ML20127F835
| ML20127F835 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/16/1992 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF STATE PROGRAMS (OSP) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9301210048 | |
| Download: ML20127F835 (125) | |
Text
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OFFICIALTRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS Ageng: U.s. Nuclear aeculatory Commission
Title:
orrice or state Programs Workshop on 10 CFR Part 34 (Public Meeting)
Docket No.
IOCATION: Irving, Texas Monday, November 16, 1992 pg;a 1- 123
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1 UNITED' STATES OF AMERICA .
I 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION !
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4 OFFICE OF STATE PROGRAMS 5 WORKSHOP ON 10 CFR PART-34 6 ***
7 (PUBLIC MEETING) 8 ***
9 Crown Sterling Suites 10 Salon B 11 -
4650 West Airport Freeway 12 Irving, Texas 13 14 Monday, November 16, 1992 15 16 The workshop met in open session, pursuant to 17 notice, at 1:30 p.m., Vandy Miller, Presiding Official.
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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I 2 1 NRC PARTICIPANTS:
2 3 VANDY L. MILLER, CHAIRMAN 4 DONALD COOL, MODERATOR 5 CHERYL 'IROTTIER, DISCUSSION LEADER 6 BRUCE CARRICO, NHSS 7 JACK HORNOR, REGION V 8 JIM MYERS, OSP 9 TOM RICH, NMSS 10 MARJORIE ROTHCHILD, OGC 11 12 AGREEMENT STATE MEMBERS:
13 14 TIM BONZER, COIDRADO 15 CINDY CARDWELL, TEXAS 16 MIKE CLEAVER, KENTUCKY 17 VICK COOPER, KANSAS 18 MARTHA DIBBLEE, OREGON 19 MIKE DUNN, TEXAS 20 DAVID FOGLE, TEXAS 21 BOB FREE, TEXAS 22 ROBERT FUNDERBURG, CALIFORNIA 23 BOB GOFF, MISSISSIPPI 24 MICHAEL E. MENRY, LOUISIANA 25 GEORGE L. KASYK, NEW YORK ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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t-3 l' AGREEMENT STATE MEMBERS, CONTINUED:
.2 3 RICK KELLEY, ARKANSAS 4 JOE KLINGER, ILLINOIS 5 MARGARET LOPEZ, NEW MEXICO 6 CORNELIUS MARYLAND, GEORGIA 7 JIM McNEES, ALABAMA 8 EDDIE NANNEY, TENNESSEE 9 CARL TRUMP, MARYLAND 10 ROBERT VERELLEN, WASHINGTON 11 -
12 MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC:
13 14 GARY AMMON, OKLAHOMA 15 ROY L. BAILEY, DELTA AIRLINES 16 BRUCE R. BALLARD, CONSOLIDATED, NDE, INC.
17 W. DENNIS CABE, DUKE POWER 18 ALLEN CASH, YUBA HEAT 19 RONALD SINN, ST. LOUIS TESTING LABS 20 HUGH K. HOWERTON, CHICAGO BRIDGE & IRON CO.
21 RICHARD LOWMAN, U.S. NAVY 22 JIM-MORGAN, TRANS WORLD AIRLINES-23 A.R. PATTERSON, BATON ROUGE,-LOUISIANA 24 CATHLEEN ROUGHAN, AMERSHAM CORPORATION 25 SHEARN SPENARD, AMERICAN AIRLINES ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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4 1 MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC, CONTINULD:
2 3 RONALD C. STEPHENS, DELTA AIRLINES 4 EMMANUAL TUAZON, CONSUMERS POWER CO.
S BOB WALKER, CANADA 6 TERRY WALLANDER, WISCONSIN INDUSTRIAL TESTING 7 ROGER WHITE, TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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1
- 1 PROCEEDINGS ,
l 2 (1:30 p.m.) )
3 MR. MILLER:- For those who do not know me, I'm 4 Vandy Miller, and I'm the Assistant Director for the 5 Agreement State Program of the Office of State Programs, -1 1
6 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
7 Now, this workshop is designed to discuss topics 8 related to an overall revision of 10 CFR Part 34. Now, j 9 before I tell you a little bit more about the workshop, I 10 vant you to kind of get a feel for who is here. And let me 11 just say this right off. We are going to become experts at 12 these workshops. You all have seen me more this year than 13 you have seen me in my four years at NRC State Programs.
14 And so I am just happy to be here today. We have heard an 15 awful lot about what needs to be done in Part 34. And I did 16 not know that they were going to schedule us in such close 17 quarters here today, but that might be good.
18 We are going to be in-good shape to be-able to 19 have some very fruitful discussions among your colleagues 20 sitting right close by you. What we hope to be able to do 21 is to give you a long break the first-time so that you will 22 be able to kind of get acquainted with.each other a little 23 bit more. In fact, some of the state people I have not seen 24 for-a little while, I have got to recollect your names.
25 There are those I haven't seen for quite a few years.
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i 1 But, anyway, then later we'll have another break -
2 - a short one, maybe 10 minutes. The first one will be 3 about 30 minutes. That will glia you a chance to kind of 4 get around and share some of the thoughts that you have on 5 your mind that you won't get a chance to put on the floor l
6 again. But let me just assure you that we have good l 7 representation here from the staff of the Nuclear Regulatory 8 Commission as well as from the various staffs of the 9 Agreement States.
10 From all indications here, we've got a good 11 turnout from the public, so to speak. And the reason why we 12 say the public -- they are probably licensees in the truest 13 sense, but we say the public because that means the public 14 can come to a meeting of this type.
15 Well, before I go further, let me just make sure 16 all of the staff from the various program offices are first 17 recognized. To my right is the modtrator rf this workshop 18 today, and that's Dr. Donald Cool,-who is the Branch Chief 19 in Research. And he will tell you more about that later.
20 But, I want the other NRC people to introduce themselves, 21 going around this side first.
22 MR. CARRICO: I'm Bruce Carrico, I'm from Material-23 Licensing, NMSS.
24 MS, ROTHCHILD: I'm Marjorie Rothchild, I'm in the 25 office of the General Counsel at NRC.
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7 1 MR. RICH: I'm Tom Rich, I'm with the Sealed 2 Source Safety Section, NMSS.
3 MR. MYERS: I'm Jim Myers, I work in the Office of 4 State Programs, State Agreements Program.
5 MS. TROTTIER: I'm Cheryl Trottier, I work for Don 6 Cool in the Office of Research.
7 MR. HORNER: I'm Jack Horner, and I'm Region V 8 State Agreewents Officer.
9 MR. MILLER: Okay. I think now we have covered 10 all of the people from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory 11 . Commission.
12 The next group we want to introduce, going down 13 here is my good friend from New York -- here from all the 14 Agreement States Now.
15 MR. KASYK: George Kasyk, New York State 16 Department of Labor.
17 MR. CLEAVER: Mike Cleaver, Kentucky Radiation 18 Control Program.
19 MR. FUNDERBURG: Bob Funderburg, California 20 Radiation Control.
21 MS. ROUGHAN: Ruth Roughan, Radiation Control 22 Licensing.
23 MR. HENRY: Mike Henry, Louisiana.
24 MR. COOPER: Vick Cooper. Energy _ Department.
25 MR. MARYLAND: Neal Maryland, Georgia Radioactive ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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8 1 Materials. program.
2 MR.' BONZER:
Tim Bonzer, State of-Colorado.
3 MR. KELLEY: Rick Kelley with the State that gave 4 you the President Elect.
6 MR. MILLER: Well, he better be more than the 6 Governor when he comes to Washington.
7 MS. CARDWELLt Cindy Cardwell, Texas, Bureau of 8 Radiation Cor. trol.
9 MR. FREE: Bob Free, Texas Bureau of Radiation 10 Control.
11 MS. LOPEZ: New Mexico Environment Department.
12 MR. FOGLE: David Fogle, Texas Department of 13 Health.
14 MR. KLINGER: Joe Klinger, Illinois Department of 15 Nuclear Safety. ~
16 MR. McNEES: Jim McNees, Alabama Radiation 17 Control.
18 MR. G0FF: Bob Goff, State of Mississippi, 19 MR. HAMMOND: Jerry Hammond, Oklahoma State.
26 MR. MILLER: Okay. I think we've got all the 21 states here. Is that correct?
22 MR. DUNN: Mike Dunn, State Department of Health.-
23 MR. VERELLEN: Bob Verellen, 5 7.e of Washington. >
l 24 MR. MILLER: Let me just remind you. That's what j 25 I was over there doing just a minute ago. This-report is l
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- 1 going to be very'important to us. You must speak loud, and
'2 you must speak clearly so-that we will be able to pick up 3 all the important points that you're going to be making 4 these next t'fo days. I will admit that it seems like it's 5 because the two speakers over there in one area, you should 6 be -- and I was listening, and you can hear it pretty well.
7 The only thing you have to do is when you speak, you 8 identify yourself and your state, And if you are public, 9 there will be a time for you to speak, and you can also tell 10 where you are coming from too, _ well. But, it is 11 important that you speak up, so everybody can get on the 12 record.
13 Now, let's hear from the public, starting on this 14 side over here. Please give your name.
15 MR. LOWMAN: My name is Dick Lowman, I'm with the 16 Navy.
17 MR. MORGAN: I'm Jim Morgan, I'm with Trans World
-18 Airlines.
19 MR. STEPHENS: I'm Ronald Stephens, I'm with Delta 20 Airlines.
21 MR. CASH: Allen Cash, Yuba Heat, in Tulsa, 22 Oklahoma.
23 MR. PATTERSON: Pat Pattersori, Retired.
24 MS. ROUGHAN: Cathleen Roughan, Amersham 25 Corporation.
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1 MR. CABE: Dennis Cabe, Duke Power. Company.
2- MR.-SPENARD:- Shearn Spenard, American= Airlines.
3 MR. WHITE: Roger White, Tennessee-Valley 4 Authority.
5 MR. WALLANDER: Terry Wallander, Wisconsin 6 Industrial Testing.
7 MR. BALLARD: Bruce Ballard, Consolidated NDE, 8 Inc.
9 MR. SINN: Ronald Sinn, St. Louis Testing 10 Laboratories.
11 MR. HoWERTON: Hugh Howerton, Chicago Bridge and 12 Iron Company.
13 MR. MILLER: That's about it. Now, just a few 14 opening remarks.
15 The Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff is 16 conducting this workshop primarily with the Agreement States 17 to discuss the provisions of a proposed overall revision of la its regulations concerning licensees for radiography and
-19 radiation safety requirements for radiographic operations.
20 This revision is needed to clarify certain requirements 21' which have_ frequently been misinterpreted by radiographer 22 licensees, and have resulted in a large number of -
23 enforcement rulings. The revision is also needed to clarify 24 some existing definitions, and to_ incorporate these 25 definitions, in order to bring NRC regulations more in line ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.=
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11 1 with regulations currently being used by other organizations 2 that regulate the radiography industry. And-you know we're
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3 talking primarily of the Agreement States.
4 Now, the objective of this workshop is to conduct 5 a roundtable discussion with representatives of the 6 Agreement States on the principal issues to be addressed in 7 the proposed revision of 10 CFR Part 34. The workshop will 8 be co-chaired by myself and the absent Dr. John Glenn, who 9 you all know. He's at the Region IV Headquarters, and he's-10 not able to be here. But he was announced in the Federal 11 Register, but he will not be here. I will chair this alone.
12 But, I have an able assistant, an able colleague in Don 13 Cool, who is really going to moderate this, because I am 14 going to go in the background as soon as I call on him, 15 because he's the one who is really going to make sure this 16 workshop goes.
17 Now, a transcript of the workshop will be 18 available for inspection and copying, for a fee, at the 19 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Public - Document Room, 2120 L 20 Street, Northwest, Lower Level, Washington, D.C. 20555 on 21 or about December the 17th, 1992.
22_ Now, one last thing._ Questions or statements from 23 attendees, other than-the participants, these are the 24 Agreement States, will be entertained as time permits. Now, 25 I can recall, we have had other workshops where several good l
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. 1 comments came'from several'of the licensees of the various 2 states. So, hopefully, we'll be able to get you on the 3 record in these two days. I don't see any reason why you 4 shouldn't be able to make some comments. So, what I'm 5 saying is that, if you have a statement you want to make, if 6 you see me, I will figure out an appropriate time for.you to 7 do that. If you have something that you want to add on a 8 point, I will always like to hear that right at the end of 9 the states and the NRC discussion.
10 Let's take, for an example, we're talking about 31 definitions, and at the end we say'okay, we've talked about 12 all the definitions, and somebody from the public says oh, 13 maybe there's just one more that you all should telk about.
14 I want to hear about that.
15 This is going to be a-friendly workshop. That's 16 all we conduct is friendly workshops, because I like to stay-
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17 in good with the states, and the states like to stay in good 18 with their licensees. And so good communications-all the 19 way around are going to help. That's what we're looking 20 for.-
21 So, with that said and done, let's call on none 22 other than Dr. Donald Cool, who will set the stage for this 23 workshop for the next two days.
24 MR. COOL: Well, Vandy, I'm not quite sure how to 25 respond to that introduction, but we'll get on with it ANN RILEY &- ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 anyway. We are very glad to be here. As vandy-said,.I'm
-2 Branch Chief of a branch called Radiation Protection and 3 Health Effects Branch, in the Office _of Nuclear Regulatory 4 Research.
5 VOICE: I have a suggestion, Don. Let_me 6 distribute the slides really quick.
7 MR. COOL: All right. We'll go back on the record 8 here. What we passed around are a set of viewgraphs that we 9 hope to use to help focus our discussions today. My branch,-
10 the Radiation Protection and Health Effects Branch, is 11 , responsible for a wide variety of issues in the radiation 12 protection area. It includes 10 CFR Part 20, which you all
-13 know and love. That's not the subject of today's 14 discussion. It includes the infamous policy on exemptions, 15 that little three-letter acronym we don't say anymore. We 16 are not going to talk about it today either. And then, a 17 variety of topics dealing with source byproduct discussion 18 of materials, one of those being the regulations that the 19 NRC has with regard to radiography. And it's been Well-20 known that we need to look at that-for quite a while. :There 21 have been another of things, as Vandy has-already mentioned,
-22 that have caused-us to say it's time to go back and 23 seriously look'at the regulations we have in place and try 24 to bring it up to date, not only with the current radiation =
25 protection standards, but with the reality of what's going ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 on out there. The commission has sort of been in one place, 2 and a lot of you have gone right on by us.
3 We are down here today withcut-a proposed rule in 4 hand, although we have an outline of how we think it might q
Our objective was not to como down and say-5 be formatted. !
6 here it is, what do you think, but, rather, to say_here are 7 the issues that we know about as a result of talking to a 8 lot of folks, and what we. received from the Agreement States l 1
9 over a year ago at the Agreement State meeting, lists that 10 were generated by some licensees, suppliers and otherwise.
11 And we tried to categorize those into groups. And what I 12 would hope would happen over the next two days is we will 13 work our way through those questions and issues -- that we-14 will come to some measure of agreement, hopefully, with ,
15 regard te an approach, which serves the purposes, provides 16 appropriate regulation, minimizes the impact, to the extent 17 we can, upon licensees, not only to have the words or the 18 approach, but more important, or as important,-at least to 19 me at this point, is the rationale behind why we take a
- 20 direction.
21 There are 40-somathing people _around.here, and I 22 dare say that there are_probably at least 10-plus-two 23 different opinions on any given subject here. And, as we_go 24 'and prepare the rulemaking, one of the things that's 25 incumbent upon my_ branch and_my staff, is to lay out very ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 thoroughly the rationale for why we're trying to do this.
2 So, equally important to me coming out of it is not only how 3 you would approach, and how you would recommend that we 4 approach the particular issues in questions and things that 5 you would include or things that you would exclude, and why. /
6 And that's why I'm eager to hear from each of you, getting 7 that input in on the record from the licensees, 8 manufacturers that we have around here. And I am really 9 pleased to see this Inrge number of different groups 10 represented who are actually out there on the line with 11 , dirty hands, if you will, on getting the job done. That's 12 the kind of experience that we need in order to make this a 13 good practical rule.
14 We have a rough agenda to use over the next couple 15 of days. It's not meant to constrain us in a predictable 16 way. We will talk very briefly about the purpose. -That's 17 going to take five minutes or so. Then we are going to 18 proceed to go into a discussion of the questions that were 19 listed in the Federal Register Notice that came out on 20 October 8th that announced this meeting. That had 10 4
21 particular topics ---range of topics which to address.
22 We'll work our wit down through each of those. And, as we 23 go through each or those, a number of what we believe are
.24 related issues that have come from other particular 25 contexts, so that we can keep particular areas together and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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16 1 work through those.
2 After we've had a chance'to completely go-through 3 that list, I would expect, at that point, we would be 4 sometime into tomorrow at least, to gauge how this-5 discussion might go. We have prepared a proposed table of 6
6 contents. I will explain a little bit more about how we got 7 there. And we will try to work our way through that 8 organization, once again, not so much to dictate a.
9 particular style, or to say that we're set on it, but to go 10 through, in a systematic fashion, on what's_ presently 11 contained in the regulation, how it might be reorganized, 12 how the particular topics that we've discussed, as we look 13 through those questions, would fit into that, so that when 14 we reach the bottom of that point, we will hopefully have 15 the basis of a functional rule that we can go back and
-16 prepare.
17 And then, lastly, we hope to provide some time for 18 other questions and discussions, if we haven't managed to 19 capture those already. We will go back and recheck those as 20 we finish that up on Wednesday morning.
21 The only time constraint-that we have here is that 22 we do need to be finished at Wednesday, lunchtime. I want 23 to let these discussions go as much as possible to explore 24 the issues, and the rationale for the issues. We will try 25 to keep things moving, so we'll keep a little bit of a-check-ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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- 1 on that alternatively. If welio, for'some strange reason, j 2- get finished early, we're finished early -- everybody is all !
3 done, so much the better.
4 The purpose of the revision. As Vandy has already 5 said, there have been a lot of things that have been 6 identified, in the problems -- interpretation difficulties, 7 people have had difficulties with with one time or another, 8 And these were sufficient that, in our mind, and in the mind 9 of the Commission, it was decided that the best approach 10 would be to go in and look ct a complete revision. This has 11 . a lot of the other NRC rules, over the course of time, and 12 is a large collection of band-aid additions and various and 13 sundry things that are attached on here and there to.take 14 care of particular problems. It's working, but I believe 15 there's a better way perhaps to go about doing it to put 16 things back into a logical construct.
17 And we have received input, as I said a little bit 18 earlier, from the Agreement States, at the meeting that was 19 held last year, in October. We received another long list, 20 and a number of you sent in ideas afterward, as a matter of 21 fact. My staff talked with some industry representatives.
22 We received their ideas of the sorts of things that ought to 23 be considered as we do a revision, as well as our own 24 licensing and inspection staff.
25 We have another impetus at'this point, which came ANN RILEY '& ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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la-1 in very-recently,'and that is a petition for rulemaking, 2' that has now been docketed as PR 34-4, from the 3 International Union of Operating Engineers. And that ,
4 petition specifically deals with the issue of two-man crews.
5 In particular, the Commission has been petitioned to amend 6 the regulation to put in the requirement for two-aan crews.
7 And we want to tain about that, because there are pros and 8 cons, there are major differences of opinion. And we would 9 like to see if we could generate a rationale why that is a 10 good idea to_do, not such a good idea to do, and the reasons 11 for that.
12 We are proposing a major revision to try and make 33 the NPC regulations more consistent with regulations that 14 are, in fact, a little more up-to-date, things that some of 15 the Agreement States, Texas and others, have been using, 16 that reflects the more recent thinking in Part-34, which 17 hasn't been done in a long time -- things that our friends 18' north of the border, in Canada, have been doing. And I am .
19 very pleased that we have someone from Canada here that can 20 help us with that.
21 We do anticipate a change in the structure of the .
22 rule, and, in fact, the preposal that we're going to lay out 13 for you is_thatLwe would take the structure that the 24 Commission used in 10 CFR.39 a couple of years ago Es a 25 potential model for how we might reorganize Part 34. That ANN -RlLEY & - ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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19 1 doesn't mean Part 39, which deals with well logging is a 2 perfect rule. But, it appeared to us, as we looked down 3 through a lot of the comments and questions and issues that 4 people were raising, that a large part of it had to do with 5 the format. And, as we looked at some of the other 6 regulations, particular Part 39, and we looked at how that 7 was approached, what sort of things were included, we came 8 to a conclusion preliminarily among ourselves, where we 9 could deal with 80, 90, maybe more percent of the kinds of 10 comments that we were seeing and some of the issues that 11 were being raised, if we went to an approach something like 12 Part 39, the way that that was dealt with. So, keep that in 13 the back of your mind as we go through these discussions, to 14 see whether that formula works or doesn't work.
15 The presentations, if you can call it that, that 16 we're going to be doing today, are going to be handled by 17 Cheryl Trottier. Cheryl is my inspection 1cader for the 18 Health Physics section, under whom this rulemaking is going 19 to be done. Don Nellis, who is the staff person who is 20 particularly esponsible for this, is someone that I think a 21 lot of you know. He has been around radiography and dealt 22 with radiography issues for a very long time.
23 Unfortunately, I am very sorry to report to you, Don was not 24 able to accompany us this week, he has some potentially very 25 serious medical problems at this point. The doctors are ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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20 1 attempting medications to deal with some rather high blood 2 pressure and potential heart concerns. So, I would like you 3 to keep him in mind there, while they're attempting to do 4 that.
5 We are going to go ahead and move forward with 6 these discussions. Ilopefully, he will be able to rejoin my 7 staff when these medical conditions have been straightened 8 out, and we will be the ones that actually write the rule.
9 At this point, I am going to stop talking at you. I am 10 going to let Cheryl begin with the first of the issues that 11 go in the Federal Register. And let's get on with our 12 business of defining what this rule is going to look like.
13 Cheryl?
14 MS. TROTTIER: Thank you.
15 One thing I want to say right away is I do not 16 want to be the only one talking for two days. So, I really 1 17 vant a lot of input. The primary purpose of this is to get 18 your feedback. I started on this about six months ago when 19 I came into this section. And, at that time, we had a long-20 list that was staff-generated. And we have incorporated 21 just about overy element that was in that list in these 22 slides today. And so, my hope is that what we will come 23 away from this meeting with is your ideas and your concerns 24 on how we ought to proceed with this rulemaking.
25 I'll tell you a little bit of the history of it.
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1 We had gone to Sacramento last fall, solicited input, of !
2 which I must admit I was not part of at that time, on how to 3 make changes to the rule. We took that input, we kind of 4 drafted up nome ideas, but we ran into some difficulty in 5 trying to figure out how to go forward with it. So, we 6 decided to back up, and that the best way to deal with this 7 was to actually have a workshop and get feedback, so that we 8 could get some decisions from other people on what kinds of 9 things would work and what kinds of things wouldn't work.
10 When I started working on this package, I happened 11 to notice that a lot of the suggestions were suggestions of 12 things that already existed in Part 39, which is primarily 13 why we came up with the idea well, let's try formatting it 14 like Part 39. If, in fact, a lot of things that would be 15 workable under Part 39 would be workable under Part 34, then 16 maybe, if nothing other than reorganizing the structure, it 17 will make it easier to make changes in the rule.
18 One of the things I noticed when I looked at Part 19 34 is that it looks like it's been pieced together over 20 time, and not necessarily has any order to it or rationale.
21 Even the sections don't necessarily make sense, they have 22 strange, bizarre titles that are fairly irrational. We came 23 up with a list of issues, and that's what'we published in 24 the Federal Register. So, that's what we have kind of 25 grouped these slides around, because we thought well, you've ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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22 1 already seen those questions. So, presumably, those are 2 things that you have been thinking about. And then the rest 3 of the things that were in that staff list you will see 4 interspersed with the primary issue.
5 So, the first primary issue is the issue of a C permanent radiographic installation. Now, what we put on 7 here is does it need to be defined. I guess the real 8 question here is does it need to be redefined? You know, it 9 is defined currently in the regulations. We have had soms 10 thoughts of various people that maybe we need to be more 11 strict in how we define what is a permanent radiographic 12 installation. I think part of the question that at least I 13 know we have dealt with in the NRC is what is meant by the 14 term " regularly used," you know, where radiography is 15 regularly performed.
16 So, I guess the real question then that I want to 17 pose to you and get feedback from you on is do the Agreement 18 States have a problem with the definition of a permanent 19 facility, an it exists now? And I noticed -- I only looked 20 at Texas. I looked at suggested state regs, and compared al them to ours. And it looks like you basically use the same 22 definition, at least from the suggested stato regs, as we 23 have in Part 34. So, my question that I would like to get 24 some feedback on is is that existing definition 25 satisfactory, or is there a problem? Do we need to put ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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I additional controls, do we have too many? You know, what j 2 kind of problems have you experienced in this area, or are 3^~
3 you not experiencing any problems?
4 MS. CARDWELL: Cheryl, it taight help to, if you 5 have available, read what the definition is in 34.
6 MS. TROTTIER: Sure, I can do that. I brought it 7 with me.
8 " Permanent radiographic installation means the 9 shielded installation or structure designed or intended for 10 radiography, and in which radiography is regularly 11 performed."
12 MS. CARDWELL: And there are no additional 13 requirements further on in the text of the rulo?
14 MS. TROTTIER: There are requirements upon having 15 bells, whistles and sirens, which is what I'll call it.
16 MS. CARDWELL: Is that how you control it?
17 MS. TROTTIER: I will bring up a situation that 18 occurred, under NRC jurisdiction, where a licensee had a 19 facility which was a room, which was a shielded room, which 20 did not have the controls. And they were using it es if it 21 were a temporary facility, and using the controls that are 22 described in the rule, in other words, posting, and all of 23 that. And it became a very contentious enforcement issue.
24 And so tha question was raised, in fact, it was raised as A
25 far as the Commission level oa how to resolve this problem.
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24 1 In fact, Bruce, isn't that how we got into changing Part 34, 2 in the first place?
3 MR. CARRICO: That's exactly right -- to make a 4 decision as to whether or not licensees should be cited 5 against the regulations. And there was some discussion that 6 the way the definition is, whether it be used and intended 7 for radiography, it's uncicar what that meant. And, 8 therefore, we really didn't have a foot to stand on, or NRC 9 didn't have a foot to stand on, citing them for not having 10 those bells and whistles installed in this.
11 MR. KLINGER: Bill Clinger from Illinois. What 12 we've dealt with is look at what a temporary job site is. A 13 temporary job site is defined as no more than 180 days. I 14 think, in Texas, we had 90 days.
15 MS. TROTTIER: 90 yes. You had 90.
16 MR. KLINGER: And that was based on the 17 reciprocity. So, if it was being used as a temporary job 18 site, and that's what you would refer to as making that 19 deciGion, then you would enforce the temporary job site 20 requirements. If they were performing this on a regular l
21 basis that is beyond that 90 days or 180 days, then that i
L 22 would be a permanent facility that would trigger several i
! 23 things. It would trigger -- the license would have to have 24 that site listed on it, and the requirements for a permanent 25 facility would be invoked.
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25 1 VOICE: So, one thing. This was at the licensee's 2 facility. It was the shooting cell at licensee's facility 3 that ho said was a storage location. The inspectors had 4 gone there, and he had boon doing radiation in the collo.
5 They looked at it. It becomes very hard to put timo framos 6 on when you have to have the additional safety features, 7 which is really the question. I think the HRC would say 8 that thoso additional safety featuros are important in tho 9 cell -- having those alarms to answer the door, and lot you 10 know.
11 -
So, it wasn't so much as to, you know, that he was 12 at some other location, but this was at his place of work, 13 and still thoro was that question of the definition being so 14 unclear as to not be able to proceed with the course of 15 action. But wo should not cite them for shooting in that 16 room, and not having those bells and whistles in there, as 17 they were not in the definition.
18 MS. TROTTIER: In Illinois, how do you determino 19 the number of days used? Are they to record the days that 20 they shoot?
21 VOICE: That's something that the inspector would 22 look at the record of where they had been using it at that 23 particular site.
24 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
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. 1 analysis -- a review of the utilization logs, to determine 2 how that --
3 MS. TROTTIER: So, it would show up there? okay.
4 VOICE: Would you require that to a licensee's 5 facility that has a cell there, and you walked in and they G had a shooting room? And you say, have you been operating 7 that room for over 180 days, then you've got to have the 8 bells and whistles? Or do you expect then to have the bells 9 and whistles immediately in the cell?
10 MR. KLINGER: As far as enforcing that 11 requirement, I think we counted that as 180 days. Then, you 12 know, if they have a large area in the back, and this 13 happens at large operations, they take some quick shots in 14 the back, if they don't do it on a regular basis, that's 15 fine. If it's a temporary job site, even though it's at a 16 permanent location, a permanent address was listed on the 17 license. It used to happen in Texas.
18 VOICE: You don't anticipate that=with the entry 19 control devices. I mean, you expect them to have the roped-20 off ares and things like that. And they should follow that.
21 When they're operating in a shielded room, should you expect 22 those belle. and whistles to be there immediately, as a back-23 up, so you can measure?
24 MR. COOL If it's a permanent site listed in that 25 license, then it has to.
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_1 VOICE: Well, okay. But, Isve heard two different 2 things here, or potentially two different ideas. One being 3- an idea that, if it is site-located, and addressed in their I 4 license, where they do shot, then it should be considered as j 5 a permanent facility. I have heard another possibility, q 6 which is sort of to define it in the reverse, which is to L l
7 define what you mean by a temporary job site. And that's 8 one of the things that we will get.to after a while -- is 9 what we may need for a definition for that, and say that if 10 it doesn't fit that category, then it is permanent. And -
- 11 . there are some pros and cons to that -- 90 days or 180 days, 12 whether those are continues or discontinuous, whether you
- 13 are operating in a shielded location.- suppose, for example, 14 you go and set up shop at a rather large industrial complex, 15 or TPA or otherwise, here or at one of your facilities -- do 16 -you know-because you are down here, and you are going to be -
17 operating here for the next six months, the radiographers 18 are going to be running all over the place, they are going 19- to be bringing new melds all the time.to be shooting, 20 chouldn't that sort of temporary, I-put-quotes around that.-
21 now, facility be established there, and have'those more 22 appropriate bells and-whistles access controls? Because you' ,
23- are going to'be operating there day in and day out, over-24'- some period of time. l 25 ~ I have heard a couple of different possibilities ,
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28 1 hero. I heard a little bit about what Illjnois is doing. I 2 would sort of like to hear what some of the other folks also 3 oither have done -- how they have approached it, as you run 4 into difficulties. We could moot with our licennees.
5 MS. TROTTIER: I've put up a second slido now.
6 This is a lint ot' permanent locations. Do most of you have 7 that in your rogs -- that the licensoo has to list what 8 facilities are called permanent locations?
9 So, that would almost solve that problem of going 10 out to a job site and staying there for a long period of 11 time.
12 HR. KLINGER: You can still havo -- and I don't 13 know how many other states are doing it -- I know we did in 14 Texas. You can still have a permanent location, just got a 15 licence, have a shooting bay, bells and whistloo and all 16 that, and still have someono have a portion -- just take 17 some shots in the back.
18 MR. COOL: May I intorjoct here. For purposes of 19 our tranneript, when we start having people jump in, would 20 you please give mo your name and where you are. I know who 21 you are, but when we go back to road the transcript, it's 22 going to be tough to koop track of it if we don't koop that 23 information in there, please.
24 MS. CARDWELL: Oh, you want to know who I am?
25 Cindy Cardwell from Texas.
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. 1 MR. CARRICO: This is Bruce carrico. Maybe I can 2 pose a question. It would be great that at a licensee's 3 facility, and he has a shooting bay, that he should have 4 thone bells and whistles regardless of how often he might be 5 shooting in that cell. In other words, once a month is not 6 important, whether it's once a day. Still, the cell that 7 he's bring material in to -- that they should have the 8 safety features.
9 MS. TROTTIER: I don't think there is agreement 10 there on that.
11 . MR. McNEES: Jim McNees from Alabama. First of 12 all, if you are going to put concrete walls in_there, they-13 might try to shoot them there.
14 MS. TROTTIER: That's part of the question.
15 MR. KLINGER: We could spend hours on that. You 16 have to look back at the utilization log, and they used them 17 for so many days in the previous calendar year. Another 18_ aspect of why have the entryLdescription to the bells and 19 whistles is that they might be used to read other 20 requirements. Like I petitioned for a two-man' crew -- the 21 only two person crew has to be there on a-temporary job-22 site. You. den't have to have it.in the permanent site for 23 reasons defined. Also, the need for constant surveillance 24 of the high radiation areas. You have-got the requirements 25 that they will have:toL-rewrite to stand on guard at the ANN .RILEY & - ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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t 30 1 door. <
2 MR. CARRICO: If you don't lock the door, you 3 still have them.
4 MR. XLINGER: It can impact on whether -- I don't 5 see any way the inspector can-define it for sure as to what ,
6 it is. You can see how many days they used it.
7 MR. CARRICO: My thought was perhaps you could 8 define the term of restricting, 16.ssening the access 9 restrictions to the area you've got in the cell, so that 10 people can work around it. Your radiographer'would have a 11 very wide type thing, as you would at a temporary job site.
12 so, you intention is to allow greater access, and reduce the i 13 radiation levels onsite that you're shooting in. And that's 14 kind of leading -- that's why you're using it, and 15 therefore, it must be a cell, and you should have them.along 16 wit hit. 1 17 MR. COOL: I guess I have a hard time with saying,-
18 you-know, if you say 180 days ---you can use it for-180 -
19 days, why is 179 -- I mean, it's the alarm that is 20 important. There is a tendency to be there not in a 21 situation.
22 MR. FUNDERBURGt- Bob Funderburg from California.-
23 Joe, I was going to ask-you a question. California lists 24 -the permanent facility on the license, and we get a 25 description of the facility to include. Now, if you don't ANN RlLEY:&" ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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31 1 do that, how do you know that they've got the bells unless 2 you inspect them? It seems to be clarified or better when 3 you have it listed under the license. Then there's no 4 questica that's when the inspector goes out.
5 I was going to ask -- California doesn't have the 6 two-man rule yet. Do you require two-man rules for a 7 permanent facility?
8 MR. KLINGER: That's something that we will be 9 proposing pretty soon -- two-man crews only for field 10 locations, and not for a permanent site. Right now it's --
4 11 12 MR. COOL: And your rationale for that is what?
13 MR. KLINGER: Case one, is he becomes ill, has a 14 heart attack, somebody else is there who is fully-qualified 15 to handle the sources and take over the operation?
16 MR. COOL: I was thinking more in terms of you 17 reason for saying that it wasn't necessary in a permanent 18 facility was, I assume, because were assuming that a 19 permanent facility had more of these bells and whistles.
4 20 We have a member of the public, one of the 21 licensees -- a couple of them who would like to put in 22 something. I am going to stop for a moment to recognize 23 them, and see what input they would have, and then we'll go -
24 back to the states.
25 MR. TUAZON: My name is Manny Tuazon, with the ANN PILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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32 1 Consumers Power Company, Jackson, Michigan. And you give us 2 an inspector to inspect our facilities -- all permanent 3 facilities. Our operating and emergency procedures define 4 what a permanent facility is. When the inspector comes to 5 our facility, he will be sure that what we stated on the 6 license really works. For instance, the alarm. He checks 7 to be sure that this is working. Then he checks that the 8 light, which is five seconds interval, when the bell is on 9 it is really working. This is so because in our license we 10 shall define this as a permanent facility.
11 The thing that we are not too sure of is the term 12 regularly used. Okay? Now, that is subject to 13 interpretation -- rigorousness. And we are a little bit 14 lost when you say regularly used, because we have several 15 facilities in the state of Michigan who operate radioghaphic 16 operations. Now, this is a unique area in the state, 17 because this is where we have the lights, we have the alarm, 18 and this is what was submitted to the NRC, and we have 19 reviewed and approved it. So, for us, a permanent facility 20 is what we have stated in the license, the lights, the 21- alarm, and in this instance, when they come and inspect us, 22 we say, Mr. NRC, this is our permanent facility.
23 MR. CARRICO: This is Bruce Carrico again. I 24 would like to back up a little bit. I ald like to support 25 the action that initiated this whole thing by the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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33 1 Commission. This was not despite the noises. The i
2 inspectors had gone out and seen this and seen that they 3 were periodically using the cell, and told them to stop 4 doing it -- they need to get the license amended, and they 5 continued to do it. There were other things that went on 6 that escalated this whole thing.
7 But, here is the situation where -- and I guess 8 it's one of the thin 7s that came up -- was, can we cite this 9 licensee for operating in a permanent radiographic cell 10 without having the alarms and whistles? This was regularly 11 used. It wasn't in his licerse. The NRC licensing people 12 had no idea that it was there. So -- but it came down that 13 it was regularly used and intended for radiography. Those 14 two terms caused some questions.
15 MS. DIBBLEE: I'm Martha Dibblee from Oregon. It 16 seems to me that we ought to be addressing the specific 17 health and safety issues around radiography. Periodically 18 we have radiographers who can't get a piece into their cell.
19 And so they will make their site, raybe it's their backyard, 20 or wherever it happened to be -- it's still the address 21 that's on the license. But, they make it into a field site.
22 And Oregon has not had a problem with this. Our 23 radiographers either notify us when something unusual like 24 this_is happening. But, we have had no health and safety 25 issues regarding this type of radiography, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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34 1 I think that, in the case that you're talking
? about where you have a cell that doesn't have the alarms on 3 it -- as long as it is treated as a field site, and as long 4 as all the barricades and the other measurements and such 5 are put up, that there should not be a finding.
6 MR. COOL: That would be true across the board. I 7 mean, I think what you're saying to me is that then there's 8 no need for bells and whistles, as long as you have the 9 temporary job site precautions there.
10 MS. DIBBLEE: I think that's the way the 11 regulations read now, isn't it?
12 MR. COOL: Well, my impression in talking to 13 people is that is not the intention. The intention of using 14 that language was to allow for situations where a company 15 might go to a temporary job site -- let's say he's working 16 in an irradiator, and has to be working in their cell.
17 Well, that's a shoot room, but it's not regularly used for 18 radiography. It's not intended for radiography, it's 19 intended for radiation. The intent was to have redundant 20 safety features. That was the intent. My belief was that 21 the intent was to have redundant safety features.
22 MS. DIBBLEE: But, the intent for the requirements 23 .for field radiography also was in place of the permanent 24 signs and bells and whistles and such. And I think that if 25 an inspector were to find, for example, in a radiator cell, ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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35 ;
. 1 or something like, where obviously there was adequate 2 shielding, but as long as the radiographer can shcw that the
-3 levels to unrestricted areas don't exceed what-the limits i 4 are, there shouldn't be an issue. '
5 MS. TROTTIER: See, I believe that in this 6 particular cace what we had was a situation where a licensee ;
1 7 had a room, and yet decided not to list it on their license 8 as a facility. And it's almost the implication that if you 9 list it on the license of the facility you have to have the 10 whistles and sirens, so if you just don't list it on the ,
11 . license; but, in fact, by every definition, it is'what it '
12 is, then ycu -- you know, it's almost as if it is a way to 13 avoid complying with the regulations. I think that that's 14 .the concern.
15- MS. DIBBLEE: But, as long as they're authorized 16 for temporary job sites, I don't see-a problem with that.
17 And I think the authorization is for the procedures for the 18 temporary job sites is perhaps the issue.
19 MR. KASYK: George Kasyk, New York State 20 ' Department of Labor. I think there is another issue here '
t-21 about permanent location'which we have seen that people,
-22 since-we do tho fees for licenses,-trying to set up a 23 permanent location and then converting to an actual. place of' 24 _ business -- solicit contracts, jobs from the locations. -So, 25 essentially,.it becomes another installation,-in-our term,'a d
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36 1 place of business. Now, it's very difficult to prevent it 2 from happening. If you don't watch them all the time, you 3 don't know what they are doing at these permanent locations.
4 And I have seen licenses which have 40 or 50 or 60 permanent 5 locations all over the place. How are you going to control 6 it? That's number one.
7 Number two, if our licensee has a room which looks 8 like a shielded room, we demand that, if all the controls 9 are there, we feel that, if it looks like a duck, it swims 10 like a duck, it is a duck. It is a control room, and we 11 will call it a control room. If you don't want it, you have 12 to weld the doors or seal it off, period.
13 HR. LOWMAN: We operate in a lot of the different 14 states obviously. The Navy had 45 licensees in many of the 15 states around the country. We believe strongly in the iden 16 that we have Revision Two of the Reg Guide 10.6 that talks 17 about the intent of a permanent facility. In there it talks 18 about not how many days of the year you use it, but what it P
19 was intended to be in the first place. You would hurt us 20 very badly to have a time limit put on in the Navy, because 21 we may have activities that don't work for six or seven 22 months, and then would have work because of the nature of 23 what we do. And so, we really like the idea of going back 24 and having a look at Reg Guios 10.6 or Rev. Two, and the 25 definition in there.
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37 1 In the Navy, what we require is anybody who gets a 2 license -- we have a master materials license through the 3 NRC, and it is administered in Region II, laying dow.)
4 specific rules and regulations, in Region II we do inspect 5 our own activities and state activities. We do require at 6 a temporary job site, because, if you don't have it in your 7 license as a permanent facility, whether you operate one day 8 or 181 days, if it is not listed in there as a permanent 9 facility, it is considered to be a field shop or a temporary 10 job site no matter where it is. And with the location of 11 the room, if the room has 76 inches of concrete around it it 12 doesn't matter, it is still a temporary job site. But, it 13 doesn't meet the definition in the Reg Guide of a permanent 14 facility.
15 We do -- when it is outside of a permanent job 16 site, the Navy presently requires that a minimum of a two-17 man crew at a field shop for the reasons stated earlier by 18 another gentleman.
19 MR COOL: Ist me see if I can clarify just a 20 little bit then. So, from your master materials license 21 perspective, you would take the viewpoint that anything done 22 outside of where you may define would be a temporary field 23 site, you would not apply what we are calling bells and 24 whistles to those access controls and alarms, even if yt.,u 25 were operating there for half of the time of the year, every.
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i 58 1 other day or every other month?
2 MR. MWMAN: That's correct, because, in our view, 2 you have had have petitioned in your license request, in 4 this case your Navy radioactive material permit requent, to 5 have this facility looked at by us to be considered to be a 6 permanent facility. This was true back in the old days in 7 our tenders in our shipyard.
6 MR. C001,: How *'1en do you go about looking at 9 whether your various sub-licensees on your tenders really 10 ought to put it on their license? And how do you -- I don't 11 know any other term than -- what handle do you have to say, 12 hoy, this really ought to be part of your sub-license?
13 MR. MWMAN: Because of the nature of the way 14 they're constructed, with the exception of maybe five or six 15 of the older ones, they all have -- one or the other will 16 have a permanent facility, unless something goes wrong.
17 How, if something goes wrong -- if one of the whistles or 18 sirens breaks down or bells breaks down, or there's a 19 degradation of the shielding, for whatever reason -- we have 20 a facility in Gram -- they recently had a typhoon in Guam.
21 The concern was for the degradation of the shielding --
22 whether or not it did structural damage to the building.
23 That building could no longer be considered to be a 24 permanent facility until they could prove to us that that 25 facility had not suffered-structural damage. It could ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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39 1 certainly be a temporary facility, but then they would have 2 to treat it as a temporary facility or a field s,ite, and act 3 accordingly, and provide the initial radiographer or 4 radiographers, whatever we have.
5 MS. CARDWELL Cindy Cardwell, Texas. It sounds 6 like we're tossing around two different things. A permanent ;
7 facility, or use site, which could be -- is what's listed on 8 the license in our case, which -- there's a specification 9 for time, whether that's relevant or not, but that it's, as 10 George said, it's intended as a place of business, 11 businesses advertising and centracting from their. That's a 12 use site. It has to do with other parts of the rules 13 concerning where records have to be stored and-uhat not, 14 versus a permanent installation, which it sounds like it's 15 more what we're talking about with the concrete walls, the 1G bay or buffer that has the controls on it.
17 Now, permanent facility could have permanent 18 installations in it which are required to have all the bello 19 and whistles, and also proposed radiography, or tenporary 20 radiography out back somewhere, so, it sounds as if 21 sometimes we are mixing these two things.
22 MS. TRoTTIER: I think we're always talking about 23 the installation. We are always talking about the 24 installation, not the license or address of the license 25 holder, but the actual thing that is defined in the ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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40 1 regulation as a permanent radiographic installation.
2 MS. CARDWELL: Okay. Well, our definition refers 3 to -- when it talks about a time limit, how often you are 4 going to use it, it's talking about the place of business, 5 the facility, not the cell.
6 MS. TROTTIER: In other words, if they build a 7 cell, they puts the whistles, bells and sirens in the cell?
8 MS. CARDWELL: They're required to have it on.
9 MR. KASYK: George Kasyk, New York Department of 10 Labor. I think we have this same problem, because our 11 definition of a radiography company doing business is called 12 an installation. The NRC calls these places facilities.
13 Sos, maybe it would be better to use a different term.
14 Maybe use cell or shielded room, which would be more 15 conforming to its use. And installation has a broad aspect 16 to its interpretation.
17 MS. TROTTIER: Yes.
18 MS. DIBBLEE: Martha Dibblee, Oregon. Again, 19 . Oregon has, I would guess, I would call it a 30-day rule.
20 We say that if anybody is in a specific location doing 21 radiography, we -- and that they can define it as shielded 22 room radiography, the 30-day rule then holds. So, in other 23 words, it's a much more restricted rule than some of the 24 others that you have. We have no rule whatsoever for any 25 other kind of radiography.
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41
- 1 But, it seems to me that shielded room radiography 2 has boon designed for a safety purpose, so that there 3 doesn't need to be as many field actiorts taken to ensure 4 that the beam doesn't get out. I also think shielded room 5 radiography should have some definitions about caps, about 6 what is above it, to prevent sky shine, other sorts of 7 safety features that we haven't even addressed here. And I 8 think I would like to know the feelings or some of the 9 people about that, because we do require walls of a certain i
10 thickness and a certain density of concrete and certain 11 types of standards to meet these rooms, especially if you 12 are using something like cobalt in these rooms.
13 MR. BALLARD: Bruce Ballard, New Jersey licensee.
14 I think what's more important in these regulations is intent 15 rather than timeframe. I think it's more important what you 16 intend to do in this room rather than how often you may do 17 it. If it's intention, whether there are other intentions 18 of storage -- but, if you intend to do radiography in a 19 shielded room, I don't think it matters how often you intend' 20 to do it.
21 MS. TROTTIER: But it should have bells, whistles 22 and sirens?
23 MR. BALLARD: Yes.
24 MS. ROUGHAN: Kate Roughan, Amersham Corporation.
25 I would like to follow-up on Martha's comments. We talk ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.-
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42 1 about licensees with the licenses in the various states and 2 different regional offices with the NRC -- one of the things 3 we've noted is that there's no consistency between what's 4 required for a permanent installation and what's the 5 radiation level on the outside, and what's the radiation 6 level in the room, and what additional controls you may 7 need, in terms of going in and out of the room.
8 Some states and some regional offices require 9 quality assurance to come in to a facility, or working with 10 the physicians to provide operational controls. There are 11 additional requirements on that current facility, but there 12 should be consistency of the current facility. They should 13 meet the standard requirements.
14 MS. TROTTIER: Well, I think that's something we 2.5 can achieve in this revision. And one of the reasons that 16 it's before you is because, of this appearance of a variety 17 of ways of interpretation.
18 MR. COOL: Let me throw out a question for you 19 that was raised .iere just a minute ago. The comment was 20 made t.at it's more important what the intent is, which, if 21 you fo'llow that down its logical track, would say, if you 22 const):ucted a shielded enclosure with new radiography -- and 23 I would assume that was sort of irrespective of where you 24 might do that. If you did it at a site you were going to be 25 at a number of days, it would be constructed for the purpose ANN F.iLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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43 1 of providing shielding. And if I were to follow that logic, 2 that would be a permanent radiography facility. And if you 3 follow the logical construct, it would require the alarms 4 and the access controls. Would that be counterproductivo?
5 If you had a requiremont like that, would that tend to then 6 drive licenseos perhaps to say I am not going to do that 7 because then I have to add those other lovoin of requirement 8 so that they wouldn't orect any sort of chielding?
9 Thoughts? I just -- it's a question.
10 MR. McHEES: From Alabama. Midnight Boiler Works 11 is a company that, in order to keep down the radiation-12 levels for other workers work, they had an aron with stool 13 platos to be used. If we are not careful, we are going to 14 got in a situation where they wouldn't put any shielding 15 there to avoid being a shielded room.
16 MS. TROTTIER: In other words, you think by 17 requiring all of the access controls, people will try to not 10 use the shielded coll?
19 VOICE: They will move in to the backyard and ropo 20 it off.
21 MS. CARDWELL: Cindy Cardwell, Texas. We have two 22 different definitions, one for a permanent radiographic 23 installation and one for shielded room radiography, which 24 may soom redundant unti'.,you got into more of our other 25 requirements, which we might need to koop in mind here.
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44 1 Two-man crews are not required at permanent radiographic 2 installations which, by our definition, don't have any 3 timeline. It just says intended for radiography and where 4 it is performed, and that they must have the bella and 5 whistles on it. A shielded room, you have to have a two-6 man crew.
7 MS. TROTTIER: A shielded room? In other words, a 8 shielded room doesn't have the access?
9 MS. CARDWELL: It doesn't have the access 10 controls. And it could be something like Jim just said. It 11 could be part of an old shed out back that's got some 12 shielding there, but it still doesn't have the bells and 13 whistles. And so it might tie into some of this further 14 discussion on the two-man crew.
15 MR. COOL: I still see several possibilities sort 16 of hanging out here. We've had some very interesting 17 discussion. I am not sure we've coalesced in any direction 18 yet. It would like perhaps, Cheryl, if you agree, perhaps 19 we could just go around with each of the states. Very 20 briefly gisa us a viewpoint of how they would define it. If j 21 it's how you do it now, fine, or how you might change it.
22 So, the question -- I'll say it again and give you time to i
23 think about it. The question is, I start with a clean sheet 24 of paper on the bottom of this pad. I am going to write 25 this definition for when an access controls alarm and sirens ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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P 45 i
. 1 should be in place. What things would you include? What 2 items? That it's shielded? That it's used X-number of 3 days? Whatever comes -- which combination of things would 4 you require for access controls?
5 MS. TROTTIER: Now, before they answer, I think 6 you should put an "or" in there. Or would you leave it up 7 to the licensee's discretion? Which I think a lot of them 8 do.
9 MR. COOL All right. Is everybody cicar about 10 the question? Just sort of nod up and down or yes or no.
11 MR. KASYK George Kasyk. I think this is kind of 12 -- a little bit overwhelming. I think we should request 13 from each state a written submission, because we can think 14 about it a little more clearly. I think it will be better 15 requested then reading it.
16 MR. COOL: Let me -- I'll make two comments I 17 guess. First, I would like to go around and get an idea of 18 what you think so that I -- everyone can hear those, because 19 then we may get a little more clarified discussion. We will 20 _ accept written inputs and thoughts from any of you on any of 21 the topics that we talk about for this two-day session until 22 say the first week of December or so. When we get closer to 23 the end, we will define a time when you can go back and 24 think hey, now that we've gone through the discussion, I 25 thought about on the flight home, hey, here's this great ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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46 1 idea that didn't come up, and write it down and send it to 2 us. But, I would like to see if we can't hear, in this 3 room, and get some idea of where the majority of the i
4 participants -- where the ma'jority of the Agreement States 5 would see a set of requirements falling out. So, I would 6 like to go ahead and go around the room.
7 Is there another question before we go around the 8 room?
9 MR. MARYLAND: Heal Maryland, with the State of 10 Georgia. I guess a question that I have, as far as --
11 typically, I always thought that a shooting cell would use a 12 higher activity source, instead of for a job site. In our 13 licensing guide, if they usc more than X-number activity of 14 iridium let's say, they would have to provide us with 15 procedures, if they'ra going to do that at a temporary job 16 site. But, for a permanent shooting cell, I mean, if they 17 vere licensed for a hotter activity, they could use it in a 18 shooting coll. And I don't see how that could be a 19 violation, as far as the way NRC rules are stated right now.
20 And the only way you are going to get around that is to 21 either find where the temporary job site is or what e 22 permanent job site is in a little more detail. And I don't 23 see where the health and safety problera comes out of there 24 either. I mean, the intent of the rule -- what is the 25 intent of the rule for a permanent shooting cell?
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. 1 MS.'CARDWELL: Do you want us to jump in? +
2 MR. COOL: I think we have opened up a fruitful 3 line of discussion,-so I am going to let you jump in for a 4 minute or two, because this may help define what it is that 5 we're actually trying to do. Because, in fact, when we get 6 done, not only do we need that list of thing that maybe a 7 more detailed definition, that may be in fact what comes out 8 of this, but also what is the health and safety basis?
9 I would like to believe somehow, if we are all of 10 pule motives, and that what we're attempting to do is to 11 protect individua.ls from over-exposing themselves.
12 MR. KLINGER: Or the general public.
13 MR. COOL: Or the general public or anyone else.
14 So, let's throw that around a little bit.
15 MS. CARDWELL: I'll jump in. Cindy Cardwell.
16 After a quick consensus, we figured ours is working pretty 17 well. And the reasons behind what we have done, which is 18 what I said earlier with the two definitions of the 19 permanent radiographic installation, which requires you put 20 bells and whistles in the shielded room, which doesn't 21 necessarily require that, but then requires a two-man crew 22 to-operate at that shielded facility. The rules go further, 23 in that they don't require a permanent installation. It's 24 up to the licensee's discretion which ones of those they-25 want to use, knowing full well that they only need one ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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48 1- person in a permanent radiographic installation, and have a 2 two-man crew for shielded radiography. But, by doing that, 3 since we don't require all of them to be permanent with the 4 bells and whistles, then we don't encourage the licensee 5 trying to get around that by using a shielded room.
6 Therefore, by allowing the shielded room with the two-man 7 crew, we have at least, from a health physics standpoint, we 8 have got them using some shielding. That's better than 9 nothing at all, or trying to get around all that. So, if we 10 have got the two-man crew, therefore, taking care of what we 11 have got being a safety problem, an unshielded source would 12 still be there, if being incapacitated in some way or it is 13 just left there. It would give the licensee options, and 14 hopefully taking care of the health physics and safety 15 aspects in both ways. But it does require two definitions, 16 with the resulting rules from that two-man crew.
17 MR. COOL: What you've done is allow the licensee 18 to trade-off hardware for software.
19 MS. CARDWELL: Bodyware.
20 MR. COOL: Bodyware, yes.
21 MS. CARDWELL: Bodyware.
22 MR. COOL: -Bodyware for software.
23 MR. FREE: Bob Free, Texas. We monitor incidents 24 that are reported to us by radiography licensees. In the 25 pant two years, we have had about 90 incidents reported, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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49 1 over-exposure incidents, and it includes about six 2 malfunction problems. And there have only been-two shielded 3 room and permanent radiographic installation incidents 4 reported to us. And, in those two instances, the 5 radiographer chose to ignore or had defeated the safety 6 process with room plates at those permanent radiographic 7 installations. So, in view of the carelessness, on the part 8 of the radiographers, we feel like our rule is working very 9 well, because of the low number of incidents that are 10 reported in those locations.
11 -
MR. FOGLE: David Fogle from the State of Texas.
12 I would like to ask about something Cindy has already said, 13 and that is that, in our revisions of Part 31, we have 14 removed the word regularly. I think that's probably the 15 answer to this gentleman's concern.
16 HR. COOL: Could you read for us your definition, 17 so everybody would have the exact same set of words you are 18 operating under.
19 MR. FOGLE: The current or the revised Part 31?
20 The revised? The one I just spoke about?
21 MR. COOL: Yes. Your revised one that you are 22 referring to.
23 MR. FOGLE: Sure. "The permanent radiographic ,
24 installation means the installation or structure, design or 25 intended to perform enclosed radiography, and in which ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd. !
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i 50 1 radiography is performed. " So, we've removed -- basically 2 we've removed the word " regularly."
3 MR. COOL: . And let me then ask what your 4 definition then is for a shielded room, so that we've got 5 both halves of that definition.
6 MS. CARDWELL: Shielded room radiography means 7 industrial radiography conducted in a room shielded so 8 radiation levels at every location on the exterior meet the 9 limitations specified in 21105.
10 MS. TROTTIER: It is the only control that they 11 have two people there?
12 MS. CARDWELL: Yes.
13 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
14 MS. CARDWELL: Now, that's not in the definition, 15 but that needs to be understood further in the rule, when we 16 start talking about two-man crews, and in which situations 17 are there two people required.
18 MR. COOL: All right.
19 MR. CABE: Mr. Cabe, North Carolina / South Carolina 20 licensee. Is the intent to protect the radiographer using 21 the cell in having these bells and whistles -- to keep him 22 from entering an area where he has cranked out a source and 23 then has left it, and the fact that he hasn't cranked it 24 back in, and goes over and opens some doors, and has an 25 audible alarm in a high radiation area? It seems like we're ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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d 51 1 adding more and more in taking him from himself; whereas, if 2 he's making the proper radiation surveys and using the 3 survey equipment, which _ we've already got room for to take 4 care of. We are adding more and more self-protection, or 5 trying to protect him from himself it looks like to me.
6 Our situation is we have r,torage facilities that 7 are used in -- they are defining some type of a huge door 8 where you can bring la valve on iodide and a valve down on a 9 table and do radiography. And it also selves as the storage 10 area. It is not, as such, a permanent radiographic 11 facility, but it is used for radiography. The main purpose 12 of that facility is to store those sour as, and there is a 13 lot of access. And the only way by there when you are doing 14 radiography, is to walk past the radiography himself. If 15 you walked in to the facility, the fact that it's got a 16 crank bolt on the wall, you've got a tunnel going in.to the 17 room for your tubes, it will look very much like a permanent 18 radiographic facility. It is not used for day-to-day 19 radiographic work.
20 And the situation where you've got two 21 radiographers, or two people, the question was brought up 22 just in conversation. Were we talking about two 23 radiographers, or-are we talking about a radiographer and an 24 assistant? Are we talking about two -- are we talking about 25 a radiographer and a helper? -Are we going to hold it-to an ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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52 1 assistant that can crank the source in if the radiographer 2 passes out?
3 But, to me, we are trying to ask a~ lot of 4 questions at one time.
5 MS. CARDWELL: Cheryl, does Part 34 have a 6 definition of shielded room?
7 MS. TROTTIER: No. Only permanent radiographic 8 installation.
9 MS. CARDWELL: So, as it stands now, it is 10 either/or?
11 MS. TROTTIER: Right.
12 MS. CARDWELL: There's no provision for this 13 other?
14 MS. TROTTIER: That's right.
15 MR. FOGLE: To me, a permanent radiographic 16 facility is just like the gentleman-from New York said. I 17 went out and went in the business and set up ABC x-ray 18 Company. I've-got a radiography facility here that -- if 19 you want to bring your parts here, I will radiograph them.
20 I have a permanent radiographic facility. I have built it.
21' I have shielded it with the regulations.- And if you license 22 me-to operate it as a permanent radiographic facility, then 23 I'll put the bells and whistles on there to keep my one 24 radiographer from injuring himself because he forgets to 25 crank the source in.
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- 1 MR. CASil It seems I remember 20 years _ago,~when 2 the permanent facility was so that you could put something 3 in there and crank out the source or radiate itiand go off 4- and leave it. And that was the whole purpose, to protect-5 the general public from radiation, without anybody doing 6 that. I would like to see more discussion on George's 7 question. What is the intent of the regulation?
8 MR. MARYLAND: Neal Maryland, from the State of 9 Georgia. I kind of' agree with the gentleman over there.
10 Our licensing guido pretty much states a shooting cell is a 11 room where, you know, if they wanted instead of a hundred 12 curie iridium source, they could use 200 in the cell, or 13 they could leave or keep it locked and come back five-or six 14 minutes later, whatever. And we also have a two-man crew 15 for a temporary job site. But, for.a shooting cell, only 16 one person has to be there. And --
17 MS. TROTTIER:- With bells, whistles and sirens?
18 MR. MARYLAND: Oh, yes.. Yes.- For a shooting 19 cell.
20 MR. COOL: -Shielded to-dose --'to-rate values?-
21- MR. MARYLAND: Yes. So, I really don't see the 22 problem with it. I mean, I would prefer, you know, if it
- 23 was considered a temporary job site, that there-was a brick-24 wall there, you know. _What's-the difference.'from_him-doing 25 radiographs in the back of his facility, if he had a large--
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54 1 area facility in cranking the source out? Would NRC 2 consider that to be a problem to be defined as a temporary 3 job site? Because they have bricks up and a building set 4 up. I would prefer that. To me, it would be safe. -We have 5 got to get back to health and safety. Is it more of a-6 problem?
7 MR. COOL: I've got a couple of more hands now.
8 Yes?
9 MR. HENRY: Mike Henry, Louisiana.
10 To be frank about it, I think that no one ever got 11 unintentionally exposed while they were using a survey meter 12 properly. I don't really care about all this permanent 13 stuff. In our regs, we -- it goes on to say that we will -
14 - any entrance to a high-radiation area shall be equipped 15 with these bells and whistles, or with positive control over 16 each individual entry. I am not too sure about how you 17 define this positive control. But, I figure, if a guy is 18 standing there looking at it, and he-tells you not to come 19 through this door, that's pretty positive. So, actually, we 20 don't usually find these whistles and bells on our cells, 21 and I don't think they're necessary to start with if you use 22 your survey meter like you are supposed to.
23 As far as the two-man crew thing, now you start 24 getting confused about what's permanent and what's shielded, 25 because we have a lot of permanent installations that look ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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55 1 like temporary job sites. Muut fab yards have a repair 2 yard. Okay? It's a little area where all repairs are made, 3 and they are going to do radiography there every day of the 4 world. It looks like a temporary job site, but it's 5 permanent from what you guys are talking about.
6 MS. TROTTIER: But it's not shielded.
7 MR. HENRY: Now, if it is on the licensee's 8 cremises, then we will allow a one-man crew, because we 9 assume -- as a matter of fact, we don't assume in 10 inspections, we determine that the radiation safety officer 11 . is available to that one-man crew. We don't base any of our 12 opinions on lights and bells, we base it on people who's 13 present, again, getting back to your intent.
14 MS. DIBBLEE: You also should consider what DOT 15 now has as regulations for emergency notification. And, I 16 think, if you follow that, you will find that DOT's 17 emergency notification implies that a two-man crew out 18 wherever would be prudent and probably required. And we-19 have been able to very easily require two-man crews.
20 Because one person has to stay with the equipment, the other 21 person has to go and make the emergency notification. So, 22 from that standpoint, that's another piece of this whole 23 procedure here.-
24 MS. CARDWELL: It sounds as if -- Cindy Cardwell.
25 It sounds as if what we are getting towards is not so much ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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56 1 what -- how permanent is permanent, but here's permanent, 2 and we need another option.
3 MS. TROTTIER: Yes. I think that's where we are.
4 You know, the agency realizes right now that there's a lot 5 of confusion with what we have defined as a permanent 6 installation. And that's why we got into this enforcement 7 action issue, is that it was not clear.
8 MR. MANNING: There was a lot of confusion, on my 9 part, of what a facility is. And there is a lot of 10 confusion, on our part, when we put it in our regulations at 11 the insistence of NRC. We are not sure that we use it 12 really for anything, it's just there.
13 As far as history and intent, let's talk about old 14 Part 20, for just a second when we are talking about high 15 radiation areas and access to high radiation areas and 16 controls on access to high radiation areas. Jnd then you go 17 back to Part 34, and you find in that the authorization for 18 a radiographer to substitute surveillance as a substitute 19 over the controls to the entry in a high radiation area.
20 That's what you need. Tnere's your health and safety. You 21 don't need lights, bells, sirens when you have someone 22 standing there watching it, or, as someone else mentioned, 23 there's a lock, where nobody can get to it anyway.
24 The lights, bells, and sirens have the purpose of 25 a facility which the radiography licensee can say this is a-ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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57 1 high-use area, or this is an area with resonance nearby. We 2 don't control a hundred acres of land'with the radiographer 3 sort of sitting in ,the middle there. We need some 4 shielding. We need some controls to keep the levels down or 5 unrestricted area control.
6 When the licensee uses to shield and control a 7 facility, then it becomes what you define as a permanent 8 facility, my feeling is that's the choice of the licensee, 9 not the agency.
10 MS. TRoTTIER: My sense is that, in almost every 11 . case here, it is the choice of the licensee. Am I right 12 about that? I mean, is there any state that requires a 13 licensee to have the bells and whistles, just because it 14 happens to be a shielded room?
15 MR. COOL: Let's go around the room and ask_that 16 question. We'll start with New York and just go right 17 around. Do you require a licensee to have the bells e.nd 18 whistles?
19 MR. KASYK: Yes, we do. And I would like to point 20 out another. We are talking about radiography operations,
'21 but that's a verified area. Every company engaging in 22 nondestructive testing will have magnaflux, they will have 23 zyglode, they will have ultrasonic, and all kinds of other 24 things all around. And the radiographic operation is only 25 one part of the business. And, in many cases, it's ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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58 1 impractical _or impossible to declare a whole building where 2 they operate a controlled area. So, then there room becomes 3 a controlled area.
4 MS. TROTTIER: And you require them to put the-5 alarms on?
6 MR. KASYK: That's correct.
7 MS. TROTTIER: On the room?
8 MR. KASYK: On the room, yes.
9 MR. MANNING: May I respond? We have a facility 10 that does a lot of large medical metal fabrication. It is 11 not practical for them to have a single or even several 12 shielded rooms, because they never know what size parts they 13 are going to be bringing. They use concrete walls, moveable 14 by overhead crane, to bring in and put around the things 15 that they're fabricating on the floor. 1s that a shielded -
16 - is that a permanent facility? We don't think so. .It may 17 be here today and there tomorrow.
18 MS. CARDWELL: It's not permanent, but it's 19 shielded.
20 MR. MANNING: It's shielded, right.
21 MS. TROTTIER: I want to get an answer to this 22 question, so that we do not spend two days on item one.
23 [ Laughter.)
24 MR. KLINGER: It depends on the licensee - what 25 they say they're going to do.
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59 1 MS. TROTTIER: So, it's their option?
2 MR. KLINGER: Yes, it 13.
3 MR. FUNDERBURG: _ Bob Funderburg, California. It 4 is the licensee's option. We require it, if they list'it in 5 their application for licensure.
6 MS. TROTTIER: But they may use a shielded room 7 and not call it a permanent installation; correct?
8 MR. FUNDERBURG: Right.
9 MS. DIBBLIE: Martha Dibblee, Oregon.
10 We have two license categories. One is a fixed 11 facility we call it, and one is the field facility. The 12 fixed facility means a cell that has the alarms on it, and 13 the other facility is any other facility. And we charge-14 twice as much for the field as we do for the fixed.
15 MS. TROTTIER: Well, that figures. Now, a field 16 facility can be at their place of business; correct?
17 MS. DIBBLEE: Yes. The field facility can be 18 anywhere, except it's not a fixed facility.
19 MR. COOL: That's an interesting example.
20 MR. HENRY: Louisiana, licensee's option.
21 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
22 MR. COOPER: Kansas, fixed facility we require it, 23 temporary, we don't.
24 MR. MARYLAND: Neal Maryland with the State of 25 Ceorgia. It's up to the licensee to request if-they want a ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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60 1 shooting cell or not. And, if they-do, they have to have 2 the bells and whistles along with it.
3 MS. TROTTIER: Do you -- would you allow them to 4 shoot in a shielded room though, without --
5 MR. MARYLAND: If it's considered a temporary job 6 site for the licensee, yes.
7 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
8 MR. COOL: And a temporary job site could be at 9 their place of business?
10 MR. MARYIAND: Yes. I mean, if they owned a 11 hundred acres on their property, yes, they could do it right 12 there, if they wanted to.
13 MR. MILLER: Let's go back to Kansas. What did 14 you say again?
15 MR. COOPER: At a fixed facility, we require bells 16 and whistles. We have two fixed -- temporary facilities for 17 a job.
18 MR. COOL: What trips them into a fixed facility?
19 MR. COOPER: Well, you've got your concrete 20 blocks, and your cells permanently. You can't move those.
21 MS. TROTTIER: So, in other words, they couldn't 22 have a concrete room and say it's a temporary facility?
-23 MR. COOPER: On the premises yes. If it's incide 24- the building where you cannot move'it, it would be-required.
25 But, if it's outside -- see, what we have --.we do i
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1 fabrication in several plants'that do fabrication. Outside 2 they do take the crane and move metal from different places, 3 as they do in a temporary site. But, on the inside, we do 4 require bells and whistles.
5 MS. DIBBLIE: Maybe I could clarify. The way l
6 Oregon does it, a' fixed facility has, as part of the license 7 application, measurements on the outside. It has an U 8 estimate of what the does rates are going to be on the 9 outside on the walls. It has an estimate of sky shine, it 10 has a statement of what the maximum source size is going to 11 be. In other words, there are -- it's like doing a therapy 12 room. And that was the rationale for having a smaller 13 license fee, because the -- we were limiting the scope of 14 their work. And that's where fixed room or fixed-cell 15 radiography came from, as far as we were concerned in 16 oregon.
17 MR. MARYLAND: Let me go back. As far as the 18 State of Georgia is concerned, I mean, if a licensee wanted 19 to do some work that had cobalt-60 or even iridium, let's 20 say 200 curies, you know, we wouldn't probably let them go 21 at a temporary job site and do the work. Okay? But, at 22 that point in time, we might require them'to have a shooting 23- cell. So, it really depends on the activity of the source.
24 MS. TROTTIER: Now, remember, what the question is 25 is a licensee allowed to have a concrete room inside his ANN 'RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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-1 facility and not put alarms on it and do radiography inside 2 that room?
3 MR. MARYLAND: Well, if he requests-a shooting 4 cell, yes, he has to have the bells and whistles.
5 MS. TROTTIER: But if he just chooses to do 6 radiography in there, as a " temporary job site," even though 7 it's in his building --
8 MR. MARYLAND: He could, but if he was using a-9 real hot source, probably not. They would have to submit 10 procedures to us so that we can review that.
11 MR. BONZER: With the cell we require alarms-and 12 lights and scheduled daily use checks. Also, there's a 90-13 day limit at a facility.
14 MS. TROTTIER: So, are you saying that they could 15 have a room and just not use it for 90 days?
16 MR. BONZER: No. We require, if it is a fixed 17 facility or a cell, to have alarms and lights. We also 18 have, for a permanent facility to be able to raise the 90-19 day limit.
20' MR. COOL: They have to use it 90 days a year for 21 it to qualify as a permanent facility -- a permanent fixed 22 facility?
23 MR. BONZER: Right. All the ones we have in 24 Colorado that are fixed inside of a building,_they all-do 25 have alarms and lights.
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. 1 MR. WALKER: Bob Walker, Canada. We have no ,
2 requirement for bells and whistles.
3 MR. KELLEY: Rick Kelley, Arkansas. It is the 4 licensee's option.
5 MS. TROTTIER: I think we know what Texas is now.
6 We know it.
7 MS. LOPEZ: I am not that familiar as to the 8 requirements of permanent or temporary job sites in New-9 Mexico. But, from the little that I have read, I know that 10 we do have a definition for a permanent, and that the 11 . requirements are set for bells and alarms.
12 MR. TRUMP: Carl Trump from Maryland. I will 13 answer it yes and no. We have one facility at Bethlehem 14 Steel. It's mostly they have the whistles and clarms 15 because they use x-ray, and not too much radiography in the 16 isotope. But we also have several that have the concrete 17 rooms, which do not have the alarms.
18 MS. TROTTIER: Okay. So, you do?
19 MR. TRUMP: Because the intent was only a storage 20 site. And we know they do, once and a while, put it in 21 there.
22 MR. KLINGER: It is required for permanent fixed l 23 facilities. However, like so many other portions of our l
24 regs, if somebody makes a good argument, they have good 25 administrative controls, we would entertain a section to l
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. 1 that.
2 MR, MANNING: Let me say that ours has a time 3 limit of 30-days. In our regs it does say that it is 30-4 days. And intent is probably philosophically better than 5 I'm sure ve have with the 30 days, because it's much nasier 6 to prove it at a hearing than intent would be to prove.
7 But, also, if you came and said we are only going to use it-8 at a temporary job site, we haven't made them put them up.
9 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
10 MR. MANNING: If he's got all the requirements of 11 a temporary job site going there, and he is currently not 12 being enforced totally, he is in our regs as a permanent 13 site with the control bells and whistles.
14 MS. TROTTIER: The only time -- would you then 15 take action if they were in fact using this temporary room 16 for more than 30-days? Would then you require that?
17 MR. MANNING: We could, but then you still 18 probably could get away with saying -- the reason-for 19 putting up the bells and whistles is the ability to lock the 20 door and leave.
21 MR. GOFF: Bob Goff, the State of Mississippi. We 22 do require the bells and whistles at the facility. We also 23 have the timeframe like you all have of 30 days.
-24 MR. COOL: And your fixed facility is tripped once 25 again by what? How have you decided that they're a fixed ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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65 1 facility?
2 MR. GOFF: The licensee,.at the current location 3 on his license, goes in and builds four-foot walls, with the 4 intent to shoot radiography.
5 MR. COOL: At his site he constructs a shielded 6 room, and does radiography there, you're going to consider S
7 him to be a fixed facility and require him to have the 8 access?
9 MR. GOFF: That's correct.
10 KR. COOL: You both mentioned 30 days. Let's go 11 ahead and ker e going down the lines.
12 MS. TROTTIER: All right. The last two.
13 VOICE: Oklahoma is not an agreement state, so wo 14 have no regulation.
15 (Laughter.)
16 MR. MILLER: We want everybody to know that 17 oklahoma is seeking agreement state status however.
18 VOICE: Our Governor has signed his letter, and he 19 has proceeded to the NRC.
20 MR. MANNING: In response to the 30-day period, I 21 should have brought it up a while ago, when I was talking 22 about history and intent. I think that 30-day thing comes 23 from the old Part 20. And it has no specification as to 24 whether it.is per year, per lifetime or whatever. We have'-
25 seen an interpretation of that, and never got a: satisfactory ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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66 1 one, so we don't use it. We allow the licensee to make its 2 own determinations as to whether that facility is fixed or 3 not. If it specifiea on its application that it is fixed, 4 we are going to look to see if it has bells and whistles, et 5 cetera on it. Otherwise, we expect to be treated as we -
6 would any other temporary facility that has maintained all 7 the postings, surveillance et cetera, on that facility.
8 MR. VERELLEN: The State of Washington feels 9 slighted. When the licensee applies, if they want to take 10 supposedly some shortcuts because of the engineered safety 11 design, they could declare a fixed facility for a temporary 12 job site.
13 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
14 MR. COOL: Did we miss any other states?
15 MR. KASYK: I would like to make one point. Not 16 in Part 34, but I believe in Part 20, is a regulation which 17 requires control of access where any person can be exposed 18 for an hour or more. They have to be controlled. The 19 radiation has to be reduced to I believe a hundred millirem.
20 There has to be some way to prevent entrance. I believe 21 this should be in Part 34 part of the regulation, which 22 affects radiography.
23 MR. COOL: I think there's an exception to that 24 rule. Do we have any other members of the public? I have l
25 one, two, three? . We'll start here.
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67 1 VOICE: It seems to me like there shouldn't be a 2 question about a permanent installation, if you're making an 3 exposure room, if the exposure room is permanent period, 4 whether you do radiography in it once a year or once a day.
5 And why do you put bells and whistles on it whenever most -
6 - probably the majority of all the radiography we do in this 7 country is done by use of a survey meter, with the trust of G a good, trained radiographer. And if you have an exposure 9 room and areas built properly, it's safe on the outside, and 10 you put a padlock on it. When the operator goes in, he uses 11 a survey meter like he doen for any other type of 32 radiography. And if you are consistent with what you are 13 doing and what you are calling permanent and temporary, and 14 be consistent in the type of survey equipment that you use, 15 you'll only recognize survey meters as a safety device. And 16 why not use the survey meter? Just because the bell and 17 whistle goes off at the door, do you allow the radiographer 18 just to open the doot and go in when the bells and whistles 19 go off? He still has the survey meter. So, let's be 20 consistent about it. The shooting room is thousands and 21 thousands of times safer than a temporary job site. So, why 22 be so positive about bells and whistles?
l 23 MR. COOL: All right. Thank you. A comment.
l l 24 MR. TUAZON: Manny Tuazon, for Consumers Power 25 Company. The only reason why we have permanent facilities l
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68 1 is because it is required by the NRC Reg Guide 10.486. It 2 would break our heart if that would be eliminated in the 3 process. The only reason is because we are required by 4 regulations. And, if I hear you correctly, in essence, if 5 will require and really monitor the use of calibrated -- or 6 the possibility to really eliminate the problem. So, the 7 reason why we have that in our license is because it is 8 required by the NRC, and it would break our heart if you 9 guys eliminate that as a requirement.
10 MR. COOL: Okay. From the Navy, and then we have 11 got one, two back here, I believe.
12 MR. LOWMAN: From the Navy again. We_have nine 13 requirements as to what makes up a permanent facility. They 14 are based on the 10 6, and we have three operational 1 15 requirements that are required every time you go to use one 16 of these facilities. You have to check the bells, whistles 17 and alarms the first time you use it any day, any shift, or 18 whatever. And you record those and maintain those for three 19 years. And we have a third required that -- after any 20 exposure, the first radiographer to go into that facility, 21 to open that door where the bells, alarms and' whistles are 22 to carry an operating survey meter to make the readings as 23 they go along.
24 MR. COOL: All right. Do we have anyone else who 25 wanted to talk?
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69 1 (No response.]
2 MR. COOL: At this point, having gone around the 3 room on the question, having spent close to an hour to 45 4 minutes sitting in your seat, we are going to give all of 5 your seats a little bit of a break. I have 12 minutes after 6 three. We will resume at quarter of 4:00.
7 MR. MYERS: One second before everybody needs.
8 Betty over here is trying to get everybody's name. So, I 9 going to put a couple sheets of paper out marked Agreement 10 Statas, AS, and public. So, if you would sign -- or 11 actually, don't sign your name, print your name, and print 12 your affiliation beside it, so that we can have copies for 13 the recorder.
14 [ Recess.]
15 MR. MYERS: This is a reminder. If you have not 16 signed in up here, at the next break, please sign _in.
17 MS. TROTTIER: All right. I left this up here 18 because, even though we talked about a lot of things, I just 19 want to have a real short conversation about these two 20 related issues. And then Don suggested that maybe we ought 21 to move ahead to item four, which is the two-person crews.
22 Anyway, on this issue of the related' things, these 23 ~ vere things that were in the list. As I said, we got a list 24 from the staff that came out of multiple sources: Canadian 25 Regs, Texas Regs, suggested state regs. Those were the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 three primary sources. And some were from staff ideas and 2 other things'that were just in other NRC rules.
3 So, what I did was I listed things that seemed to 4 be related to the issues of the permanent facility. And the 5 two items on here are whether or not you should list on the 6 license all permanent locations? The sense I got from a lot 7 of you is that you do require them to list permanent 8 locations. Currently, the NRC rule does not say that you 9 have to provide a list of all the permanent installations 10 that you have. But, my sense is that most of your do. I 11 suspect we do it through license conditions, right, Bruce?
12 MR. CARRICO: Right. The license, itself, 13 identifies place of business type of thing.
14 MS. TROTTIER: So, the question is do we need to 15 revise the rule to require that, or is there a sufficient 16 mechanism to get that information without it being in the 17 rule? Does it need to be in a rule?
18 VOICE: Do you need a rule to change the 19 procedures? In other words, can you start requiring license 20 applications, and putting it in your license without a rule?
21 MS. TROTTIER: Do you want the honest answer, or 22 what we do? Marjorie would say you need a rule.
23 VOICE: .How many attorneys over there?
24 MS. TROTTIER: One. Now, if this is something
.25 that's not broken, maybe it doesn't need to be fixed. But, ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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+ 1 I guess I would like to get some feedback. Do you perceive 2 this as an issue?. Is this something the rule should-3 address, or is it sufficient as it is?
i 4 MS. ROTHCHILD: Would we be: required to check out:
5 a customer's license, one of the problems we run-into is 6 they don't' always list out their permanent facilities.- At 7 the same time, they don't always list themselves to be'able 8 to use and control the temporary job site. So, we can run 9 into a bind.at that point, but we can shift to them because 10 it's not listed on their license.
11 . MS. TROTTIER: It sounds like there is some 12 advantage. Yes, Bruce?
13 MR..CARRICO: I would note that this report comes 14 from the Texas regulations'. Perhaps they might want to say 15 something about'why they would propose that.
16 MS. TROTTIER: I'm sorry, Bruce, what was that?
17 MR.-CARRICO: I said I-noticed that this comes 18 from the Texas regulations. I believe the regulations:
19 require that -- it says that they must be listed. Is there 20 -any reason why you did-that? .Did you see some problems?
~
21 How did you -- why.did'you do that?
22- .MS CARDWELL:- It just sounded good.
23 MR.-CARRICO:- It sounded good?
24 MS . '_ CARDWELL: - No. We-have a really large number-25 -of radiography licenses. Several of them-do have multiple,-
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- 1 permanent locations. And it is all tied back to where 2 records are required to be kept, and it helps our 3 inspectors, in terms of their inspections.
4 MR. KASYK: George Kasyk. I would like to 5 reiterate our concern that a location that can become a 6 place of business. There is a hardly any way to stop that.
7 Why is it there? I have difficulty understanding why, 8 unless it becomes a place of business.
9 MS. CARDWELL: In our rules, a permanent location 10 is a place of business. The requirements for what define 11 the permanent location is there is a time limit on there, 12 and if they advertise business from that location, the 13 telephone service contract will be filled.
14 MS. TROTTIER: The issue is whether it's an 15 installation for the purpose of radiography.
16 MR. KASYK: How would you prevent them from 17 becoming a place of business? You list them on the license, 18 and then they can say well, we are a business. There are 19 places on our requirement -- how are they going to compete?
20 MR. KLINGER: We had this problem when I was-in 21 Texas. There was a problem where we had all these other
'22 locations that they were operating out of. We said that's 23 not right. It's a permanent location, but it wasn't the 24 defined theory. That's why we came up with this -- if you 25 conduct business, if you get some contracts out of this ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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73 1 location, establish a service -- there are several different 2 things. If more than one come into play, then it triggers, 3 this is more than just a temporary job site, it-is a 4 permanent site. And that triggers other things --
5 additional permanent site listed on a license, a fee. It's 6 true in Illinois as well.
~
7 And the importance of this, as well, is because, 8 if you look at the definition of a temporary job site, it 9 says a temporary job site is defined as a temporary use 10 location and that it is not listed as a permanent site on a 11 radioactive material license or a certificate of 12 registration. That's why it was important to define that.
13 It ties back into the definition of a temporary job site.
14 MS. DIBBLEE: In Oregon, perhaps in our mercenary 15 way, every separate facility, if a licensee has a location 16 in Portland and in Salem, each of those separate locations 17 is going to have a separate license, even though it11s the
.18 same licensee. And they will pay a separate fee for each 19 location.
20 MR. COOL: Ladies and gentlemen, we have got a lot 21 of nort of side conversations that are starting to develop.
22 I would like to hear some of those things that are going on, 23 elmply so~that we can all benefit from-them. But, 24 simultaneously, at least for myself, I don't know about the 25 Court Reporter, it is making it difficult to follow what is ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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.74 1- actually going on here. 'If we can try to keep ourselves-2 focused on where we're going so.that we con get a clear -
3 transcript, please?
4 MS. TROTTIER: Okay. If there are no other i 5 comments on that one, I would like to move up to the first 6 one. And I thought maybe it would help if I read it to you.
7 First of all, to understand my code, SSR stands for 8 Suggested State Regs. And I'll just read this one, and.what 9 is different from what is in Part 34 today. This is under 10 the requirements for a permanent radiographic installation.
11 It says: "The control device or alarm system 12 shall be tested for proper operation at the beginning of '
13 each day of use." That's not it. This-is what is 14 different. If a control device or alarm system is operating 15 improperly, it shall be immediately labeled as-defective and 16 repaired before industrial radiographic operations are 17 resumed, which means that you cannot use some other
' 18 mechanism to control access, you.have to repair the device 19 before you can get_. access to the room again.
20 Any_ reactions.to that?-
21- MS. DIBBLEE: That's the way we do it.
22 MS..TROTTIER: Okay. All right. -I just want to-23 make sure, i
i 24' All right. Let's move to, issue four,iwhich is on l
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75 1 petition for rulemaking addressing this issue. The petition 2 has not yet been noticed. And I believe it should be within 3 a few weeks probably. It is close. I did not bring it with 4 me. We already had this on the agenda. So, I thought that, 5 since it was already in the list of things that we were 6 dealing with -- that the primary issue was dealing with the 7 issue, not with the petition. The petition will probably be 8 resolved as a result of this rulemaking.
9 So, I guess the question is -- and I've heard a 10 lot of points of view about two-person rule -- and maybe, 11 unicos there is the need for a lot of discussion on it, wo 12 ought to just find out where overybody stands on it. In 13 fact, you know, do most of you have two-person requirements 14 now for temporary job sites? Are we the only onna who 15 don't?
16 HR. COOL: I would like to focus the question in a 17 couple of parts.
18 HS. TROTTIER: Okalt.
19 MR. COOL: one, do you huve a requirement for a 20 two-person crew? And, if you do. what are the 21 qualifications of each of the it iduals? Because one of 22 the comments that was mado earlier, was it makes a '
23 difference, certainly in the impact that it would have to 24 the licensee, is whether both of the individuale in the crew 25 have to be certified radiographora, whether one of them can i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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76 1 be a rudjographer's assistant or a trainee, or some lesser 2 classification of trainee. We'll discuss those later. But, 3 some lesser classification, or whether -- I think the words 4 used was -- a warm body, is the second classification. So, 5 there are two parts of the question. Maybe to start this, 6 just to go around the room.
7 MS. TROTTIER: Yes. I'd like to.
8 MR. COOL: Do you have a two-person crew? And, if 9 so, what are the requirements of the two individuals. Why 10 don't we start on the other side of the room, so we don't 11 pick on New York all the time, first. Name, state?
i 12 MR. HANNEY: Nanney, Tennessee.
13 MS. TROTTIER: No two-person rule?
14 MR. NANNEY: No two-person rule.
15 MS. TROTTIER: Okay.
16 MR. HAMMOND: Jerry Hammond, Oklahoma. We have an 17 opinion on this. This has been talked through the 18 radiographers in our state. If we had a rule, we would go 19 with the two-man rule at a temporary job site.
20 MR. COOL: And what would be the qualifications of 21 the two men?
22 MR. HAMMOND: Basically, both of the people would 23 have to be trained in radiography, whether it is a 24 radiographer and an assistant, or a radiographer.
25 MS. TROTTIER: But some training.
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- 1 MR. COOL: Just a warm body floating around?
2 MR. HAMMOND: No. Because he would not have the 3 proper training.
4 MR. COOL: All right.
5 Mr.. COFFt Bob Goff, the State of Mississippi. We 6 require a two-man crew. They have to consist minimally of a 7 radiographer and a radiographer assistant.
8 MR. MANNING: We do not have a two-man crew rule, 9 however, we have a pending petition for rulemaking from one 10 of our larger radiographer firms, asking that we put it in.
11 I don't know what we will do.
12 MR. KLINGER: Joe Clinger, Illinois. We do not 13 require it currently, but we are considering it in some 14 proposed regs. And we are considering two certified 15 radiographers.
16 MR. FOGLZi David Fogle, State of Texas. We do 17 have the two-man requirement -- two qualified radiographers 18 or a trainer and trainee.
19 MR. TRUMP Carl Trumpy Maryland. Two-man crews, 20 a minimum of a radiographer and a radiographer's assistant.
21 MS. LOPEZ Margaret Lopez, the State of New 22 Mexico. We don't have a rule for a two-man crew.
23 MS. CARDWELL: We do, except that ours is two-24 person, not two man.
25 MS. TROTTIER: I thought so. Or, you could say, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 if it was a woman, they wouldn't need a second person.
2 (Iaughter. )
3 MR. FOGLE: That's on the record.
4 MR. KELLEY: Rick Kelley, Arkansas. We do not 5 require a two-man crew, however we are leaning go to that 6 way.
7 MR. WALKER: Bob Walker, from Canada. We don't 8 have two-man rule either, but we have been informally 9 petitioned by some people, and we are considering it. If 90 10 adopt it, one will be a qualified radiographer, the other 11 will have to be an assistant, with some sort of training.
12 MR. BONZER: In the State of Colorado, we do not.
13 MR. MARYLAND: Neal Maryland, the State of 14 Georgia. We do have a two-man crew at temporary job sites, 15 and we also have three categories of radiographic personnel, 16 which is instructor, radiographer, and trainee. And if a 17 trainee goes out, he must be accompanied with the 18 instructor.
19 MR. COOPER: Kansas. We do not have the two-man 20 rule -- a two-person rule.
21 MR. IIENRY: Mike !!enry, Louisiana, requires two 22 qualified radiographers on temporary job sites. We do have 23 a third category called a trainee, which is usually a third 24 person, or requires a three-man crew, because it still'has 25 to be two radiographers, and one of the radiographers must ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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79 1 be an instructor.
2 MS. DIBBLEE: Martha Dibblee, oregon. Oregon does 3 not have a rule. We do it by licensed condition, requiring 4 radiographers and an assistant at least.
5 MR. FUNDERBURG: Bob Funderburg, California. We 6 do not have the two-man rule, but I understand we are 7 planning to have it, and it will be similar to the State of 8 Texas. I don't know why -- possibly because they're 9 curious. But he did stress the point that we should have a 10 clarification on the different designations. Do away with 11 . the helper. The helper has no business being out there 12 whatsoever. He doesn't have a belt film badge on, and he is 13 not qualified to rewind that device back. There should be 14 just three designations: Radiogrspher, radiographer 15 trainee, and a trainer. And this should be uniform, so that 16 we don't havn to worry about this problem with what an 17 assistant radiographer, versus a radiographer assistant.
18 MR. CLEAVER: Kentucky. Kentucky does not have a 19 two-person requirement. I suspect that our next revision 20 will have it.
21 MS. TROTTIER: And would they be two 22 radiographers?
23 MR. CLEAVER: A radiographer and an assistant at 24 least.
25 MR. KASYK: New York. Since 1971, we had a two-ANN RlLEY &. ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 man crew. one of them has to be a qualified radiographer, j 2 and another one has to be a trained helper or a radiographer 3 assistant, no matter whether the radiography is conducted in i 4 the rule or outside. Shooting or radiography, we allow 5 them, on request, to reduce the crew to one qualified [
6 radiographer.
7 MR. VERELLENs Bob Varellen, from the State of 8 Washington. We don't require the two-man crew.
9 MR. MILLER: I just want to read - -this is Vandy 10 Miller, the Agreement States, State Programs. I have been 11 holding this. This is from Walter L. Koffer, who is the 12 Public Health Physicist from the State of Florida. He was .
. 13 definitely planning to be here. And most of you all know 14 who he is, because he is also a committee member on AS&T --
15 a member of semething, I'm not sure exactly what that 16 specification is. But he is very knowledgeable in here, and t 17 I just want to read you something that he said here for'the 18 record.
19 "Where a two-person radiographer crew should be 20 required at a temporary job site. The required use of two-l 21 member crews consisting of,.as a minimum, a radiographer and F
22 an assistant radiographer, there should be only one 23 exception to this requirement in performing radiography-in 24 an approved permanent radiography installation." *
- 25. So, that's Flcrida. Now, he's not just. speaking .
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. 1 for Florida, because he did not clear these with his 2 director, but he is a very knowledgeable person, so I 3 thought his point should be made here.
4 MR. COOL: There seems to be a great deal of 5 contiment either already in place or some of the people are 6 thinking about them.
7 How, let me ask the proverbial question that we 8 have to answer when we write a statement of considerations.
9 Why?
10 MR. GUY: We observed the high-radiation area, in 11 many cases, cannot maintain continuous surveillance of the 12 high-radiation area, because it exists on this side of the 13 plate and on that side of the plate.
14 MR. COOL: All right. Let's keep going.
15 MR. FUNDERBURG: Bob Funderburg from California.
16 There exist specific conditions in which one person cannot 17 maintain visibility of a complete area.
18 MR. COOL: All right.
19 MR. FREE: Bob Free, Texas. I think the-results 20 would be a good indicator. In our experience in Texas, 21 prior to requiring two-person crews, the majority of over-22 exposures were occurring to assistant radiographers. At 23 that time, an assistant radiographer could be what we now 24 call a trainee. And, they were generally the ones that were 25 sent out to fetch and crank out sources and set up film and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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82 1 so fourth. So, they were most likely to receive more 2 exposure as a result of that. Again, our experience is that 3 those people tended to receive more exposure. And, on many ,
4 occasions, they were sent out alone.
5 MS. TROTTIER: In other words, the radiographer 6 wasn't even at the job site?
7 MR. FREE: That's right.
8 MS. TROTTIER: So, your rule requires that they 9 both be physically present at the location where the camera 10 is, and that the radiographer cannot, in fact, go back to 11 the dark room?
12 MS. CARDWELL: If it's a two-radiographer crew, 13 that can happen. If it's a trainee and instructor, the 14 instructor or trainer, whichever term you want you use -- I 15 used instructor -- must maintain visual contact of that 16 trainee at all times.
17 MR. MARYLAND: Direct surveillance.
18 MS. CARDWELL: So, he cannot be -- then we would 19 be back to the same situation.
20 MS. TROTTIER: Right. That's what I was trying to 21 figure out.
22 MR. HORNOR: Reg five has been citing tha*: -
23 radiographers out in the field because they say they can't 24 observe the camera, in many cases, and do the perimater 25 survey at the same time. So, you caught between a rock and ANN RILEY_ & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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83 1 a hard place. And a lot of them are being cited for it an 2 getting civil penalties, because they either have to observe 3 the camera, or they have to make the measurement at-the 4 perimotor. And they can't do both.
5 MR. IIAMMoND: Gary Hammond, Oklahoma. We had an 6 incident in Oklahoma a number of years ago, where a 7 radiographer, by himself, set out to set up on a 8 scaffolding. lie fell off the scaffold and broke his leg 9 with the source. Six hours elapsed.
10 MS. CARDWELL: That was what I was going to say.
11 The obvious is, if something happens, you have a second 12 person to-get help, where, otherwise, you've either got to 13 leave -- you've got to make the choice, if you have to leave 14 the equipment.
15 MR. KLINGER: Illinois. And not just to get help.
16 If somebody who really knowc what they're doing -- if that 17 source is out, a person has to understand the potential 18 problems associated with that and be able to just, you know, 19 assess the situation and take appropriate action. .That's 20 why we have the two radiographers, not just a trainee.
21 MS. CARDWELL: Cindy Cardwell. 'Along with Joe's 22 lines of thinking, before we used the term assistant. And 23 an assistanc was basically someone who was supposed to have 24 gotten training in the licensee's operating.and emergency _
251 procedures, and that as-it. And we found the problem, as ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd. -
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84 1 Bob said earlier, those were the people getting over-2 exposed. They didn't have the training. They didn't have 3 the classroom training. And one of our reasons for doing-4 away with that word assistant, and coming up with trainees,_
5 is because they truly are different things. A trainee now 6 has to have at least a 40-hour safety course before he can 7 oven touch a source of radiation.
8 MS. TROTTIER: That is why we are trying to find 9 out what are the minimum qualifications for the trainee.
10 MR. COOPER: Vick Cooper, Kansas. One question.
11 What do you all do with the ma and pop operations?_ Do any 12 states have any of those ma and pop operations? How do you 13 all handle that, as a two-man crew?
14 MS. TROTTIER: In other words, where there's only 15 one radiographer?
16 MR. COOPER: Right. And a lot of times, ma don't 17 go.
18 MS. CARDWELL: There's no difference in our state 19 for -- we don't have any one person -- I don't think we have-20 any one-person shops, maybe two. But, that satisfies the 21 requirement.
22 MR. FOGLE: David Fogle, Texas. We do have a one-23 person operation that is a permanent reg installation.
24 MS. CARDWELL: And that's allowed. It is 25 complicated.
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85 4
1 MS. TROTTIER: We have a few --
2 MR. COOL: I would like to hear from our licensees 3 and users.
4 MS. TROTTIER: A few hands are up.
5 MR. COOL: Let's start over here.
6 MR. HOWERTON: I'm Hugh Howerton, from Chicago 7 Bridge and Iron Company. I think anybody who believes that 8 radiography on a temporary site can be performed with one 9 radiographer is acting silly. There are many reasons. As 10 has been stated before, if a radiographer, number one, gets 11 . sick, incapacitated, cannot crank his source back in, he 12 needs a second person. Number two, that second person needs 13 a sufficient amount of training. The word assistant to 14 Chicago Bridge and Iron takes on some specific meaning. An 15 assistant radiographer must display competency with the 16 equipment. Number two, he must know the emergency operating 17 procedure, and, number three, he must be given a written and 18 oral test and understand the operation. Whether he needs to 19 attend a 40-hour class or not may be one thing. But he has 20 to have some minimum training.
21 Another reason to have a second radiographer is, 22 as stated before, he can't see the source from both sides of 23 the shell, or monitor the perimeter. In many of our 24 arrangements, we have three or four individuals outside the 25 radiation barricade rope with survey meters monitoring the i
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86 ,
1 area. Now, those are not assistants, those are helpers, 2 but they are monitoring the area, adjusting the lines as 3 necessary. So, I think there are a lot of things that need 4 to be considered here. An assistant has to have a cortain 5 amount of training. That is done by the stato rules, and by 6 the stato monitoring the licenseos. Some licensoo's 7 traineos may have little training, others may have 8 acceptable training. I know that -- as for our company, wo 9 have an NRC licenso, and we have a licenso with many of the 10 states in here. And the rules that we use are very very 11 similar in all of the locations.
12 Yes. Two individuals are definitely required.
13 MR. COOL! Another?
14 MR. BALLARD: Bruce Ballard, New Jersey licensee.
15 Training is a very important part of being a radiographer.
16 There is classroom training, which is very important, and 17 there is practical job sito training. Now, where a one-la person crew is allowed, the only timo you can put a second 19 person on that crew is when production requires it. So, 20 with the two-person crew in all temporary job sitos, you 21 have a slower-paced job, where a man can be trained, without l
22 being under the gun, to koop up with production. It gives 23 you a slower pace to properly train the individual without 24 having to compoto against another company that doesn't put 25 - that second man out there. And also, it will reduco your ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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l 87 l t
. 1 person rem exposure because a safety officer for a-company, 2 in looking at film badge report or dosimeter reports, can j 3 say to the lead radiographer, start doing more of the l
P 4 exposures, or it allows him to split up the radiation [
5 exposure between two people instead of one.
6 MR. TUAZoN: Manny Tuazon, Consumers Power 7 Company. In our company, we do not require two 8 radiographers in any job site. The radiographer will have 9 to make that determination whether he can control the area 10 or not. And if he thinks that it is difficult for him to 11 . control that, he decides to add one or more radiographers on 12 that particular area. A case in point, at times you have to 13 assign four people, because there you are-in charge -- it's 14 difficult for me to cover the area, therefore, I need more 15 help. And we determine that that person is responsible to 16 make that decision. And if he sees he cannot control this, 17 if help is not available, no job will be done. So, that guy 18 makes the determination. !
19 Now, the safety concern was discussed.among us. ;
20 one of the things that was. mentioned earlier was what if. .
21 okay.- In Michigan, we have a lot of fields where our 22 . personnel may be working all alone. We provided an 23 . individual.recently to shoot --:Where, at any' time that that 24 individual. feels like he needs-help or he has some problem,.
i 25 he will have_ access to any area, so that help will be- -
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s 88 1 available. To datormine that that individual qualified as a 2 radiographor will have that dotormination that ,if indood, 3 he cannot control the area, that he may determine that ho 4 noods more than one individual. And like I said, at least 5 sometimes there are four people assigned because this man 6 says the control in difficult, and for the safety of my 7 work, as well as the public, thoroforo, for no to do the 8 job, I nood more people. We will make arrangements for 9 that. But, there is no limit two-man crow. We provido a 10 telephone. It will ring. They are near a talophono.
11 MR. COOb Let mo ask you a question before we go 12 and proceed on. !!ow would that work in some of the 13 circumstances that have been described hero, where someone 14 falls of the scaffold or becomon incapacitated in a way 15 whero either ho in not capable of using the phone, or the 16 phono is no longer usable? I don't know if some telephonoa 17 would survivo a fall of a scaffolding.
19 HR. TUAZON: One of the requiremonto in our 19 accident provention manual is that, before doing a job on 20 any given sito, wo have to inspect the job area to determino 21 boundarico. At the same time, you will detonnino the need.
22 How, if there is a need for scaffolding and climbing, then, 23 at that point, you will say I nood help. I cannot do the 24 job without anybody helping me. At that time, the decision 25 will be mado. And our radiographer, if help is not ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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89 1 available, and he indicated that it is needed, will make the 2 decision whether to do the job or not. If he does the job, 3 God forbid that never happens; but, if he does the job and 4 something happens, he did it himself. In many cases, he 5 will say Manny, I have got a problem here. We cannot go do 6 the boundary. And I will say what do you want to do now?
7 Ile says maybe I needed you to como over and assist us. It 8 happens. That person is qualified and is trained to make 9 that determination. If he says that and determines, that is 10 the reason why we place him there, to make this kind of 11 determination.
12 MR. COOL: All right. We have some other folks.
13 Is this a follow-up to that statement?
14 MR. BALLARD: Yes.
15 MR. COOL: Why don't you go ahead, and then we'll 16 go on to something else 17 MR. BALLARD: Bruce Ballard, New Jersey Licensee.
18 Our company has its own internal policy. On any job sites 19 'Nero there is scaffolding, as in tanks or facilities 20 p.ocessing plants, chemical-generating stations, we insist 21 on two-person crews. It's simply a matter of not only 22 safety, from a radiography standpoint, with injuring 23 yourself without the source being out. Even climbing the 24 scaffolding you can hurt yourself, or climbing down into a 25 man-way. A lot of our work is performed after hours. And ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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90 1 there is a safety concern there is no one else out there 7 some times. So, in all of our job sites, or I should say in 3 a lot of our job sites, we provide two-person crews simply 4 because there is an elevated risk, and we just don't want to 5 take it.
6 MR. COOL I think we had some other members of 7 the public.
8 MR. LOWMAN: I will just go on the record again 9 with the Navy to say that we require a minimum of two 10 qualified radiographers -- and it is usually closer to four 11 to six.
12 MR. COOL: Okay.
13 MR. PATTERSON That's a yood point. But, with 14 the two qualified radiographers, a lot of times you are x-15 raying -- you're doing three shots every four minutes, and 16 in the developing room as well. There is no way -- I 17 remember when we changed the rule from direct supervision to 18 direct surveillance. The radiographer can't develop and 19 read the film and hcVe a direct surveillance over his L-20 drop there. So, you do need two qualified radiographers.
21 If one should get hurt, the helper certainly is qualified to 22 back him and get the isotope ready for transport. So, the 23 two radiographers are best.
24 MR. WHITE: Roger White, TVA. We don't have the 25 two-man rule, and are operating on emergency procedures. I ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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1 91 J
. I think it is a good idea.
2 MR. COOL All right. l 3 MR. COOPERt My name is Vick Cooper from }{ansas.
4 I'm not saying a two-man crow la not necessary. I do 5 believe it's necessary. The question I'm asking is how many 6 states havo ma and pop operations that don't always have a 7 two-man crow? That is what I was asking. And what do you 8 do about that? That's what I was asking.
9 MS. TROTTIER: It sounds like there is no 10 flexibility.
11 MR. COOPER: Yes. That's what I'm nuking.
12 MR. COOL Does anybody want to respond to that?
13 I got a couple of people.
14 MR. WALKER: I don't have a response to this i 15 question, but I would just like to add that I think another 16 important reason for a second person on the crew is for the 17 ability for a sober second thought, if you'll pardon the 18 expression. During work planning, we had an incident in 19 Western Canada about six months ago, whero one radiographer 20 was operating two cameras. 11 0 cranked one sourco out, and 21 then he would ontor his own high-radiation area to set up 22 the shop for the second camera. And I would like to think 23 the second person there might have thought it through.
24 MR. COOL: Okay. That's an interesting 25 illustration.
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92 1 MR. MILLER: Well, let me just say that Walter 2 Koffer says there should be only one exception to this 3 requirement for performing radiography in an approved, 4 permanent radiographic installation. A single radiographer 5 should be permitted to work alone. The installati.on of 6 visible -- system serves and adequately ensures that the 7 radiographer will have a means of being alerted to the 8 existence of an inspected high-radiation area.
9 MR. COOL: Let's see if we can get a response to 10 the statement from Kansas before we proceed on.
11 MR.-KLINGER: Joe Klinger, Illinois. I think most 12 of those -- have gone out of business. There might -- I 13 mean, times were tough a few years back. I don't know, a 14 lot of them went out. We might have a couple of them, I'm 15 not sure. When we proposed this rule with a two-16 radiographer requirement, then we'll hear from them, and 17 we'll see what their plans are. That's all I have.
18 MR. MARYLAND: Neal Maryland with the State of 19 Georgia. We have adopted a two-man crew. And we do have 20 some nom and pop operations, and they are required to get 21 another person that's trained to work with them. And we 22 have had no termination of licenses because of that.
23 MR. COOL: Interesting. Before we proceed on, I 24 want to put the members-of the public on the spot here for a 25 minute. Because this seems to all be running in the same ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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93 1 direction. We are all sort of beating each other. What 2 would be the impacts to your operation? Some of you, as we 3 have already heard, have policios where your operating a 4 two-man crew. What would be the impact here on operations, 5 if a two-person crew was required for field locations? If I 6 can just cort of go around and get your qualitative feel.
7 Either you don't see an impact because you do it, or you see 8 an impact, what that impact might be.
9 MR. Il0WERTON: llugh flowerton, from Chicago Bridge 10 & Iron Company. If I could ask a question? When you talk 11 about a two-man crew, or two-person crew, do you mean 12 radiographer and assistant, or two radiographers, or a 13 trainer and a trainen?
14 MS. TROTTIER: That's why I put this slide here, 15 because I think there's another issue we have to deal with.
16 But, maybe just to answer the question, two people, two 17 bodies.
18 MR. IlOWERTON: We're doing it now. At CDI we are 19 doing that now -- two individuals for temporary radiographic 20 operations.
21 MR. COOL: We've got several of the airlines here, 22 presumably based out of BMW. I'm just curious. How are you 23 conducting your operations now? You're in Texas, so, I 24 would suspect you would know.
25 MR. SPENARD: Shearn Spenard, American Airlines.
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94 1 I am out of Alliance. We use two men. We follow Texas.
2 MR. BAILEY: Roy Bailey, out of Atlanta. We use 3 two.
4 MR. COOL Two-man crews.
5 MR. STEPHENS: Ron Stephens with Delta. We use 6 two people. ,
7 MR. MORGAN: I'm Jim Morgan at TWA, and we operate 8 under NRC, and we une a number of people, more than one 9 always.
10 MR. COOLt More than one always? Often times more 11 than two than?
12 MR. MORGAN 4 Yes. Most times, more than two.
13 MR. CooLt All right. Texas is ready to jump back 14 in here.
15 MS. CARDWELL Well, I am going to take this 16 opportunity to do some business. With the airlines around 17 here, you know, we've been talking about this revision. We 18 cicaned up our rule when they were proposing that at the 19 first of the year. And I know this is not an issue for NRC, 20 but we all deal with x-ray too. And since wo implemented 21 this rule back in what, '86, I forgot, x-ray has always had 22 to do basically the same thing. In its new revision, I am 23 going to direct this toward the airlines, or some of them.
24 For those of you who do only x-ray, we have deleted the 25 requirement for a two-man crew using x-ray machines on a l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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- 1 temporary job r11te. So, when that rule comes out, we need 2 some comments on that. Not for a seal source at all, but if 3 you're using strictly x-ray. And we've deleted that 4 requirement.
5 MR. COOLt Just to clarify for a moment. What was 6 your rationale for doing that?
7 MS. CARDWELL We haven't had any incidents. The 8 x-ray machine -- the danger is not there. The machine -- ,
9 the timer either terminates the exposure or you have to --
10 you can unplug the thing. It's not like a sealed source 11 left out in an exposed position.
12 MR. COOL: Any other comment? Did you want to 13 jump in on that? Okay. Yes, sir.
14 MR. STEPHENS: I am kind of like the gentleman i
15 from Michigan. When a customer calls us with a request for 16 radiography, we determine -- if it's out in the middle of 17 the field somewhere, we get complete surveillance. If it's 18 up in the air, at a power plant where you can't survey it, 19 then we send two men at least. It's kind of tough on the 20 job. It's all right if everybody requires two because 21 you've got to put the job that way; but, if you're putting 22 the job with somebody -- with one radiographer, and we're 23 putting two, you can't compete with then.
24 MR. COOL: Good point. All right. Cheryl, why 25 don't you jump to attention.
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. 1 MS. TRoTTIER: I have put primary issue three up 2 because it sounded like there was some variety, whether it 3 was two radiographers, or a radiographer and a trainee.
4 And, I will say this. NRC does not have rego right now that 5 look like the suggested state regs. We do not have the J
6 instructor, the trainee. Right now what we have is 7 radiographer, radiographer's assistant. So, the question is 8 related to two things, one of which doesn't appear on the 9 slide. Should we -- we started out with the concept, should 10 we require additional training for the radiographer's 11 assistance? But, now it almost sounds like should we_ move 12 into a realm of trainer / trainee, radiographer. And I guess 13 I would like feedback on that. You know, if we went with 14 this two-person rule, and we said one could be a trainee, as 15 long as the other one was the instructor, is that a burden?
16 or, you know, is the ideal almost that you have to go with 17 the two radiographers?
18 Yes, Bruce?
19 MR. CARRICos one point here is, if we require 20 additional training for the radiographer's assistance, it 21 would be in the 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br /> prior to them actually getting some 22 assistance. So, it would be comparable to a trainee -- the 23 trainer would not do much.
24 MR. Cool: I guess one of the questions we need to 25 have answered here, or have it on the record at least, is ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. I what things above and beyond the qualifications of the 2 radiographer do you see as being necessary for the 3 individual to serve as a trainer?
4 MS. TROTTIER I think it's the time they've been 5 a radiographer, isn't it?
6 MR. CARRICO: Yes. A year.
7 MS. TROTTIER: They have to be a year as a 8 radiographer before you cen be a trainer.
9 MS. CARDWELL And then we also name them 10 specifically on the license as a trainer, so that our 11 inspectors will know when they get out there that that truly 12 is a kosher team out there.
13 MR. COOLt But there's no other requirement, in 14 terms of other emergency procedures or other forms of=
15 training or efforts toward certification?
16 MS. CARDWELL: Our requirements do require that -
17 - yes -- that the radiographers -- the revisions -- the 18 trainer had to meet all the requirements of being a 19 radiographer, which basically means hu has completed all the 20 certification requirements, has an additional year of 21 documented experience, and is named specifically on the 22 license.
23 MR. KLINGER: Joe Klinger from Illinois. We 24 wrestled with this with a number of staff. I was convinced 25 we needed those additional requirements for a trainer. And' ANN RILEY'& ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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98 1 I had difficulty defending it because -- what does the 2 additional year -- why did you pick a year? Why not three 3 years? Does it mean that person is any more qualified to 4 teach than somebody that is a certified radiographer without 5 that -- that additional year. And so we ran around this for 6 a long time, and finally I acquiesced, and so our draft rule 7 just says a radiographer and a radiographer trainee. We 8 don't have a category of trainer.
9 HS. CARDWELL It's como up in our staff meetings 10 several times about is that good enough? But, we basically 11 couldn't come to any conclusion as to where to go from 12 there, and what to acquire additionally. You know, you 13 could get into things like an additional test or additional 14 training. Finally, we just left it as it was, and we'll 15 just see what happens.
16 HR. KLINGER: Basically, what we went back to was 17 what are were really trying to do? Where have tho' problems 18 been? Have the problems been with the radiographer 19 assistance, the radiographer trainees? We said how do we 20 improve that situation? We think that we improve the 21 situation by asking sure that these people have the same 22 exact training before they go out there and do any work at 23 all. That's what Texas is doing, and I think NRC is 24 considering that. -So, that's what we're thinking about 25 doing too. I know it's an additional burden on the ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd, Court Reporters 1612 K. Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D. C. 200G6 (202) 293 3950
99 1 industry, and I'm sure the industry probably commented. But 2 that's something that we feel could go a long way. The NRC 3 hasn't rally proposed that, have they?
4 MS. TROTTIER: No. That's what we're 5 contemplating now.
6 MS. CARDWELL: As Joe pointed out, we did get a 7 whole log of comments when we did our rule, about that 40-8 hour -- well, at that time, we didn't even specify 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br />.
9 We just said they had to have the appendix training.
10 MS. TROTTIER: Now, does your revision have 40 11 hours1.273148e-4 days <br />0.00306 hours <br />1.818783e-5 weeks <br />4.1855e-6 months <br />?
12 MS. CARDWELL: It has 40 in it.
13 MS. TROT'IER: Okay. Because what I have is the 14 old one which doesn't say 40.
15 MS. CARDWELL: I've got it. But, the comments we 16 got were that they were heading to invest in the training of 17 an employee who maybe did not stay around long enough for 18 them to basically recoup that investment in the training.
19 And that is a valid point, but we' stood firm, based on the 20 fact and the number of incidents with the helpers and the 21 assistanca, and said this is obviously improper.
22 MR. FREE: Bob Free with Texas. I don't think 23 that you can enter into a program requiring experience or 24 otherwise, training, to establish whether a person is 25 qualified as a trainer. It seems to me it falls into the ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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100 i
. I same category of substituting a year of experience for a 2 year of college. But, it's a long-term. I think that what 3 you're gaining, over the long-term is the cadre of people 4 that can perform training for trainees. We have situations 5 where people that had very good qualifications on paper, 6 have abused the privilege of training trainees. In fact, 7 we're looking at jerking their ID cards. But, again, over 8 the long-term, we will have wooded those people out we feel, 9 and will have established, among the group of radiographers, 10 a cadre of trainers.
11 MR. MARYIAND1 Neal Maryland, with the State of 12 Georgia. We have radiographic personnel, they're grouped, 13 instructor, trainee and radiographer. And one of the 14 problems we have, as far as with the instructor, every 15 licensee in the State of Georgia that has one-year 16 experience as a radiographer will be upgraded to an 17 instructor. And that was -- and we need to find a way that 18 was can I guess have a solution to that, because I think the 19 intent of the rule was to try to find the most qualified 20 person to go out with the trainee, instead of having all the 21 radiographers who have one-year experience being upgraded to 22 an instructor, which is named on the license. And that has 23 been one of the biggest problems we've had so far with that.-
24 MR. FUNDERBURG: This-in Bob Funderburg from 25 California. Does the State of Texas have your trainee ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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101 1 requirements competency based? Do you evaluate the 2 training? How, you certify -- and I can't remember --
3 MS. CARDWELL: What we've done now in this new 4 revision is when they get their ID card it will now mean 5 they have completed everything. They've done their 6 classroom hours, their OJT, an taken a test and passed it.
7 For the trainee, it announces they have to have the 8 classroom training, it has to be by an agency-approved 9 course, and there is a double check there against rosters of 10 people who have completed the courses -- those who submitted 11 their records that say I have completed this course. So, we 12 have that ability to double-check that. And we issue them 13 just a -- we call it a trainee status card. But there is no 14 test or anything involved with that. And that's just simply 15 for inspectors. If they go out in the field, if they don't 16 have an ID card, and they don't have a trainee status card, 17 they are not qualified.
18 MR. FUNDERBURG: One of the things that California 19 is considering in their certification program is certifying 20 the trainees. After they take the 40-hour course, they come 21 in and take their test, and then they become a trainee, and 22 then they get their on-the-job experience before they become 23 the radiographers. Again, we are just contemplating this.
24 I would like to hear other comments.
25 MR. COOL: We have got a couple -- at least one of ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Itd.
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- 1 the licensees who has been trying to slide into this
-2 discussion for several minutes. Let's get your view, and ,
3 then we will come back to the State of New York.
4 MR. HOWERTON: Hugh Howerton, from the Chicago- !
5 Bridgts and Iron. I know that, since I'm a member of the >
6 public, I was going to let the states get their input first.
7 But, one of the things that I think we needed to get back to 8 is where is the source of the problem? If the scurce of the 9 problem is with the assistant radiographers, the trainees, 2-10 then the program needs to be developed to address the 11 trainees, agreed. Now, whether it's an eight-hour or a 40~
12 hour course, I thir.k somebody needs to seriously look at 13 that. When you hire an employee to do radiography, whether 14 it be from another company or a brand new hire, tne first 15 thing you need to do is get him into a training class, 40 16 hours, that's only scheduled at certain times. You can't 17 put a guy -- hire him on Friday and Monday _put him into a- e 18 40-hour class that may not be available. -So, what we, at 19 -Chicago Bridge & Iron have done is developed a training '
20- program that lasts four_to eight hours minimum for the -
21 assistant radiographer, for him to go over and be familiar-22 with the operating and emergency procedures, the items in 23 Appendix A, a competency test on a dummy source, and a
- 24 written or oral = examination on 25 questions. Now, this can-25 be administered by the Assistant Radiation 1 Safety Officer-or ANN RlLEY & - ASSOCIATES, Ltd. ;
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103 1 the Radiation Safety Officer, who had been given the task, 2 either by management or by qualification, to administer the 3 program. So, what you then do is now you have an individual 4 who has eight hours of training wh if a radiographer 5 becomes inccpacitated, knows the emergency and operating 6 procedures. He may have even been shown pictures and 7 discussed overexposures, so that he knows what he should do 8 and shouldn't do. He shouldn't touch the .7arce. He cranks 9 the camera back in, sets up the perimeter, he either has 10 somebody else go to notify, or he has somebody there staying 11 guard, so he can go notify. So, with an assistant 12 radiographer, in that type of position, number one, you 13 reduce the training from eight -- from 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br /> to eight 14 hours, you have a two-man crew on a job site to do exactly 15 what you need to do. And the other part of the problem is 16 that the states need to find out what training the assistant 17 radiographers have. Some states may go out to the job site 18 and ask the assistant, how did you become an assistant 19 ..d ographer? The assistant says well, a guy came out from 20 the office, he showed me what the camera was, he spent 20 21 minutes with me and, bingo, blessed him as an assistant.
22 Bingo. I know that happens. What you need to do is address 23 the assistants and how you train them.
24 MR. COOL: All right. Michigan?
25 MR. TUAZON: Manny Tuazon for Consumers Power ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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104 1 Company. In the absence of the four-man requirement from 2 the NRC on the requirement for assistant radiographers, our 3 license, as a practice, requires two things here. For 4 someone who has no experience, fresh from college, we send 5 them to Amersham for the 40-hour course. And then, back to 6 our department, we have operating an emergency procedure, 7 where the individual will have to learn the specifics of 8 what is needed frca this person -- a four to eight-hour 9 course. Then he has to pass -- or she has to pass a written 10 and practical examination administered by RSO or RSO System.
11 only then will the Amersham certificate -- only then when 12 you pass the examination given by the RSO, or RSO a.~ mnate 13 will he be given the paperwork to become assistant 14 radiographer. And then it takes three months of experience 15 before we consider that individual to become a radiographer.
16 So, we have training for assistant radiographer. And that 17 part of the culture is written somewhere. But, as a 18 practice, we require them to go to Amersham for their 40-19 houa course, and then a for the eight-hour specific 20 corporate emergency procedures, and pass.the written and 21 practical examination. Then and only then can you become an 22 assistant radiographer.
23 MS. DIBBLEE: Martha Dibblee Oregon. I see two 24 issues here. And I can see your side of it, and I can also 25 see the side of the smaller contractor radiographer. You ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 people who have large, well-established programs, the 2 airlines and the power plants and the Chicago Bridge & Iron 3 and so on, who perhaps do larger jobs and have the ability 4 to train your people and have plenty of people and always 5 have enough residents coming in is one piece.- What I see as 6 a regulator are people who are operating on a shoe string.
7 And I have a choice of saying well, you know, sorry, you're 8 not going to be in business anymore. The way we have 9 required training is to go by the regulations, and we have a 10 radiographer assistant, and we have a radiographer, and we 11 have to fulfill these requirements. But I can see that the 12 way you do it, in-Minnesota is it, is a much better way of 13 doing it, if it can be managed. But, I think you are going 14 to be taking jobs away from people in certain -- under 15 circumstances. So, we try to weigh that. We want to keep 16 the requirements safe, but, at the same time, not make an 17 overkill if you will.
18 MR. BALLARD: Bruce Ballard, New Jersey licensee.
19 Getting back to the point the gentleman from 20 Chicago Bridge & Iron raised, is where is the problem? The 21 problem most often is with under-trained and improperly-22 supervised assistants allowed to work as radiographers in 23 many cases. So, I think the approach is enforce the 24 regulations you have, instead of over-regulating, in the 25 hopes that you will get-the minimum regulation you seek.
~
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. 1 But, radiographers assistant is simply that. _He-is-there to ,
- 2. ' assist and, in case of an emergency, to cease operation;in'a 3- safe manner.and secure the environment.
4 To send a newly-hired individual,-with no previous 5 experience, to a 40-hour course does that person a 6 disservice, because without some kind of field experience, 7 you don't know what instructors are trying to explain to..
8 you. And if you follow the regulations, if an-assistant ~is '
9 always directly supervised by a radiographer, in a. perfect 10 world, he would never get into any trouble. The trouble he 11 gets into is when he is unsupervised. And, I simply believe 12 that trying to over-train a green employee will-not do him 13 any good. He needs a little practical experience under the 14 direct supervision of a. trained individual, radiographer or 15 instructor, and then he can understand the formal classroom 16 training you will give to them.
17 MR. McNEES: In Mobile we took an-incident 18 involving what was causing over-exposure. In the area of' 19 radiography, about two-third or more of them, as I recall, 20 had worked as radiographer's assistants or helpers or 21 somebody off the street hired them-in.
22 MR. COOL: Were these' situations in which the 23 assistant was acting solo?
24 MR. McNEES:' What happens here is you've got three
~
25 jobs going on and F.Gmebody Calls-up and asks you to do a-1 ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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- =1 tie-in in a pipeline and you don't have that many people, 2 maybe'what they'll do is they'll start -- the pool may not-3 be big-enough. They start hiring people, or they -- like 4 the expansion at Kimberly Clark. Well, you've got two 5 people shooting, and the production company was putting in 6 the piping ahead of what they could do, and they asked to 7 find another one. And what they do is they start hiririg up 8 an experienced man directly off the street, and then the 9 experienced man in the darkroom or doing something else.
10 MS. TROTTIER: Well, that almost sounds like there 11 shouldn't be an assistant level, you know, that the only one 12 who is doing the radiography or working around radiography 13 should be radiographers I hope.
14 MR. McNEES: Or require the radiographer to be 15 oaserving the assistant. What's the difference between 16 direct supervision and direct surveillance of the assistant 17 by the radiographer?
18 MR. FUNDERBURG: Bob Punderburg of California. He 19 has already violated the regulations,.so the passage of more 20 regulations isn't going to make any difference. I think the 21 point nbere is to get enforcement, and jab them so they 22 don't do it again.
23 MR. FREE: Bob Free with Texas. Since we have 24 installed our requirement for an ID, and the-trainer 25 requirements, we've seen a drop -- it's a little premature ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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_ 0 1- for the trainers,-but we'have seen a drop in the percentage 2- of trainee over-exposures in just the last-couple of years.:
3 And' definitely there's a drop.in the percentage'of'over- -
4 exposures since the ID card has been passed.- And one of.'the. .
5 reasons is that we have the ability to take-enforcement 6 -action against individual radiographers now for_failing to.
7 perform their duties on the job.
8 MS. CARDWELL: And, if_I might? - 'The comments you 9 made is when we got a lot -- when we'were doin"j this rule 10 was why so many rules, why don't you just Enfcr( e w1at you 11 have? And--it's a valid comment. But, we're *.lsa 1Lke
-12 everybody else, there's not enough of us to go a round. And 13 it took us.several years to get our enforcenent group up to 14- the point where we were issuing notices of violations-to 15 individual radiographers, sometimes in conjunction'with-the 16 . licensees, and sometimes-just solely through the 17 radiographer himself taking enforcement.actionsLagainst 18 those individuals.
19 MR. COOL:- Let.me ask aLquestion about the 20 experience. You had a number cf cases dropped. -And I've 1 21 heard other. people say that in.the-same breath,-they;have 22 been arguing to me that they can't make the case because the 23 economic -conditions ~ have just resulted 'in a decreased number:
24 of operations. And:the percentage', when you look at it vis-25 a-vis the number of shots or something.like'that hasn't ANN RILEY:& ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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109 1 really changed. Do you have some reading on whether this is 2 actually a drop due to what you put in place, or a 3 fortuitous circumstance with a decreased economy and a 4 decreased number of exposures?
5 MR. FREE: Bob Free with Texas. It's almost 6 impossible to apply the factor due to the economy or the 7 nature of the industry. But, what we have seen over the 8 time period since 1987 is this decline. And, in 1987, I 9 talked to radiographers over the phone who said that they 10 were in an economic decline. So, since we're getting a 11 reduction in percentages of over-exposures to trainees, then 12 that tells me, at least I'm interpreting it this way, that 13 there is an impact, based on the rules that we put in place.
14 MS. CARDWELL: The licensees?
15 MR. FREE: Radiography?
16 MS. CARDWELL: Yes.
17 MR. FREE: Over the last two months, zero. Over 18 the last two months, I --
19 MS. CARDWELL: I mean over the last couple.of --
20 MR. FREE: We renewed three new applications for 21 just radiographers.
22 MS. CARDWELL: Over the last couple of years. So, 23 the number of licensees stayed about the same?
24 MR. FPEE: Yes.
25 MS. CARDWELL: So, they're not dropping -- and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 we're not losing licensees due to the economy?
2 MR. FREE: I think that we're gaining.
3 MR. COOL: Okay. I think that is good 4 information. The State of New York?
5 MR. KASYK: Mr. Kasyk, the New York State 6 Department of Labor. I think that the trainer radiographer, 7 who is training a radiographer should probably have some 8 more experience in training people. The number of hours 9 that he works as a radiographer in no way control his 10 ability to train. You know, there is a big difference.
11 Somebody may be a hell of a good radiographer, but he is 12 just tongue-bound to explain something to the trainees. So, 13 I would think that some -- I don't know what -- but some 14 extra training in training should be given to thena people 15 before they woilld be authorized to train. The simple time 16 of being a radiographer doesn't seem to address it.
17 MR. FREE: Bob Free of Texas. I don't know that 18 there are very many states that have the budget necessary to 19 set up something like that. I don't know that very many 20 companies do either, other than setting up a college degree 21 in radiography. That is sort of impossible. So, you have 22 to approach it based on the resources you have available.-
23 And that's why I personally think in Texas _that we're going 24 to wind up with this cadre of people-that can do training.
25 MS. CARDWELL: To be frank, the one year was just ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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111 1 grabbed out of the air. There has'got to be some difference 2 between sending -- okay, if we've got a two-man crew that 3 needs a trainer and a trainee, and they have just completed 4 their testing, juct completed their OJT and came in and 5 passed the test, we want there to be some lag time. We 6 don't fool that that person can go out in the very next week 7 and be a trainer. At that point, we require two months on 8 the job training. Ivo months we didn't feel was enough to 9 turn around and then train somebody else, so we tacked on a 10 year. That was the total reasoning behind it. It's not 11 perfect, but it differentiates somewhere between the trainee 12 who has just gotten to be a radiographer, and one who has 13 been working as a radiographer. And, yes, it makes no 14 difference as to whether they're a good radiographer or not.
15 MR. CARRICO: It also seems to me though that 16 they're not providing -- those trainers are not providing 17 instruction on radiation safety or something like that, it's 18 just they're providing them with the understanding of how to 19 do the job that they've gained through their job experience.
20 Asking for a year seems like a reasonable situation. It 21 takes time to learn how to do a job. Once you gain that 22 experience you want to pass it on.
23 MR. BALLARD: Bruce Ballard, Licensee from New 24 Jersey. The additional requirement of naming trainers on 25 your license seems to be a good idea, in that a licensee ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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. 1 -should at least be hesitant to put people as trainers by 2 name on its license that he feels are not qualified.
3 Putting in the regulations additional training or additional 4 testing requirements could be difficult. But, the fact that 5 this licensee now has put this individual's name on paper to 6 a regulatory agency makes the licensee more responsible.
7 And I think that should be a mandatory provision in the 8 training.
9 MS. DIBBLEE: Martha Dibblee, Oregon. We heard l 10 carlier that Illinois AG disagreed with this. I would like 11 to hear from the lawyer. Aren't you a lawyer?
12 MS. ROTHCHILD: Yes.
13 MS. DIBBLEE: Chn you comment on what we have been 14 talking about? Are you for NRC?
15 MS, ROTHCHILD: Yes.
16 MS. DIBBLEE: Are you the lawyer for NRC?
17 MS. ROTHCHILD: Yes.
18 MG. DIBBLEE: Have you reviewed the scope of this 19 discussion, as far as whether or not these people should be 20 trained or not trained, or the length of their on-the-job 21 service or anything like that?
22 MS. ROTHCHILD: Well, I guess, from a legal point 23 of view, the only question would be is there a basis or a 24 rationale for the requirement? That's basically what,-from 25 a legal point of view, what we would get into, not so much ANN RlLEY & - ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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113 1 the merits.of it -- it sounds like a good idea or_it_doesn't 2 sound like a good idea. I think we just want to have a 3 rational basis for it.
4 MS. DIBBLEE: Based on Cindy's rationale, could 5 you substantiate a rule based on that rationale?
6 MS. ROTHCHILD: If it is explained in a way that 7 sounds like there is certain logical support for it, yes.
8 Although she said it was kind of pulled out of the air. I 9 mean, in fact --
10 MS, CARDWELL: I wouldn't say that on the stand.
11 . [ Laughter.]
12 MS. CARDWELL: Scratch that part.
13 MS. ROTHCHILD: I was meaning to say actually that 14 it sounded like there was a good reason in fact for the 15 number that they chose.
16 MS. DIBBLEE: I think that -- we use a year. And 17 I was just -- it has not been challenged, and that's why --
18 19 MS. ROTHCHILD: Where did you get a year?
20 MS. DIBBLEE: I think we got it from you.
21 MR. KLINGER: Joe Klinger, Illinois. These same 22 arguments -- I used every one of them with my. legal counsel, 23 and they say okay, I can almost buy it but not quite. They 24 just can't buy it. So, has Texas actually turned down 25 anybody for some other reason if they met the one year?
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. 1- Were there any other standards? And has --
2 MR. FRSE: We have had some occasions -- well one, 3 specifically, that comes to mind where an individual wanted l
4 to become a trainer, and, based on his past performance as a 5 radiography licensee, he owned his own company, I have to 6 say we attempted not to allow him, as a trainer, on another '
7 licensee's application. But, we eventually wound up having 8 to add him. We just -- we could not, based on what -- this 9 is very specific -- he made a very specific case. And, we 10 just felt like we didn't have enough in place to prevent 11 this person being allowed as a trainer. As a result of 12 that, and several field inspections of his activities, we 13 found that he is doing pretty well as a trainer, while we 14 would'e't trust him as a radiographer.
15 MR. COOL: I would like to try and start wrapping 16 this discussion up. We have a couple of folks, members of 17 the public who would like to make a comment. And if anyone, 18 very quickly, has a comment on some of the related issuos, I 19 think we had sort of touched, one way or another. People 20 had made comments about how they've included most of these 21 things. But, a couple members of the public, and then 22 anyone who has specific comments on some of these related 23 issues.
24 MS. TROTTIER: I'm going to change the related 25 issues, since I think the one that is related to four deals ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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115 1 more with the issue of the assistant, and this one is more 2 of a trainee.
3 MR. PATTERSON: A.R. Patterson, retired. I really 4 believe that the quality of training that a radiographer '
5 assistant and a radiographer and a trainer gets is much more 6 important than the amount of time that is consumed over his 7 training period, whether it's in-house or out-house training 8 program. I can remember one instance of a radiographer that 9 had attended three 40-hour schools, and there was a lawsuit 10 because of a lost source that he had picked up and put back 11 into a device. He told the judge that I looked all over the 12 deck of that barge for that source -- the little test tube 13 with the source in it -- and he says, I never could find 14 that test tube.- Now, this was a man that had been to three 15 formal training schools, who was looking for a cotton-16 picking test tube out on the deck of a barge with a source 17 in it. So, the quality of education that he got I don't 18 think was the, type of education that we need to be giving a 19 radiographer. I think he needs the hands-on experience.
20 MR. FREE: Bob Free from Texas. I would like to 21 respond to that somewhat. We have an individual 22 radiographer who had -- at the time I first met him, he had 23 12-years' experience as a radiographer, in fact, he had been 24 an RSO for a company. And, after we instituted the 25 requirement for the ID card, on his third attempt he passed ANN RlLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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116 1 the test. Later on, he was' involved in an incident where he 2 received a radiation burn to his ankle. I don't really feel 3- that that person, even though he passed the test, and it was 4 just barely, qualifies, under my definition or my standard, 5 as a radiographer. And he had classroom training and he had 6 a number of years of experience -- probably the same on a 7 number of things.
8 But, you can find examples to support the argument 9 either way. I think that, if you look at over-exposure 10 data, incidant data, inspection data, and take a drawn look.
11 at it, in general, you can say that the program is effective 12 the way it's set up. There may be things that we could do 13 to tailor it to make it better, but we have a large number 14 of licensees to look at, rather than one or two who are 15 exemplary.
16 MR. COOL: Yes, sir.
17 MR. CASH: Allen Cash, Oklahoma. Experience in 18 almost any field of endeavor will show you that experience -
19 - length of experience does not necessarily-make you 20 proficient at what you are going to do. Take a driver.
21 Some drivers just can't drive, and no matter how long they-22 drive, they are not going to be able to. Some radiographers 23 are not going to be able to instruct after three months or 24 30 years. Some, after three months are going to be just ra 25 good as some -- as they will be in three-years. So, I'm not ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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117 1 saying one year is not a good number. But, I'm saying, just 2 because you've got one year is not going to make you 3 qualified to be an instructor. You need something else in 4 place to distinguish an instructor from a radiographer, 5 MR. FREE: Bob Free again. I think we are talking 6 about a system here. We are not talking -- this is not 7 supposed to solve the problem of setting up qualifications B for an assistant radiographer or trainee or whatever you 9 choose to call it. It is not the answer. The answer is in 10 the system, and the regulatory approach that's taken. And 11 that -- and it doesn't end there, it also involves the 12 commitment on the part of the licensees to radiation safety 13 and training and all the things that go into producing a 14 profit and, at the same time, maintain safety.
15 MR. CABE: Dennis Cabe, Duke Power Company. It's 16 my understanding that to obtain a license you have got to 17 have an established training program. At some point in 18 time, somebody has got to look at that and say this is 19 accepted. Your training program is acceptable. Along with 20 that, you have cot to have a person who is responsible and 21 can be held responsible for proving the competency of the 22 people that he puts out there on the street. Whether it's 23 the radiographer, you can send a man down there and spend 24 three months or six months with a radiographer, and you are 25 going to have a guy that is going to be as good as that ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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.-* 1 -radiographer in-two months, or you may have a man that-may-2 take eight month . At some point in time, you'have to 3 determine the competency of the_ people _that you put in.
4 Whether you designate the radiographer as a 5 " radiographer / trainer," I don't think that's necessary. I 6 don't think we need another designation.
7 In my company we have a radiographer, a 8 radiographer's assistant, a radiographer's helper. The only 9 time that the radiographer's assistant can perform -- under 10 the definition, he can perform all of the duties of a 11 radiographer, under the direct supervision of a 12 radiographer. That doesn't mean that the radiographer can 13 be in the dark room developing pictures. That don't mean 14 that the radiographer can be on the other side of the :
15 containment. If he is consistently working out there,_he 16 has to be under the direct supervision of a radiographer.
17 At some point in time, either the RSO, the radiography 18 supervisor, at some point in time, somebody is going to take 19 responsibility and say yes, this assistant can now be put on 20 the license as a radiographer, he can start working as a 21 radiographer within the company. And I don't know where you 22 are going to make the designation as far as 23 radiographer / trainer or what. That's my point.
24 MS. TROTTIER: Okay. One more.
25 MR. KASYK: George Kasyk, New York Department of ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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- 1 Labor. What you have said is true, but we have got to 2 exclude a person who goes to a consultant, pays him $3,000, 3 and he has everything finished -- radiographic manual in his 4 hands, and they don't know anything about it. Now, you look 5 at the manual and see it is very good, a top professional, 6 but it doesn't mean anything.
7 MR. FREE: That's your regulators though. Half 8 the time they're saying that you've got to establish a 9 program, and whether you follow that or not is up to you, 10 and if you don't, you have to assume the responsibility that 11 you did not follow that program.
12 MR. KASYK: That's true. You can inspect them all 13 in a certain length of time. In the meantime, you have to 14 operato -- we try to get the new licensees as soon as 15 possible, but sometimes it's impossible to do it. So, maybe 16 three months will expire and then you find out if they 17 bought the manual, they hired some assistants or 18 radiographers who might have good qualifications even as a 19 radiation safety officer. The man swears on a stack of 20 Bibles that he will be approved by the employye, and we go 21 there a year later, we find out the man has gotten a job 22 somewhere else, he has never even been at the installation.
23 And he is a regulation safety officer who is responsible for 24 it. There is not a single document in the possession of the 25 company signed by this man.
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120 1 MR. COOL: I'm going to take two more comments 2 from the members of the public, and then we're going to 3 close off the discussions for this afternoon.
4 MR. TUAZON: I think we must mention here that the 5 licensee has the responsibility on all these issues to train 6 an individual. But, it takes the licensee an honest effort 7 to tell the individual, hey, we mean business here. We want 8 you to comply with the requirements, this is the le.v. We 9 will train the individual. We ensure that they receive the 10 basic training. The regulatory personnel, like yourself, 11 sir, should -- in your job, if you're required to audit ther 12 on a certain periodic basis, you should do that to ensure 13 that they are operating an emergency procedure and 14 requirements have been complied with.
15 The licensee must, as a basic requirement, ensure 16 to the individual that they are indeed -- this is my 17 business. I am sincere in implementing the requirement.
18 Either you do it or we will have nothing to do'with you.
19 And you, as the regulator, have the responsibility to ensure 20 that, indeed, if it is required by the program that they be 21 audited for a certain period of time, that you perform this 22 audit and verify that things are being done. I think that 23 both of us have some responsibility here. And it begins 24 with us as licensee, and also as regulators, to ensure that 25 we implement the requirement of the law.
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l 121 1 MR. LOWMAN: I em a little confused here again, 2 because we are an NRC licensee. No , seriously, there are 3 big differences. -And, in this particular thing, we have 4 made a commitment that our licenses are written in 5 accordance with the Reg Guide 10.6. We seem to be go ing 6 away from the Reg Guide. And it seems to me like there's -
7 - I don't know how many Agreement States there are, but 8 there is a Reg Guido, and then there are 21 or 22 other 5 different things. And I think we need to draft something.
10 I think you may find that that one-year thing that you are 11 talking about is right in 10.6. For the person that's doing 12 the training, it says one year's experience.
13 VOICE: We are talking about a different situation 14 here on training. They're talking about a guy that can;go 15 out on the job site and provide on-the-job training. That 16 is a radiographer. NRC's regulations simply say that it has 17 to be a radiographer, and he has to have three months OJT.
18 What Texas has imposed is an additional nine months.
19 MR. LOWMAN: In Reg Guide 10.6 it says he should 20 have a year -- that radiographer should have a year of 21 experience.
22 VOICE: That's a different thing than OJT. Their 23 trainers provide OJT. It's not an instruction. I think 24 there is some confusion between instructor and trainer here.
25 Those terms are being used synonymously and they're not.
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122 1 MR. COOL: All right.
2 MS. TROTTIER: I also want to say one thing. What 3 we are dealing with is the regulation. We are not-dealing 4 with the Reg Guide, which is another whole issue.- We really 5 are focusing on the regulation.
6 MR. LOWMAN: Well, I understand you are doing 7 that, but, at the same token, the NRC license reviewer uses 8 that Reg Guide as the basis for --
9 MS. TROTTIER: Don't let Marjorie hear that. She 10 does not want to hear that. That is not even an official 11 Reg Guide, it's a draft Reg GuAde. NRC does not enforce 12 draft regulatory guides, period.
13 MR. COOL: This has discussion had disintegrated.
14 Ladies and gentlemen, let me say, before you all go and 15 rustle your papers too much, that this.has been a very 16 useful and profitable afternoon's discussion. There have 17 been some really good points bought out. And I hope that 18 all of our members of the public will be able to join us 19 again tomorrow, when we continue this, and press on to some 20 of the other issues.
21 We will begin tomorrow morning at 8:30, I suspect 22 it will be in this-room. And, unless there are some 23 administrative matters that Jim Myers has --
24 MR. MYERS: It looks like I'm about-10 names 25 short. I know some of you had comments, and maybe you don't ANN RiLEY & ASSOCIATES, Ltd.
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.- 1 really want your name associated with those; comments. _But, 2 it would' help.the recorder and us to have your name and 3 affiliation. So, they are right here.
4 MS. CARDWELL: I would like to say one more thing.
5 Since I am going to have to produce this regulation, !
6 tomorrow morning when you come back in,-I just want to spend-7 a few. minutes getting through these rel'ated issues for_three 'I 8 and four. So, if you want to think about'them -- have ideas .
9 for things that yo,1 do. And we will get through them really 10 quickly, then we will go back to the normal agenda. You 11 could even write them down. That would be fine. I don't-12 want to miss some of these things and then have a shot in 13 the dark.
14 MR. MILLER: Now, since I opened the workshop,_for 15 the day, I guess I have to assert my authority here and call 16 the first session to adjournment. So, see you tomorrow 17 morning,_ bright and early, 8:30.
-18 [Whereupon, at 5:08 o' clock p.m., on Monday, 19 November 16th, 1992~, the above-entitled meeting was 20 recessed, to reconvene at 8:30 o' clock:a.m., on Tuesday, 21- November 17th, 1992.]
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