ML22230A063
| ML22230A063 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 01/23/1978 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| References | |
| Tran-M780123 | |
| Download: ML22230A063 (61) | |
Text
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
- TO SECRETARIAT RECORl)S
IN THE MATTER OF:
COMMISSION MEETING
BRIEFING ON
DECOMMISSIONING
Pl ace - Washington, D. C.
Date - Monday, 23 January 1978 Pages 1 - 58
Telephone :
( 202) 3.47-3700
ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
Official Reporters
444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001
NATlONWIOE COVERAGE *DAILY DISCLAIMER
Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on January 23, 1978 in the This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Commission's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., Washington, D. C. The meeting w~s open to public attendance and ob~ervation. This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.
record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in beliefs. Nb pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinaticins or any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or arg!_tment contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 6170 CR Barther 1 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COJ,\\'.IMISSION
3 Briefing on
4 Decornm.1.s-sioning -
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11 Commission Conference Room 12 1717 H Street N.W.
Washington, D.C.
13 Monday, January 23, 1~78 (3:30 p.~.) !
- 14 I The Commission met pursuant to notice at 3:30 p.m.
15 PRESENT: Commissioners Hendrie, Gilinsky, Bradford, 16 and Kennedy.
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24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 2
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why don't we come to order.
2 We are here this afternoon to hear from the staff ori the
3 progress and stage of a management ejective on decommissioning.
4 Is there a staff paper associated with this?
5 Mr. Dircks. Yes, Secy 78.13.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Who should I* look to as chief?_
7 MR. DIRCKS: Bob Bernaro will be giving the briefing.
8 But just to refresh you, Mr. Chairman, this is one of these
9 package briefings that we are presenting. It is going to put
10 together all of it, everything on decommissioning.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Very good.
12 MR. DIRCKS: Although I think we are going to be
13 asking at the end, or calling your attention to two aspects
14 we would particularly like the Commission to fucus on, a plan
15 and the PIR petition that is pending. '
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: With that, all right, Bob.
17 MR. BERNARO: You may recall last month you had
18 a briefing on the waste management program, a broad overview.
19 Thatis where you saw this viewgraph before, which lists
20 traditional classes of waste. The last one of which listed
21 is decommissioning.
22 Decommissioning is to some extent not a class
23 of waste, it is a source of waste. Our purpose today is to
24 talk about decommissioning in general and to specifically 0,ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 approach you for approval of--a plan to establish revised or 3
new NRC policy on decommissioning, and to get your concurrence
2 or your approval of how we can deal with a petition intimately
3 related with that.
4 (Slide) s The outline I would like to follow is to cover
6 first a definition of terms, so that we understand what we are
7 referring to when we use the term decommissioning, review the a present situation, what the regulations cover, what the
9 present arrangements are for decommissioning, and then describe
10 to you a plan for re-evaluation and policy development.,_After
11 that, discuss the PIR petition and other related matters,
12 and potential problems.
13 In order to conserve time, I am*_ going to gloss over
14 some of the things, the viewgraphs, to a degree. However,
15 you have been furnished with a hand-out which is basically
16 the viewgraphs with more detailed material in them.
17 (Slide)
18 The definition of decommissioning is a little
19 bit difficult. I extracted these phra,ses from our own regul
20 ations, Section 50.82. The key words are that decommissioning
21 is retirement from active service, with disposal of radio
22 active material. The disposal need not be away from the site.
23 It is quite possible that the material is disposed of on the
24 site. And we use the term decommissioning.for repositories, Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 i or a low level burial ground*; or a uranium mill, where the wast'7 4
is right there. It is just a matter of putting it into some
2 stable form or stable situation that is acceptable.
3 (Slide)
4 The radioactive residues of the variety of
5 nuclear facilities, nuclear facility licenses and material
6 licenses, covers a very broad spectrum. You have the reaqily
7 removable thin~s, such as spent reactor fuel, the stored
8 solid wasts, gloves, things of that sort. There is much of it
9 that is removable only with difficulty, irradiated structures,
10 reactor *core barrels, things of that sort.And there are things
11 that are virtually not removable. Theoretically you can
12 remove mill tailings, but all you do is translate them 50
13 miles or something.
i 14 I So we have quite a broad spectrum of wasts to consider
15 in decommissioning facilities.
16 (Slide)
17 The problems in decornrnissionig fall in two basic
18 areas. One has technical problems, and economic or legal
19 or administrative problems.
20 In the technical problems, you have a host of
21 questions, how you decontaminate things, how does one accomplish
22 remote disassembly, packaging of waste, irradiated core
23 structures, things of that sort.
24 There is a need, too, where concrete structures Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 are involved, large concrete--structures can become contaminated 5
~nd you don't want to haul away all six feet thick of conrete
2 as waste. There is a very strong incentive to minimize the
3 waste voluem, so there comes a need to consider spalling or
4 shaving the first contaminated six inches or so of conrete
5 off the mass of structure.
6 There are questions of material salvage that come
7 up. In some instances expensive alloys are.involved in large
8 masses, large quantities.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: In what way is the concrete
10 contaminated?
11 MR. BERNARO: Well, from theory there is some
12 induced activity, the primary biological shield around the
13 reactor, the rebar in it may be irradiated. It is very low.
14 The primary contamination would be from liquid contamination,
15 the cell of a fuel fabrication or fuel reprocessing
16 facility, where sp~llage has seeped into the first two Or three
17 inches. It is quite difficult to remove then.
18 Then in the administrative area, the economic and
19 legal problems, there is the question of *financial assurance.
20 Decommissioning is an end of life.event, not a beginning of
21 life. So the time where funds are needed to accomplish
22 decorrµnissioning is at t.he end. of life. We have to project.. :.....
23 require~~nts,-*¢osts;*-ai.that***time ~nd consider methods to 24,
- insure now that. those funds will be available. This is Are-Federal Reporters, Inc. I 25 / sensitive. to.the type-of lic-ensee involyed. We have a broad
6
spectrum here. We have large, what one might call protected 2 reactor owners, the public utility, who are regulated, or
3 protected in their monopoly. And *there are simple business 4
ventures, people that run uranium mills or fuel fabrication 5
plants that are not in such a protected situation.
6 Decisions on fiancial assurance can affect the rate 7
structure for electric utility consumers. I-t can affect the 8
taxes for those companies.
9 So these are all significant factors. If the 10 question of bonding comes up, there is a very serious question 11 when someone speaks of 60.or J::-00 reactors, each possibly 12 being bonded for $30 million to decommission them. Who is 13 holding this bond money? What does that_bond mean? Is it 14 i I
just in the open bond market, or is it mutually self-15 assurance, or pool assurance? There are questions of this 16 nature.
17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Where do you see the tax 18 effect?
19 MR. BERNARO: The tax effect, if one requires front 20 end money from perhaps a reactor owner, to put money µpin 21 the early stages, we don't know wherher an escrow account or an 22 advance depreciation or a performance bond would have an '
23 I effect on the income taxes or Federal tax position of the utilitty.
24 I Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. We just don't know.
25 i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Do you know how utilities I I
7
handle this item for tax p~rposes now? That is, when 2 they depreciate the items involved in a plant, what values
3 do they assigned that are related to,decommissioning? Do 4 they make assumptions on the salvage value?
5 MR. BERNARO: We have information to*date that says
6 most of the ones we know of are treating -~t as a negative
7 salvage value. They are using an artificial depreciation.
8 Numbers of the order of $25 million in some instances, ten perce
1 t 9 '
of the capital costs in the case of the State of Connecticut,
10 which is rather high when you come down to it. And they are
11 dealing with it as an advance depreciation that can go
12 into company working capi ta.l, into the cash flow, but can not
. 13 be used, as I understand it, as a basis for issuance of
14 securities. They can't go raise money on those plant
15 assets or whatever that money goes into. And in this way
16 theyare apparently charging today's consumer of electricity,
17 the one using the reactor, for the future decommissioning,
18 and they are assuring the presence of the funds by carefully
19 enhancing their financial integrity *.
20 Now as far as the tax aspect of it, I just don't
21 know. We are not clear on that at all.
22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: But it would obviously affect
23 their depreciation.
24 MR. BERNARO: Yes, it can be involved there, I just Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 don't know how.
8
Now in this administrative economic legal
2 arena, there are also very serious questions of custody and
3 jurisdiction that are very delicate. We are dealing with a
4 matter that the states look upon as their prerogative to say
5 what assurance shall we have of the financial integrity of the
6 company, what assurance shall we have of the availability of
7 funds to take care of decommissioning.
a An interesting problem arises when you look at
9 decommissioning from a nuclear and a non-nuclear point of
10 view. It is theoretically possible for us to clean up a site
11 to radioactivity levels that are acceptable for unlimited
12 release. But there stands a reactor site with an old cooling
13 tower, an old intake structure, an old reactor containment
- 14 building, a bunch of concrete. It is not a pristine
15 site. The question arises should you clean up to a pristine
16 site. Should you knock down the cooling tower, tear down
17 the reactor building, which would be a formidable task. And
18 our estimates are showing us that is a very significant
19 fraction of the cost in the total decommissioning of a site.,
20 if one goes for dismantling.
21 I have had one coversation with a state agent and
22 was told that should strictly be the state's prerogative to
23 decide whether the site is cleaned up to that extent, pristine
24 condition, without reflecting on *the radiological iafety Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 question.
9
So this question of jurisdiction is quite delicate.
2 COMMISSIONER GLINSKY: You threw out a number like
3 $30 million earlier.
4 MR. BERNARO: For decommissioning, yes.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That is basically to clean
6 up the radioactivity?
7 MR. BERNARO: No. We are coming up with numbers
8 -- I am reluctant to discuss in too much detail our first
9 calculations on the PWR, but we are coming up in that ralrn
10 for total decommissioning, that is, getting down to a bare
11 site, level ground --
12 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That is removing the structur~s I
13 and all? I i
-- I 14 MR. BERNARO: _ Yes, demolishing the structures, so ! !
15 there is nothing standing on the site at the end, it is a
16 parking lot sort of thing.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Leveling it. It is not pristine,
18 there is a lot of stuff around.
19 MR. BERNARO: No, there is no attempt to restore it
20 to the original pine tree cover or anything like that.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You have knocked down the
22 structures
23 MR. BERNARO: No more cooling towers standing.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But you have left the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 concrete on the ground, I suppose.
- - ---------------~-----------------------------,
10
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Are the sub-surface structures
2 still there?
3 MR. BERNARO: I can't really say. I don't know.
4 I don't know if there is any sub-surface structure. We are
5 apprehensive about that estimate being optimistic. It may
6 be optimistic. And that.is in staff review right now, that
7 estimate.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You thought $100 million
9 was high?
10 MR. BERNARO: When I said $100 million, I was
11 referring to the Connecticut ten percent of capital cost,
12 which could easily get you to $100 million and I think
13 that is high. I think it should be half of that, perhaps.
I 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: At any rate, somewhere betwee~
i 15 teh $30 and $100 million?
16 MR. BERNARO: Yes.
17 From what I have seen it looks like $25, $30, $50
18 million, a numer in that range would be a suitable description I I
19 of a cost to get down to a levelled site.
20 MR. RATHBUM: Is that in '75 dollars?
21 MR. BERNARO: '76 dollars.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: level and uncontaminated?
23 MR. BERNARO: Yes, acceptable for unlimited release,
24 we can just walk away, no licensing. Assuming the state Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 agrees, and EPA agrees with our criteria for acceptable residue.
11
We are talking about very low levels of residual activity,
2 and here lies a significant jurisdictional problem. EPA
3 has the statutory responsibility for setting acceptable levels
4 of contamination in the environment.
5 COM..~ISSIONER KENNEDY: To an ambient standard.
6 MR. BERNARO: :ies. If we are to* authorize
7 decommissioning to unrestricted release, we would then be basing s our findings on once you get it down to that level, you can
9 walk away from it. We ought to be very careful that the
10 EPA endorses the figure~ and that.the states endorse the
11 figure, because ultimately we are walking away from the site.
12 Then their State radiological health service, or whatever
13 the description is, then is going to worry about that site
14 if they don't agree and object.
15 We have already had some communication from them
16 requesting or exploring ways that they can get into the
17 decision-making process, so that when we are making decisions
18 with respect to acceptable levels of residue, they are a part
19 of the decision.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Are you suggesting you could
21 have 50 different ones?
22 MR. BERNARO: I hope not. But the precedent we
23 have with the Clean Air Act is not clear right now. And we
24 are very vulnerable on that point.
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 One last thing in-*the administrative area is when 12
you look at decommissioning, and the decision-making that
2 goes with it, you are speaking of a cost-benefit basis.
3 Is it worth it for society in general to clean up this site
4 any further? Is it worth it to dismantle everything*, as against
5 entombing the stuff.in place and writing off the site
6 irrevocably?
7 The basis for such a cost-benefit~analysis is a
8 very senstivie one. ~ should be done prospectively, not
9 retrospectively. Not in the sense of contaminating sites
10 and then worrying about the problem.
11 EPA tried to confront this issue in their recent
12 proposals for acceptable levels of contamination in soil,
13 trying to make a distinction between plutonium in soil at a
14 place that already exists, as against plutonium in soil at
15 a place yet to be built or operated. And they couldn't
16 distinguish between the two.
17 (Slide)
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Suppose you were going to
19 build another reactor at that site? Could you use the same
20 colling towers and structures?
21 MR. BERNARO: Possibly. And it would also, of course,
22 reflect on your decision should you bother dismantling the
23 plant at least now, the.old plant. Does it make sense
24 to dismantle Indian Point I right now while Indian Point 2 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 and 3 are sitting there perking away for a long projected life?
13
MR. MINOGUE: It is likely these facilities would 2 not be reuseable. You have enough change** in the design and
3 approaches after 40 years that the buildings are not quite
4 the right size, the cooling towers are not the right configur-
5 ation. It is unlikely the *equipment would be reuseable.
6 The site might be reuseable.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Consider the number of _regulatory
8 guides that will. have issued in 30 years.
9 MR. MINOGUE: On cooling towers, yes. For once in
10 my life I am speechless.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Even you can't conceive of it?
12 MR. MINOGUE: No. But the site itself may well
13 be, unless you assume some entirely new a:i;:proach to the ____ _
14 generation of energy. It might very well be a very desirable
1-S site for another power plant.
16 MR. BERNARO: The site then becoming a segregated
17 facility by its nature. i
18 MR. MINOGUE: It gives you some incentive to I I
19 restore yours to the.original grade, because you will be buildin 1
20 a new facility on the same site or in that same area.
21 MR. BERNARO: Now I would like to review what is
22 in the present regulations on decommissioning. It is spotty.
23 Part 50 has the most of it. 50.33 requires financial
24 qualifications. Every time we license a part 50 applicant, Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 the staff has to make a finding that this licensee or proposed 14
licensee is financially qualified to operate and to shut
2 down and maintain in a safe condition that facility he seeks
3 to license.
4 It.is not clear that that addresses decommissioning.
5 It just says financial qualifications, and_that is it.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is there some standard for
7 this shutdown, or some amount of money you have to be able
8 to produce?
9 MR. BERNARO: No, we don't have that. We have a
10 Regulatory Guide 186, an attachment to the paper we forwarded
11 to you, attachment B, and it gives very general guidlines
12 on acceptable methods for decommissioning and acceptable
13 de minimus levels of contamination. That reg guide is
14 creaky with age already. It hasn't had a proper test, an
15 open regulatory test.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is there any real finding
17 made here?
18 MR. BERNARO: Oh, the financial qualifications
19 finding is made by, I would say, the economists, the book
20 keepers, looking at it.
21 OOMMISSIONER GILINSKY: This is like what we have
22 been through on construction permits?
23 MR. BERNARO: Yes, that sort of thing.
24 When one looks at the costs involved with buying Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 and.building and operating &-reactor, you are dealing with a 15
level of money that is so much greater than the
2 decommissioning costs that it is pretty hard to see the
3 decommissioning costs as a :big perturbation. When you get to
4 the fuel cycle facilities, it is a different story.
- 5 50.82 does speak to decommissioning, but we will
6 cross that bridge when we get to it; it is*end"'."""of-life
7-phrasology. At the end of its life*or near the end of its
8 life, the licensee may apply for termination and we go through
9 a decommissioning plan. But that is the time we would address
10 the details of it under the present regulations.
11 Part 50, appendix F, applies only to reprocessing
12 plants; it is the closest we have come to a policy which says
13 make ease of decommissioning a design objective. It suggests
14 competent authorities, hearing on the criteria, it suggests
15 opportunity for public cormnent, and perhaps a hearing.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Has this been applied?
17 MR. BERNARO: The part 50 appendix F really hasn't
18 had that much use since it came out in '71.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Isn't appendix F the one that
20 has the specific exemption.-for NFS West Valley?
21 MR. BERNARO: Yes, but that was on high level waste
22 only. There is a grandfather aspect to NSF West Valley
23 with respect to appendix F, because F came out f~ve years
24 after that plant started to operate. I Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. I 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But doesn't the decommissioning I 16
of that plant fall under Appendix F?
2 MR. BERNARO: In theory it does. I would say there
3 is a grandfather question, but in *fact it is a decommissioning
4 of a fuel reprocessing plant, and appendix F would apply.
5 The only exemption was the solidified waste in five years,
6 because it was alkaline waste and that was-given a specific
7 separate rule-making.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What is happening at the
9 plant there?
10 MR. BERNARO: At West Valley, NMSS is having a
11 difficult time with it, trying to pursue the question of
12 decommissioning~: at the same time the co-licensees, the
13 New York ERDA.and NSF, New York ERDA being more deeply hooked
- 14 than NSF, they are trying to get USDOE to take over the whole
15 facility~ So eve~y exploration -of decommissioning is met
16 with why don't you wait until DOE takes the place, they may
17 want to do soemthing with it.
18 So right now it is in a standby mode.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is it mothballed in some way?
20 MR. BERNARO: You could call it that. It is
21 dormant, it is not mothballed in the sense that you can walk
22 away from it. The fans are kept on to keep negative pressure
23 in the cells, so contamination doesn't seep through the
24 gaskets and so forth. But it is a dormant plant, there is Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 no activity in there other than surveillence. But it is not a 17
mothballed plant in the usual sense of the tenn, one that
2 merely has watchmen. It has dynamic systems operating,
3 vent condensers for the high level waste tanks, echaust fans
4 for the process cells, things of that nature.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And this is going to go on
6 pending resolution of the whole problem of*who is responsible
7 for it?
8 MR. BERNARO: Yes. Right now that is the appearance o
- 9. it. There was a paper submitted to the Commission this past
10 spring, -March of '77, reviewing the NSF West Valley situation. -* J
I 11 There was an interim safety evaluation done to see if we are
12 at the edge of a cliff. And as I recall the situation there,
13 it is dormant, it is donnant acceptably.safe for the foresee-
-- 14 able future, the near term. It is a mess to be cleaned up, it
15 is a clear and present hazard sort of thing.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Wouldn't there be some value
17 in separating out the plant problem from the problem with
18 the tanks?
19 MR. BERNARO: Except that the plant is so
20 intimately involved with the tanks.* If one is to do something
21 with *the waste in the tanks, the first place one looks for an
22 evaporator to concentrate waste or anything is in the plant
23 and piping system. It is very likely a good technical
24 solution will have perhaps some modifications to that, then Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 the plant will digest that waste, swallow it back up and make 18
it into solidified form amenable to shipment away.
2 Part 20 is notable for decommissioning. It
3 II limits low level waste burial to state or Federally owned land.
4 II That has been extrapolated to entombed facilities. The state
- 5 II has some sort of role if there is to be a permanent dedication
6 II of the low level waste in an entombed faci1ity. There is
7 II nothing in parts 3 0, 4 0, or 7 0.
BIi The material license portions of the regulations
9 II are really mute on the subject of decommissioning; there is
10 II a big gap there.
11 II COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What.does the Government do
1211 with its decommissioned plants?
13 MR. BERNARO: Collects them. The Government right
- 14 II now, DOE you are referring to, is agonizing a reappraisal of
15 II the whole thing. Their first order of business is what they
16 II call their abandoned sites program. These are not so much
1711 their facilities, but these old things where Madam Curie's
18 II uranium was* processed, this sort of thing. They are sites
1911 that were released a long time ago, and are sitting out there,
20 II and may or may not be acceptable.
21 II They have a high.: priority program to do surveys,
22 II evaluations, go through them and get them cleaned up in a
23 five-year program.
24 COMMISSIONER.GILINSKY: What about. the Government Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 II reactors?
19
MR. BERNARO: There are government reactors, Hansford,
2 Nevada's national reactor test station, all of these
3 places, *.. and right now they are concentrating on an
4 inventory of what they have and a long-range plan for what to
5 do with it, some orderly decommissioning of thosee things.
6 But it is a much much longer term than this five-year abandoned
7 sites thing.
8 MR. MINOGUE: There are a few small power plants
9 in the civilian sector that have been decommissioned that
10 go back to the late '50s, :.in the civilian sector.
11 MR. BERNARO: There is a table in the paper
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Weren't some of the part 115
13 machines decommissioned?
14 MR. MINOGUE: I don't recognize part 115.
15 MR. BERNARO: You mean the demonstration reactors?
16 MR. MINOGUE: Evidently it was done successfully.
17 MR. BERNARO: There is a table in the paper of the
18 15 test and demonstration reactors that have been decommissioned
19 Not all were dismantled; some were mothballed or entombed.
20 Then there are dozens of little research pool
21 reactors. It is in table 1 of attachment B to the paper
22 Secy 78-13. It lists reactors such as Saxton, C-4, NASA
23 Glenbrook, Elk River, that generation. It is on page 12
24 of attachment Bin Secy 78-13.
Ace-Federal Reporters, i'nc.
25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: What financial provisions 20
have been made in the case of say Peachbottom, ones that were 1.
2 built for operating facilities? Are they carrying that along
3 as an operating expense?
4 MR. BERNARO: I don't know how they are carrying
- 5 that. I would point out that PEachbottom was built by that whol
- 6 college of utilities, but is actually ope~ated by Philadelphia
7 Electric. Fermi I was the Power Reactor Development Corporation,
8 and they indeed had a level of funds such that the Commission
9 stepped in and said you can't afford to operate any more, you
10 have go~ to decommission. That was mothballing type
11 decommissioning.
12 MR. MINOGUE: I don't recall any specific provision
13 of funds for Peachbottom I. There was a recognition the plant
- 14 might run for perhaps ten years, and then be shut down, but
15 I think the feeling was that the cost of ultimate decommission
16 ing would not be sufficiently great to be any undue burden.
17 MR. BERNARO: It is on a possession-only license
18 now.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Is that Philadelphia
20 Electric?
21 MR. BERNARO: Yes. It is out of sight with those
22 two big boiling water reactors that are operating. So it is
23 a very small thing in their operation, I would think.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: What about Fermi I?
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. BERNARO: Fermi I is on a site for forthcoming 21
reactors, Fermi II and III.
2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Has it been turned over to
3 Detroit Edison?
4 MR. BERNARO: It is a possession-only license.
5 I assume it is Detroit Edison. They are the site owner and
6 operator.
7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: And the expense associated
8 with that is born by the Company?
9 MR. BERNARO: By Detroit Edison. I am not sure of
10 that. It is a conjecture.
11 MR. MINOGUE: I am not one hundred percent certain,
12 but I believe the expenses on Peachbottom I were born by
13 Philadelphia Electric and :G~lf Oil in some way. I don't
14 believe there is any government money in that that I am aware
15 of.
16 (Slide) 17 MR. BERNARO: If you look at the present situation, '
18 we have two poles, almost, of problems. NRR is re-issuing
19 virtually all facility licenses under part 50. It is not
20 like 30, 40 and 70, where it is a material license. They
21 are, of course, constrained by the 50.33 requirements to
22 evaluate financial integrity. There is advance evaluation
-- 23 of decommissioning, but recognizing that the cost is relatively
24 small compared to the cost of the plant, whether you are looking Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 at the financial integrity or looking at the mills per kilowatt I~------
22
hour.analysis, the decommissioning is not a big bump in the
2 curve.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: As a practical matter, we
4 don't pay much attention to it.?
5 MR. BERNARO: No, it is very low.key treatment. The
6 reg guide 186 is there as guidance, and the licensee can
7 evaluate and do evalluate that, oh, we might decommission this
8 way or that way. The lack of clear policy on how to get
9 rid of the things, once and for all, though, leads to an
10 accummulation of mothballs. We have got sites collecting
11 one after the other. Peachbottom I is on the site with II
12 and II, and Indian Point I on the site with 2 and 3 operating.
13 Fermi I, GE recently came up before the staff because of
14 the seismic problem, the GE test reactor.
15 One of the first things that came out in that
16 we are talking about a site with an ative test reactor,
17 what else is there? Two old quote decommissioned unquote
18 *. reactors, the. Eveser (sic) and the VBWR. One of them I I
19 is sitting there dormant, mothballed for 13 years, and the othe1
I 20 for 9 years. !
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Where is this?
22 MR. BERNARO: In Vallacito, California. They are
23 not a clear and present hazard, a mothballed reactor is not
24 a real proximate danger.to any human life; it is just a mess Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 that has to be cleaned up.
23
What happens for lack of policy is this accummulation
2 *of such residual problems.
3 On the NMSS side you are dealing with material
4 licenses for the most part, only a few facility licenses,
5 fuel reprocessing plants and --
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Let me stop you there for a
7 second. Financial questions aside, what assumption is made,
8
- is the utility asked to indicate what it is going to. do
9 with the reactor at the end of its useful life?
10 MR. BERNARO: Generally they are asked to make
11 a tentative decommissioning analysis. Reg Guide 186 leaves
12 the door wide open. You can mothball, you can entomb, dismantle,
13 or convert to another facility.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Do you have to indicate ahead
15 of time what your plans are?
16 MR. BERNARO: Yes, you have to discuss it. But in
17 general they discuss mothballing.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Theyare not held to that?
19 MR. BERNARO: No, because 50.82 is there.
20 COMMISSION GILINSKY: So in effect the licensing
21 process pretty well ignores decommissioning?
22 MR. MINOGUE: That is a little too strong, but
23 you are in the right direction.
24
II MR. BERNARO: ~ plays a very low key, if at all.
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. MONOGUE: There was a basic perception several 24
years ago, because a number of these demonstration plants
2 had been rather successfully decommissioned, that there were
3 many paths to decommissioning, and all of them involved little
4 more than throwing money at it. There was no real technical
5 difficulty. So there hasn't been a lot of emphasis placed
6 on this in the licensing process. So to that extent I agree
7 with you.
8 But I wouldn't say it has been ignored in the sense
9 that nobody failed to recognize something needed to be done
10 at the end of life.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And it is correct, is it, tha~
I 1
12 the assumptions that were mde, that there were not insurmountabl e
13 significant technical problems to be dealt with, it was just,
14 as you pointed out so well, a mess that needs cleaning up, but
15 not a technical problem?
16 MR. BERNARO: No, and not a truly enormous amount of
17 money, compared to-teh resources of a reactor owner.
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: But assumptions are made in
19 the environmental impact analysis about the site after the
20 reactor stops operation?
21 MR. BERNARO: I am not sure of that. I just don't
22 know. I think the site is written off as an irretreivable
\\
23 commitment of.the land, the few acres involved.
24 MR. DIRCKS: I think in the cost-benefit analysis Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 you don't reclaim the site for any other purpose.
25
COM..1\\1:ISSIONER KENNEDY: But in fact you could use it fr
2 another power plant later, so you would have a benefit.
3 MR. DIRCKS: But they don't take that benefit.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They don't take it in the
5 original analysis.
6 MR. MINOGUE: Just look at the last 40 years at
7 the development of the sizes of plants~ Fo:tty--year-old ?ites
8 are generally not that useable today. It would not seem
9 prudent to assume that to be a given.
10 MR. BERNARO: Getting to NMSS facilities and
11 material license history, there have been many facility
12 decontaminations both inside the government and outside. Every
13 time someone changes his process flow sheet, they frequently
14 go in and decontaminate. They decommission a chunk of the
15 facility and rebuild it to some other process. That has been
16 done many times, the technology is well-established.
17 There have been problems, mill tailings of course
18 the Grand Junction case is a dramatic one, all of the
19 current concern about mill tailings is very real. NSF West
20 Valley, in retrospect it seems a textbook example of
21 bad decisions, problems, or mistakes. It has a lot of
22 difficulties associated with it. NMSS is,on the other hand,
23 looking now to their present activities, licensing principally
24 in uranium mills --
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 CO~.MISSIONER GILI~SKY: Was there something not 26
foreseen at NSF, that all of this material would leak out
2 or what?
3 MR. BERNARO: r is difficult to reconstruct. There
4 was a great deal of attention given at the time to who is
5 responsible for this. In fact, even going so far as to make th
6 State of New York stand Fbehind that state-chartered corporation.
7 I found little in the record to show that a great deal of
8 thought was given to how to get the junk out of the tank,
9 making sure it is a good tank, the best tank, but not any
10 real thought to that.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why didn't they use the
12 process they used in Idaho, acid solutions,. and everything
13 seems to be working okay.
14 MR. BERNARO: Well, the generation that designed
15 remember NFS West Valley was designed in the early to mid
16 1960s, and it went on line in '66. It was based on defense
17 reprocessing technology, which to this day neutralizes
18 the waste. ------- -----------
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:.. But ! ____ tpoua_ht that is not
20 ---- --------~ :
the case in Idaho.
21 MR. BERNARO: Idaho is the exception.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That is also a Defense
23 establishment.
24 MR. BERNARo:*A unique one, yes. There has been a Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 polarization between the Idaho philosophy and the Savannah..
27
River-Hanford philosophy. And I am afraid the influence is 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Did it start that way?
3 Didn't they change somewhere al6ng the line in their process?
4 MR. BERNARO: I -don't know. I thought Idaho used 5
acid waste always.
6 MR. MONOGUE: That fs my understanding, too. I thin 7
that is the case.
8 MR. BERNARO: But the Hanford and Savannah River, 9
starting up in the early '50s, or mid-'S0s, they were World 10 War II tradition, neutralizing the waste, and we did it that 11 way last year, we will do it this year. That is where all of 12 the tank technology that went into NSF came from.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I thought this all stemmed 14 from the shortage of. stainless steel during World War II, 15 and that is why they went to those tanks and that solution.
16 MR. BERNARO: Gee, I wouldn't think -- I have 17 ~--------- - - ----- --- -- - ---- -* - -
never heard that argument. The only argument I ever heard 18 was one tha~ I find credible, that there was less attention 19 paid, you know, just throw the stuff in the ground, we are 20 going to have a lot of it. The first chemical processes were 21 notable for having enormous quantities of waste.To get a 22 little bit of uranium, and a little bit of plutonium, 23 they generated a lot of 1-guid. So there was just recognition 24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. that we needed a lot of tanks. And as a corollary, perhaps, 25 if you are going to build dozens and dozens of tanks, you 28
don't want to build them out of stainless steel, which
2 especially then was rare. In a sense I am concurring with
3 your proposed reason. But I had never heard it phrased in
4 that way.
5 But what NMSS is doing now, *thE=y are delaing with
6 licensing actions on uranium mi*lls, renewals for fuel
7 fabrication facilities. And because they are dealing with
8 facility owners, who to some extent are simply business
9 ventures, no guarantees, no protected regulated monopoly
10 situation, what they are requiring is a tentative decomrnissionin
11 plan, and some sort of performance bond, some front-end money.
12 But keep in mind you are only talking about a few
13 million dollars here, $2 or $3 million, numbers of that order,
- 14 and NMSS is working closely with the states, like the mill
15 tailings bonding, because many of the mills are in agreement
16 states.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: There is only a material
18 license. What are the licensees responsibilities once he
19 has divested himself of the material?
20 MR. BERNARO: None. But see that is the key.
21 In order to divest himself of the material, the residue comes
22 into question. If he is operating at some --
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: NMSS continues to have a
24 grip on him because there is residue in his plant?.
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. BERNARO: Yes. The grip is on him, not.on the 29
plant. It is a peculiar difference from the reactor situation, 2 where the plant itself is licensed, and of course the owner,
3 is the licensee. And that is why one speaks in a reactor**
4 of going to a possession-only license, which is an analogue of
5 a material license. You are not allowed to generate power,
6 in fact you are physically incapable of it, you t~ke the
- 7. fuel out of the reactor. You are just authorized to possess
8 the 60,000 curies of.activity.
9 I would like to move on now.
10 (Slide)
11 We have a great deal of pressure-now, we need
12 change, we have just talked about NSF West Valley, the accummu
13 lation of mothballs.
14 There is a good deal of Congressional pres~sure on
15 this subject, as you are.. probably_ aware. There have been
16 a number of hearings on it, and a GAO report.
17 We have before us a Public Interest Research Group,
18 who have petitioned for a rule change, and we will touch on tha
19 a little later.
20 The public pressure is to do something about
21 decommissioning, to clarify it. As I said, NMSS is even
22 trying to clarify their regulations at this stage, to make thei
23 job easier in current licensing actions.
24 (SLide)
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 So we are looking for a m~ster plan to reconsider
and re-evaluate policy and come up with a coherent picture.
30
Now we expect that a properiy constructeq
2 master plan would have joint action by the licensing and support
3 offices. This is a matter that involves NRR, NMSS, and the
4 support offices can give them a great deal of help in the
5 technical area, and in the administrative area with the states,
6 because of the tight involvement with the ~tates.
7 We would look for a substantial data base. We
8 need a lot of information to know what all of the different
9 facilities are and what can be done.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You are talking about a gran
11 master plan which deals with all facilities?
12 MR. BERNARO: Yes, everything. This is what I am
13 trying to p~oint out, how can this agency approach the
14 problem without distinguishing fuel fabrication plants as
15 against a PWR or a low level burial ground, or a radiographer
16 or something like that.
17 The issue.of decommissioning, of disposing of radio-
18 active residue.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What do you mean without
20 distinguishing?
21 MR. BERNARO: Well, what are the general principles
22 we would apply, and then what variations might be appropriate,
23 variations due to the type of licensee, to the type of
24 facility involved~ the level of financial power that that o;ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 licensee has, financial integrity.
31
There are a variety of issues that have to be 2 considered in this plan. But we are looking for a plan that
3 would approach the issue from the general-and work down to 4 the particular.
5 MR. DIRCKS: Agency plan.
6 MR. BERNARO: Not a NRR-NMSS approach, but just what 7
is the issue.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I think there is some 9
virtue in going from the general to the specific. There is 10 also some virtue, it seems to me, in going the other way.
11 MR. BERNARO: Indeed the plan reflects that, 12 I think.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: For one thi*ng,
- if you are 14 looking for this grand master plan, you will tend to wait 15 a good deal longer than you might otherwise in doing some 16 things you could do. And, you know, it has the virtue 17 of a certain logic, but just looking at your schedule, jumping 18 ahead a little bit, it does in a sense slow you down, I 19 think.
20 MR. BERNARO: Let me go through that. I don't
21 think it is that slow. I would like to make certain arguments 22 for it.
23 (Slide) 24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. We have got current work:: going on right now that 25 carries us into a position that we are farther along than it 32
appears on the surface. We have had studies by Batelle
2 Northwest going on at a low profile for the last couple of
3 years, and these are studies to generate specific detailed
4 information on the _.alternative methods to decommissioning
5 particular types of facilities. What are the costs in dollars,
6 in man rem expose? What are the volumes of waste_generated? '
7 What are the problems?
8 We have set up those contracts for a range of
9 facilities and in the notes I gave you there are eight specific
10 facilities, two types of reactors, PWR, BWR, fuel
11 reprocessing plants, low level burial ground, mixed oxide
12 fabrication plants, a small one, like the existing ones,
13 uranium fabrication plants, UF 6 plants and uranium mills.
14 MR. MINOGUE: THese are all based on pulling
15 together technology that already exists. So recognize here
16 this is not a p~ogram to develop new*techniques, but to
17 -pull together the techniques that have been used over the
18 years.
19 MR. BERNARO: One of those is done, the
20 information report on the fuel reprocessing plants is done
21 and published in final form. It was published at the end
22 of the last fiscal year.
23 COM..MISSIONER BRADFORD: When you say the technology
24 already exists, what do-you have in mind?
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. MINOGUE: In the area of reactors and in the 33
area of fuel facilities there are a number of cases.where
2 people had to come in and carry out decontamination operations
3 _in order to repair or r-efurbish equipment, change-over
4 in process systems. That has been going on for 30 years.
5 In that period of time a number of reagents have been developed,
6 techniques assessed, ways of handling this* problem.
7 What these guys have done i.s not*re-invent the wheel s so much as to go out and make a critique of what has been done i
9 the industry and in the government programs and look at how
10 these techniques would be applied to these different types
11 of facilities.
12 That is one of the arguments, of course, to come at
13 this from the general. The techniques are much the sam~,
14 whether you are talking about decontaminating process piping
15 in a reactor or anywhwere else; it is all piping.
16 MR. BERNARO: But the contractor here is directed
17 to stick with the state of the art to the greatest extent.
18 And this range of facilities was selected in the hope of
19 providing a specific set of facilities that would cover the
20 whole range of interest.
21 So that if one wants to generalize, we have a
22 broad base to generalize upon.
23 A corollary to these studies of how to decontaminat
24 or decommission existing f ac*ili ties is a study of ways to Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 facilitate decommissioning. *- ANything they turn up in this 34
will also come out that perhaps a design change of this
2 or that will greatly facilitate decommissioning.
3 It would identify problem areas, difficult areas, costly
4 areas. And that is part of this whole contract effort.
I 5 Now other things are going on that relate to
6 this. We have continuing liaison with EPA on disposal criteria,
7 acceptable residue levels. That relates directly to what is
8 an acceptable final situation for decommissioning.
9 The waste management program in total relates
10 very strongly to this. Recall that decommissioning is*a way to
11 generate waste, not to dispose of*it. And all of the
12 considerations, waste classification, that MNSS is looking
13 at, the waste disposal criteria, the risks associated withit,
14 all that relates directly to this.
15 AIF recently published a reactor decommissioning
16 study that we are evaluating closely and comparing to our
17 work.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What were the conclusions of
19 that?
- 20 MR. BERNARO: They conclude that it is worthwhile
21 to let*it s+/-t for quite a while to decay radioacativity
22 and then go in and dismantle it. It is a lot cteaper to dismant e
23 after a su_bstantial delay.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What is a substantial delay?
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. BERNARO: Numbers as high as a hundred years.
35
Decades of delay. Going after nuclides like cobalt 60,
2 things like that~ getting 10 half lives 0£ a 5.7 year half
3 life.
4 We are finding a lot more concern with the nuclide
5 they didn ' t find concern with, niobium 9 4,.and our
6 results are indicating.perhaps some delay is worthwhile, but*
7 not too many decades. You have got more long-lived
8 indiced activity in the reactor vessel than AIF has.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: From the niobium?
10 MR.,BERNARO: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What is the half life?
12 MR. BERNARO: 20,000 years.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: You have to wait a long time~
14 MR. HERNARO: Yes. It is there. And it is a fairly
15 hefty gamma field. By fairly hefty, after you decay away the
16 cobalt 80 and the short-lived induced activities, we._ are
17 talking about fields of a few R per hour, 1, 2, or 5 r per
18 hour2.083333e-4 days <br />0.005 hours <br />2.97619e-5 weeks <br />6.849e-6 months <br />, enough to make manual operations difficult, not
19 very high fields, but enough to be costly.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: For instance, is it next to the
21 vessel*or inside the vessel?
22 MR. BERNARO: In and around the*reactor vessel
23 and its barrel and so forth.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That is down in the range where Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 you might get under water?
36
MR. BERNARO: Yes.
2 MR. MINOGUE: There are techniques for doing this
3 kind of work under water, however.
4 MR. BERNARO: :es. But it is not so high as to
5 make it a terribly formidable obstacle.
6 We are evaluating the possiblity of contaminated
7 scrap recycle, valuable metal alloys. This is associated
8 with a DOE request for an exemption that I will touch on
9 later.
10 (Slide)
11 We look for the development of regulatory policy
12 to involve three focal points. Contractors~ can supply
13 information and that is all they should supply. They can be
14 hired to generate ~echnical data, put it in a form to
15 make it useable to us.
16 We see the NRC staff then holding the
17 responsibility to evaluate contractor-furnished information,.
18 to derive policy alternatives and conclusions, to see which
19 way might we go, solicit broad comments, discuss this with
20 all related Federal agencies, state agencies, and the public.
21 And to.formulate or propose regulatory policy to you gentlemen.
22 Then, of course, the Commission considers the
23 staff recommendations, weighs the public comments, and sets
24 the policy.
- Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 This plan we hav~ set up is what we think is the
appropriate way to do this, for decommissioning.as a general 37
issue and decommissioning in particular.
2 (Slide)
3 There are three areas where we feel that the NRC
4 staff has to take a lead role in the evaluation. This
5 should not be delegated to contractors:.. -The financial 6 assurance evaluation, the regulatory considerations thereof,
7 the evaluation of acceptable radioactive residue levels, the s evaluation of generic applicability.
9 In the financial assurance, the decision on how
10 much financial assurance is needed for each type of licenses,
11 who is responsible, who guarantees that responsibility, and how.
12 All of this should be judged by the staff. Of course that
13 principally involves the licensing offices and in particular
14 the economic staff in NRR, where most of our economists work.
15 The radioactive residue, we have this interface
16 with EPA, their responsibility for standards. We have had
17 difficult_progress in this area of setting standards
18 for radioactive residues in tqe environment. It is a very
19 difficult one. There is an important state role here
20 because the states have a voice in this matter.
21 Generic applicability is where one gets to the
22 thing, if we have studied 8 different types of facilities,
23 are these reference plants representative of the full range
i 24 of plants? Can we extrapolate to other types of facilities?
- Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
I 25 Can we extrapolate to policy-*judgments?.
38
Here we are extrapolating from the particular to
2 the general, in considering this master plan. So this is
3 the point I want to make here, that the plan is to set
4 general policy for.decommissioning to be applied to particular
5 types of facilities or.. actions, but the data base, the
6 information base, is generated on particular types, hopefully
7 covering the entire spectrum of them, in order to have a soundly
8 based policy.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Where is all this headed?
10 Is it headed toward rule-making?
11 MR. BERNARO: Yes, it is.
12 (Slide)
13 This viewgraph covers the existing work, whab.*JWe
-. 14 are doing, these information reports from Batelle. At the
15 top you see the pressurized water reactor report, the draft
16 is in hand, we are deeply involved in the staff review of it
17 now.
18 The BWR report comes in in FY '79.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Are these significantly
20 different?
21 MR. BERNARO: I don't know yet. Much of it ought
22 to be the same on the outer auxiliary systems, cooling towers,
23 things like that would be virtually identical. But the reactor
24 itself, I don't know. That is where we would expect the
-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 differences, in the reactor and containments.
39
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And the contaminated steel
2 pipe?
3 MR. BERNARO: Yes, the balance of the plant, the
4 steam condenser, that sort of thing, will undoubtedly have
5 a higher level of contamination.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why did you start-with
7 the reprocessing plant? Did you have NSF in mind?
8 MR. BERNARO: Well, yes and no. This sort of grew
9 like Topsy. The reprocessing plant was the first concept
10 that got very far along, and then it was accellerated
11 to complete it as a sample or test case for two reasons.
12 One was it was yseful for NFS, it covers a very broad spectrum f
13 the tyeps of decontamination involved. You have transuranics,
- 14 loose fission products, crud, all sorts of things.
15 Technically it ~s a very good question how to 16 decommission a*fuel reprocessing,plant. There was another 17 ------ ----------
reason for us to complete it last fiscal year, and that
18 was to terminate work on reprocessing in an orderly fashion.
19 So we just artificially got that wrapped up as
20 a good test case, as a first cut for the entire package.
21 And then gave the highest priority next to the reactors.
22 And the priorities that were selected for these
23 others are perhaps of interest. The mixed oxide fabrication
- 24 plants exist, there are.a group of these. And they need
~ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 decommissioning. These are things like Kerr-McGee Cimeron, 40
old plants, NFS Erwin faciliity, there is a portion of that
2 facility that is old.
3 So we are using the Kerr-McGee Cimeron as the
4 reference plant there for that MOX. That is why that was first.
5 It also can derive a great deal from the fuel
6 reprocessing plants. We want low *level burial next, and then
7 the uranium mills next, to match the uranium mill schedule
8 o the GEIS on uranium milling, so that we don't do things -----------
9 twice.
10 We base it on that GEIS and all of the information
11 that flows out of that.
12 Then we leave until last the fuel fabrication
13 plants, that is, uranium, and the UE 6 conversion plant, for
14 two reasons.
15 One, there is not a great deal of pressure on
16 either of those things for decommissioning at this time. And
dkw 17 secondly, from a.technical point of view, they seem the most
18 straight forward, and have a precursor, both of them have a
19 precursor up there in the MOX fabrication and in ithe.. fuel
20 reprocessing.
21 The reactor facilitation and fuel cycle facilitation
22 followed. If You look at the pattern, the key point -
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What does that mean?
24 MR. BERNARO: These are other ways to improve Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 decommissioning. This would be a long-term payoff, that 41
dkw 2 should we start to bump these designs in some way, and through
2 the regulatory process, to avoid difficult decontamination
3 problems, or decommissioning design problems.
4 MR. MINOGUE: See, that's the one thing we
5 incorporated--not licensing processes--to make any real
6 effort to force the plants to be designed.to facilitate
7 later decommissioning.
8 And the thought here is that there may be some
9 relatively straightforward things that could reasonably
10 be done; make it much easier later~
11 MR. BERNARO: As an example, a 6-foot layer of
12 concrete, that's going to have the first 6 inches
13 contaminated; does it make sense to cast in a layer of steel?
14 Or some holes £or explosi~e, or something like that? So
15 that when the time comes, you just put some plugs in, and
16 bip, there it goes. You've got the material off on the
17 floor.
18 The:* key thing here is if you look at the.
19 information flow you see either final or draft form reports
20 in hand in the middle of calendar year '79. See, along
21 about.June or July of '79 there, the July of this work is
22 done. You've got a broad spectrum of information available to
23 you.
24 May I have 14 please?
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 (Slide.)
42
dkw 3 So what the plan looks to, the plan looks to buildin
2 on that base, and having the Staff*.analysis in the following
3 areas.
4 The first one at the top: liaison with the states
5 the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which relates to
6 rate-setting bodies. And a Staff analysis for financial
7 assurance; what is the spectrum of financial assurance
8 requirements we have in the -- in the whole range of our
9 licensing activities.
10 We have then liaison with EPA on radioactive
11 residues, and perhaps that's not the best term. :.*=-~ risk
12 assessment -- but an evaluation of what are acceptable
13 residual activity levels, and closely tying that with our
14 EPA liaison:,.... because=.in effect, we wait until EPA gives us
15 those levels or those criteria for residual activity, or
16 we generate them and_get EPA to endorse them as we go along.
17 And thirdly, the_ generic applicability, we have
18 both the reactor people looking at their reactor range of
19 interest, and the fuel cycle people, NMSS, looking at theirs
20 NMSS gets two other. little bumps, because they're still
21 picking up these other --
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me understand. You
23 say, "proposed rule." That's a rule that covers all these
24 facilites?
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. BERNARO: Well, it would be a policy statement 43
dkw 4 accompanied by whatever proposed rule is needed for its
2 basic implementation. Now --
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I guess -- you know, you** re
4 finishing the PWR work in the middle of fiscal '78 sometimes,
5 but you're not going to get to anything in the way of a
6 rule on, say PWRs, until the middle of fiscal '80. And I'm
7 wondering why we hav.e to wait so long.
8 MR. BERNARO: Well, we --
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I realize the advantage of
10 doing it all together, and seeing* it all laid out before
11 yoµ. But the facilities, it seems to me, the ones we are
12 most concerned about, are the reactors.
13 MR. BERNAR.O: Well, OPE raised this point. And
14 before I leave this viewgraph let me just make a point and
15 then address your issue.
16 If you look here on this MBOB, you see state
17 workshops. We indicate two of them, down at the bottom
18 here, and the purpose of these is, in an orderly fashion, to
19 deal with the states in a formal way, to let them know
20 what information we are generating, to share it with them, to
21 tet their comments on it, and with these interim reports on
22 financial assurance, radioactive residues, and generic
23 applicability, to share our thought processes with them at the
24 earliest opportunity. So that when we come out with the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 draft environmental impact statement to support that policy 44
dkw 5 and rule, we do have a confidence that it's not sudden, burst
2 on the public and on the states so that they don't understand
3 it, or don't agree with it.
4 MR. MINOGUE: One thing that I think is fairly
- 5 important here, Commissioner: the technical reports that come o t
6 of the work by the contractor of course are being published and
7 roach available as quickly as they are being done, so much of th
8 technology transfer if you like, is there to be used by
9 l.icensees without -- we have rules already that provide a
10 legal framework for handling this area.
11 MR *.. :BENARO.:.::. Each *one. of these information reports
12 from Battelle is being published as a new reg report with a
13 solicitation of commonet on the cover sheet. We are giving
14 them very wide distribution.
15 *----- (Slide) J
16 I wo1.::.ld :Li.ke to clarify for a moment. I said in
17 the :i;*aper here that OPE concurred with the paper. That was
18 inaccurate. OPE actually said to send it forward, but they
19 raised an.alternative that was not considered in this paper,
20 and is similar to what you are suggesting.
21 What about individual rule-makings? Take these
22 things as they come along and dweal with them, and we can get
23 the rules tailored to specific facilities and get them at the
24 earliest opportunity. That is an advantage.
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25 We did not _;*elect to recommend that to you because 45
DB 1 we felt that piecemeal approache.does_not establish general 2 policy. And one might really have to go*back and reconstruct
3 or change things. An objective appraisal of the whole
4 spectrum might give a different policy*than the preliminary
5 or advance consideration of one type*of facility.*
6 Secondly, it is difficult to define the comprehensive
7 set of facilities. How many reactors or how many fuel cycle
8 facilities will define the rule-making set? it is
9 very difficult to say. We have eight to look at. We may
10 conclude, it is hypothetically possible we will conclude we 11 need to look at more.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But the bulk of it is 13 reactorsj We are talking about well over a hundred reactors
14 in this country.
15 MR. BERNARO: Well, the number of facilities and 16 the dollars involved, that is probably true.
17 MR. MINOGUE: I think the biggest technical
18 difficulties and the big safety issues are going to arise 19 from the fuel facilities, many of which are reprocessing 20 plants and mixed oxide. The situation will not change that
21 ----
much ih the next few years. What is then done is done.
22 We are not building any new mixed oxide plants.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But we are authorizing the
24 Ace-Federal Reporters, tnc. bj ilding of new reactors. It would be nice if we had our 25 thoughts about decommission~ng.
46
DB 2 MR. MINOGUE: I don't feel the technical problems
2 involved in decommissiong reactors are all that great. I think
3 it is important to hang it together with a well-thought-out
4 coherent policy. But I don't see any really serious major
5 technical problems involving a real threat to the public health
6 and safety such as you would see looking at facilities like
7 NFS, if not properly handled. It is a question of what is
8 the.urgency of moving ahead now with all of the rule-making
9 which detracts efforts from some of the other things.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: The reports that arose from
11 NSF are in advance of the other ones. So why can't we get
12 going on that right away? You ought to be able to do reactors
13 next.
MR. BERNARO: The point I would make is there is more
15 to doing fuel reprocessing plants policy or PWR policy than
16 having that Battelle report. It is the perspective one must
17 have, okay? Here is some information, here is the cost.
18 That fuel reprocessing plant is based on Barnwell, by the
19 way. We thought that was more long-range useable than NFS.
20 But it is just technical information on what are the possible
21 ways to clean up*a cell, carve up a*buried stainless steel
22 waste tank. It is not enough to set a policy.
23 MR. MINOGUE: Also the reprocessing plants are
24 generators of low level waste. I think the issue of how ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 you could lay out a rule-making now, when you don't know.
47
where the waste is going is very difficult.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And how is that going to
3 change.
4 MR. MINOGUE: The decommissioning activity is
5 a generator of waste. The way in which you go at it will
6 depend to some extent on what the ultimate* storage process is
7 to be, but that is an unknown.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: How is that going to change?
9 Maybe we ought to wait and not rush ahead.
10 MR. MINOGUE: I was trying to answer the question
11 about should we go ahead with rule-making right now for
12 reprocessing and mixed oxide plants, and set the other stuff
13 on a later schedule.
14 I would hope to see some developments in the idea.
15 of waste management in the next year or so that would help
16 point to the end disposition, what it would be. But we don't
17 have that time.
18 MR. BERNARO: There is another point to be made. There
19 is nothing to prevent the use of this information in case-.
20 by-case policy by the licensing offices. The good example
21 is the.decommissioning study of reprocessing plants, which
22 shows that the decommissioning of a buried high level stainless
23 steel waste tank is no small problem; it is expensive,
24 it is a major factor in the decommissioning. If Barnwell I
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25 is to operate under some proposal for a demonstration plant
i I
_J 48
or experimental facility, NMSS can use this information directly
2 in determining do we want them to use two, three, or four
3 high level waste tanks, or are*we going to say that is only
- 4 a back-up.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: They are not going to be
6 reprocessing in the next year or two, but we are going to be
7 turning on reactors. So it seems to me *it would be nice to
8 have in hand an approach on decommissioning those plants
9 that we are truning on, or will be turning on.
10 I would assign pretty high priority to that.
11 MR. BERNARO: We will have a staff, you could call
12 it a NRC calculation of the cost of decommissioning a
13 reactor by several means. The staff will have available the --
14 technical feasibility judgment, the financial evalD:a,tion ---------------
15 can be used in the final evaluation. When we get to the PIRG
16 petition, you will see how we intend to early on treat the
17 question of should we change our £inancial requirements, go
18 for the bonding as they petition, or stick with 50.33 as we
19 presently do.
20 So there is an avenue for early action ori it.
21 But it.is not an attempt to have early general policy for
22 PWRs or for reactors of any kind. But early action is there.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: COuld you tell us about the
24 pie ti tion?
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25 MR. BERNARO: Okay. --
49
(Slide)
2 The PIRG petition_S0-22, we received it in July.
3 It specifically seeks that we pass-rules for assurance of
4 reactor decommissioning by *surety bonds held in escrow
5 so that the present generation of electricity users pay for
6 the decommissioning of the plant.
7 They raise a point in that petition that is a
8 sensitive onew The allegation is made if we ever have a
9 serious reactor accident, all of the reactors will have to be
lO decommissioned at once, and therefore financial integrity goes
11 out the window as an index.
12 We will have to decommission 60 or 100 reactors in
13 one short span. We considered two ways to treat this.
14 (Slide)
15 We could treat it in this whole policy program,
16 and there is a natural resolution of the issues, minimum
l7 additional efforts to do that. ~There is a very serious draw-
18 back. It means two and a half years after the petitioner
19 petitioned us, we would come up with the answer. We felt
20 that was too long. We looked for separate early treatment,
21 a prompt response addressing only the issues raised by
22 the petitioner, not trying to solve all of the decommissioning
23 policy issues.
24 (Slide) i.
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25 We condluded that it was possible to have a short-50
range liaison with the states and FERC on the rate base
2 aspects. That is already underway.
3 We have a number of answers from state regulatory
4 commissions and the like and there seems to be unanimous
5 condemnation of the bonding as an expensive*and undesirable
6 way to do it.
7 We feel that it is reasonable to project determining
8 a staff position by this summer, and preparing -- I
9 say here a proposed rule. A proposed disposition of the
10 petition~ and that bar chart there presumes that it would be
11 a rule, but of course if the proposed disposition is a denial,
12 it would stop at that point.
13 It is on these grounds we believe and request your
14 approval to deal with the PIRG petition on this short-range
15 schedule.
16 Again, I emphasize dealing with the question shall
17 we use 50-33, financial integrity as the present practice
18 is, or shall we require surety bonds held in escrow as
19 petitioner.. requests.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Only that question?
21 MR. BERNARO: ::.only that question, yes, and not
22 going into any one of a host of alternatives of financing.
23 Our data base for making that judgment would be what
- 24 amounts to one solid round of liaison with the states and
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25 FERC in the PWR report. We would extrapolate from that and 51
say this is representative of BWRs as well, orders of magnitude.
2 We have a sense of dollars there, a sense of technology.
3 That is our data base for making this proposal.
4 So we propose the early thing.
5 (Slide)
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How much earlier is that?
7 MR. BERNARO: That comes out a year and a half earlier a It would be summer of '78 as against December '79.
9 July of '78. Fifteen months on paper.
10 There are related matters. Just to touch on them
11 briefly, a long-standing request for exemption~ started with
12 AEC, now DOE. The scrap recovery, improvement and upgrading
13 on the enrichment plants. There is a great deal of recovery,
14 it is contaminated with technetium and uranium. And they
15 request us to provide an exemption in the regulations so
16 that they can put that nicke1,principally the nickel and
17 copper and stainless steel out into the commercial market,
18 with low levels, but detectable levels of these two activities
19 in them.
20 Fuel cycle license renewals is a subject that relates
21 *to decommissioning, because of NMSS' efforts there. They
22 sent you a.paper, Secy 78-74, which gives the status of their
23 renewal activity in general and in particular touches on this
- 24 need for decommissioning,plans, this approach. They_
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25 have active with us a request for a clarification in the 52
rules, so they can point to something, at least one thing
2 in the regulations to say that material licensees. should consid r
3 decommissioning. We are _working on that and expect a paper in
4 about a month.
5 I mentioned before the abandoned sites program by
6 DOE that is going on, the high*priority oh abandoned sites.
7 And then analysis of all of their other facilities. We have
8 been asked to discuss decommissioning as a subject with
9 the State of Vermont.
10 (Comments missing at this point due to steno
11 changing paper.)
12 The curse of the whole waste management effort
13 is that it is so easy to justify putting it off for another
14 six months or a year or two years. So the greatest fear is
15 loss of momentum, loss of attention, loss of priority.
16 There is a potential problem with ~disagreement
17 on residue limits. We are dealing with EPA, their respon-
18 sibility, and all of the states.
19 Lastly, I want to emphasize again, waste disposal
20 capability. Decommissioning is a way to generate waste.
21 We are -talking about hundreds of thousands of cubic feet of
22 waste from a single facility. A single reactor might generate
23 a half million cubic feet of waste or more. A credible policy
- 24 on decommissioning a reactor is only credible if there are
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25 low level burial grounds, int-ermediate level burial grounds, 53
and high level burial grounds to accept that waste.
2 So this is an offshoot of the waste management
3 program in this regard.
4 I have no further remarks.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Thank you. That was a very
6 gOod briefing. It is good to see you 'taking it so
7 seriously.
- 8 But I do think, picking up*from your last comments,
9 that it would be good if we could move ahead even more
10 swiftly~
11 MR. BERNARO: We tried to accellerate--if you would
12 look at that schedule, the critical path is the BWR and we
13 tried. to jack up the BWR report as much as we could, and
14 tried to get another six...months out of that schedule, but
15 it is just not credible. The right manpower availability is
16 the problem.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I wonder if they are really
18 not too far apart, the BWRs and yWRs. Why can't one get
19 started with the PWRs, and then when you have to deal with.
20 BWRs, you will be able to use a lot of what you did on PWRs.
21 MR. BERNARO: Well, we are trying to use as much as
22 possible from one facility to the next. But there are
23 differences in the system.design of the two reactor types
- 24 that make us suspicious.that we are going to have all that
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25 much in common.
54
MR. MINOGUE: What is in common would carry forward.
2 It is the same basic group of people. *We have very high
3 quality people working on this project at Batelle.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why not go forward with a
5 rule on PWRs and it will have to be modified for BWRs?
6 MR. BERNARO: It might be worthwhile in structuring
7 what we see as a rule*. Will the rule be thou shalt decommission,
8 dismantle and clean up a site to some pristine status within
9 10 years of shutting it down, or within 50 years of shutting
10 it down; Or would the rule authorize entombment, or
11 dismantling at the option of the licensee?
12 It is such a general thing that I don't think it
13 is
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: WOuldn't it in any event
15 contemplate some facilitation of the decommissioning process
16 in the original icensing process, as you pointed out earlier?
17 MR. MINOGUE: Yes, evaluation thereof. Another
18 issue is the residual levels that are acceptable. The regulato y
19 guide does not have a well-thought-out basis. It
20 has veen very well accepted, it has been around for years.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What would you say would
22 happen for BWRs between now and the beginning of 1980,
23 when we would be coming forward with some kind of* a rule?
24 MR. BERNARO: The cost, the technical feasibility, 0.ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 the impact of decommissioning is there on the record, we have
the analysis of it. That will be used case-by-case by NMSS.
55
But there wouldn't be any *rule saying we won't give
2 you an operating license unless you recognized that the
3 regulations will require you to decontaminate the site totally
4 in ten years after shut down.
- 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why would you be smarter:-~ to
6 deal with that in 19 8 0 than say this year?*
7 MR. BERNARO: Because then you will have looked at the
8 whole range of facilities this agency deals with. And you 9 can have then a consistent policy.
10 MR. MINOGUE: And you have time to get more feedback
11 from EPA, and the various state agencies that are involved.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Did I read you have feedback
13 from what, 17 or 18 states now?
14 MR. BERNARO: Yes, 16. That's replies on this PIRG
15 petition. And eight of t~em have~-
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That is only a relatively narrow
17 aspect of what*you really want *to know from the states. You
18 want to be able to get out to them with a range of decommissioni g,
19 concepts, talk to them in terms of what decommissioning is.
20 MR. BERNARO: Yes. Many of the states in their*
21 responses are coming up with questions, saying while we are on
22 the subject, we would like to talk about residual activity
~ 23 levels and what you ought to be doing is coming up with
24 sound criteria and costs.
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25 MR. MINOGUE: And long-term land use questions 56
enter into this also.
2 CHAIRJ.1.1.AN HENDRIE: An interesting discussion.
3 Perhaps those of you who are not affected with* t_he current
4 plague have cleaner heads. I have observed we have gone about
5 a half hour beyond what we projected. I think it has been
6 an excellent briefing on a rather serious -subject,.and has bee
7 one which has long needed some careful thinking.
8 In the staff paper, the staff just made some
9 recommendations about choices with regard to going with reg
10 guides,*or going with rule-making on decommissioning.
11 There is the further question raised, that you have V
12 raised as well, can this rule-making be broken down into the
13 general versus some sort of a series of perhaps first the
14 smaller ones, would that. make it ge> __ ~~E:1_"1=~~: __
15 Also there is a question of the disposition of the
16 PIRG petition. Should it be considered separately, in
17 advance, or wait for this whole procedure to move on.
18 I must say 1 find myself sort of stuffed full of
19 information which I am grateful to have, and feeling rather
20 fiercely the need for respite from having to make decisions
21 on this point at this time.
22 I furthermore feel the need to go and call assorted
23 people about our favorite gas. cooled reactor at the moment.
24 I wonder if the Commission would agree with me that
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25 it would be :useful if the staff here on this issue would sharpe 57
now for us the issues we have been discussing in the last
2 half hour and we schedule a further Commission meeting on it to
3 sort of proceed on with the momentum developed in this
4 briefing and discussion, to see if we can't make a decision
5 on the matter? How does that strike you?
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That is *fine with me. I
7 don't know there is much further sharpening needed. What did
8 you have in mind?
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, for instance, if we chose
10 to go in a rule-making mode as compared to regulatory guides and
11 so on for decommissioning, there is a Federal Register
12 notice draft which is attached hereto. OPE suggests
13
- that. it seems to them somewhat loosely framed, and perhaps
14 open-ended.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Did they send us a memo in
16 this regard?
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: They suggest it might be useful
18 to discuss, and to have a little clearer view in mind of
19 what would go on in that rule-making. And perhaps then to
20 reflect that insofar as we can foresee it in the draft notice.
21 I think some discussion back and forth *between
22 OPE and Standards and so on might help to develop that
- 23 point, and then at the next meeting on this subject, perhaps
24 that could be presented in a fairly focused way.
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25 We now have this substantial base we can work on.
58
I just have the notion that the discussion is likely to
2 continue for another 30 or 40 minutes, and I *would still
3 have a little trouble finding a distinct consensus out of the
.. 4 Commission. That may be my own faultiness of head at the
5 moment.
6 MR. DIRCKS: I think we would appreciate some time
7 to sharpen the analysis of that one point, of should we
8 go for individual rules or what. I think we can come back
9 with something on that point. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. I will look for us to try
11 to schedule this fairly soon, that is, you come back to us and
12 give us some papers for the next meeting. I guess I am
13 saying I don't feel the need that these be the most formal
14 pieces of paper. I think getting back to it, before the
15 memory of this session ahs gone out of our heads would be
16 useful.
17 Thank you very much.for an excellent presentation.
18 (THereupon at 5:10 p.m. the briefing was
19 concluded.)
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