ML19351F069
| ML19351F069 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Saint Lucie  |
| Issue date: | 03/11/1980 |
| From: | TALLAHASSEE, FL |
| To: | TALLAHASSEE, FL |
| Shared Package | |
| ML17209A483 | List: |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8012290395 | |
| Download: ML19351F069 (12) | |
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l "(:) Transcript of Tallahassee City Commissioners Meeting l
March 11, 1980 item 6 - City Involvement in Nuclear Power 1
City Manager This issue is listed on the agenda at the Dan Kleman: request of the Mayor and really deals with two issues -- we've provided material in the l
Commission's folders I think regarding both of those issues. The first issue is the law-l suit in which the city is a participant along l
with I believe twelve other cities against l
! the Florida Power and Light Company. A por-tion of that lawsuit deals with nuclear power I questions. The second issue, if you wish to carry the discussion further, we provided simply material in your folder regarding pros and cons of nuclear power in general from the standpoint of our ownership of an electric utility. I think the is. sue that's probably of most importance to make certain that there is a clear City Commission position ong is the issue of the FPL lawsuit, and if there is any desire to change what has been the City's position on that issue, I think it would be s
important to know that.
Mayor Richard Mr. Kleman, I would like to ask you possibly P. Wilson: one question on this right now. At what time was it that Mr. Rudd's motion carried thatDoes we have the study done on alternate fuels?
anybody remember that date?
Mr. Kleman: It was a six month study and the motion was l
l to hurry it up quicker than that, as quick as we could.
- Mayor Wilson: I know, but what month was that?
Mr. Kleman: Probably January.
Mayor Wilson: Early January?
Mr. Kleman: I don't remember exactly.
Mayor Wilson: Well, here's one thing that concerns me there, the Commission has asked for an alternate fuel study to be done, and yet on January 29, in memorandum, it says " comparing the cost of nuclear energy with that of coal and oil", that does not bother me, but then it goes on to say r
k 3 "the only. two. available alternatives to- nuclear. ~
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Power." You know, that's a memorandum that's
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Mayor Wilson: brought back in on alternate sources and it seems to be a strong basis of trying to buy into St. Lucie 2, as well as get pricing agreement, and that bothers me.
Mr. Kleman: I think there are, it's important to under-stand and identify two features, there really are two studies,that the City Commission has authorized. One being done by the R. W. -
Beck Company reviewing " traditional" fuels if you will, fossil fuels, nuclear, coal primarily, hydro-electric if that's available.
The second study is the one dealing with al-ternative fuels. I think the memo that you have referenced to is really only speaking to l
l the traditional fuel question there. Nowhere on my part or the part of the Staff are we j
! writing off the, alternative fuel issue or ,;-y A r W ,
writing off the Talquin Dam er (unintelligible) fesourc
! recovery, energy reclamation, any of those -
issues. But the lawsuit deals with'what really is fuel generated by traditional fuels. There '
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. are four that I mentioned.
Mayor Wilson: All ri.ght now let me ask you this too. Have we done business with FPL in the past?
Mr. Kleman: I'm not sure what you mean by business. Have ke purchased electricity?
Mayor Wilson: Yes, Mr. Kleman: No, I don't believe so. Joe Dykes is probably in the best position to respond to that question.
J. Dykes: ; FPL would be the last'one to conduct the business -
i we need.
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, Mr. Kleman: They have expressed some reluctance in dealing with municipal utilities in the State of Florida.
Commissioner I notice in the confidential memorandum which Iturley Rudd: the attorney sent out on this subject, that he indicated (laughter) (unintelligible) that he indicated that the settlement would be satis-l
' f actory with their customers and with people within their service area, but which we couldn't neither one. I didn't see where ,the City of Tallahassee would be eligible in any of the settlements which he indicated would be, if you read that, unless it's the first one where he talks about litigate.
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Mr. Kleman: It, I think, speaks to the ratio shared being transferable among intervenors, which would include all of the cities or to a municipal power supply agency which the Florida Munici-pal Power Association would qualify for.
Mr. Rudd: But we're putting all our eggs in the basket with Florida Municipal Power Association, aren't we, rather than standing on our own bottom?
Mr. Klaman:- Well, I don't think we can say we're putting them all with FMPA. Certainly this City government fought long and hard to get the state legislature to pass legislation to allow the creation of an agency like that and we've been active participants in it since its founding.
It's not exactly the same list of cities as the intervenors. What I think we would recommend-to you at this point is that based upon what we seem to be a number of economic advantages to the city and ultimately to our electric customers, that the City continue its partici-pation in the lawsuit and that you reserve any judgment as you would have to anyhow as to whether you would wish to purchase any of the nuclear power that might be offered as an outcome of that
' lawsuit. There are some significant benefits l
that would come to the City that would not i necessarily require ownership in nuclear power in the lawsuit - issues. such as the postage-stamp wheeling rate throughout the state. In effect the same rate being charged to transfer power from Miami to Pensacola as it would be to transfer power from St. Petersburg to Tampa or to adjoining systems. - There is also the opper-tunitv,to buy base load power that does not involve the ownership of nuclear. That's an important part of the lawsuit. If Imayr your honor, I have a chart which I would like to show.
the city Commisston which tries ; identify some of those non-nuclear financial benefits.
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l , ,,f. . v . . . Speaker #5: Go right ahead.
What we have attempted to identify is to. -
Mr. Kleman:
summarize those issues as I say that we tot
' involve the City making a decision to own
- additional nuclear and the lawsuit covers these kinds of issues. First, the opportunity to buy power frcm FPL-to buy part cf their base load power that that be shared with the-City. That is simply much cheaper power than we can generate.on our own.+ It?-s estimated m e that the'. suit speaks.toithe City.'s ' share of -
base load power being 60 megawatts out of a 200 megawatt: total asked for by the intervening
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cities. That's estimated to result in savings Mr. Kleman: for the City of Tallahassee electric system ofThe 569 million dollars over a ten year period.
second financial advantage is the opportunity if we acquire the cheaper baseload power that
( allows us to have additional excess, capacity for the next seven years in our own system and I
l to have that power available for sale. The sale of that excess power, the city would have to purchase it, but the opportuni*y is there for further savings identified as $8.7 million over that seven year period. The lawsuit also requests because of alleged antitrust violations by the Florida Power and Light Ccupany, damages esti- % :,
mated to be in the vicinity of $10 milli'm for the intervening cities. The possible, case retTle-ment to the city for those antitrust ' Violations if the courts declare that to be the case would be estimated to be a cash settlement for the City of $3 million. Those are financial issues, the others really deal with support and our involve-ment in the FHPA, the agency of municipal utili- ~
ties which will own, operate and supply electri city to various munictpalities that are members.
Support comes about really by insisting that there be this statewide wheeling rate which benefits other cities and ourselves as well.
,These are all issues that we think are important and reasons why we ought to stay in the FPL litigation, even if you subsequently make a l
l decision that you don't want to participate in the ownership of any additional nuclear power plants. I would be happy to respond to questions regarding this.
Cc=missioner First, a rather specific question, aren't there Carol Bellamy: litigation costs that we could also recover with a' favorable outcome?
It's Mr. Kleman: Yes, I did n : list that as an advantage. The lawsuit
' a cost we would not have to incur.
requeststhat attorney's fees in the amount of
$500,000,00 be paid by FPL, our attorney's fees.
Mayor Wilson: How much have we spent so far?
Mr. Kleman: Approximately $210-220,000.
Mayor Wilson: What portion of that is the City of Tallahassee?
Mr. Kleman: That's our portion, that's what we've committed.
Mayor Wilson: That's half of the total of' all thei:cities.-- .
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us. Bella=y: or would the $500,000 he potentially for Tallahassee?
4 Mr. Kleman: No, the $500,000 is to cover all cities.
i Ken Morgan: Yes, that correct, there is $10 million (Director, Electric in consideration for all the claims out Utilities) that we would be given . . . .
Mayor Wilson: The memorandun says $15 million.
Mr. Morgan We scaled that down to $10. ' [,
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t% . .. < ~ i .. T.R l Mayor Wilson: Well, I've got I guess, a basic problem with it, and that is government trying to get itself in-volved in forcing the buying into private or public-owned corporations. I have a basic problem there. Another' problem I have, and I know yet another issue that's going to be coming up considering about $2.5 million worth of possible proposed bonds, which is simply that I don't feel like this lawsuit is going to benefit the .
City of Tallahassee that much and I get the funny feeling that the reason we're hanging tight in this lawsuit is simply because some of the cities that are also involved in this suit and it may be basically the same two, I don't reme=ber exactly, hung in there on the pas I settlement lawsuit that we had, and I think that was one that was very important to this City. I
! don't think this is one that is going to benefit l us to that great extent. We 're saying that some-body is not going to deal with the City of l Tallahassee and that someone is somebody that we have never dealt with. Now, you know, if we are hanging tight in this suit simply to support other cities; because th'ey supported us earlier and they benefit frem, I just don't see where the benefits
- coming are that great to us on this one.
Mr. Kleman: My primary reason in recommending that you con-l tinue to be involved in this lawsuit are the l financial implications when the suit is won by the intervening cities. Direct financial bene-fits to the City of Tallahassee.
Mr. Rudd: On the lawsuit itself as I have read all of the information which you have given me -- there seems to be sound and good reason for remaining in the lawsuit from a financial standpoint. I would like it understood though, that if, and when the lawsuit is settled, and if I am still l
a Commissioner on the City Commision o,f.Tallahas __.-
! . see, I do .not want to have any portion:oriany i
part in buying into St. Lucie. Nor do~I want I
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us to consider buying nuclear plants. Obviously, Mr. Rudd: if we can buy power which has been manufactured by nuclear from a company, I am not going to try to (unintelligible) electricity. But on the One otherthing hand, I don't want any ownership in St. Lucie.
that bothers me, and Mr. Wilson alluded to it briefly, and that is this FMPA, which as I under-stand it is in the process and it may be I'm worried because I don't understand it, but FMPA a group of cities are in the process, and I think they probably have a contract which they are studying at this time - which we are studying -
which would borrow up to $2.5 million, which would be paid off in bonds if they can float it, but if that organization did not fly, and it were to f ail, in some way, then each city would become responsible for, a pro rata share of that $2.5 million-which in the case of the City of Tallahas-see would be about 30% and we're talking about a contract, we're negotiating all of this and so far as I know, none of this has been presented to us. I'm sure the contract will be presented to us prior to signing, but it would appear that these things would be explained to us and tell 4
us what FMPA is, how long has it been in exis-tence, what is its chances of success and all those good points Before we get so deeply in-volved that they Become a part of our lawsuit and they become a part of our negotiation, they become a part of cur planning and all of a sudden our interes,t is wrapped up in their interest; and I don't know why. As far as continuing the law-suit, it does appear,11r. Wilson, and I know its been a concern of yours, it does appear to me that it would be wise for the City of Tallahassee to continue,
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15yor Wilson: Mr. Rudd, if that's your opinion., of course, I
- can't argue with that, but I would love to see you amend it as where if you did state in there that we would not buy into St. Lucie 2 e r e A_
Mr. Kicman: You may want to have the advice of the City Attorney on the issue of selectively supporting the other intervening parties in the lawsuit, I don't but I would recon: mend you not do that.
know Bryan's opinion.
fir. Rudd: I didn't follow what you said.
Bryan Henry (.?):Uhat he said sir is that if you make that double (City Atter- barrel motion, that you may well at that point ney) have ruined your. chance to recover in..the lawsuit. ,
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Mr. Rudd: Well, I don't want to do that, I made a statement of opinion which said I do not want to buy into nuclear and also that .
it would be wise to continue.
Mr. Henry: Now whether or not if the lawsuit turns out successfully you exercise your right as given by the court to purchase into the plant is one thing, but a cormitment at this point really might destroy the whole basis of your being in there in pe first place.
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I think what we're doing in bringing this up Hs. Bella=y:
for discussion and separating the elements that are going into our continuation, if that is the wish of the commission, is the important thing.
I think that we are going on the record, we are expressing our views on the different elements at stake here and I think there are people here which are certainly going to hold up accountable for the distinctions that we make and having said that, I would like to go -further now and say that from what I can tell, I think the supply this suit is one that should be continued.
and its control on energy sources is a critical factor in our future, the state as well as locally. I think that this antitrust litigation
-is probably an important element in the state's future to make sure that utilities all operate responsibly and properly in dealing with each other and with,their customers. So I favor the continuation of this litigation. At the same time I want to make it very clear that I believe the people of Tallahassee and I for one as one of those citizens and as a member of the Commis-
' sion want to avoid any purchase in the St. Lucie l
plant and any future ownership of anymore nuclear power for our energy source. I think that this discussion is sufficient to make that clear toIs ourselves and to the public here on record.
a motion in order?
R a W e r -?
First before you make a motion I know that there are probably 'seme people here from the audience
// ' , - */',,' that would like to Be heard so anyone that would i
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' like to Be heard would you please raise your hand.
Yes sir, would you come forward please? Now because there is not going to be any change there will Be no motion.
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Roy Howard: My name is Roy Howard, I live at 649
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~~ ftngleside Avenue, and I guess my comment on it would be as to the amendment that was sort
. of off the cuff mention about not buying'in
, to nuclear power. I think that that needs to I be on the record somewhere, whether its in a formal amendment or whether its a resolution l that's put in there or somehow because no one on this Commission might be on the Commission
' in ten years, five years, or whenever it might l cane up again I think it needs to be more than l just a statement.
! Mayor Wilson: Roy, I would say this since I was the one that made that off the cuff remark to Mr. Rudd and that is simply this, if 1.t.'s the sentiment of the Commission to continue in this lawsuit I would definit.ely not want to have an amendment put to it at this time that would preclude us from recovering the cost that we already have in the lawsuit.
Roy Ecward: Yes, I understand that, I just wanted to some- -
where be on the record of Commissioner Rudd's statement, Commissioner Belamey's statement, and whoever else on the Commission that agrees with us and its clearly on the records some-where in the County Commission or the City
' Commission, thank you, County Commission too.
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Speaker-? Is there anyone else that would like to be heard --
yes sir?
Rick Johnson: My name is Rick Johnson, 122 South Franklin Boulevard, I believe that there are two distinct issues here and Mr. He'nry can correct me if I'm wrong,,but I understand that it might be a foolish maneuv'er in ter' m s of recovering some of these l , ether things here if the suit were amended at this i time in order to exclude the portion of it that I would give Tallahassee the right to buy into the nuclear power plant. But I can't understand how it would affect that lawsuit if the City Commission were tc pass a resolution today indicating its intent not to purchase nuclear power at St.
Lucie or at any other plant and I would also like to hear from Commissieners Ford and Hilamen on this, apparently the other three of you have made your position clear.
Mayor Wilson: Let me respond just a second Mr. Ford before you do and that's the part of that question I would as I say, I wouldn't want to see that i
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Mayor Wilson: happen because of the damage to the lawsuit, but the other thing was I think this Commission would be taking the same stand that I just criticized a menorandum from Staff on earlier tonight when they made a statement saying that there is only one alternative to the two other such as coal and oil. And while we have a study on alternatives and sources --
that due back in in next few weeks, I think we t
would be making that same type of statement at the wrong time.
Rick Johnson: Do I understand you to be saying that even an expression of senti =ent that it's the choice of the Commission not to buy into nuclear power some point in the future Is would jeopardize that what you're i
our position' in the lawsuit.
saying?
Mayor Wilson: Yes, that's exactly what legal has just told us.
Rick Johnson: The of.her Conmtissioners perhaps? .
i Commissioner since you made a request to have some position James Ford: on my position as it relates to alternate sources of energy for the City of Tallahassee, I would really hate to see this Commission get itself j
emotionally involved in making decisions today that will affect situations that would come twenty years from now and those Commissioners who are going to follow this commission because we really are not in a position at this moment to predict what scientific advancement and the
' control of nuclear energy that might be forth-coming. And I don't want to rule it out as We've saying its an impossible thing to enquer.
conquered space, we've conquered alot of other things and to become hysterical because we have
- some problems rather than looking objectively at solutions to that problem, I am not of the opinion of implementing that alternative at this time, but I don't want to close doors on the probability, the resolutions or any other thing the City of Tallahassee will never becomeYou involved in the use of alternat nergy sources.
know, we never though- we could split the atem, many of these kinds of decisions were made twenty-five years we were talking about the smallest particle of matter. That is not true today. We have gone beyond that and we're going to 1 -
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i Mr. Ford: conquer much of the fears that we have and talk about now. I can, however, express.this assurance that I have no desire at this time to become involved in expanding our ownership 1
' that will make us liable for what might come '
' as a result of catastrophe in a nuclear gener-ating plant and I think we ought to be looking at alternate sources of energy, but I.certainly would not rule out the probability that the future that Tallahassee might very well need to be in the nuclear generation posture. I think it would be foolish to -- just like we're thinking about going back to horse and buggy now because we have a shortage of gasoline.
I think our scientific know-how and the quest for knowledge is such that we're going to conquer '
the problem and I don't think that we have as much to fear as we going through if we use a little bit of judgment and caution in what we do. I don't think right now we ought to '
abandon it at all and I think that while it is not in my opinion to the City's advantage to be large owners in nuclear energy, I don't think on the other hand it should by any means rule out its opportunities.
Cc==issioner J just campaigned for about eight or ten weeks Sheldon and I see alot of these same people at those Hilaman: meetings. I mention, as been mentioned tonight, we have two firms making studies. I feel that they'll have alot of expertise. We've been mentioning the word alternative fuels. Not a one of us at this table know what that alterna-
'I also sit here ton gi ht tive fuel might Be.
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and listen to advice of an attorney. I uphold that g,entleman and I will answer that I will at this time speak the way that he's directed this bench to speak as it affects what has been pre-sented to us tonight.
Paul Harve11: Hi, my name is Paul Harve11, I reside at 721 East 6th Avenue here in Tallahassee.
Since these statements have just been made on tape and uill later be transcribed, I under-stand, therefore~, a matter of public record, how would that affect since the concern seems to be very much with whether the resolution .
is or is not passed, how that would affect the court outcome, ruit outcome, since there is some record that could be submitted to the court by FPL, what are the results of this?
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4 tir. Henry: You may be assured that FPL will order a transcript and they will consider it and use j it in every way possible in defense of their
- position. This Co= mission has not and this commission cannot bind future commissions
] as to whether future Commissions will or will 4
not decide to take advantage of whatever gains might be made in the lawsuit. This Commission can each individually express how they feel tonight, which they have done, but they have taken no official position, and even if they took an official action, it would not bind future Commissions, but an official position here tonight might influence the lawsuit to our detriment. Is that clear?
Paul Harvell: ' Clear enough it,is.
John Buckley: John Buckley from 2014 E. Indianhead Drive. . I've been associated with the Catfish Alliance l and alot of other social issue movements :or i a long, long time and have often had to take .
very difficult positions and have lost ocpor-tunties, jobs and what have you as a result of it. I understand people who have alot of invested energy and time would prefer not to put at risk all of that investment. And so I offer you a potential out. The State of Montana passed resolutions that said they would not accept the placement of nuclear power plants i until certain unresolved safety issues had been satisfactorily, publicly resolved. For instance, the issue of waste, the testing of the emergency core cooling system and things such as that.
I I take cognizance of the fact that at least three l
- of the7 Commission members have stood very firmly on ground that I think is not yet as popular as it may be five years from now. If this will affect the lawsuit too drastically, then perhaps those things too have to be considered, but I would urge you at the earliest possible date, to discover those unresolved safety issues to make yourself firmly acquainted with them. The future perhaps of the earth, and certainly of our own children depends upon it. Jerry Brown says it I
affects the gene pool, I just say it affects my kids and I don't think we can afford to put off decisions on these matters for too much longer.
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l Speek 7 John, thank you very much. Normally, we adjourn at 6:30 and reconvene at 7':00 for our public l
l hearing and we've gone over that time.now, so s the meetingC.will. stand adjourned till the time ,
we will come back for the public hearing on TAL TRAN and then we will pick up on regular agenda where we left off.
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APPENDIX C a
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