ML062830127
| ML062830127 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Kewaunee  |
| Issue date: | 09/04/2002 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 3-2002-004, FOIA/PA-2006-0113 | |
| Download: ML062830127 (63) | |
Text
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEk':
6 -- x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:
8 Interview of : Docket No.
9 : 3-2002-004 10 11 ------- x 12 Wednesday, September 4, 2002 13 14 Radisson Hotel and i5 Conference Center 16 2040 Airport Drive 2.7 Green Bay, WI 54313 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted 20 at 4:00 p.m.
21 22 BEFORE:
23 Special Agent Mary Kay Fahey informatioffn th record was deleted Special Agent Scott Kryk in accordance wit the Freedom of Information Act, exempions. EXHIL1T FOIA- "0' aeIQ' 0 20 , NEAL R. GROSSZ r.--_0 A**,
2 1 P RO C E E D I N G S 2 4:00 p.m.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, for the record, 4 this is an interview of who is a former 5 Project Manager for Day and Zimmer an Nuclear Power 6 Systems at the Kewaunee Nuclear Power Plant during the 7 fall outage of 2001. Today's date September 4 th, 8 2002; the time is approximately 4:00 p.m.
9 This interview is being conducted at the 10 Radisson Hotel and Conference Center in Green Bay, 11 Wisconsin. My name is Mary Kay Fahey. I am a Special 12 Agent with the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Comnission's 13 Office of Investigations in Region III. Also present 14 during this interview is Scott Kryk who is also a 15 Special. Agent with the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory 16 Commission's Office of Investigations in Region III.
17 The interview is being recorded on a Sony cassette 18 recorder with a backup Sony microcasette. The subject 19 matter of this interview is a fitness-for-duty concern 20 at the Kewaunee Nuclear Power Plant during a refuel 21 outage in 2001.
22 - please raise your right hand.
23 Do you swear that the information you are. about to 24 give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 25 truth, so help you God?
NEAL R. GROSS
3 1
2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, some 3 background questions. Date of birth?
4 5 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Social Security 6 number?
7 8 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Rome address.
9 10 11 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Home telephone 12 number.
13 14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: -Current employer.
15 ybaY Zimmerman NPSI.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Where are you i7 employed now?
18 Back and forth between the 19 Point Beacl Nuclear Plant and Kewaunee Nuclear Plant.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And your current 21 title?
22 tamfitter. Foreman.
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And do you have a 24 number at work where you can be reached?
25 o*,.. the only number that I NEA R. GROSS
4 1 could be reached at would be, if you calle 2 office, which would b e j 3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and 4 4 being - -
5 6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and is he your 7 supervisor .now?
8 Yes, he is.
9 SPECIAL AGE T FAHEY: And is he employed 10 by Day and Zimmerman?
.Yes, he is.
12 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Were you 13 employed by Day Zimmerman at Kewaunee in 2001?
14 N W- Yes.
15 SPECIAL AGE T FAHEY: Do you know which 16 dates, roughly?
17 o, I don't. I 18 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: The outage was in 19 the Fall, but I know a number of employees were hired 20 prior to that.
21 1 would say June to December.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And- what was your 23 title then?
24 Project Superiintendent.
25 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And -roughly what NEAL R. GROSS'
5 1 were your duties? Briefly, I guess.
2 I oversa<. and 3 -oiland they oversaw the craft below us, all 4 crafts.
5 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so all 6 contract employees?
7 w7 All contractors for NPS, all 8 trades.
9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and who did 10 you report to?
11 My boss was N tbut 12 my contact at the nuclear plant was 13 14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And was this 15 site?
16 No, he was not. He was at 17 Point Beach.
18 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And was he a Day and 19 Zimmerman employee?
20 Yes. He is the Site Manager 21 for both sites.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. And why did 23 you leave Kewaunee in 2001?
24 Layoff.
25 SPECIAL AGENT. FAHEY: Was the job NEAL R. GROSS
6 1 finished?
2 Yes.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so you weren't 4 terminated for cause or any reason like that.
5 I No.
6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. I'm going to 7 ask you some general questions about your General 8 Employee Training when you arrived at Kewaunee, if you 9 can recall. Do you remember if you attended that 10 training?
11 Yes.
12SPECIAL NT FAHEY: Okay. All employees 13 attended training?
14 I believe so.
15 S A NT FAHEY: Okay, were you 16 tested?
17 For which specifically?
18 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: For the G.E.T.
19 Yes.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Did you pass 21 the test?
22 Yes.
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and were you 24 given access then?
25 Yes.
NEAL R. GROSS
7 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, do you recall 2 whether there was any training on fitness for duty?
3 Yes, there was.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and was it on 5 Day and Zimmerman policy or NMC policy.
6 NNC.
7 SPECIAL AGENT .FAHEY: Okay, and NMC, for 8 the record, is Nuclear Management Company which is the 9 owner of the Point Beach and Kewaunee Power Plants.
10 Ys 11 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. What is your 12 understanding of what a Day and Zimmerman employee 13 should do if they feel another employee might be unfit 14 for duty?
15 If you're in the field, I 16 would say you contact the supervisor.
17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Day and Zimmerman 18 supervisor or NMC supervisor?
19 1 would say you'd contact your 20 immediate supervisor.
21 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. And did you 22 feel -your answer would have been the same back. in
- 23. 2001?
24 Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so there's NEAL R. GROSS COURT RFPnRT=PeQ Ain -*....
8 1 been no change in policy as far as you know.
2 (No response.)
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay.- And what 4 about the five-hour rule? Do you know what that is?
5 y understanding is you're not 6 allowed to drink before five hours, but I've always 7 argued that thing, because that's not really what it 8 is. It's you have to blow below .04. They say five-9 hour rule but it's actually, you have to blow -- they 10 set the monitor at .04 and you have to blow below 11 that.
12 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, so are 13 you saying that technically you could have a drink 14 within five hours as long as youfre 15I would say that the five-hour 16 rule means you canttdrink within five hours, but I 17 feel that if you drank from after work until two in 18 the morning, I would say that, you would blow over .04, 19 so I would say *the five-hour rule really doesn't 20 account -- if they say five-hour rule, which means you 21 can't drink before five hours, but you still-also have 22 to blow below .04.
23 SPECIAL*AGENT KRYK: So you're saying you 24 could have your last drink seven or eight hours ago, 25 but you could still be well above a .04. Q//
NEAL R. GROSS (YITOr-0r*DT=0C A&MI~r,A
9 1 .I believe you could be, yes.
2 .SPECIAL AGENT KRYK: Yes.
3 (Whereupon the proceedings went off the 4 record.)
5 SPECIAL AGENT KRYK: Okay, back on the 6 record.
7 1 never agreed that you should 8 state five-hour rule like they always did because 9 people get misled into thinking that it's five hours, 10 if they've stopped drinking at two in the morning they 11 can go to work for'seven. And that's when they told 12 me that well, actually, you still have to blow below 13 .04. And I said, "well then why don't you state it 14 that way?"
- 15. SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and is the .04 16 in the policy?
17 .It doesn't state it in there 18 but that's what I was told when I was arguing the 19 five-hour rule because I can't believe you can drink 20 all day and as long as you stop five hours before you 21 go into work, what if you had 20 beers. And so five 22 hours to me wouldn't apply.
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And someone at the 24 plant would argue that they would catch it.
25 . They said well adtually, along .
NFAI P .pnQ
10 1 with the five hours, you still have to blow below .04.
2 So next morning, if I quit at eleven o'clock and I 3 blew above .04, I would definitely get in trouble.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Have there ever been 5 any occasions where this has been tested?
6 Not that I'm aware of.
7 SPECIAL iGENT FAHEY: Okay. Do you know 8
9 10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: How do you know him?
Been friends with him probably 12 for 15 years. When I got into the trade in '88 is 13 when I first met out at the nuke plant.
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And the trade being 15 steamfitter.
16 009" Yes.
17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, are you a 18 Union member also?
19 -. Yes, I am.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, whihh union?
21 Local 400.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, that's out of 23 Green Bay.
24 Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT KRYK: Have you got a name II NFAI P rM0
ii 1 for that union?
2 Plumbers and Steamfitters 3 Local 400.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Then did you work 5 with *Kewaunee in 2001?
6 Yes.
7 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: What title did he 8 hold at the time?
9 I He was a Foreman at the time.
10 And then he moved to basically General Foreman over 11 the ISI Program..
12 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And what does "ISI" 13 mean?
14 I don't know what the.ISI 15 stands for; I just know they inspect pipe, they buff 16 areas and UT them (phonetic). And he's in charge of 17 that program for as long as I can ever remember out 18 there.
19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and do you 20 know who hel eported to in the Day and 21 Zimmerman chain of command?
22 In the Day and Zimmerman, it 23 would have been 24 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: What about when he 25 was the ISI Foreman-? Same?
12 1 He would still report to 2 but technically he was working for i 3 of Kewaunee Nuclear Power Plant.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. How would you 5 characterize your relationship wit*
- 6 Are you friends outside work?
7 Yes.
8 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and can you 9 explain that. I mean, do you --
10se 11 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Visit each others' 12 homes and know each others' families?
13 Yes.
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and socialize 15 outside of work hours?
16 Yes.
17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And when did you 18 first become aware of a fitness for duty concern 1,9 involving 20 After I was gone from 21 Kewaunee, I'm going to say within a month or so, I got 22 a phone call from Hal Walker.
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Who is he?
24 HHe- was an investigator that 25 was investigaUng some issues at Kewaunee.
13 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Were these welding 2 issues?
3 When he talked to me it was, 4 about five minutes, not even a five-minute 5 conversation. He asked me about the welding issues 6 and I explained to him that out of all steamfitters, 7 I'm one of the few people who does not weld. I said 8 the only thing I know about the incident that you're 9 talking about is at Point Beach you have to take a 10 weld test to be able to weld on structural and at 11 Kewaunee we have a state-certified test that a lot of 12 our fitters take and that card (phonetic) was accepted 13 at Kewaunee as an acceptable to weld on structural.
14 At Point Beach you take a test; at Kewaunee you do 15 not.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and did he ask 17 you about the fitness for duty concern?
18 Second part he asked me, he 19 said, "I want to talk to you about thee 20 incident." And I kind of laughed and he said, "Oh, 21 you know* I said '"Yes, I've been friends with 22 or a long time." I said "this issue's come up 23 before" I said, "but I seeM five minutes in the 24 morning and five minutes at night.. When he comes in 25 he walks in the trailer and says "good morning, NFAI P r.PPA(zX
14 1 good mor ning and at the end of the day he says 2 "goodbye I said the two people you should be 3 talking to is WIN from the NMC because that's 4 whoih1 5 basicall 6 time. And then I said who ist 7 Containment Coordinator, would be another guy from the 8 NMC that you should talk to becaus has to deal 9 with him every day to coordinati action in the 10 containment building. And he said "Okay, thank you."
11 And tha t was pretty much the extent of the 12 conversa tion.
13 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Now, when he 14 asked you about the incident, how did 15 you know what he was going to ask you about?
16 Because the rumors -- I'd been.
.17 away from work.for a month, but the rumors were going 18 around. I mean steamfitters talk.
19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Rumors about what?
20 You have to tell us for the record.
21 Oh, okay.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY.: Don't make 23 assumptions, even though I know what you're going to 24 say, you need to put it on the record.
25 ' The guy talked t 3 and he NFAI R r, Pr) -qq /
15 1 was saying that he was being interviewed. had 2 been interviewed. Other people at the plant had been 3 interviewed about this situation and basically I was 4 just kind of surprised that no one had ever really 5 talked to me about it. mentioned n*had it; 6 *had mentioned it to me. So I knew that 7 there was things going on out there, but 'there was 8 also other issues that rumors were floating around 9 that, you know, like myself would not be able to go 10 back there. But I was never really worried about it 11 because, I just wasn't worried about it. I knew I 12 would be able to go back.
13 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, did you tell 14 the investigator, Mr. Walker, anything that wasn't 15 true?
16 Like I said, I talked to him 17 for two minutes. I told him about what I knew about 18 welding and I told him he needed to talk 19 and I never really got into any 20 specifics about And he said "Oh, 21 thank you." Because I'd never dealt with*
- 22 basically, other than "good morning, good night."
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so he never 24 asked you if you raised any concerns about his 25 fitness, anything like that?
NEAL R. GROSS
16 1 No, he did not.
2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. Let's go 3 back to when you first heard rumors about 4 fitness for duty. And maybe I'm characterizing that 5 wrong. Smell of alcohol o I don't 6 know how it was characterized to you, but while you 7 were working at Kewaunee did anybody raise a concern 8 to you about M 11 9 Yes.
10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, do you 11 remember when?
12 1 would sa as probably 13 there couple of weeks and I don't remember who it was 14 because it happened when I, got investigated when I 15 went off the Point Beach days. I got called in for an 16 interview. And like I told them, I didn't really 17 know, I couldn't remember who it was because there 18 were so many things going on at that time out at 19 Kewaunee. And the individual that came to me said 20 that there had been a lot of things about-riofver 21 the past 25 years. My uncle used to be the boss out 22 there.
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Out where?
24 At Kewaunee. And he had, many 25 2S times people hadtiwim said, you know, so
17 1 he's been tested for fitness for duty and like I said, 2 so when Hal Walker asked me about it, it was just 3 funny because I heard these stories when I was just an 4 apprentice, 15 years ago.
5 And my understanding was *had 6 something wrong with his throat, or whatever. But
.7 this individual said since 9/11 happened, you know, 8 just a friendly reminder that, you know, people had 9 always talked about so just tell hirr, you know, 10 be on your best behavior because things are different.
11 And that's what I relayed t and he said 12 you know me. You know that I1m in bed by 9:00." I 13 said I don't have a concern with you. I'm 14 just telling you what-somebody had said to me, that 15 they're giving you a heads up that because of all the 16 problems, so-called problems in the past, that you've 17 been. tested before and now there's a hundred new 18 security officers, I mean because I used to work out 19 there in Security. I mean, I don't even recognize the 20 people. So they were just basically giving, wanting 21 me to let now and I would have told anybody the 22 same thing. But they just happened to come to me 23 about 24 SPECIAL. AGENT FAHEY: Okay, do you recall 25 if it was a welder, was it a worker, or a security NEAL R. GROSS
18 1 guard?
2 0, it was somebody from, it 3 was a plant personnel. remember going to a meeting 4 and I don't know who it was. I don't remember 5 because, like I said, it was so long ago and there 6 were so many other things going on that that was the 7 furthest thing from my mind because I've never had a 8 concernwith4
- 9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so somebody, 10 an NMC emplo ee, you think.
Ii I would say that more than 12 likely it was a plant employee because it was not an 13 NPS employee. I couldn't say, I don't remember if it 14 was another contractor or, could have been somebody 15 from Bechtel for all I know.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, did anyone 17 ever tell you directly that they feel-t- .9 was 18 not fit for duty?
19 . 0No.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, now you 21 mention that and -mentioned 22 something to you.
23 This is couple months later.
24 This is after the H4I Walker interview.
25 SPECIAL AGENT"FAHEY: Okay, ;so&this is in
19 1 roughly, is it 2002 *then?
2 Yes. Correct. This is when all the rumors were going on and this is where 4*
SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, now when 5 this person raised the concern to you aboutM 6 was it pre-outage, do you remember?
7 I would say yes, it was, 8 because gotten there. I would, you
- 9. know. And like I said, it wasn't really a concern.
10 It was more of a friendly reminder. That's -all they 11 said. That's what they told me.
12 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Did you have any 13 concern about UJot being fit for duty?
14 Never had a problem with 15 16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Did you ever 17 discuss it wit 18 19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY:
20 21 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, not at that-22 time? But you have subsequently had some 23 conversat ii 24 WCorrect.
25 ECIAL AGENT '-FAHEY: Okayr- So at the NEAL R. GROSS
20 1 time you're working at Kewaunee, you've never 2 discussed this comment that was brought up to you with 3
4 No, I didn't feel it was his, 5 needed tokw 6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Did any of 7 the welders! and 8 ever approach you about not wanting to work for 9
10 No. You're talking about 11 while we'were at --
12 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Kewaunee.
a Working there.
13 14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Yes.
15 >5 No they did not.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Di 17 ever tell you that any employees had raised fitness i8 for duty concerns about o him?
- ' No.*
19 20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Did he ever tell you 21 that welders refused to work for 22 No..
23 SPECIAL AG NT FAHEY: Okay. And were you 24 subsequently, well, let's talk about the interview.
25 Can you go off the record for NIAL R. GROSS - -
21
.1 one second?
2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Sure. Hold on a 3 second.
4 (Whereupon the proceedings went off the 5 record.)
6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY.: Okay, we're back on 7 the record. All right. We're going to talk about 8 this chronologically. Subsequently, the licensee's 9 investigator, Mr. Walker, contacted you. You gave him 10 a statement. Over the telephone?
11 . Yes. I think I said it was 12 probably a two-minute conversation. However long it 13 took me to tell him I didn't know nothing about 14 welding other than you take a.test and don't take a 15 test and I told him that the people he really needed 16 to talk to were and 17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. And, were 18 other people contacted by the same investigator?
19 y understanding.
20 "had all been interviewed by Hal' 21 Walker and they were telling me, like I said; anywhere 22 from half-hour to two. hours and' that's why I was 23 surprised that, with me it was a thirty-second 24 conversation and that, being that I was the Head guy 25 there I was surprised that no one had ever talked to
22 1 me ever about any of these issues, other than, like I 2 said, a thirty-second conversation with Hal Walker.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Hold on a minute, 4 let's check this tape.
5 (Whereupon the proceedings went off the 6 record.)
7 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, we're 8 back on the record. All right, and when you say
're going to have to be specific --
9 10 Oh, I'm sorry.
12 SPECIAL AG-NT FAHEY: --. because there's 12 a* too, involved in this.
13 And I also heard that name, 14 and, like I said, that was the first time I heard his 15 name was about a month ago also. Bu'_ is the 16
- was speaking of up to this point.
.17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. So everybody 18 talked about it at work that this investigator had 19 contacted them.
Actually, I got the phone 20 21 calls from. ,an -nd, like I say, I stopped by 22 probably twice a month, minimum, and from 23 talking to him on the phone. All the times I've 24 heard about any of this stuff was all phone 25 conversations. It was never brought.to6;my attention
23.
I at work.
2 SPECIAL. AGENT FAHEY: Okay.
3 This is all in 2002.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and roughly 5 January,,February?
6 I1, 1 went back out there 7 in, I think, April 5' , so I would say February and 8 March, maybe.
9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, you went back 10 out where?
121 Back out to the nuclear 12 plants.
13 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY:. Was your access put 14 on hold?
15 I had to go talk to Darlene 16 about a different issue, so yes, I actually --
17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Darlene Peters?
18 Darlene Peters. I went out 19 there a week before I was supposed to go out there for 20 the client to interview with her and that lasted five 21 minutes because she said that she *hated to have me 22 come in there because it was 'a misunderstanding, So.
23 It had nothing to do with this issue though; it Was a 24 separate issue.
25 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: So you never had NEAL R. GROSS
24 1 your access on hold.
2 SFor a different issue. But I 3 never, when I got to the plant that was already 4 cleared up. When I came to work it was already 5 cleared up.
6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay.
7 SPECIAL AGENT KRYK: For this issue was 8 your access ever put on hold?
9 10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And were you aware 11 that a number of other employees had their access put 12 on hold over this issue?
13 M Yes.
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Do you know 15 why?
16 Other than the rumors that I
- _"Owl 17 heard, I heard that some were on hold because of the 18 issue some were on hold because of 19 welding and that's why I contacted Darlene a few times 20 because I heard my access was denied and I couldn't go 21 back out there and she said "that's not true."
22 And then it got into my separate issue and 23 then she said, she asked if I could come out there 24 .ahead of time to interview with her and then it was 25 like a five-minute interview and then'..it was taken
25 1 care of. My issue.
2 But the other issues, I heard anything 3 from one guy told the investigator that he didn't feel 4 it was his obligation to be babysitting people. I 5 heard that these people were welding on stuff wrong.
6 I heard that some people turned i nd 7 some people are saying they turned him in, some .people 8 are saying they didn't turn him in. It was strictly 9 all rumors because I was not on the job site at that 10 time. I was at home.
11 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and then what 12 was the next that you heard about the issue?
13 1 went tom toI s 14 apartment to talk to him about seeing if I was going 15 to be able to come back out *there for NPS without 16 having a hassle.
17 And he had explained to me that he figured 18 out who had turned iM. And I said 19 "Oh, really." And he said "Yes." Because when he-20 went back from Kewaunee to Point Beach he told me he 21 was investigated by Hal Walker like for nine days or 22 something.
23 And he said during his interview he, what 24 he stated to me was, during his interview, Hal Walker 25 told two guys are claiming that -they came to L,=^, D (n t* *"-\ /
26 1 :and said that they would not work for 2 because they thought he was a drunk and had 3 been drinking.
4 And he said he remembered and 5 coming to him and I said "Well, what did you tell Hal 6 Walker?'" And he said "I told him that they never came 7 to me." So that was the extent of the conversation.
8 The next day --
9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Didn't you ask him 10 why he would say that?
11 MI M Like I said, I was more 12 concerned with being able to go back out there, like 13 I said, and at that time I was away from the whole 14 incident, like I said because I wasn't directly 15 involved with it.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: So you didn't ask 17 him why.
. .. .*" " No I did not.
18 19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEYY Okay.
20 So then, I went to*
21 s house the next day and I said to him that 22 I might have figured out who told. on you because I 23 said I was by apartment, I said, and he was 24 telling me that when he was interviewed by Hal Walker, 25 that two guys claimed they came to him..-
NEAL R. GRnCr..RF
/
27 1 An stated to me that he 2 had talked to a week ago and he already knew 3 that. had told him exactly the same thing. And 4 I said "Oh, okay." So I pretty much just figured, oh 5 well, okay, knows who it is.
6 Then, after that, had called me, 7 after I had got, because when I got home fro s 8 apartment I was telling what was going on, my 9 wife, and she said "Oh really." I said "Yes." Then 10 all of a sudde called me and he was saying 11 that he was interviewed. He wanted to know what was 12 going on out there. I said I don't know because 13 I don't work for NPS no more. I'm basically laid off; 14 I'm at home." I said "Why, what's up?" And he said 15 that they denied him access because he's saying that' 16 he told that he wouldn't work foriend that 17 i saying that he would. I said, "Well that's 18 funny, because I was just a s apartment," and 19 I told him what had told me.
20 The ad his lawyer call me and he was 21 going over something a month ago when I got 22 interviewed when I went back out there. Kind of jump 23 around here. They had asked me about this affidavit 24 also and like I told them, as you can plainly see, it 25 is not signed.
- . .6 OSS Gm l*VW NEAL
28 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Who asked 2 you?
3 I was interviewed by Darlene 4 Peters and Fdon't remember the gentleman's name. I 5 believe he was from the NMC office in Hudson, but I 6 don't remember his name. And he was saying that 7 "well, do you realize that conversation was taped?"
8 I said "Well, that may be," I said, but the reason why 9 I did not sign this, I said, if you listen to the 10 tape, if there is one, I said, you will hear me tell 11 him, because he kept saying things, and I said "Well 12 that's not really what he said." And I told him, I
- 13. said "I'll tell you what. Why don't you send me an 14 affidavit," I said, "and if it's what I know, I will 15 sign it," and it wasn't what I had said, so I didn't 16 sign it because when I was telling, like I just told 17 you, that from what g told me and whatis* told 18 me that they said they wouldn't work for4ecause 19 he was a drunk and they thought he had been drinking.
20 The guy that was interviewing me said 21 "well, are you sure we're not going to hear on the 22 tape that you smelled alcohol?" I said "I'm going to 23 tell you what. When they called me on this," I said, 24 "it had been a couple of months since I' d been there.
25 I don't remember if ctually said-. 'alcohol' or KMAI 0 r Pr*
29 1 if he said 'drinking,' or was it 'drunk' and 'had been 2 drinking,' or if they smelled alcohol and they thought 3 he'd, was a drunk. I don't remember the exact. word."
4 I said "You're asking me to try to remember what he 5 said." I said "All I could tell you," I said, "I 6 believe they said they wouldn't work for. him because 7 he was a drunk and had been drinking. If it says I 8 said 'alcohol,'" I said, "that was'a couple months ago 9 so maybe that is what I said." But I said "but you're 10 asking me to try to remember," I said, "I can just 11 tell you what I think he said. That's what he told 12 me. I don't remember if it was 'alcohol' or if it was 13 'drinking.'"
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Do you know where 15 NMC got a copy of that affidavit?
16 0h I'.m guessing that~
17 lawyer sent that because he still is denied 18 access so I'm guessing that, you know, they're'trying 19 -- you know I hear rumors that they've got an $8.5 20 million lawsuit and they're suing and they're 21 suing everybody so I don't know.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: I hate to stop you 23 but I have to back up here. Do you have any idea of 24 the dates you went t s apartment and had this 25 conversation with him?
.. r- A I r% me%#%^
50 I! 30 1 Like I 2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Were you off work at 3 the time?
4 Yes, because I was getting 5 ready to go back out ttere. I wanted to make sure
- 6. there wasn't going to be no problem, so I'm guessing 7 it probably was, you know 8 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And you went back to 9 work in April?
10 Yes, see, that's what I said.
ii This affidavit says June, but I want to say, (to 12 himself) January, February. I'm sure I went back 13 April 5 "h. So I would say it was closer to 14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: A week or two before 15 that?
I 16 I, No, I would say in March, to 17 the best I can remember. I don't remember the exact 18 dates; that's the thing. I know when I --
19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Was there snow on 20 the ground?
- Oh, man, I 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: (laughter) You don't 23 remember.
24 No.
25 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. Anything II
31 1 to place w:hen
- called you or when you talked 2 to ,N I mean, can you, anything mean anything 3 to you as far as recalling a date?
4 I just know -- At the time 5 when all t1.*is stuff was going on, like I said, all the 6 rumors, pecople calling me up, we've had a lot of, I 7 had a lot'-Df. Can we go off the record a second?
8 (Whereupon the proceedings went off the 9 record.)
10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Back on the record.
11 All right, and off the record you just said you can't 12 remember dates, but you can remember the order in 13 which the events occurred. Okay. So you go back to
.14 work in April?
15 ** Yes.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And then you have 17 this phone call fro 's attorney, or is that 18 before you go back to work?
19 It was before I went back to 20 work.
21 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And he phoned you at 22 home?
23 Yes.
24 S CIAL AGENT FAHEY: And did he tell you 25 what the purpose was for asking you the-questions?
32 1 iHe was calling me because he, 2 because,0 ad told him that he had just talked to me 3 and that I told him wha had said.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so it was 5 within a few days, maybe, of the conversation you had 6 withl*
7 I would say.
8 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. Can we, 9 and we have a copy of this affidavit here that I'm 10 showing you. It's unsigned, undated. Take a look at 11 it if you would and tell me what's in the affidavit 12 that you do not think is accurate, an accurate 13 reflection of what you may have said. Or, if.you're 14 not sure without hearing a tape of it.
15 Well, like I said, the first 16 one's true. The second one, when it says 17fo ed me that he spoke to Hal Walker about 18 allegations that was showing up to 19 work smelling of alcohol." All *told me was, 20 like I said before, that Hal Walker had interviewed 21 him about, or about:iand that it 22 was specifically that two people had come to him and 23 said that they didn't want to work for MMIecause 24 thought he had been drinking and he was a drunk. So 25 it was basically just that. conversation that I had
33 1 told you. I don't, *ever said that Hal Walker 2 spoke to him about allegations of showing up to 3 work smelling like alcohol. It was one specific 4 situation.
5 It's not stated right. told me that 6 he told Hal Walker no one had reported any concerns 7 about ,ato him. He told Hal Walker that 8 that specific incident did not happen, that those two 9 guys came to him. And like I said and keep saying, 10 "alcohol," if I said "alcohol" back then, maybe that ii is what he said, but that's not what I remember him 12 saying, was "alcohol," because that's one of the 13 questions they kept asking me "Are you sure he said 14 'alcohol.'"
15 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And you're talking 16 about item three there on the affidavit.
17 Yes. (reads to himself) He 18 never,. M never said that he specifically asked if 19 lialm orreported*
20 He said two individuals are stating that they came to 21 him. Now he never, Hal Walker never used and 22 *
- whengp name told me the conversation. He 23 said two individuals are, told me after that he
- 24. remembered
- and oming to him. Hal Walker 25 never once mentionedAIM and name whe
34 1 was telling me what Hal Walker said.
2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, and 3 that's item four.
4 ( That's item four.
5 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: On your affidavit.
6 Hold on; I've got to switch this. Okay.
7 , I ) And then Item Number Five, 8 like I said admitted to me that and 9 2
- had in fact reported to him that they smelled 10 alcohol on.
11 Like I said said that they came to 12 him and said they wouldn't work for him, that they 13 thought he'd been drinking and was a drunk problem.
14 Again, I don't know if he said "smelled alcohol" or if 15 that's what they said. I don'.t remember that. I 16 remember him saying "drinking" and "was a drunk."
17 That's -Item Number Five.
18 And Item Number Six, again it says, you 19 know, "further told me that he denied to Hal Walker 20 that others and either 2formed 2o him. He 21 just told, he told me that he told Hal Walker that 22 they never came to him, meaning the two individuals 23 that Hal Walker was talking about. Two individuals 24 had not gotten to him.
25 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, and "he" KIMAt M -Dn4
35 J meaningliMM ý-M 2
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Right. All right, 4 so
- just figured out, he recalled now that these 5 guys had 6 That's what he had told me, 7 but now, okay, that's what he had told me.
- 8. SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. Now, is 9 telling you that he had recent recollection or 10
- told you that he knew back then that these guys 11 came to him and.
12 >* told me, like I said, 13 this is after we had all left Kewaunee, this was when 14 I went out there to find out if I could go back out 15 there. He had told me that he remembered, because he 16 had been interviewed after I had been gone from 17 Kewaunee, so he was already back at Point Beach and 18 I'm guessing it probably was a month later when he was 19 interviewed. And he said that when Hal Walker was 20 talking to him he remembered that situation because he 21 remembere3. anlc coming to him.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And, we're talking, 23 again, about 24 25 SPECIAL AGENT. FAHEY: Okay. And you
36 1 actually were sent a copy of this affidavit and asked 2 to sign it.
3 UThis is correct.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: By John McQuidx 5 (phonetic), the attorney?
- ~Yes.
6 7 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And you did not do 8 that.
9 )This is true.
10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, because you 11 felt uncomfortable that it was an exact 12 There was not and, like I 13 said, it, this is not what I had said thatiMlsaid.
14 The reason why I didn't sign it is because, like I 15 said, it's not what I think I know. And, like I said, 16 this other guy interviewed me. He said "well, hey did 17 you know it was taped?" I said "No, I did not." And 18 he said "Well, --
19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: They didn' t ask your 20 permission to tape the conversation?
21 And like I told that guy, he 22 may have, it was months ago.' I mean, like I said, I 23 was the tail end of this whole investigation and it 24 wasn't until I was back working there that all of a 25 sudden they came to me and asked me, t-he first time NEAL R. GROSS
37 1 they asked me, when I got interviewed, it was, "I want 2 to do a follow-up'interview on your conversation with 3 Hal Walker." And I said "Conversation with Hal 4 Walker?" And Darlene's like "Well, remember he called 5 you like in December, or whatever?" And I'm like 6 "You're talking about a two-minute conversation with 7 Hal Walker on the telephone?" And he said "Yes," and 8 he asked me one question about the welding and then he 9 went directly into the 'situation.
10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: There was another 11 guy with Darlene Peters at the time, you don't 12 remember who it was.
13 (I I don't remember his name, but 14 I believe he was the, -it would be like Darlene's boss 15 out of Hudson.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Could it have been 17 Randy Cleveland?
18 I believe that is the name.
19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and do you 20 know why they wanted to bring this up again?
21 He told me they were doing an 22 investigation and that, he asked me if I wondered why
.23 he was, they waited so long to talk to me and he said 24 they were doing some interviews and they thought that 25 after their interviews that I would have the answers Sir-At M r~mr~ea z
38 1 that they needed. And like I expressed to them, the 2 same as I'm telling you, I can only tell you, it's all 3 second-hand information, it's all what he told me, he 4 told me, he told me.
5 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay.
6 I wasn't there for the actual 7 "SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, except for your, I'm interested in your conversation with 8
9 and your conversation wi h 10 11 My conversation with 12 like I told you, is about the 13 incident, is exactly the conversation that we had, but 14 we talked about other issues that night. It wasn't 15 like I went there specifically to find-out abou 16 because that just came up in all the things 17 that were going on and, like I said, I was more 18 concerned with if I was going to be able to come back
.19 out there and be able to work out there.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Did seem 21 concerned that he had told the investigator something 22 that wasn't true?
23 No, because, like I said, it 24 was just kind of like just flying through the 25 incidents that happened out there and, :like I said,
39 1 about me getting, being able to come back out there.
2 He was just saying that he. had all these interviews 3 all the time and 4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: But at this time, 5 several of these.welders' had their access pulled.
6 This is true.
- 7. SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Based on wha i 8 had told the investigator, or maybe that's my spin on 9 it.
10 That is a.-2i-rrh then I would 11 take.
12 (laughter) 13 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Thank you. I'm just 14 wondering, and it, didn't exhibit any concern 15 that somebody might find out that he had not been 16 truthful, or 17 I don't know that. I would be 18 putting words in mouth. In my opinion, I 19 would say that he didn't act like, you know "don't say 20 nothing that I told you anything" or, you know, was no 21 like he was all worried about it. Just like, he was, 22 we talked about the computers, we talked about the 23 welding, we talked about, It was just 24 kind of like conversation, conversation, conversation.
25 He said there shouldn't be. a problem with me coming L -A I M~ r% M %r-
40 1 back out there. I wasn't allowed to be a Supervisor 2 for NPS for a year and there was no problem with me 3 coming back. But that was about the other issue.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. All right, 5 would you, and have you subsequently had conversation 6 with about your interview here today with us?
7 I have not told anybody that 8 I was being interviewed by you.
9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay.
10 . Other than my 11 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. When did you 12 become aware of the NRC investigation?
13 an had said, we 14 were working out there during the outage, andat 15 and had had mentioned to me at his home
.16 that he had an interview with you and had said 17 that he had an interview we'll say, next Tuesday with 18 the NRC, and that was when I knew they were being 19 interviewed. As far as like nd them guys, I, the 20 only person I ever knew.they were interviewed by was 21 Hal Walker.
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and do you
.23 know what nMtold me?
24 ever really said other 25 than,. you know, that he- .didn't quite understand LICAI 0 -. ' /I'Q
41 1 everything that was going on. And had told me 2 kind of what he had talked to you about. I mean, I 3 don't remember specifics, just that, you know, he just 4 said, he had told you, he said they might be calling 5 you because he had used my name and he said that he 6 had told you that* had, the same thing I had 7 mentioned',. thatT had mentioned that to him over 8 the phone and he said if he had talked to 9 because M called him because he was concerned what 10 hMad said. This is telling me II this now, like I said, I wasn't on the phone with 12 O* }o I'm just, and iwas saying that he told 13 ** that he told the truth. And I said, "well, what K
14 did he say when you told him that he had told you that 15 on the phone?". He said, "well what wý7s he. going to 16 say, I told tjhe truth." I said "Oh."
17 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: dkay, and then you 18 indicated a little bit earlier in our conversation 19 *about figuring out who had reported Was 20 there some concern about,. I mean, if an employee 21 questions somebody else's fitness for duty, is that 22 something to get somebody in trouble about?
23 I would say that in the fitter 24 trade, I wou say that most of the time guys "would 25 try to take care of their-buddy. I mean,' you know, if KIPA I P (MpfliczL.
42 1 he was your partner, or, I would say in general that 2 most fitters, I can't speak for everybody else, I 3 would say fitters stick together.
4 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so it would be 5 kind of frowned upon to report somebody else.
6 I would say yes. I would say 7 it would be.
8 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and did 9 seem upset that someone had reported him?
10 He was upset because that, he 11 had said, he had been 9oing on for 25 years. It isn't 12 the first time that anybody's ever questioned but he's 13 passed every, he' s passed Breathalyzers in the 14 morning, he's passed them in the afternoon, he's never 15 failed, any of them, so he was concerned that his 16 character was being questioned.
17 And, like I said, in conversations with 18 L; . *nd, like I said, I mean I'm not trying to get 19 anybody in' trouble here, but in .conversation with 20 like I said that, he said that what he, the 21 same thing I had said aboul and he had *said that 22 he would: defend and :oday, and 231 today for turning them in that they had 24 said that to because tol, that. He 25 said but in the same aspect.,. I would t-urn around and
43 1 sue them tomorrow because them accusing him when he 2 didn't feel that they had any reason.
3 But not really like that; that's 4 all just talk with but like I said, he would, 5 I guess I look at it.this whole, and I don't care if 6 it's on the -record or not, this whole interviewing 7 process, you know, and I don't have a problem coming 8 here, but like I, I guess I look at it as, okay, if 9 r3and ay they went tos-Ii and maybe I'm 10 getting 'way off base here, but9j7 and*M say they 11 went to -nd I said that they never came iiFn tte evrcm to 12 him.
13 1 could see, if you're on the outside 14 looking in, I would say, well, these guys got laid 15 off, they're mad at Okay, it's -their word 16 against his. But then, you v who 17 doesn't want to get in trouble, he tells the truth, 18 he's got nothing to hide. I mean they interviewed him 19 about his drinking and everything and all, he has no 20 problem saying, hey.
21 But I know ersonally and 22 I know he goes to bed at nine o'clock because IPve 23 ridden with aybe five times in 15 years and 24 every time I've ever called or been by his house, he 25 is going to bea at nine o'clock. -_
,I=AI 0 ( IC- *DC
44 1 But you hav who, if he sayg',
2 told him exactly what I said about that he remembers coming to him, if 777protecte*
- 4 and saved his job by not turning him in, why would 5 Agmla-tick up fo4 an 6 And, I'm just saying, it doesn't make 7 sense to me, and I have nothing to gain by getting 8 in trouble, gettin in trouble, getting 9
- n trouble, because it, the whole situation 10 really means nothing to me only because I wasn't 11 directly involved. And if I had to get involved 12 because of what told me, but when I told 13 that it wasn't like I was trying to get 'in 14 trouble. I was just saying, it doesn't make sense, 15 what do you mean, you have denied access. It didn't 16 make sense to me.
17 That's basically my take on this whole 18 thing. And it's not like I'm trying to get out of 19 anything, or I think this whole thing is ridiculous 20 because I don't think it is. It's important that we 21 get to the bottom of this, but it just seems like all 22 of the situations that have gone on out there, okay, 23 the welding situations, f'rom my .understanding from 24 rumors, these guys are saying this thing and you have 25 one individual saying that that's not true. Then you
45 1 have another situation. You got four people saying 2 one thing and'you have one individual saying something 3 else.
4 And I'm sorry, I don't understand why 5 has never been proven guilty of 6 anything, never took a Breathalyzer, never took 7 nothing, and every time he's ever done it, he's 8 passed, he's gone through, he's done everything 9 anybody's ever asked, but he's denied access, I don't 10 quite understand it, being that he's saying one thing 11 and there's an individual saying another.
12 You got and l who are denied access and you 13 have another individual who's not denied access.
14 I'm sorry, I would think that my access, 15 'naccess, s access,* s access, I would 16 think that either all of us would be denied until the
- 17. investigation is over or we would all have our badge 18 until the investigation's over and then at that time, 19 however the ruling goes, that they would see fit that 20 you would deny the people. I guess I don't understand 21 --
22 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: I have to agree with 23 you on that.
- 24. You know, I don't understand 25 from my standpoint, just being and,.like I said, I'm
46 1 not in your position. I understand from, because we' re 2 all fitters and, like I said, hey, we're all dumb 3 construction workers, and I just don't understand how 4 you have ten people that can't go to work and then you 5 have one individual who is directly involved, but 6 being that I was over everybody, I'm allowed-to go to 7 work. And.I guess I don't quite understand it. And 8 that's why this interview, it just, I mean I have no 9 problem telling the truth, but I guess I don't get how 10 the process works. I mean q ent out there last outage and sat there for 32 days and he did everything 12 they wanted: went for assessments, went here, went 13 there. And today is he any closer to getting his 14 badge? You know he's not.
15 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Was heJ4--*61-*'
16 ever tested at the time this all came up?
17 No.
18 SPECIAL GNT FAHEY: No one ever asked 19 him to 20 No one ever said 21 (End of Tape Side 1) 22 SPECIAL AGENT KRYK: Okay, back on the 23 record.
24
- I guess I look at the whole 25 situation here, and, like I said, I don-ft personally
47 1 feel that I'm even remotely involved in this, other 2 than because of what I heard somebody saying. I 3 can't, you know, I couldn't prove that* said 4 it was just the two of us. But when I was interviewed 5 out at the plant, I didn't like the way the interview 6 process went because they interviewe then they 7 interviewed me, then they interviewe again, and 8 thenMMO ame up to me and said "You basically tried 9 to hang me." I said, I thought he was, "cause you're 10 the only person in the trade that has ever been to my
- 12. apartment."
12 And that kind of bothered me being that 13 Darlene and the guys said make sure you don't say 14 nothing to nobody. And knew exactly who had 15 said it because I'm the only person in our trade and, 16 like I said, I don't want to get -in trouble 17 because is a friend of mine also.
18 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: I'm not following 19 this, been to his apartment.
20 No one in our trade has ever 21 gone to his apartment, so when they interviewed me, 22 they interviewe irectly after me and they said 23 somebody-went to your apartment and is stating that 24 you said this, after you're telling me that you don't 25 even want somebody to see me in this room with you.
48 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Right. Okay.
2 And like I said,41#is a 3 good friend, I mean kids and my kids, we've 4 gone to Bay (phonetic) Beach, he's grilled out at my 5 house. He's afriend of minei& I've only known 6 him' from, M when he came up from a different 7 local. He's a friend of mine. jM s a friend of 8 mine. They're all friends of mine. I don't want to
- 9. see anybody get in trouble, but I just don't 10 understand how some guys are in trouble and some guys ii are not.
12 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Right. Did you 13 explain t* that you just told the truth.
14 I told him that and he goes, 15 and, but then again it's just me and him, standing 16 there, and he said, I said 's but that is what 17 you said." And he said "But you know what I meant.
18 You know how I meant it." I said "They didn't ask rae 19 how you meant it; they said what did you say?" And 20 then that was the end of it; I didn't say "How did you 21 mean it?" or "What do you mean, I 'know -what you 22 meant?" The conversation was, "well you know what I 23 meant." I said "That's not what they asked me; they 24 asked me what you said." And, like I said, how can I 25 make up something that, you know, the next day when
- i] /
49 1 I'm over- g.... I thought I was helping out 2 a friend to tell him who were the two guys that turned 3 him in and he said "I already know that** told me 4 that last week."
5 And like I said, do I personally think 6 anybody should be denied access? I think, and myself 7 included now the way this is going, I think that all 8 of us made mistakes, maybe didn't follow the rules 9 properly. You know what I mean? Like I said, I don't 10 think I'm directly involved, but because I heard this 11 I guess I am involved in this situation being that I 12 was the boss.
13 But I think and~ maybe have 14 handled it wrong, the way they went about it. I don't 15 know. may have, maybe, you know, he handled it 16 wrong. MaybegMhandled it wrong. Maybe we all 17 did. And that's the part that kind of bothers me that 18 some people are being singled out and I guess I don't 19 get it.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY:. All right, but based 21 on what you told me generally at the beginning of the 22 conversation, the .two welders,* an*j* they 23 went to their immediate supervisor and voiced a 24 concern.
25 That is what they told me
50 1 after, that is what they told me in 2002.
2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and that's 3 what). old you in 2002.
4 correct.
5 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Di 6 ever tell you directly that he had a concern about 7 fitness for duty?
8 9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Back in 2001.
10 No, because in our trade you would go to your immediate supervisor, and being that 12 s their immediate supervisor, they know that 13 their next chain is 14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. Would 15 and,ý know about this, about the 16 allegations about back in 2001?
17 From my understanding, is that 18 and, like I said, this is rumor so I haven't never 19 personally talked to him about it, my understanding is 20 they were interviewed by somebody, but I can't say for 21 sure. But I would say that they'.ve heard- the same 22 rumors that everybody else has.
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, but neither of 24 them mentioned anything to you, back in 2001, that 25 there was a concern about
51 1 *No.
2 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. And then, 3 recently, you mentioned aboutI 4 This is correct. /
5 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, tell us about 6 that conversation that you had. And he is a 7 steamfitter?'
8 Yes, now he is also back out 9 at the plant for Westinghouse.
10 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and he was a 11 Supervisor..
12 Him and wer the two 13 Supervisors under me.
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Back in 2001.
15 *Yes.
16 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay.
17 ndt started 18 off on days as Supervisors and ent to nights 19 and ran the night shift andr 3ran the day shift 20 with all the crafts being their responsibility and my 21 responsibility was d* And I would say 22 a month ago that had said that he was surprised 23 that no one's talked to him. He explained to me that 24 he goes, because he was in the office talking to.Mi 25 the day that those two people went to h-i.M-.
52 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: The two people 2 being?
3 MMOM Ljiand)010 And he- said 4 "You were on the phone and you were arguing with 5 somebody." And he said "You turned around and said 6 'take care of it.'" And he said "Then you turned 7 around and. went back to talking." And like I told 8 him, I said "I really don't remember, that." But he 9 seems to remember that situation, but he was a 10 supervisor and he's like me.
12 No one's ever contacted him about it. And 12 he was another Supervisor. There was two Supervisors, 133nd nso he was like I was. I said tell me 14 about it, I mean no one contacted me until three 15 months later. And I said I never had an interview 16 until I was already back working at the nuke plant 17 which was probably six months after the incident.
18 I was just surprised that no one talked to 19 me being that I really didn't think I had any 20 information to give other than- had told me that 21 he went to AW had told me he went 'tot ;
22 ad told me he talked t and basically the 23 same thing that told me, he told him.
24 said that he also heard that this guy turned him in 25 and that guy turned him in. So like -Isaid, it was
53 1 all, those were the type of conversations I had with 2 these people.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Did 4 _)tell you recently that he an4 handled 5 it? Or you told him to take care of it. Did anybody 6 take care of it?
7 That I don't know because I 8 don't remember the siuation, and I would say that no 9 one took care of it. Because in part. with that 10 conversation wit ,or when he was saying 11 that the two, Hal Walker said the two guys came to 12 him, said they wouldn't work fort 2because they 13 thought he was drinking, he was a drunk.
14 And the second half of that conversation 15 was ).*said Hal Walker also stated that you told 16 them, "Don't worry about it. He's going to IS, in two 17 weeks." And that's when aid he remembered11 1.8 and M coming to him. That was the second half of 19 it; the first half was that he wouldn't work for him 20 because he was drinking and said that, "Don't 21 worry about it; he's going to ISI for two weeks, in 22 two weeks."
23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Did eadmit that 24 he said that?
25 That's what .he told me.
54 1 That's what he said that night, That part of the 2 conversation I didn't say, but that is the second half 3 of it, and that's when, like I said, when 4 *sad he remembers that day, but I would say 5 that idn't handle it either. Bu was the 6 Supervisor on days. At that time I think might 7 have been just a GF unde*1li\
8 But like I'said, I don't remember saying 9 that to them, but he said that I was on the phone and 10 I was arguing with somebody. I turned around and said 11 "Take care of it," turned back around and started 12 talking on the phone. I don't remember the situation, 13 so I don't even know if they left the office. I'd be 14 lying to tell you that.
15 I couldn't tell you what they did because 16 i don't remember saying that even, but said that 17 he remembered the day. He said "I'm surprised no one 18 talked to me." And I said, whatever, you know "I 19 don't know why they're not talking to you. I don't 20 know." Because my understanding is I wouldn't have 21 been talking to you either i j~wouldn'thave said 22 that he told you that I was the Supervisor, or 23 something. So, but like I said, I never thought I was 24 directly involved because I really, there were so many 25 rumors going on and, like I.said, I was'more concerned
55 1 what was going on at home. I was just worried if I 2 would be able to go back out there.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. _And tell me 4 again what would know about this 5 incident.
6 . Well, he was my contact for 7 the NMC. He was in the same office as I was. I would 8 say that if knows anything, I would say it's 9 probably rumors, the same thing he had heard. But my, 10 and I don't, I can't say that and him were 1i interviewed.
ed But Ie I believeýW told 12 that he thought was interviewed by 13 somebody.
.14 But I don't know. Like I said, it's all, 15 but is the guy who morked for, and he would 16 be the guy that better then myself, better thaz [
17 better than the guys that worked for 0 on the ISI 18 program, would be the guy that would kno, 19 better than anybody becaub*j has worked for him 20 for, like I said, as long as I can remember, and he 21 has to report too He gets his direct orders from 22 23 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Let me just 24 make it clear for the record. We're not here about 25 wheth pw is fit for duty. 'That' s not our NFAI P rWn5--- . /
56 1 issue. Our issue is about people suspecting someone 2 is unfit for duty, reporting it and no action being 3 taken. Because at the NRC we take that very 4 seriously. So that's what we're here about.
5 I mean, being fit or not f it 6 is not an issue that we're going to address or get 7 into.
8 Now, you.told us how you felt about access 9 being denied. Let me ask you some questions about 10 chilling effect. Are workers hesitant to report 11 another worker about fitness for duty concerns?
12 . In my opinion, I would say that
- 13. they are.
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. Do you think 15 now that several people have had their access on hold 16 or denied people are going to be even less inclined to 17 report fitness for duty concerns?
18
- My opinion, absolutely.
C 19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, does Day and 20 Zimmerman frown upon anybody reporting any fitness for 21 duty concerns?
22 I would say the supervisors 23 would frown on the fact that you didn't turn somebody 24 in. I would say NPS, one thing I will give them 25 credit for is that their supervisors would expect you NEAL- R r, R nlS5
57 to turn in somebody if you didn't have your safety 2 glasses on.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, and NPS is 4 acronym for Day Zimmerman Nuclear Power Systems.
5
- Yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. What about 7 NMC? Has anybody there ever given you an indication 8 that they frowned upon you reporting fitness for duty 9 concerns?
10 p. No, they have not.
11 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, so that's 12 encouraged, would you say?
13 I would say very much so.
14 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay.
15 I I I would say they like you to 16 use their employees concerns and that you shouldn't be 17 afraid to turn them in. I'd say they stress that very 18 vehemently every day.
19 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right, do you.
20 consider this access being denied to some of these 21 workers as retaliation for reporting this fitness for 22 duty concern? And I'm just asking you your opinion.
23 my opinion is, do I think that 24 they got their access denied because they turned 25 somebody in?
NEAL R. r~PrnC.-
58 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Yes.
2 I think, no I do not think.
3 they got denied because they turned somebody in. I 4 think they got denied because I don't think anybody 5 truly knows what the truth is. If. these two 6 individuals who stated they went t " and:
7 saying they're not, and by me saying that told 8 me this ori saying that, doesn't really, isn't 9 really going to give you a clear picture if they 10 really came to them.
11 But I don't think they got their access 12 denied because they turned somebody in; I think they 13 got their access denied because I don't think, my 14 opinion is, I don't think, whoever denied them access, 15 I don't know who denied them, NMC or the NRC, right, 16 somebody denied them access and regardless of either 17 group who denied them access, I think that that group 18 denied them access because they don't think they 19 turned them in. That's just what I hear. That's what 20 I think. I think they got. their access denied because 21 they believed this individual more than they-believed 22 this individual, is what I think. From the outside 23 looking in.
24 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, but what about 25 the other guys who had their access, denied -that
&Or A I
59 1 allegedly didn't report?
2 Well, like I said, I, from my 3 understanding is, got his denied because, 4 from the way I see it that somebody doesn't believe 5 that he actually turned ini I would 6 sa is in the same boat. up 7 until a month ago, I thought he was denied access 8 because of the welding. Now this is just strictly 9 rumors. *-* (phonetic), my understanding is 10 he got denied access because of falsifying records on 11 the welding. And like I said, this is all just what 12 I hear through the grapevine because fitters talk.
13 My understanding was was denied 14 access but now he got his access gained back, but he 15 was the guy who said in his interview that, being that 16 he was just a. co-worker, he didn't feel that it was 17 his job to be babysitting somebody when he didn't work.
18for NM 19 And as far as myself and 20 that was a totally separate issue, and it was, like I 21 said, five-minute interview from both of us and we 22 were never really denied access; we were just on hold 23 until we spoke to Darlene.
24 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. Was 25 access ever put on hold?
K11 Al 1
60 1 Oh, yes, and my understanding, 2 his was denied for, like, when he first got back there 3 while the interviewing him was going on, but I don't 4 know why his was pulled. My, I was just assuming it 5 was. because they were doing an investigation that they 6
7 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: And what about 8Why was his pulled?
9 Him, out of everybody, I don't 10 know. I don't understand why his is. Because if it's 11 not a fitness for duty issue, because he was never 12 tes,ted or whatever, if it's not a fitness for duty 13 issue, I don't know why his would be denied access 14 because he's not the guy who turned anybody in; he's 15 just the guy who got turned in. I don't know, out of 16 everybody who g6t denied, like I said, if you listen 17 to the rumors, if they're all true why these people 18 got denied, out of everybody, I don't know why 19 is denied access.
20 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: All right. As far 21 as you know, only one person has had their access 22 reinstated.
23 From my understanding, and I 24 don't even know if he did. My understanding wa 7 25 did.
hI Al M rere
61 1 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. All right.
2 Let's go off the record for a minute so I can change 3 this tape.
4 (Whereupon the proceedings went off the 5 record.)
6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: (inaudible) minutes 7 after five. I had received a concern at 8 the time it occurred about fitness for 9 duty, would he have documented that anywhere? Does he 10 carry any sort of diary or Palm Pilot or anything like I1 that, or Supervisor's Log, where that might have been 12 entered?
13 pretty much a neat 14 freak and likes all his paperwork in order, but I
- 15. would say he didn't write it down because even now, I, 16 it would be like, you say something to him, I'll be 17 like, "give him a piece of paper and a pen; tell him
- 18. to write it down." Because he does have a good memory 19 and he-tries to remember everything, but I would say 20 that he does not have it written down.
21 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. I don't think 22 I have any other questions. Scott, anything?
23 SPECIAL AGENT KRYK: No.
24 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay. j 25 have I threatened you in any manner or 6ff ered you any
62 1 rewards in return for your statement?
2 1 No.
3 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Have you given your 4 statement freely- and voluntarily?
5 Yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Is there anything 7 further you care to add for the record?
80.
9 SPECIAL AGENT FAHEY: Okay, we'll conclude 10 at approximately 5:06 p.m.
11 (Whereupon the proceedings were concluded 12 at 5:06 p.m.)
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lkl= A I M" ý rn e%,e%"^
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview o __
Docket Number: 3-2002-004 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript. is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
c0Julienne 'kubbard Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co.,.Inc.
KMAI 13 t-_DnCC