m.]
4 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Back in session.
5 Brian, are you ready to address some of those 6
questions that have come up in the last day or.so?
7 MR. McINTYRE:
Yes.
We have the Dudley list.
Jim 8
wants to draw a picture, so he's going to take a shot at it 9
here.
10 MR. WINTERS:
What we'll do is just go down 11 Dudley's list, and the first answer is boring of turbine 12 rotors, which Brian has the answer to.
I 13 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Why don't you just read the-14 question?
15 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
The first one is -- these are 16 just topics called unanswered questions.
The first one is 17 boring of turbine rotors.
18 DR. CARROLL:
Turbine and generator.
19 MR. McINTYRE:
The answer is we bore the 20 high-pressure turbine, because --
21 DR. CARROLL:
Low-pressure.
22 MR. McINTYRE:
No.
We don't bore the 23 high-pressure, right?
l 24 DR. CARROLL:
Yes.
25 MR. McINTYRE:
We don't bore the high-pressure l
_()
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because we have learned -- not we, Westinghouse, we,
(
2 collectively, the industry -- have learned a lot more about 3
how to deal with steel and the way to do electronic or 4
electric induction heating, and we think that we can 5
successfully do that so you don't drive the inclusion, the 6
slag inclusions and things like that to the center to the 7-extent that you did in the past.
8 We bore the low-pressure because that sucker is so 9
big that it's my understanding -- it's the only thing you 10 can do with that.
You still have to bore that one.
11 DR. POWERS:
Puts too much strain on the bearings 12 if you don't.
13 MR. McINTYRE:
That's a big thing to try to go 14 through this type of a process.
We do one and we don't do
\\m, 15 the other.
i 16 DR. CARROLL:
How about the generator?
17 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
That's a big thing, too.
18 MR. McINTYRE:
I don't know.
I expect that that 19 is bored.
20 DR. CARROLL:
No.
21 MR. McINTYRE:
It's not.
22 DR. CARROLL:
You're silent on it in Chapter 10.
23 MR. McINTYRE:
We only talked about the turbine.
24 We didn't get a generator question.
25 DR. CARROLL:
Yes, you did, from me.
l
()
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MR. McINTYRE:
I only wrote turbine.
That's what 2
Noel. wrote, too.
3 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
4 DR. CARROLL:
You guys got to pay attention.
5 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
The next one is capacity of 6
start-up feedwater pumps.
Our start-up feedwater pumps are 7
sized at about 3 percent full power.
8 Now, why is that?
That sounds awfully low, Jim.
9 What's your problem here?
10 The reason for that is because we cross-connect 11 the main feed pumps to the start-up feedwater header for 12 low-power operations, and we lose control on the main feed 13 reg valve below about 15 percent, so we switch over to the 14 start-up feed reg valve and drive that with the main feed 15 pumps until you get down to 3 percent.
16 Three percent is clearly enough to remove decay 17 heat if you're removing decay heat with steam generators, 18 but for start-up and shut-down operations, we switch to the 19 alternate feed header and don't use the start-up feedwater
'20 pump, and that includes the alternate feed reg valve.
The 21 start-up feed reg valve does level control on start-up.
I 22 DR. SEALE:
Are you telling me you had some labels 23 left over and so you just assigned those to these pumps?
I 24 mean they don't sound like they're start-up feedwater pumps.
i j.
25 MR. WINTERS:
Well, at the very lowest start-up, 1
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they are.
We couldn't call them alternate feed-water,
()
2 because --
3 DR. SEALE:
Okay.
4-MR. WINTERS:
-- that would imply that there's 5
some sert of safety implication, and there's no safety 6
implication with either of these pumps.
7 DR. SEALE:
Okay.
8 MR. WINTERS:
So, yes, it's a name that has some 9
meaning but not the meaning that you wanted or that we've 10 had in che past.
11 DR. SEALE:
Okay.
12 MR. WINTERS:
You're looking perplexed, John.
13 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Run the scenario for me again.
14 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
15 Normal start-up is we start up normally on the 16 start-up feedwater pump.
17 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Okay.
l 18 MR. WINTERS:
But it's only got a capacity of i
19 about 3 percent.
20 Then we light off the main pumps, but it goes 21 through the start-up feedwater header, through the start-up 22' feedwater reg valve.
We cross-connect on the pump side of 23 the reg valves.
24 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Okay.
25 MR. WINTERS:
Then, when you get up to the 10, 15 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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percent range, like we're normally used to switching over,
()
2 we switch over valving, not pumps, because we got the mains 3
going.
4 One main feedwater pump is plenty sufficient for 5
start-up service up to 15 percent, so we have redundancy 6
there, and the main pumps are also on a recirc, you know, so 7
that they don't overheat while you're on this low-flow 8
system.
9 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Okay.
10 MR. WINTERS:
Okay?
11 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Got it.
12 MR. WINTERS:
When we trip the main pumps, the 13 system realigns itself to be ready to take start-up feed 14 from start-up feed pumps, if necessary, because that's i
fi s,/
15 assumed that you're on decay heat, but if you're going to 16 restart, then you'd go to main pumps on the start-up 17 feedwater header.
18 Use of molar ratios for measuring secondary water 11 9 chemistry control -- Jay is right, when we get around to 20 defining the actual operating spec, that we'll end up with a 21 whole bunch of additional ratios and requirements.
They're
- 22 not in the SSAR.
We didn't think they needed to be at this 23 point, because water chemistry is one of those exact 24 sciences that changes every day.
e 25 DR. CARROLL:
Insulting an old water chemist here.
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DR. POWERS:
No, he thought the old stuff was 2
okay.
'It's the changing stuff.
3 MR. WINTERS:
That's right.
4 How to keep radioactive drain system drain traps 5
filled -- we're no better than anybody else.
We den't have 6
a way that's repetitive or guaranteed.
7 DR. CARROLL-Should there be some sort of a 8
surveillance requirement here?
9 MR. WINTERS:
There isn't on operating plants 10 today.
11 DR. CARROLL:
So?
12 MR. WINTERS:
Should there be is a bigger question 13 than AP600.
14 DR. CARROLL:
Yes.
We're talking about AP600.
15 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Is that a design or an 16 operational?
I don't know anybody that designs keep-filled 17 systems on their traps.
18 DR. CARROLL:
No, but it might not be a bad idea 19 to go around with a bucket of water or something, some kind 20 of a probe you could stick down in the floor drain and see 21 if there's water.
22 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
I'm going to move on.
23 Alternates to stellate -- obviously, the reason I 24 couldn't remember the alternate is because we have a 25 different alternate for each service.
So, here we go.
()
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For the reactor coolant. pumps -- and this is the
()
2 thrust bearings and the journal bearings -- we have a 3
qualified material called colmanolly-5.
4 DR. CARROLL:
Maybe this would be a better answer 5
to give.when Bill Shack is here, who is our metallurgical 6
expert.
7 DR. POWERS:
That's okay.
I know what colmanolly 8
iu.
9 MR. WINTERS:
This is a ferrous-based chromium 10 alloy that they treat to the point where it becomes 11 semi-ceramic, similar to stellate.
12 It has been qualified for service for life 13 service, but we don't know -- we didn't have time to check 14 to make sure that it was qualified for radioactive 15 environment service, but I bet you it is, because I think 16 they're using it on Naval pumps now.
But I don't know that 17 for sure because I'm not allowed to know that.
18 We anticipate using the same material for the 19 reactor internals keys, which is the only place we use hard 20 facing inside the reactor.
21 For CRDM latches, which, by the way, CRDM latches 22 is the biggest contributor to cobalt in current operating 23 plants, we have not selected a specific hard-facing material l
24 yet.
We started with seven, tested those.
We are now down 25 to two.
^f
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Those two we are now going to put through the 2
16-million-step test, 16 million latches.
CRDM latch is 3
what these are.
4 One is called _delachrome-210 or delachrome-220.
5 RIt's a proprietary mixture of iron and chrome.
The other 6'
that we're going to test is a French material called 7
trisille-6128, and that's also a French proprietary ferrous 8
chrome alloy.
9 Again, these are all' treated to getting to that 10 semi-ceramic state.
11 For valves -- and we get very little --
12 historically, we've gotten very little cobalt wear off of 13 the stellate that used to be in valves, but we're going to 14 use the EPRI-developed -- well, I can't even read my own l
l 15 writing here -- NOREM-2 or NOREM-5.
16 The-chromium content in this is -- excuse me --
17 the cobalt content is specified for all materials in contact 18 with reactor coolant for our plant to be less than.02 l
19 weight percent, and that's in the reactor coolant pump spec 20 today,.it's in the CRDM spec, and it will be in the valve 21 specs when we get around to writing those valve sheets.
22 So, the vendors have to qualify their components 23 for life service and for that cobalt spec.
24 Questions on that one?
25 MR. WINTERS:
Next is reason for statement of ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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reduced radiation exposure due to increased liability.
()
2 The main factor there is, as we said yesterday, 3
the canned motor pump, because it has a very good history in 4
service.
5 The other thing is that we're claiming high 6
reliability on steam generators, just like we always do.
7 DR. CARROLL:
Dating back to Yankee Rowe.
8 MR. WINTERS:
And you can make your own 9
conclusions on that claim.
10 And we have reduced the number of valves in the 11 total system, especially active valves, so that the 12 in-service inspection is less, and that reduced number is 13 also an indication of increased reliability, because you 14 have less things to go wrong.
15 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Yes, I understand that.
Thank 16 you.
17 MR. WINTERS:
How to remove gas in the ADS balance l
' 18 '
line.
19 DR. WALLIS:
Is that ADS or CMT?
l 20 MR. WINTERS:
The question is CMT.
The answer, 21 for ADS, we don't care if' gas gets up there, because there's 22 gas on both sides, but for CMT and for PRHR, the answer is 23 the same but the sizes are different.
24 In both cases,.the main pipe comes up, hits the 25 top.
For CMT, it's eight-inch.
For DRHR, it's 10-inch.
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Then a equivalent size T is installed in the pipe.
So, it's j
2 eight-inch for CMT, 10-inch for PRHR.
And that, in one 3
case, is connected to the nozzle, in the next case it's 4
connected to an elbow that goes down.
PRHR, it's connected 5
-- going this way is PRHR, after the turn is CMT, but the 6
arrangement's the same.
Pipe cap is put on that, and a vent 7
is put here.
8 In the pipe cap on top of the T, there is two 9
redundant bi-stable level switches.
If that switch 10 indicates that it has a level, that means there's gas in 11 that pipe.
12 The vent valve is located in a shielded area 13 inside containment.
You go into containment and you burp 14 the pipe until that bi-stable says it's full again.
15 So, during -- well, pre-operational we clear it 16 till we can'get it full.
During operation, if we ever get 17 an indication in the main control room that there's a level 18 in those caps, of which now there are three -- remember, 19 there's one on each CMT and one on the PRHR heat exchanger 20 pipe -- you go into containment and you burp it.
21 CMT burps to the reactor coolant drain tank.
The 22 PRHR, simply because it's right there, burps to the RWST, 23 both of which are in containment, so we burp into 24 containment, and that's hard-piped.
25 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Is it indicated in the control l-ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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room or alarmed in the control room or both?
,~~()
2 MR. WINTERS:
It's indicated in the control room, 3
alarmed if human factors decides it to be alarmed.
The 4
capability exists to alarm it.
5 DR. CARROLL:
That's one valve?
6 MR. WINTERS:
No, two valves in series on that 7
vent line.
8 DR. CARROLL:
Telltale in between?
9 MR. WINTERS:
Don't know.
Probably doesn't 10 matter.
It should be full at either valve, and then, when 11 you burp it, it will go right to where you want it to go 12 anyway.
13 DR. WALLIS:
There's one or two burpers?
14 MR. WINTERS:
I'm sorry.
Let me draw this.
This 15 goes somewhere, then there is a. valve, another valve, and 16 this is reactor coolant drain tank for CMTs, and it's IRWST 17 for PRHR.
18 DR. CARROLL:
The valves are not right on the --
19 MR. WINTERS:
No.
Well, in one case -- on the 20 PRHR, because that valve is in a lower radiation zone, 21 they're there.
On the CMT, because that's below the deck, 22 it's piped out to where a guy can get at it with a 23 reasonable radiation zone.
24 Remember that our reactor coolant drain tank is 25 down below, so it's at a little manifold that's in
- D ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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containment but in a more protected area than on top of that
,(,,
2 pipe.
3 Also remember that the top of the CMT is right 4
below a deck.
So, this vent comes up through the deck, over 5
to a wall, where you can hold the thing, and then goes back 6
down through the decks to the --
7 DR. WALLIS:
You said there's one vent?
8 MR. WINTERS:
One vent for each CMT.
9 DR. WALLIS:
So, if, for some reason, this 10 bi-stable switch didn't work --
11 MR. WINTERS:
There's two bi-stable switches.
12 DR. WALLIS:
I thought you said there were two.
13 MR. WINTERS:
There's redundant switcher.
14 DR. WALLIS:
Okay.
[h
\\m /
15 MR. WINTERS:
They're measuring the same vent.
16 DR. WALLIS:
There is redundancy at the switch 17 level.
18 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
So, there's four switches 19 tot. ally in the system, in the CMT.
20 DR. CARROLL:
I always get nervous about 21 small-diameter pipe or tubing connected to big diameter 22 stuff in terms of vibration.
23 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
Another thing that's in this 24 is there is an orifice in this line, just like with the 25 instrumentation lines and everything else, right at the l
C)
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connection to this main system.
. r'
(
2 This pipe is -- I think it's one-inch pipe, 3
because the smaller tubing can be damaged by people crawling 4
around in there, but what we do is put an orifice right at 5
the connection so that if the pipes ever -- you get a leak 6
-- it's probably more than a leak, it's spraying water, 7
because it's at 2,200 pounds, but at a small -- at a rate 8
that we can make up with the make-up pumps until we get to a 9
more stable condition.
10 We do that with all our instrumentation lines, as 11 well, put that orifice in that line.
12 Thank you, Jay, I forgot to mention that.
1 13 So, there is an orifict right here that's part of 14 the assembly.
\\~/.
15 Dr. Wallis, any other questions on that?
Okay.
16 The next one is yours, I believe, look at water 17-hammer.
i 18
.The questions on the ECCS design to be answered --
19 the magic Terry Schulz will take care of that.
I 20-DNBR is for a future meeting.
21 MR. McINTYRE:
For DNBR, Dr. Catton and I went 22 through the references and I showed him where it was in 23 Chapter 4, and there are some references from older times 24 that he claima.to not have and probably doesn't have, and j
25 we're going to provide those to him, some specific I
)
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references that do explain where it is that we did look at
()
2 DNB.
3 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
The next one is solid -- and 4
I believe that's pressurizer results and damage to relief 5
valve, and the question is, is that included in the PRA?
6 DR.' CARROLL:
First off, you've got to get the 7'
issue right.
Those are not relief valves.
Those are safety 8
valves.
9 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
In this plant, they are 10 safety valves, but they're designed to open and close 11 against steam, and water relief could damage those valves 12 for reseat.
13 DR. CARROLL:
Correct.
14 MR. WINTERS:
PRA does include them, and you'll 15 have to look at the PRA to see how, because it does it in a 16 couple of ways and for various combinations of scenarios.
17 In some cases, it just assumes that the thing -- it doesn't 18 go through an exercise of saying, well, it opened and it 19 didn't close; it just says it doesn't exist.
That's the 20' assumption for PRA.
21 In other cases, they do have a open but not close.
22 In other cases, they have a not open probability in there,
)
23 depending upon what logic train you're going down, but 24 that's a discussion for PRA, when you guys get to PRA.
25 The last two I don't have an answer for yet, and I i
()
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didn't get the list -- the other one that's on my list
)
2 that's not written here on Noel's list is the spent fuel 3
information that I didn't have committed to memory this 4
morning, and I didn't get to somebody at lunch.
So, we'll 5
get you that information.
Whatever's not in the SSAR, we'll 6
get you that near future, soon as I get back to write it 7
down.
8 DR. WALLIS:
Another question that didn't get on 9
Noel's list which I raised at the time -- this figure here, 10 where the clad temperature went up to 1,800 and stayed 11 there.
I couldn't understand the mechanism for it because 12 the power level's coming down.
13 MR. McINTYRE:
Right.
That was for the --
14 DR. WALLIS:
I'd like to know where it goes and p,
(-)
15 what the mechanism is for keeping it up so long anyway.
16 MR. WINTERS:
I think, Brian, you have that one on 17 your list.
18 MR. McINTTRE :
I've got that on my list, yes.
19 From the other Dudley list, if we're ready to get 20 into that, what I have is, page 2 of it -- and this is a Jim 21 Winters question -- ready?
22 MR. WINTERS:
Ready.
23 MR. McINTYRE:
Verify separation -- it's a 24 Carroll /Michelson question from 1995.
Noel keeps good 25 lists.
Verify separation of Class 1E battery room
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ventilation systems.
N\\
(
/
2 MR. WINTERS:
When I went through this morning, 3
very quickly, going over -- the A&C ventilation system is a 4
totally separate subsystem with a separate air-handling 5
unit, ducts, and everythi.ng from B&D, and then, upon 6
detection of a fire in either A or C, that part of the 7
subsystem shuts down, and so, they are separate.
8 I do have a picture here if we went to go into the 9
picture, but they are totally separate -- two are separate 10 from each other totally, and then, within the pair, one j
11 becomes separate upon detection of a fire.
12 MR. McINTYRE:
The next one that we addressed was 13.
5/31/95 from Jay Carroll that the number of security access points appears to be inadequate for the maintenance outage, 14
- q
.k/
15
-and I think, judging from what Jay heard today.and what John ms 16 heard today, that they're still -- bewildered and amazed, I 17 think, was the term that was used for that, and for what 18 we're discussing with respect to the NRC reviewing it, it's l
19 acceptable from a security standpoint, but it may, in your 20 minds, not be optimum from a plant operation standpoint.
21 DR. CARROLL:
Well, yes, except I guess I have to 22 worry about operator response to accidents.
If this system 23 slows that down, then I think there is a safety issue.
24 MR. McINTYRE:
I thought that Martin addressed 25 that of being able to open from CAS or SAS the doors.
(
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DR. CARROLL:
That helps.
He was a little vague
()
2 on what it took to do this.
I kept trying to get him to say 3
it was -- a single switch would open everything up, which at 4
least I know is one plant's security design, but he didn't 5
seem to know.
6 MR. McINTYRE:
I think that level of design has 7
not been -- we don't have numbers of switches on walls and 8
this aspect of it.
9 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
When you look at the design of 10 that, do you -- for the security system -- did they get into 11 looking at site emergency plans?
12 MR. McINTYRE:
No.
13 CHAIRMAN PARTON:
And can I satisfy the 14 requirements ir. site emergency?
15 MR'. McINUYRE:
The only thing that you look at is l
16 going to be how the design of the plant would interface with 17.
that, but the site emergency plan itself is something that's 1
i 18 carried as a combined license information item.
L 19 DR. CARROLL:
But you lock the COL holder into a 20 security system design pretty well at that point.
Oh, well.
21 MR. McINTYRE:
The next one on the -- Noel's list 22 is another Jay Carroll from 1/21/97, and I'm not sure --
{
23 which has to do with us referencing in 6-4 the stuff in 9-4.
24 MR. WINTERS:
We changed -- right now, what that 25 is -- the connection-of the habitability system, what we l
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' call.VES, to the operationLof VBS on 9-4, right, Jim?
I
(
2.
.-think that's what it is, HVAC.
3 DR. CARROLL:
I'm not sure.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Let me use Brian's here.
5 Discussion of' safety-related HVAC system in SSAR 6-section 9-4 should be referenced in SSAR section 6-4.
57 What that implies is that the SSAR used to say, in
~
8 the main control room, habitability, safety-related systems 9.
.section, that somehow it just started and here's what it 10 does,'and it didn't include a discussion of the isolation 11 features that are provided by the main VBS, and'it didn't 12 include the control features of the main VBS that got it 13 started in the first place, otner than loss of power.
14 In 9-4, that discussion was complete and had a 15 reference to 9-6 so that -- I mean 6-4 -- so that it went in 16 one direction but not the other.
We'have revised the SSAR 17-to correct that.
18 DR.-CARROLL:
That's fine.
19 MR. McINTYRE:
The next on the list is a 20.
subcommittee question.from that same meeting, request 21 explanation regarding conformance of the spent fuel pool 22; cooling system design to the staff policy position under 23 review by the Commission.
24-MR. WINTERS:
On that case, the staff policy 25
. review never happened, as far as getting to us as a set of
()
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' requirements.
What we believe is that the staff review is
()
2 sufficient that whatever rules, external or internal, that 3
they had and that we passed the test.
4 Now, we do owe you the information that you asked 5
this morning that I didn't memorize, and we can get you 6
that, but we've met all the published rules and regulations, 7
and the staff has agreed.
8 DR. CARROLL:
That was due to Susquehannah flap.
9 MR. WINTERS:
I don't know what it was referring 10 to.
11 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
It kind of got spread out.
They 12 sent pictures out to look at different designs.
Was it a 13 generic letter or something went out on that, I believe, and 14 asked utilities to go look at their pools, and you're saying
- O 15 that you had all that correspondence and you looked at all 16 of that.
17 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
But there was also to be a 18
-- I don't-know whether it was a SECY or a policy paper or a 19 new rules and regulations document of some sort that was in 20 review at one time, a few months ago.
We all knew that it 21
'was rummaging around and that we would have to perhaps 22 satisfy those requirements, but they never got issued, to 23 our knowledge.
24 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Because I think they were trying 25 to tie that into the shut-down rule.
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MR. WINTERS:
Right.
2 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
And that got put on the back 3
burner.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Right.
So,'until issue of that 5
rule, which includes the spent fuel pool part of it, or if 6
the spent fuel pool part gets separated, we're in limbo on 7
that.
8 MR. McINTYRE:
That's it.
Those are the ones from 9
the list that we should have answered during this session.
10 If anybody's got any suggestions, as long as we're here.
11 DR. CARROLL:
Let's see.
We had at least one I 12 can think of for the staff, didn't we?
I was asking Jim 13 Lyons if they ever revised the chilled water system Standard 14 Review Plan, and he said he could find out.
Were there
\\
15-others we had of the staff?
I can't remember now.
16 MR. DUDLEY:
From the past?
17 DR. CARROLL:
No, from today.
18 MR. DUDLEY:
From this meeting?
I've got to go 19 back over my notes again.
20 DR. CARROLL:
Okay.
I L
21 MR. WINTERS:
Any new questions that came to your 22 mind while we were gone?
23 DR. CARROLL:
Careful.
24 MR. WINTERS:
Okay.
That's it.
25 DR. CARROLL:
Don't ever volunteer.
6
()
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MR. WINTERS:
Well, I gave your your second.
So, 2
that's it.
3 DR. CARROLL:
Just like the Army, never volunteer.
4 MR. WINTERS:
Thank you very much.
5 MR. McINTYRE:
Noel has written down fuel 6
subcommittee.
7 DR. POWERS:
We'll probably change that around a 8
little bit on the fuel subcommittee, because it may be more 9
of a question to the staff than it is to you.
10 DR. CARROLL:
And it's more general than AP600.
11 DR. POWERS:
Anything fancy with your fuel other 12 than zircalloy?
13 MR. McINTYRE:
No.
14 DR. POWERS:
You don't have any of this fancy O
15 boron carbide.
16 MR. McINTYRE:
Not that I know of.
Fuel that j
17 doesn't leak is our primary goal.
18 DR. POWERS:
Well, more than.25 percent.
19 MR. McINTYRE:
Well, that's one of the big things 20 when utilities look to buy fuel, as you two guys know, is if 21 you're at_.25 percent, you're not going to sell any fuel.
22 DR. POWERS:
Not likely to sell very much.
i 23 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
All right.
Having gone over-the i
H24 outstanding _ questions that we can answer at this time, the 25 next item before we wrap up is any input that members of the
()
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subcommittee -- there's a couple of things -- any inputs
(,~ )
\\
2 members of the subcommittee have from their chapters that i
3 you want to give to Noel so we can draft the initial l
4 go-around of an interim report on these two days' meetings.
)
5 We've already got some comments from Ivan, and 6
Jay, I think, has some.
If anybody else has any, please i
7 give them to Noel, j
8 DR. UHRIG:
I think, at least as far as I'm
)
9 concerned, Chapters 9 and 10 -- I had questions, but they 10 were answered.
I don't know that there's anything that we 11 need to report in a letter other than to say that we concur.
12 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Okay.
But if there is anything 13 that has to be put.in a letter, that we looked at this 14 chapter and, you know, we believe we're satisfied.
k_sl 15 DR. UHRIG:
You don't want a list of things we 16 looked at.
i 17 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
No.
18 DR. FONTANA:
In reading Chapter 15, you know, 19 there's a very detailed list of things to look into, and 20 then -- can we refer to the SER?
And the staff says it 21 looks okay to us, but there's nothing in there to tell us 22 how they came to that conclusion or anything like that.
23 DR. SEALE:
It suffers the -- I'll use a neutral 24 word -- truncation that inevitably occurs whenever you talk 25 about design basis accidents rather than a risk hierarchy of f~~
( j.
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accident identification.
()
2 DR. FONTANA:
I think it would.be very helpful --
3 I don't think it will.ever get into a letter.
It would he 4
very helpful if it was written down what references a person 5
can go to to chase down how the' decision was arrived at.
6 DR. POWERS:
- Well, I. don't think you'll find l
7 anything there.
I mean there's nothing they can write down, 8-just because of the way the documentation tends to get done.
9 DR. FONTANA:
I don't think there's anything'we 10 can do about it, but it does leave you kind of --
11 DR. POWERS:
Now, as far as staff calculations, 12 I'm at least familiar with one that was extensive and 13 greatly detailed interactions between Westinghouse's
)
14 subcontractor and staff's subcontractor till an agreement i
15
. was reached on what the numbers should look like.
16 DR. KRESS:
I think Mario is saying that there J
17 ought to be a standard on how to write SERs.
18 DR. FONTANA:
That shows how to follow a paper 19 trail.
20 DR. KRESS:
.This is a big NRC question, doesn't 21' have anything to do with AP600.
22__
DR. WALLIS:
There's-no indication of all the work 1
23 that went into reviewing it.
It's just simply a catalog --
24 an abbreviated version of what's the SAR saying it's okay.
25-DR. SEALE:
It rather short-changes the staff
()
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effort.
-2
.DR. WALLIS:
Right.
It does.
Coming.into this 3
meeting, I felt it would be nice to have a staff 4
presentation which was almost as long as Westinghouse's 5
saying what were the issues:that they.went after and how 6-they resolved them, but I guess we don't do that.
7
.DR.
POWERS':
There's no reason not to.
8 DR. CARROLL:
Except remember what was said 9
yesterday.
Burden of proof is on the applicant.
Staff only 10 says yes, we finally got a point where we agree with the
- 11.
applicant's position.
.12
.DR.
FONTANA:
Having sat through days of thermal
'13 hydraulic subcommittee meetings'that have gone on before, 14 before I got on the committee, too, and know the agonizing 15 back-and-forth that's gone on in there, you wouldn't have.
16.
any idea, from reading this, that that much depth has gone 17 into it.
18 MR. McINTYRE:
Yesterday Tom-Kenyon said look at 19' the supplemental DSER that was written, I guess it was April 20 of
'96, and that's a pretty good snapshot of the stuff that 21 we were going through, of the types of things that the staff
.22 had as open items at that time.
There were 462 of them, or 23 some number like that.
24 DR. SEALE:
COBRA / TRAC and various Westinghouse 25.
codes that they've used in this evaluation have had a life ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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of their own in terms of previous subcommittee meetings.
If
()
2 you didn't have that, you'd be pretty bound, because an 3
awful lot had to do with what do you do to these codes to 4
make them remotely reasonable for the particular 5
characteristics of this plan, namely the natural circulation 6
and that sort of thing.
7 DR. KRESS:
When you look at the process, if there 8
are disagreements between the staff and AP600 or 9
Westinghouse and open items, they debate these out and fight 10 them out and work them out until they finally reach some 11 sort of agreement.
12 So, the nature of the SER almost has to be we find 13 this acceptable, because if they go through all that 14 history, it gets to be a weird document.
15 DR. WALLIS:
We don't witness this gladiatorial J
16 combat.
17 DR. KRESS:
Well, the question is, does this meet 18 our requirements, and the answer is yes.
You could spell
}
19 out what the requirements are.
20 DR. WALLIS:
You don't know that this gladiator 21 fought a good fight unless you have some idea of what the 22 fight was.
23 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Our role also isn't an in-line 24 approval.
It's an audit overview function on how the 25 process --
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1 DR. FONTANA:
If we were going on the basis of
()
2 what we heard today, we don't know enough about it.
3 DR. SEALE:
That's right.
4 DR. FONTANA:
On the basis of the subcommittee 5
meetings, we saw the agonizing fight and all the blood and 6
everything.
You can come to a conclusion from that.
It's i
7' just that what's given here and what's written here is not l
8 adequate.
9 DR. KRESS:
If you also read the SAR very 10 carefully, you got a pretty good look.
11 DR. FONTANA:
Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
All right.
Two other items.
13 One, I haven't heard from Dana, although there were some 14 ripplings here on Chapter 9A, the fire analysis,-that we not O
15 close the door on that one.
E16 DR. POWERS:
Yes, we want to look both at the SER 17 and the submission with respect, particularly, to hot
]
18 shorts.
19 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Okay.
Will you have, between 20 now and the May subcommittee meeting, some questions we can 21 feed to Noel to get to Westinghouse?
22 DR. POWERS:
If we have any residual questions 23 after doing that examination, we will.
24 DR. SEALE:
Are you going to say anything about 25 security?
()
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CHAIRMAN BARTON:
I'm going to give Noel some 7
l.
although it appears to meet the requirements, 2
words on, 3
staff is satisfied with the design, something about has it 4
really looked at the safe operation and maintenance of the 5
plant in response to emergency situations, you know, is a 6
committee question.
7 DR. SEALE:
Great.
Great.
8 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
That's all I want to say about 9
it, but I think that's enough that kind of expresses our 10 uneasiness that either we don't understand it totally and 11 somebody can come back and make us feel better about it or 12 else there is a problem there, and I guess it ends up being 13 a licensee's problem.
14 Then the last item --
i 15 DR. CARROLL:
But the flavor should be that there 16 is a safety issue here.
17 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
It appears to be.
From our i
18 understanding of the design, it appears to be --
19 DR. SEALE:
Capability to respond to plant upsets.
20 We'd hate to always have to rely on the natural circulation 21 features of this plant to get us out of every problem.
22 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
I think it's an operational 23 thing.
24 It's really not a safety issue, so I guess we 25 can't make an issue of it, but if you look at, I think,
()
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where they drive the licensee into above and beyond
(,/
2 requirements for ingress and egress during maintenance 3
outages and stuff, that's all extra, extra money and stuff 4
it costs to operate the plant.
5 But yet, it makes it a much more economical design 6
and it's cheaper security-wise.
7 I think what we've got is we've got a trade-off 8
here of making security a lot easier, but have we really 9
made operating and maintaining the plant and handling 10 outages more expeditious, more efficient?
I don't know.
11 The sense I get is maybe we haven't.
12 Maybe there's a trade-off here which saves on one 13 side but not on the other, although we hear that operators 14 had looked at Southern Nuclear's design, and we don't know s/
15 who they were or whatever, but somebody looked at it and it 16 was what they could live with.
We will still raise the 17 issue.
18 Last item, unless somebody has anything else, this 19 is an agenda item for the full committee meeting later in 20 the week, and unfortunately, you guys put a lot of effort 21 into this for, I guess, 80 or 90 percent of the full 22 committee.
23 We've got two members, George and Bill Shack, who 24 have not heard or seen any of this, and Don Miller.
25 What level of detail do we want Westinghouse to go
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through at the full subcommittee?
How much time do we have?
O
( j 2
We have an hour?
3 Can you put two days into one hour?
4.
MR. McINTYRE:
Sure.
5 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
You did it last time.
6 MR. McINTYRE:
We'll do what Ron and I did last 7
time.
8 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
And maybe just hit the 9
highlights of where the issues are.
10 MR.-McINTYRE:
Sure.
11 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Okay.
12 DR.. CARROLL:
Is this the time that 13 leak-before-break on the feedwater system is going to be 14 discussed with Shack?
O 15 MR. McINTYRE:
No.
I think that would be in the 16 May meeting.
17 MR. KENYON:
Leak-before-break is a Chapter 3 18 item, and that's currently scheduled for the May meeting, so 19 we just figured we'd cover it then.
20 MR. DUDLEY:
The staff has provided me a draft 21
. document of the issue of the ASME acceptance of the 1994 22 addendum.
So, that will be heard by the full committee in 23 June, and it has direct bearing on acceptance by the staff.
24
' So, I can share that with you.
25; DR. CARROLL:
Very good, t
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DR. KRESS:
John, on Chapter 15, I still have a
(
)
2 lingering residual issue on the lambda.
I don't think it's 3
going to be a problem for the AP600 people, because I think, 4
as a one-time certification process, that it can be l
5 justified for their particular plant, but I think my issue 1
6 goes to the philosophy of this type of departure from the 7
previous design basis concept and the previous regulations 8
without a well-thought-out basis for it.
I don't see it as i
9 an issue that's a safety issue for AP600, but it's an issue 10 that, somewhere along the line, we want to bring up with the 11 staff, I think.
)
1 12 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Do you want to give us some 13 words and we'll put that in the letter?
14 DR. KRESS:
Well, it's words to go to the staff.
,s
(_./
15 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Well, this letter will go to the 16 staff.
17 DR. KRESS:
Okay.
I'll write some words.
18 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
This will be our letter to the 19 staff on where we stand with respect to the overall review 20 of AP600.
So, if it's a point to be made to the staff --
21 DR. KRESS:
The issue basically goes into how one 22 can properly defend and justify the use of any particular 23 lambda related to diffusiophoresis and thermophoresis.
24 There's a technical way to do that, and it's not the way 25 they did it, and it doesn't impact AP600, because if they l
I
( }j
?
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did it right, they'd still get the same answer, but there is
()
2 a technical way to do that, and that's the nature of what 3
I'm going to write.
4 DR. FONTANA:
Let me ask a distantly related 5
question.
6-On Chapter 6,_when you talk about containment, l
7 will you talk about the non-safety-grade spray system that's l,
8 in it?
9 MR. McINTYRE:
We'll mention it, we'll say that 10 it's there, but we're not going to say how well it works.
11 DR. KRESS:
Take credit for it in your PRA?
12 MR. McINTYRE:
We don't need to take any credit 13 for it.
14 DR. CARROLL:
If it isn't necessary, why are you
\\os 15 putting it in?
16 DR. KRESS:
Would you care to answer that?
17 MR. McINTYRE:
No.
I've avoided it for almost two 18 days now, and I've done very well.
I think of this 19 committee every. time I think of this.
20 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
You'll have something to 21 remember us by.
22 MR. McINTYRE:
The committee endorsed it.
You 23 weren't here, Jay.
24 DR. KRESS:
Jay might have made the difference.
25 It was a close vote.
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DR. CARROLL:
Was it really?
Okay.
()
2 One thing we talked about yesterday -- I'm drawing 3
a mental blank on what the term is, but I mentioned -- can 4
the operator starting up some of the investment protection 5
systems screw up the passive systems?
What's that called?
6 MR. McINTYRE:
The staff had judged it adverse 7
systems interactions.
8 DR. CARROLL:
Adverse systems interaction.
Are we 9
going to hear a general presentation on adverse systems 10 interactions at some point?
Is that part of PRA?
11 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Have you got an idea of where 12 that might fit?
13 MR. McINTYRE:
Probably with the PRA.
That's 14 where it got sucked in.
15 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Noel is check, and.we'll get 16 that slotted in the right place.
17 DR. CARROLL:
One way or the other, I'd like to 18 hear about how that was done.
19 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Any other comments before we 20 adjourn this subcommittee meeting?
21 (No response.]
22 CHAIRMAN BARTON:
Adjourned.
23
[Whereupon, at 2:23 p.m.,
the meeting was 24 concluded.)
25
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