Text

Summary of Performance Assessment Meeting for San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station
	ML031640140
Person / Time
Site:	San Onofre
Issue date:	05/16/2003
From:	Clay Johnson; NRC/RGN-IV/DRP
To:	Ray H; Southern California Edison Co
References
	Download: ML031640140 (152)
	v • d • e

ANNUAL ASSESSMENT MEETING Nuclear Regulatory Commission Region IV

NRC Meeting Purpose

Meeting with Licensee and Public

Inform Public of Plant Performance

NRC Meeting Guidelines

Registration Table

Questions and Answers

Feedback Forms

Handouts

Regional Organization Regional Administrator Region IV Director Director Division of Reactor Projects Division of Reactor Safety Deputy Director Chief Chief Chief Division of Reactor Projects EMB OB PS Chief Chief Chief Chief Chief Chief ranch Branch Branch Branch Branch Branch A B C D E F San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station

Station (SONGS)

Nuclear Regulatory Commission Region IV

NRC PERFORMANCE GOALS

Maintain public safety and protect the environment

Enhance public confidence

Improve:

- Effectiveness

- Efficiency

- Realism of processes and decision making

Reduce unnecessary regulatory burden

at the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station

Meeting Agenda

REGULATORY OVERSIGHT

FINDINGS AND ASSESSMENTS

ADDITIONAL FOCUS AREAS

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Overall NRC Effort 3280 2928 6712 Headquarters - 6712 Regional - 3280 Total hours - 12920 Resident - 2928

Resident Inspectors

Stationed at the plant

Prompt response capability

2928 hours0.0339 days 0.813 hours 0.00484 weeks 0.00111 months of oversight

Regional Inspectors

Specialized

Inspection teams

3280 hours0.038 days 0.911 hours 0.00542 weeks 0.00125 months of oversight

Program NRCS PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY Overall AS A RESULT OF CIVILIAN NUCLEAR REACTOR Safety OPERATION Mission rategic Performance REACTOR RADIATION PLANT Areas SAFETY SAFETY SECURITY SAFETY CORNERSTONES

NRC Oversight Activities

Based on a logical and sound framework

Provide assurance plants are:

- Operating safely

- Complying with regulations

Inspections focused on key safety areas

Objective indicators of performance

Assessment program triggers regulatory actions

Strategic Performance areas Safety Cornerstones aseline Inspection Performance Indicator Results Results Significance Significance Threshold Threshold Action Matrix Regulatory Response

aseline Inspection Program Conducted at all plants Gathers objective evidence of plant safety Focuses on safety-significant:

- systems

- components

- activities

- events

aseline Inspection Program Inspection reports describe significant findings and non-compliance Inspection reports are publicly accessible www.NRC.gov/reading-rm/adams.html

Supplemental Inspections Review events for significance Follow-up significant inspection findings Determine causes of performance declines to ensure effective corrective actions Provide for graduated response

SAFETY SIGNIFICANCE GREEN - very low WHITE - low to moderate YELLOW - substantial RED - high

Program Licensee monitors key safety parameters Data supplied to NRC quarterly Data verified by NRC

Performance Indicators

Performance indicator results and other assessment information available on the NRCs public web site:

www.NRC.gov/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/

SANO2/sano2_chart.html www.NRC.gov/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/

SANO3/sano3_chart.html

Performance Indicators Unplanned Scrams per 7000 critical hours 2Q/02 3Q/02 4Q/02 0 Thresholds:

5 White >3.0, 10 15 Yellow >6.0, 20 Red >25.0 25 nplanned scrams per 7000 critical hours 2Q/02 3Q/02 4Q/02 ctual scrams 1 0 1 ritical hours 1206.2 2190.4 2124.1 dicator value 0.9 0.9 2.7

Key Aspects of the Assessment Program Objective review of licensee performance Action Matrix to determine agency response in three areas:

- Inspection

- Management Involvement

- Regulatory Actions Plant specific assessment letters Information on NRC public web site

Performance Summary Plant Specific Data ame of Plant: San Onofre Nuclear Generation Station lant Operator: Southern California Edison umber of Units: 2 (Operating) eactor Type & Vendor: Pressurized Water Reactor/

Combustion Engineering ocation: San Clemente, CA ower Output (electrical): 2260 Mwe (Total) ource of Circulating Water: Pacific Ocean

Major Plant Activities in 2002 Inspected by NRC IEB 2002-02 Reactor Pressure Vessel Head and Vessel Penetration Nozzle Inspection Programs performed during 2002 refueling outage Installation of additional security barriers

Inspection Results NRC and Licensee identified inspection findings were of very low safety significance

- A number of human performance issues were identified during this assessment period

- Licensee is addressing these issues

Reactor Radiation Safeguards Safety Safety Occupational Public tiating Mitigating Barrier Emergency Physical Radiation Radiation vents Systems Integrity Preparedness Protection Safety Safety Most Significant Inspection Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings GREEN this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter this quarter No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings 2 this quarter GREEN this quarter this quarter GREEN GREEN this quarter No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings No Findings this quarter GREEN this quarter this quarter GREEN this quarter this quarter Miscellaneous findings

Reactor Radiation Safeguards Safety Safety Occupational Public tiating Mitigating Barrier Emergency Physical Radiation Radiation vents Systems Integrity Preparedness Protection Safety Safety Performance Indicators lanned Emergency Reactor Drill/Exercise RETS/ODCM Occupational Protected Area rams AC Power Coolant Performance Radiological Exposure Equipment System System Effluent Control Unavailability Activity Effectiveness ERO Drill Personnel ms With High Pressure Participation Screening ss Of Reactor Injection Program mal Heat Coolant moval System System Alert and Unavailability Leakage FFD/Personnel Notification Reliability Heat Removal System lanned Program System ower Unavailability anges Residual Heat Removal System Unavailability Safety System Functional Failures

Performance Indicator Results All performance indicators within the Licensee Control Band during 2002

Assessment Conclusion Licensee effectively managed:

- Reactor safety

- Radiation safety

- Plant security San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station operated in a manner that protected the health and safety of the public

LICENSEE RESPONSE Additional Focus Areas

NRC Responds As-Needed

Mandated Licensee Actions

Implemented Emergency Plans

Nuclear Industry Issues

Reactor Vessel Head Penetration Inspection

Security at Nuclear Power Plants

Inspection Davis Besse - Significant reactor vessel head degradation identified near one of its penetrations.

- NRC Bulletin 2002-02 Reactor Pressure Vessel Head & Vessel Penetration Nozzles NRC Specialist monitored SONGS reactor vessel head inspections during Unit 2 & Unit 3 outages

- No degradation identified

ecurity at Nuclear Power Plants Nuclear Regulatory Commission:

Has expanded involvement with FBI, law enforcement and other intelligence agencies

Communicates frequently with office of Homeland Security, DOD, FAA, FEMA, and others

Continues to work in concert with:

- Licensees

- State and local officials

NRC created Office of Nuclear Security and Incident Response (NSIR)

Threat Advisory and Protective Measures System:

- Communicates threats potentially affecting NRC licensees

- Corresponds to color-coded Homeland Security Presidential Directive

- Identifies specific actions to be taken by NRC licensees for each threat level

Security at Nuclear Power Plants

Top-to-bottom review of Security Program

Issuance of Orders/Interim Compensatory Measures (ICM)

Verification of licensee actions regarding ICMs

Nuclear facilities are far ahead of other industries with regard to the level of security

Power Uprates

License Renewal

Contacting the NRC

Report an Emergency:

(301) 816-5100 (collect)

Report a Safety Concern:

(800) 695-7403 or Allegation@nrc.gov

General Information or questions:

www.nrc.gov Select What we do for Public Affairs

Contacts for Additional Information

Regional Public Affairs Officer

- Victor Dricks

- Phone: (817) 860 - 8128

State Liaison Officer

- William (Bill) Maier

- Phone: (817) 860 - 8267

Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

Title:

Annual Assessment Meeting for the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Docket Number: (not applicable)

Location: San Clemente, California Date: Thursday, April 3, 2003 Work Order No.: NRC-N/A Pages 1-101 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers

1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +

4 ANNUAL ASSESSMENT MEETING FOR THE 5 SAN ONOFRE NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION 6 + + + + +

7 PUBLIC MEETING 8 + + + + +

9 THURSDAY, 10 APRIL 3, 2003 11 + + + + +

12 SAN CLEMENTE, CALIFORNIA 13 + + + + +

14 The meeting was held at 7:00 p.m. at the 15 Country Inn, 35 Via Pico Plaza, San Clemente, 16 California.

17 PRESENT 18 FOR THE U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION:

19 CLAUDE E. JOHNSON, Chief, Project Branch C 20 Division of Reactor Projects 21 CLYDE OSTERHOLTZ, Senior Resident Inspector 22 Division of Reactor Projects 23 MARK A. SITEK, Resident Inspector 24 Division of Reactor Projects 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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2 1 ART HOWELL, Director, Division of Reactor Projects 2 HERB BERKOW, Project Director, Division of Licensing 3 Project Management, Office of Nuclear Reactor 4 Regulation, Rockville, Maryland 5 STEPHEN DEMBEK, Chief, Project Directorate IV 6 Division of Licensing Project Management 7 Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 8 Rockville, Maryland 9 VICTOR DRICKS, Public Affairs Officer 10 STEFANI NEIDHOLDT, Site Secretary 11 San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station 12 13 FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON:

14 DWIGHT NUNN, Vice President of Engineering 15 and Technical Services 16 RAY WALDO, Plant Manager 17 JOE WAMBOLD, Vice President of Nuclear Generation 18 19 ALSO PRESENT:

20 BRIAN PERRY, Chairman, Interjurisdictional Planning 21 Committee, San Juan Capistrano Emergency Planning 22 Office 23 JIM RUSSELL, Emergency Planning Office 24 City of San Clemente 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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3 1 ALSO PRESENT:

2 LEN HAYES, Orange County Emergency Management 3 DON MONAHAN, California State Parks and Recreation 4 PETE LAWRENCE, Oceanside Fire Department 5 JAN SENER, Chairperson, Public Information Officer 6 SONGS Emergency Center 7 JOE CRAMER, United States Marine Corps 8 Camp Pendleton, California 9

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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4 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 SPEAKERS PAGE 3 Russell Hoffman 39 4 Sharon Hoffman 42 5 Dan Farrell 54 6 R.K. Dickie 56 7 Lyn Harris Hicks 60 8 Marianne Brown 64 9 Steve Netherby 72 10 Richard Redfield 77 11 Bill Freeman 81 12 Ricardo Nicol 85 13 Pam Patterson 88 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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5 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (7:00 p.m.)

3 MR. JOHNSON: Good evening and welcome to 4 the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission's 5 Annual Assessment Meeting for the San Onofre Nuclear 6 Generating Station.

7 My name is Claude Johnson. I am the 8 Branch Chief for Branch C, Division of Reactor 9 Projects, in the Region IV office in Arlington, Texas.

10 My branch has oversight responsibility for the San 11 Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. I am very pleased 12 to be here with you today, and we appreciate your 13 attendance here tonight.

14 The purpose of this meeting is to publicly 15 present the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's assessment 16 of the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station's safety 17 performance for the past year. This is done at the 18 end of each annual inspection cycle to publicly and 19 formally inform our licensees of the results of our 20 safety performance assessments.

21 Before we get to the results, I have a few 22 announcements and some meeting guidelines that we'd 23 like to address. You may have noticed the 24 registration table as you came in. We have attendance 25 sheets back there we'd like for you to sign up. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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6 1 also if you have any questions that you may want to 2 present tonight, to sign up on that list and we'll go 3 in that particular order as Stephanie, Ms. Neidholdt, 4 will be reading the list after we complete this during 5 our question-and-answer period for each of you that 6 sign that list back there. So we appreciate if you'd 7 do that.

8 Following our formal presentation, we have 9 a question-and-answer period. And, if you wish, 10 please use the question-and-answer forms on the 11 registration table to fill out those particular forms.

12 And if it's a question or answer that we can't 13 address, we will formally respond to you by mail.

14 This will allow us at least formally to capture the 15 topic of your questions.

16 As you can see, we also have a court 17 reporter here tonight. He will be recording the 18 meeting and this will help us answer any questions 19 accurately that you may have that we'll capture when 20 we get back so we won't miss or leave out anything 21 that you may ask us.

22 In addition, each of you should have found 23 a feedback form on your chairs. If you did not get 24 one, please go back to the table there and we'll 25 provide you one for this meeting. We would appreciate NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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7 1 you filling it out because we do value your comments 2 and we appreciate hearing from you as it helps us 3 improve our processes. Also, if you have any 4 questions to which you would like formal response, 5 please include them on the forms.

6 There should be a list also that you may 7 want to put your name and address and everything on so 8 we can make sure that we can call you in some type of 9 order when we end this session.

10 We also have handouts in the back of the 11 room. We have a limited supply, so if you want to 12 know a little bit more about the NRC, we have them at 13 the back of the room on the table there.

14 This pretty much concludes our 15 administrative portion of the meeting but, before I 16 continue with the NRC's responsibilities and the main 17 agenda, I want to introduce the other NRC 18 representatives here tonight with me.

19 To my right, Mr. Clyde Osterholtz. He 20 works for me as the NRC Senior Resident Inspector at 21 the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. He's been 22 assigned to the site for approximately two years.

23 Running the slides, Mr. Mark Sitek. He's 24 also a resident inspector here at the site, and he's 25 been assigned at the San Onofre Station here for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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8 1 approximately one year.

2 In the audience, we have Mr. Art Howell, 3 who is the Director for the Division of Reactor 4 Projects in Region IV office in Arlington, Texas. Mr.

5 Howell has oversight responsibility of the project 6 branches that oversees the inspection program at all 7 the nuclear reactor facilities in Region IV.

8 Also in the audience we have Mr. Herb 9 Berkow, Project Director, Division of Licensing 10 Project Management, Office of Nuclear Reactor 11 Regulation in Rockville, Maryland; Mr. Stephen Dembek, 12 Chief, Project Directorate IV, Division of Licensing 13 Project Management, Office of Nuclear Reactor 14 Regulation in Rockville, Maryland; Mr. Vic Dricks, 15 Public Affairs Officer for the Region IV office in 16 Arlington, Texas. And at the rear, we have Mrs.

17 Stefani Neidholdt, the Site Secretary, for the 18 resident staff at the San Onofre Nuclear Generating 19 Station. Ms. Neidholdt will be calling each person 20 that has signed up on the list there in the back in 21 order to add into this presentation.

22 Mr. Dwight Nunn is the Southern California 23 Edison's official spokesman here tonight. Mr. Nunn is 24 the Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services 25 for the Southern California Edison Company San Onofre NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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9 1 Generating Station.

2 Mr. Nunn, would you please introduce your 3 staff.

4 MR. NUNN: Also on the San Onofre team 5 here with me tonight is Ray Waldo, who's the Station 6 Manager at San Onofre. And Joe Wambold, who's the 7 Vice President of Generation. We're all co-equals in 8 running San Onofre.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Nunn. Now I 10 would like to acknowledge any state and local 11 officials who are here tonight. I have a list. I'll 12 call -- as I call your name, would you please stand.

13 Mr. Brian Perry, Chairman, 14 Interjurisdictional Planning Committee at San Juan 15 Capistrano Emergency Planning Office. Thank you, sir.

16 Mr. Jim Russell, Emergency Planning 17 Office, City of San Clemente.

18 Mr. Len Hayes, Orange County Emergency 19 Management. Thank you, sir.

20 Don Monahan, California State Parks and 21 Recreation.

22 Mr. Pete Lawrence, Oceanside Fire 23 Department. Thank you, sir.

24 Jan Sener, Chairperson, Public Information 25 Officer, SONGS Emergency Center.

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10 1 I'm not sure if Mr. Joe Cramer's here yet.

2 When he shows up, Mr. Joe Cramer, he's with United 3 States Marine Corps, Camp Pendleton. His role is he 4 oversees United States Marine Corps, Camp Pendleton 5 involvement in e-planning.

6 At the end of this meeting, I along with 7 the other NRC representatives will be available to 8 meet with you and any members of the press who wish to 9 speak with us.

10 Before I discuss our assessment results, 11 I want to briefly discuss the NRC's role.

12 The mission of the Nuclear Regulatory 13 Commission is to protect the public health and safety, 14 and the environment from the effects of radiation from 15 nuclear reactors, materials, and waste facilities. We 16 carry out this mission by policy formulation, 17 rulemaking, and oversight. To make sure that we 18 effectively meet our mission, we have established four 19 performance goals. I want to highlight two of those 20 goals.

21 First, as you can see, our primary goal is 22 to maintain safety and protect the environment. This 23 goal is foremost in everything we do.

24 Second, as public servants, we also want 25 to enhance public confidence. We believe that this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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11 1 goal is best achieved by making ourselves available to 2 discuss relevant issues with the local community.

3 That's why we are here this afternoon -- evening.

4 The other goals, as you can see, are 5 improve efficiency, effectiveness, and our processes 6 for decision-making, and also to reduce unnecessary 7 regulatory burden.

8 Specifically, we are here tonight to talk 9 to you about San Onofre Generating Station's safety 10 performance. Formally, this is a meeting between 11 Southern Edison and the NRC to discuss the plant's 12 safety performance with public observation. In 13 addition, the presentation is intended to increase 14 public understanding of the Nuclear Regulatory 15 Commission and it is, therefore, being directed to the 16 public.

17 Our presentation tonight is divided up 18 into four sections. First, we want to provide an 19 overview of the NRC's role in the regulatory oversight 20 process.

21 Second, we will describe our inspection 22 findings and how they factor into our assessment using 23 the regulatory oversight process. At that point, Mr.

24 Nunn will have the opportunity to comment on the 25 assessment.

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12 1 After Mr. Nunn's comments, we have a short 2 presentation on areas we feel may be of some interest 3 to you. These areas required additional NRC attention 4 during the past year. Then we will open up the 5 meeting to questions and answers.

6 With that, I will proceed into the 7 presentation.

8 During the assessment period, the NRC 9 provided approximately 12,920 hours0.0106 days 0.256 hours 0.00152 weeks 3.5006e-4 months of independent 10 regulatory oversight of the activities at the San 11 Onofre Generating Station. This came from three 12 different sections of the NRC: Our headquarters 13 office of the Nuclear Reactor Regulation, the NRC 14 Region IV office, and the resident inspectors.

15 The Office of the Nuclear Reactor 16 Regulation used 6,712 hours on reviewing license 17 change requests and supporting regional inspection 18 efforts for the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station.

19 The license, which includes technical specifications, 20 controls the terms of plant operation and assures that 21 the plant will be operated safely.

22 The two resident inspectors stationed at 23 the plant conduct various inspections required by the 24 Regulatory Oversight process and monitor critical 25 activities on a daily basis. By stationing residents NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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13 1 at the plant, they are available if needed for prompt 2 emergency response. During the recent assessment 3 period, the resident inspectors provided approximately 4 2,928 hours0.0107 days 0.258 hours 0.00153 weeks 3.53104e-4 months of oversight.

5 As part of our routine and baseline 6 inspection program, we also send technical specialists 7 or, in some cases, we send teams of technical 8 specialists to the site to perform reviews in their 9 areas of expertise (such as radiation protection, 10 emergency preparedness, fire protection, and 11 engineering inspections). The regional technical 12 specialists provided approximately 3,280 hours0.00324 days 0.0778 hours 4.62963e-4 weeks 1.0654e-4 months of 13 oversight. These efforts included infrequently 14 performed baseline inspections and emergent efforts.

15 And when I say "infrequently," it's like when a fire 16 protection inspection is performed or the engineering 17 inspection that's conducted.

18 All of this inspection effort is part of 19 the NRC's comprehensive reactor oversight program.

20 The program is designed to ensure that NRC's overall 21 safety mission is accomplished at nuclear reactors.

22 The program is divided into three strategic 23 performance areas: Reactor safety, radiation safety, 24 and plant security.

25 To measure plant performance in these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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14 1 three broad strategic performance areas, the oversight 2 program focuses on seven specific "Cornerstones" which 3 support the safety of plant operations in three broad 4 strategic areas:

5 Here we have the cornerstones. I'll just 6 go over the seven cornerstones. They're not listed in 7 the slide here, but they're initiating events, 8 mitigating systems, occupational radiation safety, 9 physical protection, barrier integrity, emergency 10 preparedness, and public radiation safety.

11 Throughout the assessment period -- cycle 12 -- various inspections are conducted to evaluate the 13 licensee's performance in each of these strategic 14 performance areas. Congress receives reports on the 15 plant's performance in these strategic areas.

16 We have established regulations and 17 license requirements that set the safety standards for 18 reactor safety, radiation safety, and plant security.

19 Our oversight program is based on a logical framework 20 that focuses on risk-significant plant systems and 21 activities. The program provides assurance that the 22 plants are operating safely by ensuring that they are 23 complying with the regulations. This is done through 24 inspections and monitoring objective indicators of 25 performance. The results of the assessment program NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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15 1 will then trigger regulatory actions.

2 The process is illustrated in the flow 3 chart you see on the slide. Our inspection results 4 and performance indicator results, which are focused 5 on safety areas, are used to assess safety performance 6 and determine necessary regulatory actions.

7 Our baseline inspection program is 8 conducted at all plants and provides most of the 9 inspection results. Through the baseline inspection 10 program, we gather objective evidence of plant safety 11 in every strategic performance area. The program 12 focuses on safety-significant, components, activities, 13 and events. The inspection results can have varied 14 safety significance which may reach one of our 15 significant thresholds. When this occurs, we use the 16 action matrix to determine the appropriate regulatory 17 response. And our policy -- we didn't have a place to 18 put the poster. It's at the back back there, but I'd 19 be glad to discuss the action matrix with you, any 20 interested individuals, at the end of this meeting.

21 There's nowhere really to post it up here, so I 22 apologize for that.

23 The results of our inspections are 24 documented in quarterly inspection reports. These 25 reports describe the various inspections performed by NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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16 1 the resident inspectors and the regional-based 2 technical specialists. When a violation of NRC 3 regulation is identified, the violation or finding is 4 documented in the section of the report describing the 5 inspection. These inspection reports are publicly 6 accessible. The website is listed on the slide.

7 The NRC reviews events for significance.

8 Significant events, significant inspection findings, 9 and safety performance declines have the potential to 10 trigger significant thresholds. When this occurs, the 11 NRC responds with event follow-up or supplemental 12 inspections. The goal of these additional inspections 13 is to determine the cause of the performance decline 14 and to ensure that effective corrective actions have 15 been taken. Our program provides for a gradual 16 increase in NRC's response as safety significance 17 increases.

18 Significant events, significant findings, 19 and safety performance declines are given a color code 20 based on their safety significance. For example, 21 Green issues have very low safety significance and do 22 not require further NRC follow-up. We speak of them 23 as being within the licensee's control bond from the 24 matrix -- action matrix that I spoke about to you 25 earlier. It's back on the back wall. On the other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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17 1 hand, Red issues denote a high safety significance and 2 receive the most significant NRC response. As the 3 safety significance increases, the regulatory response 4 increases.

5 Each licensee monitors the performance of 6 their plants and provides performance indicators to 7 the NRC. Specific plant performance data is required 8 by the NRC to construct the required performance 9 indicators. The licensee provides performance 10 indicator information to the NRC once a quarter. This 11 allows us to monitor plant performance. We also 12 verify that the data is accurate by sampling data used 13 by the licensee to report this information.

14 Performance indicator results and other 15 assessment information are available on the websites 16 that you see there.

17 As an example of a performance indicator, 18 the reactor safety area is the number of unplanned 19 scrams (or number of unplanned reactor trips or rapid 20 shutdowns) per 7000 critical hours of operation, where 21 "critical" is used in the sense of normal operation of 22 the reactor. Similar to inspection findings, you can 23 see that the performance criteria have been developed 24 for each safety significance level, and you can see 25 the thresholds to the right over there -- to your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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18 1 right, my left. In this example, licensee performance 2 is green, or what we call the licensee response band.

3 To summarize, we review licensee safety 4 performance by monitoring the performance indicators 5 and evaluating inspection findings. Depending on 6 these results, we have preplanned agency actions. We 7 have two posters that include more detail about our 8 plan for real-time regulatory response to declining 9 safety performance. Every six months, we write a 10 safety performance assessment letter and, annually, we 11 hold public meetings like this to discuss the results 12 with the public. As discussed earlier, safety 13 performance information for each site is available on 14 the NRC public web.

15 The next few slides provide the results of 16 our assessment of the San Onofre Generating Station's 17 safety performance.

18 This slide is basically plant-specific 19 data. As you can see, the name of the plant, San 20 Onofre Generating Stations; the operator, Southern 21 Edison; number of units, two operating units; reactor 22 type and vendor, which is a pressurized water 23 reactor/combustion engineering. Just basic data 24 there.

25 Next slide, please.

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19 1 In 2002, the NRC inspected several major 2 activities performed by the licensee at the San Onofre 3 Generating Station. These included mandated reactor 4 vessel head inspections and security-related 5 activities that were implemented to enhance the 6 licensee's security program.

7 MR. HOWELL: Claude, I just want to point 8 out that these activities occurred at -- at all the 9 plants nationwide, not because of just one specific 10 reason or problem at San Onofre.

11 MR. JOHNSON: That's true. This was --

12 this -- Mr. Howell's comments are true. This was done 13 at every plant in the nation. This was not just San 14 Onofre. This was -- there were bulletins --

15 THE REPORTER: I can't pick him up over 16 here. I'm not able to pick him up unless he's on a 17 microphone.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. We'll take -- we'll 19 do that next time. Okay. Thank you.

20 All of the findings identified by the NRC 21 and licensee during the inspection cycle were of very 22 low safety significance. A number of -- a number of 23 these findings involved human performance issues --

24 errors. The licensee has identified the need to 25 improve in this area and has implemented programs to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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20 1 address this issue.

2 Overall, San Onofre Nuclear Generating 3 Station operated in a manner that preserved public 4 health and safety and fully met all cornerstone 5 objectives. Plant performance for the most recent 6 quarter, as well as for the first three quarters of 7 the assessment cycle, was within the Licensee Response 8 Column of the NRC's Action Matrix, based on all 9 inspection findings being classified as having very 10 low safety significance (Green) and all performance 11 indicators indicating performance at a level requiring 12 no additional NRC oversight.

13 However, a supplemental inspection will be 14 performed as a result of the Unit 2 reactor trip which 15 occurred in February of this year, and which caused 16 Unit 2 to exceed its performance indicator threshold 17 for the number of reactor trips per 7000 critical 18 hours2.083333e-4 days 0.005 hours 2.97619e-5 weeks 6.849e-6 months . And if need be, we'll go a little bit more in 19 detail later on in questions. But it was several 20 trips, and I'll just kind of briefly describe them.

21 Early in the year, June 30th, they had a 22 steam bypass control system, which was a reactor trip; 23 feed water reg. valve, which -- due to a steam --

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21 1 problems there.

2 I want to make it clear that, note, this 3 event -- the last reactor trip -- was -- this event 4 occurred outside of the 2002 assessment period and 5 will be evaluated as part of the 2003 assessment 6 period. The focus of this supplemental inspection 7 will be to review the root causes and the extent of 8 condition and the corrective action for this 9 performance indicator exceeding the Green to White 10 threshold.

11 This slide displays the performance 12 summary that is posted in the public web for the most 13 significant inspection findings. As you can see, all 14 the inspection findings are pretty much Green. You 15 see no White or Red issues there. And as you can see, 16 the licensee remained within the licensee response 17 band throughout the fourth quarter.

18 This slide, like the previous one, 19 displays the performance summary that is posted in the 20 public website for performance indicators. And, as 21 you can see, all the performance indicators are Green.

22 We reviewed the licensee's performance 23 indicator data. Performance indicators in the three 24 strategic areas -- reactor safety, radiation safety, 25 and plant security -- indicated that the licensee had NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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22 1 not exceeded any performance thresholds.

2 Our overall assessment conclusion is that 3 San Onofre -- Southern California Edison effectively 4 managed the facility in all three areas. The San 5 Onofre Nuclear Generating Station was operated in a 6 manner that protected the health and safety of the 7 public. Based on the 2002 results, the NRC does not 8 need to perform additional inspections beyond the 9 baseline inspection program. However, as I previously 10 stated, the NRC will conduct a supplemental inspection 11 because of Unit 2 crossing the Green to White 12 threshold for exceeding the number of reactor trips 13 per 7000 critical hours during the first quarter of 14 2003.

15 Now I would like to give Mr. Nunn, the 16 Vice President of Southern California Edison Company, 17 an opportunity to comment on the assessment. And 18 following Mr. Nunn's comments, I will address the 19 additional focus areas that I had mentioned earlier.

20 Mr. Nunn.

21 MR. NUNN: Thank you for that summary. I 22 hope that gives everyone a great deal of confidence in 23 the thoroughness and depth of the NRC's oversight of 24 San Onofre.

25 We pride ourself in safely operating the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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23 1 plant. Crossing the threshold due to the latest trip 2 on the Unit 2 causes us to reevaluate some of our 3 programs and reducing the errors in our -- human 4 errors in the operation of the plant.

5 They're at a relatively low level. All 6 the -- okay. I thought maybe we're not recording or 7 something.

8 I lost my train of thought. The -- all of 9 the -- the issues that have been raised as a result of 10 your oversight and our own oversight are being 11 addressed, and we welcome your assessing our 12 corrective action program in that regard.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Nunn. As I 15 had indicated earlier, at this time I would like to 16 take a few minutes to discuss some areas that required 17 additional NRC resources during this assessment cycle.

18 When conditions change or occur that have the 19 potential to impact public health and safety, the NRC 20 responds by providing additional oversight as needed.

21 Should the conditions warrant, we will even mandate 22 licensee actions to assure the public's safety and 23 implement our emergency plans.

24 During this assessment cycle, two areas 25 required ongoing attention. First was the degradation NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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24 1 of the Davis-Besse reactor vessel head. And the 2 second was -- the second concern was the security at 3 nuclear power plants following the tragic terrorist 4 attacks of 9/11.

5 And if you have any questions that you 6 would like to ask on the Davis-Besse event, Mr. Art 7 Howell was definitely involved in reviewing that 8 particular issue, so he's here today. If you really 9 want to know some answers and what they did, he can 10 definitely shed some light on that at the end of this 11 presentation.

12 During the performance of the refueling 13 activities at the Davis-Besse plant, located in Ohio, 14 significant reactor vessel head degradation was 15 identified. This degradation was caused by boric acid 16 corrosion, which occurred following the leak of a 17 control rod drive nozzle. The potential for this type 18 of problem was recognized in the early 1990s. This 19 event resulted in the NRC issuing a number of NRC 20 Bulletins describing the inspection activities 21 necessary to assure that other reactor vessel heads 22 were not degraded. The NRC learned more from further 23 evaluations and inspections based upon these 24 bulletins. This resulted in the issuance of an order 25 to mandate inspection requirements related to Reactor NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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25 1 Pressure Vessel Heads at Pressurized Water Reactors.

2 At the San Onofre Nuclear Generating 3 Station, that inspection was performed during the last 4 refueling outage for each unit. For Unit 2, that 5 inspection was performed June of 2002, and for Unit 3 6 that inspection was performed in January 2003. Both 7 inspections were monitored by the NRC specialists.

8 Overall, no significant reactor vessel 9 head degradation was identified at the San Onofre 10 Nuclear Generating Station.

11 Additional NRC and industry actions are 12 pending in response to the degradation of the Davis-13 Besse reactor vessel head.

14 Since September 11th, 2001, the NRC has 15 undertaken changes to enhance the already substantial 16 security at our nation's nuclear power plants. Some 17 of these changes have been made via orders to nuclear 18 facilities.

19 The NRC has expanded involvement and 20 enhanced liaisons with the FBI and other intelligence 21 and law enforcement agencies.

22 The NRC has established ongoing dialogue 23 through frequent communications with the Office of 24 Homeland Security, the Department of Defense, the 25 Federal Aviation Administration, the Federal Emergency NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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26 1 Management Agency, and others. For example, the NRC 2 has worked with FAA to prohibit planes from circling 3 or loitering above nuclear power plants.

4 The NRC has always worked in concert with 5 the licensee, state and local officials, and continues 6 to do so today. Through this cooperation, 7 enhancements of security at NRC-licensed facilities 8 are being continually implemented.

9 The NRC established the Office of Nuclear 10 Security and Incident Response in April 2002 to 11 consolidate incident response and security 12 responsibilities and resources. This improves 13 communication and coordination with both internal and 14 external organizations. The creation of NSIR 15 streamlines decision-making and improves the 16 timeliness and consistency of information. It also 17 provides a more visible point of contact and effective 18 counterpart of the Office of Homeland Security, as 19 well as other federal agencies.

20 The NRC has also developed a new Threat 21 Advisory and Protective Measures System to communicate 22 and respond to threats affecting NRC licensees and NRC 23 facilities. This is in response to the Homeland 24 Security Presidential Directive. The system 25 corresponds to the color-coded Homeland Security NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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27 1 Advisory System which provides a consistent national 2 framework for allowing Government officials to 3 communicate the nature and degree of terrorist 4 threats. The NRC system identifies specific actions 5 to be taken by NRC licensees for each threat level to 6 counter projected terrorist threats.

7 Currently, the NRC has underway a 8 comprehensive top-to-bottom review of agency's entire 9 safeguards and security programs, regulations, and 10 procedures. The review is ongoing and has resulted in 11 numerous security improvements.

12 The NRC has issued orders which mandate 13 Interim Compensation Measures to increase the level of 14 security at nuclear facilities. The specific actions 15 are sensitive but generally include requirements for 16 increased patrols, augmentation of the number and 17 capabilities of security guards, additional security 18 posts, installation of additional physical barriers, 19 vehicle checks at greater distances from the plant, 20 enhanced coordination with law enforcement and 21 military authorities, and more restrictive site access 22 controls for personnel.

23 In addition, the NRC has pending orders on 24 fatigue and guard training, and has initiated a pilot 25 of the force-on-force exercise.

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28 1 Resident inspectors and security 2 specialists have independently verified that the 3 appropriate measures were taken at each site to meet 4 the Interim Compensatory Measures.

5 Additionally, the industry has undertaken 6 a number of initiatives which have required licensing 7 reviews by the NRC's office of Nuclear Reactor 8 Regulation. For example, over the past few years, a 9 number of plants have taken advantage of advancements 10 in technology to request amendments to their operating 11 licenses to slightly increase the power output of the 12 plants. The NRC has approved more than 80 13 applications to increase reactor power thus far, and 14 approximately 51 applications are expected over the 15 next five years.

16 License renewal is a recent initiative, 17 with the first application submitted in 1998 and 18 approved in February 2000. Currently, 12 applications 19 are under review.

20 This pretty much concludes our 21 presentation.

22 We would like to adjourn for a short break 23 and we will begin the question-and-answer portion of 24 the presentation. I am going to leave the contact 25 numbers on the board, so any information that you want NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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29 1 to write down let us know and we will get that 2 information to you. If you would like to use our 3 question-and-answer form on the registration table to 4 formally capture your question, please feel free to do 5 so. Handouts, as I stated, are at the back of the 6 room. Also, as a reminder, we use the sign-up sheet 7 to call on these -- on different folks who wish to 8 make a statement. So just make sure you have your 9 microphone. We want to make sure that our court 10 reporter gathers any information. So if it's a 11 question that you ask that we can properly address it 12 and it's recorded, we'd appreciate that.

13 We'll -- let's take about a ten-minute 14 break and assemble back -- five-minute break and we'll 15 assemble back in here. Thank you. We have coffee 16 back in the back.

17 (Recess from 7:37 p.m., until 7:47 p.m.)

18 MR. JOHNSON: The list is fairly long.

19 I'd like to limit it to at least three minutes. And 20 Stefani has the list. She'll call you out in that 21 order as you sign the list.

22 MS. NEIDHOLDT: As I understand it, first 23 we have -- okay. He wants me to go to a mike. The 24 officials that Mr. Johnson pointed out to you earlier 25 wanted to take an opportunity to say hello. So Brian NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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30 1 Perry.

2 MR. PERRY: Good evening. My name is 3 Brian Perry. I'm the City of San Juan Capistrano 4 representative to SONGS -- the SONGS 5 Interjurisdictional Planning Committee. And I'm the 6 interim chair of the IPC.

7 My comments tonight, I wanted to make 8 principally for the general public, to make them aware 9 that there is a strong off-site organization 10 associated with SONGS known as the Interjurisdictional 11 Planning Committee which both support SONGS and is 12 supported by SONGS.

13 The Federal Emergency Management Agency 14 requires that exercises are carried out to demonstrate 15 the off-site preparedness to respond to an incident at 16 SONGS. These exercises have been carried out since 17 SONGS inception.

18 And the most recent evaluated exercise was 19 November the 6th, 2002. This exercise was completed 20 successfully and we're currently preparing for another 21 federal-evaluated exercise October the 22nd, 2003.

22 The IPC, for those who don't know, is a 23 collaboration of off-site jurisdictions and agencies, 24 and many of those representatives are here tonight.

25 The IPC meets monthly and the mission statement of the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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31 1 IPC, the goal of the IPC, is to promote nuclear power 2 preparedness through agency coordination and 3 integration of emergency plans.

4 There are eight primary members of the 5 IPC: The three cities of San Juan Capistrano, San 6 Clemente, and Dana Point, the two counties, San Diego 7 County and Orange County, California State Parks, the 8 United States Marine Corps, Camp Pendleton, and 9 Southern California Edison.

10 Those eight primary members don't work 11 alone. There are also six associate IPC members: The 12 American Red Cross, the California Highway Patrol, 13 Capistrano Unified School District, Mission Hospital, 14 Orange County Fire Authority, and the Oceanside Fire 15 Department.

16 I've been involved with the SONGS program 17 at the Emergency Center and the IPC for close to 20 18 years. It's been a positive experience for me, with 19 both the cooperation of SONGS and all the off-site 20 agencies' staff.

21 In addition to the main monthly IPC 22 meetings that we hold, there are a number of 23 subcommittees which meet to address and improve issues 24 such as communications, public information, off-site 25 dose assessment, emergency operations facility, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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32 1 Emergency Alert System, private schools, reception 2 centers, evacuation, interjurisdictional policies, 3 training, and exercise design.

4 I'm pleased to note for all the residents 5 within the PUC that the NRC has concluded that for the 6 reporting period, SONGS has operated in a manner that 7 preserved public health and safety and fully met all 8 cornerstone objectives.

9 The IPC exists to protect the health and 10 safety of the public.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Jim Russell. Jim Russell.

13 MR. RUSSELL: I haven't a lot to add to 14 what Brian covered. He covered about all of it. I 15 have been asked to stand in and represent the State 16 Office of Emergency Services, if any of you have 17 questions about KI and the distribution program that 18 we've got going on within the EPZ right now. So I'll 19 be around later. If you want to talk to me 20 individually, I'd be glad to do that.

21 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Len Hayes.

22 MR. HAYES: Well, really what is there 23 left to say after those two distinguished gentlemen?

24 I represent the County of Orange. I'm an employee of 25 the Orange County Sheriff's Department. The emergency NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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33 1 management function is embedded in the Sheriff's 2 Department in Orange County.

3 I've had the pleasure of working with 4 SONGS during my active duty career in the United 5 States Marine Corps, and I continue to enjoy a very 6 positive relationship with SONGS now as a member of 7 the Interjurisdictional Planning Commission. I could 8 perhaps answer any questions from the County of Orange 9 perspective.

10 But I want to assure you that we take 11 these SONGS exercises very, very seriously. We've 12 just been successful in our last one, as Brian 13 mentioned, and we're now pointing towards a success on 14 the next one. Thank you very much.

15 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Don Monahan.

16 MR. MONAHAN: Thank you very much. My 17 comments are primarily to the members of the NRC here.

18 To let you know the relationship that was formed 19 between employees of the California State Park System 20 and Southern California Edison, we have developed an 21 outstanding relationship with these folks over many 22 years. We've worked in concert on a variety of 23 issues, whether it's traffic management, park visitor 24 safety, employee safety at the plant, the 25 decommissioning that's going on currently, resource NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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34 1 management, things of that nature. We are in constant 2 communication with folks regarding security measures 3 as a result of 9/11. And we look forward to in the 4 future continuing to develop this relationship between 5 the California State Parks and the employees of 6 Edison.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Pete Lawrence.

9 MR. LAWRENCE: Good evening, members of 10 the Commission, Jurisdictional representatives, and 11 members of the public. My name is Peter Lawrence and 12 I'm representing the Oceanside Fire Department. While 13 the City of Oceanside is outside of the ten-mile 14 emergency planning zone, the City's been involved in 15 San Onofre-related response activities and planning 16 activities since the early 1980s. We are contracted 17 by the County of San Diego to provide the off-site 18 radiological monitoring teams. And I've been directly 19 involved with San Onofre planning since the mid-1980s, 20 including a couple-year stint as the Orange County 21 Chief Nuclear Planner.

22 The City takes the process of San Onofre 23 response and planning very seriously. We provide off-24 site radiological monitoring teams. We provide 25 assistance in the off-site dose assessment center.

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35 1 The City is very appreciative of the work that is done 2 by Southern California Edison and the employees at San 3 Onofre and the cooperation and coordination that 4 occurs in the emergency planning field. Having been 5 involved in emergency management and the management of 6 large-scale fires throughout the United States for 7 many years, it is second to none in terms of the 8 ability to coordinate and communicate.

9 On the issue of communications, there has 10 been significant concern lately -- and the new 11 buzzword in emergency planning seems to be 12 "interoperability" or "communications 13 interoperability." And I -- one of my roles within 14 the City is that I'm the City's communications 15 officer. I manage training, safety, communications, 16 and the nuclear power coordination.

17 As such, as the communications officer, 18 I'm responsible for ensuring that our entity is able 19 to communicate with all of the personnel, all of the 20 agencies, all of the organizations that would be 21 involved in any emergency that might affect the 22 citizens of the City of Oceanside or our 23 responsibilities, of which San Onofre, because of 24 contract requirements, becomes one of our 25 responsibilities.

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36 1 As such, I've spent a tremendous amount of 2 time studying the communications issue, and I can 3 safely say that the ability of the off-site response 4 agencies to communicate is very robust, it is probably 5 the most interoperable system that we operate under in 6 -- in the fire service. We have multiple frequency 7 bands. We have multiple repeater sites. And we have 8 multiple mechanisms of getting information in and 9 among the -- the entities, both to the radiological 10 monitoring teams as well as the -- the off-site 11 responders, from law enforcement to public works, to 12 bus drivers, and on down the line.

13 So the -- the summary, I guess you could 14 say, is that the City has been very supportive of the 15 role that we've provided to San Onofre. We've been 16 very appreciative of the support that has been 17 received in turn from San Onofre. That must be 18 somebody moving their car. Actually, the chef is 19 moving everyone's car. And that the -- the level of 20 planning and the level of coordination is very 21 extensive, probably the best of any of the entities 22 that we deal with, both from a fire emergency 23 management standpoint and it is no -- by no means --

24 we would not expect anything other than the results 25 that the NRC came up with, that there is a full NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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37 1 support of protection of the public based on the 2 emergency response activities.

3 So thank you very much.

4 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Did Mr. Cramer from 5 Pendleton come? There he is.

6 MR. CRAMER: Hi. Good evening, everyone.

7 My name is Joe Cramer. I am the Disaster Preparedness 8 Coordinator for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton.

9 And of course we have a very close relationship with 10 the planning with SONGS since we are literally -- they 11 sit right on our property. We also share a very 12 unique security concern and we tie in very well with 13 the relationship, sharing information, and making sure 14 that, from a security perspective, we do everything we 15 can to -- to support the effort there at SONGS.

16 In fact, I was late tonight because I was 17 actually at a town hall meeting on Camp Pendleton 18 where we were actually distributing KI to our 19 residents there at Camp Pendleton and answering their 20 questions, and that's why I was running a little late 21 tonight.

22 And with that, I thank you very much.

23 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Jan Sener.

24 MS. SENER: Thank you. I've had a unique 25 experience with SONGS because, actually, I started my NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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38 1 career with San Clemente Police Department. And at 2 that time, we were the responding agency for San 3 Onofre. And so I've had the pleasure and the 4 privilege of really working with SONGS for probably 5 about -- oh, years.

6 And I think the previous speakers have 7 really illustrated the professionalism that is a part 8 of this Interjurisdictional group. My role, as the PI 9 Chairperson -- actually, I'm with Orange County 10 Sheriff's Department. I'm the Director of Crime 11 Prevention -- but in this capacity, I am the PIO 12 Chairperson. And I'm kind of the mother hen because 13 I facilitate what happens at our media center, I help 14 all of our professionals to know that it's going to be 15 okay.

16 One of the other tributes that I can 17 really give to SONGS is the fact that we, the 18 information officers that are all at the media center, 19 will many times have suggestions on how things could 20 maybe be run a little better, a little more 21 efficiently as we're dealing with the mock media. And 22 they listen to us. They have taken our suggestions 23 and they've helped this to be an even greater 24 professional experience and helped us all to do a 25 better job. It's been very much of a pleasure to work NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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39 1 with these people, as you have heard the many 2 disciplines that are represented throughout this group 3 of professionals, and it's a pleasure and I know we'll 4 continue to do great things for them and they provide 5 us the training and the skills to make good things 6 happen.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. One last 9 chance to move your cars. Okay. I have a list of 10 people who wanted to either speak or had a question.

11 Do I have everybody's name that wants to speak or ask 12 a question? Okay.

13 Three minutes and I'll let you know when 14 that's up. Russell Hoffman is our first speaker.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much. I have 16 a list of 25 simple ways a small band of terrorists 17 could destroy a nuclear power plant. I don't think in 18 three minutes I can go over all 25. So you'll have to 19 guess what the missing ones are going to be.

20 The number one way is, of course, hijack 21 a commercial airliner and, if one isn't enough, hijack 22 two, and if two aren't enough, hijack four.

23 Another way, you can just rent a corporate 24 jet so there's no pesky passengers to get in your way.

25 And you can also bring a boat to bomb or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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40 1 a depth-carrying boat could go up to the outlet tubes.

2 You can steal a tank. Many of you are 3 probably long-time residents here and know that about 4 six or eight years ago, somebody did that. And if it 5 had decided to come up the coast, they don't know how 6 they would have stopped it. There's some people here 7 who might be able to stop it now if they are paying 8 attention.

9 .50-caliber machine gun bullets can go 10 right through the control room. They can go right 11 through most of the pipes that are coming out of the 12 containment room.

13 Until recently, the NRC posted the GPS 14 locations of the site to six decimal places, which is 15 maybe two feet across or something. So all you need 16 to do is find that document.

17 You can throw a short-circuiting bomb or 18 a grenade in the switch yard. That's something with 19 a lot of wires. And they -- instead of exploding, it 20 just spreads the wires out. Could easily cut off the 21 power.

22 Somebody told me, one of your employees, 23 that the -- two of the generators are located right 24 next to each other with just a cement -- a cinder 25 block wall between them. So one Cessna 172 could take NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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41 1 out both of those generators, and another one could 2 take out the other set; you've got all four gone, and 3 you need those generators.

4 Somebody working inside the plant, not a 5 friend of mine, but somebody else, might switch pages 6 in the control room operating manuals. Are you sure 7 those are all in proper order and all of the 8 information in them is right?

9 Obviously, you can get insiders to do 10 things.

11 Derail trains off the tracks. Now, I did 12 get a letter from the NRC saying that the plant is far 13 enough from the tracks that there is no way that two 14 trains going towards each other with the engines in 15 the rear and the cars buckling up, there's no way they 16 could fall over on the track and there's nothing --

17 there's no loads, I guess, that could be carried that 18 might explode something that would go onto the control 19 room or anything like that. But I don't believe it.

20 So, anyway, that's number ten.

21 Number 11, derail a chemical train nearby 22 or a truck on the highway. They bring cyanide down to 23 the power -- the recycling -- the water recycling 24 plants use cyanide or arsenic, I guess it is, to 25 reduce the smell. That could cause a problem.

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42 1 You could lob mortars at the plant from 2 San Onofre State Beach.

3 Crop duster airplanes filled with gasoline 4 or something else to create sort of a napalm-type 5 explosion, take out the whole place.

6 You could rent a piece of construction 7 equipment, like a Caterpillar.

8 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: That's three minutes. We 10 got to number 14. You'll just have to guess what the 11 others are.

12 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. Sharon 13 Hoffman.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: My name is Sharon Hoffman.

15 And I'm a resident of Carlsbad. And if Oceanside is 16 outside of the evacuation area, Carlsbad is certainly 17 outside of the evacuation area. I am here to tell you 18 that the residents of Carlsbad are not going to think 19 of staying home if there is an accident at San Onofre, 20 nor are the residents of San Diego, Los Angeles, the 21 rest of Orange County. And anybody who has driven 22 these roads on a normal weekday morning knows that the 23 idea that we could evacuate this area is ridiculous.

24 So what I would like to know is what is the evacuation 25 plan that deals with the realities of the number of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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43 1 people that live in the vicinity of this plant that 2 would try to leave and with the road and traffic 3 conditions that we have here?

4 That's the first thing I'd like to know.

5 The second thing I'd like to know is if 6 the primary purpose of the NRC is to maintain public 7 safety and to protect the environment, who is in 8 charge of looking at the regulations that the NRC has 9 and saying that they do those things? Because a lot 10 of people a lot more knowledgeable about the subject 11 than I do not believe that they do those things, and 12 nor do I.

13 So I would like to know who is in charge 14 of that. Who oversees the overseers?

15 The next question I have is findings and 16 assessments were presented this evening. A rather big 17 deal was made about the fact that this is a public 18 forum, that these are being presented in public, and 19 I would like to know to what extent Southern 20 California Edison sees that information prior to this 21 public meeting. If there was something to say that 22 wasn't Green, would that have been discussed prior to 23 this meeting? And what are the criteria of what the 24 different levels are?

25 I've been to several of these meetings.

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44 1 I've never seen a finding that wasn't Green. Again, 2 I question whether those regulations are regulating 3 anything.

4 And, finally, when we talk about the 5 protection and the security of the plant, there is a 6 very great tendency to talk about the reactors 7 themselves. And there are lots of other parts of the 8 plant that are vulnerable -- the spent fuel pools, the 9 generators, the control room. To what extent are 10 those protected, and to what extent can the plant 11 continue to function, say if it has no outside 12 electricity? And the answer is it cannot.

13 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Do we want to address --

15 yes. We'd like to address those now.

16 MR. HOWELL: Yes. Good evening. My name 17 is Art Howell. I think I got all the questions. I 18 might need a little help with all the questions. I 19 tried to write those down.

20 To answer I believe your second-to-the-21 last question, to what extent are there criteria for 22 the various findings, we tried to cover those briefly.

23 We'd be more than happy to discuss those further 24 following this meeting. But just to give you some 25 insight into that, they are defined and there's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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45 1 various processes. They're all publicly available.

2 And we can help you -- show you where those are so 3 that -- so you can see those for yourself.

4 Also, we didn't show it, but we have a 5 summary that provides a summary of the various 6 findings for all the Region IV plants. And to give 7 you some idea, we have 21 reactor units in our region.

8 Thirteen plants are in the Green band and we have five 9 in the -- which is the licensee control band. That 10 means all their findings and performance indicators 11 were Green. We have five plants that are in the 12 regulatory response column, which means they have at 13 least one White finding. And we have two plants, I 14 believe, that have -- have either multiple White 15 findings or at least one Yellow finding. And, 16 finally, we have one plant that has had multiple 17 repetitive White findings that puts them in column 18 four of the action matrix.

19 So that's a summary of the results for 20 2002 for all the plants in Region IV. As Mr. Johnson 21 indicated, they are available on the public website.

22 In conjunction with your question, I 23 believe you asked whether or not this information was 24 discussed with the licensee. In the sense that all 25 our findings are publicly available and documented in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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46 1 inspectional reports, that information is provided to 2 all, including the licensee. If there were a 3 significant finding -- for example, let's say there 4 was an event and we sent out one of these teams that 5 we referred to during the discussion and we did 6 follow-up on that event and characterized that finding 7 as something greater than Green, in all likelihood, by 8 our process, we would conduct a meeting such as this 9 to discuss the results of that inspection at the time 10 that the inspection was conducted.

11 Also, once the finding was characterized, 12 its significance was characterized, we would also hold 13 another public meeting to discuss the -- the NRC's 14 view on the significance of that finding. And then, 15 again, the documentation associated with the finding 16 would be made publicly available.

17 In terms of who reviews NRC regulations, 18 we have representatives here from the Office of 19 Nuclear Reactor Regulation. They are what we refer to 20 as our program office. They are in charge of 21 developing the programs, also which includes, in many 22 instances, development of revisions or new regulations 23 to address generic problems that may -- may face the 24 industry that are identified either through problems 25 that -- that crop up from time to time or as a result NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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47 1 of generic safety issues that are identified by 2 various means, including research, both domestically 3 and internationally.

4 So they review the regulations basically 5 on a continual basis and do make revisions from time 6 to time. They also review implementing procedures and 7 regulatory programs that we use to provide oversight 8 for the implementation of those regulations by our 9 licensees. And then, finally, we do have an 10 independent Inspector General who conducts audits of 11 their choosing and who reports to our Chairman 12 separately from the NRC staff and also reports 13 directly to Congress.

14 For example, the Office of Inspector 15 General conducted a number of investigations 16 associated with the reactor vessel head degradation of 17 the Ohio plant, Davis-Besse, that we referred to, just 18 to give you some idea of some of the reviews that they 19 conduct.

20 So hopefully that addresses that question.

21 MR. BERKOW: Art, Congressional oversight 22 committees.

23 MR. HOWELL: Yes. Recently -- Mr. Berkow 24 has just pointed out that we also report to Congress 25 various Congressional oversight committees at their NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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48 1 request to come and talk about issues that they wish 2 to be briefed on. For example, we've had a number of 3 recent Congressional oversight committee --

4 subcommittee hearings on various matters facing the 5 agency, including the reactor vessel head degradation 6 issues at Davis-Besse and also some emergency 7 preparedness issues at a plant in New York.

8 In terms of emergency response, in terms 9 of evaluating the number of folks in the planning 10 areas that would have to -- who live in the planning 11 areas and would have to be evacuated, that is assessed 12 periodically by the licensee. I believe in the 13 planning area, there's somewhere in the order of what?

14 -- 175,000, 200,000 folks; is that --

15 MR. NUNN: One seventy-five-.

16 MR. HOWELL: One seventy-five-. And 17 studies are done on the evacuation times and they are 18 reviewed periodically.

19 In terms of folks who live outside the 20 EPZ, emergency planning zone, if there were to be a 21 serious accident or a condition in which the emergency 22 response portions were mobilized, depending on the 23 nature of the event, recommendations would be made --

24 considered and made for folks who live outside the 25 ten-mile EPZ, as necessary, so I just wanted to point NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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49 1 that out.

2 Mr. Nunn, did you want to add anything?

3 Did I capture --

4 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. There was one 5 question, Ms. Hoffman, that you asked -- I may not 6 have it characterized, but it says if something -- if 7 something was not Green, would it be brought to the 8 attention I guess of the public? And I gave a good 9 example of a -- of an issue where it exceeded its 10 threshold from Green to White, and it didn't even 11 happen in this particular assessment period, but we 12 thought we'd bring it up front. It happened in this 13 particular 2003 inspection cycle. So we do bring that 14 -- we -- anything greater than Green, it is definitely 15 brought to the attention of the public.

16 MR. HOWELL: That's an excellent point.

17 I mean, what Mr. Johnson was referring to is that the 18 -- the fourth reactor trip scram, automatic shutdown 19 of the plant, occurred in the first calendar quarter 20 of 2003. We issue our reports on a quarterly basis.

21 That report has not even been issued yet, and yet 22 we're here tonight to share with you the fact that 23 that occurred and that we would need to do a 24 supplemental inspection as a result of crossing that 25 threshold.

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50 1 MR. JOHNSON: Art, there was one other 2 question, I think. It was if you lost off-site power, 3 what would run the plant? And you can mention the 4 diesel generators. I think, Ms. Hoffman, if you 5 characterize --

6 MR. HOWELL: Yes. The plant is designed 7 to cope with a loss of all off-site power for a number 8 of hours, and there are emergency procedures and plans 9 to restore power from -- from various multiple sources 10 in the event that that occurs. And that -- that has 11 been reviewed by the NRC as part of a regulation that 12 governs being able to cope with a loss of all off-site 13 power.

14 MS. PATTERSON: You know, I just -- maybe 15 I misunderstood. But I thought that one of her 16 questions was that if in fact Southern California 17 Edison is privy to some of the information, when do 18 they get it? Do they get that information the same 19 time as the public does or do they get it before we 20 know about it?

21 MR. HOWELL: They get the preliminary 22 results of all of our inspections at the completion of 23 the inspection. They get the official results at the 24 same time the public does, when the inspection report 25 is issued.

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51 1 MS. PATTERSON: But they do get 2 information before the public does; is that what you 3 said?

4 MR. HOWELL: In that they become aware of 5 the inspection because we're at their facility 6 inspecting them, and so they get -- they obviously 7 know what questions we're asking them. In some cases 8 -- in many cases, almost in every case in fact, 9 there's -- there has to be two-way communication to 10 understand what information is provided, what it 11 means, and so in that sense they know what issues 12 we're looking at and what we're pursuing. They don't 13 know what the regulatory characterization of those 14 issues are until an exit meeting is conducted and a 15 report is issued.

16 MS. PATTERSON: So they don't get any 17 preliminary results before the public?

18 MR. HOWELL: No. I want to be clear.

19 They do get an exit meeting. Not all the exit 20 meetings are open to the public. We have guidance 21 that provides for different thresholds on which we do 22 conduct meetings for -- that are open to the public 23 that discuss inspection results. They're typically 24 associated with significant inspection findings, as 25 opposed to the more routine, very low safety NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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52 1 significant inspection findings.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: And I would just like to say 5 that you spoke for considerably more than three 6 minutes.

7 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I'm sorry. The court 8 reporter can't pick you up there. If you would like 9 to have someone cede your minutes, that would be --

10 cede their minutes to you, that would be great. I 11 have Dan Farrell.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Can I just -- I forgot one 13 point.

14 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Dan Farrell, please.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Three seconds.

16 MR. FARRELL: No. It's okay.

17 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Is it okay?

18 MR. FARRELL: Sure.

19 MS. NEIDHOLDT: All right.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Please. Thank you.

21 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Go right ahead.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: I would just like to say 23 that you spoke for considerably more than three 24 minutes, and you did not give a substantive answer to 25 anything that I asked. And let me tell you I have a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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53 1 lot more than three minutes' worth of questions.

2 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.

3 MR. HOWELL: Yes. I understand that 4 perhaps just up here I didn't address fully everything 5 that you inquired about, and that's one of the reasons 6 why we have a court reporter, to capture all of those 7 issues, and --

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What about my 9 questions? Am I chopped liver?

10 MR. HOWELL: Not at all, sir. At any time 11 -- as we indicated up here, we have contact 12 information. What -- the reason why we're trying to 13 limit it to three minutes is a lot of folks want to 14 communicate tonight, and we want to hold it and give 15 everybody here a chance to communicate. If you do 16 have additional issues or we weren't responsive, we 17 can deal with you after the meeting. We can certainly 18 have our contact information provided. And we can 19 work with you after the meeting in person, work with 20 you over the phone. If you wish to provide us with 21 additional issues or concerns, we would welcome that 22 and -- but, beyond that, we really do need to observe 23 some meeting rules so that everybody here has an 24 opportunity to participate in the meeting.

25 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. All right.

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54 1 Dan Farrell.

2 MR. FARRELL: Thank you. I'll be brief.

3 I'm going to ask for a little audience participation.

4 I'm going to ask the people in the audience if they 5 would raise their hand if they've been involved in an 6 evacuation. Anybody evacuated from Saigon? Anybody 7 evacuated from Chernobyl?

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Not Chernobyl.

9 Evacuated during hurricanes and it's been very well-10 organized and very well-planned.

11 MR. FARRELL: Anybody evacuated from 12 Boston with the British? Anybody evacuated from Three 13 Mile Island? Jay, raise your hand. There we go. So 14 two people in the room have been involved in a nuclear 15 evacuation.

16 Twenty-four years ago last week was the 17 anniversary. I'm not here to hash over old things.

18 My name is Dan Farrell. I live in San Juan. I'm a 19 concerned citizen. I'm also a member of the 20 Physicians for Social Responsibility. I got my 21 potassium iodine tablets -- thank you very much. I 22 didn't throw it out. And I've got more than a two-day 23 supply. I know you need more because, as a member of 24 the Physicians for Social Responsibility, I went to a 25 symposium at UCLA and heard what would happen up there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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55 1 if there was a catastrophe of the magnitude of Three 2 Mile Island or San Onofre that caused the people in 3 Koreatown, for instance, to evacuate the area and head 4 south. If that dry drunk fruitcake, that prince, 5 decided to throw a nuclear stink bomb into Koreatown, 6 the people that walk to Los Angeles over the last 60 7 years might easily walk back the same way they came.

8 And I'd like to know if the Sheriff, if the Marines, 9 if anybody here has made any thoughts as to what would 10 happen if it was the reverse.

11 It took me three days to get to my mother 12 at Three Mile Island. She lives a mile and a half 13 away. I came to California from Middletown in 1963.

14 But I was obsessed with -- and that's the word my wife 15 likes to use -- with what was happening back at Three 16 Mile Island two decades ago, 24 years ago, just like 17 the people that can't get enough television, that 18 can't get enough newspaper, that can't get enough --

19 so I came here tonight to find out, one, what the hell 20 is this strange occurrence that tripped us over the 21 threshold for Unit 4? I'm very aware of all the off-22 site things that terrorize me, and I don't want to 23 touch those. But I do like to think that if a hundred 24 thousand people decided to walk through San Onofre, 25 that the Sheriff's Department or the Marines or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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56 1 somebody would be able to address that kind of reverse 2 traffic flow, which concerns me as somebody that went 3 through it.

4 That's all, folks. Thanks.

5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. R.K. Dickie.

6 MR. DICKIE: Thank you.

7 MS. NEIDHOLDT: We're trading mikes.

8 Okay.

9 MR. DICKIE: We're going to trade mikes?

10 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Yeah.

11 MR. DICKIE: I really had very little to 12 discuss concerning the specifics. I was concerned 13 more about I think another evacuation problem that we 14 have concerning this area that has very little to do 15 with San Onofre, having considerable experience with 16 the overall safety factors that are associated with 17 that particular facility. My concern has been 18 strictly -- and I put on my sheet there that we've 19 been talking about a -- this 241 toll road and other 20 access things coming from North County, which would 21 impact the I-5 problem which we all have. And I have 22 been pushing for many years and would hope that we 23 would get the concerns of county, state, and federal 24 people involved in getting something as -- like 241 to 25 go in the direction of I- -- over to I-15 and forget NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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57 1 about any further I-5 access. I think we're over-2 impacted on I-5 at the moment. Has nothing to do with 3 nuclear security whatsoever. I don't think that's a 4 problem we should even be discussing.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Stefani, wait just one 7 second. Excuse me, sir. Did you ask a question a 8 while ago that -- that you wanted addressed? You kind 9 of --

10 MR. FARRELL: I would like somebody to 11 tell me that is there a reverse -- if we had a fuel 12 reversal that tripped the reactors and we weren't 13 gonna hear about it till next year, is there a plan in 14 effect to have a reverse migration if everybody starts 15 coming at us instead of leaving the area and coming 16 into the area? Are we thinking outside the box for a 17 contingency that --

18 MR. JOHNSON: Are you talking about egress 19 from the plant if an accident occurred? Maybe I'm not 20 following you.

21 MR. FARRELL: I'm saying somebody throws 22 a nuclear missile into Koreatown and everybody that 23 lives around Koreatown decides to come and go stay 24 with their aunt in Mexico, then the freeways are so 25 crowded because the cars are clogged and everybody's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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58 1 motor home that hasn't been off the block in five 2 years is suddenly jammed with all the family valuables 3 and breaks down every hill, the people that are 4 causing accidents kind of get out of the way and 5 nobody's going to be moving except the people that 6 walk. So the people that walk are gonna be walking 7 towards --

8 MR. JOHNSON: So -- excuse me, sir. So 9 are you asking is there an emergency plan or something 10 set up for that?

11 MR. FARRELL: Is there an emergency plan 12 set up to deal with the reverse migration?

13 MR. HOWELL: People walking on foot as 14 opposed to vehicles.

15 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

16 MR. FARRELL: And walking south instead of 17 north.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Nunn, do you have 19 anybody that -- we want to refer this to the licensee 20 -- as far as your emergency plan.

21 MR. NUNN: Well, I'm not sure I understand 22 the question. If I understand the question, if 23 someone set off a nuclear weapon in Koreatown and 24 everyone in Los Angeles started going south, is there 25 an emergency plan for that? Not to my knowledge.

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59 1 MR. JOHNSON: Sir, did you -- did you 2 leave a question? We don't want to miss any questions 3 that you may have asked. I'm not sure if you asked a 4 question or not.

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm on the list 6 later.

7 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. I'm talking about the 8 gentleman sitting next to you.

9 MR. DICKIE: I'm sorry?

10 MR. JOHNSON: Did you ask a question?

11 MR. DICKIE: My concern was just has there 12 been any consideration, that you're aware of, in terms 13 of federal or county activity or state that would 14 direct -- have other access routes for north and 15 south, regardless of whether it's just involving San 16 Onofre, which is probably not consequentially in this 17 discussion, but we have no other north-south route.

18 That's a major problem with activity -- people either 19 having to go north or south. At the moment, we keep 20 dumping people onto the I-5 and I think it just 21 further impacts both Camp Pendleton and San Onofre 22 unnecessarily. I don't think it's anything that's 23 within your purview.

24 MR. JOHNSON: So is it -- I guess the 25 question is --

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60 1 MS. NEIDHOLDT: No. It's not a question.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

3 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Go ahead.

4 MR. NUNN: We're not aware of any -- any 5 initiative taken by any agency or certainly our 6 company that thought about or addressed the issue of 7 the new freeway proposal for 14 or whatever the number 8 is.

9 MS. NEIDHOLDT: All right. Lyn Harris 10 Hicks.

11 MS. HARRIS HICKS: Firstly, I'd like to 12 thank our moderator for being generous about offering 13 the chance for people to yield their time, because 14 it's very distressing when citizens come to a meeting 15 like this and then they listen for a long time to the 16 people talking about it and then ask their questions 17 and the answers take three times as long as the -- as 18 the question and the comment, and then maybe they're 19 shut off just before they reach the most important 20 part of what they want to say.

21 It's really distressing and so I think 22 that that's nice that she has allowed us to have some 23 yield their time so that we don't have that problem.

24 I'm Lyn Harris Hicks and I did not get my 25 comments approved before I came from my Creed Steering NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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61 1 (ph) group. But I think that I can say fairly that 2 the ones in the Creed Steering group that I work with 3 have been very appreciative of the fact that you who 4 most of the room -- in the room here are -- Edison and 5 Nuclear Regulatory Commission and so forth -- that you 6 are on the same target that we are here and that you 7 are doing everything you can to make things safe for 8 us and yourselves, and we know that. And when we come 9 and ask questions and bring up issues that we think 10 should be considered, we're trying to help. And if --

11 if there were some way that we could have our 12 participation received in the spirit in which it's 13 offered, we would appreciate that very much, too, 14 because we now have a directive from a subcommittee of 15 the Congress on -- they were -- they are taking up the 16 matters of emerging terrorist threat at nuclear power 17 plants. And it's not just threats that already exist, 18 but they are thinking in terms of emerging terrorist 19 threats, what might we expect now that we are in a 20 war, in a sense.

21 So the directive is that FEMA conduct a 22 reassessment of the evacuation planning and they chose 23 four areas -- pardon me -- four plants. They were 24 focusing at the time of this meeting on the Indian 25 Point, which of course is very important to New York NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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62 1 and Connecticut. But they wanted to be national since 2 they are Congressional subcommittees. So they picked 3 four. I thought it was three, but I found out today 4 it was four -- four plants geographically spaced.

5 And one of them was San Onofre.

6 MS. NEIDHOLDT: You're done with your 7 three minutes.

8 MS. HARRIS HICKS: Okay. I think there's 9 somebody there who said I could have her time. Carol, 10 yes.

11 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. Go ahead.

12 MS. HARRIS HICKS: Okay. Thank you very 13 much. The -- the purpose of the hearing was to delve 14 into problems of evacuation. And there were some very 15 -- very angry persons on that panel because they were 16 asking questions from someone from the Nuclear 17 Regulatory Commission, someone from FEMA, and many 18 others, and they weren't getting the answers. And so 19 they did this. They said, Go back and study it and 20 make the -- make the changes that are needed.

21 One point which I think is very important 22 is that they were not considering the types of drills 23 that we've been doing as adequate, where everybody 24 knew it was going to happen and then they were -- they 25 went through the process of the communications NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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63 1 exercise. They want to have an exercise where the 2 people involved don't have the bus drivers on the bus 3 ready to come get the children and all that sort of 4 thing.

5 So that's one that is very important. And 6 we would like to help. We as citizens here would like 7 to have a part in the talking about, the suggestions 8 for, the planning for, that has been going on all 9 along and that we feel that we're shut out. So if you 10 can figure out a way that we can -- can have some 11 participation, we would very much like that.

12 Secondly, we have become aware as we're 13 studying this over the years of areas where we get 14 information that we feel that the public should have 15 and it's -- it's covered up. And I know that it 16 happens probably gradually where people don't want to 17 have -- to distress the citizens too much. But I --

18 I wanted to tell you that several of us who have heard 19 recent presentations on emergency planning from 20 emergency planners, they are saying that many of that 21 is going away, that the presentation is much more 22 forthright, and it isn't in a situation where every 23 three sentences we wish we could get up and say, 24 That's deceptive, or whatever. It's becoming much 25 better.

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64 1 And so, in a sense, I am saying to the 2 Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the Edison people, and 3 the people who are doing the emergency planning and so 4 forth, are really giving us a much better 5 presentation, from our standpoint.

6 And -- and we'd like to have the 7 opportunity to sit down with one or another of you 8 when you do something like that, when you're through 9 with it, and say, Well, what about this? Couldn't you 10 say this a little differently so people really know 11 what's happening? So that's mine for the night. And 12 thank you.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.

14 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. And you're 15 right. Someone did cede their minutes. When I grow 16 up, maybe I'll learn how to read. Okay. Marion Beane 17 had a question. Is it -- you're not Marion. Okay.

18 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

19 Okay. I'll leave her and go on to Steve 20 Netherby.

21 MS. BROWN: Yeah. Excuse me. Could that 22 be Marianne Brown?

23 MS. NEIDHOLDT: It could.

24 MS. BROWN: If so, I'll give my time to 25 Steve.

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65 1 MS. NEIDHOLDT: It could. Okay.

2 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

3 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I think maybe it is.

4 MS. BROWN: Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't 5 walk up. Perhaps you can hear me.

6 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Do you want -- I'll bring 7 -- I will bring you the mike.

8 MS. BROWN: Yeah. I just had hip surgery.

9 They put a hip in me from a very credible firm in 10 Switzerland. They forgot to check it, though, and it 11 was defective. Like you buy batteries and tires, so 12 slips do happen.

13 I'm fairly new to the area -- okay. I'm 14 fairly new to the area and curious and impressed with 15 certain things. I'd like some answers. You've talked 16 first about security. I'd like to know a lot more 17 specifics. What local groups are you working with, 18 and specifically what are you really doing? Because 19 I've encountered, just because of my nature to do 20 research projects, some pictures on the Internet at 21 various places where it doesn't look to me like things 22 are really safe here. So could that be -- could you 23 enhance and enlarge your discussion of that? What 24 groups are you working with within this area, question 25 one? And specifically, what are you really doing?

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66 1 Because I don't see that much change from what I've 2 observed.

3 MR. JOHNSON: Well, as far as security --

4 what's your name?

5 MS. BROWN: Marianne.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Marianne, we don't --

7 there's certain things that we can't really discuss 8 security-wise, but I can tell you with all of -- the 9 NRC's put out about 50 advisories and orders to help 10 enhance our security organization, at least the 11 licensee's security organization. And a lot of that 12 information is not privy to the public. There's some 13 sensitive information and we really don't like to get 14 into the safeguards information publicly like that.

15 But I assure you these orders have enhanced the 16 security at all of our nuclear power plants.

17 MR. HOWELL: But, in general, I think as 18 we alluded to during the presentation, these 19 enhancements include such things as enhancing or 20 increasing the guard force at these plants, which you 21 wouldn't see from the street, increasing the number of 22 guard posts, increasing the standoff distances for 23 vehicles that could have access to the plant, 24 increased security checks, increased or more stringent 25 requirements for access to the plant in terms of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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67 1 background investigations of individuals. The 2 Commission is also working with industry to provide 3 new requirements that would require more training for 4 security guards, limit their hours of work. These are 5 some of the issues that were raised at the Indian 6 Point plant. Some folks in the audience may be aware 7 of that. And so these are in response to some of 8 these generic issues that a number of plants, not 9 necessarily here at San Onofre, but across the board 10 that are being undertaken as part of this top-to-11 bottom review that Mr. Johnson referred to that's 12 ongoing by the agency.

13 And so we can talk in general terms but, 14 because of the sensitive nature of the information, 15 this information is protected, for obvious reasons --

16 because we don't want folks who can exploit the 17 details of this information to have access to it, and 18 that's one of the reasons why we can't talk in great 19 detail about it.

20 But we can work with you if you have an 21 interest in other information about what enhancements 22 are being made to security. We can give you -- we can 23 get your contact information and we can provide that.

24 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Second thing: Can 25 you clarify more about the hazardous events? What NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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68 1 actually was the potentia -- you spoke before, I 2 believe, hazardous events that have occurred within 3 the last year or so here; right? What -- frankly, I 4 think you slid through those. I wasn't clear as to 5 what the potential problems were with it.

6 MR. HOWELL: We were trying to share with 7 you -- the question was what hazardous events were 8 there. What we were trying to do was share with you 9 some of the issues that have taken up a lot of time in 10 the industry, in the NRC nationwide, and one of those 11 issues was this -- there's a problem at a plant in 12 Ohio in which there was significant degradation to the 13 reactor pressure vessel; in other words, there's a 14 steel shell on top to the reactor. It's about six 15 inches thick. And this thing corroded to the point 16 where there's only about three eighths of an inch 17 left. And so, as a result of that problem, the agency 18 has taken a number of actions nationwide to make sure 19 that that doesn't happen at another nuclear power 20 plant in the country.

21 And so Mr. Johnson was referring to some 22 of the inspections that are being done to check -- to 23 ensure that that level of degradation has not 24 occurred. So that's one of them.

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69 1 -- there's been no particular events at this plant 2 that rise above the level of very low safety 3 significance that we referred to. There was some 4 automatic shutdowns and we have some other inspector 5 findings, but they were all very low safety 6 significance and not -- not particularly significant.

7 MS. BROWN: Okay. Thank you very much.

8 MR. HOWELL: Oh, I think you did have one 9 other question, and that was local law enforcement, 10 who the plant coordinates with. I don't want to 11 speak --

12 MR. NUNN: Yeah. Let me briefly talk 13 about security. For the 99 percent of what goes on in 14 security, you can't see from driving by the plant.

15 All you can see is our armed security officers 16 checking IDs on plants, going -- on personnel going 17 into the plant.

18 As the NRC has indicated, access to even 19 the owner-controlled area, which is not the plant 20 itself but office buildings and the like, has been 21 limited to employees and business persons and positive 22 identification has to be made to enter that area.

23 We have a highly trained professional 24 security force. Eighty-five percent of those either 25 have military experience or prior police experience.

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70 1 Do you want me to wait till you finish to continue 2 talking? Are you interested in this?

3 MS. BROWN: Yes. Then there's one further 4 question that's rather pressing, and --

5 MR. NUNN: I haven't finished my answer 6 yet.

7 MS. BROWN: Oh, I'm sorry.

8 MR. NUNN: You asked who our local law 9 enforcement contacts are. Our local law enforcement 10 authority for San Onofre is the FBI. They're our 11 primary contact for any crimes or threats. We also 12 have the Orange County Sheriff, the San Diego County 13 Sheriff, the Highway Patrol. Perhaps if you've driven 14 by the plant, you've noticed that typically in the 15 condition Orange, there is a Highway Patrol officer 16 stationed outside the plant. We have access to the 17 Marine Corps in the event of an event at San Onofre, 18 so I think we're very lucky in many respects to have 19 both the FBI and very professional County Sheriff's 20 Departments, the Highway Patrol, and the Marine Corps 21 to call upon in the event of an attack on San Onofre.

22 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

23 MR. HOWELL: Did that answer --

24 MS. BROWN: Have they ever thought about 25 using a water tube to remove -- placing them all along NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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71 1 highways?

2 THE REPORTER: I cannot hear you when you 3 talk without a microphone.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me, Miss. Could you 5 talk --

6 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I've got to give her a 7 mike back.

8 THE REPORTER: None of the last two 9 questions have been on the record. She has not had a 10 mike.

11 MS. BROWN: Has there been any thought of 12 ever using the ocean and boats to evacuate people 13 rather than for the congestion of freeways? I'm from 14 Colorado, so I don't understand some of your issues 15 out here.

16 MR. NUNN: No.

17 MS. BROWN: No. Okay.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Why not?

19 MS. BROWN: Why not?

20 MR. HOWELL: Who's that?

21 MR. NUNN: Who's got a boat?

22 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay.

23 MR. JOHNSON: We'd like to get your name 24 also so we can respond to some of your questions.

25 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Marianne Brown. Marianne NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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72 1 Brown. Okay? Steve Netherby.

2 MR. NETHERBY: Steve Netherby from San 3 Clemente. To truly enjoy family life in their quiet, 4 beautiful, throwback beach town, San Clemente citizens 5 live in a self-imposed state of denial, denial that we 6 might be inundated by urban sprawl, that an ill-7 conceived toll road might slice our irreplaceable and 8 globally priceless back-country in two and multiply 9 our I-5 traffic problems, that double-tracking might 10 wreck our beaches, and finally that a radiation 11 disaster at SONGS might make all our other local 12 threats seem less than trivial.

13 I'd like to read a paragraph from an 14 article that many of you may have seen in the June 24, 15 2002 Newsweek that shook some of us, at least 16 temporarily, from our denial state.

17 Jonathan Alter in his article "At the Core 18 of Nuclear Fear" was talking about Indian Point that's 19 been mentioned.

20 "At least the containment facility that 21 houses the reactor was designed to be 22 protected. Unless you include beefed-up 23 perimeter security after 9/11, the same 24 cannot be said of the nearby spent fuel 25 pools, the 38-foot-deep pools with no NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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73 1 hardened dome that house the depleted 2 fuel rod assemblies removed from the 3 reactor. Indian Point's three pools are 4 in bedrock, but at many other nuclear 5 plants (I won't tell you which ones) the 6 pools are above ground level. As Frank 7 Von Hipple of Princeton explained to me, 8 'If the water is somehow drained, the 9 rods could ignite in a horrendous 10 zirconium fire, releasing Cesium-137 that 11 would render hundreds of square miles 12 uninhabitable for generations, a horror 13 no pill could help.' The odds are very 14 low, but not low enough."

15 My questions are two, and we've discussed 16 one of them. Are our containment pools sufficiently 17 impermeable to seismic events, for instance, and 18 terrorist attack that could trigger such a disaster?

19 And, two, have SONGS security measures been 20 sufficiently hardened since 9/11 to protect against 21 the terrorist threats that have become such an 22 undeniable part of our daily lives, even in quiet, 23 beautiful San Clemente?

24 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. He had two questions.

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74 1 that people have ceded time to that also has Unit 1 2 questions, so should we let him talk first and get all 3 the questions or -- you want to do this to start?

4 MR. HOWELL: Yes.

5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. Who's --

6 MR. JOHNSON: I think the first question 7 -- the very last question you asked, you asked about 8 the zirconium fire. Am I correct? -- the first 9 question. Now, your last question -- let me -- I want 10 to make sure we address that.

11 As -- I think you mentioned about 12 security. I can say with the order that's been passed 13 down from the NRC, that the security -- the security 14 enhancements have definitely been improved. And I 15 want to make sure that you understand with all these 16 enhancements -- and, again, we can't get into 17 specifics -- but the security has definitely been 18 enhanced since 9/11. And to this day now, we have 19 security inspectors, NRC inspectors, that come to this 20 site and all other sites and review security measures 21 to determine or verify that the enhancements have been 22 implemented at the sites.

23 I think that was your last question. Did 24 I --

25 MR. NETHERBY: Yeah. And to cover the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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75 1 sort of press that this gentleman over here brought 2 up, are they to the level that you feel that that sort 3 of -- those sorts of threats can be effectively 4 avoided?

5 MR. HOWELL: I just wanted to add another 6 point to what Mr. Johnson said. In addition to all 7 those things, the NRC is continuing to analyze any 8 potential vulnerabilities associated with spent fuel 9 pools. In fact, some of the enhancements that we've 10 talked about in general terms have stemmed from some 11 of these ongoing reviews that have transpired over the 12 past year and a half. Not all those reviews have been 13 completed. They're still ongoing. And so the NRC is 14 further assessing not only impacts from different 15 potential terrorist threats not only to the spent fuel 16 pools but also to the plant -- plants overall.

17 And so one could expect that, in the 18 future, that there will be additional actions. But 19 there has been significant upgrading of security for 20 these pools and the site -- the site as a whole.

21 And I just want to point out that the 22 security that existed prior to 9/11 was quite robust.

23 If you look at what's going on at a national level, 24 one of the main focuses of not only the Federal 25 Government, but also state and local governments, is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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76 1 to -- to upgrade protection of critical 2 infrastructure, of which nuclear power plants are just 3 one small piece of, a very important piece. Nuclear 4 power plants prior to 9/11 had a robust security 5 protection scheme that has been enhanced. Further 6 reviews are ongoing, and we expect that additional 7 measures will be taken in the future.

8 In terms of zirconium fires, the NRC has 9 specifically assessed that potential for the drainage 10 of water and the potential for a fire from uncovered 11 spent fuel and, as you indicated, a fire can occur 12 under certain circumstances. The probability is very 13 low. And one of the reasons it's very low is that 14 there's multiple sources at the plant. I think 15 there's at least six or seven, if not more, pre-16 positioned sources to maintain water and keep that 17 fuel covered in case there was a problem with the 18 level of cooling -- or the level of water for the 19 spent fuel pool.

20 So --

21 MR. NETHERBY: Do you feel that the spent 22 fuel pool housing is -- is robust enough, to use your 23 term, to withstand a terrorist attack?

24 MR. HOWELL: That's a broad question and, 25 depending on how you define that -- you know, we can NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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77 1 talk about, you know, anything from one or two folks 2 trying to do something -- do ill toward the plant --

3 MR. NETHERBY: Let's say a shoulder-fired 4 missile from a parking lot.

5 MR. HOWELL: I can't -- I can't really get 6 into the details, but yes, the plant is very robust.

7 And you had a question about seismic, too, and the 8 plant is designed to withstand all the worst-case 9 predicted seismic events based on real data that 10 exists for this part of the country, as well as the 11 rest of the plant, for that matter. So --

12 MR. NETHERBY: And, Rick, are you going to 13 address seismic? Okay.

14 MR. HOWELL: Thank you.

15 MR. JOHNSON: Again, so we can capture all 16 your questions, please talk into the mike. Don't 17 start talking until we give you the mike. Thank you.

18 MS. NEIDHOLDT: The court reporter keeps 19 giving me dirty looks 'cause he can't hear you guys.

20 Richard Redfield. And you've had two 21 people cede their minutes to you, so you have nine 22 minutes.

23 MR. REDFIELD: Okay. I may not need all 24 of that time. I may be able to give it back. I hope 25 to wrap this up fairly quickly.

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78 1 I also want to address the spent fuel pool 2 at Unit 1 and the possibility of terrorism and the 3 vulnerability of that spent fuel pool. There's been 4 numerous -- there's been much debate in the United 5 States recently about exactly those issues, and there 6 are differing opinions, and those opinions haven't 7 been expressed here tonight.

8 Dr. Gordon Thompson has produced a 9 videotape that addresses some of those issues, and it 10 is available from Mothers for Peace at Diablo Canyon 11 and it is a very enlightening videotape to watch and 12 see those issues.

13 My main concern is about robustness and 14 ability of Unit 1 spent fuel pool to resist a 15 terrorist attack or a seismic event, particularly the 16 roof and supporting structures of the roof, and I'd 17 like the NRC and the plant officials to address those 18 issues.

19 In addition, I would like them to state 20 from that report, from the NRC report, the 21 consequences of a full-scale, fully-involved zirconium 22 fire at the Unit 1 spent fuel pool.

23 And I also believe that they are seriously 24 in error in their assessment of the security at the 25 plant in relation to the Unit 1 spent fuel pool, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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79 1 particularly in relation to truck bomb barriers, which 2 Paul Leventhal and Dan Hirsch spent ten years arguing 3 with the NRC to get those installed. They weren't 4 installed until 1994. The effort began in 1984. It 5 took ten years for those two activists to convince the 6 NRC to install truck bombs. I believe that there is 7 a serious deficiency concerning those types of 8 physical barriers at San Onofre Unit 1 near the spent 9 fuel pool.

10 Thank you very much.

11 MR. WALDO: Claude, --

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want us to 13 answer that?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, if you don't mind.

15 MR. WALDO: I'd like to bring up a couple 16 of points regarding the questions and try to address 17 the questions that were asked.

18 One thing to understand is that the fuel 19 at Unit 1 is stored below grade, below ground level; 20 all right? So water draining out of the spent fuel 21 pool would be a difficult thing to -- to anticipate.

22 Second of all, a zirconium fire is not 23 applicable. Unit 1's fuel was stainless steel, not 24 zirconium. The fuel at Unit 1 did not use zirconium.

25 Zirconium fire is not credible at Unit 1.

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80 1 The structure as designed, it's 2 seismically analyzed.

3 The other thing I guess I'll point out is 4 the last time that Unit 1 operated was in 1992. So 5 the heat load in the spent fuel pool is extremely low.

6 So there's no particular need to even cool the spent 7 fuel pool at all. The heat load is minor enough so 8 that the pool is slightly above room temperature and 9 that's it.

10 So, anyway, I think there may be concerns 11 that are raised for generic plant sites and things 12 like that. They're not applicable to Unit 1.

13 MR. REDFIELD: I'd like to -- I'd like the 14 members to address the possibility that there is fuel 15 from Units 2 and 3 stored at Unit 1, okay? And, also, 16 I'd like you to address the problem of truck bomb 17 barriers guarding the entrances to the spent fuel pool 18 at Unit 1.

19 MR. NUNN: We have barriers outside the 20 plant. I'm not aware of any problems with them. So 21 -- nor do I think there is any problems with them.

22 MR. REDFIELD: Without addressing too much 23 in the way of specifics, I'd like to say that I have 24 photographs that prove that there is a problem and you 25 should take a look at it.

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81 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Be happy to.

2 MR. JOHNSON: We'll get with you after the 3 meeting.

4 MR. REDFIELD: Thank you.

5 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

6 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Bill Freeman.

7 MR. FREEMAN: Hi. I'm just a resident of 8 San Clemente and I came down here basically because I 9 was worried about the possibility of an airplane 10 crashing into the facility, and I had a chance to talk 11 to the representative from Edison, and he basically 12 answered that he didn't think the risk was sufficient 13 enough to incur the expense.

14 And I was just wondering who makes those 15 calculations and who decides whether a 767 going into 16 that dome might cause a major problem, and maybe the 17 fellow from Pendleton could answer that question 18 because engineers didn't think that a plane going into 19 the World Trade Center would bring the entire 20 structure down either. So I was just wondering -- it 21 doesn't seem like it would cost that much to station 22 some surface-to-air missiles there. So -- and any 23 time I have left, --

24 MR. JOHNSON: Would you rephrase the 25 question? What is --

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82 1 MR. DRICKS: I got it. I got it.

2 MR. FREEMAN: He understands it. And then 3 if I've got two minutes left, I'd like to cede it to 4 Pam here.

5 MR. DRICKS: I'll try to answer your 6 question. Although the possibility of an aircraft 7 being deliberately crashed into a reactor was not 8 specifically analyzed, the NRC believes that the 9 containment buildings that surround the nuclear power 10 plants in the country are very robust in design, among 11 the hardest industrial targets in the country.

12 We have a number of studies that are 13 currently underway that will specifically analyze what 14 the effects could be. But at this point, as I say, we 15 think that the structures are extremely robust and 16 would probably be able to withstand that kind of an 17 impact. But there are a number of studies which are 18 currently underway that will look at specific 19 scenarios like that.

20 MR. FREEMAN: While those studies are 21 underway, is there any --

22 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me, sir. Please talk 23 into the microphone.

24 MR. FREEMAN: I need to use the 25 microphone. Okay. Since there is some possibility, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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83 1 I'm wondering what would be the problem or the 2 downside of stationing something there that could take 3 out an airliner if it was heading in? I mean, just 4 common sense.

5 MR. DRICKS: There have been a lot --

6 MR. FREEMAN: Maybe one, so I don't have 7 to come up here again, --

8 MR. DRICKS: Okay.

9 MR. FREEMAN: -- real quickly, you 10 mentioned that the airspace above San Onofre was 11 closed for loitering. I mean, that indicates that 12 there must be some concern, but I don't think that a 13 plane would loiter before it came in. So there must 14 be some, again, concern there. That's why you've 15 instituted that no-fly loitering zone. It doesn't 16 sound like there's a no-fly zone. There's no hanging 17 around up above the plant zone. So that would be, you 18 know -- wondering what -- I mean, what would be the 19 expense of --

20 MR. JOHNSON: It's just not San Onofre, 21 sir. It's just not San Onofre. This is -- this is at 22 all power plants.

23 MR. DRICKS: There have been notices to 24 airmen that have been issued by the FAA that basically 25 prohibit the planes from, as you say, loitering in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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84 1 vicinity of the plants. Over the last year and a 2 half, there have been a number of incidents of planes 3 that have strayed too close into the airspace of some 4 nuclear plants and have been either intercepted by 5 military aircraft or have had interviews with the FBI 6 immediately when they landed. There have been a 7 number of suggestions made over the last year and a 8 half about different approaches that might be taken to 9 protect the plants. These range from placement of 10 anti-aircraft guns around the plants to the 11 construction of some sort of structure that would 12 protect the airspace over the plant or deflect it.

13 All of these things are currently under 14 consideration. Clearly, the plants were not designed 15 to be able to withstand acts of war. In light of 16 9/11, we realize that the previous threat that we 17 asked the plants to be able to defend themselves 18 against scenarios that were not considered probable, 19 are now considered possible. Nobody anticipated the 20 possibility of kamikaze attacks into a nuclear plant.

21 So all of those things are being looked 22 at. We have a number of -- we have the National 23 Laboratories working with us to try to come up with 24 some solutions to the problem. And we've been working 25 on it for the last year and a half.

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85 1 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. Ricardo Nicol.

2 MR. NICOL: Thank you. The focus, of 3 course, in terrorist attack is naturally predominant 4 right now. It's certainly a possibility. But there 5 is the other hazard, which is not only possible but a 6 virtual certainty and it would bear -- bring forces to 7 bear on San Onofre and the surrounding area greater 8 than any terrorist attack, and that's of course a 9 catastrophic earthquake.

10 Given that -- that earthquakes -- recent 11 earthquakes in the last 15 years around Los Angeles, 12 Southern California, have rendered the freeways 13 unpassable due to falling bridges and other things, 14 the freeways in a catastrophic earthquake are not 15 usable. All you have to do is have one bridge come 16 down and that's -- that's the end of that freeway as 17 an escape route.

18 So the -- the Indian Point -- with that as 19 a preamble, the Indian Point, a New York nuclear 20 plant, an emergency evacuation plan was recently 21 submitted to a review and analysis by an independent 22 panel of experts. That process resulted in the 23 discovery and public awareness of many severe 24 weaknesses in the emergency plan. The review of the 25 Indian Point plan cost about $800,000. Given that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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86 1 Southern California Edison has received billions of 2 dollars in stranded assets and may receive further 3 money, bailout money from the citizens of California, 4 would Southern California Edison and the San Onofre 5 Nuclear Plant be willing to provide money to allow 6 performance of an equally independent and 7 comprehensive analysis of the emergency plan for the 8 San Onofre Nuclear Plant?

9 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. Stay here.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Would you --

11 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. Did you -- did you 12 want to stay here in case you want to ask another 13 question?

14 MR. NICOL: Yes.

15 MR. NUNN: Our emergency plan is 16 independently assessed by both the Federal Emergency 17 Management Agency -- almost said Commission -- and the 18 Nuclear Regulatory Commission. You've heard a number 19 of people here tonight, including things that were 20 brought up in the Witt (ph) report, which you referred 21 to, that indicated that our communications, our 22 drills, and the assessment of our program is very 23 high. So we don't -- I don't basically agree with 24 your premise that it needs yet another independent 25 assessment.

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87 1 MR. NICOL: What about the subject of 2 freeways being -- being -- I'm sure they're a big 3 component of the emergency evacuation plan. Given 4 that they would be rendered unusable in an event of a 5 catastrophic earthquake, what alternatives are there, 6 if any?

7 MR. NUNN: Well, as a result of some of 8 the earthquakes you mentioned, the freeway overpasses 9 have been upgraded, and I think you can see that in 10 several modifications on some of the older overpasses 11 in this vicinity.

12 The San Onofre Plant is designed for a 13 very substantial earthquake, which would not cause a 14 -- the safety systems nor San Onofre would not fail in 15 the event of a very substantial earthquake. So the 16 combination of the freeway -- or the overpasses being 17 upgraded as a result of earthquakes throughout 18 California, to a higher standard than those that were 19 built that failed in the Pacoima and other 20 earthquakes, and the high seismic design of San 21 Onofre, indicate that that's adequate protection for 22 the public health and safety.

23 MR. NICOL: I listened to what you're 24 saying, and the -- and I can remember the earthquake 25 in Pacoima or Sylmar earthquake, the bridges did come NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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88 1 down. But then also the freeway right away itself 2 buckled to the point that it was unusable. So I don't 3 know whether the roadway itself has been upgraded to 4 take care of that. It wasn't just the bridges coming 5 down. The buckling of the roadway itself made it 6 impossible. And I know that from first -- personal 7 experience because I tried to negotiate those freeways 8 after going through Ventura County and they were 9 totally unpassable, not just because of the bridges 10 but also because the roadway buckled for miles and it 11 was impossible.

12 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Pam Patterson.

13 MS. PATTERSON: I've been studying this 14 issue for about two weeks, so I'm pretty new to it.

15 But one of my questions was what is the role that the 16 NRC plays? Because it doesn't seem to me, just based 17 on what I've seen tonight, that it's a neutral role.

18 I mean, you seem more like an advocate and you're 19 using conclusionary wording, such as "very low safety 20 significance" and, you know, that the plant was 21 effectively managed. I mean, I don't know. It seems 22 like if it was effectively managed, we wouldn't be 23 having this hearing tonight.

24 Also, you know, I don't see any other 25 people that you've brought up to speak as far as what NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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89 1 the opposing issues are so, to me, you don't seem like 2 you're neutral -- you're not playing a neutral role.

3 My big concern, obviously, is the security 4 of the power plant. I have small children that live 5 in -- you know, we live in San Juan Capistrano. And 6 actually, from what I've now been seeing and 7 researching, it doesn't seem like it's secure to me.

8 There -- you know, there's this Princeton study that 9 just came out February 13th of this year that refers 10 to the High Density Storage Systems of those fuel rods 11 that a couple people already mentioned, and it says 12 that -- and, actually, they're specifically looking at 13 -- it's a study entitled "High Density Storage of 14 Nuclear Waste Heightens Terrorism Risks."

15 Now, these people don't have a vested 16 interest in the outcome, which I kind of feel like you 17 people do, and obviously Southern California Edison 18 has a vested interest in the outcome of this hearing.

19 Princeton, obviously, is, you know, one of -- a 20 renowned institution in the United States, and I think 21 that we all respect studies that Princeton does.

22 So it says here, "High Density Storage of 23 Nuclear Waste Heightens Terrorism Risks." And it 24 specifically is talking about the way that these rods 25 are not being properly stored. I guess that maybe NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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90 1 there wasn't enough space allocated for the rods. And 2 so because they're, you know, packing in more rods 3 than they should, it's increased the density and has 4 -- it says that -- excuse me.

5 MR. NUNN: Excuse us.

6 MS. PATTERSON: Thank you. Basically, 7 what it says here is that it could contaminate -- that 8 a fire -- if the water in these tanks leaked, it would 9 cause a fire which could contaminate a land area eight 10 to 70 times greater than that in the Chernobyl 11 incident, which if you do the math, that's somewhere 12 between 160-mile radius up to 1400 miles which, you 13 know, obviously, that's a concern.

14 Okay. So -- so that's one of my -- you 15 know, I want that addressed.

16 I want to know -- you know, you say that 17 you're considering or you're looking into I guess how 18 you're going to handle planes coming over the power 19 plant. I mean, so -- I mean, to me, it seems like 20 you're in the default, that a terrorist attack is not 21 going to happen. Obviously, since September 11th, you 22 know, we should all be pretty much clued in on the 23 fact that, yes, it can happen and it did happen and 24 now we're at war; okay? So it's a completely 25 different situation.

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91 1 And -- so, you know, waiting until a plane 2 lands and then you're going to have the FBI talk to 3 them, that's not really sufficient. You people have 4 an absolute responsibility to secure that plant. So 5 I want to know what is your no-flight policy?

6 And I know that you like to keep saying, 7 Well, it's, you know, confidential and we can't give 8 you the specifics. Well, then, you know, we have 9 concerned citizens here. Let's get some people 10 together who have a security clearance, that know the 11 issues and are familiar with it, that we can trust and 12 then you can meet with them and you can give them the 13 specifics so that we know that all bases are covered.

14 Because I don't want to just rely on the 15 fact that we have -- you have enhanced security; okay?

16 My kids' lives are not going to depend on that. I 17 have -- no, excuse me. I have time ceded.

18 (Applause.)

19 Thank you. Okay. So I also wanted to 20 know -- oh, even -- you know, here your own what? --

21 the spokesperson for the power plant, I mean, does 22 this instill you with confidence? They said --

23 they're using retired -- you know, retired military 24 and police people to guard the gate at San Onofre. I 25 want to know how old these people are -- 65, you know.

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92 1 Good, let's go get the retirees, you know.

2 In the City of San Clemente, the Domestic 3 Terrorism Preparedness, their like official statement, 4 is that, "The City of San Clemente is not considered 5 a high-risk area as are cities with high population 6 densities." Are you people crazy? Okay. They 7 already did New York City. What do you think is a 8 prime target next? L.A. maybe? And what's L.A.'s 9 nuclear power plant? What can you get more bang for 10 the buck than hitting San Onofre? Okay? I mean, it 11 takes nothing. They'll take out Hollywood. They'll 12 take out L.A. They'll take out the whole region. And 13 you people are basing it on the fact that it's not 14 high risk because San Clemente doesn't have a high 15 population density? I mean, come on.

16 And then it also says here, "Also, the 17 likelihood of a terrorist attack reaching the 18 containment vessels at SONGS is remote." Well, you 19 know what? It was pretty remote that they would take 20 down the World Trade Center, too, so maybe you'd 21 better start considering remote.

22 And then this. And you know what? If 23 we're so secure, why are you handing out pills?

24 (Applause.)

25 This -- I just love this. Okay. This is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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93 1 the spokesperson for Ray Golden, the spokesperson for 2 the power plant. "We could further enhance security 3 if we feel we need to be more vigilant. We do have 4 the capability if we were ever to identify a credible 5 and real threat to call upon other resources." You 6 really think somebody's going to give you a phone 7 call, "We're planning to hit the plant next Thursday"?

8 Is that what you think? You know, I don't know what 9 -- what more you need. Okay. We freakin' have taken 10 on these terrorists and so we're at war.

11 And they -- you know, so, anyway, I'm not 12 really happy. I don't feel confident. I don't feel 13 secure. I feel that my children's lives are at risk.

14 And I feel like the lives of everybody around here are 15 at risk and you're playing with us. Okay? You're not 16 taking it seriously.

17 And you know what? The evacuation plan, 18 are you people crazy? Have you ever tried to be on 19 the freeway even at rush hour? How long does it take 20 to get from San Juan to Santa Ana? An hour. And 21 that's just a typical day, you know. You kidding me?

22 (Applause.)

23 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.

24 MR. JOHNSON: We'd like to get with you 25 after that, but I want to make one thing clear. I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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94 1 don't know if you heard when I first opened this 2 presentation, I stated the purpose of this 3 presentation, and I thought that was clear. And if I 4 didn't make that come across, I apologize for that.

5 But I think I did state the purpose of 6 what the NRC's role was, and I don't know if you were 7 here at the time. So if not, we'll get together and 8 I'll explain to you the role.

9 MS. PATTERSON: Is it a PR thing? Is it 10 a PR thing? I mean, --

11 MR. JOHNSON: I guess I don't understand 12 the question of what our purpose -- I gave you the 13 purpose of what this meeting was about. So maybe we 14 need to talk a little bit after that.

15 MS. PATTERSON: I don't believe -- I just 16 don't like that, you know, it's like your little 17 Powerpoint presentation -- you know, it's like, come 18 on. You're just trying to make us -- you're just 19 trying to placate us. Okay? You're not addressing 20 any of the real issues. You're not giving us any real 21 information. You know, let us be the judge if there's 22 a low safety security risk. You know, don't give us 23 conclusionary language. We want to know what's going 24 on. And the fact that there's a hearing here at all 25 tonight shows that it's not being run properly.

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95 1 MR. JOHNSON: That's --

2 MS. PATTERSON: Or there wouldn't be a --

3 you've exceeded the number of --

4 MR. JOHNSON: This is not a hearing. This 5 is a presentation of an annual assessment of the 6 licensee's performance. I'm sorry if you weren't here 7 at the beginning of this presentation, but I thought 8 I made the purpose very clear, and I will go over it 9 again after this. We'll get together and I'll state 10 our purpose again. We'll get your concerns. But I 11 stated the purpose very clearly I thought.

12 MR. DRICKS: Let me try to respond to a 13 number of the things that you said. We are an 14 independent regulatory agency. What you heard and 15 characterized as conclusions were conclusions that 16 were drawn on the basis of experts that we have who 17 work for the agency. They're nuclear engineers, 18 electrical engineers, security experts, inspectors 19 like the residents who are permanently assigned to 20 each of the facilities in the country. They spend 21 time going through the plant each day, interviewing 22 people, looking at records, and drawing conclusions.

23 The reason we have this meeting is so that 24 at least once a year we give you, the members of the 25 public, an opportunity to meet with the federal NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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96 1 officials who are mostly in Washington, D.C. or in 2 Arlington, Texas that you might normally not have a 3 chance to interact with and get to see that they're 4 people who, like yourself, live in the community, who 5 have children and families here, who are not going to 6 do anything to endanger those people, and so that you 7 can get some of your questions answered.

8 Now, you asked a lot of questions and I 9 understand that you're pretty upset about them. I'll 10 try to respond to as many as I can recall. You asked 11 again about the spent fuel pools, and it's a theme 12 that we've heard a lot about tonight. As the folks 13 from Southern California Edison indicated, in two 14 thirds of the power plants in the United States with 15 pressurized water reactors, the spent fuel pools are 16 located below ground level. That means that in order 17 to penetrate -- the study that you talked about at 18 Princeton presumes that one were able to draw -- knock 19 a hole in the bottom of a 40-foot-deep pool. All 20 right? These pools are filled with water. They have 21 walls that are three or four or five feet thick of 22 steel and reinforced concrete. For the purpose of 23 that Princeton study, they looked at -- they asked the 24 question, What would happen if we drained all the 25 water out of one of these spent fuel pools and the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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97 1 spent fuel was then allowed to catch fire?

2 So there's a couple things that would 3 preclude that. The first is the fact that these walls 4 are three or four feet thick. The second is that you 5 would have -- you would have to drill a hole 6 perpendicularly through the very bottom of the pool 7 and have all the water drain out. The third thing is 8 that the folks at the plant wouldn't -- would just sit 9 by and do nothing and let all the water drain out of 10 the pool and not make any attempt to cover the fuel.

11 MS. PATTERSON: But what you're doing is 12 you're basing your information just on what Southern 13 California Edison is providing you, who obviously has 14 a vested interest in that plant. And, secondly, I 15 don't want to know how it can't happen. I want some 16 people that --

17 MR. DRICKS: Well, --

18 MS. PATTERSON: -- know about this to tell 19 us how it can happen and then you need to make sure 20 that it doesn't happen.

21 MR. DRICKS: We are making sure it doesn't 22 happen because --

23 MS. PATTERSON: And I want to know how 24 you --

25 MR. DRICKS: Because we -- because we have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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98 1 inspectors who are at the plants --

2 MS. PATTERSON: And I want to know who the 3 inspectors are. I don't --

4 MR. DRICKS: They're sitting right in 5 front of you, these --

6 MS. PATTERSON: Yeah, but I don't think 7 you're a neutral party. I can tell by the way that 8 you're talking that you are advocates of nuclear --

9 MR. DRICKS: We're not advocates of 10 nuclear power.

11 MS. PATTERSON: I can tell by this whole 12 presentation.

13 MR. DRICKS: Well, all I can say is we're 14 an independent safety regulator. Our job is to ensure 15 that --

16 MS. PATTERSON: Well, I think that we 17 should be able -- concerned citizens should be able to 18 get our group of people that have the security 19 clearance required and then you -- and then they will 20 assure us that you're doing it properly.

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Independent group.

22 MR. HOWELL: Yes. As Victor indicated, 23 you have a lot of issues. We understand you're upset.

24 What we would offer is that perhaps we could get with 25 you and -- so that we capture all the concerns and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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99 1 that we -- it's a lot of information for us to process 2 here tonight, and we really very much want to 3 understand in detail all the issues so that we can --

4 MS. PATTERSON: And I want you to think 5 about all the kids that live here.

6 MR. HOWELL: Believe me, we do. We do.

7 We have folks that live in the community --

8 MS. PATTERSON: Yeah, but they don't see 9 us. Okay? I -- and I don't have any confidence in 10 the security over there. And you're handing out 11 pills? You know, the fact that you're handing out 12 pills for people to take is, per se, you know -- I 13 mean, we don't even need to discuss it any further 14 than that. If you think that there is any reason that 15 we need to be taking these pills, you need to freaking 16 get on the security issue.

17 MS. NEIDHOLDT: We do need to move on, and 18 I need to say one thing. I've been with the NRC for 19 12 years. All but eight, I've lived in San Clemente.

20 I've raised two kids. I'm not a stupid person.

21 MS. PATTERSON: That was before the 22 terrorists --

23 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I just want you to know my 24 kids are fine.

25 MS. PATTERSON: -- came to this country.

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100 1 You know, that was before the World Trade Center.

2 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay.

3 MS. PATTERSON: It's a different 4 situation.

5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: That -- okay.

6 MS. PATTERSON: We're at war.

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Point of order. In 8 the documents we were shown, it says NRC performance 9 goals are to enhance public confidence.

10 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. That concludes the 11 question-and-answer portion of which I have people on 12 the list. Okay? Everyone that was on the list that 13 wanted to speak has had their time. I thank you very 14 much. I'm going to turn this back over to Mr.

15 Johnson.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Stefani. For 17 those that apparently we didn't satisfy on our 18 question and answers, I would like for you to get with 19 us after this meeting and we'll document your concerns 20 and try to provide you a formal response of some type.

21 However, it would be much easier and it's over now, 22 but if you'd have spoke into the microphone, we could 23 have documented it a little better. And I think our 24 court reporter had a hard time to capture all that.

25 But we'll be -- we'll stay around -- we'll be --

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101 1 several of us will stay around this afternoon --

2 tonight -- to capture your concerns specifically.

3 Art, do you have anything you want to add 4 to this?

5 MR. HOWELL: Might want to ask Mr. Nunn.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Nunn?

7 MR. NUNN: None.

8 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. We appreciate your 9 attendance tonight, and that concludes our 10 presentation tonight. And I just want to make sure --

11 this is not a hearing. This was an annual assessment 12 of the licensee's performance.

13 Thank you.

14 (Whereupon, at 9:26 a.m., the assessment 15 meeting was concluded.)

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