ML13262A152
| ML13262A152 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 08/28/2013 |
| From: | NRC/FSME/DWMEP |
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| Shared Package | |
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| References | |
| NRC-212 | |
| Download: ML13262A152 (63) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Three-Mile Island, Unit 2 Post-Shutdown Decommissioning Activities Report: Public Meeting Docket Number: (n/a)
Location:
Hershey, Pennsylvania Date:
Wednesday, August 28, 2013 Work Order No.:
NRC-212 Pages 1-64 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
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3 THREE MILE ISLAND, UNIT 2 4
POST-SHUTDOWN DECOMMISSIONING ACTIVITIES REPORT 5
PUBLIC MEETING 6
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7 Wednesday, 8
August 28th, 2013 9
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10 Hershey, Pennsylvania 11 The Public Meeting was held at 7:00 p.m., at the 12 Hershey Lodge, Cocoa Terrace, 325 University Avenue, 13 Hershey, Pennsylvania, Bruce Watson, Facilitator, 14 presiding.
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APPEARANCES:
1 BRUCE WATSON - NRC 2
JOHN BUCKLEY - NRC 3
LAURIE KAUFFMAN - NRC 4
5 SCOTT PORTZLINE 6
ERIC EPSTEIN 7
MARY STAMOS 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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A-G-E-N-D-A 1
2 Opening Remarks and IntroductionsError! Bookmark not defined.4 3
Decommissioning Activities Report, 4
John Buckley, TMI 2 Project ManagerError! Bookmark not defined.7 5
Decommissioning Power Reactor Oversight Program, 6
Laurie Kauffman, NRC Inspector for SAFSTORError! Bookmark not defi 7
Public Comments Error! Bookmark not defined.24 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
7:03 p.m.
2 FACILITATOR WATSON: Welcome and thank you 3
for coming this evening.
4 My name is Bruce Watson, I'm Chief of the 5
Reactor Decommissioning Branch at the NRC in 6
Headquarters. My Branch is responsible for the 7
licensing activities associated with TMI 2 and a variety 8
of other decommissioning projects around the country.
9 Tonight's meeting is a category 3 meeting, 10 which means the public participation is actively sought 11 by the NRC. That is why we have it locally, here in the 12 area, where the licensee is.
13 A report of this meeting will be prepared 14 by the NRC, and it will be made available, to the public, 15 through our NRC's agency-wide document access and 16 management system, commonly known as Adams.
17 We also have a court reporter here, so the 18 meeting minutes will be captured.
19 Documents, submitted to the NRC, and 20 comments made by the public, made during this meeting, 21 will become part of the record of this meeting.
22 On the back table, when you signed in, we 23 do have critique sheets. We would ask it, if you could, 24 fill those forms out for us, and send them in. We would 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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like your feedback on the meeting, the forum, and your 1
participation.
2 The format for tonight's meeting will 3
include some short presentations by the NRC staff on 4
licensing, and inspection processes, and on the 5
highlights of the post-shutdown decommissioning 6
activities report, which is the real purpose of this 7
meeting, is to get your comments on the PSDAR, as we call 8
it.
9 Following those presentations we would ask 10 for comments from the public on the PSDAR. And that is 11 the subject of our meeting tonight.
12 Can we go to the next slide?
13 MR. PORTZLINE: I have a question. Can you 14 clarify a category 3 meeting, and also states that the 15 public can participate, throughout the meeting, as they 16 see fit.
17 So if we have a question, or comment, during 18 a slide, we may choose to hold it to the end, or interrupt 19 20 FACILITATOR WATSON: I would actually like 21 you to hold it up to the end, so we think it would be more 22 efficient that way.
23 MR. PORTZLINE: Well, I would like that, 24 too. But, sometimes, --
25
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FACILITATOR WATSON: But if you have 1
something you absolutely have to bring up, feel free, get 2
our attention, okay?
3 This slide depicts the decommissioning 4
activities in facilities, that we have conducted, since 5
we instituted the regulations, back in 1997, commonly 6
known as the License Termination Rule.
7 If you look at this slide you will see that 8
we have terminated the licenses on seven power reactors.
9 In all we have terminated the licenses on 11 power 10 reactors, but seven of them were done since we put the 11 new rules, into place, back in 1997.
12 And if you look at the graph, also, we have 13 terminated the licenses of about 50 material sites around 14 the country, complex material sites, as a matter of fact, 15 and 13 research reactors.
16 Let's go on to the next slide, which is the 17 agenda. Our agenda, tonight, is to discuss the NRC's 18 decommissioning process.
19 With me, tonight, is John Buckley, he will 20 be covering that. He is the project manager for TMI 2.
21 And he is also going to discuss the PSDAR for TMI 2, as 22 it was submitted to us.
23 Also, with me, is Laurie Kauffman, from our 24 Region One Office. She is one of our inspectors who 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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actually inspects the TMI 2. And she is going to discuss 1
the NRC's inspection process.
2 And then, after we are completed, we gladly 3
ask for your comments, and questions, and hopefully we 4
will be able to respond to whatever your issue, okay?
5 Given that I'm going to turn it over to John 6
Buckley. And, at the end, I would like to make a few 7
concluding remarks before we close the meeting. We do 8
have the meeting only until 9 o'clock, the room.
9 MR. BUCKLEY: Good evening. My name is John 10 Buckley, and I appreciate you guys taking your time out 11 of your schedule to come and join us at tonight's PSDAR 12 meeting.
13 In discussing the NRC's decommissioning 14 process is provided in the 10 Code of Federal Regulations 15 50.82. And there are specific steps that are spelled 16 out, in the regulations, for how the decommissioning 17 process works.
18 Decommissioning actually begins when the 19 licensee permanently ceases operations. Within 30 days 20 of deciding to cease operations, the licensee must notify 21 the NRC, in writing, of that decision.
22 The licensee then removes fuel from the 23 reactor. And, again, after the fuel is removed, the 24 licensees are required to notify NRC that the fuel has 25
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been removed.
1 Before, or within two years, of cessation 2
of operations, of that actual notification to NRC, 3
licensees are required to submit what Bruce called the 4
PSDAR, which is the post-shutdown decommissioning 5
activities report. It is tough to say, so I will just 6
use PSDAR for tonight.
7 So that has to be submitted within, before, 8
or within two years of cessation of operations.
9 Following that the licensees have a choice. They can go 10 into SAFSTOR store mode, or they can start immediate 11 decom.
12 Within two years of completing their 13 decommissioning activities, the licensees are required 14 to submit, to the NRC, a license termination plan. That 15 document is, in fact, reviewed, and approved, by the NRC 16 and it becomes part of the license record.
17 When decommissioning is complete the 18 license is terminated. So the question, probably, comes 19 to your mind. If licensees are required to submit a 20 PSDAR prior to, or within two years of cessation of 21 operations, what are we talking about tonight?
22 Next slide. The accident at TMI made the 23 shutdown of the TMI 2 reactor different from all other 24 reactor shutdowns. Because of the accident the normal 25
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decommissioning process was not followed.
1 During the post-accident cleanup phase, GPU 2
defueled the reactor -- excuse me?
3 MR. PORTZLINE: I guess what I'm trying to 4
understand is you said, because of the accident, normal 5
decommissioning process has not been followed correctly?
6 MR. BUCKLEY: That is what I said, yes.
7 MR. PORTZLINE: All right. So what 8
process was -- was any process followed at all?
9 MR. BUCKLEY: Well, yes, a process was 10 followed. What was not followed was the licensee did not 11 make a conscious effort to cease operations, because of 12 the accident, operations were ceased.
13 So we didn't get a cessation of operations 14 notification. That is why. All right, so the start of 15 the decommissioning process was not followed. I think 16 that is recognized, okay?
17 MR. PORTZLINE: It is not okay, that is why 18 I'm trying to follow you. Was there, what you said 19 earlier, and I'm just trying to get this. There are two 20 options, SAFSTOR or Decom. You are saying entombment is 21 not an option, correct?
22 MR. BUCKLEY: Entombment is an option but, 23 generally, it hasn't been chosen yet. And it is not 24 expected to be chosen here.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 FACILITATOR WATSON: Let me just respond to 1
that. Our guidance includes the option for entombment, 2
okay? So far we do not have regulations, nor have we had 3
any reactors, or for that matter, any licensee request 4
anything to be entombed, okay?
5 So we would have to develop rules and 6
regulations for that. But the guidance documents do 7
talk about that. Internationally they talk about that.
8 But, so far, we have not had any entombment 9
requests, nor do we expect any, okay?
10 MR. PORTZLINE: Well, that is where you 11 lost me, because you have three options, and we have no 12 scenario or criteria protocol, why would you have that 13 option?
14 FACILITATOR WATSON: In the guidance, it is 15 not a regulation.
16 MR. PORTZLINE: Just so that I'm clear 17 tonight. Because, again, I have been doing this for 35 18 years, I was told since day one that entombment was an 19 option, you are saying it isn't an option.
20 FACILITATOR WATSON: We haven't mentioned 21 entombment.
22 MR. PORTZLINE: Well, the industry has many 23 reports about entombment, and they are studying how to 24 entomb reactors.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 FACILITATOR WATSON: Right.
1 MR. PORTZLINE: So for you to stand there 2
and say, to give the impression that entombment is 3
probably not going to happen is completely unfounded.
4 The industry is looking, very carefully, at how 5
entombment will benefit everybody.
6 FACILITATOR WATSON: Well, let me just 7
clarify. We have not had a request for entombment.
8 MR. PORTZLINE: We heard that.
9 FACILITATOR WATSON: The Department of 10 Energy has entombed some of their facilities, okay, after 11 they removed some of the highly reactive material.
12 And that is part of their process, to let 13 things decay, in place, with entombment. But in our 14 licensees we have not had any, nor do we expect any.
15 MR. PORTZLINE: We heard that.
16 FACILITATOR WATSON: But it is still an 17 option, okay?
18 MR. PORTZLINE: Right, and it is likely.
19 FACILITATOR WATSON: That is not the action 20 in progress, we will leave it at that.
21 MR. PORTZLINE: Well, it is part of the 22 agenda because we, as citizens of this area, are 23 concerned about the problems that this plant has given 24 us.
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NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 It gave us electricity for 90 days and 35 1
years later we still have headaches from it. That is not 2
going to go away.
3 FACILITATOR WATSON: We understand.
4 MR. BUCKLEY: Can I go on?
5 MR. PORTZLINE: Yes.
6 MR. BUCKLEY: Okay. So during the 7
post-accident cleanup phase GPU defueled the reactor, 8
and decontaminated the facility to the point where it was 9
in a safe and stable shutdown condition.
10 That condition is called
- PDMS, 11 post-defueling monitored storage. That transition from 12 post-accident cleanup to PDMS, was reviewed and approved 13 by NRC.
14 NRC issued license amendment 45 on 15 September 14th, 1993, which approved two different 16 things. One, it approved the PDMS safety analysis 17 report and, second, it converted GPU's operating license 18 to a possession-only license.
19 So although the regulations in part 50.82 20 were written to address routine plant shutdown, those 21 regulations do still apply to an accident reactor 22 situation, such as we have here.
23 GPU, last year, determined that the PDMS 24 SAR, which the NRC reviewed and approved, meets most of 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 the conditions that were required of a decommissioning 1
plant at the time, and most of the conditions that it 2
required of a PSDAR today, but not all.
3 So GPU decided to submit, to prepare and 4
submit, a PSDAR to come into compliance with the 5
regulations in 50.82.
6 MR. EPSTEIN: So let me ask you this. The 7
company identified the fact that they were 18 years 8
behind in reporting the issue --
9 MR. BUCKLEY: That is correct.
10 MR. EPSTEIN: And so you guys, at GPU, had 11 not reported, the way I understand this, we could still 12 not be here tonight, in other words, they could still be 13 out of compliance, and we could be going indefinitely 14 until we got to this point?
15 MR. BUCKLEY: Well, I think because of --
16 and that is where I come back to my statement before, 17 Eric, the fact that there was an accident made the 18 shutdown different.
19 The routine decommissioning process was not 20 followed, period. I think that everybody thought that 21 the PDMS SAR was the same, or would be equivalent to, what 22 was required in the decommissioning plan at the time.
23 MR. EPSTEIN: No, I get that. But if 24 everybody believes this, why did everybody miss it for 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 13 years, that it was reported missing and I'm a probation 1
officer.
2 MR. BUCKLEY: Next slide, Sarah. Part 3
50.82(a)(4) provides the general requirements for what 4
must be included in a PSDAR submittal. And 50.82 5
identifies four, I guess, topics or issues that must be 6
addressed.
7 The first is there must be a description of 8
the decommissioning activities to be undertaken. The 9
second, they must provide a decommissioning schedule.
10 Third, there must be an estimate of the 11 decommissioning costs and, finally, there must be a 12 discussion about the environmental impacts associated 13 with the decommissioning activities.
14 In order to provide additional guidance, to 15 the licensees, the NRC published a Regulatory Guide. It 16 is Regulatory Guide 1.185, and the title of that is 17 Standard Format and Content for PSDARs.
18 And so it is that guidance document which 19 identifies how NRC will find the PSDAR acceptable to the 20 NRC. So the regulations provide the requirements, the 21 guidance document provides how the NRC staff wants to see 22 that regulation implemented.
23 Next slide.
24 PARTICIPANT: Excuse me.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 MR. BUCKLEY: Yes?
1 PARTICIPANT: I want to make a point about 2
the transcription. Will the questions or comments, from 3
the audience, so far, I'm concerned because I have read 4
many transcripts that comments off-mic are inaudible.
5 And it is important to us that it is being, 6
that it is put on the record.
7 MR. BUCKLEY: That is important for us, 8
too.
9 PARTICIPANT: Could we use a microphone 10 when we have comments?
11 MR. BUCKLEY: Certainly. Have you had a 12 problem with names yet, or --
13 COURT REPORTER: Yes, no one has identified 14 themselves.
15 FACILITATOR WATSON: Okay, so we should 16 identify -- could we do that -- we will do it from this 17 point forward and could we go back to where we started, 18 for now, for comments?
19 PARTICIPANT: I have been identifying 20 myself, maybe he couldn't hear it. That is part of the 21 point.
22 FACILITATOR WATSON: Okay, so we need to 23 correct that. We will take care of it, when we get to 24 Q&A we will use the mic.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 PARTICIPANT: No, we need a transcript of 1
what occurs at this meeting. It is a legal document, and 2
we can't have paragraphs say inaudible, when we could 3
have corrected it right now.
4 FACILITATOR WATSON: That is fine. So we 5
will make sure that the names get associated with the 6
statements.
7 PARTICIPANT: No. I'm saying we want the 8
comments to be said into a microphone, and not from 50 9
feet away.
10 FACILITATOR WATSON: You can take mine, I 11 think you can all hear me perfectly well. So good point.
12 When you want to make a comment, come up and you can have 13 the microphone. How is that? Fair enough, state your 14 name, make your comment.
15 MR. BUCKLEY: The PSDAR review process is 16 also spelled out in the regulations. Upon receipt of a 17 PSDAR the NRC notifies the public. And I did that in the 18 form of a Federal Register Notice.
19 The PSDAR is made available to the public 20 for review, and I did that by placing it in Adams. You 21 folks all had public access to it.
22 After publishing the Federal Register 23 notice, the NRC is required to schedule a public meeting.
24 That is where we are at tonight. So tonight is the public 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 meeting associated with this PSDAR submittal.
1 And the NRC will conduct its review, of the 2
PSDAR, in accordance with the regulatory guide 1.185, 3
that I just mentioned.
4 I have to let people know that the NRC does 5
not officially approve the PSDAR. The PSDAR is reviewed 6
by the staff, and we will determine whether or not it is 7
acceptable, and the criteria we use for acceptance is 8
provided in that regulatory guide.
9 Next slide, please, Sarah. Okay. So the 10 reg guide that I just mentioned, 1.185, provides the 11 review criteria. Here is the review criteria the staff 12 will use.
13 First, can decommissioning be completed as 14 described in the PSDAR? Second, can decommissioning be 15 completed within the 60 years allowed by the regulations?
16 Third, can decommissioning be completed for 17 the estimated costs that are presented in the PSDAR?
18 And, fourth, the plant decommissioning activities, we 19 have to ensure that they do not endanger the public health 20 or the safety of the environment.
21 Next slide. Okay, the PSDAR is a rather 22 thin document. It is about 25 pages. It was made 23 available to the public. I hope most of you had a chance 24 to read it.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 If you didn't I understand, we are all busy.
1 So what I will do is give you a couple of the highlights 2
from the PSDAR.
3 First, GPU intends to decommission TMI 2 4
concurrently with TMI 1. What this means is that 5
decommissioning of TMI 2 will start after the operating 6
license for TMI 1 expires. So the decommissioning 7
process will start after 2034.
8 Second, TMI 2 will remain in the current 9
PDMS state, which it has been in, since 1993. It will 10 remain in that state until the start of the 11 decommissioning.
12 Third, initiating of decommissioning of TMI 13 2 in 2034 will provide sufficient time for GPU Nuclear 14 to finish decommissioning within that 60 year window 15 specified by the regulations.
16 MR. PORTZLINE: You said GPU. Do you mean 17 First Entergy?
18 MR. BUCKLEY: I'm sorry.
19 MR. PORTZLINE: You said --
20 MR. BUCKLEY: Yes, correct. And, fourth, 21 licensee estimates that the cost for decommissioning is 22 about 845 million. That is in 2008 dollars.
23 In 2012 dollars that number jumps to about 24 950 million.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 MR. EPSTEIN: (Inaudible.) Is that 1
decommissioning, that includes non-radiological 2
decommission?
3 MR. BUCKLEY: That includes only the 4
decommission required to terminate the license.
5 MR. EPSTEIN: (Inaudible) All right. So 6
let me ask you this, because your numbers don't add up.
7 But you are saying that license termination --
8 MR. BUCKLEY: Hold it. Can you use the 9
microphone, Eric, please?
10 MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you. Eric Epstein. I 11 think there is -- basically the license for TMI 1 was set 12 to expire in 2014. So point number 1 assumes that the 13 license extension, for the plant has --
14 MR. BUCKLEY: -- been extended to 2034.
15 MR. EPSTEIN: And so we are assuming that 16 the plant will run to 2034.
17 MR. BUCKLEY: Correct.
18 MR. EPSTEIN: When you say the TMI 2 license 19 termination will occur before September 2053, 60 years 20 after cessation of operation, the TMI 2 license was 21 issued in '78.
22 MR. BUCKLEY: Right.
23 MR. EPSTEIN: So you are saying that the 24 cessation of operations occurred in '93?
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 MR. BUCKLEY: Correct.
1 MR. EPSTEIN: All right. So although the 2
plant melted down in '79 you guys, as your frame of 3
reference, you are saying that cessation of operations 4
is actually in '93?
5 MR. BUCKLEY: Cessation of operations is 6
'93, corresponding to the time that they got their 7
decommissioning license, yes.
8 MR. EPSTEIN: So -- but between '79 and '93 9
the plant did not generate a kilowatt of energy. So what 10 I'm trying to figure out, what do you call that period 11 between melting the plant down, in '79, and '93 cessation 12 of operations? What is that term for those 14 years?
13 MR. BUCKLEY: There is no term for those 14 14 years, it is as simple as that. Cessation of operations 15 has been deemed to be September of 1993. That is when 16 they got -- their operating license was changed to 17 possession only license.
18 So those are the general highlights. In 19 conclusion, I guess I would just like to reiterate a 20 couple of points.
21 First, the NRC received the PSDAR for TMI 22 2 on June 28th, 2013. The NRC is not required to approve 23 the PSDAR by regulation, but the NRC will review the PSDAR 24 for acceptance.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 If it is not acceptable, the NRC will send 1
a request for additional information, to the licensee, 2
and the PSDAR will be updated and revised.
3 And, finally, the NRC will consider 4
comments we hear tonight, from you folks, on the PSDAR.
5 We will consider that in our review and acceptance of that 6
document.
7 Thank you very much, I appreciate that.
8 That concludes my presentation. I will turn the floor 9
over to Laurie.
10 MR. EPSTEIN: John, just one thing. What 11 is the difference between acceptance and approve?
12 MR. BUCKLEY: Approve is NRC's formal 13 approval via license amendment. And the acceptance is 14 a non-formal approval, it does not become part of that 15 license.
16 There is no license amendment associated 17 with this --
18 MR. EPSTEIN: So you could accept without 19 approval?
20 MR. BUCKLEY: We could but we wouldn't 21 because our acceptance means that we actually find the 22 document --
23 MR. EPSTEIN: I'm trying to understand it.
24 At the end of this exercise, today, will there be an 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 acceptance, or will there be approval, or will it be what?
1 MR. BUCKLEY: It will be an acceptance, 2
which is accompanied by a letter going back to the 3
licensee saying we find your PSDAR acceptable. There is 4
not a licensing action associated with that document.
5 Anyway, I look forward to your comments. I 6
hope you folks have had the chance to read the PSDAR. You 7
know where the criteria that we plan to use, in reviewing 8
that document, is located. If you think that the PSDAR 9
is deficient, in some of those criteria, I look forward 10 to your comments. Thank you.
11 MS. KAUFFMAN: Good evening and welcome, 12 ladies and gentlemen. Can you all hear me okay? Thank 13 you.
14 My name is Laurie Kauffman and, as was 15 already mentioned, I am the lead inspector for all four 16 of the SAFSTOR plants in Region One.
17 I've been conducting decommissioning and 18 SAFSTOR plants for about 13 years of my 23 years at the 19 NRC.
20 Tonight I would like to take a few moments 21 to briefly discuss, with you, or cover with you, a high 22 level overview of the NRC's decommissioning power 23 reactor oversight program. And, if you don't mind, I'm 24 just going to try to say the SAFSTOR inspection program.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 The inspection program is a multi-tiered 1
process. It begins with the regulations, of course. But 2
then we have procedures to follow, as well as the licensee 3
has procedures to follow.
4 And our high-tiered procedure is called the 5
NRC Inspection Manual. And within that inspection 6
manual contains the objectives, and the procedures, that 7
we use to conduct SAFSTOR inspections.
8 And this particular inspection manual is 9
Chapter 2561, and it is entitled, The Decommissioning 10 Power Reactor Oversight Program.
11 Now, during the course of my presentation 12 I will be utilizing the acronym SAFSTOR. And that is 13 going to be short for safe storage of a permanently 14 shutdown power plant, such as Three Mile Island Unit 2.
15 Overall the NRC does have a comprehensive 16 program to conduct inspections. And we conduct routine 17 inspections of site-specific SAFSTOR programs, on an 18 annual basis.
19 The reason we do that is to verify controls 20 for safe storage of radioactive materials at these 21 permanently shutdown facilities.
22 Within the inspection manual there are 23 approximately 9 different inspections procedures, that 24 are utilized, if you will, we call them the core 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 inspection procedures.
1 And there are additional inspection 2
procedures that we may utilize at discretion, as we see 3
fit, with regard to how a SAFSTOR program is being run.
4 Now, remember I'm conducting inspections at 5
four different SAFSTOR plants, so I have to also tailor 6
my inspections specifically to each different plant.
7 However, having said that, in general some 8
of the inspection programs that we look at, for the 9
licensee's radiation safety programs, their maintenance 10 of systems and components, any safety reviews that they 11 may have done over the past year, for example, since the 12 last inspection was conducted.
13 And we also review any self-assessments, or 14 their corrective action program. This is just to give 15 you a general idea of some of the areas that we take a 16 look at.
17 Again, don't forget, I have at least nine 18 areas that I like to take a look at. And I do that on 19 a sample basis. At the completion of each inspection the 20 NRC will issue an inspection report to document the 21 findings and observations.
22 And, in general, our recent SAFSTOR 23 inspections have found that there have been no ongoing 24 decommissioning activities, that the material condition 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 of the components, and the structures, is satisfactory.
1 And SAFSTOR programs are, in general, in 2
compliance with regulatory requirements.
The 3
inspection reports are publicly available, and they are 4
located in Adams which, again, is the agency-wide 5
documents access and management system.
6 And this particular system is the official 7
recordkeeping system through which the NRC provides 8
access to libraries, or collections of the publicly 9
available documents.
10 In addition to conducting inspections John 11 and I have a very close working relationship. So any 12 time I have any inspection items, or what have you, I 13 always make sure that he is aware of those items, and vice 14 versa. We keep in touch with each other with regard to 15 any licensing issues.
16 The last slide, please. The last slide is 17 our NRC names, our contact numbers, and our email. So 18 if at any time you would like to contact us, please feel 19 free to do so. We are available to you.
20 And this concludes my presentation on the 21 inspection process. Thank you very much for your time 22 and attention. I really appreciate you.
23 At this time we would like to hear any 24 comments that you may have on the PSDAR. Thank you.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 FACILITATOR WATSON: Name first.
1 MR. PORTZLINE: Scott Portzline, Three 2
Mile Island Alert.
3 I have two questions for you, Laurie, 4
please. I haven't seen any documents lately, I'm sure 5
they are there, on how much radiation is being released 6
from Unit 2. Can you tell me what that number is now?
7 MS. KAUFFMAN: There is no radiation coming 8
from the plant.
9 MR. PORTZLINE: When did that change?
10 MS. KAUFFMAN: From when?
11 MR. PORTZLINE: No, I'm asking you, when 12 did that change?
13 MS. KAUFFMAN: Yes, I know, but I don't know 14 what you mean by that.
15 MR. PORTZLINE: When did it change from no 16 release to a small amount?
17 MS. KAUFFMAN: I can't answer that 18 question. It has been that way for a very long time. I 19 really do encourage you to take a look at the inspection 20 reports.
21 And if you have any difficulty finding them, 22 I would be more than happy to help you find those.
23 MR. PORTZLINE: The second question is, in 24 the past they reported small releases from Unit 2. You 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 are not aware of that? Are you aware of that?
1 MS. KAUFFMAN: I'm not really sure where 2
you are coming from, from that.
3 MR. PORTZLINE: I'm coming from the 4
audience, but it seems you can't understand a simple 5
question. I asked a simple question. Are you aware 6
that TMI Unit 2 released radiation in years gone by?
7 The answer is either yes, you are aware, or 8
no. Now, do you understand where I'm coming from? No, 9
I asked Laurie.
10 FACILITATOR WATSON: I know you did. This 11 is a public meeting, and I'm running it, and I would like 12 to answer the question, sir.
13 MR. PORTZLINE: Well, I asked Laurie, you 14 are not Laurie.
15 FACILITATOR WATSON: I know, but we are 16 getting ready to go to common questions from the 17 audience, okay?
18 MR. PORTZLINE: No, no, no.
19 FACILITATOR WATSON: No, let me --
20 MR. PORTZLINE: Are you going to have her 21 answer the question?
22 FACILITATOR WATSON: I'm trying to 23 understand your question because, obviously, she didn't 24 understand the question.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 MR. PORTZLINE: Is there anyone here who 1
doesn't understand the question?
2 FACILITATOR WATSON: I think the question 3
really is --
4 MR. PORTZLINE: Would someone interpret 5
the question for this man here?
6 FACILITATOR WATSON: I'm going to --
7 MR. PORTZLINE: Evidently you don't need an 8
interpretation, they all get it. Laurie, could you 9
answer the question, please?
10 FACILITATOR WATSON: I think your question 11 is, are there --
12 MR. PORTZLINE: I said Laurie could you 13 answer the question please?
14 FACILITATOR WATSON: Excuse me, I'm 15 speaking.
16 MR. PORTZLINE: She said, earlier at this 17 meeting, that they would be happy to answer and entertain 18 any comment and question. You are not even listening at 19 this moment.
20 MS. KAUFFMAN: Sir, my understanding of 21 your question is, are there any effluents that are coming 22 from the plant, is that correct? I'm asking this 23 gentleman.
24 MR. PORTZLINE: I wasn't listening. Go 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 ahead, now, please repeat it. The same to you, very 1
nice. This is how you treat the public.
2 FACILITATOR WATSON: Sir, I think the 3
question you were asking, and you can clarify this, was 4
are there effluents, containing radioactive materials, 5
from the site?
6 MR. PORTZLINE: That was a different 7
question. I didn't ask that. The question I asked is, 8
was Laurie aware that it used to release radiation. She 9
didn't answer yes or no yet. Don't change the question.
10 FACILITATOR WATSON: We are trying to make 11 sure we understand the question.
12 MR. PORTZLINE: All right, I will put it in 13 writing, you can get back to me in 35 years.
14 FACILITATOR WATSON: Okay, you are welcome 15 to do that. We would like your comments. You can put 16 them on the critique sheets, if you would like, or you 17 can send them to John, or myself, or whatever.
18 I think the question you were asking was, 19 are there effluents from the plant? Yes, there are.
20 They are monitored, and they are well within the 21 regulatory limits of 10CFR20.
22 They are a
small fraction of the 23 requirements, or the limits, and so therefore yes, there 24 are releases from the plant, very small, very minuscule, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 and there are no health problems with that, no safety 1
issues.
2 Can we open it up for any other questions?
3 MR. EPSTEIN: I'm Eric Epstein, Chairman of 4
Three Mile Island Alert. I think one of the problems is, 5
when the accident occurred I was 18, I'm now 53.
6 So there is a lot of people here where this 7
was a determining factor in how their life was lived, and 8
how their life was impacted.
9 And although there are different people 10 here, tonight, wearing different suits, they are kind of 11 giving us the same response.
12 What I would like to do is walk you through 13 what I went through, the last 35 years, listening to your 14 predictions.
15 Everything I am going to say tonight came 16 from the NRC. The reassurances that nobody was hurt, the 17 reassurances that everything was under control, the 18 reassurances that we know how to decommission a plant.
19 The reassurances, back in '79, that by 2013 20 there would be a radioactive waste disposal site to take 21 the waste. By the way, Neal, thanks for sending me the 22 information, I appreciate it.
23 Let me just walk you through, and this is 24 just my personal experience, so I'm speaking for TMI 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 Alert.
1 What I have witnessed, in 35 years of going 2
through meetings -- now, for some of you who don't know 3
me, or may know me and don't like me, that means there 4
are a lot of people in this audience, and I know a lot 5
of you who have had to give up Girl Scout meetings, that 6
have had to give up doing Little League.
7 That have given up a lot to be here to make 8
sure that we can document the grotesquery that is 9
happening tonight, because it is grotesque.
10 If you look at what happened, within two 11 years after submitting the certification of permit to 12 close, to NRC, which is what they did for PDMS, and I was 13 very involved in that, I litigated that case.
14 Nuclear power plants, all nuclear power 15 plants, as you discussed, are required to file a 16 post-shutdown decommissioning activities report.
17 GPU's plant owners neglected to do that.
18 You can call it whatever you want, an 19 oversight, that was in '95, that was 18 years ago, all 20 right?
21 On February 13th, 2013, and I tracked the 22 records, over 17 years after the report was due, and 30 23 years after the meltdown, the NRC decided to give TMI 2 24 the benefit of the doubt, based on an issue that they 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 didn't catch, but was brought to them by the company that 1
melted the core.
2 The NRC stated, quote, and these are your 3
quotes: After reviewing the circumstances for the 4
company's failure to submit a PSDAR, the NRC downgraded 5
the severity level 3 violation, to an NCV, which is a 6
non-cited violation.
7 In my mind that is like being awarded a PhD 8
for flunking out of first grade. If, according to what 9
you said, that a PSDAR provides a description of the 10 plant's decommissioning activities, a schedule for 11 accompanying them, and the estimate of expected costs, 12 okay, I can accept that.
13 That is a good idea, let's have a plan, let's 14 have a strategy, let's decide how we are going to do this.
15 The new revised plan, and this is what I have heard for 16 the last 35 years, there is always a new revised plan, 17 scheduling for decommissioning TMI 2 has been developed 18 in order to achieve the termination of the license, by 19 September 14th, 2053, all right?
20 Eighty-four years after the first piece of 21 dirt was removed, after construction -- 84 years later 22 we are thinking about maybe we will start 23 decommissioning.
24 Seventy-four years after the plant was 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 melted down, and 60 years after TMI, in their own 1
nomenclature said the cleanup has been completed, and 2
future decommissioning will be limited to 200 million 3
dollars.
4 This is what I heard from you guys, year, 5
after year, after year. Now, I footnoted everything.
6 I'm a former professor, everything is there for you to 7
look at.
8 Let me give you a history of what it was like 9
to grow up here at TMI. In '69 Med Ed broke ground, and 10 most of us were supportive of the nuclear power plant 11 thinking, wow, this is a pretty cool thing, we are going 12 to build an atomic energy plant here, it is better than 13 coal.
14 Not bad. The station came on-line on 15 December of '78, it was grossly over budget, and behind 16 schedule. But nobody really wants to talk about that any 17 more, it was behind -- and it operated for one 120th of 18 its operating life span.
19 Thank God you guys don't have to operate in 20 a free market, or you would be out of business. In fact, 21 groups like ours, TMI Alert, helped to rescue you.
22 In '82 we supported the Thornbird Plant, 23 despite the fact that you were two and a half times over 24 budget, despite the fact that you melted the core, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 despite the fact that we ate a lot of crow for doing this, 1
we made sure that you were still around to clean the plant 2
up, even though you are still not around, all right?
3 The costs that we spent to defuel the plant 4
was one billion. Which was more than it cost to build 5
the plant, more than it cost to build the plant. You 6
didn't pay for it, ratepayers paid for it, taxpayers paid 7
for it, insurers paid for it.
8 In fact you blamed Babcock and Wilcock for 9
the problem. Maybe some of you weren't even born back 10 then, I remember that.
11 At the time of the accident the plant was 12 owned by four companies, none of which are in this area, 13 Jersey Central Power and Light, Penn Elec, and Med Ed.
14 Med Ed owned 50 percent of the plant. Allentown, JCP&L 15 was Jersey, 25 was Pen Elec.
16 The irony, the insult of the accidents is 17 that very few people around here ever derived any 18 electrical benefit from the accident, but we are still 19 dealing with it 35 years later.
20 What was really interesting, in 1980, you 21 guys renamed yourself. You were no longer Med Ed, you 22 became GPU. January 18th, 1994, you guys may not 23 remember this, but some of us in the room tonight attended 24 over 80 TMI advisory panel meetings.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 Over 80 TMI advisory panel meetings to 1
discuss how we, as a community, you as a regulatory 2
entity, and as a company, we would figure this out.
3 At that time, in 1994, January 18th, this 4
is a direct quote from Robert E. Long, when he was asked, 5
how much will it cost to decommission the plant? 104.7 6
million.
7 Here is a quote, GPU spokesperson, Mary 8
Wells said, we have a detailed plan, in place, to make 9
sure that the money is going to be there. The money is 10 never going to be there, the plant is never going to be 11 built.
12 In 1995 we were one of the groups that sued, 13 at the PUC, to make sure that the taxpayer, the ratepayer, 14 actually the ratepayer didn't have to clean up, but we 15 lost.
16 So, basically, the ratepayer is still on the 17 hook for a plant that operated for 120 days, that really 18 produced no energy for the local community. But it gets 19 better.
20 In February 1998, and for years I became a 21 GPU shareholder. The new revised estimates, the new 22 revised estimates, this is coming from the company, was 23 399 million to decommission the plant, 34 million for 24 non-radiological decommissioning.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 So in 1993 we were at 433, 433 million. It 1
is interesting because the next year, GPU Nuclear reduced 2
their insurance, if you forget this, from one billion to 3
50 million.
4 August 9th, 2000, TMI sold, so this is our 5
third set of ownership since '79. In November of 2001 6
the license was formally changed. In 2006, again, 7
according to the annual plan, the NRC radiological 8
decommissioning plan, if you add it all up, they have 779 9
for radiological decommissioning, 27 for 10 non-radiological decommissioning.
11 Add the numbers up and then you look at what 12 the company has, and they are 246 million dollars under 13 the minimum level needed, under the minimum level needed 14 to decommission, 246 million.
15 Where I come from that is a lot of money.
16 Maybe not in the nuclear world. So you go to the NRC's 17
-- I went to the NRC's website in 2007 and it said, the 18 current radiological decommissioning cost is 805 million 19 radiological, 27 non-radiological.
20 The current amount in the decommissioning 21 fund is 601. Do the math, it is consistently 200 million 22 dollars under the minimum level, under the minimum level.
23 All right. So now we get to 2008, when the 24 market takes a wild turn downward. The cost of 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 decommissioning the plant is 831 million, the company has 1
485 million.
2 So I think you get where I'm going. You can 3
change names, you can change ownership, you can do all 4
this stuff. The one constant is the inability to 5
accurately predict when the plant will be cleaned up, how 6
much it will cost, and who will be left paying for the 7
bailout.
8 I'm not going to get into it but the wild 9
card, here, that is very, very negative, is the fact that 10 since deregulation, the people that own the plant no 11 longer have the opportunity to go to the ratepayer to 12 recover decommissioning.
13 The money is what the money is. In other 14 words, where we are at, right now, is unless the 15 shareholders belly up, there is not enough money.
16 Deregulation, and I cited the number of 17 court cases which I litigated, demonstrate that there is 18 no more rate relief left from the ratepayers. So the 19 money you have is the money you have. It is still 20 inadequate.
21 What is interesting, to me, and if you look 22 at, and I don't know if the NRC actually reads GPU's 23 annual reports. The conundrum has always been this, is 24 that the GPU has to operate, if I understand this, John, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 under a funding target that the NRC sets, right?
1 So the NRC says, here is your minimum 2
funding target. Does the NRC have the ability to compel 3
the utility to raise the money? That is the problem.
4 You can set whatever target you want, you 5
don't have the ability to raise the money. It is a fool's 6
errand.
7 So I said, look, why don't we do this? Why 8
don't we move forward, let's see where we are at today.
9 Let's take your reports. I looked at your reports, let's 10 see where we are at.
11 I have to tell you, it was pretty weird to 12 be 18 years behind the curve, and then give somebody the 13 benefit of the doubt.
14 If, and this is going to go back a while.
15 If you look to what we were told by a guy by the name of 16 Frank
- Standard, Ralph probably remembers him.
17 Unfortunately he has passed away.
18 This is what we were told at the TMI advisory 19 panel, quote, unquote, and I got it from his transcript.
20 And this is how we sold the community to delay 21 decommissioning.
22 If we wait to decommission TMI 2, there will 23 be less risk to our workers, and it will be more cost 24 effective. He also told the TMI advisory panel, and I 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 quote, GPU will not have a problem finding funds to shut 1
both reactors in the next century.
2 So let's fast forward to today. The total 3
minimum level cost, to decommission the plant, is 918 4
million dollars, which is more than it cost to build the 5
plant. Which doesn't factor the cost of one billion that 6
we put in to defuel the plant.
7 So we are now at 1.9 billion dollars, to 8
defuel a plant that operated for 120 days, and I don't 9
mean -- or 90 days, I'm trying to be generous here.
10 So what I'm saying to you is, after 35 years 11 of doing this, let's be honest, you don't have the money.
12 You don't have the technology. You have nowhere to take 13 the waste.
14 The plant is not going to be cleaned up.
15 You can call it whatever you want, you can call it 16 SAFSTOR, because that is what we are calling it now, we 17 are not doing Decom.
18 And we can wait, let's wait until TMI 1 gets 19 taken off-line, which is bizarre, since they are owned 20 by another company. But at the end of the day we are 21 looking at a decommissioning date that has been 22 postponed, consistently, year after year, decade after 23 decade.
24 The accident occurred in '79. We were 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 told, in '93, that the cleanup had been completed. Then 1
we were told, when the plant came off-line in 2014, 2
decommissioning would occur.
3 Then we were told, only two years ago, that 4
decommissioning would occur in 2036. We are in the year 5
2053. The reality is the plant will never be 6
decommissioned.
7 Let's stop talking about decom, or SAFSTOR, 8
it is going to be entombment. There is nowhere to take 9
the waste, there is nowhere for it to go. I mean, I can't 10 believe, 35 years later I'm here, I have to be honest with 11 you, wasting my time on an evening, talking to people, 12 and half of you are going, God please shut up, Eric.
13 And the other half are going, don't shut up, 14 I get that. But the reality is let's be adults. The 15 plant is not going to be cleaned up. It is never going 16 to be cleaned up.
17 18 There is no money there, there is no 19 resource, there is no -- there is nowhere to take the 20 waste.
21 So I want to thank you for coming up tonight 22 and I appreciate your wooden responses, they are the same 23 responses that I have heard, year after year, with 24 different people in different suits.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 41 I know you are coming up. Is it Bruce?
1 That is good. But at the end of the day, what is going 2
to happen here is this. As you will ignore the comments, 3
you will approve this, and we will move forward.
4 And by moving forward I mean moving 5
backward. Thank you for your time.
6 FACILITATOR WATSON: This is Bruce Watson.
7 Eric, I want to thank you for your comments. I think we 8
understand them.
9 One of the basis for the 60 year requirement 10 is that in a normal reactor plant, the radiation doses 11 in the plant will be reduced to about one percent to two 12 percent, of what they originally were when the plant was 13 shut down.
14 Also it was estimated that about the volume 15 of radioactive waste will be reduced to about ten percent 16 of what it really was in the beginning.
17 And so since this plant has been defueled, 18 and that is where that billion dollars I believe went to 19 20 21 MR. PORTZLINE: You just said, a couple of 22 minutes ago, aren't we there at that percent? There is 23 no reason why the plant can't --
24 FACILITATOR WATSON: After 60 years.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 42 MR. PORTZLINE: No, no, no. But you just 1
said there was nothing being released. So if there is 2
nothing being released, you have achieved the standard.
3 The issue was this, we have achieved the 4
standard --
5 FACILITATOR WATSON: No, we haven't 6
reached the standard for unrestricted release of the 7
site.
8 MR. PORTZLINE: So how much is being 9
released, if you have all your figures?
10 FACILITATOR WATSON: Like I said, before, 11 the radioactive material in the plant is monitored, and 12 any releases are monitored, and they are a small fraction 13 of the requirements in 10CFR20.
14 MR. PORTZLINE: Yes. How many First 15 Entergy employees work at TMI 2?
16 FACILITATOR WATSON: I think it is very 17 few.
18 MR. PORTZLINE: It is zero. It is a 19 skeletal crew, nobody is there. But look, good luck 20 monitoring the stuff with nobody there. I mean, I feel 21 better about that. I'm going to move on.
22 FACILITATOR WATSON: Thank you.
23 MR. PORTZLINE: There is a contract with 24 Exelon. Exelon does the monitoring for First Entergy.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 43 This is silliness.
1 FACILITATOR WATSON: So there is a reason 2
for the 60 years. And they can, they can -- this can 3
result in significant savings from the decommissioning 4
fund, if the volumes of radioactive waste are lower. It 5
is the way the rules are written.
6 I invite anybody else to have an opportunity 7
to speak.
8 (Pause for setting up slide show.)
9 FACILITATOR WATSON: All set?
10 MR. PORTZLINE: As soon as it comes up on 11 the screen.
12 FACILITATOR WATSON: Okay.
13 (Pause.)
14 FACILITATOR WATSON: While we are waiting 15 for the computer to boot up, does anybody else have any 16 other questions, or comments for us, on the PSDAR?
17 (No response.)
18 FACILITATOR WATSON: Hearing none, we will 19 wait for the computer to boot up.
20 (Pause.)
21 FACILITATOR WATSON: All set? State your 22 name, please.
23 MR. PORTZLINE: Scott Portzline, Security 24 Consultant to Three Mile Island Alert.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 44 I want to make sure that everybody 1
understands the importance of Three Mile Island. It is 2
the same importance that Gettysburg is to the United 3
States history.
4 And, therefore, the record preservation is 5
of utmost importance, not only for safety and knowledge, 6
but accurate history.
7 And before TMI is decommissioned, the 8
public wants to participate in some of the ground rules.
9 And we think there are some special considerations 10 because of the 1979 accident.
11 I want to go over five or six, I guess it 12 is six issues, very quickly, and then expand on them.
13 This is a presentation that will only be about eight 14 minutes long.
15 The record is incomplete, and that is 16 because high levels of radiation prevented proper 17 investigations of certain equipment malfunctions.
18 The reason is that the man hour exposures 19 was not worth it, at the time of the accident, '79, '80, 20
'81, during those first few years the radiation was too 21 high.
22 And not enough men, with enough hours of 23 exposure left on their sheets.
24 Okay, issue number two, there remained many 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 45 unanswered questions about what went wrong with the 1
components and systems. The NRC's investigators, along 2
with other investigators, including the President's 3
Commission, could not explain numerous malfunctions.
4 Issue number
- three, examining these 5
components would provide further opportunity to increase 6
technical knowledge in the data bases, and historical 7
accuracy is always important.
8 Issue number four, examine for additional 9
evidence of tampering or sabotage.
10 Issue number five, there needs to be a 11 complete inventory of what remains behind at unit 2, and 12 the inventory should be made publicly available.
13 We don't know, for sure, what is there. And 14 it is possible that the companies, and the NRC, is not 15 even aware of the inventories.
16 And then issue number six, certain things 17 should be preserved, and sent to museums, such as the 18 Smithsonian Institution, and the Pennsylvania State 19 Museum.
20 And I will just start with this point to 21 expand on. We don't want to see souvenirs carried out 22 of Three Mile Island by workers. This was a serious 23 accident.
24 It was also a crime scene in the sense that 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 46 the company falsified records of reactor leak rates.
1 And so for a criminal to benefit by the sale of a book, 2
or a souvenir from Three Mile Island, would be wrong, 3
morally.
4 That any profit from such souvenirs should 5
go to the ratepayers, the taxpayers, the businesses, the 6
people who were burdened from the accident.
7 So I can just foresee, some day, people 8
taking a piece of Three Mile Island, a phone, a control 9
panel, a meter, a gauge, and putting it for sale on ebay.
10 And I don't think that would be proper. So 11 there needs to be that sort of control over what leaves 12 that island.
13 So in order to meet all of these objectives 14 the public must be fully engaged. We anticipate 15 additional meetings. I know Eric is very cynical, and 16 I am too, about whether the NRC hears our requests, when 17 they can't answer a simple question of yes or no.
18 So let's expand on issue number one.
19 Radiation preventive and proper investigation. One 20 example of that would be the very point of the loss of 21 coolant, called the PORV, has been unexplained.
22 They took some guesses as to why that stuck 23 open. But it has never been examined, that I'm aware of 24 because the radiation levels were too high.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 47 So that is just one example. And to think 1
we have a loss of coolant accident, and no one knows, with 2
certainty, what caused that. That is kind of 3
surprising, it is 35 years later.
4 Issue number 2,
there are many 5
investigative failures, and I could easily give you a 6
list of 40 or 50. No one knows the exact triggering 7
event.
8 I know that sounds hard to believe, we know 9
that the accident started in the condensate polisher 10 system, but we don't know why. We don't know exactly 11 how.
12 They had some guesses, but they don't know.
13 In fact, when investigators for NASA were working for the 14 President's Commission, went and looked at the 15 condensate polishers, they found out wires had been 16 pulled off of five of the eight terminals. No one at the 17 plant could explain why or how that had occurred.
18 Issue number two for investigative 19 failures. The integrated control system failure, there 20 should not have been a SCRAM that day. The control 21 system, the integrated control system, should have 22 caused a reactor run back three seconds into the event.
23 It didn't happen, there was no explanation 24 as to why that happened. Now, if you tear down Three Mile 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 48 Island without having a second chance to look at this 1
stuff, it would be a huge mistake, I think.
2 An important switch was rewired. This is 3
just another small example. There is no explanation for 4
why a jumper wire was added to a switch. Somebody put 5
that there, nobody knew why. Investigators were 6
suspicious of that event too.
7 A make-up pump failed to start. The one 8
critical pump to start injecting water into the cooling 9
system, before the high pressure injection turns on, did 10 not start. They could only guess as to why, radiation 11 levels were very high at that area, because radioactive 12 coolant went backwards through that pipe.
13 So we need to know where the radioactivity 14 is all throughout this plant. It would help explain the 15 accident, which is still not completely understood.
16 Before destroying the record, investigate 17 these events, and other evidence, which was not covered 18 or understood by previous investigations, that was just 19 five examples.
20 There is criminal evidence.
The 21 President's Commission, and the U.S.
Senate 22 investigations both suspected, and requested, sabotage 23 investigations, because of the suspicious evidence and 24 events.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 49 Further evidence may yet be discovered.
1 There has been more than 120 acts of sabotage and 2
tampering at U.S. nuclear plants. So much so that the 3
FBI issued a warning about that increase in 1983.
4 This is the letter that was sent, I 5
retrieved it from the National Archives. I have done 6
40,000 pages of research at the National Archives, and 7
other public document rooms at the Nuclear Regulatory 8
Commission.
9 10 I probably know more about the first ten 11 minutes of that accident than just about everybody in the 12 United States. So this letter I got from the National 13 Archives saying that there were suspicious events, and 14 that the FBI should investigate. The FBI did not 15 investigate.
16 On the component inventory, this is just an 17 example of a few of the components. It would be 18 necessary to accommodate the public input engagement.
19 We want to understand more about the release paths, and 20 equipment malfunctions
- and, possibly, tampering 21 evidence.
22 Issue number six, again, is the record 23 preservation. So that is the importance of why we need 24 to have additional meetings. That is the conclusion of 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 50 mine.
1 When Mary gets a chance to speak she would 2
like to use the presentation.
3 MR. BUCKLEY: Is there a chance that we can 4
get -- sorry, John Buckley. Can we get a copy of this 5
for the record?
6 MR. PORTZLINE: Yes, I can email it, yes.
7 MR. BUCKLEY: Okay, thank you.
8 FACILITATOR WATSON: So we will put your 9
presentation along with the meeting minutes, in Adams, 10 for public --
11 MR. PORTZLINE: I want to say one other 12 thing. Ralph, when that fire truck comes back, could you 13 tell them it is okay, they don't have to fire hose me, 14 I will behave. Inside joke with Ralph. I think the 15 punch line is obvious.
16 FACILITATOR WATSON: Well, you are a man of 17 your word, you were eight minutes.
18 MR. PORTZLINE: Was I?
19 FACILITATOR WATSON: Yes. Your name and 20 spell it for us so that he --
21 FACILITATOR WATSON: Yes, Mary Stamos, 22 S-T-A-M-O-S, it used to be Osborne, and my husband Ray 23 worked at Three Mile Island before the accident, his 24 stepfather worked there, at Unit 1 and Unit 2. And his 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 51 brother worked there after the accident.
1 Before the -- during the accident I would 2
not let my husband work there again. So the year before 3
the accident, 1978 in May, one of his coworkers stopped 4
by my house and told me that they were taking so many 5
shortcuts, at Three Mile Island Unit 2, that it was never 6
going to make it.
7 So that is a thing that kind of put me to 8
the alert. And on this thing, on what we are doing here, 9
the radioactivity inventory and mapping, we want to know 10 what to expect.
11 We want to know how you plan to contain any 12 radiation during decommissioning. And we want to be 13 able to monitor your progress and see how it matches with 14 your planning.
15 This is a new event in history, and we would 16 like you to get it right for a change. The radioactivity 17 inventory and mapping will help to understand the 18 transport of radioactive materials from the core, and the 19 release pathways during the accident.
20 The debate still remains. Here is another 21 example of the release pathways. The reactor building, 22 fuel handling building, auxiliary building.
23 Here is another example of release 24 pathways. An issue raised by David Lochabum, of the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 52 Union of Concerned Scientists, he said a pathway that I 1
would have loved to examine, when I was an expert witness 2
in the TMI 2 case, involved the unit 2 condenser.
3 There was compelling evidence of a primary 4
to secondary tube leak in at least one of the two steam 5
generators. And this one, chemical inventory and 6
mapping.
7 What is also necessary is the pipes, tanks, 8
and the ponds. Underground components, also, and 9
mapping the pipes, tanks, drilled wells, for sampling.
10 And there was confusion, at Vermont Yankee, 11 about underground piping. They didn't even know about 12 it. And this is kind of interesting. When my husband 13 worked there for holidays, and stuff you know, I would 14 cook a ham, or a turkey, or something for Christmas.
15 And I had heard people were drinking and 16 smoking illegal drugs during these party things, 17 on-site. And one time, months after the accident, a 18 waitress from one of the bars and restaurants, down near 19 TMI had called me.
20 I don't know how she even knew who I was.
21 And told me a lot of people were going there, getting 22 drunk, and then going to work doing cleanup at TMI.
23 So the issues are -- and even security 24 stuff, when people would go on-site, some of those guys 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 53 had drugs on them, when they were going to work. So who 1
knows what was going on with that.
2 Now, the other thing, what I want you to 3
know, because many of you weren't here, or involved with 4
this during the accident, we had numerous public meetings 5
with the NRC, GPU, Med Ed, all over the area.
6 And when the Amish would attend the meeting 7
they repeatedly said that you build a house without an 8
outhouse. Now, Yucca Mountain is built on an earthquake 9
fault, which is why it hasn't been going on, or why it 10 is not a waste site.
11 Three Mile Island is also on an earthquake 12 fault. We had one, I think, in '83 or '84, starting in 13 Lancaster County, going under Three Mile Island, under 14 my house, to the Harrisburg East Mall.
15 And the earthquake thing really is a scary 16 thing, and I can't believe that, you know, unit 1 is still 17 being allowed to operate, especially since the Fukoshima 18 earthquake and tsunami thing that happened.
19 But I'm really concerned about that. I'm 20 concerned about spent fuel pools, and the cracking of 21 pipes underground, and other places, how are you going 22 to fix it, how soon does it take for you guys to find out 23 that there is a problem.
24 And basically that is it. But I do want to 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 54 tell you, also, I have some of my stuff on the Adams thing.
1 I think the name was Mary Stamos Osborne, I'm not sure.
2 But I have photos of mutated flowers, double headed cow, 3
all kinds of horrible things that have happened to those 4
of us living near Three Mile Island for the last 34 and 5
a half years.
6 And my flowers continue to mutate. I go to 7
grocery stores, or farmers markets locally, and find 8
mutated vegetables. I did organic gardening ever since 9
I lived there in 1970.
10 And I'm still having trouble, lately, 11 growing vegetables in my yard, even though I had a 12 truckload of soil brought in just to cover it up.
13 So the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, not 14 necessarily you guys, but the ones that I have dealt with, 15 for all of these years, either don't know what the truth 16 is, or they are lying to each other, and they are starting 17 to believe their own lies.
18 We had radiation systems, classic bomb 19 tests fallout from Utah, Nevada, the soldiers out in the 20 Pacific Ocean. We had metallic taste, which is the most 21 bizarre thing that I ever experienced.
22 I will never forget it, that is why I'm still 23 here, believing and knowing what the heck is going on.
24 We had hair loss. We evacuated for over a week, came 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 55 home, gave my son a bath, and the hair was in the tub, 1
and you could see a bald spot on his head.
2 I brushed my daughter's hair, when she was 3
going back to school, and so much of it came out in the 4
hairbrush, it freaked me out.
5 And then other people had, and we had 6
reddening skin, the burning, and stuff like that, the 7
eyes. And people all over the area, not just five miles, 8
but 10, 20, 30, 40 miles away had metallic taste on 9
certain occasions.
10 And it was almost all during the accident.
11 Some of it was a week or so before. And the soldiers out 12 west, Utah, Nevada, and citizens who lived there, during 13 the bomb fallout finally had a settlement.
14 The Government finally paid them a few years 15 ago over one billion dollars for health damages related 16 to their experience. And here, at Three Mile Island, 3.9 17 million was awarded to 80 people, and another 15 million 18 was awarded to another class of citizens that had filed 19 for lawsuits.
20 The 15 million wasn't totally public, but 21 I found it in one of the documents that I just read 22 recently. And the people living within five miles of 23 Three Mile Island, 50 percent or more of them, moved 24 following the accident. And how would the health 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 56 department ever follow them up?
1 If nothing happened to you would you have 2
moved away from Three Mile Island? So I just want to put 3
that in there, because people have lied repeatedly.
4 And the rems, and rads, and all of that stuff 5
that they are talking about, it doesn't take 500 rads just 6
to kill a person, I mean, it will kill them.
7 You can have three rems, or even less, or five 8
rems, which is what the metallic taste range is supposed 9
to be, and you can get sick, and you can die, but you won't 10 die right away, you won't die within a week, unless you 11 are already sick of something.
12 But it could take 30, 40, 50 years. So people 13 who are doing this, and I don't even know if the Nuclear 14 Regulatory Commission has any health physicists, or 15 anything like that.
16 But they had better start learning, because 17 radioactivity is mass random, premeditated murder 18 according to Dr. John Gothman. And that is it.
19 FACILITATOR WATSON: This is Bruce Watson, 20 again. I just wanted to make a couple of comments from 21 your presentation. It was very nice.
22 We do require a
radiological 23 characterization of the entire plant site to be put into 24 the license termination plan. Now, that is a ways off.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 57 But the entire radiological characterization of the 1
plant has to be done in order for us to approve the license 2
termination plan.
3 MS. STAMOS: Is that an aerial sort of a 4
thing? Because I remember when the airplanes came by and 5
6 FACILITATOR WATSON: No, I'm talking about 7
all the structures.
8 MS. STAMOS: Okay.
9 FACILITATOR WATSON: The soils around the 10 plant, all the interior buildings, do that type of 11 radiological characterization as part of the license 12 termination plan, okay?
13 Secondly, with respect to drug use, and 14 other things, the NRC did put rules out in, I believe, 15 the late
- 1980s, early 1990's, called a
16 fitness-for-duties rules. And it required the 17 licensees, as well as ourselves, to participate in random 18 drug testing, and alcohol testing.
19 And it is a very random event, and it is a 20 requirement that they implement those types of programs, 21 and those are reviewed by the NRC, okay?
22 MR. EPSTEIN: The FBI just broke up a 23 methamphetamine ring at Peach Bottom, that was 24 investigated by the FBI. So I appreciate now having 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 58 something in place.
1 FACILITATOR WATSON: Well, thank you. Are 2
there any other questions, or comments? Well, I will 3
just make a few concluding remarks.
4 5
I just wanted to point out that there are 6
17 power reactors in decommissioning right now, in the 7
U.S. Four of those are in active decommissioning. One 8
is in Lacrosse, in Wisconsin; Humboldt Bay in California, 9
and Zion 1 and 2, in Illinois.
10 There are, if you take that four active 11 decommissioning and 13 that are in SAFSTOR. Most of 12 those are at multi-unit facilities, just like TMI 2.
13 I think TMI 2 does represent a special case, 14 and I respect the fact that there is still a lot of public 15 interest in it, and I expect that to continue.
16 MR. EPSTEIN: Bruce, can you clarify 17 something? When you say Zion 1 and 2, can you compare 18 it to TMI? Zion 1 and 2, which is owned by Exelon, had 19 its license transferred to environmental solutions.
20 Let's just be factually correct tonight.
21 This is not a multi-unit site, this is one unit, owned 22 by First
- Entergy, one unit owned by
- Exelon, 23 responsibility for decommissioning is segregated and 24 apart.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 59 FACILITATOR WATSON: Well, I appreciate 1
your comment. But my point is that there are four plants 2
that are actively decontaminating right now, or in 3
decommissioning. That is all my statement was.
4 MR. EPSTEIN: No, but you said Zion is a 5
multi-unit plant.
6 7
FACILITATOR WATSON: It is a two unit 8
plant, correct.
9 MR. EPSTEIN: But it is different, you have 10 different ownership of -- there are different segregated 11 decommissioning --
12 FACILITATOR WATSON: I wasn't going into 13 the ownership issue, I'm just saying there are four 14 plants in active decommissioning, there are 13 in SAFSTOR 15 at this point.
16 We have had four plants join that group this 17 year, and I just heard another announcement that Vermont 18 Yankee will be joining at the end of 2014.
19 So my point is that we have a lot of 20 experience in decommissioning. We expect that we will 21 continue to be active in the decommissioning world, 22 regulating the decommissioning.
23 We have extensive experience with it, 24 having terminated eleven sites, and we only terminate 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 60 those licenses when they demonstrate to us that the 1
unrestricted release criteria, which is what all the 2
plants have gone for.
3 We also do an independent verification to 4
confirm that they are meeting those requirements, and 5
that we only terminate the license when those license 6
requirements are demonstrated to us.
7 And, finally, that our inspection program 8
will continue, and it does continue, until the license 9
of these facilities is terminated. And to make sure that 10 things are safe and secure at these facilities.
11 I would like to remind you that there --
12 MR. EPSTEIN: Can you edit -- let me just 13 say this, because we are getting into silliness here.
14 More and more plants are being closed down, whether it 15 is Vermont Yankee, whether it is San Onofree, whether it 16 is Crystal River.
17 My name is Eric Epstein from Three Mile 18 Island Alert. You say that you have a lot of experience 19 in this. Where is the waste going? TMI 2 was unique, 20 it went to INEL. Where does the waste go?
21 FACILITATOR WATSON: The low level waste, 22 right now, is going to a site in Utah, Energy Solutions 23 Site in Utah. And, recently, a site opened up, Waste 24 Consultant Services, I believe it is called, in Texas, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 61 which accepts the type B and C waste.
1 And so, yes, there is a facility for those 2
wastes. Unfortunately there is no high level waste 3
repository, and I respectfully would ask that you talk 4
to your federal government about that, because it is up 5
to Congress to decide what goes on with that.
6 MR. EPSTEIN: You sold us a plant in 69, and 7
you said this issue would be solved. It is 2013, dude, 8
2013. There is no site, there is never going to be a 9
site. There is nuclear waste fairy.
10 FACILITATOR WATSON: Well, I would just 11 encourage you to talk to your elected public officials 12 about that.
13 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, why do you generate a 14 product that has no place to go? Would you buy a home 15 if your toilet had no sewer? It is asinine, 35 years of 16 this, and it is the same answer, dude.
17 FACILITATOR WATSON: I understand your 18 question, or your comment. We do have the critique 19 sheets, back on the back table, if anybody is interested 20 in providing those, and mailing those in to us.
21 Sarah will have the address for you. One 22 more question, or comment?
23 MR. PORTZLINE: Scott Portzline. There 24 was an electrician found dead at Millstone last week.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 62 Does anybody know why she died?
1 FACILITATOR WATSON: That is something 2
that I wouldn't be involved in. Any other questions?
3 Well, hearing none, then we will close the meeting down.
4 Thank you very much for attending, we 5
appreciate the use of your time in attending.
6 (Whereupon, at 8:20 p.m.,
the 7
above-entitled matter was concluded.)
8 9
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