ML031640140
| ML031640140 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | San Onofre  |
| Issue date: | 05/16/2003 |
| From: | Clay Johnson NRC/RGN-IV/DRP |
| To: | Ray H Southern California Edison Co |
| References | |
| Download: ML031640140 (152) | |
Text
AANNUAL ASSESSMENT NNUAL ASSESSMENT MEETING MEETING Nuclear Regulatory Commission Nuclear Regulatory Commission Region IV Region IV
NRC Meeting Purpose NRC Meeting Purpose
- Meeting with Licensee and Public Meeting with Licensee and Public
- Inform Public of Plant Performance Inform Public of Plant Performance
NRC Meeting Guidelines NRC Meeting Guidelines
- Registration Table Registration Table
- Questions and Answers Questions and Answers
- Feedback Forms Feedback Forms
- Handouts Handouts
Regional Organization Regional Organization Regional Administrator Region IV Director Division of Reactor Projects Deputy Director Division of Reactor Projects Chief Branch A
Chief Branch B
Chief Branch C
Chief Branch D
Chief Branch E
Chief Branch F
Director Division of Reactor Safety Chief EMB Chief OB Chief PS San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station
San San Onofre Onofre Nuclear Generating Nuclear Generating Station (SONGS)
Station (SONGS)
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Nuclear Regulatory Commission Region IV Region IV
NRC PERFORMANCE GOALS NRC PERFORMANCE GOALS
- Maintain public safety and Maintain public safety and protect the environment protect the environment
- Enhance public confidence Enhance public confidence
- Improve:
Improve:
- Effectiveness
- Effectiveness
- - Efficiency Efficiency
- Realism of processes and decision making
- Realism of processes and decision making
- Reduce unnecessary regulatory Reduce unnecessary regulatory burden burden
Assessment of Safety Performance Assessment of Safety Performance at the San at the San Onofre Onofre Nuclear Nuclear Generating Station Generating Station
Meeting Agenda Meeting Agenda
- REGULATORY OVERSIGHT REGULATORY OVERSIGHT
- FINDINGS AND ASSESSMENTS FINDINGS AND ASSESSMENTS
- ADDITIONAL FOCUS AREAS ADDITIONAL FOCUS AREAS
- QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
6712 2928 3280 Headquarters - 6712 Regional - 3280 Resident - 2928 Overall NRC Effort Overall NRC Effort Total hours - 12920 Total hours - 12920
Resident Inspectors Resident Inspectors Stationed at the plant Stationed at the plant Prompt response capability Prompt response capability 2928 hours0.0339 days <br />0.813 hours <br />0.00484 weeks <br />0.00111 months <br /> of oversight 2928 hours0.0339 days <br />0.813 hours <br />0.00484 weeks <br />0.00111 months <br /> of oversight
Regional Inspectors Regional Inspectors Specialized Specialized Inspection teams Inspection teams 3280 hours0.038 days <br />0.911 hours <br />0.00542 weeks <br />0.00125 months <br /> of oversight 3280 hours0.038 days <br />0.911 hours <br />0.00542 weeks <br />0.00125 months <br /> of oversight
Comprehensive Oversight Comprehensive Oversight Program Program NRCS NRCS Overall Overall Safety Safety Mission Mission PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY AS A RESULT OF CIVILIAN NUCLEAR REACTOR OPERATION Strategic Performance Strategic Performance Areas Areas REACTOR SAFETY RADIATION SAFETY PLANT SECURITY SAFETY CORNERSTONES
NRC Oversight Activities NRC Oversight Activities
- Based on a logical and sound framework Based on a logical and sound framework
- Provide assurance plants are:
Provide assurance plants are:
-- Operating safely Operating safely
-- Complying with regulations Complying with regulations
- Inspections focused on key safety areas Inspections focused on key safety areas
- Objective indicators of performance Objective indicators of performance
- Assessment program triggers regulatory Assessment program triggers regulatory actions actions
Reactor Oversight Process Reactor Oversight Process Baseline Inspection Results Significance Threshold Significance Threshold Performance Indicator Results Regulatory Response Strategic Performance areas Safety Cornerstones Action Matrix
Baseline Inspection Program Baseline Inspection Program
- Conducted at all plants Conducted at all plants
- Gathers objective evidence of plant safety Gathers objective evidence of plant safety
- Focuses on safety-significant Focuses on safety-significant::
-- systems systems
-- components components
-- activities activities
-- events events
Baseline Inspection Program Baseline Inspection Program
- Inspection reports describe significant Inspection reports describe significant findings and non-compliance findings and non-compliance
- Inspection reports are publicly accessible Inspection reports are publicly accessible www.NRC.
www.NRC.gov gov/reading-
/reading-rm rm//adams adams.html
.html
Event Follow-up and Event Follow-up and Supplemental Inspections Supplemental Inspections
- Review events for significance Review events for significance
- Follow-up significant inspection findings Follow-up significant inspection findings
- Determine causes of performance declines Determine causes of performance declines to ensure effective corrective actions to ensure effective corrective actions
- Provide for graduated response Provide for graduated response
Reactor Oversight Process Reactor Oversight Process YELLOW YELLOW GREEN GREEN WHITE WHITE RED RED SAFETY SIGNIFICANCE SAFETY SIGNIFICANCE
- very low
- very low
- low to moderate
- low to moderate
- substantial
- substantial
- high
- high
Performance Indicator Performance Indicator Program Program
- Licensee monitors key safety parameters Licensee monitors key safety parameters
- Data supplied to NRC quarterly Data supplied to NRC quarterly
- Data verified by NRC Data verified by NRC
Performance Indicators Performance Indicators
- Performance indicator results and other Performance indicator results and other assessment information available on the assessment information available on the NRCs NRCs public web site:
public web site:
www.NRC.
www.NRC.gov gov/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/
/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/
SANO2/sano2_chart.html SANO2/sano2_chart.html www.NRC.
www.NRC.gov gov/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/
/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/
SANO3/sano3_chart.html SANO3/sano3_chart.html
Performance Indicators Performance Indicators Unplanned Scrams per 7000 critical hours Unplanned Scrams per 7000 critical hours Thresholds:
Thresholds:
White White >3.0,
>3.0, Yellow >6.0, Yellow >6.0, Red Red >25.0
>25.0 2.7 2.7 0.9 0.9 0.9 0.9 Indicator value Indicator value 2124.1 2124.1 2190.4 2190.4 1206.2 1206.2 Critical hours Critical hours 11 00 11 Actual scrams Actual scrams 4Q/02 4Q/02 3Q/02 3Q/02 2Q/02 2Q/02 Unplanned scrams per 7000 critical hours Unplanned scrams per 7000 critical hours 00 55 10 10 15 15 20 20 25 25 2Q/02 2Q/02 3Q/02 3Q/02 4Q/02 4Q/02
Key Aspects of the Key Aspects of the Assessment Program Assessment Program
- Objective review of licensee performance Objective review of licensee performance
- Action Matrix to determine agency Action Matrix to determine agency response in three areas:
response in three areas:
-- Inspection Inspection
-- Management Involvement Management Involvement
-- Regulatory Actions Regulatory Actions
- Plant specific assessment letters Plant specific assessment letters
- Information on NRC public web site Information on NRC public web site
Plant Safety Plant Safety Performance Summary Performance Summary
Plant Specific Data Plant Specific Data Name of Plant: San Onofre Nuclear Generation Station Plant Operator: Southern California Edison Number of Units: 2 (Operating)
Reactor Type & Vendor: Pressurized Water Reactor/
Combustion Engineering Location: San Clemente, CA Power Output (electrical): 2260 Mwe (Total)
Source of Circulating Water: Pacific Ocean
Major Plant Activities in 2002 Major Plant Activities in 2002 Inspected by NRC Inspected by NRC
- IEB 2002-02 Reactor Pressure Vessel Head and Vessel Penetration Nozzle Inspection Programs performed during 2002 refueling outage
- Installation of additional security barriers
Inspection Results Inspection Results
- NRC and Licensee identified inspection NRC and Licensee identified inspection findings were of very low safety findings were of very low safety significance significance
- A number of human performance issues
- A number of human performance issues were identified during this assessment were identified during this assessment period period
- Licensee is addressing these issues
- Licensee is addressing these issues
SONGS 4Q/2002 Performance Summary SONGS 4Q/2002 Performance Summary Reactor Safety Radiation Safety Safeguards Initiating Events Mitigating Systems Barrier Integrity Emergency Preparedness Occupational Radiation Safety Public Radiation Safety Physical Protection No Findings this quarter Most Significant Inspection Findings No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter GREEN GREEN GREEN No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter GREEN GREEN No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter GREEN No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter No Findings this quarter 4Q 2002 3Q 2002 2Q 2002 1Q 2002 Miscellaneous findings
SONGS 4Q/2002 Performance Summary SONGS 4Q/2002 Performance Summary Reactor Safety Radiation Safety Safeguards Initiating Events Mitigating Systems Barrier Integrity Emergency Preparedness Occupational Radiation Safety Public Radiation Safety Physical Protection Unplanned Scrams Scrams With Loss Of Normal Heat Removal Unplanned Power Changes Emergency AC Power System Unavailability High Pressure Injection System Unavailability Heat Removal System Unavailability Residual Heat Removal System Unavailability Safety System Functional Failures Reactor Coolant System Activity Reactor Coolant System Leakage Drill/Exercise Performance ERO Drill Participation Alert and Notification System Occupational Exposure Control Effectiveness RETS/ODCM Radiological Effluent Protected Area Equipment Personnel Screening Program FFD/Personnel Reliability Program Performance Indicators
Performance Indicator Performance Indicator Results Results All performance indicators within the All performance indicators within the Licensee Control Band during 2002 Licensee Control Band during 2002
Assessment Conclusion Assessment Conclusion Licensee effectively managed:
Licensee effectively managed:
-- Reactor safety Reactor safety
-- Radiation safety Radiation safety
-- Plant security Plant security San San Onofre Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Nuclear Generating Station operated in a manner that protected operated in a manner that protected the health and safety of the public the health and safety of the public
LICENSEE RESPONSE LICENSEE RESPONSE
Additional Focus Areas Additional Focus Areas
- NRC Responds As-Needed NRC Responds As-Needed
- Mandated Licensee Actions Mandated Licensee Actions
- Implemented Emergency Plans Implemented Emergency Plans
Nuclear Industry Issues Nuclear Industry Issues
- Reactor Vessel Head Penetration Reactor Vessel Head Penetration Inspection Inspection
- Security at Nuclear Power Plants Security at Nuclear Power Plants
Reactor Vessel Head Penetration Reactor Vessel Head Penetration Inspection Inspection
- Davis Davis Besse Besse - Significant reactor vessel head
- Significant reactor vessel head degradation identified near one of its degradation identified near one of its penetrations.
- NRC Bulletin 2002-02 Reactor Pressure
- NRC Bulletin 2002-02 Reactor Pressure Vessel Head & Vessel Penetration Nozzles Vessel Head & Vessel Penetration Nozzles
- No degradation identified
- No degradation identified
Security at Nuclear Power Plants Security at Nuclear Power Plants Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
- Continues to work in concert with:
Continues to work in concert with:
- Licensees
- Licensees
- State and local officials
- State and local officials
Security at Nuclear Power Plants Security at Nuclear Power Plants
- NRC created Office of Nuclear Security and NRC created Office of Nuclear Security and Incident Response (NSIR)
Incident Response (NSIR)
- Threat Advisory and Protective Measures Threat Advisory and Protective Measures System:
System:
- Communicates threats potentially affecting NRC
- Communicates threats potentially affecting NRC licensees licensees
- Corresponds to color-coded Homeland Security
- Corresponds to color-coded Homeland Security Presidential Directive Presidential Directive
- Identifies specific actions to be taken by NRC
- Identifies specific actions to be taken by NRC licensees for each threat level licensees for each threat level
Security at Nuclear Power Plants Security at Nuclear Power Plants Top-to-bottom review of Security Program Top-to-bottom review of Security Program Issuance of Orders/Interim Compensatory Issuance of Orders/Interim Compensatory Measures (ICM)
Measures (ICM)
Verification of licensee actions regarding Verification of licensee actions regarding ICMs ICMs Nuclear facilities are far ahead of other Nuclear facilities are far ahead of other industries with regard to the level of industries with regard to the level of security security
Future Outlook Future Outlook
- Power Power Uprates Uprates
- License Renewal License Renewal
Contacting the NRC Contacting the NRC
- Report an Report an Emergency Emergency::
(301) 816-5100 (collect)
(301) 816-5100 (collect)
- Report a Report a Safety Concern Safety Concern::
(800) 695-7403 or Allegation@
(800) 695-7403 or Allegation@nrc nrc..gov gov
- General Information or questions:
General Information or questions:
www.
www.nrc nrc..gov gov Select What we do for Public Affairs Select What we do for Public Affairs
Contacts for Additional Information
- Regional Public Affairs Officer
- Phone: (817) 860 - 8128
- State Liaison Officer
- William (Bill) Maier
- Phone: (817) 860 - 8267
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Annual Assessment Meeting for the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Docket Number:
(not applicable)
Location:
San Clemente, California Date:
Thursday, April 3, 2003 Work Order No.:
NRC-N/A Pages 1-101 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers
1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 ANNUAL ASSESSMENT MEETING FOR THE 4
SAN ONOFRE NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION 5
+ + + + +
6 PUBLIC MEETING 7
+ + + + +
8
- THURSDAY, 9
APRIL 3, 2003 10
+ + + + +
11 SAN CLEMENTE, CALIFORNIA 12
+ + + + +
13 The meeting was held at 7:00 p.m. at the 14 Country Inn, 35 Via Pico Plaza, San Clemente, 15 California.
16 PRESENT 17 FOR THE U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION:
18 CLAUDE E. JOHNSON, Chief, Project Branch C 19 Division of Reactor Projects 20 CLYDE OSTERHOLTZ, Senior Resident Inspector 21 Division of Reactor Projects 22 MARK A. SITEK, Resident Inspector 23 Division of Reactor Projects 24 25
2 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 ART HOWELL, Director, Division of Reactor Projects 1
HERB BERKOW, Project Director, Division of Licensing 2
Project Management, Office of Nuclear Reactor 3
Regulation, Rockville, Maryland 4
STEPHEN DEMBEK, Chief, Project Directorate IV 5
Division of Licensing Project Management 6
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 7
Rockville, Maryland 8
VICTOR DRICKS, Public Affairs Officer 9
STEFANI NEIDHOLDT, Site Secretary 10 San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station 11 12 FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON:
13 DWIGHT NUNN, Vice President of Engineering 14 and Technical Services 15 RAY WALDO, Plant Manager 16 JOE WAMBOLD, Vice President of Nuclear Generation 17 18 ALSO PRESENT:
19 BRIAN PERRY, Chairman, Interjurisdictional Planning 20 Committee, San Juan Capistrano Emergency Planning 21 Office 22 JIM RUSSELL, Emergency Planning Office 23 City of San Clemente 24 25
3 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 ALSO PRESENT:
1 LEN HAYES, Orange County Emergency Management 2
DON MONAHAN, California State Parks and Recreation 3
PETE LAWRENCE, Oceanside Fire Department 4
JAN SENER, Chairperson, Public Information Officer 5
SONGS Emergency Center 6
JOE CRAMER, United States Marine Corps 7
Camp Pendleton, California 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
4 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I-N-D-E-X 1
SPEAKERS PAGE 2
Russell Hoffman 39 3
Sharon Hoffman 42 4
Dan Farrell 54 5
R.K. Dickie 56 6
Lyn Harris Hicks 60 7
Marianne Brown 64 8
Steve Netherby 72 9
Richard Redfield 77 10 Bill Freeman 81 11 Ricardo Nicol 85 12 Pam Patterson 88 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
5 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
(7:00 p.m.)
2 MR. JOHNSON: Good evening and welcome to 3
the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission's 4
Annual Assessment Meeting for the San Onofre Nuclear 5
Generating Station.
6 My name is Claude Johnson. I am the 7
Branch Chief for Branch C, Division of Reactor 8
Projects, in the Region IV office in Arlington, Texas.
9 My branch has oversight responsibility for the San 10 Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. I am very pleased 11 to be here with you today, and we appreciate your 12 attendance here tonight.
13 The purpose of this meeting is to publicly 14 present the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's assessment 15 of the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station's safety 16 performance for the past year. This is done at the 17 end of each annual inspection cycle to publicly and 18 formally inform our licensees of the results of our 19 safety performance assessments.
20 Before we get to the results, I have a few 21 announcements and some meeting guidelines that we'd 22 like to address. You may have noticed the 23 registration table as you came in. We have attendance 24 sheets back there we'd like for you to sign up. And 25
6 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 also if you have any questions that you may want to 1
present tonight, to sign up on that list and we'll go 2
in that particular order as Stephanie, Ms. Neidholdt, 3
will be reading the list after we complete this during 4
our question-and-answer period for each of you that 5
sign that list back there. So we appreciate if you'd 6
do that.
7 Following our formal presentation, we have 8
a question-and-answer period. And, if you wish, 9
please use the question-and-answer forms on the 10 registration table to fill out those particular forms.
11 And if it's a question or answer that we can't 12 address, we will formally respond to you by mail.
13 This will allow us at least formally to capture the 14 topic of your questions.
15 As you can see, we also have a court 16 reporter here tonight. He will be recording the 17 meeting and this will help us answer any questions 18 accurately that you may have that we'll capture when 19 we get back so we won't miss or leave out anything 20 that you may ask us.
21 In addition, each of you should have found 22 a feedback form on your chairs. If you did not get 23 one, please go back to the table there and we'll 24 provide you one for this meeting. We would appreciate 25
7 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 you filling it out because we do value your comments 1
and we appreciate hearing from you as it helps us 2
improve our processes. Also, if you have any 3
questions to which you would like formal response, 4
please include them on the forms.
5 There should be a list also that you may 6
want to put your name and address and everything on so 7
we can make sure that we can call you in some type of 8
order when we end this session.
9 We also have handouts in the back of the 10 room. We have a limited supply, so if you want to 11 know a little bit more about the NRC, we have them at 12 the back of the room on the table there.
13 This pretty much concludes our 14 administrative portion of the meeting but, before I 15 continue with the NRC's responsibilities and the main 16
- agenda, I
want to introduce the other NRC 17 representatives here tonight with me.
18 To my right, Mr. Clyde Osterholtz. He 19 works for me as the NRC Senior Resident Inspector at 20 the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. He's been 21 assigned to the site for approximately two years.
22 Running the slides, Mr. Mark Sitek. He's 23 also a resident inspector here at the site, and he's 24 been assigned at the San Onofre Station here for 25
8 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 approximately one year.
1 In the audience, we have Mr. Art Howell, 2
who is the Director for the Division of Reactor 3
Projects in Region IV office in Arlington, Texas. Mr.
4 Howell has oversight responsibility of the project 5
branches that oversees the inspection program at all 6
the nuclear reactor facilities in Region IV.
7 Also in the audience we have Mr. Herb 8
Berkow, Project Director, Division of Licensing 9
Project Management, Office of Nuclear Reactor 10 Regulation in Rockville, Maryland; Mr. Stephen Dembek, 11 Chief, Project Directorate IV, Division of Licensing 12 Project Management, Office of Nuclear Reactor 13 Regulation in Rockville, Maryland; Mr. Vic Dricks, 14 Public Affairs Officer for the Region IV office in 15 Arlington, Texas. And at the rear, we have Mrs.
16 Stefani Neidholdt, the Site Secretary, for the 17 resident staff at the San Onofre Nuclear Generating 18 Station. Ms. Neidholdt will be calling each person 19 that has signed up on the list there in the back in 20 order to add into this presentation.
21 Mr. Dwight Nunn is the Southern California 22 Edison's official spokesman here tonight. Mr. Nunn is 23 the Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services 24 for the Southern California Edison Company San Onofre 25
9 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Generating Station.
1 Mr. Nunn, would you please introduce your 2
staff.
3 MR. NUNN: Also on the San Onofre team 4
here with me tonight is Ray Waldo, who's the Station 5
Manager at San Onofre. And Joe Wambold, who's the 6
Vice President of Generation. We're all co-equals in 7
running San Onofre.
8 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Nunn. Now I 9
would like to acknowledge any state and local 10 officials who are here tonight. I have a list. I'll 11 call -- as I call your name, would you please stand.
12 Mr.
Brian
- Perry, Chairman, 13 Interjurisdictional Planning Committee at San Juan 14 Capistrano Emergency Planning Office. Thank you, sir.
15 Mr. Jim Russell, Emergency Planning 16 Office, City of San Clemente.
17 Mr. Len Hayes, Orange County Emergency 18 Management. Thank you, sir.
19 Don Monahan, California State Parks and 20 Recreation.
21 Mr.
Pete
- Lawrence, Oceanside Fire 22 Department. Thank you, sir.
23 Jan Sener, Chairperson, Public Information 24 Officer, SONGS Emergency Center.
25
10 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I'm not sure if Mr. Joe Cramer's here yet.
1 When he shows up, Mr. Joe Cramer, he's with United 2
States Marine Corps, Camp Pendleton. His role is he 3
oversees United States Marine Corps, Camp Pendleton 4
involvement in e-planning.
5 At the end of this meeting, I along with 6
the other NRC representatives will be available to 7
meet with you and any members of the press who wish to 8
speak with us.
9 Before I discuss our assessment results, 10 I want to briefly discuss the NRC's role.
11 The mission of the Nuclear Regulatory 12 Commission is to protect the public health and safety, 13 and the environment from the effects of radiation from 14 nuclear reactors, materials, and waste facilities. We 15 carry out this mission by policy formulation, 16 rulemaking, and oversight. To make sure that we 17 effectively meet our mission, we have established four 18 performance goals. I want to highlight two of those 19 goals.
20 First, as you can see, our primary goal is 21 to maintain safety and protect the environment. This 22 goal is foremost in everything we do.
23 Second, as public servants, we also want 24 to enhance public confidence. We believe that this 25
11 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 goal is best achieved by making ourselves available to 1
discuss relevant issues with the local community.
2 That's why we are here this afternoon -- evening.
3 The other goals, as you can see, are 4
improve efficiency, effectiveness, and our processes 5
for decision-making, and also to reduce unnecessary 6
regulatory burden.
7 Specifically, we are here tonight to talk 8
to you about San Onofre Generating Station's safety 9
performance. Formally, this is a meeting between 10 Southern Edison and the NRC to discuss the plant's 11 safety performance with public observation. In 12 addition, the presentation is intended to increase 13 public understanding of the Nuclear Regulatory 14 Commission and it is, therefore, being directed to the 15 public.
16 Our presentation tonight is divided up 17 into four sections. First, we want to provide an 18 overview of the NRC's role in the regulatory oversight 19 process.
20 Second, we will describe our inspection 21 findings and how they factor into our assessment using 22 the regulatory oversight process. At that point, Mr.
23 Nunn will have the opportunity to comment on the 24 assessment.
25
12 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 After Mr. Nunn's comments, we have a short 1
presentation on areas we feel may be of some interest 2
to you. These areas required additional NRC attention 3
during the past year. Then we will open up the 4
meeting to questions and answers.
5 With that, I will proceed into the 6
presentation.
7 During the assessment period, the NRC 8
provided approximately 12,920 hours0.0106 days <br />0.256 hours <br />0.00152 weeks <br />3.5006e-4 months <br /> of independent 9
regulatory oversight of the activities at the San 10 Onofre Generating Station. This came from three 11 different sections of the NRC: Our headquarters 12 office of the Nuclear Reactor Regulation, the NRC 13 Region IV office, and the resident inspectors.
14 The Office of the Nuclear Reactor 15 Regulation used 6,712 hours0.00824 days <br />0.198 hours <br />0.00118 weeks <br />2.70916e-4 months <br /> on reviewing license 16 change requests and supporting regional inspection 17 efforts for the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station.
18 The license, which includes technical specifications, 19 controls the terms of plant operation and assures that 20 the plant will be operated safely.
21 The two resident inspectors stationed at 22 the plant conduct various inspections required by the 23 Regulatory Oversight process and monitor critical 24 activities on a daily basis. By stationing residents 25
13 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 at the plant, they are available if needed for prompt 1
emergency response. During the recent assessment 2
period, the resident inspectors provided approximately 3
2,928 hours0.0107 days <br />0.258 hours <br />0.00153 weeks <br />3.53104e-4 months <br /> of oversight.
4 As part of our routine and baseline 5
inspection program, we also send technical specialists 6
or, in some cases, we send teams of technical 7
specialists to the site to perform reviews in their 8
areas of expertise (such as radiation protection, 9
emergency preparedness, fire protection, and 10 engineering inspections). The regional technical 11 specialists provided approximately 3,280 hours0.00324 days <br />0.0778 hours <br />4.62963e-4 weeks <br />1.0654e-4 months <br /> of 12 oversight. These efforts included infrequently 13 performed baseline inspections and emergent efforts.
14 And when I say "infrequently," it's like when a fire 15 protection inspection is performed or the engineering 16 inspection that's conducted.
17 All of this inspection effort is part of 18 the NRC's comprehensive reactor oversight program.
19 The program is designed to ensure that NRC's overall 20 safety mission is accomplished at nuclear reactors.
21 The program is divided into three strategic 22 performance areas: Reactor safety, radiation safety, 23 and plant security.
24 To measure plant performance in these 25
14 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 three broad strategic performance areas, the oversight 1
program focuses on seven specific "Cornerstones" which 2
support the safety of plant operations in three broad 3
strategic areas:
4 Here we have the cornerstones. I'll just 5
go over the seven cornerstones. They're not listed in 6
the slide here, but they're initiating events, 7
mitigating systems, occupational radiation safety, 8
physical protection, barrier integrity, emergency 9
preparedness, and public radiation safety.
10 Throughout the assessment period -- cycle 11
-- various inspections are conducted to evaluate the 12 licensee's performance in each of these strategic 13 performance areas. Congress receives reports on the 14 plant's performance in these strategic areas.
15 We have established regulations and 16 license requirements that set the safety standards for 17 reactor safety, radiation safety, and plant security.
18 Our oversight program is based on a logical framework 19 that focuses on risk-significant plant systems and 20 activities. The program provides assurance that the 21 plants are operating safely by ensuring that they are 22 complying with the regulations. This is done through 23 inspections and monitoring objective indicators of 24 performance. The results of the assessment program 25
15 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 will then trigger regulatory actions.
1 The process is illustrated in the flow 2
chart you see on the slide. Our inspection results 3
and performance indicator results, which are focused 4
on safety areas, are used to assess safety performance 5
and determine necessary regulatory actions.
6 Our baseline inspection program is 7
conducted at all plants and provides most of the 8
inspection results. Through the baseline inspection 9
program, we gather objective evidence of plant safety 10 in every strategic performance area. The program 11 focuses on safety-significant, components, activities, 12 and events. The inspection results can have varied 13 safety significance which may reach one of our 14 significant thresholds. When this occurs, we use the 15 action matrix to determine the appropriate regulatory 16 response. And our policy -- we didn't have a place to 17 put the poster. It's at the back back there, but I'd 18 be glad to discuss the action matrix with you, any 19 interested individuals, at the end of this meeting.
20 There's nowhere really to post it up here, so I 21 apologize for that.
22 The results of our inspections are 23 documented in quarterly inspection reports. These 24 reports describe the various inspections performed by 25
16 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the resident inspectors and the regional-based 1
technical specialists. When a violation of NRC 2
regulation is identified, the violation or finding is 3
documented in the section of the report describing the 4
inspection. These inspection reports are publicly 5
accessible. The website is listed on the slide.
6 The NRC reviews events for significance.
7 Significant events, significant inspection findings, 8
and safety performance declines have the potential to 9
trigger significant thresholds. When this occurs, the 10 NRC responds with event follow-up or supplemental 11 inspections. The goal of these additional inspections 12 is to determine the cause of the performance decline 13 and to ensure that effective corrective actions have 14 been taken. Our program provides for a gradual 15 increase in NRC's response as safety significance 16 increases.
17 Significant events, significant findings, 18 and safety performance declines are given a color code 19 based on their safety significance. For example, 20 Green issues have very low safety significance and do 21 not require further NRC follow-up. We speak of them 22 as being within the licensee's control bond from the 23 matrix -- action matrix that I spoke about to you 24 earlier. It's back on the back wall. On the other 25
17 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 hand, Red issues denote a high safety significance and 1
receive the most significant NRC response. As the 2
safety significance increases, the regulatory response 3
increases.
4 Each licensee monitors the performance of 5
their plants and provides performance indicators to 6
the NRC. Specific plant performance data is required 7
by the NRC to construct the required performance 8
indicators. The licensee provides performance 9
indicator information to the NRC once a quarter. This 10 allows us to monitor plant performance. We also 11 verify that the data is accurate by sampling data used 12 by the licensee to report this information.
13 Performance indicator results and other 14 assessment information are available on the websites 15 that you see there.
16 As an example of a performance indicator, 17 the reactor safety area is the number of unplanned 18 scrams (or number of unplanned reactor trips or rapid 19 shutdowns) per 7000 critical hours of operation, where 20 "critical" is used in the sense of normal operation of 21 the reactor. Similar to inspection findings, you can 22 see that the performance criteria have been developed 23 for each safety significance level, and you can see 24 the thresholds to the right over there -- to your 25
18 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 right, my left. In this example, licensee performance 1
is green, or what we call the licensee response band.
2 To summarize, we review licensee safety 3
performance by monitoring the performance indicators 4
and evaluating inspection findings. Depending on 5
these results, we have preplanned agency actions. We 6
have two posters that include more detail about our 7
plan for real-time regulatory response to declining 8
safety performance. Every six months, we write a 9
safety performance assessment letter and, annually, we 10 hold public meetings like this to discuss the results 11 with the public. As discussed earlier, safety 12 performance information for each site is available on 13 the NRC public web.
14 The next few slides provide the results of 15 our assessment of the San Onofre Generating Station's 16 safety performance.
17 This slide is basically plant-specific 18 data. As you can see, the name of the plant, San 19 Onofre Generating Stations; the operator, Southern 20 Edison; number of units, two operating units; reactor 21 type and vendor, which is a pressurized water 22 reactor/combustion engineering. Just basic data 23 there.
24 Next slide, please.
25
19 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 In 2002, the NRC inspected several major 1
activities performed by the licensee at the San Onofre 2
Generating Station. These included mandated reactor 3
vessel head inspections and security-related 4
activities that were implemented to enhance the 5
licensee's security program.
6 MR. HOWELL: Claude, I just want to point 7
out that these activities occurred at -- at all the 8
plants nationwide, not because of just one specific 9
reason or problem at San Onofre.
10 MR. JOHNSON: That's true. This was --
11 this -- Mr. Howell's comments are true. This was done 12 at every plant in the nation. This was not just San 13 Onofre. This was -- there were bulletins --
14 THE REPORTER: I can't pick him up over 15 here. I'm not able to pick him up unless he's on a 16 microphone.
17 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. We'll take -- we'll 18 do that next time. Okay. Thank you.
19 All of the findings identified by the NRC 20 and licensee during the inspection cycle were of very 21 low safety significance. A number of -- a number of 22 these findings involved human performance issues --
23 errors. The licensee has identified the need to 24 improve in this area and has implemented programs to 25
20 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 address this issue.
1 Overall, San Onofre Nuclear Generating 2
Station operated in a manner that preserved public 3
health and safety and fully met all cornerstone 4
objectives. Plant performance for the most recent 5
quarter, as well as for the first three quarters of 6
the assessment cycle, was within the Licensee Response 7
Column of the NRC's Action Matrix, based on all 8
inspection findings being classified as having very 9
low safety significance (Green) and all performance 10 indicators indicating performance at a level requiring 11 no additional NRC oversight.
12 However, a supplemental inspection will be 13 performed as a result of the Unit 2 reactor trip which 14 occurred in February of this year, and which caused 15 Unit 2 to exceed its performance indicator threshold 16 for the number of reactor trips per 7000 critical 17 hours1.967593e-4 days <br />0.00472 hours <br />2.810847e-5 weeks <br />6.4685e-6 months <br />. And if need be, we'll go a little bit more in 18 detail later on in questions. But it was several 19 trips, and I'll just kind of briefly describe them.
20 Early in the year, June 30th, they had a 21 steam bypass control system, which was a reactor trip; 22 feed water reg. valve, which -- due to a steam --
23 water level bad circuit cord; and also a pressurized 24 spray valve that was stuck open. They had some 25
21 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 problems there.
1 I want to make it clear that, note, this 2
event -- the last reactor trip -- was -- this event 3
occurred outside of the 2002 assessment period and 4
will be evaluated as part of the 2003 assessment 5
period. The focus of this supplemental inspection 6
will be to review the root causes and the extent of 7
condition and the corrective action for this 8
performance indicator exceeding the Green to White 9
threshold.
10 This slide displays the performance 11 summary that is posted in the public web for the most 12 significant inspection findings. As you can see, all 13 the inspection findings are pretty much Green. You 14 see no White or Red issues there. And as you can see, 15 the licensee remained within the licensee response 16 band throughout the fourth quarter.
17 This slide, like the previous one, 18 displays the performance summary that is posted in the 19 public website for performance indicators. And, as 20 you can see, all the performance indicators are Green.
21 We reviewed the licensee's performance 22 indicator data. Performance indicators in the three 23 strategic areas -- reactor safety, radiation safety, 24 and plant security -- indicated that the licensee had 25
22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 not exceeded any performance thresholds.
1 Our overall assessment conclusion is that 2
San Onofre -- Southern California Edison effectively 3
managed the facility in all three areas. The San 4
Onofre Nuclear Generating Station was operated in a 5
manner that protected the health and safety of the 6
public. Based on the 2002 results, the NRC does not 7
need to perform additional inspections beyond the 8
baseline inspection program. However, as I previously 9
stated, the NRC will conduct a supplemental inspection 10 because of Unit 2 crossing the Green to White 11 threshold for exceeding the number of reactor trips 12 per 7000 critical hours during the first quarter of 13 2003.
14 Now I would like to give Mr. Nunn, the 15 Vice President of Southern California Edison Company, 16 an opportunity to comment on the assessment. And 17 following Mr. Nunn's comments, I will address the 18 additional focus areas that I had mentioned earlier.
19 Mr. Nunn.
20 MR. NUNN: Thank you for that summary. I 21 hope that gives everyone a great deal of confidence in 22 the thoroughness and depth of the NRC's oversight of 23 San Onofre.
24 We pride ourself in safely operating the 25
23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 plant. Crossing the threshold due to the latest trip 1
on the Unit 2 causes us to reevaluate some of our 2
programs and reducing the errors in our -- human 3
errors in the operation of the plant.
4 They're at a relatively low level. All 5
the -- okay. I thought maybe we're not recording or 6
something.
7 I lost my train of thought. The -- all of 8
the -- the issues that have been raised as a result of 9
your oversight and our own oversight are being 10 addressed, and we welcome your assessing our 11 corrective action program in that regard.
12 Thank you.
13 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Nunn. As I 14 had indicated earlier, at this time I would like to 15 take a few minutes to discuss some areas that required 16 additional NRC resources during this assessment cycle.
17 When conditions change or occur that have the 18 potential to impact public health and safety, the NRC 19 responds by providing additional oversight as needed.
20 Should the conditions warrant, we will even mandate 21 licensee actions to assure the public's safety and 22 implement our emergency plans.
23 During this assessment cycle, two areas 24 required ongoing attention. First was the degradation 25
24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of the Davis-Besse reactor vessel head. And the 1
second was -- the second concern was the security at 2
nuclear power plants following the tragic terrorist 3
attacks of 9/11.
4 And if you have any questions that you 5
would like to ask on the Davis-Besse event, Mr. Art 6
Howell was definitely involved in reviewing that 7
particular issue, so he's here today. If you really 8
want to know some answers and what they did, he can 9
definitely shed some light on that at the end of this 10 presentation.
11 During the performance of the refueling 12 activities at the Davis-Besse plant, located in Ohio, 13 significant reactor vessel head degradation was 14 identified. This degradation was caused by boric acid 15 corrosion, which occurred following the leak of a 16 control rod drive nozzle. The potential for this type 17 of problem was recognized in the early 1990s. This 18 event resulted in the NRC issuing a number of NRC 19 Bulletins describing the inspection activities 20 necessary to assure that other reactor vessel heads 21 were not degraded. The NRC learned more from further 22 evaluations and inspections based upon these 23 bulletins. This resulted in the issuance of an order 24 to mandate inspection requirements related to Reactor 25
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Pressure Vessel Heads at Pressurized Water Reactors.
1 At the San Onofre Nuclear Generating 2
Station, that inspection was performed during the last 3
refueling outage for each unit. For Unit 2, that 4
inspection was performed June of 2002, and for Unit 3 5
that inspection was performed in January 2003. Both 6
inspections were monitored by the NRC specialists.
7 Overall, no significant reactor vessel 8
head degradation was identified at the San Onofre 9
Nuclear Generating Station.
10 Additional NRC and industry actions are 11 pending in response to the degradation of the Davis-12 Besse reactor vessel head.
13 Since September 11th, 2001, the NRC has 14 undertaken changes to enhance the already substantial 15 security at our nation's nuclear power plants. Some 16 of these changes have been made via orders to nuclear 17 facilities.
18 The NRC has expanded involvement and 19 enhanced liaisons with the FBI and other intelligence 20 and law enforcement agencies.
21 The NRC has established ongoing dialogue 22 through frequent communications with the Office of 23 Homeland Security, the Department of Defense, the 24 Federal Aviation Administration, the Federal Emergency 25
26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Management Agency, and others. For example, the NRC 1
has worked with FAA to prohibit planes from circling 2
or loitering above nuclear power plants.
3 The NRC has always worked in concert with 4
the licensee, state and local officials, and continues 5
to do so today.
Through this cooperation, 6
enhancements of security at NRC-licensed facilities 7
are being continually implemented.
8 The NRC established the Office of Nuclear 9
Security and Incident Response in April 2002 to 10 consolidate incident response and security 11 responsibilities and resources. This improves 12 communication and coordination with both internal and 13 external organizations. The creation of NSIR 14 streamlines decision-making and improves the 15 timeliness and consistency of information. It also 16 provides a more visible point of contact and effective 17 counterpart of the Office of Homeland Security, as 18 well as other federal agencies.
19 The NRC has also developed a new Threat 20 Advisory and Protective Measures System to communicate 21 and respond to threats affecting NRC licensees and NRC 22 facilities. This is in response to the Homeland 23 Security Presidential Directive.
The system 24 corresponds to the color-coded Homeland Security 25
27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Advisory System which provides a consistent national 1
framework for allowing Government officials to 2
communicate the nature and degree of terrorist 3
threats. The NRC system identifies specific actions 4
to be taken by NRC licensees for each threat level to 5
counter projected terrorist threats.
6 Currently, the NRC has underway a
7 comprehensive top-to-bottom review of agency's entire 8
safeguards and security programs, regulations, and 9
procedures. The review is ongoing and has resulted in 10 numerous security improvements.
11 The NRC has issued orders which mandate 12 Interim Compensation Measures to increase the level of 13 security at nuclear facilities. The specific actions 14 are sensitive but generally include requirements for 15 increased patrols, augmentation of the number and 16 capabilities of security guards, additional security 17 posts, installation of additional physical barriers, 18 vehicle checks at greater distances from the plant, 19 enhanced coordination with law enforcement and 20 military authorities, and more restrictive site access 21 controls for personnel.
22 In addition, the NRC has pending orders on 23 fatigue and guard training, and has initiated a pilot 24 of the force-on-force exercise.
25
28 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Resident inspectors and security 1
specialists have independently verified that the 2
appropriate measures were taken at each site to meet 3
the Interim Compensatory Measures.
4 Additionally, the industry has undertaken 5
a number of initiatives which have required licensing 6
reviews by the NRC's office of Nuclear Reactor 7
Regulation. For example, over the past few years, a 8
number of plants have taken advantage of advancements 9
in technology to request amendments to their operating 10 licenses to slightly increase the power output of the 11 plants. The NRC has approved more than 80 12 applications to increase reactor power thus far, and 13 approximately 51 applications are expected over the 14 next five years.
15 License renewal is a recent initiative, 16 with the first application submitted in 1998 and 17 approved in February 2000. Currently, 12 applications 18 are under review.
19 This pretty much concludes our 20 presentation.
21 We would like to adjourn for a short break 22 and we will begin the question-and-answer portion of 23 the presentation. I am going to leave the contact 24 numbers on the board, so any information that you want 25
29 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 to write down let us know and we will get that 1
information to you. If you would like to use our 2
question-and-answer form on the registration table to 3
formally capture your question, please feel free to do 4
so. Handouts, as I stated, are at the back of the 5
room. Also, as a reminder, we use the sign-up sheet 6
to call on these -- on different folks who wish to 7
make a statement. So just make sure you have your 8
microphone. We want to make sure that our court 9
reporter gathers any information. So if it's a 10 question that you ask that we can properly address it 11 and it's recorded, we'd appreciate that.
12 We'll -- let's take about a ten-minute 13 break and assemble back -- five-minute break and we'll 14 assemble back in here. Thank you. We have coffee 15 back in the back.
16 (Recess from 7:37 p.m., until 7:47 p.m.)
17 MR. JOHNSON: The list is fairly long.
18 I'd like to limit it to at least three minutes. And 19 Stefani has the list. She'll call you out in that 20 order as you sign the list.
21 MS. NEIDHOLDT: As I understand it, first 22 we have -- okay. He wants me to go to a mike. The 23 officials that Mr. Johnson pointed out to you earlier 24 wanted to take an opportunity to say hello. So Brian 25
30 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Perry.
1 MR. PERRY: Good evening. My name is 2
Brian Perry. I'm the City of San Juan Capistrano 3
representative to SONGS the SONGS 4
Interjurisdictional Planning Committee. And I'm the 5
interim chair of the IPC.
6 My comments tonight, I wanted to make 7
principally for the general public, to make them aware 8
that there is a
strong off-site organization 9
associated with SONGS known as the Interjurisdictional 10 Planning Committee which both support SONGS and is 11 supported by SONGS.
12 The Federal Emergency Management Agency 13 requires that exercises are carried out to demonstrate 14 the off-site preparedness to respond to an incident at 15 SONGS. These exercises have been carried out since 16 SONGS inception.
17 And the most recent evaluated exercise was 18 November the 6th, 2002. This exercise was completed 19 successfully and we're currently preparing for another 20 federal-evaluated exercise October the 22nd, 2003.
21 The IPC, for those who don't know, is a 22 collaboration of off-site jurisdictions and agencies, 23 and many of those representatives are here tonight.
24 The IPC meets monthly and the mission statement of the 25
31 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 IPC, the goal of the IPC, is to promote nuclear power 1
preparedness through agency coordination and 2
integration of emergency plans.
3 There are eight primary members of the 4
IPC: The three cities of San Juan Capistrano, San 5
Clemente, and Dana Point, the two counties, San Diego 6
County and Orange County, California State Parks, the 7
United States Marine Corps, Camp Pendleton, and 8
Southern California Edison.
9 Those eight primary members don't work 10 alone. There are also six associate IPC members: The 11 American Red Cross, the California Highway Patrol, 12 Capistrano Unified School District, Mission Hospital, 13 Orange County Fire Authority, and the Oceanside Fire 14 Department.
15 I've been involved with the SONGS program 16 at the Emergency Center and the IPC for close to 20 17 years. It's been a positive experience for me, with 18 both the cooperation of SONGS and all the off-site 19 agencies' staff.
20 In addition to the main monthly IPC 21 meetings that we hold, there are a number of 22 subcommittees which meet to address and improve issues 23 such as communications, public information, off-site 24 dose assessment, emergency operations facility, 25
32 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Emergency Alert System, private schools, reception 1
centers, evacuation, interjurisdictional policies, 2
training, and exercise design.
3 I'm pleased to note for all the residents 4
within the PUC that the NRC has concluded that for the 5
reporting period, SONGS has operated in a manner that 6
preserved public health and safety and fully met all 7
cornerstone objectives.
8 The IPC exists to protect the health and 9
safety of the public.
10 Thank you.
11 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Jim Russell. Jim Russell.
12 MR. RUSSELL: I haven't a lot to add to 13 what Brian covered. He covered about all of it. I 14 have been asked to stand in and represent the State 15 Office of Emergency Services, if any of you have 16 questions about KI and the distribution program that 17 we've got going on within the EPZ right now. So I'll 18 be around later. If you want to talk to me 19 individually, I'd be glad to do that.
20 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Len Hayes.
21 MR. HAYES: Well, really what is there 22 left to say after those two distinguished gentlemen?
23 I represent the County of Orange. I'm an employee of 24 the Orange County Sheriff's Department. The emergency 25
33 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 management function is embedded in the Sheriff's 1
Department in Orange County.
2 I've had the pleasure of working with 3
SONGS during my active duty career in the United 4
States Marine Corps, and I continue to enjoy a very 5
positive relationship with SONGS now as a member of 6
the Interjurisdictional Planning Commission. I could 7
perhaps answer any questions from the County of Orange 8
perspective.
9 But I want to assure you that we take 10 these SONGS exercises very, very seriously. We've 11 just been successful in our last one, as Brian 12 mentioned, and we're now pointing towards a success on 13 the next one. Thank you very much.
14 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Don Monahan.
15 MR. MONAHAN: Thank you very much. My 16 comments are primarily to the members of the NRC here.
17 To let you know the relationship that was formed 18 between employees of the California State Park System 19 and Southern California Edison, we have developed an 20 outstanding relationship with these folks over many 21 years. We've worked in concert on a variety of 22 issues, whether it's traffic management, park visitor 23
- safety, employee safety at the
- plant, the 24 decommissioning that's going on currently, resource 25
34 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 management, things of that nature. We are in constant 1
communication with folks regarding security measures 2
as a result of 9/11. And we look forward to in the 3
future continuing to develop this relationship between 4
the California State Parks and the employees of 5
Edison.
6 Thank you.
7 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Pete Lawrence.
8 MR. LAWRENCE: Good evening, members of 9
the Commission, Jurisdictional representatives, and 10 members of the public. My name is Peter Lawrence and 11 I'm representing the Oceanside Fire Department. While 12 the City of Oceanside is outside of the ten-mile 13 emergency planning zone, the City's been involved in 14 San Onofre-related response activities and planning 15 activities since the early 1980s. We are contracted 16 by the County of San Diego to provide the off-site 17 radiological monitoring teams. And I've been directly 18 involved with San Onofre planning since the mid-1980s, 19 including a couple-year stint as the Orange County 20 Chief Nuclear Planner.
21 The City takes the process of San Onofre 22 response and planning very seriously. We provide off-23 site radiological monitoring teams. We provide 24 assistance in the off-site dose assessment center.
25
35 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 The City is very appreciative of the work that is done 1
by Southern California Edison and the employees at San 2
Onofre and the cooperation and coordination that 3
occurs in the emergency planning field. Having been 4
involved in emergency management and the management of 5
large-scale fires throughout the United States for 6
many years, it is second to none in terms of the 7
ability to coordinate and communicate.
8 On the issue of communications, there has 9
been significant concern lately -- and the new 10 buzzword in emergency planning seems to be 11
" i n t e r o p e r a bility" or "communications 12 interoperability." And I -- one of my roles within 13 the City is that I'm the City's communications 14 officer. I manage training, safety, communications, 15 and the nuclear power coordination.
16 As such, as the communications officer, 17 I'm responsible for ensuring that our entity is able 18 to communicate with all of the personnel, all of the 19 agencies, all of the organizations that would be 20 involved in any emergency that might affect the 21 citizens of the City of Oceanside or our 22 responsibilities, of which San Onofre, because of 23 contract requirements, becomes one of our 24 responsibilities.
25
36 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 As such, I've spent a tremendous amount of 1
time studying the communications issue, and I can 2
safely say that the ability of the off-site response 3
agencies to communicate is very robust, it is probably 4
the most interoperable system that we operate under in 5
-- in the fire service. We have multiple frequency 6
bands. We have multiple repeater sites. And we have 7
multiple mechanisms of getting information in and 8
among the -- the entities, both to the radiological 9
monitoring teams as well as the -- the off-site 10 responders, from law enforcement to public works, to 11 bus drivers, and on down the line.
12 So the -- the summary, I guess you could 13 say, is that the City has been very supportive of the 14 role that we've provided to San Onofre. We've been 15 very appreciative of the support that has been 16 received in turn from San Onofre. That must be 17 somebody moving their car. Actually, the chef is 18 moving everyone's car. And that the -- the level of 19 planning and the level of coordination is very 20 extensive, probably the best of any of the entities 21 that we deal with, both from a fire emergency 22 management standpoint and it is no -- by no means --
23 we would not expect anything other than the results 24 that the NRC came up with, that there is a full 25
37 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 support of protection of the public based on the 1
emergency response activities.
2 So thank you very much.
3 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Did Mr. Cramer from 4
Pendleton come? There he is.
5 MR. CRAMER: Hi. Good evening, everyone.
6 My name is Joe Cramer. I am the Disaster Preparedness 7
Coordinator for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton.
8 And of course we have a very close relationship with 9
the planning with SONGS since we are literally -- they 10 sit right on our property. We also share a very 11 unique security concern and we tie in very well with 12 the relationship, sharing information, and making sure 13 that, from a security perspective, we do everything we 14 can to -- to support the effort there at SONGS.
15 In fact, I was late tonight because I was 16 actually at a town hall meeting on Camp Pendleton 17 where we were actually distributing KI to our 18 residents there at Camp Pendleton and answering their 19 questions, and that's why I was running a little late 20 tonight.
21 And with that, I thank you very much.
22 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Jan Sener.
23 MS. SENER: Thank you. I've had a unique 24 experience with SONGS because, actually, I started my 25
38 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 career with San Clemente Police Department. And at 1
that time, we were the responding agency for San 2
Onofre. And so I've had the pleasure and the 3
privilege of really working with SONGS for probably 4
about -- oh, years.
5 And I think the previous speakers have 6
really illustrated the professionalism that is a part 7
of this Interjurisdictional group. My role, as the PI 8
Chairperson -- actually, I'm with Orange County 9
Sheriff's Department. I'm the Director of Crime 10 Prevention -- but in this capacity, I am the PIO 11 Chairperson. And I'm kind of the mother hen because 12 I facilitate what happens at our media center, I help 13 all of our professionals to know that it's going to be 14 okay.
15 One of the other tributes that I can 16 really give to SONGS is the fact that we, the 17 information officers that are all at the media center, 18 will many times have suggestions on how things could 19 maybe be run a little better, a little more 20 efficiently as we're dealing with the mock media. And 21 they listen to us. They have taken our suggestions 22 and they've helped this to be an even greater 23 professional experience and helped us all to do a 24 better job. It's been very much of a pleasure to work 25
39 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 with these people, as you have heard the many 1
disciplines that are represented throughout this group 2
of professionals, and it's a pleasure and I know we'll 3
continue to do great things for them and they provide 4
us the training and the skills to make good things 5
happen.
6 Thank you.
7 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. One last 8
chance to move your cars. Okay. I have a list of 9
people who wanted to either speak or had a question.
10 Do I have everybody's name that wants to speak or ask 11 a question? Okay.
12 Three minutes and I'll let you know when 13 that's up. Russell Hoffman is our first speaker.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much. I have 15 a list of 25 simple ways a small band of terrorists 16 could destroy a nuclear power plant. I don't think in 17 three minutes I can go over all 25. So you'll have to 18 guess what the missing ones are going to be.
19 The number one way is, of course, hijack 20 a commercial airliner and, if one isn't enough, hijack 21 two, and if two aren't enough, hijack four.
22 Another way, you can just rent a corporate 23 jet so there's no pesky passengers to get in your way.
24 And you can also bring a boat to bomb or 25
40 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 a depth-carrying boat could go up to the outlet tubes.
1 You can steal a tank. Many of you are 2
probably long-time residents here and know that about 3
six or eight years ago, somebody did that. And if it 4
had decided to come up the coast, they don't know how 5
they would have stopped it. There's some people here 6
who might be able to stop it now if they are paying 7
attention.
8
.50-caliber machine gun bullets can go 9
right through the control room. They can go right 10 through most of the pipes that are coming out of the 11 containment room.
12 Until recently, the NRC posted the GPS 13 locations of the site to six decimal places, which is 14 maybe two feet across or something. So all you need 15 to do is find that document.
16 You can throw a short-circuiting bomb or 17 a grenade in the switch yard. That's something with 18 a lot of wires. And they -- instead of exploding, it 19 just spreads the wires out. Could easily cut off the 20 power.
21 Somebody told me, one of your employees, 22 that the -- two of the generators are located right 23 next to each other with just a cement -- a cinder 24 block wall between them. So one Cessna 172 could take 25
41 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 out both of those generators, and another one could 1
take out the other set; you've got all four gone, and 2
you need those generators.
3 Somebody working inside the plant, not a 4
friend of mine, but somebody else, might switch pages 5
in the control room operating manuals. Are you sure 6
those are all in proper order and all of the 7
information in them is right?
8 Obviously, you can get insiders to do 9
things.
10 Derail trains off the tracks. Now, I did 11 get a letter from the NRC saying that the plant is far 12 enough from the tracks that there is no way that two 13 trains going towards each other with the engines in 14 the rear and the cars buckling up, there's no way they 15 could fall over on the track and there's nothing --
16 there's no loads, I guess, that could be carried that 17 might explode something that would go onto the control 18 room or anything like that. But I don't believe it.
19 So, anyway, that's number ten.
20 Number 11, derail a chemical train nearby 21 or a truck on the highway. They bring cyanide down to 22 the power -- the recycling -- the water recycling 23 plants use cyanide or arsenic, I guess it is, to 24 reduce the smell. That could cause a problem.
25
42 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 You could lob mortars at the plant from 1
San Onofre State Beach.
2 Crop duster airplanes filled with gasoline 3
or something else to create sort of a napalm-type 4
explosion, take out the whole place.
5 You could rent a piece of construction 6
equipment, like a Caterpillar.
7 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: That's three minutes. We 9
got to number 14. You'll just have to guess what the 10 others are.
11 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. Sharon 12 Hoffman.
13 MS. HOFFMAN: My name is Sharon Hoffman.
14 And I'm a resident of Carlsbad. And if Oceanside is 15 outside of the evacuation area, Carlsbad is certainly 16 outside of the evacuation area. I am here to tell you 17 that the residents of Carlsbad are not going to think 18 of staying home if there is an accident at San Onofre, 19 nor are the residents of San Diego, Los Angeles, the 20 rest of Orange County. And anybody who has driven 21 these roads on a normal weekday morning knows that the 22 idea that we could evacuate this area is ridiculous.
23 So what I would like to know is what is the evacuation 24 plan that deals with the realities of the number of 25
43 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 people that live in the vicinity of this plant that 1
would try to leave and with the road and traffic 2
conditions that we have here?
3 That's the first thing I'd like to know.
4 The second thing I'd like to know is if 5
the primary purpose of the NRC is to maintain public 6
safety and to protect the environment, who is in 7
charge of looking at the regulations that the NRC has 8
and saying that they do those things? Because a lot 9
of people a lot more knowledgeable about the subject 10 than I do not believe that they do those things, and 11 nor do I.
12 So I would like to know who is in charge 13 of that. Who oversees the overseers?
14 The next question I have is findings and 15 assessments were presented this evening. A rather big 16 deal was made about the fact that this is a public 17 forum, that these are being presented in public, and 18 I would like to know to what extent Southern 19 California Edison sees that information prior to this 20 public meeting. If there was something to say that 21 wasn't Green, would that have been discussed prior to 22 this meeting? And what are the criteria of what the 23 different levels are?
24 I've been to several of these meetings.
25
44 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I've never seen a finding that wasn't Green. Again, 1
I question whether those regulations are regulating 2
anything.
3 And, finally, when we talk about the 4
protection and the security of the plant, there is a 5
very great tendency to talk about the reactors 6
themselves. And there are lots of other parts of the 7
plant that are vulnerable -- the spent fuel pools, the 8
generators, the control room. To what extent are 9
those protected, and to what extent can the plant 10 continue to function, say if it has no outside 11 electricity? And the answer is it cannot.
12 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.
13 MR. JOHNSON: Do we want to address --
14 yes. We'd like to address those now.
15 MR. HOWELL: Yes. Good evening. My name 16 is Art Howell. I think I got all the questions. I 17 might need a little help with all the questions. I 18 tried to write those down.
19 To answer I believe your second-to-the-20 last question, to what extent are there criteria for 21 the various findings, we tried to cover those briefly.
22 We'd be more than happy to discuss those further 23 following this meeting. But just to give you some 24 insight into that, they are defined and there's 25
45 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 various processes. They're all publicly available.
1 And we can help you -- show you where those are so 2
that -- so you can see those for yourself.
3 Also, we didn't show it, but we have a 4
summary that provides a summary of the various 5
findings for all the Region IV plants. And to give 6
you some idea, we have 21 reactor units in our region.
7 Thirteen plants are in the Green band and we have five 8
in the -- which is the licensee control band. That 9
means all their findings and performance indicators 10 were Green. We have five plants that are in the 11 regulatory response column, which means they have at 12 least one White finding. And we have two plants, I 13 believe, that have -- have either multiple White 14 findings or at least one Yellow finding. And, 15 finally, we have one plant that has had multiple 16 repetitive White findings that puts them in column 17 four of the action matrix.
18 So that's a summary of the results for 19 2002 for all the plants in Region IV. As Mr. Johnson 20 indicated, they are available on the public website.
21 In conjunction with your question, I 22 believe you asked whether or not this information was 23 discussed with the licensee. In the sense that all 24 our findings are publicly available and documented in 25
46 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 inspectional reports, that information is provided to 1
all, including the licensee. If there were a 2
significant finding -- for example, let's say there 3
was an event and we sent out one of these teams that 4
we referred to during the discussion and we did 5
follow-up on that event and characterized that finding 6
as something greater than Green, in all likelihood, by 7
our process, we would conduct a meeting such as this 8
to discuss the results of that inspection at the time 9
that the inspection was conducted.
10 Also, once the finding was characterized, 11 its significance was characterized, we would also hold 12 another public meeting to discuss the -- the NRC's 13 view on the significance of that finding. And then, 14 again, the documentation associated with the finding 15 would be made publicly available.
16 In terms of who reviews NRC regulations, 17 we have representatives here from the Office of 18 Nuclear Reactor Regulation. They are what we refer to 19 as our program office. They are in charge of 20 developing the programs, also which includes, in many 21 instances, development of revisions or new regulations 22 to address generic problems that may -- may face the 23 industry that are identified either through problems 24 that -- that crop up from time to time or as a result 25
47 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of generic safety issues that are identified by 1
various means, including research, both domestically 2
and internationally.
3 So they review the regulations basically 4
on a continual basis and do make revisions from time 5
to time. They also review implementing procedures and 6
regulatory programs that we use to provide oversight 7
for the implementation of those regulations by our 8
licensees. And then, finally, we do have an 9
independent Inspector General who conducts audits of 10 their choosing and who reports to our Chairman 11 separately from the NRC staff and also reports 12 directly to Congress.
13 For example, the Office of Inspector 14 General conducted a
number of investigations 15 associated with the reactor vessel head degradation of 16 the Ohio plant, Davis-Besse, that we referred to, just 17 to give you some idea of some of the reviews that they 18 conduct.
19 So hopefully that addresses that question.
20 MR. BERKOW: Art, Congressional oversight 21 committees.
22 MR. HOWELL: Yes. Recently -- Mr. Berkow 23 has just pointed out that we also report to Congress 24 various Congressional oversight committees at their 25
48 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 request to come and talk about issues that they wish 1
to be briefed on. For example, we've had a number of 2
recent Congressional oversight committee 3
subcommittee hearings on various matters facing the 4
agency, including the reactor vessel head degradation 5
issues at Davis-Besse and also some emergency 6
preparedness issues at a plant in New York.
7 In terms of emergency response, in terms 8
of evaluating the number of folks in the planning 9
areas that would have to -- who live in the planning 10 areas and would have to be evacuated, that is assessed 11 periodically by the licensee. I believe in the 12 planning area, there's somewhere in the order of what?
13
-- 175,000, 200,000 folks; is that --
14 MR. NUNN: One seventy-five-.
15 MR. HOWELL: One seventy-five-. And 16 studies are done on the evacuation times and they are 17 reviewed periodically.
18 In terms of folks who live outside the 19 EPZ, emergency planning zone, if there were to be a 20 serious accident or a condition in which the emergency 21 response portions were mobilized, depending on the 22 nature of the event, recommendations would be made --
23 considered and made for folks who live outside the 24 ten-mile EPZ, as necessary, so I just wanted to point 25
49 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that out.
1 Mr. Nunn, did you want to add anything?
2 Did I capture --
3 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. There was one 4
question, Ms. Hoffman, that you asked -- I may not 5
have it characterized, but it says if something -- if 6
something was not Green, would it be brought to the 7
attention I guess of the public? And I gave a good 8
example of a -- of an issue where it exceeded its 9
threshold from Green to White, and it didn't even 10 happen in this particular assessment period, but we 11 thought we'd bring it up front. It happened in this 12 particular 2003 inspection cycle. So we do bring that 13
-- we -- anything greater than Green, it is definitely 14 brought to the attention of the public.
15 MR. HOWELL: That's an excellent point.
16 I mean, what Mr. Johnson was referring to is that the 17
-- the fourth reactor trip scram, automatic shutdown 18 of the plant, occurred in the first calendar quarter 19 of 2003. We issue our reports on a quarterly basis.
20 That report has not even been issued yet, and yet 21 we're here tonight to share with you the fact that 22 that occurred and that we would need to do a 23 supplemental inspection as a result of crossing that 24 threshold.
25
50 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. JOHNSON: Art, there was one other 1
question, I think. It was if you lost off-site power, 2
what would run the plant? And you can mention the 3
diesel generators. I think, Ms. Hoffman, if you 4
characterize --
5 MR. HOWELL: Yes. The plant is designed 6
to cope with a loss of all off-site power for a number 7
of hours, and there are emergency procedures and plans 8
to restore power from -- from various multiple sources 9
in the event that that occurs. And that -- that has 10 been reviewed by the NRC as part of a regulation that 11 governs being able to cope with a loss of all off-site 12 power.
13 MS. PATTERSON: You know, I just -- maybe 14 I misunderstood. But I thought that one of her 15 questions was that if in fact Southern California 16 Edison is privy to some of the information, when do 17 they get it? Do they get that information the same 18 time as the public does or do they get it before we 19 know about it?
20 MR. HOWELL: They get the preliminary 21 results of all of our inspections at the completion of 22 the inspection. They get the official results at the 23 same time the public does, when the inspection report 24 is issued.
25
51 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS.
PATTERSON:
But they do get 1
information before the public does; is that what you 2
said?
3 MR. HOWELL: In that they become aware of 4
the inspection because we're at their facility 5
inspecting them, and so they get -- they obviously 6
know what questions we're asking them. In some cases 7
-- in many cases, almost in every case in fact, 8
there's -- there has to be two-way communication to 9
understand what information is provided, what it 10 means, and so in that sense they know what issues 11 we're looking at and what we're pursuing. They don't 12 know what the regulatory characterization of those 13 issues are until an exit meeting is conducted and a 14 report is issued.
15 MS. PATTERSON: So they don't get any 16 preliminary results before the public?
17 MR. HOWELL: No. I want to be clear.
18 They do get an exit meeting. Not all the exit 19 meetings are open to the public. We have guidance 20 that provides for different thresholds on which we do 21 conduct meetings for -- that are open to the public 22 that discuss inspection results. They're typically 23 associated with significant inspection findings, as 24 opposed to the more routine, very low safety 25
52 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 significant inspection findings.
1 Thank you.
2 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.
3 MS. HOFFMAN: And I would just like to say 4
that you spoke for considerably more than three 5
minutes.
6 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I'm sorry. The court 7
reporter can't pick you up there. If you would like 8
to have someone cede your minutes, that would be --
9 cede their minutes to you, that would be great. I 10 have Dan Farrell.
11 MS. HOFFMAN: Can I just -- I forgot one 12 point.
13 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Dan Farrell, please.
14 MS. HOFFMAN: Three seconds.
15 MR. FARRELL: No. It's okay.
16 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Is it okay?
17 MR. FARRELL: Sure.
18 MS. NEIDHOLDT: All right.
19 MS. HOFFMAN: Please. Thank you.
20 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Go right ahead.
21 MS. HOFFMAN: I would just like to say 22 that you spoke for considerably more than three 23 minutes, and you did not give a substantive answer to 24 anything that I asked. And let me tell you I have a 25
53 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 lot more than three minutes' worth of questions.
1 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.
2 MR. HOWELL: Yes. I understand that 3
perhaps just up here I didn't address fully everything 4
that you inquired about, and that's one of the reasons 5
why we have a court reporter, to capture all of those 6
issues, and --
7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What about my 8
questions? Am I chopped liver?
9 MR. HOWELL: Not at all, sir. At any time 10
-- as we indicated up here, we have contact 11 information. What -- the reason why we're trying to 12 limit it to three minutes is a lot of folks want to 13 communicate tonight, and we want to hold it and give 14 everybody here a chance to communicate. If you do 15 have additional issues or we weren't responsive, we 16 can deal with you after the meeting. We can certainly 17 have our contact information provided. And we can 18 work with you after the meeting in person, work with 19 you over the phone. If you wish to provide us with 20 additional issues or concerns, we would welcome that 21 and -- but, beyond that, we really do need to observe 22 some meeting rules so that everybody here has an 23 opportunity to participate in the meeting.
24 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. All right.
25
54 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Dan Farrell.
1 MR. FARRELL: Thank you. I'll be brief.
2 I'm going to ask for a little audience participation.
3 I'm going to ask the people in the audience if they 4
would raise their hand if they've been involved in an 5
evacuation. Anybody evacuated from Saigon? Anybody 6
evacuated from Chernobyl?
7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Not Chernobyl.
8 Evacuated during hurricanes and it's been very well-9 organized and very well-planned.
10 MR. FARRELL: Anybody evacuated from 11 Boston with the British? Anybody evacuated from Three 12 Mile Island? Jay, raise your hand. There we go. So 13 two people in the room have been involved in a nuclear 14 evacuation.
15 Twenty-four years ago last week was the 16 anniversary. I'm not here to hash over old things.
17 My name is Dan Farrell. I live in San Juan. I'm a 18 concerned citizen. I'm also a member of the 19 Physicians for Social Responsibility. I got my 20 potassium iodine tablets -- thank you very much. I 21 didn't throw it out. And I've got more than a two-day 22 supply. I know you need more because, as a member of 23 the Physicians for Social Responsibility, I went to a 24 symposium at UCLA and heard what would happen up there 25
55 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 if there was a catastrophe of the magnitude of Three 1
Mile Island or San Onofre that caused the people in 2
Koreatown, for instance, to evacuate the area and head 3
south. If that dry drunk fruitcake, that prince, 4
decided to throw a nuclear stink bomb into Koreatown, 5
the people that walk to Los Angeles over the last 60 6
years might easily walk back the same way they came.
7 And I'd like to know if the Sheriff, if the Marines, 8
if anybody here has made any thoughts as to what would 9
happen if it was the reverse.
10 It took me three days to get to my mother 11 at Three Mile Island. She lives a mile and a half 12 away. I came to California from Middletown in 1963.
13 But I was obsessed with -- and that's the word my wife 14 likes to use -- with what was happening back at Three 15 Mile Island two decades ago, 24 years ago, just like 16 the people that can't get enough television, that 17 can't get enough newspaper, that can't get enough --
18 so I came here tonight to find out, one, what the hell 19 is this strange occurrence that tripped us over the 20 threshold for Unit 4? I'm very aware of all the off-21 site things that terrorize me, and I don't want to 22 touch those. But I do like to think that if a hundred 23 thousand people decided to walk through San Onofre, 24 that the Sheriff's Department or the Marines or 25
56 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 somebody would be able to address that kind of reverse 1
traffic flow, which concerns me as somebody that went 2
through it.
3 That's all, folks. Thanks.
4 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. R.K. Dickie.
5 MR. DICKIE: Thank you.
6 MS. NEIDHOLDT: We're trading mikes.
7 Okay.
8 MR. DICKIE: We're going to trade mikes?
9 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Yeah.
10 MR. DICKIE: I really had very little to 11 discuss concerning the specifics. I was concerned 12 more about I think another evacuation problem that we 13 have concerning this area that has very little to do 14 with San Onofre, having considerable experience with 15 the overall safety factors that are associated with 16 that particular facility. My concern has been 17 strictly -- and I put on my sheet there that we've 18 been talking about a -- this 241 toll road and other 19 access things coming from North County, which would 20 impact the I-5 problem which we all have. And I have 21 been pushing for many years and would hope that we 22 would get the concerns of county, state, and federal 23 people involved in getting something as -- like 241 to 24 go in the direction of I- -- over to I-15 and forget 25
57 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 about any further I-5 access. I think we're over-1 impacted on I-5 at the moment. Has nothing to do with 2
nuclear security whatsoever. I don't think that's a 3
problem we should even be discussing.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. JOHNSON: Stefani, wait just one 6
second. Excuse me, sir. Did you ask a question a 7
while ago that -- that you wanted addressed? You kind 8
of --
9 MR. FARRELL: I would like somebody to 10 tell me that is there a reverse -- if we had a fuel 11 reversal that tripped the reactors and we weren't 12 gonna hear about it till next year, is there a plan in 13 effect to have a reverse migration if everybody starts 14 coming at us instead of leaving the area and coming 15 into the area? Are we thinking outside the box for a 16 contingency that --
17 MR. JOHNSON: Are you talking about egress 18 from the plant if an accident occurred? Maybe I'm not 19 following you.
20 MR. FARRELL: I'm saying somebody throws 21 a nuclear missile into Koreatown and everybody that 22 lives around Koreatown decides to come and go stay 23 with their aunt in Mexico, then the freeways are so 24 crowded because the cars are clogged and everybody's 25
58 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 motor home that hasn't been off the block in five 1
years is suddenly jammed with all the family valuables 2
and breaks down every hill, the people that are 3
causing accidents kind of get out of the way and 4
nobody's going to be moving except the people that 5
walk. So the people that walk are gonna be walking 6
towards --
7 MR. JOHNSON: So -- excuse me, sir. So 8
are you asking is there an emergency plan or something 9
set up for that?
10 MR. FARRELL: Is there an emergency plan 11 set up to deal with the reverse migration?
12 MR. HOWELL: People walking on foot as 13 opposed to vehicles.
14 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
15 MR. FARRELL: And walking south instead of 16 north.
17 MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Nunn, do you have 18 anybody that -- we want to refer this to the licensee 19
-- as far as your emergency plan.
20 MR. NUNN: Well, I'm not sure I understand 21 the question. If I understand the question, if 22 someone set off a nuclear weapon in Koreatown and 23 everyone in Los Angeles started going south, is there 24 an emergency plan for that? Not to my knowledge.
25
59 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. JOHNSON: Sir, did you -- did you 1
leave a question? We don't want to miss any questions 2
that you may have asked. I'm not sure if you asked a 3
question or not.
4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm on the list 5
later.
6 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. I'm talking about the 7
gentleman sitting next to you.
8 MR. DICKIE: I'm sorry?
9 MR. JOHNSON: Did you ask a question?
10 MR. DICKIE: My concern was just has there 11 been any consideration, that you're aware of, in terms 12 of federal or county activity or state that would 13 direct -- have other access routes for north and 14 south, regardless of whether it's just involving San 15 Onofre, which is probably not consequentially in this 16 discussion, but we have no other north-south route.
17 That's a major problem with activity -- people either 18 having to go north or south. At the moment, we keep 19 dumping people onto the I-5 and I think it just 20 further impacts both Camp Pendleton and San Onofre 21 unnecessarily. I don't think it's anything that's 22 within your purview.
23 MR. JOHNSON: So is it -- I guess the 24 question is --
25
60 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. NEIDHOLDT: No. It's not a question.
1 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
2 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Go ahead.
3 MR. NUNN: We're not aware of any -- any 4
initiative taken by any agency or certainly our 5
company that thought about or addressed the issue of 6
the new freeway proposal for 14 or whatever the number 7
is.
8 MS. NEIDHOLDT: All right. Lyn Harris 9
Hicks.
10 MS. HARRIS HICKS: Firstly, I'd like to 11 thank our moderator for being generous about offering 12 the chance for people to yield their time, because 13 it's very distressing when citizens come to a meeting 14 like this and then they listen for a long time to the 15 people talking about it and then ask their questions 16 and the answers take three times as long as the -- as 17 the question and the comment, and then maybe they're 18 shut off just before they reach the most important 19 part of what they want to say.
20 It's really distressing and so I think 21 that that's nice that she has allowed us to have some 22 yield their time so that we don't have that problem.
23 I'm Lyn Harris Hicks and I did not get my 24 comments approved before I came from my Creed Steering 25
61 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 (ph) group. But I think that I can say fairly that 1
the ones in the Creed Steering group that I work with 2
have been very appreciative of the fact that you who 3
most of the room -- in the room here are -- Edison and 4
Nuclear Regulatory Commission and so forth -- that you 5
are on the same target that we are here and that you 6
are doing everything you can to make things safe for 7
us and yourselves, and we know that. And when we come 8
and ask questions and bring up issues that we think 9
should be considered, we're trying to help. And if --
10 if there were some way that we could have our 11 participation received in the spirit in which it's 12 offered, we would appreciate that very much, too, 13 because we now have a directive from a subcommittee of 14 the Congress on -- they were -- they are taking up the 15 matters of emerging terrorist threat at nuclear power 16 plants. And it's not just threats that already exist, 17 but they are thinking in terms of emerging terrorist 18 threats, what might we expect now that we are in a 19 war, in a sense.
20 So the directive is that FEMA conduct a 21 reassessment of the evacuation planning and they chose 22 four areas -- pardon me -- four plants. They were 23 focusing at the time of this meeting on the Indian 24 Point, which of course is very important to New York 25
62 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and Connecticut. But they wanted to be national since 1
they are Congressional subcommittees. So they picked 2
four. I thought it was three, but I found out today 3
it was four -- four plants geographically spaced.
4 And one of them was San Onofre.
5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: You're done with your 6
three minutes.
7 MS. HARRIS HICKS: Okay. I think there's 8
somebody there who said I could have her time. Carol, 9
yes.
10 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. Go ahead.
11 MS. HARRIS HICKS: Okay. Thank you very 12 much. The -- the purpose of the hearing was to delve 13 into problems of evacuation. And there were some very 14
-- very angry persons on that panel because they were 15 asking questions from someone from the Nuclear 16 Regulatory Commission, someone from FEMA, and many 17 others, and they weren't getting the answers. And so 18 they did this. They said, Go back and study it and 19 make the -- make the changes that are needed.
20 One point which I think is very important 21 is that they were not considering the types of drills 22 that we've been doing as adequate, where everybody 23 knew it was going to happen and then they were -- they 24 went through the process of the communications 25
63 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 exercise. They want to have an exercise where the 1
people involved don't have the bus drivers on the bus 2
ready to come get the children and all that sort of 3
thing.
4 So that's one that is very important. And 5
we would like to help. We as citizens here would like 6
to have a part in the talking about, the suggestions 7
for, the planning for, that has been going on all 8
along and that we feel that we're shut out. So if you 9
can figure out a way that we can -- can have some 10 participation, we would very much like that.
11 Secondly, we have become aware as we're 12 studying this over the years of areas where we get 13 information that we feel that the public should have 14 and it's -- it's covered up. And I know that it 15 happens probably gradually where people don't want to 16 have -- to distress the citizens too much. But I --
17 I wanted to tell you that several of us who have heard 18 recent presentations on emergency planning from 19 emergency planners, they are saying that many of that 20 is going away, that the presentation is much more 21 forthright, and it isn't in a situation where every 22 three sentences we wish we could get up and say, 23 That's deceptive, or whatever. It's becoming much 24 better.
25
64 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And so, in a sense, I am saying to the 1
Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the Edison people, and 2
the people who are doing the emergency planning and so 3
- forth, are really giving us a
much better 4
presentation, from our standpoint.
5 And -- and we'd like to have the 6
opportunity to sit down with one or another of you 7
when you do something like that, when you're through 8
with it, and say, Well, what about this? Couldn't you 9
say this a little differently so people really know 10 what's happening? So that's mine for the night. And 11 thank you.
12 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.
13 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. And you're 14 right. Someone did cede their minutes. When I grow 15 up, maybe I'll learn how to read. Okay. Marion Beane 16 had a question. Is it -- you're not Marion. Okay.
17 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
18 Okay. I'll leave her and go on to Steve 19 Netherby.
20 MS. BROWN: Yeah. Excuse me. Could that 21 be Marianne Brown?
22 MS. NEIDHOLDT: It could.
23 MS. BROWN: If so, I'll give my time to 24 Steve.
25
65 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. NEIDHOLDT: It could. Okay.
1 MS. BROWN: Thank you.
2 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I think maybe it is.
3 MS. BROWN: Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't 4
walk up. Perhaps you can hear me.
5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Do you want -- I'll bring 6
-- I will bring you the mike.
7 MS. BROWN: Yeah. I just had hip surgery.
8 They put a hip in me from a very credible firm in 9
Switzerland. They forgot to check it, though, and it 10 was defective. Like you buy batteries and tires, so 11 slips do happen.
12 I'm fairly new to the area -- okay. I'm 13 fairly new to the area and curious and impressed with 14 certain things. I'd like some answers. You've talked 15 first about security. I'd like to know a lot more 16 specifics. What local groups are you working with, 17 and specifically what are you really doing? Because 18 I've encountered, just because of my nature to do 19 research projects, some pictures on the Internet at 20 various places where it doesn't look to me like things 21 are really safe here. So could that be -- could you 22 enhance and enlarge your discussion of that? What 23 groups are you working with within this area, question 24 one? And specifically, what are you really doing?
25
66 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Because I don't see that much change from what I've 1
observed.
2 MR. JOHNSON: Well, as far as security --
3 what's your name?
4 MS. BROWN: Marianne.
5 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Marianne, we don't --
6 there's certain things that we can't really discuss 7
security-wise, but I can tell you with all of -- the 8
NRC's put out about 50 advisories and orders to help 9
enhance our security organization, at least the 10 licensee's security organization. And a lot of that 11 information is not privy to the public. There's some 12 sensitive information and we really don't like to get 13 into the safeguards information publicly like that.
14 But I assure you these orders have enhanced the 15 security at all of our nuclear power plants.
16 MR. HOWELL: But, in general, I think as 17 we alluded to during the presentation, these 18 enhancements include such things as enhancing or 19 increasing the guard force at these plants, which you 20 wouldn't see from the street, increasing the number of 21 guard posts, increasing the standoff distances for 22 vehicles that could have access to the plant, 23 increased security checks, increased or more stringent 24 requirements for access to the plant in terms of 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 background investigations of individuals. The 1
Commission is also working with industry to provide 2
new requirements that would require more training for 3
security guards, limit their hours of work. These are 4
some of the issues that were raised at the Indian 5
Point plant. Some folks in the audience may be aware 6
of that. And so these are in response to some of 7
these generic issues that a number of plants, not 8
necessarily here at San Onofre, but across the board 9
that are being undertaken as part of this top-to-10 bottom review that Mr. Johnson referred to that's 11 ongoing by the agency.
12 And so we can talk in general terms but, 13 because of the sensitive nature of the information, 14 this information is protected, for obvious reasons --
15 because we don't want folks who can exploit the 16 details of this information to have access to it, and 17 that's one of the reasons why we can't talk in great 18 detail about it.
19 But we can work with you if you have an 20 interest in other information about what enhancements 21 are being made to security. We can give you -- we can 22 get your contact information and we can provide that.
23 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Second thing: Can 24 you clarify more about the hazardous events? What 25
68 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 actually was the potentia -- you spoke before, I 1
believe, hazardous events that have occurred within 2
the last year or so here; right? What -- frankly, I 3
think you slid through those. I wasn't clear as to 4
what the potential problems were with it.
5 MR. HOWELL: We were trying to share with 6
you -- the question was what hazardous events were 7
there. What we were trying to do was share with you 8
some of the issues that have taken up a lot of time in 9
the industry, in the NRC nationwide, and one of those 10 issues was this -- there's a problem at a plant in 11 Ohio in which there was significant degradation to the 12 reactor pressure vessel; in other words, there's a 13 steel shell on top to the reactor. It's about six 14 inches thick. And this thing corroded to the point 15 where there's only about three eighths of an inch 16 left. And so, as a result of that problem, the agency 17 has taken a number of actions nationwide to make sure 18 that that doesn't happen at another nuclear power 19 plant in the country.
20 And so Mr. Johnson was referring to some 21 of the inspections that are being done to check -- to 22 ensure that that level of degradation has not 23 occurred. So that's one of them.
24 And -- but in terms of events, there's no 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
-- there's been no particular events at this plant 1
that rise above the level of very low safety 2
significance that we referred to. There was some 3
automatic shutdowns and we have some other inspector 4
findings, but they were all very low safety 5
significance and not -- not particularly significant.
6 MS. BROWN: Okay. Thank you very much.
7 MR. HOWELL: Oh, I think you did have one 8
other question, and that was local law enforcement, 9
who the plant coordinates with. I don't want to 10 speak --
11 MR. NUNN: Yeah. Let me briefly talk 12 about security. For the 99 percent of what goes on in 13 security, you can't see from driving by the plant.
14 All you can see is our armed security officers 15 checking IDs on plants, going -- on personnel going 16 into the plant.
17 As the NRC has indicated, access to even 18 the owner-controlled area, which is not the plant 19 itself but office buildings and the like, has been 20 limited to employees and business persons and positive 21 identification has to be made to enter that area.
22 We have a highly trained professional 23 security force. Eighty-five percent of those either 24 have military experience or prior police experience.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Do you want me to wait till you finish to continue 1
talking? Are you interested in this?
2 MS. BROWN: Yes. Then there's one further 3
question that's rather pressing, and --
4 MR. NUNN: I haven't finished my answer 5
yet.
6 MS. BROWN: Oh, I'm sorry.
7 MR. NUNN: You asked who our local law 8
enforcement contacts are. Our local law enforcement 9
authority for San Onofre is the FBI. They're our 10 primary contact for any crimes or threats. We also 11 have the Orange County Sheriff, the San Diego County 12 Sheriff, the Highway Patrol. Perhaps if you've driven 13 by the plant, you've noticed that typically in the 14 condition Orange, there is a Highway Patrol officer 15 stationed outside the plant. We have access to the 16 Marine Corps in the event of an event at San Onofre, 17 so I think we're very lucky in many respects to have 18 both the FBI and very professional County Sheriff's 19 Departments, the Highway Patrol, and the Marine Corps 20 to call upon in the event of an attack on San Onofre.
21 MS. BROWN: Thank you.
22 MR. HOWELL: Did that answer --
23 MS. BROWN: Have they ever thought about 24 using a water tube to remove -- placing them all along 25
71 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 highways?
1 THE REPORTER: I cannot hear you when you 2
talk without a microphone.
3 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me, Miss. Could you 4
talk --
5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I've got to give her a 6
mike back.
7 THE REPORTER: None of the last two 8
questions have been on the record. She has not had a 9
mike.
10 MS. BROWN: Has there been any thought of 11 ever using the ocean and boats to evacuate people 12 rather than for the congestion of freeways? I'm from 13 Colorado, so I don't understand some of your issues 14 out here.
15 MR. NUNN: No.
16 MS. BROWN: No. Okay.
17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Why not?
18 MS. BROWN: Why not?
19 MR. HOWELL: Who's that?
20 MR. NUNN: Who's got a boat?
21 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay.
22 MR. JOHNSON: We'd like to get your name 23 also so we can respond to some of your questions.
24 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Marianne Brown. Marianne 25
72 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Brown. Okay? Steve Netherby.
1 MR. NETHERBY: Steve Netherby from San 2
Clemente. To truly enjoy family life in their quiet, 3
beautiful, throwback beach town, San Clemente citizens 4
live in a self-imposed state of denial, denial that we 5
might be inundated by urban sprawl, that an ill-6 conceived toll road might slice our irreplaceable and 7
globally priceless back-country in two and multiply 8
our I-5 traffic problems, that double-tracking might 9
wreck our beaches, and finally that a radiation 10 disaster at SONGS might make all our other local 11 threats seem less than trivial.
12 I'd like to read a paragraph from an 13 article that many of you may have seen in the June 24, 14 2002 Newsweek that shook some of us, at least 15 temporarily, from our denial state.
16 Jonathan Alter in his article "At the Core 17 of Nuclear Fear" was talking about Indian Point that's 18 been mentioned.
19 "At least the containment facility that 20 houses the reactor was designed to be 21 protected. Unless you include beefed-up 22 perimeter security after 9/11, the same 23 cannot be said of the nearby spent fuel 24 pools, the 38-foot-deep pools with no 25
73 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 hardened dome that house the depleted 1
fuel rod assemblies removed from the 2
reactor. Indian Point's three pools are 3
in bedrock, but at many other nuclear 4
plants (I won't tell you which ones) the 5
pools are above ground level. As Frank 6
Von Hipple of Princeton explained to me, 7
'If the water is somehow drained, the 8
rods could ignite in a horrendous 9
zirconium fire, releasing Cesium-137 that 10 would render hundreds of square miles 11 uninhabitable for generations, a horror 12 no pill could help.' The odds are very 13 low, but not low enough."
14 My questions are two, and we've discussed 15 one of them. Are our containment pools sufficiently 16 impermeable to seismic events, for instance, and 17 terrorist attack that could trigger such a disaster?
18
- And, two, have SONGS security measures been 19 sufficiently hardened since 9/11 to protect against 20 the terrorist threats that have become such an 21 undeniable part of our daily lives, even in quiet, 22 beautiful San Clemente?
23 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. He had two questions.
24 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Yeah. I have a gentleman 25
74 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that people have ceded time to that also has Unit 1 1
questions, so should we let him talk first and get all 2
the questions or -- you want to do this to start?
3 MR. HOWELL: Yes.
4 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. Who's --
5 MR. JOHNSON: I think the first question 6
-- the very last question you asked, you asked about 7
the zirconium fire. Am I correct? -- the first 8
question. Now, your last question -- let me -- I want 9
to make sure we address that.
10 As -- I think you mentioned about 11 security. I can say with the order that's been passed 12 down from the NRC, that the security -- the security 13 enhancements have definitely been improved. And I 14 want to make sure that you understand with all these 15 enhancements -- and, again, we can't get into 16 specifics -- but the security has definitely been 17 enhanced since 9/11. And to this day now, we have 18 security inspectors, NRC inspectors, that come to this 19 site and all other sites and review security measures 20 to determine or verify that the enhancements have been 21 implemented at the sites.
22 I think that was your last question. Did 23 I --
24 MR. NETHERBY: Yeah. And to cover the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 sort of press that this gentleman over here brought 1
up, are they to the level that you feel that that sort 2
of -- those sorts of threats can be effectively 3
avoided?
4 MR. HOWELL: I just wanted to add another 5
point to what Mr. Johnson said. In addition to all 6
those things, the NRC is continuing to analyze any 7
potential vulnerabilities associated with spent fuel 8
pools. In fact, some of the enhancements that we've 9
talked about in general terms have stemmed from some 10 of these ongoing reviews that have transpired over the 11 past year and a half. Not all those reviews have been 12 completed. They're still ongoing. And so the NRC is 13 further assessing not only impacts from different 14 potential terrorist threats not only to the spent fuel 15 pools but also to the plant -- plants overall.
16 And so one could expect that, in the 17 future, that there will be additional actions. But 18 there has been significant upgrading of security for 19 these pools and the site -- the site as a whole.
20 And I just want to point out that the 21 security that existed prior to 9/11 was quite robust.
22 If you look at what's going on at a national level, 23 one of the main focuses of not only the Federal 24 Government, but also state and local governments, is 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 to to upgrade protection of critical 1
infrastructure, of which nuclear power plants are just 2
one small piece of, a very important piece. Nuclear 3
power plants prior to 9/11 had a robust security 4
protection scheme that has been enhanced. Further 5
reviews are ongoing, and we expect that additional 6
measures will be taken in the future.
7 In terms of zirconium fires, the NRC has 8
specifically assessed that potential for the drainage 9
of water and the potential for a fire from uncovered 10 spent fuel and, as you indicated, a fire can occur 11 under certain circumstances. The probability is very 12 low. And one of the reasons it's very low is that 13 there's multiple sources at the plant. I think 14 there's at least six or seven, if not more, pre-15 positioned sources to maintain water and keep that 16 fuel covered in case there was a problem with the 17 level of cooling -- or the level of water for the 18 spent fuel pool.
19 So --
20 MR. NETHERBY: Do you feel that the spent 21 fuel pool housing is -- is robust enough, to use your 22 term, to withstand a terrorist attack?
23 MR. HOWELL: That's a broad question and, 24 depending on how you define that -- you know, we can 25
77 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 talk about, you know, anything from one or two folks 1
trying to do something -- do ill toward the plant --
2 MR. NETHERBY: Let's say a shoulder-fired 3
missile from a parking lot.
4 MR. HOWELL: I can't -- I can't really get 5
into the details, but yes, the plant is very robust.
6 And you had a question about seismic, too, and the 7
plant is designed to withstand all the worst-case 8
predicted seismic events based on real data that 9
exists for this part of the country, as well as the 10 rest of the plant, for that matter. So --
11 MR. NETHERBY: And, Rick, are you going to 12 address seismic? Okay.
13 MR. HOWELL: Thank you.
14 MR. JOHNSON: Again, so we can capture all 15 your questions, please talk into the mike. Don't 16 start talking until we give you the mike. Thank you.
17 MS. NEIDHOLDT: The court reporter keeps 18 giving me dirty looks 'cause he can't hear you guys.
19 Richard Redfield. And you've had two 20 people cede their minutes to you, so you have nine 21 minutes.
22 MR. REDFIELD: Okay. I may not need all 23 of that time. I may be able to give it back. I hope 24 to wrap this up fairly quickly.
25
78 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I also want to address the spent fuel pool 1
at Unit 1 and the possibility of terrorism and the 2
vulnerability of that spent fuel pool. There's been 3
numerous -- there's been much debate in the United 4
States recently about exactly those issues, and there 5
are differing opinions, and those opinions haven't 6
been expressed here tonight.
7 Dr. Gordon Thompson has produced a 8
videotape that addresses some of those issues, and it 9
is available from Mothers for Peace at Diablo Canyon 10 and it is a very enlightening videotape to watch and 11 see those issues.
12 My main concern is about robustness and 13 ability of Unit 1 spent fuel pool to resist a 14 terrorist attack or a seismic event, particularly the 15 roof and supporting structures of the roof, and I'd 16 like the NRC and the plant officials to address those 17 issues.
18 In addition, I would like them to state 19 from that
- report, from the NRC
- report, the 20 consequences of a full-scale, fully-involved zirconium 21 fire at the Unit 1 spent fuel pool.
22 And I also believe that they are seriously 23 in error in their assessment of the security at the 24 plant in relation to the Unit 1 spent fuel pool, 25
79 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 particularly in relation to truck bomb barriers, which 1
Paul Leventhal and Dan Hirsch spent ten years arguing 2
with the NRC to get those installed. They weren't 3
installed until 1994. The effort began in 1984. It 4
took ten years for those two activists to convince the 5
NRC to install truck bombs. I believe that there is 6
a serious deficiency concerning those types of 7
physical barriers at San Onofre Unit 1 near the spent 8
fuel pool.
9 Thank you very much.
10 MR. WALDO: Claude, --
11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want us to 12 answer that?
13 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, if you don't mind.
14 MR. WALDO: I'd like to bring up a couple 15 of points regarding the questions and try to address 16 the questions that were asked.
17 One thing to understand is that the fuel 18 at Unit 1 is stored below grade, below ground level; 19 all right? So water draining out of the spent fuel 20 pool would be a difficult thing to -- to anticipate.
21 Second of all, a zirconium fire is not 22 applicable. Unit 1's fuel was stainless steel, not 23 zirconium. The fuel at Unit 1 did not use zirconium.
24 Zirconium fire is not credible at Unit 1.
25
80 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 The structure as
- designed, it's 1
seismically analyzed.
2 The other thing I guess I'll point out is 3
the last time that Unit 1 operated was in 1992. So 4
the heat load in the spent fuel pool is extremely low.
5 So there's no particular need to even cool the spent 6
fuel pool at all. The heat load is minor enough so 7
that the pool is slightly above room temperature and 8
that's it.
9 So, anyway, I think there may be concerns 10 that are raised for generic plant sites and things 11 like that. They're not applicable to Unit 1.
12 MR. REDFIELD: I'd like to -- I'd like the 13 members to address the possibility that there is fuel 14 from Units 2 and 3 stored at Unit 1, okay? And, also, 15 I'd like you to address the problem of truck bomb 16 barriers guarding the entrances to the spent fuel pool 17 at Unit 1.
18 MR. NUNN: We have barriers outside the 19 plant. I'm not aware of any problems with them. So 20
-- nor do I think there is any problems with them.
21 MR. REDFIELD: Without addressing too much 22 in the way of specifics, I'd like to say that I have 23 photographs that prove that there is a problem and you 24 should take a look at it.
25
81 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Be happy to.
1 MR. JOHNSON: We'll get with you after the 2
meeting.
3 MR. REDFIELD: Thank you.
4 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
5 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Bill Freeman.
6 MR. FREEMAN: Hi. I'm just a resident of 7
San Clemente and I came down here basically because I 8
was worried about the possibility of an airplane 9
crashing into the facility, and I had a chance to talk 10 to the representative from Edison, and he basically 11 answered that he didn't think the risk was sufficient 12 enough to incur the expense.
13 And I was just wondering who makes those 14 calculations and who decides whether a 767 going into 15 that dome might cause a major problem, and maybe the 16 fellow from Pendleton could answer that question 17 because engineers didn't think that a plane going into 18 the World Trade Center would bring the entire 19 structure down either. So I was just wondering -- it 20 doesn't seem like it would cost that much to station 21 some surface-to-air missiles there. So -- and any 22 time I have left, --
23 MR. JOHNSON: Would you rephrase the 24 question? What is --
25
82 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. DRICKS: I got it. I got it.
1 MR. FREEMAN: He understands it. And then 2
if I've got two minutes left, I'd like to cede it to 3
Pam here.
4 MR. DRICKS: I'll try to answer your 5
question. Although the possibility of an aircraft 6
being deliberately crashed into a reactor was not 7
specifically analyzed, the NRC believes that the 8
containment buildings that surround the nuclear power 9
plants in the country are very robust in design, among 10 the hardest industrial targets in the country.
11 We have a number of studies that are 12 currently underway that will specifically analyze what 13 the effects could be. But at this point, as I say, we 14 think that the structures are extremely robust and 15 would probably be able to withstand that kind of an 16 impact. But there are a number of studies which are 17 currently underway that will look at specific 18 scenarios like that.
19 MR. FREEMAN: While those studies are 20 underway, is there any --
21 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me, sir. Please talk 22 into the microphone.
23 MR. FREEMAN: I need to use the 24 microphone. Okay. Since there is some possibility, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I'm wondering what would be the problem or the 1
downside of stationing something there that could take 2
out an airliner if it was heading in? I mean, just 3
common sense.
4 MR. DRICKS: There have been a lot --
5 MR. FREEMAN: Maybe one, so I don't have 6
to come up here again, --
7 MR. DRICKS: Okay.
8 MR. FREEMAN: -- real quickly, you 9
mentioned that the airspace above San Onofre was 10 closed for loitering. I mean, that indicates that 11 there must be some concern, but I don't think that a 12 plane would loiter before it came in. So there must 13 be some, again, concern there. That's why you've 14 instituted that no-fly loitering zone. It doesn't 15 sound like there's a no-fly zone. There's no hanging 16 around up above the plant zone. So that would be, you 17 know -- wondering what -- I mean, what would be the 18 expense of --
19 MR. JOHNSON: It's just not San Onofre, 20 sir. It's just not San Onofre. This is -- this is at 21 all power plants.
22 MR. DRICKS: There have been notices to 23 airmen that have been issued by the FAA that basically 24 prohibit the planes from, as you say, loitering in the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 vicinity of the plants. Over the last year and a 1
half, there have been a number of incidents of planes 2
that have strayed too close into the airspace of some 3
nuclear plants and have been either intercepted by 4
military aircraft or have had interviews with the FBI 5
immediately when they landed. There have been a 6
number of suggestions made over the last year and a 7
half about different approaches that might be taken to 8
protect the plants. These range from placement of 9
anti-aircraft guns around the plants to the 10 construction of some sort of structure that would 11 protect the airspace over the plant or deflect it.
12 All of these things are currently under 13 consideration. Clearly, the plants were not designed 14 to be able to withstand acts of war. In light of 15 9/11, we realize that the previous threat that we 16 asked the plants to be able to defend themselves 17 against scenarios that were not considered probable, 18 are now considered possible. Nobody anticipated the 19 possibility of kamikaze attacks into a nuclear plant.
20 So all of those things are being looked 21 at. We have a number of -- we have the National 22 Laboratories working with us to try to come up with 23 some solutions to the problem. And we've been working 24 on it for the last year and a half.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. Ricardo Nicol.
1 MR. NICOL: Thank you. The focus, of 2
course, in terrorist attack is naturally predominant 3
right now. It's certainly a possibility. But there 4
is the other hazard, which is not only possible but a 5
virtual certainty and it would bear -- bring forces to 6
bear on San Onofre and the surrounding area greater 7
than any terrorist attack, and that's of course a 8
catastrophic earthquake.
9 Given that -- that earthquakes -- recent 10 earthquakes in the last 15 years around Los Angeles, 11 Southern California, have rendered the freeways 12 unpassable due to falling bridges and other things, 13 the freeways in a catastrophic earthquake are not 14 usable. All you have to do is have one bridge come 15 down and that's -- that's the end of that freeway as 16 an escape route.
17 So the -- the Indian Point -- with that as 18 a preamble, the Indian Point, a New York nuclear 19 plant, an emergency evacuation plan was recently 20 submitted to a review and analysis by an independent 21 panel of experts. That process resulted in the 22 discovery and public awareness of many severe 23 weaknesses in the emergency plan. The review of the 24 Indian Point plan cost about $800,000. Given that 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Southern California Edison has received billions of 1
dollars in stranded assets and may receive further 2
money, bailout money from the citizens of California, 3
would Southern California Edison and the San Onofre 4
Nuclear Plant be willing to provide money to allow 5
performance of an equally independent and 6
comprehensive analysis of the emergency plan for the 7
San Onofre Nuclear Plant?
8 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you. Stay here.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Would you --
10 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. Did you -- did you 11 want to stay here in case you want to ask another 12 question?
13 MR. NICOL: Yes.
14 MR.
NUNN:
Our emergency plan is 15 independently assessed by both the Federal Emergency 16 Management Agency -- almost said Commission -- and the 17 Nuclear Regulatory Commission. You've heard a number 18 of people here tonight, including things that were 19 brought up in the Witt (ph) report, which you referred 20 to, that indicated that our communications, our 21 drills, and the assessment of our program is very 22 high. So we don't -- I don't basically agree with 23 your premise that it needs yet another independent 24 assessment.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. NICOL: What about the subject of 1
freeways being -- being -- I'm sure they're a big 2
component of the emergency evacuation plan. Given 3
that they would be rendered unusable in an event of a 4
catastrophic earthquake, what alternatives are there, 5
if any?
6 MR. NUNN: Well, as a result of some of 7
the earthquakes you mentioned, the freeway overpasses 8
have been upgraded, and I think you can see that in 9
several modifications on some of the older overpasses 10 in this vicinity.
11 The San Onofre Plant is designed for a 12 very substantial earthquake, which would not cause a 13
-- the safety systems nor San Onofre would not fail in 14 the event of a very substantial earthquake. So the 15 combination of the freeway -- or the overpasses being 16 upgraded as a result of earthquakes throughout 17 California, to a higher standard than those that were 18 built that failed in the Pacoima and other 19 earthquakes, and the high seismic design of San 20 Onofre, indicate that that's adequate protection for 21 the public health and safety.
22 MR. NICOL: I listened to what you're 23 saying, and the -- and I can remember the earthquake 24 in Pacoima or Sylmar earthquake, the bridges did come 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 down. But then also the freeway right away itself 1
buckled to the point that it was unusable. So I don't 2
know whether the roadway itself has been upgraded to 3
take care of that. It wasn't just the bridges coming 4
down. The buckling of the roadway itself made it 5
impossible. And I know that from first -- personal 6
experience because I tried to negotiate those freeways 7
after going through Ventura County and they were 8
totally unpassable, not just because of the bridges 9
but also because the roadway buckled for miles and it 10 was impossible.
11 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Pam Patterson.
12 MS. PATTERSON: I've been studying this 13 issue for about two weeks, so I'm pretty new to it.
14 But one of my questions was what is the role that the 15 NRC plays? Because it doesn't seem to me, just based 16 on what I've seen tonight, that it's a neutral role.
17 I mean, you seem more like an advocate and you're 18 using conclusionary wording, such as "very low safety 19 significance" and, you know, that the plant was 20 effectively managed. I mean, I don't know. It seems 21 like if it was effectively managed, we wouldn't be 22 having this hearing tonight.
23 Also, you know, I don't see any other 24 people that you've brought up to speak as far as what 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the opposing issues are so, to me, you don't seem like 1
you're neutral -- you're not playing a neutral role.
2 My big concern, obviously, is the security 3
of the power plant. I have small children that live 4
in -- you know, we live in San Juan Capistrano. And 5
actually, from what I've now been seeing and 6
researching, it doesn't seem like it's secure to me.
7 There -- you know, there's this Princeton study that 8
just came out February 13th of this year that refers 9
to the High Density Storage Systems of those fuel rods 10 that a couple people already mentioned, and it says 11 that -- and, actually, they're specifically looking at 12
-- it's a study entitled "High Density Storage of 13 Nuclear Waste Heightens Terrorism Risks."
14 Now, these people don't have a vested 15 interest in the outcome, which I kind of feel like you 16 people do, and obviously Southern California Edison 17 has a vested interest in the outcome of this hearing.
18 Princeton, obviously, is, you know, one of -- a 19 renowned institution in the United States, and I think 20 that we all respect studies that Princeton does.
21 So it says here, "High Density Storage of 22 Nuclear Waste Heightens Terrorism Risks." And it 23 specifically is talking about the way that these rods 24 are not being properly stored. I guess that maybe 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 there wasn't enough space allocated for the rods. And 1
so because they're, you know, packing in more rods 2
than they should, it's increased the density and has 3
-- it says that -- excuse me.
4 MR. NUNN: Excuse us.
5 MS. PATTERSON: Thank you. Basically, 6
what it says here is that it could contaminate -- that 7
a fire -- if the water in these tanks leaked, it would 8
cause a fire which could contaminate a land area eight 9
to 70 times greater than that in the Chernobyl 10 incident, which if you do the math, that's somewhere 11 between 160-mile radius up to 1400 miles which, you 12 know, obviously, that's a concern.
13 Okay. So -- so that's one of my -- you 14 know, I want that addressed.
15 I want to know -- you know, you say that 16 you're considering or you're looking into I guess how 17 you're going to handle planes coming over the power 18 plant. I mean, so -- I mean, to me, it seems like 19 you're in the default, that a terrorist attack is not 20 going to happen. Obviously, since September 11th, you 21 know, we should all be pretty much clued in on the 22 fact that, yes, it can happen and it did happen and 23 now we're at war; okay? So it's a completely 24 different situation.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And -- so, you know, waiting until a plane 1
lands and then you're going to have the FBI talk to 2
them, that's not really sufficient. You people have 3
an absolute responsibility to secure that plant. So 4
I want to know what is your no-flight policy?
5 And I know that you like to keep saying, 6
Well, it's, you know, confidential and we can't give 7
you the specifics. Well, then, you know, we have 8
concerned citizens here. Let's get some people 9
together who have a security clearance, that know the 10 issues and are familiar with it, that we can trust and 11 then you can meet with them and you can give them the 12 specifics so that we know that all bases are covered.
13 Because I don't want to just rely on the 14 fact that we have -- you have enhanced security; okay?
15 My kids' lives are not going to depend on that. I 16 have -- no, excuse me. I have time ceded.
17 (Applause.)
18 Thank you. Okay. So I also wanted to 19 know -- oh, even -- you know, here your own what? --
20 the spokesperson for the power plant, I mean, does 21 this instill you with confidence? They said --
22 they're using retired -- you know, retired military 23 and police people to guard the gate at San Onofre. I 24 want to know how old these people are -- 65, you know.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Good, let's go get the retirees, you know.
1 In the City of San Clemente, the Domestic 2
Terrorism Preparedness, their like official statement, 3
is that, "The City of San Clemente is not considered 4
a high-risk area as are cities with high population 5
densities." Are you people crazy? Okay. They 6
already did New York City. What do you think is a 7
prime target next? L.A. maybe? And what's L.A.'s 8
nuclear power plant? What can you get more bang for 9
the buck than hitting San Onofre? Okay? I mean, it 10 takes nothing. They'll take out Hollywood. They'll 11 take out L.A. They'll take out the whole region. And 12 you people are basing it on the fact that it's not 13 high risk because San Clemente doesn't have a high 14 population density? I mean, come on.
15 And then it also says here, "Also, the 16 likelihood of a terrorist attack reaching the 17 containment vessels at SONGS is remote." Well, you 18 know what? It was pretty remote that they would take 19 down the World Trade Center, too, so maybe you'd 20 better start considering remote.
21 And then this. And you know what? If 22 we're so secure, why are you handing out pills?
23 (Applause.)
24 This -- I just love this. Okay. This is 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the spokesperson for Ray Golden, the spokesperson for 1
the power plant. "We could further enhance security 2
if we feel we need to be more vigilant. We do have 3
the capability if we were ever to identify a credible 4
and real threat to call upon other resources." You 5
really think somebody's going to give you a phone 6
call, "We're planning to hit the plant next Thursday"?
7 Is that what you think? You know, I don't know what 8
-- what more you need. Okay. We freakin' have taken 9
on these terrorists and so we're at war.
10 And they -- you know, so, anyway, I'm not 11 really happy. I don't feel confident. I don't feel 12 secure. I feel that my children's lives are at risk.
13 And I feel like the lives of everybody around here are 14 at risk and you're playing with us. Okay? You're not 15 taking it seriously.
16 And you know what? The evacuation plan, 17 are you people crazy? Have you ever tried to be on 18 the freeway even at rush hour? How long does it take 19 to get from San Juan to Santa Ana? An hour. And 20 that's just a typical day, you know. You kidding me?
21 (Applause.)
22 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Thank you.
23 MR. JOHNSON: We'd like to get with you 24 after that, but I want to make one thing clear. I 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 don't know if you heard when I first opened this 1
presentation, I
stated the purpose of this 2
presentation, and I thought that was clear. And if I 3
didn't make that come across, I apologize for that.
4 But I think I did state the purpose of 5
what the NRC's role was, and I don't know if you were 6
here at the time. So if not, we'll get together and 7
I'll explain to you the role.
8 MS. PATTERSON: Is it a PR thing? Is it 9
a PR thing? I mean, --
10 MR. JOHNSON: I guess I don't understand 11 the question of what our purpose -- I gave you the 12 purpose of what this meeting was about. So maybe we 13 need to talk a little bit after that.
14 MS. PATTERSON: I don't believe -- I just 15 don't like that, you know, it's like your little 16 Powerpoint presentation -- you know, it's like, come 17 on. You're just trying to make us -- you're just 18 trying to placate us. Okay? You're not addressing 19 any of the real issues. You're not giving us any real 20 information. You know, let us be the judge if there's 21 a low safety security risk. You know, don't give us 22 conclusionary language. We want to know what's going 23 on. And the fact that there's a hearing here at all 24 tonight shows that it's not being run properly.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. JOHNSON: That's --
1 MS. PATTERSON: Or there wouldn't be a --
2 you've exceeded the number of --
3 MR. JOHNSON: This is not a hearing. This 4
is a presentation of an annual assessment of the 5
licensee's performance. I'm sorry if you weren't here 6
at the beginning of this presentation, but I thought 7
I made the purpose very clear, and I will go over it 8
again after this. We'll get together and I'll state 9
our purpose again. We'll get your concerns. But I 10 stated the purpose very clearly I thought.
11 MR. DRICKS: Let me try to respond to a 12 number of the things that you said. We are an 13 independent regulatory agency. What you heard and 14 characterized as conclusions were conclusions that 15 were drawn on the basis of experts that we have who 16 work for the agency. They're nuclear engineers, 17 electrical engineers, security experts, inspectors 18 like the residents who are permanently assigned to 19 each of the facilities in the country. They spend 20 time going through the plant each day, interviewing 21 people, looking at records, and drawing conclusions.
22 The reason we have this meeting is so that 23 at least once a year we give you, the members of the 24 public, an opportunity to meet with the federal 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 officials who are mostly in Washington, D.C. or in 1
Arlington, Texas that you might normally not have a 2
chance to interact with and get to see that they're 3
people who, like yourself, live in the community, who 4
have children and families here, who are not going to 5
do anything to endanger those people, and so that you 6
can get some of your questions answered.
7 Now, you asked a lot of questions and I 8
understand that you're pretty upset about them. I'll 9
try to respond to as many as I can recall. You asked 10 again about the spent fuel pools, and it's a theme 11 that we've heard a lot about tonight. As the folks 12 from Southern California Edison indicated, in two 13 thirds of the power plants in the United States with 14 pressurized water reactors, the spent fuel pools are 15 located below ground level. That means that in order 16 to penetrate -- the study that you talked about at 17 Princeton presumes that one were able to draw -- knock 18 a hole in the bottom of a 40-foot-deep pool. All 19 right? These pools are filled with water. They have 20 walls that are three or four or five feet thick of 21 steel and reinforced concrete. For the purpose of 22 that Princeton study, they looked at -- they asked the 23 question, What would happen if we drained all the 24 water out of one of these spent fuel pools and the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 spent fuel was then allowed to catch fire?
1 So there's a couple things that would 2
preclude that. The first is the fact that these walls 3
are three or four feet thick. The second is that you 4
would have -- you would have to drill a hole 5
perpendicularly through the very bottom of the pool 6
and have all the water drain out. The third thing is 7
that the folks at the plant wouldn't -- would just sit 8
by and do nothing and let all the water drain out of 9
the pool and not make any attempt to cover the fuel.
10 MS. PATTERSON: But what you're doing is 11 you're basing your information just on what Southern 12 California Edison is providing you, who obviously has 13 a vested interest in that plant. And, secondly, I 14 don't want to know how it can't happen. I want some 15 people that --
16 MR. DRICKS: Well, --
17 MS. PATTERSON: -- know about this to tell 18 us how it can happen and then you need to make sure 19 that it doesn't happen.
20 MR. DRICKS: We are making sure it doesn't 21 happen because --
22 MS. PATTERSON: And I want to know how 23 you --
24 MR. DRICKS: Because we -- because we have 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 inspectors who are at the plants --
1 MS. PATTERSON: And I want to know who the 2
inspectors are. I don't --
3 MR. DRICKS: They're sitting right in 4
front of you, these --
5 MS. PATTERSON: Yeah, but I don't think 6
you're a neutral party. I can tell by the way that 7
you're talking that you are advocates of nuclear --
8 MR. DRICKS: We're not advocates of 9
nuclear power.
10 MS. PATTERSON: I can tell by this whole 11 presentation.
12 MR. DRICKS: Well, all I can say is we're 13 an independent safety regulator. Our job is to ensure 14 that --
15 MS. PATTERSON: Well, I think that we 16 should be able -- concerned citizens should be able to 17 get our group of people that have the security 18 clearance required and then you -- and then they will 19 assure us that you're doing it properly.
20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Independent group.
21 MR. HOWELL: Yes. As Victor indicated, 22 you have a lot of issues. We understand you're upset.
23 What we would offer is that perhaps we could get with 24 you and -- so that we capture all the concerns and 25
99 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that we -- it's a lot of information for us to process 1
here tonight, and we really very much want to 2
understand in detail all the issues so that we can --
3 MS. PATTERSON: And I want you to think 4
about all the kids that live here.
5 MR. HOWELL: Believe me, we do. We do.
6 We have folks that live in the community --
7 MS. PATTERSON: Yeah, but they don't see 8
us. Okay? I -- and I don't have any confidence in 9
the security over there. And you're handing out 10 pills? You know, the fact that you're handing out 11 pills for people to take is, per se, you know -- I 12 mean, we don't even need to discuss it any further 13 than that. If you think that there is any reason that 14 we need to be taking these pills, you need to freaking 15 get on the security issue.
16 MS. NEIDHOLDT: We do need to move on, and 17 I need to say one thing. I've been with the NRC for 18 12 years. All but eight, I've lived in San Clemente.
19 I've raised two kids. I'm not a stupid person.
20 MS. PATTERSON: That was before the 21 terrorists --
22 MS. NEIDHOLDT: I just want you to know my 23 kids are fine.
24 MS. PATTERSON: -- came to this country.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 You know, that was before the World Trade Center.
1 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay.
2 MS.
PATTERSON:
It's a
different 3
situation.
4 MS. NEIDHOLDT: That -- okay.
5 MS. PATTERSON: We're at war.
6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Point of order. In 7
the documents we were shown, it says NRC performance 8
goals are to enhance public confidence.
9 MS. NEIDHOLDT: Okay. That concludes the 10 question-and-answer portion of which I have people on 11 the list. Okay? Everyone that was on the list that 12 wanted to speak has had their time. I thank you very 13 much. I'm going to turn this back over to Mr.
14 Johnson.
15 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Stefani. For 16 those that apparently we didn't satisfy on our 17 question and answers, I would like for you to get with 18 us after this meeting and we'll document your concerns 19 and try to provide you a formal response of some type.
20 However, it would be much easier and it's over now, 21 but if you'd have spoke into the microphone, we could 22 have documented it a little better. And I think our 23 court reporter had a hard time to capture all that.
24 But we'll be -- we'll stay around -- we'll be --
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 several of us will stay around this afternoon --
1 tonight -- to capture your concerns specifically.
2 Art, do you have anything you want to add 3
to this?
4 MR. HOWELL: Might want to ask Mr. Nunn.
5 MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Nunn?
6 MR. NUNN: None.
7 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. We appreciate your 8
attendance
- tonight, and that concludes our 9
presentation tonight. And I just want to make sure --
10 this is not a hearing. This was an annual assessment 11 of the licensee's performance.
12 Thank you.
13 (Whereupon, at 9:26 a.m., the assessment 14 meeting was concluded.)
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25