ML21154A041
| ML21154A041 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 05/06/2021 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| Burkhart, L, ACRS | |
| References | |
| NRC-1500 | |
| Download: ML21154A041 (115) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
teleconference Date:
Thursday, May 6, 2021 Work Order No.:
NRC-1500 Pages 1-78 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
1 2
3 DISCLAIMER 4
5 6
UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONS 7
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 8
9 10 The contents of this transcript of the 11 proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 12 Commission Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 13 as reported herein, is a record of the discussions 14 recorded at the meeting.
15 16 This transcript has not been reviewed, 17 corrected, and edited, and it may contain 18 inaccuracies.
19 20 21 22 23
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 685TH MEETING 4
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 5
(ACRS) 6
+ + + + +
7 THURSDAY 8
MAY 6, 2021 9
+ + + + +
10 The Advisory Committee met via 11 Videoconference, at 9:30 a.m. EDT, Matthew W. Sunseri, 12 Chairman, presiding.
13 14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
15 MATTHEW W. SUNSERI, Chairman 16 VICKI BIER, Member 17 DENNIS BLEY, Member 18 CHARLES H. BROWN, JR. Member 19 VESNA B. DIMITRIJEVIC, Member 20 GREG HALNON, Member 21 WALTER L. KIRCHNER, Member 22 STEVE KRAFT, Public Participant 23 JOSE MARCH-LEUBA, Member 24 DAVID A. PETTI, Member 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 JOY L. REMPE, Vice Chairman 1
PETER RICCARDELLA, Member 2
DIEGO SAENZ, DHS 3
4 ACRS CONSULTANT:
7 DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL:
8 DEREK WIDMAYER 9
10 ALSO PRESENT:
11 CYRIL DRAFFIN, USNIC 12 SCOTT MOORE, Executive Director, ACRS 13 QUYNH NGUYEN, ACRS 14 DONALD PALMROSE, NMSS 15 WILLIAM RECKLEY, NRR 16 JOHN SEGALA, NRR 17 JOSEPH STAUDENMEIER, RES 18 MARTIN STUTZKE, NRR 19 NANETTE VALLIERE, NRR 20 DUNCAN WHITE, NMSS 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 P R O C E E D I N G S 1
9:30 a.m.
2 CHAIR SUNSERI: Good morning, everyone.
3 The meeting will now come to order. This is the 4
second day of the 685th meeting of the Advisory 5
Committee on Reactor Safeguards. I'm Matthew Sunseri, 6
the Chair of the ACRS. I'll now call roll to confirm 7
a quorum and that clear communications exist.
8 Vicki Bier?
9 MEMBER BIER: Here.
10 CHAIR SUNSERI: Dennis Bley?
11 MEMBER BLEY: Here.
12 CHAIR SUNSERI: Charles Brown?
13 MEMBER BROWN: Here.
14 CHAIR SUNSERI: Vesna Dimitrijevic?
15 MEMBER DIMITRIJEVIC: Here.
16 CHAIR SUNSERI: Greg Halnon?
17 MEMBER HALNON: Here.
18 CHAIR SUNSERI: Walt Kirchner?
19 Walt Kirchner?
20 Jose March-Leuba?
21 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yes.
22 CHAIR SUNSERI: Dave Petti?
23 MEMBER PETTI: Here.
24 CHAIR SUNSERI: Joy Rempe?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 MEMBER REMPE: Here.
1 CHAIR SUNSERI: Pete Riccardella?
2 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: I'm here.
3 CHAIR SUNSERI: All right. And myself.
4 So we're just lacking Walt right now. I'm sure he'll 5
join when he can.
6 The Designated Federal Officer for this 7
meeting is Mr. Derek Widmayer. During today's part of 8
the session, we will take up an information briefing 9
on fusion that will end up sometime before lunch. So, 10 in the time period between the end of that session and 11 our lunch break, we will pick up work on the 12 recommendations and conclusions for our interim letter 13 report on Part 53.
14 We'll work on that until lunch, and then 15 following the lunch break, we will take up the NuScale 16 control room staffing letter report, and that should 17 begin at 2:30 Eastern Time for those wanting to 18 participate in that activity.
19 A phone bridge line has been opened to 20 allow members of the public to listen in on the 21 presentation and Committee discussions. We have 22 received no written or oral comments or requests to 23 make oral statements from members of the public 24 regarding today's session. There will be an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 opportunity for public comment. We have set aside 1
time in the agenda for comments from members of the 2
public who attend or are listening to our meeting.
3 Written comments may be forwarded to Mr. Derek 4
Widmayer, the Designated Federal Officer.
5 A transcript of the open portion of the 6
meeting is being kept, and it is requested that the 7
speakers identify themselves with sufficient clarity 8
and volume so they may be readily heard.
9 Additionally, participants should mute themselves when 10 not speaking.
11 And as a follow-up to yesterday's opening 12 remarks, you know that we have two new members of our 13 Committee that have been appointed since the last full 14 Committee meeting, Vicki Bier and Greg Halnon.
15 Yesterday, we got a chance to introduce Greg, and this 16 morning we're going to do the same for Vicki. I'm 17 going to turn on my camera and make this a little bit 18 more personal.
19 Dr. Vicki Bier is a professor emeritus in 20 the Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering 21 and the Department of Engineering Physics at the 22 University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her areas of 23 specialization include risk
- analysis, decision 24 analysis, and operational research. She has more than 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 40 years of experience in risk analysis -- you must 1
have started when you were five -- for the nuclear 2
- power, chemical, petrochemical, and aerospace 3
industries, as well as homeland security and critical 4
infrastructure protection.
5 Dr.
Bier earned her bachelor's in 6
mathematical scientist from Stanford University and a 7
doctorate in operations research from the 8
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
9 Welcome, Vicki. We're looking forward to 10 your engagement with the Committee, and if you have 11 anything you would like to say.
12 MEMBER BIER: You know what? Thank you 13 for the nice introduction, and I'm honored to be part 14 of the Committee. I've admired the work of the 15 Committee for, I mean, probably close to 40 years. So 16 it's a dream to be able to contribute. Thank you.
17 CHAIR SUNSERI: Great. Well, thank you.
18 And so we can close these cameras now.
19 At this stage, I'll open the floor to 20 members if you have any questions or comments before 21 we start today's deliberations.
22 (Pause.)
23 CHAIR SUNSERI: All right. Well, we'll 24 get into the first topic, then, which is the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 information briefing on fusion, and I'll turn to Dr.
1 Dave Petti to lead this session.
2 Dave?
3 MEMBER PETTI: Thanks, Matt. It looks 4
like I might be having some internet issues. So if I 5
drop off, just keep on going.
6 Bill, you're back. You've really a 7
glutton for punishment here. Does your management 8
want to say anything, or do you just want to start?
9 MR. RECKLEY: John Segala was going to 10 provide a couple opening remarks.
11 MEMBER PETTI: Okay.
12 John?
13 MR. SEGALA: Okay. Thank you.
14 Good morning. I'm John Segala, the Chief 15 of the Advanced Reactor Policy Branch in the Office of 16 Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
17 In January of 2019, the Nuclear Energy 18 Innovation and Modernization Act, or NEIMA, was signed 19 into law and required NRC to complete a technology-20 inclusive, risk-informed, performance-based regulation 21 for advanced reactors, which we're calling 10 CFR Part 22 53, as you all are aware.
23 NEIMA did define advanced nuclear reactor 24 as a nuclear fission or fusion reactor. On April 13th 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 of 2020, the staff issued a rulemaking plan for 10 CFR 1
Part 53 in SECY 20-0032. And on October 2nd, the 2
Commission issued its staff requirements memorandum 3
approving the staff's proposed approach for the 4
rulemaking, and they directed the staff to develop a 5
paper considering the appropriate treatment of fusion 6
reactor designs in our regulatory structure by 7
developing options for Commission consideration on 8
licensing and regulating fusion energy systems. This 9
paper is due by the end of 2022.
10 The NRC staff has been engaging with the 11 Department of Energy, the fusion industry, and other 12 stakeholders such as the joint DOE, NRC, and Fusion 13 Industry Association public forum on October 6th of 14 2020 and the NRC public meetings on January 26th and 15 March 30th of 2021, where the staff has begun seeking 16 stakeholder feedback on possible approaches for 17 licensing and regulation of commercial fusion 18 facilities.
19 Today we plan to provide the full 20 Committee an overview of the NRC staff's efforts to 21 develop options for regulating fusion energy systems, 22 as discussed in the NRC staff's draft white paper 23 entitled Preliminary Options for Regulatory Framework 24 for Fusion Energy Systems that was made public last 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 week. As we firm up the options, we plan to come back 1
and brief the ACRS subcommittee and full committees.
2 We look forward to having discussions 3
today and hearing the ACRS members' initial thoughts 4
and feedback. Thank you.
5 Does it go over to you, Bill, now?
6 MR. RECKLEY: Yeah, I think so. Thank 7
you, John.
8 This is Bill Reckley with the staff. So, 9
as John mentioned, we are in the beginning stages of 10 developing options. We have a working group with 11 representatives from NRR, NMSS, Nuclear Material 12 Safety and Safeguards, the Office of Regulatory 13 Research, Office of General Counsel, and members from 14 agreement states on our working group.
15 And what we're going to go over today is 16 just some of our first thoughts on options that we 17 might develop. And, as John mentioned, they would 18 ultimately go into a Commission paper, and we would be 19 back before -- our expectation is that we would be 20 back before the ACRS appropriate subcommittees and 21 then to the full Committee in regards to that options 22 paper.
23 So, just as a little bit of background, 24 back in 2009, the question was posed as to whether the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 NRC would even be the regulatory Agency for fusion 1
energy systems. And that resulted in that time frame 2
in a paper, SECY 2009-64. And the staff prepared and 3
provided, in that time, options for consideration, and 4
they are listed here, which was primarily just to 5
maintain the status quo and leave the questions 6
unanswered or for the Commission to actually make a 7
decision and affirmatively state that the NRC would 8
have regulatory jurisdiction.
9 And down below the SRM, the Staff 10 Requirements Memorandum, for that
- paper, the 11 Commission did make a decision and assert that the NRC 12 would have jurisdiction over commercial fusion energy 13 devices, provided that those -- the deployment of such 14 devices could affect the public health and safety of 15 the public.
16 The other direction in that SRM back in 17 2009 was for the staff to basically stand by and wait 18 for the technology to develop to the point where 19 things were more predictable before we spent the 20 resources to actually develop a regulatory framework.
21 So the staff between 2009 and the passage 22 of NEIMA, which is on the next slide, slide 3, the 23 passage of the Nuclear Energy Innovation and 24 Modernization Act, ten years after that original paper 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11
-- and as John mentioned, within the definition of 1
advanced nuclear reactor, they included nuclear 2
fission or nuclear fusion. And so, with the passage 3
of NEIMA, we needed to start to think about that 4
question again and what would be a regulatory 5
framework for fusion.
6 So we prepared -- and John went over this.
7 We prepared -- and we talked about it yesterday to 8
some degree. We prepared a rulemaking plan primarily 9
aimed at fission -- advanced fission reactors. And, 10 again, that's the Part 53 effort. But we did address 11 fusion within the rulemaking plan, and the SRM.
12 For SECY-2032, the rulemaking plan, the 13 Commission gave us some direction on Part 53. And 14 largely, that was related to the schedule. And then 15 they also directed us to develop this options paper 16 for consideration of licensing commercial fusion 17 energy systems.
18 So, as soon as we got that, we began 19 interactions with the Department of Energy Office of 20 Science, Fusion Energy Sciences, to start the process 21 of education for the staff, in large part, and then 22 also to set up interactions with the community that up 23 to this point we have had limited interactions with 24 the fusion community.
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12 So that kind of brings us up to our 1
current activities.
We are continuing our 2
interactions with DOE, and they've been a great help 3
to us in terms of both putting us in touch with 4
stakeholders, providing education on both the 5
technologies and on the safety analyses that have been 6
performed to date. We are continuing interactions 7
with stakeholders through, as John mentioned, a couple 8
different public meetings that we've had.
9 As we talked about yesterday on Part 53 --
10 MEMBER BLEY: Bill?
11 MR. RECKLEY: Yes?
12 MEMBER BLEY: I wanted to put you on the 13 spot, but I don't think I quite can. In the SRM, the 14 Commission said you should wait until the commercial 15 deployment of fusion is more predictable, but I guess 16 NEIMA just kind of voids that thinking. NEIMA says do 17 it now.
18 (Simultaneous speaking.)
19 MR. RECKLEY: Yes. And the schedule in 20 NEIMA, as we maybe go into the last bullet on this 21 slide -- the schedule in the legislation was to have 22 the rule -- the framework done by rulemaking by 2027.
23 The Commission's Staff Requirements Memorandum, or 24 SRM, on our rulemaking plan said to have Part 53 --
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13 set a goal to have Part 53 done by 2024.
1 In our response to the Commission's SRM, 2
which was, going back a slide, the 30-day response in 3
that memorandum that the staff sent back to the 4
Commission, we did make an observation that one option 5
would be to try to do Part 53 by 2024 but to 6
acknowledge that fusion, no matter which option might 7
be chosen, we could set out to complete by 2027. That 8
would still meet the legislative date but would give 9
us a little more time for the Commission both to give 10 us directional options and then to develop the 11 framework for fusion energy systems.
12 So, as we did mention yesterday --
13 (Simultaneous speaking.)
14 MR. RECKLEY: Yes? Please go ahead.
15 MR. CORRADINI: This is Mr. Corradini. I 16 understand what you just said, but I'm not completely 17 clear. So you're expecting to have a rulemaking 18 completed on fusion by 2027, or it's just a list of 19 options by 2027? That's what I didn't --
20 MR. RECKLEY: No, the rulemaking to 21 address fusion would need to be done by 2027. The 22 options paper that we're currently working on would --
23 we're setting out with a goal of having that done this 24 year or early next year so that the Commission could 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 then make a decision, and we could incorporate that 1
into our rulemaking activities to have it done by 2
2027.
3 MR. CORRADINI: Okay. Thank you for the 4
clarification.
5 MR. RECKLEY: Okay.
6 So, as we develop Part 53, the third 7
bullet on this slide -- as we develop Part 53 -- and 8
as we mentioned yesterday, we are trying to keep Part 9
53 technology inclusive up to the point that if the 10 Commission were to decide that the -- and we'll get 11 into the options a little bit in a minute, but if the 12 Commission were to decide to treat fusion facilities 13 as utilization facilities, similar to fission power 14 reactors, that we could come back in and make 15 adjustments to Part 53 and not necessarily have to 16 make major revisions to accommodate it.
17 And that's why we're up at basically a 18 fairly high level in that rulemaking in terms of 19 specific technical requirements. So that's one of the 20 reasons. So what we're doing at the current time is 21 starting to prepare for and put pen to paper on this 22 Commission paper that would identify options for 23 Commission consideration.
24 Again, DOE has been a great help to us in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 that regard. So has the public meetings where 1
individual developers have provided summaries of their 2
designs and some of the safety considerations that 3
they are putting into their design efforts.
4 The second bullet is pretty -- it's an 5
important point here that this paper is looking at the 6
longer-term commercial deployment of fusion energy 7
systems. The ongoing research and development 8
activities by private firms or others that fall under 9
the NRC's jurisdiction we can handle on a case-by-case 10 basis. And that is largely through the materials 11 program because at this point in R&D, the amount of 12 radioactive materials is manageable and the machines 13 are running for short durations, so you're not getting 14 large activations of structures.
15 You're not getting some of the other 16 aspects of the longer-term commercial fusion program 17 like tritium breeding and some of those things. So, 18 at the present time, we're continuing, either the NRC 19 or agreement states, to handle R&D facilities under 20 the current program.
21 Yes, Mike?
22 MEMBER PETTI: Bill? Oh.
23 MR. RECKLEY: Dave?
24 MEMBER PETTI: Just a question if you've 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 thought about it. You know, there's the commercial 1
I'm-going-to-produce-electricity mission. There's 2
these really short pulse machines like you've been 3
talking about that would be handled case by case. But 4
there's a couple facilities in between there that --
5 this would be facilities to test blankets. Okay?
6 And there's lots of different options out 7
there. And you'd need neutrons and you'd need a fair 8
amount of tritium, but not run, you know, at higher 9
variability like a power reactor, but still enough.
10 Where does that fit? I mean, that could 11 also incite DOE, in which case, you know, you guys 12 wouldn't have to be involved. But if someone decides 13 commercially they want -- a private company wanted to 14 do that, you know, could that fit in the continuum 15 here of things we're talking about?
16 MR. RECKLEY: I think it could. And as we 17 talk about our options for even the commercial 18 facilities, I think you'll see that we have a lot of 19 latitude in the materials program to accommodate 20 something like that if it should be proposed.
21 But in addition to that, when I say on a 22 case-by-case basis, I mean, we could bring in -- even 23 if we treat it as materials licensee, bring in a lot 24 of different requirements to address the potential 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 hazards. And in a -- wouldn't even rule out that we'd 1
have the capability at that time, even for that --
2 well, I'll leave it there.
3 The case-by-case basis is kind of how we 4
would address that. And we would have all the options 5
the Agency has to address if that kind of a proposal 6
was brought forth. But --
7 MR. CORRADINI: Bill, just to follow on 8
Dave's point -- but he probably knows. I'm not clear.
9 Is there a clear demarcation in terms of inventory of 10 various radioactive species that would cross over 11 between a case-by-case review for a facility, or is it 12 the time of operation or some combination of those 13 that would be the point where you would go away from 14 case-by-case to this new process?
15 MR. RECKLEY: My short answer will be we 16 would go -- we would only be able to go beyond a case-17 by-case assessment once we get this rule in place. Up 18 until that time, we would have to address any -- or 19 we'd have to assess any particular activity on a case-20 by-case basis with the default being we would handle 21 them under the materials program.
22 MR. CORRADINI: So, just to follow that 23 up, then, what things are on the horizon between now 24 and 2027 that you would probably have to handle case-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 by-case?
1 MR. RECKLEY: All we're aware of at this 2
point is further progress on the actual machines that 3
are looking to advance the plasma side. So individual 4
developers, individual companies, are proposing to 5
build new test facilities of various -- we'll get into 6
the technologies, but of either the tokamak or TURis 7
designs, and other companies are looking at other 8
potential fusion designs. But they're still looking 9
primarily on the reaction side, the plasma side.
10 MR. CORRADINI: Okay. Thank you.
11 MEMBER PETTI: But I think that, you know, 12 that makes sense at this point. Just, again, 13 depending on how long your horizon is to think about 14 these things, I think there are some criteria that 15 could be established for when you get to a point where 16 you really have significant hazards that are 17 characteristics of facilities that you could put down 18 so that people would know, here's an off-ramp.
19 You know, you exceed these -- it's a 20 combination, in my
- opinion, of inventory and 21 characteristics of the plasma that lead to activation 22 that you could say, okay, you're here. You're going 23 to go in this direction. If not, you're going to go 24 in a different direction.
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19 I think you could kind of paint that road, 1
if you will, with criteria. I think it's doable.
2 MR. RECKLEY: And we'll actually get into 3
that discussion in terms of what we're considering or 4
what we propose to give to the Commission as options.
5 Well, what you just described there is our third 6
option, a combination approach.
7 So we are looking -- the third bullet here 8
-- at the fusion technologies. I won't even pretend 9
to be able to describe the science. So we have Joe 10 Staudenmeier from our Office of Research, and he had 11 some experience. And Don Palmrose in NMSS had some 12 experience.
13 So, for now, we have a few staff who have 14 some expertise, and then we're
- also, again, 15 interfacing with the Department of Energy, including 16 their Fusion Safety Program at Idaho, to help us in 17 this effort.
18 I mentioned we're coordinating with 19 agreement states, and they're actually participating 20 in our working group. And we're assessing and 21 developing options, and we'll get into that in the 22 next few slides.
23 I did want to mention that one of the 24 challenges is the diversity of designs and hazards.
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20 And much of the literature has focused on the magnetic 1
confinement, the tokamak designs that have been under 2
development both within the United States and Europe, 3
and now the big project to build such a facility, the 4
ITER facility in France.
5 So, although that's been much of the 6
focus, there are also other proposals that the 7
companies and the Department of Energy has looked at, 8
including inertial, such as the National Ignition 9
Facility, and magneto-inertial, which is a combination 10 of the two. And an example of that is perhaps the 11 general fusion design.
12 The diversity even extends to, what are 13 the reactions involved? Most of the discussion is 14 deuterium and tritium, the DT reaction. But there are 15 also proposals for the proton and boron-11 or 16 deuterium and helium-3. So those things are under 17 development, and the different designs have been a 18 variety in terms of the radiological hazards, the 19 chemical hazards, and other hazards associated with 20 the facility.
21 So one of the decisions as we developed 22 the options was and remains, do we try to make it 23 broad enough -- technology inclusive of all the fusion 24 technologies? Or do we focus, for example, on the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 magnetic or tokomak-type designs? At this point, our 1
plan is to try to be technology inclusive and develop 2
a program that could handle any of these technologies 3
should they develop.
4 So one of the questions I guess I'll leave 5
with the Committee is, as I go through the rest of the 6
slides, I'm not providing much discussion on the 7
technologies or the associated safety analyses. And 8
we could do that -- we might get the help of DOE and 9
maybe Idaho to help us with that.
10 But before we come with the options paper 11 or at the same time we come to the subcommittee --
12 again, the kind of question I'll leave is, if you want 13 briefings on the technologies, what to consider in the 14 safety assessments, we can help arrange that. But 15 you're not going to hear very much of that today.
16 So I'll leave that just as something for 17 you to ponder as you go through the planning process.
18 And when we give you a schedule for the paper, which 19 would likely be in the fall time frame, if you want us 20 to get about the same time or even before that 21 briefings on technologies and safety considerations 22 for fusion, we can do that.
23 MEMBER BLEY: Bill?
24 MR. RECKLEY: Yes?
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22 MEMBER BLEY: You mentioned you had to 1
decide whether you're focusing on one kind of machine 2
or others when you're trying to keep it technology 3
neutral. Have you thought about that -- it's hard for 4
me to think of a reason why you'd focus on one. I 5
mean, one's had a lot more work, but it's still not 6
there yet. And maybe something else could catch up 7
and pass it.
8 But where do you stand on that part?
9 MR. RECKLEY: We're planning to try to 10 develop this so that it would be inclusive of any of 11 these designs. And so where that can come into play 12
-- and Dr. Petti mentioned this a little bit, too, 13 when we get into the options later on is, are there 14 thresholds?
15 For example, I'll just mention the 16 inventory of tritium. That would be a consideration.
17 Well, for a large ITER-type machine, that's a large 18 inventory, kilograms. For some of these other 19 machines, even some of the other magnetic machines 20 might be smaller and have less inventory.
21 Some of the technology, such as those 22 using -- you know, that aren't using or would propose 23 not to use tritium in the reaction would then not have 24 any inventory, right? But right now our plan is to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 try to address any of those.
1 But when you look elsewhere -- and we've 2
participated in some discussions, for example, at 3
IAEA. Given other countries are more focused on one 4
technology, the discussions have been more focused, 5
for example, on the tokamak or variations of the 6
tokamak design.
7 MEMBER PETTI: So Bill?
8 MR. RECKLEY: Mm-hmm?
9 MEMBER PETTI: Just a number I wanted to 10 get on the record, kilograms of tritium sound like a 11 lot for ITER. But for a power reactor, the number is 12 55.8 kilograms per gigawatt thermal per year. Okay?
13 So if you had a gigawatt thermal plasma 14 that's only putting 300 megawatts on the grid, you're 15 burning 55.8 kilograms per year. That's a massive 16 amount of tritium. It's more tritium than we know 17 today, which is why they have to breed. Okay?
18 So the numbers can get staggering as you 19 go from the little experiments that you talked about 20 to the commercial reactors. It's a good number to 21 remember.
22 MR. RECKLEY: Yeah. And I'll just open it 23 up to people who may remember, but -- on our working 24 group, the discussion. But the -- once in a few 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 years, hopefully by the schedule, by the end of the 1
decade, when ITER was to start up, they were going to 2
use some significant fraction of the world inventory 3
of tritium at that point.
4 (Simultaneous speaking.)
5 MR. RECKLEY: -- going to Dave's point 6
that at some point, you need to start to breed tritium 7
to support the technology. So -- and that becomes one 8
of the -- again, I don't have many slides on the 9
technology, but that really does become, then, part of 10 the hazard assessment is the whole breeding and 11 separation and handling and storage of tritium that --
12 so it's not just the tokamak and the plasma. It's 13 also the whole rest of the facility that is 14 breeding/treating tritium to put back into the 15 machine.
16 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Bill, this is Walt 17 Kirchner. And at high temperature, if the breeding 18 blankets are part of the power conversion system, 19 which is very problematic with containing tritium.
20 MR. RECKLEY: Right. And -- yeah. Point 21 well taken. And in many cases, or what I've seen, 22 anyway, the blankets are right next to the plasma.
23 So, as we're looking at regulatory 24 approaches, even back in 2009, we looked at what would 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 be the approaches we have, and as many of you are 1
aware, the Agency as a whole breaks down largely into 2
reactor and materials in terms of our regulatory 3
programs.
4 And so, in 2009 and up to this time, we 5
continue to look that we really have options that are 6
either treated as a utilization facility -- that is 7
like we handle fission power plants -- handle it like 8
a materials licensee, and examples there might be an 9
accelerator or a large radiator where the amount of 10 radioactive material can vary, but it can be 11 significant.
12 And the need to provide protections can be 13 significant, or to come up with a hybrid or new 14 approach for fusion, and what we have there is a 15 graded approach, as we've talked about, of trying to 16 accommodate a wide variety of potential inventories 17 and potential release mechanisms that might be 18 associated with various technologies.
19 So I'll talk about each of those options 20 a little bit, and this is really where we are. We've 21 identified them. We've done a little work to talk to 22 stakeholders about the various options and the pros 23 and cons. But we're just beginning to put down some 24 thoughts, and we are continuing to assess risks as one 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 factor. That's not the only factor, but it is one 1
factor that could go into the Commission's decision.
2 So, in terms of treating them as a 3
utilization
- facility, the legal and technical 4
framework in the Atomic Energy Act and in our 5
regulations currently, for a utilization facility, 6
focus on those that use special nuclear material.
7 This is the fission side.
8 But the Atomic Energy Act does give us 9
latitude to expand the definition, and it's largely up 10 to the Agency if we want it to include another 11 facility within the utilization facility definition.
12 And, actually, you could see an example of that for 13 the medical isotope facility SHINE because our 14 previous definition was for a reactor, which was self-15 sustaining.
16 And given SHINE uses a neutron generator, 17 an accelerator, it didn't meet the definition. So we 18 included it in a case-specific rulemaking to include 19 the medical isotope facilities within the definition 20 of utilization facility. So we could -- you know, as 21 a rulemaking activity, we could just generally expand 22 the scope of utilization facility to include fusion 23 devices.
24 As you're well aware, the focus on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 utilization facilities has been, up to this point, 1
large light-water reactors. That's part of the 2
challenge we talked about yesterday of trying to bring 3
in other reactor designs, even more so a challenge for 4
fusion because we'd actually even have to change the 5
definition of utilization facility to include it.
6 It does give us a good basis both within 7
the rules, whether it be Part 53 or longstanding 8
practice, to look at design requirements on the 9
design, construction, operation, decommissioning of 10 the machine, as well as all the controls on handling 11 specific radionuclides.
12 It has traditionally involved extensive 13 licensing reviews, environmental impact statements --
14 the Atomic Energy Act does include for utilization 15 facilities a need for mandatory hearings either at the 16 construction permit or the combined license stage. So 17 the legal and technical framework is there if we were 18 to choose this route.
19 The staff is currently looking at the 20 fusion technologies. We're looking at the DOE orders 21 and standards. I think it's Standard 6002 that DOE 22 prepared for fusion safety. It's looking at a 23 magnetic confinement machine, but it goes through the 24 considerations, as do other DOE orders on both reactor 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 and non-reactor sources of looking at inventories, 1
looking at energies that might drive their release and 2
so forth. So we're currently assessing that body of 3
work, which is actually quite extensive.
4 We are looking at the ITER safety 5
analysis. One of the contributions is -- ITER is an 6
international
- activity, and one of the U.S.
7 contributions was to work on the safety analysis. And 8
that was done by folks at Idaho National Lab. So 9
we're looking at that safety analysis and talking with 10 the Fusion Safety Program at Idaho and also the Fusion 11 Energy Sciences folks in Germantown.
12 Speaking of which, they have helped us, 13 the DOE -- our counterparts at DOE have set up 14 briefings for us, one of which was from the Idaho 15 folks on the safety analysis for ITER. Another one 16 was from representatives from ITER on tritium controls 17 that they foresee. You know, they're currently in the 18 process of looking how ITER will support the research 19 and development of tritium breeding, for example. And 20 also, that was an opportunity to also bring in some of 21 the historical DOE work at the national labs. So that 22 was very useful.
23 I mentioned we have interactions with 24 IAEA. There was a recent National Academy study.
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29 Actually, there was a couple National Academy studies.
1 And we're looking at the potential risks, and we're 2
also, in that vein, looking and interacting with 3
developers and other stakeholders through our public 4
meetings.
5 One of the things from the public meetings 6
is feedback -- and this is largely from developers and 7
industry organizations -- that they don't see the 8
utilization facility model as aligning with the risk 9
posed by fusion energy systems.
10 And so that's a point of discussion, and 11 again, one of the reasons for that is that the 12 developers are -- it's a wide range of technologies, 13 and so it's kind of understandable that they look at 14 both the ITER safety analysis as being -- as 15 addressing hazards beyond what they plan to have for 16 their facilities, and they likewise see the 17 traditional approach to fission reactors as being 18 built for hazards beyond what they envision for their 19 facilities. So --
20 (Simultaneous speaking.)
21 MR. CORRADINI: Bill?
22 MR. RECKLEY: Mike? Yeah. Go ahead.
23 MR. CORRADINI: So it's the inventory that 24 is the essence of their thinking it doesn't align? Or 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 is it the way the designs are evolving that it doesn't 1
fit? Because based on what Dave said and what I 2
understand, the inventories for these large machines 3
will be significant. So what was their basis -- what 4
was their technical basis for saying it doesn't align?
5 MR. RECKLEY: Well, keep in mind, again, 6
that some of the developers have much smaller 7
machines, and some of them are proposing fusion 8
reactions that don't involve tritium. And so they 9
would see -- at least those developers would see that 10 even ITER would not represent what they think is the 11 risks.
12
- Again, the staff's not making any 13 judgments at this point, but --
14 MR. CORRADINI: That's fine. But you've 15 answered my question. I forgot about that class of 16 machine. I should have remembered.
17 MR. RECKLEY: Dave?
18 MEMBER PETTI: Bill, just a question here.
19 In terms of utilization facilities, the TRIGA reactors 20 that sit at many of the universities, and there's one 21 at an Air Force base somewhere -- you guys regulate 22 those, right?
23 MR. RECKLEY: Yes, and they're under a 24 different class license. They're under the 104 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 research and test reactors. But yes, we regulate 1
those.
2 MEMBER PETTI: Okay. I mean, you know, 3
just the hazards, right? I mean, I'm sure there's a 4
fairly low hazard. So my view is there's lots of 5
flexibility with respect to hazard here that maybe the 6
fusion developers just don't appreciate the breadth of 7
regulation that you guys deal with.
8 MR. RECKLEY: Right.
9 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah.
10 MR. RECKLEY: And much of the concern goes 11 to this second bullet, which is the -- to some degree, 12 it's less technical. But one of the comments we got 13 specifically listed out kind of an assessment of what 14 comes along with calling it a utilization facility 15 beyond the technical reviews. And I already mentioned 16 mandatory hearings, so that's one.
17 Another is inclusion under financial 18 protection requirements, the Price-Anderson Act. Just 19 as an example, for a utilization facility over 300 20 megawatts electric or the equivalent, it's not only 21 the requirement that they have financial protection 22 against a potential release, but keep in mind under 23 Price-Anderson, it would also put them into secondary 24 pool, in which they would have to contribute if there 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 were an accident at another utilization facility, 1
meaning at a fission power plant.
2 There are restrictions because of the 3
history of utilization facilities and the use of 4
special nuclear material. There's limitations on 5
foreign ownership that come along with calling it a 6
utilization facility. I mentioned, again, the 7
licensing processes and mandatory hearings are defined 8
in the Act. So there are limitations in what we could 9
do on that administrative or licensing side. And if 10 it's a utilization facility, it does preclude 11 licensing by agreement states.
12 And then an observation, actually, from 13 the National Academy study is sort of a concern that 14 just to promote the development of the technology, 15 there needs to be a sense that the regulatory burden 16 is going to be commensurate with the risk. And 17 perception is that a utilization facility licensing 18 process is more onerous than it would need to be.
19 And so, again, these are largely the 20 feedback that we've
- gotten, so they're the 21 observations from stakeholders and including the 22 National Academy study. So that's basically where we 23 are in assessing utilization facilities.
24 MEMBER BROWN: Bill?
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33 MR. RECKLEY: Yes?
1 MEMBER BROWN: This is Charlie. When I 2
read the white paper that I guess you all developed, 3
you soft-pedaled -- I kind of read it -- maybe I'm 4
just being overly sensitive -- is that they viewed the 5
byproduct approach being allowing them to do things 6
with less oversight and less meddling by outside 7
activities and regulation. And that's why they were 8
really -- that's the way I read several of the 9
paragraphs in the white paper.
10 Maybe I'm just -- most people that develop 11 stuff would just as soon have nobody walking in and 12 out of their facilities and telling them how to do 13 things or what rules they have to follow, and that's 14 kind of the way I read it. Maybe I'm thinking about 15 it wrong, but --
16 MR. RECKLEY: I wouldn't disagree with the 17 premise, Charlie. I don't know I'd word it -- they 18 wouldn't word it exactly that way either, but --
19 MEMBER BROWN: Of course not.
20 MR. RECKLEY: -- but yes. And the 21 argument -- and I'm going to turn this discussion over 22 to Duncan White from NMSS to talk about byproduct 23 materials, but I think it's a perception that it's 24 less regulation. I think as Duncan's going to get 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 into, I'm not sure they fully appreciate the latitude 1
that we have to be intrusive, kind of using your term, 2
even for a materials licensee.
3 But with that, Duncan, are you on and 4
unmuted to take over?
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 MEMBER BROWN: Can I ask one other thing 7
relative to that? The purpose is to develop 8
electrical power. And regulating based on byproduct 9
as opposed to utilization just seemed to be, again --
10 the intrusiveness or the approach -- power is power.
11 And byproducts are a material regulation as opposed to 12 generating what we really want to generate. Am I 13 thinking of that in the wrong direction, or --
14 MR. RECKLEY: Well, again, we're not 15 taking stands yet. But the only thing I would remind 16 people is that the structure that we have, based on 17 the history, the evolution, is production -- under 18 Part 50, we address production and utilization. And 19 what those facilities are producing or using is 20 special nuclear material, uranium, plutonium, so 21 forth, whereas fusion is not using those materials.
22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
23 MR. RECKLEY: Using different materials 24 and radioactive materials, but not special nuclear 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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35 material. But just a distinction.
1 MEMBER BROWN: Okay. Thank you. Just a 2
slightly different perspective. That's all.
3 MR. RECKLEY: Right. Okay.
4 Duncan?
5 MR. WHITE: Yes. Good morning. I'm 6
Duncan White. I'm from the Office of Nuclear Material 7
Safety and Safeguards, and I'm going to talk about 8
byproduct materials.
9 Under this approach, the thing that is 10 frequently pointed out by industry that makes this 11 particularly applicable to this technology is that 12 when the Energy Policy Act was passed in 2005 and the 13 regulations were doctored by NRC in 2007, the -- we 14 included a definition of a particle accelerator.
15 Again, this was -- the purpose of the 16 Energy Policy Act was to add radium as a -- radium-226 17 as an isotope under NRC jurisdiction for security 18 purposes. But the other thing that was done at the 19 same time was there was an interest of regulating PET 20 isotopes to use in -- of course, use in medical 21 diagnostics.
And they included the particle 22 accelerator definition in there, and there is one in 23 Part 30 for particle accelerators.
24 Regarding regulation of byproduct 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 material, Part 30 provides the basic framework for it, 1
and then there are additional parts from Part 31 to 2
Part 39 that are specific to different types of uses, 3
like radiography, well logging, commercial radiators.
4 Those who are not particularly a separate part, we 5
normally would use guidance as a means to do the 6
licensing for them.
7 I'll give you an example here on the third 8
bullet here. Volume 21, again, is specific to 9
materials used for accelerators. And again, just to 10 point out really clearly here, the NRC does not 11 actually regulate the accelerator per se, but it would 12 regulate the material produced by the accelerator.
13 For, again, the original intent back in '07, you would 14 have a particle accelerator that would hit a target.
15 We would regulate what's the target and the material 16 produced on the target and any activation products to 17 do that.
18 Bill talked about the flexibility in how 19 we do our licensing and the guidance, and again, our 20 approach to Part 30 does give us a lot of flexibility.
21 And again, in our design hazard analysis we'll trim 22 the scope of requirements for license use, again, be 23 it a portable gauge all the way up to a commercial 24 radiator or even a fusion energy system. But it would 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 just be scaled up accordingly based on what's to be 1
regulated and what the risk and design needs are 2
particular to that.
3 Go to the next slide.
4 The scope of requirements here are on this 5
slide and the subsequent slides, what those particular 6
things are that we look at into Part 30 again. These 7
are the colorful topical areas we would look at and 8
how we would go through them.
9 But again, we should point out here 10 regardless of how -- if we use the byproduct approach, 11 the utilization or hybrid approach, we're going to be 12 asking for similar information to evaluate the hazards 13 for any fusion energy system. Again, be it a DOE 14 commercial or ITER type of thing, we're going to ask 15 a lot of similar questions.
16 And this gets back to, you know, Bill's 17 comment at the end before is that we can get very 18 intrusive and ask a lot of questions with regard to 19 Part 30 for licensing these things. Again, obviously, 20 for radionuclides, obviously we're looking at tritium 21 and activation products.
22 Just some things about emergency plans is 23 there is a requirement in Part 32 to require an 24 emergency plan if there's a potential to have an off-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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38 site dose of 1 REM, as we saw through the emergency or 1
critical accident.
2 There is a table in Part 30 that gives the 3
fault values where the applicant or licensee has to 4
consider that. And that threshold for tritium is two 5
grams. And, again, we have some R&D facilities out 6
there right now that are either using that amount or 7
plan to use about that amount, and they would have to 8
come in to look -- provide an analysis of what those 9
potential accidents would be, you know, least pathways 10 and such, to demonstrate that -- you know, why they 11 would not need an emergency plan.
12 Again, just because you're above two grams 13 doesn't mean you need an emergency plan. You have to 14 do the evaluation; demonstrate you're going to have 15 less than 1 REM at the boundary. If you're going to 16 be above 1 REM, then you have to have a full-blown 17 emergency plan.
18 And we do have -- there is one facility in 19 Massachusetts that does use large quantities of 20 tritium and does have an emergency plan. It's a 21 commercial manufacturer, and they do require -- they 22 do have an emergency plan for their tritium they have 23 on-site. So we have used this in the past.
24
- Again, financial assurance and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 decommissioning is based on -- in large part based on 1
the possession limits for radionuclides. We have 2
training requirements. Again, for Part 30, we have a 3
named RSO and all licenses. You often have use -- and 4
anyone who's going to be using rad material and has to 5
do with -- they have -- are simply named on the 6
license or the requirements to use material is listed 7
on the license.
8 I'm sorry. Is there a question for Dr.
9 Petti or --
10 MR. CORRADINI: Just a quick question.
11 The example you said in Massachusetts with emergency 12 plans, are you allowed to say what the inventory is 13 that they had to develop or that is on-site?
14 MR. WHITE: Actually, I don't recall what 15 it currently is. It's changed over time.
16 MR. CORRADINI: So, in order of magnitude, 17 is it 10 grams, 100 grams --
18 (Simultaneous speaking.)
19 MR. WHITE: I think it's under 10 grams.
20 It's probably in the single-gram numbers.
21 MR. CORRADINI: Okay. Thank you.
22 MR. WHITE: Okay.
23 Dr. Petti?
24 MEMBER PETTI: Yes. My question is -- and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 again, this may not actually make sense legally. I 1
see this, you know, Part 30 utilization power reactors 2
sort of as a continuum. And when you -- you know, how 3
do you know when to go Part 30 versus utilization 4
versus reactors?
5 It sounds like the difference between Part 6
30 and utilization really is, are you using special 7
nuclear material? You know, if someone wanted to use 8
200 grams of tritium, could they come in under Part 9
30, or would they be pushed more towards a utilization 10 facility just because of the hazard of that much 11 tritium?
12 MR. WHITE: I think we would consider it 13 under Part 30, but again, that's something we would 14 have -- you know, again, what they're particularly 15 looking at. But no, we've never had to say something 16 like that.
17 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. So there's no hard, 18 you know, criteria one way or the other; it's all sort 19 of case-by-case and looking at the whole facility and 20 what it's going to be doing and all that?
21 MR. WHITE: That's correct.
22 MEMBER PETTI: Okay.
23 MR. WHITE: Yeah. That's right.
24 So okay. Again, under Part 30, we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 looking at facility design. Again, large number of 1
Part 30 licensing deals with particular uses, 2
material, particular devices. But the one description 3
that really stands out, and it's been probably the 4
closest we have analogy to a fusion energy system of 5
a large facility -- you know, a facility that may be 6
engaging in here -- is a commercial radiator is the 7
way that facility is licensed. It's licensed as a 8
facility.
9 Again, it's a whole integrated approach to 10 ensuring the safeties and protection of workers and 11 the public from, often, millions of curies of cobalt 12 that are used in the pool.
13 Going to the next slide --
14 MEMBER REMPE: Actually, before you leave 15 that slide, I have a question. Again, I'm not a 16 fusion expert. But I am wondering about site 17 requirements, size of the site with respect to how 18 much waste is produced and the need to be shipped 19 somewhere and how soon that shipping would need to 20 occur, and the facilities that would be able to 21 receive it, since Part 53 is supposed to be looking at 22 the whole life cycle.
23 It's similar to some of the questions I 24 raised with respect to microreactors previously. I'm 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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42 just kind of thinking, is there going to be some 1
additional concerns that ought to be considered in the 2
site itself?
3 MR. WHITE: That's a great question, and 4
it's going to be a point later on. In these set of 5
slides, I will be covering waste, and I'll be happy to 6
try to address your question there.
7 MEMBER REMPE: Sounds good. Thank you.
8 MR. WHITE: Okay.
9 Again, go to the next slide.
10 Again, important aspect of Part 30, 11 obviously -- and again, it'll be under Part 50 --
12 would be the Radiation Safety Program for workers on-13 site, for the public, and again, part of this safety 14 programs is operating emergency procedures. And 15 again, what you see listed up there is some of the 16 ones may be considered here.
17 Again, the number of procedures may be 18 extensive, and we'd expect so for a fusion energy 19 system to be -- required to be licensed. And these 20 procedures, again, a key one would be, obviously, 21 inspection and maintenance. Again, with the comps and 22 the complexity of some of these machines being talked 23 about, the rather extensive plans will have to be 24 reviewed for that. And again, under Part 30 -- we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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43 look at this all the time. Again, the analogy under 1
Part 30, current way to do this is for commercial 2
radiators.
3 Again, inspection and maintenance is 4
critical to the safe operation and continuing 5
operation of those facilities because of the high --
6 again, there they have high gamma fields that do play 7
havoc with equipment.
8 We mentioned testing requirements. We 9
mentioned before there -- again, under Part 30 and 10 similar requirements of radiography radiators sources, 11 there are agency standards and all sorts of third-12 party standards that have to be met. Again, these are 13 all -- would be covered and, again, required here too.
14 Again, another area would be, obviously, 15 routine safety audits, routine -- other routine 16 audits, and programs like that.
17 Yes, question?
18 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Duncan, yes. This is 19 Walt Kirchner. Have you any experience with 20 facilities that have associated chemical hazards and 21 byproduct materials as well?
22 MR. WHITE: Yes. That's on the next 23 slide, actually.
24 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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44 MR. WHITE: Great question. Great 1
question.
2 Okay. Let's go to the next slide since I 3
keep putting them off.
4 One of the questions asked about was waste 5
management. Again, these fusion facilities will 6
produce waste. Waste is considered part of their 7
inventory. They have to have their space to do that.
8 For example, one of the unique things that 9
you will have at a fusion facility is you're going to 10 have activated components. Those could be quite 11 radioactive, depending on what they're made of and how 12 long they're in the fields, in the neutron fields.
13 They have to be stored, safely stored. They have to 14 have a place to put them.
15 And to get back to questioning, that will 16 be done when licensing. Again, the licensee, the 17 applicant, would have to come in and demonstrate how 18 they're going to do that, how they're going to handle 19 that, before we'd issue the license.
20 Again, having spent a summer at a DOE 21 facility where they have accelerators, they had a 22 whole plot of land where they kept this stuff. And it 23 was cordoned off, it was controlled, and they had 24 maintained the area until they could properly dispose 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 of it or recycle it.
1 MR. CORRADINI: So, Duncan, this is 2
Corradini. You don't have to go back, but to kind of 3
follow on Walt's question and Dave's, are there 4
current facilities under Part 30 that are licensed 5
that not only have large inventories, as you were 6
talking, cobalt radiators, but also generate half the 7
deal with residual heat simultaneously as well as 8
other hazards?
9 It's the combination of the three to me 10 that make the fusion facility unique compared to some 11 of the examples that you were identifying for us.
12 MR. WHITE: Yes. There really isn't 13 anything to these -- with these scales. There are 14 small -- again, accelerators do -- there are small 15 accelerators, like used in PET facilities, that do 16 generate -- the device itself becomes activated.
17 There are some R&D facilities that do use 18 accelerators that use part of the building that do --
19 they have a similar type of, you know -- similar type 20 of waste and similar type of activities which make it 21 somewhat analogous here to fusion energy. But, again, 22 what's really being anticipated, no, there's nothing 23
-- I can't think of anything that's to that scale.
24 Again, this is what does make it unique is that --
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46 MR. CORRADINI: Okay. Thank you so much.
1 MR. WHITE: Yeah.
2 MEMBER HALNON: Duncan, this is Greg 3
Halnon. On the security aspect, what is the -- does 4
Part 30 encompass the security, or would you look at 5
Part 73 as part of the --
6 MR. WHITE: The way the materials work is 7
we do -- Part 37 of the regulation does deal with 8
material security. It is focused around the IAEA 9
isotopes that are -- there are 20 of those. Tritium 10 is not listed as one of them. So, from a security 11 standpoint, there wouldn't be a particular special 12 requirement beyond that. There is general security 13 requirements in Part 20 that would absolutely apply 14 here.
15 The other thing, obviously, that has been 16 raised by National Academy and has been raised 17 elsewhere is, obviously, when we deal with tritium and 18 large quantities of tritium, you're dealing with -- it 19 may -- that could be considered preparation concerns.
20 And that's something that's raised and the working 21 group's aware of.
22 But the way the current Part 30 license 23 regulatory structure is, material security is tied to 24 20 radionuclides and over certain quantities, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 tritium is not one of them right now.
1 MEMBER REMPE: So, with respect to the 2
waste management -- this is a little different than my 3
concern with the microreactors where there may not be 4
a place available that's licensed to take them and 5
take the lid off and take the fuel out and things like 6
that. They'll come in with a license, saying, we're 7
ready to go, and -- power production -- and let's send 8
it somewhere later.
9 Is there a place that can handle the waste 10 that's downstream, the large amount of waste that 11 would be associated with a power production facility 12 for a fusion reactor is what I'm curious about, 13 because if they say, oh, we'll ship it later, that's 14 okay with the current fleet, I guess, because we found 15 a way to deal with the instances on-site when they 16 didn't have a place to ship it to later.
17 But I'm just wondering if the NRC will let 18 that happen again, or is there a place that can handle 19 this so this isn't a concern with fusion is what I'm 20 trying to get to, if that makes sense.
21 MR. WHITE: It does. There are commercial 22 waste facilities out there that will take this waste 23 material for a price, of course. That's a viable 24 option. It's not cheap; it's very expensive.
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48 What people sometimes have done with 1
certain radiated components, they have recycled 2
material. For example, some material has been 3
recycled -- we've had cases where we've had 4
contaminated metal from inadvertent source meltings 5
and stuff, and some of that material ended up in 6
shielding at DOE facilities.
7 So there's ways to recycle some of this 8
material, but there are also other ways to -- there 9
are low-level waste disposal options for this, for 10 these --
11 (Simultaneous speaking.)
12 MEMBER REMPE: Okay, as long as they can 13 handle that capacity. I knew there were ways to do 14 it, but I didn't know --
15 MR. WHITE: Yeah.
16 MEMBER REMPE: -- if we'd be suddenly 17 flooding the system.
18 MEMBER PETTI: So, Joy, for the power 19 reactors, it's unclear, but there's a big push in the 20 community to develop what are called low-activation 21 materials so that they will all qualify for shallow 22 land burial. And that's all about the impurities in 23 these materials.
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49 material, but there are steels that are low activation 1
and there are other materials that qualify. And 2
that's where the push is to see if those materials 3
will perform the functions they need to do infusion.
4 But at the end, all you'd have is material in shallow 5
land burial.
6 Now, it is a lot of material when you look 7
at the power reactor. And so there's also been work 8
to look at recycling, but, you know, that's way down 9
the line. But that's --
10 MEMBER REMPE: It's way down the line, but 11 you've got to think about it with the way that Part 12 53's looking. And, again, the capacity is what I was 13 curious about. But if they can have a credible path, 14 then that needs to be established that they need to 15 think about that in this Part 53.
16 MR. WHITE: Yeah. That's true. One of 17 the things, too, with waste at fusion facilities, 18 again, is how much waste are you really going to 19 generate? If you take away the components, you know, 20 there's -- you're getting the tritium, and lots of 21 tritium. And tritium, as everyone knows, has a 22 propensity to absorb into a lot of things, metals, 23 everything. And how much waste will be generated?
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50 process, is there enough space to do that? Is there 1
a place to send all this stuff? That has to be 2
considered.
3 Regarding byproduct material -- was there 4
a question?
5 MR. RECKLEY: No, I was just going to say 6
Scott Moore has had his hand up.
7 MR. WHITE: Oh, I'm sorry.
8 Go, Scott.
9 MR. MOORE: Thanks, Duncan. It's good to 10 hear from you, Duncan.
11 Part 34 of the members is also unique in 12 one way, and it's that -- for the ACRS. And it's that 13 the ACRS's scope does not extend to Part 30. The 14 ACRS's scope only extends to reactors and waste. So 15 the only way that a Part 30 action could be reviewed 16 by the Committee would be if the Commission or the 17 staff referred it to the Committee. And so that's a 18 point for the Committee to consider.
19 That's it, Duncan. Back to you.
20 MR. WHITE: Thank you, Scott --
21 MEMBER BIER: I have a quick question 22 also. This is Vicki Bier. And this may be too far 23 into the weeds of the science. Maybe it'll come up at 24 a later time. But I just wanted to understand, with 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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51 regard to material damage at operating fusion power 1
reactors, is there a thought that that might require 2
sort of more and more intense regulatory oversight 3
than what we have at fission reactors on the material 4
side at -- either because of risk or because of, kind 5
of, the uncertainty about the risk?
6 MR. WHITE: Bill, you want to take that 7
one?
8 MR. RECKLEY: I think that we'll have to 9
look at that, and as -- where they are now -- and Dr.
10 Petti mentioned they're researching materials. So all 11 of that would have to be considered.
12 So I'm not sure I can say it would be more 13 so, but certainly it's going to be an area that we 14 have to look at because an option to use better 15 material, as Dave mentioned, would be to actually put 16 constraints on when do you need to stop operation, 17 maybe replace components, because you want to keep 18 under a certain activation level.
19 But all of those things are kind of in 20 play right now. So I'm sorry I don't have a specific 21 22 MEMBER BIER: No, that's fine. Just 23 making sure it's kind of on the radar and whatever.
24 Thanks.
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52 MR. RECKLEY: Diego, you had a comment?
1 MR. SAENZ: Yeah. This is Diego Saenz, 2
and some of you may know me from when I worked at the 3
NRC. I did a lot of MELLA+ presentations. Now I'm 4
with the state of Wisconsin as the agreement state 5
representative, one of two.
6 But I wanted to contextualize something 7
for folks because I'm not sure this has been fully 8
appreciated. So NEIMA uses the term fusion reactor, 9
but that is not defined anywhere. And I also don't 10 think it lends itself to the self-sustained or 11 critical mass type quantity that we have with 12 utilization facilities.
13 So there's actually been quite a bit of --
14 I don't know if concern or anxiety, but if this were 15 to go forward, I know the ACRS is thinking a lot about 16 this ITER type and power facilities, but it's not 17 clear to me that this wouldn't just swallow everything 18 where fusion occurs. And that's where there's a lot 19 of concern.
20 So I think that there's been some 21 misunderstanding of the industry's concerns because I 22 think that they're -- they are thinking of these type 23 of devices, for example, those that we have currently 24 licensed in Wisconsin, which, as Bill talked -- it's 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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53 an accelerator, and we license that tritium and those 1
activation products. But there is no risk of, you 2
know, self-sustained reaction or something like this.
3 These are --
4 (Simultaneous speaking.)
5 MR. SAENZ: Yeah. Go ahead.
6 MR. CORRADINI: So this is Corradini. Are 7
you talking about the Phoenix nuclear accelerators?
8 MR. SAENZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CORRADINI: Okay. So I guess I'm 10 aware of that, but when I put such a device in 11 combination with a subcritical solution, which you'd 12 find in SHINE, for example, then it falls into --
13 well, the rule has changed for it, but it seems to 14 logically fall into a utilization site.
15 I understand where you're coming from, but 16 as the systems get more complex, that's, I think, 17 where the hesitancy is by some of the members.
18 MR. SAENZ: Yes. So, to contextualize 19 this for you -- so you're aware of that. So imagine 20 that same device, they now want to do neutron 21 radiography. And that's what we've licensed them to 22 do. So not at SHINE, in other sites -- and even SHINE 23 has now come forward with a -- has requested a license 24 from our state for R&D, and we have licensed them to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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54 do R&D work. So that's currently licensed. So 1
that's --
2 (Simultaneous speaking.)
3 MR. CORRADINI: I just want to make sure 4
I understood the context of your example.
5 MR. SAENZ: Yeah. So the context -- and 6
that's a perfect example. They want to do neutron 7
radiography. They have no intention of being power 8
positive or anything like that, but they just want the 9
neutrons, again, for a different purpose.
10 So, in SHINE, they're using it to maintain 11 the subcritical configuration. But they see benefit 12 in using those for radiography. And there's some 13 concern that those would get swallowed up into Part 53 14 and, you know, into mandatory hearings and to all of 15 these things for devices that -- you know, frankly, 16 that is a huge burden for that scale of operation.
17 Thanks.
18 MR. WHITE: Thanks, Diego. Continuing on, 19 with regard to -- I'm sorry. Go back one slide. I'm 20 sorry.
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MEMBER KIRCHNER: -- going to ask, Duncan, 23 if you could address systems with chemical hazards, in 24 particular --
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55 (Simultaneous speaking.)
1 MR. WHITE: I remembered your question.
2 I was going to get there. Yes.
3 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Thank you.
4 MR. WHITE: Okay.
5 With regard to Part 30 and environmental 6
protection requirements in Part 51, again, licensing 7
for Part 30 does have to comply with Part 51. The 8
large majority of material uses are categorically 9
exempt under Part 51. There are some exceptions to 10 that. And, of course, their fusion is not covered --
11 currently not covered under Part 51 at all. So, 12 again, looked at it today. One would have to probably 13 look -- consider NEPA requirements with regard to a 14 fusion application to Part 30.
15 Some of the other hazards -- one of the 16 things was, yes, under Part 30, we do look at some 17 non-radiological and how they could impact the use of 18 their material. A good example, I think, of this is 19 with commercial radiator facilities. There are 20 limitations written into license that only allow the 21 radiation of only very small quantities of certain 22 chemicals, certain volatile chemicals and certain 23 other materials because of the potential fire hazard.
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56 the early days where they had some serious fires and 1
damages to radiators. And again, this is why this is 2
important, because commercial radiators do radiate a 3
number of surgical and medical products, which are 4
often kept in small quantities of chemical solutions 5
to keep them clean.
6 Also, one of the main fusion designs, the 7
inertial ones, use a lot of lasers, high-powered 8
lasers. And, of course, that would have to be 9
considered again when we're evaluating their use, the 10 use and how it impacts the radioactive material and 11 their safety systems within a facility.
12 Now, going to the next slide, I think 13 we've covered --
14 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Before you go on, 15 Duncan, this might be in the weeds, but I was looking 16 over your list of things, and one that comes to mind 17 is fire safety.
18 MR. WHITE: Yeah.
19 MEMBER KIRCHNER: So that's another factor 20 that looms pretty large with any system that would 21 have a significant inventory, particularly of tritium 22 or activated products, and/or using unique chemical 23 coolant systems, some that may be flammable and/or 24 toxic.
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57 MR. WHITE: Agreed. That's -- and, again, 1
we've seen such a wide range of designs out there and 2
proposed designs that that's something we'd have to 3
consider. That's why it's listed up there, because 4
we'd have to look at that and consider that when we do 5
the licensing. And it doesn't matter if you're doing 6
it under byproduct or utilization or hybrid approach.
7 You're going to have to do that evaluation.
8 Back to regulation, I think we've covered 9
most of this already. With regard to DOE and NEIMA, 10 there is an instruction to have a pilot project up by 11 the end of this decade. Again, that facility may or 12 may not be built on a DOE facility. If it is, it 13 would be under DOE regulatory oversight.
14 We've talked a lot about agreement states, 15 and Diego addressed a lot of this already. Again, 16 some of you probably -- most of you probably already 17 know agreement states do assume regulatory authority 18 from the NRC. NRC discontinues their authority. This 19 is based on Section 274 of the Atomic Energy Act.
20 And this would encompass fusion research 21 facilities. And, in fact, Diego mentioned that 22 Wisconsin does regulate Phoenix and some of their 23 work. There's also been other fusion work that's been 24 under agreement state jurisdiction for a while.
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58 There's the LLE at University of Rochester in New 1
York. There's a couple facilities in California. And 2
one thing that's being looked at and planned right now 3
is the Commonwealth Fusion System's SPARC facility, 4
which is -- they're talking to the Commonwealth of 5
Massachusetts right now to build that facility under 6
a byproduct license. Working on that now.
7 So we do have -- the bottom line is we do 8
have some experience here. The agreement states have 9
some experience here with working with fusion research 10 facilities, some commercial facilities. So that's 11 kind of -- and their participation in this working 12 group has been very helpful in terms of kind of 13 helping us, looking at the breadth of activities that 14 need to be done and some of the challenges common to 15 licensee facilities and some of the regulatory aspects 16 of it.
17 Okay. We'll go to the next slide.
18 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Duncan, this is Walt 19 Kirchner again. When the agreement states do that, do 20 they typically use Part 30 as the outline, or 21 something comparable?
22 MR. WHITE: Yes. Yes, they do. Agreement 23 states have to have compatible regulations to NRC, so 24 they have equivalent Part 30 in their regulations. So 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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59 they would follow that approach.
1 A number of agreement -- the guidance 2
documents I mentioned in earlier slides, the NUREG-3 1556, those are jointly developed with the agreement 4
states. And a number of agreement states either use 5
those guides or use very similar ones where they 6
insert -- basically, they insert their requirements 7
instead of the NRC requirements in there.
8 So agreement states generally use the same 9
approach that we would do. Again, there may be site 10 differences from state to state, but for the most 11 part, they use the same general approach that we do 12 for licensing byproduct material.
13 Then feedback we've gotten on this 14 approach, as Bill previously mentioned, industry and 15 the developers are very keen on the byproduct material 16 approach. Again, a thing that they point out numerous 17 times is how similar it is to accelerator provisions.
18 One thing that we have -- and, again, they 19 point out that Part 30 is designed for byproduct 20 material, what tritium is. It's not a fission 21 reactor. And, again, this is generally how they're 22 selling and approaching this.
23 We also get feedback that they say 24 agreement states -- and something we agree with is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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60 that agreement states do have experience with 1
licensing and inspecting fusion activities. In the 2
previous slide, we mentioned a few of those.
3 So I think the next -- I think we're going 4
to move into the hybrids discussion next. Are there 5
any more questions on byproduct?
6 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, hold on. Just --
7 this is when we usually take our break, so this might 8
be a good spot as you finish the slide. But we take 9
our usual 20-minute break. So why don't we do that 10 and go into recess and reconvene at 20 after the hour?
11 CHAIR SUNSERI: That sounds good to me, 12 Dave.
13 (Simultaneous speaking.)
14 CHAIR SUNSERI: -- if that's okay with the 15 presenter.
16 MR. WHITE: Yes.
17 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay. So we'll recess 18 till 20 after. Thank you.
19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 20 off the record at 11:00 a.m. and resumed at 11:21 21 a.m.)
22 CHAIR SUNSERI: So, we are ready to 23 reconvene. We will continue on with the fusion 24 discussion. Dave?
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61 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. I don't know who's 1
talking. Is that Bill now? Are we back to Bill? Or 2
do I --
3 MR. RECKLEY: Yes, we did. Yep, this is 4
Bill Reckley again. So, we'll finish out with the --
5 with the last of the possible approaches we've 6
identified today for the options paper.
7 And it basically involves either 8
developing a new or taking a hybrid approach that 9
would try to take advantage of existing frameworks.
10 That includes those developed by the NRC for various 11 types of licenses, approaches taken by DOE, and 12 appropriate role for the Agreement States.
13 We would try to make it a graded approach, 14 looking at the hazard and the potential for 15 radiological releases. It's kind of a graded approach 16 is what we would set out to establish.
17 As I mentioned earlier, we would look to 18 try to make this technology inclusive for all the 19 different potential fusion designs, all the potential 20 fusion reactions that are being investigated.
21 And to try to reach that appropriate 22 balance where we're looking at the hazards and the 23 risks. And then the associated regulatory processes 24 that a license -- that an applicant would face.
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62 And try to make sure that the regulatory 1
process is not somehow out of sync with what we're 2
trying to accomplish in terms of public health and 3
safety.
4 So, the first of the two hybrid 5
approaches, when we presented this at a stakeholder 6
meeting, and it might have been better terminology, 7
but we called this a fragmented approach.
8 Where we would look at a potential 9
applicant, and have some kind of decision criteria.
10 This would go to, as we've discussed before, 11 inventories of tritium, or other radionuclides.
12 It may involve an actual calculation of 13 potential offsite consequences. But, come up with 14 some decision criteria and use that to channel that 15 application either to a byproduct material process 16 using the regulations largely as they exist now under 17 Part 30.
18 Or, if the decision criteria went the 19 other way, then the application would be channeled to 20 Part 53. And would be treated as a utilization 21 facility.
22 So, this -- this would result in the end 23 in at least the potential for some fusion energy 24 systems to be licensed under byproduct material, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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63 other fusion energy systems to be treated as a 1
utilization facility.
2 The other hybrid approach that we've 3
talked about, is where we focus on trying to 4
consolidate all fusion energy systems under one set of 5
regulations. And acknowledge that the variety of 6
technologies include a range of hazards and potential 7
consequences.
8 And we tried to grade the requirements.
9 And Duncan had gone through, you know, the ability to 10 set different thresholds for different regulatory 11 activities, including emergency planning and financial 12 protection.
13 The potential that we're going to get into 14 in Part 53 discussions going forward. You know, the 15 personnel and the requirements on potential licensing 16 or other requirements on personnel.
17 All of those things could be graded under 18 basically what would become a new regulation.
19 Potentially even a whole new Part.
20 So, just a working number. I sometimes 21 refer to this as Part 45. Somewhere between materials 22 and utilization facilities.
23 But again, at this point we would be just 24 looking to develop that option for Commission 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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64 consideration.
1 So, the feedback that we've gotten has 2
been limited for the hybrid model. I don't -- I'm not 3
sure many stakeholders have thought this all the way 4
through.
5 And the staff is still kind of 6
contemplating what could be associated with this.
7 This would also be an area or an approach that could 8
involve us going back to Congress and suggesting that 9
an actual change to the Atomic Energy Act would 10 facilitate us going forward.
11 I had mentioned before, there are some --
12 some issues trying to fit these into a utilization 13 facility, given the long history of utilization 14 facilities being really focused on special nuclear 15 material.
16 There's also some questions on whether all 17 the fusion technologies really fit kind of a 18 definition for an accelerator. Which was the, as 19 Duncan mentioned, which was the change to the Act in 20 2005 to include byproduct material produced by an 21 accelerator.
22 And there's been some discussion. And 23 back and forth as to whether various fusion 24 technologies actually are accelerators.
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65 The --
1 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Bill, This is Walt. If 2
I might just interject since I spend a lot of time 3
following EPAC 2005.
4 Those revisions were written specifically 5
with medical isotopes in mind. Production of the 6
radioisotopes for medical applications.
7 Perhaps the language is more generic than 8
that. But, certainly there was no consideration of a, 9
say a laser driven fusion system in the writing of 10 EPAC 2005.
11 MR. RECKLEY: And yeah, that goes -- thank 12 you. Walt. That goes largely to the point. That when 13 Congress was putting that language in, they didn't 14 have this in mind.
15 So, the question both from a technical and 16 legal assessment, will be whether there's enough 17 wiggle room in the language that they did put in, to 18 include fusion energy systems.
19 And that's an ongoing -- that's an ongoing 20 assessment that we have. The hybrid approach would 21 give us an opportunity to tailor the requirements to 22 the radiological hazards.
23 We can do that within Part 30. And as 24 Dave mentioned, we have the ability to do graded 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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66 approaches even for utilization facilities and the 1
technical reviews.
2 But, this we could actually write for the 3
specific hazards. And write the regulations in the --
4 using the terminology that fusion uses in terms of, 5
you know they don't -- they don't typically refer for 6
example to decay heat.
7 It's after heat or something to reflect 8
that the -- that the array -- that that phenomena is 9
associated with the irradiation of the structures and 10 so forth.
11 And so, in terms of the potential hazards 12 that you -- that we could write this part, if we write 13 a new part, in terms of threats, not threats. That's 14 the wrong word.
15 Potential sequences involving you know, 16 magnetic transients and dust, and as Dave mentioned, 17 focus on, particularly on things like the tritium 18 breeding blanket.
19 Just -- there's a whole bunch of things 20 that are different about these machines. And if we 21 started from scratch, we could -- we could tailor the 22 requirements to those hazards and to the actual 23 underlying technology.
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67 the hybrid model could work. And it was seen as 1
favorable by some.
2 But, I think those that would favor it 3
would not foresee some of the things in the Act from 4
the utilization facilities carrying over to this 5
hybrid. Things like applicability of Price Anderson 6
foreign ownership.
7 And maybe even ACRS review as Scott 8
pointed out. That's required in the Act for 9
utilization facilities, but not for byproduct 10 materials.
11 So, in summary, we are still closer to the 12 beginning then the end of this assessment. We're 13 looking at designs and technologies and hazards to try 14 to determine the right scope.
15 As Duncan mentioned, and I think it is 16 worthy of repeating and emphasizing, regardless of the 17 approach, we're going to be looking, technically we're 18 going to be looking basically at the same -- the same 19 information or requesting the same information in 20 order to make a safety judgement.
21 And that goes to the inventories, and the 22 energies that can drive the releases and so forth.
23 So, that would be done under any of the three options 24 that we talked about.
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68 And in the end, the Commission is the 1
decision maker. So, the product that we're currently 2
working on, that we've been assigned, is to develop 3
options for Commission considerations.
4 And we just thought that this would be a 5
good thing to come today, kind of talk to you about 6
where we are, what we're developing. Set out that --
7 that the schedule would be this fall.
8 Perhaps as early as this fall we would 9
have a draft of the paper that we would be preparing 10 to send up to the Commission.
11 And I think that the ACRS review of that 12 would be a good thing. And that we were planning on 13 it.
14 The other question about whether you would 15 want additional information, and we can line up people 16 from DOE or Idaho, or even individual developers, to 17 go into more discussion of the hazards and the safety 18 assessments.
19 You know, I'll leave that open, and you 20 can get back to us if you would have any interest in 21 us setting that up.
22 So, go ahead, Dave.
23 MEMBER PETTI: So Bill? Yeah. So, it 24 seems to me, I don't like the -- that hybrid approach 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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69 you had talked about.
1 The key is the decision criteria, right?
2 What puts you on the road to Part -- to Part 30 versus 3
utilization facility?
4 That's where, I think, the rubber will 5
meet the road.
6 MR. RECKLEY: Yeah. If we reduce the 7
existing frameworks, and actually bifurcate, and treat 8
some, one way and the others, the other way, then it 9
would be very important to have.
10 And you do have to look, to be honest, you 11 have to look at when you set stuff up like that, do 12 you set out unintended consequences. Right?
13 So, you set that limit on X grams of 14 tritium. And then have applicants start to try to 15 gauge the whole technology to keep below that 16 threshold.
17 That might be an okay thing. But, it's 18 something to think about.
19 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. But, I mean, even --
20 even in a graded approach, I mean, we -- mentally we 21 still have to have to have some sort of criteria on 22 how to figure out how to grade.
23 MR. RECKLEY: Right.
24 MEMBER PETTI: You've got a brand new 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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70 licensing framework, right? Because there is a point 1
at which, you know, the hazards get significant when 2
you get lots of neutrons.
3 And you know, holding the plasma for under 4
a second is not an issue from a neutron standpoint.
5 But, holding it for about 15 minutes or a bit longer, 6
I can see, you know, you're going to start to activate 7
stuff.
8 And so you've got to worry, again, more 9
worker safety issues than public safety. But again, 10 important in addition to the tritium inventories.
11 MR. RECKLEY: Right. And again, as we've 12 gotten the feedback from stakeholders, one of the --
13 you know, one of the things to consider and one of the 14 things that consolidated approach, like the Part 45 15 approach could do, perhaps better than the bifurcated 16 either Part 53 or Part 30, is that distinction in what 17 comes with a utilization facility?
18 All of those legal requirements like Price 19 Anderson mandatory hearings, foreign ownership, those 20 restrictions, are they appropriate? Would people --
21 but again, the nice thing about where we are, is we 22 only have to point these things out at this point, for 23 the Commission to consider.
24 We need to consider it, I guess, into 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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71 developing a recommendation for them. But, we don't 1
have to solve all these problems right now.
2 We only have to identify them, say there's 3
a path to resolution, and what that might be for the 4
staff -- for the Commission to make a decision.
5 And then once they decide and tell us what 6
path to do on, we'd have to work out, no matter what 7
they decide, there's a whole bunch of details that 8
we're going to have to work out, as you've mentioned.
9 MEMBER PETTI: Okay. And is one path 10 seen, the amount of path just about the same? Or do 11 you think it's different?
12 MR. KRAFT: Bob, -- Bob, Steve Kraft. I 13 had my hand up. Sorry. Yeah, so I'll make this quick.
14 I think something that NRC needs to think 15 about, in the definition of advanced reactor, I went 16 back and looked at the staff --
17 (Simultaneous speaking) 18 MEMBER REMPE: So, there is someone on the 19 public line who is talking on the phone who needs to 20 mute himself now.
21 MR. KRAFT: I just believe that -- only 22 saying what Jeff said earlier.
23 MEMBER PETTI: Can we please mute the 24 public line?
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72 (Simultaneous speaking) 1 MR. KRAFT: In one respect, because of the 2
phrase such as. And I don't know how that can --
3 (Stopped public line) 4 MR. RECKLEY: Okay. I'm not sure at this 5
point, Dave, that we've made a distinction yet. And 6
it will be part of what we have to assess, is whether 7
any of those three options would be easier or harder.
8 I think in terms of time and level of 9
effort, probably developing a whole new part would be 10 the most extensive.
11 MEMBER PETTI: All right.
12 MR. RECKLEY: And that -- that usually is 13 the case, right?
14 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. Yeah.
15 MR. RECKLEY: It might be the best answer.
16 I mean, if you ignore everything else, it might be the 17 best answer, because it could be -- everything could 18 be tailored to the technology and the hazards.
19 But, it also would be the most resource 20 intensive, so.
21 MEMBER PETTI: Right. But, that's part of 22 the paper you put will --
23 MR. RECKLEY: Right.
24 MEMBER PETTI: Flush that out.
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73 MR. RECKLEY: Right.
1 MEMBER PETTI: Great. Okay.
2 MR. RECKLEY: Right.
3 MEMBER PETTI: Thank you. That helps.
4 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Dave, this is Walt. You 5
know, one thing that occurs to me is that if you could 6
do Part 45, quote/unquote, that would cut lose the 7
staff from all the complications that trying to make 8
53 so inclusive that it includes fusion machines.
9 It would just -- it seems to me it would 10 make life simpler for the staff for -- getting to 11 closure on 53, if it could be cut loose from the 12 requirements to address fusion and public 13 considerations of the fusion machine in 53.
14 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. I kind of thought 15 about that too.
16 MR. RECKLEY: Given I have a foot in both 17 camps, I think about it a lot, so. And it's a good --
18 it's a good point, Walt.
19 And that will also be something that we 20 would bring out later.
21 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Well, the other thing --
22 I guess it's not my place. This would be one member's 23 opinion, and not a recommendation from the Committee.
24 That Bill, that time is -- you're under a, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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74 already for 53, under a tight schedule with direction 1
from the Commissioners.
2 Realistically, a fusion reactor is still 3
a while off.
4 MR. RECKLEY: Yeah.
5 MEMBER KIRCHNER: To have it to the number 6
of advanced fission reactors that are potentially on 7
your plate already. And more may be coming.
8 So, I think a consideration of realistic 9
timing as to when a commercial fusion reactor that 10 could actually generate electric, would be available 11 to connect with the grid, is well off.
12 I don't want to debate how far well off 13 is. But it's certainly not near, anywhere near the 14 schedule that you're working against to complete 53.
15 MR. RECKLEY: Right. And yeah, just to 16 reinforce, the stakeholders generally, the fusion 17 related stakeholders basically agree that there's no 18 need for an aggress -- as aggressive a schedule for 19 fusion as there is for the advanced reactors on the 20 fusion side.
21 And just for calibration point, the 22 national academy study, when it was laying out what 23 would be an aggressive schedule to get a pilot plant 24 up to actually make electricity, was looking at the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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75 period between 2035 and 2040, so.
1 Any other questions?
2 (No response) 3 MR. RECKLEY: Okay.
4 MEMBER PETTI: I guess not. Then I guess 5
we can open up the line for public comment now.
6 MR. DASHIELL: The public bridge line is 7
open for comments. So, please make sure you unmute 8
your device before speaking.
9 CHAIR SUNSERI: Go ahead Dave, make your 10 request again.
11 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. Anybody on the 12 public line wish to make a comment?
13 CHAIR SUNSERI: It looks like somebody is 14 trying to talk, but I can't hear anything.
15 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. I don't hear 16 anything either.
17 CHAIR SUNSERI: Well, this is the kind of 18 technical challenge we encounter when we are forced to 19 mute the public line because of disruption.
20 So, at this point, I would say it looks 21 like somebody is trying to say something. But, we're 22 not going to be able to get them connected.
23 So, anybody that's interested in making 24 some remarks, can provide those in writing to us. And 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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76 we will include them with the record of this meeting.
1 Go ahead Dave. Back to you.
2 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah. No, I think I'm 3
going to thank Bill. I think this helps kind of put 4
the whole fusion thing in a better context.
5 It's a difficult task given the really 6
wide range of facilities, both in terms of the 7
technologies, but in also the emissions.
8 When you're talking about a facility that 9
would hold a plasma for under one second versus 10 something, you know, steady state, there's huge 11 differences.
12 And that's the real challenge. And I 13 think Bill, you guys have done a good job at sort of 14 laying that out, and laying out the options, so.
15 MEMBER HALNON: Hey Dave, this is Greg 16 Halnon, just one more quick, if I could?
17 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah.
18 MEMBER HALNON: Just my opinion is the 19 statement on slide 21 kind of says it all. And I'll 20 just read it.
21 Opportunity to tailor regulatory 22 requirements to specific radiological hazards for 23 various fusion technologies. That -- my opinion is 24 that nuclear is just too important to try to force fit 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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77 something into a regulation that maybe or possibly 1
covers all the aspects.
2 I really think that in my opinion, we need 3
to keep nuclear, especially new technologies such as 4
fusion, and the potential unique hazards, in the 5
forefront from specific regulations. So, as we go 6
forward, we can talk more about that.
7 But, the second thing, there was an offer 8
for some of us novices in fusion to get some 9
additional training and oral presentations of the 10 different technologies.
11 I for one would vote that I could use 12 that. You know, I know very little bit about fusion.
13 Enough to know that it's opposite of fission.
14 But, other than that, I could use some 15 tutoring on the emerging technologies. So, as we go 16 forward, that might just be one vote for out of many.
17 MEMBER PETTI: Okay. Thanks. Any other 18 members?
19 (No response) 20 MEMBER PETTI: Okay. Then I turn it back 21 to you Matt.
22 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay. Thank you, Dave.
23 And thank you to this staff. And Bill, I don't --
24 Bill Reckley, I don't know how you had the energy to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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78 do this.
1 But, you're quite amazing. So, thank you 2
for hanging in there with us for a day and a half now 3
on some very technical stuff.
4 We are -- can do a transition here. Let 5
me check with Dennis Bley. Dennis, are you and Derek 6
prepared to start, to continue reviewing the draft 7
letter report on -- interim report to Part 53?
8 MEMBER BLEY: Sure.
9 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay. Well, let's make 10 that transition then. And we will work on this until 11 1:30. And then at 1:30, we'll take a lunch break.
12 So, I guess we'll turn it to you.
13 MEMBER BLEY: Okay. Before you do, I know 14 we had a break not too long ago. Maybe we could take 15 a short break before we get into this.
16 I don't know if Derek would too?
17 MR. WIDMAYER: Yeah. I second that.
18 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay. We need some time 19 to get this -- the stuff up. So, we'll take a what?
20 Ten minutes?
21 So, we'll start at 12:00? We'll recess 22 until 12:00. We'll reconvene at 12:00.
23 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 24 off the record at 11:48 a.m.)
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Title Lorem Ipsum Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Developing Options for a Regulatory Framework for Fusion Energy Systems May 6, 2021
=
Background===
SECY-09-0064 April 2009
- Request for the Commission to establish Regulatory Jurisdiction over commercial Fusion systems. In summary:
- 1) Maintain Status Quo, or
- 2) Commission asserts (or not) jurisdiction over commercial Fusion systems.
SRM SECY-09-0064 July 2009
- Commission approved staffs option 2: the NRC has regulatory jurisdiction over commercial fusion energy devices whenever such devices are of significance to the common defense and security, or could affect the health and safety of the public.
- The staff, however should wait until commercial deployment of fusion technology is more predictable, by way of successful testing of a fusion technology, before expending significant resources to develop a regulatory framework for fusion technology.
=
Background===
Nuclear Energy Innovation and Modernization Act (NEIMA) was signed into law in January 2019 and requires the NRC to complete a rulemaking to establish a technology-inclusive, regulatory framework for optional use for commercial advanced nuclear reactors no later than December 2027 o
(1) ADVANCED NUCLEAR REACTORThe term advanced nuclear reactor means a nuclear fission or fusion reactor, including a prototype plant with significant improvements compared to commercial nuclear reactors under construction as of the date of enactment of this Act, 3
30-day response to SRM SRM-SECY 20-0032 SECY 20-0032 NEIMA Rulemaking Plan & Implementation
Commission Direction on Rulemaking Plan In SRM-SECY-20-0032, the Commission:
o Approved the staffs proposed approach for the rulemaking o
Directed the staff to provide:
a schedule with milestones and resource requirements to achieve publication of the final Part 53 rule by October 2024
key uncertainties impacting publication of the final rule by that date
options for Commission consideration on licensing and regulating fusion energy systems o
Directed the staff to develop and release preliminary proposed rule language intermittently, followed by public outreach and dialogue.
4 30-day response to SRM SECY**
SRM SECY 20-0032*
- (SRM 10/2/2020- ADAMS ML20276A293)
- (30-day SRM response 11/2/2020- ADAMS ML20288A240)
Current Activities
- Continuing interactions with DOE/Fusion Energy Sciences
- Continuing interactions with stakeholders such as the October 2020 public forum and NRC public meetings held on January 26 and March 30
- Regulatory framework for advanced reactors (Part 53) being developed to accommodate fusion technologies as much as possible to maintain flexibility for future
- May recommend separate rulemaking for commercial fusion facilities that would extend beyond 2024 but would be completed before 2027.
5
Developing Commission Paper
- Gathering information on fusion technologies
- Focusing on potential long-term commercial deployment o Near-term R&D facilities handled using existing requirements on a case-by-case basis
- Assessing potential risks posed by possible commercial deployment of various fusion technologies and possible regulatory approaches for commercial fusion facilities
- Coordination with Agreement States, and
- Developing and assessing options for regulatory approaches considering technical, policy, and legal issues 6
Challenge - Diversity of Designs and Hazards Fusion Technologies Magnetic Magneto-Inertial Inertial Radiological Hazards Chemical & Other Hazards Fusion Reactions
- DT
- P11B
- D3He 7
Regulatory Approaches Preliminary assessments left open the regulatory approach for commercial fusion reactors Possible approaches include treatment similar to:
o Nuclear (fission) power plants o Materials (e.g., accelerator) o Hybrid or new approach
?
8 Hazard Requirements
Regulation of Reactor Facilities
- Legal and technical framework defined in Atomic Energy Act and NRC regulations for utilization facilities (currently those using special nuclear material (SNM))
- SNM is plutonium, uranium 233, uranium enriched in the isotope 233 or in the isotope 235
- NRC historical focus on large light-water reactors
- Technical requirements on design, construction, operation and decommissioning
- Traditionally involved extensive licensing reviews
- Environmental Impact Statements
- Mandatory hearings
Assessing Fusion within Reactor Framework
- DOE safety orders
- ITER safety analyses and licensing
- DOE facilitated briefings from representatives from INL (safety analysis) and ITER (tritium controls) with more planned
- Interactions with International Atomic Energy Agency
- Interactions with National Academy of Sciences study
- Researching potential risks for variety of potential fusion technologies and designs
- Interacting with developers and other stakeholders
Feedback (Utilization Facility)
General feedback from developers/industry organizations that they do not see utilization facility model aligning with risks posed by fusion energy systems Potential ramifications associated with utilization facility model, including:
- Price Anderson Act
- Foreign ownership
- Licensing processes and mandatory hearings
- Precludes licensing by agreement states Need for approach that minimizes unnecessary regulatory burden to support developing and deploying fusion energy
Regulation of Byproduct Materials Legal and technical framework defined in Atomic Energy Act and NRC regulations Revised by Energy Policy Act of 2005 to include material made radioactive by use of a particle accelerator Guidance for various uses of byproduct material provided in NUREG-1556, Consolidated Guidance About Materials Licenses
- Volume 21, Program-Specific Guidance About Possession Licenses for Production of Radioactive Material Using an Accelerator Flexibility in safety and environmental reviews given wide range of possible applications
Specific License Requirements for Part 30
- Radionuclides (maximum possession limits)
- Tritium
- Activation Products
- Financial Assurance and Decommissioning
- Training
- Operator training
- RSO qualifications
- Facility design requirements - construction, acceptance testing, codes and standards, facility modifications, equipment qualification
Specific License Requirements for Part 30 (2)
- Radiation Safety Program
- Personnel monitoring
- Radiation monitoring
- Routine surveys
- Contamination control
- Effluent and Environmental Monitoring
- Operating and Emergency Procedures
- Procedures for safe use of radionuclides
- Security of materials
- Inspection and Maintenance
- Equipment Testing Requirements
- Attendance during operation
- Reporting Requirements
- Routine Audits
Specific License Requirements for Part 30 (3)
- Waste management
- Environmental protection regulations - Part 51
- Other Hazards - e.g., ozone, chemicals, lasers
Regulation by DOE and Agreement States Pre-commercial demonstration of fusion may be conducted under DOE oversight and requirements if the private sector fusion company performs activities at a DOE facility. The company would not be subject to NRC/Agreement State licensing or specific regulations.
Agreement States have licensed fusion research facilities. As a general matter, the byproduct material licensing of fusion-related activities have not gone beyond the requirements for possessing tritium or production of neutrons by companies, universities or other research institutions. Examples include:
- Phoenix Neutron Generators (Wisconsin)
- Laboratory for Laser Energetics (New York)
- Planned approach for Commonwealth Fusion Systems' SPARC facility (Massachusetts)
Feedback (Byproduct Material)
- General feedback from developers/industry organizations that byproduct material approach is favored
- Stakeholders view NRCs regulations in Part 20 for general radiation protection and Part 30 for handling byproduct materials as appropriate for fusion energy systems
- Possible questions on the applicability of accelerator provisions to all fusion technologies
- Agreement States have experience with licensing and inspecting R&D fusion activities that can be leveraged
Possible New or Hybrid Approaches
- Leverage existing framework (NRC, DOE, Agreement States, etc.) to extent practical,
- Risk-Informed, Performance based approach,
- Technology-Inclusive for various Fusion systems (fuel types and facility designs), and
- Graded and scaled approach that balances requirements against hazard/risk and consequences.
Hybrid Approach
- 3a-Within current framework (fragmented):
Hybrid Approach
- 3b-Within a dedicated Fusion framework (consolidated):
Feedback (Hybrid Approach)
Limited discussions with developers/industry organizations on possible hybrid approaches Could be associated with changes to the Atomic Energy Act to better accommodate fusion energy systems Opportunity to tailor regulatory requirements to specific radiological hazards for various fusion technologies Opportunity for graded approach based on potential consequences Stakeholders favored establishing a regulatory approach for Fusion systems outside the 10 CFR 53 due date of October 2024 but before October 2027.
Summary
- Design and hazard analysis will determine the scope of requirements needed for a license for the safe use of radioactive materials
- Regardless of the regulatory approach, similar information will be needed to evaluate the design and radiological hazards associated with a commercial fusion facility
- The NRC Commission will make the final decision on the regulatory framework prior to the start of any rulemaking for fusion energy systems
Path Forward
- NRC Developing Technology-Inclusive Regulatory Framework
- 10 CFR Part 53, Licensing and Regulation of Advanced Nuclear Reactors
- Decide on how to address fusion either within Part 53, within existing regulations, developing new regulations within materials realm, or combination
- Scope to also include accelerator-driven system designs
- Process to include extensive interaction with public stakeholders
Discussion
Backup Slides
Agreement State Program
- Section 274 of Atomic Energy Act Established federal/state roles Recognized States experience Promotes cooperative relationship Promotes orderly regulatory pattern Established in 1959
- First Agreement State in 1962
- Currently 39 Agreement States NRC Agreement States Specific Radioactive Material Licenses 88%
Integrated, Risk-Informed Approach Bow-Tie Risk Management Figure 28 (e.g., release of radionuclides)
(e.g., internal failures, external events)
(e.g., protective actions, siting restrictions)
(e.g., dose to public)
Fusion Technologies Magnetic Confinement Fusion Inertial Confinement Fusion
Magnetized Target Fusion Field Reversed Configuration Fusion Technologies
Stellarator Fusion Technologies