ML20062D483
| ML20062D483 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/31/1990 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-1819, NUDOCS 9011130252 | |
| Download: ML20062D483 (187) | |
Text
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4 ogg ACRs7: IPl9 OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS t
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Agency:
Advisory Committee on neactor safeguards i
- Title, subcommittee on Advanced soiling Water Reactors Docket No.
a 1
9 IOCGON:
Bethesda, Maryland IuTE Wednesday, October 31, 1990 PAGES:
1 - 180.
X3RSTMic'e CopyElen "0C0 58 OI ~0 30 iIEb ANN RILEY & ACSOCIKfES, LTD.
'G 1612 K St. N.W, Suite 300 v Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 901.1130002 901031 81 PNV g
t, 1
2 3
4 PUBLIC NOTICE BY THE 5
U.*iITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S 6
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 7
8 DATE:
_,,0ctober 31, 1990 9
10 11 12
()
13 The contents of this transcript of the 14 proceedings of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 15 Commission's Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 16 (rlate)
October 31, 1990 17 as reported herein,.are a record of the discussions recorded at 18 the meeting held on the above date.
19 This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected 20 or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
21' 22 23 25 1
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1
- /,
1
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2 UNIT".D STATES OF AMERICA 3
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION r
4 I
l 5
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 6
7 SUBCOMMITTEE ON ADVANCED BOILING WATER REACTORS 8
)
9
)
10
.11 12
'i 14 15 Wednesday,. October 31, 1990
-16 '
Nuclear Regulatory Commission l
l 17 Conference Room P-110
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18 7920 Norfolk Avenue
.I 19 Bethesda, Maryland
- l. !
21 j
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22 The Subcommittec-mot, pursuant to notice, at 11:10 23 o' clock a.m.,
Carl Michelson, Subcommittee Chairman, L
4 24 presiding.
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25 l
4
1 2
l 1
PARTICIPANTS:
'd 2
3.
C. MICHELSON, ACRS Member L
I 4
J. CARROLL, ACRS Member
\\
5 I. CATTON, ACRS Member l
6 C.
SIESS, ACRS Member l
i l.
7 E. WILKINS, ACRS Member 8
R.
COSTNER, JR.,
ACRS Consultant 9
M. EL-ZEFTAWY,'ACRS Cognizant Staff Member l
10 C. MILLER, NRC/NRR 11 C.
PObLUSNY, NRC/NRR f
E i
12 J.
E. MAXWELL, GE l
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13 J.
CHAMBERS, GE J t 14 G.
EHLERT, GE 15 l
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PROCEEDINGS k-)
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(11:10 a.m.]"
3 MR. MICHELSON:
The meeting will now come to 4
order.
This is a meeting of the Advisory Committee on 5
Reactor Safeguards, Subcommittee on Advanced Boiling Water 6
Reactors.
I am Carl Michelson, Acting Subcommittee 7
Chairman.
ACRS members in attendance are J. Carroll, Ivan 8
Catton, Ernest Wilkins, and we have a consaltant coming, Bob 9
Costner, who is supposed to be here by now, but his airplane 10 must have been a little late.
11 The purpose of this meeting is to review the u.
12 physical separation and general plant layout of the GE ABWR
?~h g ( J' 13 design..
14 Dr. El-Zeftawy is the cognizant ACRS staff member
)
1 15 for this meeting.
16 The rules for participation in today's meeting 17 have~been announced as part of the notice of this meeting.
1 10 previously published in the Federal Register on October 17, 19 1990.
A transcript of the meeting is being kept and will be l
20
'made available as stated in the Federal Register Notice.
21 It is requested that each speaker first identify L
22 himself or'herself and speak with sufficient clarity and l^
E 23 volume so that he or she can be readily heard.
.fs 24 We have received no written comments or requests 25 to make oral statements from r. embers of the public..
l l
4 lf 1
The purpose of the discussion on the ABWR today is
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to look at the degree to which hard barrier physical 3
separation is going to be used in the ABWR to assure that we l
L 4
will minimize our problems with hazardous events, such as 5
fire, internal flooding, and so forth.
L 6
To do that, we want to pursue with GE their l
l 7
physical separation through looking at the general plant l
r 8
layout, and also looking at specific aspects of the L.
9 separation boundary, such as the doors that may be present, electrical penetrations, ventilation ducts, floor drains, 10 11 things'of this sort that can penetrate the separation l
1 12 barrier.
We'd like to see how they propose to handle these
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13 areas.
lM l
14 My own view, at least, is that we know that there
)
i 15 -
can be pctential problems with hazardous events, such as j
16-
= fire, that are very difficult to address on a purely l
'17 deterministic basis.
So one of the perhaps best methods of l
18 handling the problem is to assure that~it cannot spread i
i 19 beyond some certain boundary point, and.then assure that the i
_4 l
i
'20 equipment on the other side of the boundary will'take care 1
-21 of the event irrespective of what might be happening within 22 the zone of the event itself.
L
.23 So we're quite interested in assuring that, for H24 future plants, we do have good barriers between such events
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25 and the rest of the plant equipment.
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5 1
With those thoughts in mind, I think we now are ar y
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2 going to proceed with GE making the presentation.
If you 3
will, then.
4 MR. CHAMBERS:
Okay.
This is John Chambers with 5
GE.
I have with me today Gary Ehlert from our Plant l
6 Arrangement Group, and Ed Maxwell from our C&I Electrical 7
Design Group.
What we're going to do is Mr. Maxwell is 8-going to give the presentation and just lead you through 9
essentially the fire hazards analysis that we have in the 10 SSAR, and then as we get into other areas, or you have Hil.
questions of similar concerns with other areas, we can get 12 into those.
-[ 'w]'
13 With that, I'll just let Mr. Maxwell start.
Okay.
Thank you.
Now, it's my l
15 understanding that nothing at our meeting that will be said 16 will be proprietary, but we may be looking at some handouts 17 that are proprietary.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
l 19 MR. MICHELSON:
Thank you.
20 MR. WILKINS:
Carl, I notice that the posted 21 agenda had a presentation from the NRC staff on it.
Are we 22 going to hear that?
23 MR. MICHELSON:
It's my understanding that the
,x 24 staff doesn't wish to make a presentation because the person LJ 25 that would have made the presentation was unable to be here.
1
6 r
~
1 Is that right, Charlie?
Do you have any words that you want 2
to say'now, or just at the end?
Certainly, you're free to 3
say them.
I assumed you meant at the end of the discussion.
4 MR. MILLER:
I guess the only words that I would 5
like to say are, first, I'd like to say that, you know, 6
we're here today to try to listen and to try to respond to_
7 any_ questions to the extent that we can, and also to try to, 8
as the discussion progressas, if we hear concerns, take those back and try to factor those into evaluations that 9
10 we're performing.
11 I'd like to introduce the gentleman to my right to 12 the Subcommittee because he's going to be joining my staff
()
13 in working with Deno Scalletti on the ABWR, and his name is 14 Chet Poslusny.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Can yco spell that?
16 MR. MILLER:
I'll let Chet do it.
.1'7
[ Laughter.)
18 MR. POSLUSNY :
It's P-o-s-1-u-s-n-y.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
It's like it sounds.
20 MR. POSLUSNY:
Yes.
21 MR. MILLER:
Our intention is, from this day 22 forward, we're going to double up on the project management
"=
23 on the ABWR to see if we can get the review accelerated.
~24 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
Would you proceed then, 25 please.
Certainly, if the staff wishes to ask questions
7
-1 along the way, this is kind of an informal get together r~S i )
2 here, and so if you have questions, feel free to ask within m_
l 3
reason.
4 (Slide.]
5 MR. MAXWELL:
My name is Ed Maxwell.
I'm 1
6 principal engineer at General Electric, primarily in charge 7
of electrical-and fire protection.
8 On the first slide here, I'd like to run over the 9
fons that I prepared for this meeting.
They look a little 10 different than the agenda that I just got, but I think i
11 they'll cover the subjects that you want to cover.
12 The first thing I'm going to talk about is our
('l-13 ultimate fire protection design objective, and I'm going to v
I 14 talk a little bit about some of the.pacsive features i
15 contributing to the achievement of this ultimate fire 16
. protection-goal.
17 Then we're going to talk -- we have some three-18 hour fire separation exceptions, and this is all
[n 19 introductory material to what I'd say is a tour of the l
20-plant.
We're going to start in the. reactor building with a 12 1 set of colored arrangement drawings, and we'll start at the 22 bottom floor and come up through the plant, describing the 23 separation.
Any questions you have, we'll try to answer 24 them.
25 MR. MICHELSON:
Before we get started, maybe you
1 f
-8
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1 could give me a feeling for something that I've wondered I
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2 about.
That is, as I understand it, this is the nuclear 3
island being built in Japan, and that apparently, this is 4
the Japanese design of that island.
5 MR. MAXWELL:
That is not quite correct.
It is 6
the modification of the Japanese design to meet the US 7
requirements.
In some cases, their design does not meet our 8
US requirements.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Could you give me an example of 10 wherein within the reactor building it didn't meet it, just 11 to-get-a feel for it?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, for instance, they don't keep
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H13 three-hour separation, hard barrier separation between n
14
-divisions.
They only meet IEEE 384.
So we've had to go 15 back, add separations.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
I see.
17 MR. MAXWELL:
And that requires some modification L
18' to the HVAC systems.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
So if I were to walk into the 20:
Japanese plants comparable to this when it's available, I 21 would find certain walls missing that I would see in a US 22 version?
23 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
And I would find some rerouting of
'~'
25 ducting and electrical and so forth to accommodate our
i 9
1 perhaps more stringent requirements?
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MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
The reason I ask this is bec.use 4
you're probably aware that the Japanese have maybe less 5
concern about severe accidents than perhaps we do, and 6
therefore do not have some of the accommodations that we've 7
been asking for in our plants.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
I'm aware of that.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Did you mean what you said, that 10 you'd find walls in the US plant that don't exist in the 11-Japanese plant?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct, yes.
- f w) 13 MR. WILKINS:
I would have thought they might be (u) 14 thicker walls.
15 MR. hAXWELL:
Generally not thicker because our 16 walls in our plants tend to be thick enough to give you 17 three-hour separation regardless of whether they're fire 18 barriers or not.
About seven inches of concrete will do 19 that.
You have to look to find a seven-inch thin wall-in j
1 20 any plant.
21 After we go through the, and on the buildings 22 we're going to go through the reactor building and the 23 control building,'those are the two buildings.
And then I'm 24:
going to talk a little bit about secondary containment HVAC, gg U
25 and its fire separations.
That's one of the areas where we
1 I
l 10 1
had to make a change,
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2 And then later this afternoon, we're going to 3
make a big shift of gears, and I'll talk a bit about solid 4
state controls, the use of solid state controls in the 5
plant.
6
[ Slide.)
7 MR. MAXWELL:
Our ultimate goal in the fire 8
protection design is to have complete burnout, to be abla to 9
accept complete burnout with recovery of a single fire zesne.
10 And when we say without recovery, we mean forever.
11 You don't in a week to have it, other than maybe regulatory 12 considerations, but that we can go ahead and shut the plant
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13 down safely for any given fire in the plant.
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14' MR. CARROLL:
What does complete burnout mean with l
L 15 respect to the way equipment performs while all this is it 16 going'on?
Does it mean that we're going from a piece of l
17 equipment'being operable to it being inoperable?
Do au j
18-take into account when you say burnout in between ktnd of L
19 things?
If fire affects a controller, and it makes a velve 20 open that isn't supposed to open,.that arct of thJng, is 21' that considered in your definitio:: of burnout?
22 MR. MAXWELL:
We assume that because of the fire, 23 everything in the fire zone goes to its worst possible 24 condition or sequence of events that is reasonable with es g
-\\
/
25 respect to the fire.
For instance, hot siturtn, opens, and I
i i
11 1
spurious signals.
- (
)
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2 MR. CARROLL:
So you do look at such things as 3
spurious actuction of equipment?
4 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
For instance, if we have two 5
isolation valves, if we have an isolation valve that can be 6
opened by some combination of events due to the fire, then i
7 we check to see if there's another isolation valve that is 8
immune from the consequences of the fire in that particular 9
fire zone.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
So you do then look for unwanted 11 responses from equipment located within the fire zone?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
['us) 13 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't find that in the SAR, not L
14 even stated.
But that's.a good idea.
If that's what GE's l
[
15 going to do, that's great.
I wasn't, I looked at your fire 16 hazarls analysis.
That's not the assumption made there.
p 17-You assume loss of functionality.
You don't look for 18 unwanted actions.
I 19 MR. MAXWELL:
We probably, that's not a full 20 statement of what we do.
Yes, we state it in terms of 21 functionality.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay..
It may be that your hazards 23.
analysis is not quite up to your current thinking then, 24 perhaps.
7-A 25 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
It is due for an update.
12 1'
We're working on it right now.
2 MR. MICHELSON:
I think that is a very important, 3
that is the consideration of concern to us is making sure 4
that we don't get, that you have adequately accounted for 5
unwanted action from a given fire zone.
That's important.
6 Whon you talk about a fire zone, is it correct to 7
assume it's always surrounded by three-hour fire barriers?
8 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Let's see.
This morning -- did you y
10 get your answer, Carl?
1 11 MR. MICHELSON:
- Yes, a-12 MR. CARROLL:
This morning I keep hearing about
( )
- 13 fire hazards analysis.
I thought we got rid of-the 14 terminology " hazards analysis" some time back in the '60s, 15 MR. MICHELSON :
Well, maybe it's called " risk" 16 now.
17 MR. CARROLL:
A general term.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
I think it's probably called 19-
" risk" even in the ABWR.
I don't remember now.
It's a 20 risk-scoping study of some sort.
21 MR. CARROLL:
All right.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
I'm just old-fashioned.
23 MR. CARROLL:
Wash your mouth out.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, no; I'm not going to do that.
- O 25 I'm just way behind the times, that's all.
i 13 1-MR.. MAXWELL:
I was there when this happened.
It
(' h.
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-2 still is " fire hazard analysis" in the various depositions.
3
.And the first time I saw it, I was just like you.
I thought 4
we got rid of that.
But it came back, as fire hazard 5
analysis.
6 MR. CARROLL:
So we should be talking of Conrad 7
McCracken, or somebody like that?
Okay.
8
[ Slide.)
9 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
I just want to run through 10 these features --
11 MR. MICHELSON:
One more question, just to make
.12 sure I understand this complete burnout, and all of its
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13 ramifications.
j l
14-If there is, if we have a fire in a given zone and 1
15.
we are trying to mitigate the fire in that zone, and so 16 forth, are the effects of those mitigating steps included in 17-this analysis --
l-18
'MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
-- such as equipment getting wet, j
20 and not necessarily getting hot, because it's in the same 21 zone?
That's correct.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Sprinklers are coming on, but that 24 wasn't where the fire was.
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25 So you're going to analyze the other eqt.', ment
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'from the viewpoint of what happens when water gets in it, in
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looking for your unwanted actions?
3 MR. MAXWELL:
Again, if it's in the fire zone, we 4
figure out the worst possible failures that we can have 5
either from the fire or # rom the suppression activity, and 6
ascertain that that's acceptable.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
Sounds good.
8 MR. CARROLL:
Can we terminate the meeting at this 9
point?
10 (Laughter.)
11 MR. MICHELSON:
At this point, I think we can 11 2 forget about everything else.
'I ))
11 3 MR. RAXWELL:
That is our objective.
14-I sincerely hope you're able to do this, because 15 that is the right ultimate thing to.do.
Not easy, however.
16 MR.' MAXWELL:
Even more difficult to document, 17 maybe.
i 18 MR. CATTON:
You'll put the PRA people out of L.
L 19 business.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
It's going to require a
^21 significant change to your report that's in the ABWR SSAR so 22 far.
23
.MR.: MAXWELL:
Okay.
Some of the features of the
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plant design that you might watch as we go through the 24.
'O 25
-drawings, that contribute to meeting our objective of
m 15
=
1 complete burnout of a fire zone, are:
2 Three independent divisions of water injection and
[
And I'm sure you're aware of this, that
~
4 on the ABWR we put heat exchanger capacity in the third 5
division so that it now is a full division as compared to 6
Division 1 and 2.
And any one of those three divisions is E
7 capable of safely shutting a plant down.
8 MR. CARROLL:
And when you use the terminology 9
"three independent divisions," you're talking, in addition 10 to the fluidic systems, you're talking about the power 11-supply system, the electrical power supply systems?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
()
13 MR. CARROLL:
So you've got three diesels plus the 14 EPRI-prescribed alternative AC power system.
15 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
Three batteries, three 6.9 KP 16 switchgear groups, the whole thing.
Yes.
MR. MICHELSON:
I unfortunately forgot to bring 17 18 the page with me, but I read one place, and it probably is r
19 out of date now, in the SAR where it'said that you needed 20 two out of three of those electricel divisions to do certain 21
. things that were required for safe shutdown, but that's H22 probably no longer true.
I had thought it was always three 23 pure divisions too, but I read that.
I'll bring it for our 24 next meeting when we get to that.
9 25 MR. CARROLL:
Is that your addition of the heat j
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exchanger?
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MR. MAXWELL:
It is that, but we have some R
T.
3 difficulty getting the word to all our peoplo also that it's g
4 that way.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
I think the SARs sometimes get out I
6 of date.
7 MR. CARROLL:
So you're a full N+2 plant?
8 MR. MAXWELL:
For safe shutdown, yes.
Now, some i
9 LOCA -- I understand there are one or two LOCA situations --
10 I mean, I can't tell you which one -- that may require two.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, that's where I read about.
12 it, in the LOCA situations.
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13 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
wJ 14 MR. MICHELSON:
That's what safe shutdown has to n
@L 15 do with, in 16 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, that's emergency shutdown.
17 MR. MICHELSJN :
There is a difference in your 18 terminology?
I certainly never picked that up in reading i
19 it.
20 MR. MAXWELL:
Safe shutdown -- as you know, as I 21 read the branch technical position, safe shutdown is not 22 LOCA.
The emergency shutdown is LOCA, and they make the l
23 statement that --
l l
24 MR. CHAMBERS:
As Ed said, there are one or two 25 instances because -- of the three divisions, one of the
en l
L. '
17 1
divisions has for its high pressure system RCIC, so you can 2
get into one or two situations, and I don't remember what 3
they are off-hand either, where you don't quite have H+2, 4
but you still meet all the reg guides and the requirements j
5 in the SRP.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
For any external events, you do 7
meet N+2.
Is that what you're saying?
But for certain LOCA 3
events, you do not?
9 MR. CHAMBERS:
That may be a fair assessment, yes.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, we're looking at these 11
' boundaries from external event viewpoint, of course.
l 12 They're not in there for LOCA, they're in there for external L/' 'E 13-events.
O 14 MR.- CARROLL:
That may be something you can check 15 on during our lunch. break and give.us a good description of i
16 what the exceptions are?
l 17 MR. CHAMBERS:
Yes, I should be able to do that.
i 18 MR. CATTON:
I'd be interested in what's not quite l
19 N+2.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
That's the exception.
l 21-
[ Laughter.)
h 22 MR. CATTON:
Oh, but I'd like to know what it is.
23 What's missing to make it N+2?
24 MR. MICHELSON:
That's where the event will be,
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. id 25 and it will be missing.
I 1
Ii
18 1
(Laughter.)"
2 MR. CARROLL:
I did read your submittal on 3
accidents in modes other than power operation.
I'd be 4
interested, if there's any exceptions for those modes for 5
the kinds of accidents you're looking at.
I'm not sure e
there are.
I think you're N+2 if you're not in power 7-operation.
6 MR. CHAMBERS:
Yes.
I'll check that as well.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Do you understand what I'm asking?
10 MR. CHAMBERS:
Yes.
That's our shutdown risk.
11 analysis in answer to one of the staff's questions, I take 12 it.
()
13 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
In other words, if you had 15 an external event during shutdown, what would be your 16 requirements.
Do you have H+2 available -- well, it won't 17 be available, but do you have an N+2 configuration?
18 Proceed.
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Then.we have three 20 independent divisions of safety related support systems:
21 HVAC, reactor building closed. cooling water, service water.
22 MR. MICHELSON: 'Now, when we pursued this on ABWR 23 at an earlier meeting, you indeed had these three separate HVACs, but then you also told us you had for normal 24 25 operation a common ventilation system that served all areas.
-_.-m._._.
m.m.
._-_m.___.___._.__._
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19
- 1 Is that still the case?
7-s tk-2 MR. MAXWELL:
At the secondary containment?
3 MR. MICHELSON:
The reactor building.
4 MR. MAXWELL:
In the reactor building, and that's 5
one we're going to dig into a little later.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
You're still looking at 7
that question.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
We think we have a solution 9
for it.
But it is a modification that we had to make to the 10 Japanese design.
I 11 MR. MICHELSON:
Because if you have a common 12 ventilation system, then you have common connectors between-L
~ )
(
13 your otherwise good barriers.
l
/
14 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
15 MR. CARROLL:
At some point, and maybe this isn't 116' the right time,_I'd like to really get a good appreciation
'J. /
for what differs from the Japanese plant and this one,.and, l
18.
more-importantly, why they tend to be more cavalier about 4
l 19 the fire issue than we are.
20 MR.. MAXWELL:
Probably the best way to handle that
(
21'
-is to go through floor by floor, and-I'll point out the l-E 22 additions that show, and then maybe we can talk after.we've 23 gone through the arrangements and a little more summarize 24 it.
' qV.
25 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
20 1
MR. MAXWELL:
Ask me a-question.
If I don't
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2 answer you, ask me.
3 MR. CARROLL:
Oh, yes.
4 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
5 MR. CARROLL:
You don't have to worry about that.
6 (Laughter.]
7 MR. MAXWELL:
I haven't in the past.
8 The only equipment of one division in the fire 9
area or zona -- now, you'll hear me use " fire area" or " fire l
10 zone," and, to me, they're synonymous, but we only have one 11 division of equipment in a fire zone, except there are a few 12 special cases.
I'm going to talk about those as a separate I $
13 item.
} Q./
14 MR. CATTON:
And give'us the reason.
15 MR. MAXWELL:
Why it is.
I'll explain that, if 16 you' don't mind, in one case, okay?
y 17 There are only safety-related services -- piping, 1-18 HVAC, cables -- of one division within an area.
Again, we j
19 follow through with the service systems --
But see, you're talking again L
21 about safety-related services.
I might be equally concerned i
L 12 2 about non safety related services -- a big water line going 23 through the room that doesn't perform a safety-related I*
24' function; it's just in there for whatever reason.
- Clearly, jq i
1
\\',/
25 that's a part of this analysis.
1
21 1-MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
j
^s-).
bO 2
MR. MICHELSON:
So if you take a water line and 1
3 run it through one division, what are the rules about also j
4 running it through other divisions?
1 5
MR. MAXWELL:
Well, you have to assume the 1
6 failures that we assume, modes of failures, for that line 7
and that division, and the consequences of that failure 8
cannot progress to another division.
9 Now, if the line goes to another division, then 1
10 you assume the failure is over in that division, and go 11 through a similar analysis.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
And you assume, of course, that rx 13 there aren't two failures, just one failure.
i
.Q l
That's correct, yes.
l
'15 MR. MICHELSON:
A little different-the.a how'we i
1 15 treat electrical associated cabling.
You reuember, once i
l-17 associated with a safety tray, it isn't gut in any other l-tray.
l l
19 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct, yes.
l-20-MR. MICHELSON:
Any other safety-related. tray, H21 that is.
22 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
And then we try to get fire 23 zones of like divisions contiguous to each other, if l
24 possible, so that in your route between the fire zones, you 73*,)
25 don't go through divisions of other divisional areas.
We
1 I
22
]
1-also take only safety-related services of one division fy
\\ l.
2 between divisional fire areas.
j i
3 MR. CARDOLL:
I am getting lost here now.
Try 4-some other words on that --
5 MR. MAXWELL:
On the last one?
6 Kt CARROLL:
No, the one before that.
Fire zones 7
of like divisions.
You have three divisions in the plant.
8 Are you using divisions in a different sense?
9 MR. MAXWELL:
That's right.
Let me give you a 10 good example.
We have the reactor building site, and then 11 we have the control building between the reactor building 12 and the turbine building.
Now, if you look at :he interface h 'I~D 13 of the reactor building to the control building, in the l.Y 14 reactor building, if.you're standing in the reactor building 15 looking out to the control building, Division 2 cable trays,
^
16 piping and services will be on the left of the building, 17 Division 1 will be in the middle, and Division 3 will be 18 over on the right.
i 19 Now, if you go look in the control building, it's 20 laid out'to match'up so that the divisions -- you have two i
21-different fire zones in a division, and'they're adjacent to 22
-each other.
23 MR. CARROLL:
All right.
24 MR. MAXWELL:
So we don't get cross overs and f-s 25 things like that.
j 23 1
MR. CARROLL:
So that is what that bullet means, l
.fy k) 2 then?
ss l
3-MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
Ideally, what you'd want to
]
l 4
do is take all of your Division 1 fire zones and put them in 5
cube, all your Division 2 fire zones and put them in a cube, 6
and Division 3 and put them in a cube.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Unfortunately, the plant is not in 8
cube form.
9 MR. MAXWELL:
We try to line them up adjacent, t
10 The can be adjacent horizontally or vertical 37 You will 11 see this in the arrangement drawings.
12 MR. CARROLL:
I understand.
-[ /)
13 MR. MAXWELL:
let's see, only safety related N-l 14 services of one division between divisional fire areas.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
What does that mean?
16 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, like if you have a' division 17 fire area 1 in the reactor building and you've got services l
L 18 going over at the control building, it would be. Division 1 19 services going between those two Division areas and that's 20-all.
21' MR. MICHELSON:
Let's take a Division 1, Division 22 2 separation within the reactor building.
These are again I
~23 two separate divisions.
What does that statement then mean?
24 MR. MAXWELL:
It means that there will be no j~~
- ' t y-l 25 Division 1 or 2 services going between the Division 1 and 2 1
24 1
areas.
O k_ /
2-MR. MICHELSON:
You are saying nones of these 3
services will cross divisional boundaries?
4 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Yet there are some cases where --
6 and as it must be the exceptions --where you have to cross 7
talk.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
With the special cases, with the 1
9 exception of special cases.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
There are a few cross talks 11
. required?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
We will talk about that, l
13 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, do these statements apply 14 equally to piping versus cables and so forth?
15 KR. MAXWELL:
Correct.
16 MR. h!CHELSON:
So, you have no cross over piping?
17 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, that is correct.
1;B MR. MICHELSON:
Now,_if it is a non-safety related t
19 function, do you allow cross over piping?
20 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
So, you aro not following that
- 22 pure rule that we have about association of electrical
-23 cables in the case of water pipes?
24 MR. MAXWELL:
Correct.
No, we are not.
,-a
(
25 MR. MICHELSON:
How about in the case of
25
'l electrical cables?
You are still using that philosophy L
\\
,~
2 there?
3 MR.. MAXWELL:
Yes.
Right now we haue not 4
identified any associated cables.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
But there wouldn't be any because 6
you can't cross divisional boundarier with it.
7 MR. MAXWELL:
That is right.
They would still be 8
-- yes.
't 9
We have also, with the multiplex design of the 10 plant, reduced the cable quantities and concentrations which
-11 helped.
Then we have our diverse high and low pressure 12
- systems, f~ )
'13 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, in the case of multiplexing, y
14 I assume maybe you are going to get into this detail,later, 15 but you have both safety and non-safety parameters that you 16 are wanting to multiplex.
Those can both be put on the'same-17 multiplexer, I assume?
In other words, you have only. safety 18 related inputs, and then a safety related multiplexer?
19 MR. MAXWELL:
We have an essential-multiplexing-20 system and then we will have non-essential multiplexing I
21 systems.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
And they will be separate?
23 MR. MAXWELL:
Separate, yes.
24 MR. MICHELSON :
Now,'if it is a non-essential 25 multiplexer, the inputs coming to it still only come from
26 1
within that division?
2-MR. MAXWELL:
Well, non-essential, they would come l3 fron non-essential instruments.
They would --
4 MR. MICHELSON :
But not necessarily within that 5
divisional boundary, then?
They could be coming through the 6
boundary wall from instruments on the other side?
7 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
7 8
MR. MICHELSON :
So, you would have electrical, 9
non-essential electrical, penetrations of your boundaries?
10 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
11 MR. MICHELSON :
And if so, we have to look then at 12~
how you provide -- that has to be a good penetration frcm
()
13 the' fire viewpoint, for instance?
14 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Why do you do that?
Why do you 16 puncture holes in the boundary for that sort of thing?
Is 17
'there some real problem that you've gained enough by doing 18 that?
-19 MR. MAXWELL:
The real answer to that is that non-
=20:
essential equipment gets laid out with'an A aid a B pump 21 side by side.
We finally got the grade made in the United 22 States, anyway, if we've got an-A and'a B pump we put them 23 in separate' rooms.
Whereas,-in non-essential they tend to
=
24 put an A and a B pump side by side so that the maintenance 9
25 people and so on can go look at them both at the same.
l
[
27 1
So now you are.1: a common area.
If that happens
(
)
?
to be in a Division 1 area, then you have got to get out, x '
3 probably, to another division.
4 Now, in most cases, if it is in a -- it will stay 5
by natural routing.
The cable would stay within the same 6
division au where the pumps are located, but we don't 7
control it.
When I say you have cross throughs, I am not 8
aware of any, but I don't have a method of controlling and 9
preventing it from happening.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
If there are penetrations of the 11 boundaries they will be mostly associated with non-safety 12 related systems, apparently?
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, that is correct.
They will be V) 1 14 of the same fire rating as the boundary penetrated, which 15 would be three-hour.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
No, that is not going to be true i
17 of ventilation, non-safety ventilation though, necessarily?
18 Is that the part you are still working on?
19 MR. MAXWELLS Well, I would like to show you the i
20 drawings we have on that.
21' MR. MICHELS'aN:
While you are getting that, for 22 the benefit of the committee, Consultant Bob Costner is here i
l 23 now.
24 Bob, did you have a problem with your plane?
es
)
~'
25 MR. COSTNER:
No, I had problems underground.
j
28 i
1 MR. CARROLL:
Did you mean to skip over the fourth
)
2 slide at this point?
m-3 MR. MAXWELL:
Did I miss a slide?
Yes.
That one 4
is later.
These are an insert now.
5
[ Slide.)
J 6
MR. MAXWELLt Each of you should have before you 7
an 11 X 17 drawing, a set of drawings, and it should be the 8
reactor building.
This should be the right hand half of the 9
top sheet.
It should have a IB at the bottom.
10 Drawing 1 of 10.
11 I have broken my flimpsies up into two flimpsies 12 per sheet so that we get a bigger size itp here.
~'
( )\\
I just want to talk about this a little bit.
You 13 L
14 will notice that there are some notes on this drawing.
It 15 is a set of arrangement drawings which we have marked for 16 fire protection.
If you look, you will see on the notes an L
17 NFW symbol somewhere on your drawings.
That means a New 18 Fire Wall.
That tells you a change that we made from the 19 Japanese design to our design.
l l
20 NFD, New Fire Door.
Again, that is another L
21 change.
22 Then a solid wall, such as this wall up here, that 23 je a fire barrier, a three-hour fire barrier.
24 MR. CARROLL:
Is that necessarily a change?
7-i)
25 MR. MAXWELL:
Not necessarily, no.
Unless as such I
w m
m m
1 29 1
as identified with an NFW, it is a wall.
It is a change in l
k_-)
2 that the Japanese do not designate fire walls.
But, if it
{
3 does not have an NFW with a hexagon on it, why we did not 4
designate that wall.
5 MR. CARROLL:
You find that wall in both plants?
6 MR. MAXWELL Yes.
Then we have the black, cross-7 hatched plan of floor and means that that's a fire barrier 8
floor.
9 MR. MICHELSON What's the colored cross hatch 10 mean?
11 MR. MAXWELLt The colored cross hatch is down here 12 in Note 6, but it means that that's an area that has some
['N 13 safety related equipment in it, but it's primarily non-14 safety related.
In this particular example here, there will 15 be Division II Reactor Building closed cooling water piping 16 go down this corridor and most of t'.ne equipment her.
17 let's see, it's reactor water cleanup system, I believe.
18 It's non-safety related.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
From the viewpoint of being 20 concerned about the quality of your barriers betwcen safety 21 and non-safety, there is no barrier between the safety and 22 the non-safety, for instance, on the yellow side there.
When they're cross-hatched, yes, I
24 there is no barrier, l
7-d 25 MR. MICHELSON :
Now, apparently the symbolism if
i 30 1
the door is not darkened in, it is not a fire door?
\\
'\\
/
2 MR. MAXWELLt If it's a door in a wall that's 3
black, it's a fire door.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
If it's -- whethor it's 5
darkened up or not, it's a fire door?
6 MR. MAXWELL Yes.
7 MR. MICHELSON!
Okay.
8 MR. MAXWELL The darker ones are the one that I 9
added, basically.
10 MR. CARROLL:
One other piece of confusion.
I had 11 my mind all made up that you have three divisions and now 12 we've got four.
What's going on there?
~}
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay, we have three divisions of l
v 14 emergency core cooling and support systems.
We have four 15 divisions of sensors.
16 MR. CARROLL:
Sensors, okay.
17 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay, and that fourth division does 18 not have a diosol standby power system.
It has a battery 19 and I look at it as being more as a -- it's a safety 20 division, but it's also more of a plant production type 21 nystem because it gives you two out of four logio and allows 22-you to have one more failure without shutting the plant 23 down.
24 MR. CARROLL:
Okay, then, just one other questiont 7-(
)
t 25 what process do you use for these pretty colored drawings?
31 1
Is this is color xerox or what?
2 MR. MAXWELL:
It's Canon on the reproduction.
3 It's a plastic film overlay on the sheets.
It's a little 4
bit of effort.
This is how I keep the separation clear in 5
my own saind.
I work with colored pencils, but they don't 6
reproduce this way, so this is a special set so that we can j
7 see what the plant design really is.
8 kay, any other questions on this particular half 1
9 of the first sheet?
10 MR. MICHELSON:
I guess we had so much discussion 11 I'm not quite sure what the big point was that you wanted to 12 make on that half.
What was that?
()
13 MR. MAXWELL:
We have the notes here.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
I've got that.
15 MR. MAXWELL:
You should look at those and you can 16 tell what's been added.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
But there was nothing important 18 about that drawing at the top of your slide?
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Other than it shows a fire barrier 20 wall here.
It becomes really more important when you look 21 at the other half of the drawing because this is just the l__
22 extent at a higher elevation.
=
.23 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, in looking at your drawing, 24 of' course I look out beyond the drawing to the control 9
25 building.
The wall between; how do I know that that's a l
1
32 1
fire barrier wall or not, between the control building and i
\\#
2 the reactor building?
~
3 MR. MAXWELL All exterior walls are 3-hour fire 4
rated walls.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
That means there are fire doors on 6
all of them?
7 MR. MAXWELL Yes.
8 MR. MICHELSON On all elevations?
9 MR. MAXWELL Yes.
1 10 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, the reactor containment, the 11 concrete portion which, again, is not darkened, that's 12 really a fire barrier wall also; is that right?
/~
(
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, it is.
It's a --
x 14 MR. MICHELSON:
The problem I have is that I think 15 you -- do you have an annulus in there?
16 MR. MAXWELL:
No, not on this.
l 17 MR. MICHELSON:
None at all, okay.
That's right, i
I guess that was just hha liner on the inside.
18 l
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Oh, I did miss a slide.
You were l
20 correct.
I missed a slide on our special cases.
We'll go 21 back and get that later.
22 The problem on the containment, the difficulty 23 there is the penetrations.
We're going to talk about those 24 in a little bit, too.
You know, you have a main steam line, I(
25 for instance penetrating the containment --
33 1
MR. MICHELSON:
Now, you didn't show us the other i
2 side of that first slide that you he.d there.
Was there some 3
reason?
It was the basement elevation.
You're already up 4
one elevation.
5 MR. MAXWELL:
I've got my flimslos mixed up.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
I've got a question on the 7
basement elevation.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Somehow I've got a 1-B up here.
It 9
should have been right here.
Here it is.
10 (Slide.)
11 MR. MAXWELLt Here it is.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
Ir. the case of an elevator, for
, g) 13 instance, there are stairwells and as long as the next
(
14 elevation, up and down, are also blue in that area, then no 15 firewalls are needed; that's your -- as soon as you --
16 MR. MAXWELL:
We didn't cross hatch those in.
17 Actually, they will be fire barriers for personnel access.
18 When you go through a division barrier, yes, you have to 19 have it.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
As you move up through the l
21 building, just flipping the pages, as long as that elevator 22 remains in a blue zone, when you get to the next elevation, l
23 you're okay.
It looks like if it changes to a different r~s 24 zone color, then you have to put a fire barrier around it.
25 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
I
1 34 1
MR. MICHELSON:
But that wasn't what was done.
~..
14' qualification.
Apparently.those doors-come much closer to l
15.
three hours in their duration.
16 MR. CATTON:
I'm wondering why,you just take this 17 door as-given'for three hours.
1 l
18-
~MR. MAXWELL:
Because it's got a standard that 19
-says it's been tested,in a wall with'the hardware that the
.20 door would utilize in its actual application with a furnace p-21 created fire.- It's on the inside of the room that meets.
22
- when you'say the three hour -- the E-119 curve which gives 23 you a temperature'with time. curve that you -- that furnace jr g 24 has to produce.
e
',] -
N 25 Then it gives you defined temperatures that you 1
58 1
1 can experience on the outside of the door and the amount of l
\\:
'db 2
leakage through the door and the --
i 3
MR. CATTON:
How do you get leakage through the 4
door.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
You don't get leakage.
6 MR. MAXWELL:
Around the cracks.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
They allow negative pressure on 8
the fire side.
That's part of the problem with the test, t
9 which is an unrealistic test in terms of real world fires in q
10' rooms and chances of negative pressure are probably somewhat 11 low.
12 MR. CATTON:
I have also heard that even within
(
)
.13 the National Bureau of Standards -- they have a group who
-14 have been studying fires for years and there is a great deal 15L of, disagreement about the-meaning of these various tests 16
- that qualified a door for three hours.
I think whenLthere's 37 something like that, you guys ought to look at it and not 18-just take it off the shelf as a three hour door.
19 I don't'know how many other of these standards are 20 used.
How do you decide that a given penetration is good
-l
'21
-for three hours?
22.
MR. MAXWELL:
Again by' test, but, you know --
l 23 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, the realism of the test --
a g-\\
24 MR.' CATTON:
There are tests and there are tests, D
r 25 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
o l'
i
59 1-MR. CATTON:
I mean, you know this if you try to 2
light a-log in your fireplace.
3 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct, and that's why, with 4
this furnace test, there's a specific curve that you have to 5
fol).ow on the temperature profile.
It's not how you happen 6
to light your log, whether it's wet or dry, it's a
-7 reproducible test.
Now, if the --
8 MR. CATTON:
Now reproducible, does that mean that 9
you take that door, and you're going to put a heat flux on i
the face of it that s the same as you're going to get in 10
,11 this area that you're isolating */
112 =
MR. MAXWELL:
No.
We're saying that that is l-13 what's been tested.
Now, if the fire in the area exceeds
-14
- that curve,. then there's a question as to whether the door 15-would meet the design criteria for the temperature on the-16 outside face, or warping of the door.
17 MR. CATTON:
I mean, th'is.is so simplistic.
This 18 is the kind of. thing I give students in a junior heat 19'
-transfer class.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
This is one of the reasons why we 21 would like to get a copy of the specification being used for 22 three-hour fire barrier doors, and we are also going to 23 pursue the meaningfulness of the tests themselves.
MR. WILKINS:
These are not your tests.
These
' 9 24 25 are the underwriters.
-=
60 1
MR. CATTON:- Well, they're essentially just S-2 ~
saying, Gee, three hours, we'll take it, and I think it 3-needs more than that.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
We wonder why GE accepts it 9
5 without question.
6 MR. CATTON:
Well, it's not just GE; it's i
7 everybody.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, everybody.
GE is the one 9
we're --
10 MR. MAXWELL:
Now, we haven't accepted-them 11 without question.
We have looked at the tests,_the test l-12 procedures and requirements.
We've observed tests, and, you
)
13 know, it appears to be a good way to test --
14-
'MR. MICHELSON:
Let me ask a couple questions l
15 about the -- indeed, did you_ recognize that the pressure may 16-be positive in the room instead of negative in the room 17 where'the fire is located?
I think it's more likely to-be i
l
'18-
. positive and negative, in fact.
Now, what does the positive 19 pressure on the face of the door do to the validity of-the 20 fire test that was done with an allowable negative pressure
-E 21.
on the door?
22 MR. MAXWELL:
It then gives you a leakage out 23 through the door.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
Or inward, the door would be
-~
A 25 leaking from the cool side back to the warm side, and that's
l i
l 61 1
why the door lasted three hours, because it didn't suck the Jr~m(
5.sl 2
flame through, it blew it backwards.
In other words, it got 3-rid of the problem that Browns Ferry had when the candle was 4
sucked into the flammable material.
That's why they allow 5
the negative pressure.
Also, they like to because it makes 6
the test easier and so forth to keep a negative pressure on 7
the fire side.
You'd have to exhaust all the smoke, and 8
that creates negative pressure.
9 MR. CATTON:
Now., the English have decided that t
i.
0 10 they need to vent these rooms to keep the pressure-from i
11 rising.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
The English also had a problem
(
13 with --
s-L 24 MR. CATTON:
Because they had a concern about the 15 three-hour door remaining a three-hour door when there was
[
16 pressure built'up in theEconfined region.
17 MR. MAXWELL:
That's what I stated earlier, that 18 we do vent the rooms, we keep them at negative pressure.
19 That's why we do, so that the leakage is into the fire area l
20 and not out of the fire: area.
l 21 MR. MICHELSON:
But you do that with a non safety l
22' related piece of equipment?
1 23 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
24 MR. WILKINS:
Did you make any determination that g
g-U 25 likely fires -- I don't know quite what that phrase means l'
1
i 62
'l since-fires _are unlikely, anysay -- but the more likely of
,y
%g -
'2 the unlikely fires wou'.d, in fact, be contained within an
'3 envelope that was in the testing conditions?
4 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
5 MR. WILKINS:
I am glad you understood my question 6
because I'm not sure I phrased it correctly.
7 MR. MAXW2.4:
Okay.
If I understood your 8
question, in areas where we might get fires that would 9
approach a three-hour fire with materials, flammable 10 materials that are there, like a day tank room or a diesel' 11 generator room, we've.provided suppression, fixed automatic 12 suppression, and that should contain the fire, suppress the b
13 fire, at something less than that test curve.
'd 14' In other areas of the plant, where we do not have 15 automatic suppression, there'isn't a fire load there that 16 would give you a fire that would approach that test curve.
17.
If you take into consideration transi'ent loading, then, you E18 know, how much loading would you bring into an area,-would i
19 you-allow with your housekeeping procedures to be in an 20 area?
21' Again, we're debating that some, but we've looked 22 at the fire you get from a garbage bag of protected 23 clothing, for instance.
We've done some furnace tests on 24 those, and again, that would be considerably less.
One bag
)
-g g
25 would be less.
How many bags, then, are you going to allow
63 1
to burn?
2 You think in terms, Well, a temporary change area 3
due to spot contamination in the plant.
Well, maybe there 4
would be three or four bags in that area where they're 5
changing clothing, and they'd have to take the -- not allow 6
-them to accumulate.
Any of those are below the curve if the 7
fire is not even suppressed.
Of course, then we provide 8
manual suppression means to extinguish the fire.
9 MR.'CATTON:
If I read the FSAR, will I find 10 reference to this?
11 MR. MA)WELL:
To this testing?
No.
In the 12 current version, we're adding a section which discusses that 13 in more detail.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, where is the fire protection 15 features discussed in the-SAR?
Where are they discussed?
16 MR. MAXWELL:
Nine-point-four-point-five, as I 17 recall, and.the fire hazard analysis is 9A.
18-MR. MICHELSON :
I know where-the fire hazard 19 analysis is,_and it didn't tell me much about the features, 20 but as I recall, the features are virtually undescribed in-21 the SAR, but I'll go back and refresh my memory on that real 22-quick.
I looked.for them.
23 MR. CATTON:
I think what you're facing is the 24 Sandia report and what-the English did, and the question is O
25 why did they do it?
Why don't you have to do it, take the
l I
i 64 1
same kinds of precautions?
m 3"r
'2 MR. MICHELSON:
The English address some of the 3
same problems that Sandia did and did it totally independent 4
and before Sandia-ever addressed it.
In fact, it was one of 5
the reasons why we asked them to go back and take a look, 6
because we weren't sure who to believe.
So Sandia, i
m i
7 hopefully independently, went back and looked at the
{
't 8
problems again, and arrived, I think, at most of the basic 9
same conclusions.
It would be well for you to look at the l
10 English report, if you haven't.
It's a rather nice I
11 document, also.
12 MR. CATTON:
Well, is it proprietary?
Maybe they l'
13 can't get it.
f V)'
I t
14 MR. MICHELSON:
No,'it.isn't proprietary.
They l
15 have to pay for it, though.
It costs about $400, I believe.
I' 16 It's a commercial document.
It's for sale.
Lw 17 MR. CARROLL:
Do you know the-document they're
'18-talking about? -
H 119 MR. MAXWELL:
No, I don't.
We'll gladly supply the reference.-
It's a study done in connection with 22 Sizewell B..
i 23 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
24 MR. CATTON:
It's actually a very nice study, and jf g V) 25 I think it has relevance here.
65 1
MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, very much so.
Well, I think 2
that before we get done on ABWR, you will have to answer why 3
the features that Sizewell B added are really not necessary 4
- for an ABWR,_and it would be a very easy exercise, I think, 5
when it has to be done.
The pressure build-up is one of the 6
questions.
It isn't addressed in the SAR, and needs to be.
7 If it's a non-problem, fine.
All the better.
8-MR. CATTON:
And I'd like to see reference to 9
these studies.that you feel demonstrate the adequacy of the 10 UL testing for your purposes.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
Let me point out that Section 951 12 in_the SAR, which is the fire protection section, there's h
13 really no detail at all, no flew diagrams, no nothing.
I
-14 don't know what the fire protection looks like even for this
'15 -
plant.
I don't know where devices are-located, and so 16. -
forth.
I don't know what'the flow diagram looks like.
17
-There isn't one.
18 It's about three pages long.
Most-of it is a 19' listing of all the codes and standards.
20 MR. MAXWELL:
Building arrangement-drawings are in 21 9-A.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
No, 9-A is your hazard study.
23-That's what I started with first and it's not in there either.
In-there are the answers and what you have done is 9
24 25 simply _ catalogued through the plant all the items in each
t 66 j
1 room and looked at those items collectively and said what l'~\\;
j
[\\ /
2 happens if I lose their function?
Can I still safely shut 3
down?
4 That is all that's in there.
That's it.
That's 5
why we are going to go back and ask you to come in 6
separately-to talk about this at a later date, because it's 7
an analysis _that blows my mind and is not really even what' 8
we talked about earlier today.
9 MR. CATTON:
It has to be after my tutorial.
l 10 MR. CARROLL:
So you'll be smart by then.
' 11.
MR. CATTON:
Not necessarily but at least there is 12 a better chance.
l- [Y 13 MR. CARROLL:
So yeu'll be knowledgeable anyway..
v
~
14 MR. CATTON:
Even that's iffyl 15
' MR. MICHELSON:
Let's proceed.
16 MR._ MAXWELL:' Okay.
Have you got to the remove 17 shutdown panel?
Primary containment, of course there are
.18 four divisions of equipment in there and we attempt to keep 19 the equipment separated as much as possible into four l
20 quadrants'of the containment.
21 The containment is inerted during operation so 22 there would not be a fire possible there.
L i'
23 MR. CARROLL:
Except tur the first 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />, l
L
'24 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, while you are inerting the ge 3.
~-]
^
25 containment and --
1 l!
l l-
67 1
MR. MICHELSON:
You do have spray in both the 2
upper and the lower portion of the containment which you 3
could use, I gather, if necessary.
4 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
What its pattern looks like I 6
don't know for sure but I assume it is a pretty uniform 7
pattern?
8 MR. MAXWELL:
That is what I understand, yes.
9 MR. CARROLL:
during non-power operation modes did 10-your shutdown risk analysis come up with any problems inside g
11
_the primary. containment?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
No, because when you shut down, of l g 13:
course-your decay heat is dropping off on you.
The other 14
. thing is that-inside primary containment in order to inject 15 water into the vessel, for instance, to the RHR lines, once 16
.you'are down, depressurized, the-only thing that prevents 17 you from injecting water into the vessel that could fail 18 maybe-is a check valve.
19 That check valve is sitting in there immersed in 20:
water and-it's -- again, there are three of them on 21 quadrants' grounds, so the failure of them, of all three or E22 even one due to fire'in containment, we don't think is 23 credible.
24 You don't need the high pressure spray and the 9
25 same goes for the high pressure also.
There are check
68 1
-valves in their injection lines.
To get uater into the
(?s>'-
2 vessel with'a fire in containment, assuming some way that l
3
-when you went inert that you did get a fire going, you could 4
still get water in the vessel to keep the water level up.
5 Then you need to get some valves open, ADS or 6
7 MR.-CARROLL:
They are outside of containment.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
No.
Some are inside.
9 Again, the electrical -- you could envision that 10 being destroyed by fire at a certain -- again, when you 11 aren't inerted -- but they spring leaks on--them and the high i
12 pressure core flooder pumps are capable of injecting against
[\\
13 those spring relief pressures so that they could push the
. w.).
14 relief valves open and relieve.
15 The heat on the valve should weaken the spring and
=
16 lower its setpoint actually.
17 Again they are scattered around the vessel.
]
18-MR. CARROLL:
Best of all, you don't go to mid-19-loop operation'when_you're shut down.
E2 0 -
MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct, s
21.
Then we have what we call special cases.
22 Let me give you.an example.
I 23 For instance, in one of~the blue areas'of the 24 floor there in a pump room we have leak detection 25-thermocouples that tell you if you get a high temperature in i
m
i 69 1
'the area that maybe you've got a line break.
\\_/
2 In order to have redundancy so that the single 1
3 failure of one of those detectors doesn't cause you to get a a
4 false alarm, we put a second division of leak detection 5
thermocouples in that division one room.
I 1
6 In that case each one of those cases is analyzed.
7 For the thermocouple, why, the cabling is routed in 8
instrument tray and conduit with low level signals.
There i
9 are no power cables with them and a f're could either cause 10 an open or short.
It wouldn't affect anything other than i
11
.that particular circuit.
12 Each one of these cases is analyzed and listed in 13 that section 9A.5.5.of the fire hazard analysis as to why
]
[)
.i s,
14 it's acceptable.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Just for clarification, I was
{
4 16' trying to flip to see if I could find the statement again.
17 I didn't recall seeing a statement that clearly indicated i
18 that you did the analysis of fire for all operating i
E19 -
con'ditions including shutdown.
Is that true, that you look l
20 at fire at any point in the operation including shutdown?
21 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
So the analysis should include i
23 that.
i 24 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
J (
25 MR. MICHELSON:
What kind of assumptions do you
nt 7o l'
make?- Do you assume that you stay within the tech specs, 2
whatever the tech specs allow to be taken out during s
3 shutdown you have already taken out, then, was that the kind 4
.of assumption you make and you were dealing at the time of 5
the fire only with the minimum set of equipment required to 6
be operable under tech specs?
Is that the approach you use?
7 8
I'll have to go back and read it.
I don't 9
believe this was discussed in the SAR and it really should 10 be.
If those are the kind of rules you use, then if I knew i
- 11 the rules.I probably wouldn't worry about the details but I 12
'am trying to find the rules.
13-MR. MAXWELL:
I agree. That's not in there.
We 14-are revising that section.
15 Okay, pressing on then --
16 MR. CARROLL:
Before you do that, you first showed 17-us Figure 1-B, which had a couple of corners, or whatever in 18:
here.
How did those relate to Figure 1-A? 'What are those?
19 MR. WILKINS:
They've got the coordinates marked.
20 I caught myself checking that first one.
21 MR. CARROLL:
1 see.
Yes..Okay.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
It isn't quite the.same thing.
23 MR. MAXWELL:
1-B, this corner up here, 1-B, is a
'2 4 -
detail at an elevation above.
25 MR. MICHELSON:
It's a graded floor.
71 g)---
1 MR. MAXWELL:
It's a graded floor.
2 MR. MICHEISON:
Okay.
3 MR. MAXWELL:
Sort of a mezzanino, over here in 4-the corner, and you can line it up by looking at the rows 5
and columns.
6 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
Because I didn't find the u
7 doors.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
No, it's an elevation.
9 MR. MAXWELL:
And the fire barrier that you see, L
10 the wall there, is the continuation of that fire --
11 MR. CARROLL:
How do I tell what elevation it is
[
l --
12 on these drawings?
in
'(
):
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, there's a block right
'14 -
underneath there that says TMSL minus 4400, right under the p
15 16 MR. MICHEISON:
Yes, I see that.
But I look down-17 of the bottom of the legend and it says TMSLE 200.
So 82 is 18 the ground floor, and minus 4400 is the mezzanine?
E i
19 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
20 MR. CARROLL:
What does the 82 and 44 mean?
21 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, Tokyo means sea level, with 22 respect to-Tokyo meaning sea level.
23 MR. CARROLL:
What are the units of 8200?
j-sc 24 MR. MAXWELL:
Millimeters.
25 MR. CARROLL:
Millimeters.
3 72 l'
MR. MAXWELL:
We're metric.
And it's minus 8200
~/
2 millimeters below sea level.
3 MR. CARROLL So we're talking about 3800 4
millimeters.
5 MR. WILKINS:
Now, I know what it is.
It's about' 6
11 yards.
"7 MR. MICHELSON:
A good ceiling height.
t 8
MR. CARROLL:- So this is below sea level?
L 9
MR. MICHELSON:
I guess the staff must have known 10 that.
11 MR. MILLER:
Wasn't it obvious?
12 (Laughter.]
V
,~) '
13 MR. CARROLL:
And then the-other guy up there is
.( j 14 the same thing in the, if I find the right coordinates, yes, 15 okay.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
What we,need is an elevation l
17 through the plant, which we' don't have.
I've got;one from 18 the~SAR, but it's not so pretty.
19 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
I'm happy.
l l
20 MR. MAXWELL:
See, on these drawings, then, unless c.
21 stated otherwise, the elevation is'the elevation of the 22 drawing.
l 23
[ Slide.)
gra.-
24 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Now, we're up one floor.. And E t' 25 this is at minus 1700.
t
73 1
MR. CATTONt Where you have NFW pointing at a 2
door, does that mean you replaced the door with a wall?
NFW 3,
means new fire wall.
4 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, let's see.
Where --
'S MR. CATTON:
Right at-the top.
That one right 6
there.
7 MR. CARROLL:
No, it means he put a door in.
He 8
put a door in that the Japanese didn't have.
9 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
10 MR. CATTON:
What does NFW mean that's right 11 there?
12 MR. CARROLL:
New fire wall --
13 MR. MICHELSON:
-- the rest of that black new fire
.14 wall up there?
15 MR. CATTON:
But'the arrow points right at the 16 door.
=17 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, it's'a new fire wall with a 18 door.
-19' MR. MICHELSON:
The whole black line at the top 20 there a new fire wall?
21 MR. MAXWELL: 'This is designating this as a wall.
-22 The wall was there.' It's designated as a wall.
And this 23 actually is a fire wall and a door here.
Because we show 24 the door being full width here.
But I don't think it's 25.
quite the full width.
We haven't worked that out yet.
74-1 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh.
So you'll have a spec on s-
- 2
_ double fire doors as well as the single fire door?
3 MR. MAXWELL:
Right.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
That's a different test.
Quite a 5-bit different test for a double fire door.
1 6
MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Now, on this, if you'll note, 7
again we have the blue as Division 1 in the center up here, 8
and then over on the right side, Division-3, and on the 9
left, Division 2.
10 And'the' thing to note here is the divisions are
-11 lined up vertically. -And if you, for instance, if you' punch 12 through the blue floorj you'll be into a blue area, f
13-Now, if'you come around on the Division 3, part of-
- s. f 14 that floor there is cross-hatched.
And that means that it's 15 a fire barrier floor.
And below that floor is a Division 1 16
. area.
So it's a barrier between divisions.
17 MR.'MICHELSON:- What does a fire barrier floor 18' mean?
What'all'would be required besides the concrete be 19 designed to be rated for three hours?
What about cracks, i
- H3 and what about joints and hatches and all the other things
.21 that have to be watertight?
22 MR. MAXWELL:
They have to be rated equivalent to 23
.the three-hour --
24 MR. MICHELSON:
The three-hour fire barrier g-~g
\\_s/
25 doesn't require watertightness of the structure.
A
c 75 1
MR. MAXWELL:
That's a separate itam.
2 MR. MICHELSON:
And where will t'.lat be found, or 3
how will I know that that's going to be a watertight floor 4
and not just a fire barrier?
5 MR. MAXWELL:
That's part of the structural 6
. details of the drawing.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, it's going to be prescribed 8
somewhere, I assume.
And I'm asking where will be it 9
prescribed, and I'll read it and find out what you do.
10 Because fire barrier floor doesn't do that alone, unless you 11 write a special spec. for fire barrier floors that include 12 their ability.to hold back water levels of a certain number h
13 of inches, and all that sort of thing.
14 MR. MAXWELL:
I agree.
Yes.
15' MR. CARROLL:
But it:is your intent that these 16-hatches in the crosshatched area would be watertight?
17 MR. MAXWELL:
Gary?
Would you'like to --
18 MR. EHLERT:
I believe they'll either be, they'll 19 probably be watertight, but they'll also probably have a 20 raised lip to prevent the bonding from coming into the door.
21-I'd have to really get out the spec and read it and find out 22 what'.s going on.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
And if it's a raised lip, you have 24 to show you can drain the water mitigation, the fire 25 mitigation materials away fast enough to keep from getting
76 1
over the lip, with a certain number of them plugged and all 2
that other kind of thing.
3 MR. CARROLL:
Because a red fire, and lots of 4
' water in the red area, if those weren't watertight, could 5
get water into the blue area.
6
-MR. EHLERT:
That's right.
7 MR. CATTON:
What about the hatches?
I'm 8
wondering what kind of fire standard they have to meet, and 9
how do_you decide?
Is it the same UL code?
'10 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
11-MR. CATTON:
But vertical is different than 12-horizontal when you're doing fire testing.
Do they have a jl f 113 code for horizontal surfaces heated from below?
14 MR. MAXWELL:
I don't recall the number for the 15' openings in floors.
16 MR. CATTON:
When you redo you SAR, those things 17:
would be called out.
Is that correct?
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
And if you're using seals on 19 the hatches to assure the water doesn't get away, you have 20 to show that those seals are' rated for 3 hours3.472222e-5 days <br />8.333333e-4 hours <br />4.960317e-6 weeks <br />1.1415e-6 months <br />, also, and so
'21 on.
I don't think we'll have time to go into many of these,-
22 but we're going to select one or two aind go through enough 23 to assure ourselves it's done properly.
?
24 MR. CATTON:
I would hope that, in the right
'section of the SAR, we'll be able to dig ourselves, if we 25-
3 77 d:
1 need to.
j_
l
).
5 /-
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
3 Let me also ask:
If a red area -- in going up u.
4 through-a building, if a red area doesn't have cross-hatches 5
on it indicating something special, then I assume that these 6
floors are not necessarily watertight at all, that water can 7
run from the highest elevation of red down to the lowest 8
elevation of red.
Is that right?
9 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, it's my understanding that 10 those. hatches are watertight.
11-MR. MICHELSON:
That's where you've got a barrier 12 now between two divisions, but are all your stairwells and s
fj 13 all your hatches and all your floor joints and all the other L
14
-things going to be watertight, even if it isn't a firei 15 barrier?
16.
MR. MAXWELL:
I have been told yes.
17 Gary, am I-correct?
18' MR. EHLERT:' I think you're correct, but I'm 19 trying to figure out where it's stated.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
These are the kinds of things that 21-need to be described in a safety-analysis report, and then a 22 fellow reads it and says yes, that sounds like they're taken 23L care of, and he goes on, or he says, well, maybe I-want to e-24-check one of these; I'll pick one and check it.
25 I don't find the words to even start with.
Maybe l
78 1
I'm just not very good at finding -- wandering through all N/-
2 the words.
Just point out where they are, and I'll be happy
'3 to read them.
l 4
MR. CARROLL:
He's good at that.
1 5~
MR. MAXWELL:
The other thing, then, that I'd 6
point out is that the reactor building closed cooling-water i.
L 7.
. piping that came through on the lower floor comes up onto 8
this floor, also, in the three areas, and there are cable l
9 trays,-cable risers coming down from the ficor abn"e and n
l.
10 going to the' floor below that go through the different-i o
~
il colored areas.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, your control building, I o!
l%.)
11 3 ;
ibelieve, isJat the top of this drawing, if I' recall r
l' 14:
correctly,
' 15 -
MR. MAXWELL:
Thdi's correct.
't
- 16 MR. MICHELSON
Now, there are some very large 11 7 component 1 cooling-water linesithat must be-penetrating, 181 somehow, through'some of these walls to get into these areas l'
19
.that they serve.
How do.you treat 1those penetrations, since
-I 20
-they're not shown on the drawings as being fire barriers?
l L
21 That wall is not shown as a fire barrier.
How l.
22.
.about the penetrations of that wall?
What do I know about 23 them in terms of fire tightness and watertightness or g pg 24 anything else?
' V 25 MR. EHLERT:
The main closed cooling water comes
79 u
1' 1.
in through the basement level.
As/
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, but it --'
L I
l 3
MR. EHLERT:
The main lines.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, but it doesn't show on the 5
drawing, so I don't know where and how.
Now, clearly, L
L 6
though,_that is not shown as a fire-barrier wall.
At least, 1
l 7
on this-drawing, it's not shown as a fire-barrier wall.
I l
y 8
MR. MAXWELL:
I got notification of this meeting, l
.9 and I put these drawings together, and I didn't go around l
10 all the outside walls.
The outside walls are fire barriers 1
11 and will be marked as such in the fire-hazard analysis, l
1 i
12-MR. MICHELSON:
When we mark a wall as a fire-1 f-s -
i
()
-13 barrier wall, how about the penetrations?
Do we just know 14 that.this is a watertight wall, as well, or is there some i
l l
_15 extra prescription needed?
l l
16 MR. EHLERT:
On the below-grade areas, it's L
-i l
17 probably going to be backfilled.
l 18 MR. MICHELSON:
No.
The control building is on' j
h L
19 the other side.
j U
i 20 MR. EHLERT:
Yes, but there_three meters between j
L 21 the two buildings, or two meters, something like that.
i 22 MR. MICHELSON:
In the elevation of the basement, l
23 you may be right.
That was a problem I had.
I couldn't I
24 read the control building elevations, because they don't
{
gs
' k 25 match the reactor building elevations.
j i
i
?
l
80
-1 MR. EHLERT:
The top of the basement for the two 2
buildings are actually matching.
.3 MR. MICHELSON:
Ground elevations are matching, 4
not in number but in idea.
5 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
So, where does that put the 7
basement of the control building relative to the basement of
-8 the reactor building?
9-MR. EHLERT:
They match.
There is a difference in 10 elevation, because the control building --
11:
MR. MICHELSON:
Well, then, the control building, 12 indeed, is down all the way to the bottom.
13 MR.'EHLERT:
Yes.
14' MR. MICHELSON:
And indeed, then, there is another 15 building.
16 MR. EHLERT:
There is still a gap between the two 17
. buildings.
The buildings are-not flush.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
I wouldn't know that from anything 191 I have. looked at so far.
20.
MR. EHLERT:
It's stated in Chapter 3.
21' MR. MICHELSON:
So, that's a watertight gap, then?
-22 Is that what you're saying?
Ai 23 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
It's filled in with soil.
I0 24 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, that doesn't make it
-25 watertight.
f 81 1
MR. EHLERT:
No, it's-not watertight.
f'Nj
-( /
2 MR. MICHELSON:
If I bust one of these big pipes 3
over in the control building and build up a lot of pressure 4
in the room, you're telling me it won't push on into the i
5 reactor building.
That's what I'm asking.
You're sure that 6
it will not push on.it.
7 MR. EHLERT:
I don't think so, because the wall 8
itself is designed for the hydrostatic head, because we 9
assume the elevation of the -- let's just say the water 10 table is only up 2 feet below grade.
11-MR.. MICHELSON:
It must be a watertight wall then.
12 MR. EHLERT:
- Yes, It's got to keep the building
['i 13 from flooding.urrfrom the outside pressure.
14-
-MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
Then it's a watertight
,all.
Then that's the answer.
Okay.
'15-w 16 MR. MAXWELL:
Going back, if it's a fire-barrier
- 17 wall,.then the penetrations have to have a fire rating equal 118 to the rating of the wall.
If it's a'3-hour wall, which the 19 outside walls are, then the penetrations of pipe through 20 there would have tx> be sealed with a penetration that's
~
3 21' equivalent 3-hour rating for fire.
And what I call the-22 reactor building closed-cooling-water system is what I
.23 believe you are calling component cooling.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
- s, Tss/
25 MR. MAXWELL:
So, they come in at the lower
82
) elevation and rise up and -- on this floor, and there are j_
Lt A-2' some valves up'on this floor.
3 Gary, do you know, is the interface drawing in the 4
SSAR?
5 MR. EHLERT:
I don't think there is a drawing per 6
se, but there is a table in Chapter 6 listing all the 7
reactor building penetrations in their elevations.
}
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Are there any further questions on l
9 this?-
10' MR. MICHELSON:
Now, the component cooling --
11 well, you call'it the -- what is it?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Reactor building closed. cooling-b 13 water.
i L
\\_/-
l.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
The RBCCW -- on that Figure 2A, di:
.15 which is the one you have there, the red part comes in in
-16
.the red area?
'f 17 MR. MAXWELL:
In the red area.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
So, it comes in above'the floor of 19 the' red area.
If it came in below the floor, it would be in H
u E
20.
tae corner or in the blue area.
E 21 MR. MAXWELL:
No.
It's in the corner.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
It comes in on the 1A drawing in l'
'23 the red area.
fv 24 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
Is that right?
And the blue one r
l l
l'
83 1
comes in in the blue area on the 1A.
Ik ')
2 MR. MAXWELL Correct.
3 MR. CARROLL And it all comes in on the yellow.
4 How do you know the equipment hatch into the 5
primary containment is 3-hour rateo?
6 T.R. MAXWELLt That is to be by analysis to be 7
equivalent, and that's -- you know, how do you test one of 8
thosa?
9 MR. CARROLLt That's why I asked the question.
10 MR. MAXWELL:
It has to be by analysis.
11 MR. CARROLL I suspect it is.
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Any C cther questions on this before 1
()
13 we go on with the next?
14 MR. MICHELSON:
I see none.
15 (Slide.)
16 MR. MAXWELL:
I will now move on to Slide 2B, l
17 which is the mezzanine area.
Are there any questions on 1
18 that?
l.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
Are you going to tell us all about 1
I 20 the ventilation later as a separate iter, nr are you telling 21 us as we go along?
22 MR. MAXWELL:
I was going to zero in on it, but 23 let me just stop for a minute and talk a little bit about
- e 3 24 it.
\\
25 All of this floor and all of the floor below it 1.
84 1
are in secondary containment.
As we get up farther in the
'\\
J 2
plant, why we will see that only portions of the floors are j
~
l 3
4 So, when we are talking about the secondary 5
containment ventilation system, we are talking about that is 6
the system for this floor and the floor below it.
7 Again, the supply and exhaust fer the Division 1 8
area comes down a duct shaft here on this elevator shaft in 9
the Division 1 area.
The Division 2 area has a similar 10 shaft and the Division 2 exhaust and supply comes down that 11 shaft all the way from the top.
Division 3 --
12 MR. MICHELSON:
Where is that shaft shown on the 1
13 drawing?
l L
14 MR. MAXWELL:
It is right behind the elevator.
15 MR. EHLERT:
Yes, it is south of the elevator.
16 MR. MAXWELL:
Both elevators have a ventilation i
17 shaft.
l 18 MR. MICHELSON:
In one case it seems to be labeled 19 like what, DG?
20 MR. EHLERT:
That is DS, duct space.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
That is dedicated just to ducts?
l 22 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Are there more than one duct in jy 24 there, or is that a single duct?
25 MR. EHLERT:
There are two ducts.
There is one
85 1
intake and one exhaust.
[
)
V 2
MR. MAXWELL:
That is a difference in the Japanese 3
design.
The Japanene have all of their exhaust on one 4
corner and all of their supply on the other corner of the 5
plant.
6 MR. MICilELSON:
Where are the fans?
Will they be 7
up further in the building somewhere?
8 MR. MAXWILL:
They are out of the building.
9 MR. MICllELSON:
Oh, they are in the turbine 10 building?
11 MR. EllLERT:
That is correct.
12 MR. MAXWELL:
This is a non-safety grade t
13 ventilation cooling system for normal plant operation.
The 14 safety grade cooling is provided for the pump rooms below, 15_
is by room coolers that are run directly off the reactor 16 building closed cooling water system, whi:h is 3 safety 17 grade system on a divisional basis.
18' These rooms now, as we go on up in the building, 19 that are safety related and have area coolers in them that 20 are run off the emergency chilled water system.
They are 21 supplied cooling from the emergency cooled water system, 22 again, on a divisional basis.
23 cfR. MICHELSON:
How do you decide, or under what 24 circumstances do 3 u isolate this non-safety ventilation
'~
25 syntem?
I B6 1
MR. EHLERT:
It receives isolation signals for 2
radiation, from the refueling floor and from the building.
3 Also, that can be manually done by the operator.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
But nothing happening in the lower 5
parts of the building, then, would activate it unless you've 6
enough -- well, is the radiation also off of the lower 7
elevations, as well?
8 MR. EllLERT:
Yes.
There is a sensor in the 9
reactor building exhaust that just measures the radiation.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
From wherever?
11 MR. EHLERT:
From wherever in the building.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
So then, if you see any, you
(,-)
13 isolate all of it?
k-l L
14 MR. EHLERT:
Correct.
l 15 MR. MICHELSON Now, if you get a steam line 16 rupture on the RCIC, which is still steam driven-in this 17 plant, it vents up through this ventilation system, then?
18 MR. EHLERT:
Partially.
There is also a part that 19 probably go up the --
20 MR. MICHELSON:
The only place I see where it can 21 go --
22 MR. EHLERTt_ There is also, if you look on 2A, i
23 there is a huge fire wall area blocked off at about the 90 f-'
24 degree area, where it is labeled RHR and RCIC pipe space.
j 25 MR. MICHELSON:
Yus.
But, that is only venting
~
87 1
into more blue pipe space.
l',
'\\
t V
2 MR. EHLERT:
That is a huge pipe space that vents 3
it all the way up to its penetration and containment.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
That seems to vent into the 5
instrument rack room above, if that is a vent.
Directly 6
above it on the next elevation, which is whatever.
I cannot 7
find a number.
It appears 800, I guess.
No, 4800.
Excuse
)
8 me.
The +4800, that is a rack room at that location.
9 MR. EHLERT:
I believe it is just to the -- it 10 jogs up a touch, up to column line RC, essentially ';etween 11 the hatch and the instrument rack room.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
But it keeps venting on out
- O' 13 somehow?
(
14 MR. EHLERT:
It is not venting on out, it gives it f
15 more space.
But the main --
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Well yes, that is expansion space.
17 But where does the pressure finally get relieved to, and 18 how?
I l
19 MR. EHLERT:
Through the HVAC.
1 20-MR. MICHELSON:
Through this non-essential HVAC7 21 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, what prevents it from l
23 isolating and blowing out the non-essential HVAC ducting 24 somewhere, if the pressure builds up to a pound pressure, 25 for instance?
88 1
MR. EHLERT:
Well, the one thing is it should
,s
[\\ >).
2 vent.
If it starts building up pressure it is going to vent 3
into the whole blue space, eventually.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Hopefully, only the blue space.
5 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
And it is going to build up 7
pressure in the blue space, and it is going to vent out i
8 through the duct.
But you are going to isolate the duct
)
4 9
because you could also get radioactivity with it.
10 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
11
'IR - MICHELSON:
So, when you isolate the duct, 12 then wha' happens?
(
)
13 MR. EHLERT:
SUTS starts up and starts 1,
14' depressurizing the building and treating the exhaust gasses.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Do you think in the meantime you 16 have gotten the steam line out?
You have done the analysis 17 that shows that you can isolate the steam line in time so 18 you don't over-prersurize this blue crea in the process, or 19 blow out the duct work which might now be a duct into l
20 another train of the building?
21 You have told me this all a common duct with just l'
22 some dampers in it.
23 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
But there is only about one 24 small stretch that is common duct, and that is up near the 7,3 V
25 top.
Basically, where it comes in the building.
l
89 1
MR. MICHELSON:
Do mean that all the other routing
,s
(
)
\\/
2
-- do you keep the duct in a blue area all the way up, is 3
that it?
4 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
There is only one area.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
He can do it.
Well, you got to do 6
some developing.
7 MR. WILKINS:
On the next page, on drawing BA --
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Though by the time you get 8A it 9
runs out of blue.
10 MR. PILKINS:
The blue on 7A is at the upper right l
11 hand corner.
l 12 MR. MICHELSON:
But all of this duct is going to l
1
(
I 13 be in its own division?
It is not going to be in other wJ 14 rooms occupied by other divisions, however you do it?
15 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
Except for possibly the one l
16 common duct that feeds in.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
And that is downstream of the 18 isolation dampers, or upstream?
l 19 MR. EHLERT:
It is on the secondary containment 1
20 side.
So, into the building.
Isolation dampers are on the 21 boundary, the building boundary.
l 22 MR. MICHELSON:
They are on the boundary of the l
23 building?
i 1
g3_
24 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
G 25 MR. MICHELSON:
So, it looks like, then, if I a
~%
90 1
isolate at the boundary of the building then, and if I
,_s
(
)
\\/
2 should continue to build up pressure, then I can blow into 3
other parts of the building to relieve the pressure, or it 4
just blows the sheet metal duct?
5 MR. EHLERT:
Well, if you go in further then, at l
6 the divisional split there is a set of three fire dampers.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
These are the kinds of questions 8
eventually I think have to be answered, though however.
I 9
don't even have ficv diagram for the arrangement.
10 MR. CARROLL:
I was wondering about the red area.
11 We have an elevator and a duct in blue and an elevator in 12 yellow.
Where is the duct in red?
(o) 13 MR. MAXWELL:
It doesn't show on this drawing as 14 yet.
This is one of the modifications that we have to make, 15 but'it will be in it.
16 HMR. CARROLL:
But there will be supply and exhaust 17 ducts?
18 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
These are basically t.he 19 Japanese arrangements and we are still in the process of i
making the change that needs to bring them over to the GP of l
20 21 US.
22 MR. MAXWELL:
There will be one in the red area, 23 yes.
That is where Division 3 is.
A supply and a return.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
I assume there will be an analysis g
gA L
that shows the pipe rigs of higher energy like the steam 25
91 1
line for the RCIC will not over pressurize the blue area.
rs' l' >)
2 MR. MAXWELL:
You cannot take account for venting j
3 because I think you are going to isolate that vent in the 4
process.
5 MR. CARROLL:
It won't over-pressurize and blow 6
walls down into areas?
7 MR. MAXWELL:
Not walls, just blow out 8
If you read this english report they havo 9
found their electrical penetrations would only take about 1 10 pound positivo, their three-hour penetrations.
11 So, we are talking about one pound pressure.
We 12 are not talking about blowing concrete out.
Then, once you I
13 blow the penetrations then the barrier is gone and now the (J
w 14 steam goes into train B here, or whatever.
That is the kind
~
15 of thing we want to be sure you have taken care of, somehow.
16 MR. EHLERT:
We will do that.
17 MR.'MICHELSON:
We don't expect you to have all 18 the answers today.
We're just pointing out the concerns and 19 that's the kind of concern -- one of the kinds of concerns 20 you have to look at.
You also have to look at fire in the 21 blue area to make sure that it doesn't build up enough 22 pressure, even if it becomes isolated, that it doesn't build 23 up enough pressure to blow the boundary.
i 24 Those boundaries apparently are quite weak 25 compared with walls.
Even the doors, the pound pressure on l
l l
92 1
the doors is a very significant load and fire doors aren't t
4 k-
2 rated on pounds; they're rated on how many hours they'll 3
survive a certain test fire, not how many pounds of pressure 4
they can take.
5 MR. EHLERT:
All right, we'll note it.
6 MR. CARROLL:
The English solution to this are 7
huge chimneys.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Besides that, they went to 9
bulkhead doors.
Read the English report and then answer why 10 you don't need the things that they seem to think they need.
31 Maybe they're just ultra, ultra conserva'cive.
12 MR. CATTON:
We're going to ask Westinghouse the g
13 same questions, right?
1]
i 14 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
'15 MR. CATTON:
Just to be fair.
16 MR. CARROLL:
Don't feel picked on because you 17 guys are well ahead in terms of N plus 2.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Go ahead.
19 (Slide.)
20 MR. MAXWELL:
I'm through with thin one.
Let's go 21 on to the next.
Let's go up another floor then.
22 MR. CATTON:
We don't want to leave combustion out 23 either.
gs 24 MR. CARROLL:
No, no.
25 MR. MAXWELL:
3-A; now, this floor is where you
93 1
see something other than secondary containment showing up.
2 Basically --
3 MR. CATToil:
I missed something, liow can I tell, 4
looking at this diagram, that something other than secondary 5
containment is showing up?
6 MR. EllLERT:
It's the inner firewall.
7 MR. MAXWELL:
I ran out of colors.
I would liked 8
to have put you a red line right around the inside here on 9
secondary containment so you could see where it is, but I 10 just didn't have time to do it.
11 Secondary containment is a fire barriers as well 12 as secondary containment and it's this black internal line l
T 13 bere.
It goes all the way around.
Then we've got to jump J
14 out here.
l 15 MR. MICHEISON:
Not, in terms of elevation, is the 16 fire -- is that secondary containment defined also as grade 17 elevation, basically?
18 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, it's the same-Way.
It comes L
19 on up here.-
20 MR. MICHELSON:
Elevation, 12,000.
l i'
21 MR. MAXWELL:
Secondary containment goes on up 22 clear to the top of the building.
23 MR. EHLERT:
It includes the refueling area.
24 MR. MAXWELL:
It goes through each floor.
J 25 MR. MICHELSON:
In a colored drawing, I guess
94 1
showing what secondary containment includes -- other
-s
/ T S--
2 drawings.
You need elevations on this thing.
Just showing 3
us plans alone, I think, is a little short.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Isn't the other unique thing here 5
the fact that for the first time we find ourselves a brown 6
area at 3:00?
i 7
MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
That brown area is a Division 4 9
instrument rack room.
10 MR. CARROLL:
Okay, now, you had Division 4 11 instruments at lower elevations.
It's just that they 12 haven't been rooms, right?
It's been --
()
13 MR. MAXWELL:
I would have to check the database L
14 to see, but I'm not aware of any Division 4 instruments at 15 the lower elevations.
There should be, though, I would l
16 think.
17 MR. CHAMBERS:
Most of your Division 4 instruments 18 are going to be inside containment or RPV type instruments.
19 MR. CARROLL:
So this Division 4 instrument room I
20 are where there are penetrations into the primary 21 containment at this elevation for instrumentation.
- Okay, 22 got you.
l 23 MR. MICHELSON:
What does it mean when I see the i
3 24 stairways and the elevator being white?
How do I read that?
l l
d 25 MR. CARROLL:
He ran out of blue.
L f
95 1
MR. MICHELSON:
I think they purposely left it kl 2
white.
3 MR. MAXWELL:
It means they should be black.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Black box completely around them?
5 MR. MAXWELL:
Around the elevators, yes, the 6
elevators and the stairwells.
Again, that's something we 7
just didn't get on the drawing.
8 MR. MICHEISON:
Okay, now, if you colored them in 9
yellow, that means you don't intend to put a box around 10 them; is that right?
In some of the lower elevations, you 11 just' colored them in.
12 Now, on this elevation, you left them white.
In
()
13 2-A, for instanco, it's colored in.
14 MR. CATTON:
It looks like it's the same 15 stairwell, t
16 MR. MICHELSON:
It's the same stairwell.
17 MR. MAXWELL:
It's the same -- now, those l
18 stairwells, we missed on that.
The t~tairwell will be a 19-separate fire area, top to bottom.
20 MR. MICIIELSON:
Okay, it will Le a fire barrier 21 and fire doors?
Will the elevator doors be fire doors then, l
22 too?
23 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
That's another special door to be
_f N~ E 25 qualified.
l
1 96 1
MR. MAXWELL:
That's right.
I'm sorry.
These
~s I
'\\
\\ J' 2
were colored over the weekend.
1 3
MR. CARROLL:
What you are telling me on figure 4
3.A is that, for example, in the yellow area, you should 5
have had black lines around the stairwell and around the 6
elevator on the top there and some sort of fire door into 7
the stairwell?
l 8
MR. EHLERT:
That is correct.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
And into the elevator?
10 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
Are there fire rated elevator 12 doors?
Most people don't even use elevators in fires, so I m
I
)
13 just wondered if they fire-rated the doors where you do.
O 14 Here you've got to worry about it as a chimney.
15 MR. MAXWELL:
I'm told that there are.
I have not 16 seen one.
If there aren't, why, then there will be a 17 separate fire door to be closed with a shaft.
18 MR. CARROLL:
Except that elevator is used for 19 fairly big things, I suspect.
You're going to need a big 20 door because maintenance guys want to wheel dollies with
-21 motors and pumps on them and that sort of stuff.
22 MR. MAXWELL:
It will be as big as the door of the 23 elevator.
24 MR. CARROLL:
Right.
}~)
V 25 MR. WILKINS:
Will the fire door in the elevator 2 4
97 i
1 be designed to keep the fire out or the fire in?
p_
(
)
\\/
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Both because the next floor up may
)
3 be a different division.
4 MR. MAXWELL:
Or, if you get a fire in an elevator 5
shaft, then you don't want it communicating to the floors, 6
so it has to be both, 7
MR. MICHELSON:
Unless you had the same division 8
all the way to the top of the building and then I guess you 9
wouldn't worry abcut it.
10 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, you could legally say that.
11 MR. CARROLL:
But you don't do that.
They go from 12 blue to red on the same floor.
l l
lh
?
i 13 MR. WILKINS:
Yellow to red sometimes.
N._/
14 MR. CARROLL:
Boy, we make these things 1
15 complicated.
16' MR. MICHELSON:
Just my own firsthand observation 17 after really trying to look at this thing a couple of days 13 ago was that, gosh, why isn't this a lot cleaner?
It could 19 have been a lot cleaner, although I think the reason is that 20 you would have had to start out with a clean piece of paper 21 and you didn't want to start out with a clean piece of 22 paper.
'23 The other vendors that are coming in are much r3 24 cleaner in this regard than wnat you're showing here in 25 terms of vertical cleanliness.
It's all the serue division,
=.
98 1
)
1 all the way up from basement to the attic.
,x
/
i
?N/
2 You're mish-mashing.
You're crossing floors, so 3
now you need some fire barrier floors.
They've also got to l
4 be leak tight and so forth.
You just keep mish-mashing from 5
floor to floor a: o vivoring over.
l 6
Their disigns seem to be much cleaner, but they're 7
staring out with a clean piece of paper and I'm not sure you 8
did.
I think you were trying to use the Japanese nuclear 9
steam supply island.
10 MR. MAXWELLt That's correct.
11 MR. MICHELSON t So, they don't worry about the 12' same things we do, so they've got -- now, to patch that
( f 13 island up for US consumption, you've got to do this extra i
v 14 complication.
I guess it's all right, but it's just going 15 to be looked at very carefullf to make sure it's all right.
16 That's the price you pay for not being able to start with a 17 clean' piece of paper.
l l
18 MR. CATTON:
It's bailing wire; isn't it?
19 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, we thought we were getting 20 out of that with standard plans.
We were going to start out 21 doing it right to begin with.
22 MR. CATTON:
This is jury-rigged into a standard.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
That's right, it's into somebody rw 24 else's standard or somebody else's design.
7 don't know if
'%.)
25 it's the standard in Japan or not.
99 1
MR. CARROLL:
A lot of things held together with ps
)
K>
2 baling wire work quite well.
3 MR. CATTON:
Some of my older cars did that, but I 4
gave that up.
5 MR. EHLEl'T:
It may very well be that you get to a 6
tradeoff between site and volume of the building versus how 7
many jigs and jags 1: the walls you've got to do, too.
It's 8
not clear that you would -- looking at a cost / benefit thing 9
-- you would come out with a perfectly clean building.
i 10 MR. MICHELSON:
In the early days, people used to 11 think it was important to conserve building costs.
I'e 12 turned out that was the least of your worries.
Building o
f 13 costs just isn't, that's not what's making nuclear power y).
14 expensive.
It's all these hypothetical accidents that you 15 can't take care of because you crowded everything up too 16 tight.
i i
17 MR. EHLERT:
Certainly that's one aspect of the 18 Japanese design where they do put a premium on space, just 19 because of land.
n i.
20 MR. CARROLL:
Well, also, a compact building is 21 better from the seismic point of view.
22 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
So they had their reasons-j
_ gs 24-for doing it their way and you try to fix it as best you can i
25 here.
I i
I
100 1
I realize that you were kind of boxed in a little 2
bit before fou got started.
3 MR. MAXWELL Okay.
Then, outside of the 4
secondary containment, of course, are now new areas.
And 5
they have different HVAC systems, and it's not part of the 6
7 Showing up then, we have again at the top of the 8
drawing, the blue area, we have the Division 1, the 9
electrical equipment area, emergency electrical equipment.
10 And the 6.9 KV switchgear, 480-volt switchgear, 11 and the safety-related 480-volt actor control centers are in 12 this room.
s
(
i 13 And then sitting right above the Division 1 area
%)
14 below, for the next two floors, so the cabling from this 15 room down to the areas below would be risers going down into
- 16 the pump rooms and corridors below.
17 This blue area has its own safety-related HVAc l
18 system, which it shares with other Division 1 rooms above, l
19 which have emergency electrical equipment and diesel 20 generator control equipment.
We'll see that as we go up to 21 the next level.
22 Along the sides of the building here are lined up 23 the reactor internal pump, ASDs, and power supplies.
Five 24 of them on each side of the building.
s 25 The reason the right-hand side of the building w
101 I
here over along the Row 7 is Division 3, red, is that the
)
\\'
2 Division 3 motor control center switchgear room is down here 3
in vae lower right corner, directly above the Division 3 4
areas below, and the cables that do go to the control 5
building come out and go down this area where the red pump 6
power supplies are to go to the control building.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
In the red area, in the very upper 8
right-hand corner, there's a couple of, there's some motor 9
control centers.
Do you know roughly what they're going to 10 control?
11 MR. MAXWELL:
They're non-safety-related motor 12 control centers.
They pick up some of the non-safety-I f 13 related power for the RIPS and for other, there may be some 14 lighting on them.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
What bothers me, and this is one 16 of the places where I think we've got a pinch point, L:
17 directly above that area in the upper right-hand corner is 0
18 the opposite division's diesel engines.
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
i 20 MR. MICHELSON:
The blue diesel engine is directly 21 above that red area.
And of all the kinds of things you L
22 worry about in a diesel compartment, that floor is going to l=
L 23 be a very good floor.
It's really going to isolate the 1
-w 24 opposite division, directly underneath it.
7d 25 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
102 1
MR. MICHELSON!
And that's an area which you can (K-)
2 be assured will be looked at very carefully, because we've 3
already had experiences with fuel oil on floors of diesel 4
compartments, and so forth.
5 MR. CARROLLt let's see.
On 3-A we also introduce 6
a new, two new elevators and two new stairwells, don't we?
7 MR. MAXWELL That's correct.
These are outsido i
0 in the non-secondary containment area.
9 MR. CARROLL:
And let's see.
Do they stay yellow i
10 and red all the way up?
11 MR. MAXWELL:
No.
When they get up to the --
12 MR. CARROLL Oh, they don't?
()
13 MR. MAXWELL:
-- top floors, and we'll have to j
14 look and see why they --
15 MR. CARROLL:
At 5-A --
16 MR. MAXWELL
-- they're turning green.
17 MR. CARROLL:
At 5-A the red-one turns blue.
18 MR. WILKINS:
At 4-A the red one turns white.
'19 MR. CARROLL Well, it's in a red area.
20 MR. MAXWELL They have to have fire barrier 1
21 walls.
22 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
So that was my question.
23 They're missing fire barrier walls.
f--
24 MR. MAXWELL Any other questions on this x
25 elevation?
103 1
MR. MICHELSON:
Now, as we move electrical cabling
/
T
's l
2 from one floor to another, and so forth, is it going to be 3
in dedicated chases, or out in the open areas, just going 4
through floor penetrations?
5 MR. MAXWELL It'll be in risers, going through 6
the floor.
There will not be an electrical chase as such.
7 MR. MICHELSONt You won't have a dedicated chase 8
for each division taking the wiring from floor to floor, and 9
so forth.
10 MR. MAXWELL:
No. It'll just be risers, that will 11 be covered --
12 MR. MICHELSON:
I mean, floor penetrations, then, l v(
13 have to be again romething one looks at carefully, i
14 particularly if it's a watertight floor, also.
15' MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
And the conventional ones that 17 we've been using in the past have not necessarily been l
18 watertight, that flamastic and all that kind of stuff 19 doesn't like water on it very long, I don't believe.
Not in 20 terms of three hours.
21' MR. MAXWELLt Our approach to that is to curb the 22 penetration with a six-inch curb, so that water collecting 23' on the floor does not --
24 MR. MICHELSON:
And then you'll be assured a drain
/s V
25 system that keeps any credible break from getting more than l
i l
104 1
six inches of water on the floor or any firefighting from 1
7 w-2 getting more than that amount.
3 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Six-inch curbs on the stairwells, 5
tooi 6
MR. MAXWELL The doors there are 300 millimeters.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
You mean they don't leak?
8 MR. MAXWELL:
No, there's a curb.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, 300 millimeter curb.
10 MR. MAXWELL Yes.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
12 MR. CARROLL:
So that's --
()
13 MR. MICHELSON:
30 centimeters.
And that's --
14 MR. CARROLL:
Six inches.
e 15 MR. MICHELSON:
It's a neck-breaker, all right.
16 The approach now is to take care of water that 17 way, take care of pressure buildup by qualifying the 18 penetrations for whatever pressure, if any, builds up in the 19 room, and take care of fire by rating it for three hours.
20 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
The initial approach is to 21 prevent buildup of pressure in the room.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
That would either have to be 23 shown to be highly reliable or you'd have to provide some 24 alternate.
The English were never able to satisfy s
25 themselves they could really vent the room for sure, other i
105 1
than with chimneys.
They had smoke removal, too, but they
_(h
'( /
2 couldn't count on that.
3 MR. CARROLL:
Now thic curb you're putting around 4
a floor penetration area, what prevents a jet of water from i
5 a broken line or whatever from filling it up?
6 MR. MICHELSON:
Or blowing out the penetration, 7
except for the concrete, yes.
j 8
MR. CARROLL:
The water running down --
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, from a break up higher.
10 MR. MAXWELL:
The tray is covered.
4 11 MR. MICHELSON:
That's all the better.
It makes a 12 great water conduit, then.
It just fills up with water
(
)
13 inside and it can't relieve itself.
So it's got several
'A/
s 14 feet of head on it and it blows itself through the floor, if 15 the ducting surround the cable tree is stronger than the 16 penetration.
17 MR. MAXWELL:
Assuming the water that's inside the 18
. tray --
19 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
And it got inside, unless 20 you're sure it's watertight everywhere.
I'm going to bust a i.
21 pipe up the ceiling, in an open tray, and it's going to get 22 on down.
You read the LERs.
You know how water gets 23
- around, 24 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
Any other questions on this g~y U
25 one?
I i
106 1
MR. CARROLL:
That was sort of a reluctant
,l
\\
'/
2 question about questions.
3
[ Slide.]
4 MR. MAXWELL:
This is 3B.
This is more or less 5
mezzanine area again of the one we just looked at.
6 Again there is nothing really different about 7
this.
8 MR. CARROLL:
I see something new.
What's the 9
full space, is it?
10 MR. MAXWELL:
Pipe space.
11 MR. CARROLL:
Pipe space.
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
That's some pipes coming down l
r~m 13 and I'm not -- I can't tell you what those are.
(L) 14 MR. CARROLL:
It is something unique to the yellow 15 division, eh?
16 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, presently we are showing it as 17 non-divisional.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Showing yellow --
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Six o' clock in 3B.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
Excuse me.
I was looking at the 21 pipe space over here on 3A, which is yellow.
I thought that 22 was the one you might be thinking about as well.
23 I assume that is only for yellow pipes.
24 MR. CARROLL:
Where is that now?
7-~g
(_s/
i 25 MR. MICHELSON:
It's over at about 225 degrees.
N l
107 1
It's a pipe space there, right against the containment.
I
,_s
/
\\
i 2
assume that's just yellow division pipe penetration.
3 MR. EHLERT:
Those are ECCS piping coming up to 4
their penetrations.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Somewhere there might be one for 6
the blue.
7 MR. EHLERT:
Yes, there should be three divisions' 8
wort'..
9 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't find the blue one but 10 maybe it's on a different --
11 MR. WILKINS:
No, it's there. It's on line R, seo l
12 just to the left of R6.
/^r
(
)
13 MR. CARROLL:
Your pipe space disappears on 4A.
It does.
I can't give you a 15 straight answer on what that is.
I think I know what it is 16 but I just as soon not give it to you and it'll be a 17 conforming --
l-18 MR. MICHELSON:
It's got a fire wall around it.
l l
19 MR. CARROLL Yes, it does.
That's what caught my 20 attention.
21 MR. MAXWELL:
There are no pipes in_our electrical 22 equipment rooms.
23 (Slide.)
l g-24 MR. MAXWELL:
Going on to the next floor, this
(_/
25 floor now is where the character of the building really
108 1
changes is the way I perceive it anyway.
2 We are now at the grcund elevation and we ce, as 1
3 Mr. Michelson pointed out, tre see the diesel generators 4
showing up out in the divirion 1, 3 and 2 corners of the 5
building.
6 We also have the equipment hatch coming in from 7
the outside for the trucks to bring the equipment into the r
8 building, the main access for big equipment coming into the 9
building.
y 10 MR. CARROLL Where is that?
11 MR. MAXWELLt That is down in the lower --
m 12 MR. CARROLL Okay, okay.
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Again, it is not labelled as such, 14 but that's what it is -- it's reactor building entryway.
15 Basically the building below this elevation has 16
- been, a major portion of it has been the emergency core
~17 cooling systems.
That's now switching over to other types 18 of systems, 19 You also at this elevation have containment m
20 penetrations, electrical penetrations showing up and the 21-division 2 are in this qcsdrant from 180 to 270.
Division 3 22 is in the quadrant from 90 to 180.
They actually are down 23 here at about 135, around the 180.
The division 1 are up here in the-zero to 90 quadrant.
9 24 25 Also on this floor is where the piping
f f
109 1
penetrations are and you see the valve rooms showing up, the 1
Kl 2
division 1 valve room, division 3 valve room, and a division 3
2 valve room.
4 The piping has come up from the basement, the 5
bottom floor, up through the pipe chases that you are 6
looking at, up into this area, the isolation valves are here 7
and then they go through penetrations into containment.
8 The diesel generator rooms themselves have their 9
individual HVAC systems.
For normal shutdown they are r
10 cooled by the same system that cooled the electrical
-11 equipment rooms below on a division by division basis but 12 during operation of the diesel, the room cooling system r~
l
( }x 13 comes on and pulls in large quantities of outside are and s
l 14 exhausts them for each room in three separate divisions.
15 MR. CARROLL:
Are these radiator cooled diesels?
16 MR. MAXWELL:
They are cooled --
17 MR. CARROLL:
So it is just room heat that you are 18 taking out.
19 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
Their ducted input 20 for. combustion air to the engines.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
The only way to get from the 22 control building into the reactor building appears to be at l
l 23 this elevation, is that correct?
rx -
24 MR. EHLERT:
Clean access is on this floor and on r
~
25 floor -- would it be sheet 3A is where the controlled access l
110 1
is for the entry secondary containment.
,/ 3
's-2 MR. MICHELSON:
Was there any entryway shown on 3
3A?
4 MR. EHLERT:
No, excuse me. You come in on 3A for 5
the clean access.
G It's the other way around.
7 On 4A is the secondary containment access.
8 MR. CARROLL:
Where is the control building again?
9 MR. EHLERT:
To the north.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
At zero degrees.
11 MR. CARROLL:
So the steam lines are going under l
12 the control building.
I) 13 MR. MICHELSON:
Over.
'm 14 MR. EL-ZEFTAWY:
Over.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Now eventually we'll get some 16 comparable drawings to the control building showing where 17 the fire zones are and they would be, I assume, to be 18 isolated in the same way as this.
19 MR. MAXWE'. '
If we get through it this afternoon 20 we have a set right..ere for you.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, we.will get to it all right.
22 MR. CARROLL:
What is the area at R1, up in the
- \\
23 left there, that's white?
What is a PASS rack room?
Stack 24 9 rack.
gs
~
25 MR. EHLERT:
That's for all monitoring in the 1
i i
r-111 1
plant stack the main vent.
It is their radiation monitors
(
s_/.
2 for~ monitoring the plant exhaust.
3 MR. CARROLL:
What is PASS?
Post Access Sampling?
4 MR. EHLERT:
Yt:s.
5 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, that is Post Access Sampling.
6 MR. MICHEISON:
Now in going from the reactor 7.
building to the control building, those doors are not shown 8'
as being fire doors.
i 9-Are they really fire doors?
'10 MR'. MAXWELL:
Yes, they are fire doors.
11 1 '
MR.. MICHELSON:
Okay.
If I read this correctly,
'12 they are not shown that way.
Is that --
V [J\\
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Because there is not the black on
.14 the wall.
If the wall was black, then --
115' MR. MICHELSON:
But they will be fire doors?
16 MR. MAXWELL: 'They will be.
The wall will be
> 17 -
blackened in.
Yes.
18 MR. CARROLL:
You are talking about two doors on 19' the north. side of this?
'20 MR. EHLERT:
In 4A, yes.
121 >
MR. MICHELSON:
In the lower elevation, where we 22 also.have similar doorways, if we should again experience a
{
.23 pressure buildup.from, say, an RCIC failure, that doorway to 24 the control building will be able to withstand whatever
,s
' !,) '
25, pressure you calculate will build up in that RCIC area?
1 m
f 112 1
MR.-EHLERT:
Those' doors in those areas do not D
1 n /-
2 have any connection, HVAC-wise or anywhere else, with the s-3-
4 MR. MICHELSON:
But they go into the control 5
building.
6 MR. EHLERT:
Which floor now?
7 MR. MICHELSON:
On 3A.
8 MR. EHLERT:
No.
The doors on 3A enter the 9
electrical equipment areas, which is outside of secondary 10 containment.
l t
-11,
. MR. MICHELSON:
But they enter the control l'
L 12 building.
\\'./)
'13
.MR. EHLERT:
Correct.
~14 EMR. MICHELSON:
Now, if steam gets into that 15.
portion of the. control building, can it do any damage?
16 That's what pressure buildup is being caused by, and we-want 1
p 17' to make sure --:
18' MR. EHLERT:
I don't understand how you could
,i 1
19 pressure buildup in that part of the reactor building.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
If you rupture the steam line to 1
21 the RCIC turbine in the basement --
- 22 MR. EHLERT:
It would be also inside the secondary 23 containment, and-those doors enter into areas outside of 3
25 MR. MICHELSON:
But the doors have got to be
113 1
strong enough so they don't blow out while you're venting
(- N -)
-2 whatever you're trying to vent, which presumably part of 3
recondary containment.
4 MR. WILKINS:
I think what he's saying is the 5
steam has somehow got to net out of the secondary --
6 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
You've got to cross the 7
secondary containment boundary, s
8 MR; WILKINS:
And then, before it gets to the --
.9 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
Right.
And that's above grade, 10 up at the.HVAC duct.
11-MR. CARROLL:
This is the teid.ertight door the 12 maintenance guys have got propped open.
,y I
.ol Q(
4 13' MR. EHLERT:
That's on floor 4A.
If you want to L.
14
' talk.about-the doors on 4A, then those, yes, would be 115:
designed.for the pressure.
16; MR. MICHELSON:
I really want to talk about the 17 floor:with the RCIC turbine, and'then up at the next 18~
elevation, I think, is where you've located the' doors to the
-19 control room.
l 20.
MR. EHLERT:
For the RCIC people to:do i
21
- maintenance, they would come in on elevation-4A and take the 22-
. elevator down to the basement.
1 23-MR. MICHELSON:
But aren't there any doors between
. f-~s 24 the control building and the reactor building at that Q'
25
' location?
p L
1
L 114 1-MR. EHLERT:
No.
L 1
t~
\\-
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Figure 3A shows doors.
3 MR. EHLERT:
Those go into areas outside of 4
You cannot get to the RCIC from that 5
area.
That's closed access.
There's no doors.
6 MR MICHELSON:
Therefore, there's also a L*
7 pressure-tight membrane between there and RCIC.
8 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
It's designed to handle the 9
secondary containment accident pressures.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
If something -- it's 11 actually the blue division that's got RCIC in it.
If there i
11 2 are words that say that that pressure buildup cannot get L ()
13 into the area where the door is, fine, but the door is 14_
_there, and_there's nothing saying that it isn't a common a lL5
' ventilation, because I thought it ;was.
I-thought it was
- 16i ventilated with a common duct.
j 4
m' 17 MR. EHLERT:
Inside secondary containment.
' ~18 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
19 MR. EHLERT:
That electrical room on the --
o l
20-MR. MICHELSON:
That. doorway is also in that blue 1
121 area inside that secondary containmtat.
L22 MR. EHLERT:
That room with those electrical l'
'23=
equipment racks is part of the essential electrical HVAC l':
ge s 24 system, which is outside of secondary containment.
-(
25 MR. MICHELSON:
And there is no common L
l
115 1
ventilatilon.
)
N/
2 MR. EHLERT:
That is an essential HVAC system that 3
is separate-from the secondary containment HVAC.
'4 '
MR. MICHELSON:
And there is no ability to 5
pressurize the other part of the blue area and get into 6
there.
7 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
It would have to knock the 8
concrete wall down.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
No, not knock concrete walls, just 10 blow a penetration.. They blow much easier.
y 11 MR. WILKINS:' Where is the control building again?
m 12' I guess I got confused.
'(
)
13 MR. MICHELSON:
North.
,, w1 -
14 MR. EHLERT:
Zero degree, north.
15 MR. WILKINS:
How far north?
They're flush?
16 MR. EHLERT:- Not flush.
There is about a 2-meter 17 gap.
18.
MR. WILKINS:
That's longer.than I can step.
i 19 MR.~EHLERT:
Right.
20 MR. WILKINS:' There's a corridor then.
21.
MR. EHLERT:' There's a small corridor,, access-way6 22 connecting the two-buildings.
/
23 MR. CARROLL:
Now, north is top.
24 MR. EHLERT:
Right.
North is the top of the page.
g
)
25
~MR.
CARROLL:
What's the arrow up there that says
4 116 1
"PN" mean?
fy
)
Am/
2 MR. EHLERT:
That's the plant north.
We orient 3
this to Japan.
I 4
MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
I thought ~I understood.
5 So, the steam and feedwater lines go over the top 6
of the control building.
7 MR..EHLERT:
Yes.
8 MR. CARROLL:
So, I break one of these.
9 MR. EHLERT:
It's in a steam tunnel with 2-meter-10
-thick walls, top, bottom, and sides, and vents into the 11 turbine hall, and the -- basically, we're looking at a 9
112 pressure buildup in the tunnel from the break, but l
i
)
13 eventually it will vent into the turbine hall and out, i
la'I% /
14
-MR. WILKINS:
You call it a tunnel, but it's above 15 the control building.
16 MR. EHLERT:
It's not really a tunnel.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
It's not open-air.
18 MR. EHLERT:
No.
19 MR. MICHELSON: ' It's very large, I hope, l'-
i 20 MR. EHLERT:
It is pretty large.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Two meters of concrete is nothing 22 when you talk about the kino or pressures that build up V
23 rapidly from a double-ended rupture of a steam line.
You've g, 3 got to have a good, big vent.
24
- 2 25 MR. CARROLL:
We're not going to fill a control 2
117-1 room with steam then.
/ r).
L (_)
2 MR. EHLERT:
Our analysis says-it won't happen.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
Are you willing to assume any type 4
of pipe in that area, or have you got some kind of leak 5
before break?
i 6
MR. EHLERT:
We've got leak before break, so we're 7
monitoring the leakage.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, you have to read all the fine i
H:
9 structure about the rules you use on leak before break, n
10 because under certain circumstances, it may not apply.
11 I guess we're on that diesel floor, aren't we?
-12 MR. CARROLL:-
Before we leave steam lines, I would 13
-- for the guys doing those calculations, I think it would
).
'14 be well for them to get the California.Public Utilities 15-Commission report and the Southern Cal Edison report at what li6 happenUd at Mojave to make them'more conscientious.
Is that a GE plant?
l; l
18 MR. CARROLL:
It's a fossil plant where they 19 killed eight guys, a steam line break'that. jetted into the 20 lunchroom next to the containment.'
t 0
21 MR. WILKINS:
Wasn't'there something like that out l
2'2 in.the' Gulf?:
23 MR. MICHELSON:
The Iwo Jima?
Ten people killed.
l{
24
[ Slide.)
$(
25 MR. MAXWELL:
We're back at the ground floor of
- L
\\
118 l'
the building.
\\- ^
2.
MR. MICHELSON:
How, refresh my memory as to-why 3
the red areas shown cross-hatched through that one part i
'l 4
there -- what's unique in that area?
5 MR WILKINS:
That means it is above an area that 6
has a.different color.
J7 MR. MAXWELL:
There's something that's division 3 1
8 that's in that area.
9
-MR. MICHELSON:
But is it part of the red
'10 environmentally?
Is that right?
11
.MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
3 12 MR. MICHELSON:
And fire-wise,' it's a part of the J
13-red area.-
1 14 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
15 MR. MICHELSON:.But there is some kind of non-1 16
. safety-related equipment located in-that area, either in-L 17 that. pipe chase or some darn thing.
l 4
18' tm. MAXWELL:
It's primarily non-safety-related 19 area.-
20-MR. MICHELSON:
Now, again, of course, it's got an I
jr
=21 elevator, and I assume that elevator is really going to have.
p.
L 22 a fire' door on it.
l 23 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
L ;
24' MR. MICHELSON:
It goes on up to the blue area L
=
25 before long,'as you go up in the building.
1 l'
119 1
MR. MAXWELL:
Secondary containment boundary here I.,__f
'\\
/
2 is the fire-barrier wall. -Actually, there is a duct chase 3
here that comes out at the division 1, the generator room, 4
and runs down the building, the wall for the division 1 5
diesel' generator, then down through this stairwell opening, 6
-and around the division 3 diesel generator, outside of 7
secondary containment, and a similar wall comes down, 8
secondary containment, on the left side, on the division 2 9
side, and areas outside of secondary containment have a l:
10 different HVAC system or systems than inside secondary.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, which part is.outside of 12 secondary, the white part then?
i ), 13 MR. MAXWELL:
Anything on the -- between columns v
14 R1 and R2, anything to the left of the black line coming l
l 15 down-the-fire-barrier wall, coming the full width of the 16 plant there.-
So, anything off to the'left is outside of 17 secondary containment.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
That's outside of. secondary
~
19 containment, but certainly it's still subject to possible 20 fire hazards or whatever, I assume.
21 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
What do you do relative to fires 23 in that area as to how they may propagate and what effects
-24 they may have?
gg 25 MR. MAXWELL:
Again, they have fire barrier walls I
3; 120
'1 around them.
7
\\-
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, as I go up through the
~
3' building though to the next higher elevation -- oh, I see, j
4 there is a cross hatch there indicating that some of that 5,
floor is going to have to be qualified.
6-MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
'7 MR. MICHELSON:
You move the walls over a little 8
bit.
9 MR. MAXWELL:
Then you have to cross hatch some of i
^
10 the' floor.
'I 11' MR. MICHELSON:
This is a wild structure, isn't i
' t?
i 12
)
13 MR. CARROLL What's a PP-Door leading into a u)
- 14
-diesel vault trom the outside?
What's PP stand for?
i 15'
- MR. MICHELSON:
The big one and the little one, 16 On ColumnLCC.' If you go down fucther, there's_another one, j
I 17 MR. EHLERT:
They are for the equipment access i
18
.during diesel maintenance.
They're normally locked and 1
n L19 ~
sealed closed.
' 20
'MR.
CARROLL:
I guess'what I was really leading up 21 to though is; you know, you can have a. hell of an explosion 22-in a diesel room.
Are those specifically designed as 23 blowout panels so you don't do damage all. square?
1
.gs_
. 24' MR. EHLERT:
Yes, they're mostly just designed to a
(
)'
o
~'
25-prevent entry of unauthorized personnel.
]
r 121 1
MR. MICHELSON:
Where will I read about the
.fN ;
\\s l '
2 hazards associated with the diesel compartment and how you 3
analyze things such as pressure buildup during various kinds 4
of events?
They're not in the fire hazard study at all.
p 5-Where do I read about those kinds of events such as an 6
explosion'in the diesel compartment and whether the walls l
l 7
will take the penetrations or whatevor?
8 How can I be comfortable that I won't blow the 9
walls down or the penetrations out?
10 MR. CARROLL:
Is this the same level as the 11 control room?
12
)U1. MICHELSON:
I think it's a little different.
1 1
13 MR. MAXWELL:
This is higher.
MJ
'14 MR. MICHELSON:
It's a little higher up in the
- 15 control building..
16 MR. CARROLL:
What' in the control building behind i
17 the blue diesel vault on the north side?
Is that roof L
i 18 level?
19
=MR._ MAXWELL:' ENo, there's one floor, HVAC that's 201 at this elevation.
L 21-MR. EHLERT:
There's the-divisional.HVAC,--the blue
'22' divisional HVAC inlthe control building.
l 2's MR. CARROLL:-
So,- if I blow that end wall out, I
- 24 haven't probably done any damage to the control room?
25 MR. EHLERT:
The control room, no, but you --
I L
i:
122 3
MR. MICHELSON:
It looks like you're right in the
- Cg -
1 S /'
2 battery rooms.
If this out of the SAR is correct, which is 3
the elevation of the control building relative to the steam 4
lines and if they are where they show they are here, then j
y
'S directly below that is the wall common --
1 l
l 6.
MR. EHLERT:
You're going to be getting a new set j
i i
7 of drawings on the control room shortly.
i 8
MR. MICHELSON :
I don't believe these?
1 i
9-MR. EHLERT:. The elevations are close, but there
(
10 have been some changes.-
We had to shift some of the r
11 equipment around.
e 12 MR. MICHELSON:
I kind-of wondered because there i
[f D 13 are a lot of other things that look funny on them.
.Okay, MI l4 14 we'll have to find thet out at the end of the day, I guess.
<1
- 15 You said you had some drawings?
' 16 MR; EHLERT:
Yes, that's the next step when we get i
-17 done with the reactor building.
. !!, "i y
18 MR.. MICHELSON:
Okay..
'.g.
19 MR. WILKINS:
Did you ever get'an answer to your 120' question about what happens if you. blow out the walls?
j 21 MR. EHLERT:
We don't right now have the report on u
. expl osions. : Each division'has its own integral' fire 23 suppressant system.
24-MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, but that's just not the i=l l
t 25 answer that we need.
p
7 I
123 1
-MR.
CATTON:
Ars the walls designed to contain the I
I L/
2-explosion?
3 MR. EHLERT:
No, most of the doors are basically l
4 the drop down, almost garage type.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
How about the fire door betwee::
+
6 the red and blue division?
Is that going to withstand the 7
effects of'an explosion in the blue division, or is it going 8
to propagate right into the red division?
9 MR. MAXWELL:
It's going to have to.
10 MR.. i'CHELSON:
It depends on what kind of a door 11 you usa, of course.
You could use a bulkhead door latched t
'12 down with.a good strong wall and it might take it.
That's L (~ )
13_
what you'll be telling us.
t gj 14 We',re just.saying that they have to tell us how to 15 handle explosion, that's all,-unless you prove it
'ncredible.
The same is true of any penetrations of the i
16 t i diesel'campartment that might get into another division.
17-
.18; MR.- MAXWELL:
Are there any more questions or 19 commentsLon this floor here?'
_20 101.- MICHELSON:
Are there any credible missiles 21-from the diesel generator complex?
You know, crankcases?
02 2 I've heard of a' couple of diesel engine failures where parts l
-23 went flying around the room.
Are any of those-credible 24 missiles in terms of the penetrations or the walls?
- O 25 MR. EHLERT
I wouldn't think so, because at least L
1
l-124 1
on the external walls, they're holding out the telephone 2-poles and whatever for the tornado.
That's incredible.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
That part should be all right.
I 4
was thinking more of the internal walls or these floor 5
penetrations, if any, that you might have.
6 MR. EHLERT:
I would think that the penetrations 7
would be too small for any of the major components to come 8
through.
9-MR. MICHELSON:
I don't worry about the component
.10 coming through.. I just_ worry ataut it damaging the
.11-penetration such that it no longer keeps fuel oil from going 12 down to the floor below or whatever; that's all.
[13 Fuel storage is above there somewhere.
What 14 happens in the' blue diesel engine compartment, if you lose 15 the penetrations in the floor, you're into the red f
- L16,
-compartment-below.
Now, you aren't into vital equipment 17.
necessarily yet, but you're, spreading fire and you start 18 talking about a new consideration.
!19 MR.-MAXWELL:
There should be no penetration of 20 the floor in the cross-hatched zone, because all that's 21 below it is Division 3 and there's no reason to go from 22
, Division 1.to Division 3.
23 If they want to get to the floor, it's to go to 24 the Division 1 and they should move over and put their 25 penetrations in the Division 1 area of the floor.
125 1
MR. MICHELSON:
There will be some kind of a
. -(y_q) 3' 2
criterion written that keeps them going in that direction?
3 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay, we'll look for it.
Why I
5 don't we take a break at this point.
6
[Brief recess.)
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Let's get started.
I think we're 8
at 5A now.
9 (Slide.)
1, 10 MR. MAXWELL:
That's what I have on the machine.
111 This floor'-- now we 're above the diesel generators,'and 12 you can see there's a -- this is the ventilation system for
=m()
13 the diesel engine room lthat shows up on this floor.
There 14 are a couple of fans'that take air in.
It actually comes in 1
L 15 from above down through the' fans.
It goes down into the 1
p 11 6 diesel room below and then comes back up the outside here l-17 and goes out through louvers through the side wall.
And 18 it's the 'same on all: three through the side walls.
j 19 And the compressors or the air storage tanks for 20 the diesels are shown up and then some.of the diesel control 21 panels are on this' elevation.
'22 MR. MICHELSON:
There's a door between the red and 23-the blue area up there.about the middle of your drawing at g) the 90 degree point.
24
.J 25 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
126 MR. MICHELSON:
It's shown on one side of the fire 3
2 wall as a new fire door but not on the other side.
Is that 3
really -- isn't that a fire door on the other side as well?
4 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, it is because the wall is a 5
fire barrier wall so that means the door has to be a fire v
6 door.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
So we know that's already-a 8
fire door without being labeled.
- !F MR. EHLERT:
Yeah, that's not the new one.
That 10 was an original Japanese designed fire door.
11 MR.1 MAXWELL:
And, see, the new fire door is in 12.
secondary containment -- the existing fire doors outside of 13 secondary containment.
14 MR. MICHELSON:. Now that's hard to tell frcm
,15 looking at this drawing, isn't it?
Or is that because --
116 MR. MAXWELL:- Yes, it is hard to tell because 17
' secondary containment boundary is not labeled as such.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
It's not clearly indicated this.
19 way.
Okay.-
'2 0 -
One of the puzzlements on.this drawing is this
,21
. fuel storage pool area, and I see some yellow and I see some
'22 red.
I don't: see any fire doors between red and yellow or 23.
fire walls or anything.
And if I go down below I see some 24 mishmash-of areas.
What is the philosophy in that area?
25 MR. MAXWELL:
Well first, there is a corridor that
127
'l goes across.
It's right at the "G" row of the building that
-2 goes across from the Division 2 over to the Division 3 area.
-3 And you noticed there is a new fire door added there.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
And that's a 5
corridor there.
,6 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Does that mean it's enclosed?
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, it's a tunnel, in effect, 9
through there just for personnel.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
11 MR. MAXWELL:
And, of course, the fuel storage 12 pool there is -- what? -- two meters of concrete backed up 13 with a steel liner and water.
So.that's -- we consider that 14 to be equivalent to a'three-hour fire wall.
15 MR. MICHELSON: :Well,.I was thinking more, though,-
16 in-terms of water releases and whatever and whether they get 17 into the opposite division by soaking down through the floor 18 and the floor's not indicated as being any kind of a barrier 19 floor and yet I can go from -- I guess there is a barrier 20 iloor there, yeah.
21 MR. WILKIN5:
Well, that corridor is one and a 22 half meters above the tunnel.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
No, I wasn't looking at the 24 corridor now.
I was looking at other areas there that --
~9.
?. 5 okay.
I guess it's all okay.
All right.
l
l c
128
'l It's hard to tell some of these witnout elevations
.e As /T 2=
as well.
Just hard to envision -- visualize.
3 MR. MAXWELL:
Actually, the bottom of that fuel 4
pool is -- what?
5 MR. WILKINS:
1.7 meters.
4 f
i y
6 MR. MAXWELL:
-- 1.7 meters above the floor on 7
either side of it.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Yeah, I don't think we're worried i
~
9 about fire in the pool, of course.
,x 10 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Any other questions on that i
11 elevation?
q 12 (No response.)
g y
~l ' h.
13 MR. MAXWELL:
-I'm going to skip SB.
d_
14 MR.. MICHELSON:
What'-- underneath the fuel pool
~
d 15 is.there-any kind of.a drain on that pool or anything of 16 that: sort?
Or any' drain piping or pumps or fuel pool i
u f' u -
,17 cooling equipment or -- I don't see;any --
l m n; E18 MR. EHLERT:
Not below.
Are there some below?
l.
1
'20 MR. EHLERT:
On tha floor?
21; MR. MICHELSON:
Or somewhere.
Somewhere under
- 4 22 there.
k L
23 MR. EHLERT:
There should be a penetration on the u
Lj g wall of the. pool for both the suction and a discharge for --
24 L
}
25 MR. MICHELSON:
For cooling the pool.
And on that
i 129 pool cooling piping and so forth and heat exchangers, where 1
2 are they?-
3 MR. MAXWELL:
They're in the upper left corner
-I 4
there, Column A to C in Rows 1 to 3.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
On that same floor?
6 MR. MAXWELL:- Yes.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
They're in the opposite i
8 side from.the fuel pool.
Okay.
So the piping must go --
Ji
'9 MR. WILKINS:
A long way.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
A long way, yeah.
Okay.
That's 11-how I missed it.
It's over on the other side.
Okay.
e l.
. 12 MR. CARROLL:
Just a point of interest, neither.
j If '\\l 113 the pumps nor the heat exchangers have any shielding between V
~ 14 them..If you've got to do maintenance on.a pump.or a heat exchanger and you've got a bunch of bad fuel in the pool, 15 16 you may have an exposure problem.-
G i
N1
- 17 HMR. MICHELSON:
Do they traditionally have a wall.
lI
. 18.
between them?
A shield wall?
s
\\
o t
19' MR. CARROLL:
I know of one boiling water reactor 4
lL 20 plant where I wished I'd had one.
Y c
~
l21 MR. MICHELSON:
So for the future you're saying l'
H2 2 -
they ought to be providing them.
23 MR. CARROLL:
Well, we're getting cleverer in l
f f,, ~
24 terms of portable temporary shielding, too.
That may be
' 2 5' just as good, I guess.
t
[
}
n a
'130 7_1 1
Just as a matter of interest, the Dutch have come I
2 up with a neat thing.
1 3
MR. EHLERT:. I think they are using portabAe 4
shielding, but I'm not quite sure exactly in what way and s
5 where.
i 6
MR. CARROLL:
They build up a big rack, Carl, of 7
PVC pipe and steel and then blow lead into it and then suck i
8 the lead out when they're done.
i 9
MR. WILKINS:
You have two different carcinogens 10 thcra..
i 11 MR. CARROLL:
That's a good way to do some 12
' shielding, in any event.
a j
'13' MR. CATTON:
Yeah, but the lead just affects your 14 mind.
15
.MR. CARROLL:
You wouldn't be working for a 16l l nuclear power plant if.you were of sound mind.
. 17 MR. MICHELSON:
All right.
Let's go on.
Okay,.
18 We're at 6A.
t i
19 (Slide.]
O 20-MR. MAXWELL:
Again, now, as you come up this t
. 21:
second containment, this fire barrier that's shown midway 22 into the building,-and at this point you'll notice all of 23--
-the second containment is cross-hatched red.
<g 24 MR. CATTON:
There's a little bit of yellow in the h
25 middle of the red on the other side -- on the left hand
l 131
.1~
side. -Is that an accident?
2 MR.' MAXWELL:
No.
3 MR. CATTON:
That is real?
4 MR. MAXWELL:
That's real.
If I may finish my I-5 statement, then I'll come to those.
6 But the reason this is all Division 3 is we have 7
this hatchway which is coming up from the floor of the 8
ground floor elevation, and it goes on up to the operating i
9 floor.
At the operating floor there is a ventilation cover 10 on it, but it's not rated for three hour and so this is on 11 the secondary containment and part of -- associated with the l
12
. Division 3 part of the' secondary containment HFAC system.
(g s,.J' 13-
-Now going to this bit of yellow that's over here, 11 4
-that's a. stand-by. gas treatment system.
It's sitting up in l
IL-15-this area that's a Division 3 area.
One pump and free 1~
c 16-
' filter-is Division 3.
The other fan and free filter'is L
17
' Division-2.
18L The standby gas' treatment is not' required to
'19 withstand the-single fire, in that you don't postulate a D20
- fire with a LOCA.
And this again_is one'of'the exceptions, 21 special cases; if2 you read them in the fire hazard analysis, 22' it will talk about that.
23,
MR. CARROLL:
And the same is true of the'SLC 24' pump?
'V -
25 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
132 j
1 Any questions?
,,)
2' MR. CARROLL:
I'm still thinking about the SLC 3
pump.
1 4
.MR. MAXWELL:
The standby liquid control is not a 5
redundant system.
It's single pipe.
It's redundant to --
6 MR. CARROLL:
One_ tank.
I guess that's okay.
7-MR. MICHELSON:
This is the elevation where the 8
fuel is stored for the diesel engines.
9 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes-The day tanks.
10 MR. HICHELSON:
You call those day tanks.
How 11 many days are you talking about?
How much fuel are you 12 storing.inside the building?
j.
i
)!
'13 MR. MAXWELL:
As I really, it's eight hours.-
^/
s 14 MR. MICHELSON:
This is an eight-hour capacity?
1.
15 Do the engines themselves have a small day tank underneath t
16 them?
17 MR. MAXWELL:
No, they do not.
4,
.18 MR. MICHELSON:
All the fuel comes directly from 19 this tank.,
20 MR., MAXWELL:
And it comes into this tank transfer 21-system from the buried tanks in the yard, the seven-day 22 tanks in the yard.
23 EMR. MICHELSON:
And the transfer pumps are on the e-c 24
'next higher elevation?-
1 2b MR. MAXWELL:
Well, the transfer pumps are in a 1
4 133 1
vault at the seven-day tanks.
p
\\s /
2 MR. MICHELSON:
They're in where?
3 MR. MAXWELL:
At_the seven-day tanks.
4 MR. CARROLL:
So the engine is fed by gravity?
5 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
Its fuel pump is 6
fed by gravity.
7 MR. CARROLL:
Now,.if I have something bad happen 8
to the blue day tank, and blow out the_ wall over the roof of 9
the control-room, where does that burning oil go?
10 MR. EHLERT:
The ceiling.
I should say the roof,
- 11 of the control building.
The control building is at a 12 lower elevation.
?l3 MR. CARROLL:
And there's no way for that oil to
'Q) l J 14 -
be drawn into,-that' fire to be drawn into the control room
~15 ventilation systems?
4 16l MR. EHLERT:
No.-
There's'two-divisional"
^
17-ventilation on either end of the control building.- So'if 18 the explosion happens in the. blue area, you essentially 19 switch over to ha control room HVAC on the other end of the 1
h 20' building, or-the N-11 exhaust._
21; MR.-MAXWELL:
The' intakes are also at a lower 22 elevation than this.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
That-makes it maybe bad.
It just L.
24 depends.
25 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Any further questions?
1 j
i 134
' 1' MR. MICHELSON:
Now, again, we show stairwells in
(~%
'N-
-2 that' blue area. -And now it's a red area-in this. drawing, up 3
in the right' hand corner.
4 Are those surrounded by firewalls?
5 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, they are.
i 6'
MR. MICHELSON:
They will be in future editions?
7-MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
i 9
MR. MAXWELL:
Fire barrier walls.
_l 10 MR. MICHELSON:
All right.
11-(Slide.)
i 1
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Going up another floor.
7-A.
-i I
,; i.j~\\),
13' Now, we've gotten up to the area where the supply i
y 8
114L fans and-air filters are for the DG and electrical equipment L15' areas.- This, for instance, the~ blue area here, this.is the i
1 16 HVAC. supply for the blue areas outside of secondary-l 117-fcontainment.
And there's an-air intake up here, filters,
(
u 18 and then the supply fans.
J
'O L19 The supply fans supply air to the various rooms,
'20=
and there's an exhaust that comes back from those rooms, and 3
i 21 Lit's a recirc. system with the controlled makeup, or l
L 22.
exhaustive atmosphere --
l
'23 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, where does that air go-to?
qa I'
h
.24 What kind of areas does it serve?
That's the air inlett is 7s.
25 that right?
2
4 135 1
MR. MAXWELL:
That's right.
And it comes through 2
the-filters there, in the air handling unit, the cooling or
=3 heating coils, and then it goes, these two fans, it goes 4
through those and'into a duct, and then it goes down, and it 5
goes down and supplies air to the blue areas below on the 6
floors below, and goes down as far as the electrical 7
equipment rooms.
8 MR. - MICHELSON:
Well, on my drawing it says that 9'
that's the diesel generator "A" supply fan that you pointed 10 to.
11 MR. MAXWELL:
That's what it says.
And the total 12 that it supplies is all of the blue area.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
- Okay, It's more than just diesel 14 generator "A," then --
15 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
It's the electrical division 16 "A."
' 17 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
- 18 MR. MAXWELL:
It should really be Division 1
. 19 reactor building cooling supply, is what it really should 20-be.
21 MR. MICHEIJON:
Now, what happens-if we gct an 1
22
. electrical fire up in that area; does that air move on and 23 smoke up the other areas that are getting their air intake 24 from that, or how do you stop it?
15 MR. MAXWELL:
The way we envision is, in a smoke l
l 136 1:
renoval mode, why we take suction out of the area, and --
a
-?
'2-MR. MICHELSON:
Out of which area?
'3 MR.-MAXWELL:
We switch over, and the exhaust, 4
instead of being recirculated, goes to the atmosphere.
And 5
so smoke that comes out of any room that's on that circuit t
i c
6 will be drawn into the discharge duct and mixed with the 7
cooler air coming in from the other rooms and discharged out~
l 8
of the building.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, is that true for the
-10 essential air circulation?
'(
11 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
L12 '
MR.. MICHELSON:
Now, is there also a nonessential' A-s
. i i
13-air circulation in these areas?
w u J.
+
14 MR.' MAXWELL:. No. -
4.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Just'the essential.
m-s Y
H1'6 MR. MAXWELL:
Just the essential.
'17 MR. CATTON:
Is-that done by suction through a fan O
18 or is it blown through?
- ji 19 MR. MAXWELL
Yes.
It's.by suction.
\\
20 MR. CATTON:
Aren't you a'little: worried that-a 21 maybe.some of the noxious gases will be combustible, when 22 you suck fresh air into it and then run it through the fan?
23 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, that's possible.
But when you 24' have a fire going, if you don't get complete combustion, the g 3, A_)
I
.25
. combustion products can be combustible and can ignite.
137 i
l' Temperatures get up.
Flashover is ignition of the non-ib-)-
2 combusted combustible gases that have collected.
And the 3
experience has been, it is best to take those things out of 4
the room, the combustion products as quickly as you can and 5
keep the, if you can get enough fresh' air coming in, you 6
keep the temperature of the air that's accumulating in the 7-top of the room to below the flashover point, and then you l
8 don't Epread'the fire.
1 9
MR. MICHELSON:
Aren't you using CO2, though, for 10 firefighting in the diesel compartment?
11 MR. MAXWELL:
In the diesel compartment we're 12 using AFFF foam.
m
- r3 l
t 13 MR. MICHELSON:
So you're shutting off tho L
l kJ l
11 4
-ventilation at least to that area.
c 4
15'
'MR. MAXWELL:
'No.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
With foam you wouldn't have to.
17 --
MR. MAXWELL:
No.
f 18 MR. COSTNER:
So the section in the SAR that 19 describes the CO2 is out'of date?
20' MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
21 MR.-MICHELSON:
I was thinking that it was CO2.
f f
22 MR. MAXWELL:
It was and we've changed over to
(-
23 AFFF.
s 24 MR. CARROLL:
AFFF meaning?
\\
25 MR. MAXWELL:
AFFF, aqueous film forming foam.
1
,b o d
l q
138 y
1-MR. MICHELSON:
That's your preferable mitigant to c(
'.' ^~/-
2 CO27-3-
MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, plus, it's the EPRI 4
requirement,.too.
6, l
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Does EPRI require that you not use t
lu 6
CO2?
7 MR. MAXWELL:
They require foam, yes.
b:
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Now the exhaust fans shown on
[4 T 9
elevation 23-500; is that exhausting by just drawing out of E
1:
.10 that area and thereby drawing air up through the ops.n grates
-11 and so forth, or is there a ducting system?
12 MR. MAXWELL:
There's a ducting system for it, j
UV be ';
- 13 MR. MICHELSON
It's actually drawing on the L A _/.
s
.,i,
[~
14L diesel compartment and drawing _on these other compartments; 7
1'
- 15 is that the idea through ducts?
p 1(i
' MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
It's not drawing on all L
L17 compartments'.
Right now, it's pulling out of'the -- well, s
- 18-indirectly, it is.-
It's taking it out of the return on the n
.hj
'19 reserve which is ducted to the compartments.
There may be f
120 some cases where there are compartments that arcLin-series
'l l -
where you introduce your supply air in one room and then 22
.there's a subroom and it goes.into that room and then goes 23 into the exhaust return duct.
gf S 24 MR. MICHELSON:
In view of the fact that you'need-
.b 25 to leave at 4:30, why don't you give us a very quick run 31-ci
t o.
139 l'
through of the rest of the slides.lo we can at least talk 7_
~-
2 about the control building a little bit since we haven't 3
seen it at all yet.
Apparently there are drawings that we 4
haven't seen.
5 MR. CARROLL:
Before you jump off of this one 6
though, I was a little concerned about the main steam 7
tunnel, HVAC, if I'm reading it right, and the stairway down 8
it.to it.
It looks like it could communicate into other 9
parts of the building, no?
10 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, that steam tunnel --
11 MR. CARROLL:
Up at the top, way up at the top.
12 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay, this floor is TMSL-27-200.
~,s I
(
)
13 This TMSL-2600, so this is a pit here and this stairway is
.%J 14 coming down --
15 MR. CARROLL:
Oh, into the --
16 MR. MAXWELL:
Into the pit.
17 MR. EHLERT:
The H\\AC is connected up then to the 18 steam tunnel.
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Then this HVAC has an opening l
20 through that floor or openings to the steam tunnel.
21 MR. CARROLL Okay, and you're not going to blow 22 that apart if you have a steam line break?
23 MR. EHLERT:
It probably will, but the question r~s 24 is; you don't need HVAC anymore in the steam tunnel.
25 MR. CATTON:
Where does the st(sem go?
l
. )
140 1
MR. MICHELSON:
Does the steam come up in these f
x-2 upper areas of the building and is that okay?
It's right in 3
that area shown in the drawing, elevation 27-200.
4 MR. WILKINSON:
Are there walls that separate that 5
from the white?
6 MR. MICHELSON:
No, I gather not.
7 MR. WILKINS:
Is that open?
i 8
MR. MICHELSON:
I gather it's open, but is that 9
true, or are those walls there?
10 MR. MAXWELL:
These are walls here, but --
11 MR. EHLERT:
There's one stairwell.
12 MR. MAXWELL:
There's a doorway through there and
[
')
13 I don't see a door on it.
%J 14 MR. MICHELSON:
Is there a wal3 between the 15 striped area and the white area?
16 MR. MAXWELL Yes.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
That's not clear from the drawing.
18 In fact, it's not drawn that way.
19 MR. EHLERT:
That stairwell goes up and enters in
.10 that -- I should say it's going down into 6-A below, the 21 stairwell'shown in the striped area in 6-A.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
23 (Slido.)
gm 24 MR. MAXWELL:
We will --
b/
25 MR. CATTON:
Did that answer the question?
~'
w w
~.
J 141 1
MR. EHLERT:
We will have to find out.
We don't f_ N
(_
2 really know the answer right here.
3 MR. MAXWELLt Now, we're up to the operating floor 4
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Once a suggestion is made, and I 6
still think it's a real good one, and that is, any standard 7
design ought -- there ought to be a requirement that there 8
be a 1/32nds model for it.
Then you could begin to 9
visualize all of this stuff and begin Ao see where we're at.
10 For a standard plant costing a half a billion 11 dollars in design effort, a model is a trivial expense.
12.
We'll just fumble around without it.
J' 13.
MR. WILKINS:
It has to have cutaways.
A model is really the only way you 15 really know and you learn a lot from the mistakes you make 16 on the model that get back properly onto the drawings then.
17 It's li's building a --
18 MR. CATTON:
We saw a really nice model in Germany 19 of one of their plants.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
There's no requirement to model 21 this thing.
Charlie and tried once to get a requirement in 22 that there be, but I don't think EPRI ever went along with 23 it, either.
24' MR. CATTON:
I guess you could rgue that your d,r3 25 visualization capabilities are good enough.
Some people's J
1 142 1
might be.
,/D')
4 j
2 MR. CARROLL They've got 3-D CAD systems, i
3 MR. MICHELSON:
I've seen all kinds of 4
visualization errors.
Go ahead.
1 5
MR. MAXWELL:
Okay, where we are now is at the 6
reactor operating floor.
We've finally running out of 1
7 Division 1 and 2 areas in the corner.
The Division 2 area 8
up here is because here's where the reactor building closed 9
cooling water system surgu tank is for the Divisicn 2.
10 There is still some of the Division 3 HVAC shown 11 up on this floor.
This floor is where I said there was a 12 hatch cover on that hatch.
This is the elevation where the i
13 hatch cover is.
14 Again, it's a ventilation cover that can be tipped 15 up to open it when they need to use the hatch.
This then, 16 the majority of this floor is secondary containment except, x
17-again, this wall down through here is a boundary and there's 18 a portion of the left top quadrant cut out as not in I
l.-
20 Are there any questions?
21
[No response.)
If you don't mind now, I'd like to 1-23 just move on into the control building.
1..lg 24 MR. MICHELSON:
Just for curiosity, why are the 25 colored drawings for the plant proprietary when the black
143 1
and white ones aren't?
What are you protecting here from 2
the critical viewpoint?
3 MR. KAXWELL:
Well, strictly speaking the black 4
and white onen probably should be proprietary also.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, yes, I guess some of them 6
are and some of them aren't.
The fire protection for some 7
reason was.
But not the --
8 MR. EHLERT:
The Hitachi drawings, or the Japanese 9
drawings a lot of times are the proprietary ones.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
I see.
And they happen to be 11 Japanese drawings.
But your drawings in Chapter 1 weren't 12 proprietary, as I recall.
I don't think I brought any with
()
13 me.
But I don't recall any proprietary.
And this is a 14 duplicate of the Chapter 1 drawings, except there may be a 15 little more information.
I just wondered why they have to 16 be proprietary.
37 MR. MAXWELL:
They are a slightly later Revision 18 2.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
But proprietary means there is 12 0 some kind of commercial interest that you are trying to 21 protect.
And what are you trying to protect?
22 MR. EHLERT:
Hitachi/Toshiba wanted them 23 proprietary.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
That's not necessarily a good 25 enough reason.
I think that we would ask for a non-i
144 I
proprietary version of this, then, and then we'll see what
(
)
's /
2 they try to remove.
I l
3 (Laughter.)
4 (Slide.)
I i
5 MR. MAXWELLt We have up now the basement floor of 6
the control building.
And this control building really has 7
several functions in it with the control complex being up on 8
about the fourth and fifth floors of the building.
9 These lower elevations are associated with the 1
1 10 reactor building closed cooling water system and then as we 3
11 go up, the divisional batteries and DC power supplies.
12 So on the basement floor, it's divided into three I) 13 divisions.
Going left to right, Division 1, or 2, 1,
and 3, i
%J L
14 reactor building closed cooling water heat exchangers.
l 15 Also, the pumps are down at this elevation.
i 16 MR. WILKINS:
Is there any corrolation between the l
17 colors on this set of drawings and the colors on the other 18 set?
19 MR. MAXWELL:
They're the same.
It's one to one.
23.
MR. WILKINS:
I was about to infer that, but I 21 thought I better ask.
22 MR. CARROLL:
Green means control room.
r 23 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
And there's a new color, l
24 green, which will show up this control room.
So you can see b,q3 I
25 what the control room, I call it the control room complex,
145 1
is.
(
't'
'\\ /
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, I'm a little puzzled.
I'm 3
trying to compare what's on the reactor building -- that's 4
elevation minus 8,200 and this is minus 13 -- this is a lot 5
lower.
6 MR. EHLERT:
The GE-based drawings are based on 7
the vessel tero, which is the inside surface of the bottom 8
head, which is the GE ctandard for all their drawings.
And 9
the Japanese documents are based on the Tokyo mean sea 10 level.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't know what corresponds 12 here.
i j
(
)
13 MR. EHLERT:
There's a 4.9 -- 4950 millimeter 14 difference.
15 MR. CARROLL:
What's that again?
16 MR. EHLERT:
There's a 4950 millimeter difference.
17 MR. CARROLL:
So if I subtract 4950 from the GE 18 number, --
{
19 MR. EHLERT:
You add 4950.
l 20 MR. WILKINS:
I'd prefer to add it to the Tokyo.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, I'd prefer not to I can't 22 do arithmetic too well.
Drawing 1-A, the reactor building, l
b 23 is it at the same elevation as Drawing 1-A?
l l
24 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
That is your correlation.
25 After that, they're different, because of floor heights.
l L
i l
j
l 146 1
MR. MICHELSON:
I'm looking at the exact same J
2 floor elevation.
l 3
MR. CARROLL:
You said the floors are slightly off 4
5 MR. EHLERT:
As you go up, they start shifting a 6
little bit.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
A lot or just a little bit?
O MR. EHLERT:
A couple meters, in some instances.
t 9.
MR. MICHELSON:
Well, that's not so bad.
i 10 MR. EHLERT But the main area that they match up i
11 is the top of the basement --
12 MR. MICHELSON Okay.
[G.
-- at the two buildings.
And at the l
j 14 steam lines.
15.
MR. MAXWELL:
And back at the ground grade on.
16 Sheet 5 they're within 150 millimeters of each other.
So 17 that's where you get a second almost lineup.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Pretty close, then.
19 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
All right.
21 Are.you going to supply new SAR drawings to 22 replace the --
23 MR. EHLERT:
Yes, they're going to be submitted, I 24 think.within a month.
y 7.
l 25 MR. MICHELSON:
But see, you didn't give us any b
=
147 1
elevations of this.
I wouldn't have asked the question if i
[
N U'
2 I'd had an elevation of the control building.
3 MR. EllLERT:
There's a whole complete set coming 4
in, probably within 30 days, at least tow--rds the staff.
5 And you'll eventually get it, I assume.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
All right.
Proceed.
7 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Any other questions on this 8
first elevation?
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, these are big pipes.
And I 10 think you said that they come out underneath the floor of 11 the next elevation in the reactor building?
Is that the way 12 they come out at the same, they come out in the same
(
13 compartment as shown in the'l-A?
I see the dotted lines 14 there, which I assume are the pipes.
And they'ro at some 15 elevation below the floor, the next higher floor of the 16 reactor building.
17 MR. MAXWELL:
Right.
That's correct.
18 MR. EllLERT:
If I remember right, I think they're 19 eight-inch lines.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
They'd be very large.
I'm 21 surprised that they're that small.
This is the whole 22 reactor building closed cooling water system.
Of course, 23 these are one-third, one-third, one-third.
So maybe they 24 are eight inches.
25 (Slide.)
1
148 1
MR. MAXWILL:
At this elevation, then, you see 2
coming in the service water piping for the three divisions.
3 Again, it's lined up 2, 1, and 3, and they're in 4
tunnels that drop off into the rooms of the like divisions 5
as they go across the control building.
6 MR. CARROLLt The circles are heat exchangers or 7
pumps?
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Heat exchangers.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Wb'sre are the pumps?
- 1. 0 MR. MAXWELL The pumps are the rectangles on the 11 floor below.
12 MR. CARROLL:
All right.
Now, suppose I break a 13 line someplace.
Can't I flood all three apartments' pumps?
14 MR. MAXWELL:
No, sir. The walls are water-tight.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
How about the doors though?
16 MR. MAXWELL:
The doors are water-tight.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
He didn't show them as water-tight 18 doors.
Maybe you will.
19 See, inside the reactor building you showed at 20 those elevations water-tight doors to confine the water.
21 MR. CARROLL These just look like swinging doors'.
22 MR. MAXWELL' The flood is being confined to this 23 inner. room and its walls and the door which is open to do e
24 maintenance is water-tight.
25 MR. MICHELSON:
Which door is water-tight?
i
1 i
149 1
MR. MAXWELL:
The door into each punip room from 1
(__'\\
\\
xJ 2
the corridor into the pump room.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
Those are not shown, I guess.
i 4
MR. MAXWELL:
Well, they are shown as that triple 5
line there in the middle.
There's a diagrammatic 6
representation of the door.
i 7
MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, I thought that was a removable
]
8 wall.
Okay.
9 MR. MAXWELL:
That's a door.
i 10 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
The doors shown there are 11 at the same elevation as the door into that compartment, 12 say, for B.
I) 13 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, but the piping is in this inner
.O L
14 room, the room where the heat exchangers and the pumps --
15 MR. MICHEISON:
But what keeps the water from 16 coming out now?
17 MR. MAXWELL:
That wall around that room.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
And that door?
19 MR. MAXWELL:
And that door are water-tight.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
And how high is that wall?
l-.-
21 MR. EHLERT:
It goes up to the next floor, i
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, it's all the way.
l 23 MR. EHLERT:
- Yes, r-24 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
Of course you have to k'
25 account for the pressure buildup, the hydrostatic head, if
n 150 1
you don't get that break isolated, and so on.
?,_,)
\\- /
2 Where does the water ultimately go to?
3 If you are 'way below ground it just keeps filling 4
the control building if you didn't stop it.
It will just 5
keep going.
It will get all the way up to the control room 6
unless ground -- because the control room is below ground 7
grade yet, isn't it?
8 MR. CARROLL:
The cortrol room is below grade?
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
It's below ground grade.
10 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
The water just keeps coming up 12 until it gets to the -- floods the control room and comes
,\\
).
13 out at the ground.
14 MR. CATTON:
You can see the yellow stairway over l
15 there.
16 MR. MAXWELL:
You obviously have to shut the pumps l
17
- off, e,
'18 MR. MICHELSON:
You've got to do something, yes, 19 but it depends on the elevation of the source of water that 1
L 20 the pumps are pumping from and I don't know where that is.
21-MR. MAXWELL:
As long as they keep pumping and you j
22 don't shut them down or down close a valve --
i l
23 MR. MICHELSON:
No, they don't need to pump if the l
3 24 source of the reservoir is above the control building, for l
L 25 instance.
If the grade of the reservoir, it's grade is the I
I 151 1
grade of the building it can flood the whole damn building
,y I\\ s) 2 up through the control room by hydrostatic head alone.
3 MR. MAXWELL:
I am saying if the system is that 4
way you have to be able to shut a valve.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
You have to have a couple of 6
valves to be sure --
7 MR. CARROLL:
I wouldn't rely on just one.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
No.
Not for something like that 9
-- but I don't know where the source is relative to the 1
10 control room.
I think that is one thing that you would want 12 to look at pretty close.
You said ground water is --
(
)
13 MR. EHLERT:
It is postulated to be two feet below 14 the surface.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
It's the control room that's i
16 below.
It's got to be a water-tight building.
17 HR. CARROLL:
They are going to find an awful lot 18 of that green pumpable grout before they are done.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
They'll stick pumps out of the 20 yard trying to keep the ground level down.
21 Why did you put the control room below grade?
22 MR. EHLERT:
Space.
The standard moves most of 23 the control room above the steam tunnel, 24 MR. MICHELSON:
The Japanese is above ground, f-s k
I I
25-above grade.
152 j
1 MR. EHLERT:
Yes, but it's off on the side in the C#
2 two unit, because of your configuration.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
So --
4 MR. EHLERT:
Well, they also wrap their turbines 5
around it so it's in a nice enclosed --
6 MR. MICHELSON:
But that's all right. It's above 7
ground.
It's above grade.
8 Here you are putting it below grade.
9 You will have to show how you assure that you 10 never flood that building out.
i 11 It's going to be interesting.
12 MR. WILKINS:
There is no nuclear safety issue 13 involved in flooding.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
Oh, yes, yes, there can be.
It i
15 depends on the scenario.
16 MR. WILKINS:
It depends on the timing of course.
17 MR.'MICHELSON:
Yes, it depends on a lot of l
18 things, what is happening over in the reactor building, what 19 has happened to the doorways between the control building 20 and the reactor building as this water builds up in the 21 control room -- a whole lot of things.
p 22 MR. CATTON:
Just the excitement associated with 23 the fact that it is flooding may lead you to do something.
l 24 MR. MICHELSON:
You are not going to design a
- g]
v.
25 plant whose control room can be flooded out except as a very
-)
153 1
rare event, but go ahead.
/
\\
( )'
2 Is your plane earlier than their plane?
3 MR. CATTON:
It's at National.
He's further away.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
National is easier.
It's faster.
^
5 MR. CATTON:
Not to California with the subway.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
That's about the right time 7
to leave then, if you want to be real comfortable.
8 Okay, that's something you'll certainly want to 9
look into, where the water goes to.
10 MR. CARROLL:
You are talking about a pretty good 11 flow of service water into those heaters.
12 MR. EHLERT:
There was a flood control analysis l
J-l
(
13 performed.
I've got to check to see exactly the assumptions 1
l 14 and what they ended up having.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
It's heavily dependent upon the 16 site relative to the. reservoir.
17 MR. CARROLL:
But this is how many feet below 1
l 18 grade?
19 MR. EHLERT:
The control room or the pumpa?
1 20 MR. CARROLL:
The pumps.
21 MR. EHLERT:
20 meters.
22 MR. CARROLL:
20 meters is like --
23 MR. MICHELSON:
60 feet.
1.
l 24 MR. CARROLL:
I don't know.
On an ocean site,
,g 25 high tide is maybe 12 feet below grade or something.
154 1
MR. MICHEISON:
Are the control rooms below grade, 2
too?
3 MR. CARROLL:
Oh, no.
Never heard of any but --
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
I never had either.
5 MR. CARROLL:
The control room is how many '.eet 6
below grade?
7 MR. EHLERT:
The ceiling of the control room is at 8
grade.
9 M't. WILKINS :
But the floor looks like it is about 10 4.4 meters.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
They are below grade 2.
Now the 12 batteries are also below grade.
That makes it even more
()
13 interesting.
14 MR. WILKINS t There are another 4.4 meters below.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Those are the vital batteries, I 16 would assume.
17 MR. CARROLL Have you ever talked to a 18 submariners about what happens to battery rooms when they 19 blow in salt water?
20 MR. MICHELSON:
You don't get power out them any 21 more, that's for sure.
22 MR. CARROLL:
Among other things.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Among other things.
Okay, enough
~24 of that one.
O 25 (Slide.)-
155 i
i '
l 1
MP.. MAXWELL We are up to the third floor now,
)
7-i 1
x/
2 and this where the batteries ara.
On this floor, again, we 3
are -- actually, we are four divisions, plus some non-4 divisional equipment.
5 Just taking Division 2, there is a Division 2 6
battery room and then a Division 2 electrical equipment 4
7 room.
This has got the battery chargers, the 8
uninterruptable AC power supply, 120 volt AC power supply, 9
and some motor control centers in this room.
This is the 10 elevation where the cables go between the control building 11 and the reactor building, also between the control building 12 and the turbine building.
()
13 The cables here that are primarily going between l
14 the control building and the reactor building are power 15 cables.
Because with the multiplex systems the signals that 16 are coming here are primarily on the fiber optic cables in 17 multiplex.
So, there has benn a tremendous reduction in the 18 amount of cables going between the control building and the 19 other buildings.
l 20 When we get up to the control room which is right 21 above here, again the primary cables, the largest quantity 22 of cables going up to the control room from here are the 1
23 power supply cables for the equipment located in the control g-K 24 room.
So, we go through the floor right into the control b
25 room.
156 1
MR. MICHELSON:
What will be the fire protection c
i k/
2 philosophy for these areas?
3 MR. MAXWELL:
They are separate fire zones and 4
divisional, and the protection will be portable 5
extinguishors and manual hoses.
The manual holders will be 6
located in the corridors external to the rooms.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
You are going to allow water hoses 8
in there, then?
9 MR. MAXWELLt Not in the room.
10 MR. MICHELSONt Well if they are out in the hall, 11 what prevents them from getting in there.
12 MR. MAXWELL Only during a fire.
l,-)i 13 MR. MICHELSON:
During a fire, you are proposing x-
,14 the use of fire hoses, then, on it?
.15 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, if the fire progresses to that.
16 HR. CARROLL Given that this is immediately below 17 the control room -- that is right, isn't it?
18 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
19 MR. CARROLL:
Vhat is the hydrogen explosion 20 potential here, in terms of what it could do to other 21 control rooms?
22 MR. MAXWELL:
The battery rooms are vented to the 23 outside continuously.
The batteries are scaled batteries.
24-So, we don't consider a hydrogen explosion c.* edible.
25 MR. CARROLL:
Batteries are sealed batteries, P
4
157 1
meaning what?
i
)
's /
2 MR. MAXWELL That they normally would not off-3 gas hydrogen.
Still, we back it up with the fact that we 4
vent the room continuously.
5 MR. CARROLL:
This is with a powered ventilation 6
system, or just natural draft?
7 MR. MAXWELLt Yes.
No, it is powered, essential 8
HVAC.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Is it dedicated just to the 10 battery room?
11 MR. EHLERT:
It is dedicated to the electrical 12 equipment areas, the closed cooling -oter.
! ()
13 MR. MICHELSON:
Is it common to the blue area all 14 the way down, is that what you're saying, common to the blue 15 area all the way down?
16 MR. MAXWELLt Yes.
There is one common to the 17 blue area, one to the red and one to the yellow.
It's three 18 separate systems.
19 MR. MICHELSON Wait a minute.
Three separate?
20 MR. MAXWELL Or, it is three separate essential l
21 HVAC systems, one for each division.
22 MR. CARROLLt Isn't it four, because you've got a l
23 brown here.
1 24 MR. EHLERT:
Division 4, being sensors, is linked g
,)
' ~ '
25 up to Division 2.
l
i 150 1
MR. MICHELSON:
And those ducts go up through the p_
i
)
\\m /
2 control room and that area where there's a blue square, I
)
3 guess, as perceived on our drawing.
l 4
MR. EHLERT:
That is correct.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
That's the ventilation ducts?
6 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
7 MR MAXWELLt Yes, they go up through the chaises 8
from this floor to on above.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Just one other aside.
You don't 10.
have it up on the screen.
I hope the instrument repair room 11 you show there is just a control room instrument shop and 12 not the total instrument repair facility for the site.
- [J T
13 Because if it is, it is too damn small.
1 14 MR. MAXWELL:
No, that is just for the control 15 room.
16 MR. EHLERT:
The main one, I think -- isn't there
(
i l
17 another one in the reactor building?
I believe they show 18 another one in the service building.
Yes, there is one in 19 the service building on 3B.
20-MR. CARROLL Well, that's the one I'm worried 21 about.
If that is your main instrument repair shop, you 22 don't understand the requirements.
Well
--No, I don't think 23 you understand the requirements of instruments in a power 24 plant today.
~
25 MR. CHAMBERS:
We have significantly reduced a
~'
159 1
number of safety related instruments out of the plant, too.
(m) 2 MR. CARROLL:
You may be okay.
Before I'd lock it 3
in, I think I'd go visit some power plants and see what they 4
had to do.
Whether they have had to build whole new 5
buildings for instrument repair facilities, or how many 6
triple deck trailers they've got someplace.
7 MR. MAXWELL:
Any other questions?
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Just one more question on the 9
battery room area.
I can't tell for sure if that's a common 10 room or where the heck the doors are.
That is not a common j
i 11 open space to include both the crossed hatch and the non-12 cross hatch blue, is it?
I'[/).
13 MR. MAXWELL:
No.
That 250 volt DC battery room, l
(_
L 14 there is a door right next to that column, there at -- well, 15 we don't have the --
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Where your pointer is, is that 17 where you think the door is?
18 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
The door is right there.
19 MR. EHLERT:
Yes, there is a vertical line marking 20 the door.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
So, the battery room is within 22 that portion.
Then there's a door, and outside of it are a-r 23 bunch of boards of various sorts associated with the battery 24 bank, is that what that is?
I l
25 MR. MAXWELL:
That is correct.
l
160 t
1 MR. MICHELSON:
Electrical distribution for the p_
(
)
\\/
2 DC?
3 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
That 250 volt DC battery and 4
those boards are non-safety.
i o
MR. MICHELSON:
Now, how do I get from that area 6
into the apparently in a corridor down below that, if I can 7
read this drawing worth a darn?
Isn't that a corridor 8
that's outside of that board room?
9 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, it is.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
Is there a door somewhere there?
11 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
It is right where my pointer 12 is.
()
13 MR. MICHELSON:
That's right there.
Okay.
Just 14 using a different symbol or something, I guess.
15 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, that is correct.
A different p
16 draftsman drew this one.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, that is totally separated 1
18 from the other blue area which-is yet another, an essential H
19 battery.
I guess that battery Division 1 is an essential 20 battery.
1 21 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
Those are 125 volts.
1' 22 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, I guess those would be 125 23 volts.- It has distribution panels in that room and it has a l
l 24 doorway.
Now, all of that has common ventilation.
g3
\\
25 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
The blue and the cross hatch l
1
s 161 b
1 blue have common ventilation.
,_,)
i
'/
2 MR. MICHELSON:
All the batteries are the same 3
type?
4 MR. MAXWE.'.L Yes.
5 MR. MICHI LSON:
They are all going to be scaled 6
batteries?
7 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
8 MR. CARROLL:
Now, when you put an equalizing 9
charge on a sealed battery, you still don't produce 10 hydrogen?
11 MR. MAXWELL:
It is my understanding that you 12 don't.
g
()
13-MR. EHLERT You have to burst the case to get any 14 leak which is, as I remember right, is only due to 15 overcharge.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Which is incredible?
l 17 MR. EHLERT:
It's got to be a significant 18 overcharge, plus you're only charging one battery at a time, 1
L 19 so it's going-to be --
20 MR. MICHELSON:
You mean one battery bank at a l-21 time.
22 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
L 23 MR. MICHELSON - If you burst those batteries, then l
24 you've got an interesting event going, too.
I guess that's 7-sy V
25 why you moved the batteries down below the control room.
I m-
---W
I i
162 1
(Slide.)
,_Il S'
2 MR. MAXWELL We are now up to the next elevation, 3
the control room complex.
The first thing that I guess I 4
would point out about tr's drawing is that you will notice 5
that the entire floor, xcept for the stairwells, is cross-6 hatched so that's a fire barrier floor and also the pipe 7
chases coming up from the lower are not cross-hatched, but i
8 the walls surrounding them are fire barriers.
They go on 9
through this floor at their various divisional designations.
10 MR.. MICHELSON:
Now, I can build a three hour firo 11 barrier without ever building it even out of concrete.
I 12 can' build it out of plaster board in the right amount of
(
13 layers and some stuff in between and so forth.
I don't have 14 to build a concrete wall for a three hour rating.
15 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Is this going to be a concrete 17 chase or is it going to be something else?
The reason I ask 18 is, of course, depending on what you're going to put inside i
19 of it, I might worry about whether I can contain it.
20-MR. CARROLL:
The hydrogen from the batteries.
21' MR. MAXWELL:
It has not been, to my knowledge, 22 decided, exactly what that wall will be.
We tend to think 23 in terms of concrete.
[
< ~s 24 MR. MICHELSON:
Before an FDA, I would think you 25 would be able to tell us.
I think you'd be required to tell i
163 1
us what kind of wall you're going to use in the control room i
)
V 2
for separating something like that.
It can be done --
3 MR. MAXWELL:
This control room, we believe, has 4
all the features that are in the EPRI requirements document.
5 MR. CARROLL:
No, you don't have the men's room in 6
it.
7 MR. WILKINS t It's off to the right, I see.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
You'll notice that it's out in the 9
service building.
10 MR. CARROLL I get a kick out of reading these
]
11 lists of exceptions to the EPRI requirements document.
12 You're not the only bad guys, by the way.
Combustion
)
13 doesn't do it, either.
qj 14 MR. MICHELSON:
The idea that you don't have 15 environmental control of the mens room during an accjdent; 16 is that the concern?
17 MR. CARROLL:
No, operators want a convenient 18 restroom and they don't want other people in the plant using 19 it.
They don't want the maintenance guys making a mess in 20 "their" restroom.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
I see.
22 MR. CARROLL:
That's why you've always got to put 23 it in the control room area and it's the operators' 24 restroom.
p 25 MR. MICHELSON:
There's an extra door they've got i
o-164 1
to go through.
/
T Sl 2
MR. CARROLL:
No, they can't get in.
Just the s
3 operators can use it.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
It has nothing to do with post-5 accident availability.
6 MR. CARROLL:
I don't think so.
7
( Laughter. )
-8 MR. CARROLL:
This says it's all green, other than 9
the things you pointed out.
Now, how do I bring Divisions 10 1,
2, 3,
4 stuff into the control room?
11 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay, you know, as I said earlier, 12 the control room does have all divisions in it, and if e
/~a
(
13 you'll recall the floor below, starting on the left side l
14 here, we had Division 2 and so the Division 2 cables come up 15 through the floor out of that Division 2 area and you go 16 over and the Division 4 is below.
It comes up through and 17 out in there and you go on over to Division 1 and it is 18 farther across the building and you communicate up from 19 there for your Division 1 and then your Division 3 is 20 finally over on the right of the drawing.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
You've clearly go to go all the 22 way across the room, because I can't say that all the red 23 stuff is on the righthand side of the control room.
It
,r-) _
depends on what all is coming in on that Division.
It isn't 24 L) 25 all going to be in one place.
L 165 1
MR. MAXWELL:
It's our intent that it be there.
O2 MR. MICHELSON:
You mean that there's no 3
instruments or controls or anything associated with the red 4
train that isn't, other than the extreme right here; is that 5
the idea?
6 MR. MAXWELL:
Except the panels, the control 7
panels, back row panels are on a divisional basis and they 8
will be located in that fashion.
Now, when you get to the 9
main control panel, you will have all four divisions on it.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
I would think so.
11 MR. MAXWELL:
But there will be cables 12 communicating, but again, they're fiber optic, generally.
()
13 MR. MICHELSON:
That's the only thing they will 14 be?
15 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, there are some hardwired 16 cables.
The reactor protection system scram --
17 MR. MICHELSON:
How will they be protected from 18 fire in the respective areas in the rooms underneath?
19 MR. MAXWELL:
They will be routed in conduit, and 20 to meet their separation requirements, now, -- I can't 21
. recall exactly how that is.
As I recall, it's two 22-divisions.
23 Anyway, the drawing has them associated with the 24 divisions and they will come out in conduit and go into 25 their divisional --
166 i
1 MR. MICHELSON:
Will they be in conduit in the
,._s
(
)
'\\~J 2
room underneath, across the ceiling, or will they be in 3
conduit within this green area?
4 MR. MAXWELL:
No.
The load drivers for them will 5
be in these back panels so the load drivers for the Division 6
3 will be here.
The conduit will come out of there and go 7
through the floor of Division 3 into a Division 3 room.
8 Then it can go into the reactor.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
How does it get to the main 10 control panel which is not in Division 3 underneath?
11 MR. CARROLL:
Is that a raised floor or what?
12 MR. MICHELSON:
Maybe the conduit is embedded in
[V) 13 the floor; I don't know.
14 MR. MAXWELL:
This floor is not a raised floor.
s 15 It's going to have to have conduits or wire trenches 16 embedded in the floor.
l 17 MR. MICHELSON:
They will have to be such as to be l,
18 rated for a three hour fire underneath that floor?
It's a 19 three hour floor, you told me.
No, sir, they are not required to be 21 separated by a three hour fire barrier within the control L
22 room.
They're fail-safe.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Is the control room protected from l
24 a three hour fire in the rooms below?
O 25-MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
l l
~_
k 167
' 1' MR. MICHELSON:
Well, then that embedded cable in I
'-s' !
2 the control room is also protected from a three hour fire 3
below?.
4 HR. MAXWELL:
Below, yes.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
That means that you better get the 6
thing embedded far enough up in the concrete so thet it is, 7
indeed, protected.
8 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes, it should be embedded in the 9
top and not the bottom of the floor, 10 MR. MICHELSON :
Then you better make sure that it 11 will stay cool that long embedded like that and that there's
- 1:L no heat loss or anything, no significant heat loss, r
(j-13' Those fiber optic cables,_yot' will know what kind t
)
14 of temperatures they can withstand later, I guess?
I
- 15 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Do you know now what kind.of C
17
-temperature we can talk about?
18' MR. MAXWELL:- No, I don't.
19' MR. CARROLL:
New a fire in a floor below and l
I 20-smoke and all that good stuff,--can it get into the control 21 roem through these' penetrations?
- 2 2-MR. MAXWELL:
No, they are sealed to prevent the-23 passage of smoke and flame.
That's part of the requirement 1
( ' :r -
24 of the penetration.
l- :(s_-
25 MR. CARROLL:
How about steam?
L
i 168
'l MR. MAXWELL:
Well, there shouldn't be any steam k
2 down there.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
There is auxillary steam down 4
there to keep those -- are you going to electrically heat 5
all these areas are you going to use-building auxillary 6
steam to heat them?
7 MR. EHLERT:
We're using hot water.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, that hot water lets off nice 9
water vapor, too, depending on how hot you heat your water r
10.
and so forth.
11 MR. EHLERT:
The water is only about 50 degrees C, 12 just-over 100 degrees.
)
13 MR. MICHELSON:
It will flash some, yes.
uJ 14 MR.: CARROLL:
A hundred degrees F?
15.
MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
It will still flash some, 16 not much, as-long he's got gravity working the right 17 direction here.
18 MR. CARROLL:
You'd better not be turning on the 19 hot-water faucet at home.
i
-20 MR. MICHELSON: -He hasn't told us about how much' l
21 hot water he has put above the control room yet.
22 MR. MAXWELL:
Any other questions on the control 1
23 room floor?
24 (No response.)
'-g t
ij 25 MR. MICHELSON:
You would use some big heat 3
169 1-exchangers if he's only going to use 100-degree water.
x-2 (Slide.]
' 3.
MR. MAXWELL:
This is the floor above the control 4
room.
The computer room is up here, and'we have included it S
as part of the control room now.
6 Here is another disconnect.
The cross-hatching 7
here-means that the area contains ducting and cables, HVAC 8
ducting and electrical cables associated with the control 9
room, and therefore, this corridor here that's yellow, 10 cross-hatched yellow, has a duct here that's the division 2 11 supply duct for the control room, t
12 MR. MICHELSON:
The cables trays are not going n-f 1.
13 down into the control room, are they?
You don't have any O
14 electrical penetrations in this floor.
Is that right?
15 MR. MAXWELL:
.No.
There are electrical j
116 penetrations of the floor in that there are cables coming up 17-those chases for the computer.
J
~
i l'8 '
MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
.l 191 MR. MAXWELL:
And there are cables, then, coming-
'20 up through the chases from below, for the areas below the q
21 control room.
22' MR. MICHELSON:
Those chases are fed by dropping
I 1
23 down underneath the panels and coming across and then: going 2 4 '.
up through the chase?
.V 25 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
1
W.,
r l
170 11 MR. MICHELSON:
So, there is no top entry of ay 1
)
ox /
2 anything in the control room, essentially.
U
-3 MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
5 MR. CARROLL:
How come you haven't provided office 6
space for a desk and stuff?
7 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, I guess because we didn't.
8 That's a good thought.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Computer jocks at my former utility 10-would never. forgive you for that.
11 MR. MAXWELL:
Well, we'll have to take.the spare 3
12 off of a couple of_-these panels and put them a desk there.
W
(
)L 13-MR. CARROLL:
They have already put more computers
~ ~, -
14 in.
l l'
/
^
L l>
'15
- MR. 'MICHELSON:
We'll give you 4 more minutes if 16 you want to meet your schedule.
I'd also suggest that you 17 arrange for a cab to come and pick you up-at whatever you 18 think the time has to_be.
If you've got a car, that's 4
19' better yet,_maybe.
. :2 0 =
MR. MAXWELL:. Well, I just want to point'out, i
p 12 1-then, that the solid-colored areas are associated with the l
22-HVAC for the divisional areas below.
For instance, this-23 blue is the division 1 HVAC for the solid-blue areas below.
24 The yellow is yellow because it's usod as the division 2 22 5 HVAC for the yellow areas below, services this area.
1 m.
171 1:
There are two MG sets at this elevation of the
.h U-2 control 'ouilding.
They supply the power to six of the s
t 3-reactor internal pumps.
4-MR. MICHELSON:
Are they all air-cooled?
5 MR. MAXWELL:
Yes.
6 MR. CARROLL:
How about the computers?
They're 7.
air-cooled?
C 8
'MR. MAXWELL:
Air-cooled.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, the big water source above 10 the control room looks like that chiller package over in the 11 corner.
You've got some big water-lines going to the
-12 chillers.
13-MR. MAXWELL:
That's correct.
That's the division 14' 3 emergency --
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, how are you going to make 16 sure that. water-never-gets into the control room?
-17 MR. MAXWELL:
By that_ floor being watertight, it's 18 a-fire-barrier floor, and there-should be no' penetrations of
~ hat floor.
19 c
20 MR. MICHELSON:
Now, the piping -- I guess you're 21-using component cooling water for that.
That's coming up 22
-some kind of an outside chase up through the control room to
-23 get there?
24 MR. MAXWELL:
It should come up these chases, one 25 of these chases here, d
172 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay, those ventilation chases 1-1k-.
2 that you have in there.
Okay.
So, indeed, then, that wall l
3 through the control room for those chases is very important, because it's got a big pipe in it that's probably at least 4
l 5
an 8-inch water pipe, depending on what the capacity is.
I 6
MR. EHLERT:
It's a one-third capacity.
There's 7
two more on the next level.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
You got to have all the piping for 9
all of them going'up there, but each of them has one-third 10 the capacity.
l 11 MR. EHLERT:
Yes.
12 (Slide.]
l i
13 MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
Just going on up to the next.
1
,v.
14.
floor -- then we'll naybe quit and catch our plane -- this j
l-1 15 is the remaining of the HVAC and the chiller units up here.
16 The. division 2 chiller units sit in here; the division 1 L
17 chiller units are over here.
18 The control room HVAC systems are also on this I
19
. floor.
There's the B system and the -- it's actually the A
'20-system, control room system, but it's provided power and 21 cooling off the C, so that we have in the control room, if 22 we. lose both the divisions 1 -- or 2 and 3 cooling systems 23
.by,some means, we still have the remote shutdown panel on 24 division 1 where you can go to safely shut the plant down.
25 So, it's give us safe-shutdown for the loss of two divisions 2
5 173 1
of' cooling.
4
.2 Again, the cross-hatched section here refers to 3-the control room.
l 4
Are there any questions on this floor?
5 (No response.)
6 MR. MICHELSON:
I believe that's it.
7-MR. MAXWELL:
Okay.
With your permission I'd like 8
to go catch a plane now.
9 MR. MICllELSON:
Sure.
We appreciate very much --
10 you recognize this has been primarily educational for us.
11 We-were trying to understand what we had in front of us and 12 to'get some-feel for it.
I think you've done an excellent llk 13 job of giving us the information that we've needed..
14 I think we now have to go back, and as we start 115 reviewing eventually the ABWR -- where these layouts have
- 16 become effective -- then we will go into more detail as 171 needed.
But right now I think this has been a good 18 overview.
.19 MR, CARROLL:
Yeah.
Except'we missed one section 20.
I was particularly interested =in and that's the use of solid 21 state components.
We didn't get to that.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Yeah.
That'll be our next'-- We 23 will have, I hope, a subcommittee meeting on that subject in 24 which GE-and combustion and Westinghouse can all tell us 25 about it.
174 1
MR. CHAMBERS:
While these two guys are leaving, I 2
can answer your question on N minus 2 that was asked earlier
'3 '
since I don't have a plane to catch here.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Why don't you have a plane to catch?
5 MR. CHAMBERS:
Because I have to stay around for a 6'
couple more days.
b 7
MR. CARROLL:
Oh, okay.
8 MR. CHAMBERS:
The one scenario where we're not N 9
minus 2 is where we have one diesel generator out of service 10 in either the Division 2 or Division 3, and we get a LOCA
-11 with a loss of offsite power where the line break is in the l12 LPCI injection line or -- the low pressure on the A h
,13 Division.
The lower pressure on the A Division -- Division
'14 1 is also the division that has RCIC in'it.
15 So if you already had Division 2 or 3 diesel out.
16
.of service, had a line break on Division 1, and had the
' 17 -
other division diecal fail to start, all you'd have left is
\\
c i" )p '
L18 RCIC.
And that's only a high pressure so eventually you'd st n
d'!
L19 blow down through the break and have no low pressure makeup 12 0 -
capability because your one low pressure system left is
' cu
-h 21 where the line break was, q...
~"
'22 So it's a very obscure scenario.
But that's o
23 strictly N minus 2.
We still, you know, are there on N 24 minus 1.
e
{"
25 MR. MICHELSON:
That's the only time, irrespective
5 175
,_s l'
of the state of the operation whether it's at shut down or
(
h-kl
-2 full power, thats the only case where you are not N minus 3
2?
4 MR. CHAMBERS:
Yeah.
Now I also --
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Or N plus 2.
6 MR. CHAMBERS:
Right.
I also looked into the shut 7
down capability, and.I think that's where some of the 8
confusion comes in.
We talked about needing one or two 9
divisions of RHR to accomplish certain shutdown capability, 10 and that has to do with how fast you can cool down.
11 We can get the cold shut down given no time l
.12 constraints with any one division.
lA 13 Now the requirement that you be below 212 degrees lg) i 14 within'36 hours4.166667e-4 days <br />0.01 hours <br />5.952381e-5 weeks <br />1.3698e-5 months <br /> takes two divisions to get there because you l
l 15 have to make some worse case assumptions on your ultimate M16 heat sync at 95 degrees F.,
etc.
l:
l 17 With those assumptions we ended up calculating-t l
18-about 85 hours9.837963e-4 days <br />0.0236 hours <br />1.405423e-4 weeks <br />3.23425e-5 months <br /> to get there versus the 36 with just one.
19 MR.. CARROLL:
As opposed to 36?
20 MR. CHAMBERS:. Significantly less than 36 if we 21-have two.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Other than that you're -- then at-23-a two or three divisional system only one division which is e-s -
24 needed.for all but this one accident?
L.)\\
c' 25 MP. CHAMBERS:
Right.
u it 176 l'
MR. - MICHELSON:
I'll go back and see what I read l
' = \\~)1 ;
r i
2-before.
It could be it was out of --
1 3
MR. CHAMBERS:
You probably read the section on 4
RHR where they're talking about getting shut down and --
5 MR. MICHELSON:
I remember it -- right.
I knew l
6 you.needed two out of three for the 36.
I thought it was 72 7
' hours or --
I 8'
MR. CARROLL:
Tell me the scenario again just so I 9
have it clear in my-mind?
4 i
10 MR.' CHAMBERS:
The LOCA scenario, where we're not
[
4
'11' N minus 2 is a LPCI A line break --
12 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
LPCI.A line break --
l 1
( [
. 13 MR. CHAMBERS:
That's where the LOCA is, with a 14-concurrent loss of offsite power --
l' 15 !
MR. CARROLL:
Break LOCA --
j 16 MR. CHAMBERS:
Where --
17-MR.' CARROLL:
Plus loop.
i j
11 8 -
MR. CHAMBERS:
Okay.
Where either Division 2 or 19 Division 3 diesel is out of service --
.20 MR. CARROLL:
If 2 or-3 EDG out --
l=
'21 MR.. CHAMBERS:
-- and the other one fails to 1'
. start, that's your single failure.
23 FUL CARROLL:
-- plus other of those two --
24 MR. CHAMBERS:
Right.
o 25 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
u
i 177 1
MR. WILKINS:
That is with Division I?
..fs --
4
,k/
2 MR. CHAMBERS:
Right.
And only RCIC because you 3-had the line -
your injection line on your low pressure 4
system on Division 1 is broken.
Of course, when you blow 5-down you don't have steam to drive the RCIC turbine any 6
more.
i 7
MR. CARROLL:
What are you going to do about that?
8 MR. CHAMBERS:
Well, N minus 2, you know.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
He just has redundant capability 10 to handle'that event.
Yeah.
Instead of triplicate 11 capability.
12 Any:other clarifications or any other questions or
)
13
. comments or whatever?
14:
MR. CARROLL:
Well, your answer is, I guess, 15 you've got your alternate AC generator capable of replacing
{
16 one or --
17 MR. CHAMBERS:
In reality, we've got'several other
-18 means.
Alternate AC power feeding a' condensate pump.or feed 19 water pump.
20 MIN CARROLL:
Wouldn't it feed -- is it big enough-21 to carry Division 2'or 3?
.22' MR.' CHAMBERS:
Yeah, it should be able-to carry 23 one of those pumps as'well.
24 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
So one had a diesel --
25 MR. CHAMBERS:
Certainly one of the -- either the
cc,
?q Y
c; W 178 u; lic 4
m...
lt high or low presbure pump of one of those systems.
Yeah.
I
[.h 2
don't know if we've fully analyzed how you might have a
^
3 system out of service so that you couldn't get power right A
4 back to it.
But certainly after a time you could get back u'
- 5-to it, y
6 Plus, if you look at our alternate AC --
7-MR. CARROLL:
No, you could have a diesel all tore 8'
up to the point that it would take you a week to put it back 9
together.
1 10 MR. CHAMBERS:
We also have our AC independent
+
11 water addition system where'we have the firewater system N
12 hooked into the RHR that'we could get water into the vessel.
)
'13' MR. CARROLL: 'But those aren't safety graded.
D c
b, 14
-MR.
CHAMBERS:
That's the severe accident (G
15 counterraasure.
,3,;,- y 16 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
About the only comment I.would
[
18 like to make atLthis' time, and'I guess it's because'I wasn't 19 thinking clearly.enough, and that is that it does look.like L1 20 there's going to have to be an. awful careful look at that O;
21 control building arrangement with the-control: room low grade-o 22 and.the potential for.the~ reservoir that's supplying.all the g
e l[a '
23 water to the' basement of the control building being at 1'
24 grade.
q
.v-25 MR. CARROLL:
Unless they have a thousand year.
L 1
179 1
flood?.
(,,)
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, I haven't thought way out on 3
thisLthing, but that caught me a little bit off.
I didn't 4
quite appreciate that -- you know, I didn't think about it.
1 5
I also -- in going up through the control building 6
it certainly isn't a very -- there's an awful lot of j
7 crossing'over.
It isn't nice clean three divisions straight 8
up.
It's a lot of this and that and in the corners and-9.
whatever.
'10 But it can be done.
-It just is not a clean
~11 arrangement.
That's just an observation.
But it certainly 12
'can'be done.
It just means you have to answer more
. i]m.
(
13 questions probably on how you do it.
14 Any comments from other members?
15 (No response.]
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Where we go-from here is we just 17 use this as input.
We're still waiting to get going on ABWR 18 again at such time as the staff gets its marching orders and 19 starts turning out material and we start reviewing it.
I 20 don't know that schedule yet.
The staff _.probably doesn't 21 know that schedule until the Commission indicates what they
- 22.
want done, but it looks like it'll be a'while yet.
23 Does the staff have anything more they-want to
- / g 24 comment on?
Y.)
25 MR. CHAMBERS:
I can't think of anything at this
180
~
.1-time.
' \\ J.
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Well, I found this to be very 3
useful.
It was a different kind of meeting, but it was 4
primarily.for our edificatino, and I think we certainly got
-5.
educated and I thought it was useful.
6 MR. CARROLL:
If not edified.
-7 MR. MICHELSON :
If not edified.
So if there are 8
no other comments, then, I 'll close -- adjourn the meeting.
9 (Whereupon, at 4:40 p.m.,
the meeting was 10 adjourned.]
11.
'12 p)-
_13 js_
14 15 i
16.
L 17'-
-18 19 20
' 21~
- 22 i
23 I
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24 l
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25
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)-
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceed-ings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING:
ACRS Advanced Boiling Water Reactors D0CKET NUMBER:
PLACE OF PROCEEDING:
Bethesda, Maryland were held as herein appears,_and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission
, 1
.taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me.or under the direction of the court report -
ing company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
d' i 1
W/w w
v
- y Official Reporter
' Ann:Riley & Associates, Ltd.
n i
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l u
l'
~,.7
l {4 4,
,,+
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,h PRESENTATION TOPICS
~
s k
s
,l 0
ULTIMATE FIRE PROTECTION DESIGN OBJECTIVE O
PASSIVE FEATURES CONTRIBUTING TO ACHIEVEMENT
.0F THE ULTIMATE FIRE PROTECTION GOALS
' O THREE HOUR DIVISIONAL SEPARATION EXCEPTIONS 0
TOUR OF-THE REACTOR AND CONTROL BUILDINGS VIA 10 C0t0R C00E0 iUit0INa ARRANsEMENT ORAw1NsS 1
0.
SECONDARY CONTAINMENT HVAC SYSTEM FIRE SEPARATION 0
SUMMARY
OF THE USE OF SOLID STATE CONTROLS FOR THE. PLANT
=
E lO JEM-1
__:-__-_z____-________--___----______-_--_---_-_______=__-_________-_-___-_-
____.____.._._._.___._..y i
s.--
j l
ULTIMATE FIRE PROTECTION DESIGN OBJECTIVE j
L COMPLETE BURNOUT WITHOUT RECOVERY OF A
- t SINGLE FIRE ZONE SHALL BE ACCEPTABLE LOL i
)
O:
JEM-2
.+-
m
-i.-
m.
m w
p n'
PASSIVE FEATURES CONTRIBUTING TO THE g-FIRE PROTECTION DESIGN OBJECTIVE l
L i
L 0
THREE INDEPENDENT DIVISIONS OF WATER INJECTION AND DECAY HEAT REMOVAL FOR RPV l
0-THREE INDEPENDENT DIVISIONS OF SAFETY-RELATED SUPPORT' SYSTEMS O
- THREE-HOUR RATED FIRE BARRIERS BETWEEN REDUNDANT DIVISIONS i
0 ONLY EQUIPMENT OF ONE DIVISION IN A FIRE i
AREA (ZONE)
SPECIAL CASE EXCEPTIONS O
ONLY SAFETY-RELATED SERVICES (PIPING, HVAC, O
CABLES) 0F ONE DIVISION.WITHIN A FIRE AREA g
0 FIRE ZONES OF LIKE DIVISIONS CONTIGUOUS IF-POSSIBLE 0
ONLY SAFETY'-RELATED' SERVICES OF ONE DIVISION:
BETWEEN DIVISIONAL FIRE AREAS 0
REDUCED CABLE QUANTITIES AND CONCENTRATIONS 0
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THREE HOUR' DIVISIONAL SEPARATION EXCEPTIONS CONTROL ROOM REMOTE SHUTDOWN PANEL F
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-ANALYSIS ANALYSES EACH CASE
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