ML19262B865
| ML19262B865 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/15/1979 |
| From: | Charles Brown NRC OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY (SECY) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19262B859 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 SECY-79-082, SECY-79-82, NUDOCS 8001150477 | |
| Download: ML19262B865 (51) | |
Text
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/ NUCLEAR REGULATORY GOMMISSlON DISCUSSION OF SECY-79-82 STAFF COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE COMMISSION March 15, 1979 1921 014 Par
- 51 Prepared by:
C. H. Brown Office of the Secretary 8 0 0115 0 y 7[
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o DISCLAII:E_R This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States i:uclear Regulatory Commission held on March 15, 1979 in the Commission's offices at 1717 H Street, fl. W., t!ashington, D. C.
The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, cr edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinations or b'eliefs.3 fio pledding or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
1921 015
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA i
i 2 i NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMPiISSION l
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4 Staff Discussion of SECY-79-82 Communications With the Commission l
5 6
(OPen to Public Attendance) 7 8
Commissioners' Conference Room i
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1717 H Street, N.W.
Washington, D.
C.
j 10 l
Thursday, March 15, 1979 i
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12 i
i The Comnission met, pursuant to adjournmert, at j
13, I
'l 11:30 a.m.,
Joseph Hendrie, Chairman of the Commission, 14 i
i 15l presiding.
j 16 PRESENT:
17 Chairman Hendrie 18 Commissioner Gilinsky i
i Commissioner Kennedy Commissioner Bradford l
yg mm ssioner Ahearr.e 20 ALSO PRESENT:
21 22 l
L.
G ssick l
J.
Hoyle T.
Erigelhardt f
23 i
J.
Fitzgerald 24 [i R* Mi 9"
i H.
Denton J.
Davis 1921 016
_ lI 23 W.
Dircks S.
Levine R.
Budnit f
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t 2
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l ll PROCEEDINGS 1
i 2 f CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If we could conve,ne on the l
3 l matter of Staf f Communications with the Commission, I
4 Paper 79-82 which recommended implementation c f some 5
recent provisions in the law.
I trink there were several 6
concurrences.
7 Commissioner Bradford did not concur and suggested i
8 that it would be useful to have some discussion, which l
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Actually, I think it was l
10 Vic who suggested the discussion.
I agree with him.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, whenever we nave a belief 12 by one of the Commissioners that some discussion would be l
13.. useful, why that is certainly all that is needed to key a li i
l 14,
meeting of such.
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15; Lee, w uld you like to outline the provision of 16 law and just very briefly what is recommended in the paper i
t and then we can move on.
j 17 i
MR. GOSSICK:
Right.
I can go through it very 18 i
19
.quickly, Mr. Chairman.
As everyone is very familiar, the Energy 20 i i
Reorganization Act of '74, in Section 209 provides that the y
l' directors of three statutory offices, NRR, NMSS and Research,
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1 23 '
may communicate with or report directly to the Commission 24 [ as he deems it necessary to carry out his responsibilities.
i N w, particularly in Section 209 (b) the same Act 25 i
i921 017 i
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' states that "... the Executive Director shall not limit the l
2 [i authority of the director of any cortponent organization ti
'l 3 4 provided for in the Act..."
the ones I just named, to -
i 4
communicate or to report directly to the Commission when 5 I such..."
again "..
director of a component or organization l
l deems it necessary to carry out his responsibilities."
6 7
Now, the Authorization Act of 1979, Public Law 8
95. mended this provision by adding the words "...not-l 9
l withstanding the preceding sentence, each such director i
10 jl shall keep the Executive Director fully and currently d
11 informed concerning the content of all such direct i
12 communications with the Commission..." an ' by "such direct 13 communications" it refers back to the matter of when it is d
14 3 necessary in the eyes or in the mind of a director of a 1
1 15 g component organization as necessary to carry out his
,i 16 ll responsibility, b
17 h Now, in amending this section, the Congress and 18 the Senate report,95-848 said that" "Although the amendment l
19 itself only applied to the three offices with statutory ll i
20 [ access to the Commission, it is expected that this precedure j
21 d; will be to all administrative staf f units.
It is expected I
4 22 ) tha t this will be a useful steo in imoroving the management l
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23 of the NRC operations."
24 Now, in the paper that I sent down on the 1st of d
I 25. February, 79-82 to implement this amendment, I proposed the i
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k 1y21 0I8 l
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9 1 ll following:
First, there is a memorandum from the Chairman to 2
i the EDO expressing the Commission direction that the staff's 3
business with the Commission be conducted through the EDO and 4
where that is impracticable, whatever the reason, that the EDO 5
be informed of any direct communication of a substantive j
6 i
nature.
I want to under line substantive nature.
- Here, l
7 judgment has to be exercised by the office directors, of 8
I course, and of the intention to meet with the Commissioners l
9 involving the agency.
This memo from the Chairman also would' 10 require that the EDO he advised of written communications 11 received from the Commissioners involving agency matters 12; if such communications are not routed through the EDO.
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Secondly, as a part of the paper, to clearly lay i
4 ut this provision of the Energy Reorganization Act as l
15 amended, I recommended to you, for your approval, a separate
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16 Manual Chapter 0202, entitled " Staff Communications With the 7
i Commission,"
in order to properly, I believe, separate it 18 from the matter to whom the office directors report. And yg "9 **"'
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- 20 intent of the Congress that there be a relief valve, if 21 y u will, whereby the office directors who might feel that 22 9*
E *** "9 2 3,,
I communicate directly with the Commission.
24 i l
I think another reason for separating this matter r
25 1921 019
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!' out from the individual Manual Chapters from the three 2 !!Il statutory offices is to make it clear that it is intended o
3 2 to make this relief valve, should it be needed, available 4
to all of the office directors reporting to the EDO.
5 I have discussed this paper and my recommendations 6
with the office directors, it is my understanding that there 7
is no disagreement with the basic philosophy involved, 8
however, one or two have expressed a view that they would 9
l prefer to retain in their own Manual Chapter as it now 10 i appears, these -- under the section " Supervision" the clause 11' l
from the Energy Reorganization Act as amended by the '79 l' lAuthorizationActprovidingfortheircommunicationdirectly l
13 1j with the Commission and so forth.
14 '
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why did you drop that in --- l 1
j MR. GOSSICK:
Well, I think it is more appropriate -
16 lY it is not dropping it, it is just taking it out of that 17 Manual Chapter and moving it up front in our Manual Chapter 18 series under 0202, to make sure that it is understood that 19 !
it deals with communications with the Ccmmission, and that 1
20 it doesn't have anything to do with matter of who they i
21 !. report to.
1921 020 l
il 22 q I think that in the past this has led to some h
e3.
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i d difficulties, and I just think it is more 24 l con us on an appropriate to have it pulled out as a separate matter in j
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25 h a chapter, it is very brief, as you have seen as is attached i
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l I, here, and also, to make it clear that that applies also to 1
2 any other office that reports to me.
From the very outset,
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I had it understood that all the people, if they felt that l
4 I was suppressing them or that they had a view that they
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5 wanted to take to the Commission, go ahead and do it.
It 6
is not just the three major offices, or the three statutory l
I 7
offices.
So that's the reason for taking it out.
,1 8
Ncw, the existing Manual Chapters are the proposal 9
for taking it out of the existing Manual Chapters.
As I 10 have said, one or two of the office directors, and they can 11 speak for themselves, feel that they would like to see it f
12 retained. there.
13 :
COMMISSIOUER AHEARNE: Lee, in the transfer forward I
14 '
.jp 0202, did you retain that language, "... the director may 15 communicate with, when he deems it necessary to carry out..."?i l
i 16 MR. GOSSICK: Yes, sir.
0202 -- have you got it ther' 17 Fine.
It is right under Objectives:
" Provide 18 for the implementation of the section in the 209 Act as 19 amended..."
there's the whole thing, as amended by the i
20 Authorization Act of '79.
l 21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, you are quoting the 22 Commission's implementation.
I was finding it -- I didn't 23 find ---
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MR. GOSSICK: The provision in the act is quoted t
25l,thereexactly.
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1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, no.
I understand that, d
2 !! All I was saying is that in staff communication with the 3
Commision, the responsibilities list the advising of the I
4 EDO.
It doesn't have that particular phrase' consistent 5
with "... the director may communicate," and I was wondering, 6
was there any particular reason why it didn't?
7 MR. GOSSICK: Well, this, of course, applies to --
8 i Well, I think I see what you mean.
l l
9 l This is from 209 (b) where it talks about my not 13 being able to limit such communications ---
11 '
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
12
. MR. GOSSICK:
There would be no difficulty, il 13 j certainly of adding that or pointing that in another part ll l
14 ij 209 that each of the three office directors have that, but 15 I thought that this ---
l 16 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, all I was pointing ou 17 j is that you had taken out that particular sentence from i'
18 each of the individual office manuals.
i 19 MR. GOSSICK:
Right.
i 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And it never reappeared as 21 j a responsibility anywhere else.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Where does it reappear?
l Il 23 I I thought you said you had transferred this to another place.
ti 24 L MR. GOSSICK: Well, I guess in our view, it is O
25 covered by ---
921 022 l
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The quote of the ---
this quote in here, where it says:
2 MR. GOSSICK:
3 i "The Executive Director shall perform such functions..." and.
4 so forth.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It says in implementation of 6
Section 209 (b).
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Can you guide me to that?
I 8
MR. SOSSICK:
It is Enclosure 2 of the paper.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
It says ---
l 10 MR. GOSSICK:
Now, there is a Footnote, j
t 11 Commissioner Ahearne, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Where does it say that?
12,
13 '
I'm sorry, I'm ---
f 14 l MR. GOSSICK: Right down under " Objectives" where it !
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is in single-space ---
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16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It's Enclosure 2, Vic.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The first page of Enclosure i
18 2, Vic.
Chapter 0202.
l 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And where does it ---
l 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's the middle of that 21 quote.
l l
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I see.
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23 l MR. GOSSICK: But to your point, it would be simple i
24 enough if you wanted to expand the Footnote there that points I
25 ' out that it specifically established -- the Reorganization Act 1921 023
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specifically established these three offices, and as per Paragraph so and so -- but I thought it was redundant, maybe i
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ll 3,i not, f
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, the Congress paid 5
particular attention to it, I would think ---
i 6
MR. GOSSICK:
It can be added.
I 7 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, my only point was, 8
Lee, that under the " Responsibilities" you had an expansion ll 9 i of three points which picked up the last sentence of hat 10 o quoted section.
11!!
MR. GOSSICK: Yes.
l 12 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And there was no fourth j
13 point tha't picked up the middle sentence.
And I was just 14!,askingwhy.
I l
i 15 j MR. GOSSICK:
I'm not sure I perceive exactly 16 1 what your problem is.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The problem is:
If I look 18,' at " Responsibilities,"
a, b, and c on page two ---
Il MR. GOSSICK: Right.
j 19'li 20 !j COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
-- they really refe-to the
}!11 "no twithstanding" the preceding sentence, each such 21 J
2 2 ;; director shall keep the Executive Director fully and I
23 ] currently informed concerning the content of all direct 24 '
communications with the Commission."
.i MR. GOSSICK: Right.
1921 024 25 h
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i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
There is no "O" which l
1 2 ij addresses the preceeding sentence.
The director can l
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j communicate with or report directly to the Commission when -- ;
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if necessary to carry out his responsibilities, and it was 5 I i that sentence which had been deleted from each of the l
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office director sections.
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MR. GOSSICK:
Yes.
i 8
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And it would just seem to 9 lbeconsistent.
If quoting the section was going to be enough 10 i B,
and C and so it would have
! and you didn't have to have A, i
11 seemed appropriate to put in a "D" under " Responsibilities"
.l 12 l that also ---
1 1
13 MR. GOSSICK: That repeated what is in there ---
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
i
_i lb j MR. GOSSICK:
Although, I would really -- I guess j
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16 l that almost should be "A" and the rest of them follow, that i
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is ---
18 !
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay. Well, whatever.
19 ]
MR. GOSSICK:
I see your point, or as I say ---
l' 20 !
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Put it in that way rather than Ii 2 1 ;l Footnote it.
'i t
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
I was just asking 23,]thequestion, it seemed to be consistent ---
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you, Lee.
You 1
25 said something about a proposed memo that the Chairman.had j
i921 025
k It d
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-l signed saying that basically the staff's business would be 4
2 } run through the Executive Director, except, and you used ii 3
the word " impracticable. "
I guess I don' t see it bere, but h
I 4
what did you mean by that?
i 5 !
MR. GOSSICK: Well, the intent of the Act, as in i
6 !
the legislative history, that provision is in there, as I I
hsay, this is sort of a relief valve or to prevent somebody 7
l fl in the position of the 2DO or whatever and was successful, 8
i 9
i' which is another question, of suppressing any officer i
10. director's views anc isolating that from the Commission.
ll 11 1 That's what this whole thing, I think is saying.
!l 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, what are we talking
.l 13 - about? Ar'e we talking about the presentation of formal l
14 Commission papers, or are we talking about ---
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l 15 j MR. GOSSICK:
No.
.i 16 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- notes or are we talking l
?
o i
17 ll about communications, or are we talking about telephone i
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18 ll calls?
What are we talking about?
i' il 19ll MR. GOSSICK: This whole subject is wrapped around i!
i o
20 h the business of-one, who do the office directors report I!
21 to?
And I'll give it to you straight, looking ahead to the l
l 22 day when I'm going to be making out the Effectiveness Reports i!
23 - or appraisals on all of the of fice directors.
I think that I
24 will help remove some of the question that we h' ave had in the 25 Past.
It hasn't been clear, early on in the Commission, who 1921 026 n
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[ they reported to.
1 In the initial delecation it was clear l!
2 11 what mv responsibilities were, who I raported to and who l
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~I was responsible for directing, but it didn't get into the 1
4 l matter in the delegations to the directors of those offices, 5
who they reported to.
6 The provision in the Act that has been here all 7 i along, has been used by some as an argument that says,
" Hey, 8
I don' t have -- you know, I coordinate with."
In fact, that 9
was the fight that we had over the chapter on the NRR was 10 he wanted it to say he coordinates with the EDO rather than to,
i 11l report so.
I 12!
So in an attempt to get this straightened out in 13
'77, just before Marc left, there was this cuestion over thos 14 !
Manual Chaptera and that issue was more or less, I thought, 15 put to bed.
16 The other events that have happened, of course, 17 '
pointed out that there still was a problem as to the matter 18 of the responsibility of keeping the "Do informed of 19 substantive, and I underline and put in capital letters.
t 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, what does that mean, f
i f
21
" substantive conversations"?
22 MR. GOSSICK:
Things.that have to do with policy 23 matters or that affect the agency operation in a substantive i
b 24 way, and here, judgment obviously has to be applied.
It is II 25 l up to the office directors and to me.
1921 027 4
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l 1 Y COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Could you give me an example 3
I 2
of something on one side of the line and something on the 1
3 other side of the line?
I MR. GOSSICK:
Well, sure, I mean, a phone call 4
5 from you or any of the Commissioners to the staff asking 6
for information or going on a trip, give me some background i
7 information, or just -- something that is to help get the 8
job done.
Obviously, I don' t want to be in the way of that, 9
I dcn't necessarily get involved if it isn' t something that 10 isn't important.
I 11 On the other hand, if there is a task laid on the 4
12'j staff by one of the Commissioners and it involves a certain
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13 ' expenditure of resources, I think it is only proper that I 1
r 14 '
know about it, and that the office director know about it, 15' by the way.
And in some cases that is not happening.
And I
16 'i I think the intent ---
I I
l 17 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, are you not being I
I 18 kept informed now?
19 I
MR. GOSSICK:
I am by ---
t 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I mean, what is the prcblem l
21 to which this is the solution?
t i
22 l MR. GOSSICK: Well, the problem, as I told you, l
23 ', was really back to this provision in the law and the matter 1
if' 24 that it has caused, cr the situation that it has resulted in, 9
25 [ in some cases, where it isn' t clear that the EDO is to be i
l 1921 028 l
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i 1 l kept informed on important matters.
l 2 I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But the effect of this, it it I
3 i seems to me, is to constrict the flow the information from 4
the staff to the Commission.
The problem, it seems to me, 5
is not that you haven' t been in'.ormed, it is that the
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6 Commissioners are not informed.
l 7 l MR. GOSSICK: There is certainly no intend here to I
l 8
restrict -- and I don't think to hold up in any way, the flow i
9 i c:f information from the staff to the Commission.
10 li COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But it seems to me it has j
I 11 that effect.
It is hard to say just how ---
i l
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, let me try a different E
i 4
I a
13 'i example,.because the kind of thing that concerned me in non-14 / concurring:
supposing you had a situation in which an 15 '
office director felt that a recommendation of some importance 16 i was being held up at the EDO's level, perhaps because another!
I i
u 17 ;l office did not agree with it or perhaps because you didn't, I
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18.! but in any case that it had been there a while and was l
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19 l urgent and he felt the Commission ought to know about it.
h 20 ] Now, we have an open door policy, of course, that extends i
21 theoretically to everyone down to the GS-1 level.
It seems n
i 22 as though this would, take the office directors, it would b
2 3 ;' leave them the only people in the agency who could not i
24 " communicate with the Comcirsioner without having to ---
d 25 "
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why does it prohibit the cuy from
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1971 029 i
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1 communicating with the Commission.
1 2
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Because he has got to a
3 l inform Lee if he is doing it.
4 (Simultaneous voices.)
5 !
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
-- issues within his l
6 l responsibility.
I 7 i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That's right.
I 8
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess I don't see 9
anything -- I think the fundamental -- as least as I perceive 10 the.. fundamental issue to be is:
Does the EDO, is he the 11 !
agent that we, as a Commission, say:
"It is your respon-l 12 l sibility to run the day-to-day operation of the agency, so I
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13 1 those office directors, therefore, work for you."
That's J
14 really the fundamental issue, and the ---
15f COMMISSIONER BRADiqRD: That is a fundamental l
16 !
issue, but even if the answer to that is "yes ou still i
17 !
have to say:
"... and therefore do we want to make them i
P 18 i the only people in the agency who cannot communicate something 19 to the Commission,"
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don't understand why you say, 21 "can't communicate with the Commission"?
22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, let me finish the 23,
- sentence, The sentence ends:
... without informing 24!! the EDO on a fully and currently basis." 1921 030 P
d 25 "
MR. GOSSICK: Commissioner 3radford, if I may
.iI 16 c
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C e
1
- address that very poin., that is exactly the kind of a l
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2 0 situation where I would think this thing would come into i!
3 play, and he is certainly free, and any office director knows 1
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4 ;
that if he thinks I'm sitting on something unreasonably, he It 5 I is free to make that view known, and I don' t know that it t
6 has to be before, but I want to know about it afterwards, at 7,' least, and I don't mean a month afterwards.
But ---
I i
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, I would assume, in i
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9 i
fact, that before he took that step ---
i 10 l MR. GOSSICK:
In most cases, I think would, but i
l 11' I can visualize sitations where they might feel compelled, I
16 i
12 o and maybe again, maybe I'm out of town or sick or something, i
l 13 and it happens, but I would want to know about it rather than
,l 14 j go on for months without knowning that such communication i
15 had taken place.
l d
r 16 ll COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Look, Lee, you are familiar l
17 with the burmiucraqr the words you have got here in the draf t I
memo from the Chairman that he advise you
-- that office r
18 l 19 directors advise you of their intentions.to meet with the Ccr.nissicners on matters involving the agency.
That is bound to inhibit 20 l 21 communications between the staff and the Commission.
It i
22 can have no other effect but to do that, and the problem we 1
23 ll had in the last few days was that there wasn't enough 0
24l: communication between the staff and the Commission, and betweer 25 you and the Commission.
And I don' t think we want to set up s
1921 031
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l.
Al l
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1 p' another bottleneck here.
2 i!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Which problem, the five plants?
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: The five plants.
3 i t
i 4
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's not correct.
The staff, 5 l the EDO and Mr. Denton did what they should do, they talked l
6 to me.
And if you have any problem with the Friday af ter-l 7
noon communication situation, I invite you to criticize me, 8
but the staff did what they could do.
I f
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let me suggest that I have i
10 no quarrel with what they did at all. They did what was quite I
11 right. They did 20 percent of what was quite right.
I 12 It is not true staff did what was quite right in 13 l; its entir'ety by addressing only the Chairman of the Commission.
II 14 ;
There are five Commissioners and the law says each one of them i
I 15 is a 20 percent stockholder in the company.
I intend to I
i 16 get my 20 percent's worth, and let there be no mistake about i
17 that.
I 18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, I ---
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Harold asked me specifically if 19 he should call the other Commissioners and I said, in view of 20 l
21 the state of information and the time of day and day of the i
22 !
week, let's wait until we know what is going on Monday 1
23 morning.
h 24 ;
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: In that case, I presume that
- l 25 { Harold is not going to ask that question again. He will know I
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wh'at to do in the future.
i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, these officers report l
2 3
to the Commission as a whole.
I think that's an important l:
f, distinction.
4 l
5 l'
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Let me suggest ---
i 6 i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Vic, I think there really i
7 q is a mixture of Commissioners though, because in that
'l 8 h particular case, you weren't faced with the issue -- I'm not
!i 9 a saying what should have happened then, all I'm saying is that
- l f
10 that is different than this issue, because in the case you j
i 11 ] are mentioning, the office director recognized it was a l,
12 serious issue, went simultaneously to both Lee and to the j
i l
13 Commission as represented by the Chairman. So that isn' t t
14 the issue that is really here.
i 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I don't want to replay 1
16 one, but I just simply raise it as an example of what the r
17 l communications problem is.
It isn't that the EDO isn't 18 ? being informed ---
l' lt 19 'i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What is ceing pointed out is 20 that it is not a valid example.
There may very well be i
21 others ---
i 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think it is a valid 23 exanple.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
--- We may have complaints about 25 that one, but as John says, it isn't the case that is before 1921 033
N h
19 t
i 9
l the house.
2 'j COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, look, the EDO was h
3 informed, he reports to the Commission.
It seems to me that e
4 he has an obligation to inform the Commission.
5 Now, what we are talking about is channeling more 6
things through the EDO, and the question I'm raising is:
What I
7 is that going to do for communication with the Commission.
8 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don't think we are talking l
9 about channeling anything more through the EDO ---
10 MR. GOSSICK:
The standard practice here is --
11 Look, this thing was confused enough and I didn't mean to j
i 12 h use the word " confused" in a derogatory sense, but when l
l 13 d Harold called me on this thing, it was clear that there was
.I I
14 !
a lot of question about it, and I didn't want to take -- and 15 I normally don't, I asked Davis to call you when there is 16 some operation going on where he's the guy that has got the l
17 l facts directly.
I want to know about it, obviously.
I don't 18 intend, and I shall not, get in the middle and say, only I 19 now can call the Commissioners and tell them accu : this 20
! drill, whatever is going on.
I think you expect to get it
,l l
a 21 y directly from the principal that is most involved, most j
ll 22 il knowledgeable on the details of the subject.
b 23 ]
So I don't intend to stand there like a valve and i
P 24 q say only I can now call the Commissioners. I don' t intend to 25 l!l change the routine one iota, and I don't know -- I understand n
l 1921 034 i
li Y
20 f
i 1, what the communication problem from the standpoint of lack 2
of generally keeping the Commission informed, that is, where I
e 3 1 this matter is in issue.
I certainly have not held up or i
put the valve or plug on any request for information down 4
f 5 !
into the staff.
It flows quite ---
i 6,'
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I think there are examples where tnings simply -- staff members or office l
7 i
8 heads feel they have to coordinate or check with your office 1
9 or get your signature to send something up, there are l
10ll! delays involved.
Now ---
!I 11 !!
MR. GOSSICK:
I don't think that delay, if you will i
d 121 examine it, is an unreasonable delay in any event.
There i
n 13 isn't a p'iece of mail that stays in my office more than ei 14 l 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />, I can guarantee.
1 15 l COMMISSIONER AREARNE: Vic, in a way that is the I
I 16 ' 1ssue.
I I
17,
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I think there are There is some head shaking out there, but 18 l some examples.
19 at any rate, I think ---
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Look, Vic, if there are a li!i couple of offices that disagree out there, it is the EDO's 21 e
22 function to try to thrash it'out and see, indeed, if there E" e 23 ;i are reasonable accommodations that will put the staff all 24 together on a paper, or whether in fact it needs to come upwi l'
the differing views separated out.
i!
1921 035 F
3 ll t
I l
4 21
!i i'
1 1
Now,if you propose that everybody in the agency
,i 2
is just going to address a paper on every subject that is i
l 3 i of interest to them, willy-nilly to the Commission, I won't 4
have it.
You can't run an agency that way.
That's what j
5 this office is suppose to do out there is to coordinate i
6 that stuff.
i 7
' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I guess that sounds 8
like a good idea.
9
'l We are talking here about conversations or I
i 10 l intentions to have conversations.
i 11!
MR. GOSSICK: When it deals with the kind of matters [
12 l that are, addressed in this clause in the Act, anditsayswhen!
i 13 j they are necessary in the view of the office director, to j
14 ;l carry out his responsibility.
15' Now, I'm not interested in any other things, 16, social conversations or stuff that is just of routine nature, f I
i 17 When somebody comes down or proposes to come to a Commissioner l l
18 with an issue where I'm supposed to be involved in trying 19 l to bring the staff together, or get for the Commission a
{
20 ;
position, if there is a strong feeling on his part that he 21 wants to make his view known separately at any time, he i
i 22 l can do that.
That's the intent of this legislation.
h 23 ]
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The intent of the paper here is 24 l\\ simply that the EDO be informed when significant contacts l
il 25
- go on.
l 1921 036 i
'i t
i.
o il 22 1
Now, if there is particular language in the r
s 2
proposed documents that appear to go beyond that or not to 3
be the best way to frame it, why we don't have-any objection 4
about fixing language, I must say ---
I 5 l MR. GOSSICK:
I know, none at all.
i i
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
My concern ---
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- but let us understand the 8
thrust here.
l' I
9 i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
My concern is different 10 from that.
It is that I don't think that the office l
11:
directors, as I say, it may even require changing the I I 12 j legislation that Congress has just enacted, but I don't think
'l
~.
i 13 l that they ought to be foreclosed from ccming to the Commission:
14 s and conceivably from coming to the Commission under 15 circumstances in which it would be our choice to let the t
l 16,
EDO know what the concern was, rather than that they should i
Il l
17 h. be compelled either by law or by Ccmmission policy, (a) to i
1 8 "i: notify them of their intent or (b) to tell him that they l
l 19 ll have been down here and talked to one or more Commissioners, i
u 20 h. unless we ourselves feel that further closing of the loop i
1 21 j; should take place.
il COMMISSIONER AHEJ.dNE :
Peter, do you view the 22g!
I 23. office directors as working for the EDO?
d 24 a COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, for the time being, 25 " the Manual Chapter, I think, makes it pretty clear that in 6.
n
il u
it 23 1
1 1
. cst situstions the Commission has indicated that things 2
- l. are channeled through the EDO.
U COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm asking:
Do they work for 3
h; 4
him?
!i 5 f COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I'll answer that.
~'
i l
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, I have not really sat 6
l down and thought about whether ---
7 t
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would say in a limited 9 il sense.
There are certain questions which involve the agency ll 1 0 i! as a whole, there are administrative matters, there are 11 11 budgetary matters or matters which involve more than one i.
12 :l of fice which you look to the EDO ---
1 1 3 ',
' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
How about in their role as 14 ] line management.
I 15 "
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would say no.
We don't l
I 16 ) tell Lee to decide on questions having to do with these 17 ] five plants.
We don't look to Lee to decide on matters I!
18 ll within Saul's purview, concerning the usefulness of certain 0
I 19 ! projects.
But we do lock to Lee to -- for a certain class t
l 20,; of activities and this is a peculiar kind of agency, and t
21 l1 each of these offices are repositories of special skills l
22 j and we look to them for matters that deal with these skills.
ii Those skills are not available in the office of the EDO.
23 ll CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's a facinating theory.
I 24 a
25 L would suggest that if you happen to be the ccmmander of an i921 038 e
i i
,r i
24 l
1 army, why the chief of the mortar platoon, you know, will 2. report directly to you because obviously, the intermediate i
3
' command levels don't have the mortar expertise to deal c
4 with it.
i 5 j' COMMISSIONE7. GILINSKY: Well, the army is a different lsortofanimal,butyes,---
6 7
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Or any other sort of institution.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, for example, Lee, did
!i 9
j you make the decision on the five plants ---
10 '
MR. GOSSICK:
No.
I 11 '
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- before the Commission?
l 12 Well, there you are.
13 MR. GOSSICK: I don' t believe that Mr. Denton made i
14 a decision on the five plants.
He came down here before r
15 ' the assembled group and then it was decided right here.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, but the recommendation i
17 was from him to us.
l 18 '
MR. GOSSICK: There was a paper -- because of the l
s 19 ' press of time ---
t 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think he made the decision:.
I 21 MR. GOSSICK: Pardon?
i 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, I think he did make the
.I 23 decision, for his office.
24 Now, you can run it differently.
You can --
25 there is another way of running this agency.
You can say, 1921 039
'i h
F d
'5 1 E Lee, snould these plants be closed or not, but we don't do 2
tha t, and I don' t think you proposed to do that.
1 3 d COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Vic, I don't think that P
4 4 ;
that's the issue.
l l
I 5 l MR. GOSSICK: You are going to have to find a i
6 l pretty rare bird that sits in that seat if he is going to 7
be able to answer every question with authority across the i
8 i board ---
'l b
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, except in the army 10 you have to do that.
i I
11 MR. GOSSICK:
Except in the army it doesn' t work 12 that way either, Victor, I have been in the Air Force, 13 and I have worked along sne lines that we are talking about 1
14 j here for a good part of my life.
I 15 l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I recognize those years l!
16 ;l of experience is highly qualifying, but Victor, it doesn't u
17 l work like that.
i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I withdraw that.
13 lY 19 j MR. GOSSICK: I've had program directors ---
li 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I join Lee and Dick in ---
21 ]
MR. GOSSICK: I've had people working for me in
'l 221: charge of a major program where it was clearly understood 4
23 1 that at any time, if they had to they could go whistling past 24 me and my boss, a four star level, past the Chief of Staf f
!I 25 h of the Air Force and right to the Secretary of Defense.
il 1921 040
!o
i!
ll t
j' 26 i
1 i Now, he damned well better be smart enough to touch base 2
on che way up, if he can, if time permits, but more j
u 3
importantly, he very well better make sure that everybody l
i 4
knows where he has been on the way back.
And this is not l
t f
5 an unusual situation.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's the only way an 7
organization can function.
The alternative is anarchy.
l 8
MR. GOSSICK:
Or is all tied up in bureaucracy and I
e 9
i nothing ever happens.
l i
i l
10,
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's right.
That's what I 11 l1 consider anarchy.
I considered tied up bureaucracy to be the i
1 i
12 :l closest thing to anarchy.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Hot-; did you all ever 14, bring yourselves to vote for the open-door policy?
.I 15 l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I don't think there is 4
i 16 l any inconsistency.
l t
l 17 '
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
There is nothing that has been li 18 said here which is inconsistent th it.
l 19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, it says that people l
i q
20ll can go levels above the level that they are at and come h
213 back down and not report to anybody on the way up and not i
22 " report to anybody on the way down.
i 23 '
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is.a standard operating 24 procedure.
1921 041 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The open-door policy -- Jesus.
1 D
ll
(
l'
,1 1
27 I'
1 L COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I'm not suggesting -
i Nl this would be standard either ---
l 2
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Peter, look ---
[
3 4
]
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let me finish.
I'm 5 I suggesting that there may be situations in which. office i
6 directors will feel that they have something that ought l
to be brought to a Commissioner's attention or to the 7
i 8
Commission's attention, and for one reason or another they I
9 i would find it difficult or impossible to do that if they i
i 10 ] had to touch base with the EDO on the way, perhaps because,
'll I as Lee indicated before, he plants to fill out their il 12 j rating charts at some point, and I'm saying that I would want i il 13 them to be able to do that.
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Let me assert one thing --
a 15 two things.
16 i First, the extent that Mr. Gossick does fill out l!
1 17.i the rating charts, whatever they may be called, for the I i 18 ! office directors, it is my assumption that is in all such l
l 19 l systems, seniors will be reviewing that and that is us.
20 j MR. GOSSICK: Certainly, i
i 21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Secondly, if was mentioned I
22 !
that an office director might wish to bring a matter to the 23 ' attention of a Commissioner.
Now, let me be very clear, 11 24 [!
what I said a few minutes ago, that this is a 20 percent 2 5 f.
stockholding operation, and anything that an office director
'i li 1921 042 n
'I h
i!
il 28 i
1, fecls important enough Lo bring to the attentied of a -
1 2
E, Commissioner, he will bring it to the attention of_ Commissioner 4
L i
3 i: all five of them. And to the extent that that's not true, l'
h 4
]I'llseeklegislationtobesureitis.
g I
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I tend to agree with that.
l 6
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Peter, I think the open door
'l 7 ] thing is a difference in kind from what we are talking about li 8
il in the Manual Chapter.
f
,l, The thrust of the open-door policy is that an 9
1 0 [, i n d i v i d u a l i n t h e a g e n c y, at any level, including office 11 ] directors, who disagree with a policy, an action, personal 12 or otherwise, who wants to bring it to the attention of 13 somebody up the line, including Commissioners, and who 14 feels that there may be a personal jeopardy in so doing, is 15 offered whatever confidentiality the system is capable of i
n 16, producing in bringing that up the line.
17 Now, I must say, if an office director feels g
18 [I personally jeopardized in letting the EDO know that he has 19 ' either been to talk about a subject with the Commission or i
20 [ is going to, why then I will class that as an open-door
- 21. policy and say that what we are talking about here doesn't 22 prevent him coming and talking in private.
23 I think what we are talking about here is the 24 conduct of the normal business of the agency ---
25 COMMISSICNER BRADFORD: As to that, I have no problem.
1921 043 p
ll I
t i
il I
(
29 r
I, i
C CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And in that sense it seems to I
ll 1
i 3
i 2 !: me that it is very difficult to run a shop without trying II I
3 l to keep the staff headquarters out there informed about what's t
4 I going on.
I 5 I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I mean, to the extent that 6
this picks situations where memos haven't been routed to all 7
the places to which they are relevant and that sort of thing, 8
that's fine.
9 i I have, I guess, the same problem with what Dick l
10 and John just indicated in terms of its implications, for 11 the open-door policy, that is, should people on the staff 12 l!; feel that they cannot, in fact, for the open-door policy,
\\
13 h come to one Commi.ssioner without coming to all five.
I
~
I l
14 '
hadn't understood the policy worked that way.
l 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Peter, I think there is, 16 again, the distinction.
Joe's distinction was the one that 17 I understood the open-door policy as applying to, in that l
I l
18 context versus a question of disagreement with the policy i
f 19 of personal jeopardy involvement, I don't think there is any j
i 20 restriction of to whom such an individual goes.
On l
21 h substantive agency matters, I entirely agree with both Lee's 22 position and Dick's position.
If it is an organization k
23 " that is going to run, it runs with a clear line of authority. j I
And if Lee is running that side of -- the operating side 24 i
i 25 h of the agency, the office directors report to him and work
'l
)921 044 1
ll f
l 30 1 E through him.
I don't think anyone who is out there in El
- 5. the agency has too much confusion about what that means.
2 l
li 3
!jJ The same way, though, that when that information H
4 passes from Lee upwards past that point, these are now j
i 5
substantive agency issues, I think it is five of us who get 6
that information.
That's ---
7 l
COfiMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But how do you separate 8
the open-door communications from substantive ---
9 COMMISSIONER KENN2DY:
Let me suggest, gentlemen.
10 lItaI If we are making a mockery of the concept of cpen-door, what 11 ] we are talking about is the senior officials of the agency, 12 jll for God's sake.
Open-door policy throughout the government, l
13 ', as I have understood it, low these past 20 years, was to make a
14 l sure that those who were f ar down in the organization, who 15 i couldn't possibly make their views known and get it through 0
16 ;, bureaucracy because it would be impeded, it was to provide v
li 17 ij a mechanism for them to do it.
It wasn't to take the i
18 d agency heads and give them the opportunity to shoot off 19 ;
their mouth.
These are the most responsible people in the 20ji organization.
They are the people to whom our own authorities d
21 J have been delegated directly.
Open door?
22 ;!
I would suggest that if a senior official of the b
231 agency has a problem so serious and he believes the open-door 24 is appropriate, it is a matter that he ought to be taking up 1
25 i with the five heads of the agency.
And he would be very, very ll 1921 045 u
t i!
't 31 1 i
' remise if he did not do so.
Let us not make a mockery of the l 3
2 i open-door policy.
It is an important concept and one which l
3 I
hwehaveassiduouslyavoidedcompromising.
Let us not do so 4 :
l
,. now.
5 I i
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, from my own part, I l'
6 just don' t agree with that statement of it.
I 7
CRAIRMAN HENDRIE: Vic, you had a finger up?
l 8
i j
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I guess I wasn't sure I
9 1 I understood whether Dick was saying it was okay for them 10 li to come up but they had to talk to all the Commissioners, 11 i or it wasn't okay for them to come ---
l
^2 l l
1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I'm saying the open-door 13 policy is not at issue here, certainly not in my view.
If there is an open-door question which afflicts 15 i
the conscience or concerns of one of the most scnior i
i 16 l~ officials of the agency, he has an obligation to go to the I
17 other senior officials of the ager.cy, his bosses, all five 6
18 >n of them.
And if he doesn't, I don't think he ought to be 19 4
l a senior official with the agency.
The open-door policy was 20, to make it possible for one of his underlinings to get by him, 9,
if that is the word.
It wasn't -- the question of his
~~
1 22 ' getting around Lee Gossick in a case like that, all he is 23 '
going to do is say, I've got a problem, I'm going to go talk 24 to the Commissioners.
What's Gossick going to say, you can't?
5 I don' t think so.
It wouldn't do him any good if he did.
[
l921 046
I I
't 32 c
P 1
The law makes it clear that they can.
I don't know what the 2 I debate is about.
c i
li i
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I guess I thought-i 4
j this was pretty sweeping language.
You know..it is one.
5 thing to keep the Executive Director informed of the flow i
1 6
of business, and I think that properly should be, and I i
7 '
think the papers flowing back and forth between the 8
Commissioners and the offices ---
l 9
j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Vic, I don't have any 10 ? quarrel with any of that.
What's that got to do with the I
I 11 open-door policy?
12ll COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, we just put that label,
!l 13 l on direct communications with ---
i 14 "
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, don't.
That's 15 j precisely what I'm asking not be done.
'l 16 1 COMMIS3IONER GILINSKY:
Let's drop the label.
i 17 ;
Let's drop the label, h
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Don't destroy a worth while 18 l i
19 l concept by pulling under that label all kinds of otner things i
20 that don't have anything to do with it.
21 l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
But the spirit of that il 22 p concept is that people in the agency feel that there is a l
iii 23 d problem on which they need to communicate upwards can do so 3
e 24 ' in whatever manner seems to them best suited to once get u
a 25 g the problem brought upward and at the same time protect their ll l
1921 047
I I
33 i
i
?
'I
I situation.
And I don't care ---
2 j;
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Of course, that is 3 af precisely right and I can' t ---
4
!l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I don't care what you 5 !
call it, I'm tired of being interrupted, and I'm also tired j
6 i
I of long speeches.
I 7 l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: All right. So am I.
l 8
I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Good.
9 -
Once they communicate upward in whatever fashion ll i
10 i!i they choose, it is the responsibility of the people to whom I
11-] they bring their concerns to decide what happens next, and 12 -
E it is not incumbent on them.
I think this memo goes directly l 13 i, against that spirit.
f' 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Peter, those people work for 15 -
five people, not one.
a 16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
So does everybody in the i
17 t
' agency.
That's the point about the spirit of ---
18 0 i
lj COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No. The other people F
19 4 i
in the agency work for one, their boss, whoever he is down il 20 C
[
- , there.
These people have five bosses and it is different.
o 21 '!
CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Peter, is it the memo -- the I
o 22 l draf t memo that seems particularly bothersome to you ---
~3' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- rather than the language that 25 was proposed for the Manual Chapter?
l921 048 r
's
i i
I 34 j
I' i
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I have not focused i.s much l
1 a
t on the Manual Chapter.
It is the draft memo and the effect f
a 2
I 3
of absolutely closing off the office directors.
l 4
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, all right, look ---
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I also have ---
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me go in the following l
l 7
direction.
l 1
I 8
We have already had comment about the proposed 9 ll Manual Chapter language, which is that under the proposed n
10 new section there would be an explicit, where it says A, B,
I 11l and C, there would be a D, or maybe as you said, that one 12f ought to.be A and the others slide down one, an explicit i
13 [
recognition of that part of the law that says the office 14 directors in the performance of their duties can get to 15 the Commission, and putting that in, sounds to me like a good 1 i
16 i idea.
l I
17 There was -- some of the office directors, Lee 18 l said, felt that in their own chapters, rather than delete 19 that line, that they would just as soon see it in there, 20 l other things being equal, even though there was a new chapter i
21 i that also talked directly to those things, and I must say, t
22 I wouldn't have any objection to it appearing both places.
li 23 f MR. GOSSICK: I would prefer it would not appear 24 ;
in the " Supervision" section.
They want it in the Manual 25 ! Chapter, but somewhere else other than on the matter of who 1921 04o
t p
I dl I
l 35 t
I 1 j, they report to.
I think that's an important point.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What is the point?
f 9
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. Well, let ---
4 4
ll COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Could you just explain it?
'l 5
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, let me get to that in 6
a minute because I want to get on and get the rest of the I
7 l thought in mind.
I 8
Now, that is the point that we then ought to discuss I
9 ll and straighten out, but it seems to me the first one is clear. ;
t 10 j!
Now, the third point would be, if the implementing 11 l! memoranda seems to nave less or more, maybe, language that 12 ll i
j' everybody would find completely helpful, I think good, let's j
13 / see if we can fix that.
And I wonder if you -- could you i
.I 14!! take O crack at -- the sort of clarification which would d
t 15 j cure 'de dif ficulty that you perceive in it, because it seems l 16 l t
i to me that in spite of the fact it has been a splendid week 17 l; for argument, and we are continuing it this morning, it is I
i 18 quite a splendid argument.
The differences may ultimately 19 ! not be that great.
l I
I l
20 p COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would be glad tt do what p
21 ;j I can with the memorandum.
I did indicate on my concurrence
.i i
22:l; sheet that as far as I was concerned I would seek the appeal il 23 4 of that particular piece of legislation.
It seems to me, as h
24 ' I say, to be an internal mancgement decision and I don't
'i 25 L think that -- I don't think that the problem, which originally h
h 1921 050
ll 4
36 S
Y i
l ll 1
q gava rise to the example which i>. used in the Senate report.
l il' 2
namely NUMEC, is any longer a valid model for the way tb 1 l
3 l
i agency functions.
The Manual Chapter, which came much latter,i 4
in the spring of '77, in any case eliminated that problem.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
If there was a problem.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
If there was a problem, 7
i righ-.
I 8
i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's see.
I don't know where 1
9 !
l that ---
10 I
l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What I'm saying is I would i
11 work on the memo to try and -- within the context of the t
12 !
law, get. rid of the main problems that I see in it, but I I
i 13 myself would also urge that the Congress reconsider that i
i 14 l provisions.
In saying that, I think I would have to 15' i
i acknowledge that I'm sure I was consulted when it went l
16
- I through and didn't then focus on the problems as I now see I
i 17 '
them.
18 I
i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me ask, what would you do 19 I
with the May '77 Manual Chapter provisions?
l 20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I have not thought a lot about that.
22 CHAIRMAN' HENDRIE :
In saying, well, why don't they 23 take the provision of the law back. Does that imply a basic 24 bchangeinthec'>nfigurationoftheEDOandtheprincipal 25 I office directo::s, in your view?
1921 051 1
l!
P
}
.7 1
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, I guess what is c
f troubling me about the law is if it can give rise to this 2
b.; memo, then it is bringing about a change that I don' t think 3
l.
4 is desirable.
I 'h, ve not focused on the Manual Chapters l
l l
t 5
and I had not thought that there was so great a problem
}
6 involved -- in the time that I have been here and ker cig the 7 !
EDO informed, that, in fact, we needed further legislation or i
8 needed a memo of this sort to the extent that memoranda to the staff or going out directly and imposing workloads that 9 i Lee doesn' t know about, I certainly agree that we ought to 10 11;I do what is necessary to bring that under control, but that's I
12 0 rather apart from congressional legislation.
13 ;
- CRAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I don't think we asked 1
1 4 '. for this provision.
As a matter of fact, I can't remember 1
15 ] being consulted about it.
4 1
MR. GOSSICK:
It came as a surprise, as far as I i
16 17 can recall, it showed up.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It popped up in the authorization Ijbilland---
19 20 j MR. GOSSICK: Ask Kevin, I think he was up there on the Hill.
21 0
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, Kevin.
What did you do that 2 2,.
i 2 3 '; for.
'li' 24 '
(Laughter) d 25 j' CRAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And it seemed to me that what it 1
1921 052 o
I II 1
r
.i, t
I 38 4
1 did was just put into the statute the thrust of the Commission; 2
decision in the spring of '77 that, in fact, the EDO was C
i 3
the principal officer who ran the staff on a day-to-day basis j 1
4
!j on the Commission's behalf.
But these inforr-? ion channels l
established by statute, as well as the informaticn channels 5 i 1
i l
established by the Commission under the open door, continued I
6 7
to be there ami operative for the sort of normal day-to-day 8 !
operation of the staff,would look to the EDO to run it and I
9 keep things coordinated.
10 So I didn't see any objection to the legislation, 11 'l and I hadn' t encountered or sensed a thought yet that there i:
1 2 ;! w a s a f e e l i n g, Peter, on your part that that basic configur-13 ation for' the organization of the agency was an incorrect e
l i
14 ] one.
And it is still not clear to me that that's where vou l
l 15 j are going.
j 16 COMMISSIONER BRiiDFORD :
No, but up to now, I hadn't i:
17"l had the feeling that if one of the office directors really I
18 ] felt they had a serious problem with the EDO's office, and il 19 h I don' t mean anything personal ---
l ll r
20 ;j CHAIRMAN HENDRI",:
And wanted to come and talk b
i 21, privately.
d i
22 ]
CCMMISSIONER BRADFORD: -- And wanted to come and a
23 ] talk privately, that they couldn' t do tha t.
t 24 ll i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, if we take the view ---
n 2 5 l' MR. GOSSICK: But this doesn' t change that.
g i921 053 oI-l l!
~
Il A
39 p
i i
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I know, but they wanted 1
2 to come and talk privately, even without having themselves l[' to take the. burden of going back and reporting to you on 3
]theconversation.
It seems to me that there are circum-4 5
stances under which that really should be the decision of 6 ll the Commission, Commissioners that the of fice director ll 7
talks to, and not be a separate burden on the office directors d
8 h themselves.
'll 9
j MR. GOSSICK: I guess I find it very difficult to
. i, 10 a stretch my imagination to where I'm such a problem on some I,
11 ! point that that would never ---
J 12 l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That's why I tried to say 13 I didn't'want to personalize it to you, Lee.
The concern woul 14 _ be the same if we were just looking at ---
15,
MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, okay.
16 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why can't we take the view 17 that the Chairman just expressed, that this, in effect, 18 : reflected or confirmed cnanges that were already made, and 19 ' why do we need to make any further changes.
Are we not in 20 compliance with the law now?
MR. GOSSICK: There is nothing at all on the books 21 22 l that recognizes it as f ar as NRC is concerned.
Sure, there is a phrase in the law, but I think, as in most other cases, 23 we try to reflect the provisions of the law.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, there is something.
25 1921 054
'i li b
40 i
II 1 P,; It says in the Manual Chapters the principal officers of
?jtheCommissionreporttoyou, and I presume that they will 2
3 il i
send you copies of -- Well, certain things just get routed 4
l to your office, other things you properly ought to get 5
l copies of and ---
6 I l
MR. GOSSICK:
I thought you were asking why did 7 I I write this paper in the first place.
8 l
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Right.
Yes, I am, since ----
9 i I
MR. GOSSICK: Because the law needs ;o be reflected 10 in the Manual Chapters.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, but as the Chairman 12 l just expressed, in effect, the law confirmed what we had 13 ) already done and are we not in compliance with the law?
14 !
MR. GOSSICK:
No, we are not.
As long as we have 15 got one part of the law ---
16 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that the view of the 17 General Counsel?
18 MR. GOSSICK: The lawyers have been through this, 19 l and right now, we are quoting in the Manual Chapter, a i
20 l provision of the Energy Reorganization Act and to leave it
'l!
silent an amendment for that act, it seems to me to be
~
22 [ lacking some where.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think ye really need to take
~4 recognition of the provision that have been enacted, and it i
25 ' does strike me as peculiar that the manual would not reflect
[
f 1921 055
e o
G i
e n
i i
i 41 l
f l
1 sli that amendment in some way or other.
I MR. GOSSICK:
I guess I don' t understand what the f
2 h
I 3 l1 objection is here, Victor.
Let me ---
l 4 [i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me tell you, because 5 I I
had you come up here and just said that you ought to I
6 i
routinely be infcrmed of matters that -- Commission papers 7
that come from the staff up through the Commission and 8
various other matters that follow in your province, that 9
i would have been all right.
Eut it seems to me you 2 ached 10.!
beyond where you should have, and I find that pretty f
11 ;
disturbing, because ---
i 12 j
. MR. GOSSICK:
In what way?
I 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, look at this draft l
14 memo for the Chairman.
" Advise the EDO of subsequent 1
1 15] conversations."
l 16 i
You are not talking about papers, you are not n
i 17 talking decisions, you are talking about conversations.
j u
l 18,! And if the intention is to neet with Commissioners.
19 i MR. GOSSICK: Isn't that communicating with the I
20 :
Commission as is addressed in the ---
I I
I 21 l, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I'll tell you. As I l
22 h understand the effect that that would have on this l!
23 j organization with what little experience I have had with it, 24 the effect th.t it would have, in my view, would be to
- I 25 l!
constrict the flow of information from the staff to the i
j j921 056
il
!?
9 H
42 e
i e
'.! Commissioners.
Nov I regard that with some concern.
c 2
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, let's fix ti.e language of l
3 i the draft memorandum.
4 l
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And I guess I'm concerned 5
that ---
6 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- If it could be read that way, l l
7 '
let's fix it.
It wasn' t intended to be a throttling 8
l directive.
i 9 l MR. GOSSICK: Absolutely not, absolutely not.
l 10 The only reason for -- I suggested ---
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Why would it have that 12 l effect, in your view, Vic?
i 13 [
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I think it is fairly f
a i
14 obvious.
i 15 MR. GOSSICK:
Eut isn' t that what the law says?
l l
6 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't think so. Look ---
l 17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It's not all that clear to 18 l me, that's why I asked.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
No, that's my problem with 20 the law.
I'm less concerned with what Lee has done than with 21 the fact that it may not be a legitimate readinc of the law.
l 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: If that's what the law i
23 says, then the law ought to be changed, okay.
I agree with I
24 ! Peter on that.
25 But it seems to me that a certain amount of comm r
)92\\ Dil
r e
i!
i f
43 h
I
'l I
sens0 is called for here.
2 i 4
[
MR. GOSSICK:
I expect to do my best to exercise 3 0 it, Commissioner Gilinsky.
l 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I want to be sure 5
that the words clearly indicate what kind of action is called,;
6 for.
7 '
MR. GOSSICK:
Mr. Chairman,-we were asked to have 8
Ii the office directors here, they have been here for most of l
9 l the morning, expressing their views.
I want to make sure i
10 i
they have an opportunity to speak if they feel there is l
11 something they want to say.
i i
12 'i
. MR. LEVINE:
I would like to say a few words.
l i
1 13"j First of all, I think -- we had a meeting in i
14 1 Lee's office of which it was my understanding that all a
15' five of us agreed that our Manual Chapter should be changed h
16 } to reflect the provisions about being able to communicate 17 with the Commission as well as keeping Lee informed.
f h
18 'l j
Harcld wasn't there, but Lee reported that Harold j
19
!q wanted it, so I want to just be sure that all five of us 20 "jj did understand that.
21 l0l I think, from listening to this conversation it
~ 2 l'1{hasbeenveryinteresting.
I think the problem is that too.
4 23 'll many words have been written that if the memo from the 24 Uq Chairman is dropped and that the new Manual Chapter is c
25 dropped, the office directors' desires are implemented, then i921 058
il
'l 44 I
l -
it would be very clear what is going on.
Lee will have, 2
in his chapter, this business about how to communicate with 0
And certainly, l 3
l the Commission and we will have our chapters.
4
' we ought to know what " keeping people fully informed" means l
5 and that would take care of that and eliminate these words 6
that people find difficult.
l 7
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Do you mean the draf t?
8 MR. LEVINE: This new chapter, 0202 or whatever it 9 l is on Staff Communications with the Commission, which 10 incorporates some of the words from your memorandum.
11, I think that could perhaps solve the problem.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You would propose to incorporate, 13 :
under the EDO and office director, existing chapters, i
14 -
recognition of the ---
15 MR. LEVINE:
Of the two laws.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, of the amended language.
17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And you have no difficulty 18 with that concept?
19 '
MR. LEVINE:
None at all.
20 And I don't feel that that would inhibit me in 21 communicating to the Commission, as I feel it does now.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But 0202 has just got the 23 same statement's that Vic and Peter were having problems with.
24 MR. LEVINE: MY difficulty is that those words in i
25 l 0202 imply other things beyond those in the law and I find 1921 059
1 i
- i I
45
\\
l n
a 1 Y some difficulty with that.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So you do have difficulties pl 3
with 0202?
4 MR. LEVINE:
That's why I suggest eliminating it l
5 i
and I sense that that's what ---
6 i
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm sorry.
You would 7
eliminate 0202?
8 MR. LEVINE:
Yes, eliminate 0202.
9 MR. GOSSICK: That was not clear in our meeting.
l 10 I
j I thought you said it should be contained in the Manual j
ll!!
,1 Chapters as now ---
i 12 't 13 'l
. MR. LEVINE:
No, no. This is something that has l
ji l
come to me since this morning.
l i
14 '
MR. GOSSICK: Oh, okay.
15,
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: So the problem is extending 16 ll q it to all other of fices, as the Act?
i 17 l' MR. LEVINE:
Put it in whatever office you want to.
I i
18 l'I j I think that's the simple way to handle it.
i 19 I
l CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Bob?
.i 20 S k
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That seems like a sensible i,
21 j approach.
2 2,'
MR. MINOGUE:
I'm not going to make a long 93 'ij, statement, but I think that the wording in the legislation
~
24 '
should be reflected in the " Supervision" section for the
-l
~S three statutory of fices and the two non-statutory of fices and f
1921 000
!l t
ih 46 I
l 7
p 9
1
, the other staff offices, I think are adequately covered 2
in describing the EDo's functions.
I don't really see a l
great need for this new section.
I object to it and it l
3
.I 4
would really effect the the non-statutory people.
I don't 5
see a great need for it.
i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
John?
l 6
l l
7 MR. DAVIS:
My impression of the paper when I I
8 l
read it, it was to bring into words the existing practice, 9
l and I have not felt at all inhibited in dealing with the 10 Commissioners.
I have routinely, sinceI'mnotastatutory--l 11 I&E's not a statutory office, have kept Lee informed, either 12l before I dealt with the Commissioners or after I had dealt wit.
i 13ltheCommissioners.
l i
14 l;l I was one, though, who felt that the wording should !
9 15 be carried into the Manual Chapter, primarily because if l
16 !
you change the wording, it may raise quesuions that there is 17 a new meaning intended.
So carry the same language from the 18 '
Act into the Manual Chapters.
But I have not, in any way, 19 ffeltinhibited,andIwillsaythis, I will be surprised if il 20 1 there is any office director, I would hope you would never 21 [i select an office director who would feel inhibited to come to 22 the Commissioners for any action, regardless of how it may l
23 offend the Executive Director.
I921 061 24 h MR. MINOGUE: Can I add to my statement, Mr. Chairman, d
h 2 5 '- that -- I appreciate John flagging that.
I have probably had i
l!
f i
0 47 ll ir 0
1 e more experience working with what, in fact, was this setup i'
2 than anybody else here, because I have been an office il 3
't director since the agency was created and always had certain 4
strings applied to me because of being non-statutory.
1 5 9 I have never felt inhibited.
There have been I
h 6 l cases where the EDO and I fully didn't agree on something, I
7 in which case he sent the paper up to the Commission with a 8
note indicating the areas where he didn't agree with me.
j It wasn't stopped, and I never felt any constraint to push 9
10, the thing on through.
I think it is a very workable process, il r.
l 11 l! and I have been doing it since the agency was formed.
12 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Harold?
13
- MR. DENTON:
I think it is an important point.
14 / I agree with Saul and my impressions would be to take my I
15: Manual Chapter, leave in the words that are being proposed,
'l' 16.l namely these words that say that I may communicate or I.
17 !! report directly to the Commission, but then follow that 18 y sentence directly with words from the Act, namely, I shall Il 19;j keep the EDO fully and currently informed at all times. That 20 would be my preference.
1921 062 0
I think if you leave the words that are, may in 21 22 the future have implications for the selection of the office e
23 l' director because then the words would read that even though i
24 y u served at the pleasure of the Commission, you are
- I 2 5 '. supervised by the ED..
2nd it leaves that question a bit i
lf.
i li il u
48 h
p I
i (hangingthereastotherelationshipbetweentheoffice 1
2 directors and the Commission and makes the EDO the supervisor i
3 i directly.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Bill?
5 MR. DIRCKS:
I'm the new boy on the block, but I 6
can see it from both angles.
Having sat in Lee's office, I l
7 can understand many of his problems.
The uncertainty, I think' 8
of what is going on.
Sitting in my current seat, I think 9
Harold has expressed my view about getting it into the 10 Manual Chapter under that " Supervision" heading that Harold j
11 mentioned.
[
i 12 l CFAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Other comments?
f I
13 d MR. GOSSICK:
Just let me say, I have no -- this i
f 14,
is not a crucial point to me if it is agreed that it belongs 15 {' here as long as it is totally there, as amended.
I think j
16 that's fine.
I have to figure out the best way to make sure 17 that it is clear that the practice applies to the~ other 18 offices that report to me as well, i
1921 003 1
19 Ci: AIRMAN HENDRIE:
John?
I 20 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I have another 21 l comment which really goes back to an earlier point I was i
22 !
trying to make, that I think that there is, to me at least, I
i 23 [ it is a more fundamental question of the relationship of I
24 jj the office directors to the EDO, not in the policy disagreemen i
25 l area, but in the more day-to-day operational area, which
I 49 t
1 i
i l
I 1
relates to the other issue that I had suggested that we i
3 1
2 ll incorporate in, this morning, which I don't think it is f
3 l
going to be possible because of the Latzness of the time But I
4 j
I do want to mention, at least as I view this issue, which l
5 l
is related to what role does the EDO play.
6 f i
I think we have to, at some stage, address the 1
7 !
delegation of authority question which Vic had raised I
I 8
f last fall, and which apparently, and I wanted to ask Al or 9
Fitz, as I trace back, the question was raised and then in i
10 l November there was an outline of proposed scope of work and l
ll i the review, the latest response appears, and I don't want to 1
12 hl mischaracterize it, but the picture I get from it is that 13 j not much has been done since ---
14 "
MR. KENNEKE:
You are very kind.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Since November when that 3
i 16 fairly elaborate scope of work was laid out, which sounded I
17 and still sounded right.
I guess I was a little disturbed 18 y by the much more abbreviated scope of work that you have now recently proposed.
192 064 19 20 j But the larger question of what is the ED0's i
21 l role in the organization and what are the office director's il 22 !l roles and what is our role, which I thought Vic was getting i
il 23 j at, but this delegation of authority question appears to me 24 :l, to be one that we have just got to wrestle with.
And I 25.; don't think we are going to wrestle with it on this particular li I!
i!
i 50
'i 1
- l
'ikissuehere,butI--ifwedoendupwrestlingwiththat 1
is 2
and addressing it, why some of these questions will fall out.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The time does run down, and I 4
think I'm going to have to adjourn this session.
f Let me recommend the following:
We have not, in 5
6 fact, picked up the status report that has been requested on 7 l the delegation matters.
It seems to me we probably ought 8
to.
I'm not sure that I know quite where to recommend that 9
the business of getting the new provision of the law one 10 way or another into the manual, it is not quite fair to 11 suggest how that ought to go at this point.
I think maybe 12 some of this further discussion, which would follow from i
13 the status report and discussion of delegation of authority l
14 l would be needed.
15' What I suggest we then do is to hold for the 16 moment on 79-82.
Sam, look for a place to schedule us back 17 '
on to a discussion, which we will understand next time will lfocuslesson,andIhopenotverymuchatall,onproposed 18 i' language for the Manual Chapter, but rather focus on this 19 l
20 '
organizational question and the report on delegation of 21lauthoritywhenthestatusofthatworkisdone.
22 I suspect that af ter that we may want to suggest l
23 i various ways to recast the proposals in 79-82, but I would 24 :
kind of like to hear that discussion before I do it.
2 5 '-
It is clear that one option would be, as was 1
1921 0o5
!i y!.
A 51
)d I:
l E
i 9
1 J suggested here by several of the office directors, toinclude.j the new statutory language, in addition to the sentence that.i 2 i II 3
is already in there, in each of their chapters.
Then Lee I
4 has to figure out a way to extend -- to express the CommissionP 5 L wish that this right, I guess, of office directors is 6
extended to non-statutory offices up and down the line, and 7 b I'm not sure whether that's best achieved by a couple of l
l 8
!; sentences under each one or some other version of the general,
i chapter.
9 I
10 i It appears to me that if one went in that direction :
l' l
11 that there would probably -- I guess there would not, then 12 be any need for an implementing memorandum for me, is that i
13 : correct?-
I 14 ]
So maybe you ought not to move too speedily to i
15~! reflect on different language, Peter.
We might pull out the I
i 16 5 need for the base document.
s 6
l 17 il Now, I do feel that I'm going to have to terminate 1
18 discussion on this subject at this point.
0 1
19.,
(Whereupon, the meeting in the above-entitled I
I 20 j matter was concluded at 12:35 noon.)
l 4
2 1921 066 g
22,
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i @c WASHINGTON. D. C. 20555
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%'o' ' C/ ' */
March 21, 1979
=-
,wws 3-
=
OFF1CE OF THE
- ~~
SECRETARY EC..
=.
b MEMORANDUM FOR:
Lee V.
Gossick, Executive Director i
for Operations U
g.
'[
AlKenneke,ActingDirectof7)'3PE E.
ti e
Samuel J.
Chilk, Secretary FROM:
bg i.
SU3 JECT:
STAFF REQUIREMENTS - DISCUSSTON OF E
n SECY-7 9-8 2 - STAFF CO.'GUNIC.ATIONS WITH THE CO1GiISSION, 11:30 A.M.,
- TEURSDAY, MARCH 15, 1979, CO:GISSIONERS' CONFERENCE
- ROOM, D.C.
OFFICE (OPE:: TO PUBLIC ATTENDANCE)
The Ceratission discussed SECY-79-82, but deferred final.
E.,
action pending a further Commission discussion of general k
organizational matters and a review of existing delegations
.[.
p of authority.
(EDO/ OPE) (SECY SUSPENSE: June 14, 1979) l
[.
cc:
Chairman Hendrie Cc missioner Gilinsky CO:=issioner Kennedy Cc missioner Bradford Commissioner Ahearne General Counsel Director, Congressional Affairs Director, Public Affairs fj' IE
[.
1921 067 b[311 r
Jb Q(p (4 Yc]
rA A