ML022880194
| ML022880194 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 09/17/2002 |
| From: | NRC/RGN-III |
| To: | |
| References | |
| Download: ML022880194 (76) | |
Text
ORIGINAL 1 1
2 3 U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION FIRST ENERGY NUCLEAR OPERATING COMPANY 4 PUBLIC MEETING 5
Meeting held on Tuesday, September 17, 2002, at 6 7:00 p.m. at the Oak Harbor High School, Oak Harbor, Ohio, taken by me, Marlene S. Rogers-Lewis, Stenotype 7 Reporter, and Notary Public, in and for the State of Ohio.
8 9
10 PANEL MEMBERS PRESENT:
11 U. S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 12 John Grobe, Chairman, MC 0350 Panel 13 William Dean, Vice Chairman, MC 0350 Panel 14 Christine Lipa, Branch Chief, Region 3 15 Anthony Mendiola, Section Chief PDIII-2, NRR 16 Christopher (Scott) Thomas, Senior Resident Inspector - Davis-Besse 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
2 1 MR. GROBE: Good e, 2 name is Jack Grobe. I work for the I 3 Regulatory Commission office in Chica(
4 We have responsibility for the nuclea:
5 and the safety of the nuclear power p' 6 Midwest including, of course, the Day:
7 facility.
8 Let me start by introducing t]
9 that are here tonight. On my far le:
10 Thomas. Scott is the Senior Residen 11 He is a member of the staff of Region 12 the Davis-Besse nuclear power plant e 13 in the community.
14 Also is Doug Simpkins -- rais, 15 Doug.
16 MR. SIMPKINS: (Indic.
17 MR. GROBE: Doug's 18 Inspector at Davis-Besse. Also works 19 Next to Scott is Tony Mendiol.
20 supervisor in our headquarter's offic, 21 Maryland. Tony has responsibility f, 22 activities associated with Davis-Bess' 23 number of other plants.
24 On my immediate left is Bill 25 the Deputy Director of the Division o MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
3 1 and headquarters. He is also the Vice Chairman of 2 the Davis-Besse oversight panel. It's a panel that 3 the NRC has chartered. I'm the chairman of that 4 panel.
5 On my right is Christine Lipa. Christine is 6 a Supervisor in the Region 3 office. She supervises 7 Scott and Doug and has responsibility for two other 8 plants also.
9 In addition to Doug in the audience, we have 10 Jan Strasma. Jan, raise your hand.
11 MR. STRASMA: (Indicating).
12 MR. GROBE: Jan is our Public 13 Affairs Officer in the Region 3 office, and Roland 14 Lickus is State and Govern Affairs officer in the 15 Region 3 office. I think that's all the NRC staff 16 that's here tonight.
17 The purpose of the meeting tonight is to give 18 you a little bit of background on the meeting we had 19 this afternoon, as well as Christine is going to talk 20 a little bit about the meeting we have tomorrow, and 21 then we look forward to questions, any questions that 22 you might have, as well as any comments that you want 23 to provide us. We're here to receive input and to 24 answer your questions. We've been doing this for a 25 number of months now.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
4 1 Let me first get a -- kind of 2 land; is there anybody that's here th 3 has not been to any of the prior meet 4 had on the Davis-Besse plant?
5 THEREUPON, several members ra 6 indicating first time attendance.
7 MR. GROBE: Excell, 8 The -- maybe I should go back since w, 9 dozen folks here that haven't been he 10 me talk a little bit about the backgr, 11 happened at Davis-Besse and what we'r, 12 then we'll get into it. I appreciat, 13 coming out.
14 Davis-Besse shut down in the i 15 February this year for a routine refu 16 In addition to the normal refueling a 17 occur during those types of outages, 18 implementing some special inspection 19 were issued by the NRC in what we ref.
20 Bulletin. It's a document that we s 21 Licensees and ask them to take certai:
22 the action that we requested was that 23 Davis-Besse, pressurized water reacto 24 inspection of the reactor head becaus 25 experienced a number of other plants MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
5 1 leakage through some tubes. They are about four inch 2 diameter pipes that go through the reactor head and 3 those pipes -- they're referred to as penetrations or 4 nozzles. The purpose is for equipment to go in and 5 out of the reactor head. There is about 69 of these 6 penetrations on top of the reactor. When we refer 7 to the head, it's a semi-circular, bolted on top to 8 react to the pressure vessel. The presser vessel is 9 the part of the reactor that holds the nuclear fuel, 10 and that's where heat is generated, and eventually 11 that heat is converted into electricity through a 12 steam -- steam cycle.
13 The Company identified a number of cracks in 14 the penetrations which was not unexpected. Some of 15 those cracks went the whole way through the 16 penetration, and they had leaked out onto the top of 17 the reactor pressure vessel head.
18 In the process of repairing those cracks, the 19 Company identified that there had been a cavity that 20 developed next to one of the penetrations. When I 21 say a cavity, what I mean, it was about four to five 22 inches wide and about six or seven inches long. It 23 was kind of an oblong shaped -- and it went the whole 24 way through the six and a half inches of steel in 25 that area, and what happened is boric acid corroded MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
6 1 the steel away. Boric acid is an ad 2 reactor coolant. It's added to the 3 at very mild levels on the orders of 4 couple of thousands parts per million 5 nuclear reaction, the system controll 6 reaction. The element boron is usef 7 regard.
8 When the leakage occurred thr 9 penetration, the cracks in the penetr 10 acid became more concentrated and cor 11 corroded the steel. The -- the resu 12 corrosion was that the liner on the i 13 normal steel that's referred to as lo 14 there's a stainless steel liner, and 15 material that was left that was retai 16 pressure, the reactor coolant system 17 The Agency's response, the NR 18 these findings at Davis-Beese were to 19 panel. It's referred to as the -- so 20 see it referred to as the 0350 panel 21 panel. It's -- 0350 refers to a proc 22 internal procedure we have. It's a p 23 The purpose of this panel is to provi 24 oversight by the Agency, by the NRC, 25 we're doing a good job evaluating Lic MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
7 1 performance and making sure that should this plant 2 get to a point where it can restart that we've done 3 our job and provided appropriate inspections and 4 licensing activities.
5 Situations like the situation Davis-Besse 6 finds itself in are fairly complex from our 7 perspective. It requires a lot of unique 8 inspections that are not part of our normal 9 inspection program. It also requires oftentimes 10 unique licensing activities. Currently, the Company 11 has six licensing actions into us for various 12 different issues, and because of the complexity of 13 the project, the Agency puts together a multi-faceted 14 panel with folks from headquarters, as well as the 15 region office or the resident office, and our goal is 16 to coordinate activities to make sure that the Agency 17 does what it needs to do.
18 As I mentioned, Bill Dean is a Senior Manager 19 from our headquarter's office. I'm the Senior 20 Manager from the region office in Chicago, so it has 21 a high level of management attention both from 22 regional office as well as headquarters.
23 We have been conducting meetings now for 24 several months. Our goal is to make our activities 25 as available to members of the public as possible so MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
8 1 we conduct the vast majority of our meetings in the 2 public here in the local area. We've had the need 3 to conduct a couple meetings -- excuse me, either in 4 Chicago or in Washington just because of logistical 5 purposes, but the majority of our meetings will be 6 out here, and we'll normally be conducting business 7 meetings during the business day, but it's my 8 expectation that whenever you come out, we'll be 9 conducting an evening meeting for those of you that 10 can't make it to a meeting during the business day.
11 You'll have an opportunity to come and ask us 12 questions and provide us input.
13 Any other background information -- oh, thank 14 you.
15 THEREUPON, the panel brought up the issue of 16 the handout.
17 MR. GROBE: When you came in this 18 evening there was a number of handouts out on the 19 table. I hope you had an opportunity to pick them 20 up. One of them is a newsletter we put out on a 21 monthly basis now. It's got six or seven pages.
22 Looks like this. It's called NRC Update -
23 Davis-Besse Reactor Vessel Head Damage, NRC Update.
24 It provides a variety of background information, but 25 also the last two or three pages are activities that MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
9 1 we currently have undergoing and activities that we 2 expect to be happening in the next six weeks, and it 3 will give you a sense for where we have been, where 4 we are now as an Agency and what to expect in the 5 future.
6 There also is a one page form in the back on 7 the table out front. It's what we refer to as a 8 feedback form. You can fill it out, fold it up, put 9 a staple on it, and drop it in the mailbox, and it 10 will come to us. We would certainly appreciate your 11 feedback on the format of these meetings, the 12 content, what we discussed, suggestions on how we can 13 improve these types of meetings, so if you'd take a 14 few minutes, if you can, and fill one of those out, 15 send it back to us.
16 Anything else?
17 (No response).
18 Okay, very good.
19 What I'd like to do now is ask Christine to 20 talk about the meeting we're having tomorrow morning.
21 It's a little bit different situation. We had a 22 topic we wanted to spend an extended period of time 23 focused on one topic, so we scheduled a separate 24 meeting for that. It is a public meeting, and 25 Christine will talk to you a little bit about that.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
10 1 MR. STRASMA: Jack, you might 2 mention that it's also available by telephone.
3 MS. LIPA: Right, right, okay.
4 As Jack mentioned, we have been having these 5 public 0350 panel meetings here every month, and then 6 when we have a special topic that we want to discuss, 7 we try to see if we can fit it in that meeting, if a 8 second meeting is warranted.
9 On August 15th we held a meeting in the 10 Region 3 office where the Licensee came in and 11 presented the results of their root cause of the 12 Management and Human Performance issues that led to 13 the degradation, and following that meeting, they let 14 us know just recently that they're ready to come in 15 and present to us their corrective action plan for 16 the findings from that root cause, so we've scheduled 17 a meeting for tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m., from 18 nine to noon, and this meeting is actually going to 19 be held at the Davis-Besse administration building, 20 which is the building right there on Route 2. It's 21 pretty obvious what the building is, and you'll be 22 able to get in and the auditorium is on the second 23 floor, and it will be obvious. There will be signs, 24 and so we're planning to have this meeting tomorrow 25 from nine to noon. It will be a public meeting.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
11 I It will also be -- phone lines will be available for 2 people who are not able to make the meeting and want 3 to call in and listen in and ask questions at the 4 end.
5 We will also have the Licensee's 6 presentation, will be posted to our web page so that 7 people can print it out or follow along during the 8 meeting, and that meeting will also be transcribed 9 just like we're have this meeting tonight 10 transcribed. We've got Marlene down here, and we 11 have our regular business meetings every month 12 transcribed, and then we try to get those on our 13 website within about three weeks. We did get some 14 feedback from our earlier meeting that the 15 transcribed file was too large, so we've broken that 16 up into 50 page segments, and that seems to be easier 17 for users, so that's what I wanted to say about the 18 meeting tomorrow.
19 Another thing, when you came in, there might 20 have been left over handouts from this afternoon's 21 meeting so that will give you a sense of what we 22 talked about this afternoon, and then Bill will give 23 us some more details.
24 UNIDENTIFIED: What is the phone 25 number, please?
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
12 1 MS. LIPA: The phone number is on 2 the web page. I don't have it with me.
3 MR. GROBE: Jan, do you have it?
4 MR. STRASMA: No, but I'll get it.
5 MR. GROBE: If somebody needs 6 information like the phone number for that meeting 7 tomorrow morning, just let us know what you need, and 8 we'll get it to you. That's not a problem at all.
9 The way we set this up is there's a large number of 10 phone lines available, and the sound quality should 11 be good. I'm not sure how many we set up, 50 or 12 100, probably, so don't hesitate -- if you're unable 13 to attend the meeting tomorrow, if you're unable to 14 attend the meeting tomorrow, and you want to get on 15 by phone, don't hesitate to call in. If you have 16 access to a computer, the Licensee's presentation 17 materials will be on our website.
18 Let me talk a little bit more about our 19 website for those of you that are -- have access to 20 computers. The NRC website is very simply 21 WWW.NRC.GOV, and a home page will come up in the 22 upper right-hand corner, will be a segment that talks 23 about current issues. There's an indicator, a link 24 as it's referred to, for Davis-Besse, and that will 25 take you right to the Davis-Besse website, which is, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
13 1 I think, very well organized and has an enormous 2 amount of information on it. It's fairly easy to 3 navigate through, so if you're interested, you can 4 get a large amount of information -- access to a 5 large amount of information through that process, and 6 you can always call us, myself or Roland or Jan, and 7 get questions answered.
8 MS. LIPA: (Indicating).
9 MR. GROBE: Oh, you have the phone 10 number?
11 MS. LIPA: The phone number for 12 tomorrow's meeting is 877-601-4713, and then the pass 13 code is Davis-Besse, so that's 877-601-4713, and 14 that's 9:00 a.m. to noon tomorrow.
15 MR. GROBE: Yeah, that phone 16 number is for an MCI operator and just tell her you 17 want Davis-Besse, and she'll get you onto the right 18 conference call.
19 Let me talk a little more about the meeting 20 tomorrow because it's a very important meeting.
21 There is a number of issues that caused the problems 22 of Davis-Besse. Obviously there is some equipment 23 problems that need to be fixed. The Company is 24 working on finding all those problems and fixing 25 them, but the issues at Davis-Besse weren't caused by MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
14 1 equipment. They were causea cy organ 2 problems, management problems, organiz 3 problems, and, quite frankly, problems 4 workers.
5 The Davis-Besse organization d 6 it needed to do. There were plenty c 7 that there was a problem going on at t 8 Their response to those indicators was 9 We conducted what we refer to as an at i0 inspection team. It's an event respc 11 inspection right after this issue was 12 we just completed a follow-up to that 13 which will document all of the deficis 14 identified in April right after the ex 15 but last August, August 15th, the Coml 16 to us what they believe are the organj 17 problems that contributed to the event 18 Davis-Besse, and the meeting tomorrow, 19 FirstEnergy is going to present to us 20 believe are the corrective actions thý 21 those organizational problems.
22 The key to fixing the issues 23 is not fixing hardware. It's fixing 24 organizational problems that occurred 25 morning's meeting is very important t(
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
15 1 these issues that resu+/-rea in +/-ow quaw 2 and, quote, communications in the orga 3 allowed an issue to go on for years wh 4 clearly indicators that something was 5 Those issues are the most important on 6 that's what I refer to as the root cau 7 As Christine mentioned, the me 8 Davis-Besse administration building.
9 and park. There is only one door in t 10 can't miss it. In fact, the auditoric 11 first floor right on the right, and ti 12 people to direct you to that meeting i 13 interested.
14 Bill is going to talk a littlE 15 meeting this afternoon and what we diE 16 MR. DEAN: I don't 17 too much time rehashing this afternoox 18 'cause the main objective of being he) 19 try to establish a dialogue with the (
20 receive your feedback and answer any (
21 might have, but for those that were n(
22 attend the meeting this afternoon we ]
23 Licensee, as Christine noted earlier 24 monthly meetings we've had with the L.
25 discuss the status of their Return to MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
16 1 and give us an opportunity to nave a a 2 the Licensee to pulse them on some iss 3 our radar screen and to get a sense of 4 think they are in terms of finding iss 5 resolving them. I would say that tod 6 given the topic of tomorrow's meeting 7 what we believe to be the major focal 8 of what the root cause of the problem 9 Tonight's meeting was really more focu 10 pretty much the hardware issues, the t 11 that the Licensee has found in doing t 12 evaluations of systems and equipment a 13 the types of things that they are purE 14 of trying to enhance the capability of 15 improve its performance from equipment 16 and so that's what we spent most of oi 17 Talked about the various statuses of t 18 Blocks, their performance improvement 19 was a couple areas where the NRC focuE 20 and -- and challenged the Licensee on 21 issues that we've seen emerge, and on(
22 spent a particular amount of time on, 23 because of the issue in and of itself 24 significant, but that it reveals and 25 of the underlying issues that led to 1 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
17 1 degradation that still need to be addressed, and this 2 is an issue they had with their polar crane, which is 3 a large crane inside their containment that they use 4 to move heavy pieces of equipment, like the reactor 5 vessel head, and some of the concerns that they had 6 with work that was done on that polar crane and the 7 standards that existed leaving the polar crane in the 8 condition that they felt was less than optimum and 9 the fact that this involves control of contractors, 10 assuring that the contractors are working to 11 standards that the Licensee believe that they need to 12 have.
13 It's important to note that with all of the 14 work that's going on at Davis-Besse, it's not all 15 being done by plant staff. In fact, I think they 16 used the number today of approximately 1,300 17 contractors are at the site doing various types of 18 work at the plant, and so that's a large -- that's a 19 large number of people to try and ensure it has the 20 same values and standards regarding work performance, 21 so we challenged the Licensee quite a bit to various 22 aspects of the meeting in terms of understanding how 23 are they going about ensuring contract work is being 24 done in accordance with their standards, and I think 25 we need to have further dialogue. I think we left MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
18 1 the meeting today with some unanswered questioned and 2 we're looking for some more information from the 3 Licensee and a better demonstration of how well they 4 are managing their contract work force.
5 A second area that came up, we discussed 6 briefly mainly because it's still an emerging issue, 7 and we don't have all of the information, but about a 8 week or so ago, the piece of the reactor vessel head 9 that was removed and sent to a -- framatone labs in 10 Lynchburg, Virginia for analysis it was discovered 11 that the liner that Jack referred to that was serving 12 as the pressure retention barrier between the reactor 13 coolant and outside of the containment when the top 14 of the reactor vessel head corroded, it was 15 discovered some surface cracks at the top of that 16 liner, and, you know, that calls in question perhaps, 17 you know, some of the assumptions we've made 18 regarding the pressure retention capability of the 19 liner, and it's an issue that we and the Licensee are 20 going to have to delve into to understand what does 21 that cracking mean, what does it represent, you know, 22 does it represent something of significance, or is it 23 something to be expected for that type of -- of 24 material giving its interface with the reactor vessel 25 head, so there's a lot of unanswered questions that MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
19 1 that issue raises. That will probably take us some 2 amount of time to understand, and so we really just 3 touched on that topic, but there is a lot more to 4 come in terms of what the implications are of that 5 surface cracking that was identified.
6 The Licensee updated us on the status of 7 where they are with the reactor vessel head that they 8 purchased from Midland. That reactor vessel head 9 has been moved into containment. The old reactor 10 vessel head has been moved outside of containment.
11 Most of you may be aware that in order to move these 12 reactor vessel heads they had to cut a large hole in 13 the shield building and containment vessel itself.
14 The Licensee is now in the process of rewelding the 15 large metal plate that was removed from the 16 containment and re-establish the rebar in concrete 17 shield building wall, and those are activities that 18 will be ongoing over the next week or so. We have 19 inspectors on site that are watching what the 20 Licensee is doing with respect to that activity, and 21 so we'll be providing our NRC oversight of that 22 effort.
23 I guess the last point to make is that in the 24 Licensee's efforts to demonstrate that they are 25 addressing one of the root causes that Jack referred MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
20 1 to, and that is an approach or a mentality towards 2 operating at a minimum compliance level as opposed to 3 operating at a level where they try to, you know, 4 have an appropriate -- more appropriate focus on 5 safety and enhancing performance of the plant. The 6 Licensee identified a number of activities that they 7 are undertaking while the plant is shut down in order 8 to try and improve performance and improve safety 9 margin, and they described a couple in particular.
10 One being, the reactor containment sump which 11 is an area that if there were to be an accident at 12 the plant where you had a loca, a large break, where 13 water was going into containment this water would 14 collect in a sump area. That then could be used at 15 some point in time to be recirculated back into the 16 reactor vessel in order to keep the cool fuel and 17 keep the fuel from melting, so it's a very important 18 part of the emergency defense and depth layer that 19 any nuclear power plant has, and so they describe 20 activities ongoing to a large capacity of that sump, 21 a significant amount to give them what they believe 22 to be a large amount of safety margin, so that was 23 one of the major evolutions that they described.
24 Somewhat oriented with that is an emerging 25 issue with components inside containment that have MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
21 1 coatings that the Licensee has noted to be degraded 2 and potential for these coatings to -- in a very 3 harsh environment that you might have in an 4 accident -- to perhaps peel off and collect in the 5 sump area, and so we have some questions for the 6 Licensee regarding the aspects of that from a safety 7 perspective, but we had some discussion on that topic 8 today. I think the Licensee still has more analysis 9 to do. That's something we're going to follow very 10 closely because that does have some implications 11 about -- or potential implications about safe 12 operation of a plant in an emergency situation, so 13 I'm not sure if there is anything else that anyone 14 feels we ought to touch on.
15 (No response).
16 MR. GROBE: Thanks, Bill. I 17 caught myself like most highly technical disciplines, 18 we have our own language, and we're going to try to 19 make sure we don't speak in lingo. I've referred to 20 FirstEnergy or Davis-Besse as the Licensee. That's 21 what we call them because they have a license that we 22 issue to operate the plant, so if we talk about a 23 Licensee, that's Davis-Besse.
24 Bill used the phrase loca, which is a loss of 25 coolant to accident. It's one of the more MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
22 1 significant things that we worry about and the plant 2 is designed to, has safety systems and back up 3 systems that are designed to deal with that kind of 4 an accident, but what happens is if a pipe breaks 5 where you get a hole in the head of the reactor that 6 actually goes through the head of the reactor you can 7 loose the coolant that's inside the reactor that 8 keeps the fuel cool and that coolant ends up going to 9 the basement of the containment building and this 10 sump area that Bill was talking about is where the 11 emergency pumps would suck the water in and pump it 12 back into the reactor to keep the fuel cool, so it's 13 a very important component.
14 If we slip up and talk in lingo, just throw 15 something at us and we'll correct it and make sure 16 that we communicate effectively.
17 We'd like to try to keep these very 18 comfortable and informal type meetings, but I would 19 like to describe just a little bit of structure.
20 Before I do that, I'd like to ask any elected 21 officials or representatives of public officials to 22 stand up and introduce themselves. I know Carl is 23 here.
24 MR. KOEBEL: Carl Koebel, Ottawa 25 County Commissioner.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
23 1 MR. GROBE: If you didn't hear 2 that, it's one of your Ottawa County Commissioners.
3 Are there any other elected officials or 4 representatives of elected officials here today?
5 (No response).
6 Okay, good.
7 Carl, do you have any questions or comments 8 that you want to make?
9 MR. KOEBEL: Do you want me to 10 come up there?
11 MR. GROBE: Yes, please, come up 12 to the podium. If -- when you come up to the 13 podium, there's a pad of paper and -- I hope a pen, 14 are pens disappear. We have to keep stocking them, 15 sign in and then announce your name and then ask your 16 question and make your comment. We have the 17 transcriber down here, so you have to speak clearly 18 into the microphone.
19 MR. KOEBEL: Thank you, Jack.
20 My name is Carl Koebel, Ottawa County 21 Commissioner.
22 One thing, I would again like to thank the 23 NRC for establishing the oversight committee. I 24 believe it's very important and provides us the 25 assurance that when Davis-Besse restarts that not MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
24 1 only will the material and the hardware be correct, 2 but that the proper attitude will be established by 3 the industry, and I think that's extremely important.
4 One thing I do -- and, as I've said before, I 5 believe also, and I didn't hear it tonight, but I 6 have heard some indications of it in the past, I 7 believe strongly that the NRC's are the overseers of 8 this plant, have some role and some responsibility in 9 what occurred in allowing it to occur, and I hope 10 that as the plant oversees the way it will operate 11 that NRC also will oversee how it will operate.
12 Today, I've heard and maybe I was confused 13 tonight, I heard the plant today talk about doing 14 some additional recoating and some establishment of 15 some enlarged sump pump devices, and I thought I 16 heard in the presentation tonight from Mr. Dean that 17 it was kind of NRC was indicating that that this 18 needs to be done and it just seemed to me today it 19 was something that the plant said they found in their 20 investigation and were looking into it. I just 21 wanted a clarification on that.
22 MR. GROBE: You reminded me of a 23 couple things, Carl, thanks.
24 I do want to talk about the other activities 25 we have going on outside of Davis-Besse and I want to MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
25 1 talk a little bit about schedule.
2 Bill, do you want to give some more 3 information on -- in response to Carl's question, the 4 sump and the coatings?
5 By the way we use the word coatings, it's 6 paint, but it's a very special kind of paint, so we 7 call it a coating. The -- let me take a crack at 8 it.
9 MR. THOMAS: I'll do it.
10 MR. GROBE: Go ahead, Scott.
11 MR. THOMAS: Just a clarification 12 on the modification that the Licensee is intending to 13 do. It's not directly with the sump itself. It's 14 modification to the screens that filter fluids coming 15 from the containment basement area to the suctions of 16 the pumps that would pump the water back either to 17 the reactor or to -- well, to the reactor 18 post-accident to further cool the fuel in the 19 reactor, so the modification itself is an increase in 20 screen area for the emergency sumps, and it's not an 21 increase in size to the sumps themselves. Is that 22 what you were looking for?
23 MR. GROBE: In addition to that, I 24 think Carl was pointing out that this is an issue 25 that the Licensee has taken on. It wasn't an NRC MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
26 1 requirement, but they are substantialIJ 2 screens on the top of the containment 3 will give additional margin to safety 4 accident, and there is some material t 5 the cooling water. There is more sci 6 it out, so that's an improvement in tl 7 I wanted to -- I mentioned thý 8 0350 panel. We also have a lot of in!
9 wanted to touch on just briefly, but 10 that, other than Davis-Besse, the NRC 11 this issue for a number of years. We 12 at the site. In addition to that, we 13 or 50 inspectors in the regional offi(
14 from site to site and do inspections, 15 has been going on for a number of yea:
16 certainly had the opportunity to ideni 17 We only have two inspectors at the si 18 about 15 inspections a year. Each o:
19 inspections might last anywhere from 20 several weeks, so it's -- we have sub 21 resources than the Company does, but 22 look at ourselves, and to do that, th 23 Agency chartered what's referred to a 24 Learned Task Force. It's a group of 25 technical staff from around the agenc MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
27 1 have been associated with the Davis-Besse plant in 2 any substantive way, so they are independent of 3 Region 3, they are independent of the headquarter's 4 offices that deal with Davis-Besse on a regular 5 basis, and they are looking very broadly at a number 6 of the aspects of the Agency's operation; our 7 inspection program, our oversight program for 8 operating reactors, how we deal with what we call 9 generic issues, such issues that affect a number of 10 plants. Some of the information that was -- came 11 out in the early 1990's regarding this type of 12 cracking came from Europe. Reactors in France.
13 They're looking at how we deal with International 14 information, so you're looking at a very broad 15 spectrum of Agency activities and behaviors to make 16 sure that we're as good as we can be also, so I 17 appreciate those comments, Carl.
18 MR. DEAN: I have one addition.
19 MR. GROBE: (Indicating).
20 MR. DEAN: I have just one 21 addition to the feedback regarding the modifications 22 that the Licensee is making to the screens for their 23 sump.
24 As Jack noted, the Agency does have what we 25 call generic issues, issues that are pertinent or MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
28 1 applicable to a number of plants, not 2 two, and the Agency does have a generi 3 in its processes that we're looking at 4 capacity of sumps at plants like DaviE 5 being able to handle debris and thingE 6 the Licensee's efforts are -- as they 7 in anticipation of future guidance frc 8 relative to sumps, so they think they' 9 ahead of the Agency and getting ahead 10 in resolving that issue.
11 MR. GROBE: The otl 12 wanted to mention this afternoon, the 13 excuse me, FirstEnergy provided a sch(
14 that they believe is attainable. It 15 regime for our evaluation for restart 16 of November and then restarting in De(
17 to emphasis that the NRC is not drivei 18 any sort of schedule. If and when t]
19 ready for restart, based on our inspe(
20 evaluations, then we'll give it permif 21 restart. If it's not, it won't. It'l 22 the Licensee have a schedule, that ba:
23 work they've identified to date, they 24 that out and they believe late this y(
25 attainable schedule, and if they can MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
29 1 do it well, that's fine. If it takes 2 fine with us, too. Our focus is saf, 3 that this plant doesn't restart 'til 4 restart in a safe manner and operate 5 future.
6 We have a number of inspectio:
7 been a lot of interest in NRC observa 8 findings. We've had some inspection=
9 not a lot, quite frankly, because the:
10 to inspect yet. The Company is gett 11 now where they have a lot of activiti, 12 completed. We don't want to become ]
13 process where we inspect while they'r, 14 They need to complete work before we 15 Currently, we have five inspections gi 16 about, I'll estimate, 15 to 20 inspec, 17 various areas, systems, the adequacy, 18 adequacy of the equipment inside contý 19 adequacy of the Licensee's programs f 20 that work is done well, the adequacy 21 cause for human factors and organizat 22 and their corrective actions for thos, 23 so -- and, oh, the fifth one is -- ac 24 happening this evening. We have some 25 are looking at the preparation for we MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
30 1 containment vessel and that will be going on for the 2 next several days, so we're just now getting to the 3 point where there is things for us to inspect. We 4 have had a lot of inspectors out here that are going 5 to be in and out every week looking at various 6 activities. As we have results from those 7 inspections, we provide them to the Company, and 8 we'll discuss them publicly during our routine 9 meetings.
10 At this time, what I'd like to do is invite 11 anyone that has a question or comment that's from the 12 local community, and when I say local community, I'm 13 talking within the emergency planning zone, within 14 about 10 miles of the plant, so if there is any local 15 residents or folks that live in this area, I'd 16 encourage you if you have a question or comment to 17 come to microphone, and we'd be glad to answer your 18 questions.
19 If you don't feel comfortable coming forward, 20 you can jot a question down on a piece of paper and 21 slide it over to either Roland or Jan, and they can 22 bring it up and we can answer it that way, too.
23 Are there any questions or comments from 24 members of the local community around the plant?
25 MR. LENZ: My name is Tom Lenz.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
31 1 I live close to the plant and been here most of my 2 life. I've been reading the paper and coming to the 3 meetings and there was talk about fines against 4 Davis-Besse, and according to the news media and so 5 forth, this could equal up to a million dollars in 6 fines. Is this correct?
7 MR. GROBE: It's a -- it's a 8 actually very complicated question.
9 Bill, do you want to talk a little bit about 10 the ROP?
11 MR. DEAN: A number of years ago, 12 about three -- three or so years ago, the Agency 13 changed to some degree its approach in terms of how 14 it enforced its regulations relative to things like 15 civil penalties to Licensees. It was determined 16 looking at the history of enforcement and the types 17 of civil penalties that we levied that the civil 18 penalties in and of themselves do not serve as much 19 of a public deterrent as did the fact that the issues 20 were made public, that they were discussed in public 21 forum and the impact that that had on the Licensee in 22 other venues, financial market impacts and things 23 like that, and so in the assessment of how to go 24 about assessing Licensee performance and levying 25 fines and things like that, the Agency has taken an MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
32 1 approach that tries to focus on the safety 2 significance of the issue and give that a 3 characterization. Those of you that might have gone 4 to our website to look at individual plant 5 performance and go to Davis-Besse, we have a scheme 6 that takes inspection findings and characterizes 7 those inspection findings according to their safety 8 significance and assigns a color -- green, white, 9 yellow or red, depending on significance, and that's 10 an escalating scale, and depending on what the 11 significance of those findings are, that determines 12 what sort of regulatory response we might have.
13 Additional inspection is one thing, an order that 14 could be issued to the Licensee to do something 15 specific is a higher order type of enforcement 16 action, but the use of civil penalties is being 17 preserved for special circumstances. For example, 18 something that might be extremely egregious on the 19 part of the Licensee involving things like perhaps 20 willful behavior, and, for example, here at 21 Davis-Besse, you all may be aware that there are 22 certain investigations that are ongoing both on the 23 part of the NRC, as well as Congress has sponsored 24 some investigations. The Licensee has done their own 25 internal investigation that would be looking for MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
r w 33 1 elements like that that might involve what we would 2 call wrongdoing, and those types of activities still 3 have the capacity to have civil penalties assigned 4 depending on, for example, level of management that 5 might be involved, the degree of the willfulness, so 6 if you were to see a civil penalty or fine levied, it 7 would generally be within that context.
8 MR. GROBE: Bet you didn't think 9 you asked that kind of a complicated question, did 10 you?
11 MR. LENZ: Who ends up paying the 12 fine if there is one?
13 MR. GROBE: The Company pays the 14 fine. Of course, they are a company that is publicly 15 traded. They have stockholders and profits and 16 things like that, so it comes out of the Company.
17 As Bill indicated, it's unusual anymore for 18 us to issue fines. The only situation we would do 19 it would be if we do find that the behavior was 20 deliberate in violation or requirements, it wasn't 21 just simply an oversight or an error. We have 22 investigation ongoing to determine whether or not 23 there were behaviors on the part of individuals 24 involved in this that was not appropriate, and if we 25 do conclude that, then we will proceed in the process MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
34 1 of civil fines and different sorts of actions in -
2 MR. DEAN: Actual safety -
3 MR. GROBE: For deliberate 4 situations, oftentimes we also will take action 5 against the individual, and we're not a criminal 6 prosecutorial type organization, but we have the 7 capability and have in the past issued orders to 8 individuals barring them from working in the 9 industry, so those are the types of actions that we 10 would consider both for the Company and for any 11 individuals that may have behaved inappropriately, if 12 that were the case here at Davis-Besse.
13 If we do have a situation where there's a 14 deliberate violation for our requirements, we also 15 refer that matter to the Department of Justice who 16 does have criminal prosecutorial authority, and 17 deliberately violating our regulations is a crime and 18 has sanctions associated with it that include 19 potential fines, personal fines, so that's a very 20 serious matter. We don't get into that kind of 21 situation likely. We have investigators that do 22 thorough investigations, and that kind of thing is 23 ongoing right now.
24 TOM LENZ: I understand it helps 25 the news media sell their product when they can talk MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
35 1 about a million dollars worth ot tinef 2 does come down to that, the Company hý 3 fine, why isn't the people that creat(
4 pay the fine rather than the Company i 5 end up passing it off to me and the mý 6 people here, the consumer? We didn't 7 mistake. Why should we have to pay a 8 MR. GROBE: That'.
9 question. As I mentioned, if we had 10 involved deliberate violations, we woi 11 people accountable, but we also hold i 12 accountable. They're responsible fo:
13 their people behavior appropriately, 14 your point of view. I don't believe 15 direct connection between fining a cot 16 electric rates. I think there's a d:
17 between fines and profits. That's, 18 business that's outside of my area -
19 MR. STRASMA: Jack, 20 is that the fines are not -
21 MR. GROBE: Stand i 22 microphone. This is Jan Strasma.
23 MR. STRASMA: The fii 24 in a rate base, but rather it's taken 25 stockholder's equity. I think that's MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
36 1 uniform state to state, and that is f 2 penalties are not passed onto the rat 3 rather are taken out of stockholder's 4 MR. GROBE: Okay.
5 MR. LENZ: One ot 6 you're talking for the safety of the 7 about the workers and the hours they' 8 I'm friends with quite a few 9 out there, and I know some of them ha 10 hour shifts or more and six and seven 11 since September lth of last year.
12 safe working environment to have thes 13 those kind of hours for that length o 14 MR. GROBE: I'm no 15 areas your friends work in, but for a 16 related to safety activities, whether 17 maintenance work or a guard or an ope 18 restrictions on the number of hours t 19 work in a day, the number of hours th 20 several days, the number of hours the 21 a week, and those are specifically de 22 that the workers are fresh and not fa 23 know the Company is also sensitive to 24 think just recently provided several 25 everybody, but it is a difficult situ MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
37 1 Company, and it's going to take a lot of work to get 2 out of it, and that's why they have so many entry 3 workers on site.
4 MR. LENZ: Thank you.
5 MR. GROBE: Thank you. I'm eager 6 to have somebody else step up to the microphone.
7 Well -- Howard?
8 MR. WHITCOMB: I won't disappoint 9 you, Jack.
10 MR. GROBE: I missed your shirt 11 and tie, though.
12 MR. WHITCOMB: Good evening, members 13 of the panel. My name is Howard Whitcomb.
14 In follow-up to something you said earlier, 15 Mr. Grobe, as well as the gentleman who spoke before 16 me and the concerns being, perhaps, a little 17 different focus in his mind at least with the fines 18 and the passing on of the fines to the consumer.
19 I've been to a number of these meetings, I 20 don't know if I have been to every one, but nearly 21 every one if I haven't been to every one over the 22 last four months. The plant has been down for six 23 months.
24 Early on, there was an effort to produce 25 identification by the Licensee, by FirstEnergy, to MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
38 1 determine the problem areas, both har, 2 well as management-wise, and then set 3 implementation plan to correct those 4 believe they're involved or have been 5 the implementation plan now for about 6 Last month, Mel Holmberg of y, 7 reported to us that he had completed 8 during the month of essentially July 9 identified two violations. As I rec, 10 violations of the Federal law, one of 11 think they both had to do with a viol, 12 pending speed criterion, which is qua 13 violations, but, essentially, the fir 14 of adequate acceptance criteria in th 15 dictated the work performed at Davis-.
16 specifically, the VT-2 inspection, vi 17 inspections, and, secondly, the secon, 18 to do with use of unqualified personn 19 Now, the things that's troubl 20 is it took an NRC inspector to find t' 21 came at a time when the public would 22 the Licensee to be a little more caut 23 about who was doing the work in the f 24 procedures were being used. Mr. Holm 25 his experience, identified the proble MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
39 1 Today, FirstEnergy presented to us a 2 different scenario having to do with the polar crane, 3 and while I acknowledge and share with you, Mr.
4 Grobe, that the safety significance of the polar 5 crane perhaps is minimal in this particular 6 situation, the problem areas identified by the 7 Licensee, specifically the director of maintenance, 8 was a lack of post-maintenance testing -- adequate 9 post-maintenance testing criteria and the use of 10 questionably qualified personnel to perform the work.
11 Now, that comes about as a result of a senior level 12 manager in the plant finding a kind of a problem like 13 that, and he was not happy with what he saw and 14 stopped the work or made the polar crane unavailable.
15 Now, those actions are certainly good. The 16 problem with it is, five months into this shutdown, 17 we're still -- or FirstEnergy is still experiencing 18 problems that they shouldn't be experiencing.
19 More concerning to me, though, is that today 20 we heard the managers on stage from FirstEnergy 21 acknowledge that they were having -- experiencing 22 problems with contractor control; in other words, 23 there was approximately 1,300 contractors currently 24 on site, which were helping and assisting in the 25 activities there, but they were having trouble MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
40 1 controlling these people, and they cited a number of 2 different types of problems. They should not be 3 having those problems. They control who comes 4 through those gates. If those people who come 5 through those gates call themselves specialty 6 contractors, it is up to the Licensee to verify and 7 confirm that, in fact, they have those qualifications 8 and are competent to do the work. It's unacceptable 9 to let them through the gates, go out and do work and 10 later find out, well, gee, maybe -- maybe they aren't 11 qualified. Maybe the procedures that they're using 12 don't conform to what we expect the procedures to 13 conform to, or, I also heard that they had examples 14 of the contractors weren't even using site 15 procedures.
16 Now, in the nuclear industry, that's 17 unacceptable, and, certainly, in light of what has 18 happened at Davis-Besse with the degraded reactor 19 vessel head, it would appear that due prudence would 20 dictate a more cautious approach to current work 21 activities at the site. This blind reliance on 22 specialty contractors, this inability to control the 23 contractor work force is troubling, and when the 24 lowest levels of the work force and the lowest level 25 of supervisors are not there to provide the checks MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
41 1 and balances, which are expected, and we're relying 2 on senior level managers to find the problems, both 3 from the NRC, as well as FirstEnergy, it gives one 4 pause to consider that maybe the root cause of what 5 had transpired in the time frame up until March of 6 this year has not been identified, has not been 7 addressed and the same superficial maintenance 8 practices that existed prior to March of this year 9 still exist today.
10 Now, I understand there's a meeting tomorrow 11 that's going to address the management issues, but 12 what we saw today was a very aggressive, hardware 13 related fix to a problem, and we're talking Mode 1 in 14 early December and there has been absolutely no 15 demonstration whatsoever that these people have 16 corrected the issues that brought the plant down in 17 the first place.
18 What is the NRC's position in view of what 19 has transpired over the last six weeks?
20 MS. LIPA: Well, let me try to tackle 21 that. You made a lot of comments, and I agree with 22 most of them. Let me just point out a couple if 23 things to put them in perspective.
24 The things you talked about with the 25 contractors and Mel's findings, those are all true, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
42 1 and then we talked a lot about the polar crane today, 2 and I think you understand exactly why we're asking 3 so many questions about the polar crane to find out 4 what they did, what they knew about it, why it was 5 occurring and why it wasn't detected by somebody 6 else.
7 I'm not sure, though, that I heard the same 8 thing about examples of contractors not using site 9 procedures, I'm not sure I heard that.
10 The other thing I wanted to put in 11 perspective, the inability to control contractors.
12 There's a way of saying that that can be 13 misconstrued, and what we're talking about here is 14 they bring contractors in, they go through a training 15 program, they have levels of oversight and 16 supervision, and what we talked about today was in 17 one case, specifically the polar crane, and also the 18 example you used of Mel Holmberg's, there were some 19 examples where the contractors were not doing exactly 20 what Licensee management wanted them to do, so it's 21 not like the contractors are out of control. They do 22 have to get to this issue of supervising some of the 23 contractors.
24 The other thing about a blind reliance on 25 specialty contractors, again, the Licensee brings in MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
43 1 contractors for specific purposes. They go through 2 training, and they are also supposed to have 3 oversight, so there is an oversight problem that the 4 Licensee needs to address.
5 I did want to point out to you that we have 6 an inspection that started last week. It's called a 7 Management and Human Performance Inspection, and that 8 inspection is looking closely at the Licensee's root 9 cause assessment, what they came up with for all 10 those root causes that we talked about at the August 11 15th meeting and what their plans are to do about it, 12 so we've addressed it in these meetings, but the 13 Panel's ability to fully assess what the Licensee is 14 doing is a combination of what we talked about in 15 meetings and what the inspectors find out in the 16 field looking at the data, so I wanted to make sure 17 you were aware of that, and that's all I have on that 18 issue unless you had any other -
19 MR. GROBE: Let me -- Howard, 20 just let me provide a little bit more perspective.
21 This may not sound like it and I'm certainly 22 not trying to defend the Licensee, but this is an 23 improvement. It's very clear based on this one 24 example that the root cause that contributed to the 25 head degradation also contributed to what happened MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
44 1 with the polar crane, and those issues are worker's 2 standards, supervision, priorities, and focus on 3 safety. Those issues were missing from the work on 4 the polar crane, and that's why I chose to dwell on 5 that a little bit this afternoon and dive into that 6 because I wanted to make sure that I fully understood 7 it, that the Company fully understood our view of 8 that, and I think you took many of your remarks from 9 the remarks we made this afternoon. This one issue, 10 this activity was a clear indicator that they haven't 11 fixed all the problems and all the nooks and crannies 12 of the organization. You see that Mel's inspection 13 report which was issued this past week and if you 14 read that report closely, you'll find that many of 15 the activities that he inspected were well performed.
16 Some of the inspectors that didn't meet the 17 qualification and training requirements that the 18 Licensee had put into their procedures had performed 19 inspections of readequate inspections. The 20 Company's response to that was not the same response 21 that you may have seen a few years ago based on what 22 we know now about Company priorities. The Company's 23 response was to stop that entire job, to bring in a 24 whole new set of inspectors, to raise their training 25 standards, not only do the new inspectors meet the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
45 1 standards that existed before, but they were even 2 higher standards and to make sure that that work was 3 all completely reperformed, and they're just now 4 completing the re-inspections of those areas, so I 5 don't want to leave the impression that all the work 6 that's being done at Davis-Besse is being done 7 poorly. I also don't want to leave the impression 8 that we have any belief that the problems have been 9 fixed. The corrective action program that the 10 Company is going to present to us tomorrow are the 11 actions that they believe are going to address these 12 issues. The difference now is the senior managers 13 are out in the plant reinforcing standards, stopping 14 work when it doesn't meet their standards, and they 15 have a set of standards that are much higher than 16 what existed prior to the shutdown, so it's kind of a 17 good news/bad news situation. It's clear that there 18 is still a lot of work to be done.
19 Did you have another question?
20 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, yes, a 21 follow-up. I heard Mr. Mendiola ask today, and I 22 think he asked Mr. Stevens whether the crane was 23 acceptable or met minimum standards, and what I heard 24 today was "I think" or "I believe" that it would, and 25 I'm troubled by that because here we have a major MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
-7 46 1 evolution where we're moving the old reactor vessel 2 head out and the new reactor vessel head in, and I 3 would have thought that the director of maintenance 4 would have made absolutely sure that that crane was 5 minimally acceptable, and to use words like "I 6 believe" or "I think", I find troubling.
7 You have mentioned, Mr. Grobe, first line 8 supervision and paying attention to the problems at 9 the lowest grass roots level. I haven't seen any 10 effort on the part of the Licensee to address that 11 specific issue and that is troubling. We're still 12 finding levels at the highest organizational 13 management and that is -- that is not the way that 14 these plants are going to be successful. We're 15 talking about safety of the public. We're talking in 16 addition to financial obligations. Obviously this is 17 a very expensive endeavor for FirstEnergy and a lot 18 of that will be passed on in terms of rate increases 19 eventually, so the consumers are going to pay down 20 the road, but what we want is to ensure and you've 21 asked for public confidence, and we want you to 22 ensure you're asking the tough and the right 23 questions and ensuring that they're doing what they 24 need to be doing.
25 MR. GROBE: I think that's what MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
47 1 you heard this arternoon. +/- want to 2 it's very clear that the problems arer 3 That doesn't mean that actions haven't 4 and things aren't moving in the right 5 are finding that there's work that's 1 6 well. We're also finding problems, 7 number of inspectors that are on site 8 be getting additional insights into t) 9 Company is also finding problems, and 10 addressing them as they find them, an(
11 is a bit uncomfortable because I don'l 12 FirstEnergy by any stretch of the imac 13 since you're asking questions regardii 14 doing and what -- in response to our (
15 afternoon, what they indicated was thi 16 the job, that they had what was refer:
17 stand down. What that means is they 18 They brought all their project manage:
19 explained to them this is what happeni 20 job, there is why it's unacceptable, 1 21 doesn't meet their standards, their m; 22 standards, and I want to make sure al 23 managers that are supervising all the, 24 jobs on site understand that this was:
25 and we have to do better across the b, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
48 1 are the kinds of actions that we give the change, the 2 organization, make sure that the work is done 3 correctly.
4 In addition to that, there's a number of 5 checks and balances. In the case of the polar crane, 6 many of them didn't work, but we're going to be out 7 there inspecting and with people just like Mel 8 Holmberg, and we had a lot from the regional office 9 in areas where we don't have expertise, we're getting 10 contractors to help us, and we'll do a good job, and 11 I appreciate you coming to all these meetings because 12 you always give good perspective. You can continue 13 watching and listening to our findings.
14 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, I have -
15 MR. GROBE: The plant won't 16 restart until these issues are addressed to our 17 satisfaction.
18 MR. WHITCOMB: I have one quick 19 question. This afternoon Mr. Price alluded to the 20 hiring of an outside person, expert, to be part of 21 the restart committee.
22 Do you know the name of that individual?
23 MR. GROBE: I'm not sure which 24 committee and which person -- there's several 25 different oversight activities that they have.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
49 1 MR. WHITCOMB: It's a restart 2 committee that mentioned specifically.
3 MR. GROBE: Let me just talk 4 about the different committees. There is one that's 5 called the Restart Oversight Panel, and that reports 6 to the President of FirstEnergy, Bob Saunders, and 7 that is comprised almost entirely of outside 8 individuals. The -- including a former NRC senior 9 managers, former industry senior managers, your 10 County Administrator is on that committee, Jere Witt, 11 so it's a very brought spectrum of having capable 12 people.
13 There's another oversight board. It called 14 the Engineering Assurance Board, and that includes a 15 number of outside individuals.
16 There's a Corrective Actions Review Board.
17 There's a number of different boards that 18 have been put in place and they've utilized both 19 inside expertise, FirstEnergy expertise from 20 Davis-Besse and from their other facilities, Perry, 21 Beaver Valley, as well as outside expertise to 22 provide balance and breath to the reviews that are 23 being done, so I'm not sure exactly which Board 24 you're talking about, so I don't know what person it 25 might have been, but -
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
50 1 MR. WHITCOMB: It's a restart 2 committee -
3 MR. GROBE: Well, the Restart 4 Oversight Panel is always entirely outside. It's 5 people from -- instituted nuclear power operations, 6 private contractors, people from other utilities, so 7 it's -- with the exception of Bob Saunders, who's the 8 President; Gary Leidich, who is the Executive Vice 9 President; Bill Pearce, who is Vice President of 10 Quality and Lew Myers, they also have attended all of 11 these meetings for us. The rest of the panel is 12 from outside, so I'm not sure -
13 MR. WHITCOMB: The discussion this 14 afternoon then was with Clark Price, then you don't 15 know who he was referring to?
16 MR. GROBE: I just don't recall 17 which panel he was talking about.
18 Do you have any other questions?
19 MR. WHITCOMB: The second question 20 was, it was the Reactor Restart Committee Panel?
21 The oversight committee, Restart Oversight Committee 22 Panel, so you don't know the answer?
23 MR. GROBE: That's correct.
24 MR. WHITCOMB: All right. Thank you.
25 MR. GROBE: Thank you.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
51 1 Any other members of the local community here 2 that have questions or comments?
3 (No response).
4 Okay, I'd like to now move onto anybody else 5 from the public, and if you're from the local 6 community, you can still come up, but if there are 7 any other members of the public that have a question 8 or comment, I'd be glad to entertain those.
9 MR. LOCHBAUM: Good evening. My name 10 is Dave Lochbaum. I'm with the Union of Concerned 11 Scientist in Washington, D.C. I want to follow-up 12 on some of the issues that Howard raised.
13 Jack, as you said we're here today because of 14 some organizational problems that FirstEnergy had 15 that manifested themselves with some equipment 16 problems of an unprecedented nature.
17 I spent a good portion of last week looking 18 at the inspection reports that the NRC issued prior 19 to March of this year and some self-assessments that 20 the Company had done in about three years prior to 21 this year, and both of those -- both sets of 22 documents basically looked at how the plant was 23 doing, including some of the equipment conditions 24 that we're talking about tonight and basically gave 25 the Company very high marks and concluded that they MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
52 1 had a good safety focus. I think that shows among 2 other things the benefit of hindsight. Now that the 3 event occurred, you go back and look at the same 4 data, in hindsight, and the conclusion is a little 5 bit different in that the Company put production 6 ahead of safety.
7 With that in mind, you're now looking at how 8 the organization is changing to address some of these 9 organizational problems to evaluate whether they are 10 effective or not. I guess the concern we have is 11 that we know the Lessons Learned Task Force is doing 12 work and at some point will make recommendations -
13 potentially make some recommendations of how the NRC 14 needs to change what it does, how it does it, but 15 until that point, the NRC is going to use the same 16 processes and the same methods that weren't 17 successful in the past.
18 Why would you think they would be successful 19 now if they didn't work in the past?
20 We would think that it's pivotal to have the 21 Lessons Learned Task Force make recommendations, the 22 NRC change its processes so when it goes in and 23 evaluates these organizational changes, you don't 24 simply recognize that this is not what was there 25 before, but this is actually effective and it looks MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
53 1 like without having made any changes to what you do 2 or how you do it, you don't have much of a chance of 3 doing that.
4 Would you agree or disagree with any of that?
5 MR. DEAN: Yeah, let me -
6 MR. GROBE: Let Bill start.
7 MR. DEAN: Let me take the first 8 shot at that. If what you're referring to is the 9 routine oversight process that we use to monitor 10 performance at Davis-Besse, clearly what we're doing 11 now is not routine oversight, so I would offer to you 12 that since that day in March when the issue emerged 13 and we sent an augmented inspection team and elevated 14 the regulatory approach at Davis-Besse, put the 0350 15 panel in place, so on, so forth, we're not operating 16 the same operational mode that we did in the prior 17 years, so we're not the same process.
18 Your question about lessons learned, what 19 lessons learned will we have and will we implement, 20 if you're talking about oversight at over nuclear 21 power plants, I'm not sure if that's the drift that 22 your getting at to -
23 MR. LOCHBAUM: No. It takes a 24 portion of Davis-Besse restarts, and a problem 25 develops, you know, they haven't fixed the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
54 1 organizational problems that caused this one, you're 2 the public's guardian.
3 MR. DEAN: Right.
4 MR. LOCHBAUM: And if you don't 5 change your processes before the plant restarts, 6 we're going to have deja vue all over again, and 7 that's not fair to anybody.
8 MR. DEAN: Yeah. Looking at the 9 Lessons Learned Task Force and the recommendations 10 that they're going to make, and it's our expectation 11 within the next week or two, that they'll have the 12 report and share it with us and provide the lessons 13 learned and their recommendations. I'm pretty sure 14 that you will see the NRC respond pretty promptly in 15 terms of taking those lessons learned and making 16 appropriate adjustments to our process as warranted.
17 I would offer from my own perspective if 18 there's an area where we as an Agency might have 19 failed or dropped the ball relative to what 20 transpired at Davis-Besse, I think you might find it 21 in the world of operational experience and taking 22 insights that we gain from operational experience, 23 either from other countries or past history and 24 insuring somehow that we continue to monitor Licensee 25 activities put in place as a result of operating MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
55 1 experience, for example, in the past we issued a 2 generic letter back in 1988 about boric acid 3 corrosion, and how virulent that can be as a 4 corrosive mechanism, and a Licensee should put in 5 place a boric acid corrosion control programs, and, 6 shortly thereafter, we went and did inspections at a 7 number of plants to see what Licensees were doing in 8 response to that generic letter and assured ourselves 9 that, in general, Licensees were taking the 10 appropriate corrective actions and putting in a 11 process in place that give us some confidence and in 12 the future that would continue to monitor their 13 systems for evidence of boric acid corrosion and make 14 sure that it didn't get to the point that it did here 15 at Davis-Besse.
16 Clearly, we didn't maintain our eye on the 17 ball over this ensuing one or two decades and an 18 important element of the NRC regulatory oversight 19 regime is that we rely on the Licensees to operate 20 their plant safely. We can't be everywhere at all 21 times and we have to pick and choose where it is we 22 devote our resources. I think maybe the lesson 23 learned here is that we have to be cautious in making 24 the determination that once we do some additional 25 evaluation -- okay, the industry has this under MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
56 1 control, let's move onto the next issi 2 coming back periodically to assure ou:
3 you know, my own personal perspective 4 probably the major lesson learned frol 5 perspective.
6 I don't know, Jack, do you ha 7 MR. GROBE: We're 8 speculating on what might be the find 9 Lessons Learned Task Force, but that 10 was going to bring up also. That re, 11 have anything to do with Davis-Besse.
12 The 0350 panel, this oversigh 13 responsibilities; one is to make sure 14 bring forward a recommendation for re 15 plant is ready to restart in a safe m, 16 second one is that after restart, tha 17 demonstrates that the issues are fixe, 18 long-term. This panel doesn't disapi 19 We will provide oversight of licensin, 20 activities to make sure that appropri, 21 taken, that if the plant gets to a pe 22 where it's safe to restart, then we w 23 to our management that the plant be a 24 restart. After restart, we will con 25 enhanced inspection program at Davis MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
57 1 panel will continue to meet and will (
2 out here publicly reviewing performan(
3 make very good points, David, about tl 4 the Lessons Learned Task Force, but it 5 limited relevance to restart at Davis 6 we're going to be here well after rest 7 we're convinced that the Licensee is (
8 safe performance and that the problem.
9 recurring, then we'll make recommendat 10 management that the panel be disbande(
11 plant be put back under the routine ol 12 program, so we're looking forward -
13 what the Lessons Learned Task Force hý 14 and we're looking forward to getting I 15 late this month, and we'll respond to 16 respect to the inspection programs.
17 other facilities.
18 MR. LOCHBAUM: I appr(
19 answer, but I guess I would, I'm not 20 much comfort in it, in that I think t]
21 link between that activity and the 03!
22 you look at the NRC's scoreboard for ]
23 February 15th of this year, it was al1 24 were comfortable with the safety leve' 25 performance of this plant on February MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
58 1 the inspection program and the inspection procedures 2 that you're now using to determine whether they fixed 3 those problems, the problems that you didn't have any 4 clue were there, and it just seems a little bit faith 5 rather than fact, or that you can prove that the 6 problems that you didn't know existed have been 7 fixed.
8 MR. GROBE: I guess the message I 9 would like to leave with you and others here 10 listening is that the oversight program at 11 Davis-Besse is nowhere near routine, and I think Bill 12 emphasized that. We're going to be here, both Bill 13 and I have extensive experience, as well as the rest 14 of the team, and we're going to keep our eye on the 15 ball. I think he's coached baseball once or twice 16 lately.
17 MR. DEAN: Softball.
18 MR. GROBE: And we won't -
19 airballs, how's that? We'll make sure that the NRC's 20 oversight program at Davis-Besse is robust and 21 sufficient to make sure that the plant has fixed 22 these problems completely, and I am confident that 23 the Agency will respond to any issues brought forward 24 by the Lessons Learned Task Force and address those 25 as well. I expect a lot of findings from the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
59 1 Lessons Learned Task Force and a lot of opportunities 2 to improve.
3 The other thing I'd like to point out is that 4 our routine inspection programs -- well, let me step 5 back.
6 It was not a good day the day that I had the 7 AITites in the morning and explained to the public 8 and to the Company the extent and nature of our 9 findings -- from our Augmented Inspection Team, I 10 apologize for talking in acronyms -- and then in the 11 afternoon we had our annual meeting to present to the 12 public the results of our inspections over the last 13 year and those inspections indicated that things were 14 going well. That was not a good day for me and -
15 nor for anybody in the Agency, and the Lessons 16 Learned Task Force is going to help us from having 17 repeat that kind of situation.
18 The other thing I'd comment on is the 19 inspection programs, focus of the industry over the 20 past 10 to 15 years has resulted in substantially 21 improved performance obviously not at Davis-Besse, 22 but across the Board, and so I don't want to be 23 condemning the inspection program necessarily for 24 activities that we haven't fully reviewed yet. We 25 still have our investigation ongoing, so it's not MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
60 1 clear yet completely what went on here, and we'll fix 2 the inspection program.
3 MR. DEAN: I'm sorry, can I offer 4 one other insight, though, David, because I think you 5 make a valid point, and I have -- I mean, I have been 6 involved with a number of plants, and I know you have 7 observed and been involved, too, in plants that have 8 had degraded performance, and, you know, the 9 interesting thing about Davis-Besse is it doesn't fit 10 the pattern that we've seen in the past like at 11 Millstone or Indian Point or D.C. Cook, you know, 12 where you have examples that occur over time with 13 problems with equipment or problems with performance 14 or issues of harassment or intimidation, things like 15 that. The issue here at Davis-Besse, you know, 16 really, you're on February 15th, we wouldn't have 17 predicted that. We wouldn't have predicted all of 18 the underlying things that have emerged from root 19 caught analyses, and augmented inspection team, 20 inspections, and things like that. An issue like 21 safety culture, which I think everybody kind of 22 points to as a root cause, is something that doesn't 23 cause changes overnight in performance. Just like 24 addressing safety culture, you're not going to see a 25 dramatic change in performance like an on/off switch, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
61 1 and it's my expectation we're going t(
2 come up with issues much like the poli 3 that we talked to Howard about and ta:
4 Licensee about, and so we have to loo}
5 terms of how does the Licensee react t 6 that when they are discovered, and is 7 discovering those issues themselves ai 8 discovering those issues, so one of t]
9 that I have on this in terms of Davis 10 was the program up to February 16th ii 11 was a plant that was operating pretty 12 know, in some respects, you know, thi!
13 degradation may very well be the tip (
14 It may have been the beginning of a s(
15 much like we had at Millstone or Saler 16 ongoing performance issues and maybe I 17 first one.
18 MR. LOCHBAUM: Other I 19 1999 and 2000, this was the first one' 20 MR. DEAN: Well, 21 MR. LOCHBAUM: There 22 the past that were overlooked, so thal 23 this was the first one, unless you igi 24 ones that happened in the past that a:
25 the root cause report, so I don't thii MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
62 1 this is the first one unless a very liberal 2 interpretation of what counts and what doesn't count.
3 MR. DEAN: Well, I'm talking 4 about the first one that had had -
5 MR. LOCHBAUM: This year?
6 MR. DEAN: Well, that had this 7 level --
8 MR. GROBE: Let's be clear.
9 MR. LOCHBAUM: Since nothing has ever 10 approached this level -
11 MR. GROBE: Sure.
12 MR. LOCHBAUM: -- so this is the 13 first one, I'll stipulate to that.
14 MR. GROBE: It's important -
15 there's a lot of people here that don't appreciate 16 maybe that we work together all the time and -
17 MR. LOCHBAUM: All too often.
18 MR. GROBE: -- we talk about 19 these issues all the time, and they don't understand 20 what you're talking about.
21 The Company had a boric acid corrosion 22 problem in 1999, okay, it had to do with the valve, 23 and the NRC was under its old enforcement policy and 24 they issued a finding and the Company took extensive 25 corrective actions, and those corrective actions MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
63 1 clearly were ineffective. Those corrective actions 2 included extensive training on the effects of boric 3 acid, how to inspect for it, and the people that were 4 involved in inspecting the head attended that 5 training. We're still trying to figure out through 6 our investigation process how it came to be that 7 there is boric acid corrosion in the head, so those 8 issues, the Company responded to, the NRC responded 9 to. The Company's response was ineffective.
10 Possibly that's another lesson learned that the 11 Lessons Learned Task Force will come up with and that 12 is an additional focus, accurate significant 13 enforcement action like that on follow-up inspection.
14 I don't know what the LLTF is going to come up with.
15 MR. LOCHBAUM: Also, I don't want 16 to leave the impression -- Jack, you and I have 17 worked together on the 350 panel -- 0350 panel for 18 D.C. Cook. I'm glad the 0350 panel is there. I 19 think it's a very positive thing, so I don't mean to 20 say that this is a waste of effort. I don't mean to 21 imply that 'cause I don't think that, and I'm glad 22 it's there.
23 I guess the only point I was trying to make 24 is, you know, I sat here this afternoon and listened 25 as the Company listed or reviewed literally hundreds MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
64 1 of things they're going to do before this plant 2 restarts.
3 There is not a single thing that you've 4 identified that you're going to do before this plant 5 restarts to fix the problems that led to you not 6 discovering them earlier? That just -
7 MR. GROBE: Well, if you wait two 8 more weeks for these things -
9 MR. LOCHBAUM: -- if you balance 10 these things -
11 MR. GROBE: If you wait two more 12 weeks, the Lessons Learned Task Force report is 13 supposed to be issued at the end of the month, so 14 we'll find out what we're going to do.
15 MR. LOCHBAUM: Those would be just 16 recommendations. There is no guarantee that those 17 will be done before this plant restarts or not.
18 MR. GROBE: I can assure you that 19 those recommendations will go to the person that 20 heads our agency. He's called the Executive 21 Director, and he will take them very seriously, and 22 I'm certain that there will be recommendations and 23 many aspects of the Agency operation that will be 24 acted upon.
25 MR. LOCHBAUM: As I recall the draft MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
65 1 order shut down Davis-Besse to do the inspection last 2 year also with the same individual, and it didn't 3 happen. Is that not correct?
4 MR. GROBE: I'm not sure I 5 understood your question. There was -
6 MR. LOCHBAUM: The draft order that 7 was issued last year to shut this plant down by 8 December 31st of last year went to that same 9 individual and no action was taken, so are we going 10 to get a little different response this time, do you 11 think?
12 MR. GROBE: You can watch.
13 MR. LOCHBAUM: We will.
14 MR. GROBE: There will be a public 15 presentation.
16 MR. LOCHBAUM: I guess the last 17 question I had, had to do with one of the reasons why 18 this problem may have gone on for as long as it did.
19 Federal safety regulations and the plant's 20 operating license don't allow any reactor coolant 21 pressure boundary leakage and yet this plant operated 22 for many months, if not years, in that very 23 condition.
24 The plant's operating license required once 25 that condition existed -- or was detected MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
1 technically, required it to be shut down within six 2 hours, and that never happened, at least not in time.
3 What's going to be done to ensure that if 4 there is reactor coolant pressure boundary after 5 restart that the plant complies with safety 6 regulations rather than wait 'til its next refueling 7 outage when it might -- might just be discovered?
8 MR. GROBE: It's an interesting 9 and complicating question which you knew when you 10 asked it -
11 MR. LOCHBAUM: That's not lawyer 12 quest. I don't know the answer.
13 MR. GROBE: There's a number of 14 different ways in which the reactor is operating 15 there could be leakage, and leakage is permitted at 16 certain levels. What's referred to as identified 17 leakage, which means there might be a valve leaking, 18 the Company doesn't know it's leaking, but they 19 detect some leakage. They go in and do some 20 inspections and see that it's a valve that's leaking.
21 Identified leakage could be permitted up to, I 22 believe it's 10 gallons per minute at Davis-Besse's 23 license.
24 There is another category, which is known as 25 unidentified leakage, which is you can't identify the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
67 1 source of the leakage, that that is permitted to 2 occur up to one gallon per minute.
3 There is another category of leakage.
4 Normally all of that types of leakage is through 5 bolted connections where a flange is bolted on or a 6 valve is bolted to a pipe, or a seal in a pump, or 7 what is referred to as a packing, which is a seal on 8 a valve stem.
9 There's another kind of leakage, which is 10 called pressure boundary leakage, and that's leakage 11 through cracks and metal. That's not permitted at 12 all, as David correctly indicated. If there is any 13 pressure boundary leakage identified, that the plant 14 has to be shut down within six hours. The problem 15 here is that the Company did inspections inside 16 containment. When the unidentified leakage rate went 17 up, could not identify the source of the leakage.
18 There is many areas of the plant when the plant is 19 operating that cannot be inspected, and that's 20 somewhat of a dilemma. Unidentified leakage is 21 permitted up to one gallon per minute. The Company 22 never exceeded that. Pressure boundary leakage is 23 not permitted. The Catch-22 here is that 24 unidentified leakage could be pressure boundary 25 leakage. In this case it was, and I'm sure the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
68 1 Lessons Learned Task Force is looking at that also.
2 MR. LOCHBAUM: I guess the point 3 would be -
4 MR. GROBE: Whether or not how our 5 different technical specifications mesh with each 6 other and whether or not there is sufficient guidance 7 in that area.
8 MR. LOCHBAUM: Well, how does that 9 affect the restart of Davis-Besse if that tech 10 spec -- had it been enforced and complied wouldn't 11 have allowed this condition to get as bad as it was, 12 so how -
13 MR. GROBE: I'm confident that had 14 the Licensee known that this was pressure boundary 15 leakage that they would have shut down the plant in 16 accordance with their tech specs. They were 17 operating in accordance with their tech specs as they 18 knew with the information they had, and we were aware 19 of the leakage.
20 MR. LOCHBAUM: Not exactly because 21 GDC -- General Design Criteria 30 of the Federal 22 Regulations require monitoring of reactor coolant 23 pressure boundary leakage. This Company was not 24 doing any monitoring. To say it's to the extent 25 practical, they didn't put a camera in. They didn't MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
69 1 put leak detection devices in. They 2 anything. To say that they were comp 3 spec is a little bit gratuitous.
4 MR. GROBE: We co 5 for quite a while, and I'm not sure t 6 benefitting other folks in the audien 7 to talk to you afterwards about this.
8 of a challenge with respect to interp 9 technical specifications when you hay 10 leakage, and I think we'll leave it t.
11 unidentified leakage is permitted, an 12 Davis-Besse knew, and we were aware o 13 unidentified leakage rate, they were 14 their technical specifications for op 15 requirements.
16 MR. LOCHBAUM: They t.
17 were.
18 MR. GROBE: Yeah.
19 MR. LOCHBAUM: Both y, 20 wrong.
21 MR. GROBE: That's 22 MR. LOCHBAUM: And th, 23 placed at undue risk because you and 24 so all we're asking is try not to be 25 future, take some actions to prevent MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
70 1 That's all. Thanks.
2 MR. GROBE: Thank you, David.
3 Any there any other questions or comments?
4 (Indicating).
5 MR. GROBE: Yes, ma'am.
6 MISS RYDER: My name is Amy Ryder, 7 I'm with Ohio Citizen Action. I have a question.
8 How confident are each of you that 9 FirstEnergy will reach their goal of restarting the 10 plant by December 7th?
11 MR. GROBE: I think I already 12 answered that. We're not bound by schedules.
13 One of the milestones that FirstEnergy has on 14 their schedule is at what point in time they think 15 the NRC will be approving restart.
16 MISS RYDER: Right.
17 MR. GROBE: And that's necessary 18 for them to have a schedule because we have to 19 approve restart, but we're not bound by schedule, and 20 I have no basis to express confidence or lack of 21 confidence in their schedule. They believe it's 22 attainable, and we'll do our inspections, and they 23 will do their work, and we'll see.
24 MISS RYDER: Well, here's what 25 worries me is that the Utility thinks that they will MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
71 1 be ready in a few months to restart the plant, and, 2 you know, you keep saying that the problems clearly 3 are not fixed, and we're not going to let them 4 restart until those problems are fixed, but I don't 5 necessarily see it that the problems aren't fixed 6 that they continue to make the same problems -- or 7 the same mistakes over and over again, and at a time 8 when the eyes of the country are on this country you 9 would expect that they would be on their best 10 behavior and if what we're seeing now is their best 11 behavior, I don't see how this Company is qualified 12 to continue to operate this plant. I'm not 13 comfortable with the phrase, "when they restart the 14 plant." I don't think we've gotten past whether or 15 not they should be allowed to restart this plant.
16 MR. GROBE: Well, I don't think 17 you've heard anybody in the NRC talk about when they 18 are going to restart. They won't restart until 19 we're satisfied that they have met corrective actions 20 to fix the problems, and there have still been 21 examples of situations where those same causal 22 factors have resulted in additional problem as we 23 discussed this afternoon.
24 As Bill indicated -- I think it was Bill a 25 few minutes ago, the kinds of issues that Davis-Besse MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
72 1 is dealing with are not the easy, str 2 kinds of issues. We have a piece of 3 that's broken, and we need to replace 4 MISS RYDER: Right.
5 MR. GROBE: They a 6 organizations, they are changing the 7 work, and those are difficult things 8 they take time, so -- how much time i 9 project.
10 What I can tell you is that w 11 monitoring what they're doing and mak 12 have these issues fixed before they r 13 MISS RYDER: But th 14 they think they will be ready in thre, 15 me that they are not thinking realist 16 solving the problem.
17 MR. GROBE: You'll 18 that up with them, and come to our me, 19 know you do.
20 MISS RYDER: You sh, 21 up on the stage during public comment 22 take it up with them.
23 MR. GROBE: I'm so:
24 hear you.
25 MISS RYDER: If you MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
73 1 on the stage during public comment, I would take it 2 up with them.
3 MR. GROBE: The purpose of these 4 interfaces are for you to ask us questions. We work 5 for you. We represent you, and for you to provide 6 your comments and thoughts to us. You certainly can 7 write to the Company -
8 MISS RYDER: I know.
9 MR. GROBE: -- call the Company, 10 and suspect you do, and they will answer your 11 questions as they see fit.
12 MISS RYDER: Thank you.
13 MR. GROBE: Interested in other 14 questions or comments?
15 (No response).
16 Okay, well, I thank you for coming this 17 evening. I would ask you to fill out the feedback 18 forms, especially those of you that have come for the 19 first time.
20 The -- we get fresh insights from you, so 21 please take a few moments to fill out a feedback 22 form, fold it up, drop it in the mail, and you'll 23 help us get better.
24 I also want to recognize Oak Harbor High 25 School, and, particularly, Mr. Stucker.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
74 1 Waive your hand up there, Mr.
2 MR. STUCKER: (Indic 3 MR. GROBE: He's j 4 incredible guy to prepare this school 5 THEREUPON, the audience appla 6 MR. GROBE: -- and 7 outstanding job supporting these meet 8 real commitment to the community that 9 willing to open up their doors for us 10 appreciate it. It's, I think, a very 11 setting.
12 MR. DEAN: (Indic 13 Christine's got a comment.
14 MR. GROBE: Any ot 15 comments before Christine's got a com 16 (No response).
17 MS. LIPA: Yeah, 18 remind everybody that we print a mont:
19 that Jack referred to, and in the las 20 has the phone numbers for our Public 21 so if you read this and have question 22 use those phone numbers and give us a 23 know, we try to answer your questions 24 we're all about here, so take us up o:
25 you.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
_MM 75 MR. GROBE: Thank you very much 2 for coming.
3 4
5 6 THEREUPON, the hearing was adjourned.
7 8
9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
76 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF OHIO ss.
3 COUNTY OF HURON 4
I, Marlene S. Rogers-Lewis, Stenotype Reporter 5 and Notary Public, within and for the State aforesaid, duly commissioned and qualified, do hereby 6 certify that the foregoing, consisting of 75 pages, was taken by me in stenotype and was reduced to 7 writing by me by means of Computer-Aided Transcription; that the foregoing is a true and 8 complete transcript of the proceedings held in that room on the 17th day of September, 2002 before the 9 Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
I also further certify that I was present in 10 the room during all of the proceedings.
11 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set
- ',my hand 12 and ea of\ Qffice at Wakeman, Ohio this _ day of
\'X \, 2002.
13 14 15 Marlene S. Ro e4 Lewis Notary Public 16 3922 Court Road Wakeman, OH 44889 17 My commission expires 4/29/04 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900