ML20138L619
| ML20138L619 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 08/02/1984 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20138L611 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-85-59 NUDOCS 8512200003 | |
| Download: ML20138L619 (38) | |
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, ; UNITED STATES OF AMERICA f NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l j TECHNICAL REVIEW TEAM o 3
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6 TECHNICAL INTERVIEW I 1
7-8 9
10 Thursday, August 2, 1984 12 '
This interview was commenced at 9:50 a.m. . l g, l l
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14 .- o l PRESENT: !
15 i MR. DICK WESSMAN, Technical Review Te'am Staff l:
16 l Nuclear Regulatory Commission washington, D.C. 20555 ,
f 17 1 ..
MR. CHARLES HOFFMAYER, Technical Review Team Staff , h 18 Nuclear Regulatory Commission I ,
Washington, D,C, 20555 ; I 19
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MR. LARRY SHAO, Technical Review Team Staff j 20 Nuclear Regulatory Commission G Washington, D.C. 20555 3 3
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- PROCEEDINGS ,
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3 MR. WESSMAN: For the record, this is an interview 1 4 of for the purpose of clarifying some of the 5 concerns that Bob has raised to the NRC concerning activi-6 ties at the Comanche Peak facility; primarily relating 7 to drilling in the concrete an'd possible cutting of rebar.
8 The l'ocation of this interview is.at home 9 in Fort Worth. Present at the interview are Charlie 10 Hoffmayer from the NRC, Larry Shoa from the NRC, and I
- g am Dick Wessman and I am from the NRC. Also present is 12' As agreed,the interview is being" transcribed.
13 And the NRC will ask h few questions that we have y regarding the technical aspects of concrete drilling and 15 Possible cutting of rebar. I want to clarify your 16 current employment and your employment while you were at g7 Comanche, Peak; so if.you would, tell me briefly what ,i l
18 y u're doing now and tell me briefly about your employ-g9 ment and your activities at Comanche Peak.
I Well, now, b a s i c a l-l y , I'm just 20 21 P i cking up odd jobs wherever I can. I've turned in t several applications at several places and never called ;
again; never heard from since. As far as my position 23
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out at Comanche Peak, I worked out there approximately 25 fi"* Y""#8' l
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And that went on for six, 9
eight months. And then, I went into the inquesting rebar j drill from Drillco; and I had that approximately -- I II don't even know now. I't was about eight, nine months, I <
' 12
- I think.' And then, I went back into pipe supports in
, the containment / reactor one; and I stayed there until
, I was busted back in June of '82. I was busted back to f
15
-! my tools. And then, I did strictly' layout working as
~
16 a journeyman, layout man, in hanging pipe supports and 17 and small boards.
t MR.WESSMAN: When did you leave your employment at 19 Comanche Peak?
i
' 'l MR. SHAO: You worked for TUDCO or you worked for
. 99 Brown and Root?
I worked for Brown and Root.
MR. WESSMAN: we have lcoked at the statement 23 i
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And we were also provided .
3 I think most .
i 4
of the concerns that you raise,d in those documents were 5
quite clear and we were.able to understand what your issue 6 is, and our technical review group that's currently on 7
the site now is going to pursue those and determine the l safe,ty significance of these issues. We have a few 8
9 specific questions that we raised out of those documents,;
and I'm going to let Charlie and Larry raise these !
10 questions with you; and then, if you have additional 11 issues that you feel we 'should focus on, we~ want to know 12 that, too.
13 So, Charlie, go ahead with your questions then, if you're ready.
14 MR. HOFFMAYER: All right. basically, my questions center around your log, which was attached to the I believe you gave it to him at that time. This is the same log; isn't it?
18 Yec.
MR. 33FFMAYER: I'm sure you're more familiar with 20 it than I am. What I'm trying to understand is when 21 I look at the log -- It's a lot easier for you because i
22 you obviously took -- It's very detailed. (Mr. Hoffmayer ,
hands log to' j
. unusums - e ze -
,i MR. WESSMAN: Let 's ao o f f the record .
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(Off the record.) ;
2 i
1 3
MR. WESSMAN: We're back on the record now. Go l
4 4 ahead {lll 5
This is a log that I kept when I' 6
was operating that Drillco machine in rebar cutting.
I Basically, it's a print number. It's a location as far as areas, such as safeguard, auxiliary, so forth; which .
is self-explanatory. This rebar' cut is the rebar that I 10 actually cut, the percentage of it that.'was. cut, . which Il way the rebar was running -- vertically, horizontally or 19
~
north, south, east or west -- if it was a floor cut.
13 This is the day and date that I cut them. And this is I4 the position that I cut them in; whether it was --
15 (Referring to log and explaining to Mr. Hoffmayer.')
16 MR. HOFFMAYER: Well, do you mean -- like in some I7 ways, you noted' floor or wall, and that's what you were --
18 Right. It's a position. And it I9 also states what paper werk I had to cut them. Basically, 20 that's what that is.
21 '
MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. That was my understanding of it.
22
- I guess U-t(e main thing I'd like to focus on right now 3
o3 is this column that says "rebar cut". t Like say, going 34 down the first p$g,e -i.I'm trying 'to understand from 25 this log -- s'metimes o you mad'e cuts or you made drills (
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I l and you drilled holes and you didn't hit rebar where there 2
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was none of it cut. In other cases, I can see clearly 3
that there are notations on here that says " ten percent 4
depth" ground indicated being cut.
5 Right.
' 0 MR. HOFFMAYER: What I'm trying to determine is,
- l in my view, looking down the log, is to be able to dis-tinguish between when you cut rebar and when you just 9
drilled holes and did not cut rebar; and maybe - could 1
10
'you clarify--like coming down this list, how would you 11 determine from here the first time you feel that you cut 12 rebar, as to the way it would be indicated?
13 All right. The first cut; it was 14 a two and a half inch-depth and it was r.unning north a'nd 15 south. (Referring to log.) -
16 ' '
MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. .So,- that's not a depth' of II drill?
18 No. That's where I hit the rebar at.
19 That's the depth I hit the rebar at. Okay. It was twc 20 and a half inches in the concrete and .it was running 21 north'and south. And -I didn' t start keeping percentage -
22 .wisb.'until .further tack in the pages. (Referring to log.)
23 MR. HOFFMAYER: Yeah, l
24 ,
And I think -- which all of us do 25 that, I think, when we have a log, you know, after we get i
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into it we realized we wanted to keep track of. Upper 2
supervision wanted to know approximately the amount of 3
rebar I cut out.
4 All this is documented out there. All this, I had paper work to do. Basically, this is what 5
the list is for.
6 MR. HOFFMAYER: So, on the second page, about the 7
middle,.I' start seeing notations: Depth four inches, 8
ten percent cut.
Right. That means that I took out 10 ten percent -- I don' t know if you've seen this saachine, 11 but it's a hollow drill.- It's like a piece of pipe with 12 drill bits on it, and when you drill it, whatever -- the 13 core of it stays in the drill, and when this core was 14 taken out after each hole, then I determined the amount 15 '
.rebar and went through -- I can't even think of his 16 name now, but I went through th'e engineer that issued 17 u t
the CMC's and stuff, and I would shes him and he would 1 L
18 ii tellmehhatsizerebaritwasandthen, I would determine u
j 19 the amount eercentage-wise to cut out of that rebar. lg 20 6
MR. HOFFMAYER: So, ,just to go back and clarify jw 21 this, this first one'is an instance where you would say ;j L'
on
4 that you cut rebar. r3 3.~
Right.
94 MR. HOFFMAYER: But it doesn't indicate; for example, d q
25 E like you did later, the percantage-wise cut. a 8
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j MR. HOFFMAYER: So, all of these on the first three 1 3
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go.'ng down here - or even say -- What is tha.s? About i 4
the' tenth'one down? The bottom of the first grouping.
Yeah.
MR. HOFFMAYER: The 704. Now, that says -- What 7 l would that say?
8 Vertical at two and a half inches. .
9
- MR. HOFFMAYER
- But does that mean, in this case, 10 .
you went down two and a half inches and you hit rebar?
.Right. And cut it.
, 12 MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. And even in this grouping 13 here, these wculd be all the instances of cut rebar?
14 (Referring to log.)
Riglit. -
16 .
(MR.'HOFFMAYER: 'Okay. And the same with this 17 ..
third grouping dwon where -- This is really more of a 18 notification for like, CMC 00979 -- In this case, you 19 kind of just wrote it across.
Right. This one, I cut rebar.
21 This one -- This was more or less for to protect me 2
because my boss was wanting production and saying, "What 23 are you doing?" And he come back and this was to show 24 that I drilled eighty-one holes with a hilti gun. This
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'was twenty-six holes, drilled full depth with Drillco and mM, _ _ , _ _ _ _ - . - . , . _,~w: e _m
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a hilti gun, but no rebar was cut. i 2 Well, it was just a !
hilti bolt gun due to wire mesh. In other words, .I hit 3
wire mesh in the concrete. (Referring to log.) And this 4
5 was twenty-five holes, drilled at full depth with full core rebar removed. (Referring to log.)
6 All right. All rebar running east and west. What was done here, now:
7 (
These twenty-five holes that I drilled there, 8 . I got a 1
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9 full cora of rebar -- solid round core of rebar. So, '
10 whatever rebar was running on these twenty-five holes, I cut a full -- whatever si ze the hol'e was , I cut a full 11 bolt in that reabar. Now, see,'the outer hole was like, i 12
't s " ,
13 anywhere up to a inch and a quarter, but the actual inner .
i hole core I got out was actuaily'an inch.
14
- ' MR. HO,FFMAYER: When you drilled in, you came out '
15
'with the metal. . ~
That's .ight. The full core of 17 metal.
18 MR. HOFFMAYER: So, that's what that would indicate?
19 (Referring to item on log.)
Right.
MR. WESSMAN: Now, this foregoing discussion is
,9
'all on the first page of the log sheet.
23 MR. HOFFMAYER: It seems after this as you went 24 on in the later pages, most of the time you cut rebar, 25 you indicated the percentage.
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t MR.. HOFFMAYER: I noticed mainly on the first page l 3
that that didn't s.eem to follow. ,
4 The first page was basically, they ,
5 didn't know what procedure they needed or what type of 6 '
work.they needed to actually cut rebar. Some were cut 7
on an RFIC. Some were cut on 'a CMC. Some were cut on 8
a three part memo. Until they established what was legal or what paper work was needed and who'd -- I think the 1
10 civil engineer is the one that issued the papers. They're 11 the only ones that could issue the paper and I couldn't I
legally cut a hole until I~got this piece of paper. I
. 13 i mean, the plant manager couldn't come up and tell me to
" I4
. cut a hole.
15 ,,
.MR.[HOFFMAYER: All right. Now,.when I look through.
I0 most of thi document, in most instances that I see when i 17 I went through it, I see CMC's or'a documentation that I I8 corresponds to where you cut rebar.
I9 "
True. .
20 MR. HOFFMAYER: Now, do you know of any instances 21 in this par'ticular log where you could say where iou 22 ~
knowingly cut rebar and there was not a corresponding 3
document?
24 That's the mistake I made out'there.
25 I should have kelt a log book on instances that wasn't legal.
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1 I s This is ninety-nine percent legal. All this is legal I g
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documentation. My mistake was not making a log on~ stuff 4
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that I was ordered to do other than the legal stuff. !
4 .
h MR. HOFFMAYER: My problem when I look at this -- That j 5
was my impression and I wanted to understand if I'm missing }
6 -
1 something here. y 1
No. TR t is -- ninety-nine and 8
j three. quarter percent of that would be legal. I mean, 9 ;
there's paper work.and documuntation backing all of that' - c 10 up. l l 3
11 I
MR. WESSMAN:
to~ i Ewecantakethatthenandgo !
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.. x back:intoteach of thea CMC's and find the results of the 1
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E 13 engineering disposition,and analysis for everyone of your i j
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' cuttings .' " . t '. '
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Shere should be documentation on .-
16 every hole that is in that log because that is every 1
g 2 hole that I drilled legally. M
- 1
- IS MR. WESSMAN: Well, we can certainly test each example 19 !!
of those and see whether there's a docum.entation problem. j 20 'I Now, you say there ar~e some that were not legal, to use-
- l
~ M your term; do you'have any specific. locations you can y 2'9 F-...
send us to or ways that we might try and assess the )'
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23 L sign.ificance of those that didn't get logged? ;
s 24 Without going out.there and putting my finger on something, I doubt if I could -- It's been so ;-
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1 long since I've been out there and things change -- You 2
go work in a place a month and go back and you don't 3
realize there's anything being done in that month, but 4
you come back after a month and you say, "My God, where 5 '
did all this stuff come from?" But as far as saying, 6
"Go to wall A, wire Z," there's no way I could do that.
~
7 MR. HOFFMAYER: "Which structures did you work on?
I worked on everything out.there in the plant except the dam. I had access to every 10
.bu'ilding'a*nd c'ut reb,ar[.i'n every building except reactor 33 '.
- one'or colitainment onei'9hich is the same. That's the ,
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' only building that.I did not cut'rebar in.
. MR. SHAO: Except containment, one, you worked on 14 '
other concrete buildings. -
Right. 'That!'s the only building 16 I did'not cut rebar in, to my knowledge. Now, I loaned 17 out rebar drills under orders, that went into that 18 -
containment building, and what was done, I couldn't tell !
s 19 i you because I wasn't there.
20 MR. SHAO: What was this other rebar? -
Rebar number
'l eleven or number eight -- not number eighteen, actually.
Really, I don't know without looking i at the drawings. It just depends becase we were down in 24 lower auxiliary building and safeguard building, 790 i I
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i I think that was his name. He was the civil engineer. You I know I 3
MR. HOFFMAYER: I don't know him. I've seen his 4
name on some CMC's.
He worked with one of the hanger groups out there. He's an engineer. He's the one that I 7
issued where to send them to.
8 .
MR. SHAO: He's the one that issued these --
. . . 'Right.
10 '
~-
MR. HOFFMAYER: These CMC authorizations that I
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{"said. .
'Right. And we went down there 13 -
and that's when I went over the rebar and we'were drilling 14 .
inch and a quarter holes, and "when we went over the rebar drawings, come to find out that the square part was less 16 than an inch. There was'that much rebar down there and 17 we couldnt' drill. This was when we were trying to drill 18 ~
the holes for hanging. cable tray supports with hilti drills.
19 .
They were just impossible. You'd drill seventy, eighty 20 holes and never get two out of four holes that went up 21 on the wall. And that's when they redesigned it and 2,' -
went to a different deal and we started cutting rebar 23 do.wn there.
MR. HOFFMAYER: All right. We brought up several 25 subjects at once. I'd like to get back to the log and
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l then, maybe we can get into this other.
All right.
3 MR. HOFFMAYER: Just with regard to the log, do 4 you recall instances on this log where you cut rebar --
5 alotofrebarinoneareaasopposedto--[
6 I can't remember the exact place, I
-but they called it a tunnel .- that come out of reactor one.
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T.here' - w' as a. tunnel.....down'
, there . We had one hellacious 9 .. owner,down there that, cut just -- Well, they're humongous
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- plates going on' the wall. They were an inch and a half,
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,.,o t inch' 11 plates','and there were several hilti. bolts that 12 had to hold t; hose plates up, and they were having -- just 13 like I said before, they couldn't get a.hilti drill in
'14 there, so they called my rebar crew down there and we
~ .
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15 drilled ungodly amount o5' holes down there in tihis
. 16 tunnel. - Basically, they were just scattered around .
17 everywhere. But this was -- in fact, this was the only
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18 one where we did a majority. .We went in this tunnel, 19 say a hundred feet long.and'just drilled'rebar every- ,
. 20 where.
- - 21 MR. HOFFMAYERi Let me show you this~ age. It's
.. 22 the ei'ghth page, and I guess the best way to denote it,
'. 23 it's'the fifth column. It shows CMC 3307. Is this
- 24 the area -- I've seen you mention before this tunnel )
. 25 area, and I'm just trying to characterize it as -- I l l
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noticed on this particular page and the followine page -- l l
2 as you can see, it's a substantial area where you did a 3
, lot of cutting. Is this --
It's possible. These numbers don't 5
mean nothing to me anymore. .
MR. HOFFMAYER: I'm just trying to understand. I'm not trying 'to pin you-~down in any way. If this is the
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g,.seryi'e'w'a'ter'.,- ;SWI,must be service water.
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.,.', Okay. That's probably what it was.
10
. Service water intake. I think that was one of the tunnels 11 that we done all this cutting in. I don't know if I'
they've done anymore since.
13 MR. HOFFMAYER: Because I noticed on a later page --
I4 about three pages back, we'had a series of CMC's labeled r'
15 3664 through 3669. They also appear to be the same 16 elevation -- the same general location as this, and I 17 believe -- I thought the word " tunnel" was noted here.
18 But that, in my looking at the log, seemed like an area 19 where there was quite a bit of cutting and.I wanted to 20 understand from your point of view: Would that be an 21 area you would characterize as being a substantial amount 22 of cutting taking claue?
23 If it's in that tunnel --If that's 24 7 the general area, then, yes, I done a. lot of cutting down n-
-3 there.
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16.
MR. WESSMAN: Are there some of these unauthorized 2
or illegal cuts in that tunnel area?
To my knowledge, no. But when 4
,you're running fifteen, twenty men, you don't know if )
~
5 :
" theyre gaing to keep.it up to snuff when you've got them 6
in -- like I say, I had that whole plant and I was just 7 .
'on a dead run and you can'c watch fifteen, twenty men 8 .
1
'when you've'got'them scattered all over that job site. I 9
MR. WESSMAN: Okay.
- ~!
10 MR. HOFFMAYER: One other question I had about the
" log is the next to the last page, and at the top of the
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i log, right'below the first'line, there's a notation here which says, " Ordered to drill by floor, SWI". That's the only notation I noticed on this
: 15 log like that, and I was curious -- I also note'd under 16 the rebar cut depth / direction column, right below that, 4 it says, "None" with a question mark.
r" 18 Like I said, that's ninety-nine and something percent pu're. And that would be one of the
'. s 20
-- I must have been mad that day and wrote that in there W n ', 21 at g because i.s'the one that I hiive stated severai
- . 22 times that I was ordered to loan out my drills, I was i
23 ordered to drill several holes -- I'm talking in the
.. - '4 hundreds -- by him that was not authorized, and he was,
- - ,3
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at that time, a three striper, which was above my two I
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i' striper, and I went to my two striper, I
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said, he's ordering me to do this."
1 lie said, 3
" Man, what can -I .do? He's my boss." I said, "Well, he's
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, e eithe: ordering me to do it or hit the road. And I'm $
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C not going to. throw away a forty thousand dollar a year H
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6 job when I'm, practically'-- other than paper work, I'm l not doing nothing to earn it." And this would be one n d
8 j
5 of the deals in there where he ordered me to do it. This 9 3 was up on -- I can't remember where it's at that that !
a 10 was. Ithinkitwasuponthedebk; whet they call a II turbin deck.
Ig 12 :r' MR. WESSMAN: What's the last;name of this individual 'I 13 that you were --
h I4 He later resigned -
15 and went back to welding.
~
As far as I know, he's'still 1 16 out there welding. He was under only. That's
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II the only guy he had to answer to. ?
f I8 MR. WESSMAN: Okay. LN j
I9 MR. HOFFMAYER: But in this particular column, it
- 20 says, "None". The impression I have here is that you "
21 did not -- you drilled those hole's, but did not cut rebar. --
22
.. Obviously, it's so many years ago, it's hard to remember, g 3
(A 23 but --
}pl 24 '79. Yeah. It's a long time ago.
25 I can't honestly answer you because I don't remember.
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MR.:HOFFMAYER: One other thing that brings to 3
mind en this column: I noticed under the day and date, in' t5[e right hand ' par't of that column, t.here 's a circled number. assulne th'at that'is the number of holes drilled 6
he this location; is that correct?
Correct.
8 MR. HOFFMAYER: Now, most of the time, most of 9
these pages show that even -- On many cases, there are 10 ones, but there are other numbers.
' II
. 'A lot of times, see, I'd be called 19-out on a job and they would have three holes in a four 13 holer plate, and all I'd have to dg.is get the fourth hole ,
14 and basically, hit it with the hilti drill, and then, I 15 would come out and they would issue the CMC to cut the
- . 16 fourth hole because they had tried so many holes and 17 couldn't get it. That's why a lot of times, I'd go 18 out and set up and drill one hole and go about my bt.siness.
I9 MR. HOFFMAYER: I think that's basically all I
. 20 3 have about the log. I have several'other cuestions. One m . 21 thing'I'd like to un'derstan'd, when'you made these' drillt
.. 22 and you drilled to the rebar, this was the Drillco machine, 23 and I understand it has a water cooling device.
- 24 True.
- 25 MR. HOFFMAYER: How long does that take, approximately, I
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p - . _ - _ - ~ _ _ _ . . _ . ._-. -- - ----
r- 19, t I i on an average, to make a drill?
It depends on the size of the hole 3 .
or how
-- I mean, if you know anything about steel, you 4
can get some termperat'e steel -- you can get some steel 5 '
in there that's.just hard ac can be, and you can go any-6 where from fifteen minutes a hole to as much as -- there's 7
one hole.down there in. auxiliary that I burned out, I 8 ..-
think it was nine inch and a quarter drills that took me 9
like four hours to get to a piece of rebar, and these 10 drills were a hundred and something dollars apiece, and II -
there was -- I think it was nind drills that I burned out.
12 So, it varies. It just' depend's on the rebar and how long 13 it takes and your set up time. Are you talking set up 14
'~.
time or the actual drilling time?
15 MR. HOFFMAYER: Well, all. If one wanted to go 16 4 '.
out and cut a rebar, from the time you would have the 17 -
m machine and got to the point where you would achieve this 18 A job?
It would be anywhere from fifteen
~ 20 M minutes to two hours on the average.
21 6.;
MR. HOFFMAYER: Now, fifteen minutes would be cutting a small rebar?
Would be cutting a sm'll a rebar.
24 MR. HOFFMAYER: Anything of sinnificant size, it 25 -
would take'how long?
_.....m. ~ _ - . - -
g ,
. , - - . . -- . c._.__.. -
. t
- l. . ?n-g
! i MR. MESSERLY: Oh, I woul' .ay anywhere from --
o
~ ~
If it was, say, two' inch diameter rebar, I'd say it would 3
take an)where from forty-five minutes to two hours.
4 MR..HOFFMAYER: And that would be with water cooling?
, Right .-
6 MR. HOFFMAYER: And how many people would that take?
Usually, I.sent two to three people l- on a crew, on each machine. .
9 i MR. HOFFMAYER: Could one person do that, do you
' 10
. think?
. Yeah. Without a mzchine.
. 12 .
MR. HOFFMAYER: Well, maybe clarify that. What i
- 13 si do you mean, "without a machine"?
>i. Well,'let me* find out where you're f trying to get at and --
16 ~
t e.; MR. HOFFMAYER: Well, I'm trying to understind if
.! 17 someone were doing this ' unauthorized, how big a group and
- 18
- 1. t how long would it take him to achieve this?.
One ma'n'--~What you're trying to
. 20
.. get at, I think, is I stated several times that I loaned
". 21 -
these drills out. Your other NRC people said it was no 4
~~
. ')')
=
. way in hell that they could drill a hole without the
- , 23 water cooling machine. I called him a liar then. And I'll
.* 24 take anybody out there i-ight now and I'll take a half inch
' 25
- _ drill motor, I'11 take one of them drills'and I will drill a
> -- - - ._ . ._-_..; - w, u w=..u. . ,.
-7'
~
21.
I hole'through rebar. And all you need is a bucket of water 2
and a plug in. That's all you need. Because I named
.3 several people that I was ordered to give -- I don't 4
remember their names now, but I named several people out there that I was ordered by thiG to loan out 6 \ /
my drills, Now, wher'e my water cooling machine may take 7
one crill, they might take a half 7 dozen drills to drill 8 .
.the same h, ole. But I have seen it done out there. I e 9 have seen ~it done with my own eyes where a man took a n half inch drill, a bucke't.of water, a paper cup, and sat 11 there and poured water on it and d' rilled a hole through 12 rebar.
13 MR. HOFFMAYER: And I take it, that was unauthorized.
Definitely.
n 15 l
.,- .. MR . HOFFMAYER: Is there any way to characterize '
' 16
' i I
how many times this may have occurred? -
r- In the time I had it, I would say
- in the hundreds of times of drill bits that I loaned out 19 that I know for a fact were drilled by actual holes that
., ordered my crew to drill with the machine.
{
- 21 /
.: There's hundreds of holes out there. They're scattered
.r ,
all over out there from one side of the job site to the 23 other and all in between; except, I never worked in reactor 24 two or containment two and no holes were drilled that I
~ 25 !
know of in reactor one or containment one. l l
- -.-,w- ,%,___.__ _ _ _ _
_ _ m e. - .
. o . m . , _ m , <.m . - . , _..-,...-m ; ,, . _... _ _ _
G
_ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ ~ - - _ _ . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^ - - - ' - '
~~
^ ~
. . . . . . . . ', . . . . . . . _ . . . - C - - T - ~ "- ~ --
7,-
22.
I MR. HOFFMAYER: So, when they borrowed this machine 2
to drill these holes, was it their intention to drill 3
through concrete or was it specifically their intent to 4
drill through --
5 You don't need the machine to drill 6
through concrete. You've got hilti drills out there.
7 MR. HOFFMAYER: In other words, h'ilti drills are 8
,. . more than adequate ~to drill through the concrete.
9 More than sufficient.
1 10
- MR. HOFFMAYER: It'wouldn't be that someone would
'I II 7 ., like to do the job a little quicker and therefore, got 12 '
. the better dri11'?
13 This would not do it any quicker I I4 than a hilti drill. 'The only thing this would. drill, f! 15 if you ran into anything, the drill would go through 16 anything you hit.
i -
r (
' II MR..NESSMAN: fet me characterize and understand 18 g n; this magnitude a little better. You said, to your knowledge,
I9 gg over the period of time 'that you were out there, yo.u
- O
. ., , , believe there are hundreds of these holes all over the
" 'j>
site.
9 . ., - Now, you.were there for several years and lots of f
. 22 holes were drilled properly and with docu.'nentation. Can
3 you give me any feel for what " lots of holes" would be 24 that were done properly? Are we talking like ten thousand 5
or nine hundred or maybe literally a million holes? Do you
- e. . am. e.- _ __
L.
. - i
, ... ~~
~
i I 2_%
l ,
have a feel for the magnitude.of holes that are done out l
there?
Man, no way. You're talking numbers I can't count that high..
5 l MR. SHAO: What percentage-wise? Very s.nall
! 6 percentage?
I 7 8
'You mean correctly or incorrect'y?
MR. SHAO: Incorrectly.
9 Incorrectly,. I would say as much as 10 ,
twenty percent -- incorrectly holes -- in the time that I 11 had the Drillco machine.
I would say as much s twenty.
'.. 12 percent. See, what y'all don't realize --
13 You 8
14 are pounded in yotr head down there constantly, daily, ,
~
> > 15 '
hourly: Production. Prodt btion. Production. .. That's
. .. 16 what you're screamed at. An9 you go out -- and that one page says that I drilled eight-seven holes. I'have C
. IS drilled as much as a hundred holes on.a four bolt pattern 19
!. and not got a bolt pattern that I could get past QC within
'O the tolerances they allowed you in your specifics -- what, 21 6.9.
Now this is the frustration' you got and you ' ve got.
22 a foreman and a supervisor that you contended saying,
.. 23
,,g a n , I want it on the damn wall. I don't care how you
. 21 J. ::
do it. Just get it up there." This is what I screamed
- 2. .
~
.from the beginning. Nobody realizes the pressure unless
.j u .a ~.== . - - - - - - -
9
~1.
. - - - r 24.
g they go out there and sit down underneath that supervision 2
you've got out there. And a gup will do anything to get l 3
that up and get than man off of his back.
MR. SHAO: They just try to rush you, huh?
5 You're pushed constantly. And that 6
man's sitting up there -- Everybody answers to somebody 7
else. But the man that's doing the actual work is the 8
one suffering. .Because he's drawing that payroll. He's 9
,got a family. He's making thirty-five, forty thousand 10 dollars a year, and he's going to do what he's told.
II 7, And if he can shorten -- I've sat there and watched hilti 12 bolts being welded on the back of the plates so they I3 could make a tort. But I'm' talking out of my.,' sense --
I 84
.; why.would I make up.anything like this? ,
I ain't making
'. ; 15 y,
no money at it. -
16 g .,,, HR. WESSMAN:
Okay. Let's go back to the~other
" II questions that you have, if we can','Ch'arlie.
- I8 g MR. HOFFMAYER: You may have' answered this and I9
- ., may5e we can go over it if you have. With regard to
- d. 20 q; yourself or your own crew, most of . hat you've done is 21
,3 dc uented, but I guess you did say earlier that you did ;
i
. 22 g do a lot of drilling and didn't document it here. !
'3
~ -
(Referring to log sheet.)
i 2
f 24
'Yes. I did. i 5
- MR. HOFFMAYER: .
Okay. That drill through rebar. }
t' i.
j -
,~
. 25. m.
Right.
~
MR. HOFFMAYER: Now, in terms of what's in this 3
log as opposed to what you drilled that was undocumented, 4
is there some way of characterizing the amount?
No. .Except, I would say --- I keep.
6 ~
falling back on hundreds, but I would say my crew actually 7 '
drilled maybe five percent of these holes. All these holes are correct. But I'd say five percent more that I was 9
ordered personally by my crew to drill. Now, this is 10 just by my crew only.
11 MR. HOFFMAYER: But'from this log, the number of
.. 12 holes that were drilled -- If we added up all the rebar
'~
I3 '
that you cut, you'd say maybe about another fiv.e percent i 14 of the amount that you cut would be unauthor,ized?
15
,. Unauthorized cutting.that I. didn't -
at 16 have the paper work for and was ordered'to do so by the
~; II
- n same ,
I8 MR. HOFFMAYER: This log is pretty sequential in I9 3
terms of the days. Well, I shouldn't say this, but my
- . 20 vg impression is it's a pretty accurate documentation of the 21 g '. time that you spent there.
~
22
. Trtie .
3 '
~ -
MR.'HOFFMAYER: Ok'ay. So, within each day, you
. r .- .
24 may have cdt one-or '- Well, whatever the five percent 5
comes out to be extra, during this time period or was it r
M
- -.. e ,m m ., . s .
....m. .. , , _ , ,,,m,_ ._m .-
- s. , ;,, - a, w. .a ,. , -: l
~
i
'7
~ 26.
l -
another, time?
2 MR. MESSERLY: I would say daily,I cut -- I was 3
told.to cut; within a six day period, I wduld sa~y four 4
days of that six day period, I might have one or to hol' ,
daily that were illegal -- my crew -- under orders.
6 MR. HOFFMAYER: All right. I won't attempt to ask you wher and when because -- I mean, we've asked you i
8 .
this so many times and -- -
I can't. I've been asked by 10
. f. eve,rybody and there's just no way. Things change. You're II talking '79 when I done this and they have also~had the
~
.: 'I same knowledge out there and the people ~that has ordered
.. 13 knows where it's at and they've had chances to change it.
14 1 -
MR. WESSMAN: Let me ask'that question.~a slightly
- I different way. Can you think, perhaps, of any particular
~'
16 ss.ngle example of one of these unauthorized cuts where,
-?
by virtue of other circumstances'or disagreement or some-
. 1.s thing, that this sticks out in your mind and you might
~
19 point us to that particular singular example?
. The only oneI can think of would~
. 21 '
, be',o'v*er there'on the turbin deck'around them bih tanks
~~
that are covered; _they got that aluminum covering on them; it the tanks.on top of the. turbin deck. I don't know if --
' t they* mi.ght b'e' '. unde r' 'roo f by now, but there was several in
- a. c. over l
_ t - ___
.-.....w.. . , , ~ . , . , . . . . . , - , - . . , , . . -
.- .-. - . -. ~. ~ _
...~ 27. ~l, 3
-l drilling the holes, where you got a look-out here and a
~
a look-out there and start drilling holes; and we had a 3
big argument and my whole crew was over there,and there were several drilled in that area; I'd say maybe. twenty-five holes di-illed .in that area on that turbin deck that 6
were nondocumented holes.
. MR. WESSMAN: Do you recall which end of the turbin 8 :
, . deck? Were they near.the' generator end of the turbin or 9
the turbin --
' Well, it wo'1~d u be near the -- them II tanks run this way down,through there, and then,'the turbin
- is over here on turbin one, and it woul'd be in that general 13 area where them long tanks are. And there was also about
' ~
14 -
five I know that hilti bolts are welded on the back side
,1,* in order to get a tort to in ,that same area. -
16 MR. WESSMAN: Is this at the end of the turbin deck,
-g
' 1 closest to.,the reactor building or at the far end of thef ,
turbin deck? ,,
I
,;, You know where.that' overhead crane 7
' 'O is that goes'over the tilrbin?
t '~ 21 . .
', g :. . JNR.'!WESSMAN: -
Yeah. But it moves back and forth
.- 22 on rails., ,
,, : That's what I'm talking about. If
. ., , - you was --
25 MR. HOFFMAYER: This is unit one; right?
-. ~ . -
.< w.m.. a..,a.; w : w w ,<w,; w w.s u m . w.. m e;:z... m g.si,:;3 e.; m .;;.r w s; , ,_
-l
'~
28.
1 MR. MESSERLY$ Yeah. I have done nothing in unit o
~
- j. two. I never have worked anything over there in unit two other than maybe when I,got busted back in June of '82.
4 I went over there and hung a couple of small board hangers i
~
5 in the auxiliary, safeguard and up on top of that -- whatever 6
they call it now; I don't even remember. ~But all of my I
work was done in unit one, completely in one. But getting
.. back to that, where that overhead crane is -- if you're ,
standing with your back to the reactor and looking at tha't .
t 10 overhead crane, about mid-ways down where them tanks are 11
.... :: running, is where them holes were drilled'. It would be
. sort of on your right hand side, looking at that overhead 5' 13
.r crane. ,
.r"- MR. WESSMAN: Okakr. I' understand the location
' 15 -
, t. : you're describ?ng, I think.
That's all changed in there now,-
- 2:2 I guess. _I haven't been there.
If you're at the turbin building,"
tb a '
'MR. 'HOFFMAYER:
19 looking at the reactors --
,- .;. No. Your back's to the reactor
-i
- g and you're looking at that overhead crane.that goes back
- o and forth on a railroad tracks; it would be to the right.
23 of that, where them long tanks are. They got some kind of
't a stainless steel covering on them or something. .I don't 25 en know what they're used for, but there are several of
- A,. w t.: .a.. u . , x e =, x .x. m . w a.,, a ,x s u m ,y u u x ....,. x . a ;,a._ x x : _.,. ,;.
o .. __ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - . - _ . _ - - --
r
. . '9
., u 29.
I them , tanks, and right along side of them tanks, in between 2 them tanks is where several --
3 MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. Were these holes drilled --
4
'In the floor. ',
5
.MR. HOFFMAYER: -- to support?
Do you know what 6 '
the holes were there for?
7
.,.,,, I have no' idea. Because when we
' 8
., were up there, the tanks were just there. There was no 9
. ; ., lines run through them or nothing, so I don't know whether
, 3 4 10 they'were--justsmallpipehangersiswhatthe'ywere.
II They-were for pipe. .Some kind of pipe that went to them
-' 19
. tanks. .
I3 . ..n .
...,, . MR . HOFFMAYER: And these were'being' drilled into I4 '
the floor? -
35 'Right. They was in the' floor of the A. 16 turbin deck. This was all outside at the time.
. '.* .~. .
I _' '
. 'MR'.' HOFFMAYER: Okay. The o'nly other question, IS I guess, is going back to -- I tlhink you've characterized 19 to me how'much ou think map be extra that you may have
~~
- 0
. drilled. 'On the other' hand, you loaned out -- Did you
'l loan out the drill bits or the actual Drillco machine?
e,,, c 22 Ninety percent of the time, it was the drill bits.
,4 MR. HOFFMAYER: Which were installed into the hilti 25 :-
gun?
. JW . c. . . - . . - _ . . .-
p ,
s _
30.
) No. They weren't using the hilti 2
gun.
What they would do; they made several apparatuses 3
You had a thing that screwed on the end of these drills.
4 .
Actually, these water cool. drills that I used just had a 5 .
water chamber, going through.a half inch drill motor, and 6
they went into the hollow end.of this drill bit and there t 7
.t 8 was an adaptor that. fit oil these and the. water'went through
- ' T ' .
there, so it went directly down in toward where the drill
': I '
was ; cut. All right.
- s. . . .',3
'd 10 g'
They take these adapto'rs down or ,- . .
the bolt that fit the end of my drill which I think was a . .
". :: 11 >
half inch bolt that screwed on these drill bits, and they
.- ! 12 4
would cut,the bolt head-off and stick them right into a
- 13 - '
drill motor.- ,
g4 -
MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. I guess hes p obably already 15 .
' ~ ~ '. '
. answered this f .:;e.v -
~ 16 . -
MR. WESSMAN: You want to go off tihe record for a-
-: 37 i.'. . -
mintitie,? .? .,
b:: : IS MR. HOFFMAYER:
- - Yeah. Let's go off the record g . . ., ,
~ - '
.. 19 l
1 because I hate to ask the samh question over.
> . .. r 20
?- -
MR. WESSMAN: Okay. . Let's go off the record. -
~- 21 l:m :s!. ' ~
-. 3.,.
. (Off the record.)
- 23
,' MR. WESSMAN: Let's go back on the record. And
.* 9
~ '4 would you clarify for us your opinion as to the .
. . % I percentage of unauthorized holes that you may have drilled ,
[
. 1 u.
, - 31 m._
l 1
and'the total percent of unaut;:torized holes that you feel may exist out there.
Okay. I would say I drilled seventy-
- 4 five percent, and'I would say under crafts, fifteen percent
~
. - - illegal holes.
6 MR. SHAO: Yeah. But they're not added, though.
. :. .7 See, your five percent, ,
their. fifteen percent averages ten g ~
'.' percent if you drilled half of them.
- c: '
No. I'm saying' twenty percent total.
-MR. WESSMAN: Let me say it,a diff'erent way,
. 11
. : In your mind, twenty percent of the holes drilled out U. there are unauthorized holes; of that twenty percent,
.i 13
. *l: you-contributed five percent and others contributed .
. ' ,_ . , . . . '-:~: . .
14 : i. :
Jfifteen percent . ' . . -
.', Ye h.
' ~
16 *-~ - - ~ ~ ' -
.- . -% MR. . S H,A O : .
That'.d.oesn.'t make sense to me. If you --
g .y .' . '
'< i 'iL: MR.- WES SMAN : Let's talk about it later. I think
- 18 I understand what we're saying. -
'- 19 C8~3d MR. SHAO: You mean that you drilled five percent 20 of the total holes and others drilled fifteen percent of
- . 21 -
the total holes --
.. 22 . .
MR. WESSMAN: Giving you twenty percent.
. 23 '
MR. SHAO: He says five percent of what he drills.
" ,4
..'.~ It's different from fifteen. percent what others --
25
~ .I MR. HOFFMAYER: Can we back up a minute? First of r
.. .- "W = .- . . ~. . . ~ . ~. .w;.:n . . . . . . . ., . . . . . . . . . . . . - . .. . : .n'
s pey- ---g. --
_._ _m - -_ea. _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _
y l.
. 32.
j i all, we're talking about like the period that's represented 2
by this log, which is probably running from like 3
that's a little over a year
~
4
'when you were involved in doing this, and during that time 3
period, this is the. record of all the rebar that you i
6 drilled, and you feel that'you drilled maybe in excess of "that, about another five percent, not recorded on this log.
0
,,,. Right.
9 MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. Now, my understanding was 10 that when rebar was drilled, most of the time, the orders
' il to drill rebar were given'to you.
.; 12 .
_ .True.
F 13 -
.. . t 5
~*
MR. HOFFMAYER: iU'ow , that's why I'm a little
' 14 3
-* c' 'onfused .
.If otiler people borrowed your drili'and were
~~ , -
15 out, drilling ,rebar,. what percentage of what are we 16 talking about? In other words, were they drilling holes?
U 17 They were authorized to drill holes; if they hit rebar,
" I6 then they'd have to come back.to you through the chain
- I9 which would eventually get back to you.
~
. 20 That's true.
P-g 21 MR. HOFFMAYER: Okay. N o w', on' occasion, they maybe
~ -
22 would not do that; they would go borrow a drill and go
- v. 23 drill it themselves without authorization. That's what
. 24 we.re talking about; right?
~
Right.
e
- . .~- -. -
?
.- +
- 33. '
I , MR. HOFFMAYER: So, that's where I get confused
- l 2 with this twenty percent now. Can we go off the record? '
3 4
- - (Off the record.)
. . 5' MR. WESSMAN: Let's go back on the record. Let's
, 6 talk about 'the number of drills that you may have used I
~
7 during a one year period.
!... ... . can you give us any feel 8
for'how many drills'you may have ordered during a one f
9 year period? '
.,. ?: 10 I really can't tell you'how many
' drills'I ordere~d'. '
!. ... .i 11 -
.: 12 MR. WESSMAN: Would you say you had ordered several 13 thou' sand or.several hundred?
l 14
, I would say it would be in the 15 thousands. - -
16 MR. WESSMAN: Would,we be. talking numbers in excess I 17 of ten thousand -or excess of fif ty thousand? Those are n . .. ..
. 18 big numbe$s.
19
., No. I don't think there was ten 20 thousand drills ordered.
21 Okay'.
-MR . WESSMAN: G,ive me a feel for how many
.. ;. 22 drills may have been stolen or taken out of your shack I
23 over this one year period?
24
, I would say no more than five percent.
23 MR. WESSMAN: Can you give me a fee.1 for how many.
--. c. are;&. u. a - . ......:......:c.. .._..-..,..w..a. . .- .. .. -
t
. j
, .." . :, I g
34.' I drills might have been borrowed from you under the orders 2
of some other individual?
Well, I include this in that five 4
percent. .
5 MR. WESSMAN: You would include the, borrowed drills t
6 in the five percent that somehow left your shack, whether 7
they were. borrowed or stolen?
8 Right.
, 9 * , .'... -
,e
- MR.,WESSMANt' All right.. Now, give me a feel f,or
~, 39 4 , t ,. .? . . ../ . p
~ .
if .a man uses a drill cutting machin'e. properly and appropriate ly
... ,s ' ' '
'11 . .
cool's the drill bi.t,,'how many cuts would he be 'likely to
- . 12 .- .
ge_t with a single drill'. bit?
Three to five. holes. 'Now, let me 14 clarify. That's depending on the size of the drill and
' 15
what size rebar you hit and what percentage of the rebar 16 -
you're cutting.
- .. I: 17 MR. WESSMAN: So, perhaps in the worst case, if he e
<: IS hit a lot of rebar, he may only get three holes. If he hit 19 .
almost no rebar or just a small bit of rebar,'he m'ight
"~.- 20 get as many as five holes?
Five or betiter. But if he hit a .
~~'
solid piece of rebar and we took out the middle and it 23 .'
happened to be a case harboring a piece of rebar, he might ] .
21 i
not get one hole out of the drill.
- li t MR. WESSMAN: Okay. I think we can look at that as ;
l 3
. i 1-
~ . . . . . . - ~ . . . . . . - . . , , . . . . , - _
... -- - - . . -~ . -
.. .....,4
I r . '
- 35. (..
. ~
I e valuators and now come up with some feeling for the 2 quantity of holes that might have been drilled either 3 illegally or with borrowed drills or with stolen drills, 4 and we'll attempt to make an assessment as to where they Do we have any other questions on rebar drilling?
5 might be.
6 MR. HOFFMAYER: No.
7 MR. WESSMAN: as we said when we started, we had 8
' . looked_,z,'.,
/' at your.
other- statements and we think things 9 aie p'etty r 'Elear from other documents that have been
. .y d 10 f provid'ed to' us(, Do yok.have 'a'nything- further that you 11 wantrto s'h.are with us'at this point and get on the record of this discussion?
12
..s '
- 13 Not really.*.I'think my other state.ments plainly state seventy-five', eighty. percent 14
. 15 of what I've said out there before. .
16 .MR.' WESSMAN: Do you feel we've adequately covered
- II your concerns in our discussion today?
IS Yeah. I do; on the rebar. ,
- I9 MR. WESSMAN: Do you have any other concerns that 20 you may not have identified to othei- folks with the NRC .
21 or to CASE that you want to raise with us today?
22 I can't think' of any.
23 MR. WESSMAN: Have you given this statement to us 24 today freely and voluntarily? i 1
25 I have.
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- t CERTIFICATE OF PROCEEDINGS -
0 3
This is to certify that the attached proceedings before 4 the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 5 In the Matter of: COMANCHE PEAK, TECHNICAL INTERVIEW Date of Proceedings: Thursday, Au ust 2, 1984 6 Place of Proceedings:
7 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript for the file of the Commission. .
9 .
10 .-
11 Cheryl Lynn Walters' Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 .
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